Speaker 1: Leaning a light. Man like this, Man, you letting butterfly
Speaker 1: flapping his wing big down in a force. Man, it
Speaker 1: gonna cause a tree fold, letting five thousand miles away. Man,
Speaker 1: nobody see it.
Speaker 2: Nobody else. Let you see what you don't need? No, man,
Speaker 2: don't you follow? And you got back that? Man? Don't
Speaker 2: black a d on Panama?
Speaker 1: Man, you don't don't matter?
Speaker 3: Man anyway?
Speaker 2: All right? William from in soel Riots Studios. How you
Speaker 2: doing man? Pretty good? Are you? Yeah? I'm doing well.
Speaker 1: I mean I realized dating your podcast in the first
Speaker 1: twenty seconds, UH is poor form.
Speaker 2: But if you're wondering less, sir. This is the day
Speaker 2: that the chat feature.
Speaker 1: On x Scott pushed out, which means that UH, as
Speaker 1: someone whose job it is to basically coordinate things via
Speaker 1: dms on Twitter, today has been a disaster for me.
Speaker 1: Nothing has gone according to plan. But nonetheless are here
Speaker 1: so anyway, man, Obviously this was set up by our
Speaker 1: mutual friends at Antelope Hill.
Speaker 2: But who are you and what do you do? Who
Speaker 2: am I?
Speaker 3: And what do I do?
Speaker 2: My name is William Dale? About just docs myself and
Speaker 2: I make board games. I've been making board games for
Speaker 2: I guess seven eight years now professionally, and before that
Speaker 2: I was a commercial illustrator. I guess we'll get into
Speaker 2: that story at some point. That it all came to
Speaker 2: a screechy halt in twenty sixteen when I backed their
Speaker 2: own candidate for president.
Speaker 1: And that's sort of an interesting thing. I'm not really
Speaker 1: a board games guy, but I am in areas that
Speaker 1: are kissing cousins, right, Like I sort of grew up
Speaker 1: as a you know, a war gamer. You're playing a
Speaker 1: lot of tabletop RPGs and there's a lot of crossover, right,
Speaker 1: you sort of see the same treatment happening, and uh,
Speaker 1: those faces got just absolutely overrun with like horrible progressive
Speaker 1: types sort of at the same time, slightly earlier even
Speaker 1: than we saw with you know, gaming, which obviously gamer
Speaker 1: Gate is how a lot of people ended up, you know,
Speaker 1: by getting pushed out of mainstream politics.
Speaker 2: I think they were always there, I think I think
Speaker 2: I think the election brought them out as well, one
Speaker 2: hundred percent. It brought it out.
Speaker 1: And you know, I was giving a teenager at the time,
Speaker 1: and you know, I had always been interested in kind
Speaker 1: of nerdy at nerdy whatever that means, you know, activities, Uh,
Speaker 1: and obviously to me, in my mind, if there were politics,
Speaker 1: it was sort of like nineties liberal politics, like generally
Speaker 1: be nice to people, you know, authority is generally negative.
Speaker 1: But it was all pretty background stuff, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: that's a very general thing to say.
Speaker 2: But I guess I guess if you're in high school
Speaker 2: during the nineties, I suppose that's true.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about in the in the mid two thousands,
Speaker 1: like that was the sort of politics that you saw,
Speaker 1: like I'm thinking about like uh like or like sort
Speaker 1: of before fifth edition D and D, you know, for
Speaker 1: for rough context.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, I lost track of D and D after
Speaker 2: second edition. I just just completely ignored it.
Speaker 1: You didn't miss much.
Speaker 2: All I have to say about that is some uh
Speaker 2: faco as cancer and uh roll to hit tables are
Speaker 2: the way to go. It's the way God it came
Speaker 2: to be played. It's a fair enough man.
Speaker 1: So obviously you you you started out on your own,
Speaker 1: what almost ten years ago? Now, Uh, do you want
Speaker 1: to just briefly summarize your your cancelation. We don't need
Speaker 1: to get into the details, but.
Speaker 2: Oh the cancelation. Sure, yeah, well, I guess you might
Speaker 2: not remember in twenty twelve when you had during when
Speaker 2: elections happened. So me working as a commercial illustrator, right,
Speaker 2: like a freelance I have. I had representation, but you
Speaker 2: know they only shot me like a project like three
Speaker 2: or four times a year if that. So I'm like
Speaker 2: completely on my own, like on the hands and dribble
Speaker 2: and on social media just posting things like to get
Speaker 2: the attention of people. And one really way a good
Speaker 2: way to do that back then is like if a
Speaker 2: really popular franchise came out, like Breaking Bad comes out,
Speaker 2: you do some Breaking Bad fan art and people will
Speaker 2: spread it around because it's a franchise they like. And
Speaker 2: during an election like in the twenty twelve you had,
Speaker 2: like that was a way to do that. You could
Speaker 2: be like I'm an Obama guy or I'm a McCaine guy,
Speaker 2: and uh, I'm a Ron Paul guy, and you you
Speaker 2: do like fan art of your guy, and people who
Speaker 2: also liked your guy like spread your guy around. It's
Speaker 2: a good way to get attention. It's a good way
Speaker 2: to get work. And so that's what I did. I did. Uh,
Speaker 2: I picked I picked Trump as my guy, like very
Speaker 2: on really we way way early in the election back
Speaker 2: when they were like seventeen candidates Republican and it was
Speaker 2: I was working on it during the uh that first
Speaker 2: Fox debate with mecon Kelly, like the Rosie O'Donnell that
Speaker 2: that one and the the mood as hours after I
Speaker 2: posted it. So I posted, I went to bed, and
Speaker 2: I went to and uh I made fan art like
Speaker 2: the spanner of Trump, but I still have it on
Speaker 2: my on my website and stuff. But then I go
Speaker 2: to bed and then I wake up and he the
Speaker 2: narrative has shifted from clown candidate to Hitler and our age.
Speaker 1: And yeah, everything, And I remember that that was sort
Speaker 1: of a funny, funny like transfer, I guess you were
Speaker 1: talking about, right, the pivot from Donald Trump an inherently
Speaker 1: comedic to he is Orange Hitler Because again, like I
Speaker 1: was in height, like I said, late high school at
Speaker 1: the time, and so you know, when you're like seventeen,
Speaker 1: you're like, this guy's hilarious. He is my favorite presidential
Speaker 1: candidate ever because he, you know, makes fun of people
Speaker 1: on the Internet and says rude things, right, just kind
Speaker 1: of core interests at that stage in life. And you know,
Speaker 1: at first it was sort of this like attitude of like, oh,
Speaker 1: boys will be boys, like whatever, no one cares. But
Speaker 1: then it shifted into you don't know what you're saying,
Speaker 1: You're you're promoting something dangerous. It became even more fun.
Speaker 1: Right obviously there's no career tied to it, but I
Speaker 1: remember exactly that moment you're talking.
Speaker 2: About it, this sense of becomes fun. Yeah. Oh man,
Speaker 2: it freaks me out how people like like like schools
Speaker 2: of sardines in the water, just the the media shifts
Speaker 2: course and they all shift course and they don't realize
Speaker 2: that they've shifted course, and they say, well, you know
Speaker 2: I was always against You're like you you meet like
Speaker 2: a democrat, wh Well, I always hitted Trump. I always
Speaker 2: knew was a racist, you know all. You know, all
Speaker 2: the way back in the eighties when he was making
Speaker 2: appearances on you know, the Fresh Prince of bel Air
Speaker 2: or whatever, like, No, you didn't. Everybody left him, even you.
Speaker 1: Well, it's like this is much later in time. But
Speaker 1: do you remember when they made a big deal Disney
Speaker 1: did about editing him out of Home alone too, you know,
Speaker 1: like he remember that.
Speaker 2: And they just like roll my eyes and keep scrolling
Speaker 2: because there was so much of that. Well, it's weird.
Speaker 1: And the only reason I remembered this is because like
Speaker 1: that's you know, that's back page news even when it happened.
Speaker 1: But right, you know, last holiday season, I was watching
Speaker 1: it that movie with you know, some family members, and
Speaker 1: it got to the part where you know, Kevin walks
Speaker 1: down the hall and he's supposed to, you know, Donald
Speaker 1: Trump is supposed to point him in the right direction,
Speaker 1: and Dale looked at me like a crazy person. I
Speaker 1: was like, where did Donald Trump scene go? Because admittedly
Speaker 1: that does sound like a crazy thing.
Speaker 2: You know, there's just a scene. Oh, they'll get Mandela
Speaker 2: if they don't remember it was ever there, And so
Speaker 2: I was easily justified.
Speaker 1: But to that point where it's like you really can
Speaker 1: just rewrite history through like selective media application, And when
Speaker 1: you're the one guy, you're like, there's no way, I'm crazy,
Speaker 1: Like I remember this happening.
Speaker 2: Even if something is induging bunchel as that really terrify me.
Speaker 2: But that is one of them, like like's be like
Speaker 2: living with pod people, Like how did they erase that
Speaker 2: part of your brain? How does that work? Why am
Speaker 2: I the only human? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Well man, so obviously you got pushed out as a
Speaker 1: as a commercial illustrator. Uh Ay, I mean look like
Speaker 1: that's a that is a a crowd with a certain culture.
Speaker 1: Perhaps I'll leave it at that.
Speaker 2: So who do you go next? Yeah, you don't go anywhere.
Speaker 2: It's like, well, let's see, well, what of the options
Speaker 2: are starve to death? That's one. Put a pin in that.
Speaker 2: The other one is, uh, did you starve to death?
Speaker 2: I haven't starved to death yet. We are we are
Speaker 2: operating on much, much less money than we used to.
Speaker 2: But then I thought, well, let's see if I can
Speaker 2: find a new audience, which has been an ongoing Uh.
Speaker 2: I don't want to say struggle, it's it's been very interesting. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So obviously there's at least some crossover with doing you know,
Speaker 1: board games if you can do the art yourself, obviously
Speaker 1: that's a big part of it, especially in the era
Speaker 1: of Ian and you probably know more about this than
Speaker 1: I do, but you're the era of you know, sort
Speaker 1: of bespoke hobbyist board gaming right where you can there's
Speaker 1: an audience for well illustrated, expensive board games.
Speaker 2: Right, Well, there's that. Okay, but yeah, I what am
Speaker 2: I saying? Uh? Well, as a you know, on an illustrator,
Speaker 2: I've worked with a lot of I had worked with
Speaker 2: a lot of companies and uh, like a lot of
Speaker 2: stuff got printed. I had relationships with a lot of
Speaker 2: factories who made things. You like you do a show,
Speaker 2: uh a convention, right, we need we need our branded
Speaker 2: swag in this location. We need like all the specifications,
Speaker 2: blah blah blah blah. You take it to the printers.
Speaker 2: You know, you know all about the you know how
Speaker 2: to pick the colors and uh, you know and how
Speaker 2: to how to get it all. So, okay, I have
Speaker 2: this skill set. Maybe I can just apply it to something.
Speaker 2: And I also like board games and listen like strategy games,
Speaker 2: so so that works out well. I just I guess
Speaker 2: I was referring to, Uh, I guess I'm very liberal brained,
Speaker 2: if that makes any sense. I'm a liberal brain person
Speaker 2: with conservative values among conservatives, And I don't know, I'm
Speaker 2: just constantly aware of, like how I don't connect with people,
Speaker 2: and how things don't land and help people don't care
Speaker 2: about the same things that I care about.
Speaker 1: Does that make sense one hundred percent? And like I
Speaker 1: even say that as someone who has right wing politics
Speaker 1: but is not particularly conservative for whatever that term means.
Speaker 1: And I think there is an important difference there, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: even see this with like Honestly, I think that in
Speaker 1: many ways, current millennial culture is actually quite conservative in
Speaker 1: the sense that they are very interested in maintaining a
Speaker 1: certain type of status quo, like the values handed down
Speaker 1: to them by wider society. They want to preserve those.
Speaker 1: It's just they grew up in, broadly speaking, very left
Speaker 1: wing culture. So I think there's there's important distinction to
Speaker 1: be made there.
Speaker 2: There as these pseudomorphosis at work. Yes they are the
Speaker 2: millennials are becoming what they are. No, certainly and so.
Speaker 1: But but so when you're speaking about that, that's sort
Speaker 1: of like, I guess real latitude, right, how does that
Speaker 1: affect your work?
Speaker 2: I guess, well, it's it seems to me just to
Speaker 2: start out that the political divide right now has less
Speaker 2: to do with politics and more to do with personality.
Speaker 2: Certainly personality types like if you are extremely left brained,
Speaker 2: you're probably a Republican Now, I don't think it would
Speaker 2: be it would have been that way twenty five years ago.
Speaker 2: And if you're extremely right brained, like a creative type,
Speaker 2: you are easily you are very susceptible to imagery and
Speaker 2: emotion and propaganda, and you will be on the left
Speaker 2: currently right brain on the left, left brain on the right.
Speaker 2: So when I approach your project, like I'm really interested
Speaker 2: in like the aesthetics of the thing, right, and I
Speaker 2: find that my audience really isn't like they don't care
Speaker 2: even if they notice. Well, that's always a tough thing.
Speaker 1: And I noticed this as well someone who's maybe not
Speaker 1: a creative themselves, but it's surrounded myself with creatives, is
Speaker 1: that it's always tough when it's it's like the thing
Speaker 1: you care about, the thing that you want to be perfect,
Speaker 1: has very little determinate value on what you actually need
Speaker 1: the project to do. But it's like I can't let
Speaker 1: it go. It has to be perfect, even in a
Speaker 1: way that doesn't matter.
Speaker 2: Well, on the back of my mind, I tell myself
Speaker 2: that they actually do perceive it, even if they it
Speaker 2: doesn't register, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Like one hundred percent. And actually this is a horrible
Speaker 1: podcasting form. Will what's the game that you've most recently made?
Speaker 2: Right, because this is what we are supposed.
Speaker 1: To be talking about twelve minutes into a conversation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you mentioned currently are we are promoting Civil War two,
Speaker 2: which is my most recent release. It is just about
Speaker 2: to cross twelve thousand out of of a goal of
Speaker 2: seventeen thousand, seventy six, which I thought would be immersive,
Speaker 2: very immersive. It is completely an arbitrary number.
Speaker 1: Fair enough, Yeah, that's what platforms are you using to
Speaker 1: promote that? Because I understand that there are some platforms
Speaker 1: which or friendlier than others.
Speaker 2: Well, I decided to do it on Kickstarter, which may
Speaker 2: have been a mistake. I think they're very I think
Speaker 2: they're very hostile to us. I kind of I got
Speaker 2: it in my mind that this time I would do
Speaker 2: something that would be appealing, appealing to a broader cross
Speaker 2: section of people, and that the curmudgeons that the pearl
Speaker 2: clutches a kick Kickstarter would give me a fair shake
Speaker 2: this time. I think that might have been a mistake.
Speaker 2: Well see, I mean, look, the Kickstarter is still up,
Speaker 2: so it's true. It's still up. Yeah, let's business.
Speaker 1: Model of Kickstarter, if you will, because I think it's
Speaker 1: actually an interesting thing because I know, well, and here's
Speaker 1: the angle I want to take it. I think this
Speaker 1: is interesting. I think the there's a much heightened skepticism
Speaker 1: around crowdfunding than there was ten years ago because of
Speaker 1: well of no good reasons masters.
Speaker 2: Right, like how do you do it right?
Speaker 1: Like how do you run a kickstart in a way
Speaker 1: that actually that people can feel like they're not wasting
Speaker 1: their money or they're going to get scamed.
Speaker 2: Well, I have built up a base over time. I
Speaker 2: have the mailing list. It's got about three thousand people
Speaker 2: on it, former and former and current customers. Most of
Speaker 2: it comes from that. I guess I've done done right
Speaker 2: by them enough times that they want more. I've got
Speaker 2: to get a lot of repeat buyers, not as many
Speaker 2: new ones as I would hope. But as for reasons
Speaker 2: that you say, yes, the kickstarter model is throw up
Speaker 2: some slop, take the money and moved Costa Rica. Yeah,
Speaker 2: fair enough.
Speaker 1: I mean, look it's a goal, right, So that's a
Speaker 1: good answer. And honestly, I think that that's sort of
Speaker 1: the And you see this in any sort of like
Speaker 1: online environment, like I remember forum culture back when that
Speaker 1: still existed, would have like a rep kind of yes
Speaker 1: and no, it's been eaten by social media. So if
Speaker 1: you go to your favorite forms, yeah, like if you
Speaker 1: go to your favorite forums, there's just no volume anymore.
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of them unfortunately have been fully
Speaker 1: killed off, like they don't pay for hosting anymore. But
Speaker 1: there's just it's still alive, but not like it used to.
Speaker 1: See I think of you know, like the REP system
Speaker 1: that used to exist, right just asper to.
Speaker 2: The successor to the successor of the forum that I
Speaker 2: ran and used to frequent is Kiwi Farms. And they're fine,
Speaker 2: but buying and large. I believe you're correg guess oh.
Speaker 1: That's that's actually really interesting. I had Josh moon on
Speaker 1: not too long ago.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very few of them actually remember me. Some of
Speaker 2: the posters might. It's all overrun by millennials now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean I think with Kiwi Farms, it's
Speaker 1: sort of its own, sort of its own thing now,
Speaker 1: you know, Like whereas the model for forums, and I
Speaker 1: was around for kind of the tail end of it,
Speaker 1: but as someone who had specific interest, it was a
Speaker 1: great way to collate information. But the reason I brought
Speaker 1: it up, it's not just a reminisce about when the
Speaker 1: Internet was more fun, but to say there there was,
Speaker 1: you know, either in an informal or formalized REP system,
Speaker 1: you know, like you see, like, yeah, your postcount how
Speaker 1: people rated you, you could sort of sort information. And
Speaker 1: I've talked to other you know, artists who fund their
Speaker 1: work via crowdfunding. I think of you know, Matt Cotts,
Speaker 1: who's you know, five hundred pages into a graphic novel
Speaker 1: series now in a decade and uh yeah, stuff's great,
Speaker 1: like genuinely great. You. I'm sure you would like it.
Speaker 1: It's uh, i'll we'll we talk about it later. But
Speaker 1: the uh, that's one of the things he spoke about,
Speaker 1: which is that that exact thing of you having people
Speaker 1: who have bought your products before having a track rad
Speaker 1: record saying you know, here's what I do. I deliver
Speaker 1: on time. I'm not gonna scam you, right like that.
Speaker 1: That is in a way like building up a customer base.
Speaker 1: And uh yeah, that's a very valuable, very valuable tool
Speaker 1: for creative right yeah.
Speaker 2: Hey, being honest. Actually, you know, it's it's a good
Speaker 2: way to live your life. Turns out, Yeah, controversial opinion.
Speaker 2: Don't want controversial opinion? Yeah yeah, yeah. And now with
Speaker 2: just to uh, you know, shout them out as that
Speaker 2: would you say it? In hip hop culture? Uh? Uh?
Speaker 2: And Lapill they're great, they're great, straight shoot, Yeah.
Speaker 1: And that's the cool thing I was actually, you know,
Speaker 1: I was actually talking to uh, you know, the founder
Speaker 1: of analy Uphill actually less than a week ago, and uh,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna tell tales out of school obviously, but
Speaker 1: that was one of the things that he spoke about
Speaker 1: that I thought was really exciting is that he's, you know,
Speaker 1: now at a point where he spends a significant amount
Speaker 1: of time telling people no, which like, Okay, you could
Speaker 1: look at that and say, well, that's bad for those
Speaker 1: individual people, but it's exciting from the perspective of, well,
Speaker 1: now there is a large amount of well there's obviously
Speaker 1: a market to sustain it, but on a secondary level,
Speaker 1: now there is a large group of people who maybe
Speaker 1: aspirationally want to create for that audience. And you know,
Speaker 1: you look back at, you know, a previous model. I
Speaker 1: was talking to an author earlier today where your one
Speaker 1: choice for getting your workout was you know, the two
Speaker 1: big companies in whatever your industry was, Right, You're not
Speaker 1: beholden to that anymore. And it means you can do
Speaker 1: interesting and exciting things, right, Yes.
Speaker 2: It does. Some of my exciting ideas are still too
Speaker 2: a radical randal uptil I'm going to work on them.
Speaker 2: All right, all right, let's.
Speaker 1: See, So what are your other games? Right, And obviously
Speaker 1: we don't need to go into detail, but like you
Speaker 1: speak about building up some sort of rapport, so like
Speaker 1: how do you do that? How do you get your
Speaker 1: initial audience and build from there?
Speaker 2: One my first campaign was in twenty seventeen, I think,
Speaker 2: I think that's right. Yeah, think twenty seventeen. Oh maybe later,
Speaker 2: maybe it's twenty, I don't remember. It's but it was
Speaker 2: Virtue sing of the game, which was a game that
Speaker 2: I had been working on on the forum that Kiwi
Speaker 2: Farms is a successor to the Successor too, and I
Speaker 2: had been working on for a long time. Which is it?
Speaker 2: It simulates the infighting in liberal groups. If if from
Speaker 2: the outside it may not be a parent, but inside
Speaker 2: those groups they are buckets of cannibal maggots, just devour
Speaker 2: each other and climbing, trying to climb to the top. There.
Speaker 2: It's a it's it's a very vicious environment. Well maybe
Speaker 2: you do. Maybe maybe it disapparent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they seem to be largely, completely and
Speaker 1: totally miserable.
Speaker 2: Right, I mean actly miserable all of the time, terrified
Speaker 2: if you step one toe out of line, you know,
Speaker 2: the the rest of them will turn on you in
Speaker 2: a minute. You thought you were your friends. And to
Speaker 2: top that off, the narrative is constantly shifting and you
Speaker 2: have to pay extremely close attention. This actually isn't a funny.
Speaker 2: This is a funny story. I've told this.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've told it all on air before.
Speaker 1: This is one hundred percent true. It sounds like made
Speaker 1: up bullshit. I've I've been doxed, been docked for a
Speaker 1: long time, okay, and uh, literally the week or two
Speaker 1: after I was doxed, I was hanging out with some
Speaker 1: friends who were the plans had already been made. They
Speaker 1: sort of disassociated after the politics changed, you know, but
Speaker 1: it was sort of this awkward like everyone knows, but
Speaker 1: no one really wants to have the conversation sort of thing.
Speaker 1: And we're sitting around playing board games, and of course
Speaker 1: the game Secret Hitler is there, and I'm like, all
Speaker 1: right that I'm looking at it right now, mylf. Literally,
Speaker 1: I've never played this game in my life before. William
Speaker 1: the first hand this, there's this kind of uncomfortable, you know,
Speaker 1: cloud in the air. I'm there with some friends who
Speaker 1: were aware of what I am and didn't care who
Speaker 1: are kind of on my side? And the hints got
Speaker 1: at the beginning, and of course it's Werewolf right or mafia.
Speaker 1: You know, there's one guy who's him. Obviously there are
Speaker 1: differences to it. But for people who don't know, you're
Speaker 1: looking for secret Hitler, right, and uh literally the first round,
Speaker 1: I'm secret Hitler and I'm like, oh no, this has
Speaker 1: just happened. It's happened twice, right first, this tragedy then
Speaker 1: is farse right, I have the literal Nazi in their midst,
Speaker 1: I don't know which was just like incredibly odd the nose.
Speaker 1: But I think that that is sort of a you know,
Speaker 1: an interesting counterpoint, right of like their their game is
Speaker 1: rooting out the Nazi, you know, like that's the that's
Speaker 1: the ha ha, funny edgy party joke or party game rather,
Speaker 1: And I think that sort of indicates an interesting bit
Speaker 1: of psychology there.
Speaker 2: And if there is no Nazi, you must create a
Speaker 2: Nazi from one of you. Yeah, someone's got to be
Speaker 2: crucify him. Yes, somebody has to be crucified all the time.
Speaker 2: And if nobody is a parent, right, if there's nobody,
Speaker 2: if you have to find somebody. It's got to be
Speaker 2: somebody you got to root them out for some reason,
Speaker 2: and you got to crucify that person. It's got to
Speaker 2: happen on a regular basis, right, So the game simulates that.
Speaker 2: And I had no experience doing a Kickstarter. I had
Speaker 2: no experience like with the I had no advertising or
Speaker 2: marketing set up. I just threw it up on Kickstarter,
Speaker 2: and by the third day we were trending number seven
Speaker 2: across the entire site. I mean, that's not bad for
Speaker 2: a first attempt, right, it's pretty good for a first attempt.
Speaker 2: Like I didn't. It stresses me out like things like that.
Speaker 2: So I wasn't paying attention. But I had like a
Speaker 2: friend slash partner. He's like, hey, like we're going We're
Speaker 2: number seven, Like oh in BAM's no across the whole site. Wow.
Speaker 2: And people start giving me, calling me up and I
Speaker 2: got noticed by the Feds and a whole bunch of stuff,
Speaker 2: and then then Kickstarter that obanned me hard. As soon
Speaker 2: as as soon as I hit funding, I set the
Speaker 2: goal of forty thousand dollars, extremely ambitious for a board
Speaker 2: game period, let alone a first time, and oh wait, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: I said it a twenty five thousand and forty thousands
Speaker 2: what we ended up making. So I hit funding like
Speaker 2: in the first week or something like that, and then
Speaker 2: they bam, they brought the hammer down and we were last.
Speaker 2: We were last on the entire site, like after people
Speaker 2: with no pledges, the dead last, which is just great.
Speaker 1: I mean again, it's like the very aggressive response from tech.
Speaker 1: It's sort of moderated slightly, but it bears repeating, right,
Speaker 1: very yeah, one hundred percent. It's like, look, just like,
Speaker 1: send a corporate hit team and paint my brains all
Speaker 1: over the wall. At least then it's like direct, you know,
Speaker 1: instead of this like corporate HR approved way of making
Speaker 1: me go away. But in all seriousness, is someone who's
Speaker 1: you know, played board games quite often, but wouldn't really
Speaker 1: consider myself a board gamer. What goes into the actual
Speaker 1: process of designing a game from the ground.
Speaker 2: Oh, good question, nobody's actually I never asked me that.
Speaker 2: Lots of revisions, I guess you start with that's a
Speaker 2: good question. I was not ready to answer that question.
Speaker 2: It's finding the game in real life, if that makes sense,
Speaker 2: and identifying games that are interesting right, games with them
Speaker 2: that are layers that appear to be self contradictory, if
Speaker 2: that makes sense.
Speaker 1: Hmmm, so do you start Do you start with sort
Speaker 1: of like an initial I guess even say loop or
Speaker 1: like an initial like concept and iterate from there or
Speaker 1: are you looking for a more complicated idea? Again saying
Speaker 1: this is someone who's never designed a board game, I
Speaker 1: started out with, Okay, how do we simulate this? So
Speaker 1: it went through, Uh, well, I'll do virtual single because
Speaker 1: I think that went through the most revisions.
Speaker 2: We're going to you. It's a contest to develop like
Speaker 2: your liberal virtue. It's a race. Okay, we'll start it
Speaker 2: out as a race. So I thought, okay, we can
Speaker 2: start out like Millbourns are familiar with. It's an auto
Speaker 2: racing game where you just like put down miles. You
Speaker 2: count up miles right, and and then other people can
Speaker 2: put hazards on. You can inhibit you by putting it
Speaker 2: on a hazard. You clear the hazard, and then you
Speaker 2: keep putting down miles. It's extremely simple game, not terribly fun,
Speaker 2: very very luck based. So I had that for a while.
Speaker 2: It was just like a liberal count count count count
Speaker 2: count count counter of liberal points like this could be better,
Speaker 2: So instead of one counter, we're gonna make four counters.
Speaker 2: We're gonna divide it up into suits, red, yellow, green,
Speaker 2: and blue, and they will represent One will be feminism,
Speaker 2: one will be LGBT stuff, another one will be uh economics,
Speaker 2: and then there will be politics. So politics is blue
Speaker 2: virtue within the Democratic Party. Economics has read how Marxist
Speaker 2: start you and no like LGPD stuff and then the
Speaker 2: feminist stuff and okay, rather than in generic points, maybe
Speaker 2: these points can represent something within that thing. So now
Speaker 2: instead of having like generic numbers, all the cards are
Speaker 2: going to be unique. It set a very high bar.
Speaker 2: All the cards are going to be unique, and they're
Speaker 2: going to be all individually illustrated. Okay, So all right,
Speaker 2: so I am an influencer now and I am my
Speaker 2: points are people? Okay, and then and they're just going
Speaker 2: to go in a stack and go okay, maybe there's
Speaker 2: something better than going in a stack. Maybe I could
Speaker 2: do it like like Dominos or people accuse me of
Speaker 2: like ripping off Illuminati. I didn't. Actually, it really did
Speaker 2: start out as a Millbourne's game. What if like they
Speaker 2: I put my card down on the table and then
Speaker 2: like these different people like all the all the all
Speaker 2: the all the points used to be points. Now they
Speaker 2: represent people. There are your followers, and they influence other people. Right,
Speaker 2: So supposing I'm the communist influencer right with, there are
Speaker 2: a couple of them, uh, I forget his name, but
Speaker 2: and I have like mostly like red valances on my cards.
Speaker 2: Like I'll attract all the communist guys, but those guys
Speaker 2: may have friends who are may have a Democrat sympathies,
Speaker 2: and they may have friends who are Democrats. So I can,
Speaker 2: I can, I can get those guys, and then I
Speaker 2: can start adding. Right, so you add, you start with
Speaker 2: like a red card, and then you add some red
Speaker 2: followers which have some blue valances on the end. They
Speaker 2: can touch blue cards to those and uh and and
Speaker 2: branch off from there. So now it becomes strategic instead
Speaker 2: of just being a running count. And then the hazards
Speaker 2: which used to be against the uh the character personally. Again,
Speaker 2: this is just like Millboy's where you have a flat
Speaker 2: tire and then the remedy is to get a spare tire.
Speaker 2: So in the in virtue signal, you will have the microaggression. Right,
Speaker 2: this is the this is the competition part. You you
Speaker 2: accuse somebody a micro of a microaggression, you slap the
Speaker 2: microaggression card on them or on their on one of
Speaker 2: their followers, and this hinders your your liberal virtue. And
Speaker 2: the only way to get out of that is to
Speaker 2: with a virtue signal. Right, some uh some some expression
Speaker 2: of liberal piety that makes no sense and doesn't actually
Speaker 2: help any everything anybody, but makes you look like a
Speaker 2: really good person. Okay, And now, but and now these
Speaker 2: are alignment coded, So if you're accused of like being
Speaker 2: bad at Marxism, you have to do something like extremely
Speaker 2: Marxist to remove that thing. And now you can now
Speaker 2: you can grow in that direction again. And and that's
Speaker 2: how it worked out. And then maybe there's one more thing,
Speaker 2: so the shifting narrative. You gotta be able to uh
Speaker 2: simulate the shifting narrative too. So now there are add
Speaker 2: the plot cards, right, which which get played in the middle,
Speaker 2: and they alter the game state for everybody. So sometimes
Speaker 2: the competition is mostly cooperative, like like there's some game
Speaker 2: states where where there is not very hostile you accuse people,
Speaker 2: it doesn't really damage you very much. Then there's a
Speaker 2: but then there's the game state called race to the bottom.
Speaker 2: Which is like a nuclear cloud with the angry face.
Speaker 2: And during race to the bottom, people get extremely vicious.
Speaker 2: And when they play the microaggressions against you to actually
Speaker 2: damage you, is you actually lose followers. So things like that,
Speaker 2: and uh, and there are male characters and female characters,
Speaker 2: and like certain game states only the boys can play,
Speaker 2: certain game states only the girls can play, and boys
Speaker 2: have to sit and listen, right like that, So that
Speaker 2: that that was the final state of the game pretty much.
Speaker 1: It's sort of an interesting thing. Uh, you know, the
Speaker 1: the psychology that goes along with with games. You know,
Speaker 1: I can think of I haven't played video games in
Speaker 1: a very long time at least seriously. But you know,
Speaker 1: one of the last games I played a lot on
Speaker 1: the couch, right, couch co op or guess couch multiplayer
Speaker 1: was actually, uh worms. You know, it's sort of like
Speaker 1: Tank Commander right heavily of all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a ton of fun.
Speaker 1: And the whole reason the game was fun it's not
Speaker 1: the actual game, but it's it's the metagame of psychology,
Speaker 1: right of, like the wheeling and dealing of like well wait, wait,
Speaker 1: I've only got one worm left. Don't kick me off
Speaker 1: because I'll screw you next round, Like, how about we
Speaker 1: go together against the guy who's in first place? You
Speaker 1: know that sort of stuff that was entirely exogenous, right,
Speaker 1: it's not really built.
Speaker 2: Into you know, the game itself.
Speaker 1: But that's what I think is interesting about those systems
Speaker 1: is you're, basically, for a fun end, sort of manipulating
Speaker 1: your players into acting differently.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, and should I do the uh okay? And
Speaker 2: then the one that after that. The sequel to uh
Speaker 2: Virtus sim of the game was Virtual Signal Deplorables, which
Speaker 2: is also my my shelf. I'm looking at it right now.
Speaker 2: People kept asking me, He's like, hey, what can we
Speaker 2: make where you make fun of the right left wingers?
Speaker 2: Why don't you make fun of the right wingers? Like
Speaker 2: that might be interesting, That might be interesting, but I'm
Speaker 2: not gonna. They wanted me to just like trash them, right, which,
Speaker 2: so I thought, how can I do this in like
Speaker 2: an interesting way? So I basically made like an entire
Speaker 2: separate mini game of being a groper. Yeah, they're all frogs,
Speaker 2: they're all frogs. This was this was four or five
Speaker 2: years ago. They're all frogs and there's one groper player,
Speaker 2: Like it has to be proportionate. Right, you have to
Speaker 2: have you know, two lib tards to every groper, otherwise
Speaker 2: doesn't work. And his job is to just he's going
Speaker 2: to infiltrate. So you have like these chains running off
Speaker 2: your character card, right, that represents your points. He's gonna
Speaker 2: infustrate those chains, right, and he's got he's got alignments too,
Speaker 2: and he's gonna he's gonna go in there and infiltrate.
Speaker 2: And by that, he's going to build up the toxicity
Speaker 2: level in your chain, right, and when it hits a
Speaker 2: certain level, he can do some epic trologe that that
Speaker 2: earns him points. Every every one of his people that
Speaker 2: you kill of your people that he kills or kills
Speaker 2: you know, quote unquote, Uh, he triggers becomes a trophy
Speaker 2: for him, right, and he's so he wins by acquiring
Speaker 2: trophies from by trolling people. Yeah, that's an interesting thing. Uh,
Speaker 2: And I'm curious.
Speaker 1: I just don't know anything about this this model. Right,
Speaker 1: So when you're when you're kickstarting something, right, obviously you
Speaker 1: know you need money to live. You can illustrate, you
Speaker 1: can do it yourself, but like, what are the economics
Speaker 1: of this, right, Like do you how much do you
Speaker 1: have to and genuinely I'm not trying to get you
Speaker 1: to divulge that, but like, how much does it cost
Speaker 1: to make a video to make a board game?
Speaker 2: A lot? Well, uh, the the setup and the uh
Speaker 2: the cost and printing is mostly the labor, right, The
Speaker 2: paper and the ink cost virtually nothing, so you'll get
Speaker 2: you'll get priced for the labor. So if so, the
Speaker 2: depending on the the the price will scale radically depending
Speaker 2: on like how manuch of their there if there is right,
Speaker 2: so if you make one that the unit price is
Speaker 2: gonna be astronomical, Like if you make a sample. If
Speaker 2: I make a sample, like one board game will cost
Speaker 2: me three hundred dollars, okay, But if the wider the
Speaker 2: the the larger the print run, the the the it
Speaker 2: goes down a lot. So if you make five hundred
Speaker 2: or if you make if I make, say two hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty, the unit price will be about fifteen dollars
Speaker 2: if I make If I make five hundred, it goes
Speaker 2: down to like ten. And if I make thousands, like
Speaker 2: in the case of my first run of Virtue Signal,
Speaker 2: then I think the enterprise is two dollars and then
Speaker 2: sold it for sold it for twenty eight twenty eight
Speaker 2: dollars and says it's just me. I'm doing all the
Speaker 2: writing and the illustrating. Then all of that is profit
Speaker 2: except for well, except for thirty percent which I give
Speaker 2: to which I gave back. When I had promoters, I
Speaker 2: would give that to them. Is I promoted with people,
Speaker 2: they all got canceled except fair fair. I mean, that's
Speaker 2: sort of an interesting, interesting thing of itself, right, is
Speaker 2: sort of the death of the middleman in certain forms
Speaker 2: of media, you know, like you've seen the several times.
Speaker 2: And I say this as a as a podcaster and
Speaker 2: technically is a YouTuber. My stuff ends up on YouTube,
Speaker 2: even if I don't spend a lot of time there.
Speaker 2: The business model, maybe sort of fifteen years ago, right,
Speaker 2: is you wanted to get on on a network.
Speaker 1: Network works a lot like a record label. They would
Speaker 1: do a bunch of stuff for you. But what's interesting is, sorry,
Speaker 1: what's that.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, a few winners, a whole lot
Speaker 2: of losers in that model exactly.
Speaker 1: And people got burnt, they wasted their lives, they they
Speaker 1: got screwed. And we sort of saw several versions of this,
Speaker 1: like the the guys who've been around for long enough
Speaker 1: on the site will remember. You know, Machinima was a
Speaker 1: big one early on. They were intamous for that, and
Speaker 1: you know there were there were dozens of others, right, Uh,
Speaker 1: you know the guys who made Red versus Blue turned
Speaker 1: into that before it exploded. Oh and what's interesting is
Speaker 1: it seems as if that that model is sort of
Speaker 1: going away. Obviously, if you're famous enough, you need a manager,
Speaker 1: right just to tell people now, William, I think neither
Speaker 1: you or I is in danger of.
Speaker 2: Ending up in that position anytime soon. Not soon.
Speaker 1: It'd be nice if we were, but you know so.
Speaker 1: But point is, you can sort of get all of
Speaker 1: the both the benefits and the consequences of getting rid
Speaker 1: of like a middleman.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Like, on one hand, kind of sucks because everything is
Speaker 1: your problem, like you have to do everything, but also
Speaker 1: you get to do everything. I know, it's sort of
Speaker 1: a blessing and it curse there true true.
Speaker 2: Uh. My problem is that as an artist, my solution
Speaker 2: to more most problems in dramare which really isn't the
Speaker 2: solution to most problems. Uh. You kind of want a
Speaker 2: second guy just to have like a guy who doesn't
Speaker 2: think like you you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's very true. Hey, maybe this is a
Speaker 1: dangerous question to ask, but William, are you worried at
Speaker 1: all about like generative AI's regard your work.
Speaker 2: My work? Oh dude, I just I just posted this
Speaker 2: thing that that thing that the Elon's Musk, the cartoon
Speaker 2: that was terrifyingly good. Man. I had a mini freak
Speaker 2: out about that two weeks two days ago.
Speaker 1: I mean, the will Stancil stuff, Like, I didn't think
Speaker 1: it's the funniest thing in the world, but but it's psch.
Speaker 1: It's within spitting distance of like lower end cartoon network shows.
Speaker 2: It's good. And I did kind of a deep dive
Speaker 2: on it on I guess Wednesday to figure out if, like,
Speaker 2: maybe I could use AI to like, you know, on
Speaker 2: my own stuff. Turns out not really. So I fed
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of artwork into Grock, a whole bunch
Speaker 2: of my organs. Okay, make it like this, make it
Speaker 2: like this, and it couldn't do it right. And I
Speaker 2: kept asking you questions and probing, And it turns out
Speaker 2: what happens is when you upload artwork to grock or
Speaker 2: an AI, it will analyze the image, it will describe
Speaker 2: the image and words or I guess on their side
Speaker 2: as data, and then it will go out on the
Speaker 2: internet and find other things that it thinks meets that criteria. Right,
Speaker 2: So it's not actually basing it on my stuff or
Speaker 2: your stuff. So if you have a unique illustration style,
Speaker 2: h A, I can't hurt you and it can't help
Speaker 2: you if you have it an illustration style that is
Speaker 2: very uh. I don't want to say generic, but generic,
Speaker 2: I'll say it, okay, generic like if you want to
Speaker 2: do studio ghibli or like an adult swim style, like
Speaker 2: which what will stancel is that art style is a
Speaker 2: very uh, you know, adult swim cartoon kind of a thing.
Speaker 2: Then yeah, it can find lots of references and can
Speaker 2: cobble together something on that so well.
Speaker 1: And also I feel like from the outside looking in,
Speaker 1: it's even in like even in like ship posting, which
Speaker 1: is the most I've used it for. It's like, okay
Speaker 1: for a certain type of high effort ship posting. It's
Speaker 1: kind of taken in away. But like AI memes are
Speaker 1: not as interesting or as popular as like the old.
Speaker 2: Fashioned type, No they're not.
Speaker 1: They're obviously trash you know, and may change, but like
Speaker 1: to me, it's like, yeah, sure, it will get rid
Speaker 1: of a lot of the like joyless grunt work, like
Speaker 1: in the same way that like low level graphic designers
Speaker 1: have been hit hard by AI because like a handyman,
Speaker 1: business just wants something that looks okay. They don't care
Speaker 1: about something looking you know, perfect. But for someone who
Speaker 1: has a specialty product like you, it's sort of a
Speaker 1: different It doesn't I don't see it feeling that niche
Speaker 1: at least as if yees it probably can't.
Speaker 2: I really tried hard to get it, to get it
Speaker 2: to match my style. Cannot do it. They can't do it. Uh.
Speaker 2: But yeah, but it's interesting you mentioned that because it's uh,
Speaker 2: it's true. Millennials have a very interesting aesthetic. It's very
Speaker 2: interesting to me, and I think about it a lot,
Speaker 2: and it's it's kind of amazing to me that nobody's
Speaker 2: really analyzing that.
Speaker 1: You bring up the memes like go ahead, no, no,
Speaker 1: I think that that's actually an interesting point. I've just
Speaker 1: spent the it had extended weekend in Portland, and Portland
Speaker 1: is sort of like a rent fare for millennials, you know,
Speaker 1: it is it is twenty ten forever there.
Speaker 2: I'm kind of there, and I would say it's nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety seven forever there.
Speaker 1: But yeah, fair enough you could say that the h
Speaker 1: I mean that is the line from Portlandia, right, the
Speaker 1: dream of the nineties is alive in Portland.
Speaker 2: Yes, indeed I graduated in Portland.
Speaker 1: Date Oh wow, yeah, don't go back is my one
Speaker 1: piece of advice. Okay, no, in all series of Portland's
Speaker 1: actually a very nice style. It's just fun to make
Speaker 1: fun of. My point is that I think that esthetic
Speaker 1: vision you're talking about is very identifiable.
Speaker 2: It's not just that. It's not just that you mentioned
Speaker 2: that millennials do not like the polish right, because AI,
Speaker 2: if you're if you're an AI engineer, your goal is
Speaker 2: to make things look polished and cinematic. And I think
Speaker 2: I think millennials are very mistrustful of that, of anything
Speaker 2: that looks like that, and they will intentionally destroy it. Right,
Speaker 2: make the editing choppy, throw on some uh some some
Speaker 2: some deep fried like like VCR lines or or or
Speaker 2: grain to it right, distort the music right, distort, distort
Speaker 2: and slow down the visuals. And this makes it, uh,
Speaker 2: this makes it palatable for millennials just kind of wreck it,
Speaker 2: if that makes sense, wreck that polish, Yeah, well, one
Speaker 2: hundred percent.
Speaker 1: And that is like the esthetics of authenticity, Like I think,
Speaker 1: really this is explosion of podcasting, and obviously there exists
Speaker 1: at the very top of it it kind of like
Speaker 1: ultra polished like New York Times podcasting with you know,
Speaker 1: a million producers. I question how genuinely popular that is
Speaker 1: if it weren't boosted. But like even look at you
Speaker 1: know podcast in the top ten, like yeah, sure Rogan
Speaker 1: has a producer, but the form of it is very
Speaker 1: you know, low fi. Right, it's two guys sitting around
Speaker 1: just talking and there's yeah exactly, there's a level of
Speaker 1: authenticity to that that you can't get with kind of AI.
Speaker 2: Polish, right, yeah, true. And uh well, and also like
Speaker 2: the memes that uh that that are most popular that
Speaker 2: everybody uses, right, like uh just going back to like
Speaker 2: like the like we had very polished, like a very
Speaker 2: professionally drawn memes back in the back in the two thousands,
Speaker 2: but people people prefer the ones that look like they're
Speaker 2: made an MS paint with a mouse.
Speaker 1: Look as someone who has created multiple famous wojacks, which
Speaker 1: is the dumbest thing I ever say, should be compared.
Speaker 1: I drew the Uh, there's a David French wojack that
Speaker 1: I drew. Uh, there's a Dreer one. There's multiple ones
Speaker 1: that have sort of staped containment. Uh, literally all of those.
Speaker 1: I drew with one line weight on my laptop touchpad
Speaker 1: in Microsoft Bait. And I believe a hear that way
Speaker 1: it does.
Speaker 2: It looks funny, it looks more authentic. It looks like
Speaker 2: it's made by a person. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, to make fun of some guy with a you know,
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year job, and
Speaker 1: you know, somehow it makes me feel better that I
Speaker 1: can make.
Speaker 2: Fun of him on Twitter. But uh, can I brag
Speaker 2: for a minute my memes. Of course, you're not gonna
Speaker 2: believe that. You're gonna laugh at me, roof Koreans. I
Speaker 2: invented that fair enough. I believe it.
Speaker 1: I've actually had that moment with with Bog Beef the
Speaker 1: Good Old Boys, a veteran poster where I quoted a
Speaker 1: meme he made to him, you know, because it's just
Speaker 1: one of those great like you know, throwaways, right, and
Speaker 1: they sort of enter the common lexicon. Yeah, I'm not
Speaker 1: surprised by it, William. Unfortunately, I'm gonna have to step
Speaker 1: out a little earlier than normal. I have real world
Speaker 1: obbligations and it has really been an interesting conversation. I'll
Speaker 1: make sure to leave the links to your Kickstarter I.
Speaker 2: Mentioned roof Koreans and you get into the podcast. No,
Speaker 2: but I'm sorry man, I do have to step out early.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately. Where else can people find you? Obviously, other than on.
Speaker 2: X I just look for well, it's dale about William
Speaker 2: my name on x now because I lost so many accounts.
Speaker 2: This is my ninth account insol riot dot com and
Speaker 2: also on the the Antelope Hill website in the board
Speaker 2: game section. That's all me. Well, sure thing. I will
Speaker 2: make sure to link to that again. William.
Speaker 1: Sorry, I had to to let you go early. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: I have a real life. As gay as that sounds.
Speaker 2: But it was great talking to again, and be sure
Speaker 2: to check out his work all right.
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