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Speaker 1: Leaning a light. Man like this, Man, you letting butterfly

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flapping his wing big down in a force. Man, it

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gonna cause a tree fold, letting five thousand miles away. Man,

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nobody see it.

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Speaker 2: Nobody else. Let you see what you don't need? No, man,

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don't you follow? And you got back that? Man? Don't

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black a d on Panama?

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Speaker 1: Man, you don't don't matter?

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Speaker 3: Man anyway?

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Speaker 2: All right? William from in soel Riots Studios. How you

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doing man? Pretty good? Are you? Yeah? I'm doing well.

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Speaker 1: I mean I realized dating your podcast in the first

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twenty seconds, UH is poor form.

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Speaker 2: But if you're wondering less, sir. This is the day

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that the chat feature.

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Speaker 1: On x Scott pushed out, which means that UH, as

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someone whose job it is to basically coordinate things via

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dms on Twitter, today has been a disaster for me.

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Nothing has gone according to plan. But nonetheless are here

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so anyway, man, Obviously this was set up by our

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mutual friends at Antelope Hill.

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Speaker 2: But who are you and what do you do? Who

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am I?

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Speaker 3: And what do I do?

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Speaker 2: My name is William Dale? About just docs myself and

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I make board games. I've been making board games for

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I guess seven eight years now professionally, and before that

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I was a commercial illustrator. I guess we'll get into

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that story at some point. That it all came to

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a screechy halt in twenty sixteen when I backed their

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own candidate for president.

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Speaker 1: And that's sort of an interesting thing. I'm not really

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a board games guy, but I am in areas that

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are kissing cousins, right, Like I sort of grew up

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as a you know, a war gamer. You're playing a

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lot of tabletop RPGs and there's a lot of crossover, right,

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you sort of see the same treatment happening, and uh,

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those faces got just absolutely overrun with like horrible progressive

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types sort of at the same time, slightly earlier even

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than we saw with you know, gaming, which obviously gamer

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Gate is how a lot of people ended up, you know,

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by getting pushed out of mainstream politics.

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Speaker 2: I think they were always there, I think I think

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I think the election brought them out as well, one

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hundred percent. It brought it out.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I was giving a teenager at the time,

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and you know, I had always been interested in kind

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of nerdy at nerdy whatever that means, you know, activities, Uh,

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and obviously to me, in my mind, if there were politics,

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it was sort of like nineties liberal politics, like generally

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be nice to people, you know, authority is generally negative.

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But it was all pretty background stuff, right, I mean,

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that's a very general thing to say.

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Speaker 2: But I guess I guess if you're in high school

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during the nineties, I suppose that's true.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about in the in the mid two thousands,

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like that was the sort of politics that you saw,

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like I'm thinking about like uh like or like sort

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of before fifth edition D and D, you know, for

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for rough context.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, I lost track of D and D after

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second edition. I just just completely ignored it.

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Speaker 1: You didn't miss much.

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Speaker 2: All I have to say about that is some uh

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faco as cancer and uh roll to hit tables are

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the way to go. It's the way God it came

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to be played. It's a fair enough man.

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Speaker 1: So obviously you you you started out on your own,

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what almost ten years ago? Now, Uh, do you want

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to just briefly summarize your your cancelation. We don't need

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to get into the details, but.

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Speaker 2: Oh the cancelation. Sure, yeah, well, I guess you might

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not remember in twenty twelve when you had during when

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elections happened. So me working as a commercial illustrator, right,

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like a freelance I have. I had representation, but you

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know they only shot me like a project like three

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or four times a year if that. So I'm like

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completely on my own, like on the hands and dribble

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and on social media just posting things like to get

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the attention of people. And one really way a good

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way to do that back then is like if a

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really popular franchise came out, like Breaking Bad comes out,

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you do some Breaking Bad fan art and people will

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spread it around because it's a franchise they like. And

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during an election like in the twenty twelve you had,

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like that was a way to do that. You could

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be like I'm an Obama guy or I'm a McCaine guy,

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and uh, I'm a Ron Paul guy, and you you

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do like fan art of your guy, and people who

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also liked your guy like spread your guy around. It's

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a good way to get attention. It's a good way

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to get work. And so that's what I did. I did. Uh,

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I picked I picked Trump as my guy, like very

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on really we way way early in the election back

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when they were like seventeen candidates Republican and it was

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I was working on it during the uh that first

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Fox debate with mecon Kelly, like the Rosie O'Donnell that

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that one and the the mood as hours after I

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posted it. So I posted, I went to bed, and

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I went to and uh I made fan art like

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the spanner of Trump, but I still have it on

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my on my website and stuff. But then I go

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to bed and then I wake up and he the

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narrative has shifted from clown candidate to Hitler and our age.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, everything, And I remember that that was sort

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of a funny, funny like transfer, I guess you were

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talking about, right, the pivot from Donald Trump an inherently

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comedic to he is Orange Hitler Because again, like I

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was in height, like I said, late high school at

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the time, and so you know, when you're like seventeen,

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you're like, this guy's hilarious. He is my favorite presidential

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candidate ever because he, you know, makes fun of people

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on the Internet and says rude things, right, just kind

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of core interests at that stage in life. And you know,

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at first it was sort of this like attitude of like, oh,

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boys will be boys, like whatever, no one cares. But

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then it shifted into you don't know what you're saying,

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You're you're promoting something dangerous. It became even more fun.

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Right obviously there's no career tied to it, but I

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remember exactly that moment you're talking.

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Speaker 2: About it, this sense of becomes fun. Yeah. Oh man,

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it freaks me out how people like like like schools

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of sardines in the water, just the the media shifts

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course and they all shift course and they don't realize

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that they've shifted course, and they say, well, you know

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I was always against You're like you you meet like

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a democrat, wh Well, I always hitted Trump. I always

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knew was a racist, you know all. You know, all

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the way back in the eighties when he was making

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appearances on you know, the Fresh Prince of bel Air

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or whatever, like, No, you didn't. Everybody left him, even you.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's like this is much later in time. But

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do you remember when they made a big deal Disney

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did about editing him out of Home alone too, you know,

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like he remember that.

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Speaker 2: And they just like roll my eyes and keep scrolling

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because there was so much of that. Well, it's weird.

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Speaker 1: And the only reason I remembered this is because like

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that's you know, that's back page news even when it happened.

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But right, you know, last holiday season, I was watching

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it that movie with you know, some family members, and

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it got to the part where you know, Kevin walks

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down the hall and he's supposed to, you know, Donald

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Trump is supposed to point him in the right direction,

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and Dale looked at me like a crazy person. I

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was like, where did Donald Trump scene go? Because admittedly

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that does sound like a crazy thing.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's just a scene. Oh, they'll get Mandela

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if they don't remember it was ever there, And so

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I was easily justified.

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Speaker 1: But to that point where it's like you really can

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just rewrite history through like selective media application, And when

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you're the one guy, you're like, there's no way, I'm crazy,

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Like I remember this happening.

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Speaker 2: Even if something is induging bunchel as that really terrify me.

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But that is one of them, like like's be like

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living with pod people, Like how did they erase that

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part of your brain? How does that work? Why am

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I the only human? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Well man, so obviously you got pushed out as a

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as a commercial illustrator. Uh Ay, I mean look like

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that's a that is a a crowd with a certain culture.

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Perhaps I'll leave it at that.

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Speaker 2: So who do you go next? Yeah, you don't go anywhere.

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It's like, well, let's see, well, what of the options

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are starve to death? That's one. Put a pin in that.

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The other one is, uh, did you starve to death?

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I haven't starved to death yet. We are we are

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operating on much, much less money than we used to.

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But then I thought, well, let's see if I can

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find a new audience, which has been an ongoing Uh.

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I don't want to say struggle, it's it's been very interesting. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So obviously there's at least some crossover with doing you know,

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board games if you can do the art yourself, obviously

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that's a big part of it, especially in the era

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of Ian and you probably know more about this than

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I do, but you're the era of you know, sort

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of bespoke hobbyist board gaming right where you can there's

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an audience for well illustrated, expensive board games.

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Speaker 2: Right, Well, there's that. Okay, but yeah, I what am

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I saying? Uh? Well, as a you know, on an illustrator,

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I've worked with a lot of I had worked with

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a lot of companies and uh, like a lot of

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stuff got printed. I had relationships with a lot of

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factories who made things. You like you do a show,

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uh a convention, right, we need we need our branded

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swag in this location. We need like all the specifications,

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blah blah blah blah. You take it to the printers.

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You know, you know all about the you know how

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to pick the colors and uh, you know and how

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to how to get it all. So, okay, I have

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this skill set. Maybe I can just apply it to something.

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And I also like board games and listen like strategy games,

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so so that works out well. I just I guess

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I was referring to, Uh, I guess I'm very liberal brained,

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if that makes any sense. I'm a liberal brain person

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with conservative values among conservatives, And I don't know, I'm

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just constantly aware of, like how I don't connect with people,

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and how things don't land and help people don't care

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about the same things that I care about.

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Speaker 1: Does that make sense one hundred percent? And like I

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even say that as someone who has right wing politics

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but is not particularly conservative for whatever that term means.

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And I think there is an important difference there, you know, yeah,

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even see this with like Honestly, I think that in

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many ways, current millennial culture is actually quite conservative in

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the sense that they are very interested in maintaining a

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certain type of status quo, like the values handed down

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to them by wider society. They want to preserve those.

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It's just they grew up in, broadly speaking, very left

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wing culture. So I think there's there's important distinction to

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be made there.

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Speaker 2: There as these pseudomorphosis at work. Yes they are the

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millennials are becoming what they are. No, certainly and so.

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Speaker 1: But but so when you're speaking about that, that's sort

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of like, I guess real latitude, right, how does that

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affect your work?

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Speaker 2: I guess, well, it's it seems to me just to

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start out that the political divide right now has less

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to do with politics and more to do with personality.

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Certainly personality types like if you are extremely left brained,

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you're probably a Republican Now, I don't think it would

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be it would have been that way twenty five years ago.

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And if you're extremely right brained, like a creative type,

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you are easily you are very susceptible to imagery and

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emotion and propaganda, and you will be on the left

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currently right brain on the left, left brain on the right.

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So when I approach your project, like I'm really interested

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in like the aesthetics of the thing, right, and I

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find that my audience really isn't like they don't care

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even if they notice. Well, that's always a tough thing.

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Speaker 1: And I noticed this as well someone who's maybe not

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a creative themselves, but it's surrounded myself with creatives, is

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that it's always tough when it's it's like the thing

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you care about, the thing that you want to be perfect,

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has very little determinate value on what you actually need

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the project to do. But it's like I can't let

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it go. It has to be perfect, even in a

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way that doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: Well, on the back of my mind, I tell myself

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that they actually do perceive it, even if they it

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doesn't register, if that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: Like one hundred percent. And actually this is a horrible

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podcasting form. Will what's the game that you've most recently made?

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Speaker 2: Right, because this is what we are supposed.

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Speaker 1: To be talking about twelve minutes into a conversation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you mentioned currently are we are promoting Civil War two,

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which is my most recent release. It is just about

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to cross twelve thousand out of of a goal of

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seventeen thousand, seventy six, which I thought would be immersive,

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very immersive. It is completely an arbitrary number.

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Speaker 1: Fair enough, Yeah, that's what platforms are you using to

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promote that? Because I understand that there are some platforms

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which or friendlier than others.

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Speaker 2: Well, I decided to do it on Kickstarter, which may

256
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have been a mistake. I think they're very I think

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they're very hostile to us. I kind of I got

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it in my mind that this time I would do

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something that would be appealing, appealing to a broader cross

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section of people, and that the curmudgeons that the pearl

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clutches a kick Kickstarter would give me a fair shake

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this time. I think that might have been a mistake.

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Well see, I mean, look, the Kickstarter is still up,

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so it's true. It's still up. Yeah, let's business.

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Speaker 1: Model of Kickstarter, if you will, because I think it's

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actually an interesting thing because I know, well, and here's

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the angle I want to take it. I think this

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is interesting. I think the there's a much heightened skepticism

269
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around crowdfunding than there was ten years ago because of

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well of no good reasons masters.

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Speaker 2: Right, like how do you do it right?

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Speaker 1: Like how do you run a kickstart in a way

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that actually that people can feel like they're not wasting

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their money or they're going to get scamed.

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Speaker 2: Well, I have built up a base over time. I

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have the mailing list. It's got about three thousand people

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on it, former and former and current customers. Most of

278
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it comes from that. I guess I've done done right

279
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by them enough times that they want more. I've got

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to get a lot of repeat buyers, not as many

281
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new ones as I would hope. But as for reasons

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that you say, yes, the kickstarter model is throw up

283
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some slop, take the money and moved Costa Rica. Yeah,

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fair enough.

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Speaker 1: I mean, look it's a goal, right, So that's a

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good answer. And honestly, I think that that's sort of

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the And you see this in any sort of like

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online environment, like I remember forum culture back when that

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still existed, would have like a rep kind of yes

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and no, it's been eaten by social media. So if

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you go to your favorite forms, yeah, like if you

292
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go to your favorite forums, there's just no volume anymore.

293
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You know, a lot of them unfortunately have been fully

294
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killed off, like they don't pay for hosting anymore. But

295
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there's just it's still alive, but not like it used to.

296
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See I think of you know, like the REP system

297
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that used to exist, right just asper to.

298
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Speaker 2: The successor to the successor of the forum that I

299
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ran and used to frequent is Kiwi Farms. And they're fine,

300
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but buying and large. I believe you're correg guess oh.

301
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Speaker 1: That's that's actually really interesting. I had Josh moon on

302
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not too long ago.

303
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Speaker 2: Yeah, very few of them actually remember me. Some of

304
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the posters might. It's all overrun by millennials now.

305
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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean I think with Kiwi Farms, it's

306
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sort of its own, sort of its own thing now,

307
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you know, Like whereas the model for forums, and I

308
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was around for kind of the tail end of it,

309
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but as someone who had specific interest, it was a

310
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great way to collate information. But the reason I brought

311
00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,039
it up, it's not just a reminisce about when the

312
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Internet was more fun, but to say there there was,

313
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you know, either in an informal or formalized REP system,

314
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you know, like you see, like, yeah, your postcount how

315
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people rated you, you could sort of sort information. And

316
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I've talked to other you know, artists who fund their

317
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work via crowdfunding. I think of you know, Matt Cotts,

318
00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:24,680
who's you know, five hundred pages into a graphic novel

319
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:29,680
series now in a decade and uh yeah, stuff's great,

320
00:17:29,799 --> 00:17:32,000
like genuinely great. You. I'm sure you would like it.

321
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,400
It's uh, i'll we'll we talk about it later. But

322
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the uh, that's one of the things he spoke about,

323
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which is that that exact thing of you having people

324
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who have bought your products before having a track rad

325
00:17:44,039 --> 00:17:47,079
record saying you know, here's what I do. I deliver

326
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on time. I'm not gonna scam you, right like that.

327
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That is in a way like building up a customer base.

328
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And uh yeah, that's a very valuable, very valuable tool

329
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,519
for creative right yeah.

330
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Speaker 2: Hey, being honest. Actually, you know, it's it's a good

331
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:09,519
way to live your life. Turns out, Yeah, controversial opinion.

332
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:15,839
Don't want controversial opinion? Yeah yeah, yeah. And now with

333
00:18:16,559 --> 00:18:20,640
just to uh, you know, shout them out as that

334
00:18:20,799 --> 00:18:24,079
would you say it? In hip hop culture? Uh? Uh?

335
00:18:24,279 --> 00:18:29,599
And Lapill they're great, they're great, straight shoot, Yeah.

336
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Speaker 1: And that's the cool thing I was actually, you know,

337
00:18:32,279 --> 00:18:35,319
I was actually talking to uh, you know, the founder

338
00:18:35,319 --> 00:18:38,200
of analy Uphill actually less than a week ago, and uh,

339
00:18:38,559 --> 00:18:40,759
I'm not gonna tell tales out of school obviously, but

340
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that was one of the things that he spoke about

341
00:18:42,839 --> 00:18:44,880
that I thought was really exciting is that he's, you know,

342
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now at a point where he spends a significant amount

343
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,880
of time telling people no, which like, Okay, you could

344
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look at that and say, well, that's bad for those

345
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individual people, but it's exciting from the perspective of, well,

346
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now there is a large amount of well there's obviously

347
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a market to sustain it, but on a secondary level,

348
00:19:03,319 --> 00:19:06,920
now there is a large group of people who maybe

349
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aspirationally want to create for that audience. And you know,

350
00:19:11,839 --> 00:19:14,440
you look back at, you know, a previous model. I

351
00:19:14,559 --> 00:19:17,359
was talking to an author earlier today where your one

352
00:19:17,519 --> 00:19:19,880
choice for getting your workout was you know, the two

353
00:19:20,079 --> 00:19:23,440
big companies in whatever your industry was, Right, You're not

354
00:19:23,519 --> 00:19:25,519
beholden to that anymore. And it means you can do

355
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,880
interesting and exciting things, right, Yes.

356
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,799
Speaker 2: It does. Some of my exciting ideas are still too

357
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:35,799
a radical randal uptil I'm going to work on them.

358
00:19:38,039 --> 00:19:39,279
All right, all right, let's.

359
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Speaker 1: See, So what are your other games? Right, And obviously

360
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,400
we don't need to go into detail, but like you

361
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speak about building up some sort of rapport, so like

362
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,079
how do you do that? How do you get your

363
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initial audience and build from there?

364
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:57,720
Speaker 2: One my first campaign was in twenty seventeen, I think,

365
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,799
I think that's right. Yeah, think twenty seventeen. Oh maybe later,

366
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,079
maybe it's twenty, I don't remember. It's but it was

367
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,160
Virtue sing of the game, which was a game that

368
00:20:08,319 --> 00:20:13,119
I had been working on on the forum that Kiwi

369
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:17,000
Farms is a successor to the Successor too, and I

370
00:20:17,079 --> 00:20:20,839
had been working on for a long time. Which is it?

371
00:20:21,319 --> 00:20:27,960
It simulates the infighting in liberal groups. If if from

372
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,319
the outside it may not be a parent, but inside

373
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those groups they are buckets of cannibal maggots, just devour

374
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each other and climbing, trying to climb to the top. There.

375
00:20:38,559 --> 00:20:42,759
It's a it's it's a very vicious environment. Well maybe

376
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you do. Maybe maybe it disapparent.

377
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they seem to be largely, completely and

378
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,119
totally miserable.

379
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Speaker 2: Right, I mean actly miserable all of the time, terrified

380
00:20:54,519 --> 00:20:56,480
if you step one toe out of line, you know,

381
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,240
the the rest of them will turn on you in

382
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:01,960
a minute. You thought you were your friends. And to

383
00:21:02,079 --> 00:21:06,000
top that off, the narrative is constantly shifting and you

384
00:21:06,079 --> 00:21:09,839
have to pay extremely close attention. This actually isn't a funny.

385
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,680
This is a funny story. I've told this.

386
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've told it all on air before.

387
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,319
This is one hundred percent true. It sounds like made

388
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,000
up bullshit. I've I've been doxed, been docked for a

389
00:21:19,079 --> 00:21:23,240
long time, okay, and uh, literally the week or two

390
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,880
after I was doxed, I was hanging out with some

391
00:21:28,039 --> 00:21:32,119
friends who were the plans had already been made. They

392
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,759
sort of disassociated after the politics changed, you know, but

393
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,000
it was sort of this awkward like everyone knows, but

394
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,880
no one really wants to have the conversation sort of thing.

395
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,359
And we're sitting around playing board games, and of course

396
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,079
the game Secret Hitler is there, and I'm like, all

397
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,599
right that I'm looking at it right now, mylf. Literally,

398
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,000
I've never played this game in my life before. William

399
00:21:54,279 --> 00:21:57,440
the first hand this, there's this kind of uncomfortable, you know,

400
00:21:57,519 --> 00:21:59,359
cloud in the air. I'm there with some friends who

401
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:00,920
were aware of what I am and didn't care who

402
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,759
are kind of on my side? And the hints got

403
00:22:03,759 --> 00:22:06,640
at the beginning, and of course it's Werewolf right or mafia.

404
00:22:06,839 --> 00:22:09,720
You know, there's one guy who's him. Obviously there are

405
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,880
differences to it. But for people who don't know, you're

406
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,640
looking for secret Hitler, right, and uh literally the first round,

407
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:21,119
I'm secret Hitler and I'm like, oh no, this has

408
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,039
just happened. It's happened twice, right first, this tragedy then

409
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,559
is farse right, I have the literal Nazi in their midst,

410
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,759
I don't know which was just like incredibly odd the nose.

411
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:33,720
But I think that that is sort of a you know,

412
00:22:33,759 --> 00:22:38,039
an interesting counterpoint, right of like their their game is

413
00:22:38,799 --> 00:22:41,759
rooting out the Nazi, you know, like that's the that's

414
00:22:41,799 --> 00:22:44,839
the ha ha, funny edgy party joke or party game rather,

415
00:22:45,079 --> 00:22:47,279
And I think that sort of indicates an interesting bit

416
00:22:47,319 --> 00:22:48,160
of psychology there.

417
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Speaker 2: And if there is no Nazi, you must create a

418
00:22:51,519 --> 00:22:53,799
Nazi from one of you. Yeah, someone's got to be

419
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,119
crucify him. Yes, somebody has to be crucified all the time.

420
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,559
And if nobody is a parent, right, if there's nobody,

421
00:22:59,599 --> 00:23:03,359
if you have to find somebody. It's got to be

422
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,079
somebody you got to root them out for some reason,

423
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,039
and you got to crucify that person. It's got to

424
00:23:08,079 --> 00:23:12,079
happen on a regular basis, right, So the game simulates that.

425
00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,960
And I had no experience doing a Kickstarter. I had

426
00:23:18,039 --> 00:23:22,200
no experience like with the I had no advertising or

427
00:23:22,279 --> 00:23:24,359
marketing set up. I just threw it up on Kickstarter,

428
00:23:24,599 --> 00:23:30,440
and by the third day we were trending number seven

429
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,680
across the entire site. I mean, that's not bad for

430
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,400
a first attempt, right, it's pretty good for a first attempt.

431
00:23:36,559 --> 00:23:39,000
Like I didn't. It stresses me out like things like that.

432
00:23:39,079 --> 00:23:40,799
So I wasn't paying attention. But I had like a

433
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,799
friend slash partner. He's like, hey, like we're going We're

434
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,680
number seven, Like oh in BAM's no across the whole site. Wow.

435
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,200
And people start giving me, calling me up and I

436
00:23:51,319 --> 00:23:54,680
got noticed by the Feds and a whole bunch of stuff,

437
00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:01,440
and then then Kickstarter that obanned me hard. As soon

438
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:03,400
as as soon as I hit funding, I set the

439
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,839
goal of forty thousand dollars, extremely ambitious for a board

440
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:12,920
game period, let alone a first time, and oh wait, no, no, no, no,

441
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,720
I said it a twenty five thousand and forty thousands

442
00:24:15,759 --> 00:24:19,440
what we ended up making. So I hit funding like

443
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,000
in the first week or something like that, and then

444
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:28,759
they bam, they brought the hammer down and we were last.

445
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,039
We were last on the entire site, like after people

446
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,319
with no pledges, the dead last, which is just great.

447
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 1: I mean again, it's like the very aggressive response from tech.

448
00:24:40,519 --> 00:24:43,720
It's sort of moderated slightly, but it bears repeating, right,

449
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,359
very yeah, one hundred percent. It's like, look, just like,

450
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,839
send a corporate hit team and paint my brains all

451
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,960
over the wall. At least then it's like direct, you know,

452
00:24:52,319 --> 00:24:55,039
instead of this like corporate HR approved way of making

453
00:24:55,079 --> 00:24:58,480
me go away. But in all seriousness, is someone who's

454
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,720
you know, played board games quite often, but wouldn't really

455
00:25:01,759 --> 00:25:04,640
consider myself a board gamer. What goes into the actual

456
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,359
process of designing a game from the ground.

457
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 2: Oh, good question, nobody's actually I never asked me that.

458
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:18,759
Lots of revisions, I guess you start with that's a

459
00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:21,039
good question. I was not ready to answer that question.

460
00:25:22,799 --> 00:25:26,480
It's finding the game in real life, if that makes sense,

461
00:25:26,519 --> 00:25:31,440
and identifying games that are interesting right, games with them

462
00:25:31,599 --> 00:25:34,799
that are layers that appear to be self contradictory, if

463
00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:35,319
that makes sense.

464
00:25:35,839 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 1: Hmmm, so do you start Do you start with sort

465
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,960
of like an initial I guess even say loop or

466
00:25:41,079 --> 00:25:44,799
like an initial like concept and iterate from there or

467
00:25:44,799 --> 00:25:47,160
are you looking for a more complicated idea? Again saying

468
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,720
this is someone who's never designed a board game, I

469
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,599
started out with, Okay, how do we simulate this? So

470
00:25:52,799 --> 00:25:55,079
it went through, Uh, well, I'll do virtual single because

471
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:57,759
I think that went through the most revisions.

472
00:25:59,519 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 2: We're going to you. It's a contest to develop like

473
00:26:04,519 --> 00:26:06,599
your liberal virtue. It's a race. Okay, we'll start it

474
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,240
out as a race. So I thought, okay, we can

475
00:26:10,279 --> 00:26:13,960
start out like Millbourns are familiar with. It's an auto

476
00:26:14,039 --> 00:26:16,799
racing game where you just like put down miles. You

477
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:22,200
count up miles right, and and then other people can

478
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,000
put hazards on. You can inhibit you by putting it

479
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,720
on a hazard. You clear the hazard, and then you

480
00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:29,960
keep putting down miles. It's extremely simple game, not terribly fun,

481
00:26:30,839 --> 00:26:33,960
very very luck based. So I had that for a while.

482
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,880
It was just like a liberal count count count count

483
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,279
count count counter of liberal points like this could be better,

484
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,240
So instead of one counter, we're gonna make four counters.

485
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:49,759
We're gonna divide it up into suits, red, yellow, green,

486
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:54,039
and blue, and they will represent One will be feminism,

487
00:26:54,160 --> 00:27:00,880
one will be LGBT stuff, another one will be uh economics,

488
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:05,039
and then there will be politics. So politics is blue

489
00:27:06,599 --> 00:27:10,880
virtue within the Democratic Party. Economics has read how Marxist

490
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:12,480
start you and no like LGPD stuff and then the

491
00:27:12,559 --> 00:27:18,359
feminist stuff and okay, rather than in generic points, maybe

492
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,519
these points can represent something within that thing. So now

493
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,480
instead of having like generic numbers, all the cards are

494
00:27:25,519 --> 00:27:28,119
going to be unique. It set a very high bar.

495
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,279
All the cards are going to be unique, and they're

496
00:27:30,279 --> 00:27:35,319
going to be all individually illustrated. Okay, So all right,

497
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:40,359
so I am an influencer now and I am my

498
00:27:40,519 --> 00:27:44,119
points are people? Okay, and then and they're just going

499
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,039
to go in a stack and go okay, maybe there's

500
00:27:47,039 --> 00:27:51,039
something better than going in a stack. Maybe I could

501
00:27:51,079 --> 00:27:54,480
do it like like Dominos or people accuse me of

502
00:27:54,599 --> 00:27:57,480
like ripping off Illuminati. I didn't. Actually, it really did

503
00:27:57,559 --> 00:28:00,920
start out as a Millbourne's game. What if like they

504
00:28:01,079 --> 00:28:03,759
I put my card down on the table and then

505
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,599
like these different people like all the all the all

506
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,319
the all the points used to be points. Now they

507
00:28:09,319 --> 00:28:13,519
represent people. There are your followers, and they influence other people. Right,

508
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,880
So supposing I'm the communist influencer right with, there are

509
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,200
a couple of them, uh, I forget his name, but

510
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,880
and I have like mostly like red valances on my cards.

511
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,799
Like I'll attract all the communist guys, but those guys

512
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,839
may have friends who are may have a Democrat sympathies,

513
00:28:31,839 --> 00:28:33,680
and they may have friends who are Democrats. So I can,

514
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:35,480
I can, I can get those guys, and then I

515
00:28:35,519 --> 00:28:38,519
can start adding. Right, so you add, you start with

516
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,519
like a red card, and then you add some red

517
00:28:40,559 --> 00:28:42,480
followers which have some blue valances on the end. They

518
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,960
can touch blue cards to those and uh and and

519
00:28:45,079 --> 00:28:47,279
branch off from there. So now it becomes strategic instead

520
00:28:47,319 --> 00:28:52,519
of just being a running count. And then the hazards

521
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,519
which used to be against the uh the character personally. Again,

522
00:28:57,599 --> 00:29:00,279
this is just like Millboy's where you have a flat

523
00:29:00,359 --> 00:29:04,480
tire and then the remedy is to get a spare tire.

524
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,319
So in the in virtue signal, you will have the microaggression. Right,

525
00:29:09,359 --> 00:29:12,720
this is the this is the competition part. You you

526
00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:15,160
accuse somebody a micro of a microaggression, you slap the

527
00:29:15,359 --> 00:29:17,880
microaggression card on them or on their on one of

528
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,480
their followers, and this hinders your your liberal virtue. And

529
00:29:22,559 --> 00:29:24,359
the only way to get out of that is to

530
00:29:24,759 --> 00:29:29,160
with a virtue signal. Right, some uh some some expression

531
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,160
of liberal piety that makes no sense and doesn't actually

532
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,480
help any everything anybody, but makes you look like a

533
00:29:34,519 --> 00:29:37,079
really good person. Okay, And now, but and now these

534
00:29:37,119 --> 00:29:41,920
are alignment coded, So if you're accused of like being

535
00:29:42,039 --> 00:29:44,079
bad at Marxism, you have to do something like extremely

536
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,839
Marxist to remove that thing. And now you can now

537
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,599
you can grow in that direction again. And and that's

538
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,119
how it worked out. And then maybe there's one more thing,

539
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,119
so the shifting narrative. You gotta be able to uh

540
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,079
simulate the shifting narrative too. So now there are add

541
00:30:04,119 --> 00:30:07,359
the plot cards, right, which which get played in the middle,

542
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:13,480
and they alter the game state for everybody. So sometimes

543
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:23,640
the competition is mostly cooperative, like like there's some game

544
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,079
states where where there is not very hostile you accuse people,

545
00:30:27,079 --> 00:30:30,039
it doesn't really damage you very much. Then there's a

546
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,640
but then there's the game state called race to the bottom.

547
00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,519
Which is like a nuclear cloud with the angry face.

548
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,000
And during race to the bottom, people get extremely vicious.

549
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,400
And when they play the microaggressions against you to actually

550
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,640
damage you, is you actually lose followers. So things like that,

551
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,759
and uh, and there are male characters and female characters,

552
00:30:49,839 --> 00:30:52,240
and like certain game states only the boys can play,

553
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,640
certain game states only the girls can play, and boys

554
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,839
have to sit and listen, right like that, So that

555
00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:59,960
that that was the final state of the game pretty much.

556
00:31:02,079 --> 00:31:04,759
Speaker 1: It's sort of an interesting thing. Uh, you know, the

557
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,279
the psychology that goes along with with games. You know,

558
00:31:08,359 --> 00:31:10,480
I can think of I haven't played video games in

559
00:31:10,519 --> 00:31:13,480
a very long time at least seriously. But you know,

560
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,960
one of the last games I played a lot on

561
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,519
the couch, right, couch co op or guess couch multiplayer

562
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,079
was actually, uh worms. You know, it's sort of like

563
00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:24,640
Tank Commander right heavily of all.

564
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:26,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, a ton of fun.

565
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: And the whole reason the game was fun it's not

566
00:31:29,559 --> 00:31:33,000
the actual game, but it's it's the metagame of psychology,

567
00:31:33,599 --> 00:31:35,680
right of, like the wheeling and dealing of like well wait, wait,

568
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,160
I've only got one worm left. Don't kick me off

569
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,519
because I'll screw you next round, Like, how about we

570
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,960
go together against the guy who's in first place? You

571
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,759
know that sort of stuff that was entirely exogenous, right,

572
00:31:46,759 --> 00:31:47,880
it's not really built.

573
00:31:47,759 --> 00:31:49,839
Speaker 2: Into you know, the game itself.

574
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: But that's what I think is interesting about those systems

575
00:31:52,519 --> 00:31:56,640
is you're, basically, for a fun end, sort of manipulating

576
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,400
your players into acting differently.

577
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, and should I do the uh okay? And

578
00:32:04,359 --> 00:32:07,720
then the one that after that. The sequel to uh

579
00:32:08,119 --> 00:32:10,240
Virtus sim of the game was Virtual Signal Deplorables, which

580
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:12,000
is also my my shelf. I'm looking at it right now.

581
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,119
People kept asking me, He's like, hey, what can we

582
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,480
make where you make fun of the right left wingers?

583
00:32:17,519 --> 00:32:19,000
Why don't you make fun of the right wingers? Like

584
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,279
that might be interesting, That might be interesting, but I'm

585
00:32:22,319 --> 00:32:25,200
not gonna. They wanted me to just like trash them, right, which,

586
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:27,200
so I thought, how can I do this in like

587
00:32:27,279 --> 00:32:30,759
an interesting way? So I basically made like an entire

588
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:39,960
separate mini game of being a groper. Yeah, they're all frogs,

589
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,920
they're all frogs. This was this was four or five

590
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,640
years ago. They're all frogs and there's one groper player,

591
00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:47,799
Like it has to be proportionate. Right, you have to

592
00:32:47,839 --> 00:32:51,480
have you know, two lib tards to every groper, otherwise

593
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:56,480
doesn't work. And his job is to just he's going

594
00:32:56,519 --> 00:32:58,920
to infiltrate. So you have like these chains running off

595
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,680
your character card, right, that represents your points. He's gonna

596
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,920
infustrate those chains, right, and he's got he's got alignments too,

597
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:07,599
and he's gonna he's gonna go in there and infiltrate.

598
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,960
And by that, he's going to build up the toxicity

599
00:33:10,079 --> 00:33:12,839
level in your chain, right, and when it hits a

600
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,680
certain level, he can do some epic trologe that that

601
00:33:17,839 --> 00:33:20,920
earns him points. Every every one of his people that

602
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,279
you kill of your people that he kills or kills

603
00:33:24,359 --> 00:33:28,240
you know, quote unquote, Uh, he triggers becomes a trophy

604
00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:31,440
for him, right, and he's so he wins by acquiring

605
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:37,759
trophies from by trolling people. Yeah, that's an interesting thing. Uh,

606
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:39,279
And I'm curious.

607
00:33:39,279 --> 00:33:42,559
Speaker 1: I just don't know anything about this this model. Right,

608
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,960
So when you're when you're kickstarting something, right, obviously you

609
00:33:47,039 --> 00:33:49,079
know you need money to live. You can illustrate, you

610
00:33:49,119 --> 00:33:52,559
can do it yourself, but like, what are the economics

611
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,720
of this, right, Like do you how much do you

612
00:33:54,799 --> 00:33:56,559
have to and genuinely I'm not trying to get you

613
00:33:56,599 --> 00:33:59,160
to divulge that, but like, how much does it cost

614
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:00,880
to make a video to make a board game?

615
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 2: A lot? Well, uh, the the setup and the uh

616
00:34:08,119 --> 00:34:11,920
the cost and printing is mostly the labor, right, The

617
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:15,159
paper and the ink cost virtually nothing, so you'll get

618
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,960
you'll get priced for the labor. So if so, the

619
00:34:20,559 --> 00:34:25,199
depending on the the the price will scale radically depending

620
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,159
on like how manuch of their there if there is right,

621
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,159
so if you make one that the unit price is

622
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:33,800
gonna be astronomical, Like if you make a sample. If

623
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:35,960
I make a sample, like one board game will cost

624
00:34:36,039 --> 00:34:41,480
me three hundred dollars, okay, But if the wider the

625
00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:45,519
the the larger the print run, the the the it

626
00:34:45,639 --> 00:34:49,639
goes down a lot. So if you make five hundred

627
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,440
or if you make if I make, say two hundred

628
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,440
and fifty, the unit price will be about fifteen dollars

629
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,199
if I make If I make five hundred, it goes

630
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:01,920
down to like ten. And if I make thousands, like

631
00:35:02,039 --> 00:35:05,559
in the case of my first run of Virtue Signal,

632
00:35:05,639 --> 00:35:09,440
then I think the enterprise is two dollars and then

633
00:35:09,519 --> 00:35:12,159
sold it for sold it for twenty eight twenty eight

634
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,559
dollars and says it's just me. I'm doing all the

635
00:35:15,559 --> 00:35:18,599
writing and the illustrating. Then all of that is profit

636
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,719
except for well, except for thirty percent which I give

637
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:27,719
to which I gave back. When I had promoters, I

638
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:32,880
would give that to them. Is I promoted with people,

639
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,320
they all got canceled except fair fair. I mean, that's

640
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:39,320
sort of an interesting, interesting thing of itself, right, is

641
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,840
sort of the death of the middleman in certain forms

642
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:46,039
of media, you know, like you've seen the several times.

643
00:35:46,559 --> 00:35:48,320
And I say this as a as a podcaster and

644
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,199
technically is a YouTuber. My stuff ends up on YouTube,

645
00:35:51,199 --> 00:35:52,519
even if I don't spend a lot of time there.

646
00:35:53,159 --> 00:35:58,960
The business model, maybe sort of fifteen years ago, right,

647
00:35:59,079 --> 00:36:01,159
is you wanted to get on on a network.

648
00:36:02,079 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 1: Network works a lot like a record label. They would

649
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,880
do a bunch of stuff for you. But what's interesting is, sorry,

650
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:09,159
what's that.

651
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, a few winners, a whole lot

652
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,119
of losers in that model exactly.

653
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 1: And people got burnt, they wasted their lives, they they

654
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,639
got screwed. And we sort of saw several versions of this,

655
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,760
like the the guys who've been around for long enough

656
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,400
on the site will remember. You know, Machinima was a

657
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,400
big one early on. They were intamous for that, and

658
00:36:28,639 --> 00:36:30,960
you know there were there were dozens of others, right, Uh,

659
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,440
you know the guys who made Red versus Blue turned

660
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:38,760
into that before it exploded. Oh and what's interesting is

661
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,519
it seems as if that that model is sort of

662
00:36:41,639 --> 00:36:44,360
going away. Obviously, if you're famous enough, you need a manager,

663
00:36:44,559 --> 00:36:47,800
right just to tell people now, William, I think neither

664
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:49,559
you or I is in danger of.

665
00:36:49,679 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 2: Ending up in that position anytime soon. Not soon.

666
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,039
Speaker 1: It'd be nice if we were, but you know so.

667
00:36:55,199 --> 00:36:57,519
But point is, you can sort of get all of

668
00:36:57,599 --> 00:37:00,599
the both the benefits and the consequences of getting rid

669
00:37:00,639 --> 00:37:02,159
of like a middleman.

670
00:37:02,599 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 2: Right.

671
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: Like, on one hand, kind of sucks because everything is

672
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,760
your problem, like you have to do everything, but also

673
00:37:09,119 --> 00:37:10,920
you get to do everything. I know, it's sort of

674
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,360
a blessing and it curse there true true.

675
00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:20,119
Speaker 2: Uh. My problem is that as an artist, my solution

676
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,760
to more most problems in dramare which really isn't the

677
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,920
solution to most problems. Uh. You kind of want a

678
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,360
second guy just to have like a guy who doesn't

679
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,159
think like you you know what I mean?

680
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's very true. Hey, maybe this is a

681
00:37:35,679 --> 00:37:38,239
dangerous question to ask, but William, are you worried at

682
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,960
all about like generative AI's regard your work.

683
00:37:42,559 --> 00:37:47,159
Speaker 2: My work? Oh dude, I just I just posted this

684
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:51,079
thing that that thing that the Elon's Musk, the cartoon

685
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,280
that was terrifyingly good. Man. I had a mini freak

686
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:55,639
out about that two weeks two days ago.

687
00:37:56,199 --> 00:37:58,159
Speaker 1: I mean, the will Stancil stuff, Like, I didn't think

688
00:37:58,159 --> 00:38:00,559
it's the funniest thing in the world, but but it's psch.

689
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,519
It's within spitting distance of like lower end cartoon network shows.

690
00:38:04,639 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 2: It's good. And I did kind of a deep dive

691
00:38:08,679 --> 00:38:11,639
on it on I guess Wednesday to figure out if, like,

692
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,360
maybe I could use AI to like, you know, on

693
00:38:15,559 --> 00:38:20,800
my own stuff. Turns out not really. So I fed

694
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:22,920
a whole bunch of artwork into Grock, a whole bunch

695
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,639
of my organs. Okay, make it like this, make it

696
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,320
like this, and it couldn't do it right. And I

697
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,639
kept asking you questions and probing, And it turns out

698
00:38:31,679 --> 00:38:37,000
what happens is when you upload artwork to grock or

699
00:38:37,039 --> 00:38:41,920
an AI, it will analyze the image, it will describe

700
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,039
the image and words or I guess on their side

701
00:38:45,039 --> 00:38:47,159
as data, and then it will go out on the

702
00:38:47,199 --> 00:38:53,280
internet and find other things that it thinks meets that criteria. Right,

703
00:38:53,599 --> 00:38:56,440
So it's not actually basing it on my stuff or

704
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:58,760
your stuff. So if you have a unique illustration style,

705
00:39:00,599 --> 00:39:04,480
h A, I can't hurt you and it can't help

706
00:39:04,519 --> 00:39:07,719
you if you have it an illustration style that is

707
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:11,880
very uh. I don't want to say generic, but generic,

708
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,480
I'll say it, okay, generic like if you want to

709
00:39:14,519 --> 00:39:18,639
do studio ghibli or like an adult swim style, like

710
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:20,880
which what will stancel is that art style is a

711
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,880
very uh, you know, adult swim cartoon kind of a thing.

712
00:39:25,639 --> 00:39:27,719
Then yeah, it can find lots of references and can

713
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,480
cobble together something on that so well.

714
00:39:30,519 --> 00:39:34,639
Speaker 1: And also I feel like from the outside looking in,

715
00:39:36,559 --> 00:39:41,480
it's even in like even in like ship posting, which

716
00:39:41,519 --> 00:39:44,800
is the most I've used it for. It's like, okay

717
00:39:45,119 --> 00:39:47,760
for a certain type of high effort ship posting. It's

718
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,639
kind of taken in away. But like AI memes are

719
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,800
not as interesting or as popular as like the old.

720
00:39:53,639 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 2: Fashioned type, No they're not.

721
00:39:56,639 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 1: They're obviously trash you know, and may change, but like

722
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,280
to me, it's like, yeah, sure, it will get rid

723
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:07,440
of a lot of the like joyless grunt work, like

724
00:40:07,519 --> 00:40:10,599
in the same way that like low level graphic designers

725
00:40:10,639 --> 00:40:13,039
have been hit hard by AI because like a handyman,

726
00:40:13,159 --> 00:40:15,960
business just wants something that looks okay. They don't care

727
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,239
about something looking you know, perfect. But for someone who

728
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,599
has a specialty product like you, it's sort of a

729
00:40:21,639 --> 00:40:24,280
different It doesn't I don't see it feeling that niche

730
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,199
at least as if yees it probably can't.

731
00:40:29,519 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 2: I really tried hard to get it, to get it

732
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,039
to match my style. Cannot do it. They can't do it. Uh.

733
00:40:36,559 --> 00:40:40,639
But yeah, but it's interesting you mentioned that because it's uh,

734
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:44,199
it's true. Millennials have a very interesting aesthetic. It's very

735
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:45,880
interesting to me, and I think about it a lot,

736
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,159
and it's it's kind of amazing to me that nobody's

737
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:52,559
really analyzing that.

738
00:40:53,599 --> 00:40:57,599
Speaker 1: You bring up the memes like go ahead, no, no,

739
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,480
I think that that's actually an interesting point. I've just

740
00:41:00,559 --> 00:41:04,639
spent the it had extended weekend in Portland, and Portland

741
00:41:04,679 --> 00:41:06,719
is sort of like a rent fare for millennials, you know,

742
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,199
it is it is twenty ten forever there.

743
00:41:09,679 --> 00:41:11,760
Speaker 2: I'm kind of there, and I would say it's nineteen

744
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:12,639
ninety seven forever there.

745
00:41:12,679 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 1: But yeah, fair enough you could say that the h

746
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,039
I mean that is the line from Portlandia, right, the

747
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,480
dream of the nineties is alive in Portland.

748
00:41:20,639 --> 00:41:24,079
Speaker 2: Yes, indeed I graduated in Portland.

749
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:28,280
Speaker 1: Date Oh wow, yeah, don't go back is my one

750
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:32,320
piece of advice. Okay, no, in all series of Portland's

751
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,199
actually a very nice style. It's just fun to make

752
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,400
fun of. My point is that I think that esthetic

753
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,320
vision you're talking about is very identifiable.

754
00:41:41,639 --> 00:41:45,079
Speaker 2: It's not just that. It's not just that you mentioned

755
00:41:45,119 --> 00:41:50,119
that millennials do not like the polish right, because AI,

756
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:52,840
if you're if you're an AI engineer, your goal is

757
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,719
to make things look polished and cinematic. And I think

758
00:41:57,159 --> 00:42:02,480
I think millennials are very mistrustful of that, of anything

759
00:42:02,559 --> 00:42:09,320
that looks like that, and they will intentionally destroy it. Right,

760
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,800
make the editing choppy, throw on some uh some some

761
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,840
some deep fried like like VCR lines or or or

762
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:25,079
grain to it right, distort the music right, distort, distort

763
00:42:25,119 --> 00:42:27,960
and slow down the visuals. And this makes it, uh,

764
00:42:28,119 --> 00:42:30,840
this makes it palatable for millennials just kind of wreck it,

765
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:37,719
if that makes sense, wreck that polish, Yeah, well, one

766
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:38,199
hundred percent.

767
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:42,679
Speaker 1: And that is like the esthetics of authenticity, Like I think,

768
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,920
really this is explosion of podcasting, and obviously there exists

769
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:48,840
at the very top of it it kind of like

770
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,480
ultra polished like New York Times podcasting with you know,

771
00:42:52,519 --> 00:42:56,480
a million producers. I question how genuinely popular that is

772
00:42:56,599 --> 00:42:59,280
if it weren't boosted. But like even look at you

773
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,639
know podcast in the top ten, like yeah, sure Rogan

774
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,320
has a producer, but the form of it is very

775
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,519
you know, low fi. Right, it's two guys sitting around

776
00:43:08,679 --> 00:43:12,239
just talking and there's yeah exactly, there's a level of

777
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,880
authenticity to that that you can't get with kind of AI.

778
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:22,039
Speaker 2: Polish, right, yeah, true. And uh well, and also like

779
00:43:22,119 --> 00:43:24,760
the memes that uh that that are most popular that

780
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:30,920
everybody uses, right, like uh just going back to like

781
00:43:31,079 --> 00:43:35,159
like the like we had very polished, like a very

782
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,639
professionally drawn memes back in the back in the two thousands,

783
00:43:39,679 --> 00:43:43,000
but people people prefer the ones that look like they're

784
00:43:43,119 --> 00:43:44,639
made an MS paint with a mouse.

785
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,159
Speaker 1: Look as someone who has created multiple famous wojacks, which

786
00:43:49,159 --> 00:43:51,800
is the dumbest thing I ever say, should be compared.

787
00:43:53,639 --> 00:43:58,159
I drew the Uh, there's a David French wojack that

788
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:02,639
I drew. Uh, there's a Dreer one. There's multiple ones

789
00:44:02,679 --> 00:44:05,840
that have sort of staped containment. Uh, literally all of those.

790
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,119
I drew with one line weight on my laptop touchpad

791
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,199
in Microsoft Bait. And I believe a hear that way

792
00:44:13,639 --> 00:44:13,920
it does.

793
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:15,519
Speaker 2: It looks funny, it looks more authentic. It looks like

794
00:44:15,559 --> 00:44:17,360
it's made by a person. Yeah.

795
00:44:17,559 --> 00:44:20,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, to make fun of some guy with a you know,

796
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,639
two hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year job, and

797
00:44:24,119 --> 00:44:25,880
you know, somehow it makes me feel better that I

798
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:26,320
can make.

799
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,159
Speaker 2: Fun of him on Twitter. But uh, can I brag

800
00:44:29,199 --> 00:44:32,440
for a minute my memes. Of course, you're not gonna

801
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,480
believe that. You're gonna laugh at me, roof Koreans. I

802
00:44:34,559 --> 00:44:37,400
invented that fair enough. I believe it.

803
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,199
Speaker 1: I've actually had that moment with with Bog Beef the

804
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:46,599
Good Old Boys, a veteran poster where I quoted a

805
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,599
meme he made to him, you know, because it's just

806
00:44:49,639 --> 00:44:51,840
one of those great like you know, throwaways, right, and

807
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,559
they sort of enter the common lexicon. Yeah, I'm not

808
00:44:54,639 --> 00:44:57,920
surprised by it, William. Unfortunately, I'm gonna have to step

809
00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:59,880
out a little earlier than normal. I have real world

810
00:45:00,039 --> 00:45:04,360
obbligations and it has really been an interesting conversation. I'll

811
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,760
make sure to leave the links to your Kickstarter I.

812
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:09,840
Speaker 2: Mentioned roof Koreans and you get into the podcast. No,

813
00:45:12,199 --> 00:45:14,000
but I'm sorry man, I do have to step out early.

814
00:45:14,079 --> 00:45:18,360
Speaker 1: Unfortunately. Where else can people find you? Obviously, other than on.

815
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 2: X I just look for well, it's dale about William

816
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,360
my name on x now because I lost so many accounts.

817
00:45:24,679 --> 00:45:30,440
This is my ninth account insol riot dot com and

818
00:45:32,559 --> 00:45:35,960
also on the the Antelope Hill website in the board

819
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,119
game section. That's all me. Well, sure thing. I will

820
00:45:39,159 --> 00:45:41,760
make sure to link to that again. William.

821
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 1: Sorry, I had to to let you go early. Unfortunately,

822
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:46,440
I have a real life. As gay as that sounds.

823
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:48,800
Speaker 2: But it was great talking to again, and be sure

824
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:50,760
to check out his work all right.

825
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,639
Speaker 3: Recreational drugs can give you a different buzz, but they

826
00:46:23,679 --> 00:46:27,239
can all impair your driving. Some drugs can slow down

827
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:33,320
your reactions, leaving you prone to error. Other drugs can

828
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,199
make you more aggressive, aggressive, more aggressive, and overconfident behind

829
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:38,760
the wheel, so you make drug drive too fast and

830
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:43,079
take dangerous risks. Drug driving can endanger you, your passengers

831
00:46:43,119 --> 00:46:46,519
and other road users. Never ever drive under the influence

832
00:46:46,559 --> 00:46:49,519
of drugs. A message from the Road Safety Authority visit

833
00:46:49,639 --> 00:46:50,519
RSA dot I e