1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:05,280
Speaker 1: This incredibly corrupt private playing gift, which he is he's

2
00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:10,359
going to post through it. We've really reoriented the moral

3
00:00:10,359 --> 00:00:13,599
compass of America in which we are now envious of

4
00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,640
the petro state autocrats in the Middle East, and we're

5
00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,320
really harsh on the democratic allies that have traditionally been and.

6
00:00:22,679 --> 00:00:25,839
Speaker 2: That is a lot been allowed to happen because there

7
00:00:25,839 --> 00:00:30,879
has been no one in political leadership who has a

8
00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:37,920
ball among them, not one scrota among them, to actually

9
00:00:38,719 --> 00:00:41,960
stand up and go no. I mean, we just got

10
00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,439
an air force one how many? How many do we

11
00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:46,159
get a new plane each administration?

12
00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,000
Speaker 1: In this case, it wouldn't be because eventually it would

13
00:00:49,039 --> 00:00:51,000
be to the Trump Library.

14
00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:53,560
Speaker 2: And if you believe Donald Trump is not going to

15
00:00:53,640 --> 00:01:06,519
fly around on that bad boy, that's the most ridiculous part. Well,

16
00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,280
I'm looking forward to a little fun today here on

17
00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,799
the Bulwark platform. I'm so glad you could join us

18
00:01:13,239 --> 00:01:17,920
because my guest is a longtime buddy of mine, Sam Stein,

19
00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,120
the managing editor of The Bulwark.

20
00:01:21,239 --> 00:01:23,560
Speaker 3: Soh yeah, I kind of like you know the boss.

21
00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:31,000
Speaker 2: He is just a real good journalist, real good Washington reporter.

22
00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,400
Prior to his current assignment, he was the white House

23
00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:40,439
editor for Politico, politics editor at The Daily Beast, and

24
00:01:40,519 --> 00:01:44,200
covered national politics for huff Post, where he was one

25
00:01:44,239 --> 00:01:49,920
of the site's first political reporters. He's a frequent contributor

26
00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:54,920
on my network at MSNBC. He's a funny guy, smart guy,

27
00:01:55,159 --> 00:01:59,400
talented journalist, and I look forward to welcoming him to

28
00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:04,840
the Michael's Podcast right after this. Hey, folks, it's me,

29
00:02:05,519 --> 00:02:08,280
welcome back to the Michael Steel Podcast. Is always a

30
00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:12,280
special treat when you decide to grab yourself a nice

31
00:02:12,319 --> 00:02:14,360
little adult beverage.

32
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:14,960
Speaker 3: In a coffee cup.

33
00:02:15,159 --> 00:02:18,439
Speaker 4: Adult beverage. It's a dude.

34
00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:23,960
Speaker 2: Today. How long do you know me? Man?

35
00:02:24,039 --> 00:02:28,719
Speaker 1: Come on, man, this is that type of podcast.

36
00:02:28,759 --> 00:02:29,360
Speaker 4: I would have had.

37
00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:31,599
Speaker 2: That type of podcast every day.

38
00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:33,400
Speaker 4: You're in here.

39
00:02:33,439 --> 00:02:37,479
Speaker 2: Okay, good, it's it's called a g n T ten.

40
00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:41,960
We kind of keep it clean. Some people think it's

41
00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,759
water anyway, My buddy Sam Stein, welcome to the podcast.

42
00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:45,960
Speaker 3: Man.

43
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:46,879
Speaker 2: It's good to have you.

44
00:02:47,159 --> 00:02:48,479
Speaker 4: Great being here. What an honor.

45
00:02:49,159 --> 00:02:52,199
Speaker 2: Ah, I love it. I love it.

46
00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,599
Speaker 3: You treat me too kindly, my friend.

47
00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,039
Speaker 2: Hey, you know, before we get into politics and all

48
00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:00,039
of that stuff and news of the day and the

49
00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,439
work you're doing at the Bulwark and your your pedigree

50
00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:08,680
has been one I've actually had the pleasure to watch

51
00:03:08,719 --> 00:03:10,759
over the years when you first really kind of came

52
00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,280
on the scene and your writing, your appearances certainly on

53
00:03:16,039 --> 00:03:19,520
MSMBC Morning Joe for particularly, they love, they love having

54
00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:25,319
a little fun with Sam Stein. Yeah, right right, And

55
00:03:25,319 --> 00:03:28,000
and you're you're filling in and hosting and stuff like that.

56
00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:35,400
You have such a wide, wide background of experiences. How

57
00:03:36,039 --> 00:03:41,479
when you're looking at how you assess this period to

58
00:03:41,599 --> 00:03:44,240
do your job and you're and we were talking a

59
00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,039
little I asked a little bit before we started about

60
00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,479
the family and everything, and then you're balancing that against

61
00:03:48,479 --> 00:03:51,400
the family. Are there days when you're sitting there and

62
00:03:51,439 --> 00:03:55,280
you're working and it's like, my kid just won't believe this,

63
00:03:56,759 --> 00:04:01,000
or I gotta I gotta be on top of this because.

64
00:04:00,639 --> 00:04:02,919
Speaker 3: It's going to be important for future generations.

65
00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:07,199
Speaker 2: How how do reporters today work in an environment in

66
00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,360
which they're you know, face forward on television.

67
00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,120
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, before you could just hide behind

68
00:04:13,199 --> 00:04:14,199
not hide, but you.

69
00:04:14,199 --> 00:04:16,519
Speaker 2: Would be behind the words you wrote, right, they'd be

70
00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,519
on paper or on a site somewhere. But now you're

71
00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:22,319
a little bit you're a lot more face forward. How

72
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,000
does that change your coverage of the news and how

73
00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,600
do you report it for future generations.

74
00:04:27,959 --> 00:04:29,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a good question.

75
00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:33,680
Speaker 1: When I so, I started back in two thousand and six,

76
00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,160
two thousand and seven, and it was kind of like

77
00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,439
there was no Twitter back then. It's just you know,

78
00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:45,319
there was blogs, and you know, even online only journalism.

79
00:04:44,879 --> 00:04:50,839
Speaker 4: Was considered exotic. And I would say.

80
00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,319
Speaker 1: That it's kind of it works both ways. One is

81
00:04:54,319 --> 00:04:58,639
that things have gotten way more supercharged. Obviously, even just

82
00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,839
the news cycles a more fast. Uh, it turns over

83
00:05:02,879 --> 00:05:03,800
way more quickly.

84
00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:04,759
Speaker 2: Uh.

85
00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,680
Speaker 1: The the the impulse that you have to sort of

86
00:05:07,759 --> 00:05:11,240
never sign offline because you might miss something is way

87
00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:12,319
more pronounced than it was.

88
00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:12,839
Speaker 3: Even better.

89
00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,240
Speaker 1: On the flip side, it's it's it's a lot easier

90
00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,360
to get information and to stay on top of things, right,

91
00:05:21,399 --> 00:05:25,800
Like it's continuous. If you set up uh these information feeds,

92
00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:27,639
you can always be reading stuff.

93
00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,199
Speaker 4: So there's a bit of a back and forth on that.

94
00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,360
I do. You know, there are times where I feel like.

95
00:05:34,439 --> 00:05:38,680
Speaker 1: I've overloaded on it and I feel like through overwhelming

96
00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,920
and that I do need to sign off of it.

97
00:05:40,959 --> 00:05:42,199
Speaker 4: And I'm not trying to pretend like this.

98
00:05:42,199 --> 00:05:44,040
Speaker 1: Is like some grand burden, right, It's like, you know,

99
00:05:44,079 --> 00:05:46,120
I'm not I'm not in the minds, you know, but

100
00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,279
it is it can be a lot, and you you

101
00:05:48,319 --> 00:05:50,360
sort of you sort of recognize that it's kind of

102
00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,360
taking you over. And certainly when you have kids, like

103
00:05:53,439 --> 00:05:57,399
I do, you you fight the impulse to be on

104
00:05:57,439 --> 00:05:58,480
your phone at all hours.

105
00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,600
Speaker 4: And I'm not very good at that. I wish I

106
00:06:02,639 --> 00:06:03,319
was better at it.

107
00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,399
Speaker 1: And then on the public facing stuff, you know, that's

108
00:06:07,519 --> 00:06:12,879
that's that's a whole nother thing because back in six

109
00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,120
oh seven, you know, I wasn't on TV that much

110
00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:16,920
or anything like that. But even when I started going

111
00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,680
on TV, you know, the chances for interactions with people

112
00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,160
were more limited than they are now, and that like,

113
00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:26,240
it wasn't like, you know, you didn't see all the

114
00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,240
nastiness in your feed and and and the feedback that

115
00:06:29,319 --> 00:06:30,319
you get now.

116
00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,079
Speaker 4: The flip side of that is that I kind of

117
00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:33,040
not that.

118
00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,360
Speaker 1: I enjoy it, but I don't mind it as much

119
00:06:35,399 --> 00:06:36,160
as other people do.

120
00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,439
Speaker 4: I kind of I used to do this thing. I

121
00:06:38,439 --> 00:06:39,079
don't do it as.

122
00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:41,040
Speaker 1: Much anymore, but I used to try to find the

123
00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,560
people who were like particularly horrible to me on Twitter,

124
00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,519
and I used to try to find their phone numbers

125
00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,600
and call them up and uh and uh and just

126
00:06:48,639 --> 00:06:50,759
to be like, yo, let's talk it out, like why

127
00:06:50,759 --> 00:06:53,519
did you say that about me? Like you know, let's

128
00:06:53,519 --> 00:06:55,399
have a let's have a con just to see if

129
00:06:55,399 --> 00:06:56,759
I could like reason with these people.

130
00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:58,240
Speaker 4: Now oftentimes you couldn't.

131
00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:01,199
Speaker 1: But oftentimes they just be like, you know, I didn't

132
00:07:01,199 --> 00:07:04,560
mean to say that that was right. So I have

133
00:07:04,639 --> 00:07:06,560
like a weird impulse about it. Not to say I

134
00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,079
don't get affected by it, but.

135
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,120
Speaker 4: I encourage the reporters who are now edit.

136
00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:12,800
Speaker 1: Like you know, what I try to tell them is

137
00:07:12,839 --> 00:07:16,240
that it's hard, but you do need to recognize that

138
00:07:16,399 --> 00:07:20,319
so much of this is just theatrical, like that the

139
00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:24,120
anger that people are showing online and the nastiness and

140
00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:29,600
the harshness of the of the feedback is not actually

141
00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,040
grounded critique of your work. It's not real. So much

142
00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,120
of it's not real, and that you have to have

143
00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,319
an ability to sort of push it out and compartmentalize it.

144
00:07:40,439 --> 00:07:45,040
And I try to do that myself, and oftentimes it's

145
00:07:45,079 --> 00:07:48,319
not easy and and but that's just part of the gig.

146
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,480
Speaker 2: Yeah it is, and it's funny. I mean for me,

147
00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:57,079
you have been a journalist. You have been uh you know,

148
00:07:57,759 --> 00:08:02,639
White House editor for Political you've been at the Huffington Post,

149
00:08:02,879 --> 00:08:06,519
and now you're the managing editor at the Bulwark. So

150
00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,439
you're you've got good journalism roots, as you said, starting

151
00:08:10,439 --> 00:08:12,600
out in two thousand and six, as they used to say,

152
00:08:12,639 --> 00:08:15,519
as a cub reporter, if you will, and sort of

153
00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:21,360
growing your way through the game and you know, developing

154
00:08:21,399 --> 00:08:26,560
the skill sets, and then the environment changes where you're

155
00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:33,080
no longer the reporter, but you're the target. In twenty

156
00:08:33,279 --> 00:08:37,879
ten years after you start in the business, you're now

157
00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,000
labeled the enemy of the state. What you do is

158
00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:52,399
considered fake, and that alters the way journalists approach their stories.

159
00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,799
We went through the period where every story was basically,

160
00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,200
you know, a six hundred word article was nice two

161
00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:05,720
percent fact check, you know, and and and the and

162
00:09:05,759 --> 00:09:08,519
the real essence of what was going on and what

163
00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:13,720
was happening to the country, to the government was was

164
00:09:13,759 --> 00:09:19,120
suffused into storylines around the rightness or wrongness of what

165
00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,080
Trump just said or what some official just said or

166
00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:27,799
did how how do and when you look at the

167
00:09:27,919 --> 00:09:33,360
last couple of White House correspondence dinners, the focus now

168
00:09:33,399 --> 00:09:38,159
on the First Amendment and the the craft of journalism

169
00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,840
and leveling that up, this sense of trying to get

170
00:09:41,879 --> 00:09:46,000
back to that where you know, it's about reporting, it's

171
00:09:46,039 --> 00:09:52,279
about the accuracy of the story and the facts. Talk

172
00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,440
about what that's been like for I know, you have

173
00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:00,720
conversations with your colleagues about this. You guys swimming against

174
00:10:00,720 --> 00:10:06,320
the same tie that you know politicos like myself are in.

175
00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:12,320
You know, I I, you know, have a lot, I

176
00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,120
think a lot more freedom than you do in many

177
00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:20,720
respects because I basically don't give a ship because I've

178
00:10:20,759 --> 00:10:23,399
been in the room and I know, I know, I

179
00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,519
know what's in the room, and and so that's one piece.

180
00:10:27,639 --> 00:10:31,320
Speaker 3: But you covered the room, and that's a different that's

181
00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:32,519
a different lusture.

182
00:10:32,919 --> 00:10:35,360
Speaker 1: I guess the way there's a couple of ways to

183
00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:39,240
think about, Like one is I would rather that they,

184
00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,759
you know, attack us than ignore us, because it doesn't

185
00:10:43,759 --> 00:10:45,720
signify that you know, what we do matters.

186
00:10:45,759 --> 00:10:47,440
Speaker 4: I mean, the real problem comes when they're.

187
00:10:48,159 --> 00:10:51,440
Speaker 1: When the institution is so insignificant and so marginalized that

188
00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:52,240
they don't really care.

189
00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,879
Speaker 4: Right. Yeah, it doesn't mean that I'm it doesn't mean

190
00:10:54,879 --> 00:10:58,480
that I'm thrilled because of this day, Like, yeah, I

191
00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,639
think I think there's a fairly nasty I thank you.

192
00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:11,399
I've been trying, but you know, I don't know it.

193
00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:15,480
Speaker 1: Different outlets have to approach this in different ways, Like

194
00:11:15,639 --> 00:11:16,039
you know, if.

195
00:11:15,919 --> 00:11:17,759
Speaker 2: I are the bulwark.

196
00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:19,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, so like if I were a political it's different

197
00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:20,600
than I approached at the bull work.

198
00:11:20,639 --> 00:11:25,399
Speaker 4: But the bullwork now for us, it's like what we're

199
00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:26,759
trying to do is.

200
00:11:28,799 --> 00:11:31,120
Speaker 1: Just be I know this sounds so quaint, but it's

201
00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,279
like honest and fair, right, like honest and fair. And

202
00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,159
our view is that, you know, people need to sort

203
00:11:37,159 --> 00:11:41,759
of grapple with the stakes of what's happening, right and

204
00:11:42,039 --> 00:11:44,919
you and you shouldn't sugarcoat it and you shouldn't put

205
00:11:45,399 --> 00:11:49,080
you know, some both siderism, you know, wrapping around it.

206
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,039
Speaker 4: You you should be upfront about it.

207
00:11:51,279 --> 00:11:54,320
Speaker 1: And and that can take the form in a variety

208
00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,039
of different types of journalism. So we have like incredibly

209
00:11:58,039 --> 00:12:01,840
unbelievable essays in common Harry and analysis and like I

210
00:12:01,879 --> 00:12:05,360
don't know if he gets enough credit, but like JVL,

211
00:12:06,399 --> 00:12:08,960
like every single newsletter he writes, I think is I

212
00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,440
think he's like the voice of I'm I'm obviously byased

213
00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:13,039
but I do.

214
00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,639
Speaker 2: Think he's the voice of that you are fought on.

215
00:12:17,159 --> 00:12:18,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean he's the voice of the air and

216
00:12:18,639 --> 00:12:20,919
what he's doing, and like that's one form of it.

217
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,320
Speaker 4: And then you know what we've decided to do. You know,

218
00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:25,759
we've we've.

219
00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,360
Speaker 1: Hired a bunch of newsletter writers and what we've done

220
00:12:28,399 --> 00:12:30,720
is we've said, look, these are like, these are the

221
00:12:30,759 --> 00:12:33,679
areas where we think are the most meaningful coverage areas

222
00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,799
for the Trump administration, and we hire newsletter writers on

223
00:12:36,879 --> 00:12:39,879
those areas. So we made a determination like immigration obviously

224
00:12:40,159 --> 00:12:43,080
first and foremost, you know, the revamping of government and

225
00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,519
what Doge and Trump are trying to do, Democrats and

226
00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,120
how they get back into power right like, and then

227
00:12:49,519 --> 00:12:51,600
the online right, which is really you know, used to

228
00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:53,080
be as you know, used to be a bunch of

229
00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:55,360
weirdos and gadflies and now is the power center.

230
00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,399
Speaker 4: And yeah, yeah, they're they're basically right.

231
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,159
Speaker 1: I mean, when Laura Lumer can have a bunch of

232
00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:02,919
national security official sacked.

233
00:13:02,799 --> 00:13:03,879
Speaker 4: You take her seriously.

234
00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,559
Speaker 1: So those were like so we did it through reporting,

235
00:13:07,639 --> 00:13:10,840
But I think the through line of it has always

236
00:13:10,879 --> 00:13:14,279
been that you know, you have to be honest about

237
00:13:14,279 --> 00:13:16,200
the stakes and you have to be fair in what

238
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,399
you write, and if you can get those two metrics,

239
00:13:19,039 --> 00:13:22,279
it doesn't quite matter all that much what they call

240
00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,559
you or how they dismiss you or whatever. Now, I

241
00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:27,559
think if you're looking at it in a macro sense,

242
00:13:28,039 --> 00:13:30,679
I'm deeply troubled by the fact that there's.

243
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:32,639
Speaker 4: Been a very concerted and effective effort.

244
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:38,440
Speaker 1: To marginalize the press and diminish its impact and you know,

245
00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,679
try to convince you know, half or more of the

246
00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,360
public that you shouldn't trust what you read. I think

247
00:13:45,039 --> 00:13:47,200
the damage is very evident to that, right, Like, we

248
00:13:47,639 --> 00:13:51,440
can spend hours talking about how damaging that's been, and so,

249
00:13:51,799 --> 00:13:55,480
you know, my I hope we can reverse those trends.

250
00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:56,879
I hope we can get to a place where people

251
00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,879
understand that what they read is, you know, it's not

252
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,639
always going to be satisfactory to you, but it is

253
00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:04,720
going to be an honest attempt to get to the truth.

254
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,919
Speaker 4: But those are larger trends that they are.

255
00:14:09,279 --> 00:14:13,720
Speaker 2: They are, so so let's let's let's talk about what

256
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:19,559
you're writing about. Let's talk about the the news, what

257
00:14:19,559 --> 00:14:22,120
what's the lead, what's the lead on the bulwark as

258
00:14:22,159 --> 00:14:24,399
we get up today, and what we're doing.

259
00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,159
Speaker 3: This is early boning for me, folks.

260
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,399
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, even with the booze, I feel, uh,

261
00:14:31,759 --> 00:14:35,679
lead today has got to be trumpa in Saudi Arabian

262
00:14:35,879 --> 00:14:39,000
and cutter. I mean, I just think if you watch

263
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,120
the spectacle, there's both sort of the micro elements of it,

264
00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,039
like what are the deals that are being done? This

265
00:14:46,759 --> 00:14:49,960
incredibly corrupt private playing gift, which.

266
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,000
Speaker 4: He is he's going to post it, he just.

267
00:14:54,759 --> 00:14:57,240
Speaker 1: But then then there's like the larger picture, which is

268
00:14:57,600 --> 00:14:59,799
and this was our morning Shots newsletter lead, which is

269
00:14:59,799 --> 00:15:03,039
like this is this is a guy in Trump who

270
00:15:03,159 --> 00:15:06,840
clearly has a kind of a tyrant envy. And he's

271
00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,200
over there and he's talking about how great the marble

272
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,000
is in these palaces and how lovely you know, the

273
00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,799
Saudi Arabian government, uh you know can organize its citizenry.

274
00:15:15,799 --> 00:15:18,720
And you're like, this is not you know, you know,

275
00:15:18,799 --> 00:15:20,840
this is not sort of traditional, right, like this is

276
00:15:20,919 --> 00:15:21,759
this is a break.

277
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,720
Speaker 4: He confessed his love for MBS and said he may

278
00:15:24,759 --> 00:15:25,679
have loved him too much.

279
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:27,679
Speaker 1: And I just think if you, if you, if you

280
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:29,480
actually and occasionally you do have to do this, you

281
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:34,200
step back and say we've really reoriented the moral compass

282
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:39,000
of America in which we are now envious of the autocrats,

283
00:15:39,399 --> 00:15:43,120
the petro state autocrats in the Middle East, and we're really,

284
00:15:43,279 --> 00:15:47,240
you know, harsh on the democratic allies that have traditionally

285
00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,799
been And that's the.

286
00:15:49,679 --> 00:15:54,360
Speaker 2: Part that drives me absolutely sideways, is that we are

287
00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:58,919
not one man is and let and yet.

288
00:15:58,799 --> 00:16:01,679
Speaker 4: Well, one man who is man managed to reorient.

289
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:03,320
Speaker 3: People.

290
00:16:03,519 --> 00:16:06,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's my point. That is a love been

291
00:16:06,799 --> 00:16:10,799
allowed to happen because there has been no one in

292
00:16:10,919 --> 00:16:17,519
political leadership who has a ball among them, right, not one,

293
00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:24,360
not one scrota among them, to actually stand up and

294
00:16:24,399 --> 00:16:29,879
go no, no to the fact that you look at Trump.

295
00:16:29,919 --> 00:16:34,279
The Trump family business alone right now in the Middle

296
00:16:34,279 --> 00:16:37,720
East consists of Trump International Hotel and Tower in Dubai,

297
00:16:38,159 --> 00:16:43,279
the Trump International Golf Club in Doha, Trump Tower, Jetta

298
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:50,399
and Saudi Arabia, Trump Hotel, Oman Crypto Venture, Kushner's investment fund,

299
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:57,080
Right Live Golf right where, and of course the four

300
00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:02,320
hundred million dollar airplane we don't need, right, I mean,

301
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,559
we just got an air force one. How many how

302
00:17:04,559 --> 00:17:07,279
many do we get a new plane each administration?

303
00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,759
Speaker 1: And this is bull I mean, well, in this case,

304
00:17:09,799 --> 00:17:12,480
it wouldn't be because eventually it would be and to

305
00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:15,079
the Trump Library.

306
00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:17,720
Speaker 2: And if you believe Donald Trump is not going to

307
00:17:17,759 --> 00:17:18,839
fly around on that.

308
00:17:18,799 --> 00:17:22,119
Speaker 4: Bad boy, that's as ridiculous part. I'm just gonna put

309
00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:23,240
it in my libbary. Please.

310
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,799
Speaker 2: So why are we so damn gullible?

311
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:29,000
Speaker 4: Wild?

312
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,200
Speaker 2: I mean, you cover the Hill, you talk to these people,

313
00:17:32,279 --> 00:17:35,359
they won't talk to me as much anymore because my

314
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,559
tolerance level is zero for for the excuse making. And

315
00:17:39,599 --> 00:17:44,480
I'm just like, what, what is it? I don't understand someone.

316
00:17:46,079 --> 00:17:47,240
Speaker 4: It's not even that they're gully.

317
00:17:47,319 --> 00:17:50,680
Speaker 1: It's like, so Joe Perdicaron is our Hill guide and

318
00:17:50,799 --> 00:17:52,400
you know, like he was out there starting talking to

319
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,240
these folks, and it's like, you know, you have to

320
00:17:55,279 --> 00:17:58,599
understand in any one of these stories, the through line

321
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:03,960
is that Trump is a genius and anyone who questions

322
00:18:04,039 --> 00:18:05,839
him as suckers. And so it's not just that you're

323
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:14,200
rationalizing this this bizarre gift, it's that you are, you know,

324
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,119
mocking people who would dare question it and Trump, you know,

325
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,240
their suckers. If you don't take this now, I will

326
00:18:20,279 --> 00:18:24,119
say I've been somewhat surprised. Pleasantly, I guess that like

327
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,200
there are a few Republicans who are like this is

328
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:27,039
a little too much.

329
00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:29,279
Speaker 4: Like you know, we talked about Laura Lumer. She she

330
00:18:29,559 --> 00:18:31,720
didn't she was not a fan of it. Ted Cruz,

331
00:18:31,799 --> 00:18:33,920
Ron Johnson, they're both like, you know, this is a

332
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:34,519
bad look.

333
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,640
Speaker 1: So there is maybe we've hit a place where people

334
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,599
are discomforted enough that they're willing to talk about it,

335
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,200
but by and large they're you know, doing the usual

336
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,400
evasion saying I didn't see it, I don't know enough

337
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,160
about it, or yeah, he's smart to take it. And

338
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,279
I think what's happened is one people are just totally

339
00:18:52,599 --> 00:18:54,960
you know, petrified of Trump and the Republican Party and

340
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:56,039
they don't want to speak out about it.

341
00:18:56,079 --> 00:18:58,680
Speaker 4: And too is that he's kind of normalized the type

342
00:18:58,720 --> 00:18:59,759
of open.

343
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:04,319
Speaker 1: Corruption that people now are some people I should say,

344
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,519
are fine with. I've always i mean, we're always making

345
00:19:06,519 --> 00:19:10,880
this parallel on Nicole Alfles show yesterday, But like you know,

346
00:19:12,279 --> 00:19:15,079
Hunter Biden was doing business deals with Barisma and Ukraine

347
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,000
when his father was not in office, when he was

348
00:19:18,519 --> 00:19:20,960
out of office as vice president, and there was real

349
00:19:21,039 --> 00:19:25,000
questions about whether Barisma was using Hunter Biden to sort

350
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,640
of get in with good favor with Joe Biden, and

351
00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,880
you know whether money actually made it into Joe Biden's account.

352
00:19:32,839 --> 00:19:34,880
Speaker 2: Who was a private citizen at the time.

353
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 1: With this is a subject of an impeachment. Yeah, this

354
00:19:37,079 --> 00:19:39,079
is a subject of impeachment in quer by James Comer.

355
00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,160
In this case, it's like you don't even have I mean,

356
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,279
you mentioned the son's business deals. In this case, it's

357
00:19:44,319 --> 00:19:48,119
just a gift straight to down the Trump and he's like, yeah,

358
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,039
of course I'm accepting it, and it's going in my

359
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,200
library and you'll be a sucker to question it.

360
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,599
Speaker 4: And I am president, by the way, and it's.

361
00:19:54,400 --> 00:20:01,160
Speaker 1: Like the levels are just so distinct and yet you know.

362
00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,920
Speaker 2: But what so you just drew the parallel. And I

363
00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,200
had this debate yesterday on my show the week night,

364
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:16,359
weeknights at seven pm. It always plugging the bulwark and

365
00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:21,240
the week night that's this is the com But I

366
00:20:21,279 --> 00:20:24,000
had I was making this point the other night last

367
00:20:24,079 --> 00:20:29,720
night about the fact that we sit here and we

368
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:34,039
we look at what Donald Trump is doing and we

369
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:41,319
know I mean, you even had uh Nikki Haley tweet

370
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:46,480
out regarding the plane. If Joe Biden did this, we

371
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,279
Republicans would be losing our minds.

372
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you can say that about a lot of things.

373
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,400
Speaker 2: You know, you can say that about a lot of things.

374
00:20:55,640 --> 00:21:00,920
But the point for me is that for some reason,

375
00:21:02,759 --> 00:21:07,160
the Democrats aren't able to make the constant narrative or

376
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,759
tell the constant story of this corruption and to ingrain

377
00:21:11,799 --> 00:21:14,480
in it. I mean, when you stop and think about it,

378
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,039
Hunter Biden during the time that Joe Biden was in

379
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:24,559
office was mentioned covered over one hundred and thirty thousand

380
00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:30,160
times during that period, that constant boom boom. Let me

381
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,960
tell you how bad this guy is. The Biden crime family,

382
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:40,200
you know, Barisma, this laptop, that, et cetera. Republicans are

383
00:21:40,319 --> 00:21:43,680
very and I guess I guess bad actors acting in

384
00:21:43,799 --> 00:21:50,119
bad faith are really good at perpetuating the badness, right,

385
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:51,160
In other words.

386
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 4: It goes beyond it.

387
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,640
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, it's like the Hillary Clinton email thing, right,

388
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,200
it's the same exact stuff. They use signal to discuss

389
00:21:58,319 --> 00:22:00,799
worklins And you're like, wait, do you remember when but

390
00:22:01,759 --> 00:22:03,680
this is kind of a yeah.

391
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:04,680
Speaker 4: They call this the.

392
00:22:04,559 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 1: Hack gap, right, right, It's like you just this is

393
00:22:09,319 --> 00:22:11,599
the way it's it's traditionally been. Now, I do think

394
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,319
Democrats are trying to make an issue out of this.

395
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,160
One thing that has always been a kind of a

396
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,400
problem for the party during the Trump era is that

397
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,720
there's just a lot of shit happening. You spend a

398
00:22:26,759 --> 00:22:30,079
lot of time going on one controversy and then suddenly

399
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,839
he pops up and there's another thing. And you know,

400
00:22:33,799 --> 00:22:37,720
I'm not saying like, well, whatever, you have to end

401
00:22:37,799 --> 00:22:40,799
up choosing which ones you think you choose, you gotta choose.

402
00:22:41,519 --> 00:22:45,519
We sort of handed them something that's pretty easy to choose.

403
00:22:46,519 --> 00:22:51,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we'll talk about that. We don't take a

404
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,400
quick break with Sam Stein. My man, I've gotten a

405
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,599
note Sam a long time now. I think I think

406
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,480
I've known you since before you were certainly before your kids,

407
00:23:01,519 --> 00:23:02,599
but before you got married.

408
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. When did you become chairman?

409
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,640
Speaker 2: Two thousand and nine.

410
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,279
Speaker 4: I got married that year, so yeah.

411
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,960
Speaker 2: Right around around that time. So but yeah, and he

412
00:23:19,039 --> 00:23:23,440
hasn't aged a bit, folks.

413
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,559
Speaker 4: Not one day like Benjamin buttoning this thing.

414
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:30,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, folks, we'll be right back right after this. All right, folks,

415
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,119
let's take a quick break from the discussion and talk

416
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,240
about protecting yourself in the digital world we live in,

417
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:42,079
because whether you're scrolling the news, booking, travel or doing research.

418
00:23:42,759 --> 00:23:45,920
You deserve online privacy that works as hard as you do.

419
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,759
That's why my team uses a surf Shark VPN for

420
00:23:49,839 --> 00:23:54,359
this podcast. It encrypts your Internet activity, keeping your private

421
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,119
data away from trackers, hackers, and anyone else trying to snoop.

422
00:23:59,839 --> 00:24:04,319
You can even safely browse on public Wi Fi at airports, hotels,

423
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,079
coffee shops, you name it. And here's a game changer.

424
00:24:08,559 --> 00:24:15,480
With just one subscription, serf Shark secures all your devices laptops, phones, tablets,

425
00:24:15,759 --> 00:24:19,960
your covered. Plus, if you're traveling or living abroad, serf

426
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:25,279
Shark lets you break through GOEO restrictions so you can

427
00:24:25,319 --> 00:24:29,039
still catch your favorite shows, news and sports just like

428
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,000
you're back at home. And let's not forget serf Shark search,

429
00:24:33,599 --> 00:24:38,200
no ads, no tracking, just clean private searching. So here's

430
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,000
the deal. Head over to serfshark dot com, slash steal

431
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,200
or use the code steal at checkout, and you'll get

432
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:50,279
four extra months of serf Shark VPN absolutely free, and yes,

433
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:55,039
it comes with a thirty day money back guarantee. Serf SHARKVPN,

434
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,279
It's time to take control of your online security serfshark

435
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,039
dot com slash s.

436
00:25:01,039 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 4: T E E l E.

437
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: Or code Steele at checkout for four extra months of

438
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:11,799
surf Shark DPN for free surf shark dot com slash Steele.

439
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,880
Welcome back, everybody, Michael Steele Podcast, Hanging in with my

440
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,279
buddy Sam Stein, who's taking a moment from all the

441
00:25:18,319 --> 00:25:21,920
work he's doing as the managing editor over at our platform,

442
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:28,359
The Bulwark. So, Sam, you had, uh, the Supreme Court

443
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,200
has been in the news a lot for a lot

444
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,599
of different reasons, largely related to cases that are that

445
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,960
are flowing through the system. But you had the death

446
00:25:39,319 --> 00:25:47,839
last week of Justice David Souter, appointed by George Bush,

447
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,559
and certainly he was no longer on the court, but

448
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,640
it got a lot of folks I think thinking about,

449
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,359
you know, the style of the man relative to the

450
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,920
changes in the court, what the court of the future

451
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:09,279
looks like. Are you hearing or seeing any movement towards

452
00:26:09,279 --> 00:26:13,440
in either this administration or future administration's Democrat or Republican

453
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,200
A relook a redo of the Supreme Court anyway?

454
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:18,559
Speaker 4: Not really.

455
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:20,839
Speaker 1: I mean there was talk early on in the Biden

456
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,200
air of like trying to plow forward with Supreme court firms,

457
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:29,480
and you remember Biden put together, which is like classically

458
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:34,759
no thanks. I think it would be worth doing, because

459
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,440
you know, what we've ended up with is a very

460
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,759
political body, and there's no incentive to depoliticize it unless

461
00:26:42,759 --> 00:26:45,960
both parties jump into those waters together. What struck me

462
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,599
about the Pseudon news is just seeing like he retired

463
00:26:48,599 --> 00:26:49,920
at what sixty nine years old?

464
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 4: Was it something like that?

465
00:26:51,279 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: I mean, you imagine like that wasn't that long ago,

466
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,039
but like, there is no incentive for anyone to step

467
00:26:57,079 --> 00:27:02,079
down now unless your party's controlling power. So I happen

468
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,200
to be interested in some court reforms, but in terms

469
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:11,359
of the political in political movement behind them, it seems

470
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,839
pretty much dead right now.

471
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:18,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and I agree with that. I too, am

472
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:23,519
very supportive of some court reforms. I largely think that

473
00:27:23,559 --> 00:27:26,960
the Congress needs to impose ethics requirements, as they do

474
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:31,359
in all other federal benches. I think, you know, I'm

475
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,559
not sure about tinkering with the number, not wholly convinced

476
00:27:35,559 --> 00:27:37,359
that that changes too much of anything.

477
00:27:37,759 --> 00:27:40,039
Speaker 3: But I love the idea of term limits.

478
00:27:40,319 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 2: I love the idea of okay, you're on the court

479
00:27:43,279 --> 00:27:46,079
for sixteen years. We can do the math to figure

480
00:27:46,079 --> 00:27:49,720
out the right sweet spot for that, sure, But this

481
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,559
idea of a life appointment absent some type of type

482
00:27:54,559 --> 00:27:57,200
of ethical safeguards.

483
00:27:58,240 --> 00:27:59,079
Speaker 3: To me is.

484
00:28:00,799 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 2: Has contributed to the rot and the distrust that has

485
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,359
grown and the lack of it, the lack of the

486
00:28:08,559 --> 00:28:11,319
independence I think for the court well.

487
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 4: And there's also the court.

488
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,319
Speaker 1: This is the question of like, you know, should you

489
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,400
do tumor limits and then allow each each president, you know,

490
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,480
a certain number of appointments to make sure that everyone

491
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,519
feels like they have buy into the system. You know,

492
00:28:23,839 --> 00:28:26,839
should you do age limits that's a little bit more complicated.

493
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,720
And then of course, you know there's other reforms that

494
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,839
you should consider. Now conservatives are kind of running over

495
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,799
to them, but like national injunctions for instance, was you know,

496
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,039
it's funny to see Stephen Miller and the gang go

497
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,480
crazy over these district judges having these national injunctions, and

498
00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:43,880
it's like, yeah, but this was working in your favor

499
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:48,319
under Biden, right, like all the like, you know, they

500
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,519
put that one on us too, a student loan relief,

501
00:28:50,519 --> 00:28:53,720
put that on ice And so you know, there's a

502
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,960
whole host of different reforms that probably need to be

503
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,000
seriously addressed. But there's just no political capital to do

504
00:29:01,079 --> 00:29:05,160
it because any party in power inherently would either look

505
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:09,799
like it's exercising an incredible power grab or they you know,

506
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:10,480
happen to.

507
00:29:10,599 --> 00:29:13,119
Speaker 4: You know, not want to do it at that point

508
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:13,480
in time.

509
00:29:14,279 --> 00:29:16,839
Speaker 2: So let's go kick a little ass. What what do

510
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,119
you think the Democrats need to do right now?

511
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,039
Speaker 3: You got you got ass?

512
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: Donkey, I get it.

513
00:29:24,119 --> 00:29:28,839
Speaker 4: I've heard better jokes. I would say one. Well, I

514
00:29:28,839 --> 00:29:29,759
don't know where do you come down.

515
00:29:29,839 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: It's like there's there's the debate right now where it's like,

516
00:29:32,079 --> 00:29:34,279
you know, they need to moderate and they should therefore

517
00:29:34,319 --> 00:29:35,640
adopt moderate policies.

518
00:29:36,359 --> 00:29:38,599
Speaker 4: Or is it that they need to show their sort

519
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:39,000
of you.

520
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:43,599
Speaker 1: Know, generationally changing or maybe they don't need to do

521
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,079
anything at all because you know, it's always going to

522
00:29:46,119 --> 00:29:48,519
be a referendum in the in the midterms and look

523
00:29:48,559 --> 00:29:51,920
at these special election results to do great. I kind

524
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,440
of jump between a few of those. And before I

525
00:29:54,519 --> 00:29:58,759
give you my answer, I one to hear yours. So

526
00:29:59,559 --> 00:30:03,839
if you know anything about me, uh and the first.

527
00:30:03,559 --> 00:30:09,799
Speaker 2: Right, sorry about I'm going to I'm going to redefine

528
00:30:09,799 --> 00:30:13,119
the edge and I'm going to do everything I can

529
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:14,079
to cut you with it.

530
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 3: And that's that's what the Democrats do.

531
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 2: Not have a propensity towards a political fight, so you.

532
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 4: Just say slash.

533
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:32,359
Speaker 2: I say, I say, look what I did in when

534
00:30:32,359 --> 00:30:35,240
I was a county chairman, out outgunned here in Prince

535
00:30:35,279 --> 00:30:40,960
George's county fifty eight thousand Republicans to eight hundred thousand citizens. Right,

536
00:30:41,039 --> 00:30:44,200
what I did is state party chairman, outgunned two to

537
00:30:44,279 --> 00:30:46,200
one in Democratic registration.

538
00:30:46,839 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 3: Yet I got a governor.

539
00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:51,839
Speaker 2: Elected in twenty in two thousand and two that happened

540
00:30:51,839 --> 00:30:52,519
to be on the ballot.

541
00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:54,039
Speaker 3: That may have helped, may not have helped.

542
00:30:54,039 --> 00:30:58,039
Speaker 2: But we had a plan, and the plan was to fight, right,

543
00:30:58,559 --> 00:31:04,400
was to fight, to to lean into the opposition. When

544
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,599
I got to the R and C, it was no different. Outnumbered, outgunned,

545
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:13,720
a seventy percent plus approval for Barack Obama. Our brand

546
00:31:13,799 --> 00:31:16,359
was in the toilet. We were hemorrhaging voters and money.

547
00:31:17,319 --> 00:31:20,440
I had a lot of internal fighting. You know. The

548
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,039
political establishment didn't like me or trust me, even though

549
00:31:23,079 --> 00:31:25,559
they knew me. Probably that's why they didn't like me

550
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:30,720
or trust me. And I was not I was not

551
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,079
a person who play well with others.

552
00:31:34,759 --> 00:31:36,799
Speaker 1: Well, let me talk, let's let's stop there everything, because

553
00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:39,000
this is this is the most interesting.

554
00:31:38,599 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 4: Parallel, which is two thousand and nine and twenty five, right, like,

555
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:46,200
is there is this.

556
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,799
Speaker 1: What were you see like a lot of discontent among

557
00:31:48,839 --> 00:31:51,759
Democrats The party is not very popular, but if I

558
00:31:51,799 --> 00:31:53,720
remember in two thousand and nine, their public party wasn't

559
00:31:53,799 --> 00:31:56,880
very popular either. Nope, and there's a lot of discontent.

560
00:31:57,359 --> 00:31:59,640
The Tea Party was on the rise, and there's a

561
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:01,440
lot of questions about whether they were going to fumble

562
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,200
the ball because of it, right, and it turned out

563
00:32:04,279 --> 00:32:08,079
it was like, hey, obviously historic election for the party.

564
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:13,319
Speaker 4: I'm I'm kind of interesting towards this being similar to that.

565
00:32:13,599 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: But maybe that was because of Obamacare and that was

566
00:32:17,599 --> 00:32:19,240
a unique situation or maybe not.

567
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but you can have Obamacare, but if you

568
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,119
don't define what Obamacare means to people, if you don't,

569
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,160
if you don't look, it's a parallel thing. I've got

570
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,000
to know what we're going for, what we're doing, and

571
00:32:32,039 --> 00:32:33,960
I've got to be able to convince my team this

572
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,000
is the way to go, and that was very hard

573
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,720
to do. I had a lot of people in January

574
00:32:38,839 --> 00:32:41,519
twenty ten, Karl Rover. I'll never forget the op ed

575
00:32:41,599 --> 00:32:44,000
he did in the Wall Street Journal basically lighten my

576
00:32:44,119 --> 00:32:47,039
ass up. And I don't know what I'm doing. I'm

577
00:32:47,079 --> 00:32:49,720
an awful chairman. We'd be lucky if we get thirty

578
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,720
seats out of this election. Well we got sixty three, bitch, right,

579
00:32:54,079 --> 00:32:56,160
and I picked up almost one thousand.

580
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,279
Speaker 4: Have you ever brought that up to him directly?

581
00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:58,519
Speaker 1: Oh?

582
00:32:58,599 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 2: He and I have laughed about it.

583
00:33:01,319 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 3: Carl is a good guy.

584
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,039
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I've got no beef of Carls

585
00:33:05,559 --> 00:33:10,799
with me. But but you know, a thousand state legislative races.

586
00:33:10,839 --> 00:33:12,960
You know how we got those? I focused on and

587
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,119
no one in the party were focused on winning state

588
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,079
legislative races. Right, You want to change the game, change

589
00:33:19,119 --> 00:33:22,200
the game? Where the game is changed? How do you

590
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,039
you know if you want the how do you how

591
00:33:24,079 --> 00:33:30,200
do you get control of the courts congressional districts? How

592
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,319
do you get control of congressional districts? You draw the lines,

593
00:33:33,519 --> 00:33:35,160
and who draws the lines.

594
00:33:35,079 --> 00:33:36,039
Speaker 4: Say legislatures.

595
00:33:36,079 --> 00:33:36,559
Speaker 2: There you go.

596
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: Well, there's some state supreme courts that can have some

597
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:40,240
say but yes, I hear you.

598
00:33:40,359 --> 00:33:42,640
Speaker 2: But what I'm just saying is you've got to have

599
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,279
You've got to have a forward looking strategy. Now, look,

600
00:33:45,519 --> 00:33:47,880
you can't. You can't account for every outcome and the

601
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,079
behavior of every politician and gets elected. Sure, I mean,

602
00:33:51,119 --> 00:33:52,920
we're all sitting here looking at some of the folks

603
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:54,599
that we've worked with over the years ago. Who the

604
00:33:54,599 --> 00:33:58,279
hell is that person in the land of Trump? But

605
00:33:58,279 --> 00:34:01,359
but the reality of it is, that's for me, Sam,

606
00:34:01,559 --> 00:34:03,720
the way the Democrats need to sort of look at

607
00:34:03,759 --> 00:34:08,159
this is what's the multi layered strategy here? Right?

608
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 3: Number one?

609
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 2: But then what is your messaging? What was my messaging

610
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:17,199
with twenty ten? Fire Pelosi? Right right? You want your

611
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:21,280
garbage picked up? Fire Pelosi? You want to change the Congress?

612
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:22,039
Fire Pelosi?

613
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

614
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: And see that's where it might be different. I don't

615
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,079
think Mike Johnson is that type. I mean, this is

616
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,039
not a Mike Johnson election, right.

617
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 2: This is it. It's Mike Donald Trump an the other

618
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,360
things that will substitute for Mike Johnson.

619
00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 4: Right right? You know, I mean I I my sense

620
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:37,280
is that.

621
00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: The question was where do Democrats stand and what should

622
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:47,000
they do? I think honestly they need to find one

623
00:34:47,079 --> 00:34:49,880
or two things which resonate with the public and it

624
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,280
could be honestly, could be the corruption right like, that

625
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,480
could be it it worked that to works them in

626
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,920
six it was a corruption thing and then.

627
00:34:59,679 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 4: Kind of hammer away.

628
00:35:01,559 --> 00:35:04,199
Speaker 1: And yes, there's gonna be divisions in the party over

629
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:09,440
like ideology and philosophy and what policies to emphasize.

630
00:35:10,039 --> 00:35:12,199
Speaker 4: But if you can say Donald Trump.

631
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: Is corrupt and Donald Trump has not done anything to

632
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,159
make your life meaningfully better.

633
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,119
Speaker 4: With costs, so I think that's a winning formula.

634
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:25,119
Speaker 2: That works better than a conversation around birthright citizenship in

635
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:26,079
monuments clause.

636
00:35:26,119 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 4: Except yes, I mean yes it does.

637
00:35:29,559 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 1: Now they the emolument's clause does get into the corruption stuff.

638
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,159
But an argument over birth rate, here's the thing I

639
00:35:39,199 --> 00:35:41,440
think you can argue. I think you can argue the

640
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,400
morality of the immigration stuff totally fine. I think what

641
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,039
you say is I'm not I'm not a strategist, so

642
00:35:48,039 --> 00:35:50,000
so no one should be listening to me, be like

643
00:35:50,039 --> 00:35:52,480
that's the guy. Now, just I'm just throwing on an

644
00:35:52,519 --> 00:35:56,960
idea here. But the birthright citizenship, the deportation stuff, that's

645
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,840
a form of corruption, all right. It's a corruption against

646
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,679
the constitution. And if you can frame it like that,

647
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:05,559
then you can kind of sweep it into one.

648
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 2: I like that frame. What what about the economy We're

649
00:36:09,639 --> 00:36:11,559
I've been saying for a number of months. I mean,

650
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,960
you know, I was I'm minored in economics, and so

651
00:36:15,039 --> 00:36:17,760
I know a little bit of our numbers work and

652
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,039
how they flow. And I've been saying for a few months,

653
00:36:20,079 --> 00:36:24,000
along with a few other folks, that the impact of

654
00:36:24,039 --> 00:36:27,360
what Trump has done, even though he's trying to clean

655
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,519
up on all nine through twenty right now, right, has

656
00:36:31,599 --> 00:36:35,400
already been set in motion and will be realized at

657
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,480
the end of this month, beginning of June, and it's

658
00:36:38,519 --> 00:36:41,719
starting to come come into focus. We'll see a lot

659
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:46,800
of folks. How does the economic piece play rather that messaging?

660
00:36:47,199 --> 00:36:51,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, So, I mean, look, what is it. It's May fourteenth,

661
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:52,559
twenty twenty five.

662
00:36:52,639 --> 00:36:54,280
Speaker 4: We have so much time.

663
00:36:55,079 --> 00:36:58,039
Speaker 1: We have so much time, so we don't just we

664
00:36:58,159 --> 00:37:00,320
just don't know where we're going to be economic. But

665
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,079
let's say in theory the elections were in like six months,

666
00:37:03,679 --> 00:37:04,840
then yeah, I think it would.

667
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 4: I think there's a lot to run on here.

668
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,079
Speaker 1: If you're a Democrat, it's it's you know, it's all

669
00:37:10,119 --> 00:37:12,960
self inflicted damage that he's created. You can easily say,

670
00:37:13,039 --> 00:37:16,400
we we handed him and helped protest, but like we

671
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,719
handed him a pretty good economy with low inflation, high

672
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:25,559
low unemployment GDP moving the direction, and he went and

673
00:37:25,599 --> 00:37:28,400
took a hammer to it. And that's factually true. Like

674
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,400
he just the tariffs were self inflicted. The fact that

675
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,599
he had to reverse on them is not an act

676
00:37:33,639 --> 00:37:36,119
of negotiating genius.

677
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 4: Is not like the art of the ill.

678
00:37:37,559 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 1: It's just he admitted he was wrong. And you know,

679
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:45,760
going out and firing you know, tens of thousands of

680
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:47,800
workers and these are, yes, they're government in place, but

681
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,800
they're also you know, blue collar people who man your parks,

682
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,760
who work in and around government buildings, who research diseases

683
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,679
and make sure your water's clean and all that stuff.

684
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,760
That like he fired them, right, and that has a

685
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,000
real impact. I mean, like you can say that the

686
00:38:06,039 --> 00:38:08,480
economy is not in a better spot despite what he

687
00:38:08,519 --> 00:38:10,599
wants to say, and he promised you fix it on

688
00:38:10,679 --> 00:38:12,920
day one, and does it feel fixed to you? And

689
00:38:13,039 --> 00:38:15,360
you can look at the consumer sentiments like the University

690
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,039
of Michigan consumer sentiment data, then people don't think the

691
00:38:18,079 --> 00:38:19,960
economy is going in the right direction. They're fearful about

692
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,199
where the economy is going so again, we're very very

693
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,119
very very very far away. We don't know what the

694
00:38:25,119 --> 00:38:26,719
economy is going to look like in a year from now,

695
00:38:27,679 --> 00:38:30,360
but there is fodder for Democrats here for sure.

696
00:38:31,159 --> 00:38:33,599
Speaker 2: So before I let you go, I want to have

697
00:38:33,599 --> 00:38:36,719
a little fun with you. So you mentioned her.

698
00:38:36,639 --> 00:38:38,840
Speaker 3: A little bit earlier, a little Laura Lumer.

699
00:38:39,199 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 2: You guys had a little little Twitter Twitter back and forth.

700
00:38:43,159 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, what was that about.

701
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 3: You?

702
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,559
Speaker 4: Well, so I don't think she went after me. I

703
00:38:50,599 --> 00:38:53,000
didn't get lumored. Let's just be I want to be very.

704
00:38:53,079 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 2: You did not get lumored. You're just not.

705
00:38:55,639 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 4: So what's happening here is this is the backstory, will So.

706
00:39:00,199 --> 00:39:03,559
Speaker 2: Who he asked the question, is Laura Lumer for sale?

707
00:39:03,679 --> 00:39:04,039
Speaker 4: Okay?

708
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 1: I was posting an article we reported from Will Summer

709
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,840
about whether or not Laura Lumer's for sale? And by

710
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,480
that we mean there's accusations flying around that she's running

711
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,840
some sort of payola scheme because suddenly she's tweeting about.

712
00:39:18,119 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 4: Venezuelan oil, Like, where did that come from?

713
00:39:22,119 --> 00:39:26,679
Speaker 1: I haven't really tweeted about that ever, And this was

714
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,920
not an accusation I made. Kaylee means a top Robert F.

715
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,800
Kennedy advisor whose sister is being nominated for surgeon General,

716
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:39,039
has publicly accused Laura Lumer of attacking his sister because

717
00:39:39,039 --> 00:39:43,239
she's paid for by someone he hasn't specified, but she

718
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,960
has been pretty viciously attacking Casey means his sister, And

719
00:39:47,039 --> 00:39:50,639
so Lumer denied it to Will Summer. She says she's

720
00:39:50,639 --> 00:39:52,599
not paid for her work. She's just out there doing

721
00:39:52,639 --> 00:39:55,599
the vetting that everyone needs to do. But this is

722
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,119
like getting a lot of buzz in Maga circles. And

723
00:39:58,159 --> 00:40:00,800
Will noticed it, and he did the reporting. And then

724
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,679
I tweeted the article innocently enough, as a good editor does,

725
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,159
trying to promote the work of his reporters, and.

726
00:40:06,119 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 2: I got lumured.

727
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,599
Speaker 4: I got lumered for it.

728
00:40:11,599 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 2: It was so funny. It's just it's just the way,

729
00:40:15,159 --> 00:40:18,280
you know, she just sort of came at it, and you're, like.

730
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 1: Typically and typically understated fashion, Yes.

731
00:40:22,039 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 2: Right, exactly exactly, you know, your misogynistic I you know what,

732
00:40:27,559 --> 00:40:33,960
I can't have my own companies. It's just it does

733
00:40:34,119 --> 00:40:36,320
matter who pays you.

734
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:37,960
Speaker 1: Yes, if you're paid for And this is the other thing, though,

735
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,119
there's like a pretty lengthy history now people in this

736
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,199
sphere getting paid to post and so there's not like

737
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,199
it's not like this is like non contextualized.

738
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:52,679
Speaker 2: I thought she protested a bit too much and went on,

739
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,400
had had to explain way too much and just sort

740
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:57,920
of couch it. And when you look, you.

741
00:40:57,800 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 4: May have read similarly to some people here.

742
00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 2: Yes, I was like, okay, all right, see in any

743
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,719
other world to go please and move on. But no,

744
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,480
you got to go into the whole. If you can't

745
00:41:10,519 --> 00:41:13,199
beat them, make them join, I mean, make them like

746
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:17,079
you quotes. I'm like, please spare me, all right. Well,

747
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,159
Sam Stein, you keep doing you boo.

748
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,599
Speaker 4: Thank you, mister chairman, Thank you very much. I'll always do.

749
00:41:24,599 --> 00:41:26,280
Speaker 3: It well, my friend, you do it well.

750
00:41:26,599 --> 00:41:28,079
Speaker 2: It's a real treat to spend a little bit of

751
00:41:28,079 --> 00:41:30,519
time with you, to get some insights on on the

752
00:41:30,559 --> 00:41:32,119
stories you're you're writing, and.

753
00:41:32,199 --> 00:41:32,760
Speaker 4: Thank you man.

754
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,559
Speaker 1: You're gonna be I know you're gonna be insufferable this

755
00:41:35,679 --> 00:41:38,119
fall because of the commanders and how good they are,

756
00:41:38,159 --> 00:41:40,199
and it's gonna be so annoying, you know.

757
00:41:40,199 --> 00:41:43,039
Speaker 2: I'm gonna tell you, yes, it will be. It's almost

758
00:41:43,119 --> 00:41:48,159
damn near forty years that we need the party about something. Shit. Uh,

759
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:53,239
it's been standing back and yeah, we're getting. We're getting,

760
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,280
And I know it's gonna be branded by whoever puts

761
00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:58,760
up the most money to help build it.

762
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 1: It's gonna be it's gonna be Maga Stadium or something.

763
00:42:02,119 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 3: Right, Oh God help me on that one.

764
00:42:04,039 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 2: But I would love if they could keep the name

765
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:11,599
RFK Stadium. They probably won't, but it's just from that, yes,

766
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,400
having it back in DC. I say that as a

767
00:42:15,519 --> 00:42:18,639
native Washingtonian, not as the former Lieutenant Government Bryan where

768
00:42:18,679 --> 00:42:20,239
the commanders currently play.

769
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:23,039
Speaker 1: Uh, there's some old footage, isn't there some old footage

770
00:42:23,079 --> 00:42:24,480
of you at our Yeah.

771
00:42:25,159 --> 00:42:28,599
Speaker 2: The old Reins game. Yeah, I'm in the real baby

772
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:30,679
wearing my member's only jacket.

773
00:42:32,519 --> 00:42:35,079
Speaker 4: That's awesome. Well when that when it happens, let's catch

774
00:42:35,079 --> 00:42:35,360
a game.

775
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,320
Speaker 2: Okay, you got it. My friend Sam Stein, he is

776
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,639
the one and only the managing editor for the Bulwarks.

777
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:45,039
Always a pleasure in my friend to have you on board, folks,

778
00:42:45,039 --> 00:42:47,119
Thank you for spending time with us. You know, I

779
00:42:47,119 --> 00:42:49,440
love it when you did that voodoo of downloads and

780
00:42:49,639 --> 00:42:51,199
likes and all that good stuff. It makes all the

781
00:42:51,199 --> 00:42:54,719
people at the bull Wok very happy, especially and uh,

782
00:42:57,119 --> 00:43:01,159
this is my boss, right here. Come on, you guys,

783
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,480
you guys got to pay attention. And right, let's do it.

784
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:09,280
Let's do it. And remember what I always tell you folks,

785
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,079
don't play but stupid. Okay, because you become stupid. So

786
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:15,199
there we are, all right, Take care,