WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.160 --> 00:00:05.360 Leaning a light. Man like this, Man, you letting butterfly 2 00:00:05.480 --> 00:00:07.639 flapping his wing big down in a force. Man, it 3 00:00:07.719 --> 00:00:11.080 gonna cause a tree fold, letting five thousand miles away. Man, 4 00:00:11.560 --> 00:00:12.240 nobody see it. 5 00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:19.079 Nobody else. Let you see what you don't need? No, man, 6 00:00:19.280 --> 00:00:25.160 don't you follow? And you got back that? Man? Don't 7 00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:26.280 black a d on Panama? 8 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:27.839 Man, you don't don't matter? 9 00:00:27.879 --> 00:00:29.719 Man anyway? 10 00:00:36.799 --> 00:00:40.039 All right? William from in soel Riots Studios. How you 11 00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:44.679 doing man? Pretty good? Are you? Yeah? I'm doing well. 12 00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:47.560 I mean I realized dating your podcast in the first 13 00:00:47.600 --> 00:00:49.920 twenty seconds, UH is poor form. 14 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:53.799 But if you're wondering less, sir. This is the day 15 00:00:53.960 --> 00:00:55.159 that the chat feature. 16 00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:57.560 On x Scott pushed out, which means that UH, as 17 00:00:57.640 --> 00:01:01.520 someone whose job it is to basically coordinate things via 18 00:01:01.960 --> 00:01:04.959 dms on Twitter, today has been a disaster for me. 19 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:09.120 Nothing has gone according to plan. But nonetheless are here 20 00:01:09.560 --> 00:01:13.400 so anyway, man, Obviously this was set up by our 21 00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:14.879 mutual friends at Antelope Hill. 22 00:01:15.000 --> 00:01:17.799 But who are you and what do you do? Who 23 00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:18.040 am I? 24 00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:18.680 And what do I do? 25 00:01:19.359 --> 00:01:24.319 My name is William Dale? About just docs myself and 26 00:01:24.799 --> 00:01:27.840 I make board games. I've been making board games for 27 00:01:29.319 --> 00:01:35.000 I guess seven eight years now professionally, and before that 28 00:01:35.400 --> 00:01:40.840 I was a commercial illustrator. I guess we'll get into 29 00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:42.560 that story at some point. That it all came to 30 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:46.680 a screechy halt in twenty sixteen when I backed their 31 00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:47.760 own candidate for president. 32 00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:52.680 And that's sort of an interesting thing. I'm not really 33 00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:56.959 a board games guy, but I am in areas that 34 00:01:57.159 --> 00:01:59.959 are kissing cousins, right, Like I sort of grew up 35 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:02.079 as a you know, a war gamer. You're playing a 36 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:04.920 lot of tabletop RPGs and there's a lot of crossover, right, 37 00:02:05.040 --> 00:02:09.360 you sort of see the same treatment happening, and uh, 38 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:16.000 those faces got just absolutely overrun with like horrible progressive 39 00:02:16.080 --> 00:02:19.280 types sort of at the same time, slightly earlier even 40 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:22.080 than we saw with you know, gaming, which obviously gamer 41 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:24.280 Gate is how a lot of people ended up, you know, 42 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:26.479 by getting pushed out of mainstream politics. 43 00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:31.520 I think they were always there, I think I think 44 00:02:31.719 --> 00:02:36.960 I think the election brought them out as well, one 45 00:02:37.039 --> 00:02:38.680 hundred percent. It brought it out. 46 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:42.240 And you know, I was giving a teenager at the time, 47 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:45.439 and you know, I had always been interested in kind 48 00:02:45.479 --> 00:02:49.319 of nerdy at nerdy whatever that means, you know, activities, Uh, 49 00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:54.000 and obviously to me, in my mind, if there were politics, 50 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:59.199 it was sort of like nineties liberal politics, like generally 51 00:02:59.319 --> 00:03:04.159 be nice to people, you know, authority is generally negative. 52 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:07.439 But it was all pretty background stuff, right, I mean, 53 00:03:07.479 --> 00:03:08.879 that's a very general thing to say. 54 00:03:09.000 --> 00:03:12.360 But I guess I guess if you're in high school 55 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:13.919 during the nineties, I suppose that's true. 56 00:03:14.599 --> 00:03:17.400 I'm talking about in the in the mid two thousands, 57 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:19.719 like that was the sort of politics that you saw, 58 00:03:20.319 --> 00:03:23.960 like I'm thinking about like uh like or like sort 59 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:26.520 of before fifth edition D and D, you know, for 60 00:03:26.719 --> 00:03:27.639 for rough context. 61 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:33.080 Okay, okay, I lost track of D and D after 62 00:03:33.159 --> 00:03:35.520 second edition. I just just completely ignored it. 63 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:36.479 You didn't miss much. 64 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:42.240 All I have to say about that is some uh 65 00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:45.360 faco as cancer and uh roll to hit tables are 66 00:03:45.639 --> 00:03:47.400 the way to go. It's the way God it came 67 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:49.439 to be played. It's a fair enough man. 68 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:52.280 So obviously you you you started out on your own, 69 00:03:52.439 --> 00:03:55.680 what almost ten years ago? Now, Uh, do you want 70 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:59.039 to just briefly summarize your your cancelation. We don't need 71 00:03:59.080 --> 00:04:00.159 to get into the details, but. 72 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:10.800 Oh the cancelation. Sure, yeah, well, I guess you might 73 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:15.080 not remember in twenty twelve when you had during when 74 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:19.839 elections happened. So me working as a commercial illustrator, right, 75 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:23.279 like a freelance I have. I had representation, but you 76 00:04:23.360 --> 00:04:25.399 know they only shot me like a project like three 77 00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:28.160 or four times a year if that. So I'm like 78 00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:30.839 completely on my own, like on the hands and dribble 79 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:35.759 and on social media just posting things like to get 80 00:04:35.800 --> 00:04:38.160 the attention of people. And one really way a good 81 00:04:38.199 --> 00:04:40.959 way to do that back then is like if a 82 00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:44.360 really popular franchise came out, like Breaking Bad comes out, 83 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:46.639 you do some Breaking Bad fan art and people will 84 00:04:46.839 --> 00:04:49.680 spread it around because it's a franchise they like. And 85 00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:52.800 during an election like in the twenty twelve you had, 86 00:04:52.879 --> 00:04:55.920 like that was a way to do that. You could 87 00:04:55.959 --> 00:04:59.759 be like I'm an Obama guy or I'm a McCaine guy, 88 00:05:00.000 --> 00:05:03.240 and uh, I'm a Ron Paul guy, and you you 89 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:06.399 do like fan art of your guy, and people who 90 00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:08.680 also liked your guy like spread your guy around. It's 91 00:05:08.680 --> 00:05:10.480 a good way to get attention. It's a good way 92 00:05:10.519 --> 00:05:15.800 to get work. And so that's what I did. I did. Uh, 93 00:05:16.199 --> 00:05:18.639 I picked I picked Trump as my guy, like very 94 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:21.600 on really we way way early in the election back 95 00:05:21.639 --> 00:05:27.279 when they were like seventeen candidates Republican and it was 96 00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:31.759 I was working on it during the uh that first 97 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:34.759 Fox debate with mecon Kelly, like the Rosie O'Donnell that 98 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:42.639 that one and the the mood as hours after I 99 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:44.800 posted it. So I posted, I went to bed, and 100 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:47.279 I went to and uh I made fan art like 101 00:05:47.360 --> 00:05:49.480 the spanner of Trump, but I still have it on 102 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:53.240 my on my website and stuff. But then I go 103 00:05:53.319 --> 00:05:55.399 to bed and then I wake up and he the 104 00:05:55.959 --> 00:06:00.680 narrative has shifted from clown candidate to Hitler and our age. 105 00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:07.480 And yeah, everything, And I remember that that was sort 106 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:11.560 of a funny, funny like transfer, I guess you were 107 00:06:11.600 --> 00:06:14.720 talking about, right, the pivot from Donald Trump an inherently 108 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:18.759 comedic to he is Orange Hitler Because again, like I 109 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:20.639 was in height, like I said, late high school at 110 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:22.800 the time, and so you know, when you're like seventeen, 111 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:26.519 you're like, this guy's hilarious. He is my favorite presidential 112 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:29.240 candidate ever because he, you know, makes fun of people 113 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:31.480 on the Internet and says rude things, right, just kind 114 00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:34.639 of core interests at that stage in life. And you know, 115 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:36.439 at first it was sort of this like attitude of like, oh, 116 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:38.800 boys will be boys, like whatever, no one cares. But 117 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:41.399 then it shifted into you don't know what you're saying, 118 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:45.319 You're you're promoting something dangerous. It became even more fun. 119 00:06:45.600 --> 00:06:48.240 Right obviously there's no career tied to it, but I 120 00:06:48.360 --> 00:06:50.160 remember exactly that moment you're talking. 121 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:52.800 About it, this sense of becomes fun. Yeah. Oh man, 122 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:56.519 it freaks me out how people like like like schools 123 00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:00.959 of sardines in the water, just the the media shifts 124 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:03.480 course and they all shift course and they don't realize 125 00:07:03.519 --> 00:07:06.720 that they've shifted course, and they say, well, you know 126 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:08.519 I was always against You're like you you meet like 127 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:10.720 a democrat, wh Well, I always hitted Trump. I always 128 00:07:10.759 --> 00:07:12.920 knew was a racist, you know all. You know, all 129 00:07:12.920 --> 00:07:14.519 the way back in the eighties when he was making 130 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:17.720 appearances on you know, the Fresh Prince of bel Air 131 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:21.519 or whatever, like, No, you didn't. Everybody left him, even you. 132 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:25.240 Well, it's like this is much later in time. But 133 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:28.439 do you remember when they made a big deal Disney 134 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:32.199 did about editing him out of Home alone too, you know, 135 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:33.120 like he remember that. 136 00:07:34.959 --> 00:07:36.839 And they just like roll my eyes and keep scrolling 137 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:39.240 because there was so much of that. Well, it's weird. 138 00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:40.959 And the only reason I remembered this is because like 139 00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:43.680 that's you know, that's back page news even when it happened. 140 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:46.839 But right, you know, last holiday season, I was watching 141 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:49.439 it that movie with you know, some family members, and 142 00:07:49.560 --> 00:07:51.680 it got to the part where you know, Kevin walks 143 00:07:51.720 --> 00:07:53.519 down the hall and he's supposed to, you know, Donald 144 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:55.079 Trump is supposed to point him in the right direction, 145 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:57.439 and Dale looked at me like a crazy person. I 146 00:07:57.519 --> 00:08:00.000 was like, where did Donald Trump scene go? Because admittedly 147 00:08:00.079 --> 00:08:01.480 that does sound like a crazy thing. 148 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:04.279 You know, there's just a scene. Oh, they'll get Mandela 149 00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:06.560 if they don't remember it was ever there, And so 150 00:08:06.639 --> 00:08:08.319 I was easily justified. 151 00:08:08.680 --> 00:08:10.920 But to that point where it's like you really can 152 00:08:11.160 --> 00:08:15.079 just rewrite history through like selective media application, And when 153 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:17.639 you're the one guy, you're like, there's no way, I'm crazy, 154 00:08:17.759 --> 00:08:19.319 Like I remember this happening. 155 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:22.920 Even if something is induging bunchel as that really terrify me. 156 00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:25.680 But that is one of them, like like's be like 157 00:08:25.720 --> 00:08:29.079 living with pod people, Like how did they erase that 158 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:31.519 part of your brain? How does that work? Why am 159 00:08:31.560 --> 00:08:35.399 I the only human? Yeah? 160 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:38.960 Well man, so obviously you got pushed out as a 161 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:44.440 as a commercial illustrator. Uh Ay, I mean look like 162 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:48.919 that's a that is a a crowd with a certain culture. 163 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:50.000 Perhaps I'll leave it at that. 164 00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:54.200 So who do you go next? Yeah, you don't go anywhere. 165 00:08:54.360 --> 00:08:57.720 It's like, well, let's see, well, what of the options 166 00:08:57.759 --> 00:08:59.879 are starve to death? That's one. Put a pin in that. 167 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:03.480 The other one is, uh, did you starve to death? 168 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:09.039 I haven't starved to death yet. We are we are 169 00:09:09.279 --> 00:09:11.399 operating on much, much less money than we used to. 170 00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:18.000 But then I thought, well, let's see if I can 171 00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:25.000 find a new audience, which has been an ongoing Uh. 172 00:09:27.639 --> 00:09:32.519 I don't want to say struggle, it's it's been very interesting. Yeah. 173 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:36.120 So obviously there's at least some crossover with doing you know, 174 00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:38.440 board games if you can do the art yourself, obviously 175 00:09:38.519 --> 00:09:40.440 that's a big part of it, especially in the era 176 00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:44.120 of Ian and you probably know more about this than 177 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:46.600 I do, but you're the era of you know, sort 178 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:50.320 of bespoke hobbyist board gaming right where you can there's 179 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:54.720 an audience for well illustrated, expensive board games. 180 00:09:56.480 --> 00:10:00.600 Right, Well, there's that. Okay, but yeah, I what am 181 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:05.399 I saying? Uh? Well, as a you know, on an illustrator, 182 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:07.360 I've worked with a lot of I had worked with 183 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:09.279 a lot of companies and uh, like a lot of 184 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:12.320 stuff got printed. I had relationships with a lot of 185 00:10:12.559 --> 00:10:14.639 factories who made things. You like you do a show, 186 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:20.080 uh a convention, right, we need we need our branded 187 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:23.000 swag in this location. We need like all the specifications, 188 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:24.519 blah blah blah blah. You take it to the printers. 189 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:26.799 You know, you know all about the you know how 190 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:29.240 to pick the colors and uh, you know and how 191 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:30.879 to how to get it all. So, okay, I have 192 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:33.519 this skill set. Maybe I can just apply it to something. 193 00:10:33.559 --> 00:10:35.720 And I also like board games and listen like strategy games, 194 00:10:35.759 --> 00:10:39.200 so so that works out well. I just I guess 195 00:10:39.240 --> 00:10:45.799 I was referring to, Uh, I guess I'm very liberal brained, 196 00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:50.279 if that makes any sense. I'm a liberal brain person 197 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:54.320 with conservative values among conservatives, And I don't know, I'm 198 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:58.320 just constantly aware of, like how I don't connect with people, 199 00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:00.559 and how things don't land and help people don't care 200 00:11:00.600 --> 00:11:02.000 about the same things that I care about. 201 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:06.200 Does that make sense one hundred percent? And like I 202 00:11:06.320 --> 00:11:10.960 even say that as someone who has right wing politics 203 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:17.279 but is not particularly conservative for whatever that term means. 204 00:11:17.320 --> 00:11:20.120 And I think there is an important difference there, you know, yeah, 205 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:23.120 even see this with like Honestly, I think that in 206 00:11:23.240 --> 00:11:27.960 many ways, current millennial culture is actually quite conservative in 207 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:32.279 the sense that they are very interested in maintaining a 208 00:11:32.399 --> 00:11:35.519 certain type of status quo, like the values handed down 209 00:11:35.600 --> 00:11:38.519 to them by wider society. They want to preserve those. 210 00:11:38.679 --> 00:11:43.000 It's just they grew up in, broadly speaking, very left 211 00:11:43.080 --> 00:11:46.120 wing culture. So I think there's there's important distinction to 212 00:11:46.159 --> 00:11:46.639 be made there. 213 00:11:47.080 --> 00:11:49.919 There as these pseudomorphosis at work. Yes they are the 214 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:55.399 millennials are becoming what they are. No, certainly and so. 215 00:11:56.360 --> 00:11:59.120 But but so when you're speaking about that, that's sort 216 00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:01.159 of like, I guess real latitude, right, how does that 217 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:02.360 affect your work? 218 00:12:02.440 --> 00:12:08.360 I guess, well, it's it seems to me just to 219 00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:11.559 start out that the political divide right now has less 220 00:12:11.559 --> 00:12:14.399 to do with politics and more to do with personality. 221 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:19.240 Certainly personality types like if you are extremely left brained, 222 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:22.639 you're probably a Republican Now, I don't think it would 223 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:24.480 be it would have been that way twenty five years ago. 224 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:27.039 And if you're extremely right brained, like a creative type, 225 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:30.759 you are easily you are very susceptible to imagery and 226 00:12:31.039 --> 00:12:34.080 emotion and propaganda, and you will be on the left 227 00:12:34.519 --> 00:12:36.519 currently right brain on the left, left brain on the right. 228 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:39.600 So when I approach your project, like I'm really interested 229 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:41.639 in like the aesthetics of the thing, right, and I 230 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:44.080 find that my audience really isn't like they don't care 231 00:12:44.159 --> 00:12:48.039 even if they notice. Well, that's always a tough thing. 232 00:12:48.399 --> 00:12:50.720 And I noticed this as well someone who's maybe not 233 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:55.039 a creative themselves, but it's surrounded myself with creatives, is 234 00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:58.080 that it's always tough when it's it's like the thing 235 00:12:58.320 --> 00:13:00.600 you care about, the thing that you want to be perfect, 236 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:04.679 has very little determinate value on what you actually need 237 00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:06.720 the project to do. But it's like I can't let 238 00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:09.159 it go. It has to be perfect, even in a 239 00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:10.080 way that doesn't matter. 240 00:13:10.720 --> 00:13:12.600 Well, on the back of my mind, I tell myself 241 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:15.159 that they actually do perceive it, even if they it 242 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:17.559 doesn't register, if that makes sense. 243 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:22.639 Like one hundred percent. And actually this is a horrible 244 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:27.159 podcasting form. Will what's the game that you've most recently made? 245 00:13:27.399 --> 00:13:29.039 Right, because this is what we are supposed. 246 00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:31.960 To be talking about twelve minutes into a conversation. 247 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:35.759 Yeah, you mentioned currently are we are promoting Civil War two, 248 00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:40.080 which is my most recent release. It is just about 249 00:13:40.120 --> 00:13:46.080 to cross twelve thousand out of of a goal of 250 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:50.240 seventeen thousand, seventy six, which I thought would be immersive, 251 00:13:51.320 --> 00:13:53.240 very immersive. It is completely an arbitrary number. 252 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:57.480 Fair enough, Yeah, that's what platforms are you using to 253 00:13:57.559 --> 00:13:59.759 promote that? Because I understand that there are some platforms 254 00:13:59.799 --> 00:14:00.919 which or friendlier than others. 255 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:04.120 Well, I decided to do it on Kickstarter, which may 256 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:07.159 have been a mistake. I think they're very I think 257 00:14:07.159 --> 00:14:10.399 they're very hostile to us. I kind of I got 258 00:14:10.440 --> 00:14:13.320 it in my mind that this time I would do 259 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:18.240 something that would be appealing, appealing to a broader cross 260 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:23.960 section of people, and that the curmudgeons that the pearl 261 00:14:24.039 --> 00:14:27.000 clutches a kick Kickstarter would give me a fair shake 262 00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:28.879 this time. I think that might have been a mistake. 263 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:32.159 Well see, I mean, look, the Kickstarter is still up, 264 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:37.519 so it's true. It's still up. Yeah, let's business. 265 00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:40.320 Model of Kickstarter, if you will, because I think it's 266 00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:45.080 actually an interesting thing because I know, well, and here's 267 00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:46.240 the angle I want to take it. I think this 268 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:53.639 is interesting. I think the there's a much heightened skepticism 269 00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:57.120 around crowdfunding than there was ten years ago because of 270 00:14:57.240 --> 00:14:59.720 well of no good reasons masters. 271 00:14:59.639 --> 00:15:02.279 Right, like how do you do it right? 272 00:15:02.360 --> 00:15:04.080 Like how do you run a kickstart in a way 273 00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:07.440 that actually that people can feel like they're not wasting 274 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:09.000 their money or they're going to get scamed. 275 00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:13.559 Well, I have built up a base over time. I 276 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.200 have the mailing list. It's got about three thousand people 277 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:20.240 on it, former and former and current customers. Most of 278 00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:24.320 it comes from that. I guess I've done done right 279 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:27.879 by them enough times that they want more. I've got 280 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:30.159 to get a lot of repeat buyers, not as many 281 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:34.080 new ones as I would hope. But as for reasons 282 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:37.840 that you say, yes, the kickstarter model is throw up 283 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:44.759 some slop, take the money and moved Costa Rica. Yeah, 284 00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:45.159 fair enough. 285 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:49.120 I mean, look it's a goal, right, So that's a 286 00:15:49.159 --> 00:15:51.000 good answer. And honestly, I think that that's sort of 287 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:54.360 the And you see this in any sort of like 288 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:58.399 online environment, like I remember forum culture back when that 289 00:15:58.519 --> 00:16:02.600 still existed, would have like a rep kind of yes 290 00:16:02.679 --> 00:16:04.799 and no, it's been eaten by social media. So if 291 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:07.519 you go to your favorite forms, yeah, like if you 292 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:10.639 go to your favorite forums, there's just no volume anymore. 293 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:13.440 You know, a lot of them unfortunately have been fully 294 00:16:13.559 --> 00:16:15.840 killed off, like they don't pay for hosting anymore. But 295 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:18.240 there's just it's still alive, but not like it used to. 296 00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:20.639 See I think of you know, like the REP system 297 00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:23.440 that used to exist, right just asper to. 298 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:26.519 The successor to the successor of the forum that I 299 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:29.600 ran and used to frequent is Kiwi Farms. And they're fine, 300 00:16:29.759 --> 00:16:32.399 but buying and large. I believe you're correg guess oh. 301 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:34.480 That's that's actually really interesting. I had Josh moon on 302 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:35.279 not too long ago. 303 00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:38.559 Yeah, very few of them actually remember me. Some of 304 00:16:38.600 --> 00:16:41.320 the posters might. It's all overrun by millennials now. 305 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:47.000 Yeah, well, I mean I think with Kiwi Farms, it's 306 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:49.440 sort of its own, sort of its own thing now, 307 00:16:49.879 --> 00:16:53.320 you know, Like whereas the model for forums, and I 308 00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:54.960 was around for kind of the tail end of it, 309 00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:56.879 but as someone who had specific interest, it was a 310 00:16:56.919 --> 00:17:00.320 great way to collate information. But the reason I brought 311 00:17:00.360 --> 00:17:02.039 it up, it's not just a reminisce about when the 312 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:05.839 Internet was more fun, but to say there there was, 313 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:09.480 you know, either in an informal or formalized REP system, 314 00:17:09.759 --> 00:17:12.240 you know, like you see, like, yeah, your postcount how 315 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:16.519 people rated you, you could sort of sort information. And 316 00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:19.400 I've talked to other you know, artists who fund their 317 00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:21.839 work via crowdfunding. I think of you know, Matt Cotts, 318 00:17:21.839 --> 00:17:24.680 who's you know, five hundred pages into a graphic novel 319 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:29.680 series now in a decade and uh yeah, stuff's great, 320 00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:32.000 like genuinely great. You. I'm sure you would like it. 321 00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:35.400 It's uh, i'll we'll we talk about it later. But 322 00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:38.240 the uh, that's one of the things he spoke about, 323 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:40.640 which is that that exact thing of you having people 324 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:44.000 who have bought your products before having a track rad 325 00:17:44.039 --> 00:17:47.079 record saying you know, here's what I do. I deliver 326 00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:49.880 on time. I'm not gonna scam you, right like that. 327 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:53.079 That is in a way like building up a customer base. 328 00:17:53.640 --> 00:17:58.119 And uh yeah, that's a very valuable, very valuable tool 329 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:00.519 for creative right yeah. 330 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:04.960 Hey, being honest. Actually, you know, it's it's a good 331 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:09.519 way to live your life. Turns out, Yeah, controversial opinion. 332 00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:15.839 Don't want controversial opinion? Yeah yeah, yeah. And now with 333 00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:20.640 just to uh, you know, shout them out as that 334 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:24.079 would you say it? In hip hop culture? Uh? Uh? 335 00:18:24.279 --> 00:18:29.599 And Lapill they're great, they're great, straight shoot, Yeah. 336 00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:32.200 And that's the cool thing I was actually, you know, 337 00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:35.319 I was actually talking to uh, you know, the founder 338 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:38.200 of analy Uphill actually less than a week ago, and uh, 339 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:40.759 I'm not gonna tell tales out of school obviously, but 340 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:42.839 that was one of the things that he spoke about 341 00:18:42.839 --> 00:18:44.880 that I thought was really exciting is that he's, you know, 342 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:47.160 now at a point where he spends a significant amount 343 00:18:47.200 --> 00:18:50.880 of time telling people no, which like, Okay, you could 344 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:52.519 look at that and say, well, that's bad for those 345 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:56.359 individual people, but it's exciting from the perspective of, well, 346 00:18:56.440 --> 00:19:00.559 now there is a large amount of well there's obviously 347 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:03.160 a market to sustain it, but on a secondary level, 348 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:06.920 now there is a large group of people who maybe 349 00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:11.759 aspirationally want to create for that audience. And you know, 350 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:14.440 you look back at, you know, a previous model. I 351 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:17.359 was talking to an author earlier today where your one 352 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:19.880 choice for getting your workout was you know, the two 353 00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:23.440 big companies in whatever your industry was, Right, You're not 354 00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:25.519 beholden to that anymore. And it means you can do 355 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:29.880 interesting and exciting things, right, Yes. 356 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:33.799 It does. Some of my exciting ideas are still too 357 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:35.799 a radical randal uptil I'm going to work on them. 358 00:19:38.039 --> 00:19:39.279 All right, all right, let's. 359 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:42.000 See, So what are your other games? Right, And obviously 360 00:19:42.000 --> 00:19:43.400 we don't need to go into detail, but like you 361 00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:46.480 speak about building up some sort of rapport, so like 362 00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:48.079 how do you do that? How do you get your 363 00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:49.599 initial audience and build from there? 364 00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:57.720 One my first campaign was in twenty seventeen, I think, 365 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:01.799 I think that's right. Yeah, think twenty seventeen. Oh maybe later, 366 00:20:01.920 --> 00:20:05.079 maybe it's twenty, I don't remember. It's but it was 367 00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:08.160 Virtue sing of the game, which was a game that 368 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:13.119 I had been working on on the forum that Kiwi 369 00:20:13.200 --> 00:20:17.000 Farms is a successor to the Successor too, and I 370 00:20:17.079 --> 00:20:20.839 had been working on for a long time. Which is it? 371 00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:27.960 It simulates the infighting in liberal groups. If if from 372 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:30.319 the outside it may not be a parent, but inside 373 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:36.160 those groups they are buckets of cannibal maggots, just devour 374 00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:38.440 each other and climbing, trying to climb to the top. There. 375 00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:42.759 It's a it's it's a very vicious environment. Well maybe 376 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:44.039 you do. Maybe maybe it disapparent. 377 00:20:45.559 --> 00:20:47.640 Yeah, I mean they seem to be largely, completely and 378 00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:49.119 totally miserable. 379 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:53.039 Right, I mean actly miserable all of the time, terrified 380 00:20:54.519 --> 00:20:56.480 if you step one toe out of line, you know, 381 00:20:57.000 --> 00:20:59.240 the the rest of them will turn on you in 382 00:20:59.359 --> 00:21:01.960 a minute. You thought you were your friends. And to 383 00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:06.000 top that off, the narrative is constantly shifting and you 384 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:09.839 have to pay extremely close attention. This actually isn't a funny. 385 00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:11.680 This is a funny story. I've told this. 386 00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:13.200 I don't know if I've told it all on air before. 387 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:15.319 This is one hundred percent true. It sounds like made 388 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:19.000 up bullshit. I've I've been doxed, been docked for a 389 00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:23.240 long time, okay, and uh, literally the week or two 390 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:27.880 after I was doxed, I was hanging out with some 391 00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:32.119 friends who were the plans had already been made. They 392 00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:35.759 sort of disassociated after the politics changed, you know, but 393 00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:38.000 it was sort of this awkward like everyone knows, but 394 00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:40.880 no one really wants to have the conversation sort of thing. 395 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:45.359 And we're sitting around playing board games, and of course 396 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:48.079 the game Secret Hitler is there, and I'm like, all 397 00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:51.599 right that I'm looking at it right now, mylf. Literally, 398 00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:54.000 I've never played this game in my life before. William 399 00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:57.440 the first hand this, there's this kind of uncomfortable, you know, 400 00:21:57.519 --> 00:21:59.359 cloud in the air. I'm there with some friends who 401 00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:00.920