WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:29.280 The of, the of, the the the, the, the dot 2 00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:30.039 to the. 3 00:00:32.240 --> 00:00:32.439 Day. 4 00:02:31.439 --> 00:03:58.680 Fo you gottle dottle bodn't brittle poopoo, Papa Papa. 5 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:03.199 This is the Elon my song. I love it. It's 6 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:11.800 become my favorite song. This is that South South Africa mix. 7 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:22.560 This that there's that Elon South Africa mix. Then it 8 00:04:22.600 --> 00:04:27.519 comes up with that emotional orchestral and then we get 9 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:33.399 some drops and fat beats. Oh right, yet I'm joking. 10 00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:37.040 Actually this song is the worst. I can't stand that song. 11 00:04:37.360 --> 00:04:45.240 Oh that's the that's that Elon mix right there. Yeah, 12 00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:49.639 I muted on Twitter because I was listening to them 13 00:04:49.800 --> 00:04:54.839 hype beats from DJ Elon and the South Africa South 14 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:59.959 Africa boys. That's that South Africa mix. Then' that South 15 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:04.439 Africa mixed boy, which doesn't make sense because that's that's 16 00:05:04.519 --> 00:05:08.160 a that's a Jamaican accine broader. 17 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:12.800 That the Jamaican accent rad Yeah what you're doing, thesis, 18 00:05:13.680 --> 00:05:14.680 you're ra sister. 19 00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:21.680 Me go to pet turtle. It is ureases. 20 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:22.839 Me. 21 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:26.319 Grind up the turtle, make him into a powder on 22 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:36.040 smoking men. Smoke the turtle. Everything you faking? Yeah, why 23 00:05:36.240 --> 00:05:36.800 are you gay? 24 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:42.120 This is the Island mix the South Africa Island mix 25 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:44.160 me go to nice and sweating. 26 00:05:44.279 --> 00:05:50.800 Now, why are you gay? You are gay? What's up? 27 00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:53.240 What's up? 28 00:05:56.240 --> 00:06:05.959 Open Forum debates what's happening to redeem zoomer Well. I 29 00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:09.439 suspect he is at the stage that many of us 30 00:06:10.120 --> 00:06:13.199 have gone through. Many of us got to the point 31 00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:18.920 where we started to wonder if Protestantism might itself just 32 00:06:19.079 --> 00:06:21.680 not be correct. So I think that's where he's at. 33 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:25.279 He said today, I would like to announce I'm giving 34 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:28.959 up Protestant apologetics. It's the biggest waste of time of 35 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:33.079 my life. I haven't defended Protestanism one bit. I've only 36 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:36.040 made people leave Protestanism. Seeing how bad I was at it, 37 00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:43.199 I think that it was a noble attempt. I think 38 00:06:43.279 --> 00:06:49.959 that it's just Protestantism. RZ. It's not your fault. I'm 39 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:53.240 annoyed at smarter Protestants who could have helped me, and 40 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:56.279 they didn't want to create YouTube channels. They were armchair quarterbacks. 41 00:06:56.879 --> 00:06:59.199 I realized that Protestanism is the currency, is not something 42 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:01.360 that I can defend, that can be defended with a 43 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:03.800 straight face. It's a joke. So I'm going to go 44 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:08.959 defend institutional Protestanism. Well, if Protestism is a thing that's 45 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:11.839 stupid to defend, it's even dumber to go and defend 46 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:13.839 it in the institution, which is the thing that you're 47 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:20.120 admitting is weak, anti intellectual, and corrupt. If you want 48 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:25.560 to convert to Catholic, Oriental or Orthodox, I can't say 49 00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:28.399 I prove, but I also can't blame you. So he's 50 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:30.759 at I think the stage that many of us enter. 51 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:35.199 So pray for redem Zoomer to become Orthodox. I suspect, 52 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:40.600 given the commitment to Calvinism, that he will. Okay, I'll 53 00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:47.560 fix the volume that he will see anytime I go 54 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:52.279 on stream yard stream yards, people's streams automatically puts the 55 00:07:52.360 --> 00:07:56.399 volume low. So that's why, so you have to go 56 00:07:56.519 --> 00:07:58.560 in and change it every time because it's too bid streammarks. 57 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:03.480 But so rz is at the state we're all I 58 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:06.839 suspect because of the commitment within Calvinism to Augustinian is 59 00:08:06.839 --> 00:08:10.120 some predestination that he will not, at any point soon 60 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:15.759 wants to give up the Augustinian stuff, and I suspect 61 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:20.000 that would lead him if he did leave Protestantism to 62 00:08:20.199 --> 00:08:24.680 Rome unfortunately. But pray for him. Maybe he will maybe 63 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:27.199 he will come more in our direction. You what hit 64 00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:29.319 like and share. Welcome everybody. We're going to open it 65 00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:34.679 up to debates, discussions topics. Personally, I've been reading through 66 00:08:34.799 --> 00:08:39.440 Jeremiah again. Usually when I finish Isaiah, I go to Jeremia. 67 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.120 I've been I've been cycling through the profits, the major 68 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:46.279 profits in the last couple of years, and then I'll 69 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:49.919 do Ezekiel again. So a lot of that stays fresh 70 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:51.720 in my mind, and that tends to be pretty good 71 00:08:51.799 --> 00:09:00.799 for regular interactions with Muslims, with evangelical, dispensationalists, protest minded people, 72 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:03.519 people who don't think the Trinity is sought in the 73 00:09:03.559 --> 00:09:08.879 Old Testament, and also the Psalms. So I'm reading back through. 74 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:10.799 I'm up to Psalm I don't know what, forget what 75 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:17.440 Psalm twenty or so I'm at Jeremiah thirty five or six, 76 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:23.360 and then I'll probably do Ezekiel again. And part of 77 00:09:23.399 --> 00:09:26.480 the goal for that is to really have these major 78 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:30.399 profits fresh in my mind, and I find that cycling 79 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:33.360 through them over and over it really helps them to 80 00:09:33.480 --> 00:09:40.200 be ingrained in my mind. A particular note was the 81 00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:47.200 insights in Jeremiah thirty one. It is different in the 82 00:09:47.399 --> 00:09:51.360 Orthodox Bible because it's the subtuagen. So the chapters in Jeremiah, 83 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:53.840 as you may or may not know, or number differently, 84 00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:57.320 so this will get very confusing. Jeremiah thirty one in 85 00:09:57.519 --> 00:10:02.799 the propt Bible is Jeremiah thirty eight ish in the 86 00:10:03.080 --> 00:10:09.200 Orthodox Bible because of the septuagen But of course the 87 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:11.960 most this is one of the most famous passages. And 88 00:10:12.039 --> 00:10:13.679 I was just thinking of this in terms of both 89 00:10:13.879 --> 00:10:18.879 Islam and Judaism, that we are told that the emergence 90 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:24.279 of the Messiah is signified by a new Covenant, which 91 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:26.919 is interesting because if you think of the Jews, Jews 92 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:29.759 are always the mosaic Covenant is the pinnacle, it will 93 00:10:29.799 --> 00:10:33.480 never go away. And yet we're told in Jeremiah's day 94 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:36.960 that a new Covenant is coming that is not according 95 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:41.360 to the Covenant of Sinai. I'm sure Jews have all 96 00:10:41.480 --> 00:10:44.879 kinds of ways that they would interpret that. But also 97 00:10:44.960 --> 00:10:49.159 replies it applies to Muslims because Muslims assume that they 98 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:54.519 are the finality of the divine revelation of the One 99 00:10:54.559 --> 00:10:58.200 True God and that Muhammad was the last of the prophets. 100 00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:03.159 Yet there is nothing in Islam akin to covenant theology, 101 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:06.360 the entire Bible, the entire structure of the Bible. Something 102 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:11.000 that Judaism at least and Christianity have in common because 103 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:14.000 of the Torah and the prophets in common is the 104 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:17.440 notion of God relating to his people via a covenant relationship. 105 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:20.480 And so we have a new covenant again here, and 106 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:27.679 Jeremiah thirty one discusses this and the eternality of the 107 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:30.399 seed of Israel, the eternality of the life of the 108 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:35.399 Messiah when this new Covenant comes, and then it's also 109 00:11:35.480 --> 00:11:41.240 spoken of again after Jeremiah buys a field and prays 110 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:43.600 for understanding, all of which is a type and a 111 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:48.120 symbol of the land and the restoration. The restoration, of course, 112 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:52.720 ultimately is when the Messiah comes and restores Israel in 113 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:55.399 the sense of creating the new Israel, the new Covenant, 114 00:11:55.720 --> 00:12:01.159 the spiritual Israel, which Israel in the land in history 115 00:12:01.279 --> 00:12:06.320 is a type symbol foreshadowing. But both Jeremiah thirty one 116 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:11.399 and thirty three are very insightful in terms of this 117 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:16.960 new Covenant and what it's explained in Jeremiah thirty three. 118 00:12:19.279 --> 00:12:22.360 The new Covenant that we're talking of here with these 119 00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:28.320 priests and ministers, and the seed of David my servant 120 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:33.639 and his ministers is akin to the eternality of the 121 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:38.720 covenant with night and day, or the covenant of Genesis 122 00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:41.679 in the creation of the world. So the very creation 123 00:12:41.840 --> 00:12:44.960 of the world in Genesis is covenantal. And then of 124 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:49.799 course this also is closely linked to the Noeic Covenant, 125 00:12:49.879 --> 00:12:53.039 where God speaks of a lot of elements within nature 126 00:12:53.679 --> 00:12:56.720 that signs seasons. My covenant with nature will not depart. 127 00:12:56.799 --> 00:13:00.679 So this is at once a reference back to Genesis 128 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:05.600 and to Noah into the New Covenant as well as 129 00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:10.559 a reference to the Davidic Covenant. And what's fascinating about 130 00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:14.799 Jeremi I thirty one and thirty three is the contrast 131 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:19.240 to the Mosaic Covenant. Now that does not mean the 132 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:24.240 Mosaic Covenant is something that we don't consider as part 133 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:27.360 of the covenantal structure. It's just that in terms of 134 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:31.720 the newness of the Covenant, when the Messiah comes, it 135 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:37.519 will specifically not be exactly like the Mosaic Covenant, as 136 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:40.159 Jeremi I thirty one said, not according to the Covenant 137 00:13:40.200 --> 00:13:43.679 of Sinai, but will there will be a likening to 138 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:50.360 and a referencing to Genesis and Noah, the Adamic Covenant 139 00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:53.919 and the Noaic Covenant. That is why in jeremi Em 140 00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:58.120 excuse me, in the Acts fifteen, when the apostles are 141 00:13:58.200 --> 00:14:01.039 discussing the means by which JENTI would be brought into 142 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:04.960 this very covenant that you see here in Jeremiah, it's 143 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:08.200 on the basis of the requirements in the Noea Covenant. 144 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:12.840 When the Jerusalem Council meets an next fifteen, they discuss, Look, 145 00:14:12.960 --> 00:14:17.639 if Noah could be made righteous without circumcision, because this 146 00:14:17.799 --> 00:14:22.759 is centuries prior to Abraham, thank you, then we ought 147 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:26.679 not require of gentile converts anything more than was required 148 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:34.240 in the Noea Covenant. If Noah was righteous, then that's 149 00:14:34.279 --> 00:14:40.320 good or no, right, that's the decision that they're now. 150 00:14:40.559 --> 00:14:44.279 Are they just making this up based up no Jeremiah 151 00:14:44.440 --> 00:14:48.440 is rarely referenced in terms of Acts fifteen, But if 152 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:53.159 you read Jeremiah consistently through chapter by chapter, even in 153 00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:57.639 the Masoretic text, you can see that that's the pattern 154 00:14:57.720 --> 00:14:59.879 here of the description of the New Covenant. And again, 155 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.120 oftentimes we look at Jeremiah thirty one because it's so 156 00:15:03.279 --> 00:15:07.919 famous for the New Covenant statement, but we forget. Jeremiah 157 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:10.960 thirty three is also part of that discourse of this 158 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:16.320 section of Jeremiah, and it also links the Dividic Covenant 159 00:15:17.200 --> 00:15:19.759 back to Genesis and to Noah. So what we're seeing 160 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:23.679 is that even in the Old Testament there's a continuity 161 00:15:23.720 --> 00:15:29.559 of the covenants. Now it's true again, the continuity here 162 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:36.399 is contrasting the Mosaic Covenant in some aspects, but not totally. 163 00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:38.759 So we're not totally saying, oh the no, the Mosaic coven, 164 00:15:38.799 --> 00:15:42.200 it doesn't matter anymore. You'll notice in Jeremiah thirty one 165 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:47.960 it does say that the Messiah will have the levites 166 00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:51.519 and priests that minister to him. In the Orthodox Church, 167 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:55.240 we think that's the priest, so that's the diaconate. That is, 168 00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:59.080 there's still continuity. Jesus says, not even a jot or 169 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:02.279 tittle in the law away until all things are fulfilled. 170 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:07.919 So how we keep those laws, the ceremonial laws and 171 00:16:07.960 --> 00:16:10.159 so forth of the Mosaic coven in the New Testament 172 00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:14.759 for the Gentiles, we still keep them, but we keep 173 00:16:14.799 --> 00:16:17.000 them in a spiritual way, the way that they're intended 174 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:20.279 to be kept for all time. We think and not 175 00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:24.639 for the limited temporal scope which they did legitimately have 176 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:28.679 for a time when the nation of Israel served its 177 00:16:28.840 --> 00:16:33.240 historical purpose, which was to produce the Messiah. So in 178 00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:36.080 this way we see a continuity of all the covenants, 179 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:38.879 even though there is an element of contrast between Mosaic 180 00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:44.159 and Messiah's Covenant. Here we see that there's a continuity 181 00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:48.360 of God's relationship to human beings in history. Thus, to 182 00:16:48.559 --> 00:16:51.759 bring it not just in contrast to Judaism, but in 183 00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:57.120 contrast to Islam. Notice how out of accord with all 184 00:16:57.159 --> 00:17:01.639 of the historical relationships a relationship that God has with 185 00:17:01.720 --> 00:17:07.799 human beings through covenants, Islam is So you've heard me 186 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:11.480 bring this up in debates. Where's the priesthood, where's the altar, 187 00:17:11.799 --> 00:17:15.799 where's the temple, where's the sacrifice? Where's any of that? 188 00:17:16.440 --> 00:17:22.400 In Islam? They're they're clueless, They're lost. Danielle says, well, 189 00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:24.960 we kind of have like in moms and mosque that 190 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:27.079 has nothing to do with what we're talking about. It's 191 00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:29.559 like not even a that's like a pale, not even 192 00:17:29.680 --> 00:17:35.400 close similarity. There there has to be some form of 193 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:40.200 continuity of priesthood, of covenantal relationship and that's why the 194 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:43.319 New Testament is very clear. Paul says to the Corinthians, 195 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:47.400 all of the promises of the Covenant, that's a covenant reference. 196 00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:50.640 We got these wine what are these these wine moms 197 00:17:50.720 --> 00:17:55.799 over here, escape to discovery, cove on these ads. What 198 00:17:55.839 --> 00:17:59.599 does that have to do with Bible Gateway? Like does 199 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:04.359 this suddenly there's a wine mom market for the ads 200 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:06.640 over here? But anyway, so you get. The point is 201 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:10.880 that the more fluent we are with the Old Testament, 202 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:13.440 with the law of the Profits, etc. The better and 203 00:18:13.559 --> 00:18:17.240 easier it is to see the absurdity, the discontinuity, the 204 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:22.519 ad hoc nature of Islam. Yeah, Daniel's like, well, we 205 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:25.319 have emoms, Okay, that's nothing. That's not a priest dude, 206 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:29.480 what are you talking about? But do you see the 207 00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:34.039 covenantal structure Jeremiah thirty one, Jeremia thirty three. References to Genesis, 208 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:39.960 references to Noah, references by extension to Abraham, references to 209 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:44.759 Moses and the Mosaic Covenant, and references to the Dividic covenants. 210 00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:47.920 So those are all the covenants. Then we have the 211 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.079 finality of all of those. All of the covenants are 212 00:18:51.160 --> 00:18:54.599 yay in him. Paul says that means they're all fulfilled 213 00:18:54.640 --> 00:19:03.000 in Christ. This, by extension, also confronts and refutes dispensationalism. 214 00:19:05.799 --> 00:19:07.640 So do you see how all of these dumb errors 215 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:14.880 and heresies, when we start to understand the cohesive, connected 216 00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:18.039 narrative of the Bible, ends up refuting all of these 217 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:22.799 dumb errors. Whether it's the Judaic error or whether it's 218 00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:27.519 the Islamic error or the dismensationless error, they all get refuted. 219 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:31.519 And by extension, you could even argue they refute Protestantism 220 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:37.039 because Protestantism ends up ahistorical, not historically linked to any 221 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:43.440 altered temple, priesthood sacrifice. In fact, Protestantism is actually premised 222 00:19:43.519 --> 00:19:49.440 on rejecting those very things. So just some things that 223 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:54.240 came to me as I've been rereading Jeremiah. Obviously there's 224 00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:56.640 many more things in Jeremiah that's not That's just one 225 00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:02.519 thing that popped out to me recently. And by the way, 226 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:06.279 it also gives a crystallogical meaning. Did you notice this 227 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:10.640 to all the other covenants? In other words, the Adamic Covenant. 228 00:20:10.759 --> 00:20:15.200 When Paul exegutes the Adamic Covenant, how does he explain it? 229 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:15.359 Oh? 230 00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:18.519 He says, Christ is the new Atom. So in other words, 231 00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:21.480 we should have a chrystological interpretation of the covenant with Adam. 232 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:23.480 And by the way, there is a covenant with Adam. 233 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:26.599 It's said to be a covenant in the minor prophets, 234 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:31.640 my covenant with Adam in the nowaic covenant. You think, well, 235 00:20:31.680 --> 00:20:34.359 that's just a covenant of God's providence in nature, regularity 236 00:20:34.400 --> 00:20:37.640 in nature. Oh, but it's also chrystological. Doesn't the New 237 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:41.160 Testament give that a crystall logical interpretation? The arc is 238 00:20:41.200 --> 00:20:46.319 the church. No one's like Christ, et cetera. Abraham, Well, 239 00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:50.119 that's obviously in Paul's letters and the epistles Galatians. Right, 240 00:20:50.920 --> 00:20:54.880 even in Hebrews, the Gospel was preached beforehand to the forefathers. 241 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:57.960 The Gospel is preached to Abraham, Paul says a Galatians. Again, 242 00:20:58.160 --> 00:21:05.440 continuity here, and see consistency. Each covenant builds on the 243 00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:09.920 previous one. And even if when the Messiah comes, he 244 00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:12.200 by his authority, because he's the one that gave the 245 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:16.240 law to Moses. Even if he says, some of these 246 00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:19.720 things are fulfilled because I have now come, that doesn't 247 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:24.039 mean we're arbitrarily throwing out the Old Testament laws like 248 00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:31.559 Messianic Jews think, or like dismiss we are Protestant seven 249 00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:34.920 day avn is or something think or Bryson and his 250 00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:36.160 goofy gris what that is? 251 00:21:36.319 --> 00:21:36.880 What that is? 252 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:37.759 What that is? 253 00:21:37.960 --> 00:21:38.519 What that is? 254 00:21:38.839 --> 00:21:38.960 Right? 255 00:21:39.119 --> 00:21:40.200 Bryson's nonsense? 256 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:41.680 Uh? 257 00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:47.119 Anyway, whoever else, Because he's the Messiah, he has the 258 00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:49.720 authority to say, these are the elements that are fulfilled. 259 00:21:50.279 --> 00:21:53.200 And remember, even with this is something everybody misses that 260 00:21:53.279 --> 00:21:58.119 doctor Branson brings up. I brought this up too. Even 261 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:03.240 Jews understand that not every aspect of the law was 262 00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:09.920 for all of the gentiles. So Hebrew roots people and 263 00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:17.559 other would be objectors don't even understand the Jewish view 264 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:22.519 of the law. I mean, you can't even keep the 265 00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:24.359 first of all, you can't keep all the walls anyway, 266 00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:27.680 but you can't even keep the land law. How is 267 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:33.240 the how is a gentile a thousand years later? And 268 00:22:35.880 --> 00:22:36.240 or now? 269 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:37.400 Like? 270 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:40.279 How am I supposed to keep land walls? Am I 271 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:43.480 supposed to keep the Jubilee laws? This is crazy. Obviously, 272 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.200 the intention for this religion to be universal, which is 273 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:52.000 an intention the Messiah will come and the worship of 274 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:54.400 the God of the Jews will be made universal. Okay, well, 275 00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:58.720 how could that happen if literally all aspects of the 276 00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:02.799 Mosaic law we're intended for the entire world. Obviously it's 277 00:23:02.839 --> 00:23:04.680 not and Jews don't even believe that. That's what I'm 278 00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:08.079 trying to say. And ironically, what's the Jewish answer? Oh, 279 00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:13.480 all the Noah Hyde laws. Well, isn't that interesting that 280 00:23:13.640 --> 00:23:17.160 in Acts fifteen that's what the Christians already chose to do. 281 00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:19.759 The apostles who were Jews chose to do that in 282 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:23.799 Acts fifteen. And I'm not equating Acts fifteen identically to 283 00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:27.680 the Rabbinical idea of Noa Hyde laws. You get my 284 00:23:27.720 --> 00:23:30.960 point though, anyway, So if we understand these things, we 285 00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:33.920 begin to see how oh it and then actually a 286 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:39.160 lot of this is just totally refutes Islam, Rabbinic Judaism, 287 00:23:40.359 --> 00:23:43.799 weird Protestant deviations and sex. So we're going to open 288 00:23:43.880 --> 00:23:46.079 it up. It's open for him. That means that you 289 00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:49.400 can you can ask a question if you want. You 290 00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:52.200 don't have to debate, but I do give priority to 291 00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:54.759 people who want to present an argument and would like 292 00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:58.200 to present some form of debate. If you would like 293 00:23:58.319 --> 00:24:01.200 to make if you say, hey, I want to make 294 00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:04.640 several minute argument here, let me make my case. I 295 00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:07.920 will let you do that. I will not interrupt unless 296 00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:12.160 you start making fallacies or say something really ridiculous and stupid. 297 00:24:13.079 --> 00:24:15.160 Then I will interrupt you and bring you back to 298 00:24:15.279 --> 00:24:18.960 the point. If we are going back and forth, it 299 00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:21.279 is my channel, it is my stream. I will interrupt 300 00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:25.160 you if I want to, if you especially are making 301 00:24:25.240 --> 00:24:29.240 dumb arguments, fallacies, red herrings, or whatever. Now I think 302 00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:32.319 we had a Catholic guy who has popped up here. First, Drego, 303 00:24:33.799 --> 00:24:35.039 Ivan Drago, what's up. 304 00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:46.039 Man, Jay, what's happened? Yes, sir, Yeah, I just caught 305 00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:47.400 the tail end here. 306 00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:50.319 It's super interesting because I run into well you mentioned 307 00:24:50.359 --> 00:24:51.640 Bryson and a lot. 308 00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:52.880 Of people in that movement as well. 309 00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:56.799 I think one of the caveats they say is that, oh, 310 00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:59.880 you know, some of these laws are contingent upon their 311 00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:03.519 a temple. So that's the reason they don't apply because 312 00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:04.319 there is an a temple. 313 00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:07.079 But you wait, once the temple comes back, you better 314 00:25:07.119 --> 00:25:08.839 get your goats ready because you're going to have to 315 00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:10.400 start doing some sacrifices. 316 00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:15.200 Well again, like you know, you have all of these 317 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:19.880 prophecies like among the nations, my name will be great, 318 00:25:20.039 --> 00:25:23.359 and my incense will be offered to my name among 319 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:26.200 the gentiles. Right like the minor prophets, those are clearly 320 00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:31.640 Messianic prophecies that extend the altar and the incense and 321 00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:36.319 the priesthood outside of the limitations of physical Israel. How 322 00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:40.279 is that possible? Isaiah in two or three places mentions 323 00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:44.400 gentile priests, how is that even possible? And so Bryson 324 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:47.680 has actually missed the very point of the coming of 325 00:25:47.720 --> 00:25:51.839 the Messiah, which is to bring the Melchizedekian priesthood, which 326 00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:56.319 the author of Hebrews says very clearly in chapter seven 327 00:25:56.519 --> 00:26:00.000 is superior to the Iaronic priesthood. So Bryson is actually 328 00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:01.119 really just a retard. 329 00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:06.279 Well, yeah, I don't I don't understand now the milk 330 00:26:06.279 --> 00:26:08.440 because at that point gets rationalized. 331 00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:10.240 But but there, you know, there is a way that 332 00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:11.200 they rationalize it. 333 00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:15.119 What you know one, So I've got it pretty in 334 00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:17.480 depth with this because I was shocked when I first 335 00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:19.880 heard you know this, you need to follow mosaic law stuff, 336 00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:21.839 and I'm like, there's no way, like the scriptures can 337 00:26:21.880 --> 00:26:24.200 support it. But then there, you know, they have enough 338 00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:27.559 of like acrobatics. And I mean in some sense, actually, 339 00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:29.279 I mean fair enough, when Christ said I don't want 340 00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:30.119 to destroy the law. 341 00:26:30.440 --> 00:26:32.279 You know, I'm not going to abolish the law. 342 00:26:32.759 --> 00:26:34.759 I mean, there is a lot of rhetorical force, and 343 00:26:35.079 --> 00:26:39.920 they have an interpreted interpretive framework where there is some 344 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:43.440 merit to their lens from a Bible alone perspective, which 345 00:26:43.480 --> 00:26:47.160 obviously we rejected that the sol scripture concept. But looking 346 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:50.000 into history, I'm like, well, it seems like the fathers 347 00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:53.519 actually debated this, and it wasn't until like Augustin and Jerome, 348 00:26:53.559 --> 00:26:56.319 when they had letters back and forth, they finally. 349 00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:57.799 Agreed on the role of the Mosaic law. 350 00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:01.279 Because in the pro mosaic side, Jesus followed the law. 351 00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:04.920 You had the early Apostles, the Disciples, the first generation 352 00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:07.720 of Christians seemingly followed the Mosaic law. 353 00:27:08.279 --> 00:27:10.440 And so I mean, do you think that. 354 00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:14.680 I mean, I don't mean to be contentious, but I 355 00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:16.799 don't think that's true at all. The idea that the 356 00:27:16.920 --> 00:27:19.400 Church had not settled this issue until the fourth century 357 00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:22.279 with Roman and Augustine, I think is pretty preposterous. I 358 00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:25.279 think that the Letter of Hebrews solved this issue. I 359 00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:28.559 think that within the Book of Acts itself, Paul had 360 00:27:28.599 --> 00:27:31.920 to struggle to really convince people, even like Peter, that 361 00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:35.240 his position was the correct one. You know, God had 362 00:27:35.319 --> 00:27:39.480 to send Peter three visions about the food laws and 363 00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:42.240 that the dietary laws were not applicable to gentiles, and 364 00:27:42.319 --> 00:27:45.359 that they were symbolic. And that's why throughout Paul's epistles 365 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:48.000 he's constantly having to stress this, whether it's Galatians, whether 366 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:50.839 it's Hebrews, or whether it's you know, his his arguments 367 00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:53.599 with Peter. No, it is this is not something that's 368 00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:58.119 quote settled by the fourth century Latin Church fathers. The 369 00:27:58.440 --> 00:28:01.720 remnants I think of this. The latest, in my opinion, 370 00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:06.920 would be the Quartodscaminarian controversy, which has elements of a 371 00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:10.400 holdover of Jewish calendar dates. That's probably the latest that 372 00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:13.880 I would say, you could you could find this judaizing tendency, 373 00:28:14.440 --> 00:28:18.319 and that's like, you know, one eighty one is the 374 00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:25.279 latest because Aeronais rebukes Pope Saint Victor over the trying 375 00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:28.319 to force one tradition tradition over the whole church, which 376 00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:32.960 was concerning the Quartodessemonarian controversy. So just with a New 377 00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:36.480 Testament execusis itself. No, I think that this issue is 378 00:28:36.640 --> 00:28:41.119 settled by the time of Late within the Book of 379 00:28:41.160 --> 00:28:43.160 Acts and Paul's later epistles. 380 00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:46.799 Well, do you might even though I agree with you 381 00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:49.079 that you know we're not found by the mosaic law? 382 00:28:49.160 --> 00:28:51.200 Can I offer a steel man here? Because I've gotten 383 00:28:51.240 --> 00:28:54.279 pretty I pushed back. I've quoted the Peter vision, I've 384 00:28:54.319 --> 00:28:55.880 quoted all this stuff, and can I give you a 385 00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:56.680 steel man of what? 386 00:28:56.799 --> 00:28:59.920 They would say, Well, you can, absolutely, But I would 387 00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:03.519 point out that I did debate Bryson, so I'm familiar 388 00:29:03.559 --> 00:29:06.240 with some of their positions. They Oh, yeah, I did 389 00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:08.119 about a three hour debate with Bryson. You can look 390 00:29:08.160 --> 00:29:10.359 that up. But yeah, go ahead, I. 391 00:29:10.359 --> 00:29:10.920 Gotta look at it. 392 00:29:11.000 --> 00:29:12.960 Yeah, I mean the Peter's vision, right a rise, kill 393 00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:17.680 and eat rightly after that vision, you know, he says, well, 394 00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:21.000 the purpose is to you know, point to not separating 395 00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:21.559 yourself from. 396 00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:23.640 The gentiles, which, of course is like, well. 397 00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:26.359 Why would God use the means of having you eat 398 00:29:26.480 --> 00:29:29.039 the animals if he wasn't fine with it? But they're 399 00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:31.400 saying that the problem is that the Jews of the 400 00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:38.119 day took the priestly rules and they made them requirements. 401 00:29:37.559 --> 00:29:39.920 For like being a true Jew or salvation. 402 00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:43.799 Right, so like even with the circumcision, their reframe of 403 00:29:43.880 --> 00:29:47.680 back fifteen Council of jerusalemess to say not that circumcision 404 00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:52.480 is abolished, but that it's not required to become one 405 00:29:52.519 --> 00:29:53.240 of God's people. 406 00:29:53.319 --> 00:29:56.279 But once you are God's people, you should follow the law. 407 00:29:56.599 --> 00:29:59.079 And I know it sounds a little bit of like acrobatics, 408 00:29:59.119 --> 00:29:59.799 but but that'. 409 00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:04.839 I mean if you took maybe that in isolation from acts, okay, maybe, 410 00:30:05.000 --> 00:30:10.279 but look, we have Paul's epistles many times over Colossians Timothy, 411 00:30:11.160 --> 00:30:13.680 for example, Paul says to Timothy, right, nothing in itself 412 00:30:13.759 --> 00:30:17.720 is unclean, but rather all meats are clean when they 413 00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:19.960 are sanctified by the word of God and prayer. For 414 00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:23.519 Simothy four to five in Colostionans, he talks about how, look, 415 00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:27.720 circumcision or uncircumcision means nothing. In fact, baptism is the 416 00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:33.240 new circumcision, and circumcision had no ability to do anything. Baptism, 417 00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:37.000 Paul says, is the power of regeneration. So they're so 418 00:30:37.160 --> 00:30:41.480 foolish is to not even understand that baptismal regeneration disproves 419 00:30:42.000 --> 00:30:45.279 their idea about continuing to do circumcisions Paul saying that 420 00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:48.839 it's not just that the Old Testament rituals and rights 421 00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:52.160 were symbolic, it's also that the rights of the New 422 00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:56.160 Testament actually bring the grace they signify, whereas the rights 423 00:30:56.200 --> 00:30:59.000 of the Old Testament pointed to the New Testament rights. 424 00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:02.200 So what does circuits decision point two? Water baptism? So 425 00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:04.759 it would be a reversion, which is what the entire 426 00:31:05.160 --> 00:31:07.359 argument of the look of Hebrews is, to go back 427 00:31:07.400 --> 00:31:10.160 to doing the rituals that are signs and symbols of 428 00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:13.440 the realities that have come in this case, namely water baptism. 429 00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:17.400 Yeah, well, I agree with you. 430 00:31:17.559 --> 00:31:20.200 So I well, I mean what would they say to 431 00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:23.240 first Timothy four and five that foods are not unclean? 432 00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:27.000 In fact, foods aren't made clean by the work by praying. 433 00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:31.720 Yeah, I'd have to review my notes on that, fair enough. 434 00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:32.799 I know. 435 00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:36.319 A big pivot is they always backtrack to, well, you 436 00:31:36.440 --> 00:31:39.079 had the mission that you had these extra pharaistical laws 437 00:31:39.160 --> 00:31:41.079 and like the washing of hands, because even like in 438 00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:42.119 Mark was. 439 00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:47.079 It Mark seven where there's about cleanliness and. 440 00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:51.559 You know, yeah, I'd have to go back to specifically 441 00:31:51.559 --> 00:31:54.599 and the Timothy thing one reference I'll say though, it's 442 00:31:54.640 --> 00:31:57.519 a pretty powerful organization in this movement. It's called one 443 00:31:57.559 --> 00:32:01.440 one nine Ministries, and they have really strong rhetorical chops 444 00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:02.160 and frankly, I. 445 00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:03.759 Mean they do have some scholarship stuff. 446 00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:09.440 They they have the alternative interpretation on every challenging scripture. 447 00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:11.559 So I'll go back, I'll see what they have to 448 00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:12.440 say about the first time. 449 00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:14.240 Well, I mean, what's what I mean, the whole Book 450 00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:17.759 of Hebrews really is, you know, geared towards pointing out 451 00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:20.160 that now that the realities have come, to go back 452 00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:24.279 to the shadows which are types. Is absurd. So I mean, 453 00:32:24.680 --> 00:32:29.000 just just the whole purpose of two epistles in the 454 00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:32.960 New Testament are directed towards refuting the Judaizing heresy. So 455 00:32:33.079 --> 00:32:35.839 the fact that they would even attempt to like this 456 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.119 is like, I mean, this is as silly as saying, 457 00:32:38.319 --> 00:32:42.519 you know, like the New Testament doesn't teach the deep Christ. 458 00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:44.880 I mean, there's like so many passages that the deal with, 459 00:32:45.079 --> 00:32:47.079 I mean, the Gospel of John is all about the 460 00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:49.880 deed of Christ. So it's to me it's as absurd 461 00:32:50.519 --> 00:32:53.079 to say that, you know, we've got to keep these 462 00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:55.720 ceremonial laws and another indicator, by the way that these 463 00:32:55.720 --> 00:32:59.000 people are heretical sects is that many of them, like 464 00:32:59.119 --> 00:33:02.200 Bryson did, they don't teach the duty of Christ. I mean, 465 00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:03.960 that's a pretty good indicator that you're dealing with a 466 00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:06.200 heretical sect. What do they and they don't want to 467 00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:08.119 talk about that. So if you go watch my bryceon debate, 468 00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:10.559 I bring this up and it makes him mad and 469 00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:11.960 he explicitly says, I don't. 470 00:33:11.799 --> 00:33:13.200 Want to talk about that. We are supposed to be 471 00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:15.200 that we need to bate Net, we need debate Deity. 472 00:33:16.119 --> 00:33:20.079 We're supposed to debate only his interpretation of Matthew five. 473 00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:24.720 And my point is that like, if your sect is true, 474 00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:26.319 you would at least. 475 00:33:26.200 --> 00:33:28.720 Get the weightier matters of the law, like the deity 476 00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:31.960 of Christ, correct over these things. And what do they do, 477 00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:34.720 like every sect do they want to focus on these 478 00:33:34.839 --> 00:33:38.640 kinds of bodily washings and stupid stuff what Paul calls 479 00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:41.759 the beggarly elements of this world over the more important 480 00:33:41.799 --> 00:33:42.759 doctrines of the Trinity. 481 00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:48.200 Well, right, But I think that that points to the 482 00:33:48.279 --> 00:33:51.200 limitations of like the Sola scripture of framework. 483 00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:54.160 Anyway, because arguably, if all you have is a Bible. 484 00:33:54.359 --> 00:33:58.839 You can't necessarily come to the conclusion of trinity and 485 00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:01.279 the deity of Christ with the Scripture alone, like you 486 00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:04.839 needed the authority of the Church, the Apostolic hand up. 487 00:34:04.839 --> 00:34:08.000 I mean, I disagree with that totally, because Jesus holds 488 00:34:08.079 --> 00:34:11.159 the people in his generation liable for not believing in 489 00:34:11.320 --> 00:34:13.960 him and not believing that the Old Testament teaches the Trinity. 490 00:34:14.119 --> 00:34:17.159 So I totally disagree. I do not believe in solid scriptura, 491 00:34:17.440 --> 00:34:19.440 but I do not believe that belief in the deity 492 00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:24.199 of Christ requires the authority of the Church, because before 493 00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:29.000 there's even a church set up, Jesus lauds Peter for 494 00:34:29.440 --> 00:34:32.639 proclaiming his deity, and in fact, in John five through nine, 495 00:34:33.000 --> 00:34:36.480 he excoriates the Pharisees for not recognizing that he was 496 00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:39.599 the one that spoke to Moses and to Abraham because 497 00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:40.880 Abraham believed in the Trinity. 498 00:34:42.840 --> 00:34:45.559 That's interesting, Yet, that sounds like what the religion of 499 00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:46.880 the Apostles book. 500 00:34:46.920 --> 00:34:49.559 A lot of the old a lot of good. 501 00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:52.480 Goat, right. It's actually the argument of justin against trifle. 502 00:34:52.199 --> 00:34:55.760 The Jews, So justin against TREIFO. Okay, have you read. 503 00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:58.800 John five through nine. I'm not trying to be a dickhead. 504 00:34:58.840 --> 00:35:01.519 I'm just saying, like, I'm not being rude to you 505 00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:03.719 a but when I hear Roman Catholics say this stuff 506 00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:06.519 to me, it's just sort of signifies, Like I mean, 507 00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.559 John five through nine is Jesus constantly arguing with the 508 00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:12.119 Pharisees that you're liable for not believing in me because 509 00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:15.800 the Old Testament all taught me and Abraham worshiped the Trinity. 510 00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:17.079 That do you believe that or not? 511 00:35:19.400 --> 00:35:22.280 Right, Well, I suppose if you're a Pharisee back then, 512 00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:26.480 you know that there's a Messiah and maybe someone from 513 00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:29.039 the you know, one of the persons of the Trinity, 514 00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:32.199 but you weren't sure. You were trying to discern whether 515 00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:35.480 Jesus Christ there this guy was the Messiah versus some other. 516 00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:40.079 Well, I understand that. But from this point on afterwards, right, 517 00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:42.800 Jesus says to them, you are now liable because you have. 518 00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:46.239 Seen right, because yeah, you've seen it. 519 00:35:46.320 --> 00:35:49.360 Didn't believe exactly at some at some point I would 520 00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:52.559 like to get of course, I wouldn't have expected you 521 00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:55.800 to have this prepared now, but at some point your 522 00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:58.480 opinion on the letter with Augustine and Jerome, because I 523 00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:01.400 know the mosaic while they were debating on it, like 524 00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:04.480 Jerome was confused because you're saying, why did Paul keep 525 00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:07.400 practicing the laws? And any of the conclusion they came 526 00:36:07.480 --> 00:36:09.800 down to is like, if the Jews want to keep 527 00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:13.519 practicing mosaic law, like the converted Christians, let them practice it, 528 00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:16.960 but don't compel the Gentiles to do it. Because and 529 00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:19.199 they said, well, why didn't we abolish the mosaic. 530 00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:20.039 Law in the first generation. 531 00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:24.480 Augustin said, well, it's like having an honorable funeral. 532 00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:25.800 You don't want to just. 533 00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:27.760 Like desecrate the body. You want to give it a 534 00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:31.159 proper burial, honor the ancestors. Because if we just chopped 535 00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:33.639 the mosaic law in one generation, it would be like 536 00:36:33.719 --> 00:36:34.719 suggesting that God. 537 00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:36.599 Who came up with nonsense in the Old Testament. 538 00:36:37.000 --> 00:36:39.559 And so that's why there's like a slow transition, which 539 00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:40.960 again it's still kind of perplexing. 540 00:36:41.000 --> 00:36:41.760 It's a mystery to me. 541 00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:44.320 But well, I do agree with slow transition because but 542 00:36:44.400 --> 00:36:46.760 I see that slow transition happening within the first century. 543 00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:49.480 And one element that's often missed that is actually stressed 544 00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:52.079 in the Eastern Fathers is the destruction of the Temple. 545 00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:55.679 So seventy eight D is pretty consistent in you know, 546 00:36:55.719 --> 00:36:59.000 Saint John Christal sermons and so forth. Athletes just talks 547 00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:02.000 about it. Origin even talked about the importance of seventy 548 00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:04.280 a D. Because that was the fulfillment of Luke twenty 549 00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:07.719 one in Matthew twenty four that Jesus tells the people 550 00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:10.159 in front of him in Luke twenty one, when you 551 00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:12.960 see the temple destroyed, know that that's the end of 552 00:37:13.159 --> 00:37:16.920 that old administration. That is heaven and earth being rolled 553 00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:19.840 up like a scroll that Hebrews talked about, because heaven 554 00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:22.920 and earth are symbolized by the temple and its ministry, 555 00:37:23.199 --> 00:37:25.360 and so a lot of people who don't know biblical 556 00:37:25.400 --> 00:37:27.679 ex to Jesus and sort of the patterns of these 557 00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:30.800 events and the abomination of desolation for example, which is 558 00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:33.559 again seventy eight that you's talked about. If you don't 559 00:37:33.639 --> 00:37:36.559 know that important event, you will miss his coming in 560 00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:40.440 judgment that he talked about. That is the sign of 561 00:37:40.639 --> 00:37:44.239 the end of the Old Covenant, and that's the divorce 562 00:37:44.440 --> 00:37:46.960 of flesh Israel that the Book of Revelation is talking about. 563 00:37:47.320 --> 00:37:50.239 So you're correct that in the Latin Church, Fathers I 564 00:37:50.360 --> 00:37:53.199 think this is at least with Augustine and Jerome, and 565 00:37:53.239 --> 00:37:55.559 I'm familiar with what you're talking about, Like they don't 566 00:37:55.639 --> 00:37:59.159 typically place the seventy eight destruction as having much at 567 00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:02.239 a redempth of his significance. I'm not sure exactly why 568 00:38:03.079 --> 00:38:06.280 it is very emphasized amongst most of the important Eastern 569 00:38:06.360 --> 00:38:07.559 Church fathers for whatever reason. 570 00:38:08.519 --> 00:38:10.840 That's really interesting. I have to read more on what 571 00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:14.360 they've said there. Okay, great, well, that was the Mosaic law. 572 00:38:14.400 --> 00:38:16.400 I did have a question, since I'm here with you 573 00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:18.960 on the Catholic stuff, if I could ask, unless you've got. 574 00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:19.639 A hoop on. 575 00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:24.639 No, it's overformed, dude, sweet sweet, Well, okay, so I 576 00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:27.440 think you've made the claim before the argument of like, well, 577 00:38:28.239 --> 00:38:30.679 why have any of these ecumenical councils of all you. 578 00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:33.360 Need is a pope right where it kind of suggests 579 00:38:33.400 --> 00:38:33.880 like there's. 580 00:38:33.800 --> 00:38:37.679 A contradiction, right, Is that fair that the economical consoles 581 00:38:37.719 --> 00:38:40.239 in some sense falsify the concept of the papacy. 582 00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:45.760 The way that Vatican One frames the papacy makes the 583 00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:49.320 first thousand years of Christianity seem absurd, a lot of 584 00:38:49.639 --> 00:38:52.719 trouble over nothing, when literally, if they believed in the 585 00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:55.599 Vatican One mindset of the papacy in the first thousand years, 586 00:38:56.360 --> 00:38:58.679 then literally everyone could have just written to the pope 587 00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:02.440 to have the issue settled. Fact Roman Catholic apologists, for example, 588 00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:05.079 often will appeal to the letters of Clement as proof 589 00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:10.159 that Clement, very many miles away from the problems in Corinth, 590 00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:14.440 was quote settling the issues in Corinth. And my point 591 00:39:14.519 --> 00:39:16.440 is that, Okay, so if that's the case, we're supposed 592 00:39:16.440 --> 00:39:19.400 to read Clement's epistle on Vatican One way, then really 593 00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:22.199 we wouldn't need any of these ecumenical councils all called 594 00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:27.119 by emperors. Any dispute that, let's say the emperor is 595 00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:31.320 aware of. You know, this is a empire wide dispute. 596 00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:35.800 The emperor simply could have said, let's ask uh, Rome 597 00:39:36.440 --> 00:39:39.840 case closed. Now, remember, you guys will take out of 598 00:39:39.920 --> 00:39:44.440 context the phrase Rome has spoken cases closed. If that's 599 00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:48.000 the Vatican One mindset, again, why have all this arguing 600 00:39:48.039 --> 00:39:50.199 and disputing and debating and all these councils, why even 601 00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:54.400 call these councils literally just letters of a request could 602 00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:55.719 have been written to Rome. Yeah, I've made that. 603 00:39:55.760 --> 00:40:00.480 Argument, got it, Okay, So I guess it's two questions, right, 604 00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:03.599 because I'm wondering if what you think about these lines 605 00:40:03.639 --> 00:40:04.039 of thoughts? 606 00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:07.480 So right, So why have councils. 607 00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:09.639 If you just have the pope maybe one to one 608 00:40:09.719 --> 00:40:12.199 correspondence and the Pope just tells everyone here's how it's 609 00:40:12.199 --> 00:40:12.480 going to be. 610 00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:16.079 Right, do you do you find in any merit in this? 611 00:40:16.199 --> 00:40:18.280 We're like, well, what like if we make a council here, 612 00:40:18.360 --> 00:40:20.559 even if let's say hypothetically, if the. 613 00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:24.239 Pope somehow had some quart of some sort of authority, it. 614 00:40:24.280 --> 00:40:27.239 Gives opportunity for people to ask questions, understand how the 615 00:40:27.320 --> 00:40:30.199 teaching reconciles, so they can have the open debate. And 616 00:40:30.440 --> 00:40:32.760 it also forces all the leaders of the church to 617 00:40:33.239 --> 00:40:36.320 show themselves in written statement, whether. 618 00:40:36.119 --> 00:40:36.960 They're in a quart or not. 619 00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:39.000 So in some sense, you force the council and you 620 00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:41.400 can reveal who's the heretic and who's the orthodox. 621 00:40:41.960 --> 00:40:44.360 Like do you think, well, I mean again, none of you, 622 00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:51.599 none of that. But in the post first millennium Western mindset, again, 623 00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:55.400 none of that's necessary because after the eleventh century, the 624 00:40:55.480 --> 00:40:58.679 pope confirms every bishop in the world. The Pope decides 625 00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:02.599 throughout the world old who's worthy of excommunication and who isn't. Ultimately, 626 00:41:03.079 --> 00:41:06.119 so the very powers that are claimed and accorded to 627 00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:09.199 the pope in the second millennium, and particularly a Vatican 628 00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:13.639 One like again, ultimately this is this is raising the 629 00:41:13.719 --> 00:41:17.199 question of was the Vatican One stuff in the mind 630 00:41:17.239 --> 00:41:19.639 of the church in the first thousand years or not? 631 00:41:21.800 --> 00:41:24.079 Yeah, no, right to your point. And I suppose the 632 00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:25.000 difficult thing. 633 00:41:25.039 --> 00:41:27.119 I mean, we can't even read each other's minds and 634 00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:28.880 here we are in the present, but to try to 635 00:41:28.960 --> 00:41:29.960 read the minds. 636 00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:32.039 Of historical figures, of course there's going to be something. 637 00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:35.159 Well, remember how difficult it is in the ancient world 638 00:41:35.320 --> 00:41:37.719 to bring all these bishops throughout the empire to one 639 00:41:37.800 --> 00:41:41.599 central city. I mean, that's a huge feat. It requires 640 00:41:41.639 --> 00:41:44.519 a long time, it requires a lot of money. When 641 00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:47.480 all we needed was just like a one letter sent 642 00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:50.280 to the Bishop of Rome and his you know, sealable approval. 643 00:41:50.519 --> 00:41:52.039 And by the way, couldn't the Bishop of Rome to 644 00:41:52.199 --> 00:41:54.559 tell us who's a heretic and who's not? By the way, 645 00:41:54.559 --> 00:41:56.320 I mean, that's the Vatican One powers that he has. 646 00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:57.599 Why can't why can't he do that? 647 00:41:58.480 --> 00:42:00.639 Well, So that's interesting, and this is me thinking for 648 00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:02.599 the first time, I haven't thought about what you're saying 649 00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:06.079 here before. But I suppose, like okay, for example, like 650 00:42:06.159 --> 00:42:09.679 capital punishment at least in the Catholic position has has migrated, right, 651 00:42:09.800 --> 00:42:11.960 So why did the church flip flop? You could say, well, 652 00:42:12.440 --> 00:42:17.320 before there was no adequate means to deal with the psychopaths, 653 00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:19.519 you know, the dangerous people there were, there were no prisons, 654 00:42:19.559 --> 00:42:20.840 so you just had to kill them. But now that 655 00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:23.679 we have prisons, that's changed. Or like war, the concept 656 00:42:23.719 --> 00:42:26.159 of a just war, Well, now we have nuclear bombs. 657 00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:28.239 Well on, there were prisons in the ancient world. The 658 00:42:28.960 --> 00:42:30.880 mosaic law mentions imprisoning somebody. 659 00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:34.079 What do you mean, Uh, well, I. 660 00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:36.880 Mean yeah, without getting too much into that point, I 661 00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.519 mean the concept I think that you couldn't really have 662 00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:41.719 a stable society with like mass you know. 663 00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:43.639 Prisons at scale, like you just have to kind of 664 00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:45.440 to It's. 665 00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:49.000 Because you're balancing the good of letting the person have 666 00:42:49.039 --> 00:42:52.119 an opportunity for redemption versus protecting society. 667 00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:52.559 From the evil doer. 668 00:42:53.039 --> 00:42:55.239 And you could argue that before you couldn't really contain 669 00:42:55.320 --> 00:42:57.199 the evil doers, so it's better to just you know, 670 00:42:57.320 --> 00:42:57.679 kill them. 671 00:42:57.760 --> 00:42:59.760 Well, the problem with that, I understand that this is 672 00:42:59.800 --> 00:43:03.159 an attempt at explaining why this position might evolve. But 673 00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:06.920 the problem is that in traditional Catholic moral theology, and 674 00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:08.840 I think even I'm going from memory here, but even 675 00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:12.360 in the Council the Catechism of Trent, it argues that 676 00:43:12.639 --> 00:43:17.400 the basis for the death penalty is natural justice. So 677 00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:21.320 does I thought things in Rome Mecalay theology natural law? 678 00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:22.199 How's that going to change? 679 00:43:24.039 --> 00:43:24.199 Right? 680 00:43:24.280 --> 00:43:25.280 Well, fair enough? 681 00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:26.800 And yeah, I guess I don't mean to get too 682 00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:29.400 much united into that. I'd have to circle back on 683 00:43:29.480 --> 00:43:31.719 that point, but I guess if there is a certain 684 00:43:31.880 --> 00:43:37.000 element of the fundamental nature of the times is somehow changed. 685 00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:39.719 So you make an interesting point that, I mean. 686 00:43:39.679 --> 00:43:43.000 Today you can communicate around the world in a millisecond. 687 00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:45.559 I mean, we're doing it right now, and so having 688 00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:48.639 a centralized structure and dissemination of information whatever, I mean, 689 00:43:48.679 --> 00:43:50.840 that's that's not much of a problem. But back then, 690 00:43:51.039 --> 00:43:54.079 like you couldn't really travel. I mean, it's really problematic. 691 00:43:54.159 --> 00:43:56.199 So you're saying, but then that means you're admitting that 692 00:43:56.360 --> 00:43:58.920 the Clement argument is not an argument for Aboutican one. 693 00:44:00.639 --> 00:44:03.880 Oh I'm not even aware, Like I'm not even making 694 00:44:03.880 --> 00:44:05.679 a claim. Y, I'm just literally explored. 695 00:44:05.719 --> 00:44:07.840 I'm trying to like grapple with the consequence. 696 00:44:08.280 --> 00:44:12.199 I understand. But if that's the case, then the Clement 697 00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:15.679 example is no longer an example for Vatican one papacy. 698 00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:20.400 Yeah, no, I see what you're saying. But coolly, I 699 00:44:20.440 --> 00:44:22.320 gotta have to look more into the stuff that you 700 00:44:22.400 --> 00:44:22.840 brought up. 701 00:44:22.920 --> 00:44:26.199 But you know it's also I mean, are you are 702 00:44:26.239 --> 00:44:28.679 you aware on this topic? Are you aware of the 703 00:44:29.320 --> 00:44:31.679 Chidy document and the Alexandria document. 704 00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:33.599 I am not. 705 00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:36.639 So these are on the Vatican website. You can go 706 00:44:36.679 --> 00:44:40.360 to Christianity dot christian Unity dot v A H and 707 00:44:40.599 --> 00:44:42.519 you can look up the Chi eighty document and the 708 00:44:42.599 --> 00:44:47.079 Alexandria document. Chady document says this is approved by the Vatican, 709 00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:51.559 approved by Francis. It says, appeals regarding disciplinary matters in 710 00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:55.239 the first some of the first millennium we're also made 711 00:44:55.280 --> 00:44:58.320 to Constantinople and other SE's. So appeals are not just 712 00:44:58.400 --> 00:45:02.079 made to Rome, always treated in a synodal way. So 713 00:45:02.440 --> 00:45:05.000 in fact, this is admitting that anytime, even when there 714 00:45:05.079 --> 00:45:08.000 was an appeal based on the Canons of Artica, this 715 00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:10.519 was not a Rome speaks in cases close matter. It's 716 00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:14.119 a let's retry. Let's have a retrial. Appeals to the 717 00:45:14.199 --> 00:45:16.920 Bishop of Rome from the East expressed the communion of 718 00:45:16.960 --> 00:45:21.000 the church, but the Bishop of Rome did not exercise 719 00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:24.480 canonical authority over the churches of the East. This is 720 00:45:24.559 --> 00:45:27.920 in direct contradiction to what Vatican One says about the 721 00:45:28.000 --> 00:45:31.000 universal jurisdiction of the pope at all times. So I 722 00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:32.920 would just say that your own Vatican, and not trying 723 00:45:32.960 --> 00:45:34.239 to put you on the spot or be rude to you, 724 00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:37.119 but your own Vatican, in its recent documents, has admitted 725 00:45:37.159 --> 00:45:41.039 that this is something obviously that evolved. This whole idea 726 00:45:41.079 --> 00:45:43.719 of the papacy evolved over time, and to me that's 727 00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:48.039 another surrendering of Vatican One, because Vatican one claims, as 728 00:45:48.119 --> 00:45:50.880 well as legal of the Thirteen that the powers and 729 00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:55.000 prerogatives of the Bishop of Rome were always universally there 730 00:45:55.119 --> 00:45:56.679 and known from the very first days. 731 00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:02.039 So okay, this is me not familiar with the specifics 732 00:46:02.039 --> 00:46:03.679 of what we pointed to, but just even what I 733 00:46:03.800 --> 00:46:07.400 know now, would the Catholic response be that, sure, like 734 00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:10.880 the Pope on different issues will seek that you know, 735 00:46:11.280 --> 00:46:15.639 appeal process that'll be more collaborative. But then there's specific 736 00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:17.800 times where the quote unquote. You know, the keys of 737 00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:20.719 infallibility are wielded, and that's like so rare, and I 738 00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:23.480 understand that might be a little unfalsifiable, like when was 739 00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:24.119 it infallible? 740 00:46:24.159 --> 00:46:24.760 When was it not? 741 00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:27.519 But you know, is it fair to say that the 742 00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:30.880 pope might might allow for certain issues to be more 743 00:46:31.000 --> 00:46:34.239 collaborative and worked out as opposed to other issues where 744 00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:35.159 the keys will be swung. 745 00:46:35.320 --> 00:46:38.440 Let's say, Okay, maybe that's the case within Roman Catholicism, 746 00:46:38.519 --> 00:46:40.159 that you can make that argument. But I'm making a 747 00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:44.360 different argument, which is that there's a specific dogmatic contradiction 748 00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:49.320 that Vatican One says everybody in all times, in all 749 00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:52.119 places new from the earliest days that the Roman Sea 750 00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:58.679 had universal jurisdiction, indefectibility and infallibility. That's contrary too, this 751 00:46:58.920 --> 00:47:03.159 claim that saidmitted here that in the first millennium the 752 00:47:03.280 --> 00:47:06.480 Church of Rome did not have universal jurisdiction. Both of 753 00:47:06.519 --> 00:47:08.000 these things can't be true at the same time. That's 754 00:47:08.039 --> 00:47:10.639 the area, got it? 755 00:47:10.760 --> 00:47:13.199 Got it? Okay? Right? 756 00:47:13.239 --> 00:47:15.280 Well, I gotta yeah, I'll look into this. I do 757 00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:18.119 have to dive into the history. I will say that's 758 00:47:18.119 --> 00:47:20.679 been on my to do list. But I guess if 759 00:47:20.679 --> 00:47:22.519 I could ask one more question, because this is more 760 00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:27.239 of just like a psychological of you know, Barrier Stumbach block. 761 00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:33.039 But how would you succinctly capture the Orthodox view on sexuality? 762 00:47:33.079 --> 00:47:35.400 Because let's say, you know, the Catholic Church has the 763 00:47:35.559 --> 00:47:39.039 Theology of the Body, some pretty beautiful stuff on you know, 764 00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:41.559 the nature of the sexuality, and it seems to me, 765 00:47:41.639 --> 00:47:44.719 even on an issue of like contraception, I just don't 766 00:47:44.760 --> 00:47:46.599 really understand what the Orthodox position is. 767 00:47:47.119 --> 00:47:49.840 I don't know, it just seemed it just doesn't seem 768 00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:52.280 as tight doctrinely when it comes to you know, matters 769 00:47:52.320 --> 00:47:55.719 of sex. Am I like, am I missing something? Like? 770 00:47:55.960 --> 00:47:56.880 How would you capture it? 771 00:47:56.920 --> 00:47:58.960 So yeah, I would just say go to UBI Petris's 772 00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:01.800 channel and watch the Inner View with doctor David Bradshaw 773 00:48:01.880 --> 00:48:05.239 on sex, contraception, NFP Humana vite in Natural Law, and 774 00:48:05.320 --> 00:48:08.000 then UBI has a separate documentary that he made on 775 00:48:08.719 --> 00:48:11.840 marriage and divorce in the Orthodox view. But great questions, 776 00:48:11.880 --> 00:48:17.800 Appreciate that, great conversation. Really enjoyed that. Uh it's it's 777 00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:22.079 really good when we have a civil Roman Catholic who 778 00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:25.000 doesn't just immediately scream and lose his mind. So thank 779 00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:38.239 you for that. Grammy Winner. What's up man? What's up? 780 00:48:38.360 --> 00:48:38.519 Hell? 781 00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:40.000 Hi yo? 782 00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:42.199 So I have a question. 783 00:48:43.400 --> 00:48:46.440 I was recently reading the Books of X and the Church. 784 00:48:48.079 --> 00:48:51.360 Your what I was reading the Book of X. 785 00:48:53.800 --> 00:48:57.159 And the Church describing it is so different from the 786 00:48:57.280 --> 00:49:01.039 althod of Church. I mean it looks simpler, most simple issue. 787 00:49:01.079 --> 00:49:04.880 Want I think, hold on, I think you're running on 788 00:49:04.920 --> 00:49:06.800 a lot of assumptions because it says there were many 789 00:49:06.880 --> 00:49:10.639 lights that were there when they gather. That's the candles. 790 00:49:11.519 --> 00:49:14.280 It talks about an altar in Hebrews thirteen, so Paul 791 00:49:14.360 --> 00:49:16.519 talks about the Church and the Book of Acts having 792 00:49:16.559 --> 00:49:21.360 an altar. So here's an altar, here's candles, there's robes, 793 00:49:21.519 --> 00:49:24.239 there's relics. They take relics from Paul's body and drive 794 00:49:24.280 --> 00:49:26.239 out spirits. I mean, these are all things that we 795 00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:28.480 find in the Orthodox Church. So how where are you 796 00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:30.480 getting this idea? It's not the same. 797 00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:34.800 Well, when you read the book, I mean the description 798 00:49:35.039 --> 00:49:38.159 of the church is like, I mean, it's kind of 799 00:49:38.280 --> 00:49:39.800 different in a way. 800 00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:42.639 I mean, if you read Paul's epistles, it's not different. 801 00:49:42.679 --> 00:49:45.079 Because Paul says that the apostolic succession that he gave 802 00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:47.960 to Timothy is based on the principles that you see 803 00:49:47.960 --> 00:49:50.719 in numbers eleven. So numbers eleven. Moses lays his hands 804 00:49:50.719 --> 00:49:52.760 and passes on the Holy Spirit. Paul says Timothy, I 805 00:49:52.880 --> 00:49:54.719 light hands on you, passes the Holy Spirit too, men 806 00:49:54.840 --> 00:49:57.360 after you. That's absolute succession. So that's also in the 807 00:49:57.400 --> 00:49:59.719 Book of Acts. You can't take acts in isolation. There's 808 00:49:59.719 --> 00:50:00.760 all the other passages. 809 00:50:01.719 --> 00:50:03.639 But you talk about the relics of Paul. 810 00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:06.360 Ax talks about the relics of Paul. 811 00:50:07.559 --> 00:50:10.000 Does it really? Because, I mean, he's still alive. 812 00:50:10.239 --> 00:50:12.719 So I don't know why we're talking about it in 813 00:50:12.800 --> 00:50:15.320 the book that you know, was written when it was 814 00:50:15.360 --> 00:50:16.880 still I'm living in this world. 815 00:50:16.920 --> 00:50:19.800 I mean, a relic a holy man can heal people 816 00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:21.400 when he's alive. He doesn't have to be dead. What 817 00:50:21.440 --> 00:50:22.119 are you talking about? 818 00:50:23.320 --> 00:50:25.639 Oh well, well, my my bad. 819 00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:32.960 But when we talk about the saints, I mean, at 820 00:50:33.000 --> 00:50:35.639 the time of Paul and all the orders, I mean, 821 00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:39.920 there were the saints. So why doesn't anyone actually pray 822 00:50:40.239 --> 00:50:43.400 saints in this You know, in the early Scriptures they do. 823 00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:47.159 The Book of Revelation, Paul John seasoned Heaven in chapters 824 00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:51.320 five through eight, and he talks to and presents the 825 00:50:51.559 --> 00:50:54.360 martyrs in heaven interceding for the Church on earth. 826 00:50:55.760 --> 00:50:58.360 I mean, this is not like your interpresation of what 827 00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:01.920 the one should expect, what interpress interpretation? 828 00:51:02.119 --> 00:51:04.840 Sorry, everybody has an interpretation, so that is that's a 829 00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:05.679 meaningless statement. 830 00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:10.760 Mh. Well it's not convincing. I mean, I want to. 831 00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:13.599 Tell you that's a fallacy. So the fact that it's 832 00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:17.079 not convincing doesn't mean it's not true. Yeah, I know, Well, 833 00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:20.440 but I mean, are there are there are the saints 834 00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:22.360 under the altar offering the prayers of the of the 835 00:51:22.440 --> 00:51:23.199 Church on earth or not? 836 00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:26.000 I mean, I wouldn't be able to. 837 00:51:26.199 --> 00:51:29.039 I don't know. I mean it's you don't believe me. 838 00:51:29.159 --> 00:51:31.320 I just that's what That's what John says the Book 839 00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:32.360 of Revelation. You're not familiar with that. 840 00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:36.440 Well, he talks about the prayers, but it doesn't say 841 00:51:36.800 --> 00:51:37.280 yes it does. 842 00:51:39.079 --> 00:51:42.400 Because you're you're using this to fit a narrative, I think, 843 00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:45.840 and that's actually wrong because. 844 00:51:45.679 --> 00:51:48.039 Okay, what does it actually say? Since you I mean 845 00:51:48.119 --> 00:51:49.920 to say that I'm wrong. Pre suppose that you know 846 00:51:50.039 --> 00:51:51.559 what the text says, So you tell me what the 847 00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:52.480 text actually says. 848 00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:54.400 If I remember he. 849 00:51:54.440 --> 00:51:58.920 Talks about perfume and prayer of saints like being you know, 850 00:51:59.320 --> 00:52:00.159 spilled some way. 851 00:52:00.199 --> 00:52:02.519 I don't know, mention that perfume. What are you talking about? 852 00:52:04.119 --> 00:52:12.360 That's what I read. It's sometimes but still I think 853 00:52:12.760 --> 00:52:13.280 the way you. 854 00:52:13.400 --> 00:52:16.119 Present well, you're saying that, but you're not telling me why. 855 00:52:16.239 --> 00:52:19.840 You're just saying that. You're saying, oh, that's your interpretation. Well, 856 00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:25.199 everybody has their interpretations. Everyone has an agenda. You think 857 00:52:25.239 --> 00:52:26.880 that the people are neutral on this's what are you 858 00:52:26.920 --> 00:52:27.400 talking about? 859 00:52:28.280 --> 00:52:31.119 Well, I mean it should be should do agenda? Should 860 00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:33.119 you know, feed the narrative of a god? And that's 861 00:52:33.159 --> 00:52:33.639 your own. 862 00:52:36.559 --> 00:52:38.760 And let me guess you have the agenda you have. 863 00:52:38.960 --> 00:52:40.920 You have the agenda of God. You're the God, you're 864 00:52:40.960 --> 00:52:41.480 the prophet. 865 00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:45.239 I just I'm kind of figuring it out, you know, 866 00:52:45.320 --> 00:52:45.760 I'm sorry. 867 00:52:45.760 --> 00:52:48.320 Okay, Well, the text says that they're underneath the altar 868 00:52:48.440 --> 00:52:51.079 in heaven offering the prayers of the saints on earth. 869 00:52:51.239 --> 00:52:53.400 That's what the text says. So you tell me, as 870 00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:55.840 a Protestant, whether I'm making up a narrative. 871 00:52:56.800 --> 00:52:59.199 Yeah, but the prayers of the saint doesn't mean to 872 00:52:59.280 --> 00:52:59.920 be out prayer. 873 00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:03.440 It's the saints on earth. It says our prayers are 874 00:53:03.480 --> 00:53:07.039 offered by the saints in heaven. Yes, it does say that. 875 00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:07.880 What are you talking about? 876 00:53:08.840 --> 00:53:10.760 No, he just talks about the prayer off the saints, 877 00:53:10.920 --> 00:53:12.119 not the prayers. 878 00:53:12.079 --> 00:53:15.280 They pray for the saints on earth for vengeance for them. 879 00:53:17.519 --> 00:53:21.719 Yes it does, they say, God, they intercede for the 880 00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:24.679 saints on earth for God to avenge their brothers on earth. 881 00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:29.159 It says that, well, can you give me the text 882 00:53:29.400 --> 00:53:30.960 or rat it afta please? 883 00:53:34.119 --> 00:53:45.840 Yep, let me pull it up. Thank you, they cried 884 00:53:45.880 --> 00:53:48.639 out with a loud voice. O Sovereign Lord, how long 885 00:53:48.719 --> 00:53:51.079 until you judge and avenge our blood on those who 886 00:53:51.199 --> 00:53:52.119 dwell on the earth. 887 00:53:56.639 --> 00:54:02.039 Okay, which message is this? I'm just coming before after 888 00:54:02.440 --> 00:54:04.480 the part about the bread off the saying. 889 00:54:04.360 --> 00:54:06.480 It's Revelation six nine through eleven. 890 00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:10.760 I see, well, I have a look at it, because 891 00:54:11.559 --> 00:54:12.960 it's just really the whole thing. 892 00:54:12.920 --> 00:54:15.360 Like it also looks church, because you can't really differentiate 893 00:54:15.440 --> 00:54:16.679 yourself from because of the Church. 894 00:54:16.679 --> 00:54:18.920 And so now so now you've tapped down so totally 895 00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:21.599 changed the topic to differentiate from the Catholic Church. What 896 00:54:21.639 --> 00:54:22.280 does that have to do with this? 897 00:54:23.079 --> 00:54:23.760 So what is that? 898 00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:26.440 I mean, you're changing the subject because. 899 00:54:26.159 --> 00:54:30.159 I'm trying to figure out what is the primitive Church? 900 00:54:32.280 --> 00:54:36.079 Okay, and any any evidence that contradicts your Protestant idea 901 00:54:36.159 --> 00:54:38.079 of the early Church you're throwing out and saying, it's 902 00:54:38.079 --> 00:54:40.880 my interpretation. Do you have do you have an maybe 903 00:54:40.880 --> 00:54:42.159 you have? Do you have a Protestant agenda? 904 00:54:43.039 --> 00:54:45.800 No at all. I'm really upen to you understand. Just wants, 905 00:54:45.880 --> 00:54:47.760 you know, to figure it out, that's all. 906 00:54:49.559 --> 00:54:54.079 But part of understanding means being willing to give up 907 00:54:54.119 --> 00:54:56.159 our presuppositions, and the fact that you think you don't 908 00:54:56.159 --> 00:54:58.079 have any presubpositions is the root of the problem here. 909 00:54:58.159 --> 00:54:58.760 Everyone does. 910 00:54:59.480 --> 00:55:02.880 I am actually, I mean, I'm not trying to force 911 00:55:02.920 --> 00:55:04.239 any idea upon you. 912 00:55:04.360 --> 00:55:06.679 I'm just trying to well, I mean when I when 913 00:55:06.760 --> 00:55:08.960 I give you the text, you suddenly say you can't 914 00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:11.360 differentiate yourself from the Catholic Church. What does that have 915 00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:11.800 to do with this? 916 00:55:13.119 --> 00:55:14.960 Because they can the same things. I want to know 917 00:55:15.159 --> 00:55:18.519 they can the same thing as you to be the 918 00:55:18.599 --> 00:55:19.960 primitive Church, because. 919 00:55:19.719 --> 00:55:21.639 That's a fallacy. The fact that they claim the same 920 00:55:21.679 --> 00:55:23.360 thing as us has nothing to do with which one's 921 00:55:23.360 --> 00:55:24.800 true or false? Do you don't do you know what 922 00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:25.639 fallacies are? 923 00:55:26.440 --> 00:55:28.360 Yeah? I know, but you too claim this hame thing. 924 00:55:28.480 --> 00:55:29.840 So how I was, No, we. 925 00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:33.000 Don't what are you talking about? I mean, they claimed 926 00:55:33.000 --> 00:55:36.440 that the Roman bishop was the universal, infallible, in defectible 927 00:55:36.480 --> 00:55:37.639 head from the first days of the church. 928 00:55:37.719 --> 00:55:38.000 We don't. 929 00:55:38.039 --> 00:55:41.920 We don't claim that. I literally, I literally just argued 930 00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:44.639 for thirty minutes of the guy before you text showing 931 00:55:44.679 --> 00:55:45.400 that that's not the case. 932 00:55:46.360 --> 00:55:49.039 Okay, By the way, can I give a couple more sure? 933 00:55:49.880 --> 00:55:53.719 Thank you? Uh Job. 934 00:55:55.400 --> 00:55:59.920 Says, if there shall be an angel speaking for him, 935 00:56:01.360 --> 00:56:04.480 he shall mercy on him, and she shall say deliver him. 936 00:56:04.679 --> 00:56:08.400 They may not go down to corruption. So obviously we 937 00:56:08.480 --> 00:56:13.000 can petition angels. In the book of Tobit, when thou 938 00:56:13.119 --> 00:56:17.119 didst prayed with tears, I archangel Raphael. 939 00:56:16.880 --> 00:56:20.440 Offered the prayer to the Lord. So there's prayers to angels. 940 00:56:21.280 --> 00:56:24.159 Saint John, another angel came and stood before the altar, 941 00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:26.159 having a golden censer, and there was given to him 942 00:56:26.199 --> 00:56:28.920 much incense that he should offer of the prayers of 943 00:56:29.039 --> 00:56:32.440 all the saints upon the golden altar, which is before 944 00:56:32.480 --> 00:56:33.760 the throne of guard God. 945 00:56:34.519 --> 00:56:37.039 So he clearly see that. 946 00:56:38.599 --> 00:56:41.599 Prayers and petitions can be made to the angels. And 947 00:56:41.920 --> 00:56:44.599 that's all the scripture, right there and then offer it 948 00:56:44.679 --> 00:56:46.800 up to God. But if you want to know that 949 00:56:46.960 --> 00:56:49.840 the early primitive Church, we have Saint Cyprian of Carthage, 950 00:56:49.880 --> 00:56:52.360 Saint Hilary of Boteers sat from the Syrian. 951 00:56:52.840 --> 00:56:55.199 These are all the third fourth. 952 00:56:55.079 --> 00:56:59.320 Centuries, Saint Anthonatius the Great, fourth century, Saint Basil the Gray. 953 00:57:00.559 --> 00:57:02.960 It's in the liturgy of Saint Basil, one of the 954 00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:08.000 earliest liturgies. Saint Cyril, Jerusalem, Saint Gregory the Theologian, all 955 00:57:08.199 --> 00:57:11.360 say the early Church, and it commands you to pray 956 00:57:11.719 --> 00:57:16.159 to saints. So you don't see this, don't pray to 957 00:57:16.239 --> 00:57:19.159 saints until what fifteen hundred years later. So if you're 958 00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:21.639 looking for the primitive Church, it's right there, and they 959 00:57:21.679 --> 00:57:27.800 pray the saints, both in scripture and all the earliest fathers. 960 00:57:30.199 --> 00:57:32.239 I'm going to read you Revelation eight. When he opened 961 00:57:32.280 --> 00:57:34.119 the seventh Seal, there was silence in heaven. I saw 962 00:57:34.199 --> 00:57:36.320 the angels who said before God, and to them were 963 00:57:36.320 --> 00:57:38.760 given seven trumpet's. Another angel. How any golden censer came 964 00:57:39.079 --> 00:57:41.039 stood of the altar. He was given incense that he 965 00:57:41.079 --> 00:57:45.079 should offer it with the prayers of the saints upon 966 00:57:45.280 --> 00:57:48.360 the golden altar, which was before the throne. So this 967 00:57:48.559 --> 00:57:52.039 is an angel in the heavenly liturgy, offering the prayers 968 00:57:52.079 --> 00:57:53.039 of the saints before God. 969 00:57:58.119 --> 00:58:00.239 Okay, I see what I just see. You know better 970 00:58:00.280 --> 00:58:05.719 than me. That's Ben the noble. And I'm really trying 971 00:58:05.840 --> 00:58:07.159 to because I felt like. 972 00:58:09.840 --> 00:58:15.119 We can't really know what happened after the difficult death death. 973 00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:18.119 So well, how do you know that we have We 974 00:58:18.239 --> 00:58:21.440 have a multitudes of writings of the post Apostolic fathers 975 00:58:22.039 --> 00:58:28.960 ignacious uh Clement, uh Cyprian. I mean you're an as polycarp. 976 00:58:29.039 --> 00:58:30.000 What do you mean we can't know? 977 00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:33.599 I mean, yes, we have done. But like I said, 978 00:58:33.800 --> 00:58:34.719 they have an agenda. 979 00:58:35.320 --> 00:58:38.320 Well that's your again, that's your presupposition. You're you're saying 980 00:58:38.320 --> 00:58:40.920 to have an agenda when it disagrees with your interpretation. 981 00:58:41.320 --> 00:58:43.840 And why not just say the apostles have an agenda? 982 00:58:44.119 --> 00:58:46.320 So anything, I don't like that the apostles wrote it's 983 00:58:46.320 --> 00:58:52.400 an agenda, because what if they will close up to 984 00:58:52.480 --> 00:58:53.760 Jesus and they lived with him. 985 00:58:53.840 --> 00:58:59.960 So of course, Alsoiousious was writing under the authority of apostles, 986 00:59:00.079 --> 00:59:02.079 in which they would have said you can't write that. 987 00:59:03.039 --> 00:59:06.280 Yeah, on what basis do you cut off Ignatius. 988 00:59:08.039 --> 00:59:11.079 Because he was not about of the droop. 989 00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:12.519 I mean what. 990 00:59:14.199 --> 00:59:17.000 He was not about off the drowp I'm talking about 991 00:59:17.039 --> 00:59:18.000 those part of the. 992 00:59:18.440 --> 00:59:21.920 Jube, the group of the above Jesus. 993 00:59:22.039 --> 00:59:25.679 Okay, what well, Paul says to Timothy that lay hands 994 00:59:25.719 --> 00:59:28.119 on men after you because the Holy Spirit is given. 995 00:59:28.360 --> 00:59:31.119 So did the Holy Spirit die when Paul told Timbery 996 00:59:31.119 --> 00:59:32.159 to start laying hands on men? 997 00:59:33.119 --> 00:59:36.920 Yeah, but actually Poe met with the others and your 998 00:59:37.320 --> 00:59:39.719 saints I don't know who they all didn't. 999 00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:42.719 Meant, what are you talking about? You have no idea. 1000 00:59:44.199 --> 00:59:46.440 He was taught by Christ from the Apostles? What are you? 1001 00:59:47.239 --> 00:59:48.920 He's the first second century scene. 1002 00:59:51.239 --> 00:59:53.320 A lot of these were the ones that we're mentioning 1003 00:59:53.760 --> 00:59:55.519 Polycarp Barnabys. 1004 00:59:56.800 --> 01:00:00.039 They're always they were all writing under the authority. 1005 00:59:59.679 --> 01:00:01.679 Of the Are you like a Seventh day Adventist or 1006 01:00:01.719 --> 01:00:04.480 some kind of like assumption here that like after the Apostle, 1007 01:00:04.519 --> 01:00:07.159 when when the Apostles died, then suddenly there's this apostas 1008 01:00:07.199 --> 01:00:09.800 here like a job's witness. What you're you're coming from? 1009 01:00:09.880 --> 01:00:10.880 Something like that? I can tell. 1010 01:00:11.159 --> 01:00:13.199 I'm just trying to use critical thinking because. 1011 01:00:13.280 --> 01:00:15.639 What's your background? Though, because it's not just critical thinking. 1012 01:00:15.719 --> 01:00:18.159 It's some indoctrination from some dumb cult. What is it 1013 01:00:19.000 --> 01:00:23.440 any Really, you're repeating what a lot of cults say. 1014 01:00:23.519 --> 01:00:28.199 Where did you get this information? Yes, you are, Come on, 1015 01:00:28.440 --> 01:00:32.119 be honest. No, I'm not okay, Well you got this 1016 01:00:32.239 --> 01:00:34.079 information from somewhere. You didn't just sit down and read 1017 01:00:34.079 --> 01:00:38.519 the Bible and suddenly decide that Ignacious was an apostle. No, 1018 01:00:38.719 --> 01:00:38.960 I'm not. 1019 01:00:39.079 --> 01:00:39.719 I'm not saying that. 1020 01:00:39.840 --> 01:00:42.599 I'm saying that you did say that I can't retely 1021 01:00:42.679 --> 01:00:44.880 trust them because they have an agenda. 1022 01:00:45.119 --> 01:00:47.920 I mean, it's again, how do you know that? Where 1023 01:00:47.960 --> 01:00:49.840 did you come to the conclusion that they have an agenda? 1024 01:00:49.880 --> 01:00:50.920 Where did you get this information? 1025 01:00:51.960 --> 01:00:57.360 Because they tend to go sam rude as Cazaric churge 1026 01:00:57.960 --> 01:00:58.320 and I don't know. 1027 01:00:58.800 --> 01:01:01.360 I mean maybe the Orthodox the Catholic are correct. How 1028 01:01:01.400 --> 01:01:02.760 do you know How do you know they're not correct? 1029 01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:07.559 I mean they maybe. 1030 01:01:07.599 --> 01:01:09.119 Oh, maybe you're talking to a demon. How do you 1031 01:01:09.159 --> 01:01:09.880 know it's holy spirit? 1032 01:01:11.360 --> 01:01:17.039 Well that's I'm sure, okay, But anyways. 1033 01:01:18.239 --> 01:01:21.000 DU's got Beyonce on his profile. This guy's troll. He's 1034 01:01:21.000 --> 01:01:28.840 probably trolling Ken Chin. What's up? Prema Scripture will call 1035 01:01:28.920 --> 01:01:33.920 in dude, what are you talking about? Defining cold? Call 1036 01:01:34.039 --> 01:01:39.760 in and I will define call for you. Ruh. We 1037 01:01:39.800 --> 01:01:41.920 should have got it. Sounds like he's just repeating seven 1038 01:01:41.960 --> 01:01:45.599 day having and stuff. What's up, man, I'm mute? 1039 01:01:47.440 --> 01:01:50.800 Oh Hellotle, Gary? Oh Hey, how you doing? Jack? 1040 01:01:53.199 --> 01:01:54.119 Good? What what's up? 1041 01:01:54.679 --> 01:01:56.880 Okay? Awesome? Just making sure I was all set up 1042 01:01:56.920 --> 01:01:57.559 and good. Yeah. 1043 01:01:57.599 --> 01:02:00.280 So I said a question about the final authority any 1044 01:02:00.599 --> 01:02:02.559 Orthodoxy would you be able to address up for me? 1045 01:02:02.719 --> 01:02:02.920 Sure? 1046 01:02:05.039 --> 01:02:06.960 Yeah, yes, I generally want to know what it is. 1047 01:02:07.079 --> 01:02:09.960 Is it the equamentum, councils, is it the bishops? 1048 01:02:10.679 --> 01:02:10.840 Yes? 1049 01:02:11.039 --> 01:02:11.599 What is it? 1050 01:02:11.679 --> 01:02:13.400 And what is your position? 1051 01:02:14.440 --> 01:02:17.920 Yeah? You Reform Calvinists, okay. 1052 01:02:18.119 --> 01:02:21.039 Yeah, we would agree that the final authority at the 1053 01:02:21.119 --> 01:02:23.119 end of the day is the Holy Spirit. So every 1054 01:02:23.199 --> 01:02:27.039 Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant agrees that for the individual, 1055 01:02:27.639 --> 01:02:30.079 the final authority is going to be the Holy Spirit 1056 01:02:30.199 --> 01:02:33.199 revealing what's true or false. But where we disagree with 1057 01:02:33.679 --> 01:02:36.360 the reform person and with the Roman Catholic is the 1058 01:02:36.440 --> 01:02:38.840 means that the Holy Spirit uses. So we do not 1059 01:02:39.000 --> 01:02:42.239 believe that it is primarily just you and the scriptures, 1060 01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:44.280 and we do not believe that it is primarily just 1061 01:02:44.880 --> 01:02:47.880 the Holy Spirit so called and the Pope. We would 1062 01:02:47.920 --> 01:02:51.079 say that there's a combination of things working together and 1063 01:02:51.119 --> 01:02:54.159 there's not one magisterial thing that we would point to. 1064 01:02:54.679 --> 01:02:57.239 But where we would bit different with you more particularly, 1065 01:02:57.360 --> 01:03:01.000 is that Jesus did establish a normative authority for the church, 1066 01:03:01.400 --> 01:03:04.320 and your group does not believe in any normative, existing 1067 01:03:04.440 --> 01:03:06.679 historical authority. So that refutes your whole position. 1068 01:03:07.559 --> 01:03:09.400 Well, sure, so let's just go to you said the 1069 01:03:09.440 --> 01:03:12.239 Holy spirits the ultimate authority. So you're saying that everything 1070 01:03:12.360 --> 01:03:14.960 that's that would be given a scripture would essentially the 1071 01:03:15.039 --> 01:03:17.239 Holy Spirit would guide us and give us a correct 1072 01:03:17.239 --> 01:03:18.840 interpretation that the correct path. 1073 01:03:18.679 --> 01:03:21.639 To go down to, not just the scripture, not just 1074 01:03:21.679 --> 01:03:23.280 the scripture, also the oral tradition. 1075 01:03:24.559 --> 01:03:26.000 And where's the ord tradition found. 1076 01:03:26.760 --> 01:03:29.320 It's found in the oral teaching, an interpretation hermenoneudicts of 1077 01:03:29.320 --> 01:03:31.440 the traditional apostles, and it's found in places like the 1078 01:03:31.519 --> 01:03:32.480 liturgy for example. 1079 01:03:33.840 --> 01:03:35.800 So like like, what what is the greatest thing I 1080 01:03:35.840 --> 01:03:37.760 guess in the or tradition that you're you would refer 1081 01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:38.039 to the. 1082 01:03:40.320 --> 01:03:42.920 Liturgy, so are you? But it doesn't everything that's in 1083 01:03:43.039 --> 01:03:46.719 the liturgy. Echo would say the Bible. No, like what 1084 01:03:46.880 --> 01:03:49.000 the what would be absent though, if you have. 1085 01:03:48.960 --> 01:03:51.320 Anything the liturgical service itself. 1086 01:03:52.440 --> 01:03:54.360 M hm. So without that's that. 1087 01:03:54.519 --> 01:03:56.920 That sort of or tradition you would say, that's missing 1088 01:03:57.000 --> 01:03:58.199 something critical in worship. 1089 01:03:58.679 --> 01:04:01.159 Yeah, we're in the New Testament. Did the apostles give 1090 01:04:01.159 --> 01:04:02.559 you a liturgical worship service? 1091 01:04:04.039 --> 01:04:06.360 Well, it sounds like it's not something that needs to. 1092 01:04:06.360 --> 01:04:11.880 Be particularly interesting. So in Leviticus Native and Vai who 1093 01:04:11.920 --> 01:04:16.519 are put to death for misappropriating the implements of worship. 1094 01:04:16.639 --> 01:04:19.000 But in the reform mindset, I thought you guys believed 1095 01:04:19.000 --> 01:04:20.239 in the regular principal worship? 1096 01:04:22.159 --> 01:04:25.000 What would that be or would you find that as I. 1097 01:04:25.039 --> 01:04:27.679 Mean, you don't know your own traditions definition of the regulars. 1098 01:04:28.400 --> 01:04:29.440 I don't know by that term. 1099 01:04:31.159 --> 01:04:34.239 It's literally one of the one of the most famous 1100 01:04:34.480 --> 01:04:36.840 terms in the history of reform theology. You've never heard 1101 01:04:36.840 --> 01:04:39.960 of the regular prince of worship? No, no, I'm asking 1102 01:04:40.000 --> 01:04:42.599 you if you Cashew well, I want you to in 1103 01:04:42.679 --> 01:04:45.199 your reformed you are here to debate. You don't know 1104 01:04:45.360 --> 01:04:46.519 this term from your tradition. 1105 01:04:47.280 --> 01:04:48.000 Oh yeah, I told you. 1106 01:04:49.320 --> 01:04:51.599 Okay, stop playing dumb and be honest. 1107 01:04:52.320 --> 01:04:55.360 No, I whatever it is in that that sort of 1108 01:04:55.440 --> 01:04:57.360 category of the name you named it as. 1109 01:04:57.360 --> 01:04:59.000 Maybe do you think I made that up? 1110 01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:01.639 No, I'm not saying I'm not saying that. No. 1111 01:05:01.760 --> 01:05:03.920 Okay, So how reformed are you? 1112 01:05:04.079 --> 01:05:04.119 Like? 1113 01:05:04.599 --> 01:05:05.199 Is this new to you? 1114 01:05:05.400 --> 01:05:08.079 Or have you been this six caist what I've been 1115 01:05:08.639 --> 01:05:09.800 of a six point Calvinist? 1116 01:05:11.559 --> 01:05:13.400 How long have you been reformed? That's what I asked? 1117 01:05:14.280 --> 01:05:15.880 Oh for three years? Not maybe about three or four 1118 01:05:15.880 --> 01:05:16.039 of you. 1119 01:05:16.239 --> 01:05:18.719 Okay, And you don't know about the regular principal worship? 1120 01:05:19.960 --> 01:05:21.639 No, No, I mean I wouldn't. 1121 01:05:22.159 --> 01:05:27.199 Do you follow the Westminster Confession? Yes, okay, this is 1122 01:05:27.280 --> 01:05:31.480 a pretty well known thing from the Westminster Confession? Do 1123 01:05:31.559 --> 01:05:33.559 you follow the original west mister? Maybe you follow some 1124 01:05:33.960 --> 01:05:35.119 edited version or something. 1125 01:05:36.039 --> 01:05:38.559 Well, I mean most of the people that I would 1126 01:05:38.719 --> 01:05:40.800 prescribe to as good teachers and stuff like that, do 1127 01:05:41.440 --> 01:05:44.280 I think the London Baptism Confession is what most churches 1128 01:05:44.320 --> 01:05:45.800 that I would associate. 1129 01:05:45.320 --> 01:05:46.320 With would follow. 1130 01:05:46.800 --> 01:05:49.639 Okay, that's not the So you're a reform Baptist, not 1131 01:05:49.719 --> 01:05:52.199 a Presbyterian, So that's not the original Westminster Confession? 1132 01:05:53.599 --> 01:05:57.239 Okay? Yeah, yeah, But but I mean. 1133 01:05:57.760 --> 01:05:59.559 And what is the sixth point of Calvinism? 1134 01:05:59.760 --> 01:06:02.960 I'm never heard of this stool Upso the sovereignty of God. 1135 01:06:05.079 --> 01:06:06.719 It's five points, what's the sixth? 1136 01:06:06.920 --> 01:06:09.000 I know this is what James White would say, is 1137 01:06:09.159 --> 01:06:10.599 the extraditions to. 1138 01:06:11.639 --> 01:06:13.559 So you're trolling as a reform Protestant. 1139 01:06:14.000 --> 01:06:19.159 No I am A I am. I just don't get 1140 01:06:19.199 --> 01:06:19.960 what you think I'd. 1141 01:06:19.800 --> 01:06:24.280 Controlling because you're you're you're deflecting and not being clear 1142 01:06:24.360 --> 01:06:27.159 about what your position is. So you said you're reformed, 1143 01:06:27.199 --> 01:06:29.239 and then you said six point Calvinism, but you've never 1144 01:06:29.320 --> 01:06:30.559 heard the regular principal worship. 1145 01:06:30.599 --> 01:06:33.280 Even though this is like, let's not let's not get 1146 01:06:33.400 --> 01:06:35.119 let's get stuck in that. I like to talk to 1147 01:06:35.119 --> 01:06:36.159 you about final authorities. 1148 01:06:36.519 --> 01:06:39.159 If you would be really well, I mean, this is 1149 01:06:39.199 --> 01:06:42.440 going to matter because like the point that I'm making 1150 01:06:42.679 --> 01:06:45.719 is that if your tradition is going, if you want 1151 01:06:45.719 --> 01:06:47.440 to be consistent with your tradition, and I'm sure you 1152 01:06:47.519 --> 01:06:50.199 don't care because in you guys' position, you can disagree 1153 01:06:50.239 --> 01:06:53.519 with the generation right before you, uh, then you would 1154 01:06:53.519 --> 01:06:55.719 think that God, if you would think that God, who 1155 01:06:55.760 --> 01:06:57.800 cares so much about his worship in the Book of 1156 01:06:58.079 --> 01:06:59.920 Leviticus that he would kill people for doing it wrong, 1157 01:07:00.320 --> 01:07:02.199 would have given the New Testament Church a pattern of 1158 01:07:02.239 --> 01:07:04.440 worship Yeah, I'm just. 1159 01:07:04.480 --> 01:07:06.199 Confused how you can take that out of context in 1160 01:07:06.239 --> 01:07:07.480 the Old Testament implying that to. 1161 01:07:07.599 --> 01:07:10.639 Anything, because your entire tradition that you don't even know 1162 01:07:11.400 --> 01:07:15.079 always has done that. So what was an example of 1163 01:07:15.519 --> 01:07:19.039 the regulative principle of worship in the entire Reform tradition? 1164 01:07:19.199 --> 01:07:20.360 That's the example. 1165 01:07:21.599 --> 01:07:21.880 You got. 1166 01:07:22.280 --> 01:07:24.679 You guys killed each other. You guys killed each other 1167 01:07:24.760 --> 01:07:25.880 over this. You don't even know that. 1168 01:07:27.119 --> 01:07:29.719 Yeah, that's relevance to No, it's not. 1169 01:07:30.599 --> 01:07:32.760 No, it's not because you're part of a tradition that 1170 01:07:32.840 --> 01:07:35.760 you can at whim disregard and say I don't care. 1171 01:07:35.800 --> 01:07:38.559 It doesn't matter when the argument is about whether there's 1172 01:07:38.559 --> 01:07:41.159 apostolic tradition that's liturgy or not. That's my point. 1173 01:07:41.679 --> 01:07:44.239 I'm saying that the God's word that He's given us 1174 01:07:44.559 --> 01:07:46.760 is what we need to do, what we need to 1175 01:07:46.840 --> 01:07:47.360 have in mind. 1176 01:07:48.119 --> 01:07:51.079 Okay, why didn't God? Because God cares so much about worship, 1177 01:07:51.119 --> 01:07:53.559 and your own tradition has debated and killed each other 1178 01:07:53.679 --> 01:07:56.440 over this, why didn't he provide a liturgy in the 1179 01:07:56.440 --> 01:07:56.960 New Testament? 1180 01:07:57.679 --> 01:08:00.159 Yeah, the way he worships lay down to the fundamental No, 1181 01:08:00.280 --> 01:08:00.519 it's not. 1182 01:08:01.079 --> 01:08:05.159 No, it's not Where is there where is the liturgy 1183 01:08:05.159 --> 01:08:05.920 in the New Testament? 1184 01:08:06.519 --> 01:08:07.960 The concepts are there? What are you talking? 1185 01:08:08.079 --> 01:08:11.199 The concepts are there, the liturgy itself is not there. 1186 01:08:12.079 --> 01:08:18.159 So where does that come from? Where's your preset position 1187 01:08:18.239 --> 01:08:19.960 that liturgy is even coming from? 1188 01:08:20.960 --> 01:08:24.680 Because God kills people over this principle, and he consistently 1189 01:08:24.760 --> 01:08:26.560 kills people over this principle. Because Paul says that if 1190 01:08:26.600 --> 01:08:29.199 you eat and drink unworthily, God will kill you, so 1191 01:08:29.279 --> 01:08:31.760 it would seem pretty important, and it's something that God 1192 01:08:31.840 --> 01:08:33.000 didn't put in the written texts. 1193 01:08:34.199 --> 01:08:36.319 So because you're saying God kills. 1194 01:08:36.119 --> 01:08:39.600 People, who do you have to restate my argument? And 1195 01:08:39.720 --> 01:08:41.680 you can't hear the argument. You have to repeat everything 1196 01:08:41.720 --> 01:08:42.079 else said. 1197 01:08:42.600 --> 01:08:48.119 I make sure I understood it right, So I just 1198 01:08:48.159 --> 01:08:48.760 confuse how that. 1199 01:08:50.359 --> 01:08:52.600 It's trying. How everyone else can understand this argument, but 1200 01:08:52.720 --> 01:08:56.119 you're confused over it? Why is that funny? 1201 01:08:57.079 --> 01:08:59.119 I thought that was a random point to bring up, 1202 01:08:59.159 --> 01:09:01.039 But well, why do you have to. 1203 01:09:01.079 --> 01:09:03.199 Keep repeating everything I say? Do you have a low 1204 01:09:03.279 --> 01:09:04.439 IQ or are you having a hard time? 1205 01:09:04.880 --> 01:09:07.479 I could what would that be relevant for the conversation 1206 01:09:07.560 --> 01:09:08.319 of the Final Authority? 1207 01:09:08.399 --> 01:09:09.800 Because I'm trying to figure out why you have to 1208 01:09:09.840 --> 01:09:10.720 repeat everything I. 1209 01:09:10.800 --> 01:09:13.760 Say, and make sure I understood it right to be scharitable. 1210 01:09:14.039 --> 01:09:15.800 Okay, so you're slow, I got it. 1211 01:09:17.119 --> 01:09:18.800 Yeah, that's the one way to put it. So anyway, 1212 01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:21.159 So you want to say that the holy spirits of 1213 01:09:21.159 --> 01:09:21.720 the final authority? 1214 01:09:21.760 --> 01:09:22.039 Correct? 1215 01:09:22.880 --> 01:09:23.640 I already said that. 1216 01:09:24.560 --> 01:09:26.399 Okay, So what does it have to do with anything 1217 01:09:26.439 --> 01:09:30.119 else that the Orthodox brings into in terms of it's 1218 01:09:30.159 --> 01:09:32.319 finalizing anything, any type of authority? 1219 01:09:32.359 --> 01:09:33.159 So what does that do? 1220 01:09:33.359 --> 01:09:35.439 So that's why I said the very beginning normative. 1221 01:09:35.119 --> 01:09:39.840 Authority, meaning that it's typically the case. 1222 01:09:41.119 --> 01:09:42.640 Do you know the difference between those things? 1223 01:09:43.640 --> 01:09:45.319 Oh? That's why I'm asking a clarifying question. 1224 01:09:45.399 --> 01:09:47.399 Oh you came to debate, and now you're playing like 1225 01:09:47.479 --> 01:09:50.119 you're here to ask questions? So are you here to 1226 01:09:50.159 --> 01:09:51.319 ask questions? You're here at debate? 1227 01:09:52.439 --> 01:09:54.439 That's part of the debate, is it not? Is it 1228 01:09:54.520 --> 01:09:54.920 not a question? 1229 01:09:55.880 --> 01:09:57.399 It seems like if you wanted to debate, you would 1230 01:09:57.479 --> 01:09:59.399 know the positions you're debating. But so are you here 1231 01:09:59.479 --> 01:10:00.680 to learn or you hear to debate? 1232 01:10:01.760 --> 01:10:04.319 I mean I would love to learn, well, debating I 1233 01:10:04.399 --> 01:10:05.079 have no problem with that. 1234 01:10:07.239 --> 01:10:08.000 What was the question? 1235 01:10:09.359 --> 01:10:12.800 So I'm asking you, based on what you previously said, 1236 01:10:12.800 --> 01:10:16.439 that the Holy Spirit is a final authority. Right then, 1237 01:10:16.800 --> 01:10:18.800 how does that come into play with all the other factors, 1238 01:10:19.000 --> 01:10:19.920 like the oral tradition? 1239 01:10:20.479 --> 01:10:20.600 Right? 1240 01:10:20.680 --> 01:10:22.760 Deciphering what the oral tradition is? How would the Holy 1241 01:10:22.840 --> 01:10:25.039 Spirit deciphered the correct oral tradition. 1242 01:10:25.279 --> 01:10:27.399 And all the other bishops, I mean, the same way, 1243 01:10:27.600 --> 01:10:30.319 just the same way he deciphered it in preserving it 1244 01:10:30.399 --> 01:10:32.600 from the time of Adam until Moses wrote it down. 1245 01:10:33.479 --> 01:10:35.960 Yeah, how would I objectively be able to affirm that? What? 1246 01:10:37.199 --> 01:10:39.119 How would I objectively be able to confirm that? 1247 01:10:39.840 --> 01:10:41.760 I mean, isn't that your own position? 1248 01:10:44.319 --> 01:10:46.239 So you are you saying that the Holy Spirit makes 1249 01:10:46.319 --> 01:10:48.239 me feel that this is correct? Like that's a position? 1250 01:10:48.439 --> 01:10:50.239 What did I say about anything that it was making 1251 01:10:50.279 --> 01:10:52.960 you feel something? You don't believe that the Holy Spirit? Listen, 1252 01:10:53.199 --> 01:10:55.800 you don't believe the Holy Spirit guided oral tradition from 1253 01:10:55.880 --> 01:10:56.680 Adam to Moses. 1254 01:10:58.399 --> 01:10:59.359 No, no, I don't believe that. 1255 01:11:01.039 --> 01:11:04.119 Okay, then you're not reformed anymore. So what are you 1256 01:11:04.199 --> 01:11:05.600 just changing your positions on the spot? 1257 01:11:06.800 --> 01:11:08.520 No, I don't think. 1258 01:11:08.720 --> 01:11:11.000 Okay, I'm sicky or at your laugh, your condescending laugh 1259 01:11:11.079 --> 01:11:12.760 is getting on my nerves. What how do you not 1260 01:11:12.920 --> 01:11:16.920 understand that you're not reformed? 1261 01:11:18.319 --> 01:11:19.600 That has nothing to do with or traditions. 1262 01:11:19.640 --> 01:11:21.920 Of course, yes it does. So how do you think 1263 01:11:22.000 --> 01:11:25.279 that the message came from Adam until Moses wrote it down? 1264 01:11:26.960 --> 01:11:29.439 The entire point is when Moses, when God gave a 1265 01:11:29.600 --> 01:11:32.039 certain point for him to write. 1266 01:11:31.880 --> 01:11:33.600 It down God and to be carried out. 1267 01:11:34.239 --> 01:11:38.119 So you're I'm sorry, I'm asking you how did they 1268 01:11:38.199 --> 01:11:40.800 transmit it through those generations? You don't understand this question? 1269 01:11:40.920 --> 01:11:42.439 Do I need to draw it on a board for you? 1270 01:11:43.560 --> 01:11:47.279 Yeah, that org tradition and the story is being transformed 1271 01:11:47.359 --> 01:11:50.359 or what I'm saying, keep keeping going in them that 1272 01:11:50.640 --> 01:11:53.359 has nothing to do well, I'm just saying that, are you. 1273 01:11:53.399 --> 01:11:56.199 Too stupid to even understand what I'm answering your question? 1274 01:11:56.359 --> 01:11:58.439 You said, how is the Holy Spirit doing this the 1275 01:11:58.560 --> 01:12:01.159 same way he did it from Adam to Moses? You 1276 01:12:01.359 --> 01:12:03.199 just said you just said it's oral? 1277 01:12:03.359 --> 01:12:03.760 Did you not? 1278 01:12:04.319 --> 01:12:06.920 Did you not admit it's oral? So you're saying you 1279 01:12:07.039 --> 01:12:10.000 have the same Why do you keep restating what I said? 1280 01:12:10.199 --> 01:12:10.439 This is? 1281 01:12:10.640 --> 01:12:12.520 This is like mind control or something. I'm trying to 1282 01:12:12.640 --> 01:12:14.520 plug in the dots, right, I'm sure to make sure 1283 01:12:14.720 --> 01:12:17.560 from the time of Adam to Moses you just said oral. 1284 01:12:17.680 --> 01:12:18.800 So you admitted my point. 1285 01:12:19.920 --> 01:12:21.760 So I'm asking, he's that the same thing you think 1286 01:12:21.840 --> 01:12:23.560 you have? Right from Adam? 1287 01:12:23.680 --> 01:12:25.720 You said, how does the Holy Spirit do it? I said, 1288 01:12:25.760 --> 01:12:26.560 the same way he did it? 1289 01:12:26.640 --> 01:12:29.800 Then that's completely a different sort of. 1290 01:12:29.880 --> 01:12:33.359 Idea, you know, it's not. It's you're asking my position. 1291 01:12:33.439 --> 01:12:35.359 I'm explaining it's literally no different than the way he 1292 01:12:35.399 --> 01:12:35.840 preserved it. 1293 01:12:35.880 --> 01:12:40.319 Then, So children talking about their own history, about how 1294 01:12:40.359 --> 01:12:42.880 God had been has been working in their culture. 1295 01:12:43.119 --> 01:12:44.840 It's completely different than having. 1296 01:12:44.640 --> 01:12:47.439 Done children talking about what are you even talking about? 1297 01:12:47.520 --> 01:12:49.800 Children talking about God working? What the hell are you 1298 01:12:49.840 --> 01:12:50.359 talking about? 1299 01:12:50.680 --> 01:12:52.680 Yeah, we're talking about like for like the in the 1300 01:12:52.720 --> 01:12:55.479 context the concept of ancient Israel. Right, so God is 1301 01:12:55.520 --> 01:12:58.279 literally working through this shertain type of people group and 1302 01:12:58.319 --> 01:13:00.159 everything like that, and the stories. 1303 01:12:59.840 --> 01:13:02.199 Of you don't even know that your own tradition from 1304 01:13:02.239 --> 01:13:05.840 Adam to Moses teaches that God preserved that tradition, that 1305 01:13:06.039 --> 01:13:07.439 oral transmission. You don't even know that. 1306 01:13:08.000 --> 01:13:09.520 Oh, I know, I can read my Bible and find 1307 01:13:09.560 --> 01:13:10.439 that out. That's fine with me. 1308 01:13:11.119 --> 01:13:13.359 Where does the Bible tell you that the oral tradition 1309 01:13:13.560 --> 01:13:14.039 was preserved? 1310 01:13:14.800 --> 01:13:16.520 Again, it's it's no need. 1311 01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:22.119 Okay, you're literally a mentally unstable weirdo. Like, literally, what 1312 01:13:22.199 --> 01:13:24.920 you're saying makes note you don't even understand what's being said. 1313 01:13:25.760 --> 01:13:27.119 Where does your Bible tell you that? 1314 01:13:28.479 --> 01:13:30.560 Where does my Bible tell me what? Well? 1315 01:13:30.800 --> 01:13:32.119 You said? All I need to do is read the 1316 01:13:32.199 --> 01:13:34.119 Bible to figure that out. Where does it. 1317 01:13:34.119 --> 01:13:37.319 Tell you that Jesus he's access standards to the phares 1318 01:13:37.840 --> 01:13:38.960 he's asked, is it not? 1319 01:13:39.159 --> 01:13:41.239 Where does that tell you the Holy Spirit guided oral 1320 01:13:41.319 --> 01:13:44.319 tradition from Adam to Moses. So now you do believe 1321 01:13:44.359 --> 01:13:49.640 that I said no from the beginning, But then you 1322 01:13:49.800 --> 01:13:52.800 just said that the Bible tells you that no. 1323 01:13:52.960 --> 01:13:54.960 The Bible tells me again, what I need to know 1324 01:13:55.079 --> 01:13:58.359 about any sort of tradition or anything about God, any stories? 1325 01:14:00.239 --> 01:14:03.880 How do you think the tradition was preserved from Adam 1326 01:14:03.960 --> 01:14:08.680 to Moses? The stories that you read about in the Torah? 1327 01:14:12.760 --> 01:14:16.319 This is this is this is the stupidest conversation I've 1328 01:14:16.319 --> 01:14:24.479 ever read. We're done. Como, h. 1329 01:14:26.439 --> 01:14:33.640 Hello, cayep yo. What's up? Jay? Yeah, I'm not gonna 1330 01:14:33.640 --> 01:14:35.840 take up too much time. I got three questions. I 1331 01:14:35.880 --> 01:14:38.239 could just rapid fire them. You can answer, and I'll 1332 01:14:38.319 --> 01:14:39.359 come back and listen to it later. 1333 01:14:41.319 --> 01:14:44.199 All right, So first question is who or what movement 1334 01:14:44.319 --> 01:14:47.920 spawned the idea of the one, true, Holy and Apostolic 1335 01:14:48.039 --> 01:14:49.720 Church being on invisible. 1336 01:14:49.319 --> 01:14:51.640 Church, And on what basis did they come to that conclusion. 1337 01:14:52.880 --> 01:14:56.520 It's first found amongst the donuts, and then it's repeated 1338 01:14:56.600 --> 01:14:57.399 by Calvinists. 1339 01:14:58.600 --> 01:14:59.239 Okay, cool. 1340 01:15:00.079 --> 01:15:02.960 Second, you'll often hear Protestants say things like I was 1341 01:15:03.000 --> 01:15:05.479 guided about the Holy Spirit, or you're not a spirit 1342 01:15:05.560 --> 01:15:06.680 feel Christian, et cetera. 1343 01:15:07.199 --> 01:15:09.199 So I'm sure it's safe to say that most. 1344 01:15:09.079 --> 01:15:11.960 Protestants think by believing in Jesus Christ in a mental 1345 01:15:12.239 --> 01:15:15.720 sense and professing Jesus as like Lord and Savior verbally, 1346 01:15:16.760 --> 01:15:19.560 is at that very moment you're giving the Holy Spirit. 1347 01:15:19.640 --> 01:15:22.119 So I'm wondering what is the traditional. 1348 01:15:21.800 --> 01:15:24.520 Orthodoxy on receiving the Holy Spirit or what must be 1349 01:15:24.600 --> 01:15:25.800 done to inherit the Holy Spirit. 1350 01:15:26.319 --> 01:15:28.920 Well, it's not just being baptized and brought into the 1351 01:15:29.039 --> 01:15:32.239 church in that way through catechisystem baptism, and then you 1352 01:15:32.359 --> 01:15:36.119 have christ Mation, so they no Protestants have christ Mation. 1353 01:15:36.279 --> 01:15:38.079 So that's one of the key elements that's missing. 1354 01:15:39.479 --> 01:15:42.640 Okay, cool, all right, next one, this is the Okay, 1355 01:15:42.880 --> 01:15:43.960 this is probably the last one. 1356 01:15:44.319 --> 01:15:47.920 So I got a friend who recently rediscovered his Christian roots. 1357 01:15:48.159 --> 01:15:51.479 He calls himself a Christian. He's a Catholic, but he 1358 01:15:51.600 --> 01:15:53.920 still holds on to like sort of and sort of 1359 01:15:54.000 --> 01:15:57.680 embraces some of Nietzsche and Carl Jung's. 1360 01:15:57.319 --> 01:16:01.600 Philosophy, specifically stuff like bracing the uber minch or the 1361 01:16:01.720 --> 01:16:03.319 shade within and stuff like that. 1362 01:16:03.520 --> 01:16:06.960 I'm not really too well versed on Knetzsche and Carl Jung, 1363 01:16:07.119 --> 01:16:09.159 but I got some of the books I bottom a 1364 01:16:09.159 --> 01:16:10.239 while ago, just never read them. 1365 01:16:10.479 --> 01:16:12.800 So when I hear him say stuff like that, I 1366 01:16:12.920 --> 01:16:13.840 think that sounds like. 1367 01:16:13.960 --> 01:16:16.159 Demonic and I wouldn't like, I would err on him 1368 01:16:16.239 --> 01:16:17.600 not leaning into stuff like that. 1369 01:16:17.720 --> 01:16:18.680 But what's your thoughts? 1370 01:16:19.039 --> 01:16:22.319 Yeah, it's of course that's deemonica. It's like the uber 1371 01:16:22.399 --> 01:16:25.239 minche was that have to deal with Christianity to the 1372 01:16:25.279 --> 01:16:27.720 guy in the chat annoying to say the least, if 1373 01:16:27.760 --> 01:16:29.600 you don't call in, you get booted. So this is 1374 01:16:29.680 --> 01:16:32.840 not for you to come spam all your evangelical gibberish 1375 01:16:32.840 --> 01:16:45.199 in the chat value machine. Yeah, I'm having to unwind 1376 01:16:45.279 --> 01:16:50.039 from that like mind controlled madness of that previous goofball. 1377 01:16:55.319 --> 01:16:57.760 I mean to not know what the regulative principal worship 1378 01:16:57.960 --> 01:17:00.279 is tells me that that person does even know what 1379 01:17:00.399 --> 01:17:02.600 the reform tradition is. And so how are you going 1380 01:17:02.640 --> 01:17:04.479 to come debate this and try to act like you're 1381 01:17:04.560 --> 01:17:12.199 some like that's just nonsense. Okay, well it comes to 1382 01:17:12.279 --> 01:17:16.079 the to the chat or not value. What's up on? Mute? 1383 01:17:17.000 --> 01:17:17.439 Hey man? 1384 01:17:17.920 --> 01:17:19.439 I want to thank you first of all for everything 1385 01:17:19.479 --> 01:17:19.960 that you're doing. 1386 01:17:21.199 --> 01:17:24.800 I'm not coming to debate you do, just have a question. 1387 01:17:26.399 --> 01:17:28.600 I'm an Orthodox Christian three course dogs. 1388 01:17:29.920 --> 01:17:32.079 I'm not doing fic qu'es today, man, So please if 1389 01:17:32.119 --> 01:17:34.880 it's an e fic you question, you can find it online. 1390 01:17:34.960 --> 01:17:35.960 So what's your question? 1391 01:17:37.000 --> 01:17:38.439 It's all good then, I just wanted to ask you 1392 01:17:38.520 --> 01:17:42.039 about like two things. The first one is the christology, 1393 01:17:42.600 --> 01:17:45.520 you know, nature nature of Jesus, Jesus, and. 1394 01:17:45.520 --> 01:17:48.640 The second one would be as my own family. 1395 01:17:49.760 --> 01:17:52.279 And what was the question? What's the first question? 1396 01:17:52.840 --> 01:17:55.319 The first question is the nature of nature of Jesus right, 1397 01:17:55.479 --> 01:17:55.880 like what. 1398 01:17:55.920 --> 01:17:57.600 Do you mean? What's How's that a question? 1399 01:17:58.359 --> 01:17:58.399 No? 1400 01:17:58.640 --> 01:18:01.920 So if you can't explain it it of how like 1401 01:18:02.239 --> 01:18:06.640 the Greek Orthodox or the Orthodox viewpoint of how we 1402 01:18:06.760 --> 01:18:09.239 believe like Jesus was right like the natures and everything. 1403 01:18:09.800 --> 01:18:12.000 If a tafic you question, then fine, that's. 1404 01:18:12.119 --> 01:18:13.640 I'm not trying to be rude. That's a basic I 1405 01:18:13.640 --> 01:18:17.640 would say, go read uh Dogmatic Theology by Palmazanski and 1406 01:18:17.720 --> 01:18:20.199 he will give you a basic introduction to the hypostatic union. 1407 01:18:20.720 --> 01:18:23.319 Thank you so much, forth, I gotcha, Sure, thank you. 1408 01:18:23.680 --> 01:18:25.920 No problem. I'm not trying to be rude, but we're 1409 01:18:25.960 --> 01:18:28.119 not doing basic q and A today. This is for 1410 01:18:28.319 --> 01:18:32.359 people who disagree, So debate Islam, Atheism, Catholics, and protests 1411 01:18:32.399 --> 01:18:34.800 of Gnostic Mormon, JW, Hebrew roots whatever. 1412 01:18:35.479 --> 01:18:35.640 Uh. 1413 01:18:36.520 --> 01:18:40.439 Please do not ask me a bunch of basic Orthodox questions. 1414 01:18:41.079 --> 01:18:44.079 So this is for people who disagree. Raise your hand 1415 01:18:44.079 --> 01:18:47.399 if you disagree, Benny. 1416 01:18:52.439 --> 01:18:53.439 You what's up? 1417 01:18:56.640 --> 01:18:56.960 Okay? 1418 01:18:57.119 --> 01:19:01.800 So I want to Yeah, you're talking about that the 1419 01:19:01.920 --> 01:19:03.680 Quran has the Trinity wrong? 1420 01:19:04.119 --> 01:19:08.159 Can you can you show that please? It's also a myss. 1421 01:19:09.319 --> 01:19:11.840 Like the last time I came with the myth that. 1422 01:19:11.960 --> 01:19:16.520 The Quran talks about the same so uh that you 1423 01:19:16.960 --> 01:19:18.439 believe in there's also a myth. 1424 01:19:18.560 --> 01:19:19.680 So I dismantled that. 1425 01:19:20.680 --> 01:19:23.319 You didn't dismantle it. You said a bunch of stupid 1426 01:19:23.359 --> 01:19:26.520 ship and then you didn't have an answer. All right, 1427 01:19:26.600 --> 01:19:28.359 Now you're not gonna say you're not gonna talk over 1428 01:19:28.439 --> 01:19:31.880 me with those nonsense you get out of here. You 1429 01:19:32.399 --> 01:19:35.000 do you really think you dismantled the last time you 1430 01:19:35.039 --> 01:19:38.479 were in here? Yes, my claim was, and how did 1431 01:19:38.560 --> 01:19:42.119 you You didn't even you couldn't even restate my argument? 1432 01:19:42.199 --> 01:19:43.399 How do you think you dismantled it? 1433 01:19:44.760 --> 01:19:45.359 If there is it? 1434 01:19:45.520 --> 01:19:51.159 So you my plim my argument. 1435 01:19:52.439 --> 01:19:53.800 Can you restate my argument? 1436 01:19:55.000 --> 01:19:55.680 No, but you. 1437 01:20:02.560 --> 01:20:14.640 Beak did none through even though he couldn't even state 1438 01:20:14.680 --> 01:20:17.840 what the argument is. Trust me, bro, he dismantled it. 1439 01:20:23.479 --> 01:20:25.520 I gotta I'm getting a little two heated. Hey, Jamie, 1440 01:20:27.479 --> 01:20:29.600 I need a I need a ginger chew. My my 1441 01:20:29.720 --> 01:20:32.840 blood sugars, my beat us is getting off the charts. 1442 01:20:33.520 --> 01:20:35.239 Could you bring me a ginger chew? 1443 01:20:35.279 --> 01:20:35.800 And uh? 1444 01:20:35.840 --> 01:20:37.399 And I don't need more coffee. I'm gonna got to 1445 01:20:37.479 --> 01:20:41.359 I'm gonna get too heated with the idiots. Bring me 1446 01:20:41.439 --> 01:20:45.800 one ginger you please? Thank you? Okay. Beecke is having 1447 01:20:45.800 --> 01:20:49.960 a hard time connecting, so we'll go to Dallas. 1448 01:20:57.399 --> 01:21:04.159 Yep, Yeah, So I I actually read the Dudo canonical books, 1449 01:21:04.920 --> 01:21:07.800 like I guess what was the last month? 1450 01:21:08.000 --> 01:21:08.039 Like? 1451 01:21:08.359 --> 01:21:12.119 From first isdras all the way to second Maccabee's I 1452 01:21:12.239 --> 01:21:13.319 was just wondering. 1453 01:21:16.439 --> 01:21:17.319 What what is the. 1454 01:21:19.039 --> 01:21:22.159 Does the Greek Orthodox? So you guys reconcile? How do 1455 01:21:22.239 --> 01:21:23.880 y'all reconcile the beginning of Judith? 1456 01:21:25.800 --> 01:21:25.920 Uh? 1457 01:21:26.840 --> 01:21:30.279 You're talking about when it mentions a king? That is 1458 01:21:30.319 --> 01:21:32.039 that we're talking about that. I'm going from memory. I 1459 01:21:32.039 --> 01:21:33.439 haven't looked at this a long time, is it? 1460 01:21:36.479 --> 01:21:36.520 So? 1461 01:21:36.960 --> 01:21:39.920 The Jews? The Jews typically will use the term of 1462 01:21:40.039 --> 01:21:42.680 one king to reference to all of their enemies for 1463 01:21:42.760 --> 01:21:46.319 all time, Like Amelek becomes a forever a reference to 1464 01:21:46.600 --> 01:21:49.600 every enemy of Israel, even though Amelek was dead a 1465 01:21:49.640 --> 01:21:50.239 long time ago. 1466 01:21:51.920 --> 01:21:56.079 Okay, So I've heard, I've heard, well, I research, like 1467 01:21:56.399 --> 01:21:59.960 Catholics try to give me the answer, and they basically talk, 1468 01:22:00.199 --> 01:22:03.800 but they basically said that, like the region of Assyria 1469 01:22:04.039 --> 01:22:07.920 was like a huge region that included Babylon also. 1470 01:22:07.920 --> 01:22:11.720 So, I mean the Book of Revelation calls, you know, 1471 01:22:12.880 --> 01:22:16.520 Israel at the time of Christ Sodom and Gomorrah. I 1472 01:22:16.600 --> 01:22:18.279 mean the Jews do this often? 1473 01:22:18.840 --> 01:22:21.560 Okay, all right, Yeah, that's all I wanted to know. 1474 01:22:21.760 --> 01:22:25.640 That's okay. I mean it's a common objection. I don't 1475 01:22:25.680 --> 01:22:27.920 I don't think it's a very strong objection. I mean 1476 01:22:28.439 --> 01:22:30.960 the same higher critics will point to similar types of 1477 01:22:31.039 --> 01:22:34.840 things in the canonical text. So who disagrees? So we 1478 01:22:34.960 --> 01:22:39.720 got a bunch of people, fifteen people. I'm eating ginger 1479 01:22:39.880 --> 01:22:42.359 cheese to calm down before you start fussing at me 1480 01:22:42.399 --> 01:22:48.880 forgetting got to calm down. And actually people think he's 1481 01:22:48.920 --> 01:22:54.039 so mean. The quote meanness actually is because of just 1482 01:22:54.119 --> 01:22:57.039 low blood sugar at time like that. That's all it is. 1483 01:22:58.199 --> 01:23:04.520 Because people will say, how see sometimes he's super patient. Yeah, 1484 01:23:04.560 --> 01:23:05.760 it's because of love bluture. 1485 01:23:05.840 --> 01:23:06.079 That's it. 1486 01:23:06.119 --> 01:23:12.479 So I gotta have a ginger chew Greek Greek name. Man, 1487 01:23:12.600 --> 01:23:19.439 I can't see what that says. The Chat is saying 1488 01:23:19.439 --> 01:23:24.079 to be more mean, more meon or more mean? Go ahead, man, 1489 01:23:24.119 --> 01:23:24.760 what's up? I'm you. 1490 01:23:27.039 --> 01:23:33.000 Hey jay, I'm a Catechuban. I had not here to debate. 1491 01:23:33.039 --> 01:23:33.680 You have a question. 1492 01:23:36.600 --> 01:23:39.640 So I have an acquaintance that goes to Catholic confession, 1493 01:23:40.319 --> 01:23:42.840 cites Bible versus like a Protestant. 1494 01:23:42.920 --> 01:23:46.359 And yet it has the audacity to say that the 1495 01:23:46.560 --> 01:23:47.439 Orthodox Church is. 1496 01:23:49.239 --> 01:23:51.720 Told the true Church. How does what sort of like 1497 01:23:52.159 --> 01:23:54.039 what sort of rebuttal do you have for someone who 1498 01:23:54.119 --> 01:23:54.399 does that? 1499 01:23:54.920 --> 01:24:02.520 Who says what you cut out. Hello, rebettal to what 1500 01:24:02.600 --> 01:24:03.119 you cut out? 1501 01:24:04.479 --> 01:24:05.119 That's a connection? 1502 01:24:09.079 --> 01:24:11.039 You cut out? Man, I can't. I couldn't get that question. 1503 01:24:11.159 --> 01:24:12.880 Try to come out and come back in bea want 1504 01:24:12.880 --> 01:24:21.079 to try again. I got my ginger chew. I'll calm 1505 01:24:21.119 --> 01:24:27.520 him down now, beak, I'm mute. 1506 01:24:28.399 --> 01:24:30.239 Yo. Hello Jay? What's up? You hear me? 1507 01:24:30.479 --> 01:24:30.840 Yes, sir? 1508 01:24:31.960 --> 01:24:32.600 Oh hey Jay? 1509 01:24:32.720 --> 01:24:35.760 So Roman Catholic here. I just had a couple of questions. 1510 01:24:35.840 --> 01:24:38.720 So I watched your you know, reasons not be Roman 1511 01:24:38.800 --> 01:24:41.840 Catholic video, and well, I thought it was persuasive. I 1512 01:24:41.920 --> 01:24:44.680 saw a response that I think kind of just put 1513 01:24:44.720 --> 01:24:47.319 you in shambles. It was by this guy named Michael Lofton. 1514 01:24:47.399 --> 01:24:48.199 Have you ever heard of him? 1515 01:24:50.760 --> 01:24:51.399 Is that a joke? 1516 01:24:52.640 --> 01:24:52.800 Well? 1517 01:24:52.840 --> 01:24:54.520 No, I just think he pointed out how you were 1518 01:24:54.600 --> 01:24:56.520 being really uncharitable, so you kind of have no. 1519 01:24:56.600 --> 01:24:59.520 Like, okay, you're joking uncharitable. 1520 01:25:03.000 --> 01:25:04.640 Well, I'm just wondering, you know, when are you gonna, 1521 01:25:04.760 --> 01:25:06.760 you know, join the One True Church? You know, it's. 1522 01:25:08.800 --> 01:25:10.800 Do you have an argument or what's what's up? 1523 01:25:11.439 --> 01:25:14.039 Well? Yeah, I'm asking you, you know, so all. 1524 01:25:13.960 --> 01:25:21.680 Right, that's really funny. I honestly can't tell that I 1525 01:25:21.800 --> 01:25:25.600 was joking me answerious, It could go either way. Alexander, 1526 01:25:30.359 --> 01:25:32.079 I'm in shambles. From Michael Lufton. 1527 01:25:32.880 --> 01:25:37.279 Okay, quick question, would you ever debate Bartnerman? 1528 01:25:39.479 --> 01:25:41.800 I don't know. I'm not a textual scholar, so if 1529 01:25:41.840 --> 01:25:44.800 I debated him, it would be more of a philosophical debate, 1530 01:25:44.880 --> 01:25:50.000 and I doubt he would do a philosophical debate. So great, 1531 01:25:50.199 --> 01:25:52.159 bro you great and cheese in the background. What's going on? 1532 01:25:53.840 --> 01:25:54.119 Rory? 1533 01:25:59.239 --> 01:26:04.800 Does not the brood? Then you are in shambles. Broad 1534 01:26:06.039 --> 01:26:08.720 If is anybody present an argument, I've not heard one. 1535 01:26:08.800 --> 01:26:11.479 Has anybody even given an argument yet? At least the 1536 01:26:11.640 --> 01:26:14.079 romanicality at the beginning had a few questions and stay 1537 01:26:14.239 --> 01:26:16.520 and at least at tend But nobody's given an argument yet. 1538 01:26:18.000 --> 01:26:18.279 Rory. 1539 01:26:19.399 --> 01:26:23.119 Getami mm hm h. 1540 01:26:23.399 --> 01:26:24.520 Just get a question A bit. 1541 01:26:26.439 --> 01:26:30.279 Like textual criticism on the New Testament. If you've got 1542 01:26:30.479 --> 01:26:32.640 the actual and historical account of. 1543 01:26:32.680 --> 01:26:38.359 Jesus, what in your mind counts as a historical account? 1544 01:26:38.399 --> 01:26:40.520 I mean, do the New Testament texts and the thousands 1545 01:26:40.560 --> 01:26:43.760 of texts from the first few centuries count, because that's 1546 01:26:44.159 --> 01:26:46.279 more textual attestation than any other text. 1547 01:26:47.640 --> 01:26:50.279 If they're anonymous side, they're. 1548 01:26:50.159 --> 01:26:52.119 Not anonymous the tradition of the Church is that they're 1549 01:26:52.119 --> 01:26:54.039 written by other people, that they're said to be written. 1550 01:26:53.800 --> 01:26:57.800 By Butt, and scholarship disagrees with that. 1551 01:26:58.199 --> 01:27:00.640 So on what basis am I supposed follow on belie scholarship? 1552 01:27:00.640 --> 01:27:02.000 Do you agree with them on the Quran? 1553 01:27:04.640 --> 01:27:05.680 I agree with them on the Korn. 1554 01:27:06.600 --> 01:27:13.800 Yeah, you don't think that unbelieving scholars debunk the Quran? Really? 1555 01:27:16.479 --> 01:27:21.520 You don't have to like, yeah, come on, you think 1556 01:27:21.600 --> 01:27:24.439 New Testament scholar excuse me, a liberal scholars do not 1557 01:27:24.560 --> 01:27:25.359 debunk the Koran. 1558 01:27:27.279 --> 01:27:28.640 Why are we moving to the Korn? 1559 01:27:29.359 --> 01:27:31.199 Because it's illustrating a double standard? 1560 01:27:34.720 --> 01:27:37.600 Okay, okay, you don't want to address don't want to 1561 01:27:37.600 --> 01:27:38.600 address the so. 1562 01:27:38.680 --> 01:27:40.039 You're admitting it's a double standard. 1563 01:27:41.600 --> 01:27:46.159 I'm just you said, okay, what you you were? 1564 01:27:46.319 --> 01:27:48.920 You appealed to unbelieving scholars, and I said, do you 1565 01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:51.920 accept them on the Quran? So that's a double standard. 1566 01:27:52.000 --> 01:27:55.319 But you're admitting that it is anonymous. 1567 01:27:55.439 --> 01:27:57.159 No, I'm saying that you have a double standard. 1568 01:27:59.239 --> 01:28:00.000 What are they. 1569 01:28:01.439 --> 01:28:03.640 They're not anonymous by the tradition of the Church. I'm 1570 01:28:03.640 --> 01:28:06.680 not a Protestant, I'm an Orthodox. We believe in tradition. 1571 01:28:08.560 --> 01:28:10.840 So how does that tradition bring you to thinking that 1572 01:28:11.119 --> 01:28:11.840 was actually. 1573 01:28:11.760 --> 01:28:14.000 The same way that I know what the candone Scripture 1574 01:28:14.039 --> 01:28:15.840 is by tradition. So you think you're arguing to get 1575 01:28:15.880 --> 01:28:16.600 a Protestant or not. 1576 01:28:18.920 --> 01:28:21.000 I'm asking you to give me the evidence in. 1577 01:28:21.800 --> 01:28:27.520 The tradition of the church. Is the evidence? Yeah, because 1578 01:28:28.119 --> 01:28:30.600 it's believed to be the tradition that may if you right, 1579 01:28:30.720 --> 01:28:32.640 may if you you understand this is an argument I 1580 01:28:32.760 --> 01:28:35.159 use against Protestants. You don't even know I use this argument. 1581 01:28:36.920 --> 01:28:38.399 Yeah, but Matthew didn't wrot Matthew. 1582 01:28:38.760 --> 01:28:40.520 You don't know that the tradition of the church is 1583 01:28:40.560 --> 01:28:42.439 that he did. So that's a question that depends on 1584 01:28:42.520 --> 01:28:43.079 your worldview. 1585 01:28:43.319 --> 01:28:44.720 Matthew is. 1586 01:28:46.239 --> 01:28:50.159 To Mark and that's what liberal scholars say. And you 1587 01:28:50.399 --> 01:28:53.319 don't apply that standard consistently because you don't listen to 1588 01:28:53.359 --> 01:28:55.640 liberal liberal scholars on the Quran. Do you so you 1589 01:28:55.680 --> 01:28:58.720 have a double standard? Do you have a double standard? 1590 01:28:59.800 --> 01:29:00.439 Apostle? 1591 01:29:00.560 --> 01:29:03.680 Do you have a double standard or not? Do you 1592 01:29:03.840 --> 01:29:05.239 why are you laughing? Do you have a double standard 1593 01:29:05.319 --> 01:29:10.199 or not? Now, do you have a double standard or not? 1594 01:29:11.680 --> 01:29:16.199 Explain why it's not a double standard. You can't so 1595 01:29:16.359 --> 01:29:18.720 notice he can't answer this. Can you explain why it's 1596 01:29:18.720 --> 01:29:29.920 not a double standard. So it's all trolls today again, 1597 01:29:30.000 --> 01:29:31.800 which is which is fine. It's not all trills but 1598 01:29:32.239 --> 01:29:37.640 largely trills. So notice the double standard right now, nour 1599 01:29:38.720 --> 01:29:43.560 now uh as usual with Muslims. But by the way, 1600 01:29:43.600 --> 01:29:46.119 I reject out of hand that I listened to any 1601 01:29:46.359 --> 01:29:50.119 liberal scholar. And notice he doesn't listen to any liberal 1602 01:29:50.159 --> 01:29:59.640 scholar on the Quran. I'm not taking f A Hughes 1603 01:29:59.720 --> 01:30:05.479 acts on Yep. 1604 01:30:06.880 --> 01:30:09.000 Yeah, so not really an f A to you. 1605 01:30:09.199 --> 01:30:12.359 I'm I'm an ex senator contest, I'm mechanic human and 1606 01:30:12.439 --> 01:30:14.640 it's a bit more of an a deeper question. 1607 01:30:14.800 --> 01:30:18.600 So anyway, I was, I was a Scotist when I 1608 01:30:18.680 --> 01:30:21.079 was a senator contest. And there's a are you. 1609 01:30:21.079 --> 01:30:25.279 Familiar with the absolute primacy of Christ? That that's thesis 1610 01:30:25.399 --> 01:30:30.279 within all the what it's called the absolute. 1611 01:30:29.800 --> 01:30:30.760 Primacy of Christ. 1612 01:30:32.079 --> 01:30:32.880 I don't know what that mean. 1613 01:30:33.760 --> 01:30:34.800 Okay, it's basically the. 1614 01:30:35.319 --> 01:30:38.920 Theory that if Adam hadn't sent Christ would have become 1615 01:30:39.000 --> 01:30:40.199 incarnate anyways or that. 1616 01:30:40.520 --> 01:30:42.119 Yeah, that's the Eastern Father's teaching. 1617 01:30:43.640 --> 01:30:46.399 Okay, So is that Yeah, I've read that Maximus and 1618 01:30:46.439 --> 01:30:48.159 a few others. So does that have the status of 1619 01:30:48.279 --> 01:30:49.960 like your official teaching of the one. 1620 01:30:49.840 --> 01:30:52.680 That I was church is that at uh it's I mean, 1621 01:30:52.720 --> 01:30:54.760 there's no dogma. I'm not aware of a dogma to 1622 01:30:54.840 --> 01:30:57.159 states that it's just normative in the Orthodox Church to 1623 01:30:57.359 --> 01:31:01.039 understand Adam is as a Chris the logical being. 1624 01:31:02.199 --> 01:31:04.720 Sure. Okay, awesome, thank you, I answered my question. 1625 01:31:04.800 --> 01:31:07.840 Yeah, great question, And you are correct that is a 1626 01:31:08.000 --> 01:31:11.920 unique thing that the Franciscans had in contrast to the 1627 01:31:12.000 --> 01:31:15.960 tumus that agrees with us in the East. Jimmy, I'm 1628 01:31:16.000 --> 01:31:21.239 not answering faqes so yep. 1629 01:31:22.199 --> 01:31:25.880 Hey, So I'm a Meridia Cathick having trouble reconciling and 1630 01:31:26.079 --> 01:31:30.840 accepting the idea that our sacraments are that different. 1631 01:31:31.399 --> 01:31:33.479 And if you could just touch on that and you 1632 01:31:33.600 --> 01:31:35.520 a talking about each one individually. 1633 01:31:35.079 --> 01:31:37.720 But just in general, I don't know what you mean, 1634 01:31:37.800 --> 01:31:39.840 I mean different in what sense? 1635 01:31:41.199 --> 01:31:41.880 Well, I was just. 1636 01:31:42.119 --> 01:31:44.800 Reading online a little bit about the differences in the 1637 01:31:45.479 --> 01:31:48.800 two and that some sacraments are not accepted. 1638 01:31:48.920 --> 01:31:52.479 In the Catholic Church as well as the Orthodox. 1639 01:31:52.600 --> 01:31:54.319 If one were to go to the other one and 1640 01:31:54.840 --> 01:31:57.880 receive sacraments in those that they're not accepted. 1641 01:31:57.479 --> 01:31:58.079 In each other. 1642 01:31:59.159 --> 01:32:02.239 Sometimes, Yeah, it's a case by case basis. The local 1643 01:32:02.279 --> 01:32:05.720 bishop applies the canons based on your situation and what 1644 01:32:06.279 --> 01:32:07.399 what was your history? 1645 01:32:08.920 --> 01:32:12.840 Okay, so something like the Eucharist could not be I've 1646 01:32:12.880 --> 01:32:14.119 read that, like I would not be able to go 1647 01:32:14.159 --> 01:32:16.039 to an Orthodox church and take us. 1648 01:32:16.239 --> 01:32:18.920 No, you cannot. No, you have to abjure your heresies. 1649 01:32:20.199 --> 01:32:21.760 Okay, got it, all right? Thanks? 1650 01:32:22.000 --> 01:32:24.680 Yeah, No, I see I misunderstood the question. I see 1651 01:32:24.680 --> 01:32:27.880 what you're asking. Now, I got you. I was thinking 1652 01:32:27.920 --> 01:32:29.880 you mean in terms of vality. You're saying, like, could 1653 01:32:29.920 --> 01:32:31.800 I go and partake it? The second I see you 1654 01:32:31.880 --> 01:32:34.000 mean vertical? 1655 01:32:38.520 --> 01:32:38.800 You see. 1656 01:32:38.800 --> 01:32:40.680 I have calm them down. Now, I have my sugars, 1657 01:32:41.279 --> 01:32:44.600 have my beat us. I have my beat us. 1658 01:32:44.720 --> 01:32:52.560 Choose. Well, you must not forget the eleventh Commandment. There, Jay, 1659 01:32:53.039 --> 01:32:54.399 that'll shalt be nice. 1660 01:32:55.760 --> 01:32:56.920 I am being nice. What's up? 1661 01:32:56.960 --> 01:32:57.079 Man? 1662 01:32:58.079 --> 01:32:58.199 Uh? 1663 01:32:58.319 --> 01:33:01.720 So I have a I have a doctrinal question. 1664 01:33:02.000 --> 01:33:05.760 I'm a Protestant and one of the things that's a 1665 01:33:05.840 --> 01:33:08.960 hang up for me because as I've been researching into 1666 01:33:09.039 --> 01:33:12.960 Orthodoxy is preservation of the saints. 1667 01:33:13.000 --> 01:33:15.239 It's it's you know, as far as. 1668 01:33:15.119 --> 01:33:18.479 The other five points of Calvinism, I've kind of come 1669 01:33:18.560 --> 01:33:21.680 to reject but I think that Roman. 1670 01:33:21.560 --> 01:33:23.399 Do you mean perseverance of the saints. I don't know 1671 01:33:23.399 --> 01:33:24.000 what you're talking about. 1672 01:33:24.079 --> 01:33:28.439 Yeah, perseverance of the Saints. But I feel like Romans 1673 01:33:28.560 --> 01:33:35.079 eight thirty eight is like pretty solid and understanding that nothing. 1674 01:33:34.880 --> 01:33:36.039 Can separate us from God. 1675 01:33:36.680 --> 01:33:39.680 And I think the reason why Paul goes into such 1676 01:33:39.760 --> 01:33:44.520 great detail about describing all different things is to say, hey, well, 1677 01:33:44.720 --> 01:33:47.319 there's not a single thing that can separate us from God. 1678 01:33:47.399 --> 01:33:49.960 And one of my biggest hang ups with Orthodoxy is. 1679 01:33:50.640 --> 01:33:53.760 Is it doesn't There doesn't seem to be any assurance. 1680 01:33:55.079 --> 01:33:56.880 So I'd like to hear what you have to say 1681 01:33:56.880 --> 01:33:57.159 about it. 1682 01:33:57.159 --> 01:33:57.279 Well. 1683 01:33:57.359 --> 01:34:02.399 First, I mean, even if hypothetic I adopted some Calvinists position, 1684 01:34:02.640 --> 01:34:05.720 you're in no different individual existential position than I am. 1685 01:34:05.840 --> 01:34:08.760 Because Calvinists admit that there's such a thing as self deception, 1686 01:34:09.279 --> 01:34:11.199 where you could believe that you're want to be elect 1687 01:34:11.479 --> 01:34:13.760 and believe that the Holy Spirit has given you the assurance, 1688 01:34:13.800 --> 01:34:16.399 and you might be deluding yourself. So really, there's not 1689 01:34:16.840 --> 01:34:20.359 actually this assurance. There's a theoretical doctrine of assurance, that 1690 01:34:20.399 --> 01:34:22.479 doesn't mean that you have it as an individual Calvinist. 1691 01:34:22.880 --> 01:34:25.279 If you believe in self deception. So that's one point. 1692 01:34:25.680 --> 01:34:28.680 Second point I would say is that the statements about 1693 01:34:29.159 --> 01:34:31.319 what Paul says in Roman's aid have to be balanced 1694 01:34:31.359 --> 01:34:33.439 with everything else he says in many of the other places, 1695 01:34:33.520 --> 01:34:35.840 And so in Hebrews he says that you can particular 1696 01:34:35.840 --> 01:34:38.319 the heavenly gift and be enlightened and so forth and 1697 01:34:38.800 --> 01:34:41.119 fall away. So why would there be all these warnings 1698 01:34:41.159 --> 01:34:44.439 of apostasy if there is no such thing as apostacy. 1699 01:34:45.680 --> 01:34:51.880 Well, I'm not saying that aposesey isn't a possibility. 1700 01:34:51.920 --> 01:34:55.960 I'm saying that someone who is truly a yeah. 1701 01:34:56.000 --> 01:34:57.600 But it begs the question. I know I've heard this 1702 01:34:57.640 --> 01:34:59.079 a million times, So how do you know that you're 1703 01:34:59.159 --> 01:35:00.119 the truly, the truly. 1704 01:35:01.479 --> 01:35:04.399 I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that anyone can 1705 01:35:04.479 --> 01:35:06.920 know without a shadow of a doubt. I'm not. 1706 01:35:07.199 --> 01:35:09.399 Well, then it's then it's not assurance. Then it's not 1707 01:35:09.800 --> 01:35:12.520 once saved always said, not assurance. Okay, So anyway, I 1708 01:35:12.600 --> 01:35:14.279 appreciate the question. I'm not going to go for an 1709 01:35:14.279 --> 01:35:16.000 hour back and forth on that. If you if you 1710 01:35:16.239 --> 01:35:20.600 don't find the text about apost to seek convincing, then okay. 1711 01:35:21.359 --> 01:35:21.479 Uh. 1712 01:35:21.680 --> 01:35:36.880 Next up, cool video I'm mute. By the way, if 1713 01:35:36.880 --> 01:35:38.079 you want to support the stream, you can do so 1714 01:35:38.239 --> 01:35:40.640 via super chats. You can also support stream via my 1715 01:35:40.720 --> 01:35:45.560 bitcoin wallet right there. Bitcoin is a free speech based 1716 01:35:45.680 --> 01:35:51.119 mechanism of true currency, true money, authentic ethical money, based 1717 01:35:51.199 --> 01:35:56.800 on math, and based on an international decentralized network. That's 1718 01:35:56.920 --> 01:36:02.960 my wallet, all right. He can't connect, come out, come 1719 01:36:03.000 --> 01:36:05.479 back in if you want to, Please do not come 1720 01:36:05.520 --> 01:36:08.199 on and ask me FAQ questions. If you want to debate, 1721 01:36:08.359 --> 01:36:20.199 I give you the premiacy of place, Rick, Rick, you 1722 01:36:20.279 --> 01:36:22.319 got to get a good connection if you want to 1723 01:36:22.359 --> 01:36:36.000 come on, you don't have to keep raising your hand. Rick, 1724 01:36:36.239 --> 01:36:42.680 I don't know what's up, man, you won't connect. Look, 1725 01:36:43.079 --> 01:36:46.600 if you're an inquirer, if you're a Catechuman, please just 1726 01:36:48.119 --> 01:36:51.199 we do this every day. You don't have to. Is 1727 01:36:51.199 --> 01:36:53.600 there people lazy? Like can you not go ask your 1728 01:36:53.640 --> 01:36:56.439 priest or read the Pomeazansky book? Like you don't have 1729 01:36:56.560 --> 01:37:07.920 to ask me every FAQ catechumen question? Guys, yeah, tech, do. 1730 01:37:08.039 --> 01:37:08.399 You hear me? 1731 01:37:08.760 --> 01:37:08.960 Yeah? 1732 01:37:10.760 --> 01:37:14.640 So right now, I'm thinking of converting either to Catalysism 1733 01:37:15.319 --> 01:37:22.680 or Orthodoxy. But I don't understand how the papacy doesn't work. 1734 01:37:22.720 --> 01:37:28.000 I think having the unity that they have is is 1735 01:37:28.119 --> 01:37:30.359 good like unit? 1736 01:37:30.439 --> 01:37:32.960 What unity do you think they have? I mean, again, 1737 01:37:33.279 --> 01:37:35.279 you're not familiar with the world of Catholicism if you 1738 01:37:35.319 --> 01:37:36.000 think it's united. 1739 01:37:37.319 --> 01:37:41.159 But the Orthodox don't share the same belings about who 1740 01:37:41.279 --> 01:37:46.239 can be rebaptized, contraception look average. 1741 01:37:46.600 --> 01:37:51.119 But the fact that there's debate and the like discussion 1742 01:37:51.319 --> 01:37:55.880 over issues does not mean that there's no unity. Right. 1743 01:37:56.239 --> 01:37:58.439 What I'm pointing out is that what you're looking for 1744 01:37:58.640 --> 01:38:01.720 doesn't exist. There is no unity like you think in Rome. 1745 01:38:02.199 --> 01:38:04.159 And by the way, even if you think there is, 1746 01:38:04.279 --> 01:38:06.199 even if there was a superficial unity, if it's not 1747 01:38:06.239 --> 01:38:07.520 based on truth, it doesn't matter. 1748 01:38:09.920 --> 01:38:11.119 Uh Yeah. 1749 01:38:11.199 --> 01:38:17.319 But aschism between the Moscow and Constantinople. 1750 01:38:18.079 --> 01:38:20.800 Yeah, but there's a gigantic schism within the Roman Gallic Church. 1751 01:38:20.840 --> 01:38:21.640 So what are you talking about? 1752 01:38:22.760 --> 01:38:26.000 Yea, if I'm joining the Russian Church, is it like 1753 01:38:26.159 --> 01:38:28.640 a separate one or is it the same? 1754 01:38:29.079 --> 01:38:30.159 Because no, they are. 1755 01:38:30.319 --> 01:38:34.119 They are out of communion in terms of not reading 1756 01:38:34.159 --> 01:38:36.159 each other. In the Diptychs, the church has not yet 1757 01:38:36.239 --> 01:38:39.479 excommunicated each other, so that is not officially a schism yet. 1758 01:38:40.479 --> 01:38:43.880 All right, But you're not gonna get you're not gonna 1759 01:38:43.960 --> 01:38:46.399 get away from that in Rome, because you're gonna go 1760 01:38:46.479 --> 01:38:49.399 into Rome thinking that as greener pastures, and then you're 1761 01:38:49.439 --> 01:38:51.920 gonna learn about all the problems and contradictions between pre 1762 01:38:52.000 --> 01:38:54.840 Vatican one, a, pre Vatican two and postmatical three teaching, 1763 01:38:55.039 --> 01:38:56.640 and then you're gonna be confronted with whether you need 1764 01:38:56.680 --> 01:38:58.239 to be a trat or not. You're gonna realize that 1765 01:38:58.319 --> 01:38:59.319 you made the wrong decision. 1766 01:39:01.159 --> 01:39:01.520 All right. 1767 01:39:02.399 --> 01:39:05.680 Yesterday I talked you to a Catholic priest and I 1768 01:39:05.760 --> 01:39:09.279 told him that I didn't really like the crin pope, 1769 01:39:09.319 --> 01:39:12.640 and he told me that he sees the pope like 1770 01:39:13.439 --> 01:39:14.079 as a father. 1771 01:39:14.840 --> 01:39:17.159 Even if he does something wrong, you still need to 1772 01:39:17.800 --> 01:39:18.560 respect to him. 1773 01:39:18.640 --> 01:39:21.199 Okay, but that has nothing to do with Roman Catholic 1774 01:39:21.319 --> 01:39:25.840 dogmatic teaching. Okay, the pope cannot teach new dogmas or 1775 01:39:25.960 --> 01:39:29.239 change the dogmas and he has that's the point. So again, 1776 01:39:29.520 --> 01:39:31.720 you're coming at this with a very naive, simple I'm 1777 01:39:31.720 --> 01:39:33.520 not dissing you, but I'm saying it's a very naive 1778 01:39:33.640 --> 01:39:36.119 kind of simple view, like it's going to work this way. Well, 1779 01:39:36.159 --> 01:39:37.600 I get to see him as a father, and then 1780 01:39:37.600 --> 01:39:39.960 we'll get a new trad pope in the future. None 1781 01:39:40.000 --> 01:39:43.319 of that is even close to what happened to Vatican two. 1782 01:39:43.840 --> 01:39:46.119 And when you have the pope going and praying in mosque, 1783 01:39:46.159 --> 01:39:48.600 and by the way, it's not just Francis, it's trad 1784 01:39:48.680 --> 01:39:51.720 Pope Benedict praying mosque towards Mecca. So do you not 1785 01:39:51.880 --> 01:39:55.359 see that as like a major violation of basic Christian teaching? 1786 01:39:56.520 --> 01:39:56.720 Yes? 1787 01:39:56.880 --> 01:39:58.640 I say that because so why would you want to 1788 01:39:58.720 --> 01:40:01.119 join that you're joining in? You understand, you don't get 1789 01:40:01.199 --> 01:40:04.239 to join Catholicism and not be in spiritual communion with 1790 01:40:04.399 --> 01:40:07.439 Francis and his crew. Like there's no other there's not 1791 01:40:07.560 --> 01:40:11.279 like a Catholicism that's not connected to that. You're spiritually 1792 01:40:11.399 --> 01:40:13.279 in communion with the Bishop of Rome. 1793 01:40:14.720 --> 01:40:18.640 Yeah, but he didn't bind the church to worship and the. 1794 01:40:18.800 --> 01:40:23.439 Mosques, right, No, that's not true. So this is all 1795 01:40:23.520 --> 01:40:26.119 the propaganda that you've been told by Roman Catholics that 1796 01:40:26.159 --> 01:40:27.479 you don't have to believe this stuff. Have you read 1797 01:40:27.560 --> 01:40:28.079 Vatican two? 1798 01:40:29.920 --> 01:40:30.199 Okay? 1799 01:40:30.479 --> 01:40:33.000 Well, Vatican two says that you are bound to believe 1800 01:40:33.039 --> 01:40:36.840 that Muslims and Catholics worshiped together the same God and 1801 01:40:36.880 --> 01:40:39.159 have the faith of Abraham. Do you think that's that's correct? 1802 01:40:41.960 --> 01:40:46.520 I think not trially you, But I think it's meant 1803 01:40:46.800 --> 01:40:52.079 it's Kulman that it's more a way to evangelize the 1804 01:40:52.159 --> 01:40:52.760 other faiths. 1805 01:40:53.840 --> 01:40:56.159 Do you think he's not evangelizing when he goes in 1806 01:40:56.239 --> 01:40:58.479 praise and moss towards Mecca and builds an Abrahamic faith 1807 01:40:58.479 --> 01:41:00.760 center and tells people not to prossly How is he 1808 01:41:00.800 --> 01:41:02.800 evangelizing when he says not to proselytize? 1809 01:41:05.119 --> 01:41:08.199 But did he make did he make a dougma or is. 1810 01:41:08.199 --> 01:41:11.920 It just he's expressing that this is what Vatican two 1811 01:41:12.039 --> 01:41:14.680 tells you to do. Vatican two is telling you that 1812 01:41:14.920 --> 01:41:17.359 they have the same God, they have the faith of Abraham, 1813 01:41:17.960 --> 01:41:19.960 So why do we need to evangelize them? And by 1814 01:41:20.000 --> 01:41:22.920 the way, you can't. You can't, the pope can't. You 1815 01:41:23.039 --> 01:41:25.880 can't act contrary to the dogmas. If you're a pope, 1816 01:41:26.399 --> 01:41:29.079 that's also an action of apostasy to go and pray 1817 01:41:29.119 --> 01:41:31.800 and moss towards Mecca. So you're trying to say, oh, 1818 01:41:31.840 --> 01:41:34.800 he's trying to evangelize him. No, no he's not. They 1819 01:41:34.880 --> 01:41:37.880 used to call crusades against these people now, but they're 1820 01:41:37.880 --> 01:41:40.479 evangelizing them a praying most wars Mecca. That's that's an 1821 01:41:40.520 --> 01:41:43.319 action of apostacy. It violates the ancient cannons that say 1822 01:41:43.359 --> 01:41:44.479 you can't even go in mosques. 1823 01:41:45.880 --> 01:41:49.279 So you're saying that if the pope is a heretic 1824 01:41:49.640 --> 01:41:52.760 or he commits sins, that he's the whole system. 1825 01:41:53.439 --> 01:41:56.960 Roman Catholic theology does not say that the pope doesn't sin, 1826 01:41:57.279 --> 01:41:59.920 but it says that he can't commit actions of apostas 1827 01:42:00.359 --> 01:42:03.680 like that, because then Rome would defect. Rome cannot defect 1828 01:42:03.680 --> 01:42:07.119 in Romancalatic theology. You defect from the faith by actions 1829 01:42:07.159 --> 01:42:09.520 of apostasy, and you're gonna learn if you become a Catholic, 1830 01:42:09.560 --> 01:42:12.039 and you're gonna make a huge mistake that Romancalaic theology 1831 01:42:12.119 --> 01:42:15.000 has certain sins that automatically excommunicate you. One of those 1832 01:42:15.079 --> 01:42:18.960 is abration. Another one of those is to participate in 1833 01:42:19.119 --> 01:42:22.039 this type of worship with things like Muslims or Pagans. 1834 01:42:22.279 --> 01:42:25.600 To do those things in those rituals is an action 1835 01:42:25.760 --> 01:42:29.479 of apostasies to surrender the faith. That's why as late 1836 01:42:29.600 --> 01:42:32.800 as nineteen twenty eight and Mortalium Animos, the papacy was 1837 01:42:32.840 --> 01:42:35.279 still teaching that it is apostasy to do these things. 1838 01:42:35.880 --> 01:42:38.960 Go read Mortalium Animos then read lemon Gentum sixteen and 1839 01:42:39.000 --> 01:42:42.359 then Nostra Atate. So you're just falling for all of 1840 01:42:42.399 --> 01:42:45.239 their sales pitch, and you're missing the major point here, 1841 01:42:45.279 --> 01:42:48.119 which is that this is clearly not the same church 1842 01:42:48.359 --> 01:42:49.720 that called for crusades. 1843 01:42:54.159 --> 01:42:56.039 That's true, another Christian but on the same topic. 1844 01:42:57.319 --> 01:43:00.159 Yeah, so. 1845 01:43:05.640 --> 01:43:06.600 So Abbot. 1846 01:43:07.920 --> 01:43:11.960 The first centuries, the priests told me that there was 1847 01:43:12.079 --> 01:43:16.960 only three sees and that Constantinople was ather later, and 1848 01:43:17.359 --> 01:43:19.359 that's why we have the patriarchate. 1849 01:43:19.479 --> 01:43:22.359 So it's not bublic, but it's not a tradition to 1850 01:43:22.439 --> 01:43:24.159 have the pentarchy. 1851 01:43:24.680 --> 01:43:27.800 Like, no, that's that's stupid, that's stupid according to his 1852 01:43:27.880 --> 01:43:30.159 own tradition, because Pope saying, Gregory the Great refers to 1853 01:43:30.199 --> 01:43:36.439 the pentarchy. So no nobody believes the pentarchy is from 1854 01:43:36.479 --> 01:43:40.119 the apostles. But in the ecumenical councils, the church eventually 1855 01:43:40.159 --> 01:43:43.399 accepts the pentarchy, even the Western Church, and Gregory the 1856 01:43:43.439 --> 01:43:45.720 Great talks about it. In fact, Gregory the Great says, 1857 01:43:45.760 --> 01:43:49.800 the see of Peter is Rome, Alexandria and Antioch. You 1858 01:43:49.880 --> 01:43:52.399 can go read the Alexandria. Look before you make this 1859 01:43:52.520 --> 01:43:55.159 dumb decision, go read the Alexandria document. And the Chi 1860 01:43:55.199 --> 01:43:58.000 eighty document, and you're going to realize that today's Roman 1861 01:43:58.039 --> 01:43:59.920 Catholic Church is not the church in the Middle Ages. 1862 01:44:00.239 --> 01:44:03.359 It's not the Latin papal church anymore. It's the acumenous 1863 01:44:03.479 --> 01:44:06.800 world church that believes anything and everything. And the Alexandria 1864 01:44:06.880 --> 01:44:09.000 Document and the Ciady document will prove that to you. 1865 01:44:14.560 --> 01:44:41.760 I'm looking for people who disagree, Lauren, you have to immune. 1866 01:44:45.319 --> 01:44:46.039 Can you hear me? Now? 1867 01:44:46.520 --> 01:44:46.720 Yeah? 1868 01:44:49.760 --> 01:44:54.600 How does the Orthodox Church rectify the seventh anathema from 1869 01:44:54.640 --> 01:44:58.319 emphasis one on the christology. 1870 01:44:57.720 --> 01:45:03.199 Of Christ having two wills? H uh huh? 1871 01:45:03.439 --> 01:45:05.479 So are you not familiar with any of our responses 1872 01:45:05.520 --> 01:45:06.880 to this stuff? You think that we don't know what 1873 01:45:06.960 --> 01:45:07.640 episode says? 1874 01:45:09.479 --> 01:45:12.039 No, I I this is my first time asking a question. 1875 01:45:12.680 --> 01:45:14.680 I'm looking into or than. 1876 01:45:25.239 --> 01:45:36.239 H Are you there? Hello? 1877 01:45:36.960 --> 01:45:38.279 Do you have a Hello? 1878 01:45:41.000 --> 01:45:44.199 What's an anthematic? Did you say you're cutting out? 1879 01:45:45.600 --> 01:46:03.000 I'm sorry, I'm driving the seventh anathemoeah. 1880 01:45:57.279 --> 01:46:06.520 Yeah, mm hmm. It's the one specifically teaching on No. 1881 01:46:06.680 --> 01:46:09.159 Two wills after the Where does this say? 1882 01:46:09.239 --> 01:46:10.840 No, I mean I'm looking at it. I don't say 1883 01:46:10.840 --> 01:46:12.600 anything about no. Two wills? What are you talking about? 1884 01:46:14.920 --> 01:46:17.000 Well? I mean they have to be united wills, right, 1885 01:46:18.079 --> 01:46:19.279 I mean I may be mistaken. 1886 01:46:20.119 --> 01:46:23.119 If anyone shall say that Jesus as man is only 1887 01:46:23.319 --> 01:46:26.000 energized by the word of God, this would be one 1888 01:46:26.600 --> 01:46:29.680 this would be one energy or one will, let him 1889 01:46:29.680 --> 01:46:30.199 be anathema? 1890 01:46:36.840 --> 01:46:37.279 Are you there? 1891 01:46:38.000 --> 01:46:40.720 I don't understand how this been the case. What you're 1892 01:46:40.720 --> 01:46:43.319 talking about? What do you think our position is? 1893 01:46:45.560 --> 01:46:48.279 Well? I believe that the position is two wills right 1894 01:46:48.840 --> 01:46:49.279 in Christ? 1895 01:46:49.960 --> 01:46:52.880 Okay, I'm looking at the seventh I'm looking at the 1896 01:46:52.920 --> 01:46:55.439 seventh Anathema, and it says, if anyone shall say that 1897 01:46:55.560 --> 01:46:58.479 Jesus as man is only energized by the word of 1898 01:46:58.560 --> 01:47:00.600 God and that the glory of the only begotten Son, 1899 01:47:00.600 --> 01:47:02.560 who is attributed to him as something not properly his, 1900 01:47:02.840 --> 01:47:05.479 let him be anathema. I mean, so it's saying in 1901 01:47:05.760 --> 01:47:09.880 the story and position, Yeah. 1902 01:47:10.159 --> 01:47:12.119 He's claiming that Christ has two wills. 1903 01:47:13.399 --> 01:47:15.279 No, that's not the story. That's not when the stories 1904 01:47:15.359 --> 01:47:19.680 is arguing the Storias has a dual subject Christology. This 1905 01:47:19.840 --> 01:47:21.640 is not saying there's only one will, and that is 1906 01:47:21.680 --> 01:47:23.439 not saying there's only one will. Where does it say that? 1907 01:47:25.399 --> 01:47:27.760 He doesn't specifically say that. I was just kind of 1908 01:47:27.840 --> 01:47:30.199 assuming that's what he meant by saying that the word 1909 01:47:30.279 --> 01:47:31.760 doesn't energize the human. 1910 01:47:33.159 --> 01:47:34.800 Wait say that again? The word? 1911 01:47:34.880 --> 01:47:39.319 What that the word doesn't energize the the the flesh, 1912 01:47:39.479 --> 01:47:39.960 the human. 1913 01:47:41.199 --> 01:47:43.159 No, it says, if anyone s else, say that Jesus 1914 01:47:43.239 --> 01:47:46.680 man is only energized by the Word of God, so 1915 01:47:46.800 --> 01:47:54.319 that would be one energy. And then it says, and 1916 01:47:54.399 --> 01:47:57.119 then to say that the glory is attributed to him 1917 01:47:57.119 --> 01:48:00.000 as not something properly his, in other words, one subject. 1918 01:48:00.840 --> 01:48:03.159 There's only one subject in Christ, the Son of God, 1919 01:48:03.840 --> 01:48:06.119 the Word of God. But this does not say that 1920 01:48:06.199 --> 01:48:08.239 he has only This is saying that you cannot say 1921 01:48:08.239 --> 01:48:09.560 there's only one divine energy. 1922 01:48:13.479 --> 01:48:15.079 Okay, thank you. 1923 01:48:16.600 --> 01:48:18.000 Yeah, I'm sorry. It's just really hard to hear what 1924 01:48:18.079 --> 01:48:24.079 you're saying because of the background noise. But yeah, I mean, 1925 01:48:24.159 --> 01:48:27.479 Nestorius doesn't. It's the debate with the Storius is not 1926 01:48:27.600 --> 01:48:30.439 over two wills or two natures. The debate with the 1927 01:48:30.560 --> 01:48:38.239 Sorius is dual subject christology. Dave, what's up? 1928 01:48:38.319 --> 01:48:38.439 Name? 1929 01:48:50.000 --> 01:48:50.119 Uh? 1930 01:48:50.960 --> 01:48:55.560 Dave? Right there? You gotta amute? 1931 01:48:59.680 --> 01:49:05.560 Yeah, automatically you too, I know. So. So I'm the 1932 01:49:05.600 --> 01:49:08.119 Mormon on the channel and slid clicks. 1933 01:49:08.119 --> 01:49:11.680 So my claim is that you know Book Mormon's true 1934 01:49:11.720 --> 01:49:13.199 than or the doxy. 1935 01:49:12.920 --> 01:49:15.479 Has kind of a problem, Well, how could the Book 1936 01:49:15.479 --> 01:49:17.640 of Mormon be true when it's just like Islam when 1937 01:49:17.680 --> 01:49:20.560 it says that the prior revelation is all corrupted unless 1938 01:49:20.600 --> 01:49:21.640 it agrees with the Book of Mormon. 1939 01:49:22.359 --> 01:49:24.520 I think that's a common tact that people use. We 1940 01:49:24.560 --> 01:49:26.920 don't say the prior revelation. 1941 01:49:26.640 --> 01:49:29.319 Is all corrupted every moment. Every Mormon I've ever talked to, 1942 01:49:29.680 --> 01:49:31.880 many many of the missionaries say that the Bible's. 1943 01:49:32.680 --> 01:49:34.720 I think you would agree that that part of the 1944 01:49:34.800 --> 01:49:37.399 Bible is not exactly as it was when it came. 1945 01:49:37.319 --> 01:49:40.039 Out, and now it is corrupted. You said, it's that's 1946 01:49:40.079 --> 01:49:41.600 not it. That's not a thing you do, But now 1947 01:49:41.600 --> 01:49:42.119 you're saying it is. 1948 01:49:42.239 --> 01:49:45.720 I said, it's not entirely corrupted like the Bible. 1949 01:49:46.039 --> 01:49:48.199 Okay, what's your criteria for knowing when it's not and 1950 01:49:48.279 --> 01:49:48.680 what it is? 1951 01:49:50.520 --> 01:49:53.239 Joseph Smith made translations or corrections to it. 1952 01:49:53.520 --> 01:49:58.000 That's so exactly what I said, just like the Muslims, 1953 01:49:58.239 --> 01:50:00.960 winter degrees with winter degrees when it agrees with the 1954 01:50:01.000 --> 01:50:02.039 Book of Mormon is correct. 1955 01:50:03.359 --> 01:50:05.199 You if you actually looked at the details, there are 1956 01:50:05.279 --> 01:50:06.159 like five of them. 1957 01:50:06.039 --> 01:50:09.680 That are doesn't matter. So again, because the whole point 1958 01:50:09.760 --> 01:50:12.520 is that that thing's correct, matter because that thing's corrupted. 1959 01:50:12.640 --> 01:50:15.479 And now, so basically you lied because the very thing 1960 01:50:15.520 --> 01:50:16.319 I said is what you did. 1961 01:50:16.800 --> 01:50:17.479 Yeah, I'm just. 1962 01:50:17.479 --> 01:50:19.359 Saying if you look those if you look at a 1963 01:50:19.359 --> 01:50:20.560 specific instance. 1964 01:50:20.319 --> 01:50:21.239 You would see you lied. 1965 01:50:22.720 --> 01:50:23.199 Yeah. Whatever. 1966 01:50:24.039 --> 01:50:27.920 Okay, So thanks for admitting you lie. Okay, how's you sure? 1967 01:50:27.920 --> 01:50:29.640 I'm sure that's a fun debate tactic for you. 1968 01:50:29.840 --> 01:50:31.600 It's not a debate tactic. You said that you don't 1969 01:50:31.640 --> 01:50:32.880 make that argument, and then you did. 1970 01:50:34.239 --> 01:50:35.960 I don't make the argument that I said. No, I 1971 01:50:36.000 --> 01:50:37.800 didn't make the argument that it's completely corrupted. 1972 01:50:37.960 --> 01:50:38.439 Don't make my. 1973 01:50:38.520 --> 01:50:40.880 Word now you're playing word games because the point I 1974 01:50:41.039 --> 01:50:43.159 ask you, I know, I'm not. I asked you what. 1975 01:50:43.439 --> 01:50:45.800 I asked you what I asked you what the criteria is, 1976 01:50:45.880 --> 01:50:48.319 and you said, Joseph Smith, that's the whole argument, that's 1977 01:50:48.359 --> 01:50:51.159 the argument. Yeah, the criteria for So you have a 1978 01:50:51.239 --> 01:50:53.479 circular argument. Why would I follow a circular argument. 1979 01:50:54.000 --> 01:50:57.279 No, the claim I made your playing word game. 1980 01:50:57.640 --> 01:50:59.560 It's not a word game. It's a circular argument. 1981 01:51:00.680 --> 01:51:02.560 No, the claim I made had nothing to do with 1982 01:51:02.640 --> 01:51:04.640 the changes in the Bible. The claim I made said, 1983 01:51:04.640 --> 01:51:07.239 if the Book of Mormon is true, the Orthodoxy has 1984 01:51:07.279 --> 01:51:07.680 a problem. 1985 01:51:08.159 --> 01:51:10.279 And I responded by saying that you have the same 1986 01:51:10.399 --> 01:51:13.039 argument as the as the Muslims, and you basically you 1987 01:51:13.119 --> 01:51:16.920 have made argument. Yes it is. I I've debated all 1988 01:51:16.960 --> 01:51:17.960 the top Muslims in the world. 1989 01:51:18.000 --> 01:51:26.520 What do you mean, Yeah, so the Bible's wrong? Like 1990 01:51:26.600 --> 01:51:27.520 a Muslim doesn't. 1991 01:51:27.279 --> 01:51:30.039 Say that, yes they do. What are you talking about? 1992 01:51:30.119 --> 01:51:31.279 I have way more. 1993 01:51:31.720 --> 01:51:33.479 Muslim argue the Book Mormon is true. That's the stupides 1994 01:51:33.479 --> 01:51:34.039 thing I've ever heard. 1995 01:51:34.079 --> 01:51:34.279 Dude. 1996 01:51:34.479 --> 01:51:36.600 Obviously I didn't say that. Are you this dumb? 1997 01:51:37.279 --> 01:51:39.039 No, I'm not just dumb. I'm just you're playing sure 1998 01:51:39.159 --> 01:51:41.159 literally to do the same thing, right. 1999 01:51:41.600 --> 01:51:43.920 No, I said, you have the same argument as the 2000 01:51:44.199 --> 01:51:50.279 Muslims to say that the prior revelation. Listen the prior Dude, 2001 01:51:50.359 --> 01:51:52.600 you literally came on and said the very thing I 2002 01:51:52.680 --> 01:51:54.279 said you would say. And then you said, you're not 2003 01:51:54.399 --> 01:51:55.720 saying it. This is retarded. 2004 01:51:55.840 --> 01:51:58.680 Muslims would say like the Bible is no. 2005 01:51:58.760 --> 01:52:01.000 They don't even know that out. That's not what they say. 2006 01:52:02.079 --> 01:52:05.439 The Bible is right. 2007 01:52:07.119 --> 01:52:09.399 What's your criteria? And I said, what's the criteria for 2008 01:52:09.479 --> 01:52:11.319 when you know that? And you said, Joseph Smith, that's 2009 01:52:11.319 --> 01:52:16.079 a circle. Yeah, Joseph Smith, that's a circle like you 2010 01:52:16.159 --> 01:52:18.319 can take, you can take, you can That is a 2011 01:52:18.399 --> 01:52:19.479 circular argument. 2012 01:52:21.760 --> 01:52:23.640 It has nothing to do with the original argument, though. 2013 01:52:23.680 --> 01:52:24.960 I mean, that's this you're you're. 2014 01:52:24.920 --> 01:52:27.399 You're this slow. Can you restate what my argument. 2015 01:52:27.239 --> 01:52:28.920 Is you're saying? 2016 01:52:29.039 --> 01:52:29.840 Can you say. 2017 01:52:31.479 --> 01:52:33.560 You were saying because I'm saying the Book of Mormon 2018 01:52:33.680 --> 01:52:35.920 is true, that's somehow equated to what Muslims are arguing. 2019 01:52:36.159 --> 01:52:39.199 No, you're too stupid to even understand the comparison. That 2020 01:52:39.359 --> 01:52:40.159 is not what I said. 2021 01:52:41.520 --> 01:52:43.359 Good, I'm not I'm not conflating the two. 2022 01:52:45.359 --> 01:52:47.720 You don't even understand my argument, do you? 2023 01:52:48.720 --> 01:52:49.800 Okay? Restated again? 2024 01:52:50.119 --> 01:52:52.880 So just like Muslims, I'm not saying you have the 2025 01:52:53.000 --> 01:52:56.600 same argument that Muslims have that about the Quran and 2026 01:52:56.720 --> 01:52:59.319 the Book of Mormon. Muslims don't care about the Book 2027 01:52:59.319 --> 01:53:01.880 of Mormon. I'm saying you have the same argument that 2028 01:53:02.039 --> 01:53:04.880 the principle that you used to know is the thing 2029 01:53:04.960 --> 01:53:07.079 in question for Muslims, it's the Quran. 2030 01:53:07.399 --> 01:53:11.159 Let me finish, use I don't use the bookrue. 2031 01:53:11.239 --> 01:53:14.079 You literally just did you said when Joseph Smith translated, 2032 01:53:14.159 --> 01:53:17.039 he fixed the errors. You said your criteria is Joseph Smith. 2033 01:53:17.119 --> 01:53:18.239 That's a circular argument. 2034 01:53:18.960 --> 01:53:23.079 I use no, yes, to know which part of the 2035 01:53:23.119 --> 01:53:25.800 Bible is true, I use several factors, not. 2036 01:53:25.840 --> 01:53:28.920 Just now you said Joseph Smith. So now it's changed. 2037 01:53:29.720 --> 01:53:32.000 No, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't say only Joseph Smith. 2038 01:53:32.319 --> 01:53:34.560 Don't don't try and again, this is so. 2039 01:53:34.760 --> 01:53:37.159 In other words, it doesn't. So it's not so the 2040 01:53:37.279 --> 01:53:39.760 position is a circle. So how is it not a circle? 2041 01:53:41.880 --> 01:53:43.439 How do you know the Bible is true? Right? We 2042 01:53:43.880 --> 01:53:45.920 read the Bible, we ask God, and God tells us 2043 01:53:45.960 --> 01:53:48.079 the Bible is true. That's how everybody knows. 2044 01:53:48.319 --> 01:53:50.920 No, that's a stupid argument. That's as dumb as saying 2045 01:53:51.000 --> 01:53:53.640 that I feel good today, So God's telling me that 2046 01:53:53.720 --> 01:53:54.880 I'm good because I feel. 2047 01:53:55.880 --> 01:53:58.159 If you want to go with the group of Christians 2048 01:53:58.199 --> 01:54:00.119 that don't use that argument, they would say it's. 2049 01:54:00.119 --> 01:54:03.560 Because that's what your cult does. Your cult says that 2050 01:54:03.680 --> 01:54:05.319 pray and you'll still have a burning in your bosom 2051 01:54:05.319 --> 01:54:07.840 and you'll know that's God. That's a subjective to your version. 2052 01:54:07.920 --> 01:54:10.600 Then let's go into your version. Your version is, Hey, 2053 01:54:11.119 --> 01:54:12.319 I read the. 2054 01:54:12.359 --> 01:54:14.960 Witness statements, and because so many of the match therefore 2055 01:54:15.000 --> 01:54:15.600 the Bible's truth. 2056 01:54:15.800 --> 01:54:19.239 Did you hear me give an evidentialist historicist argument? I 2057 01:54:19.279 --> 01:54:20.079 didn't give that argument. 2058 01:54:21.159 --> 01:54:23.079 What is your what is your claim? 2059 01:54:23.079 --> 01:54:23.199 Then? 2060 01:54:23.199 --> 01:54:24.199 How do you know the Bible's true? 2061 01:54:24.279 --> 01:54:25.279 The transcendental argument? 2062 01:54:26.079 --> 01:54:27.520 What does that mean? I have never heard that. 2063 01:54:27.960 --> 01:54:31.920 Without God's existence, specifically the trinitarian God of the Bible, 2064 01:54:32.279 --> 01:54:34.199 I couldn't have a basis for knowledge at all. So 2065 01:54:34.319 --> 01:54:37.760 all knowledge ultimately derives from my revealed worldview. 2066 01:54:40.119 --> 01:54:41.159 And that's not circular. 2067 01:54:42.119 --> 01:54:45.680 Well, it's recursive because all positions are ultimately recursive. 2068 01:54:47.319 --> 01:54:50.640 Right, But how does that not say anybody with worldview 2069 01:54:50.840 --> 01:54:52.600 has an access to that same claim. 2070 01:54:52.640 --> 01:54:55.119 I have a worldview and reason of logic as well. 2071 01:54:55.760 --> 01:54:57.560 Yeah, but your position won't be able to give a 2072 01:54:57.640 --> 01:55:01.159 basis for reasoning and logic. It might use reason free will, I. 2073 01:55:01.199 --> 01:55:06.159 Mean, we could go down that rabbit hole. Okay, So 2074 01:55:06.880 --> 01:55:08.199 we believe that we have free will? 2075 01:55:09.520 --> 01:55:09.840 Okay? 2076 01:55:10.199 --> 01:55:11.760 So what how is that? 2077 01:55:12.159 --> 01:55:13.079 That's not a justification? 2078 01:55:14.000 --> 01:55:17.920 That's a justification for a non material world. No, it's not. 2079 01:55:18.199 --> 01:55:19.039 That's just an assertion. 2080 01:55:19.399 --> 01:55:20.079 How is that? Do you know? 2081 01:55:20.239 --> 01:55:21.840 The difference be with an assertion and justification? 2082 01:55:24.880 --> 01:55:29.600 What? Yes, I'm asserting it. The justification you can't claim 2083 01:55:29.960 --> 01:55:31.880 you know. I guess you would say the justification is 2084 01:55:31.880 --> 01:55:32.920 I think therefore I am. 2085 01:55:33.840 --> 01:55:36.319 Okay, So now Descartes is the basis for your world view. 2086 01:55:37.840 --> 01:55:39.119 How do you know you exist? 2087 01:55:40.399 --> 01:55:42.720 How do I know I exist? Well, again, I believe 2088 01:55:42.840 --> 01:55:45.960 in the Christian worldview, which is my justification for why 2089 01:55:46.079 --> 01:55:49.359 there's particularity, why there's universals, why there's logic, whether there's 2090 01:55:49.359 --> 01:55:50.079 an external world. 2091 01:55:50.800 --> 01:55:51.600 Ditto same here. 2092 01:55:52.079 --> 01:55:54.520 But you don't have a Christian worldview. You're not a Christian, 2093 01:55:54.560 --> 01:55:54.800 you're a. 2094 01:55:54.800 --> 01:55:56.800 Cult Well, yeah, whatever you want to call me. I 2095 01:55:56.920 --> 01:55:59.159 believe in a worldview that allows for me to believe 2096 01:55:59.199 --> 01:55:59.720 that I exist. 2097 01:56:00.920 --> 01:56:03.800 Well, that, but that's not your justification because you haven't 2098 01:56:03.840 --> 01:56:05.720 given me a coherent account. Let me give an example 2099 01:56:05.720 --> 01:56:08.119 where it's not coherent. You're telling me that the Bible 2100 01:56:08.199 --> 01:56:10.680 is corrupted except when Joseph Smith fixes it. Well, the 2101 01:56:10.720 --> 01:56:13.159 Bible teaches that there's no new prophets after the time 2102 01:56:13.199 --> 01:56:16.479 of the Apostles, So you're you're automatically counseled out by 2103 01:56:16.520 --> 01:56:19.239 the fact that you claim there's a prophet that's a misstatement. 2104 01:56:19.279 --> 01:56:21.920 Though you're you're making assertion that the Bible doesn't make 2105 01:56:22.880 --> 01:56:23.600 uh no, it does. 2106 01:56:23.680 --> 01:56:25.560 It says that in the last days He's revealed this 2107 01:56:25.680 --> 01:56:28.439 to us through his son Hebrews one, and it says 2108 01:56:28.479 --> 01:56:30.560 that the times of the prophets he revealed things in 2109 01:56:30.640 --> 01:56:33.279 a different way. So that text says there's no new 2110 01:56:33.359 --> 01:56:37.239 prophets after the time of Christ. I mean that's there's 2111 01:56:37.319 --> 01:56:39.720 no in this last days. He spoke to us through 2112 01:56:39.720 --> 01:56:42.119 his son, Jesus said that John the Baptist was the 2113 01:56:42.159 --> 01:56:44.680 last of the prophets. There are no new prophets. Yes 2114 01:56:44.760 --> 01:56:47.319 he did, Jesus, Jesus, Yes he did. He said John 2115 01:56:47.439 --> 01:56:48.600 was the last of the prophets. 2116 01:56:49.359 --> 01:56:50.439 No, yes he did. 2117 01:56:51.079 --> 01:56:52.840 What do you mean he did not say John was 2118 01:56:52.840 --> 01:56:54.520 the last prophet? Yes he did. 2119 01:56:54.640 --> 01:56:56.720 What are you talking about? Jesus says, John is the 2120 01:56:56.840 --> 01:56:58.560 last of the prophets, and since then the Kingdom of 2121 01:56:58.560 --> 01:57:03.319 God has been preached. Nope, bro, So just saying nope, 2122 01:57:03.359 --> 01:57:04.359 wrong is your argument. 2123 01:57:05.000 --> 01:57:07.319 You can't you can't produce that claim in the Bible. 2124 01:57:07.359 --> 01:57:08.119 It doesn't exist, Bro. 2125 01:57:08.600 --> 01:57:10.640 John is the last of the prophets and since that 2126 01:57:10.760 --> 01:57:12.079 time the kingdom has been preached. 2127 01:57:12.359 --> 01:57:14.159 Just you're pulling that out of a hat. That is 2128 01:57:14.239 --> 01:57:14.880 not the scripture. 2129 01:57:15.079 --> 01:57:17.279 What you literally don't even know the scriptures. Of course 2130 01:57:17.319 --> 01:57:17.920 it's in the scripture. 2131 01:57:18.279 --> 01:57:21.640 All the scripture doesn't exist. It said John is a 2132 01:57:21.640 --> 01:57:23.960 great profit. But you never said John was the last prophet. 2133 01:57:24.279 --> 01:57:25.640 You're you're making a lot of inferm. 2134 01:57:25.760 --> 01:57:27.880 You're an idiot. What are you talking about? 2135 01:57:29.840 --> 01:57:30.159 What's that? 2136 01:57:34.439 --> 01:57:36.399 I'm pulling it out. I'm pulling it up. 2137 01:57:39.119 --> 01:57:40.880 So let's go back to my original claim. Though. 2138 01:57:40.920 --> 01:57:42.680 That's the point now, now that I'm going to pull 2139 01:57:42.720 --> 01:57:43.800 it up, you don't want to go you want to 2140 01:57:43.840 --> 01:57:44.920 go back to the claim. 2141 01:57:45.119 --> 01:57:46.720 I just I don't know how long it'll take you 2142 01:57:46.760 --> 01:57:49.439 to pull it up. Sorry, go ahead, Jay, pull it up. 2143 01:57:55.479 --> 01:58:00.600 The law and profits were until John said that time 2144 01:58:01.039 --> 01:58:04.000 the Kingdom of Heaven has been preached and everyone presses 2145 01:58:04.079 --> 01:58:07.000 into it. There are no more profits. You are in 2146 01:58:07.039 --> 01:58:17.800 a cult. Oh, hold on, Luke, sixteen sixteen. There is 2147 01:58:17.880 --> 01:58:18.319 no text. 2148 01:58:19.199 --> 01:58:20.520 If you want to make fun of me because you're 2149 01:58:20.520 --> 01:58:21.520 losing the argument, that's fine. 2150 01:58:22.479 --> 01:58:25.640 I just produced the text you said doesn't exist. You 2151 01:58:25.800 --> 01:58:28.319 produced the to it, you. 2152 01:58:28.680 --> 01:58:30.439 Added to or took away from the scripture. 2153 01:58:30.520 --> 01:58:33.359 You're I literally read you the text, you liar. I 2154 01:58:33.560 --> 01:58:36.319 read you the text you're under I literally read you 2155 01:58:36.399 --> 01:58:39.760 the text. Now I'm under condemnation. So because you added 2156 01:58:39.800 --> 01:58:42.319 to it, added, I let I literally just read you 2157 01:58:42.399 --> 01:58:42.720 the text. 2158 01:58:42.800 --> 01:58:45.000 You lie, and then you added, you added a whole 2159 01:58:45.119 --> 01:58:45.880 sentence after it. 2160 01:58:46.279 --> 01:58:48.960 That was my explanation, dummy, Obviously. 2161 01:58:48.720 --> 01:58:51.039 No explanation needed. It's your that was your. 2162 01:58:51.199 --> 01:58:53.159 Then why are you talking? Why are you talking? No 2163 01:58:53.199 --> 01:58:57.279 explanations needed because you added an explanation, you're making it. 2164 01:58:57.399 --> 01:58:59.600 Oh but no, but so but you can give an explanation. 2165 01:58:59.800 --> 01:59:03.039 So you're refuting your own dumb principle. I don't know 2166 01:59:03.079 --> 01:59:06.279 what we're You just said explanations can't be given. Now 2167 01:59:06.319 --> 01:59:07.640 you're giving explanations. 2168 01:59:08.479 --> 01:59:08.600 Yea. 2169 01:59:10.399 --> 01:59:13.680 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time, 2170 01:59:13.760 --> 01:59:18.279 the Kingdom of God has preached were until John. You're 2171 01:59:18.319 --> 01:59:27.119 in a cult. No, no, no, no, we finally got 2172 01:59:27.199 --> 01:59:40.199 a Mormon. Wow, who's up next? Jeff m. 2173 01:59:45.520 --> 01:59:52.680 Yep ye, Hey, Jay, I just had a few questions. One, 2174 01:59:54.439 --> 01:59:56.399 I'm I'm an aspiring to be Orthodox, and. 2175 01:59:56.439 --> 01:59:59.560 I just I'm not doing f a q and catea 2176 01:59:59.600 --> 02:00:01.600 chemic qui since man I said that like ten times. 2177 02:00:01.720 --> 02:00:02.840 Not trying to be rid to you, but I'm not 2178 02:00:02.880 --> 02:00:21.079 doing that. Cassius, Hello, yep, hello, Yeah. 2179 02:00:23.600 --> 02:00:25.600 So I got a problem. 2180 02:00:25.720 --> 02:00:29.479 I'm an Orthodox Christian and I got a problem with 2181 02:00:29.560 --> 02:00:31.399 this Muslim scholar in Australia. 2182 02:00:31.520 --> 02:00:34.840 He lives near me, and I was wondering if you 2183 02:00:35.159 --> 02:00:39.479 would be willing to debate him for because I don't 2184 02:00:39.520 --> 02:00:42.720 know who, have no idea who this is? His name 2185 02:00:42.880 --> 02:00:44.279 is was siem rosv. 2186 02:00:45.039 --> 02:00:46.399 I mean, is he a known person? 2187 02:00:47.520 --> 02:00:51.680 He's he has a large Muslim organization in Australia. 2188 02:00:52.920 --> 02:00:55.079 I don't know. Man, Maybe you can send me his 2189 02:00:55.199 --> 02:00:57.159 links and I'll see if I want to debate him. 2190 02:00:58.920 --> 02:01:02.119 Let's see. I gotta calm down. Things are getting getting 2191 02:01:02.199 --> 02:01:06.680 hot and spicy, getting heated up in here. We didn't 2192 02:01:06.680 --> 02:01:09.079 even get into the good Mormon stuff. It was getting 2193 02:01:09.119 --> 02:01:12.840 too stupid. It was just gonna turn just ridiculous. By 2194 02:01:12.880 --> 02:01:16.680 the way, there's like multiple passages that go through the 2195 02:01:16.760 --> 02:01:18.920 cessation of the Office of problem. That's just one of 2196 02:01:19.000 --> 02:01:21.880 the texts. We could go into the Zechari thirteen. We 2197 02:01:21.960 --> 02:01:24.520 could go into the Book of Jude. I mean, there's 2198 02:01:24.600 --> 02:01:29.199 many passages that even once some are explicit, some implicit, 2199 02:01:29.399 --> 02:01:33.159 that there's a finality to revelation in the person of 2200 02:01:33.279 --> 02:01:39.600 Christ and the time of the apostles. The faith once 2201 02:01:39.680 --> 02:01:41.840 We're all delivered to the Saints. There's no new profits. 2202 02:01:42.039 --> 02:01:48.479 This immediately cuts off Muslims and Mormons. Caleb was, oh, 2203 02:01:48.680 --> 02:01:49.239 so is my. 2204 02:01:49.279 --> 02:01:50.680 My quality good? Yeah? 2205 02:01:51.560 --> 02:01:53.680 All right, yeah, I just realized like halfway through that 2206 02:01:53.680 --> 02:01:56.319 you're actually a Christian. So I don't have anything to debate. 2207 02:01:56.760 --> 02:01:59.199 But would you mind if I just like says or shit, No, 2208 02:02:00.119 --> 02:02:03.920 this is about what I'm just gonna like talk about 2209 02:02:04.319 --> 02:02:05.840 some ship to disprove. 2210 02:02:05.479 --> 02:02:06.960 A couple of religions for the chatters. 2211 02:02:07.159 --> 02:02:09.359 No, this is not like where you come and give 2212 02:02:09.439 --> 02:02:18.479 a sermon. What's up? Let's see who's next. Ms Mark. 2213 02:02:23.720 --> 02:02:25.159 By the way, I have a old video on the 2214 02:02:25.279 --> 02:02:28.000 cessation of the office of the prophet in the and 2215 02:02:28.079 --> 02:02:30.479 it's in the Old Testament sense like new revelations like 2216 02:02:31.119 --> 02:02:35.119 Mohammad and Joseph Smith. It's on my clips channel. So 2217 02:02:35.159 --> 02:02:37.479 if you come over here to for people who want 2218 02:02:37.520 --> 02:02:39.680 the full Because this came up with that Muslim girl 2219 02:02:39.720 --> 02:02:42.000 the other day. She was asking the same question, because 2220 02:02:43.039 --> 02:02:47.840 what do you mean there's no new prophit uh, And 2221 02:02:48.439 --> 02:02:51.800 let's see what the video is called that. I mean, 2222 02:02:51.880 --> 02:03:02.560 you can come on here. What's your position? So what 2223 02:03:02.680 --> 02:03:04.520 are you talking about? The come on you're gonna come 2224 02:03:04.560 --> 02:03:07.479 on here and gibber a bunch of Arabic gibberish, or 2225 02:03:07.479 --> 02:03:10.600 are you gonna make an argument? They actually think this 2226 02:03:10.760 --> 02:03:13.039 is like an argument like that, I'm not kidding. Remember 2227 02:03:13.079 --> 02:03:15.640 when we saw this with a post prophet, right, like 2228 02:03:16.079 --> 02:03:19.960 when Muhammed a. Job starts singing to Jordan Peterson. Jordan 2229 02:03:20.039 --> 02:03:20.600 Peterson is. 2230 02:03:20.600 --> 02:03:21.880 Like, why do you do that? 2231 02:03:22.600 --> 02:03:22.640 What? 2232 02:03:22.920 --> 02:03:23.279 What's that? 2233 02:03:23.520 --> 02:03:23.560 What? 2234 02:03:23.800 --> 02:03:25.399 How do you why do you know when to do that? 2235 02:03:25.560 --> 02:03:31.000 What is that? So? Why did you do that? 2236 02:03:32.000 --> 02:03:34.319 And like, in the in their mind, that's an argument. 2237 02:03:35.079 --> 02:03:38.560 They're like, he owned he owned him. He's singing Arabic. 2238 02:03:38.840 --> 02:03:41.319 He owned him, we owned him. 2239 02:03:41.359 --> 02:03:41.920 Brought up. 2240 02:03:45.560 --> 02:03:57.319 Where is the No New Revelations? I can't remember if 2241 02:03:57.319 --> 02:04:02.720 it's an older video or I think it's older. Yes, 2242 02:04:05.079 --> 02:04:19.000 go back a little bit. I want to pull this 2243 02:04:19.159 --> 02:04:21.479 up because it keeps coming up where people think that 2244 02:04:23.119 --> 02:04:27.119 there's this ongoing office of the prophet, which like because 2245 02:04:27.119 --> 02:04:29.279 if there's not the ongoing office of the prophet, then 2246 02:04:29.439 --> 02:04:32.079 that cuts out a lot of these cults right in Islam. 2247 02:04:33.119 --> 02:04:40.840 But I can't remember what I titled that video No 2248 02:04:41.039 --> 02:04:49.600 New I should I tell that something simpler? So today 2249 02:04:50.039 --> 02:04:52.439 today is open debate. Please do not come with all 2250 02:04:52.479 --> 02:04:56.680 of your catechumen questions. It's not FAQ, it's gigantic text 2251 02:04:56.760 --> 02:05:00.960 to the top that says debate. So this is debate day, 2252 02:05:04.479 --> 02:05:05.960 and if you want sports stream, you can send a 2253 02:05:06.000 --> 02:05:07.760 super chat. I gotta find this. I know, I know, 2254 02:05:07.840 --> 02:05:12.479 I made a clipse video of this moon beavers. That's 2255 02:05:12.560 --> 02:05:12.760 not it. 2256 02:05:13.119 --> 02:05:24.600 Okay, it's not any of those. 2257 02:05:35.760 --> 02:05:39.279 I just pulled it up. I thought when that Muslim 2258 02:05:39.279 --> 02:05:52.119 girl called in, maybe I never made a clip. I 2259 02:05:52.159 --> 02:05:59.159 don't know, no, because I remember it was fda Is 2260 02:05:59.239 --> 02:06:02.399 on the call and we we're talking. Does anybody remember 2261 02:06:02.439 --> 02:06:02.800 this clip? 2262 02:06:02.960 --> 02:06:03.000 No? 2263 02:06:03.119 --> 02:06:05.680 New, I don't know. Let's have the finest other time. 2264 02:06:07.199 --> 02:06:07.560 W K. 2265 02:06:08.439 --> 02:06:11.119 Please don't ask me Orthodox questions basic Orthodox questions. 2266 02:06:17.520 --> 02:06:20.560 Hey, so I have a question that's not really like 2267 02:06:20.680 --> 02:06:23.239 basic simply. 2268 02:06:23.319 --> 02:06:28.079 I hear Andrew Wilson frequently, and I've asked my you know, 2269 02:06:29.560 --> 02:06:33.720 priest about this, and a sentinarian and everything, and I'm 2270 02:06:33.760 --> 02:06:38.760 getting different answers from everybody on the using of the 2271 02:06:38.840 --> 02:06:42.039 Eucharis in a Roman Catholic church. 2272 02:06:43.159 --> 02:06:47.479 Like I hear that andrews says I could go down 2273 02:06:47.520 --> 02:06:50.840 to a Catholic church and take communion there, but they 2274 02:06:50.880 --> 02:06:51.960 can't do it with us. 2275 02:06:52.720 --> 02:06:55.760 And then I hear Roman Catholics say the same thing, 2276 02:06:55.960 --> 02:06:56.640 just the reverse. 2277 02:06:57.960 --> 02:07:00.319 No, Roman Catholics cannot commune an Orthodox Church. 2278 02:07:03.199 --> 02:07:05.880 Okay, but could I go to like Sacred Heart and 2279 02:07:06.279 --> 02:07:07.680 commune there? Yeah? 2280 02:07:07.800 --> 02:07:09.920 But what's what what's what's the point. 2281 02:07:12.079 --> 02:07:14.159 I'm just trying to get just an answer, whether it's 2282 02:07:14.279 --> 02:07:16.720 you know, prohibited or not. No. 2283 02:07:17.600 --> 02:07:20.600 I mean, Robin Catholics are are all over the place, 2284 02:07:20.680 --> 02:07:22.640 so yeah, I'm sure they'll let you. But the norm 2285 02:07:22.720 --> 02:07:26.039 in the Orthodox Church is only baptized Orthodox can commune, 2286 02:07:26.359 --> 02:07:33.680 and the priest says that in every liturgy. Yeah, so, 2287 02:07:33.960 --> 02:07:36.560 I mean it's not it's not even controversial. I'm not 2288 02:07:36.600 --> 02:07:38.880 trying to be rude to you, but like, that's not 2289 02:07:39.039 --> 02:07:43.520 even controversial. And that is a very fac question. Elijah, 2290 02:07:46.319 --> 02:07:48.439 Does anybody know where this video is that I'm talking about. 2291 02:07:48.520 --> 02:07:53.800 That's a clip of like it's from a live tream 2292 02:07:53.840 --> 02:07:56.079 I did where we covered this whole question of whether 2293 02:07:56.159 --> 02:07:59.600 there's no new there's no new revelations and new prophets 2294 02:07:59.760 --> 02:08:11.600 some like that. Elijah, what's up? You have to unmute, man, guys, 2295 02:08:11.600 --> 02:08:19.479 you gotta unmute. You have to turn your speaker on 2296 02:08:19.560 --> 02:08:22.600 if you want to come talk, dude, you have to 2297 02:08:22.640 --> 02:08:25.039 give Mike permissions so we can. There's no sound. 2298 02:08:31.520 --> 02:08:41.840 Matt, Hey, what's up? 2299 02:08:43.960 --> 02:08:47.119 And I'm sorry? 2300 02:08:48.439 --> 02:08:51.840 How do you reconcile the fact that how do you 2301 02:08:51.880 --> 02:08:54.479 reconcile the fact that in the boiblet says and the 2302 02:08:54.560 --> 02:09:02.760 Gospel will be preached to the whole world, will be 2303 02:09:02.800 --> 02:09:05.399 preached to the whole world. And but the schism kind of. 2304 02:09:05.399 --> 02:09:07.439 Happened before was preaching to the whole world? I mean, 2305 02:09:08.000 --> 02:09:10.399 surely the God he wants an orthodox coind. 2306 02:09:10.199 --> 02:09:12.600 Of a world be to be preaching the whole world before. 2307 02:09:13.279 --> 02:09:15.720 And Paul says the Gospels preaching every preaching and or 2308 02:09:15.760 --> 02:09:17.239 having a Colossians, So what do you mean? 2309 02:09:19.000 --> 02:09:21.960 Yeah, but it's preached by a Catholic point of background. 2310 02:09:22.079 --> 02:09:24.880 Now, oh, so you think the entire first one thousand 2311 02:09:24.920 --> 02:09:26.199 years of the church was Roman Catholic? 2312 02:09:28.000 --> 02:09:31.920 No, the layer of years war, the what the later years? 2313 02:09:33.880 --> 02:09:36.199 Okay, well, if the first thousand years weren't Roman Catholic, 2314 02:09:36.199 --> 02:09:38.239 then the Roman Calolic churches in the historical church. 2315 02:09:40.680 --> 02:09:42.520 I know, but it was it was more of the 2316 02:09:42.560 --> 02:09:44.960 preacher not done in the later years, say, like you know, 2317 02:09:45.079 --> 02:09:47.279 the sixteen hundreds when they went to the Americas. 2318 02:09:52.680 --> 02:09:53.880 I don't understand the argument. 2319 02:09:54.359 --> 02:09:59.039 What are you saying, Sorry, I have another question. 2320 02:10:00.279 --> 02:10:03.119 You're saying that the entire world has been preached the 2321 02:10:03.239 --> 02:10:04.840 Roman Catholic Gospels that you're saying. 2322 02:10:05.720 --> 02:10:07.479 I'm not saying that it has been, but I'm saying 2323 02:10:07.520 --> 02:10:10.000 that I would take the majority of it has been, 2324 02:10:10.159 --> 02:10:12.760 rather than the Orthodox to it like THEE would. 2325 02:10:13.319 --> 02:10:16.199 Well, but if the first thousand years of Christianity was Orthodox, 2326 02:10:16.319 --> 02:10:19.119 that's not true, I know. 2327 02:10:19.239 --> 02:10:21.279 But the first thousand news of Christianity only brings you 2328 02:10:21.399 --> 02:10:24.479 so far. So say, when was America discovered? The America's 2329 02:10:24.560 --> 02:10:28.840 got the Catholic kind of introduction to Christianity. 2330 02:10:28.960 --> 02:10:33.039 No, No, the first Christianity here might have actually been orthodox. 2331 02:10:35.960 --> 02:10:38.399 Well, you have been taught with probably the Conquistators, which 2332 02:10:38.399 --> 02:10:39.520 are primarily Roman Cathelic. 2333 02:10:39.600 --> 02:10:43.039 Well, there's evidence that there was actually Orthodoxy prior to that. 2334 02:10:43.840 --> 02:10:47.079 Perhaps there's certain vikings that might have come, but it 2335 02:10:47.159 --> 02:10:50.399 doesn't even matter because at first or whatever, Like I mean, 2336 02:10:50.920 --> 02:10:52.680 it's a question of what's true. It's not a question 2337 02:10:52.760 --> 02:10:55.439 of numbers. So this is an often Roman Catholic used 2338 02:10:55.479 --> 02:10:58.239 argument that it's numbers that prove things. But I mean 2339 02:10:58.760 --> 02:11:01.239 does that mean that arian is was true because Arianism 2340 02:11:01.359 --> 02:11:02.960 was the dominant number in the fourth century. 2341 02:11:04.039 --> 02:11:05.239 I'm not saying it's more dominant. 2342 02:11:05.239 --> 02:11:07.119 But what of the saying He did say that though, 2343 02:11:07.159 --> 02:11:08.239 because you said it's numbers. 2344 02:11:09.720 --> 02:11:12.279 No, But what I'm getting at is in the voyebo 2345 02:11:12.319 --> 02:11:16.880 doesn't even say that Christianity will be preached to all 2346 02:11:16.960 --> 02:11:17.439 the nations. 2347 02:11:17.600 --> 02:11:21.199 But what's the w Well yeah, but but I mean, 2348 02:11:21.880 --> 02:11:24.119 the Romancality Church could go away and in the next 2349 02:11:24.199 --> 02:11:26.439 thousand years Orthodoxy preach it to the rest of the world. 2350 02:11:26.600 --> 02:11:29.039 So how is that going to be a proof for 2351 02:11:29.199 --> 02:11:31.600 Roman Catholicism if there's I mean, that's just based on 2352 02:11:31.760 --> 02:11:33.119 like things we don't know in the future. 2353 02:11:34.000 --> 02:11:35.399 Yeah, that's a good point. That's good point. 2354 02:11:35.479 --> 02:11:38.520 Ye here, what was your other question? 2355 02:11:40.079 --> 02:11:41.840 I heard this on the debate and I continue to 2356 02:11:41.880 --> 02:11:42.520 get an answer for it. 2357 02:11:42.760 --> 02:11:45.159 Boy and eighties said this. He said, if God is 2358 02:11:45.359 --> 02:11:47.960 a perfect being, and why does he even feel the 2359 02:11:48.039 --> 02:11:48.720 need to create? 2360 02:11:50.479 --> 02:11:51.760 It wasn't not perfect himself. 2361 02:11:52.239 --> 02:11:55.239 It wasn't a need. It was an overflowing of divine goodness, 2362 02:11:55.319 --> 02:11:58.159 which is what Saint maxim As another church father, says. 2363 02:11:58.199 --> 02:12:02.800 So he wanted to express even more of his goodness 2364 02:12:02.880 --> 02:12:05.560 by having other beings that could share in communion and 2365 02:12:05.640 --> 02:12:09.800 goodness with him, and so he was sufficient in terms 2366 02:12:09.880 --> 02:12:17.119 of the intertrinitarian life from all existence. Yes, this is 2367 02:12:17.199 --> 02:12:20.960 for people who disagree. So please don't bring me a 2368 02:12:20.960 --> 02:12:23.960 whole bunch of orthodox I f AQ questions. Don't I don't. 2369 02:12:24.000 --> 02:12:27.039 Don't ask me about your fasting and your all this stuff. 2370 02:12:27.039 --> 02:12:38.680 And I want to talk about that glove. You don't 2371 02:12:38.680 --> 02:12:42.920 even have your mic on. Man, You've been begging to 2372 02:12:42.960 --> 02:12:44.640 talk this entire time. You don't have a mic on. 2373 02:12:46.039 --> 02:12:46.239 Eric? 2374 02:12:46.680 --> 02:12:47.039 What's up? 2375 02:12:47.119 --> 02:12:47.279 Eric? 2376 02:12:54.560 --> 02:12:58.640 Hdo thank you? I have a question regarding the Bible. 2377 02:12:59.359 --> 02:13:04.199 There is a Jesus says that every said a man 2378 02:13:04.640 --> 02:13:06.720 who can I'm cast out. You meant in the name 2379 02:13:06.800 --> 02:13:07.279 of Jesus. 2380 02:13:07.960 --> 02:13:09.640 So I want I want to know. 2381 02:13:11.359 --> 02:13:15.079 Possible that we all we don't have to be about 2382 02:13:15.119 --> 02:13:16.279 a dis denomination. 2383 02:13:16.479 --> 02:13:19.439 But no, because after that he says that this person 2384 02:13:19.520 --> 02:13:22.359 will not forever be apart from us, but he will 2385 02:13:22.399 --> 02:13:26.039 also be eventually with us. An Act eighteen and nineteen, 2386 02:13:26.079 --> 02:13:28.840 when the apostles go out, they bring the disciples that 2387 02:13:29.000 --> 02:13:30.640 had not heard about the Holy Spirit or had not 2388 02:13:30.760 --> 02:13:42.319 been christmated under the episcopacy. But good question, Dave yep. 2389 02:13:42.399 --> 02:13:45.079 I'm sorry about I'm sorry about wasting your time last 2390 02:13:45.079 --> 02:13:45.560 time I came on. 2391 02:13:45.720 --> 02:13:47.119 But a serious question. 2392 02:13:47.199 --> 02:13:48.840 I don't remember what we're talking about, what you're talking about. 2393 02:13:50.279 --> 02:13:52.880 I'm not orthodox, I said, I was aspiring to be. 2394 02:13:53.000 --> 02:13:56.600 But my question wasn't about catechumud or whatever. 2395 02:13:57.000 --> 02:13:57.239 Okay. 2396 02:14:00.000 --> 02:14:03.199 The question was with regard to one of your accusations 2397 02:14:03.239 --> 02:14:08.239 against Protestantism. Okay, how the damnation of the son logically 2398 02:14:08.359 --> 02:14:09.920 concludes to Nestorianism? 2399 02:14:10.279 --> 02:14:10.600 Correct? 2400 02:14:10.600 --> 02:14:12.880 I was hoping you help me understand that a little bit. 2401 02:14:13.319 --> 02:14:15.520 Well, it's just a denial of the trinity. So the 2402 02:14:15.880 --> 02:14:18.000 Son is a divine person, he's the second person of 2403 02:14:18.039 --> 02:14:20.119 the Godhead. So how could he be damned by the 2404 02:14:20.159 --> 02:14:22.439 Father when he shares the same will, the same nature 2405 02:14:22.800 --> 02:14:24.920 and the Father and the Spirit and dwell him. To 2406 02:14:25.079 --> 02:14:27.159 damn him would be to split the trinity. So it's 2407 02:14:27.159 --> 02:14:31.199 actually worse than just an historian, it's actually arian mm hmm. 2408 02:14:32.720 --> 02:14:38.600 Okay. I I read Hermann Bavnick a little bit ago. 2409 02:14:38.960 --> 02:14:42.119 I think, I think, oh, I'm so sorry. 2410 02:14:43.560 --> 02:14:49.720 And he addressed this particular objection, and I promise I'm 2411 02:14:49.720 --> 02:14:51.920 gonna butcher this. But he said something in regard to 2412 02:14:53.119 --> 02:14:55.279 the subsistence of the son. 2413 02:14:58.760 --> 02:15:02.720 Subsistence means per so the Sun is the subsistence. 2414 02:15:03.760 --> 02:15:06.800 So he said something with regard to like the subsistence 2415 02:15:06.840 --> 02:15:09.359 of the son fully present on the cross. 2416 02:15:09.720 --> 02:15:10.000 With that. 2417 02:15:12.199 --> 02:15:15.279 Subsistence means person, that's the same thing as the son. 2418 02:15:16.680 --> 02:15:19.640 So I don't know, this is just stating that he's 2419 02:15:19.680 --> 02:15:24.359 the second person. How does that answer this question? I 2420 02:15:24.399 --> 02:15:25.199 don't think he does. 2421 02:15:25.800 --> 02:15:30.000 That's just what I read. I wasn't sure if if 2422 02:15:30.039 --> 02:15:30.560 it did or not. 2423 02:15:30.680 --> 02:15:33.600 I mean it actually it proves the point because the 2424 02:15:33.720 --> 02:15:36.840 subject that's on the cross is the divine person of 2425 02:15:36.880 --> 02:15:40.840 the Sun, the second subject in the triad, the trinity. Right, 2426 02:15:41.359 --> 02:15:44.000 So when he says, my God, my God, why have 2427 02:15:44.079 --> 02:15:46.680 you forsaken me? If that's damnation, then that's the son 2428 02:15:46.800 --> 02:15:49.399 being damned by the father, and that's actually classical Reformation 2429 02:15:49.520 --> 02:15:55.000 the elogy. Okay, all right, that's okay, good questions. I'm 2430 02:15:55.000 --> 02:15:56.960 not trying to be rude to you, but tonight was 2431 02:15:57.000 --> 02:16:01.039 a lot of Uh, we've had some sass so far. Kamala, 2432 02:16:01.119 --> 02:16:04.479 what's up? We've got some come all up in the 2433 02:16:04.560 --> 02:16:08.359 Kamala Unism. Come mama, what's up coming with hers? 2434 02:16:08.920 --> 02:16:09.079 Oh? 2435 02:16:09.159 --> 02:16:13.439 Bro yo, it's a quick question. It's really nothing like crazy. 2436 02:16:13.560 --> 02:16:15.960 Let me just pull it up. I affirm your words 2437 02:16:16.000 --> 02:16:16.359 and stuff. 2438 02:16:16.600 --> 02:16:19.119 It's just you affirm my words. Uh huh, your troll? 2439 02:16:19.239 --> 02:16:19.680 What do you want? 2440 02:16:20.279 --> 02:16:20.319 No? 2441 02:16:20.520 --> 02:16:26.000 I should I have a question. So you know, papias correct. 2442 02:16:27.079 --> 02:16:34.399 Papias, papayas, papayas. What are you talking about? I have words. 2443 02:16:34.559 --> 02:16:38.159 Anybody who starts with this weird fake voice, I have 2444 02:16:38.319 --> 02:16:43.719 fired your words. Dude, I already know you're trolling. Shiro. 2445 02:16:45.280 --> 02:16:51.799 I affirm your words. Dude's name was Kamala. Come on, Shiro, 2446 02:16:59.520 --> 02:17:02.159 I mean a hi Hi. 2447 02:17:02.399 --> 02:17:07.719 Can you hear me? Yes? So, I don't like this 2448 02:17:07.799 --> 02:17:10.440 is not a debate thing, but I just want to ask. 2449 02:17:12.079 --> 02:17:15.799 I like not an agnostic, but I adopted exist of God, 2450 02:17:15.840 --> 02:17:18.440 and I want to know what to guarantees that exist 2451 02:17:19.200 --> 02:17:23.360 being in that presents and energy matter, Like why the 2452 02:17:23.399 --> 02:17:24.159 guarantees God? 2453 02:17:24.239 --> 02:17:24.399 You know. 2454 02:17:26.399 --> 02:17:27.639 The transondent argument? 2455 02:17:30.399 --> 02:17:31.879 Can you give me? Yes? 2456 02:17:32.000 --> 02:17:34.760 You can go watch all the videos on it. Stan, 2457 02:17:41.879 --> 02:17:42.319 what's up? 2458 02:17:42.399 --> 02:17:44.079 Jay? Hey? 2459 02:17:45.319 --> 02:17:47.200 I was one of the I'm on your side, but 2460 02:17:47.200 --> 02:17:48.799 I was wondering if this is a good argument for 2461 02:17:49.479 --> 02:17:52.319 if God begets God every other being they were only 2462 02:17:52.399 --> 02:17:55.559 able to beget the same nature, so God can't be 2463 02:17:55.760 --> 02:17:57.520 why would God beget a lesser nature? 2464 02:17:57.559 --> 02:17:58.520 Being? Right? 2465 02:17:58.879 --> 02:17:59.319 I agree? 2466 02:17:59.440 --> 02:18:01.680 Yeah, okay, that's all I want of them. 2467 02:18:02.680 --> 02:18:04.440 Yeah, I think that's a good point to make with 2468 02:18:05.360 --> 02:18:07.719 you know, people that would say deny the deity of 2469 02:18:07.760 --> 02:18:11.440 the sun or whatever, like if God's begetting then you know, 2470 02:18:11.559 --> 02:18:13.840 if you had an arian who said that he's begetting 2471 02:18:13.879 --> 02:18:16.040 a creature, well that doesn't make any sense to because 2472 02:18:16.079 --> 02:18:27.920 to beget presupposes the same nature. Right, that's a good point, Hans, Right, 2473 02:18:28.200 --> 02:18:28.520 go ahead. 2474 02:18:29.920 --> 02:18:32.079 Hey, Jay, I just wanted to say, first of all, 2475 02:18:32.120 --> 02:18:35.079 thank you for putting this platform for all of us 2476 02:18:35.159 --> 02:18:36.639 to force our opinions. 2477 02:18:38.959 --> 02:18:43.079 Just from a general perspective, do you believe that Jesus 2478 02:18:43.200 --> 02:18:43.639 wanted to. 2479 02:18:45.520 --> 02:18:47.680 His intention was for the church to be united? 2480 02:18:49.239 --> 02:18:49.440 Yes? 2481 02:18:49.959 --> 02:18:52.840 Yes, Well I actually agree with you in terms of 2482 02:18:53.479 --> 02:18:57.159 the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church. But do you 2483 02:18:57.239 --> 02:18:59.879 not see that the Orthodox is Christianity. 2484 02:19:00.239 --> 02:19:03.200 Emphasizes national churches and decentralized authority. 2485 02:19:04.959 --> 02:19:06.959 Yeah, I mean, and that's what you see in the 2486 02:19:07.000 --> 02:19:08.000 ecumenical councils. 2487 02:19:08.159 --> 02:19:12.840 So yeah, and would you would you suggest or would 2488 02:19:12.879 --> 02:19:17.840 you argue that this would weaken the church's influence. 2489 02:19:19.600 --> 02:19:21.239 Rather than I think. 2490 02:19:21.120 --> 02:19:24.399 It's I think it's I think it's natural because Jesus said, 2491 02:19:24.440 --> 02:19:27.319 go out and preach the Gospel to the ethnois the nations. 2492 02:19:27.479 --> 02:19:29.360 Those that's who he says in the Great Commission to 2493 02:19:29.399 --> 02:19:31.479 go convert. When you go through the history of the 2494 02:19:31.559 --> 02:19:34.680 Roman Empire, that's that's the nations that convert. When they 2495 02:19:34.719 --> 02:19:37.959 come to the ecumenical councils, they're represented as national bishops. 2496 02:19:38.280 --> 02:19:41.959 You even have the Autocephalish Church of Cyprus recognize that 2497 02:19:42.040 --> 02:19:44.399 the Council of Ephesus. So this makes perfect sense. 2498 02:19:45.559 --> 02:19:47.879 Yeah. True, you could argue it's natural, but is it? 2499 02:19:48.280 --> 02:19:49.760 Is it what Christ intended? 2500 02:19:49.920 --> 02:19:52.479 Yeah, because it's any I mean Christ guides the ecumenical 2501 02:19:52.520 --> 02:19:53.399 councils absolutely. 2502 02:19:54.799 --> 02:19:57.120 Who's the one who's the voice of the Orthodox Church? 2503 02:19:58.239 --> 02:19:59.440 Who's the who's the authority? 2504 02:19:59.600 --> 02:20:00.600 Christ and Holy Schort? 2505 02:20:02.120 --> 02:20:05.680 Okay, well, how do I how do I find out 2506 02:20:05.719 --> 02:20:06.360 what Christ. 2507 02:20:06.200 --> 02:20:10.680 Wants in the Orthodox I I agree with you with 2508 02:20:10.760 --> 02:20:12.639 the Pope, the Pope especially. 2509 02:20:12.399 --> 02:20:15.159 This, Well, then if you agree, then the then the 2510 02:20:15.319 --> 02:20:18.319 then you can't ask me a Roman Catholic presupposition about 2511 02:20:18.360 --> 02:20:21.120 our church. So you're basically saying, where's the person in 2512 02:20:21.200 --> 02:20:23.600 the Orthodox Church? Is like the pope. There isn't one, 2513 02:20:24.680 --> 02:20:31.399 but it's it's the institution itself is is Uh, it's decentralized. 2514 02:20:30.879 --> 02:20:36.040 Far greater that rather than having a decentralized. 2515 02:20:36.760 --> 02:20:38.920 Institution like Orthodox Christianity. 2516 02:20:39.319 --> 02:20:41.879 Well, that's not the Roman Catholic position because Vatican One 2517 02:20:41.920 --> 02:20:45.120 does not say that the Romancallic Church is a vaster church. 2518 02:20:45.239 --> 02:20:46.920 It puts everything on the guy in Rome. 2519 02:20:50.200 --> 02:20:52.360 I look anyway, I just I want to thank you 2520 02:20:52.479 --> 02:20:53.280 and appreciate. 2521 02:20:53.319 --> 02:20:56.000 I appreciate. Yeah, good questions. Yeah, I'm not not trying 2522 02:20:56.000 --> 02:20:56.959 to be combative. I'm just. 2523 02:20:58.840 --> 02:20:59.040 To me. 2524 02:20:59.159 --> 02:21:02.920 It seems like the questions presupposed, you know, like, well, 2525 02:21:02.959 --> 02:21:06.639 where's your Roman Catholic papal figure in your joy? We 2526 02:21:06.680 --> 02:21:08.760 don't want that, we don't need that. Hayes, what's up? 2527 02:21:10.079 --> 02:21:10.239 Yeah. 2528 02:21:10.280 --> 02:21:13.239 I think for Roman Catholics it's just like it's inconceivable. 2529 02:21:13.280 --> 02:21:16.239 They have a hard time believing that God could be 2530 02:21:16.399 --> 02:21:20.120 fully present in the local church, which is the Orthodox view. 2531 02:21:20.600 --> 02:21:24.120 I mean, Catholicity for us is not one guy over 2532 02:21:24.200 --> 02:21:26.719 in Rome or one place over in Rome, which doesn't 2533 02:21:26.760 --> 02:21:28.959 even make sense in terms of the Roman Catholic idea 2534 02:21:29.120 --> 02:21:33.280 of Catholicity. Catholicity is the fullness of the faith at 2535 02:21:33.399 --> 02:21:36.680 every local church. So there's no super bishop in Rome. 2536 02:21:36.959 --> 02:21:40.000 He doesn't have super sacraments and supergrace that the local 2537 02:21:40.120 --> 02:21:42.959 church doesn't have, and that blows the mind of Roman Catholics. 2538 02:21:45.319 --> 02:21:50.600 Got dropped off. Okay, I'm not taking orthodox FAQs. Please 2539 02:21:50.639 --> 02:21:54.559 don't ask me orthodox FAQ's, and I'm not going to 2540 02:21:54.639 --> 02:21:58.200 go back to people who are trolling. What's up Russian name? 2541 02:22:02.600 --> 02:22:03.680 Hey, j can you hear me? 2542 02:22:06.440 --> 02:22:09.399 I'm an author of Christian from the MOULDI station. Firstly, 2543 02:22:09.399 --> 02:22:11.280 I'd like to thank you for your work, and I 2544 02:22:11.639 --> 02:22:15.440 have a rather quick question regarding Islam. What is his 2545 02:22:15.559 --> 02:22:19.200 stand stands regarding the existence of Muhammad. Do you think 2546 02:22:19.280 --> 02:22:22.319 he was a pagan, northy, heretical or he didn't exist 2547 02:22:22.399 --> 02:22:22.680 at all? 2548 02:22:23.440 --> 02:22:23.719 Thank you. 2549 02:22:24.920 --> 02:22:26.879 I have not looked into this question that people have 2550 02:22:26.959 --> 02:22:30.639 been posing lately about his total non existence, so I 2551 02:22:30.680 --> 02:22:33.959 mean there could be something to that. So far, I've 2552 02:22:34.040 --> 02:22:36.399 just been operating under the assumption that he was a 2553 02:22:37.600 --> 02:22:45.479 pagan gnostic in Nestorian person. Gabriel, he's here to debate Christians. 2554 02:22:46.920 --> 02:22:56.680 Jibril, Hello, yep, hey, hello Jamon. I am Muslim and 2555 02:22:57.399 --> 02:22:59.799 I have a questions. I know you make it this 2556 02:23:00.040 --> 02:23:05.920 sinction between nature and personhood. But my question is that 2557 02:23:06.799 --> 02:23:09.959 wouldn't you even if you distinguish the three persons you 2558 02:23:10.040 --> 02:23:11.280 used to be polytheistic? 2559 02:23:13.120 --> 02:23:16.159 So says two, I mean, are the Asharis polytheistic or 2560 02:23:16.200 --> 02:23:17.360 the Salafi polytistic? 2561 02:23:18.159 --> 02:23:21.200 Well, I just think that if you have three and 2562 02:23:21.479 --> 02:23:23.159 you as you're describing. 2563 02:23:22.799 --> 02:23:24.840 Okay, well what about seven? What about ninety nine? 2564 02:23:27.520 --> 02:23:27.920 That's this? 2565 02:23:28.120 --> 02:23:30.399 Doesn't I don't know what this has to do with 2566 02:23:30.680 --> 02:23:32.520 your justification for the your. 2567 02:23:32.479 --> 02:23:35.239 Position, because you have the same issue in Islam? 2568 02:23:35.399 --> 02:23:38.040 So what do you mean, No, we don't we believe 2569 02:23:38.079 --> 02:23:38.639 in one God? 2570 02:23:39.399 --> 02:23:42.159 What about the Asharis and the Autharis and the Salafis 2571 02:23:42.200 --> 02:23:44.079 and all the debates over the uncreated Kuran and the 2572 02:23:44.120 --> 02:23:46.520 seven attributes and the real distinctions? 2573 02:23:47.399 --> 02:23:49.079 Okay, look I'm not here. Okay. 2574 02:23:49.239 --> 02:23:50.799 Oh yeah. So in other words, I don't want to 2575 02:23:50.840 --> 02:23:52.799 deal with any problems in Islam. I only want to 2576 02:23:52.840 --> 02:23:54.799 act like those problems in the Trinity. 2577 02:23:54.920 --> 02:23:58.200 I can no, I can argue against this, but you're 2578 02:23:58.239 --> 02:24:00.600 not making like you're not. Okay, let me tell you. 2579 02:24:01.079 --> 02:24:02.639 Look, okay. 2580 02:24:06.120 --> 02:24:11.680 To this of forgive me. Okay, so you believe, but 2581 02:24:11.799 --> 02:24:13.600 how does it look? Should I agree that there's debate 2582 02:24:13.760 --> 02:24:14.840 between in Islam. 2583 02:24:15.120 --> 02:24:17.440 No, I'm not even pointing out that there's Look, there's 2584 02:24:17.440 --> 02:24:18.360 debate a much Christians. 2585 02:24:18.399 --> 02:24:18.559 Sure. 2586 02:24:18.600 --> 02:24:20.799 The argument is not that there's a debate. The argument 2587 02:24:20.920 --> 02:24:23.680 is that in your own position you have to account 2588 02:24:23.799 --> 02:24:26.799 for unity and multiplicity in a law. And so you're 2589 02:24:26.879 --> 02:24:29.559 just out of hands saying that my position is false 2590 02:24:29.639 --> 02:24:33.680 because of any multiplicity in God. So why do you 2591 02:24:33.840 --> 02:24:38.040 get a free pass on the shin and the right 2592 02:24:38.120 --> 02:24:39.159 hand and all this stuff. 2593 02:24:39.840 --> 02:24:43.559 Okay, Well, because that's like morphic language. 2594 02:24:43.200 --> 02:24:46.159 That's not what we don't it says too, because even 2595 02:24:46.200 --> 02:24:49.159 the Asharis who say that that's anthropomorphic language also believe 2596 02:24:49.159 --> 02:24:51.200 that there's a real distinction between the attributes. 2597 02:24:54.159 --> 02:24:55.959 Do you do you have fun bullying? 2598 02:24:56.079 --> 02:24:59.399 Like I'm trying to bullying you. I literally brought up 2599 02:24:59.440 --> 02:25:01.440 your aky to and you call that bullying. Don't play 2600 02:25:01.479 --> 02:25:03.280 the victim. You came here to debate, and you gotta 2601 02:25:03.280 --> 02:25:07.280 play victim. You guys are ridiculous. I have good contention, Okay, 2602 02:25:07.319 --> 02:25:10.319 I can prove to you. The Bible's cut upt. Yeah, 2603 02:25:10.399 --> 02:25:12.399 that script doesn't work when you come over here, dude, 2604 02:25:14.399 --> 02:25:17.920 Jennifer plays a victim. I'm here to debate. He says 2605 02:25:18.399 --> 02:25:22.760 his profile says here to debate Christians and Jews. He 2606 02:25:22.879 --> 02:25:26.719 comes on, plays victim and says, I'm bullying him. Give 2607 02:25:26.760 --> 02:25:28.799 me a break, dude, When he knows good and well, 2608 02:25:29.239 --> 02:25:32.520 it's a very It's a totally fair question of why 2609 02:25:32.639 --> 02:25:35.879 do I have to assume that multiplicity in my position 2610 02:25:36.559 --> 02:25:39.280 is some form of polytheism. But when you talk about 2611 02:25:39.280 --> 02:25:42.280 an uncreated Koran next to Allah, when you talk about 2612 02:25:42.319 --> 02:25:44.680 attributes of a law super added to his essence, if 2613 02:25:44.719 --> 02:25:47.319 you're in a Shari like then oh, that's a free 2614 02:25:47.399 --> 02:25:49.760 pass bullying me. 2615 02:25:56.600 --> 02:25:57.440 Hey, can you hear me? 2616 02:25:57.600 --> 02:25:57.799 Yep? 2617 02:25:59.040 --> 02:26:03.959 Hey, So I am a Protestant. I hold to a 2618 02:26:04.200 --> 02:26:07.120 pre millennial view, and I wanted to ask you because 2619 02:26:07.120 --> 02:26:11.680 I know you don't about release in twenty verse three, 2620 02:26:12.559 --> 02:26:16.200 where Satan is taking to the bottomless pit and sealed 2621 02:26:16.440 --> 02:26:19.280 so that he should deceive the nations no more. If 2622 02:26:19.639 --> 02:26:22.760 the millennium is not a future event, what does it 2623 02:26:23.000 --> 02:26:25.520 mean that Satan is sealed that he can no longer 2624 02:26:25.840 --> 02:26:26.920 deceive nations? 2625 02:26:28.079 --> 02:26:32.559 It's an ongoing, present reality because the millennium is identified 2626 02:26:32.639 --> 02:26:34.879 as the kingdom, and the kingdom is what Jesus set 2627 02:26:34.920 --> 02:26:36.879 up at his first advent. That's why this's not a 2628 02:26:36.959 --> 02:26:40.079 literal thousand year millennium anymore than God only owns the 2629 02:26:40.159 --> 02:26:42.959 cattle on one thousand hills and not the cattle on 2630 02:26:43.000 --> 02:26:44.000 the thousand and one hill. 2631 02:26:45.600 --> 02:26:49.079 So I guess that would be assuming that the millennium 2632 02:26:49.440 --> 02:26:51.799 is like the start of the kingdom. In my view, 2633 02:26:52.000 --> 02:26:55.040 the kingdom started of course at the ascension, and then 2634 02:26:55.120 --> 02:26:58.879 the millennium is just a physical representation of that already. 2635 02:26:59.000 --> 02:27:02.520 Yeah, that physical representation is the Church because it says 2636 02:27:02.600 --> 02:27:05.399 that it says that the first resurrection is those who 2637 02:27:05.479 --> 02:27:09.159 are brought into that. That first resurrection is what Jesus 2638 02:27:09.159 --> 02:27:11.639 talks about in John five when he says that you're 2639 02:27:11.760 --> 02:27:14.559 raised in the spirit, and then there's bodily resurrects. So 2640 02:27:14.600 --> 02:27:16.840 the first resurrection is baptism, is what I'm trying to say. 2641 02:27:18.479 --> 02:27:20.600 Okay, okay, it makes sense. 2642 02:27:21.479 --> 02:27:22.760 Do you mean if I ask another question? 2643 02:27:23.040 --> 02:27:23.239 Sure? 2644 02:27:24.760 --> 02:27:24.799 So. 2645 02:27:25.399 --> 02:27:25.760 In the. 2646 02:27:27.319 --> 02:27:29.120 It's called the Christmas Victor model. 2647 02:27:29.200 --> 02:27:34.840 For Orthodox that's the closest approximation to what we would 2648 02:27:34.879 --> 02:27:37.719 say to a Protestant minded person. But there's much more 2649 02:27:37.799 --> 02:27:40.559 than that, because, for example, a Lutheran might be believing 2650 02:27:40.680 --> 02:27:42.920 christas Victor, but he believes that Christ was damned by 2651 02:27:42.959 --> 02:27:44.360 the Father or something that we don't believe any of 2652 02:27:44.399 --> 02:27:47.959 that nonsense for us christas victory, for us christas Victor 2653 02:27:48.040 --> 02:27:51.920 includes that he descended into Hades and is resurrected, and 2654 02:27:52.600 --> 02:27:55.159 and it sins to restore all human nature in the 2655 02:27:55.319 --> 02:27:58.079 entire universe. So there's a cosmic scope to it. There's 2656 02:27:58.120 --> 02:28:00.079 a heroin of Hades, and none of that is in 2657 02:28:00.120 --> 02:28:00.959 any Protestantism. 2658 02:28:02.479 --> 02:28:08.360 Okay, So I guess why would he have to take 2659 02:28:08.399 --> 02:28:12.639 on human nature and experience death in order to defeat death? 2660 02:28:13.760 --> 02:28:16.559 Because death is an angel, it's a demon, and it's 2661 02:28:16.600 --> 02:28:21.200 a kingdom known as Hades. And so when Adam decided 2662 02:28:21.280 --> 02:28:24.879 to leave God, he sort of covenanted with Satan and 2663 02:28:24.959 --> 02:28:27.319 became a member of Satan's kingdom. And so when he dies, 2664 02:28:27.399 --> 02:28:30.239 he goes down into Hades, which the Bible describes in many, 2665 02:28:30.239 --> 02:28:34.159 many passages throughout the Old Testament. Jesus then came, as 2666 02:28:34.200 --> 02:28:36.920 the New Testament says, to have the keys of death 2667 02:28:36.959 --> 02:28:40.159 and Hades to destroy that whole realm, in that whole kingdom. 2668 02:28:42.840 --> 02:28:46.719 Okay, And so would that it had to be the 2669 02:28:46.840 --> 02:28:50.159 physical act of death in order to break the covenant 2670 02:28:50.239 --> 02:28:51.959 and take the keys from that. 2671 02:28:52.600 --> 02:28:56.920 Well, it's when Adam sinned, it affected him spiritually and physically, 2672 02:28:57.360 --> 02:29:01.159 so the restoration required something spiritual and physical, hence the incarnation. 2673 02:29:02.559 --> 02:29:03.600 Okay, that makes sense. 2674 02:29:04.520 --> 02:29:07.079 Yeah, that's all I got for a day at I've 2675 02:29:07.120 --> 02:29:08.239 been looking into Orthodoxy. 2676 02:29:08.360 --> 02:29:11.399 Thanks to you so taking up absolutely, Thank you, Jennifer. 2677 02:29:11.440 --> 02:29:14.520 Appreciate those questions. Those are good questions. Yeah. I remember 2678 02:29:15.159 --> 02:29:18.479 working through primasm myself a long time ago. So I 2679 02:29:18.559 --> 02:29:21.360 understand where you're at a baris. 2680 02:29:28.799 --> 02:29:34.120 Uh hello, hey, hey, I So I had a question. 2681 02:29:35.200 --> 02:29:37.239 I don't want to misrepresent you anything, but. 2682 02:29:39.079 --> 02:29:42.280 Do you believe that like in the literal story about 2683 02:29:42.319 --> 02:29:46.040 them an eve like in the garden, and then it's 2684 02:29:46.120 --> 02:29:46.559 not like. 2685 02:29:49.159 --> 02:29:50.280 Not hypercal but. 2686 02:29:51.840 --> 02:29:56.200 Theoretical or metaphorical agorical. Yes, I believe it's literal. 2687 02:29:56.479 --> 02:30:01.239 Yes, thank you you. Oh, I see. How do you 2688 02:30:01.319 --> 02:30:02.520 rectify things like. 2689 02:30:04.280 --> 02:30:09.600 Like Neanderthal evidence of us having not I'm not I don't. 2690 02:30:09.399 --> 02:30:09.799 Really want to. 2691 02:30:09.840 --> 02:30:13.200 I don't believe in evidence because multiple examples have been 2692 02:30:13.239 --> 02:30:14.840 exposed to be notorious frauds. 2693 02:30:17.040 --> 02:30:17.799 Can you name a few? 2694 02:30:18.399 --> 02:30:22.959 Pelt down man, Nebraska man, right right? 2695 02:30:24.360 --> 02:30:26.959 Do you are you familiar with the genetic evidence that 2696 02:30:27.040 --> 02:30:33.280 we have for Denis Evans, Neanderthals, and modern day populations 2697 02:30:33.440 --> 02:30:38.239 mostly focused in Southeast Asia, South America and Europe exclusively. 2698 02:30:38.559 --> 02:30:42.639 How would genetic evidence prove uh, Neanderthals in Southeast Asia? 2699 02:30:44.440 --> 02:30:48.959 Well, Neanderthal, it would Neanderthals in in Western Europe? 2700 02:30:49.479 --> 02:30:53.479 But okay, would prove how a genetic How a genetic 2701 02:30:53.559 --> 02:30:56.399 information which is like uh, you know, code and information 2702 02:30:56.559 --> 02:31:00.959 for the human species or the animal species. How that proved? Cavemen? 2703 02:31:02.879 --> 02:31:05.879 Well, I don't necessarily use the term cave man, but 2704 02:31:06.040 --> 02:31:09.440 it does. It does paint a picture that there is 2705 02:31:10.159 --> 02:31:13.760 separation in genetics. I mean, we obviously today everybody looks 2706 02:31:13.799 --> 02:31:14.120 the same. 2707 02:31:15.879 --> 02:31:17.200 We've we've a. 2708 02:31:17.239 --> 02:31:20.479 Lot of differents, a lot of different models could explain 2709 02:31:20.520 --> 02:31:23.680 why people look different. How does that prove? Gotic cavemen? 2710 02:31:24.559 --> 02:31:26.840 Can you? Can you list a model that explains why 2711 02:31:26.879 --> 02:31:27.639 people look different? 2712 02:31:27.840 --> 02:31:28.000 Yeah? 2713 02:31:28.120 --> 02:31:28.399 Creation? 2714 02:31:30.600 --> 02:31:30.920 Okay? 2715 02:31:31.040 --> 02:31:33.159 Well, I mean to start off, I mean I am 2716 02:31:33.200 --> 02:31:35.639 a Christian, but I don't believe that science and and 2717 02:31:35.760 --> 02:31:38.959 the creation stories have to be mutually exclusive. I believe 2718 02:31:39.000 --> 02:31:43.280 that God the evolution can be guided by divine hand. 2719 02:31:44.600 --> 02:31:49.159 Okay, so you would be ultimately a heretic because of 2720 02:31:49.479 --> 02:31:53.000 Roman's eight, which says that death in all forms enters 2721 02:31:53.040 --> 02:31:55.399 in through the sin of Adam. So how is there 2722 02:31:55.479 --> 02:31:57.559 millions of years of dead cavemen before Adam? 2723 02:31:58.719 --> 02:32:02.319 Well, see, that's my biggest she was that if let's say, hypothetically, 2724 02:32:02.360 --> 02:32:05.840 if Adam and Eve were the first Homo sapiens, then 2725 02:32:06.079 --> 02:32:09.200 what would that say about man or tas before them 2726 02:32:09.479 --> 02:32:10.719 or an ad mixture? 2727 02:32:10.799 --> 02:32:11.680 Did they not have a soul? 2728 02:32:11.760 --> 02:32:13.319 Well, I mean, let me, let's just put it this way. 2729 02:32:13.360 --> 02:32:15.479 Does Jesus talk in the Gospels as if Adam and 2730 02:32:15.520 --> 02:32:16.600 Eve were historical people? 2731 02:32:18.319 --> 02:32:19.760 Yes, sir, there you go. 2732 02:32:20.479 --> 02:32:21.639 So what does that tell you? 2733 02:32:23.440 --> 02:32:26.399 Well, I mean, I I think that some things can 2734 02:32:26.479 --> 02:32:29.440 be out of oracle and they don't necessarily like. 2735 02:32:29.520 --> 02:32:32.479 All right, So yeah, so Jesus apparently wasn't aware of 2736 02:32:32.600 --> 02:32:37.440 the allegories. And you know better than Jesus. But you 2737 02:32:37.639 --> 02:32:41.239 just you just said that he was not allegorizing because 2738 02:32:41.239 --> 02:32:42.600 he said that they were historical people. 2739 02:32:42.760 --> 02:32:46.879 You just said that, yes, sir, But I think that 2740 02:32:49.959 --> 02:32:52.319 I don't. I don't believe that it has to be. 2741 02:32:54.200 --> 02:32:55.680 I think if I were to. 2742 02:32:55.719 --> 02:32:58.879 Tell a just be honest, Jesus, just be honest, Jesus 2743 02:32:58.920 --> 02:32:59.959 is wrong. Is that your position? 2744 02:33:02.079 --> 02:33:03.399 No, sir, I don't believe he's wrong. 2745 02:33:04.079 --> 02:33:06.559 Well, but you just said, you just said that they're 2746 02:33:06.600 --> 02:33:08.520 not historical people, and Jesus said they were. 2747 02:33:09.639 --> 02:33:13.719 Well, let's say, let's say hypothetically that Jesus was speaking 2748 02:33:13.879 --> 02:33:16.600 allegorical but didn't include. 2749 02:33:16.159 --> 02:33:18.520 That or didn't tell people that that. He didn't really 2750 02:33:18.559 --> 02:33:20.200 have a way of going about explaining. 2751 02:33:20.879 --> 02:33:25.799 Okay, and Denise Evans, do you think do you think 2752 02:33:25.959 --> 02:33:29.479 Romans eight is hypothetical? And Paul says that death entered 2753 02:33:29.479 --> 02:33:34.360 through Adam? All right, excuse me as aligorical. 2754 02:33:36.000 --> 02:33:39.000 No, but I also think that they could that could 2755 02:33:39.040 --> 02:33:41.319 be true even with an evolutionary model. 2756 02:33:43.760 --> 02:33:47.879 If we So, if death enters through Adam, then how 2757 02:33:48.000 --> 02:33:51.079 is it allegorically the case in the evolutionary theistic model. 2758 02:33:51.079 --> 02:33:53.360 Ends on what you would consider Adam. 2759 02:33:53.120 --> 02:33:53.680 I suppose. 2760 02:33:55.239 --> 02:33:58.520 But what I'm asking is in that in in Romans, 2761 02:33:58.879 --> 02:34:01.479 Paul is clearly talking about Adam, the first Adam, the 2762 02:34:01.520 --> 02:34:04.520 guy in Genesis who introduced his death. And then he 2763 02:34:04.600 --> 02:34:07.440 says that Christ is the second atom. So is Christ's 2764 02:34:07.440 --> 02:34:15.079 position as the second atom also an allegory? So now 2765 02:34:15.120 --> 02:34:19.760 you're well that yes, so Christology goes down down the tube. Shane, 2766 02:34:19.840 --> 02:34:28.559 what's up? Conkf be sure to call in. Hey, what's up? 2767 02:34:28.639 --> 02:34:32.159 Man's good to go? Cool. 2768 02:34:32.879 --> 02:34:36.040 So I've got an argument that I just heard from 2769 02:34:36.079 --> 02:34:38.120 Jimmy Aikin a couple of weeks ago. 2770 02:34:38.200 --> 02:34:39.760 I didn't. I didn't know if you've heard it or not. 2771 02:34:39.879 --> 02:34:41.719 The same Jimmy Aikin who says that Arius and the 2772 02:34:41.799 --> 02:34:42.879 Storious we're not heretics. 2773 02:34:44.760 --> 02:34:48.319 Maybe, but did you know he says that, No, I didn't. 2774 02:34:48.399 --> 02:34:50.600 I'd have to check that out. What what did you say? 2775 02:34:50.639 --> 02:34:50.920 He said? 2776 02:34:51.559 --> 02:34:53.879 He says, Arius and Thestorius we're not heretics. 2777 02:34:54.559 --> 02:34:56.559 Arius and the stories. I have to I have to 2778 02:34:56.639 --> 02:34:57.120 look into that. 2779 02:34:57.840 --> 02:35:01.239 But no, this is in regards to the premiacy of Peter. 2780 02:35:01.920 --> 02:35:04.520 So from my understanding, you know, the Orthodox Church of 2781 02:35:04.600 --> 02:35:08.600 firms that there was a you know, a premisey to 2782 02:35:08.799 --> 02:35:12.159 the Patriot Office. And Jimmy Aikin kind of makes an 2783 02:35:12.200 --> 02:35:15.280 argument when it comes to defending the papacy that basically goes, 2784 02:35:15.920 --> 02:35:18.680 you know, who is more likely to misunderstand the function 2785 02:35:18.799 --> 02:35:21.520 of something, the person who possesses it or the people 2786 02:35:21.559 --> 02:35:21.959 who did not. 2787 02:35:23.639 --> 02:35:26.239 And this is a dumb argument. Like so, in other words, 2788 02:35:26.760 --> 02:35:30.120 we have to listen to you guys, even if you 2789 02:35:30.239 --> 02:35:33.159 contradict or appear to contradict because you have the office. 2790 02:35:33.239 --> 02:35:36.000 But that's the thing in question. So the question is 2791 02:35:36.079 --> 02:35:38.159 not primacy of Peter, but what does it mean? 2792 02:35:38.840 --> 02:35:40.520 Right exactly? And that's what I mean. 2793 02:35:40.719 --> 02:35:43.920 His argument is basically, who's more likely to misunderstand what 2794 02:35:44.040 --> 02:35:47.319 it means? You know, whoever possesses it or whoever doesn't. 2795 02:35:47.559 --> 02:35:50.280 But the thing in question is what is the meaning 2796 02:35:50.360 --> 02:35:52.479 of what you possess? Not do you possess it? So 2797 02:35:52.559 --> 02:35:56.399 this is trading on an ambiguity of terminology, right well, I. 2798 02:35:56.440 --> 02:36:00.879 Think even if you accept, you know, this like to 2799 02:36:01.079 --> 02:36:03.399 take out the Vatican one understanding and I understand you 2800 02:36:03.479 --> 02:36:05.760 can't do that to the full extent, but I just 2801 02:36:05.840 --> 02:36:07.399 mean just for those so you can't do that at all? 2802 02:36:07.520 --> 02:36:09.000 What do you mean? Right well? 2803 02:36:09.239 --> 02:36:12.559 I'm saying, like, if we just assume this premiscy, like, 2804 02:36:12.760 --> 02:36:16.680 let's say we accept the Orthodox view of you know 2805 02:36:16.799 --> 02:36:18.200 what the premiacy of Peter is? 2806 02:36:18.959 --> 02:36:20.680 You know, I think you could apply. 2807 02:36:20.479 --> 02:36:20.760 It to that. 2808 02:36:23.479 --> 02:36:25.440 I mean, I don't know what that's supposed to mean. 2809 02:36:25.520 --> 02:36:28.440 But do you are you aware of the Chiad document, 2810 02:36:28.479 --> 02:36:32.840 the Alexandria document. No, okay, how come? I'm not trying 2811 02:36:32.840 --> 02:36:34.360 to be rude to you, like Roman Catholics have not 2812 02:36:34.399 --> 02:36:36.799 read their own documents. I don't understanding because these documents 2813 02:36:36.840 --> 02:36:39.520 say that the Orthodox are basically correct and that it 2814 02:36:39.639 --> 02:36:42.440 evolved and that the Roman bishop didn't have your universal 2815 02:36:42.799 --> 02:36:46.000 jurisdiction in the first millennium. That's a Chad paragraph nineteen. 2816 02:36:46.159 --> 02:36:48.399 I got it on the screen right right, Because so 2817 02:36:48.479 --> 02:36:50.479 how is Roman how's Vatican one trip? That's trip? 2818 02:36:51.799 --> 02:36:55.120 Well, I mean that's where you know, doctrinal and development 2819 02:36:55.159 --> 02:36:55.719 comes into play. 2820 02:36:55.719 --> 02:36:58.719 And I know, well, but the Vatican One, the Vatican 2821 02:36:58.760 --> 02:37:00.280 One says that it was always the case. So how 2822 02:37:00.360 --> 02:37:01.159 is it now a development? 2823 02:37:02.799 --> 02:37:04.920 Well, from my understanding, and you know, I don't have 2824 02:37:05.000 --> 02:37:06.520 the text in front of me, and I'm definitely not 2825 02:37:06.600 --> 02:37:10.200 an expert, but from my understanding, the Vatican One understanding 2826 02:37:10.399 --> 02:37:13.280 is that there is you know, this development. 2827 02:37:13.440 --> 02:37:13.879 No, it's not. 2828 02:37:14.079 --> 02:37:15.639 It doesn't you know. It says that it was always 2829 02:37:15.719 --> 02:37:18.200 understood from the earliest days that that Peter had this role. 2830 02:37:18.559 --> 02:37:26.280 Does not say anything about development. Development is what Newman 2831 02:37:26.440 --> 02:37:28.959 said To try to defend it to the people who said, 2832 02:37:29.239 --> 02:37:31.760 what about all the counter examples in the first thousand years? 2833 02:37:32.079 --> 02:37:34.000 Newman says that, yeah, it's the thing that it's a 2834 02:37:34.040 --> 02:37:37.079 seed that develops into a tree. Yeah, okay, so it 2835 02:37:37.159 --> 02:37:39.319 can't be it can't be something that was always there, 2836 02:37:39.399 --> 02:37:41.840 clear and present, as Vatican won in the other thirteen say, 2837 02:37:42.079 --> 02:37:43.799 and something that was not clear and developed. Those are 2838 02:37:43.879 --> 02:37:45.040 mutually exclusive claims. 2839 02:37:45.760 --> 02:37:45.959 Yeah. 2840 02:37:48.319 --> 02:37:50.639 And by the way, the I mean again eighty and 2841 02:37:51.040 --> 02:37:53.399 Alexandria document from the Vatican admitted developed. 2842 02:37:54.319 --> 02:37:56.440 Right. But I'm sure there's a I'm sure there's a 2843 02:37:56.479 --> 02:37:57.440 Catholic understanding. 2844 02:37:57.559 --> 02:37:57.680 You know. 2845 02:37:57.920 --> 02:37:59.719 The Catholic understanding is that I don't care what she 2846 02:37:59.840 --> 02:38:02.479 Ate and Alexander say because they're not infallible and not 2847 02:38:02.559 --> 02:38:05.440 binding because anytimes it's been a problem, it's not binding. 2848 02:38:06.319 --> 02:38:10.000 Right. But getting back to the question, or do you 2849 02:38:10.079 --> 02:38:12.319 think you know it's just not a legitimate. 2850 02:38:12.600 --> 02:38:16.159 It's a it's trading on ambiguity. So the it's like 2851 02:38:16.559 --> 02:38:20.799 using ambiguity in terms to get you to admit that, well, 2852 02:38:20.840 --> 02:38:23.879 if there was a premiacy, therefore only Rome would have 2853 02:38:23.920 --> 02:38:28.159 perfectly understood it. So it's a classic car salesman bait 2854 02:38:28.200 --> 02:38:32.799 and switch pitch from the Roman Catholics. Uh, cost you, 2855 02:38:33.520 --> 02:38:37.520 I'm not doing FAQs, but good question, appreciate it. So 2856 02:38:37.639 --> 02:38:40.600 the Roman Catholics have been very civil tonight. I enjoy 2857 02:38:40.840 --> 02:38:43.959 that's been enjoyable. They've been the most enjoyable tonight. The 2858 02:38:44.079 --> 02:38:47.719 Muslims and the Mormons and the everybody's been crazy. Cost you. 2859 02:38:49.639 --> 02:38:50.760 Hello, OJ, how do you do? 2860 02:38:51.639 --> 02:38:52.040 What's up? 2861 02:38:52.120 --> 02:38:55.840 Man? What's up? I got a question about TAG. 2862 02:38:57.879 --> 02:39:00.920 Let's say that I just give up any idea about 2863 02:39:02.399 --> 02:39:04.719 you know, order in the universe. 2864 02:39:08.879 --> 02:39:11.440 I don't need TAG to justify it. Therefore, and I 2865 02:39:11.719 --> 02:39:18.399 just based my worldview on observation and statistics. You know, 2866 02:39:18.680 --> 02:39:21.399 the statistics prevent against TAG. 2867 02:39:21.719 --> 02:39:25.479 Statistics would presuppose order, so that wouldn't make any sense. 2868 02:39:27.040 --> 02:39:33.920 Hm hmm. I see what you're saying. I figured you 2869 02:39:33.959 --> 02:39:34.559 were going to say that. 2870 02:39:34.639 --> 02:39:38.520 But I feel like statistics, okay, they use numbers, but 2871 02:39:38.719 --> 02:39:39.520 they're also. 2872 02:39:41.280 --> 02:39:43.159 Yeah, what's the argument. 2873 02:39:43.200 --> 02:39:47.159 I guess like, yeah, statistics requires numbers. 2874 02:39:47.440 --> 02:39:48.879 You can have numbers without order. 2875 02:39:49.680 --> 02:39:55.040 Yeah, I mean order in the universe is necessary to 2876 02:39:55.120 --> 02:39:58.920 have these invariant, immaterial concepts or principles like the number seven, 2877 02:39:59.000 --> 02:39:59.600 the number ten. 2878 02:39:59.760 --> 02:39:59.879 Ye. 2879 02:40:00.559 --> 02:40:04.159 I don't think. I don't saying it's without immaterial. I 2880 02:40:04.239 --> 02:40:08.840 mean conceptual concepts might in the human mind. 2881 02:40:09.840 --> 02:40:13.440 Well, something conceptual by definition is abstract, is not material, 2882 02:40:14.040 --> 02:40:15.879 So if you want to say that concepts are matter, 2883 02:40:16.000 --> 02:40:17.000 that's even worse position. 2884 02:40:18.360 --> 02:40:21.719 No, No, I'm saying there may be immaterial things in 2885 02:40:22.520 --> 02:40:24.280 an unordered, grandom universe. 2886 02:40:25.479 --> 02:40:28.200 Well, then you wouldn't be able to make sentences, because 2887 02:40:28.239 --> 02:40:30.959 sentences require a universe where you can predicate and give 2888 02:40:31.040 --> 02:40:33.879 meaning to objects. That there's a law of identity. How 2889 02:40:34.000 --> 02:40:36.559 is the law of identity possible if there's no order 2890 02:40:36.600 --> 02:40:37.159 in the universe. 2891 02:40:40.200 --> 02:40:43.000 Hmmm, yeah, good points. 2892 02:40:43.120 --> 02:40:50.959 Yeah, linguistic Linguistic philosophy, I'm saying presupposes the ability to predicate, 2893 02:40:51.040 --> 02:40:53.040 on the basis of the law of identity, that you 2894 02:40:53.079 --> 02:40:56.239 can pick out one object as distinct from other objects. 2895 02:40:59.559 --> 02:41:01.280 John Helvin's words, Here we go. 2896 02:41:05.559 --> 02:41:06.120 Can you hear me? 2897 02:41:06.239 --> 02:41:08.920 Jay? Yep, my man, my man. Okay. 2898 02:41:10.239 --> 02:41:15.239 One of my friends recently has been turning towards Eastern Orthodoxy. 2899 02:41:15.280 --> 02:41:17.600 God bless his soul. Shout out to Chris, God bless him. 2900 02:41:18.360 --> 02:41:23.920 But he shot me a picture of the Catechumen it 2901 02:41:24.600 --> 02:41:27.879 and sort of if there are any heresies that one holds, 2902 02:41:28.159 --> 02:41:31.319 they need to be renounced, denounce whatever you may say 2903 02:41:31.319 --> 02:41:34.280 about it. And I saw total depravity is up there, 2904 02:41:34.920 --> 02:41:39.200 and I find myself to be in the reformed tradition, 2905 02:41:39.760 --> 02:41:42.239 and I've been looking at total depravity a lot, so 2906 02:41:42.280 --> 02:41:44.799 I wanted to hear from your perspective why it is 2907 02:41:44.920 --> 02:41:48.879 that total depravity is a heresy and then sort of 2908 02:41:48.959 --> 02:41:51.520 give you a little pushback if I can not too 2909 02:41:51.559 --> 02:41:53.520 affirm necessary in my case, but I do want. 2910 02:41:53.440 --> 02:41:54.319 To hear what you have to say. 2911 02:41:55.440 --> 02:41:59.959 Well, it's heresy from the outset, because typically Calvinists or whoever, 2912 02:42:00.040 --> 02:42:01.559 or when they try to explain this, they end up 2913 02:42:01.600 --> 02:42:05.000 saying that nature is someone inherently evil. God's the creator 2914 02:42:05.079 --> 02:42:07.760 of everything that exists, and he can't create evil. In fact, 2915 02:42:07.799 --> 02:42:10.600 Scripture says he's not the author of evil. So are 2916 02:42:10.639 --> 02:42:13.600 you a Manichean do you think that God creates evil things? 2917 02:42:14.159 --> 02:42:16.040 Or are you a Christian? And that everything that he 2918 02:42:16.200 --> 02:42:17.799 created in Genesis one is good? 2919 02:42:19.559 --> 02:42:23.399 Absolutely believe that everything that he created is good. I 2920 02:42:23.479 --> 02:42:25.360 believe absolutely everything he created is good. 2921 02:42:25.479 --> 02:42:28.000 Okay, so then your nature, your nature can't be evil. 2922 02:42:28.760 --> 02:42:31.799 Yeah, I believe that your nature cannot be evil. However, 2923 02:42:32.520 --> 02:42:35.000 the both of us would I think to come to 2924 02:42:35.159 --> 02:42:37.239 some sort of agreement, Probably not in terms. 2925 02:42:37.079 --> 02:42:40.600 Of linguistics, but in terms of when Adam and Eve 2926 02:42:41.120 --> 02:42:41.920 ate the fruit. 2927 02:42:42.440 --> 02:42:44.760 God said that the day you eat it, you shall 2928 02:42:44.840 --> 02:42:45.520 surely die. 2929 02:42:45.719 --> 02:42:48.200 Yeah, spiritual death. That doesn't mean that doesn't mean that 2930 02:42:48.319 --> 02:42:49.520 their human nature. 2931 02:42:50.159 --> 02:42:52.440 I'm not going with I'm not trying to necessarily say 2932 02:42:52.559 --> 02:42:55.639 hold a totally property view, but I'm just simply trying 2933 02:42:55.680 --> 02:43:00.520 to investigate, how does etern orthodoxy under stay in that 2934 02:43:00.799 --> 02:43:03.399 death and what does it do? What are the what 2935 02:43:03.479 --> 02:43:04.479 are the ramifications? 2936 02:43:04.879 --> 02:43:10.680 Yeah, so, so it means the loss of divine life, 2937 02:43:10.799 --> 02:43:13.079 the life of the Holy Spirit. So the uncreated grace 2938 02:43:13.159 --> 02:43:17.360 of God is lost in Adam's fall, and Adam is 2939 02:43:17.440 --> 02:43:20.440 reduced to a mortal state. So he's mortal, but his 2940 02:43:20.600 --> 02:43:23.120 nature is still good, So he still has human will, 2941 02:43:23.319 --> 02:43:25.639 he still has human nature, human energy, all of those 2942 02:43:25.840 --> 02:43:28.600 things that we call faculties of human nature. And so 2943 02:43:28.680 --> 02:43:31.520 when Christ assumes human nature, that's what he assumes in 2944 02:43:31.680 --> 02:43:34.600 order to heal it, to resurrect it, to deify it. 2945 02:43:35.040 --> 02:43:38.040 So it's never the case that the nature itself becomes evil, 2946 02:43:38.159 --> 02:43:40.440 or that he's always sinning, or that there's such a 2947 02:43:40.520 --> 02:43:42.879 thing as a state of sin. All of those are 2948 02:43:43.000 --> 02:43:46.760 Calvinist Lutheran type positions which are patently false. 2949 02:43:48.479 --> 02:43:50.719 All right, now, let me ask a weird question. But 2950 02:43:51.760 --> 02:43:57.079 so if it's perhaps for any reason, I. 2951 02:43:57.079 --> 02:43:58.520 Don't I don't know how to I don't know how 2952 02:43:58.559 --> 02:44:00.799 to phrase this because I've been I've been hetruggling recently 2953 02:44:00.959 --> 02:44:03.959 with the fact that Calvin didn't hold to the l 2954 02:44:04.360 --> 02:44:08.639 Most Calvinists in general do not hold. They don't sound 2955 02:44:08.719 --> 02:44:12.239 like Calvin when he speaks about the atonement. Calvin's language 2956 02:44:12.360 --> 02:44:18.079 is very universal because one cannot hold to a true perseverance, 2957 02:44:18.159 --> 02:44:20.200 or one cannot hold that your salvation would. 2958 02:44:19.959 --> 02:44:21.639 Truly be secure if you do not believe that. 2959 02:44:21.680 --> 02:44:24.840 Jesus Christ died for the sins of the entire world. 2960 02:44:24.920 --> 02:44:28.920 So Calvin holds that without any debate, and in fact 2961 02:44:29.000 --> 02:44:32.920 he says with with with a lot of fervor, when 2962 02:44:32.959 --> 02:44:35.879 you look at the predestination, what is it? The eternal 2963 02:44:35.920 --> 02:44:38.120 predestination of God? I think that's the name of the book. 2964 02:44:39.840 --> 02:44:42.680 He says there when he's when he's debating with Georgia's 2965 02:44:43.559 --> 02:44:45.520 that he says that there are some there are some 2966 02:44:45.680 --> 02:44:50.239 people who say that, yes, Jesus died for the sins. 2967 02:44:51.479 --> 02:44:52.239 Let me rephrase that. 2968 02:44:53.159 --> 02:44:55.120 Look, I'm not trying. I'm not trying to. I'm not 2969 02:44:55.200 --> 02:44:56.760 We don't have the time right now to go through 2970 02:44:56.840 --> 02:45:01.000 all the Tulip. I've got multiple talks where I walk 2971 02:45:01.120 --> 02:45:02.639 through all of Calvinism. 2972 02:45:03.200 --> 02:45:03.319 Uh. 2973 02:45:03.440 --> 02:45:04.879 You can go to the talk that I did with 2974 02:45:05.120 --> 02:45:07.719 Cootel Church of the Eternal Logos and I go through 2975 02:45:07.760 --> 02:45:09.879 all of Tulip. You can go to my clips channel 2976 02:45:10.159 --> 02:45:12.200 and I have two talks going all the way through Tulip. 2977 02:45:12.520 --> 02:45:13.879 I don't have the time right now to go through 2978 02:45:13.879 --> 02:45:17.639 all of Tulip, but those talks will answer in detail, Uh, 2979 02:45:17.760 --> 02:45:22.000 the issues that you have today. I appreciate the question. 2980 02:45:22.200 --> 02:45:24.360 I'm not trying to be rude to you, but just 2981 02:45:24.440 --> 02:45:26.920 can't do the whole calvin debate right now. Knocta, what's up? 2982 02:45:30.600 --> 02:45:43.200 Knockta gonna, I'm mute, I'm mute. 2983 02:45:44.840 --> 02:45:47.520 I'm here. My apologies for that. Always looking for the microphone, 2984 02:45:47.600 --> 02:45:48.079 the browser. 2985 02:45:48.399 --> 02:45:48.879 It's all good. 2986 02:45:48.920 --> 02:45:53.200 What's up, man, It's a nice being here. 2987 02:45:53.239 --> 02:45:54.879 I've been listening to you for a couple of months, 2988 02:45:54.959 --> 02:45:58.440 to Sam watching a light you two. I'm born and 2989 02:45:58.600 --> 02:46:02.879 raised Protestant. I'm leaving Porto Rico. So the knowledge or 2990 02:46:03.200 --> 02:46:06.840 how the Gospel and the work got here to my 2991 02:46:07.000 --> 02:46:11.600 knowledge was around the nineties sixteen or nineteen hundred and sixteen, 2992 02:46:12.159 --> 02:46:15.520 when that I was a wave of. 2993 02:46:17.120 --> 02:46:21.079 The Word of God. And I'm sorry for my English, 2994 02:46:21.120 --> 02:46:23.600 I'm not too well spoken on that. 2995 02:46:24.399 --> 02:46:28.200 But basically i've been or I was because I was 2996 02:46:28.280 --> 02:46:30.399 out of the church for like eight nine years. 2997 02:46:30.440 --> 02:46:33.120 I came back looking for knowledge. 2998 02:46:33.239 --> 02:46:37.079 The true root of what is following Christ, and I've 2999 02:46:37.120 --> 02:46:43.200 been closer to orthodoxy. Actually, I'm gonna ask a simple question. Basically, 3000 02:46:43.760 --> 02:46:46.920 with everything that I went through, I sing things in 3001 02:46:48.360 --> 02:46:53.799 Protestant churches, God working through it, I live freeing people 3002 02:46:53.879 --> 02:46:57.879 of diseases, demons, and all that I've been seen in. 3003 02:46:57.959 --> 02:47:02.079 Life of people improved through this is i'd say, way 3004 02:47:02.159 --> 02:47:05.559 of saying that Jesus Christ die for us. And basically 3005 02:47:05.639 --> 02:47:07.079 the whole idea is the same. 3006 02:47:07.879 --> 02:47:11.360 We split up on incorrect me if I'm wrong, traditions 3007 02:47:11.440 --> 02:47:15.399 and how from the bottom up it goes, but the 3008 02:47:15.520 --> 02:47:17.719 idea is the same. So if I'm seeing all of 3009 02:47:17.799 --> 02:47:21.239 that God working through people through my mom, if I'm 3010 02:47:21.239 --> 02:47:25.639 gonna and everything of that, how can I put those 3011 02:47:25.879 --> 02:47:26.840 two things together? 3012 02:47:26.959 --> 02:47:29.399 I mean, I appreciate the question. I mean there's no 3013 02:47:30.159 --> 02:47:33.840 I mean, everybody could say that God is working through 3014 02:47:33.879 --> 02:47:37.319 people and God is doing things for people. But obviously, 3015 02:47:37.520 --> 02:47:40.120 since everyone can say that that can't be the thing 3016 02:47:40.719 --> 02:47:43.479 that shows us which is the true church, because everybody 3017 02:47:43.520 --> 02:47:45.840 will claim that or everybody will say that. So the 3018 02:47:45.920 --> 02:47:49.760 only way to solve this is to actually go into 3019 02:47:49.799 --> 02:47:59.360 the theological differences and historical differences. Journalist, you got an 3020 02:47:59.360 --> 02:48:06.920 immute journalist, Connor, do you want to talk? 3021 02:48:10.040 --> 02:48:10.319 You have to? 3022 02:48:10.399 --> 02:48:10.799 I mute. 3023 02:48:12.120 --> 02:48:20.479 I dropped off cunt opinions. I feel like I'm setting 3024 02:48:20.559 --> 02:48:24.920 myself up by going to cunt opinions for a troll, 3025 02:48:25.159 --> 02:48:31.879 So I'm guilty if I get trolled. Go ahead, I mute. 3026 02:48:37.120 --> 02:48:39.000 You have to ummute. Why are you raising your hand. 3027 02:48:43.639 --> 02:48:44.399 Speaking to Meg? 3028 02:48:45.319 --> 02:48:49.719 Yep, sort of literally just joined us to be like 3029 02:48:50.479 --> 02:48:51.520 seven seconds ago. 3030 02:48:52.200 --> 02:48:53.079 Okay, what's on your mind? 3031 02:48:54.959 --> 02:49:00.200 I shoined it because it's is to be Aslam, Atheism, controlimus, 3032 02:49:00.280 --> 02:49:01.920 take one, et cetera, et cetera. 3033 02:49:02.159 --> 02:49:03.040 Sure, what's on your man? 3034 02:49:06.920 --> 02:49:07.719 That's all I mean is. 3035 02:49:08.840 --> 02:49:14.639 I canolstate Christianity Prosonism. It's on the same religion. It 3036 02:49:14.719 --> 02:49:17.959 says a lot of hatred between each of those religions. 3037 02:49:19.840 --> 02:49:23.760 And I'm just wondering if they anybody. 3038 02:49:24.079 --> 02:49:29.000 Sees the differences within these religions and how silly they are. 3039 02:49:30.399 --> 02:49:33.079 It's Hadden of hatred that has caused between each of 3040 02:49:33.120 --> 02:49:33.799 their religions. 3041 02:49:35.319 --> 02:49:38.159 So they're wrong because members of the religions hate each other. 3042 02:49:39.440 --> 02:49:42.040 No, not wrong, not wrong, not at all. 3043 02:49:42.280 --> 02:49:43.040 You said they're silly. 3044 02:49:44.719 --> 02:49:47.200 No, So I live anyway, it's coast to Scotland. 3045 02:49:51.120 --> 02:50:29.440 I'm not there. What you're saying? Yah rah ex ephens, exophens. 3046 02:50:31.719 --> 02:50:41.280 I'm mute, m hm axophans. You have to unmute if 3047 02:50:41.319 --> 02:51:06.680 you wanna talk. M David with a T. David, Hey, 3048 02:51:06.799 --> 02:51:07.200 can you hear me? 3049 02:51:07.319 --> 02:51:09.760 Jack? Uh huh, Hey, how's it going? 3050 02:51:09.840 --> 02:51:14.600 So my question is, so I am Oriental Orthodox and 3051 02:51:14.799 --> 02:51:17.040 I just want to get your opinion on the Oriental 3052 02:51:17.159 --> 02:51:19.920 Church on the north of orthodox side, and why do 3053 02:51:19.920 --> 02:51:24.799 you think the Calcidonian approach is true Orthodoxy given the 3054 02:51:24.920 --> 02:51:28.280 historical context of the church, So when the council was happening, 3055 02:51:28.319 --> 02:51:30.200 for example, historical fact. 3056 02:51:30.719 --> 02:51:33.200 I've done many streams with David Arhun on this. You 3057 02:51:33.360 --> 02:51:35.079 go watch those streams. Do you want to get a 3058 02:51:35.159 --> 02:51:36.879 precise thing? We're not gonna go to all the history. 3059 02:51:36.879 --> 02:51:38.319 That's impossible. So what's given? 3060 02:51:38.479 --> 02:51:39.280 Not the history? 3061 02:51:39.319 --> 02:51:41.360 I just do you just said historical context? 3062 02:51:41.440 --> 02:51:44.280 What do you mean I'm saying the Orientals were not 3063 02:51:44.360 --> 02:51:46.600 even invited to the Caltidonian Council. 3064 02:51:46.760 --> 02:51:50.879 So the Fifth Council is the council that's that's crucial here, 3065 02:51:52.840 --> 02:51:55.920 cract for fifty one. No, the Fifth Council, that's the 3066 02:51:56.000 --> 02:52:01.159 key council, that's the one where the tempted reconciliation with 3067 02:52:01.239 --> 02:52:01.760 you guys is. 3068 02:52:03.959 --> 02:52:07.319 Okay, So you're saying the Orientals did not accept and 3069 02:52:07.799 --> 02:52:10.120 they're not true Orthodox for that reason, some did? 3070 02:52:12.200 --> 02:52:15.959 Which ones all the ones that agreed to the Justinian 3071 02:52:16.360 --> 02:52:20.079 reconciliation and the Fifth Ecumenical Council. Because even today many 3072 02:52:20.120 --> 02:52:23.479 of your guys admit that the Fifth Council teaches the 3073 02:52:23.600 --> 02:52:28.479 correct view of the hypostasis and the subject of Christ. 3074 02:52:28.680 --> 02:52:32.159 But the point of departure tends to be what are 3075 02:52:32.200 --> 02:52:34.719 we going to do with the question of people like severuss. 3076 02:52:34.799 --> 02:52:38.719 So most of you guys, as far as I'm aware, 3077 02:52:38.920 --> 02:52:41.079 tend to say that we agree in the way that 3078 02:52:41.200 --> 02:52:44.639 the Fifth Council presents kurelling Christology. 3079 02:52:46.639 --> 02:52:50.479 And do you think the physicists churches are not true Orthodox? 3080 02:52:51.920 --> 02:52:54.319 Well, like I'm saying, like we are not in communion, 3081 02:52:54.520 --> 02:52:57.520 But you guys agree that the Fifth Council presents it correctly. 3082 02:52:57.639 --> 02:53:01.719 So the issue becomes the people like severus. But no, 3083 02:53:01.840 --> 02:53:03.840 we are not in communion, so we don't consider. 3084 02:53:03.600 --> 02:53:05.879 Your orthodox Okay, appreciate it. 3085 02:53:06.120 --> 02:53:08.440 Yeah, good questions. I mean I've got longer We've got 3086 02:53:08.479 --> 02:53:10.239 longer streams with David Orhan and all that. If you 3087 02:53:10.280 --> 02:53:14.239 want to go check those out, Uh exists exta Fins. 3088 02:53:14.280 --> 02:53:19.799 You want to try again, it's open for him. If 3089 02:53:19.799 --> 02:53:21.719 you want to call in uh, you can do so 3090 02:53:21.920 --> 02:53:27.799 through the call in uh Twitter space right here. I'm 3091 02:53:27.799 --> 02:53:29.920 gonna have to go T T and little girls room 3092 02:53:29.959 --> 02:53:33.200 here in a minute. But I'm still I'm still here. 3093 02:53:33.559 --> 02:53:39.920 I'm still staying. No, no exa Fins. We have to 3094 02:53:40.040 --> 02:53:40.280 um you. 3095 02:53:42.399 --> 02:53:45.159 Hello, Hello, can you hear me? 3096 02:53:48.600 --> 02:53:48.639 So? 3097 02:53:48.840 --> 02:53:50.040 I have a quick question. 3098 02:53:51.799 --> 02:53:55.280 What's the proper response to the platonic youth for the lemma? 3099 02:53:55.879 --> 02:53:57.120 Is it like a first lemma? 3100 02:53:57.200 --> 02:53:57.520 Or is it? 3101 02:53:59.600 --> 02:54:01.559 Yeah, it's a false dilemment. We've covered that a lot 3102 02:54:01.639 --> 02:54:04.760 in the old old live streams. I'm sorry, I just 3103 02:54:04.840 --> 02:54:06.680 have the energy to go through all that. Do you 3104 02:54:06.760 --> 02:54:08.600 want to try again and not sing at me? Do 3105 02:54:08.600 --> 02:54:10.079 you want to make an argument? Or you gonna sing 3106 02:54:10.120 --> 02:54:10.719 Arabic at me? 3107 02:54:19.719 --> 02:54:19.959 Hello? 3108 02:54:20.239 --> 02:54:24.760 Everybody? I tried to speak Arabic earlier. I'm just trying 3109 02:54:24.840 --> 02:54:28.479 to bring up Palestine into the debat, but. 3110 02:54:29.120 --> 02:54:30.520 Has nothing to do with the topics. 3111 02:54:31.520 --> 02:54:34.399 I guess Arabic was it wasn't invented back. 3112 02:54:37.159 --> 02:54:37.360 Eric. 3113 02:54:43.680 --> 02:54:55.719 Yeah, you're cutting out man, people in the chat bitching. 3114 02:54:55.840 --> 02:54:57.719 I make I make jokes. Dude, if you can't handle it, 3115 02:54:57.760 --> 02:54:59.600 don't come on? Where do you make fun of his voice? 3116 02:55:00.239 --> 02:55:00.920 You mean? 3117 02:55:04.280 --> 02:55:07.079 Go ahead, just a question if you're there. 3118 02:55:08.399 --> 02:55:11.200 The attribute of God? Is it God in itself? 3119 02:55:12.760 --> 02:55:15.959 The Orthodox view their energies, So they're not his essence, 3120 02:55:16.000 --> 02:55:19.680 they're his actions, but. 3121 02:55:19.799 --> 02:55:20.879 It is it is God? 3122 02:55:21.200 --> 02:55:24.399 Or is it God is fully present in his actions? Yes, 3123 02:55:24.600 --> 02:55:26.319 so they're not different than God. 3124 02:55:26.360 --> 02:55:29.799 But that is That is the Orthodox perspective. 3125 02:55:30.079 --> 02:55:33.040 What about Islamic perspective on that? 3126 02:55:33.840 --> 02:55:36.360 They've got all kinds of schools about the relationship of 3127 02:55:36.440 --> 02:55:42.280 all that to his attributes sit they have all kinds 3128 02:55:42.280 --> 02:55:48.760 of schools and positions. So it depends on whether you're 3129 02:55:48.799 --> 02:55:53.879 talking to AUTHORI a Shari Muturidi. They're all over the place. Sorry, 3130 02:55:53.920 --> 02:55:56.079 you're you're cutting out, man, I can't you there's no uh, 3131 02:55:56.840 --> 02:56:00.479 not a good signal here? Say that? 3132 02:56:00.559 --> 02:56:00.920 What's up? 3133 02:56:10.520 --> 02:56:12.280 I'm mute? You don't have to while you're raising your hand. 3134 02:56:14.559 --> 02:56:17.799 Yeah, okay, what I'm a own language figure. 3135 02:56:18.159 --> 02:56:21.799 So are you calling from a toilet? What's up? 3136 02:56:21.879 --> 02:56:22.000 Man? 3137 02:56:22.959 --> 02:56:23.000 No? 3138 02:56:23.879 --> 02:56:28.239 Oh no, this is my figure. Can you give me better? 3139 02:56:28.920 --> 02:56:30.680 Or should I shut down? 3140 02:56:31.000 --> 02:56:33.079 Are you calling me from six feet under the grave? 3141 02:56:33.239 --> 02:56:33.600 What's up? 3142 02:56:33.680 --> 02:56:33.799 Man? 3143 02:56:33.840 --> 02:56:34.319 I can't hear you? 3144 02:56:35.159 --> 02:56:36.559 Great? Great, the grave? 3145 02:56:37.680 --> 02:56:39.200 Yeah, they took this down from here. 3146 02:56:39.520 --> 02:56:40.239 What's on your mind? 3147 02:56:41.399 --> 02:56:41.600 Oh? 3148 02:56:45.040 --> 02:56:45.879 Can you get him better? 3149 02:56:46.040 --> 02:56:46.159 Now? 3150 02:56:46.479 --> 02:56:47.559 Yes, sir? What's on your mind? 3151 02:56:48.719 --> 02:56:49.159 All right? 3152 02:56:49.239 --> 02:56:49.559 All right? 3153 02:56:49.920 --> 02:56:52.840 What's on my mind? That's an injuring space. 3154 02:56:53.000 --> 02:56:57.079 I see Islam, Athis, Catholic, Protestantsagnostic, Mormons. 3155 02:56:57.879 --> 02:56:59.000 I don't see scientos. 3156 02:57:01.040 --> 02:57:04.159 Well, there's there's limits, there's limited spaces up there. 3157 02:57:04.280 --> 02:57:09.959 So okay, well I'm independent though I have no affiliation 3158 02:57:10.200 --> 02:57:11.680 with the fucking church. 3159 02:57:13.280 --> 02:57:16.120 So I want you to take part in the discussion. 3160 02:57:16.239 --> 02:57:17.680 Some people are laughing. I like that. 3161 02:57:19.280 --> 02:57:23.120 As as an independent, as an India. Okay, if I 3162 02:57:23.159 --> 02:57:25.200 can fat, if. 3163 02:57:25.120 --> 02:57:28.959 I can fit. As I understand. 3164 02:57:29.040 --> 02:57:33.760 The space is about, you know, cosmic stuff and the 3165 02:57:34.159 --> 02:57:35.959 religions like that. 3166 02:57:36.479 --> 02:57:41.159 It is about all of this bullshet bro. Yes, what 3167 02:57:41.360 --> 02:57:44.760 is on your mind? What does your buh? 3168 02:57:45.120 --> 02:57:46.920 Why are you talking like in Pakistani. 3169 02:57:47.079 --> 02:57:49.120 I am trying to talk to you to vibe with 3170 02:57:49.239 --> 02:57:49.600 your brother. 3171 02:57:50.559 --> 02:57:54.479 Oh no, my is my accent so Pakistan? 3172 02:57:54.600 --> 02:57:58.760 Okay, bro, I don't you were from India, not Pakistan by. 3173 02:57:58.760 --> 02:57:59.680 India, right right? 3174 02:58:00.319 --> 02:58:04.079 Okay, I'm trying to do the American accent being a Greek. 3175 02:58:03.879 --> 02:58:05.559 And I am trying to talk to you in your 3176 02:58:05.639 --> 02:58:06.719 own native tongue. 3177 02:58:07.479 --> 02:58:10.479 Yes, okay, they took the stones from here. 3178 02:58:11.920 --> 02:58:14.360 Well my tongue, My tongue is an ancient tongue. 3179 02:58:14.559 --> 02:58:18.440 My friend is a Greek tongue. It told the world. 3180 02:58:19.520 --> 02:58:26.520 But now I'm intervening here. Maybe maybe your listeners. 3181 02:58:26.040 --> 02:58:30.639 Are are you Greek or are you Pakistani or Indian? 3182 02:58:31.239 --> 02:58:32.879 Greek? Oh? Greek? 3183 02:58:32.959 --> 02:58:34.879 I'm Greek, full full bloody Greek. 3184 02:58:35.159 --> 02:58:37.639 Well will you sound a straight up Hindu over here? 3185 02:58:38.440 --> 02:58:38.639 Yeah? 3186 02:58:38.719 --> 02:58:43.879 Okay, Well I wanted to intervene and interject like a 3187 02:58:43.959 --> 02:58:46.959 little bit of scientology or has got. 3188 02:58:46.799 --> 02:58:50.440 A patrolling there? No way, you're a Greek scientologist? 3189 02:58:50.520 --> 02:58:52.280 Come on, yes, yes I am. 3190 02:58:52.600 --> 02:58:52.840 I am. 3191 02:58:53.760 --> 02:58:56.639 Wait a minute, so all the religions are bullshit, but 3192 02:58:56.879 --> 02:58:59.639 like space staatee and alien ship is real? 3193 02:58:59.719 --> 02:59:00.959 Come on, Oh, you. 3194 02:59:02.719 --> 02:59:10.719 You're trolling to get that is the most Indian Greek, dude, 3195 02:59:10.719 --> 02:59:18.200 I've ever heard in my life. Noah, everyone hubberd doers 3196 02:59:18.280 --> 02:59:19.200 did grouse from me? 3197 02:59:20.799 --> 02:59:21.680 Are you from Greece? 3198 02:59:21.719 --> 02:59:21.959 Brother? 3199 02:59:22.639 --> 02:59:26.479 They took their stones from here? Noah, I'm you? 3200 02:59:29.079 --> 02:59:34.440 Can you mean awesome? I just have a question. I 3201 02:59:34.559 --> 02:59:36.000 was wondering because. 3202 02:59:35.719 --> 02:59:38.600 I've been getting into trying to study ecclesiology across the 3203 02:59:38.719 --> 02:59:39.840 denominational lines. 3204 02:59:39.879 --> 02:59:41.719 A little bit would last little while. 3205 02:59:42.239 --> 02:59:47.239 How does the what is the Orthodox conception of the church, 3206 02:59:48.520 --> 02:59:51.440 and how does that relate to its claim to being one? 3207 02:59:52.079 --> 02:59:54.319 Okay, so I said multiple times, I'm not doing f 3208 02:59:54.399 --> 02:59:57.680 a q tonight. Tonight is debate. So what do you 3209 02:59:57.760 --> 02:59:59.559 mean the Orthodox Church is to claim to be the 3210 02:59:59.639 --> 03:00:02.360 one Church? Not trying to be rude, just saying its 3211 03:00:02.479 --> 03:00:04.120 claim is that it's the one true church. It's not 3212 03:00:04.719 --> 03:00:07.239 faq tonight. So if you're calling in to be faq, 3213 03:00:07.559 --> 03:00:09.959 please don't do it. Valantine Claudi, you. 3214 03:00:17.799 --> 03:00:22.559 Hi, Jacob bless your brother's I'm going to lease the 3215 03:00:22.680 --> 03:00:25.840 rth bus and I had to pay with a growman 3216 03:00:25.920 --> 03:00:29.040 Catholic and you're very knowledge bog the boys think so. 3217 03:00:29.159 --> 03:00:31.799 He said that in the first dozen years the church, 3218 03:00:32.600 --> 03:00:34.479 nobody called the Church Orthodox. 3219 03:00:34.559 --> 03:00:36.959 It was always Catholic and the name comes after kiss. 3220 03:00:37.520 --> 03:00:38.639 What's your argument against it? 3221 03:00:39.920 --> 03:00:43.280 The stupidest argument I've heard in about two years, because 3222 03:00:44.200 --> 03:00:47.120 the name itself does not tell you that it's the 3223 03:00:47.239 --> 03:00:50.319 papist church. I mean, that's so stupid. Like we call 3224 03:00:50.399 --> 03:00:53.280 it the Orthodox Catholic Church. The idea that because the 3225 03:00:53.399 --> 03:00:56.200 church fathers called it the Catholic Church, that that means 3226 03:00:56.319 --> 03:01:00.319 papacy is literally like get some new friends. That's all 3227 03:01:00.360 --> 03:01:02.440 I gotta say on no one, Dave, what's up? Dave? 3228 03:01:03.440 --> 03:01:06.959 For having fun tonight open forum debate. Please don't ask 3229 03:01:07.040 --> 03:01:09.879 me the FAQ's and the catechumen questions. That's not what 3230 03:01:09.920 --> 03:01:14.559 we're doing tonight. I want more Greek Hindu scientologists, That's 3231 03:01:14.600 --> 03:01:15.040 what I want. 3232 03:01:17.840 --> 03:01:23.799 Hey, last question, when you did your debate with Trent Horne, 3233 03:01:24.040 --> 03:01:25.799 and he asked the question of. 3234 03:01:27.280 --> 03:01:30.280 Was there any kind of y'all's debate on natural theology? 3235 03:01:30.559 --> 03:01:34.520 When was there any ecumenical council that condemned. 3236 03:01:36.360 --> 03:01:39.959 Natural theology or the tomistic idea of natural theology? 3237 03:01:40.000 --> 03:01:42.239 And you, if I remember. 3238 03:01:42.000 --> 03:01:44.239 Correctly, you said the Seventh Ecumenical Council. 3239 03:01:44.719 --> 03:01:47.600 I said, my extension, the idea would be condemned. Obviously 3240 03:01:47.639 --> 03:01:50.159 it's not going to condemn Thomas Aquinas since its centuries 3241 03:01:50.200 --> 03:01:53.000 before his existence. But yeah, the reason I said that 3242 03:01:53.120 --> 03:01:57.959 is that the iconographic theology of the Church would implicitly 3243 03:01:58.120 --> 03:02:01.200 be a rejection of the idea that nature can be 3244 03:02:01.479 --> 03:02:05.600 understood without reference to divine revelation through pure reasoning and 3245 03:02:05.639 --> 03:02:08.879 all this kind of nonsense, because for us, nature and 3246 03:02:09.319 --> 03:02:11.639 the creative world is that they often it's a christophany, 3247 03:02:12.079 --> 03:02:14.200 and that's foreign to the mind of the Roman cals. 3248 03:02:15.079 --> 03:02:16.559 Okay, all right, thank you. 3249 03:02:16.799 --> 03:02:19.120 Yeah, that's what I was referring to. Obviously, I wasn't saying. 3250 03:02:19.239 --> 03:02:22.840 I'm not saying you're saying this, but some Roman calliy. 3251 03:02:22.760 --> 03:02:24.399 Oh he's so, he's so stupid. 3252 03:02:24.479 --> 03:02:31.639 He thinks that they condemned to Thomas Glory existed. No, bro, 3253 03:02:31.760 --> 03:02:36.399 get out of here. We're trying to bring great Orthodox scientology. 3254 03:02:36.479 --> 03:02:50.719 Come on, man, Richard Bruno, Jordano Bruno, what's up? Yep? Richard? 3255 03:02:51.680 --> 03:02:56.239 Oh as you do? Hey, I just have a question 3256 03:02:56.680 --> 03:03:00.680 about evolution, and I know you don't even evolution. 3257 03:03:01.399 --> 03:03:03.159 And I saw this argument that you were having with 3258 03:03:03.239 --> 03:03:06.600 this lady and she was talking about the archaeological evidence. 3259 03:03:07.200 --> 03:03:10.920 But why didn't you accept that? I understand that she 3260 03:03:11.040 --> 03:03:13.600 was like quoting some scholars that she didn't understand. She 3261 03:03:13.680 --> 03:03:16.879 didn't she wasn't able to recall them. But why is 3262 03:03:16.959 --> 03:03:19.120 it that that wasn't a good argument. 3263 03:03:20.040 --> 03:03:22.319 I don't even remember what you're referring to. But can 3264 03:03:22.399 --> 03:03:26.200 you rephrase like what she was saying or kind of 3265 03:03:27.040 --> 03:03:29.959 rehearse like what what it was? I mean, it's not 3266 03:03:30.000 --> 03:03:32.600 a good argument, by the way, too. I mean my 3267 03:03:32.719 --> 03:03:35.200 first thought was she was probably just citing scholars, and 3268 03:03:35.280 --> 03:03:36.920 I'm like, why is that? Why am I supposed to 3269 03:03:37.000 --> 03:03:41.079 just accept random scholars or academics. I'm very skeptical about 3270 03:03:41.159 --> 03:03:44.799 academics and claims of any academics because I've been in 3271 03:03:45.000 --> 03:03:46.879 the world of academia. I know what it's like. And 3272 03:03:46.959 --> 03:03:48.639 by the way, if you think I'm an idiot, that 3273 03:03:48.920 --> 03:03:51.959 also disproves academia because I'm actually a peer review published 3274 03:03:51.959 --> 03:03:56.239 in academia, so that that itself disproves peer review. 3275 03:03:58.799 --> 03:04:02.239 I see. Okay, yeah, I mean that's basically what it was. Yeah, 3276 03:04:02.319 --> 03:04:04.799 that she would bring up scholars. 3277 03:04:05.000 --> 03:04:07.120 Okay, well, then I'll cite all the scholars who disagree, 3278 03:04:07.200 --> 03:04:07.639 So now what. 3279 03:04:09.280 --> 03:04:14.200 That's a good point actually, Okay. 3280 03:04:14.000 --> 03:04:17.040 Wow, so scholars are like, you know that they can be. 3281 03:04:18.280 --> 03:04:19.879 It's kind of like a courtroom if you think about 3282 03:04:19.879 --> 03:04:23.520 a courtroom, and you know in the courtroom they'll bring 3283 03:04:23.639 --> 03:04:28.520 in expert witnesses or expert testimony, and then the expert 3284 03:04:28.600 --> 03:04:32.079 comes in and says, it is my expert opinion that 3285 03:04:32.399 --> 03:04:36.639 Jeffrey Dahmer had to have conducted these murders because of 3286 03:04:36.760 --> 03:04:40.319 the genetic evidence and because of his profile. And then 3287 03:04:40.600 --> 03:04:44.120 the jury says, this is an expert, and he gives 3288 03:04:44.159 --> 03:04:46.840 a good testimony as to why it must be the case. Now, 3289 03:04:47.360 --> 03:04:52.959 does that necessarily prove that he did it on its own? 3290 03:04:53.600 --> 03:04:59.200 Not necessarily, so it's an evidence, but strict analytic or 3291 03:04:59.479 --> 03:05:05.799 logical or whatever proof. No one scholar's attestation to something 3292 03:05:06.319 --> 03:05:09.479 in this domain unless it's something that's about like an 3293 03:05:09.680 --> 03:05:14.760 actual argument or proof that's like logical that could That's 3294 03:05:14.799 --> 03:05:16.479 like the only time I can think we're an expert 3295 03:05:16.600 --> 03:05:20.399 is right when it's like an expert math argument and 3296 03:05:20.520 --> 03:05:23.760 the expert shows that his argument is objectively the case. Okay, 3297 03:05:23.959 --> 03:05:26.479 and that's in that case, but it's not true because 3298 03:05:26.479 --> 03:05:29.120 it's from an expert. That's the fells this authority fil 3299 03:05:29.159 --> 03:05:35.360 appealed authority fallacy. So testimony of experts can be evidences, 3300 03:05:35.440 --> 03:05:39.639 they can be attestations, but they're not proofs. But you 3301 03:05:39.719 --> 03:05:42.680 got so many low tier atheist people or Reddit people 3302 03:05:43.079 --> 03:05:46.319 remember t Jump, Remember when we were debating. He's like, well, 3303 03:05:46.639 --> 03:05:49.840 the majority of the science men say this, so it's true. 3304 03:05:50.559 --> 03:05:52.159 And I'm like, you actually think that it's true because 3305 03:05:52.200 --> 03:05:54.319 the majority of science, Like he'd say, yes, that's what 3306 03:05:54.440 --> 03:05:58.600 makes something true. That's so stupid these you are. It's cult. 3307 03:05:58.680 --> 03:06:02.440 If you have a disagreement, that's what we're doing tonight. Disagreements. 3308 03:06:02.520 --> 03:06:06.079 Please don't ask me the FAQ's. 3309 03:06:09.719 --> 03:06:13.040 Hello, yop, Sorry, that might be. 3310 03:06:13.040 --> 03:06:14.959 A ridiculous question, might not be worth your time. 3311 03:06:15.000 --> 03:06:17.719 But because it might seem a little eye but I've 3312 03:06:17.760 --> 03:06:19.520 been trying to do a lot of research on what 3313 03:06:19.639 --> 03:06:23.360 the Church fathers thought on the biblical canon, and something 3314 03:06:23.399 --> 03:06:27.159 a lot of Protestants point to is Letter thirty nine 3315 03:06:27.399 --> 03:06:31.319 or from Saint Affinatius, where interestingly enough is canon is 3316 03:06:31.399 --> 03:06:33.040 closer to the Protestant with the. 3317 03:06:33.040 --> 03:06:37.239 Exception that's well, that's the New Testament, and he's got 3318 03:06:37.319 --> 03:06:39.280 Old Testament books that are not the Protestant canon. 3319 03:06:40.799 --> 03:06:42.799 Yeah, well you just don't explain. 3320 03:06:42.879 --> 03:06:46.000 So he lists the Old Testament canon first, and then 3321 03:06:46.040 --> 03:06:48.360 he lists the New Testament, and then interestingly enough, at 3322 03:06:48.399 --> 03:06:51.879 the end he lists some of the Jutero canonical books. 3323 03:06:52.200 --> 03:06:54.959 But what I find particularly strange is I don't know 3324 03:06:55.040 --> 03:06:57.360 why he puts the Judo can in a separate section 3325 03:06:57.440 --> 03:06:59.079 when he cites them all throughout his works. 3326 03:06:59.120 --> 03:07:03.079 I don't quite get that, because oftentimes it's been classed 3327 03:07:03.239 --> 03:07:07.200 as second canon, so works that are not as important, 3328 03:07:07.799 --> 03:07:11.159 and even the Orthodox Church like Roman Catholics and people, 3329 03:07:11.159 --> 03:07:14.879 they love to cite the Catechism of Metropolitan Filaret because 3330 03:07:14.879 --> 03:07:17.799 when he lists the canon, he lists what is the 3331 03:07:17.959 --> 03:07:22.760 non deuterocanonical list, and then like two questions down he says, 3332 03:07:23.079 --> 03:07:26.000 and we also hold to the dudocanonical books. So they've 3333 03:07:26.040 --> 03:07:29.319 always been classed as second canon. But that doesn't mean 3334 03:07:29.360 --> 03:07:30.840 that they're not part of the canon, because they're a 3335 03:07:30.840 --> 03:07:33.799 separate class. So it's just's like a Protestant thing where 3336 03:07:33.840 --> 03:07:36.399 they do this. But by the way, like, if you're 3337 03:07:36.440 --> 03:07:38.879 a Protestant, why are we supposed to follow Anthonatius like 3338 03:07:39.399 --> 03:07:39.879 says who. 3339 03:07:42.559 --> 03:07:43.159 If you don't mind? 3340 03:07:43.239 --> 03:07:45.319 On top of that, and as a protest of myself, 3341 03:07:45.319 --> 03:07:46.680 I got to be honest with you, this ain't a 3342 03:07:46.760 --> 03:07:47.559 fun thing to admit. 3343 03:07:47.639 --> 03:07:50.639 But another one they go to is sinks Thrill of Jerusalem. 3344 03:07:51.040 --> 03:07:53.879 But if they actually read the whole passage, he doesn't 3345 03:07:53.879 --> 03:07:54.719 include Revelation. 3346 03:07:54.959 --> 03:08:00.200 I don't, yeah, exactly, because there's hotly disputed books that 3347 03:08:01.239 --> 03:08:04.040 take a long time centuries for the church all over 3348 03:08:04.159 --> 03:08:07.760 to except so obviously the church is not operating on 3349 03:08:07.840 --> 03:08:11.079 solid scriptura for those centuries. James White admits that the 3350 03:08:11.159 --> 03:08:13.440 Church wasn't operating on solo scripture in those centuries and 3351 03:08:13.520 --> 03:08:16.399 his debate with Trent Horne, so thank you exactly. So 3352 03:08:16.479 --> 03:08:19.840 therefore solo scriptura is not the ancient church's position. 3353 03:08:20.680 --> 03:08:22.159 Oh yeah, it's just one last thing. 3354 03:08:22.239 --> 03:08:25.479 Sorry, It's just that I was reading some Saint Augustin. 3355 03:08:25.120 --> 03:08:26.840 And my account might be off. 3356 03:08:26.879 --> 03:08:28.520 But in the City of God, I think he quotes 3357 03:08:28.559 --> 03:08:31.399 the Dudo of Canon roughly forty eight comes and again, 3358 03:08:31.520 --> 03:08:33.719 like you know, reform to Bros and Lutherans, they love 3359 03:08:33.760 --> 03:08:36.000 aughust him, but they don't like his canon. And I 3360 03:08:36.159 --> 03:08:38.079 just think that's kind of arbitrary, like how did you 3361 03:08:38.079 --> 03:08:39.920 get original Sin right and the Trinity right? 3362 03:08:40.000 --> 03:08:41.200 But he got the canon wrong? 3363 03:08:42.239 --> 03:08:47.040 Well again, in the Protestant position, it's completely arbitrary as 3364 03:08:47.079 --> 03:08:49.399 to why we're supposed to pick this or that church 3365 03:08:49.479 --> 03:08:53.600 father's canon. And if you're a consistent Protestant or a 3366 03:08:53.639 --> 03:08:57.520 Classical Reformation Protestant, all those people don't have the Gospel 3367 03:08:57.520 --> 03:08:59.799 anyway because they taught salvation by works and they didn't 3368 03:08:59.799 --> 03:09:01.799 believe been sola fe day. So why are we listening 3369 03:09:01.799 --> 03:09:03.559 to all these heretics about where the cannon comes from? 3370 03:09:03.639 --> 03:09:05.760 It's just all the whole position is stupid. But thank 3371 03:09:05.799 --> 03:09:08.159 you for the questions. I appreciate that, and I plugged 3372 03:09:08.639 --> 03:09:13.200 your investigation on those topics. It's open debate. So it 3373 03:09:13.239 --> 03:09:16.440 looks like we've whittled down to three people who always 3374 03:09:16.680 --> 03:09:18.959 ask theological questions. I'm not mad, I'm not fussing at 3375 03:09:19.000 --> 03:09:21.799 you guys, but tonight is for people who disagree. And 3376 03:09:21.840 --> 03:09:23.399 no matter how many times I say that, you guys 3377 03:09:23.399 --> 03:09:26.559 will then ask me a orthodox I f AQ question. 3378 03:09:27.479 --> 03:09:29.760 Does anybody disagree? You go to the head of the line. 3379 03:09:31.680 --> 03:09:33.920 It's only been three hours. I thought that this prominent 3380 03:09:33.959 --> 03:09:37.239 Roman Catholic dy was gonna come where's he Let's see 3381 03:09:37.280 --> 03:09:41.840 if he replied he said, I'll pop in three hours ago, 3382 03:09:43.159 --> 03:09:47.440 I'm gonna tell him to come hurry up, Come on, dude. Uh, 3383 03:09:57.040 --> 03:10:02.719 somebody said, is this your U bitcoin lightning address? No, 3384 03:10:02.879 --> 03:10:08.719 this is just the regular native segue. Uh, it's not 3385 03:10:08.879 --> 03:10:35.600 the lightning address. Anybody else? All right, Well I don't 3386 03:10:35.600 --> 03:10:37.760 see anybody else here. We go, Jayhawk? What's up in? 3387 03:10:48.760 --> 03:10:50.399 Yeah? I disagree with. 3388 03:10:53.000 --> 03:10:56.200 Your stance on pride being a godly attribute. 3389 03:10:57.920 --> 03:10:58.719 What are you talking about? 3390 03:10:59.760 --> 03:11:00.520 What that? I say that? 3391 03:11:01.559 --> 03:11:04.319 The tone, the prideful tone in your voice. 3392 03:11:04.680 --> 03:11:05.920 Well, you sound pride right now. 3393 03:11:07.639 --> 03:11:08.879 Well I never. 3394 03:11:10.440 --> 03:11:15.760 Claimed I wasn't, but o, So pride's okay for you? 3395 03:11:15.920 --> 03:11:16.319 Enough for me? 3396 03:11:17.079 --> 03:11:18.879 No, it's both. It's bad for both of us. 3397 03:11:20.000 --> 03:11:21.799 Okay, Well, then take the mode out of your own eye? 3398 03:11:21.840 --> 03:11:22.559 What are you talking about? 3399 03:11:27.760 --> 03:11:27.959 Okay? 3400 03:11:28.000 --> 03:11:29.399 Are you trolling or I don't understand? 3401 03:11:31.559 --> 03:11:33.479 Well, you just sound a bit prideful, that's all. 3402 03:11:33.719 --> 03:11:36.799 Okay. Do you have an argument? 3403 03:11:40.239 --> 03:11:41.360 Be more humble? 3404 03:11:42.559 --> 03:11:59.479 Okay, that's really pious, man, raw race, you gotta mute. 3405 03:12:00.760 --> 03:12:05.120 Okay. Sorry. So I'm Orthodox and I have two questions. 3406 03:12:05.159 --> 03:12:08.159 I hope I'm not doing a questions man, I'm not 3407 03:12:08.280 --> 03:12:16.680 doing that. Catholics cargus. Look where people who disagree. 3408 03:12:18.120 --> 03:12:20.559 Hey, I don't disagree, but I'm an Orthodox in choir. 3409 03:12:20.680 --> 03:12:22.879 And this guy asked me, is it seems kind of 3410 03:12:22.879 --> 03:12:25.719 like a dumb question, but he said, if God is 3411 03:12:26.040 --> 03:12:29.760 fully uncreated then and he's like transcendent, then how. 3412 03:12:29.719 --> 03:12:33.440 Does he interact with us if we are created? Essentially 3413 03:12:33.479 --> 03:12:34.440 Maybe it's just a dumb question. 3414 03:12:35.120 --> 03:12:37.200 That's the purpose of the essence center the distinction. It's 3415 03:12:37.200 --> 03:12:39.399 a good question. And if you read read letter two 3416 03:12:39.479 --> 03:12:44.840 thirty four of Basil and he addresses that very question. Oh, 3417 03:12:45.360 --> 03:12:52.559 let's uh, here'll tell us more about your humility. You 3418 03:12:52.680 --> 03:12:58.120 have to unmute, Jayhawk. You have to unmute. 3419 03:13:02.239 --> 03:13:05.319 Uh. I you were cutting out so I didn't even 3420 03:13:05.319 --> 03:13:05.920 hear what you said. 3421 03:13:06.440 --> 03:13:11.479 Sorry, well, you requested to come back, so please enlighten 3422 03:13:11.600 --> 03:13:12.600 us about your virtue. 3423 03:13:13.920 --> 03:13:17.000 Oh I did. Oh my mistake. I didn't mean to 3424 03:13:17.239 --> 03:13:18.239 request to come back. 3425 03:13:18.639 --> 03:13:40.280 Okay, casey, hey Jay, can you hear me? 3426 03:13:41.200 --> 03:13:42.399 It's an annoying question to ask. 3427 03:13:42.760 --> 03:13:46.280 Ask anyway, Okay, quick question, Thanks for having me on again. 3428 03:13:46.360 --> 03:13:55.239 Though, when can we say, uh that the Orientals were. 3429 03:13:55.360 --> 03:13:57.479 Officially out of communion? 3430 03:13:57.680 --> 03:14:00.799 And it's it's kind of just a question that connects to. 3431 03:14:01.920 --> 03:14:05.079 Tonight, right, So tonight I said, we're doing debate, so 3432 03:14:05.120 --> 03:14:08.079 it's people who disagree, So please don't ask me the 3433 03:14:08.479 --> 03:14:10.520 orthodox I f AQ questions. I'm not mad at you. 3434 03:14:10.559 --> 03:14:21.319 I'm just saying it's for people who disagree. Cody clearest talent, Okay, 3435 03:14:21.399 --> 03:14:23.239 here's my claim. If you believe the witness of the 3436 03:14:23.319 --> 03:14:25.680 resurrection is enough to believe in the resurrection. I never 3437 03:14:25.840 --> 03:14:30.680 argued that evidentialism, so it has nothing to do with 3438 03:14:30.760 --> 03:14:34.079 your terrible Book of Mormon argument. DC would work at 3439 03:14:34.079 --> 03:14:35.959 three dollars, Thank you so much, William Die. Three dollars. 3440 03:14:36.399 --> 03:14:41.239 What's the refutation of Darwinism of ninety percent being identical 3441 03:14:41.280 --> 03:14:45.920 to apes and DNA? Well, I mean that small percentage 3442 03:14:45.920 --> 03:14:48.840 of difference is very close. For example, we're very close 3443 03:14:48.920 --> 03:14:51.719 to lizards, and I'm pretty sure there's a pretty big 3444 03:14:51.760 --> 03:14:54.360 difference between us and a lizard, even if it's only 3445 03:14:54.360 --> 03:14:57.920 a three percent difference. Anonymous, five dollars. What's the best 3446 03:14:58.040 --> 03:15:02.360 argument against two god gospel heresy? I don't know what 3447 03:15:02.520 --> 03:15:04.680 you mean, like dual covenant theology. I don't know what 3448 03:15:04.760 --> 03:15:11.639 two gospel heresy is. If you believe in solar scriptura, Uh, well, 3449 03:15:11.680 --> 03:15:16.719 I would just argue the canon. But the two gospel heresy. 3450 03:15:19.879 --> 03:15:23.600 You know, in the first hour I was giving arguments 3451 03:15:23.639 --> 03:15:27.920 about the continuity of the scriptures, So these people believe 3452 03:15:27.959 --> 03:15:30.799 that Paul taught a different gospel to the Gentiles. Paul 3453 03:15:30.840 --> 03:15:33.399 appeals in the Gospel of Relatis to being the same 3454 03:15:33.479 --> 03:15:36.479 gospel taught in the Old Testament. Jesus says, Abraham believed 3455 03:15:36.479 --> 03:15:39.319 in him, so the idea that there's two gospels is ridiculous. 3456 03:15:41.479 --> 03:15:44.000 Paul says, all of the covenants are yay in him 3457 03:15:44.040 --> 03:15:48.159 to the Corinthians. Cook's MC seven, your pink shirt is 3458 03:15:48.239 --> 03:15:51.360 on fire. Why are you mean he's joking? I appreciate that. 3459 03:15:51.520 --> 03:15:54.399 Spikes Begel seven three three zero. Can you list material 3460 03:15:54.479 --> 03:15:58.399 refuting dispensationalism. I mean, we did a four hour live 3461 03:15:58.479 --> 03:16:01.200 stream with Jimbob on that I need to get these 3462 03:16:01.280 --> 03:16:04.239 arguments together against evangelicals. Go to Jimbob's stream and watch 3463 03:16:04.559 --> 03:16:08.639 me and Posh dissecting it for four hours. Hypatios five dollars. 3464 03:16:09.159 --> 03:16:12.520 Thank you for calling Mormonism a cult. That guy needed 3465 03:16:12.520 --> 03:16:15.920 to hear that it is a cult. I'm sure there's 3466 03:16:15.959 --> 03:16:20.079 many well meaning people, so I'm not saying that I 3467 03:16:20.360 --> 03:16:23.760 hate you or something like that, but it is clearly 3468 03:16:23.879 --> 03:16:27.719 some it's a I mean, I mean, if you believe 3469 03:16:27.799 --> 03:16:31.600 that the wacky tales of all of the Mormon stuff. 3470 03:16:31.639 --> 03:16:37.559 I mean, Lucas ten dollars is the Western right heretical. 3471 03:16:38.120 --> 03:16:40.639 It's not the right that's heretical. It's that many people 3472 03:16:40.760 --> 03:16:42.719 want to bring in all the Roman Catholic doctrines that 3473 03:16:42.760 --> 03:16:47.280 are heretical. Mark ten Dollars, I know Arabic some I'm 3474 03:16:47.360 --> 03:16:53.639 convinced Mohammed was some spiritual title that was given. It 3475 03:16:53.799 --> 03:16:59.680 is rendered in MHMD and without vowels. Yeah, okay, I 3476 03:16:59.719 --> 03:17:03.399 don't have any position on that. Maybe that's true. It 3477 03:17:03.520 --> 03:17:07.399 is a title like Christ. Yeah, I know people are 3478 03:17:07.479 --> 03:17:10.399 arguing this. I don't know enough about this position to argue, 3479 03:17:10.399 --> 03:17:12.239 and I think it's I mean, it's like trying to 3480 03:17:12.319 --> 03:17:17.040 argue I disprove Jesus as a historical person. Let's just 3481 03:17:17.200 --> 03:17:19.639 argue the text itself and then, I mean, that's an easier, 3482 03:17:20.159 --> 03:17:23.799 more accessible, clear contradiction between what the Koran says and 3483 03:17:24.000 --> 03:17:27.159 previous revelation. That's the easiest argument. I mean, if you 3484 03:17:27.239 --> 03:17:29.319 try to go into these historical I'm going to disprove 3485 03:17:29.399 --> 03:17:31.639 the existence of Muhammed, You're just going to be spitting 3486 03:17:31.719 --> 03:17:36.040 scholars back and forth to infinity. Christen ten Dollars, thank 3487 03:17:36.079 --> 03:17:39.760 you for continued slang opposition. Thank you, CHRISTI appreciate that. Cody, 3488 03:17:39.799 --> 03:17:40.120 what's up? 3489 03:17:40.159 --> 03:17:43.959 Man? What's up? Jake? Can you hear me? 3490 03:17:44.399 --> 03:17:46.040 Huh? Do you have a disagreement or debate? 3491 03:17:47.799 --> 03:17:50.159 Yeah? I wanted to bring up, like the Mormon point 3492 03:17:50.159 --> 03:17:51.879 of view and just I wanted to like get. 3493 03:17:51.760 --> 03:17:53.799 Some some thoughts from you, not saying that I want 3494 03:17:53.840 --> 03:17:55.879 to like, actually, I'm not saying I believe that. 3495 03:17:55.959 --> 03:17:57.600 But I'm just saying, like, I just want to represent 3496 03:17:57.680 --> 03:17:58.280 it for an argument. 3497 03:17:59.239 --> 03:18:01.159 Yeah, Mormon friends or something. 3498 03:18:02.360 --> 03:18:04.440 I have a history of being in Utah, so I 3499 03:18:04.600 --> 03:18:06.760 like whenever I was out there, I kind of got 3500 03:18:06.799 --> 03:18:07.799 brought in back into. 3501 03:18:07.680 --> 03:18:10.200 Christianity just from being interested in what Mormonism was. 3502 03:18:10.399 --> 03:18:12.920 Okay, but Mormonism isn't Christianity. Do you understand that or 3503 03:18:12.920 --> 03:18:13.479 do you think it is. 3504 03:18:15.520 --> 03:18:17.879 I don't think that it's Christianity, knowing what I know now, 3505 03:18:18.200 --> 03:18:19.000 but I used to think. 3506 03:18:19.079 --> 03:18:20.520 I used to think it was, like you know, because 3507 03:18:20.520 --> 03:18:23.079 they kind of tricked you almost they put like Jesus 3508 03:18:23.200 --> 03:18:25.040 Christ on really big bold letters. 3509 03:18:26.319 --> 03:18:28.639 Well, I mean that just shows that the terminology is 3510 03:18:28.719 --> 03:18:30.639 what is not what mattered to what it means. 3511 03:18:32.879 --> 03:18:35.559 Yes, that's true. What do you think about. But what 3512 03:18:35.639 --> 03:18:38.040 do you think about Joseph Smith and what he saw? 3513 03:18:39.479 --> 03:18:42.040 I mean, I think Joe Smith was a notorious con man. 3514 03:18:42.079 --> 03:18:42.520 What do you mean? 3515 03:18:44.120 --> 03:18:46.280 Okay, I got you. 3516 03:18:47.239 --> 03:18:50.719 I mean he obviously cribbed all of the temple rituals 3517 03:18:50.719 --> 03:18:57.959 from Freemasonry. Yeah, what do you What do you mean? Yeah, 3518 03:18:58.239 --> 03:19:02.159 you didn't know that. I'm not being I'm not being 3519 03:19:02.200 --> 03:19:04.760 a bothole. I'm saying like, had you not heard that before? 3520 03:19:05.399 --> 03:19:06.239 I've heard that before. 3521 03:19:06.719 --> 03:19:08.319 Do you think it's true or you haven't looked into it? 3522 03:19:09.639 --> 03:19:12.200 I'm not a Mormon. No, I don't believe that. I'm sorry, 3523 03:19:12.280 --> 03:19:16.840 I know that that. Yeah, I agree with you, bro. 3524 03:19:18.000 --> 03:19:21.959 Okay, So I mean if he's cribbing the temple rituals 3525 03:19:22.000 --> 03:19:24.639 from Freemasonry, I mean that's kind of from the outset, 3526 03:19:24.760 --> 03:19:27.959 tells me that this is like not a legitimate religion. 3527 03:19:29.760 --> 03:19:31.840 Yeah exactly. But what do you think about all the 3528 03:19:31.879 --> 03:19:34.559 prophets that came afterwards? I claimed to have visions from God? 3529 03:19:35.559 --> 03:19:38.120 Are you trolling? I mean, how would that prove? Why 3530 03:19:38.159 --> 03:19:39.559 would that prove Moism? 3531 03:19:39.680 --> 03:19:42.319 No? No, Jay, am I bad. I'm not trying to troll. 3532 03:19:42.360 --> 03:19:44.719 I'm just bringing up point of views that Mormon people 3533 03:19:44.799 --> 03:19:46.079 bring up to me, and I just want to hear 3534 03:19:46.159 --> 03:19:47.040 what you have to say about that. 3535 03:19:47.840 --> 03:19:50.799 Well, I mean, I mean, there's a million conment in 3536 03:19:50.840 --> 03:19:52.559 the world that claim to have visions from God. So 3537 03:19:52.920 --> 03:19:54.200 how would that prove Mormonism? 3538 03:19:56.600 --> 03:19:58.719 I gotcha, And you just got to practice discern man. 3539 03:19:58.840 --> 03:20:01.559 I guess well, I mean, I think there's going to 3540 03:20:01.600 --> 03:20:05.040 be obvious indicators and that it's not true. One of 3541 03:20:05.079 --> 03:20:07.239 those would be Well, let's just go with the simple 3542 03:20:07.879 --> 03:20:12.159 biblical argument, like there are no profits, as we argued 3543 03:20:12.200 --> 03:20:14.920 to the Mormon earlier on. And if that's the case, 3544 03:20:15.000 --> 03:20:18.760 as we saw Luke sixteen sixteen, the prophets were until 3545 03:20:18.879 --> 03:20:23.000 John Oh, then there's no office of Old Testament prophet anymore, 3546 03:20:23.879 --> 03:20:25.799 as Hebrews one says, he has spoken to us in 3547 03:20:25.879 --> 03:20:29.120 these last days by his son. Formerly he spoke to 3548 03:20:29.200 --> 03:20:33.120 us through the prophets again Hebrews one, Luke sixteen sixteen, 3549 03:20:33.360 --> 03:20:35.600 there's no new prophets. The faith was once for all 3550 03:20:35.639 --> 03:20:39.239 delivered to the saints Jude three Epicurus. So we had 3551 03:20:39.239 --> 03:20:58.559 an ancient philosopher joining us. What's up, Epicurus? Nope, yeah, yeah, 3552 03:21:00.079 --> 03:21:09.840 I'm mute. Hello Hello, yes, sir, hello hello Hello, No 3553 03:21:17.760 --> 03:21:21.719 sound bro you can't hear me. So again, Beloved, while 3554 03:21:21.719 --> 03:21:23.559 I was with you, our found it necessary to write, 3555 03:21:23.600 --> 03:21:26.280 very deligent, to write you concerning our commonsalvation, necessary to 3556 03:21:26.440 --> 03:21:29.479 write to you exhorting you to content our honesty for 3557 03:21:29.520 --> 03:21:32.000 the faith. Once were all delivered to the Saints, not 3558 03:21:32.120 --> 03:21:34.360 once we're all delivered to the Latter day Saints. Once 3559 03:21:34.399 --> 03:21:37.000 we're all delivered to the Saints. So if it was 3560 03:21:37.040 --> 03:21:39.120 once we're all delivered at this time in the days 3561 03:21:39.120 --> 03:21:43.200 of the Apostles, then it's not an ongoing thing. Once 3562 03:21:43.239 --> 03:21:46.280 for all, there's no new faiths, there's no new profits. 3563 03:21:46.920 --> 03:21:48.879 The law and the profits were until John and you 3564 03:21:49.000 --> 03:21:51.479 heard the Mormon have the melt down. When we actually 3565 03:21:51.559 --> 03:21:52.600 went to that text. 3566 03:21:52.719 --> 03:21:54.920 You're making that up. There is no text. 3567 03:21:55.399 --> 03:21:56.200 You're making that up. 3568 03:21:56.239 --> 03:21:56.920 It does not say that. 3569 03:21:57.200 --> 03:21:59.200 And then when we read it, you were added to 3570 03:21:59.319 --> 03:22:02.440 the text. When I literally just read the text. 3571 03:22:04.959 --> 03:22:18.200 Gabriel, Gabriel Gabriel, h uh huh, question. 3572 03:22:18.639 --> 03:22:23.159 Uh of a Catholic theology. 3573 03:22:24.600 --> 03:22:30.159 So okay, the Catholics, I believe, when it comes to 3574 03:22:30.280 --> 03:22:37.280 the nature of God, they see, they deny, they deny. 3575 03:22:37.239 --> 03:22:44.280 The essence uh energy, essence distinction. Okay, So when it 3576 03:22:44.319 --> 03:22:45.280 comes to the Eucharist. 3577 03:22:45.440 --> 03:22:52.879 Therefore, if they think, when it comes to transubstantiation that 3578 03:22:53.959 --> 03:22:57.120 that is God in his absolute essence, that all. 3579 03:22:57.000 --> 03:22:57.559 Bows my mind. 3580 03:22:57.600 --> 03:22:59.120 How do I respond to this, because to me, that 3581 03:22:59.399 --> 03:23:02.360 would be the equivalent of saying that God as he 3582 03:23:02.559 --> 03:23:04.760 is and his absoluteness outside of Kevin's basement. 3583 03:23:05.719 --> 03:23:08.559 I know they they do not say that it's the essence. 3584 03:23:08.639 --> 03:23:11.280 They don't know what it is. And they'll say, uh, 3585 03:23:11.479 --> 03:23:13.959 it's a well I take that back. They will agree 3586 03:23:13.959 --> 03:23:16.040 with us that nobody knows what God's essence is and 3587 03:23:16.159 --> 03:23:18.920 that we don't eat that. But then they say it 3588 03:23:19.040 --> 03:23:21.840 is a created grace that you're partaking of, So you're 3589 03:23:21.840 --> 03:23:27.120 eating a creature. So which is a contradiction because God 3590 03:23:27.239 --> 03:23:29.799 isn't a creature. There's no uncreated God. I mean, there's 3591 03:23:29.840 --> 03:23:31.000 no created God. 3592 03:23:33.120 --> 03:23:33.600 Okay. 3593 03:23:34.200 --> 03:23:38.239 Have you ever read the Catholic dogmatic theology of a 3594 03:23:38.399 --> 03:23:43.360 Joseph Pole or try to pronounce I have not. Oh, okay, 3595 03:23:44.120 --> 03:23:46.680 he's one of the only kind, like theoligin of seen. 3596 03:23:46.879 --> 03:23:49.200 Have the book on the Attributes of God. Now when 3597 03:23:49.239 --> 03:23:51.079 it goes to say it and I don't put it 3598 03:23:51.159 --> 03:23:52.840 with me, actually have it in my kindle. I can 3599 03:23:52.879 --> 03:23:53.280 look it up. 3600 03:23:53.360 --> 03:23:57.600 But it's Uh, this is the point that confuses me 3601 03:23:57.840 --> 03:24:03.040 because okay, so they for them to deny essence, energy's 3602 03:24:03.120 --> 03:24:07.360 distinction and for the creative grace, I just I don't 3603 03:24:07.440 --> 03:24:09.879 understand this creative grace stuff because I can't in them. 3604 03:24:10.440 --> 03:24:14.280 It's because they have a presupposition about divine simplicity and 3605 03:24:14.600 --> 03:24:18.680 they can't admit that you're partaking of an energy. So 3606 03:24:19.239 --> 03:24:21.159 and it's not the essence, so it has to be 3607 03:24:21.319 --> 03:24:23.879 a created grace. And Aught says that dogmatically. 3608 03:24:26.159 --> 03:24:28.680 Okay, so that Lily, God would be the guy to 3609 03:24:28.799 --> 03:24:31.040 see how they define created goods. 3610 03:24:31.760 --> 03:24:34.159 Yes, it's a created substance. It's going to be created 3611 03:24:34.239 --> 03:24:37.840 accident in the soul. And by extension, the Council of 3612 03:24:37.879 --> 03:24:41.680 Trent says that what you are given in baptism is 3613 03:24:41.760 --> 03:24:44.799 the righteousness, not that God has, but that He makes 3614 03:24:44.879 --> 03:24:49.159 you righteous with which is a creature. So God is 3615 03:24:49.319 --> 03:24:54.040 creating a supernatural accident in the soul. That's the grace 3616 03:24:54.120 --> 03:24:57.120 that you get. And presumably the uchris would be the 3617 03:24:57.159 --> 03:25:01.399 same thing. That's dogmatic that's in Aught gives you about 3618 03:25:01.440 --> 03:25:03.360 five propositions as to what grace. 3619 03:25:03.239 --> 03:25:09.440 Is, and the term accident is an Aristotelian. 3620 03:25:09.280 --> 03:25:13.520 Right, but it's specified in Aught. He gives multiple propositions. 3621 03:25:14.000 --> 03:25:16.280 One of the propositions is that it is not God, 3622 03:25:16.520 --> 03:25:19.760 it is not his uncreated life. It is a created 3623 03:25:20.680 --> 03:25:26.000 thing in the soul, an accident in the soul. Okay, 3624 03:25:27.079 --> 03:25:29.239 so this is how silly. Their position is correct? 3625 03:25:30.680 --> 03:25:30.840 Right? 3626 03:25:31.680 --> 03:25:35.959 So, and the major contention would be that by believing this, 3627 03:25:36.680 --> 03:25:40.079 this interrupts a life of giosis. 3628 03:25:40.680 --> 03:25:45.479 Well it's not theosis, yeah, it's it's another creature, Kalama says. 3629 03:25:45.600 --> 03:25:48.559 And when he's debating about this very point, he says, 3630 03:25:48.600 --> 03:25:51.120 how can another If arianism is wrong because a creature 3631 03:25:51.159 --> 03:25:53.879 can't save you, then created grace is wrong because it's 3632 03:25:53.920 --> 03:25:58.079 just another creature trying to save you. Please make us humble, Bro, 3633 03:25:58.440 --> 03:26:10.200 you're back. You have to mute. Why do you keep 3634 03:26:10.280 --> 03:26:11.879 coming back? If you just want to talk about how 3635 03:26:12.239 --> 03:26:12.799 humble you are? 3636 03:26:14.719 --> 03:26:16.280 Don't make stuff up. 3637 03:26:16.799 --> 03:26:19.079 I have a question, though, how am I making stuff up? 3638 03:26:21.799 --> 03:26:22.840 Did you say how holy? 3639 03:26:22.959 --> 03:26:26.879 I was humble? What humble? 3640 03:26:27.879 --> 03:26:29.120 Oh? You said holy? No? 3641 03:26:29.200 --> 03:26:33.000 But I have an honest question, and I'm asking, well, 3642 03:26:33.239 --> 03:26:35.959 well before that, I got a two questions, but let 3643 03:26:36.000 --> 03:26:36.479 me just ask this. 3644 03:26:36.600 --> 03:26:39.680 Other one is what's the difference between. 3645 03:26:40.920 --> 03:26:43.280 Prophesizing and being a prophet. 3646 03:26:44.079 --> 03:26:51.479 Well, prophesizing isn't a word, so that's one difference, okay. 3647 03:26:54.079 --> 03:27:01.840 And then also what exactly do you expect the debate 3648 03:27:02.399 --> 03:27:03.000 to be about? 3649 03:27:04.000 --> 03:27:06.079 They can be about any of the topics listed in 3650 03:27:06.200 --> 03:27:08.719 giant bold print in front of your eyes. 3651 03:27:11.520 --> 03:27:18.319 So, like, can you give some examples of debates. 3652 03:27:19.719 --> 03:27:26.000 Any topic relating to Islam, Atheism, rom Catholicism, Protestantism, gnostic, Mormon, 3653 03:27:26.120 --> 03:27:29.600 Toe's witness, literally the things listed in giant bold in 3654 03:27:29.639 --> 03:27:30.239 front of your eyes. 3655 03:27:31.040 --> 03:27:34.760 It's just funny because it sends all that versus you correct, 3656 03:27:37.399 --> 03:27:39.719 like like you're holier than thou. 3657 03:27:40.319 --> 03:27:42.440 It's just it's a funny title. 3658 03:27:42.959 --> 03:27:45.319 Why would that make me holier than now? Because I'm 3659 03:27:45.360 --> 03:27:48.159 doing debates? Earlier? You said debates make you arrogant, So 3660 03:27:49.120 --> 03:27:50.639 wouldn't it make me more arrogant than them? 3661 03:27:52.360 --> 03:27:55.799 Said that said it was the tone, and I used 3662 03:27:55.799 --> 03:27:56.760 the word pride. 3663 03:27:56.479 --> 03:27:59.920 Not arrogant, So tell me the difference between pride and air. 3664 03:28:03.079 --> 03:28:07.000 I think arrogance is more of a modern word. So okay, 3665 03:28:07.239 --> 03:28:09.639 but yeah, they're very similar, but I don't know if 3666 03:28:09.680 --> 03:28:10.440 they'd be exact. 3667 03:28:11.200 --> 03:28:16.399 So, so prophesizing is prophesizing, Well, you're a linguistic scholar. 3668 03:28:16.479 --> 03:28:18.479 You should have known prophesizing asn't a word. 3669 03:28:20.959 --> 03:28:23.360 Why are you being sarcastic because. 3670 03:28:23.079 --> 03:28:25.280 I'm always sarcastic as part of the stick. 3671 03:28:26.760 --> 03:28:26.799 A. 3672 03:28:29.479 --> 03:28:32.879 Yeah, you never heard of this. You're the linguistic scholar. 3673 03:28:32.959 --> 03:28:35.040 You're gonna tell me the origin of pride and arrogance? 3674 03:28:35.520 --> 03:28:36.639 You don't know the word stick is. 3675 03:28:37.840 --> 03:28:40.319 That doesn't mean I'm a linguistic scholar. 3676 03:28:40.520 --> 03:28:42.799 No, you said that the word arrogance is a more 3677 03:28:43.079 --> 03:28:45.360 modern term versus pride, and I mean. 3678 03:28:46.239 --> 03:28:49.399 No, I'm I am one to admit my ignorance. 3679 03:28:50.239 --> 03:28:52.479 Well, it sounds like this sounds like virtues, like you're 3680 03:28:52.520 --> 03:28:55.079 piety signaling. So you originally came here to talk. 3681 03:28:54.920 --> 03:28:58.639 About how what you're talking about. 3682 03:28:59.600 --> 03:29:02.319 But no, the first thing you said, Boomer, was that 3683 03:29:02.600 --> 03:29:04.360 I was prideful and you were humble. 3684 03:29:06.079 --> 03:29:08.440 I never said that. But let's just get off that 3685 03:29:08.600 --> 03:29:09.159 for a second. 3686 03:29:09.200 --> 03:29:15.000 But no, it's more seriously about the whole profit prophesizing. 3687 03:29:15.360 --> 03:29:16.159 Word that's something. 3688 03:29:16.520 --> 03:29:17.120 Okay, so. 3689 03:29:18.680 --> 03:29:21.280 It's called it's not prophesiesing. 3690 03:29:21.840 --> 03:29:27.040 Okay, well you know, okay, Well what's the difference not 3691 03:29:27.840 --> 03:29:36.639 a word? Well, the word that you said, yeah, yeah, 3692 03:29:36.719 --> 03:29:38.399 Well I'm just being honest. 3693 03:29:38.200 --> 03:29:38.840 Like I don't know. 3694 03:29:39.079 --> 03:29:43.479 That's okay, that's fine, go ahead, go ahead. 3695 03:29:45.920 --> 03:29:48.879 I said, yeah, what's the difference. 3696 03:29:49.360 --> 03:29:51.959 Between the office of a prophet in the Old Testament 3697 03:29:52.040 --> 03:29:54.680 sense of like giving new divine revelations or somebody who 3698 03:29:54.760 --> 03:29:58.600 speaks like as a preacher preaching against the generation's evil 3699 03:29:58.680 --> 03:30:00.399 or something like that. I mean, what I I'm saying 3700 03:30:00.520 --> 03:30:03.959 is that in the context of earlier in the debate tonight, 3701 03:30:04.040 --> 03:30:05.920 before you got here, we had a Mormon who was 3702 03:30:06.000 --> 03:30:08.440 saying that Joseph Smith is a new prophet, so he 3703 03:30:08.520 --> 03:30:11.639 gave new revelations. And one of the easy ways to 3704 03:30:11.840 --> 03:30:14.280 just cut that off right away is to say, no, 3705 03:30:14.559 --> 03:30:18.079 the New Testament teaches that when the Messiah comes, there 3706 03:30:18.159 --> 03:30:21.280 is an end to the Old Testament office of a prophet, 3707 03:30:21.360 --> 03:30:24.959 and that's why Jesus says that John was the last 3708 03:30:25.000 --> 03:30:25.559 of the prophets. 3709 03:30:26.680 --> 03:30:28.200 But it's still possible to. 3710 03:30:30.600 --> 03:30:32.360 Well, not in the sense, not in the sense of 3711 03:30:32.360 --> 03:30:36.920 there being new divine public revelations. So the when Paul 3712 03:30:36.959 --> 03:30:39.680 says in Galatians one that there's no new Gospel and 3713 03:30:39.719 --> 03:30:41.280 no new revelations, it's it's finished. 3714 03:30:43.520 --> 03:30:47.120 But as far as any type of like prediction, it's 3715 03:30:47.159 --> 03:30:50.680 all like like nostradamins for example, that's all. 3716 03:30:50.840 --> 03:30:54.719 That's all just fake yes, fake endgay, fake endgay. 3717 03:30:55.559 --> 03:30:57.440 Yeah, all right. 3718 03:30:57.520 --> 03:31:00.319 I just I just wanted to hear it spoken words. 3719 03:31:00.399 --> 03:31:02.799 I mean, and that's what I figured in my mind. 3720 03:31:03.079 --> 03:31:04.479 I just wanted to hear someone. 3721 03:31:04.319 --> 03:31:06.840 Else say it. So thanks, Yeah, I agree with you. 3722 03:31:11.920 --> 03:31:16.520 It's open for him to debate tonight if you disagree. Sam, 3723 03:31:16.600 --> 03:31:18.520 what's up? I thought this Roe mcllay did was going 3724 03:31:18.559 --> 03:31:20.239 to come. He's like a journalist or something. Where's he 3725 03:31:20.520 --> 03:31:23.559 Let's see. I guess he's not gonna come. 3726 03:31:28.760 --> 03:31:29.120 What's up? 3727 03:31:29.200 --> 03:31:29.440 Sam? 3728 03:31:30.559 --> 03:31:31.040 How's it going? 3729 03:31:31.200 --> 03:31:31.360 Jay? 3730 03:31:31.559 --> 03:31:35.440 A big fan recently got into your stuff from the 3731 03:31:36.559 --> 03:31:38.239 the debate you had with the Fresh and Fit. 3732 03:31:39.360 --> 03:31:41.040 I just wanted to ask a question. 3733 03:31:42.760 --> 03:31:47.799 Let's say someone's getting new into Islamic apologics apologetics. What 3734 03:31:47.959 --> 03:31:51.680 are some books they recommend or some videos they recommend 3735 03:31:52.600 --> 03:31:53.799 for someone looking. 3736 03:31:53.600 --> 03:31:57.680 Into the topic become Orthodox. Don't worry about trying to 3737 03:31:57.760 --> 03:32:00.719 become an anti Islamic apologist, because there's no point in 3738 03:32:00.799 --> 03:32:02.879 doing apologetics if you're not going to be in the 3739 03:32:03.000 --> 03:32:09.319 Orthodox Church. Okay, I mean, I'm not trying. I'm not 3740 03:32:09.360 --> 03:32:12.479 trying to be rude. I'm just being straight up, being honest. Zachariah, 3741 03:32:12.520 --> 03:32:14.879 what's up? A good question, man, I appreciate it. Welcome, 3742 03:32:14.959 --> 03:32:21.559 glad to have you over here. David says, for five dollars, 3743 03:32:21.680 --> 03:32:25.079 praise to Yakub he has created us. Wait a minute, 3744 03:32:25.079 --> 03:32:28.159 I thought Yakub created us to be with the devils, 3745 03:32:28.200 --> 03:32:30.479 aren't we? So I'm not going to praise Yakub for 3746 03:32:30.559 --> 03:32:32.680 making me a double So I don't know about that, David, 3747 03:32:33.120 --> 03:32:35.159 Jake Burne, it's one dollar? Are we only saying the 3748 03:32:35.200 --> 03:32:38.760 Lord's prayer? Because to pray like this is to not 3749 03:32:39.280 --> 03:32:43.360 go babbling like pagans When I pray my morning prayer 3750 03:32:43.440 --> 03:32:48.440 it seems like babbling. Well, Jesus himself did wrote prayers, 3751 03:32:48.719 --> 03:32:51.840 so you know, praying the psalms is not babbling. Or 3752 03:32:52.079 --> 03:32:54.239 or just because the prayers are wrote prayers, does it 3753 03:32:54.360 --> 03:32:57.280 make them babbling? He says, vain repetition, so it's not 3754 03:32:57.360 --> 03:32:59.719 inherently run to have repetition. Zacharie, what's up. 3755 03:33:00.879 --> 03:33:03.479 Hey, j I kind of had a question. 3756 03:33:04.159 --> 03:33:07.879 I don't know if this is like on topic per se, 3757 03:33:10.000 --> 03:33:13.360 but I have a friend who pro proposed the idea 3758 03:33:13.479 --> 03:33:18.920 that Satan is a relatively new Judeo Christian philosophy that 3759 03:33:19.120 --> 03:33:23.360 came from when I came from Babylon, when the Jews 3760 03:33:23.479 --> 03:33:24.879 were free from captivity. 3761 03:33:25.000 --> 03:33:26.520 So I don't I don't know. 3762 03:33:26.639 --> 03:33:28.680 I mean, Satan, Satan is in Satan is in the 3763 03:33:28.680 --> 03:33:31.520 Book of Genesis, so that precedes Babylonian captivity. So how 3764 03:33:31.520 --> 03:33:33.600 would he be a philosophy that's Babylonian. 3765 03:33:34.879 --> 03:33:37.079 Yeah, I mean that, that's what I said, and I 3766 03:33:37.239 --> 03:33:39.799 just didn't know if that was what you would say. 3767 03:33:39.840 --> 03:33:42.280 Also, No, I think that, Yeah, I mean, I mean, 3768 03:33:42.319 --> 03:33:45.920 there's not just Genesis. There's other texts that mentioned Satan 3769 03:33:46.200 --> 03:33:50.479 prior to the Babylonian captivity. But usually when people say this, 3770 03:33:50.600 --> 03:33:54.000 they're just repeating what some liberal scholars said. So I 3771 03:33:54.040 --> 03:33:56.079 don't even know if that's even in vogue amongst liberal 3772 03:33:56.120 --> 03:33:59.440 scholars anymore. Maybe it is, I don't know, but yeah, 3773 03:33:59.440 --> 03:34:01.159 I think you could look at just look up the 3774 03:34:01.280 --> 03:34:04.079 references to Satan. Satan appears in the Book of Job 3775 03:34:04.239 --> 03:34:07.799 so that's probabor to the Babylonian captivity. Uh, and Donnis, 3776 03:34:08.120 --> 03:34:11.319 what's up man? We had a wild night tonight. Shout 3777 03:34:11.360 --> 03:34:13.719 out to Tristana, shout out to Father Deacon, and I 3778 03:34:13.840 --> 03:34:16.520 shout out to Rachel. Shout out to Donatas shout out 3779 03:34:16.520 --> 03:34:20.639 to all you based homeboys and homegirls. In the chat, 3780 03:34:22.079 --> 03:34:25.559 you guys missed some Mormon madness. So I think it's 3781 03:34:25.559 --> 03:34:27.719 about the It's about the first Mormon that we've had 3782 03:34:27.760 --> 03:34:30.239 to actually come debate. It was wild that guy was like, 3783 03:34:31.440 --> 03:34:36.399 that was exciting, and it's interesting because I don't I 3784 03:34:36.440 --> 03:34:38.600 don't remember there ever being a Mormon to come debate 3785 03:34:39.159 --> 03:34:43.719 that I can recall. And Donnis, what's up? You have 3786 03:34:43.760 --> 03:34:44.360 to unmute man? 3787 03:34:46.520 --> 03:34:51.479 Hello? Hello, Yeah, okay. I had a question. I'm Greek Orthodox. 3788 03:34:52.799 --> 03:34:55.680 I had a question on an objection about the Council 3789 03:34:55.719 --> 03:34:57.280 of Trullough canon one oh one? 3790 03:34:59.719 --> 03:35:02.799 Is is this the one about community in the hand? 3791 03:35:03.639 --> 03:35:03.879 Yeah? 3792 03:35:05.360 --> 03:35:07.319 I mean I don't even understand why this isn't What 3793 03:35:07.479 --> 03:35:09.479 is this supposed to be objection to? Because the Church 3794 03:35:09.520 --> 03:35:11.680 can determine at different times, in different places how to 3795 03:35:11.719 --> 03:35:15.680 apply the canons. So didn't Luigi are responded to what 3796 03:35:15.799 --> 03:35:16.200 he said? 3797 03:35:16.280 --> 03:35:16.440 Right? 3798 03:35:18.079 --> 03:35:20.559 Luigi? In his video he responded to Voice of Reason, 3799 03:35:20.600 --> 03:35:25.760 if that's what you're referring to. Yeah, yeah, Luigi, I 3800 03:35:25.840 --> 03:35:28.200 have it on my wall. Look at Luigi's response and 3801 03:35:28.280 --> 03:35:32.319 he talks about I think Price's translation is the is 3802 03:35:32.520 --> 03:35:39.159 Luigi's response, So, but good question. Mexican. Wait a minute, 3803 03:35:39.159 --> 03:35:41.959 I'm double O seven. This is Mexican double O seven 3804 03:35:43.200 --> 03:35:46.399 A bro about the I'm literally about to smoke you, Bro. 3805 03:35:46.799 --> 03:35:49.920 I barely smoke you because I got like a license 3806 03:35:49.959 --> 03:35:57.319 to kill or whatever? Barely bro? A do you barely? 3807 03:35:57.639 --> 03:35:59.159 Do you barely got a license to kill? 3808 03:35:59.239 --> 03:35:59.639 Bro or what? 3809 03:36:01.959 --> 03:36:02.000 Not? 3810 03:36:02.239 --> 03:36:03.799 Really just a fan. 3811 03:36:04.719 --> 03:36:09.440 The question is I've been feeling a pool towards Orthodoxy. 3812 03:36:10.520 --> 03:36:15.479 I've been with Catholics in the past. Franciscan has Benedictines Dominicans. 3813 03:36:16.920 --> 03:36:17.639 They have like a. 3814 03:36:18.079 --> 03:36:22.239 Day prayer, like the Liturgy of the Hours. I'm just 3815 03:36:22.399 --> 03:36:24.680 wondering if being Orthodox. 3816 03:36:24.360 --> 03:36:27.000 Is like the prayer, similar to. 3817 03:36:28.959 --> 03:36:31.959 Like the prayer lifestyle, is it's similar to like the 3818 03:36:32.000 --> 03:36:33.120 way your church practicing. 3819 03:36:33.440 --> 03:36:37.079 There's some there's some similarity except and there's also some differences. 3820 03:36:37.239 --> 03:36:39.239 So I remember the Liturgy of the Hours and all 3821 03:36:39.280 --> 03:36:40.680 that when I was a Roman Catholic. 3822 03:36:40.479 --> 03:36:40.559 And. 3823 03:36:42.319 --> 03:36:45.520 I remember doing that. It's really going to depend on 3824 03:36:45.959 --> 03:36:48.280 like where you're at in your Orthodox life with your 3825 03:36:48.280 --> 03:36:52.319 spiritual Father, where he'll advise you on what kind of 3826 03:36:52.399 --> 03:36:56.479 prayer role and so forth. But there are some similarities. 3827 03:36:56.600 --> 03:36:58.719 But obviously it's not going to be the same types 3828 03:36:58.719 --> 03:37:03.680 of Roman Catholic prayers. But good question. Retweet the goods. 3829 03:37:07.760 --> 03:37:13.879 Retweet the goods. If you want to support the stream, 3830 03:37:13.920 --> 03:37:16.280 you can do so via a stream lives. Also heading 3831 03:37:16.280 --> 03:37:20.520 over to chalk dot com the best in supplementation. We 3832 03:37:20.680 --> 03:37:22.239 love chalk dot com. Do you want to unmute? I 3833 03:37:22.280 --> 03:37:25.159 can't read your Sanskrit or whatever your name is? 3834 03:37:27.520 --> 03:37:28.600 Hey boy, did you hear me? 3835 03:37:29.440 --> 03:37:30.159 Merely? What's up? 3836 03:37:31.479 --> 03:37:32.760 Yeah? I don't. 3837 03:37:33.399 --> 03:37:38.040 I'm pretty sure you because I've seen you in No 3838 03:37:38.200 --> 03:37:43.879 Kyle's videos. A. Yeah, I'm guessing at the g W 3839 03:37:44.120 --> 03:37:50.360 people and Johoway's witnesses. Yeah, but you being like, do 3840 03:37:50.479 --> 03:37:52.159 you like guys see the Bibles? 3841 03:37:52.440 --> 03:37:54.200 Afrlone long? Do you guys? 3842 03:37:54.760 --> 03:37:57.079 Is what I can't hear? You see the Bible as what? 3843 03:37:58.120 --> 03:38:01.079 But do you guys believe in the Bible as like 3844 03:38:01.319 --> 03:38:03.200 ultimate authority or do you guys. 3845 03:38:03.040 --> 03:38:05.920 Kind of go with tradition on certain fans as well? 3846 03:38:06.680 --> 03:38:09.840 They all work together, so the Bible or necessity tradition, 3847 03:38:10.000 --> 03:38:12.760 and the Bible and tradition necessitated the bishops and the church, 3848 03:38:12.920 --> 03:38:14.840 so they're all they all work together. There's not like 3849 03:38:15.319 --> 03:38:17.040 one of those that's the authority. 3850 03:38:19.559 --> 03:38:22.079 But like if someone in your church was teaching something 3851 03:38:22.159 --> 03:38:26.239 that was like condemned, you, guys wouldn't actually listened to 3852 03:38:26.319 --> 03:38:28.600 that personal right. 3853 03:38:28.559 --> 03:38:31.920 So there would be multiple authorities that he's going against, 3854 03:38:32.200 --> 03:38:34.360 namely the Bible and the tradition and the bishops. 3855 03:38:36.120 --> 03:38:38.559 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, So that's where like you kind 3856 03:38:38.600 --> 03:38:47.799 of disagree with the Catholics. Yeah, didn't you say that? 3857 03:38:48.159 --> 03:38:50.600 Luigi responded to Voice to Reason? Are you going to 3858 03:38:50.639 --> 03:38:51.639 debate Voice of Reason? 3859 03:38:53.360 --> 03:38:55.360 I didn't make the video response to Voice to Reason. 3860 03:38:55.479 --> 03:38:59.360 I DM voice. I DMed him and he ignored the 3861 03:38:59.680 --> 03:39:00.319 DM so. 3862 03:39:02.799 --> 03:39:04.479 Because I was just wondering if you were a debate 3863 03:39:04.639 --> 03:39:07.479 because it kind of misrepresents people. 3864 03:39:08.799 --> 03:39:12.000 I do agree with that, and he never responded to 3865 03:39:12.079 --> 03:39:13.799 the d M. So I don't think he's interested in 3866 03:39:13.879 --> 03:39:19.040 a debate with me. Oh that's an awsome question, bro, Yeah, 3867 03:39:19.399 --> 03:39:34.600 good questions. Appreciate that. Rickle Pickle, Rickle Hello, yeap. 3868 03:39:36.239 --> 03:39:41.399 Yo bro? Sorry Gay? Yeah, yeah, Hi Jay. 3869 03:39:41.799 --> 03:39:46.840 I'm another nominational believer in private scriptural and I had 3870 03:39:46.840 --> 03:39:51.440 a question about the biblical condens So from another nominational perspective, 3871 03:39:51.559 --> 03:39:54.879 I believe in the sixty six books Candon I wanted 3872 03:39:54.920 --> 03:39:58.360 to ask you a question as an eph believer, what's 3873 03:39:58.399 --> 03:40:00.799 your like do you have any ment? Also look into 3874 03:40:01.239 --> 03:40:05.200 concerning like canonization the earliest kind of the church, Like 3875 03:40:05.360 --> 03:40:06.799 when was scripture colonized? 3876 03:40:06.799 --> 03:40:07.559 How many books? 3877 03:40:07.680 --> 03:40:09.879 Like what is the Yeah, it's not it's in the 3878 03:40:09.959 --> 03:40:13.760 Orthodox view, it's canonized by Trollo really late. So that's 3879 03:40:13.840 --> 03:40:16.239 the ecumenical council that lists the canon. 3880 03:40:17.319 --> 03:40:19.479 Okay, so a late kind is where you get support 3881 03:40:19.520 --> 03:40:22.920 instead of an earlier kind of correct, All right? 3882 03:40:23.000 --> 03:40:23.200 Cool? 3883 03:40:23.239 --> 03:40:25.959 So would that also include like traditions that came late 3884 03:40:26.159 --> 03:40:29.399 or is that only like when the when that council 3885 03:40:29.479 --> 03:40:32.680 took place, that's when all of the things that would turn. 3886 03:40:32.559 --> 03:40:35.280 It departs were ratified. So like, does that include later 3887 03:40:35.399 --> 03:40:35.959 works from. 3888 03:40:35.840 --> 03:40:39.000 Like eight hundred and seven hundred or were these things 3889 03:40:39.079 --> 03:40:42.559 done as writings that primarily came from the early church 3890 03:40:42.600 --> 03:40:43.360 in the first country. 3891 03:40:43.959 --> 03:40:46.520 Well, the canon, the canon would be the Bible. So 3892 03:40:47.079 --> 03:40:48.440 what do I don't understand what you mean? 3893 03:40:49.079 --> 03:40:50.959 Like how much how many books would be in that 3894 03:40:51.120 --> 03:40:52.319 is what a masket like? Right? 3895 03:40:52.399 --> 03:40:55.959 So the Orthodox Bible is kind of basically the canon 3896 03:40:56.159 --> 03:40:58.520 that the Roman Calloic Church has because the Eastern Church 3897 03:40:58.559 --> 03:41:00.879 and the Western Church had to do or canonical books. 3898 03:41:02.200 --> 03:41:06.079 Okay, okay, so basically the same ones. Do theyre aquicol? 3899 03:41:06.559 --> 03:41:08.639 So do you have this seam the paper for writings 3900 03:41:08.680 --> 03:41:12.040 as well? Like, okay, cool, all right, I'll take a 3901 03:41:12.079 --> 03:41:12.440 look into that. 3902 03:41:12.719 --> 03:41:16.479 Yeah, I'm trying to think of I've done debates with 3903 03:41:16.559 --> 03:41:18.600 Protestants on the canon. Look up the debate that we 3904 03:41:18.680 --> 03:41:23.120 did with Dale the Protestant and then the debate I 3905 03:41:23.200 --> 03:41:26.479 did with Pedro the Protestant. Those are debates where we 3906 03:41:26.600 --> 03:41:29.959 talked about the canon. And I've done a lot of 3907 03:41:30.000 --> 03:41:31.879 talks on the canon. I just can't think of specifically 3908 03:41:31.959 --> 03:41:37.040 what they were. Were titled meme Rose, what's up? 3909 03:41:37.120 --> 03:41:37.360 Dude? 3910 03:41:45.520 --> 03:41:49.639 I think tonight might have been my largest numbers because 3911 03:41:49.680 --> 03:41:52.479 but that was probably people being dumping their their chat 3912 03:41:52.559 --> 03:41:55.399 into my chat. I think we hit seventeen Do we 3913 03:41:55.479 --> 03:41:57.159 hit seventeen hundred tonight? Max? 3914 03:41:58.479 --> 03:42:02.760 What's that? Man? Hey? Good hearing a cool question. 3915 03:42:02.879 --> 03:42:06.680 So what are your views on the Virgin Mary like 3916 03:42:06.799 --> 03:42:09.040 a she perpetually version? 3917 03:42:09.680 --> 03:42:09.879 Yes? 3918 03:42:10.319 --> 03:42:16.559 Or wait? What scripture? What scriptures show that. 3919 03:42:18.239 --> 03:42:21.000 Zeko forty four that the Prince who is the Messiah 3920 03:42:21.159 --> 03:42:24.840 exits the temple and the door remains shut and he 3921 03:42:25.120 --> 03:42:27.760 miraculously goes through it and it never is opened. 3922 03:42:29.479 --> 03:42:38.159 So when he knew or not, what does that mean, Joseph, Yeah, Matthew, and. 3923 03:42:38.200 --> 03:42:42.040 That means what Jerome explains in his letter against Silvettius, 3924 03:42:42.120 --> 03:42:44.239 that Jesus says, I'm with you till the end of 3925 03:42:44.280 --> 03:42:46.079 the world. Does that mean he's not with us after that? 3926 03:42:48.680 --> 03:42:51.559 No? No, No, to know someone like in the concept of. 3927 03:42:52.200 --> 03:42:54.760 It says he knew or not till. And I'm saying 3928 03:42:54.799 --> 03:42:58.000 the whole debate hinges on till doesn't necessitate that after 3929 03:42:58.200 --> 03:42:59.079 till it happened. 3930 03:43:00.239 --> 03:43:04.639 No, But what about judges Mans twenty five when they say, 3931 03:43:04.760 --> 03:43:06.639 but the men were not markets. 3932 03:43:06.879 --> 03:43:09.040 So the man said his conquentye and brought her fourth 3933 03:43:09.120 --> 03:43:09.680 onto them. 3934 03:43:09.639 --> 03:43:12.440 And they knew her because you not hear what The 3935 03:43:12.520 --> 03:43:15.360 debate is not over whether it's the debate is over 3936 03:43:15.399 --> 03:43:16.319 the word till in. 3937 03:43:16.719 --> 03:43:19.680 That text, And I'm asking if I knew her, how 3938 03:43:19.719 --> 03:43:20.520 does he know her? 3939 03:43:21.719 --> 03:43:23.879 The text it says that he did not know her, 3940 03:43:24.120 --> 03:43:26.239 and then it says till right. 3941 03:43:28.120 --> 03:43:28.600 I knew her? 3942 03:43:28.760 --> 03:43:30.879 Not right, And what's the rest of it? 3943 03:43:32.399 --> 03:43:33.719 She had with her first one? 3944 03:43:33.799 --> 03:43:37.399 So till so till does not necessitate that he did 3945 03:43:37.559 --> 03:43:42.239 know her after That's what I've been saying. So so 3946 03:43:42.399 --> 03:43:44.959 the same word till is used when Jesus says I'm 3947 03:43:45.000 --> 03:43:46.399 with you till the end of the world. Does that 3948 03:43:46.520 --> 03:43:47.319 mean he's not after? 3949 03:43:49.840 --> 03:43:51.760 No, No, he was talking about he was talking to 3950 03:43:52.799 --> 03:43:54.399 something else. But this is context. 3951 03:43:54.520 --> 03:43:57.120 Do not understand what the point is, so you can't 3952 03:43:57.159 --> 03:43:57.959 grasp the argument. 3953 03:43:58.760 --> 03:44:01.159 I completely grasp to trust me, I do this all 3954 03:44:01.239 --> 03:44:01.959 day with Catholics. 3955 03:44:03.399 --> 03:44:05.079 Well then hold on. If you do this all day 3956 03:44:05.120 --> 03:44:06.799 with Catholics, then you would have already heard this argument, 3957 03:44:06.840 --> 03:44:07.959 would have known what tills about. 3958 03:44:08.120 --> 03:44:09.959 I understand. I'm just trying to build in my argument. 3959 03:44:09.959 --> 03:44:12.000 I'm sorry, Well then hold on, then you don't know 3960 03:44:12.000 --> 03:44:12.920 actually know this argument. 3961 03:44:13.879 --> 03:44:14.319 Yes I do. 3962 03:44:14.520 --> 03:44:18.120 I'm building my argument about her not being a virtual version. 3963 03:44:18.920 --> 03:44:22.840 Well, how does the prince exit the door and it 3964 03:44:23.040 --> 03:44:24.120 never is opened? 3965 03:44:26.520 --> 03:44:27.520 That has nothing to do with merit? 3966 03:44:27.959 --> 03:44:30.159 Well, how do you know that? What door does the Messiah? 3967 03:44:30.159 --> 03:44:30.840 The prince exit? 3968 03:44:34.319 --> 03:44:35.639 What door does the Messiah? 3969 03:44:36.360 --> 03:44:37.719 What do you mean how do you know it doesn't 3970 03:44:37.719 --> 03:44:39.159 have anything to do with Mary? You didn't even know 3971 03:44:39.200 --> 03:44:40.680 what you don't know what verse on the target? 3972 03:44:41.799 --> 03:44:42.360 What's the verse? 3973 03:44:42.399 --> 03:44:45.479 Could I cited it at the very beginning. I read 3974 03:44:45.520 --> 03:44:48.559 it to you, he said, Ezekiel right forty four. Correct 3975 03:44:49.239 --> 03:44:51.920 the door that the Messiah exits that never opens. 3976 03:44:54.000 --> 03:44:57.440 Ezekiel forty four the Messiah. 3977 03:44:57.680 --> 03:44:59.280 Let me see, I'm trying to figure out because I 3978 03:44:59.319 --> 03:44:59.920 can't find them. 3979 03:45:00.799 --> 03:45:02.760 You can't find it, equal forty four. I thought you 3980 03:45:02.879 --> 03:45:04.959 deal with this every day with Catholics. 3981 03:45:05.760 --> 03:45:08.000 Oh, I never heard this from a Catholic right now? 3982 03:45:08.159 --> 03:45:10.559 Well, okay, but did you hear the till argument or 3983 03:45:10.639 --> 03:45:11.639 was that the first time you heard it? 3984 03:45:11.840 --> 03:45:12.040 Yes? 3985 03:45:12.879 --> 03:45:13.959 No, no, no, it's still arguments. 3986 03:45:14.159 --> 03:45:19.000 It's it all on void honestly, because the whole context. 3987 03:45:18.799 --> 03:45:20.600 Is he knew her not so anyways. 3988 03:45:20.760 --> 03:45:23.360 But but why did you stop there and not read 3989 03:45:23.399 --> 03:45:24.959 the rest of the verse when I asked you? So 3990 03:45:25.239 --> 03:45:28.520 you're just assuming your positions he knew her, not till. Oh, 3991 03:45:28.639 --> 03:45:30.959 so it does say till, so you intentionally so this 3992 03:45:31.079 --> 03:45:36.000 whole time you intentionally didn't say it. So you intentionally 3993 03:45:36.079 --> 03:45:37.920 didn't say till when you knew it was there. 3994 03:45:39.000 --> 03:45:39.760 But he knew her. 3995 03:45:39.879 --> 03:45:43.040 After it doesn't say that. Okay, So why does he 3996 03:45:43.120 --> 03:45:48.079 have kid what why brothers of the lord that brothers 3997 03:45:48.159 --> 03:45:50.280 of the Lord can mean cousins. You know that since 3998 03:45:50.319 --> 03:45:52.200 You've dealt with this all the time with Catholics. 3999 03:45:53.239 --> 03:45:55.120 Yeah, I know, but it's funny that you guys keep 4000 03:45:55.159 --> 03:45:56.239 switching what the Bible says. 4001 03:45:56.920 --> 03:45:59.319 So all right, but the Bible doesn't tell you that. 4002 03:45:59.559 --> 03:46:01.600 That's your interpretation of it, assuming your. 4003 03:46:01.520 --> 03:46:03.360 Position, But it doesn't that. 4004 03:46:04.120 --> 03:46:09.600 They doesn't say that. It doesn't say his his biological children. 4005 03:46:09.799 --> 03:46:10.719 That's your interpretation. 4006 03:46:12.600 --> 03:46:14.280 You mean you mean when he was going fast, they 4007 03:46:14.319 --> 03:46:15.000 weren't his brethren. 4008 03:46:16.559 --> 03:46:19.479 All of the Jews called themselves brethren. Jews called themselves 4009 03:46:19.520 --> 03:46:24.520 brethren all the time. That doesn't prove your position. By 4010 03:46:24.559 --> 03:46:26.520 the way, how do you even know what the Bible is? 4011 03:46:26.639 --> 03:46:26.680 Like? 4012 03:46:26.719 --> 03:46:27.760 How do you have the right Bible? 4013 03:46:29.239 --> 03:46:32.399 Well? I know the King's Ampible is the most fruitful Bible. 4014 03:46:32.440 --> 03:46:34.159 So that's the Wait, how do you know that's the 4015 03:46:34.239 --> 03:46:36.079 right one because. 4016 03:46:35.840 --> 03:46:37.079 That's the most fruitful and that's the. 4017 03:46:37.399 --> 03:46:39.360 Most fruitful Bible. What does that even mean? 4018 03:46:40.639 --> 03:46:43.159 Well, I'm sure you know I shall know them by 4019 03:46:43.200 --> 03:46:43.879 their fruits. 4020 03:46:43.680 --> 03:46:49.280 Right, So the your subjective idea of what the fruits 4021 03:46:49.319 --> 03:46:51.159 are is what tells you the right Bible, and it's 4022 03:46:51.159 --> 03:46:51.959 the King James Bible. 4023 03:46:52.879 --> 03:46:54.239 Do you know anything about King? 4024 03:46:55.040 --> 03:46:56.600 I know all about the history of the church, and 4025 03:46:56.799 --> 03:46:57.520 let's talk about it. 4026 03:47:00.120 --> 03:47:02.840 Christians are the Church. You're not a Christian, you're an Orthodox. 4027 03:47:02.959 --> 03:47:06.200 So please, okay, where where was your Where was your sect? 4028 03:47:06.319 --> 03:47:07.319 Before the king James? 4029 03:47:09.239 --> 03:47:11.799 My second started with Jesus? 4030 03:47:13.159 --> 03:47:15.399 Okay, and who believed what you believe in the first, 4031 03:47:15.440 --> 03:47:16.280 second or third century? 4032 03:47:16.319 --> 03:47:18.120 Here's a lively Peter was a lively star. 4033 03:47:18.440 --> 03:47:19.959 What are you even talking about? Who believed what you 4034 03:47:20.079 --> 03:47:22.319 believe in the second or third century? Give one person, 4035 03:47:22.719 --> 03:47:23.200 I don't. 4036 03:47:23.399 --> 03:47:25.040 I don't I follow the vibe. I don't follow what 4037 03:47:25.319 --> 03:47:25.600 men do. 4038 03:47:25.840 --> 03:47:29.000 So so you didn't have any representative in those centuries. 4039 03:47:28.719 --> 03:47:31.680 Right, well, representative, my representative. 4040 03:47:31.280 --> 03:47:34.120 Jesus, pro well, Jesus said that the church. Jesus said 4041 03:47:34.159 --> 03:47:36.360 the gate. Jesus said, the gates of Hell would not 4042 03:47:36.440 --> 03:47:38.479 prevail against the church. And so you set the church 4043 03:47:38.559 --> 03:47:42.920 up at his first advent? Where was your sect in 4044 03:47:43.040 --> 03:47:45.520 those centuries since the gates of Hell didn't prevail against it? 4045 03:47:46.399 --> 03:47:49.600 I'll tell you when when he said and on this frock. 4046 03:47:50.879 --> 03:47:53.239 Where was your sect in the second or third century? 4047 03:47:53.639 --> 03:47:55.799 It was right there would I just you're that stupid. 4048 03:47:56.120 --> 03:47:58.040 Your sect was in the second or third century when 4049 03:47:58.120 --> 03:47:59.559 Jesus said that in the first century. 4050 03:48:00.239 --> 03:48:00.959 I'm a boring again. 4051 03:48:01.719 --> 03:48:04.680 Where was your sect in the second, third, fourth, fifth, 4052 03:48:04.680 --> 03:48:05.200 sixth century? 4053 03:48:06.280 --> 03:48:06.920 What sect? 4054 03:48:07.280 --> 03:48:07.920 I don't follow? 4055 03:48:08.120 --> 03:48:11.200 So you don't have any representatives? Do you even understand 4056 03:48:11.239 --> 03:48:14.319 the arm Can you even understand? You don't understand the 4057 03:48:14.399 --> 03:48:15.079 argument I'm making? 4058 03:48:15.200 --> 03:48:15.840 You follow me? 4059 03:48:16.319 --> 03:48:17.600 I follow what the Bible stays? 4060 03:48:19.120 --> 03:48:20.840 Do you understand the argument I'm making? 4061 03:48:22.520 --> 03:48:23.079 You understand that? 4062 03:48:23.879 --> 03:48:26.120 So you can't restate my argument? You're incapable of it. 4063 03:48:28.520 --> 03:48:29.760 You don't know what the word it is, so that 4064 03:48:29.879 --> 03:48:31.479 you don't even know what the word incapable means. So 4065 03:48:31.600 --> 03:48:42.520 this is a complete idiot, Matt. My new standard is 4066 03:48:42.559 --> 03:48:45.719 that if a person is literally incapable of restating what 4067 03:48:46.079 --> 03:48:50.959 argument I'm making, it's time to move on. Matt. 4068 03:48:54.479 --> 03:48:55.559 Hey, Jay's going by. 4069 03:48:56.479 --> 03:48:56.879 What's up? 4070 03:48:59.280 --> 03:48:59.479 Hey? 4071 03:49:00.920 --> 03:49:02.959 Uh, I guess I'm. 4072 03:49:04.360 --> 03:49:04.799 About what. 4073 03:49:06.959 --> 03:49:07.600 You're cutting out? 4074 03:49:07.639 --> 03:49:07.760 Man? 4075 03:49:07.799 --> 03:49:08.079 I can't. 4076 03:49:10.760 --> 03:49:17.360 Oh, I'm sorry. Something better is still pretty bad. So 4077 03:49:17.440 --> 03:49:20.600 I guess on that last topic about where our sect was, 4078 03:49:20.760 --> 03:49:25.159 because I'd be considered a non nominational Christian. Also, I 4079 03:49:25.239 --> 03:49:29.680 guess our argument would be is that I would say 4080 03:49:29.840 --> 03:49:35.959 I don't think the Orthodox Church or the Catholic Church 4081 03:49:36.120 --> 03:49:40.479 in hole, like just because you're a member of that church. 4082 03:49:40.799 --> 03:49:43.440 That doesn't mean you were a guaranteed salvation or you're 4083 03:49:43.719 --> 03:49:44.399 actually a. 4084 03:49:44.440 --> 03:49:47.600 Follow absolutely nothing to do with answering the question at hand. 4085 03:49:47.799 --> 03:49:51.479 So I mean so, so, I guess my My answer 4086 03:49:51.520 --> 03:49:53.760 would be that the universal Church. 4087 03:49:53.879 --> 03:49:56.479 The answer is that you guys are incapable of understanding 4088 03:49:56.520 --> 03:50:01.760 the question. Can you restate what the argument is? 4089 03:50:06.280 --> 03:50:08.360 I guess, I guess No, I guess I couldn't. 4090 03:50:09.159 --> 03:50:10.799 So did Jesus set up a church? 4091 03:50:12.879 --> 03:50:13.440 Yes, okay? 4092 03:50:14.159 --> 03:50:16.319 Did he say that the gates of l would not 4093 03:50:16.440 --> 03:50:20.159 prevail over the church that he's setting up, Yes, okay, 4094 03:50:20.520 --> 03:50:25.079 But we're to believe that it's truly non denominational Christianity, 4095 03:50:25.120 --> 03:50:29.479 which didn't exist for centuries until the present. What last 4096 03:50:29.600 --> 03:50:34.840 sixty years? And so did the gates of l prevail 4097 03:50:34.920 --> 03:50:37.799 against the church throughout those centuries? 4098 03:50:39.040 --> 03:50:39.079 No? 4099 03:50:39.479 --> 03:50:40.280 And how is that not? 4100 03:50:40.559 --> 03:50:42.840 How is that the case when there were no non 4101 03:50:42.879 --> 03:50:44.920 denominationals for that all that time period? 4102 03:50:46.239 --> 03:50:48.639 I would say the entire time period, it would be 4103 03:50:48.719 --> 03:50:49.520 non denominational. 4104 03:50:50.239 --> 03:50:52.159 Just because you were titled. 4105 03:50:51.920 --> 03:50:55.520 Under that church and you attended the church didn't mean 4106 03:50:55.559 --> 03:50:58.440 you were part of christ church, would be my argument. 4107 03:50:59.079 --> 03:51:01.920 I mean, are you still are you? Are you serious? 4108 03:51:02.000 --> 03:51:05.200 Or are you trolling? I mean, I like so you 4109 03:51:05.360 --> 03:51:09.040 think so so the people So, the people at the 4110 03:51:09.079 --> 03:51:12.280 Council of Nicea were non denominational Christians, even though they 4111 03:51:12.360 --> 03:51:20.239 call themselves Orthodox Catholics. Yeah, okay, okay, I mean I 4112 03:51:20.319 --> 03:51:22.959 feel I feel you're a retard. This is that's so 4113 03:51:23.079 --> 03:51:24.600 stupid it's not even worth replying to. 4114 03:51:25.959 --> 03:51:26.000 So. 4115 03:51:29.639 --> 03:51:33.000 Yeah, Alfanatius had a strip mall, and uh, you know 4116 03:51:33.120 --> 03:51:35.239 a lot of people felt like he was a bishop, 4117 03:51:35.799 --> 03:51:41.360 but actually there was an ancient Alexandrian strip mall where 4118 03:51:41.399 --> 03:51:42.319 he rented out. 4119 03:51:43.280 --> 03:51:43.399 Uh. 4120 03:51:43.600 --> 03:51:46.760 They didn't have uh, monster trucks back in those days 4121 03:51:46.799 --> 03:51:50.959 like the non nominational churches today. They had horse truck 4122 03:51:51.200 --> 03:51:53.799 rallies instead of monster truck rallies. And that's what the 4123 03:51:53.879 --> 03:52:00.840 true Christians were up to. What's up, unmute, good evening, Jay? 4124 03:52:02.000 --> 03:52:06.719 Yeah, can you hear me? Just fine? Yep? I have 4125 03:52:06.920 --> 03:52:09.159 like a shower thought question if you have a second 4126 03:52:09.200 --> 03:52:09.360 for that. 4127 03:52:09.600 --> 03:52:10.959 This sounds gay? What do you want? 4128 03:52:12.680 --> 03:52:15.000 What are your thoughts on? Like dinosaurs? 4129 03:52:16.879 --> 03:52:18.680 Show that I don't want to hear nothing about you 4130 03:52:18.799 --> 03:52:23.120 in the shower magnum. What's up that dude's got a 4131 03:52:23.159 --> 03:52:26.200 crush on dinosaurs? He's in the in the shower fantasizing 4132 03:52:26.200 --> 03:52:28.079 about dinosaurs and m's come talk to me about that. 4133 03:52:29.520 --> 03:52:35.520 What's up, man, I'm mute. T rexes t Rex is gay. 4134 03:52:35.559 --> 03:52:37.159 If you notice, t Rex is always holding his hand 4135 03:52:37.159 --> 03:52:42.479 like the guy. Dude, what's up? 4136 03:52:43.319 --> 03:52:45.000 Hey just had a question. 4137 03:52:45.239 --> 03:52:48.280 Got a friend who's a Roman Catholic and he was 4138 03:52:48.360 --> 03:52:50.639 trying to tell me that. 4139 03:52:50.840 --> 03:52:51.079 Uh. 4140 03:52:52.600 --> 03:52:55.959 What is that him in the background, bitching like a 4141 03:52:56.000 --> 03:52:56.920 little kiddie. 4142 03:53:01.600 --> 03:53:02.120 Franch. 4143 03:53:03.520 --> 03:53:05.479 Well, he was trying to make the point that Judaism 4144 03:53:05.879 --> 03:53:10.520 could be trace back to Isaac and that Islam could 4145 03:53:10.520 --> 03:53:11.840 be trespect to Ishmael. 4146 03:53:12.639 --> 03:53:14.680 So I think, well, we don't even know that. So 4147 03:53:15.040 --> 03:53:16.520 you know, if you listen to a lot of samsh 4148 03:53:16.639 --> 03:53:19.319 Move's debates, he'll actually question the Muslims on that assumption. 4149 03:53:19.520 --> 03:53:21.319 And but there's no actual proof of that. 4150 03:53:22.040 --> 03:53:24.239 So no, I mean that's what I thought, because I 4151 03:53:24.639 --> 03:53:26.879 really heard no evidence to like support that. 4152 03:53:27.040 --> 03:53:30.000 But just but even if it was the case, what, look, 4153 03:53:30.040 --> 03:53:31.760 how what does this have to do with us? 4154 03:53:34.079 --> 03:53:34.280 Yeah? 4155 03:53:34.680 --> 03:53:37.120 I think he was trying to argue that, like the whole. 4156 03:53:38.479 --> 03:53:45.239 A discussion that you've had with Uh, can't. 4157 03:53:45.239 --> 03:53:46.360 I think of his name right now? 4158 03:53:46.639 --> 03:53:48.760 You're under cat. You're under cat attack? 4159 03:53:48.840 --> 03:53:50.680 Bro yea. 4160 03:53:52.719 --> 03:53:56.239 Is that cats in the background, No, that's my daughter children. 4161 03:53:56.360 --> 03:53:59.520 Oh my bad, like a cat. Watch also said that 4162 03:53:59.559 --> 03:54:02.879 Haitians coming, dude, watch out. Good you better put some 4163 03:54:03.120 --> 03:54:06.959 uh some some lie or something on them kiddies. They're 4164 03:54:06.959 --> 03:54:14.680 gonna get cooked if you coat your cat and lie 4165 03:54:15.000 --> 03:54:16.319 and a Haitian won't eat it. 4166 03:54:18.000 --> 03:54:19.520 Well, good thing I don't have any cats. 4167 03:54:20.680 --> 03:54:21.120 Go ahead. 4168 03:54:22.040 --> 03:54:27.959 Yeah, so, uh, trying to remember that guy's name, that 4169 03:54:28.079 --> 03:54:29.799 Catholic that he debated a while. 4170 03:54:29.680 --> 03:54:35.040 Back, Gay Gayerson, Yes, that's it. 4171 03:54:35.280 --> 03:54:41.719 Yeah, but he was trying to argue like a, I 4172 03:54:41.760 --> 03:54:44.239 don't know, like that generic god that. 4173 03:54:46.440 --> 03:54:51.399 You all worship and or not you but you mean 4174 03:54:51.440 --> 03:54:55.920 the guy that called in like a couple of days ago. No, No, 4175 03:54:56.399 --> 03:54:59.559 he's like Trent Horne. I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, okay, 4176 03:54:59.600 --> 03:55:00.600 what about there we go? 4177 03:55:01.000 --> 03:55:04.440 Oh I think he has probably been like watching some 4178 03:55:04.639 --> 03:55:05.440 of his content. 4179 03:55:05.680 --> 03:55:09.639 So, oh, I see your friends gotcham Yeah yeah. 4180 03:55:11.159 --> 03:55:14.079 Yeah, I just kind of want to just ask that 4181 03:55:15.239 --> 03:55:16.840 kind of just gonna. 4182 03:55:16.959 --> 03:55:20.479 Work, Like I'm sorry, I've totally got I've totally got 4183 03:55:20.520 --> 03:55:25.399 distracted here, Like uh yeah, Game Gamers is the festival 4184 03:55:26.600 --> 03:55:28.479 I'm just in a totally silly mood. I think I've 4185 03:55:28.520 --> 03:55:31.799 gone into total like insanity mode now because we've had 4186 03:55:31.840 --> 03:55:36.920 so many like crazy goofy goofy things tonight. Remember head 4187 03:55:36.920 --> 03:55:41.000 over to chalk dot com. He have his microwaving his cats. 4188 03:55:41.040 --> 03:55:41.120 Bro. 4189 03:55:41.440 --> 03:55:44.559 That was a microwave beep and that was cats. That 4190 03:55:44.680 --> 03:55:47.719 was no kid, that's a Haitian putting them damn cats 4191 03:55:47.760 --> 03:55:55.399 in the microwave. Bro, for real, for realm he's microwaven 4192 03:55:55.440 --> 03:55:56.600 pussy Burger's over there? 4193 03:55:56.799 --> 03:55:58.440 What what. 4194 03:56:00.959 --> 03:56:01.159 I have? 4195 03:56:01.360 --> 03:56:04.680 Terminal brain rot? Are you kidding? I'm on point, bro, 4196 03:56:04.799 --> 03:56:07.000 and I just have to piss really bad. That's the 4197 03:56:07.040 --> 03:56:09.040 only thing that's happened over here. Like, I think I'm 4198 03:56:09.120 --> 03:56:12.440 going insane because my bladder is is. 4199 03:56:15.639 --> 03:56:19.319 Why are you get give me the kitty? I want 4200 03:56:19.360 --> 03:56:21.559 the kitty, Dudes, Like, are you trying to hit all 4201 03:56:21.600 --> 03:56:21.879 my wife? 4202 03:56:21.920 --> 03:56:21.959 No? 4203 03:56:22.000 --> 03:56:28.200 I want the kitty the pit mean Dina, you want 4204 03:56:28.239 --> 03:56:31.200 my wife's kiddy? No, I want your cat, Bro, I 4205 03:56:31.319 --> 03:56:32.120 want Dinah. 4206 03:56:33.719 --> 03:56:41.680 The what's up? Yo yo yo yo yo, sir. 4207 03:56:43.280 --> 03:56:48.639 Uh. So there's been some drama lately. There's this brother. 4208 03:56:48.840 --> 03:56:52.079 Who's been doing apologetics against Islam for a few years. Okay, 4209 03:56:52.200 --> 03:56:55.559 it's now like because he's on the verge of hyposthesizing 4210 03:56:55.600 --> 03:56:56.520 and becoming Muslim. 4211 03:56:57.000 --> 03:56:59.559 Have you killed No, I haven't heard of those. 4212 03:57:01.239 --> 03:57:05.239 I don't want to Holt the guy. That's the reason why. 4213 03:57:05.159 --> 03:57:10.000 He wants to ampostesize is because he he's like he objects. 4214 03:57:09.559 --> 03:57:10.680 To the Islamic dilemma. 4215 03:57:11.159 --> 03:57:14.600 Like I don't agree with him, but I like, but 4216 03:57:14.760 --> 03:57:17.440 I kind of like play devil's advocate for his position 4217 03:57:17.559 --> 03:57:18.799 and see how you would respond to it. 4218 03:57:18.840 --> 03:57:20.479 Okay, well, before we go out, Like, first of all, 4219 03:57:20.559 --> 03:57:22.680 that's not the only reason to not believe Islam, Like 4220 03:57:22.799 --> 03:57:25.239 I mean, zombie Thelma is just one of the many arguments. 4221 03:57:25.280 --> 03:57:28.239 So like, I can't found him a person becoming convestive 4222 03:57:28.520 --> 03:57:34.280 of Islam knowing these things. But go ahead. His argument 4223 03:57:34.399 --> 03:57:34.920 is that like. 4224 03:57:36.680 --> 03:57:40.079 In his view, there's obviously passages in the Quran, who 4225 03:57:40.159 --> 03:57:44.840 he says are like corrective in a very specific sense against. 4226 03:57:44.680 --> 03:57:46.319 Like a biblical verse. 4227 03:57:46.879 --> 03:57:48.959 So like he would cite the verse which says that 4228 03:57:49.200 --> 03:57:51.879 like a law created the world. 4229 03:57:51.959 --> 03:57:55.040 And heavens in six days, and this did not make 4230 03:57:55.120 --> 03:57:55.559 him tired. 4231 03:57:55.680 --> 03:57:57.319 It goes something like this, and he will say, like 4232 03:57:57.719 --> 03:58:01.000 this is obviously a correction to the Genesis account than 4233 03:58:01.079 --> 03:58:01.760 God's resting. 4234 03:58:02.879 --> 03:58:05.799 Yeah, but nobody and but nobody in Christianity believe that 4235 03:58:05.840 --> 03:58:08.440 he was literally tired. I mean, that's that's stupid. 4236 03:58:10.680 --> 03:58:12.360 But like I guess he will say, like, this is 4237 03:58:12.680 --> 03:58:15.879 an objection to the idea of God resting, and therefore. 4238 03:58:15.600 --> 03:58:17.239 It must be like, Okay, but does he know that 4239 03:58:17.399 --> 03:58:20.079 all the stupid ship in the hot eaths about a 4240 03:58:20.200 --> 03:58:22.959 lot having gonads and wearing a cloak and being a 4241 03:58:23.040 --> 03:58:24.959 blonde boy with gold hair. I mean, does he know 4242 03:58:25.040 --> 03:58:27.760 any of that? Does he think that's more rational than 4243 03:58:27.840 --> 03:58:28.360 where he's at? 4244 03:58:31.120 --> 03:58:34.520 That's a good question. I guess I tried to reason. 4245 03:58:34.319 --> 03:58:36.319 With him, Well did you reason with him about these 4246 03:58:36.799 --> 03:58:37.559 dumb hadiths? 4247 03:58:40.079 --> 03:58:40.319 Yeah? 4248 03:58:40.959 --> 03:58:44.159 I tried to reasoning with him about like because like 4249 03:58:44.680 --> 03:58:46.280 how do you they will do? You know how I'm 4250 03:58:46.280 --> 03:58:50.120 gonna x Muslim myself? Okay and Muslims like compartable. 4251 03:58:50.159 --> 03:58:51.879 I was like, there's like a cogniti to this one 4252 03:58:51.879 --> 03:58:53.280 that's going to cause still. 4253 03:58:54.360 --> 03:58:56.200 I mean, if there's saw hold on, if there saw 4254 03:58:56.239 --> 03:58:58.079 he don't you have to believe him if you're unless 4255 03:58:58.120 --> 03:59:00.559 you're gonna be a she or something. 4256 03:59:03.440 --> 03:59:05.920 It's sort of a gray zone where it's like you 4257 03:59:05.959 --> 03:59:09.559 can reject the particular hadif and it doesn't make you like, 4258 03:59:09.799 --> 03:59:11.159 this doesn't kick you out of Islam. 4259 03:59:12.239 --> 03:59:14.280 Wait a minute, a minute. But my understanding is that 4260 03:59:14.440 --> 03:59:18.000 they have to have some akida and that will necessitate 4261 03:59:18.079 --> 03:59:21.360 you having some position like you can't, can't, won't they 4262 03:59:21.440 --> 03:59:24.360 say that your shirt If you're like picking and choosing 4263 03:59:24.440 --> 03:59:26.639 hadith that are considered sahi. 4264 03:59:29.639 --> 03:59:34.799 Uh no, at worst, it's simple. And this goes to 4265 03:59:35.000 --> 03:59:39.639 like a problem with Islamic epistemology. Okay, there isn't a 4266 03:59:39.799 --> 03:59:43.120 canon of what hadiths are really sahi. It all comes 4267 03:59:43.200 --> 03:59:46.319 down to like the opinions of scholars, and every hadif 4268 03:59:46.360 --> 03:59:48.840 scholar has his own collection of haddief that he thinks 4269 03:59:48.879 --> 03:59:51.840 is a hai, and like you know, there's like ten 4270 03:59:51.920 --> 03:59:52.639 thousand hadif. 4271 03:59:52.879 --> 03:59:56.079 Okay, okay, Well, even if he can slide past this, 4272 03:59:56.520 --> 03:59:58.600 like I mean, there's enough stupid stuff in the Qur'an, 4273 03:59:58.879 --> 04:00:02.200 like I mean, the Kuran mixes up Bible stories and 4274 04:00:02.239 --> 04:00:05.680 gets them out of whack. So even if he thought 4275 04:00:05.760 --> 04:00:08.600 that like the statement in Genesis was like a corrective 4276 04:00:08.639 --> 04:00:12.040 to the idea that God rested I mean, Gregor Paloma 4277 04:00:12.159 --> 04:00:15.000 says that God resting is is a proof of the 4278 04:00:15.120 --> 04:00:18.680 essence synergy distinction. So I'm surprised this person who's supposed 4279 04:00:18.680 --> 04:00:20.280 to be Orthodox doesn't know that. 4280 04:00:22.360 --> 04:00:24.040 Yeah, and I wanted to get to that, like I 4281 04:00:24.079 --> 04:00:25.840 think this like the long of dilemma. 4282 04:00:25.840 --> 04:00:27.479 As you said, it's a great argument, but it's not 4283 04:00:27.559 --> 04:00:28.319 the only arguments. 4284 04:00:28.559 --> 04:00:30.000 And the other side like if you want to go 4285 04:00:30.159 --> 04:00:32.360 down the road and say that, Okay, No, the kron 4286 04:00:32.399 --> 04:00:34.120 actually super strongly thinks. 4287 04:00:33.920 --> 04:00:37.559 The old scriptures are corrupted. That's a whole other can 4288 04:00:37.639 --> 04:00:38.559 of worms, like why. 4289 04:00:38.440 --> 04:00:41.840 Would God allow scripture to be corrupted for two thousand years? 4290 04:00:41.920 --> 04:00:44.399 Well, and he says that, I mean, the early Muslim 4291 04:00:44.479 --> 04:00:47.559 said interpreting the Koran that all his words cannot be corrupted. 4292 04:00:50.920 --> 04:00:51.559 Yeah, exactly. 4293 04:00:52.399 --> 04:00:54.399 And the verse they always cite to show that the 4294 04:00:54.520 --> 04:00:58.040 Qur'an is preserved, it actually doesn't say that the chron 4295 04:00:58.120 --> 04:00:59.920 is presently says that scripture is preserved. 4296 04:01:00.360 --> 04:01:03.120 We will preserve the scripture is what it says. 4297 04:01:03.319 --> 04:01:07.360 Okay, So the assumption is that we're not told what 4298 04:01:07.440 --> 04:01:11.239 that is, so that could be anything. Is that the 4299 04:01:11.280 --> 04:01:14.520 point you're making? In other words, scripture meaning the Bible, 4300 04:01:14.760 --> 04:01:16.959 or that it's ambiguous. 4301 04:01:19.000 --> 04:01:21.639 They will read it. That's the qurana. But there's nothing. 4302 04:01:22.280 --> 04:01:24.200 Yeah, but it's ambiguous, is what you're saying. 4303 04:01:24.760 --> 04:01:27.040 Yeah, okay, I can give you the words. I can google. 4304 04:01:27.079 --> 04:01:27.520 It's square. 4305 04:01:32.840 --> 04:01:34.479 What's what's the reference. 4306 04:01:35.719 --> 04:01:46.040 The town's verse fifteen nine? 4307 04:01:51.239 --> 04:01:53.799 Is this a prominent person or a lesser known person 4308 04:01:53.879 --> 04:01:54.639 that we're talking about? 4309 04:01:55.959 --> 04:02:01.079 The guy who's leaving. Yeah, I guess it's around like 4310 04:02:01.280 --> 04:02:02.360 one thousand followers. 4311 04:02:03.440 --> 04:02:07.200 He's strictly on Twitter, can can You don't want to 4312 04:02:07.200 --> 04:02:07.719 say who it is? 4313 04:02:10.000 --> 04:02:13.159 Al fin Lundi is what he is? Like you in 4314 04:02:13.600 --> 04:02:14.239 the alphawds? 4315 04:02:15.760 --> 04:02:15.879 Uh? 4316 04:02:17.000 --> 04:02:20.000 His Twitter at is at Al fin Landi, like Al 4317 04:02:20.120 --> 04:02:22.639 the Arab plagued and fin Lundy like. 4318 04:02:23.280 --> 04:02:24.639 I don't even know who it is. So that's fine. 4319 04:02:26.520 --> 04:02:31.079 Oh so fifty nine said fifteen Yeah, I'm not familiar 4320 04:02:31.120 --> 04:02:32.840 with the person. Fifty nine says that A certainly we 4321 04:02:32.920 --> 04:02:35.120 who have revealed the reminder, and a certainly way who 4322 04:02:35.120 --> 04:02:37.959 will preserve it? So is the Arabic scripture there. 4323 04:02:41.159 --> 04:02:43.440 If they will read it us. This is the This 4324 04:02:43.559 --> 04:02:46.280 is like the super important verse from Muslims. 4325 04:02:46.840 --> 04:02:49.159 This is where they take the idea, the theological idea 4326 04:02:49.200 --> 04:02:50.680 that the crime is preserved. 4327 04:02:50.520 --> 04:02:51.559 And will be preserved. 4328 04:02:52.360 --> 04:02:55.600 Okay, and it's a pretty ambiguous words like we sent 4329 04:02:55.680 --> 04:02:58.280 down a reminder and we will preserve it. What is 4330 04:02:58.280 --> 04:02:58.799 the reminder? 4331 04:02:59.319 --> 04:03:06.680 I see, Yeah, I understand what you're saying. It's ambiguous. 4332 04:03:06.760 --> 04:03:08.680 But now so was he is he trying to use 4333 04:03:08.719 --> 04:03:10.799 this this I don't understand, Like what what does this prove? 4334 04:03:12.000 --> 04:03:13.920 Would you would your would this guy? Would he go 4335 04:03:14.000 --> 04:03:16.360 talk to Sam Shamun or Christian Prince or somebody? 4336 04:03:18.639 --> 04:03:18.799 Uh? 4337 04:03:19.879 --> 04:03:21.559 I tried to try to commit them to go in 4338 04:03:21.639 --> 04:03:23.920 this date you here, but he even. 4339 04:03:23.719 --> 04:03:26.879 Wants But well he can, he should go. He can 4340 04:03:26.959 --> 04:03:28.879 have a conversation. He doesn't have to have it to date. 4341 04:03:29.040 --> 04:03:32.680 I mean, yeah, I'll. 4342 04:03:34.319 --> 04:03:39.600 Uh talk to him, but yeah, plant, I can't talk 4343 04:03:39.600 --> 04:03:40.680 to another thing about like. 4344 04:03:40.760 --> 04:03:41.840 Towh and Islam? 4345 04:03:44.959 --> 04:03:45.879 I miss I missed that. 4346 04:03:45.959 --> 04:03:50.840 What can I just talk about other things about Islam? 4347 04:03:51.479 --> 04:03:51.600 Uh? 4348 04:03:51.840 --> 04:03:53.719 Well, I'm gonna have to. I'm gonna move on. I'm 4349 04:03:53.719 --> 04:03:56.079 not trying to be rude to you, and we'll come 4350 04:03:56.159 --> 04:03:59.920 back maybe, but I'm gonna somebody has come in as myself. 4351 04:04:00.879 --> 04:04:07.639 So Jay Dyer, what's your argument? Go ahead and me 4352 04:04:07.799 --> 04:04:19.280 unmute you have to unmute me. Oh hey hey Jay, hey, j. 4353 04:04:21.719 --> 04:04:28.239 So you think that Catholicism is false because we think 4354 04:04:28.399 --> 04:04:30.440 Muslims will worship the same God or or that's a 4355 04:04:30.559 --> 04:04:32.239 reason why it's evidence. 4356 04:04:31.959 --> 04:04:34.440 Of the false Well, not that you think that you've 4357 04:04:34.479 --> 04:04:38.079 dogmatically stated that more than once, right, Yeah, that we've 4358 04:04:38.159 --> 04:04:39.319 dougmated so. 4359 04:04:40.000 --> 04:04:42.920 And one of the things that you bring up to 4360 04:04:43.000 --> 04:04:47.479 prove that is that they deny the incarnation, therefore they 4361 04:04:47.559 --> 04:04:47.959 deny the. 4362 04:04:47.959 --> 04:04:53.760 Father, right, Because, well, there's many reasons why that's the case, 4363 04:04:53.920 --> 04:04:56.479 one of which is that the word God is a 4364 04:04:56.959 --> 04:05:00.399 generic reference and it doesn't have, without a conc or 4365 04:05:00.440 --> 04:05:03.559 an intentionality, any specific reference. So how do we know 4366 04:05:03.760 --> 04:05:05.840 that it's the same God just on the basis of 4367 04:05:05.879 --> 04:05:10.719 the term God. But I argue more specifically that the 4368 04:05:10.799 --> 04:05:16.079 texts of the Vatican two nosertat Limagentium state that they 4369 04:05:16.159 --> 04:05:19.879 also adore the same God and have the faith of Abraham. 4370 04:05:20.159 --> 04:05:22.239 And they do not have the faith of Abraham. Because 4371 04:05:22.360 --> 04:05:24.959 the New Testament many times over, every time it talks 4372 04:05:25.000 --> 04:05:27.079 about the faith of Abraham, it specifies that it is 4373 04:05:27.280 --> 04:05:31.559 the Triune God that Abraham worshiped and that Abraham believed 4374 04:05:31.559 --> 04:05:33.680 the Gospel. So the faith of Abraham has to be 4375 04:05:33.799 --> 04:05:36.319 faith in Christ. There is no faith of Abraham. That's 4376 04:05:36.479 --> 04:05:38.440 Muslim option or this Jewish option. 4377 04:05:40.040 --> 04:05:40.479 I see. 4378 04:05:40.639 --> 04:05:44.280 So, so you may be open to saying that they 4379 04:05:44.440 --> 04:05:46.600 acknowledge the same God even if they don't have the faith. 4380 04:05:46.840 --> 04:05:48.399 But they don't have the faith, well. 4381 04:05:48.280 --> 04:05:52.719 I mean, as a Satanist can say I acknowledge one God. 4382 04:05:52.799 --> 04:05:55.120 Does that make a Satanist the same as us because 4383 04:05:55.159 --> 04:05:55.959 he's a monotheist. 4384 04:05:58.559 --> 04:06:01.440 No, I'm just asking you because a lot of times 4385 04:06:01.479 --> 04:06:02.000 people say we. 4386 04:06:02.000 --> 04:06:06.280 Don't worship the same God. We don't, okay, And and 4387 04:06:06.440 --> 04:06:07.000 your reason for. 4388 04:06:07.040 --> 04:06:09.319 Saying that is, well, this is the reason that That's 4389 04:06:09.360 --> 04:06:11.280 the reason that I just gave. And there's many other 4390 04:06:11.319 --> 04:06:16.200 reasons too. For example, Muslims exclude many essential attributes. Did 4391 04:06:16.280 --> 04:06:16.600 you know that? 4392 04:06:18.239 --> 04:06:19.159 Yes, I understand. 4393 04:06:19.200 --> 04:06:22.319 Well, I understand you know you have a specific understand 4394 04:06:22.399 --> 04:06:24.479 Are the Orthodox have a different view of God's nature? 4395 04:06:25.440 --> 04:06:26.760 And is that energies and everything? No? 4396 04:06:26.799 --> 04:06:29.559 No, No, I'm saying that on your position, you believe 4397 04:06:29.600 --> 04:06:32.319 in attributes that are essential to who God is that 4398 04:06:32.479 --> 04:06:37.920 Muslims exclude. So how is it how how even on 4399 04:06:38.000 --> 04:06:39.799 your own position, is it the same reference? 4400 04:06:42.920 --> 04:06:46.040 I would say it's the same reference in the same 4401 04:06:46.200 --> 04:06:50.799 way that the New Testament assumes that Jews acknowledge the 4402 04:06:50.840 --> 04:06:52.079 same God, despite. 4403 04:06:51.760 --> 04:06:52.920 Them not acknowledging the sun. 4404 04:06:53.239 --> 04:06:55.840 But does Jesus operate that way when he debates with 4405 04:06:55.840 --> 04:06:58.399 the Pharisees on this very question in John five through nine, 4406 04:07:00.959 --> 04:07:03.440 Because it's pretty sure Jesus says, you have never seen 4407 04:07:03.520 --> 04:07:06.200 him nor known him when he argues with the Pharisees 4408 04:07:06.239 --> 04:07:06.799 over this question. 4409 04:07:09.959 --> 04:07:11.559 Yeah, he says, they haven't seen him or known him. 4410 04:07:11.760 --> 04:07:12.760 Oh, but it's the same God. 4411 04:07:15.159 --> 04:07:19.120 Well, they have a they have a zeal for God, right. 4412 04:07:19.600 --> 04:07:22.520 But not according to knowledge, so it's not the right God. 4413 04:07:23.559 --> 04:07:25.840 By the way, in the New Testament, you can distinguish 4414 04:07:25.959 --> 04:07:31.520 between a conceptual idea and a relationship. So knowing God 4415 04:07:31.600 --> 04:07:35.879 in the sense of a relationship, which that term is 4416 04:07:36.000 --> 04:07:38.200 used specifically for no in the sense, and it's the 4417 04:07:38.239 --> 04:07:40.200 same term that's used for husband and wife to know, 4418 04:07:40.840 --> 04:07:45.159 versus having an abstract conceptual knowledge of something. Let's give 4419 04:07:45.200 --> 04:07:48.440 another example. Mormons say that they believe in Jesus Christ. 4420 04:07:48.959 --> 04:07:50.959 Do they believe in Jesus Christ like us? 4421 04:07:53.719 --> 04:07:55.680 They know that Jesus is different? 4422 04:07:55.760 --> 04:07:59.639 Yeah, okay, so then that disproves this whole natural theology approach. 4423 04:08:02.280 --> 04:08:03.120 Do you think that. 4424 04:08:04.840 --> 04:08:10.000 You're the way that you do you so you're okay 4425 04:08:10.159 --> 04:08:14.719 with saying that they try to honor God if based 4426 04:08:14.760 --> 04:08:17.079 on that, it's not wrong to say they try to 4427 04:08:17.159 --> 04:08:19.959 honor God but ignorantly, because that seems to be with 4428 04:08:20.000 --> 04:08:20.719 Saint Paul's it. 4429 04:08:21.120 --> 04:08:23.159 Well, well, whether Saint Paul's said that or not in 4430 04:08:23.280 --> 04:08:26.520 Acts seventeen is one thing. But the problem is that 4431 04:08:26.719 --> 04:08:30.639 Vatican two says, and the Catechism as well, that they 4432 04:08:30.799 --> 04:08:34.479 have the faith of Abraham and that they adore God 4433 04:08:34.760 --> 04:08:38.639 like us. An adoration in your theology is specifically worship, 4434 04:08:39.000 --> 04:08:40.920 which is just simply not true. So I Vatican two, 4435 04:08:41.239 --> 04:08:45.239 if they specified, for example, that they have an abstract 4436 04:08:45.280 --> 04:08:47.559 conceptual knowledge of God or they seek to do this, 4437 04:08:48.040 --> 04:08:50.040 it doesn't say that, it says that they actually do it. 4438 04:08:50.200 --> 04:08:50.840 That's the problem. 4439 04:08:52.440 --> 04:08:54.600 Okay, So you have the issue with the faith of 4440 04:08:54.639 --> 04:08:58.120 Abraham and at the term adore being applied to Okay. 4441 04:08:57.879 --> 04:09:01.000 Correctly, All right, well I appreciate that. 4442 04:09:01.399 --> 04:09:01.639 Yeah. 4443 04:09:04.280 --> 04:09:06.559 Interesting, I thought that was going to turn into a 4444 04:09:06.680 --> 04:09:16.239 really nasty Roman Catholic interaction, but that was a fair interaction. Echthelion. Yeah, 4445 04:09:16.280 --> 04:09:19.920 I mean, when this comes up, I think that Roman 4446 04:09:19.959 --> 04:09:23.239 Catholics could have gotten around this if it had not 4447 04:09:23.479 --> 04:09:26.920 said faith of Abraham in I think e limgentium. Let's 4448 04:09:26.959 --> 04:09:30.040 go to limitgentium on that. And if it had not 4449 04:09:30.159 --> 04:09:38.040 said adoration, because those are really you know, let's see 4450 04:09:42.040 --> 04:09:44.000 like it said, like right here it says the Muslims 4451 04:09:44.000 --> 04:09:46.479 who professed to hold the faith of Abraham. So right 4452 04:09:46.600 --> 04:09:50.040 there you might could say, well, but there it doesn't 4453 04:09:50.079 --> 04:09:52.079 say they do it. It says they profess to. But 4454 04:09:52.239 --> 04:09:55.159 then it says along with us they adore the one 4455 04:09:55.200 --> 04:09:58.680 immerciful God, which is identifying it as the same reference. 4456 04:09:58.760 --> 04:10:00.680 You see how that is where it it's difficult, And 4457 04:10:00.760 --> 04:10:04.040 then that's not that's just lumin Gentem sixteen. All show 4458 04:10:04.120 --> 04:10:08.479 in Nora Tata says that they take pains to submit 4459 04:10:08.600 --> 04:10:14.200 to God's decrees, just as did Abraham, who who with 4460 04:10:14.399 --> 04:10:16.799 whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, 4461 04:10:16.920 --> 04:10:17.879 submits to God. 4462 04:10:18.799 --> 04:10:19.239 So you have. 4463 04:10:21.040 --> 04:10:25.360 Both of those things there with us they adore God, 4464 04:10:26.399 --> 04:10:30.319 they have the faith of Abraham. In Nos Tante and 4465 04:10:30.399 --> 04:10:34.520 I think the way the Catechism phrases the catelic catechor 4466 04:10:34.639 --> 04:10:37.920 it basically just summarizes the way these two documents speak. 4467 04:10:38.680 --> 04:10:41.079 But anyway, that's not even the only problem, because it 4468 04:10:41.120 --> 04:10:43.959 says the same thing about Hindus, and that one I don't. 4469 04:10:44.120 --> 04:10:48.000 I don't see how in nosratate like, I mean, how 4470 04:10:48.040 --> 04:10:52.280 does the Hindu worship God in love? Trying to find 4471 04:10:52.280 --> 04:11:09.719 the Hindu statement, here's Buddhism. Thus, in Hinduism, men contemplate 4472 04:11:09.760 --> 04:11:13.559 the divine mystery and seek it through philosophical inquiry, blah 4473 04:11:13.600 --> 04:11:19.200 blah blah. They seek freedom from anglish and through ascetical 4474 04:11:19.319 --> 04:11:23.440 practices and profound meditation, a flight to God with love 4475 04:11:23.479 --> 04:11:26.879 and trust. I don't I don't see how you can 4476 04:11:26.920 --> 04:11:32.639 say that, because it's the way it's worded. It says 4477 04:11:33.200 --> 04:11:36.799 through the I mean, Hinduism is totally demonic. So in 4478 04:11:36.959 --> 04:11:39.920 their ascetic practices, which are like self harm and all 4479 04:11:39.959 --> 04:11:42.639 this crazy stuff, they're not actually attaining to God. But 4480 04:11:42.799 --> 04:11:46.479 this says they're seeking meditation and flight to God with 4481 04:11:46.680 --> 04:11:49.680 love and trust. And I don't see how that how 4482 04:11:49.840 --> 04:11:54.840 you could say that excilion, because it's not saying in spite, 4483 04:11:54.959 --> 04:11:58.319 it's saying in Hinduism. So in other words, in the 4484 04:11:58.399 --> 04:12:02.639 false religion they're doing this, it's not saying in spite 4485 04:12:02.680 --> 04:12:06.120 of their you know, idolatry and false religion. They're groping 4486 04:12:06.200 --> 04:12:08.399 after God. That's you know, Act seventeen is the way 4487 04:12:08.440 --> 04:12:14.120 Paul words it. This says in Hinduism, in Islam, and 4488 04:12:14.600 --> 04:12:20.559 as even Tim Gordon admits now he thinks the worst 4489 04:12:20.680 --> 04:12:24.079 position is the Jews. He says, what's said about the 4490 04:12:24.159 --> 04:12:29.760 Jews here is the real impossible position to admit because 4491 04:12:29.799 --> 04:12:33.159 of the previous Catholic tradition on the perfidious Jews is 4492 04:12:33.200 --> 04:12:38.120 the liturgical statements. He says. The way that Luminingentie Minister 4493 04:12:38.200 --> 04:12:42.319 Tat speak of the Jews is even more difficult. Okay, well, 4494 04:12:42.399 --> 04:12:44.200 whatever position you want to take on that, I think 4495 04:12:44.239 --> 04:12:47.559 that really they're all wrong headed. Do you want to 4496 04:12:47.639 --> 04:12:48.520 speak excilion? 4497 04:12:49.600 --> 04:12:50.280 I do? I do. 4498 04:12:51.360 --> 04:12:56.479 So I've just had I'm a Protestant, previous Protestant who's 4499 04:12:56.559 --> 04:12:59.920 now an Eastern Orthodox, just started catechy in two weeks ago, 4500 04:13:00.959 --> 04:13:04.479 and I've been having every time I meet up with 4501 04:13:04.559 --> 04:13:06.760 one of my old Protestant buddies, they want to debate 4502 04:13:06.840 --> 04:13:09.719 me on why you know, they want to convert. 4503 04:13:09.520 --> 04:13:10.760 Me back to Protestantism. 4504 04:13:11.000 --> 04:13:15.479 Sure, and uh so I recently had a conversation with 4505 04:13:15.600 --> 04:13:17.079 my buddy Omar, who. 4506 04:13:18.319 --> 04:13:21.440 You most could become mother and equal three. 4507 04:13:22.280 --> 04:13:25.040 He actually is he actually is an ex Mohammedan, but 4508 04:13:25.120 --> 04:13:29.559 he's a Protestant now, and uh yeah he was. 4509 04:13:29.719 --> 04:13:31.040 You know, me and him were kind of going back 4510 04:13:31.040 --> 04:13:31.319 and forth. 4511 04:13:31.360 --> 04:13:34.360 We're having an argument, and so basically I just want 4512 04:13:34.399 --> 04:13:36.559 to kind of present to use some of the arguments 4513 04:13:36.600 --> 04:13:38.280 he was making to me that I was having a 4514 04:13:38.319 --> 04:13:41.680 hard time responding to, not because they were sound arguments, 4515 04:13:41.760 --> 04:13:45.440 but more just because they were just difficult to respond to. 4516 04:13:45.600 --> 04:13:48.520 They're like, so I'll give you an example. One of 4517 04:13:48.559 --> 04:13:52.799 his arguments was like about the invisible church, right that 4518 04:13:53.639 --> 04:13:56.360 you know, the the church that Jesus Christ said up 4519 04:13:56.760 --> 04:14:00.799 was something that you know, we can't see, feel or touch. 4520 04:14:01.040 --> 04:14:04.680 It doesn't have you know, some structure or place to 4521 04:14:04.799 --> 04:14:08.600 go to, but is just you know, it just exists, 4522 04:14:08.760 --> 04:14:10.200 like kind of like the last color. 4523 04:14:10.120 --> 04:14:11.559 Was saying, you know, it's the right. 4524 04:14:11.680 --> 04:14:12.920 I mean, I used to be I used to be 4525 04:14:12.959 --> 04:14:16.319 a Protestant. I know the invisible church doctrine what I'm saying. 4526 04:14:16.159 --> 04:14:17.760 Right, So, like, how do I respond to that kind 4527 04:14:17.799 --> 04:14:18.280 of argument? 4528 04:14:18.760 --> 04:14:21.680 Well, simply put, the church is identified in the New 4529 04:14:21.719 --> 04:14:25.840 Testament as the Body of Christ, and christ body was 4530 04:14:25.879 --> 04:14:29.719 a human body, it wasn't a spiritual body. That's Gnostic 4531 04:14:30.200 --> 04:14:33.239 in Christ's body in Paul's analogy, has to be as 4532 04:14:33.319 --> 04:14:36.600 one and unite it as his physical body. So they 4533 04:14:36.639 --> 04:14:40.879 have a Gnostic Nestorian ecclesiology. When they say that there's 4534 04:14:40.959 --> 04:14:46.719 this invisible body that doesn't exist, it's an actual this too. 4535 04:14:48.399 --> 04:14:51.159 The Donatists are their first to teach a an invisible 4536 04:14:51.239 --> 04:14:54.120 church because of their purity doctrine. So their idea is, well, 4537 04:14:54.520 --> 04:14:57.799 only the pure that do not commit sin have the 4538 04:14:57.879 --> 04:15:01.879 grace and have the sacraments. So yes, they're notice. 4539 04:15:02.120 --> 04:15:04.799 Also, what's this just dawn on me the other day? 4540 04:15:07.239 --> 04:15:09.760 God is not a god of confusion. And what this 4541 04:15:10.280 --> 04:15:13.600 does is it it blurs the boundaries. 4542 04:15:13.680 --> 04:15:18.200 You can't actually, for us, the church militant ever identify 4543 04:15:18.360 --> 04:15:21.399 where the church is. So it could be over that. 4544 04:15:22.079 --> 04:15:25.680 Do you see how problematic that is? Who to say 4545 04:15:25.799 --> 04:15:28.200 it could be the And of course. 4546 04:15:28.000 --> 04:15:32.079 This is exactly where humanism comes at. That's just the 4547 04:15:32.200 --> 04:15:33.520 next step. Well, where we. 4548 04:15:33.799 --> 04:15:36.280 Say that the Hindus not worshiping the same you know, 4549 04:15:36.399 --> 04:15:37.920 the boundaries they are invisible. 4550 04:15:38.120 --> 04:15:42.360 We could and that's also Jay, you. 4551 04:15:42.360 --> 04:15:45.479 Were trying that into the gnostic But you know, narcissism 4552 04:15:46.319 --> 04:15:51.040 connection with the uphol is to what blur boundaries. It's 4553 04:15:51.120 --> 04:15:54.840 all boundaries. So I think it's important that we point 4554 04:15:54.920 --> 04:15:57.719 that out. So you've got a god a confusion that. 4555 04:15:57.719 --> 04:16:00.520 It's going to basically be like set a store. It's 4556 04:16:00.559 --> 04:16:02.639 like you can never actually tell where the church is. 4557 04:16:03.280 --> 04:16:06.079 We're gonna blur the boundaries, and now we're gonna have 4558 04:16:06.079 --> 04:16:09.440 always people being confused and ending up in Hindu cults 4559 04:16:09.479 --> 04:16:13.319 and stuff and and Muslims because we're all, you know, 4560 04:16:13.639 --> 04:16:14.639 who knows where. 4561 04:16:14.440 --> 04:16:15.079 The church is? Right? 4562 04:16:15.120 --> 04:16:17.600 And remember Paul says in Ephesians, right, the church is 4563 04:16:17.799 --> 04:16:22.159 there's one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one body. I 4564 04:16:22.239 --> 04:16:25.920 mean not I mean if it's invisible, then that then 4565 04:16:26.079 --> 04:16:30.040 Paul's really pointing out something that doesn't do anybody any good. Right, 4566 04:16:30.319 --> 04:16:32.719 If it's visible, then like Father Decan saying, oh, that's 4567 04:16:32.760 --> 04:16:34.760 the one that we can recognize, that we can identify. 4568 04:16:37.559 --> 04:16:39.399 Yeah, And that was kind of my argument to him, 4569 04:16:39.559 --> 04:16:43.399 was like, you know, where where are the bishops in 4570 04:16:43.520 --> 04:16:46.799 this so called invisible church? You know, where are the deacons, 4571 04:16:46.799 --> 04:16:49.959 where are the presbyters? Where is the authoritative like structure 4572 04:16:50.239 --> 04:16:52.239 that was set up and handed down? 4573 04:16:52.639 --> 04:16:53.239 Because it was. 4574 04:16:53.280 --> 04:16:56.440 Weird, like he did actually admit that he believes in 4575 04:16:56.600 --> 04:16:59.799 the handing down of the like laying on of hisns 4576 04:17:00.479 --> 04:17:03.840 and you know, the sort of Apostolic succession that we 4577 04:17:03.959 --> 04:17:06.120 as Orthodoxy might affirm. 4578 04:17:06.280 --> 04:17:08.600 He's like, oh, yeah, I believe in that. But then 4579 04:17:08.680 --> 04:17:10.319 when I'm like, okay, so where did that go? 4580 04:17:10.639 --> 04:17:12.479 Well, I mean, you can't believe in that and not 4581 04:17:12.600 --> 04:17:15.799 apply it to history, because it's a historical thing, just 4582 04:17:15.959 --> 04:17:19.280 like just like in numbers eleven, it's an actual historical 4583 04:17:19.440 --> 04:17:22.879 Israel that Moses is laying hands on people and the 4584 04:17:22.959 --> 04:17:25.799 spirit is being passed on, right, and he. 4585 04:17:26.120 --> 04:17:29.479 He was his argument was like, well, you know, eventually 4586 04:17:29.600 --> 04:17:32.639 it got you know, subverted, and then people took over. 4587 04:17:32.680 --> 04:17:35.000 Who were like, you know, anyway, well then then the 4588 04:17:35.319 --> 04:17:37.520 gates of alper bail against the church. Yeah, so this 4589 04:17:37.680 --> 04:17:41.639 is all the same kind of right, And we brought. 4590 04:17:41.520 --> 04:17:47.559 Up earlier in this Twitter space saying ignacious. 4591 04:17:47.680 --> 04:17:53.200 I'm trying to member his letter to one of his 4592 04:17:53.360 --> 04:17:56.920 letters forgive me says and. 4593 04:17:57.000 --> 04:18:02.360 Remember he's writing under apstock authority at the time, Saint 4594 04:18:02.440 --> 04:18:04.280 John and Polycarp. 4595 04:18:04.719 --> 04:18:08.879 That the church is where the bishop is. So I mean, 4596 04:18:08.920 --> 04:18:11.559 what is the Protestant going to say about about that? 4597 04:18:12.159 --> 04:18:13.159 They don't have any bishops. 4598 04:18:13.840 --> 04:18:17.559 Right, Well, I keep in mind you got your body. 4599 04:18:17.559 --> 04:18:21.159 There's kind of being inconsistent because there aren't any Protestants 4600 04:18:21.319 --> 04:18:25.399 that actually believe in a laying on of hands that's 4601 04:18:25.520 --> 04:18:28.639 historical that passes on the Holy Spirit. There's Protestants that 4602 04:18:28.639 --> 04:18:30.440 believe in laying on of hands, like the laying on 4603 04:18:30.520 --> 04:18:33.760 of hands of elders and Protestants and Presbyterianism and stuff, 4604 04:18:34.000 --> 04:18:36.440 but they do not believe that there's a transmission of 4605 04:18:36.520 --> 04:18:39.360 the gift of the Holy Spirit that's generation to generation. 4606 04:18:39.559 --> 04:18:41.680 That that's not something Protestants don't believe. 4607 04:18:42.399 --> 04:18:46.159 And I would suggest to Father Pomazanski in the Orthodox 4608 04:18:46.239 --> 04:18:48.360 Dogmatic Theology talks about this. 4609 04:18:50.959 --> 04:18:52.239 It makes a really good distinction. 4610 04:18:52.799 --> 04:18:55.920 So basically, in Protestant the laying on of hands is 4611 04:18:56.319 --> 04:19:00.280 a democratic election, and they do not believe any that 4612 04:19:00.479 --> 04:19:04.440 is supernatural. Yeah, if there's any supernatural grace, it's uh 4613 04:19:05.079 --> 04:19:09.600 or charisma that's conveyed through an authority or office. Because 4614 04:19:09.639 --> 04:19:12.239 in Protestantism mean I remember as a Lutheran. 4615 04:19:12.360 --> 04:19:20.040 Even the pastor they're basically elevated laity. It's like a yeah, 4616 04:19:20.239 --> 04:19:24.479 you might be called to is lady be an administrator or. 4617 04:19:24.520 --> 04:19:27.719 Something like that. But nobody's above any other. It's just 4618 04:19:27.799 --> 04:19:31.479 a call. There's no actual authority. There's there's no real 4619 04:19:31.639 --> 04:19:32.639 priesthood either. 4620 04:19:32.719 --> 04:19:36.159 There's no chad Mode is your ultimate natural pre workout 4621 04:19:36.559 --> 04:19:40.159 designed to take your performance to the next level. Chad 4622 04:19:40.239 --> 04:19:43.959 Mode is for natty beast. 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Like why do why am 4657 04:22:06.600 --> 04:22:09.799 I push into thinking that words just have one meaning? 4658 04:22:09.840 --> 04:22:13.479 Which is exactly why they have obviously father can only 4659 04:22:13.559 --> 04:22:17.719 have one meaning and call no man father, And I don't. 4660 04:22:17.559 --> 04:22:23.600 Know exactly I'm gonna have some theories why why they 4661 04:22:24.040 --> 04:22:31.159 struggle with this the idea that words could have multiple 4662 04:22:31.200 --> 04:22:36.079 meanings in different contexts. But what's your thoughts perhaps on 4663 04:22:37.719 --> 04:22:41.399 because I'm sure you've you've come across this. Words only 4664 04:22:41.479 --> 04:22:43.760 have one meaning. It means this, it means the word 4665 04:22:43.840 --> 04:22:45.479 means what it says, and it says what it means, 4666 04:22:45.520 --> 04:22:47.479 and it means what I obviously, whatever I say, not 4667 04:22:47.559 --> 04:22:48.040 what you say. 4668 04:22:51.319 --> 04:22:53.520 Yeah, are you asking me? Yeah? I'm just curious. 4669 04:22:54.200 --> 04:22:54.440 Yeah. 4670 04:22:55.200 --> 04:22:56.600 I think mostly it's. 4671 04:22:56.559 --> 04:23:00.959 Just due to like preconditioning and training from like Protestant 4672 04:23:01.079 --> 04:23:05.319 churches who sort of espouse these things like when Jesus 4673 04:23:05.360 --> 04:23:08.000 said to call no man father, he meant to call 4674 04:23:08.120 --> 04:23:10.120 no man father, you know, And it's like, well, they 4675 04:23:10.280 --> 04:23:14.319 make an exception for like your actual blood relative father, 4676 04:23:14.559 --> 04:23:18.239 but other than that, you know, it's like some you know, 4677 04:23:18.479 --> 04:23:21.719 sort of like dictation that he's making, like, oh, don't 4678 04:23:21.760 --> 04:23:24.840 ever call anyone else father. So I don't know, I 4679 04:23:24.879 --> 04:23:27.559 think it's just like I honestly think it's just due. 4680 04:23:27.440 --> 04:23:30.319 To like bad training from Protestant There's another one that 4681 04:23:30.399 --> 04:23:34.200 I found too, call no man Rocca fool. 4682 04:23:36.000 --> 04:23:38.079 Bible says calls all kinds of people full. 4683 04:23:38.280 --> 04:23:40.959 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good example. Yeah, Solomon calls 4684 04:23:41.000 --> 04:23:41.440 people fool. 4685 04:23:42.159 --> 04:23:46.799 Rabbis Well, yeah, well I'm wondering too. 4686 04:23:48.559 --> 04:23:53.559 So with the Reformers, you get kind of nominalism, and 4687 04:23:53.680 --> 04:23:57.959 you've seen stuff like this, and I'm wondering, if you know, 4688 04:23:58.000 --> 04:23:59.959 it's kind of I'm just speculating here, and it kind. 4689 04:23:59.879 --> 04:24:05.479 Of keeper level. Do some of those philosophical errors perhaps 4690 04:24:05.639 --> 04:24:09.159 condition influence them in a way to be conditioned to 4691 04:24:09.239 --> 04:24:11.040 think of Well, obviously words just have one me. 4692 04:24:12.719 --> 04:24:16.639 Because I believe in uniucacy and nominalism, and not that 4693 04:24:16.680 --> 04:24:18.879 these people are actually conscious of that, but the Reformers 4694 04:24:18.959 --> 04:24:19.520 definitely were. 4695 04:24:23.360 --> 04:24:25.239 Yeah, well, good questions. I'm going to move on here. 4696 04:24:25.280 --> 04:24:30.000 I appreciate that. So we're taking people who disagree tonight. 4697 04:24:30.120 --> 04:24:39.280 So it's people who have arguments disagreements. Mark. By the way, 4698 04:24:39.319 --> 04:24:42.040 here's the quote that Father Deacon was referring to. It's 4699 04:24:42.920 --> 04:24:47.319 ignacious Epistle to the Simernians, and it is chapter eight, 4700 04:24:47.600 --> 04:24:49.440 nothing to be done without the bishop. Where the bishop is, 4701 04:24:49.639 --> 04:24:54.920 there's the Eucharist, there is the Catholic Church. Yes, it's 4702 04:24:55.000 --> 04:24:59.239 exactly thing too, Mark, You and I'm mute. 4703 04:25:00.280 --> 04:25:00.840 Can you hear me? 4704 04:25:01.280 --> 04:25:01.479 Yeah? 4705 04:25:02.680 --> 04:25:03.000 Thanks? 4706 04:25:03.840 --> 04:25:04.040 Yeah. 4707 04:25:04.159 --> 04:25:04.680 So I'm like. 4708 04:25:06.319 --> 04:25:11.280 Like a Calvinistic, like Baptist kind of perspective, and I 4709 04:25:11.319 --> 04:25:13.319 don't have like an argument per se, but I just 4710 04:25:13.440 --> 04:25:17.040 kind of wanted to talk about like concupiscence. 4711 04:25:17.760 --> 04:25:22.200 And yeah, just because basically, so, yeah, basically. 4712 04:25:21.879 --> 04:25:24.559 I've been learning more about even just the Reformed and 4713 04:25:25.639 --> 04:25:29.639 Lutheran understanding. I know there's even like some differences between 4714 04:25:29.680 --> 04:25:34.000 different individuals and whatnot, But it seems like, at least 4715 04:25:35.319 --> 04:25:39.719 from what I can surmise that for the main difference 4716 04:25:39.760 --> 04:25:43.479 between the worth that the Worthodox position denies that concupisence 4717 04:25:43.639 --> 04:25:44.000 is sin. 4718 04:25:44.200 --> 04:25:44.559 Correct. 4719 04:25:44.760 --> 04:25:48.040 Yeah, because James says that desire when it has given, 4720 04:25:48.159 --> 04:25:50.479 when it is consented to, gives birth to sent So 4721 04:25:50.559 --> 04:25:53.360 the desire is not the sin. The consenting to the 4722 04:25:54.040 --> 04:25:55.360 passions is what the sin is? 4723 04:25:57.040 --> 04:25:57.760 Right, Okay? 4724 04:25:57.959 --> 04:26:01.079 And so then and then I so one thing that 4725 04:26:01.159 --> 04:26:04.479 I'm wondering is like, is I mean I read though 4726 04:26:05.159 --> 04:26:07.920 I actually have a copy of like the Orthodox Study Bible, 4727 04:26:08.799 --> 04:26:11.360 and I was looking at the some of the passages 4728 04:26:11.399 --> 04:26:15.280 on Roman seven. So I'm wondering, what is kind of 4729 04:26:15.360 --> 04:26:19.520 what is the understanding of the language of indwelling sin. 4730 04:26:20.920 --> 04:26:23.799 If it's not like you know, you're saying it's it's 4731 04:26:23.879 --> 04:26:24.120 not it. 4732 04:26:24.559 --> 04:26:27.879 So it can't be a literal thing that dwells because 4733 04:26:28.040 --> 04:26:31.159 everything that has existence or being is created by God, 4734 04:26:31.319 --> 04:26:33.760 and we know that God is not the creator of sin, 4735 04:26:34.280 --> 04:26:36.879 because it would be the Manichean position to say that 4736 04:26:36.920 --> 04:26:39.120 there's a substance or a thing that exists that is 4737 04:26:39.200 --> 04:26:43.079 called sin. So it's a man It's actually a Manichean position, right. 4738 04:26:43.239 --> 04:26:46.399 So yeah, And so one thing that I've seen is 4739 04:26:46.479 --> 04:26:48.559 I've been studying more of the at least some of 4740 04:26:48.600 --> 04:26:51.879 the Protestant people talking about it, is that they deny 4741 04:26:52.159 --> 04:26:55.559 that position. Like in the Book of Conquered, for example, 4742 04:26:55.680 --> 04:26:59.120 there's like a section about different like controversies that arose, 4743 04:26:59.200 --> 04:27:02.440 and one of them, it's called the flaking controversy where 4744 04:27:02.479 --> 04:27:05.719 the sky. Basically he was a Lutheran and he was 4745 04:27:05.879 --> 04:27:10.639 articulating that position that you just explained that that humans 4746 04:27:11.040 --> 04:27:16.200 in their substance are actually sinful and that you know, 4747 04:27:16.280 --> 04:27:18.360 we're made in the image of Satan after the fall 4748 04:27:18.440 --> 04:27:21.559 of crazy stuff, and that's like denied by the Lutherans. 4749 04:27:21.600 --> 04:27:23.600 Well, but even if they deny that, that doesn't mean 4750 04:27:23.600 --> 04:27:25.879 they're consistent because if you deny that, but then you 4751 04:27:25.920 --> 04:27:28.079 think that there's this thing called a law of sin 4752 04:27:28.799 --> 04:27:32.520 that's at work in you, then if then that means again, 4753 04:27:32.719 --> 04:27:34.840 sin is still something that's part of your nature. How 4754 04:27:34.920 --> 04:27:36.600 can sin be something that's in nature? 4755 04:27:37.520 --> 04:27:40.520 Okay, okay, so kind of so am I So, just 4756 04:27:40.639 --> 04:27:43.879 to clarify what you're saying, you're saying that even if 4757 04:27:43.959 --> 04:27:46.719 they say that that they say it's just accidental, they're 4758 04:27:46.760 --> 04:27:49.399 being inconsistent because of the way they talk about it. 4759 04:27:50.200 --> 04:27:51.239 Is that kind of what you mean? 4760 04:27:51.399 --> 04:27:55.399 Well, I mean yeah, I mean conceivably any specific individual 4761 04:27:55.440 --> 04:27:58.920 Protestant could have all manner positions. But in the case 4762 04:27:59.000 --> 04:28:03.479 of Lutherans, I mean they understand their theology at times 4763 04:28:03.559 --> 04:28:06.559 departs from Luther himself, because Luther said man is an 4764 04:28:06.639 --> 04:28:09.200 ass that's ridden either by God or by the devil. 4765 04:28:09.799 --> 04:28:12.079 If you read Bondage of the Will, Luther basically says 4766 04:28:12.159 --> 04:28:14.680 that we're just basically sin machines. That's all we do 4767 04:28:14.840 --> 04:28:18.520 is sin. It's even more radical than Calvin's told a 4768 04:28:18.600 --> 04:28:22.200 privity position. So, I mean they can say one thing, 4769 04:28:22.360 --> 04:28:25.440 but I think the key issue to refuting this is 4770 04:28:25.559 --> 04:28:28.079 not so much worrying about like going into Roman seven 4771 04:28:28.200 --> 04:28:31.079 or whatever, because Roman seven for us, as Paul, is 4772 04:28:31.200 --> 04:28:33.840 using an analogy of something that's a law that's at 4773 04:28:33.879 --> 04:28:36.280 work or a principle that's at work in my members, 4774 04:28:36.639 --> 04:28:40.799 meaning that I have this tendency to go against God's 4775 04:28:40.879 --> 04:28:42.920 law and to do things that are wrong. But that 4776 04:28:42.959 --> 04:28:45.639 doesn't make my nature or my body bad. It just 4777 04:28:45.760 --> 04:28:48.879 means that I have a tendency to commit an action 4778 04:28:49.079 --> 04:28:52.200 of will that is a sin. For us, sin is 4779 04:28:52.280 --> 04:28:54.639 not a state of being. It's not a thing. It's 4780 04:28:54.719 --> 04:28:56.959 always an act of the will against the good or 4781 04:28:56.959 --> 04:28:59.120 against God's law. That's all I can ever be. And 4782 04:28:59.200 --> 04:29:01.319 so the Church Father's it's defined sin as somethody that's 4783 04:29:01.319 --> 04:29:04.079 a privation. It's not a thing, because anything that has 4784 04:29:04.200 --> 04:29:07.319 being or substance is something that God created. Our Nature's created. 4785 04:29:07.680 --> 04:29:10.200 We have a being, we have substance, we have a will, 4786 04:29:10.280 --> 04:29:12.840 we have desires, and God gave us those things so 4787 04:29:12.879 --> 04:29:15.479 they could never inherently be sin. And I think that's 4788 04:29:15.520 --> 04:29:17.479 the point that that we see sin as an action 4789 04:29:17.559 --> 04:29:18.680 of the will and not a state of being. 4790 04:29:19.920 --> 04:29:26.399 Okay, okay, Yeah that makes sense. So yeah, okay. 4791 04:29:26.760 --> 04:29:29.559 Another another thing that I was kind of curious about 4792 04:29:29.639 --> 04:29:33.680 along the same lines or just trying to get understand more, 4793 04:29:33.840 --> 04:29:39.280 is okay or yeah, basically I know you it's your 4794 04:29:39.319 --> 04:29:43.600 guys view that that tendency to sin, even though it's 4795 04:29:43.719 --> 04:29:47.200 not sin itself, it's not something that like inhres and 4796 04:29:47.840 --> 04:29:52.479 in our substance for that proclivity to sin that happens 4797 04:29:52.559 --> 04:30:00.280 because of the fall, right, yes, okay, okay, and so okay, yeah, 4798 04:30:00.319 --> 04:30:03.520 that was just clarification I want, okay, So, and I 4799 04:30:03.639 --> 04:30:06.879 know that it's your guy's position that you deny like 4800 04:30:07.000 --> 04:30:10.440 any kind of imputed guilt from Adam correct. 4801 04:30:11.159 --> 04:30:14.639 Right, guilt cannot be a state of being because guilt 4802 04:30:14.719 --> 04:30:17.920 has only had through individual actions or what we call 4803 04:30:18.000 --> 04:30:20.360 actual sins. So we agree with the Roman Catholics on 4804 04:30:20.440 --> 04:30:22.280 this point that sin is an action of the will, 4805 04:30:22.360 --> 04:30:24.959 is not a state of being. Okay, it could never 4806 04:30:25.000 --> 04:30:27.280 be something that you inherit. In fact, that's why Ezekiel 4807 04:30:27.319 --> 04:30:29.200 says that the sin the father should not be put 4808 04:30:29.239 --> 04:30:30.840 to death for the sense the son should not be 4809 04:30:30.879 --> 04:30:31.920 to put the death in sins of the father. 4810 04:30:32.760 --> 04:30:35.399 Yeah, okay, And I wanted to bring up that Ezekiel 4811 04:30:35.680 --> 04:30:40.239 eighteen passage because because I know that the Orthodox kind 4812 04:30:40.280 --> 04:30:44.879 of talk more about death as like something that we 4813 04:30:45.000 --> 04:30:48.399 all will die because of Adam sin, even though we're 4814 04:30:48.440 --> 04:30:50.600 not all guilty because of Adam sin. 4815 04:30:50.840 --> 04:30:51.159 Correct. 4816 04:30:51.760 --> 04:30:54.559 But I guess what I'm wondering is, how does that 4817 04:30:54.879 --> 04:30:56.879 if like the way that at least kind of going 4818 04:30:56.959 --> 04:30:59.719 off that Ezekiel passage, it makes it seem as if 4819 04:30:59.799 --> 04:31:03.840 like death is a penalty for people committing sin. 4820 04:31:04.600 --> 04:31:07.120 So how do you understand the fact that everyone dies 4821 04:31:07.280 --> 04:31:08.840 even though not everyone is guilty. 4822 04:31:09.200 --> 04:31:12.000 Well, in the same way that if a mom has 4823 04:31:12.040 --> 04:31:16.000 a child and she's you know, she drinks alcohol, the 4824 04:31:16.200 --> 04:31:18.879 child hat well, it can be born with fetal alcohol syndrome, 4825 04:31:18.959 --> 04:31:20.920 but he's not guilty of sin. So he has the 4826 04:31:21.000 --> 04:31:23.600 consequences of the mother's sin, but that doesn't mean he's 4827 04:31:23.639 --> 04:31:25.639 guilty for the action of the mom's sin. Even though 4828 04:31:25.639 --> 04:31:29.360 he experiences the consequences. If somebody poisons my talent with 4829 04:31:29.520 --> 04:31:32.680 fentanyl in the water and everybody becomes drug addicts, it's 4830 04:31:32.760 --> 04:31:35.239 not their fault. They are not guilty of being drug 4831 04:31:35.239 --> 04:31:38.479 addicts because someone because the effects of somebody's sins hit them. 4832 04:31:38.840 --> 04:31:41.440 So in the same way, we feel the effects of 4833 04:31:41.479 --> 04:31:44.440 adam sin, but we're not guilty for his sin. We 4834 04:31:44.520 --> 04:31:46.920 are guilty for the sins that we individually commit. But 4835 04:31:47.879 --> 04:31:50.959 great questions. I appreciate that we're going to move on 4836 04:31:51.159 --> 04:32:00.719 to dominic if you want a full treatment of like 4837 04:32:00.760 --> 04:32:03.520 the Protestant Calvinist position. Again, as we talked about earlier 4838 04:32:03.559 --> 04:32:06.760 in Tonight's Dream, I did on my clips channel a 4839 04:32:06.840 --> 04:32:12.639 really lengthy two part discussion with Sam Chamoun on Calvinism, 4840 04:32:12.719 --> 04:32:14.600 and I did one with Church of the Eternal Logos 4841 04:32:14.680 --> 04:32:31.000 on Calvinism. Go ahead, dominic dominic Cabralukay, Yeah, I'd like. 4842 04:32:31.079 --> 04:32:35.000 To discuss free grace theology. Okay. 4843 04:32:35.120 --> 04:32:39.360 So Roumins four is kind of contradicting James too, because 4844 04:32:39.440 --> 04:32:42.280 you see it says if Abraham were justified by works, 4845 04:32:42.319 --> 04:32:44.760 he had went off to glory, but not before God 4846 04:32:44.840 --> 04:32:46.079 for what saved the scriptures. 4847 04:32:46.120 --> 04:32:47.120 Abraham believed God. 4848 04:32:48.559 --> 04:32:50.639 You're just why do you assume it's a contradiction. Maybe 4849 04:32:50.680 --> 04:32:52.319 it's your interpretation that's wrong. 4850 04:32:53.399 --> 04:32:55.280 But because it says on verse four and now to 4851 04:32:55.399 --> 04:32:56.920 him that works there, So. 4852 04:32:56.920 --> 04:32:59.600 It's your interpretation that's wrong. It's not a contradiction, it's 4853 04:32:59.600 --> 04:33:00.360 your inter utation. 4854 04:33:03.079 --> 04:33:03.520 Okay. 4855 04:33:03.680 --> 04:33:07.680 I see what about Romans four or five that says 4856 04:33:07.799 --> 04:33:09.240 the unrighteous. 4857 04:33:08.720 --> 04:33:09.360 That count on. 4858 04:33:10.840 --> 04:33:14.520 Don Jesus Christ will his faith is counted for righteousness. 4859 04:33:16.000 --> 04:33:18.880 Yeah, but faith, according to Paul, has to be living 4860 04:33:18.959 --> 04:33:21.880 and active and working through love to count. So what 4861 04:33:22.080 --> 04:33:23.240 kind of faith are you talking about? 4862 04:33:27.400 --> 04:33:30.520 Well, I mean just basically a working faith that I 4863 04:33:31.040 --> 04:33:34.319 would say is okay. So I would say the basis 4864 04:33:34.439 --> 04:33:37.520 to be saved is at least having faith in Jesus Christ, 4865 04:33:38.200 --> 04:33:40.560 because you know, everyone knows the Ephesians two a nine 4866 04:33:41.520 --> 04:33:42.360 it says, you know, no. 4867 04:33:42.720 --> 04:33:44.599 Yeah, But so all of this is right, But all 4868 04:33:44.639 --> 04:33:46.319 of this is just based on the Protestant picking and 4869 04:33:46.439 --> 04:33:49.400 choosing of certain verses to ignoring all the other verses. 4870 04:33:49.439 --> 04:33:51.720 Where when I'm asking about what kind of faith, Paul says, 4871 04:33:51.959 --> 04:33:55.119 faith worketh by love. That's what counts. The faith that 4872 04:33:55.279 --> 04:33:58.479 is working. So it can't just be this mental rational 4873 04:33:58.599 --> 04:34:03.919 notional faith, believing that you know, Jesus is the Savior, 4874 04:34:04.000 --> 04:34:06.720 and he imputes grace to me like Protestants think. Because again, 4875 04:34:06.799 --> 04:34:09.560 in many places, Paul specifies that his faith working. So 4876 04:34:10.159 --> 04:34:13.080 Paul himself says, it's faith that works by love, which 4877 04:34:13.159 --> 04:34:15.319 is exactly what James is saying. So it's not there's 4878 04:34:15.360 --> 04:34:18.040 no contradiction. I'm mad. What's up? 4879 04:34:22.159 --> 04:34:25.279 Hello? Can you hear me? 4880 04:34:25.959 --> 04:34:26.279 I can't? 4881 04:34:27.360 --> 04:34:30.479 All right, I just had a quick question regarding the Trinity. 4882 04:34:30.680 --> 04:34:35.520 If that's okay with you? So Stovias Hippo when he 4883 04:34:35.599 --> 04:34:39.400 says in on the Doctrine Book one, chapter five, at 4884 04:34:39.439 --> 04:34:40.680 the Father and the Son. 4885 04:34:40.799 --> 04:34:44.200 Cold on the Trinity or in Kridean on Christian Doctrine, 4886 04:34:44.200 --> 04:34:45.840 which book are you satting on? 4887 04:34:45.919 --> 04:34:51.240 The Christian doctor in Gridian on the on the Doctrine 4888 04:34:51.840 --> 04:34:56.279 in Caridean, Yes, okay, go ahead. 4889 04:34:57.319 --> 04:34:59.040 So when he says that the Father and the Son 4890 04:34:59.119 --> 04:35:02.520 the Holy Spirit each at individually substance would just be 4891 04:35:02.639 --> 04:35:06.279 talked about first substance or second substance, I. 4892 04:35:06.279 --> 04:35:08.159 Don't know what you mean first or second substance. I 4893 04:35:08.200 --> 04:35:09.040 don't know what you're talking about. 4894 04:35:09.360 --> 04:35:11.599 Yeah, So, like Arizona metaphysics, he puts the primary. 4895 04:35:11.759 --> 04:35:14.479 Augustine is not going to be using Aristotelian metaphysics. 4896 04:35:15.400 --> 04:35:17.880 Yeah, so no, this is what it means. Going to 4897 04:35:17.959 --> 04:35:19.599 hypothesis of three persons. 4898 04:35:19.880 --> 04:35:22.159 He's not going to be using Aristotylian metaphysics. 4899 04:35:22.479 --> 04:35:25.360 Yeah. The metaphysics he's using, No, it's not. 4900 04:35:26.240 --> 04:35:29.360 Okay, what is it based on platonism and neoplatonism? 4901 04:35:30.240 --> 04:35:34.040 Okay, so tell me what this means? Three three companies? 4902 04:35:34.119 --> 04:35:36.159 Hold on, Let me let me where I'm at the 4903 04:35:36.240 --> 04:35:37.240 Encoreadian Which chapter? 4904 04:35:38.439 --> 04:35:41.799 Uh, it's going to be book one, chapter five? 4905 04:35:48.840 --> 04:35:51.680 Does it start moreover? The mind has been imbued with 4906 04:35:51.759 --> 04:35:54.840 the first elements of faith? Is that what you're talking about? No, 4907 04:35:56.040 --> 04:35:57.439 because you're talking about different work. 4908 04:35:58.599 --> 04:36:02.520 Yeah, it's on the doc three. That's that's the work name. 4909 04:36:09.240 --> 04:36:09.880 Okay, I got it. 4910 04:36:10.840 --> 04:36:14.520 So would you name these three coupley substances would be concrete, 4911 04:36:14.560 --> 04:36:15.200 dre abstract. 4912 04:36:17.880 --> 04:36:18.360 Let me let me. 4913 04:36:18.479 --> 04:36:22.799 I'm going to hold on. So chapter book one, Chapter five, 4914 04:36:22.880 --> 04:36:24.799 The Trinity, the true object of enjoyment. 4915 04:36:26.360 --> 04:36:29.159 I'm assuming it you should talk about ecept the three 4916 04:36:29.240 --> 04:36:31.919 of them. They're try you. It goes about pyr coursis 4917 04:36:32.080 --> 04:36:33.240 was about consequentiality? 4918 04:36:33.720 --> 04:36:36.520 Does it? Does it begin? The true objects? Of enjoyment 4919 04:36:36.560 --> 04:36:37.919 in our Father, son and Holy Spirit? 4920 04:36:38.000 --> 04:36:43.000 Is that it? I'm pretty sure? I mean, do you 4921 04:36:43.080 --> 04:36:43.279 have it? 4922 04:36:43.400 --> 04:36:44.200 Or I don't understand? 4923 04:36:45.439 --> 04:36:48.439 It's not with Marna, So it's care to ask you? Yeah? 4924 04:36:48.599 --> 04:36:51.439 Ok, fair enough? Okay, so I have it pulled up. 4925 04:36:51.479 --> 04:36:52.319 And then what's the question? 4926 04:36:53.000 --> 04:36:55.520 Yes, I was asking, so the three the three couple 4927 04:36:55.520 --> 04:36:58.400 of substances, right, so you know obviously some people can 4928 04:36:58.479 --> 04:37:01.159 interpret diferent right, So I was wondering what the correct 4929 04:37:01.279 --> 04:37:04.319 the pradition is like? Would it be concrete through substances 4930 04:37:04.560 --> 04:37:06.520 or to be abstract through substances? 4931 04:37:07.520 --> 04:37:11.080 It's neither one because that terminology isn't applicable to the trinity. 4932 04:37:11.520 --> 04:37:14.599 There are three hypostases with one essence, so that it 4933 04:37:14.639 --> 04:37:16.520 has nothing to do with abstract or concrete. 4934 04:37:16.959 --> 04:37:20.959 Yeah, are you with what concrete is? In? 4935 04:37:21.159 --> 04:37:24.360 Whose philosophy? You keep asking about Aristotle? And Augustine is. 4936 04:37:24.360 --> 04:37:27.479 Not influenced by the basic is the basic categorism met 4937 04:37:27.479 --> 04:37:30.400 pphysics of who of Aristotle? 4938 04:37:30.720 --> 04:37:33.080 Why do you keep asking Aristotal questions when he's not 4939 04:37:33.400 --> 04:37:35.119 influenced by Aristotle and. 4940 04:37:35.200 --> 04:37:38.119 The Plato and Ariosota they complement each other, for. 4941 04:37:38.119 --> 04:37:40.560 Example, but Augustine is not influenced by Aristotle. So it 4942 04:37:40.599 --> 04:37:43.919 has nothing to do with that. You said, that's hypostasis 4943 04:37:44.040 --> 04:37:48.080 in Christian theology, is not. The closest equivalent is Aristotle's 4944 04:37:48.080 --> 04:37:50.479 notion of the individual the agent. 4945 04:37:51.599 --> 04:37:55.080 Okay, so the agent. So we see the three hypotheses, 4946 04:37:55.119 --> 04:37:56.360 the unified to one agent. 4947 04:37:56.279 --> 04:38:00.000 Or no, three agents with one essence. 4948 04:38:00.599 --> 04:38:02.720 Three agents, one essence. And would you say that your 4949 04:38:02.759 --> 04:38:06.599 God's peer act. No, you wouldn't say about peer act. 4950 04:38:07.000 --> 04:38:09.200 Now we're not a Riskitilians like, so you're trying to 4951 04:38:09.720 --> 04:38:11.880 Are you a Muslim that's trying to understand this stuff? 4952 04:38:13.360 --> 04:38:13.560 Yeah? 4953 04:38:14.639 --> 04:38:16.720 Okay, so but you have no idea what you're dealing with. 4954 04:38:16.840 --> 04:38:19.479 You're trying to import these ideas from systems that you 4955 04:38:20.080 --> 04:38:22.599 have nothing to do with what Augustin is talking about. 4956 04:38:22.720 --> 04:38:24.799 No, no, no, I'm an only ext Christian went to 4957 04:38:25.759 --> 04:38:26.400 Christian academy. 4958 04:38:26.599 --> 04:38:29.520 So that doesn't mean you know what you're talking about 4959 04:38:29.560 --> 04:38:32.759 because you went to a Christian academy for sure. So 4960 04:38:32.919 --> 04:38:34.599 well then if you knew, if you knew Christian, then 4961 04:38:34.599 --> 04:38:36.639 you would know that that Orthodox are not going to 4962 04:38:36.680 --> 04:38:37.439 say God's. 4963 04:38:38.680 --> 04:38:42.400 You hold a Parlemist rights. So in chapter seven Deeds 4964 04:38:42.439 --> 04:38:44.000 of the Hunt of the chapters, we said that God 4965 04:38:44.080 --> 04:38:45.919 is in natural beings. I mean, that's his energy. The 4966 04:38:46.000 --> 04:38:48.040 mythics would be slow down. 4967 04:38:48.040 --> 04:38:50.279 I've read one hundred fifty chapters. What slow down? What 4968 04:38:50.360 --> 04:38:50.680 are you say? 4969 04:38:51.200 --> 04:38:53.560 Chapter seventy eight, what about you the chapters? 4970 04:38:54.200 --> 04:38:57.520 He says that God I mean is mythics because the 4971 04:38:57.720 --> 04:38:59.520 energy can be normally referred as to God as well. 4972 04:39:00.159 --> 04:39:04.799 God is the nature of all beings, meaning that's his operations. 4973 04:39:05.040 --> 04:39:09.720 Is nature, and just obviously Tellio's nature, he substantial nature, 4974 04:39:10.200 --> 04:39:10.840 essential nature. 4975 04:39:11.000 --> 04:39:13.080 To slow down and stop trying to play word games. 4976 04:39:14.000 --> 04:39:14.919 Is games. 4977 04:39:16.479 --> 04:39:18.400 I'm pulling up one hundred fifty chapters and you're reading 4978 04:39:18.439 --> 04:39:19.000 it super fast. 4979 04:39:19.040 --> 04:39:21.840 Which one chapter seventy sir? 4980 04:39:22.880 --> 04:39:32.119 What seventy eight? Yes, sir, God's nature is utterly remote. 4981 04:39:32.159 --> 04:39:34.400 This is talking about apathetic theology. So what's your point? 4982 04:39:35.040 --> 04:39:37.080 Yeah, so so you go to apathetic theology, right, and 4983 04:39:37.200 --> 04:39:38.799 so with God is a nature of all beings. 4984 04:39:39.439 --> 04:39:41.040 God is not the nature of beings. So you have 4985 04:39:41.080 --> 04:39:43.240 no idea what you're talking about. You know, we're not pantheus. 4986 04:39:43.319 --> 04:39:47.880 No he's not. No, he's not the uncreated nature is 4987 04:39:47.959 --> 04:39:49.720 not the nature of created beings. 4988 04:39:50.200 --> 04:39:52.680 J He says in chapter seventy I have it in 4989 04:39:52.720 --> 04:39:53.119 front of me. 4990 04:39:53.840 --> 04:39:56.919 It's talking about God's uncreated nature, which is not the 4991 04:39:57.000 --> 04:40:00.840 nature of created beings. No, no orthodoxy thedox person believes that. 4992 04:40:00.919 --> 04:40:03.759 That's ridiculous. Why are you saying this? You think we 4993 04:40:03.799 --> 04:40:04.880 don't know our own theology? 4994 04:40:05.560 --> 04:40:08.919 No, No, greg good pelancy obviously offer Koreish exideal if 4995 04:40:08.959 --> 04:40:12.119 you see that teleological nature of God's identical to all 4996 04:40:12.200 --> 04:40:13.279 beings of nature. 4997 04:40:13.200 --> 04:40:15.959 No, it's not the nature of God is not the 4998 04:40:16.520 --> 04:40:17.560 nature of created beings. 4999 04:40:17.799 --> 04:40:19.959 Hey, do you have the crew translation I have? 5000 04:40:20.599 --> 04:40:22.840 Like you know, you don't know the correct You're a Muslim? 5001 04:40:22.919 --> 04:40:25.840 What are you talking about? I have it in front 5002 04:40:25.880 --> 04:40:26.439 of me right here. 5003 04:40:27.240 --> 04:40:30.639 Listen, I'm a Muslim, but I but you have no idea? 5004 04:40:30.680 --> 04:40:32.919 What Christian do you think? The Christian theology teaches that 5005 04:40:33.000 --> 04:40:35.200 God's nature is the nature of creative beings. 5006 04:40:35.240 --> 04:40:36.720 It's not what I'm teaching. 5007 04:40:38.119 --> 04:40:39.759 I have it in front of me. He does not 5008 04:40:39.919 --> 04:40:43.799 say that as well. Well, but yeah, but you guys 5009 04:40:43.919 --> 04:40:47.479 are commit takia and lie. So that's that's not what 5010 04:40:47.599 --> 04:40:48.200 he says. 5011 04:40:49.479 --> 04:40:56.680 As I committed correct as who holds I do? 5012 04:40:57.200 --> 04:41:00.919 Here we go with the Arabic bullshitting out the Arabic 5013 04:41:01.040 --> 04:41:03.319 term then nobody that doesn't impress of anybody over here. 5014 04:41:03.599 --> 04:41:05.439 We don't care that you spin out Arabic terms. 5015 04:41:06.080 --> 04:41:10.840 I'm sorry, sir, but you hold to antitosis. Correct. 5016 04:41:11.560 --> 04:41:14.520 Every nature is utterly remote and absolutely estranged from the 5017 04:41:14.560 --> 04:41:17.680 divine nature. The very first sentence in this paragraph refutes 5018 04:41:17.720 --> 04:41:18.919 this idiocy of what you're saying. 5019 04:41:19.759 --> 04:41:25.840 Okay, okay, so okay, yeah, So if you go down, 5020 04:41:26.000 --> 04:41:27.680 he says, this too is a wisdom of goodness. And 5021 04:41:27.720 --> 04:41:30.240 simply all the erycip of God or of God will 5022 04:41:30.479 --> 04:41:33.840 also the saint's falling theology. And since the God also 5023 04:41:33.959 --> 04:41:35.479 called the nature all of beings as. 5024 04:41:35.360 --> 04:41:37.880 He of all that you partake in the methics. 5025 04:41:37.599 --> 04:41:40.240 Of it is, you're not you're you're not even you're 5026 04:41:40.279 --> 04:41:44.439 not even reading it. You're like spitting your It says 5027 04:41:44.479 --> 04:41:46.639 he is the very listen. It says, he is the 5028 04:41:46.840 --> 04:41:50.000 very being of beings, and the form in the forms 5029 04:41:50.159 --> 04:41:52.040 as the primal form in the wisdom. That means he's 5030 04:41:52.080 --> 04:41:54.599 the source and the archetype of the created or order. 5031 04:41:55.720 --> 04:41:58.720 So is essence identical to nature linguistically? 5032 04:41:59.520 --> 04:42:05.319 Yes, okay, so God's essence is the same as his nature. 5033 04:42:06.799 --> 04:42:10.319 I never asked you just asked me if it was 5034 04:42:10.360 --> 04:42:10.599 the same. 5035 04:42:10.680 --> 04:42:12.279 What do you mean You never asked so, So. 5036 04:42:12.720 --> 04:42:16.400 It's telos identical to essence teleos. 5037 04:42:16.599 --> 04:42:19.319 That's purpose, dude, what are you talking about? No, purpose 5038 04:42:19.439 --> 04:42:20.720 is not nature, dummy. 5039 04:42:21.080 --> 04:42:24.360 Yes, telogical nature tilos. 5040 04:42:25.400 --> 04:42:26.919 No, you don't even know. There's no such thing as 5041 04:42:26.959 --> 04:42:32.159 teleos teleological nature. Tilos is purpose. No, there's not. You 5042 04:42:32.200 --> 04:42:34.159 don't even. You don't know these terms, dude, You have 5043 04:42:34.240 --> 04:42:37.319 no idea what you're talking about. What do you think? 5044 04:42:37.959 --> 04:42:40.200 Do you listen? Listen to me, I'm telling you are theology. 5045 04:42:40.400 --> 04:42:42.799 Telos is purpose. It's not a nature. 5046 04:42:43.959 --> 04:42:46.119 Yeah, it's not a nature. Nobody said it's a nature. 5047 04:42:46.159 --> 04:42:48.560 You just said teleological nature. 5048 04:42:49.720 --> 04:42:53.439 Teleological nature. You just said that actual purpose. 5049 04:42:54.279 --> 04:42:58.520 There's are you not teleos? You don't even you're not 5050 04:42:58.560 --> 04:43:03.080 even saying it right. Oh man, God's nature is not 5051 04:43:03.240 --> 04:43:04.680 a teleological nature. 5052 04:43:05.040 --> 04:43:06.560 Okay, okay. 5053 04:43:08.080 --> 04:43:13.279 Seventy eight verse, The very first sentence says, the very 5054 04:43:13.360 --> 04:43:16.200 first sentence, the very first sentence says that you're lying 5055 04:43:16.319 --> 04:43:18.639 about all this passage. You're lying? Why are you lying 5056 04:43:18.639 --> 04:43:19.200 about this past? 5057 04:43:19.279 --> 04:43:19.319 Like? 5058 04:43:19.360 --> 04:43:19.880 What do you like? 5059 04:43:21.159 --> 04:43:24.000 Who told you this? So your your control f searching? 5060 04:43:24.080 --> 04:43:27.840 You haven't actually read this word? Yeah, it's in front 5061 04:43:27.840 --> 04:43:31.040 of everybody. It doesn't say that God's nature is created nature. 5062 04:43:31.200 --> 04:43:33.319 It says the very first sentence says the opposite of that, 5063 04:43:34.040 --> 04:43:35.279 I don't care what you have in front of you. 5064 04:43:36.919 --> 04:43:37.119 The what. 5065 04:43:38.919 --> 04:43:40.599 Nobody cares what you have in front of you? 5066 04:43:41.439 --> 04:43:42.639 All right, sir, sir? 5067 04:43:43.279 --> 04:43:44.439 Question sir, sir? 5068 04:43:46.639 --> 04:43:49.599 So so your correct obviously. 5069 04:43:52.759 --> 04:43:55.200 Is so this is the dumbest like, so is this 5070 04:43:55.360 --> 04:43:57.520 your new plan of attack? But let's talk about Islam first. 5071 04:43:57.560 --> 04:44:00.279 You want to talk about Islam? You just want wanna 5072 04:44:00.520 --> 04:44:02.560 You want to go through text that you don't even understand. 5073 04:44:02.560 --> 04:44:06.639 You don't want me to talk about as long? Now wait, sir, wait, sir, wait, sir? 5074 04:44:08.799 --> 04:44:12.479 Does it say yeah, I know it like I don't 5075 04:44:12.520 --> 04:44:16.119 know Calciton. Yeah, he is not nature because he is 5076 04:44:16.200 --> 04:44:20.240 beyond all nature. Do you see that you just said 5077 04:44:20.240 --> 04:44:21.680 he you just said he has nature. 5078 04:44:22.799 --> 04:44:24.479 I'm on my phone. I can't see your life stream, 5079 04:44:24.479 --> 04:44:25.279 but I have the skin right here. 5080 04:44:25.400 --> 04:44:26.799 I'm reading. I don't want to talk about the skin. 5081 04:44:26.919 --> 04:44:28.080 I'm reading it to you right here. 5082 04:44:28.560 --> 04:44:33.040 Translation, Sahi, you. 5083 04:44:34.560 --> 04:44:36.159 You think these are these are hot deeths? 5084 04:44:37.639 --> 04:44:38.119 How do you know? 5085 04:44:38.200 --> 04:44:40.240 You don't you don't know our theology? How do you 5086 04:44:40.319 --> 04:44:42.720 know you have the right translation. I'm I'm at a 5087 04:44:42.759 --> 04:44:46.319 freaking Orthodox website. What are you talking about. We're not 5088 04:44:46.360 --> 04:44:49.159 gonna listen to you lying Muslims about our palam Mos. 5089 04:44:49.240 --> 04:44:51.360 Come on, hi, sir. 5090 04:44:51.599 --> 04:44:53.560 So I just wanted to ask you a quick You're 5091 04:44:53.599 --> 04:44:54.080 just trolling. 5092 04:44:54.200 --> 04:44:56.319 You're a lying troll. Give me, give me a break. 5093 04:44:56.319 --> 04:44:57.119 You're a lying troll. 5094 04:44:58.119 --> 04:44:58.799 No, don't kick me. 5095 04:44:59.240 --> 04:45:01.200 You want to qush to You don't want to just 5096 04:45:01.240 --> 04:45:03.520 ask questions. You came here to lie. So you didn't 5097 04:45:03.599 --> 04:45:07.279 know what you thought as you thought Augustine wasn't Aristotilian. 5098 04:45:07.439 --> 04:45:10.720 You thought Augusta wasn't Aristotilian first, and now you're saying 5099 04:45:10.759 --> 04:45:13.000 that you thought that you thought Gregory Palamas says that 5100 04:45:13.080 --> 04:45:15.080 God's nature is the nature of all creation? 5101 04:45:16.360 --> 04:45:18.400 All right? Did do you hold a physicism? Sir? 5102 04:45:18.720 --> 04:45:19.080 Of course? 5103 04:45:20.720 --> 04:45:23.520 Okay, So why you say that you didn't You didn't 5104 04:45:23.520 --> 04:45:24.119 know what that was. 5105 04:45:24.680 --> 04:45:26.040 I didn't say I didn't know what that was. It 5106 04:45:26.119 --> 04:45:28.599 means two nature's uh huh? 5107 04:45:29.119 --> 04:45:33.439 Okay, so you holted it. Of course. 5108 04:45:33.479 --> 04:45:36.319 Saint Cyril teaches the communication of properties. Every Orthodox person 5109 04:45:36.360 --> 04:45:36.720 believes that. 5110 04:45:37.400 --> 04:45:39.000 Yeah, but that's Western theology. 5111 04:45:39.279 --> 04:45:41.680 No, it's not. It's from Saint Cyril, You retard. St. 5112 04:45:41.720 --> 04:45:46.319 Cyril is not a Western theologian. It's from Cyril. You 5113 04:45:46.400 --> 04:45:48.840 said it's Western theology, so you have no idea what 5114 04:45:48.919 --> 04:45:49.639 you're talking about? 5115 04:45:50.400 --> 04:45:52.639 Are you saints of Eastern. 5116 04:45:55.319 --> 04:46:03.759 It's the stupidest shit I've ever heard, Dave Saint Cyril 5117 04:46:03.840 --> 04:46:08.680 of Western theology. Please clip that. That's the stupidest Muslim 5118 04:46:08.680 --> 04:46:11.599 ever who thought he was being sophisticated and smart by 5119 04:46:11.680 --> 04:46:13.720 talking fast and spitting out a bunch of terms that 5120 04:46:13.799 --> 04:46:15.319 he thought I didn't know, Like I didn't know what 5121 04:46:15.400 --> 04:46:18.360 community castio modius. Did we lecture through Cyril over here? 5122 04:46:19.240 --> 04:46:22.439 Like we've debated the Orientals? You think I've read tons 5123 04:46:22.479 --> 04:46:24.080 of Cyril? What are you talking about? 5124 04:46:24.479 --> 04:46:27.680 I'm you, hey, Ja, what's up? 5125 04:46:30.319 --> 04:46:30.720 What's up? 5126 04:46:32.959 --> 04:46:35.840 Hey? Hey? I was just gonna ask a question. 5127 04:46:36.000 --> 04:46:40.720 Maybe disagreement, I don't know, But what's the Orthodox view 5128 04:46:40.799 --> 04:46:42.479 on libertarian free will? 5129 04:46:43.040 --> 04:46:44.319 Would would you say? We hope to that? 5130 04:46:47.000 --> 04:46:49.959 I mean, we believe in the Patristic sense of free will? 5131 04:46:50.080 --> 04:46:53.119 So I don't know if that translates to quote libertarian 5132 04:46:53.200 --> 04:46:56.040 free will and some Enlightenment model. 5133 04:46:57.279 --> 04:47:02.759 Okay, what about so mean? And I've heard that the Patristic. 5134 04:47:04.159 --> 04:47:05.919 Version of free will is the idea that you can 5135 04:47:06.159 --> 04:47:07.599 choose between multiple goods? 5136 04:47:07.720 --> 04:47:08.200 Is that greg? 5137 04:47:10.119 --> 04:47:13.919 I mean, that's the argument of Saint Maximus about the 5138 04:47:14.080 --> 04:47:18.240 Escaton for why free will is not a something that's 5139 04:47:18.759 --> 04:47:20.040 just about the fallen state. 5140 04:47:21.200 --> 04:47:23.880 What do you think about the argument that free will 5141 04:47:23.959 --> 04:47:26.560 seems to entail, or at least the ability that our 5142 04:47:26.599 --> 04:47:31.119 actions needed can for our actions to be morally praiseworthy, 5143 04:47:31.639 --> 04:47:34.759 that you need to be able to choose between good 5144 04:47:34.799 --> 04:47:35.240 and evil. 5145 04:47:40.119 --> 04:47:43.680 I'm not sure that it's necessary, because Adam and Eve 5146 04:47:43.759 --> 04:47:47.639 could have continued in a state of innocence without evil 5147 04:47:48.360 --> 04:47:50.360 and been virtuous. 5148 04:47:52.000 --> 04:47:54.000 But they still would have had the choice. 5149 04:47:54.720 --> 04:47:59.000 That's kind of the point, Like the choice of choosing 5150 04:47:59.159 --> 04:48:00.599 a path heath. 5151 04:48:00.479 --> 04:48:03.400 Of evil is no, But I'm saying that. I'm saying 5152 04:48:03.479 --> 04:48:05.639 that even if they had not had the option or 5153 04:48:05.680 --> 04:48:08.520 the ability to choose evil, there could still be virtue, 5154 04:48:08.560 --> 04:48:12.880 and there would there would still be the good because 5155 04:48:12.919 --> 04:48:15.880 there won't be the possibility of choosing evil in the Esketon, 5156 04:48:15.959 --> 04:48:17.880 So it has to be connected to multiple goods. 5157 04:48:19.240 --> 04:48:21.400 You don't think that that possibility will be there. 5158 04:48:22.360 --> 04:48:27.279 In the Escaton. Yeah, No, that's totally heretical. How would 5159 04:48:27.279 --> 04:48:28.439 there be evil in the Escton. 5160 04:48:30.279 --> 04:48:35.200 Well, the explanation I've heard primarily, you know, and I'm getting. 5161 04:48:35.040 --> 04:48:38.159 This primarily from prose, since scholars all admit is that 5162 04:48:38.880 --> 04:48:40.439 you're the you have a. 5163 04:48:40.439 --> 04:48:43.439 Certain kind of character, character character. 5164 04:48:43.599 --> 04:48:45.080 I mean, the Bible is very clear that there's no 5165 04:48:45.279 --> 04:48:47.720 evil in the escton. God will be all in all 5166 04:48:48.200 --> 04:48:49.639 death and hades are destroyed. 5167 04:48:49.680 --> 04:48:53.159 There's no evil, right, but there would just be no evil, 5168 04:48:53.200 --> 04:48:55.759 but there would still be the potential basically. 5169 04:48:56.680 --> 04:48:57.560 In the same way that you. 5170 04:48:57.599 --> 04:49:01.240 Said, like, you know, how there is a difference between 5171 04:49:01.279 --> 04:49:05.279 something being potential and actualizing you know. 5172 04:49:06.080 --> 04:49:08.639 The Well, no, there's no potential for evil. And the 5173 04:49:08.720 --> 04:49:10.759 reason that there's still free will is that free will 5174 04:49:10.880 --> 04:49:13.080 is not a choice between good and evil. That's the 5175 04:49:13.200 --> 04:49:15.799 fallen mode of willing. Free will is a choice between 5176 04:49:15.840 --> 04:49:18.680 multiple goods. That's this is Maximus's whole argument against people 5177 04:49:18.759 --> 04:49:19.159 like Origin. 5178 04:49:20.119 --> 04:49:24.080 Yeah. I thought that was interesting because I know that 5179 04:49:24.159 --> 04:49:26.639 a common rebuttal to that is God, you know, that 5180 04:49:26.680 --> 04:49:30.599 would make God not possess free will. So I was 5181 04:49:30.680 --> 04:49:32.080 just kind of curious. 5182 04:49:32.919 --> 04:49:35.479 Yeah, exactly, that's that's another way to Yeah, that's another 5183 04:49:35.520 --> 04:49:39.159 way to argue it. And also, if you read free 5184 04:49:39.240 --> 04:49:43.479 choice in Saint Maximus, Chapter five discusses this whole issue. 5185 04:49:43.560 --> 04:49:47.479 I think very well from Saint Maximus. Okay, yeah, and 5186 04:49:47.560 --> 04:50:00.279 that's online. You can find that very easily, are you. 5187 04:50:15.159 --> 04:50:18.360 Here's a smart man dark plus seventy seven to one dollar. 5188 04:50:19.680 --> 04:50:22.520 If any man wants to follow me, I will be there. 5189 04:50:22.599 --> 04:50:24.799 They will be my servant. If any man serve me, 5190 04:50:25.200 --> 04:50:28.599 he will honor my father. KJV Bible believing Christian don't 5191 04:50:28.599 --> 04:50:32.479 follow men like you do, Ring Kisser. Hey, you're just 5192 04:50:32.560 --> 04:50:36.000 an idiot. So there's even sillier review to give me 5193 04:50:36.080 --> 04:50:40.279 a dollar agent zero five dollars Boomer Hillsdale College professor impersonation. 5194 04:50:40.400 --> 04:50:41.840 But wait, what does a serpent do that? 5195 04:50:42.000 --> 04:50:42.319 What is it? 5196 04:50:42.360 --> 04:50:46.639 Because that's what it's like, what a serpent does by you? 5197 04:50:46.759 --> 04:50:47.040 What's up? 5198 04:50:54.520 --> 04:50:54.720 Yes? 5199 04:50:54.919 --> 04:51:00.479 Do you think that the Epistle of Barnabas was written 5200 04:51:00.639 --> 04:51:04.080 by the Barnabas in the New Testament. 5201 04:51:05.400 --> 04:51:07.319 I don't have any hard position on that. 5202 04:51:07.560 --> 04:51:14.319 It's possible, okay, because I had heard that orthodox fold 5203 04:51:14.400 --> 04:51:18.840 that the Epistle of Barnabas is an authoritative, authentic text. 5204 04:51:19.639 --> 04:51:21.959 I mean, it's not in the canon scripture, but it 5205 04:51:22.119 --> 04:51:23.959 might be from Barnabas. 5206 04:51:26.080 --> 04:51:27.919 It might be from what it might be. 5207 04:51:27.959 --> 04:51:29.959 From Barnabas, but that doesn't make it part of the 5208 04:51:30.040 --> 04:51:33.680 Canona Scripture. Okay, I mean, I got. 5209 04:51:33.759 --> 04:51:37.799 I thought that it might have been, so really question about. 5210 04:51:37.560 --> 04:51:41.080 It because ideas, Yeah, I think it does. It does, 5211 04:51:41.279 --> 04:51:44.560 and that's why probably why I didn't make it into 5212 04:51:44.599 --> 04:51:45.000 the canon. 5213 04:51:47.000 --> 04:51:50.439 Okay, all right, I guess I had heard some misinformation 5214 04:51:50.599 --> 04:51:54.080 then about the Orthodox belief on the epithotic Thank you sure. 5215 04:51:54.360 --> 04:51:56.880 I mean, we have the same New Testament canon as 5216 04:51:58.000 --> 04:52:01.599 Roman Catholics and Protestants, so not really in terms of 5217 04:52:01.639 --> 04:52:09.560 the books, there's not a difference there. So this is 5218 04:52:09.560 --> 04:52:12.119 for people who disagree. We've been going for almost five hours. 5219 04:52:12.520 --> 04:52:26.319 You who's you? Who's You'll notice this paragraph in one 5220 04:52:26.439 --> 04:52:29.680 hundred and fifty, chapter seventy eight says absolutely nothing like 5221 04:52:29.840 --> 04:52:32.279 what this goop Paul was saying. I mean, the very 5222 04:52:32.319 --> 04:52:36.279 first sentence is saying that God's nature is not created nature. 5223 04:52:40.040 --> 04:52:42.360 If God is a nature, then all the other things 5224 04:52:42.400 --> 04:52:49.599 are not nature. That's because of apatheticism. Then he quotes Maximus, 5225 04:52:49.759 --> 04:52:52.159 which is the and the capped dotions that things around 5226 04:52:52.279 --> 04:52:55.759 God those are the energies, and he says that if 5227 04:52:55.799 --> 04:52:58.080 you understand that, you don't know the essence, but you 5228 04:52:58.159 --> 04:53:00.880 know the energies, then your theology would be and you 5229 04:53:00.919 --> 04:53:04.000 will be in line with the saints. That's the essencenaries sinction. 5230 04:53:04.599 --> 04:53:06.599 God is the nature of all beings and referred to 5231 04:53:06.680 --> 04:53:09.360 as such sense all participate in him and receive their 5232 04:53:09.400 --> 04:53:14.639 constitution by participation. This is Maximus's teaching of Matexas. But 5233 04:53:14.880 --> 04:53:19.240 notice not by participation in his nature. So God is 5234 04:53:19.319 --> 04:53:22.159 the nature of all beings as their source, and since 5235 04:53:22.240 --> 04:53:25.680 they participate in him, giving them being, but they do 5236 04:53:25.799 --> 04:53:28.880 not participate in his nature. So this is where he 5237 04:53:28.959 --> 04:53:32.000 was misreading it. Thus, he is the being of beings, 5238 04:53:32.439 --> 04:53:35.240 the form of forms, because he is the source, prototype, 5239 04:53:35.360 --> 04:53:39.680 archetype of the created world. He is not nature, however, 5240 04:53:39.919 --> 04:53:43.639 created nature because he is beyond all nature. So these 5241 04:53:43.680 --> 04:53:47.639 people who don't have any proficiency in understanding the complexities 5242 04:53:47.680 --> 04:53:51.200 of palamos the essence inari distinction, confuse and jumble this 5243 04:53:51.400 --> 04:53:54.360 up and make God into a creature. You whose what's up? 5244 04:53:57.360 --> 04:53:57.599 Hello? 5245 04:53:58.639 --> 04:54:02.040 Well you can hear me because right now it's ringing, 5246 04:54:03.119 --> 04:54:08.119 I can here. Okay, So I don't know will this. 5247 04:54:08.240 --> 04:54:11.560 Be some type of topic or a question, because it 5248 04:54:12.000 --> 04:54:13.880 still confuses me as. 5249 04:54:13.840 --> 04:54:17.279 A type of soiluation of humanity. I'm alsort of description. 5250 04:54:18.080 --> 04:54:24.080 But my question is what about the Mennonites. 5251 04:54:24.319 --> 04:54:24.959 They are like. 5252 04:54:25.200 --> 04:54:28.319 Protestants who are cut off from. 5253 04:54:28.240 --> 04:54:32.319 The world, like they don't have any excess on the electricity. 5254 04:54:31.799 --> 04:54:34.959 On I don't know, Yeah, there'll still be. 5255 04:54:37.040 --> 04:54:37.240 Yeah. 5256 04:54:37.560 --> 04:54:41.599 My question is will they lose their solution when they die? 5257 04:54:42.680 --> 04:54:47.639 If yes, why well I don't. We don't judge individual people, 5258 04:54:47.880 --> 04:54:51.000 but we can say that that group their profession of 5259 04:54:51.040 --> 04:54:55.599 faith is heterodox. So it's not my position to I 5260 04:54:55.799 --> 04:54:59.880 damn that Ezekiel over there and his buggy and Carr. 5261 04:55:00.759 --> 04:55:03.119 I don't know their destiny, but I do know that 5262 04:55:03.520 --> 04:55:05.680 they have They're a dumb cult. I can tell you 5263 04:55:05.720 --> 04:55:11.040 that for sure. Bleak. The Mennonites at my dad's house 5264 04:55:11.119 --> 04:55:13.599 used to steal his mail all the time. I mean, 5265 04:55:13.599 --> 04:55:15.360 excuse me, the Amish at my dad's house used to 5266 04:55:15.360 --> 04:55:18.599 steal his male. I don't know why. I guess they 5267 04:55:18.639 --> 04:55:21.400 thought they were gonna get a Playboy magazine or he 5268 04:55:21.560 --> 04:55:24.159 was gonna get gold bars to us. I don't know 5269 04:55:24.200 --> 04:55:26.360 what they were looking for, but my dad used to 5270 04:55:26.400 --> 04:55:29.560 complain all the time because the Amish would steal his male. 5271 04:55:29.799 --> 04:55:33.360 So they're not pious, saint saintly people. They're a dumb cult. Bleak, 5272 04:55:33.439 --> 04:55:35.520 what's up. I'm not being mean when I say that. 5273 04:55:35.680 --> 04:55:37.479 I say that because I don't want people to beat 5274 04:55:37.560 --> 04:55:41.959 in that dumb cult. Only people who live in the 5275 04:55:42.080 --> 04:55:45.840 South or around Mennonites and Amish actually know how stupid 5276 04:55:46.000 --> 04:55:47.799 this whole thing, this whole thing. A lot of people 5277 04:55:47.840 --> 04:55:50.119 who don't have that. Oh they're like bathed and they 5278 04:55:50.560 --> 04:55:53.880 don't do vaccines. Yeah, but like the essence of life 5279 04:55:53.919 --> 04:55:56.959 and knowing God is not do you have milk and butter? 5280 04:55:57.159 --> 04:56:00.279 And do you not take vaccines? Because the well, by 5281 04:56:00.319 --> 04:56:02.799 the way, the women are actually super unhealthy. They're all 5282 04:56:02.880 --> 04:56:06.040 like five hundred pounds, so they're not actually healthy because 5283 04:56:06.040 --> 04:56:08.439 they don't take back scenes. And by the way, they're 5284 04:56:08.479 --> 04:56:10.360 a crazy cult. They have their own mafia and all 5285 04:56:10.400 --> 04:56:13.479 their own nonsense and their own peedo stuff. So do 5286 04:56:13.639 --> 04:56:23.319 not be fooled by the appearance of piety amongst Amish. Bleak, 5287 04:56:23.400 --> 04:56:29.040 what's up? I don't know why you're thumbing down, boomer Mom. 5288 04:56:29.119 --> 04:56:31.119 It's a stupid cult. Like do you not know about 5289 04:56:31.159 --> 04:56:36.840 the Amish? You don't know they're a dumb cult, boomer mom, Jan, 5290 04:56:36.880 --> 04:56:38.319 I don't know why you're thumbing down. I'll bring you 5291 04:56:38.360 --> 04:56:39.959 on if you want. Bleak, get on, mute. 5292 04:56:39.959 --> 04:56:40.119 Man. 5293 04:56:41.759 --> 04:56:43.400 We haven't had a y mom tonight, so you know 5294 04:56:43.520 --> 04:56:46.759 why moms can come on and drunkenly tell me why 5295 04:56:46.799 --> 04:56:59.639 I'm wrong. Bleak, you have to unmute. Okay, whatever, you 5296 04:56:59.680 --> 04:57:01.680 don't have have to thumb down fifty times? Dude, what 5297 04:57:01.720 --> 04:57:02.080 do you want? 5298 04:57:05.799 --> 04:57:06.520 Can anyone hear me? 5299 04:57:06.599 --> 04:57:06.799 Hello? 5300 04:57:07.159 --> 04:57:07.360 Yep? 5301 04:57:08.520 --> 04:57:08.680 Hey? 5302 04:57:09.279 --> 04:57:09.639 Do die? 5303 04:57:09.680 --> 04:57:11.400 Or is this our Muslims allowed in here? 5304 04:57:12.159 --> 04:57:12.360 Yeah? 5305 04:57:13.479 --> 04:57:13.840 All right? 5306 04:57:14.319 --> 04:57:17.840 I just have some questions. I think I save a 5307 04:57:17.880 --> 04:57:19.959 false prophecy in the Gospel of Matthew. 5308 04:57:19.959 --> 04:57:25.000 Can you address it? What in Matthew Chapter twenty seven, 5309 04:57:25.560 --> 04:57:27.000 verse nine through time. 5310 04:57:38.400 --> 04:57:40.520 If you could read it out loud please, I'm getting 5311 04:57:40.520 --> 04:57:46.319 it and pulling it up, no problem, Matthew. What'd you say? 5312 04:57:46.400 --> 04:57:46.959 Twenty seven? 5313 04:57:49.000 --> 04:57:50.040 Yeah, first line through time. 5314 04:57:57.000 --> 04:57:59.639 That's what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet. They took 5315 04:57:59.720 --> 04:58:03.639 thirty pieces of silver, the value which was priced, and 5316 04:58:03.759 --> 04:58:05.840 they gave it as the price of the potters field. 5317 04:58:05.880 --> 04:58:06.159 That one. 5318 04:58:07.799 --> 04:58:10.119 Yes, I want to see where that's located in the 5319 04:58:10.159 --> 04:58:11.919 Gulf in the US or not the GOLs, but Germuth. 5320 04:58:12.319 --> 04:58:16.560 In the Book of Jeremiah, it might be misattributed in 5321 04:58:16.759 --> 04:58:17.880 the masoretic texts. 5322 04:58:19.439 --> 04:58:21.599 Yeah, but it must be. I mean it has to 5323 04:58:21.639 --> 04:58:24.639 be in the uh like you know, the Book of Jeremiah, right, not. 5324 04:58:24.799 --> 04:58:26.360 If this is from the masoretic text. 5325 04:58:29.799 --> 04:58:59.720 Okay, so where would it be from? M h. 5326 04:59:01.599 --> 04:59:08.080 It's referring, I think, to Jeremiah's purchase of a field. 5327 04:59:09.799 --> 04:59:10.000 Yeah. 5328 04:59:10.119 --> 04:59:12.439 Yeah, but the problem is when you go into that 5329 04:59:12.560 --> 04:59:15.040 passage you're going to, it doesn't mention it mentioned a 5330 04:59:15.040 --> 04:59:16.520 different amount of shuckles. 5331 04:59:18.639 --> 04:59:19.880 Therefore it is not the same event. 5332 04:59:21.240 --> 04:59:24.680 It's well, the second verse, the second section is the 5333 04:59:24.759 --> 04:59:29.159 Potters field. So is that what you're talking about? 5334 04:59:30.279 --> 04:59:32.200 Yeah, so the first one I gave you? How many 5335 04:59:32.240 --> 04:59:33.680 shuckles did that talk about? Thirty? 5336 04:59:35.159 --> 04:59:36.919 Yeah? But what I'm saying is this is probably a 5337 04:59:36.959 --> 04:59:39.479 difference between the subtuage and the masoretic text. 5338 04:59:39.319 --> 04:59:39.880 Is what I'm saying. 5339 04:59:40.880 --> 04:59:42.799 I mean the subtu in Mazaruta, can I get like 5340 04:59:42.919 --> 04:59:45.479 numbers like wrong? Can they contradict to numbers? It's kind 5341 04:59:45.520 --> 04:59:45.880 of crazy. 5342 04:59:47.479 --> 04:59:51.520 Well, yeah, because it's too it's different translations in different orderings. 5343 04:59:51.520 --> 04:59:55.119 And we don't go by the maz We don't go 5344 04:59:55.279 --> 04:59:59.759 by that, so you we don't go Why do you 5345 04:59:59.840 --> 05:00:01.599 keep interrupted? Me, I said, we don't go by that. 5346 05:00:03.279 --> 05:00:04.959 It's not a translation, it's a reception. 5347 05:00:06.279 --> 05:00:09.439 No, the sebtusion is a translation. It's a Greek translation. 5348 05:00:10.200 --> 05:00:12.319 Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, it's a Greek translation, 5349 05:00:12.400 --> 05:00:16.439 but it's known as a reception okay of the So, 5350 05:00:17.479 --> 05:00:22.200 Jay Dyer, why name regardless? I mean, what do you 5351 05:00:22.279 --> 05:00:22.680 want to call you? 5352 05:00:23.880 --> 05:00:24.040 Why? 5353 05:00:24.279 --> 05:00:26.000 It's just weird to repeat my name. 5354 05:00:27.080 --> 05:00:28.159 No, I'm not repeating your name. 5355 05:00:28.200 --> 05:00:30.279 I'm calling you are repeating my name. He keeps saying 5356 05:00:30.319 --> 05:00:30.959 my full name. 5357 05:00:32.159 --> 05:00:35.000 Okay, j Should I call you Jay? Call you Ja? 5358 05:00:35.119 --> 05:00:35.479 No problem? 5359 05:00:35.520 --> 05:00:35.959 Okay, Jay. 5360 05:00:36.439 --> 05:00:39.400 So we read in the Gospel, it's not the Gospel 5361 05:00:39.479 --> 05:00:41.200 the Book of Jeremiah or try. 5362 05:00:41.240 --> 05:00:45.319 So, what I'm saying is that the second phrase is 5363 05:00:45.360 --> 05:00:49.240 a reference the potter's field. That's Zachariah. Accue me. The 5364 05:00:49.639 --> 05:00:53.400 the potter's field, which is the second reference in verse ten, 5365 05:00:54.319 --> 05:00:58.520 that's from Jeremiah. But the first reference is from Zechariah. 5366 05:00:58.599 --> 05:01:01.200 And so he's just including being both of those references 5367 05:01:01.319 --> 05:01:07.240 under Jeremiah. So the second reference, it says where it says. 5368 05:01:07.040 --> 05:01:10.000 To be Jeremiah, because Jeremiah is a different amount of. 5369 05:01:10.479 --> 05:01:12.560 Well, he can say Jeremiah the prophet and then he 5370 05:01:12.599 --> 05:01:17.040 can include both verses as if the two comment on 5371 05:01:17.240 --> 05:01:19.759 what Jeremiah is talking about. So it's not wrong to 5372 05:01:19.840 --> 05:01:22.000 say Jeremiah if it's such a quote from Jeremiah and 5373 05:01:22.119 --> 05:01:25.880 Zachariah to class them both under just saying Jeremiah, because 5374 05:01:25.880 --> 05:01:26.720 this is because the the. 5375 05:01:28.479 --> 05:01:29.799 So can you read the Jeremiah verse? 5376 05:01:31.680 --> 05:01:34.799 It's thirty nine six to nine about the purchasing of 5377 05:01:34.880 --> 05:01:35.240 the field. 5378 05:01:35.439 --> 05:01:40.479 Can you read the verse? Can you read the can you? Yeah? 5379 05:01:40.520 --> 05:01:41.040 I'm looking for it? 5380 05:01:41.119 --> 05:01:41.319 Hold on? 5381 05:01:44.720 --> 05:01:46.119 Are you lugging? I think he's lugging? 5382 05:01:49.240 --> 05:01:53.080 It's it's it's where Jeremiah talks about purchasing the Potters field, 5383 05:01:54.080 --> 05:01:55.799 the purchase jugging. 5384 05:01:55.919 --> 05:01:56.560 Is it me lugging? 5385 05:01:56.639 --> 05:01:56.959 Or is it you? 5386 05:02:08.880 --> 05:02:09.639 Hello? Can you hear me? 5387 05:02:09.959 --> 05:02:12.159 Hold on? Yes? 5388 05:02:12.200 --> 05:02:12.479 Hold on? 5389 05:02:12.799 --> 05:02:17.279 Can anyone hear me? Am I audible? Hello? 5390 05:02:17.720 --> 05:02:17.919 Yes? 5391 05:02:20.799 --> 05:02:21.759 Am I audible? Hello? 5392 05:02:23.000 --> 05:02:24.040 Yes? You're audible? 5393 05:02:25.720 --> 05:02:25.959 Hello? 5394 05:02:26.240 --> 05:02:35.159 Am I audible? Can anyone hear me? What hell is this? Hello? Okay? 5395 05:02:35.200 --> 05:02:37.639 You can hear me? Can you hear me? 5396 05:02:37.880 --> 05:02:38.080 Yes? 5397 05:02:43.000 --> 05:02:44.639 And someone put the thumbs up if they can hear me. 5398 05:02:45.639 --> 05:02:49.639 It's because there's a difference between the numbering in Jeremiah 5399 05:02:49.799 --> 05:03:00.840 in the Mazat text versus a septuagent. So Jeremiah the prophet, 5400 05:03:00.919 --> 05:03:02.880 they will they took the thirty pieces of silver, and 5401 05:03:02.919 --> 05:03:04.560 the valued him who was priced, and they gave it 5402 05:03:04.599 --> 05:03:07.400 to the children of Israel, and they gave him the 5403 05:03:07.520 --> 05:03:10.680 potter's field, as the Lord directed me. So that is 5404 05:03:10.759 --> 05:03:14.880 a citation from Jeremiah. The first part is a citation 5405 05:03:15.000 --> 05:03:18.119 from Zachariah. So it's not false to say that it's 5406 05:03:18.319 --> 05:03:25.319 from Jeremiah when it's classing together the events and explaining them. 5407 05:03:26.159 --> 05:03:29.959 The potters field from Jeremiah thirty six or give me 5408 05:03:30.040 --> 05:03:34.279 thirty nine, when he buys the field, it's the Zachariah 5409 05:03:34.360 --> 05:03:42.200 text that mentions the payment. So it's Zechariah. Somebody mentioned it. 5410 05:03:42.279 --> 05:03:43.119 What is it Zecharia? 5411 05:03:43.159 --> 05:03:43.200 What? 5412 05:03:55.520 --> 05:04:00.799 Yes, it's a composite prophecy. It's combining two season saying 5413 05:04:00.840 --> 05:04:03.240 that when Jeremiah was talking about the purchase of a field, 5414 05:04:03.959 --> 05:04:07.119 that's a partial fulfillment of the death of Judas. The 5415 05:04:07.240 --> 05:04:10.759 other fulfillment is the mention in Zachariah. 5416 05:04:12.759 --> 05:04:13.200 Of the. 5417 05:04:15.040 --> 05:04:26.040 Thirty pieces of silver. Yeah, so Zachariah eleven twelve to thirteen, 5418 05:04:27.240 --> 05:04:29.759 thirty pieces of silver, that's the first part of the 5419 05:04:29.880 --> 05:04:42.959 verse that's quoted. I'm getting tired. My mind is mush. 5420 05:04:44.159 --> 05:04:52.240 But it's right here. Thirty pieces of silver that's from 5421 05:04:52.439 --> 05:04:57.439 Zachariah that we just read and gave them. For the 5422 05:04:57.520 --> 05:05:01.159 potters Field, as the Lord directed me, is from Jeremiah. 5423 05:05:01.560 --> 05:05:05.119 So he's just combining two prophecies and saying Jeremiah. So 5424 05:05:05.159 --> 05:05:09.439 it's not false. But I'm trying to find that which 5425 05:05:09.479 --> 05:05:11.840 section of Jeremiah that is. I just read it. But again, 5426 05:05:11.959 --> 05:05:15.959 the reason that I'm having getting confused is because in 5427 05:05:16.040 --> 05:05:28.360 the septuagen the numbering of Jeremiah is different. So it's 5428 05:05:28.439 --> 05:05:30.919 wherever Jeremiah talks about the potters Field, and I just 5429 05:05:30.959 --> 05:05:32.479 read it. I just don't remember which verse it is. 5430 05:05:35.319 --> 05:05:42.919 Here it is Jeremiah Potterfield eighteen to twenty one, is okay. 5431 05:05:43.000 --> 05:05:46.479 So he's summarizing the sections of Jeremiah where Jeremiah purchases 5432 05:05:46.560 --> 05:05:49.319 this field, and he's saying that is in part of 5433 05:05:49.400 --> 05:05:55.279 fulfillment of the field, where it's a partial prediction of 5434 05:05:55.360 --> 05:05:57.639 Judas is what I'm trying to say. So it's eighteen 5435 05:05:57.680 --> 05:06:09.639 to twenty one. Where is it the Jeremiah purchases the field? 5436 05:06:09.759 --> 05:06:10.159 Is that not it? 5437 05:06:32.319 --> 05:06:36.479 Yeah? Okay? The reference is Zecharai's words it's connected to 5438 05:06:36.599 --> 05:06:39.560 Jeremia's ministry because Jeremiah's name was on the scroll. In 5439 05:06:39.639 --> 05:06:41.959 those days, books didn't exist, and so it was common 5440 05:06:42.040 --> 05:06:46.080 for shorter writings to be attached to longer, more major writings. 5441 05:06:46.439 --> 05:06:48.200 That way, you didn't have a tiny scroll for a 5442 05:06:48.240 --> 05:06:52.479 short writing like Jonah or Obadiah. Truthfully, we don't often 5443 05:06:52.520 --> 05:06:55.520 know today when we read which had multiple contributors, and 5444 05:06:55.599 --> 05:06:58.080 so we often referenced the name on the cover. So 5445 05:06:58.200 --> 05:07:00.680 the passage is a combination of two reference is namely 5446 05:07:01.200 --> 05:07:05.840 both namely quotations from both Jeremiah, who had experience buying 5447 05:07:05.880 --> 05:07:08.919 the potter's field on two different occasions Potters and Pottery 5448 05:07:09.000 --> 05:07:12.439 Jeremiah eighteen and nineteen, and the quotation from Zachariah eleven, 5449 05:07:12.840 --> 05:07:15.919 which is the was what the first part of the verse. 5450 05:07:18.400 --> 05:07:20.759 But I was just reading in Jeremiah where he's talking 5451 05:07:20.799 --> 05:07:27.919 about purchasing something. Doesn't it say something like the Lord 5452 05:07:28.119 --> 05:07:30.000 instruct me to go buy a field. I'm trying to 5453 05:07:30.000 --> 05:07:36.159 remember I've just read this, And the only reason it's 5454 05:07:36.200 --> 05:07:38.360 confusing is because, as I was saying at the beginning 5455 05:07:38.360 --> 05:07:44.159 of the stream, the references in the Orthodox Study Bible, 5456 05:07:44.319 --> 05:07:47.319 the chapters are all different in Jeremiah. So it takes 5457 05:07:47.360 --> 05:08:13.400 forever to find the reference to the field. There it 5458 05:08:13.560 --> 05:08:17.880 is go to the potter's house. I'll give you a message. 5459 05:08:17.959 --> 05:08:21.520 Or is that just eighteen eleven? There it is thirty 5460 05:08:21.560 --> 05:08:23.959 two six to nine buying the field. That's what I 5461 05:08:24.040 --> 05:08:30.319 was trying to find. But it's different. It's not thirty 5462 05:08:30.319 --> 05:08:32.200 two six to nine in the Orthodox study. By Well, 5463 05:08:32.200 --> 05:08:39.959 that's why I was confusing. So thirty two sixty nine 5464 05:08:52.400 --> 05:08:54.560 there it is. Jeremiah said, the word of the Lord 5465 05:08:54.599 --> 05:08:58.880 came to me, son of Hanahmel, your uncle will come 5466 05:08:58.959 --> 05:09:03.759 to you saying the field and Anathoth. So that's where 5467 05:09:03.880 --> 05:09:08.040 Jeremiah is told to go buy this field. So all 5468 05:09:08.119 --> 05:09:10.720 of this, so all of this for the last like 5469 05:09:10.919 --> 05:09:15.479 thirty minutes, was just this bunch of nonsense. So because 5470 05:09:16.479 --> 05:09:21.240 ancient scrolls would write one letter or one name at 5471 05:09:21.279 --> 05:09:24.680 the top, and you combine the prophecy together and say 5472 05:09:24.759 --> 05:09:28.319 that it's the prophecy of Jeremiah. So you're just linking 5473 05:09:28.400 --> 05:09:31.360 what Zechai says to half of the verse, which is Jeremiah. 5474 05:09:31.400 --> 05:09:35.159 So it's a big nothing. Bleak. Do you want to 5475 05:09:35.200 --> 05:10:05.560 try again? Bleak? I'm you, Hm, why do you keep 5476 05:10:05.599 --> 05:10:07.200 going if you don't want to umute ude, don't get it. 5477 05:10:10.400 --> 05:10:38.240 Southern reconciliation. Helloh, you don't have your MIC's turn your 5478 05:10:38.279 --> 05:10:45.799 permissions turned on because it won't add you. Jace the 5479 05:10:45.880 --> 05:10:48.200 last one. I don't see anybody else. Here's another. It's like, 5480 05:10:48.360 --> 05:10:50.200 right when I think nobody else is coming, somebody else 5481 05:10:50.200 --> 05:10:50.560 pops in. 5482 05:10:51.560 --> 05:10:58.240 I'm mute, Heydri, can you hear me? A big fan 5483 05:10:58.319 --> 05:11:00.159 of yours? And Sam's think you. 5484 05:11:01.080 --> 05:11:05.520 I kind of had a I thought about Orthodox evangelism. 5485 05:11:05.880 --> 05:11:08.919 I know there's a lot of like Protestants who go 5486 05:11:09.000 --> 05:11:11.439 out in the streets and kind of say like repent 5487 05:11:11.599 --> 05:11:12.000 or dies. 5488 05:11:12.159 --> 05:11:13.040 So this is right. 5489 05:11:13.639 --> 05:11:16.360 I appreciate that, but it's it's it's debate days, so 5490 05:11:16.400 --> 05:11:18.919 we're not we're doing open form if you have debate 5491 05:11:19.159 --> 05:11:21.880 or challenge or opposition burn what's up? 5492 05:11:33.240 --> 05:11:33.479 Hello? 5493 05:11:33.919 --> 05:11:38.959 Yeah, I just was wondering, do you have any idea 5494 05:11:39.000 --> 05:11:42.080 what that guy's talking about with the fruitful, fruitful Bible. 5495 05:11:42.279 --> 05:11:44.599 This is Jake Bernitz, by the way, that I sent 5496 05:11:44.680 --> 05:11:47.759 a super trap but you didn't address it, but it 5497 05:11:47.880 --> 05:11:51.040 was on tag. But that guy keeps talking about we 5498 05:11:51.200 --> 05:11:53.119 use only the most fruitful Bible. 5499 05:11:53.159 --> 05:11:55.000 I don't know what kind of argument that it is. 5500 05:11:56.279 --> 05:11:58.360 I'm sorry, okay, let me scroll down here. I missed 5501 05:11:58.400 --> 05:12:02.520 a couple of super chats here, Casey Cardenas five dollars. 5502 05:12:02.919 --> 05:12:04.840 I'm sorry about that earlier question. I meant to say, 5503 05:12:04.880 --> 05:12:09.959 as a hypothetical disagreement about the cannonation of Isaac Isaac 5504 05:12:10.000 --> 05:12:13.520 the Syrian. Now he was in communion with the church 5505 05:12:13.880 --> 05:12:16.479 is our view, so he wasn't out of communion. Jake 5506 05:12:16.520 --> 05:12:19.959 Bernards ten dollars. What are some books on tag specific 5507 05:12:20.040 --> 05:12:21.279 to Orthodoxy? There aren't any? 5508 05:12:23.479 --> 05:12:24.240 Oh, there aren't. 5509 05:12:24.520 --> 05:12:27.880 Oh, okay, well, because you make the argument in a 5510 05:12:28.000 --> 05:12:30.639 very specific way, so I'm really trying to understand it 5511 05:12:30.959 --> 05:12:33.080 so I can like properly portray. 5512 05:12:32.840 --> 05:12:36.200 It, right people, Yeah, there's not one. Really, It's just 5513 05:12:36.319 --> 05:12:38.680 kind of stuff that Father Deacon and Ias and I 5514 05:12:38.759 --> 05:12:40.479 have been arguing. Now, he's got a lot of papers 5515 05:12:40.479 --> 05:12:42.479 in the discord that you could look to that kind 5516 05:12:42.520 --> 05:12:43.279 of go in that direction. 5517 05:12:44.200 --> 05:12:47.279 Okay, Well, I was also wondering, what are some like 5518 05:12:47.599 --> 05:12:52.319 books for like underlying philosophical topics that I need to 5519 05:12:52.439 --> 05:12:54.799 know for that specific argument. 5520 05:12:55.000 --> 05:12:58.040 I would say, look up Bonson's book Always Ready. You 5521 05:12:58.119 --> 05:13:00.479 could look up an argument or a book like a 5522 05:13:01.159 --> 05:13:03.880 Ultimate Proof by doctor Jason Lyle. Those are good ones. 5523 05:13:09.959 --> 05:13:14.639 So we're doing people who disagree tonight. It looks like 5524 05:13:14.720 --> 05:13:23.040 we're about about out of people, that we're about out 5525 05:13:23.080 --> 05:13:30.919 of options here for disagreeers. So you only can come 5526 05:13:30.959 --> 05:13:33.319 on if you disagree. So please don't come on here 5527 05:13:33.360 --> 05:13:35.759 and ask me a bunch of orthodox fake questions. 5528 05:13:37.279 --> 05:13:37.319 What. 5529 05:13:42.759 --> 05:13:47.439 Yeah, I was calling to disagree about tact But that's 5530 05:13:47.479 --> 05:13:53.759 why I kip Okay, So one of the claims that 5531 05:13:53.799 --> 05:13:56.759 you made about classical theism, I'm just trying to explain 5532 05:13:56.840 --> 05:14:00.599 why I have a disagreement classical theism is you can 5533 05:14:01.840 --> 05:14:04.720 pause it other gods. It doesn't lead to just the 5534 05:14:04.840 --> 05:14:06.639 Orthodox god exception. 5535 05:14:06.560 --> 05:14:11.880 Right, That would be one critique of it. Yeah, it's 5536 05:14:12.000 --> 05:14:14.799 it's not just I mean, it's rather that there's a 5537 05:14:14.919 --> 05:14:17.479 fallacy involved, like the quantifier shift fallacy. 5538 05:14:19.279 --> 05:14:19.439 Right. 5539 05:14:19.560 --> 05:14:23.759 So my disagreement on tag was that, like, couldn't you 5540 05:14:23.840 --> 05:14:25.560 make the same exactly? I mean, I think you can 5541 05:14:25.720 --> 05:14:28.119 make the same, So I'll put it that way. I 5542 05:14:28.200 --> 05:14:33.599 think the fact that Greg Bohnson until they're the ones 5543 05:14:33.599 --> 05:14:34.279 who first. 5544 05:14:34.919 --> 05:14:38.560 Well, that's that's that's a no, that's the genetic fallacy. 5545 05:14:38.639 --> 05:14:40.840 The fact that people make that argument has nothing to 5546 05:14:40.919 --> 05:14:43.000 do with like the source of an argument, not to 5547 05:14:43.040 --> 05:14:45.240 do with whether it's true or false. So we refine 5548 05:14:45.279 --> 05:14:48.319 that argument to say it's better fitted to the orthodox perspective. 5549 05:14:48.639 --> 05:14:56.400 So you're just committing a genetic fallacy. I mean, as 5550 05:14:56.439 --> 05:14:59.959 a classical theist, you commit genetic fallacies all the time. 5551 05:15:00.279 --> 05:15:06.520 If you think that you can just go to Aristotle's God, right, 5552 05:15:08.759 --> 05:15:09.680 could I argue that it? 5553 05:15:09.799 --> 05:15:09.919 Well? 5554 05:15:10.639 --> 05:15:12.919 Can I argue what if I said this? Aristotle is 5555 05:15:12.919 --> 05:15:16.840 a pagan, So your classical theist arguments are false. It's 5556 05:15:16.880 --> 05:15:20.479 a fallacy. Aristotle is the source of this, has nothing 5557 05:15:20.520 --> 05:15:21.560 to do with others for false. 5558 05:15:23.040 --> 05:15:25.720 Okay, I just thought that your critique of classical theism 5559 05:15:25.720 --> 05:15:28.360 as an argument is that it can be used for 5560 05:15:29.680 --> 05:15:30.240 other guys. 5561 05:15:30.279 --> 05:15:31.279 Is that not your argument? 5562 05:15:32.799 --> 05:15:36.720 The argument is that it doesn't specify who or what 5563 05:15:36.919 --> 05:15:39.560 it's talking about, and so it's a deficient argument. And 5564 05:15:39.680 --> 05:15:43.040 you're confusing that with the fact that somebody who's wrong 5565 05:15:43.319 --> 05:15:46.279 or has a heterodox position is using a transcendental argument. 5566 05:15:46.680 --> 05:15:49.080 That's two different things. You don't see that I'm saying. 5567 05:15:49.959 --> 05:15:51.639 Okay, I get I do get what you're saying, but 5568 05:15:51.759 --> 05:15:53.919 what I Okay, so you can tell me, I'm wrong. 5569 05:15:54.040 --> 05:15:56.360 But what I'm saying is the fact that these two 5570 05:15:56.560 --> 05:16:02.240 these two arguments can be used for any paradigm is 5571 05:16:02.360 --> 05:16:03.279 kind of what defeats it. 5572 05:16:03.400 --> 05:16:05.119 That's what I'm That's what I'm getting at. I don't 5573 05:16:05.119 --> 05:16:05.680 know if it. 5574 05:16:05.680 --> 05:16:09.200 Can't be used for any paradigm, that that's the point. 5575 05:16:10.720 --> 05:16:14.759 You're saying, the transcendental argument cannot be used validly. 5576 05:16:14.400 --> 05:16:19.040 For other paradigms. Correct, Okay, yeah, I guess that's where 5577 05:16:19.080 --> 05:16:19.680 I disagree. 5578 05:16:21.080 --> 05:16:23.360 Okay, how can it be used for other paradigms? 5579 05:16:25.560 --> 05:16:28.639 Well, I mean, well, okay, so then that's why I 5580 05:16:28.680 --> 05:16:31.080 would say, Like if Greg Bahnson formulated. 5581 05:16:30.720 --> 05:16:34.400 I just answered that. So you don't You don't understand. 5582 05:16:34.759 --> 05:16:39.200 You asked me to demonstrate the Okay, the. 5583 05:16:39.279 --> 05:16:42.720 Fact that a person who's wrong uses an argument does 5584 05:16:42.799 --> 05:16:45.279 not mean that the argument can therefore be used by 5585 05:16:45.319 --> 05:16:47.319 any position. You don't see the difference between that. 5586 05:16:48.000 --> 05:16:50.119 I understand that, I understand it. 5587 05:16:50.200 --> 05:16:51.799 But then then you restate the position. 5588 05:16:54.919 --> 05:16:57.159 But then isn't it on you to demonstrate how he's 5589 05:16:57.240 --> 05:16:58.159 using it invalidly? 5590 05:16:58.639 --> 05:17:00.360 Absolutely? I do it all the time. 5591 05:17:03.479 --> 05:17:05.520 Okay, But if you but then you appeal to the 5592 05:17:05.759 --> 05:17:11.360 orthodox paradigm. But that's Is that refuting the argument like 5593 05:17:11.880 --> 05:17:14.840 on philosophical grounds or is that just disagreeing. 5594 05:17:14.319 --> 05:17:18.000 With Yeah, the argument is that Greg Bnsen doesn't have 5595 05:17:18.080 --> 05:17:22.439 a specific, correct trinitarian doctrine to ground the transcendental argument, 5596 05:17:22.479 --> 05:17:24.279 and so when he appeals to things like it answering 5597 05:17:24.319 --> 05:17:26.400 the one of the many, it doesn't work because his 5598 05:17:26.520 --> 05:17:30.439 trinitary theology is bogus. So a correct trinity theology solves 5599 05:17:30.479 --> 05:17:31.000 that problem. 5600 05:17:33.560 --> 05:17:35.840 So you don't see you don't see that as tangential 5601 05:17:35.959 --> 05:17:38.639 to the transcendental argument. 5602 05:17:38.759 --> 05:17:40.759 I guess how would it be tangential when all this 5603 05:17:40.880 --> 05:17:43.400 time I've been arguing that the orthodox trinity is the 5604 05:17:43.439 --> 05:17:44.319 transcendental argument. 5605 05:17:53.080 --> 05:17:56.240 I see that as in my mind they are different categories. 5606 05:17:56.279 --> 05:17:58.159 But okay, I you know, I mean, have you not 5607 05:17:58.279 --> 05:17:59.560 listened to how I've been arguing it. 5608 05:18:00.279 --> 05:18:01.720 Of course I have, Yes, I have. 5609 05:18:02.200 --> 05:18:04.439 Well, then you just didn't get it because I've said 5610 05:18:04.520 --> 05:18:06.520 for how many years now? Do you have to have 5611 05:18:06.639 --> 05:18:08.360 a specific trinitarian God? 5612 05:18:09.439 --> 05:18:10.279 Okay, I'm just. 5613 05:18:10.439 --> 05:18:12.479 I'm trying to say that in my mind, there's a 5614 05:18:12.520 --> 05:18:18.279 distinction between the private revelation and the philosophical. 5615 05:18:17.720 --> 05:18:20.360 Argument, Like revelation, what are you talking about? 5616 05:18:21.319 --> 05:18:24.560 Okay, Well, does Greg Bonson not have a different private 5617 05:18:24.639 --> 05:18:26.119 revelation than someone who's. 5618 05:18:26.240 --> 05:18:28.080 What are you talking about private revelation? I don't know 5619 05:18:28.119 --> 05:18:32.720 what that means, no idea, what you're talking about? What's 5620 05:18:32.720 --> 05:18:34.119 a private revelation is? 5621 05:18:34.200 --> 05:18:34.240 Like? 5622 05:18:34.319 --> 05:18:36.080 What offense? What are you talking about? 5623 05:18:36.159 --> 05:18:39.840 I'll explain, No, revelation doesn't Isn't that part of any 5624 05:18:40.119 --> 05:18:43.439 anyone's conversion? Like I'm not trying to say anything crazy here, genuinely, 5625 05:18:43.880 --> 05:18:47.759 I'm saying, revelation is a part of anybody who professes 5626 05:18:47.919 --> 05:18:51.560 like Orthodox Christianity, Catholic Christianity, Protestant Christianity, or they. 5627 05:18:51.479 --> 05:18:54.840 Have different doctrines of revelation, but that's not private revelation. 5628 05:18:56.000 --> 05:18:56.279 Okay. 5629 05:18:56.360 --> 05:18:58.840 So okay, so throughout the word private. 5630 05:18:58.560 --> 05:18:59.319 Then just revelation. 5631 05:18:59.479 --> 05:19:02.040 Okay, Okay, So I'm. 5632 05:19:01.919 --> 05:19:04.840 Saying I just said private because it's different for everybody, 5633 05:19:04.919 --> 05:19:06.279 So like Greg Boson or whatever. 5634 05:19:06.840 --> 05:19:08.720 So what I'm s how can it be different for everybody? 5635 05:19:10.400 --> 05:19:13.279 It's different, meaning if you have a different paradigm, it's different. 5636 05:19:13.400 --> 05:19:15.840 So you, as an Orthodox Christian have a different revelation 5637 05:19:16.000 --> 05:19:18.319 than Greg Bonnson does if he's a Baptist or if 5638 05:19:18.319 --> 05:19:21.919 he's a Protestant, and your orthodox right, Well, the factors 5639 05:19:21.919 --> 05:19:23.119 into the transcendental argument. 5640 05:19:23.119 --> 05:19:26.439 Okay, so you're misunderstanding. Look, it's not a different revelation. 5641 05:19:26.560 --> 05:19:31.000 There's only one revelation, but people have misappropriations and misunderstandings 5642 05:19:31.040 --> 05:19:35.919 of that one revelation. There's not different revelations. There's only 5643 05:19:36.040 --> 05:19:39.319 one divine revelation, which is the depositive faith. And the 5644 05:19:39.400 --> 05:19:42.200 fact that people get things wrong doesn't mean there's different revelations. 5645 05:19:42.240 --> 05:19:43.360 That means they're making mistakes. 5646 05:19:45.400 --> 05:19:49.639 Okay, But okay, so but people claim to be Okay, well, 5647 05:19:49.799 --> 05:19:53.319 people claim divine revelations, and so you would say they're 5648 05:19:53.400 --> 05:19:54.639 just wrong when they claim that. 5649 05:19:54.799 --> 05:19:58.439 Right, Well, everybody has to say somebody's right and somebody's wrong, 5650 05:19:58.520 --> 05:19:59.520 So everybody has that view. 5651 05:19:59.639 --> 05:20:03.000 So but I'm talking specifically about revelation. That's that's why 5652 05:20:03.119 --> 05:20:04.240 it's it's kind of important. 5653 05:20:05.479 --> 05:20:08.959 Every position that's Catholic, Orthodox Protestant has to say that 5654 05:20:09.040 --> 05:20:13.919 there's some specific finality, defined body of what's divine revelation 5655 05:20:14.080 --> 05:20:16.639 and that the other positions are incorrect. It doesn't mean 5656 05:20:16.639 --> 05:20:22.279 there's different revelations, but. 5657 05:20:22.400 --> 05:20:24.400 The claims are different. That's all I'm trying to say. 5658 05:20:24.479 --> 05:20:28.360 The different So that just means that just means. 5659 05:20:29.439 --> 05:20:30.599 That just means somebody is wrong. 5660 05:20:32.880 --> 05:20:35.520 But when it's when we're talking about revelation, it's not 5661 05:20:35.639 --> 05:20:38.279 like a logical question or it's not like it's just 5662 05:20:38.520 --> 05:20:41.880 something that's revealed, right, Like, how do you argue. 5663 05:20:41.720 --> 05:20:42.479 That that's the whole? 5664 05:20:42.840 --> 05:20:45.639 No, that's so you've been disagree with it, so you 5665 05:20:45.720 --> 05:20:48.080 have no idea what so you don't understand these positions, 5666 05:20:48.119 --> 05:20:51.080 so you're confused. So No, the fact that something's the 5667 05:20:51.159 --> 05:20:53.759 fact that something's revealed does not mean that it's illogical 5668 05:20:53.840 --> 05:20:55.799 or that it doesn't relate to logic, and not even 5669 05:20:55.799 --> 05:20:57.000 the Roman Catholics of that position. 5670 05:20:57.680 --> 05:21:01.840 Wait, I you're saying that, I'm saying it's it's necessarily illogical. 5671 05:21:01.959 --> 05:21:03.200 If someone is saying I'm not. 5672 05:21:03.279 --> 05:21:06.080 Saying that, you said, how does it even relate to logic? 5673 05:21:06.319 --> 05:21:08.799 Of course logic is grounded in revelation. That's our perer, 5674 05:21:08.880 --> 05:21:09.479 that's our position. 5675 05:21:12.200 --> 05:21:12.479 Okay. 5676 05:21:12.560 --> 05:21:14.639 But and so all I'm saying is that on a 5677 05:21:14.720 --> 05:21:19.080 transcendental argument from my perspective, everybody claims that, So there's 5678 05:21:19.119 --> 05:21:20.000 no way to DeLine in. 5679 05:21:20.119 --> 05:21:23.520 You're confusing claiming something with it being the case. Those 5680 05:21:23.560 --> 05:21:25.439 are two different things. The fact that they claim it 5681 05:21:25.520 --> 05:21:26.840 is irrelevant. You don't understand that. 5682 05:21:27.720 --> 05:21:29.639 Okay, So you're saying the fact that they claim it 5683 05:21:29.680 --> 05:21:32.439 doesn't make it true. Right, So I understand that you're 5684 05:21:32.639 --> 05:21:33.919 repeating that. I understand that. 5685 05:21:34.360 --> 05:21:36.799 But then you go back to arguing like that doesn't 5686 05:21:36.840 --> 05:21:38.599 the case and I didn't say that, So you're. 5687 05:21:38.479 --> 05:21:41.639 Well, all I'm saying is that they exist different these 5688 05:21:41.720 --> 05:21:44.680 different claims exist, and that there's no way to do 5689 05:21:44.880 --> 05:21:49.319 there's no The step after that is to argue, well, 5690 05:21:49.400 --> 05:21:50.080 my revelation. 5691 05:21:50.200 --> 05:21:51.240 That's why I brought up revelation. 5692 05:21:51.560 --> 05:21:54.080 This is the point where you're misunderstanding is that we're 5693 05:21:54.119 --> 05:21:57.639 not stuck in that position. You can use logic and 5694 05:21:57.720 --> 05:22:00.560 reasoning to fetter out which position is fall which one 5695 05:22:00.639 --> 05:22:04.639 is true. For example, rag Boson's trinitarian theology does not 5696 05:22:04.840 --> 05:22:07.279 work to do the grounding that our position does. 5697 05:22:07.520 --> 05:22:10.240 That's the point, okay, But. 5698 05:22:10.319 --> 05:22:13.000 You don't you don't see how this is just okay, 5699 05:22:13.040 --> 05:22:15.200 all right? When we're when you argue on that level, 5700 05:22:15.479 --> 05:22:17.200 there's no way to distinguish. 5701 05:22:17.279 --> 05:22:19.119 I mean, of course there is. What do you mean, 5702 05:22:19.240 --> 05:22:21.919 how else would we argue how else would we argue 5703 05:22:21.959 --> 05:22:24.840 against how else would we argue against a Muslim? If 5704 05:22:24.880 --> 05:22:27.360 you can't distinguish on the trinitarian level, which ones which 5705 05:22:27.400 --> 05:22:28.040 true and falls. 5706 05:22:28.759 --> 05:22:30.720 I didn't see on the trinitaryarian level. 5707 05:22:31.040 --> 05:22:32.959 I just made the argument on the trinitarian level. 5708 05:22:33.000 --> 05:22:33.400 What do you mean? 5709 05:22:33.680 --> 05:22:36.319 Fine? Okay, I thought you were responding to what I said. Okay, 5710 05:22:36.400 --> 05:22:39.560 so I was okay, all right, all right, I'm. 5711 05:22:39.400 --> 05:22:40.040 Willing to let it go. 5712 05:22:40.360 --> 05:22:41.479 I don't know if this is helping you. 5713 05:22:41.680 --> 05:22:42.479 It really isn't. 5714 05:22:42.840 --> 05:22:45.040 It's helping me, Like I think you're the one that 5715 05:22:45.119 --> 05:22:46.680 isn't helping man. I'm just trying to be mean. 5716 05:22:46.799 --> 05:22:48.520 No, I agree, I'm not trying to be I'm just 5717 05:22:48.599 --> 05:22:50.240 trying not to frustrate anything. 5718 05:22:50.319 --> 05:22:52.200 But it really is a disagreement. So that's why. 5719 05:22:52.319 --> 05:22:56.040 But it's a disagreement because you don't you don't understand that. 5720 05:22:56.240 --> 05:22:58.959 It's like you think that you can't argue paradigms. Is 5721 05:22:59.000 --> 05:22:59.599 that what you think? 5722 05:23:00.360 --> 05:23:01.520 No, I don't think that. 5723 05:23:01.799 --> 05:23:06.759 I think that the transcendental argument demonstrates how everybody has 5724 05:23:06.840 --> 05:23:08.560 a paradigm. But I think that's all it does. 5725 05:23:08.720 --> 05:23:12.080 No, that's that's what you're misunderstanding because you haven't listened 5726 05:23:12.119 --> 05:23:14.040 to me. You said you did. I've argued for years 5727 05:23:14.080 --> 05:23:17.200 now that it requires a specific type of God in metaphysic. 5728 05:23:17.439 --> 05:23:21.400 Don't you understand that Christianity presents a specific trinitarian metaphysic. 5729 05:23:21.439 --> 05:23:24.360 And when I say that, you said Christianity. Yes. And 5730 05:23:24.479 --> 05:23:27.119 when I say that, you say, you can't argue that. 5731 05:23:27.439 --> 05:23:29.360 Why would you think that? I've been arguing this for years. 5732 05:23:32.040 --> 05:23:34.080 The one, so, the one in the many is the 5733 05:23:34.200 --> 05:23:36.080 only the only thing that sets it aside. 5734 05:23:36.119 --> 05:23:38.880 I know, of course, not where are you getting I 5735 05:23:39.840 --> 05:23:40.959 mean no, I mean. 5736 05:23:41.000 --> 05:23:43.240 As a response to what I'm saying as a response. 5737 05:23:43.279 --> 05:23:46.159 Now, that's just one example of where Bonson fails. Bonson 5738 05:23:46.159 --> 05:23:48.599 fails on the nature person distinction. He fails in the 5739 05:23:48.720 --> 05:23:51.639 essence interrodustinction. He has the absolute divine simplicity position of 5740 05:23:51.639 --> 05:23:54.119 a Roman Catholics, and so that makes God unknowable. All 5741 05:23:54.200 --> 05:23:57.240 of these things would contribute to why his trinity fails 5742 05:23:57.319 --> 05:23:58.919 to do the grounding work. Do you know what I 5743 05:23:59.000 --> 05:23:59.799 mean when I say that. 5744 05:24:01.759 --> 05:24:03.200 I believe I understand what you're saying. 5745 05:24:03.279 --> 05:24:03.959 Yes, I do believe. 5746 05:24:04.000 --> 05:24:04.919 I understand what you're saying. 5747 05:24:04.959 --> 05:24:08.360 Okay, so you have to have the metaphysics, so well, 5748 05:24:08.400 --> 05:24:09.919 then that answers your dilemma. 5749 05:24:13.159 --> 05:24:16.240 Okay, all right, all right, I can see that point. 5750 05:24:16.279 --> 05:24:18.400 Yes, I'm not like it, but you seem like you don't. 5751 05:24:18.560 --> 05:24:20.319 So you're just saying that to not have an argument 5752 05:24:20.439 --> 05:24:20.959 or something like that. 5753 05:24:21.040 --> 05:24:23.200 Well, no, I know, I mean I'm working it through. 5754 05:24:23.400 --> 05:24:25.159 But yeah, I am working it through. What can I 5755 05:24:25.200 --> 05:24:27.799 say like it to me? Again, I'm trying to I'm 5756 05:24:27.880 --> 05:24:30.959 just trying to explain that the paradigm level argument is 5757 05:24:31.119 --> 05:24:34.400 just everybody claiming their paradigm. So it's all circular. Because 5758 05:24:34.439 --> 05:24:37.680 you did mention that there's internal You've missed. 5759 05:24:37.720 --> 05:24:40.000 You've missed the entire point of TAG, which is to 5760 05:24:40.319 --> 05:24:45.560 compare and dispreparadigms by internal inconsistencies at a fundamental level, 5761 05:24:45.599 --> 05:24:49.400 which make knowledge and metaphysics and ethics impossible in that system. So, 5762 05:24:49.439 --> 05:24:52.959 if you want me to be precise with Monson, Bonson's worldview, 5763 05:24:53.040 --> 05:24:56.799 even though he admits TAG doesn't work to do the 5764 05:24:57.040 --> 05:24:59.720 grounding work that he needs it to do because the 5765 05:25:00.279 --> 05:25:03.360 that he wants to ground it in is unknowable, untouchable, 5766 05:25:03.520 --> 05:25:06.400 doesn't interact with the world ultimately because it's the Calvinist deity. 5767 05:25:06.680 --> 05:25:07.240 So that's. 5768 05:25:08.759 --> 05:25:10.919 One example, and that's why it doesn't work to do 5769 05:25:11.000 --> 05:25:15.119 any one in many grounding. Sure, you don't Okay, yeah, 5770 05:25:16.159 --> 05:25:18.840 go ahead. That's what I've been saying for years now. 5771 05:25:19.880 --> 05:25:20.840 No, and I've been listening. 5772 05:25:20.840 --> 05:25:23.799 I just don't like how these all tie together. Like, look, 5773 05:25:23.840 --> 05:25:26.560 the transcedental argument is just one argument. That's how I 5774 05:25:26.720 --> 05:25:27.000 see it. 5775 05:25:27.080 --> 05:25:30.200 But you're stating it on a much way. 5776 05:25:30.319 --> 05:25:32.520 You said you've been listening to me for years. I've 5777 05:25:32.599 --> 05:25:34.119 been making this point for years. 5778 05:25:34.759 --> 05:25:37.680 Okay, so yeah, almost, Okay, so I'm just slow then, 5779 05:25:37.759 --> 05:25:39.919 but I'm like, I do, I do feel like I'm 5780 05:25:40.799 --> 05:25:43.200 me I'm understanding the transcendental argument. 5781 05:25:43.840 --> 05:25:46.680 It's listen, maybe this is what help. It's an argument 5782 05:25:47.000 --> 05:25:49.919 for a paradigm. It's not an argument for an abstract 5783 05:25:50.000 --> 05:25:53.840 thing like conceptual reality or universals. It's an argument for 5784 05:25:53.959 --> 05:25:54.959 the entire paradigm. 5785 05:25:55.799 --> 05:25:58.680 Okay, could I just ask you a question that clarifies. Okay, listen, 5786 05:25:58.880 --> 05:26:02.000 if someone can make an argument, can that argument be 5787 05:26:02.119 --> 05:26:04.919 used for different for different traditions, or for different things. 5788 05:26:05.040 --> 05:26:06.639 I mean that in my mind, that's. 5789 05:26:06.520 --> 05:26:09.520 Just it doesn't matter, so you keep confusing things that 5790 05:26:09.560 --> 05:26:11.919 are irrelevant to whether it's true or false. So that'd 5791 05:26:11.959 --> 05:26:14.680 be like saying, I mean, could a Mormon use a 5792 05:26:14.799 --> 05:26:19.439 cosmological argument? And does that make the cosmological argument useless 5793 05:26:19.479 --> 05:26:21.880 because Mormons use it. You see how silly that would 5794 05:26:21.959 --> 05:26:22.680 I'm not saying. 5795 05:26:22.599 --> 05:26:24.840 Use the form of the argument can still be valid 5796 05:26:24.919 --> 05:26:27.080 in my opinion, That's what I'm saying, the form of 5797 05:26:27.119 --> 05:26:27.680 the argument. 5798 05:26:27.759 --> 05:26:30.360 No, No, you're missing the point, the fact that if 5799 05:26:30.840 --> 05:26:35.680 a Mormon and an atheist and a scientologist use the 5800 05:26:35.799 --> 05:26:41.439 cosmological argument, that doesn't make the cosmological argument relativized to 5801 05:26:41.599 --> 05:26:44.919 the systems. It just means that somebody's are all three 5802 05:26:45.040 --> 05:26:48.240 are misusing it incorrectly and they're inconsistent. Do you see that? 5803 05:26:49.400 --> 05:26:49.680 Okay? 5804 05:26:49.959 --> 05:26:51.840 And again this is where I would disagree. I would 5805 05:26:51.840 --> 05:26:55.159 say they're using the argument, they're just plugging in different 5806 05:26:55.439 --> 05:26:57.360 values for what you then, what. 5807 05:26:57.520 --> 05:26:59.759 The transcenental argument is actually that you have to give 5808 05:26:59.759 --> 05:27:04.240 a count for cosmology and causation itself. You say, so, 5809 05:27:04.319 --> 05:27:06.119 it's a bigger picture than that. It's an argument for 5810 05:27:06.200 --> 05:27:11.080 a paradigm. It's not an argument for Do you understand 5811 05:27:11.080 --> 05:27:13.080 when I say it's an argument for the entire Christian 5812 05:27:13.119 --> 05:27:19.279 paradigm that includes Christian metaphysics. I don't think you're understanding 5813 05:27:19.319 --> 05:27:21.279 that it's an argument for a paradigm, not for a 5814 05:27:21.360 --> 05:27:22.279 peace of the worldview. 5815 05:27:23.119 --> 05:27:25.720 No, I think I understand a paradigm level argument. 5816 05:27:25.840 --> 05:27:25.880 No. 5817 05:27:26.040 --> 05:27:29.000 No, not a paradigm level argument. The argument is for 5818 05:27:29.240 --> 05:27:31.880 the entire Christian paradigm, right, for that's what I. 5819 05:27:31.919 --> 05:27:33.799 Meant by okay, excuse me, I take that back. 5820 05:27:33.880 --> 05:27:36.240 A paradigm okay, argument for the paradigm. 5821 05:27:36.319 --> 05:27:39.479 Yes, I understand that answers your question. So, in other words, 5822 05:27:39.479 --> 05:27:44.759 if a person uses something from my paradigm like teleology 5823 05:27:44.880 --> 05:27:49.479 or causation, that doesn't make my paradigm relativized, and it 5824 05:27:49.560 --> 05:27:52.159 doesn't mean I can't disprove them because they're using elements 5825 05:27:52.200 --> 05:27:52.880 of my worldview. 5826 05:27:53.680 --> 05:27:57.119 So I'm not saying it invalidates you using the argument. 5827 05:27:57.279 --> 05:28:00.279 I'm just saying it doesn't do the work of all 5828 05:28:00.360 --> 05:28:01.919 the work that someone would want it to do. 5829 05:28:02.080 --> 05:28:02.360 That's all. 5830 05:28:02.720 --> 05:28:05.680 But that's because you misunderstand what the argument is, thinking 5831 05:28:05.720 --> 05:28:07.680 that it's only half of the job, which is just 5832 05:28:08.200 --> 05:28:11.520 saying that there's a paradigm level thing. It's also the 5833 05:28:11.639 --> 05:28:15.439 positive case of presenting the Christian paradigm in Christian metaphysics. 5834 05:28:15.520 --> 05:28:18.799 That's the other half of the argument. You can't just say, well, 5835 05:28:19.080 --> 05:28:24.279 I believe that everybody has presuppositions about ethics, metaphysics and uh, 5836 05:28:24.439 --> 05:28:27.159 you know, knowledge and the other positions are inconsistent. That 5837 05:28:27.319 --> 05:28:29.799 doesn't prove your position. You also have to give the 5838 05:28:29.880 --> 05:28:34.319 positive case for Christian metaphysics, Christian ethics, and Christian epistemology, 5839 05:28:34.599 --> 05:28:36.560 and that is only found in the worldview. That's why 5840 05:28:36.560 --> 05:28:37.919 it's an argument for an entire worldview. 5841 05:28:38.000 --> 05:28:41.360 When I hear the transcendental argument, I do see. I 5842 05:28:41.560 --> 05:28:43.279 just see it was what you first stated. 5843 05:28:43.360 --> 05:28:47.560 That's that's that's that's what I've been arguing for your Well. 5844 05:28:47.479 --> 05:28:48.000 I understand. 5845 05:28:48.080 --> 05:28:50.279 I just that's why I'm disagreeing, and that's why I 5846 05:28:50.360 --> 05:28:50.880 was debating it. 5847 05:28:51.000 --> 05:28:55.639 So yeah, I understand, Okay, fair enough, that's okay. Yeah, 5848 05:28:55.639 --> 05:28:58.279 I've got some other talks where I think the Phaser talk. 5849 05:28:58.360 --> 05:29:00.360 If you go watch that one recritique phase, I go 5850 05:29:00.479 --> 05:29:02.720 into why it's got to be more than just the 5851 05:29:02.799 --> 05:29:05.720 negative critique. Also, be sure to read the Manion paper 5852 05:29:05.759 --> 05:29:07.520 I think you would do well to read, because Manion 5853 05:29:07.599 --> 05:29:10.720 in that paper of the Contingency of Knowledge, he talks 5854 05:29:10.759 --> 05:29:13.799 about why, even if you just disprove the other world views, 5855 05:29:14.360 --> 05:29:18.720 you also got to do the positive work to present 5856 05:29:18.840 --> 05:29:21.959 you your position, because just a negative critique is not 5857 05:29:22.080 --> 05:29:28.639 enough to justify your position. Jack. Oh he dropped right 5858 05:29:28.639 --> 05:29:46.759 when I'm adding him. You there, bleak, bleak, Hello, can. 5859 05:29:46.680 --> 05:29:48.759 You hear me, sir? Amazing? 5860 05:29:50.000 --> 05:29:53.759 Okay, it's so stupid, I'm okay. So I never spoke 5861 05:29:53.840 --> 05:29:55.720 on the next space before anyway. 5862 05:29:56.240 --> 05:30:01.319 So you said, I believe you said that Gnostics and 5863 05:30:02.119 --> 05:30:06.599 I'm talking about the Christian Christianity, A Gnosticism and Christianity. 5864 05:30:07.919 --> 05:30:12.799 Uh all believed across the board that Jesus didn't have 5865 05:30:12.919 --> 05:30:16.240 a real human body, that he was ephemeral or some 5866 05:30:16.439 --> 05:30:16.959 kind of a No. 5867 05:30:17.080 --> 05:30:20.840 I said, I said, docitists believe that. I'd say all gnostics. 5868 05:30:21.240 --> 05:30:23.560 Oh okay, Oh, that's what I was going to say, 5869 05:30:23.599 --> 05:30:26.240 because I thought you just said gnostics. 5870 05:30:26.080 --> 05:30:27.639 Didn't believe that. I didn't hear that. 5871 05:30:28.000 --> 05:30:29.040 When when are you talking? 5872 05:30:30.479 --> 05:30:30.759 Uh you? 5873 05:30:31.279 --> 05:30:33.040 That's what I was going to say, you know the quatism? 5874 05:30:33.560 --> 05:30:36.599 Are you talking about the interview with a pastate prophet? 5875 05:30:37.720 --> 05:30:40.799 What are you talking about the interview of the pastate prophet? 5876 05:30:40.880 --> 05:30:42.680 That's the last time I remember talking about. 5877 05:30:42.400 --> 05:30:45.840 That, No tonight, you said it earlier time. 5878 05:30:46.000 --> 05:30:47.360 I don't remember that coming up tonight. 5879 05:30:47.959 --> 05:30:52.400 Oh well that's why I requested to speak, because that 5880 05:30:52.520 --> 05:30:53.240 you did say that. 5881 05:30:55.040 --> 05:30:55.520 When I took it. 5882 05:30:55.599 --> 05:30:59.560 I didn't catch the doquatism reference. How do you pronounce 5883 05:30:59.639 --> 05:31:00.439 that headism? 5884 05:31:02.080 --> 05:31:02.560 How do you u? 5885 05:31:03.040 --> 05:31:07.759 It's in English? Everybody says docatism, but it's docatism, I 5886 05:31:07.840 --> 05:31:10.119 guess with the k or the hard seat or whatever. 5887 05:31:10.520 --> 05:31:14.000 Yeah, doctism and so yeah, because you know there's there's 5888 05:31:14.080 --> 05:31:17.880 different sects of gnostics, rostics correct, And of course the 5889 05:31:18.000 --> 05:31:24.119 Valentinians did not believe that Jesus was solelya ephemeral you know, spirit. 5890 05:31:23.959 --> 05:31:25.520 Human divine. 5891 05:31:25.919 --> 05:31:27.840 Yeah, correct, you're right out of body. 5892 05:31:27.919 --> 05:31:33.520 Because they didn't believe that the Christ's entered was born 5893 05:31:34.119 --> 05:31:37.360 as you know, that Jesus wasn't born with as Christ, 5894 05:31:37.439 --> 05:31:42.439 that he was imparted with the divinity of Christ, if 5895 05:31:42.479 --> 05:31:43.840 I understand that correctly. 5896 05:31:44.720 --> 05:31:48.200 So that's yeah, is that basically you know? 5897 05:31:49.119 --> 05:31:51.000 That's yeah, that's all you wanted to get to. I 5898 05:31:51.080 --> 05:31:51.720 agree with you on that. 5899 05:31:52.639 --> 05:31:56.279 Okay, Yeah, well thanks for taking my taking my ex 5900 05:31:56.439 --> 05:31:59.360 cherry here, so all right, bye. 5901 05:31:59.200 --> 05:32:01.080 Bye, Thanks Jack. What's up? 5902 05:32:01.159 --> 05:32:13.720 Man? Jack? 5903 05:32:19.200 --> 05:32:19.479 Hello? 5904 05:32:20.639 --> 05:32:24.000 Can you hear me? How are you? Man? 5905 05:32:26.319 --> 05:32:28.400 I don't even know right now. I'm kind of like 5906 05:32:28.520 --> 05:32:30.959 in I'm in I feel like I'm in a dissociative state. 5907 05:32:31.040 --> 05:32:31.360 What's up? 5908 05:32:32.880 --> 05:32:35.639 All right, doing good, but you look like a little 5909 05:32:35.680 --> 05:32:36.159 bit tired. 5910 05:32:38.040 --> 05:32:39.919 Hello, I mean with it. We're going on six hours, 5911 05:32:39.959 --> 05:32:40.439 so what's up? 5912 05:32:40.919 --> 05:32:41.799 Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. 5913 05:32:42.520 --> 05:32:49.279 My question is actually before that, I was surging I 5914 05:32:49.439 --> 05:32:54.479 believe the God. I was surging to religions, like I 5915 05:32:54.599 --> 05:33:01.400 searched Catholic, Catholic religions or Christianity or Islamic or a Buddhisim. 5916 05:33:04.080 --> 05:33:05.720 At that at that point. 5917 05:33:07.080 --> 05:33:10.479 I realized something in the Quran. It was it was 5918 05:33:10.560 --> 05:33:14.520 really interesting. I just want to mention about that because 5919 05:33:14.720 --> 05:33:18.200 my question is related with this information. 5920 05:33:19.040 --> 05:33:19.159 Uh. 5921 05:33:21.159 --> 05:33:26.200 Yeah. When I started the Quran, I I read some 5922 05:33:28.400 --> 05:33:33.360 I read some academic writer and they was mentioned about that. 5923 05:33:33.560 --> 05:33:33.919 It was. 5924 05:33:36.439 --> 05:33:48.599 Like Smarianism, Aztecs Babylon or Judaism or Genesis Talmud or 5925 05:33:49.799 --> 05:33:57.200 gold Muskatonic, Katonical and Apercle Gospels. 5926 05:33:57.840 --> 05:34:00.080 Uh, and like history after. 5927 05:34:00.080 --> 05:34:10.360 Religions me trilogists like astronomy, Madison, physics, okay, what trilogy 5928 05:34:11.639 --> 05:34:15.040 or just a second uh, just like. 5929 05:34:16.759 --> 05:34:17.159 Egypt. 5930 05:34:20.279 --> 05:34:23.400 And my question is that, like you're not going to 5931 05:34:23.439 --> 05:34:27.919 read a whole encyclopedia entrance and then tell me to 5932 05:34:28.040 --> 05:34:31.880 hold on. I think my mind is about mush. I 5933 05:34:31.919 --> 05:34:34.840 don't think I can go on anymore. Uh, thank you guys. 5934 05:34:34.880 --> 05:34:41.040 A lot of fun tonight, Wild I'm spent on mush. Everybody, 5935 05:34:41.080 --> 05:34:41.560 have a good night.