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Speaker 1: The of, the of, the the the, the, the dot

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to the.

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Speaker 2: Day.

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Speaker 3: Fo you gottle dottle bodn't brittle poopoo, Papa Papa.

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Speaker 4: This is the Elon my song. I love it. It's

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become my favorite song. This is that South South Africa mix.

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This that there's that Elon South Africa mix. Then it

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comes up with that emotional orchestral and then we get

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some drops and fat beats. Oh right, yet I'm joking.

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Actually this song is the worst. I can't stand that song.

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Oh that's the that's that Elon mix right there. Yeah,

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I muted on Twitter because I was listening to them

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hype beats from DJ Elon and the South Africa South

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Africa boys. That's that South Africa mix. Then' that South

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Africa mixed boy, which doesn't make sense because that's that's

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a that's a Jamaican accine broader.

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Speaker 5: That the Jamaican accent rad Yeah what you're doing, thesis,

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you're ra sister.

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Speaker 6: Me go to pet turtle. It is ureases.

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Speaker 7: Me.

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Speaker 6: Grind up the turtle, make him into a powder on

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smoking men. Smoke the turtle. Everything you faking? Yeah, why

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are you gay?

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Speaker 5: This is the Island mix the South Africa Island mix

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me go to nice and sweating.

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Speaker 4: Now, why are you gay? You are gay? What's up?

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Speaker 8: What's up?

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Speaker 4: Open Forum debates what's happening to redeem zoomer Well. I

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suspect he is at the stage that many of us

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have gone through. Many of us got to the point

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where we started to wonder if Protestantism might itself just

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not be correct. So I think that's where he's at.

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He said today, I would like to announce I'm giving

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up Protestant apologetics. It's the biggest waste of time of

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my life. I haven't defended Protestanism one bit. I've only

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made people leave Protestanism. Seeing how bad I was at it,

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I think that it was a noble attempt. I think

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that it's just Protestantism. RZ. It's not your fault. I'm

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annoyed at smarter Protestants who could have helped me, and

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they didn't want to create YouTube channels. They were armchair quarterbacks.

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I realized that Protestanism is the currency, is not something

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that I can defend, that can be defended with a

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straight face. It's a joke. So I'm going to go

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defend institutional Protestanism. Well, if Protestism is a thing that's

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stupid to defend, it's even dumber to go and defend

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it in the institution, which is the thing that you're

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admitting is weak, anti intellectual, and corrupt. If you want

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to convert to Catholic, Oriental or Orthodox, I can't say

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I prove, but I also can't blame you. So he's

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at I think the stage that many of us enter.

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So pray for redem Zoomer to become Orthodox. I suspect,

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given the commitment to Calvinism, that he will. Okay, I'll

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fix the volume that he will see anytime I go

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on stream yard stream yards, people's streams automatically puts the

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volume low. So that's why, so you have to go

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in and change it every time because it's too bid streammarks.

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But so rz is at the state we're all I

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suspect because of the commitment within Calvinism to Augustinian is

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some predestination that he will not, at any point soon

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wants to give up the Augustinian stuff, and I suspect

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that would lead him if he did leave Protestantism to

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Rome unfortunately. But pray for him. Maybe he will maybe

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he will come more in our direction. You what hit

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like and share. Welcome everybody. We're going to open it

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up to debates, discussions topics. Personally, I've been reading through

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Jeremiah again. Usually when I finish Isaiah, I go to Jeremia.

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I've been I've been cycling through the profits, the major

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profits in the last couple of years, and then I'll

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do Ezekiel again. So a lot of that stays fresh

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in my mind, and that tends to be pretty good

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for regular interactions with Muslims, with evangelical, dispensationalists, protest minded people,

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people who don't think the Trinity is sought in the

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Old Testament, and also the Psalms. So I'm reading back through.

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I'm up to Psalm I don't know what, forget what

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Psalm twenty or so I'm at Jeremiah thirty five or six,

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and then I'll probably do Ezekiel again. And part of

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the goal for that is to really have these major

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profits fresh in my mind, and I find that cycling

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through them over and over it really helps them to

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be ingrained in my mind. A particular note was the

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insights in Jeremiah thirty one. It is different in the

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Orthodox Bible because it's the subtuagen. So the chapters in Jeremiah,

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as you may or may not know, or number differently,

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so this will get very confusing. Jeremiah thirty one in

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the propt Bible is Jeremiah thirty eight ish in the

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Orthodox Bible because of the septuagen But of course the

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most this is one of the most famous passages. And

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I was just thinking of this in terms of both

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Islam and Judaism, that we are told that the emergence

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of the Messiah is signified by a new Covenant, which

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is interesting because if you think of the Jews, Jews

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are always the mosaic Covenant is the pinnacle, it will

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never go away. And yet we're told in Jeremiah's day

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that a new Covenant is coming that is not according

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to the Covenant of Sinai. I'm sure Jews have all

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kinds of ways that they would interpret that. But also

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replies it applies to Muslims because Muslims assume that they

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are the finality of the divine revelation of the One

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True God and that Muhammad was the last of the prophets.

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Yet there is nothing in Islam akin to covenant theology,

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the entire Bible, the entire structure of the Bible. Something

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that Judaism at least and Christianity have in common because

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of the Torah and the prophets in common is the

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notion of God relating to his people via a covenant relationship.

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And so we have a new covenant again here, and

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Jeremiah thirty one discusses this and the eternality of the

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seed of Israel, the eternality of the life of the

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Messiah when this new Covenant comes, and then it's also

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spoken of again after Jeremiah buys a field and prays

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for understanding, all of which is a type and a

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symbol of the land and the restoration. The restoration, of course,

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ultimately is when the Messiah comes and restores Israel in

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the sense of creating the new Israel, the new Covenant,

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the spiritual Israel, which Israel in the land in history

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is a type symbol foreshadowing. But both Jeremiah thirty one

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and thirty three are very insightful in terms of this

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new Covenant and what it's explained in Jeremiah thirty three.

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The new Covenant that we're talking of here with these

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priests and ministers, and the seed of David my servant

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and his ministers is akin to the eternality of the

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covenant with night and day, or the covenant of Genesis

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in the creation of the world. So the very creation

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of the world in Genesis is covenantal. And then of

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course this also is closely linked to the Noeic Covenant,

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where God speaks of a lot of elements within nature

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that signs seasons. My covenant with nature will not depart.

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So this is at once a reference back to Genesis

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and to Noah into the New Covenant as well as

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a reference to the Davidic Covenant. And what's fascinating about

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Jeremi I thirty one and thirty three is the contrast

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to the Mosaic Covenant. Now that does not mean the

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Mosaic Covenant is something that we don't consider as part

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of the covenantal structure. It's just that in terms of

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the newness of the Covenant, when the Messiah comes, it

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will specifically not be exactly like the Mosaic Covenant, as

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Jeremi I thirty one said, not according to the Covenant

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of Sinai, but will there will be a likening to

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and a referencing to Genesis and Noah, the Adamic Covenant

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and the Noaic Covenant. That is why in jeremi Em

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excuse me, in the Acts fifteen, when the apostles are

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discussing the means by which JENTI would be brought into

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this very covenant that you see here in Jeremiah, it's

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on the basis of the requirements in the Noea Covenant.

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When the Jerusalem Council meets an next fifteen, they discuss, Look,

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if Noah could be made righteous without circumcision, because this

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is centuries prior to Abraham, thank you, then we ought

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not require of gentile converts anything more than was required

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in the Noea Covenant. If Noah was righteous, then that's

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good or no, right, that's the decision that they're now.

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Are they just making this up based up no Jeremiah

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is rarely referenced in terms of Acts fifteen, But if

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you read Jeremiah consistently through chapter by chapter, even in

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the Masoretic text, you can see that that's the pattern

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here of the description of the New Covenant. And again,

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oftentimes we look at Jeremiah thirty one because it's so

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famous for the New Covenant statement, but we forget. Jeremiah

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thirty three is also part of that discourse of this

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section of Jeremiah, and it also links the Dividic Covenant

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back to Genesis and to Noah. So what we're seeing

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is that even in the Old Testament there's a continuity

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of the covenants. Now it's true again, the continuity here

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is contrasting the Mosaic Covenant in some aspects, but not totally.

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So we're not totally saying, oh the no, the Mosaic coven,

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it doesn't matter anymore. You'll notice in Jeremiah thirty one

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it does say that the Messiah will have the levites

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and priests that minister to him. In the Orthodox Church,

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we think that's the priest, so that's the diaconate. That is,

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there's still continuity. Jesus says, not even a jot or

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tittle in the law away until all things are fulfilled.

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So how we keep those laws, the ceremonial laws and

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so forth of the Mosaic coven in the New Testament

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for the Gentiles, we still keep them, but we keep

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them in a spiritual way, the way that they're intended

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to be kept for all time. We think and not

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for the limited temporal scope which they did legitimately have

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for a time when the nation of Israel served its

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historical purpose, which was to produce the Messiah. So in

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this way we see a continuity of all the covenants,

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even though there is an element of contrast between Mosaic

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and Messiah's Covenant. Here we see that there's a continuity

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of God's relationship to human beings in history. Thus, to

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bring it not just in contrast to Judaism, but in

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contrast to Islam. Notice how out of accord with all

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of the historical relationships a relationship that God has with

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human beings through covenants, Islam is So you've heard me

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bring this up in debates. Where's the priesthood, where's the altar,

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where's the temple, where's the sacrifice? Where's any of that?

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In Islam? They're they're clueless, They're lost. Danielle says, well,

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we kind of have like in moms and mosque that

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has nothing to do with what we're talking about. It's

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like not even a that's like a pale, not even

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close similarity. There there has to be some form of

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continuity of priesthood, of covenantal relationship and that's why the

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New Testament is very clear. Paul says to the Corinthians,

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all of the promises of the Covenant, that's a covenant reference.

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We got these wine what are these these wine moms

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over here, escape to discovery, cove on these ads. What

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does that have to do with Bible Gateway? Like does

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this suddenly there's a wine mom market for the ads

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over here? But anyway, so you get. The point is

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that the more fluent we are with the Old Testament,

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with the law of the Profits, etc. The better and

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easier it is to see the absurdity, the discontinuity, the

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ad hoc nature of Islam. Yeah, Daniel's like, well, we

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have emoms, Okay, that's nothing. That's not a priest dude,

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what are you talking about? But do you see the

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covenantal structure Jeremiah thirty one, Jeremia thirty three. References to Genesis,

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references to Noah, references by extension to Abraham, references to

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Moses and the Mosaic Covenant, and references to the Dividic covenants.

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So those are all the covenants. Then we have the

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finality of all of those. All of the covenants are

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yay in him. Paul says that means they're all fulfilled

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in Christ. This, by extension, also confronts and refutes dispensationalism.

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So do you see how all of these dumb errors

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and heresies, when we start to understand the cohesive, connected

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narrative of the Bible, ends up refuting all of these

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dumb errors. Whether it's the Judaic error or whether it's

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the Islamic error or the dismensationless error, they all get refuted.

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And by extension, you could even argue they refute Protestantism

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because Protestantism ends up ahistorical, not historically linked to any

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altered temple, priesthood sacrifice. In fact, Protestantism is actually premised

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on rejecting those very things. So just some things that

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came to me as I've been rereading Jeremiah. Obviously there's

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many more things in Jeremiah that's not That's just one

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thing that popped out to me recently. And by the way,

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it also gives a crystallogical meaning. Did you notice this

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to all the other covenants? In other words, the Adamic Covenant.

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When Paul exegutes the Adamic Covenant, how does he explain it?

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Speaker 9: Oh?

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Speaker 4: He says, Christ is the new Atom. So in other words,

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we should have a chrystological interpretation of the covenant with Adam.

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And by the way, there is a covenant with Adam.

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It's said to be a covenant in the minor prophets,

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my covenant with Adam in the nowaic covenant. You think, well,

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that's just a covenant of God's providence in nature, regularity

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in nature. Oh, but it's also chrystological. Doesn't the New

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Testament give that a crystall logical interpretation? The arc is

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the church. No one's like Christ, et cetera. Abraham, Well,

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that's obviously in Paul's letters and the epistles Galatians. Right,

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even in Hebrews, the Gospel was preached beforehand to the forefathers.

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The Gospel is preached to Abraham, Paul says a Galatians. Again,

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continuity here, and see consistency. Each covenant builds on the

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previous one. And even if when the Messiah comes, he

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by his authority, because he's the one that gave the

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law to Moses. Even if he says, some of these

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things are fulfilled because I have now come, that doesn't

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mean we're arbitrarily throwing out the Old Testament laws like

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Messianic Jews think, or like dismiss we are Protestant seven

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day avn is or something think or Bryson and his

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goofy gris what that is?

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Speaker 10: What that is?

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Speaker 11: What that is?

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Speaker 2: What that is?

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Speaker 12: Right?

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Speaker 4: Bryson's nonsense?

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Speaker 2: Uh?

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Speaker 4: Anyway, whoever else, Because he's the Messiah, he has the

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authority to say, these are the elements that are fulfilled.

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And remember, even with this is something everybody misses that

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doctor Branson brings up. I brought this up too. Even

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Jews understand that not every aspect of the law was

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for all of the gentiles. So Hebrew roots people and

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other would be objectors don't even understand the Jewish view

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of the law. I mean, you can't even keep the

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first of all, you can't keep all the walls anyway,

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but you can't even keep the land law. How is

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the how is a gentile a thousand years later? And

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or now?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 4: How am I supposed to keep land walls? Am I

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supposed to keep the Jubilee laws? This is crazy. Obviously,

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the intention for this religion to be universal, which is

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an intention the Messiah will come and the worship of

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the God of the Jews will be made universal. Okay, well,

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how could that happen if literally all aspects of the

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Mosaic law we're intended for the entire world. Obviously it's

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not and Jews don't even believe that. That's what I'm

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trying to say. And ironically, what's the Jewish answer? Oh,

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all the Noah Hyde laws. Well, isn't that interesting that

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in Acts fifteen that's what the Christians already chose to do.

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The apostles who were Jews chose to do that in

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Acts fifteen. And I'm not equating Acts fifteen identically to

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the Rabbinical idea of Noa Hyde laws. You get my

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point though, anyway, So if we understand these things, we

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begin to see how oh it and then actually a

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lot of this is just totally refutes Islam, Rabbinic Judaism,

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weird Protestant deviations and sex. So we're going to open

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it up. It's open for him. That means that you

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can you can ask a question if you want. You

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don't have to debate, but I do give priority to

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people who want to present an argument and would like

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to present some form of debate. If you would like

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to make if you say, hey, I want to make

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several minute argument here, let me make my case. I

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will let you do that. I will not interrupt unless

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you start making fallacies or say something really ridiculous and stupid.

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Then I will interrupt you and bring you back to

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the point. If we are going back and forth, it

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is my channel, it is my stream. I will interrupt

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you if I want to, if you especially are making

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dumb arguments, fallacies, red herrings, or whatever. Now I think

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we had a Catholic guy who has popped up here. First, Drego,

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Ivan Drago, what's up.

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Speaker 2: Man, Jay, what's happened? Yes, sir, Yeah, I just caught

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the tail end here.

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Speaker 13: It's super interesting because I run into well you mentioned

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Bryson and a lot.

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Speaker 2: Of people in that movement as well.

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Speaker 13: I think one of the caveats they say is that, oh,

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you know, some of these laws are contingent upon their

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a temple. So that's the reason they don't apply because

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there is an a temple.

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Speaker 2: But you wait, once the temple comes back, you better

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get your goats ready because you're going to have to

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start doing some sacrifices.

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Speaker 4: Well again, like you know, you have all of these

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prophecies like among the nations, my name will be great,

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and my incense will be offered to my name among

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the gentiles. Right like the minor prophets, those are clearly

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Messianic prophecies that extend the altar and the incense and

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the priesthood outside of the limitations of physical Israel. How

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is that possible? Isaiah in two or three places mentions

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gentile priests, how is that even possible? And so Bryson

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has actually missed the very point of the coming of

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the Messiah, which is to bring the Melchizedekian priesthood, which

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the author of Hebrews says very clearly in chapter seven

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is superior to the Iaronic priesthood. So Bryson is actually

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really just a retard.

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Speaker 13: Well, yeah, I don't I don't understand now the milk

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because at that point gets rationalized.

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Speaker 2: But but there, you know, there is a way that

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they rationalize it.

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Speaker 13: What you know one, So I've got it pretty in

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depth with this because I was shocked when I first

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heard you know this, you need to follow mosaic law stuff,

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and I'm like, there's no way, like the scriptures can

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support it. But then there, you know, they have enough

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of like acrobatics. And I mean in some sense, actually,

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I mean fair enough, when Christ said I don't want

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to destroy the law.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm not going to abolish the law.

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Speaker 13: I mean, there is a lot of rhetorical force, and

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they have an interpreted interpretive framework where there is some

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merit to their lens from a Bible alone perspective, which

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obviously we rejected that the sol scripture concept. But looking

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into history, I'm like, well, it seems like the fathers

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actually debated this, and it wasn't until like Augustin and Jerome,

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when they had letters back and forth, they finally.

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Speaker 2: Agreed on the role of the Mosaic law.

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Speaker 13: Because in the pro mosaic side, Jesus followed the law.

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You had the early Apostles, the Disciples, the first generation

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of Christians seemingly followed the Mosaic law.

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Speaker 2: And so I mean, do you think that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I don't mean to be contentious, but I

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don't think that's true at all. The idea that the

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Church had not settled this issue until the fourth century

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with Roman and Augustine, I think is pretty preposterous. I

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think that the Letter of Hebrews solved this issue. I

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think that within the Book of Acts itself, Paul had

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to struggle to really convince people, even like Peter, that

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his position was the correct one. You know, God had

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to send Peter three visions about the food laws and

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that the dietary laws were not applicable to gentiles, and

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that they were symbolic. And that's why throughout Paul's epistles

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he's constantly having to stress this, whether it's Galatians, whether

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it's Hebrews, or whether it's you know, his his arguments

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with Peter. No, it is this is not something that's

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quote settled by the fourth century Latin Church fathers. The

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remnants I think of this. The latest, in my opinion,

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would be the Quartodscaminarian controversy, which has elements of a

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holdover of Jewish calendar dates. That's probably the latest that

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I would say, you could you could find this judaizing tendency,

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and that's like, you know, one eighty one is the

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latest because Aeronais rebukes Pope Saint Victor over the trying

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to force one tradition tradition over the whole church, which

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was concerning the Quartodessemonarian controversy. So just with a New

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Testament execusis itself. No, I think that this issue is

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settled by the time of Late within the Book of

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Acts and Paul's later epistles.

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Speaker 13: Well, do you might even though I agree with you

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that you know we're not found by the mosaic law?

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Can I offer a steel man here? Because I've gotten

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pretty I pushed back. I've quoted the Peter vision, I've

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quoted all this stuff, and can I give you a

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steel man of what?

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Speaker 4: They would say, Well, you can, absolutely, But I would

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point out that I did debate Bryson, so I'm familiar

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with some of their positions. They Oh, yeah, I did

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about a three hour debate with Bryson. You can look

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that up. But yeah, go ahead, I.

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Speaker 2: Gotta look at it.

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Speaker 13: Yeah, I mean the Peter's vision, right a rise, kill

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and eat rightly after that vision, you know, he says, well,

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the purpose is to you know, point to not separating

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yourself from.

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Speaker 2: The gentiles, which, of course is like, well.

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Speaker 13: Why would God use the means of having you eat

398
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the animals if he wasn't fine with it? But they're

399
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saying that the problem is that the Jews of the

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day took the priestly rules and they made them requirements.

401
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Speaker 2: For like being a true Jew or salvation.

402
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Speaker 13: Right, so like even with the circumcision, their reframe of

403
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back fifteen Council of jerusalemess to say not that circumcision

404
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is abolished, but that it's not required to become one

405
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of God's people.

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Speaker 2: But once you are God's people, you should follow the law.

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Speaker 13: And I know it sounds a little bit of like acrobatics,

408
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but but that'.

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Speaker 4: I mean if you took maybe that in isolation from acts, okay, maybe,

410
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but look, we have Paul's epistles many times over Colossians Timothy,

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for example, Paul says to Timothy, right, nothing in itself

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is unclean, but rather all meats are clean when they

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are sanctified by the word of God and prayer. For

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Simothy four to five in Colostionans, he talks about how, look,

415
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circumcision or uncircumcision means nothing. In fact, baptism is the

416
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new circumcision, and circumcision had no ability to do anything. Baptism,

417
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Paul says, is the power of regeneration. So they're so

418
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foolish is to not even understand that baptismal regeneration disproves

419
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their idea about continuing to do circumcisions Paul saying that

420
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it's not just that the Old Testament rituals and rights

421
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were symbolic, it's also that the rights of the New

422
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Testament actually bring the grace they signify, whereas the rights

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of the Old Testament pointed to the New Testament rights.

424
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So what does circuits decision point two? Water baptism? So

425
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it would be a reversion, which is what the entire

426
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,359
argument of the look of Hebrews is, to go back

427
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to doing the rituals that are signs and symbols of

428
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the realities that have come in this case, namely water baptism.

429
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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I agree with you.

430
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Speaker 4: So I well, I mean what would they say to

431
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first Timothy four and five that foods are not unclean?

432
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In fact, foods aren't made clean by the work by praying.

433
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd have to review my notes on that, fair enough.

434
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I know.

435
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Speaker 13: A big pivot is they always backtrack to, well, you

436
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had the mission that you had these extra pharaistical laws

437
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and like the washing of hands, because even like in

438
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Mark was.

439
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Speaker 2: It Mark seven where there's about cleanliness and.

440
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Speaker 13: You know, yeah, I'd have to go back to specifically

441
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and the Timothy thing one reference I'll say though, it's

442
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,519
a pretty powerful organization in this movement. It's called one

443
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one nine Ministries, and they have really strong rhetorical chops

444
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and frankly, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean they do have some scholarship stuff.

446
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Speaker 13: They they have the alternative interpretation on every challenging scripture.

447
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Speaker 2: So I'll go back, I'll see what they have to

448
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say about the first time.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean, what's what I mean, the whole Book

450
00:32:14,279 --> 00:32:17,759
of Hebrews really is, you know, geared towards pointing out

451
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that now that the realities have come, to go back

452
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to the shadows which are types. Is absurd. So I mean,

453
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just just the whole purpose of two epistles in the

454
00:32:29,039 --> 00:32:32,960
New Testament are directed towards refuting the Judaizing heresy. So

455
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the fact that they would even attempt to like this

456
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,119
is like, I mean, this is as silly as saying,

457
00:32:38,319 --> 00:32:42,519
you know, like the New Testament doesn't teach the deep Christ.

458
00:32:42,599 --> 00:32:44,880
I mean, there's like so many passages that the deal with,

459
00:32:45,079 --> 00:32:47,079
I mean, the Gospel of John is all about the

460
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deed of Christ. So it's to me it's as absurd

461
00:32:50,519 --> 00:32:53,079
to say that, you know, we've got to keep these

462
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ceremonial laws and another indicator, by the way that these

463
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,000
people are heretical sects is that many of them, like

464
00:32:59,119 --> 00:33:02,200
Bryson did, they don't teach the duty of Christ. I mean,

465
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that's a pretty good indicator that you're dealing with a

466
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,200
heretical sect. What do they and they don't want to

467
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,119
talk about that. So if you go watch my bryceon debate,

468
00:33:08,559 --> 00:33:10,559
I bring this up and it makes him mad and

469
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:11,960
he explicitly says, I don't.

470
00:33:11,799 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 14: Want to talk about that. We are supposed to be

471
00:33:13,319 --> 00:33:15,200
that we need to bate Net, we need debate Deity.

472
00:33:16,119 --> 00:33:20,079
We're supposed to debate only his interpretation of Matthew five.

473
00:33:20,799 --> 00:33:24,720
And my point is that like, if your sect is true,

474
00:33:25,359 --> 00:33:26,319
you would at least.

475
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 4: Get the weightier matters of the law, like the deity

476
00:33:28,759 --> 00:33:31,960
of Christ, correct over these things. And what do they do,

477
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,720
like every sect do they want to focus on these

478
00:33:34,839 --> 00:33:38,640
kinds of bodily washings and stupid stuff what Paul calls

479
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,759
the beggarly elements of this world over the more important

480
00:33:41,799 --> 00:33:42,759
doctrines of the Trinity.

481
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 13: Well, right, But I think that that points to the

482
00:33:48,279 --> 00:33:51,200
limitations of like the Sola scripture of framework.

483
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: Anyway, because arguably, if all you have is a Bible.

484
00:33:54,359 --> 00:33:58,839
Speaker 13: You can't necessarily come to the conclusion of trinity and

485
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,279
the deity of Christ with the Scripture alone, like you

486
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,839
needed the authority of the Church, the Apostolic hand up.

487
00:34:04,839 --> 00:34:08,000
Speaker 4: I mean, I disagree with that totally, because Jesus holds

488
00:34:08,079 --> 00:34:11,159
the people in his generation liable for not believing in

489
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,960
him and not believing that the Old Testament teaches the Trinity.

490
00:34:14,119 --> 00:34:17,159
So I totally disagree. I do not believe in solid scriptura,

491
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,440
but I do not believe that belief in the deity

492
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:24,199
of Christ requires the authority of the Church, because before

493
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:29,000
there's even a church set up, Jesus lauds Peter for

494
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,639
proclaiming his deity, and in fact, in John five through nine,

495
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,480
he excoriates the Pharisees for not recognizing that he was

496
00:34:36,519 --> 00:34:39,599
the one that spoke to Moses and to Abraham because

497
00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:40,880
Abraham believed in the Trinity.

498
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,559
Speaker 13: That's interesting, Yet, that sounds like what the religion of

499
00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:46,880
the Apostles book.

500
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,559
Speaker 2: A lot of the old a lot of good.

501
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 4: Goat, right. It's actually the argument of justin against trifle.

502
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:55,760
Speaker 2: The Jews, So justin against TREIFO. Okay, have you read.

503
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,800
Speaker 4: John five through nine. I'm not trying to be a dickhead.

504
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,519
I'm just saying, like, I'm not being rude to you

505
00:35:01,599 --> 00:35:03,719
a but when I hear Roman Catholics say this stuff

506
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,519
to me, it's just sort of signifies, Like I mean,

507
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,559
John five through nine is Jesus constantly arguing with the

508
00:35:09,599 --> 00:35:12,119
Pharisees that you're liable for not believing in me because

509
00:35:12,159 --> 00:35:15,800
the Old Testament all taught me and Abraham worshiped the Trinity.

510
00:35:16,079 --> 00:35:17,079
That do you believe that or not?

511
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,280
Speaker 13: Right, Well, I suppose if you're a Pharisee back then,

512
00:35:23,119 --> 00:35:26,480
you know that there's a Messiah and maybe someone from

513
00:35:26,519 --> 00:35:29,039
the you know, one of the persons of the Trinity,

514
00:35:30,159 --> 00:35:32,199
but you weren't sure. You were trying to discern whether

515
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,480
Jesus Christ there this guy was the Messiah versus some other.

516
00:35:36,559 --> 00:35:40,079
Speaker 4: Well, I understand that. But from this point on afterwards, right,

517
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:42,800
Jesus says to them, you are now liable because you have.

518
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 2: Seen right, because yeah, you've seen it.

519
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 13: Didn't believe exactly at some at some point I would

520
00:35:49,519 --> 00:35:52,559
like to get of course, I wouldn't have expected you

521
00:35:52,679 --> 00:35:55,800
to have this prepared now, but at some point your

522
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,480
opinion on the letter with Augustine and Jerome, because I

523
00:35:58,559 --> 00:36:01,400
know the mosaic while they were debating on it, like

524
00:36:01,519 --> 00:36:04,480
Jerome was confused because you're saying, why did Paul keep

525
00:36:04,559 --> 00:36:07,400
practicing the laws? And any of the conclusion they came

526
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,800
down to is like, if the Jews want to keep

527
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,519
practicing mosaic law, like the converted Christians, let them practice it,

528
00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:16,960
but don't compel the Gentiles to do it. Because and

529
00:36:17,039 --> 00:36:19,199
they said, well, why didn't we abolish the mosaic.

530
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,039
Speaker 2: Law in the first generation.

531
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 13: Augustin said, well, it's like having an honorable funeral.

532
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 2: You don't want to just.

533
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:27,760
Speaker 13: Like desecrate the body. You want to give it a

534
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,159
proper burial, honor the ancestors. Because if we just chopped

535
00:36:31,199 --> 00:36:33,639
the mosaic law in one generation, it would be like

536
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:34,719
suggesting that God.

537
00:36:34,599 --> 00:36:36,599
Speaker 2: Who came up with nonsense in the Old Testament.

538
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,559
Speaker 13: And so that's why there's like a slow transition, which

539
00:36:39,599 --> 00:36:40,960
again it's still kind of perplexing.

540
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:41,760
Speaker 2: It's a mystery to me.

541
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 4: But well, I do agree with slow transition because but

542
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,760
I see that slow transition happening within the first century.

543
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,480
And one element that's often missed that is actually stressed

544
00:36:49,519 --> 00:36:52,079
in the Eastern Fathers is the destruction of the Temple.

545
00:36:52,199 --> 00:36:55,679
So seventy eight D is pretty consistent in you know,

546
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,000
Saint John Christal sermons and so forth. Athletes just talks

547
00:36:59,039 --> 00:37:02,000
about it. Origin even talked about the importance of seventy

548
00:37:02,039 --> 00:37:04,280
a D. Because that was the fulfillment of Luke twenty

549
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,719
one in Matthew twenty four that Jesus tells the people

550
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,159
in front of him in Luke twenty one, when you

551
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,960
see the temple destroyed, know that that's the end of

552
00:37:13,159 --> 00:37:16,920
that old administration. That is heaven and earth being rolled

553
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,840
up like a scroll that Hebrews talked about, because heaven

554
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,920
and earth are symbolized by the temple and its ministry,

555
00:37:23,199 --> 00:37:25,360
and so a lot of people who don't know biblical

556
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,679
ex to Jesus and sort of the patterns of these

557
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,800
events and the abomination of desolation for example, which is

558
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,559
again seventy eight that you's talked about. If you don't

559
00:37:33,639 --> 00:37:36,559
know that important event, you will miss his coming in

560
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:40,440
judgment that he talked about. That is the sign of

561
00:37:40,639 --> 00:37:44,239
the end of the Old Covenant, and that's the divorce

562
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,960
of flesh Israel that the Book of Revelation is talking about.

563
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,239
So you're correct that in the Latin Church, Fathers I

564
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,199
think this is at least with Augustine and Jerome, and

565
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,559
I'm familiar with what you're talking about, Like they don't

566
00:37:55,639 --> 00:37:59,159
typically place the seventy eight destruction as having much at

567
00:37:59,199 --> 00:38:02,239
a redempth of his significance. I'm not sure exactly why

568
00:38:03,079 --> 00:38:06,280
it is very emphasized amongst most of the important Eastern

569
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:07,559
Church fathers for whatever reason.

570
00:38:08,519 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 2: That's really interesting. I have to read more on what

571
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,360
they've said there. Okay, great, well, that was the Mosaic law.

572
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 13: I did have a question, since I'm here with you

573
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,960
on the Catholic stuff, if I could ask, unless you've got.

574
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:19,639
Speaker 2: A hoop on.

575
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,639
Speaker 13: No, it's overformed, dude, sweet sweet, Well, okay, so I

576
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,440
think you've made the claim before the argument of like, well,

577
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,679
why have any of these ecumenical councils of all you.

578
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 2: Need is a pope right where it kind of suggests

579
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:33,880
like there's.

580
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,679
Speaker 13: A contradiction, right, Is that fair that the economical consoles

581
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,239
in some sense falsify the concept of the papacy.

582
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,760
Speaker 4: The way that Vatican One frames the papacy makes the

583
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,320
first thousand years of Christianity seem absurd, a lot of

584
00:38:49,639 --> 00:38:52,719
trouble over nothing, when literally, if they believed in the

585
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,599
Vatican One mindset of the papacy in the first thousand years,

586
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,679
then literally everyone could have just written to the pope

587
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,440
to have the issue settled. Fact Roman Catholic apologists, for example,

588
00:39:02,519 --> 00:39:05,079
often will appeal to the letters of Clement as proof

589
00:39:05,599 --> 00:39:10,159
that Clement, very many miles away from the problems in Corinth,

590
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,440
was quote settling the issues in Corinth. And my point

591
00:39:14,519 --> 00:39:16,440
is that, Okay, so if that's the case, we're supposed

592
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,400
to read Clement's epistle on Vatican One way, then really

593
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,199
we wouldn't need any of these ecumenical councils all called

594
00:39:22,199 --> 00:39:27,119
by emperors. Any dispute that, let's say the emperor is

595
00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:31,320
aware of. You know, this is a empire wide dispute.

596
00:39:31,679 --> 00:39:35,800
The emperor simply could have said, let's ask uh, Rome

597
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,840
case closed. Now, remember, you guys will take out of

598
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:44,440
context the phrase Rome has spoken cases closed. If that's

599
00:39:44,519 --> 00:39:48,000
the Vatican One mindset, again, why have all this arguing

600
00:39:48,039 --> 00:39:50,199
and disputing and debating and all these councils, why even

601
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,400
call these councils literally just letters of a request could

602
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:55,719
have been written to Rome. Yeah, I've made that.

603
00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 13: Argument, got it, Okay, So I guess it's two questions, right,

604
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,599
because I'm wondering if what you think about these lines

605
00:40:03,639 --> 00:40:04,039
of thoughts?

606
00:40:04,079 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 2: So right, So why have councils.

607
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,639
Speaker 13: If you just have the pope maybe one to one

608
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,199
correspondence and the Pope just tells everyone here's how it's

609
00:40:12,199 --> 00:40:12,480
going to be.

610
00:40:12,639 --> 00:40:16,079
Speaker 2: Right, do you do you find in any merit in this?

611
00:40:16,199 --> 00:40:18,280
Speaker 13: We're like, well, what like if we make a council here,

612
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,559
even if let's say hypothetically, if the.

613
00:40:20,559 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 2: Pope somehow had some quart of some sort of authority, it.

614
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 13: Gives opportunity for people to ask questions, understand how the

615
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,199
teaching reconciles, so they can have the open debate. And

616
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,760
it also forces all the leaders of the church to

617
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,320
show themselves in written statement, whether.

618
00:40:36,119 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 2: They're in a quart or not.

619
00:40:37,159 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 13: So in some sense, you force the council and you

620
00:40:39,039 --> 00:40:41,400
can reveal who's the heretic and who's the orthodox.

621
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 4: Like do you think, well, I mean again, none of you,

622
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:51,599
none of that. But in the post first millennium Western mindset, again,

623
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:55,400
none of that's necessary because after the eleventh century, the

624
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,679
pope confirms every bishop in the world. The Pope decides

625
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,599
throughout the world old who's worthy of excommunication and who isn't. Ultimately,

626
00:41:03,079 --> 00:41:06,119
so the very powers that are claimed and accorded to

627
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,199
the pope in the second millennium, and particularly a Vatican

628
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,639
One like again, ultimately this is this is raising the

629
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:17,199
question of was the Vatican One stuff in the mind

630
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,639
of the church in the first thousand years or not?

631
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, right to your point. And I suppose the

632
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:25,000
difficult thing.

633
00:41:25,039 --> 00:41:27,119
Speaker 13: I mean, we can't even read each other's minds and

634
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:28,880
here we are in the present, but to try to

635
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:29,960
read the minds.

636
00:41:29,679 --> 00:41:32,039
Speaker 2: Of historical figures, of course there's going to be something.

637
00:41:32,079 --> 00:41:35,159
Speaker 4: Well, remember how difficult it is in the ancient world

638
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,719
to bring all these bishops throughout the empire to one

639
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,599
central city. I mean, that's a huge feat. It requires

640
00:41:41,639 --> 00:41:44,519
a long time, it requires a lot of money. When

641
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,480
all we needed was just like a one letter sent

642
00:41:47,559 --> 00:41:50,280
to the Bishop of Rome and his you know, sealable approval.

643
00:41:50,519 --> 00:41:52,039
And by the way, couldn't the Bishop of Rome to

644
00:41:52,199 --> 00:41:54,559
tell us who's a heretic and who's not? By the way,

645
00:41:54,559 --> 00:41:56,320
I mean, that's the Vatican One powers that he has.

646
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:57,599
Why can't why can't he do that?

647
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,639
Speaker 13: Well, So that's interesting, and this is me thinking for

648
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:02,599
the first time, I haven't thought about what you're saying

649
00:42:02,639 --> 00:42:06,079
here before. But I suppose, like okay, for example, like

650
00:42:06,159 --> 00:42:09,679
capital punishment at least in the Catholic position has has migrated, right,

651
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:11,960
So why did the church flip flop? You could say, well,

652
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:17,320
before there was no adequate means to deal with the psychopaths,

653
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,519
you know, the dangerous people there were, there were no prisons,

654
00:42:19,559 --> 00:42:20,840
so you just had to kill them. But now that

655
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,679
we have prisons, that's changed. Or like war, the concept

656
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,159
of a just war, Well, now we have nuclear bombs.

657
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 4: Well on, there were prisons in the ancient world. The

658
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,880
mosaic law mentions imprisoning somebody.

659
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,079
Speaker 2: What do you mean, Uh, well, I.

660
00:42:34,119 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 13: Mean yeah, without getting too much into that point, I

661
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,519
mean the concept I think that you couldn't really have

662
00:42:39,599 --> 00:42:41,719
a stable society with like mass you know.

663
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:43,639
Speaker 2: Prisons at scale, like you just have to kind of

664
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:45,440
to It's.

665
00:42:45,639 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 13: Because you're balancing the good of letting the person have

666
00:42:49,039 --> 00:42:52,119
an opportunity for redemption versus protecting society.

667
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:52,559
Speaker 2: From the evil doer.

668
00:42:53,039 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 13: And you could argue that before you couldn't really contain

669
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,199
the evil doers, so it's better to just you know,

670
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:57,679
kill them.

671
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,760
Speaker 4: Well, the problem with that, I understand that this is

672
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,159
an attempt at explaining why this position might evolve. But

673
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,920
the problem is that in traditional Catholic moral theology, and

674
00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:08,840
I think even I'm going from memory here, but even

675
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,360
in the Council the Catechism of Trent, it argues that

676
00:43:12,639 --> 00:43:17,400
the basis for the death penalty is natural justice. So

677
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,320
does I thought things in Rome Mecalay theology natural law?

678
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:22,199
How's that going to change?

679
00:43:24,039 --> 00:43:24,199
Speaker 7: Right?

680
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 2: Well, fair enough?

681
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 13: And yeah, I guess I don't mean to get too

682
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,400
much united into that. I'd have to circle back on

683
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,719
that point, but I guess if there is a certain

684
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:37,000
element of the fundamental nature of the times is somehow changed.

685
00:43:37,039 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 2: So you make an interesting point that, I mean.

686
00:43:39,679 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 13: Today you can communicate around the world in a millisecond.

687
00:43:43,039 --> 00:43:45,559
I mean, we're doing it right now, and so having

688
00:43:45,599 --> 00:43:48,639
a centralized structure and dissemination of information whatever, I mean,

689
00:43:48,679 --> 00:43:50,840
that's that's not much of a problem. But back then,

690
00:43:51,039 --> 00:43:54,079
like you couldn't really travel. I mean, it's really problematic.

691
00:43:54,159 --> 00:43:56,199
Speaker 4: So you're saying, but then that means you're admitting that

692
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,920
the Clement argument is not an argument for Aboutican one.

693
00:44:00,639 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 13: Oh I'm not even aware, Like I'm not even making

694
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:05,679
a claim. Y, I'm just literally explored.

695
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 2: I'm trying to like grapple with the consequence.

696
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,199
Speaker 4: I understand. But if that's the case, then the Clement

697
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,679
example is no longer an example for Vatican one papacy.

698
00:44:16,559 --> 00:44:20,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I see what you're saying. But coolly, I

699
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:22,320
gotta have to look more into the stuff that you

700
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:22,840
brought up.

701
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,199
Speaker 4: But you know it's also I mean, are you are

702
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,679
you aware on this topic? Are you aware of the

703
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,679
Chidy document and the Alexandria document.

704
00:44:33,199 --> 00:44:33,599
Speaker 2: I am not.

705
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:36,639
Speaker 4: So these are on the Vatican website. You can go

706
00:44:36,679 --> 00:44:40,360
to Christianity dot christian Unity dot v A H and

707
00:44:40,599 --> 00:44:42,519
you can look up the Chi eighty document and the

708
00:44:42,599 --> 00:44:47,079
Alexandria document. Chady document says this is approved by the Vatican,

709
00:44:47,159 --> 00:44:51,559
approved by Francis. It says, appeals regarding disciplinary matters in

710
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,239
the first some of the first millennium we're also made

711
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,320
to Constantinople and other SE's. So appeals are not just

712
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,079
made to Rome, always treated in a synodal way. So

713
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,000
in fact, this is admitting that anytime, even when there

714
00:45:05,079 --> 00:45:08,000
was an appeal based on the Canons of Artica, this

715
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,519
was not a Rome speaks in cases close matter. It's

716
00:45:10,559 --> 00:45:14,119
a let's retry. Let's have a retrial. Appeals to the

717
00:45:14,199 --> 00:45:16,920
Bishop of Rome from the East expressed the communion of

718
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:21,000
the church, but the Bishop of Rome did not exercise

719
00:45:21,119 --> 00:45:24,480
canonical authority over the churches of the East. This is

720
00:45:24,559 --> 00:45:27,920
in direct contradiction to what Vatican One says about the

721
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,000
universal jurisdiction of the pope at all times. So I

722
00:45:31,039 --> 00:45:32,920
would just say that your own Vatican, and not trying

723
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:34,239
to put you on the spot or be rude to you,

724
00:45:34,559 --> 00:45:37,119
but your own Vatican, in its recent documents, has admitted

725
00:45:37,159 --> 00:45:41,039
that this is something obviously that evolved. This whole idea

726
00:45:41,079 --> 00:45:43,719
of the papacy evolved over time, and to me that's

727
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:48,039
another surrendering of Vatican One, because Vatican one claims, as

728
00:45:48,119 --> 00:45:50,880
well as legal of the Thirteen that the powers and

729
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,000
prerogatives of the Bishop of Rome were always universally there

730
00:45:55,119 --> 00:45:56,679
and known from the very first days.

731
00:45:58,159 --> 00:46:02,039
Speaker 13: So okay, this is me not familiar with the specifics

732
00:46:02,039 --> 00:46:03,679
of what we pointed to, but just even what I

733
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:07,400
know now, would the Catholic response be that, sure, like

734
00:46:07,679 --> 00:46:10,880
the Pope on different issues will seek that you know,

735
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:15,639
appeal process that'll be more collaborative. But then there's specific

736
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:17,800
times where the quote unquote. You know, the keys of

737
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,719
infallibility are wielded, and that's like so rare, and I

738
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,480
understand that might be a little unfalsifiable, like when was

739
00:46:23,519 --> 00:46:24,119
it infallible?

740
00:46:24,159 --> 00:46:24,760
Speaker 2: When was it not?

741
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,519
Speaker 13: But you know, is it fair to say that the

742
00:46:27,599 --> 00:46:30,880
pope might might allow for certain issues to be more

743
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,239
collaborative and worked out as opposed to other issues where

744
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:35,159
the keys will be swung.

745
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 4: Let's say, Okay, maybe that's the case within Roman Catholicism,

746
00:46:38,519 --> 00:46:40,159
that you can make that argument. But I'm making a

747
00:46:40,199 --> 00:46:44,360
different argument, which is that there's a specific dogmatic contradiction

748
00:46:45,199 --> 00:46:49,320
that Vatican One says everybody in all times, in all

749
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,119
places new from the earliest days that the Roman Sea

750
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:58,679
had universal jurisdiction, indefectibility and infallibility. That's contrary too, this

751
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:03,159
claim that saidmitted here that in the first millennium the

752
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,480
Church of Rome did not have universal jurisdiction. Both of

753
00:47:06,519 --> 00:47:08,000
these things can't be true at the same time. That's

754
00:47:08,039 --> 00:47:10,639
the area, got it?

755
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,199
Speaker 2: Got it? Okay? Right?

756
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,280
Speaker 13: Well, I gotta yeah, I'll look into this. I do

757
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:18,119
have to dive into the history. I will say that's

758
00:47:18,119 --> 00:47:20,679
been on my to do list. But I guess if

759
00:47:20,679 --> 00:47:22,519
I could ask one more question, because this is more

760
00:47:22,519 --> 00:47:27,239
of just like a psychological of you know, Barrier Stumbach block.

761
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:33,039
But how would you succinctly capture the Orthodox view on sexuality?

762
00:47:33,079 --> 00:47:35,400
Because let's say, you know, the Catholic Church has the

763
00:47:35,559 --> 00:47:39,039
Theology of the Body, some pretty beautiful stuff on you know,

764
00:47:39,119 --> 00:47:41,559
the nature of the sexuality, and it seems to me,

765
00:47:41,639 --> 00:47:44,719
even on an issue of like contraception, I just don't

766
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:46,599
really understand what the Orthodox position is.

767
00:47:47,119 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 2: I don't know, it just seemed it just doesn't seem

768
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,280
as tight doctrinely when it comes to you know, matters

769
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,719
of sex. Am I like, am I missing something? Like?

770
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:56,880
How would you capture it?

771
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 4: So yeah, I would just say go to UBI Petris's

772
00:47:59,039 --> 00:48:01,800
channel and watch the Inner View with doctor David Bradshaw

773
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:05,239
on sex, contraception, NFP Humana vite in Natural Law, and

774
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,000
then UBI has a separate documentary that he made on

775
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,840
marriage and divorce in the Orthodox view. But great questions,

776
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:17,800
Appreciate that, great conversation. Really enjoyed that. Uh it's it's

777
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:22,079
really good when we have a civil Roman Catholic who

778
00:48:22,079 --> 00:48:25,000
doesn't just immediately scream and lose his mind. So thank

779
00:48:25,039 --> 00:48:38,239
you for that. Grammy Winner. What's up man? What's up?

780
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:38,519
Speaker 15: Hell?

781
00:48:39,039 --> 00:48:40,000
Speaker 8: Hi yo?

782
00:48:41,199 --> 00:48:42,199
Speaker 16: So I have a question.

783
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 2: I was recently reading the Books of X and the Church.

784
00:48:48,079 --> 00:48:51,360
Your what I was reading the Book of X.

785
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,159
Speaker 17: And the Church describing it is so different from the

786
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:01,039
althod of Church. I mean it looks simpler, most simple issue.

787
00:49:01,079 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 4: Want I think, hold on, I think you're running on

788
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:06,800
a lot of assumptions because it says there were many

789
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:10,639
lights that were there when they gather. That's the candles.

790
00:49:11,519 --> 00:49:14,280
It talks about an altar in Hebrews thirteen, so Paul

791
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,519
talks about the Church and the Book of Acts having

792
00:49:16,559 --> 00:49:21,360
an altar. So here's an altar, here's candles, there's robes,

793
00:49:21,519 --> 00:49:24,239
there's relics. They take relics from Paul's body and drive

794
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,239
out spirits. I mean, these are all things that we

795
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,480
find in the Orthodox Church. So how where are you

796
00:49:28,559 --> 00:49:30,480
getting this idea? It's not the same.

797
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 17: Well, when you read the book, I mean the description

798
00:49:35,039 --> 00:49:38,159
of the church is like, I mean, it's kind of

799
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:39,800
different in a way.

800
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:42,639
Speaker 4: I mean, if you read Paul's epistles, it's not different.

801
00:49:42,679 --> 00:49:45,079
Because Paul says that the apostolic succession that he gave

802
00:49:45,119 --> 00:49:47,960
to Timothy is based on the principles that you see

803
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:50,719
in numbers eleven. So numbers eleven. Moses lays his hands

804
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:52,760
and passes on the Holy Spirit. Paul says Timothy, I

805
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:54,719
light hands on you, passes the Holy Spirit too, men

806
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,360
after you. That's absolute succession. So that's also in the

807
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,719
Book of Acts. You can't take acts in isolation. There's

808
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:00,760
all the other passages.

809
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:03,639
Speaker 2: But you talk about the relics of Paul.

810
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 4: Ax talks about the relics of Paul.

811
00:50:07,559 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 2: Does it really? Because, I mean, he's still alive.

812
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 17: So I don't know why we're talking about it in

813
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,320
the book that you know, was written when it was

814
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:16,880
still I'm living in this world.

815
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,800
Speaker 4: I mean, a relic a holy man can heal people

816
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:21,400
when he's alive. He doesn't have to be dead. What

817
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:22,119
are you talking about?

818
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,639
Speaker 2: Oh well, well, my my bad.

819
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 17: But when we talk about the saints, I mean, at

820
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,639
the time of Paul and all the orders, I mean,

821
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:39,920
there were the saints. So why doesn't anyone actually pray

822
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:43,400
saints in this You know, in the early Scriptures they do.

823
00:50:43,679 --> 00:50:47,159
Speaker 4: The Book of Revelation, Paul John seasoned Heaven in chapters

824
00:50:47,199 --> 00:50:51,320
five through eight, and he talks to and presents the

825
00:50:51,559 --> 00:50:54,360
martyrs in heaven interceding for the Church on earth.

826
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 17: I mean, this is not like your interpresation of what

827
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,920
the one should expect, what interpress interpretation?

828
00:51:02,119 --> 00:51:04,840
Speaker 4: Sorry, everybody has an interpretation, so that is that's a

829
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:05,679
meaningless statement.

830
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:10,760
Speaker 2: Mh. Well it's not convincing. I mean, I want to.

831
00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:13,599
Speaker 4: Tell you that's a fallacy. So the fact that it's

832
00:51:13,639 --> 00:51:17,079
not convincing doesn't mean it's not true. Yeah, I know, Well,

833
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:20,440
but I mean, are there are there are the saints

834
00:51:20,519 --> 00:51:22,360
under the altar offering the prayers of the of the

835
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:23,199
Church on earth or not?

836
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I wouldn't be able to.

837
00:51:26,199 --> 00:51:29,039
Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean it's you don't believe me.

838
00:51:29,159 --> 00:51:31,320
I just that's what That's what John says the Book

839
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:32,360
of Revelation. You're not familiar with that.

840
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 2: Well, he talks about the prayers, but it doesn't say

841
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:37,280
yes it does.

842
00:51:39,079 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 17: Because you're you're using this to fit a narrative, I think,

843
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:45,840
and that's actually wrong because.

844
00:51:45,679 --> 00:51:48,039
Speaker 4: Okay, what does it actually say? Since you I mean

845
00:51:48,119 --> 00:51:49,920
to say that I'm wrong. Pre suppose that you know

846
00:51:50,039 --> 00:51:51,559
what the text says, So you tell me what the

847
00:51:51,679 --> 00:51:52,480
text actually says.

848
00:51:53,199 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 2: If I remember he.

849
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 17: Talks about perfume and prayer of saints like being you know,

850
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:00,159
spilled some way.

851
00:52:00,199 --> 00:52:02,519
Speaker 4: I don't know, mention that perfume. What are you talking about?

852
00:52:04,119 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 2: That's what I read. It's sometimes but still I think

853
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:13,280
the way you.

854
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,119
Speaker 4: Present well, you're saying that, but you're not telling me why.

855
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,840
You're just saying that. You're saying, oh, that's your interpretation. Well,

856
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:25,199
everybody has their interpretations. Everyone has an agenda. You think

857
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:26,880
that the people are neutral on this's what are you

858
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:27,400
talking about?

859
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:31,119
Speaker 17: Well, I mean it should be should do agenda? Should

860
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,119
you know, feed the narrative of a god? And that's

861
00:52:33,159 --> 00:52:33,639
your own.

862
00:52:36,559 --> 00:52:38,760
Speaker 4: And let me guess you have the agenda you have.

863
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:40,920
You have the agenda of God. You're the God, you're

864
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:41,480
the prophet.

865
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 2: I just I'm kind of figuring it out, you know,

866
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:45,760
I'm sorry.

867
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,320
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, the text says that they're underneath the altar

868
00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,079
in heaven offering the prayers of the saints on earth.

869
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,400
That's what the text says. So you tell me, as

870
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:55,840
a Protestant, whether I'm making up a narrative.

871
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the prayers of the saint doesn't mean to

872
00:52:59,280 --> 00:52:59,920
be out prayer.

873
00:53:00,639 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 4: It's the saints on earth. It says our prayers are

874
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:07,039
offered by the saints in heaven. Yes, it does say that.

875
00:53:07,119 --> 00:53:07,880
What are you talking about?

876
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:10,760
Speaker 2: No, he just talks about the prayer off the saints,

877
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:12,119
not the prayers.

878
00:53:12,079 --> 00:53:15,280
Speaker 4: They pray for the saints on earth for vengeance for them.

879
00:53:17,519 --> 00:53:21,719
Yes it does, they say, God, they intercede for the

880
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,679
saints on earth for God to avenge their brothers on earth.

881
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:29,159
Speaker 2: It says that, well, can you give me the text

882
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:30,960
or rat it afta please?

883
00:53:34,119 --> 00:53:45,840
Speaker 4: Yep, let me pull it up. Thank you, they cried

884
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,639
out with a loud voice. O Sovereign Lord, how long

885
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:51,079
until you judge and avenge our blood on those who

886
00:53:51,199 --> 00:53:52,119
dwell on the earth.

887
00:53:56,639 --> 00:54:02,039
Speaker 17: Okay, which message is this? I'm just coming before after

888
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:04,480
the part about the bread off the saying.

889
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 4: It's Revelation six nine through eleven.

890
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:10,760
Speaker 2: I see, well, I have a look at it, because

891
00:54:11,559 --> 00:54:12,960
it's just really the whole thing.

892
00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:15,360
Speaker 17: Like it also looks church, because you can't really differentiate

893
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:16,679
yourself from because of the Church.

894
00:54:16,679 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 4: And so now so now you've tapped down so totally

895
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,599
changed the topic to differentiate from the Catholic Church. What

896
00:54:21,639 --> 00:54:22,280
does that have to do with this?

897
00:54:23,079 --> 00:54:23,760
Speaker 2: So what is that?

898
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 4: I mean, you're changing the subject because.

899
00:54:26,159 --> 00:54:30,159
Speaker 2: I'm trying to figure out what is the primitive Church?

900
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:36,079
Speaker 4: Okay, and any any evidence that contradicts your Protestant idea

901
00:54:36,159 --> 00:54:38,079
of the early Church you're throwing out and saying, it's

902
00:54:38,079 --> 00:54:40,880
my interpretation. Do you have do you have an maybe

903
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:42,159
you have? Do you have a Protestant agenda?

904
00:54:43,039 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 2: No at all. I'm really upen to you understand. Just wants,

905
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:47,760
you know, to figure it out, that's all.

906
00:54:49,559 --> 00:54:54,079
Speaker 4: But part of understanding means being willing to give up

907
00:54:54,119 --> 00:54:56,159
our presuppositions, and the fact that you think you don't

908
00:54:56,159 --> 00:54:58,079
have any presubpositions is the root of the problem here.

909
00:54:58,159 --> 00:54:58,760
Everyone does.

910
00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:02,880
Speaker 17: I am actually, I mean, I'm not trying to force

911
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:04,239
any idea upon you.

912
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:06,679
Speaker 4: I'm just trying to well, I mean when I when

913
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:08,960
I give you the text, you suddenly say you can't

914
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,360
differentiate yourself from the Catholic Church. What does that have

915
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:11,800
to do with this?

916
00:55:13,119 --> 00:55:14,960
Speaker 2: Because they can the same things. I want to know

917
00:55:15,159 --> 00:55:18,519
they can the same thing as you to be the

918
00:55:18,599 --> 00:55:19,960
primitive Church, because.

919
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:21,639
Speaker 4: That's a fallacy. The fact that they claim the same

920
00:55:21,679 --> 00:55:23,360
thing as us has nothing to do with which one's

921
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:24,800
true or false? Do you don't do you know what

922
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:25,639
fallacies are?

923
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 2: Yeah? I know, but you too claim this hame thing.

924
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:29,840
So how I was, No, we.

925
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 4: Don't what are you talking about? I mean, they claimed

926
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:36,440
that the Roman bishop was the universal, infallible, in defectible

927
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:37,639
head from the first days of the church.

928
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 15: We don't.

929
00:55:38,039 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 4: We don't claim that. I literally, I literally just argued

930
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:44,639
for thirty minutes of the guy before you text showing

931
00:55:44,679 --> 00:55:45,400
that that's not the case.

932
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,039
Speaker 2: Okay, By the way, can I give a couple more sure?

933
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,719
Thank you? Uh Job.

934
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 18: Says, if there shall be an angel speaking for him,

935
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:04,480
he shall mercy on him, and she shall say deliver him.

936
00:56:04,679 --> 00:56:08,400
They may not go down to corruption. So obviously we

937
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:13,000
can petition angels. In the book of Tobit, when thou

938
00:56:13,119 --> 00:56:17,119
didst prayed with tears, I archangel Raphael.

939
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 2: Offered the prayer to the Lord. So there's prayers to angels.

940
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:24,159
Speaker 18: Saint John, another angel came and stood before the altar,

941
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:26,159
having a golden censer, and there was given to him

942
00:56:26,199 --> 00:56:28,920
much incense that he should offer of the prayers of

943
00:56:29,039 --> 00:56:32,440
all the saints upon the golden altar, which is before

944
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:33,760
the throne of guard God.

945
00:56:34,519 --> 00:56:37,039
Speaker 2: So he clearly see that.

946
00:56:38,599 --> 00:56:41,599
Speaker 18: Prayers and petitions can be made to the angels. And

947
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,599
that's all the scripture, right there and then offer it

948
00:56:44,679 --> 00:56:46,800
up to God. But if you want to know that

949
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,840
the early primitive Church, we have Saint Cyprian of Carthage,

950
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,360
Saint Hilary of Boteers sat from the Syrian.

951
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:55,199
Speaker 2: These are all the third fourth.

952
00:56:55,079 --> 00:56:59,320
Speaker 18: Centuries, Saint Anthonatius the Great, fourth century, Saint Basil the Gray.

953
00:57:00,559 --> 00:57:02,960
It's in the liturgy of Saint Basil, one of the

954
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:08,000
earliest liturgies. Saint Cyril, Jerusalem, Saint Gregory the Theologian, all

955
00:57:08,199 --> 00:57:11,360
say the early Church, and it commands you to pray

956
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:16,159
to saints. So you don't see this, don't pray to

957
00:57:16,239 --> 00:57:19,159
saints until what fifteen hundred years later. So if you're

958
00:57:19,199 --> 00:57:21,639
looking for the primitive Church, it's right there, and they

959
00:57:21,679 --> 00:57:27,800
pray the saints, both in scripture and all the earliest fathers.

960
00:57:30,199 --> 00:57:32,239
Speaker 4: I'm going to read you Revelation eight. When he opened

961
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:34,119
the seventh Seal, there was silence in heaven. I saw

962
00:57:34,199 --> 00:57:36,320
the angels who said before God, and to them were

963
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,760
given seven trumpet's. Another angel. How any golden censer came

964
00:57:39,079 --> 00:57:41,039
stood of the altar. He was given incense that he

965
00:57:41,079 --> 00:57:45,079
should offer it with the prayers of the saints upon

966
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,360
the golden altar, which was before the throne. So this

967
00:57:48,559 --> 00:57:52,039
is an angel in the heavenly liturgy, offering the prayers

968
00:57:52,079 --> 00:57:53,039
of the saints before God.

969
00:57:58,119 --> 00:58:00,239
Speaker 2: Okay, I see what I just see. You know better

970
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:05,719
than me. That's Ben the noble. And I'm really trying

971
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:07,159
to because I felt like.

972
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:15,119
Speaker 17: We can't really know what happened after the difficult death death.

973
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,119
Speaker 4: So well, how do you know that we have We

974
00:58:18,239 --> 00:58:21,440
have a multitudes of writings of the post Apostolic fathers

975
00:58:22,039 --> 00:58:28,960
ignacious uh Clement, uh Cyprian. I mean you're an as polycarp.

976
00:58:29,039 --> 00:58:30,000
What do you mean we can't know?

977
00:58:30,719 --> 00:58:33,599
Speaker 2: I mean, yes, we have done. But like I said,

978
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:34,719
they have an agenda.

979
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 4: Well that's your again, that's your presupposition. You're you're saying

980
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:40,920
to have an agenda when it disagrees with your interpretation.

981
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:43,840
Speaker 2: And why not just say the apostles have an agenda?

982
00:58:44,119 --> 00:58:46,320
So anything, I don't like that the apostles wrote it's

983
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:52,400
an agenda, because what if they will close up to

984
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:53,760
Jesus and they lived with him.

985
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 18: So of course, Alsoiousious was writing under the authority of apostles,

986
00:59:00,079 --> 00:59:02,079
in which they would have said you can't write that.

987
00:59:03,039 --> 00:59:06,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, on what basis do you cut off Ignatius.

988
00:59:08,039 --> 00:59:11,079
Speaker 2: Because he was not about of the droop.

989
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:12,519
Speaker 15: I mean what.

990
00:59:14,199 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 17: He was not about off the drowp I'm talking about

991
00:59:17,039 --> 00:59:18,000
those part of the.

992
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 2: Jube, the group of the above Jesus.

993
00:59:22,039 --> 00:59:25,679
Speaker 4: Okay, what well, Paul says to Timothy that lay hands

994
00:59:25,719 --> 00:59:28,119
on men after you because the Holy Spirit is given.

995
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,119
So did the Holy Spirit die when Paul told Timbery

996
00:59:31,119 --> 00:59:32,159
to start laying hands on men?

997
00:59:33,119 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 17: Yeah, but actually Poe met with the others and your

998
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:39,719
saints I don't know who they all didn't.

999
00:59:40,079 --> 00:59:42,719
Speaker 4: Meant, what are you talking about? You have no idea.

1000
00:59:44,199 --> 00:59:46,440
Speaker 2: He was taught by Christ from the Apostles? What are you?

1001
00:59:47,239 --> 00:59:48,920
He's the first second century scene.

1002
00:59:51,239 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 18: A lot of these were the ones that we're mentioning

1003
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:55,519
Polycarp Barnabys.

1004
00:59:56,800 --> 01:00:00,039
Speaker 2: They're always they were all writing under the authority.

1005
00:59:59,679 --> 01:00:01,679
Speaker 4: Of the Are you like a Seventh day Adventist or

1006
01:00:01,719 --> 01:00:04,480
some kind of like assumption here that like after the Apostle,

1007
01:00:04,519 --> 01:00:07,159
when when the Apostles died, then suddenly there's this apostas

1008
01:00:07,199 --> 01:00:09,800
here like a job's witness. What you're you're coming from?

1009
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:10,880
Something like that? I can tell.

1010
01:00:11,159 --> 01:00:13,199
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to use critical thinking because.

1011
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:15,639
Speaker 4: What's your background? Though, because it's not just critical thinking.

1012
01:00:15,719 --> 01:00:18,159
It's some indoctrination from some dumb cult. What is it

1013
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:23,440
any Really, you're repeating what a lot of cults say.

1014
01:00:23,519 --> 01:00:28,199
Where did you get this information? Yes, you are, Come on,

1015
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:32,119
be honest. No, I'm not okay, Well you got this

1016
01:00:32,239 --> 01:00:34,079
information from somewhere. You didn't just sit down and read

1017
01:00:34,079 --> 01:00:38,519
the Bible and suddenly decide that Ignacious was an apostle. No,

1018
01:00:38,719 --> 01:00:38,960
I'm not.

1019
01:00:39,079 --> 01:00:39,719
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that.

1020
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:42,599
Speaker 17: I'm saying that you did say that I can't retely

1021
01:00:42,679 --> 01:00:44,880
trust them because they have an agenda.

1022
01:00:45,119 --> 01:00:47,920
Speaker 4: I mean, it's again, how do you know that? Where

1023
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:49,840
did you come to the conclusion that they have an agenda?

1024
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:50,920
Where did you get this information?

1025
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 17: Because they tend to go sam rude as Cazaric churge

1026
01:00:57,960 --> 01:00:58,320
and I don't know.

1027
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 4: I mean maybe the Orthodox the Catholic are correct. How

1028
01:01:01,400 --> 01:01:02,760
do you know How do you know they're not correct?

1029
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,559
Speaker 2: I mean they maybe.

1030
01:01:07,599 --> 01:01:09,119
Speaker 4: Oh, maybe you're talking to a demon. How do you

1031
01:01:09,159 --> 01:01:09,880
know it's holy spirit?

1032
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:17,039
Speaker 2: Well that's I'm sure, okay, But anyways.

1033
01:01:18,239 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 4: DU's got Beyonce on his profile. This guy's troll. He's

1034
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:28,840
probably trolling Ken Chin. What's up? Prema Scripture will call

1035
01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:33,920
in dude, what are you talking about? Defining cold? Call

1036
01:01:34,039 --> 01:01:39,760
in and I will define call for you. Ruh. We

1037
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:41,920
should have got it. Sounds like he's just repeating seven

1038
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:45,599
day having and stuff. What's up, man, I'm mute?

1039
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 2: Oh Hellotle, Gary? Oh Hey, how you doing? Jack?

1040
01:01:53,199 --> 01:01:54,119
Speaker 4: Good? What what's up?

1041
01:01:54,679 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 2: Okay? Awesome? Just making sure I was all set up

1042
01:01:56,920 --> 01:01:57,559
and good. Yeah.

1043
01:01:57,599 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 19: So I said a question about the final authority any

1044
01:02:00,599 --> 01:02:02,559
Orthodoxy would you be able to address up for me?

1045
01:02:02,719 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 4: Sure?

1046
01:02:05,039 --> 01:02:06,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I generally want to know what it is.

1047
01:02:07,079 --> 01:02:09,960
Is it the equamentum, councils, is it the bishops?

1048
01:02:10,679 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 15: Yes?

1049
01:02:11,039 --> 01:02:11,599
Speaker 2: What is it?

1050
01:02:11,679 --> 01:02:13,400
Speaker 4: And what is your position?

1051
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 2: Yeah? You Reform Calvinists, okay.

1052
01:02:18,119 --> 01:02:21,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, we would agree that the final authority at the

1053
01:02:21,119 --> 01:02:23,119
end of the day is the Holy Spirit. So every

1054
01:02:23,199 --> 01:02:27,039
Roman Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant agrees that for the individual,

1055
01:02:27,639 --> 01:02:30,079
the final authority is going to be the Holy Spirit

1056
01:02:30,199 --> 01:02:33,199
revealing what's true or false. But where we disagree with

1057
01:02:33,679 --> 01:02:36,360
the reform person and with the Roman Catholic is the

1058
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:38,840
means that the Holy Spirit uses. So we do not

1059
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:42,239
believe that it is primarily just you and the scriptures,

1060
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:44,280
and we do not believe that it is primarily just

1061
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:47,880
the Holy Spirit so called and the Pope. We would

1062
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:51,079
say that there's a combination of things working together and

1063
01:02:51,119 --> 01:02:54,159
there's not one magisterial thing that we would point to.

1064
01:02:54,679 --> 01:02:57,239
But where we would bit different with you more particularly,

1065
01:02:57,360 --> 01:03:01,000
is that Jesus did establish a normative authority for the church,

1066
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:04,320
and your group does not believe in any normative, existing

1067
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:06,679
historical authority. So that refutes your whole position.

1068
01:03:07,559 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 19: Well, sure, so let's just go to you said the

1069
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:12,239
Holy spirits the ultimate authority. So you're saying that everything

1070
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:14,960
that's that would be given a scripture would essentially the

1071
01:03:15,039 --> 01:03:17,239
Holy Spirit would guide us and give us a correct

1072
01:03:17,239 --> 01:03:18,840
interpretation that the correct path.

1073
01:03:18,679 --> 01:03:21,639
Speaker 4: To go down to, not just the scripture, not just

1074
01:03:21,679 --> 01:03:23,280
the scripture, also the oral tradition.

1075
01:03:24,559 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 2: And where's the ord tradition found.

1076
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:29,320
Speaker 4: It's found in the oral teaching, an interpretation hermenoneudicts of

1077
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:31,440
the traditional apostles, and it's found in places like the

1078
01:03:31,519 --> 01:03:32,480
liturgy for example.

1079
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:35,800
Speaker 2: So like like, what what is the greatest thing I

1080
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:37,760
guess in the or tradition that you're you would refer

1081
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:38,039
to the.

1082
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:42,920
Speaker 19: Liturgy, so are you? But it doesn't everything that's in

1083
01:03:43,039 --> 01:03:46,719
the liturgy. Echo would say the Bible. No, like what

1084
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:49,000
the what would be absent though, if you have.

1085
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:51,320
Speaker 4: Anything the liturgical service itself.

1086
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:54,360
Speaker 2: M hm. So without that's that.

1087
01:03:54,519 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 19: That sort of or tradition you would say, that's missing

1088
01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:58,199
something critical in worship.

1089
01:03:58,679 --> 01:04:01,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, we're in the New Testament. Did the apostles give

1090
01:04:01,159 --> 01:04:02,559
you a liturgical worship service?

1091
01:04:04,039 --> 01:04:06,360
Speaker 2: Well, it sounds like it's not something that needs to.

1092
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 4: Be particularly interesting. So in Leviticus Native and Vai who

1093
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:16,519
are put to death for misappropriating the implements of worship.

1094
01:04:16,639 --> 01:04:19,000
But in the reform mindset, I thought you guys believed

1095
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:20,239
in the regular principal worship?

1096
01:04:22,159 --> 01:04:25,000
Speaker 2: What would that be or would you find that as I.

1097
01:04:25,039 --> 01:04:27,679
Speaker 4: Mean, you don't know your own traditions definition of the regulars.

1098
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 2: I don't know by that term.

1099
01:04:31,159 --> 01:04:34,239
Speaker 4: It's literally one of the one of the most famous

1100
01:04:34,480 --> 01:04:36,840
terms in the history of reform theology. You've never heard

1101
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:39,960
of the regular prince of worship? No, no, I'm asking

1102
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:42,599
you if you Cashew well, I want you to in

1103
01:04:42,679 --> 01:04:45,199
your reformed you are here to debate. You don't know

1104
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:46,519
this term from your tradition.

1105
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:48,000
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I told you.

1106
01:04:49,320 --> 01:04:51,599
Speaker 4: Okay, stop playing dumb and be honest.

1107
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 2: No, I whatever it is in that that sort of

1108
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:57,360
category of the name you named it as.

1109
01:04:57,360 --> 01:04:59,000
Speaker 4: Maybe do you think I made that up?

1110
01:05:00,119 --> 01:05:01,639
Speaker 2: No, I'm not saying I'm not saying that. No.

1111
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:03,920
Speaker 4: Okay, So how reformed are you?

1112
01:05:04,079 --> 01:05:04,119
Speaker 2: Like?

1113
01:05:04,599 --> 01:05:05,199
Speaker 4: Is this new to you?

1114
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:08,079
Speaker 2: Or have you been this six caist what I've been

1115
01:05:08,639 --> 01:05:09,800
of a six point Calvinist?

1116
01:05:11,559 --> 01:05:13,400
Speaker 4: How long have you been reformed? That's what I asked?

1117
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 2: Oh for three years? Not maybe about three or four

1118
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:16,039
of you.

1119
01:05:16,239 --> 01:05:18,719
Speaker 4: Okay, And you don't know about the regular principal worship?

1120
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:21,639
Speaker 2: No, No, I mean I wouldn't.

1121
01:05:22,159 --> 01:05:27,199
Speaker 4: Do you follow the Westminster Confession? Yes, okay, this is

1122
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:31,480
a pretty well known thing from the Westminster Confession? Do

1123
01:05:31,559 --> 01:05:33,559
you follow the original west mister? Maybe you follow some

1124
01:05:33,960 --> 01:05:35,119
edited version or something.

1125
01:05:36,039 --> 01:05:38,559
Speaker 19: Well, I mean most of the people that I would

1126
01:05:38,719 --> 01:05:40,800
prescribe to as good teachers and stuff like that, do

1127
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:44,280
I think the London Baptism Confession is what most churches

1128
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:45,800
that I would associate.

1129
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:46,320
Speaker 2: With would follow.

1130
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,639
Speaker 4: Okay, that's not the So you're a reform Baptist, not

1131
01:05:49,719 --> 01:05:52,199
a Presbyterian, So that's not the original Westminster Confession?

1132
01:05:53,599 --> 01:05:57,239
Speaker 2: Okay? Yeah, yeah, But but I mean.

1133
01:05:57,760 --> 01:05:59,559
Speaker 4: And what is the sixth point of Calvinism?

1134
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:02,960
Speaker 2: I'm never heard of this stool Upso the sovereignty of God.

1135
01:06:05,079 --> 01:06:06,719
Speaker 4: It's five points, what's the sixth?

1136
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 2: I know this is what James White would say, is

1137
01:06:09,159 --> 01:06:10,599
the extraditions to.

1138
01:06:11,639 --> 01:06:13,559
Speaker 4: So you're trolling as a reform Protestant.

1139
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:19,159
Speaker 2: No I am A I am. I just don't get

1140
01:06:19,199 --> 01:06:19,960
what you think I'd.

1141
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:24,280
Speaker 4: Controlling because you're you're you're deflecting and not being clear

1142
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:27,159
about what your position is. So you said you're reformed,

1143
01:06:27,199 --> 01:06:29,239
and then you said six point Calvinism, but you've never

1144
01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:30,559
heard the regular principal worship.

1145
01:06:30,599 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 2: Even though this is like, let's not let's not get

1146
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:35,119
let's get stuck in that. I like to talk to

1147
01:06:35,119 --> 01:06:36,159
you about final authorities.

1148
01:06:36,519 --> 01:06:39,159
Speaker 4: If you would be really well, I mean, this is

1149
01:06:39,199 --> 01:06:42,440
going to matter because like the point that I'm making

1150
01:06:42,679 --> 01:06:45,719
is that if your tradition is going, if you want

1151
01:06:45,719 --> 01:06:47,440
to be consistent with your tradition, and I'm sure you

1152
01:06:47,519 --> 01:06:50,199
don't care because in you guys' position, you can disagree

1153
01:06:50,239 --> 01:06:53,519
with the generation right before you, uh, then you would

1154
01:06:53,519 --> 01:06:55,719
think that God, if you would think that God, who

1155
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:57,800
cares so much about his worship in the Book of

1156
01:06:58,079 --> 01:06:59,920
Leviticus that he would kill people for doing it wrong,

1157
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:02,199
would have given the New Testament Church a pattern of

1158
01:07:02,239 --> 01:07:04,440
worship Yeah, I'm just.

1159
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:06,199
Speaker 2: Confused how you can take that out of context in

1160
01:07:06,239 --> 01:07:07,480
the Old Testament implying that to.

1161
01:07:07,599 --> 01:07:10,639
Speaker 4: Anything, because your entire tradition that you don't even know

1162
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:15,079
always has done that. So what was an example of

1163
01:07:15,519 --> 01:07:19,039
the regulative principle of worship in the entire Reform tradition?

1164
01:07:19,199 --> 01:07:20,360
That's the example.

1165
01:07:21,599 --> 01:07:21,880
Speaker 2: You got.

1166
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:24,679
Speaker 4: You guys killed each other. You guys killed each other

1167
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:25,880
over this. You don't even know that.

1168
01:07:27,119 --> 01:07:29,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's relevance to No, it's not.

1169
01:07:30,599 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 4: No, it's not because you're part of a tradition that

1170
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:35,760
you can at whim disregard and say I don't care.

1171
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:38,559
It doesn't matter when the argument is about whether there's

1172
01:07:38,559 --> 01:07:41,159
apostolic tradition that's liturgy or not. That's my point.

1173
01:07:41,679 --> 01:07:44,239
Speaker 19: I'm saying that the God's word that He's given us

1174
01:07:44,559 --> 01:07:46,760
is what we need to do, what we need to

1175
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:47,360
have in mind.

1176
01:07:48,119 --> 01:07:51,079
Speaker 4: Okay, why didn't God? Because God cares so much about worship,

1177
01:07:51,119 --> 01:07:53,559
and your own tradition has debated and killed each other

1178
01:07:53,679 --> 01:07:56,440
over this, why didn't he provide a liturgy in the

1179
01:07:56,440 --> 01:07:56,960
New Testament?

1180
01:07:57,679 --> 01:08:00,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, the way he worships lay down to the fundamental No,

1181
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:00,519
it's not.

1182
01:08:01,079 --> 01:08:05,159
Speaker 4: No, it's not Where is there where is the liturgy

1183
01:08:05,159 --> 01:08:05,920
in the New Testament?

1184
01:08:06,519 --> 01:08:07,960
Speaker 2: The concepts are there? What are you talking?

1185
01:08:08,079 --> 01:08:11,199
Speaker 4: The concepts are there, the liturgy itself is not there.

1186
01:08:12,079 --> 01:08:18,159
Speaker 19: So where does that come from? Where's your preset position

1187
01:08:18,239 --> 01:08:19,960
that liturgy is even coming from?

1188
01:08:20,960 --> 01:08:24,680
Speaker 4: Because God kills people over this principle, and he consistently

1189
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:26,560
kills people over this principle. Because Paul says that if

1190
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:29,199
you eat and drink unworthily, God will kill you, so

1191
01:08:29,279 --> 01:08:31,760
it would seem pretty important, and it's something that God

1192
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:33,000
didn't put in the written texts.

1193
01:08:34,199 --> 01:08:36,319
Speaker 2: So because you're saying God kills.

1194
01:08:36,119 --> 01:08:39,600
Speaker 4: People, who do you have to restate my argument? And

1195
01:08:39,720 --> 01:08:41,680
you can't hear the argument. You have to repeat everything

1196
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:42,079
else said.

1197
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:48,119
Speaker 2: I make sure I understood it right, So I just

1198
01:08:48,159 --> 01:08:48,760
confuse how that.

1199
01:08:50,359 --> 01:08:52,600
Speaker 4: It's trying. How everyone else can understand this argument, but

1200
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:56,119
you're confused over it? Why is that funny?

1201
01:08:57,079 --> 01:08:59,119
Speaker 2: I thought that was a random point to bring up,

1202
01:08:59,159 --> 01:09:01,039
But well, why do you have to.

1203
01:09:01,079 --> 01:09:03,199
Speaker 4: Keep repeating everything I say? Do you have a low

1204
01:09:03,279 --> 01:09:04,439
IQ or are you having a hard time?

1205
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:07,479
Speaker 2: I could what would that be relevant for the conversation

1206
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:08,319
of the Final Authority?

1207
01:09:08,399 --> 01:09:09,800
Speaker 4: Because I'm trying to figure out why you have to

1208
01:09:09,840 --> 01:09:10,720
repeat everything I.

1209
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:13,760
Speaker 2: Say, and make sure I understood it right to be scharitable.

1210
01:09:14,039 --> 01:09:15,800
Speaker 4: Okay, so you're slow, I got it.

1211
01:09:17,119 --> 01:09:18,800
Speaker 19: Yeah, that's the one way to put it. So anyway,

1212
01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:21,159
So you want to say that the holy spirits of

1213
01:09:21,159 --> 01:09:21,720
the final authority?

1214
01:09:21,760 --> 01:09:22,039
Speaker 2: Correct?

1215
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:23,640
Speaker 4: I already said that.

1216
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:26,399
Speaker 19: Okay, So what does it have to do with anything

1217
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:30,119
else that the Orthodox brings into in terms of it's

1218
01:09:30,159 --> 01:09:32,319
finalizing anything, any type of authority?

1219
01:09:32,359 --> 01:09:33,159
Speaker 2: So what does that do?

1220
01:09:33,359 --> 01:09:35,439
Speaker 4: So that's why I said the very beginning normative.

1221
01:09:35,119 --> 01:09:39,840
Speaker 2: Authority, meaning that it's typically the case.

1222
01:09:41,119 --> 01:09:42,640
Speaker 4: Do you know the difference between those things?

1223
01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:45,319
Speaker 2: Oh? That's why I'm asking a clarifying question.

1224
01:09:45,399 --> 01:09:47,399
Speaker 4: Oh you came to debate, and now you're playing like

1225
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:50,119
you're here to ask questions? So are you here to

1226
01:09:50,159 --> 01:09:51,319
ask questions? You're here at debate?

1227
01:09:52,439 --> 01:09:54,439
Speaker 2: That's part of the debate, is it not? Is it

1228
01:09:54,520 --> 01:09:54,920
not a question?

1229
01:09:55,880 --> 01:09:57,399
Speaker 4: It seems like if you wanted to debate, you would

1230
01:09:57,479 --> 01:09:59,399
know the positions you're debating. But so are you here

1231
01:09:59,479 --> 01:10:00,680
to learn or you hear to debate?

1232
01:10:01,760 --> 01:10:04,319
Speaker 2: I mean I would love to learn, well, debating I

1233
01:10:04,399 --> 01:10:05,079
have no problem with that.

1234
01:10:07,239 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 4: What was the question?

1235
01:10:09,359 --> 01:10:12,800
Speaker 19: So I'm asking you, based on what you previously said,

1236
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:16,439
that the Holy Spirit is a final authority. Right then,

1237
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:18,800
how does that come into play with all the other factors,

1238
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:19,920
like the oral tradition?

1239
01:10:20,479 --> 01:10:20,600
Speaker 2: Right?

1240
01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:22,760
Speaker 19: Deciphering what the oral tradition is? How would the Holy

1241
01:10:22,840 --> 01:10:25,039
Spirit deciphered the correct oral tradition.

1242
01:10:25,279 --> 01:10:27,399
Speaker 4: And all the other bishops, I mean, the same way,

1243
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,319
just the same way he deciphered it in preserving it

1244
01:10:30,399 --> 01:10:32,600
from the time of Adam until Moses wrote it down.

1245
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, how would I objectively be able to affirm that? What?

1246
01:10:37,199 --> 01:10:39,119
How would I objectively be able to confirm that?

1247
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:41,760
Speaker 4: I mean, isn't that your own position?

1248
01:10:44,319 --> 01:10:46,239
Speaker 2: So you are you saying that the Holy Spirit makes

1249
01:10:46,319 --> 01:10:48,239
me feel that this is correct? Like that's a position?

1250
01:10:48,439 --> 01:10:50,239
Speaker 4: What did I say about anything that it was making

1251
01:10:50,279 --> 01:10:52,960
you feel something? You don't believe that the Holy Spirit? Listen,

1252
01:10:53,199 --> 01:10:55,800
you don't believe the Holy Spirit guided oral tradition from

1253
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:56,680
Adam to Moses.

1254
01:10:58,399 --> 01:10:59,359
Speaker 2: No, no, I don't believe that.

1255
01:11:01,039 --> 01:11:04,119
Speaker 4: Okay, then you're not reformed anymore. So what are you

1256
01:11:04,199 --> 01:11:05,600
just changing your positions on the spot?

1257
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:08,520
Speaker 2: No, I don't think.

1258
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:11,000
Speaker 4: Okay, I'm sicky or at your laugh, your condescending laugh

1259
01:11:11,079 --> 01:11:12,760
is getting on my nerves. What how do you not

1260
01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:16,920
understand that you're not reformed?

1261
01:11:18,319 --> 01:11:19,600
Speaker 2: That has nothing to do with or traditions.

1262
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:21,920
Speaker 4: Of course, yes it does. So how do you think

1263
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:25,279
that the message came from Adam until Moses wrote it down?

1264
01:11:26,960 --> 01:11:29,439
Speaker 19: The entire point is when Moses, when God gave a

1265
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:32,039
certain point for him to write.

1266
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:33,600
Speaker 2: It down God and to be carried out.

1267
01:11:34,239 --> 01:11:38,119
Speaker 4: So you're I'm sorry, I'm asking you how did they

1268
01:11:38,199 --> 01:11:40,800
transmit it through those generations? You don't understand this question?

1269
01:11:40,920 --> 01:11:42,439
Do I need to draw it on a board for you?

1270
01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:47,279
Speaker 19: Yeah, that org tradition and the story is being transformed

1271
01:11:47,359 --> 01:11:50,359
or what I'm saying, keep keeping going in them that

1272
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:53,359
has nothing to do well, I'm just saying that, are you.

1273
01:11:53,399 --> 01:11:56,199
Speaker 4: Too stupid to even understand what I'm answering your question?

1274
01:11:56,359 --> 01:11:58,439
You said, how is the Holy Spirit doing this the

1275
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:01,159
same way he did it from Adam to Moses? You

1276
01:12:01,359 --> 01:12:03,199
just said you just said it's oral?

1277
01:12:03,359 --> 01:12:03,760
Speaker 8: Did you not?

1278
01:12:04,319 --> 01:12:06,920
Speaker 4: Did you not admit it's oral? So you're saying you

1279
01:12:07,039 --> 01:12:10,000
have the same Why do you keep restating what I said?

1280
01:12:10,199 --> 01:12:10,439
Speaker 2: This is?

1281
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:12,520
Speaker 4: This is like mind control or something. I'm trying to

1282
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:14,520
plug in the dots, right, I'm sure to make sure

1283
01:12:14,720 --> 01:12:17,560
from the time of Adam to Moses you just said oral.

1284
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:18,800
So you admitted my point.

1285
01:12:19,920 --> 01:12:21,760
Speaker 2: So I'm asking, he's that the same thing you think

1286
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:23,560
you have? Right from Adam?

1287
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:25,720
Speaker 4: You said, how does the Holy Spirit do it? I said,

1288
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:26,560
the same way he did it?

1289
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:29,800
Speaker 2: Then that's completely a different sort of.

1290
01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:33,359
Speaker 4: Idea, you know, it's not. It's you're asking my position.

1291
01:12:33,439 --> 01:12:35,359
I'm explaining it's literally no different than the way he

1292
01:12:35,399 --> 01:12:35,840
preserved it.

1293
01:12:35,880 --> 01:12:40,319
Speaker 19: Then, So children talking about their own history, about how

1294
01:12:40,359 --> 01:12:42,880
God had been has been working in their culture.

1295
01:12:43,119 --> 01:12:44,840
Speaker 2: It's completely different than having.

1296
01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:47,439
Speaker 4: Done children talking about what are you even talking about?

1297
01:12:47,520 --> 01:12:49,800
Children talking about God working? What the hell are you

1298
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:50,359
talking about?

1299
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:52,680
Speaker 19: Yeah, we're talking about like for like the in the

1300
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:55,479
context the concept of ancient Israel. Right, so God is

1301
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:58,279
literally working through this shertain type of people group and

1302
01:12:58,319 --> 01:13:00,159
everything like that, and the stories.

1303
01:12:59,840 --> 01:13:02,199
Speaker 4: Of you don't even know that your own tradition from

1304
01:13:02,239 --> 01:13:05,840
Adam to Moses teaches that God preserved that tradition, that

1305
01:13:06,039 --> 01:13:07,439
oral transmission. You don't even know that.

1306
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:09,520
Speaker 2: Oh, I know, I can read my Bible and find

1307
01:13:09,560 --> 01:13:10,439
that out. That's fine with me.

1308
01:13:11,119 --> 01:13:13,359
Speaker 4: Where does the Bible tell you that the oral tradition

1309
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:14,039
was preserved?

1310
01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:16,520
Speaker 2: Again, it's it's no need.

1311
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:22,119
Speaker 4: Okay, you're literally a mentally unstable weirdo. Like, literally, what

1312
01:13:22,199 --> 01:13:24,920
you're saying makes note you don't even understand what's being said.

1313
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:27,119
Where does your Bible tell you that?

1314
01:13:28,479 --> 01:13:30,560
Speaker 2: Where does my Bible tell me what? Well?

1315
01:13:30,800 --> 01:13:32,119
Speaker 4: You said? All I need to do is read the

1316
01:13:32,199 --> 01:13:34,119
Bible to figure that out. Where does it.

1317
01:13:34,119 --> 01:13:37,319
Speaker 19: Tell you that Jesus he's access standards to the phares

1318
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:38,960
he's asked, is it not?

1319
01:13:39,159 --> 01:13:41,239
Speaker 4: Where does that tell you the Holy Spirit guided oral

1320
01:13:41,319 --> 01:13:44,319
tradition from Adam to Moses. So now you do believe

1321
01:13:44,359 --> 01:13:49,640
that I said no from the beginning, But then you

1322
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:52,800
just said that the Bible tells you that no.

1323
01:13:52,960 --> 01:13:54,960
Speaker 19: The Bible tells me again, what I need to know

1324
01:13:55,079 --> 01:13:58,359
about any sort of tradition or anything about God, any stories?

1325
01:14:00,239 --> 01:14:03,880
Speaker 4: How do you think the tradition was preserved from Adam

1326
01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:08,680
to Moses? The stories that you read about in the Torah?

1327
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:16,319
This is this is this is the stupidest conversation I've

1328
01:14:16,319 --> 01:14:24,479
ever read. We're done. Como, h.

1329
01:14:26,439 --> 01:14:33,640
Speaker 2: Hello, cayep yo. What's up? Jay? Yeah, I'm not gonna

1330
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:35,840
take up too much time. I got three questions. I

1331
01:14:35,880 --> 01:14:38,239
could just rapid fire them. You can answer, and I'll

1332
01:14:38,319 --> 01:14:39,359
come back and listen to it later.

1333
01:14:41,319 --> 01:14:44,199
Speaker 20: All right, So first question is who or what movement

1334
01:14:44,319 --> 01:14:47,920
spawned the idea of the one, true, Holy and Apostolic

1335
01:14:48,039 --> 01:14:49,720
Church being on invisible.

1336
01:14:49,319 --> 01:14:51,640
Speaker 2: Church, And on what basis did they come to that conclusion.

1337
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:56,520
Speaker 4: It's first found amongst the donuts, and then it's repeated

1338
01:14:56,600 --> 01:14:57,399
by Calvinists.

1339
01:14:58,600 --> 01:14:59,239
Speaker 2: Okay, cool.

1340
01:15:00,079 --> 01:15:02,960
Speaker 20: Second, you'll often hear Protestants say things like I was

1341
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:05,479
guided about the Holy Spirit, or you're not a spirit

1342
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:06,680
feel Christian, et cetera.

1343
01:15:07,199 --> 01:15:09,199
Speaker 2: So I'm sure it's safe to say that most.

1344
01:15:09,079 --> 01:15:11,960
Speaker 20: Protestants think by believing in Jesus Christ in a mental

1345
01:15:12,239 --> 01:15:15,720
sense and professing Jesus as like Lord and Savior verbally,

1346
01:15:16,760 --> 01:15:19,560
is at that very moment you're giving the Holy Spirit.

1347
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:22,119
Speaker 2: So I'm wondering what is the traditional.

1348
01:15:21,800 --> 01:15:24,520
Speaker 20: Orthodoxy on receiving the Holy Spirit or what must be

1349
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:25,800
done to inherit the Holy Spirit.

1350
01:15:26,319 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 4: Well, it's not just being baptized and brought into the

1351
01:15:29,039 --> 01:15:32,239
church in that way through catechisystem baptism, and then you

1352
01:15:32,359 --> 01:15:36,119
have christ Mation, so they no Protestants have christ Mation.

1353
01:15:36,279 --> 01:15:38,079
So that's one of the key elements that's missing.

1354
01:15:39,479 --> 01:15:42,640
Speaker 2: Okay, cool, all right, next one, this is the Okay,

1355
01:15:42,880 --> 01:15:43,960
this is probably the last one.

1356
01:15:44,319 --> 01:15:47,920
Speaker 20: So I got a friend who recently rediscovered his Christian roots.

1357
01:15:48,159 --> 01:15:51,479
He calls himself a Christian. He's a Catholic, but he

1358
01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:53,920
still holds on to like sort of and sort of

1359
01:15:54,000 --> 01:15:57,680
embraces some of Nietzsche and Carl Jung's.

1360
01:15:57,319 --> 01:16:01,600
Speaker 2: Philosophy, specifically stuff like bracing the uber minch or the

1361
01:16:01,720 --> 01:16:03,319
shade within and stuff like that.

1362
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:06,960
Speaker 20: I'm not really too well versed on Knetzsche and Carl Jung,

1363
01:16:07,119 --> 01:16:09,159
but I got some of the books I bottom a

1364
01:16:09,159 --> 01:16:10,239
while ago, just never read them.

1365
01:16:10,479 --> 01:16:12,800
Speaker 2: So when I hear him say stuff like that, I

1366
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:13,840
think that sounds like.

1367
01:16:13,960 --> 01:16:16,159
Speaker 20: Demonic and I wouldn't like, I would err on him

1368
01:16:16,239 --> 01:16:17,600
not leaning into stuff like that.

1369
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:18,680
Speaker 2: But what's your thoughts?

1370
01:16:19,039 --> 01:16:22,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's of course that's deemonica. It's like the uber

1371
01:16:22,399 --> 01:16:25,239
minche was that have to deal with Christianity to the

1372
01:16:25,279 --> 01:16:27,720
guy in the chat annoying to say the least, if

1373
01:16:27,760 --> 01:16:29,600
you don't call in, you get booted. So this is

1374
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:32,840
not for you to come spam all your evangelical gibberish

1375
01:16:32,840 --> 01:16:45,199
in the chat value machine. Yeah, I'm having to unwind

1376
01:16:45,279 --> 01:16:50,039
from that like mind controlled madness of that previous goofball.

1377
01:16:55,319 --> 01:16:57,760
I mean to not know what the regulative principal worship

1378
01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:00,279
is tells me that that person does even know what

1379
01:17:00,399 --> 01:17:02,600
the reform tradition is. And so how are you going

1380
01:17:02,640 --> 01:17:04,479
to come debate this and try to act like you're

1381
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:12,199
some like that's just nonsense. Okay, well it comes to

1382
01:17:12,279 --> 01:17:16,079
the to the chat or not value. What's up on? Mute?

1383
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:17,439
Speaker 2: Hey man?

1384
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:19,439
Speaker 21: I want to thank you first of all for everything

1385
01:17:19,479 --> 01:17:19,960
that you're doing.

1386
01:17:21,199 --> 01:17:24,800
Speaker 2: I'm not coming to debate you do, just have a question.

1387
01:17:26,399 --> 01:17:28,600
Speaker 21: I'm an Orthodox Christian three course dogs.

1388
01:17:29,920 --> 01:17:32,079
Speaker 4: I'm not doing fic qu'es today, man, So please if

1389
01:17:32,119 --> 01:17:34,880
it's an e fic you question, you can find it online.

1390
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:35,960
So what's your question?

1391
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:38,439
Speaker 21: It's all good then, I just wanted to ask you

1392
01:17:38,520 --> 01:17:42,039
about like two things. The first one is the christology,

1393
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:45,520
you know, nature nature of Jesus, Jesus, and.

1394
01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:48,640
Speaker 2: The second one would be as my own family.

1395
01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:52,279
Speaker 4: And what was the question? What's the first question?

1396
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:55,319
Speaker 2: The first question is the nature of nature of Jesus right,

1397
01:17:55,479 --> 01:17:55,880
like what.

1398
01:17:55,920 --> 01:17:57,600
Speaker 4: Do you mean? What's How's that a question?

1399
01:17:58,359 --> 01:17:58,399
Speaker 2: No?

1400
01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:01,920
Speaker 21: So if you can't explain it it of how like

1401
01:18:02,239 --> 01:18:06,640
the Greek Orthodox or the Orthodox viewpoint of how we

1402
01:18:06,760 --> 01:18:09,239
believe like Jesus was right like the natures and everything.

1403
01:18:09,800 --> 01:18:12,000
Speaker 2: If a tafic you question, then fine, that's.

1404
01:18:12,119 --> 01:18:13,640
Speaker 4: I'm not trying to be rude. That's a basic I

1405
01:18:13,640 --> 01:18:17,640
would say, go read uh Dogmatic Theology by Palmazanski and

1406
01:18:17,720 --> 01:18:20,199
he will give you a basic introduction to the hypostatic union.

1407
01:18:20,720 --> 01:18:23,319
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, forth, I gotcha, Sure, thank you.

1408
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:25,920
Speaker 4: No problem. I'm not trying to be rude, but we're

1409
01:18:25,960 --> 01:18:28,119
not doing basic q and A today. This is for

1410
01:18:28,319 --> 01:18:32,359
people who disagree, So debate Islam, Atheism, Catholics, and protests

1411
01:18:32,399 --> 01:18:34,800
of Gnostic Mormon, JW, Hebrew roots whatever.

1412
01:18:35,479 --> 01:18:35,640
Speaker 2: Uh.

1413
01:18:36,520 --> 01:18:40,439
Speaker 4: Please do not ask me a bunch of basic Orthodox questions.

1414
01:18:41,079 --> 01:18:44,079
So this is for people who disagree. Raise your hand

1415
01:18:44,079 --> 01:18:47,399
if you disagree, Benny.

1416
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:53,439
Speaker 2: You what's up?

1417
01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:56,960
Speaker 4: Okay?

1418
01:18:57,119 --> 01:19:01,800
Speaker 22: So I want to Yeah, you're talking about that the

1419
01:19:01,920 --> 01:19:03,680
Quran has the Trinity wrong?

1420
01:19:04,119 --> 01:19:08,159
Speaker 2: Can you can you show that please? It's also a myss.

1421
01:19:09,319 --> 01:19:11,840
Like the last time I came with the myth that.

1422
01:19:11,960 --> 01:19:16,520
Speaker 23: The Quran talks about the same so uh that you

1423
01:19:16,960 --> 01:19:18,439
believe in there's also a myth.

1424
01:19:18,560 --> 01:19:19,680
Speaker 2: So I dismantled that.

1425
01:19:20,680 --> 01:19:23,319
Speaker 4: You didn't dismantle it. You said a bunch of stupid

1426
01:19:23,359 --> 01:19:26,520
ship and then you didn't have an answer. All right,

1427
01:19:26,600 --> 01:19:28,359
Now you're not gonna say you're not gonna talk over

1428
01:19:28,439 --> 01:19:31,880
me with those nonsense you get out of here. You

1429
01:19:32,399 --> 01:19:35,000
do you really think you dismantled the last time you

1430
01:19:35,039 --> 01:19:38,479
were in here? Yes, my claim was, and how did

1431
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:42,119
you You didn't even you couldn't even restate my argument?

1432
01:19:42,199 --> 01:19:43,399
How do you think you dismantled it?

1433
01:19:44,760 --> 01:19:45,359
Speaker 15: If there is it?

1434
01:19:45,520 --> 01:19:51,159
Speaker 2: So you my plim my argument.

1435
01:19:52,439 --> 01:19:53,800
Speaker 4: Can you restate my argument?

1436
01:19:55,000 --> 01:19:55,680
Speaker 7: No, but you.

1437
01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:14,640
Speaker 4: Beak did none through even though he couldn't even state

1438
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:17,840
what the argument is. Trust me, bro, he dismantled it.

1439
01:20:23,479 --> 01:20:25,520
I gotta I'm getting a little two heated. Hey, Jamie,

1440
01:20:27,479 --> 01:20:29,600
I need a I need a ginger chew. My my

1441
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:32,840
blood sugars, my beat us is getting off the charts.

1442
01:20:33,520 --> 01:20:35,239
Could you bring me a ginger chew?

1443
01:20:35,279 --> 01:20:35,800
Speaker 24: And uh?

1444
01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:37,399
Speaker 4: And I don't need more coffee. I'm gonna got to

1445
01:20:37,479 --> 01:20:41,359
I'm gonna get too heated with the idiots. Bring me

1446
01:20:41,439 --> 01:20:45,800
one ginger you please? Thank you? Okay. Beecke is having

1447
01:20:45,800 --> 01:20:49,960
a hard time connecting, so we'll go to Dallas.

1448
01:20:57,399 --> 01:21:04,159
Speaker 25: Yep, Yeah, So I I actually read the Dudo canonical books,

1449
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:07,800
like I guess what was the last month?

1450
01:21:08,000 --> 01:21:08,039
Speaker 2: Like?

1451
01:21:08,359 --> 01:21:12,119
Speaker 25: From first isdras all the way to second Maccabee's I

1452
01:21:12,239 --> 01:21:13,319
was just wondering.

1453
01:21:16,439 --> 01:21:17,319
Speaker 1: What what is the.

1454
01:21:19,039 --> 01:21:22,159
Speaker 25: Does the Greek Orthodox? So you guys reconcile? How do

1455
01:21:22,239 --> 01:21:23,880
y'all reconcile the beginning of Judith?

1456
01:21:25,800 --> 01:21:25,920
Speaker 2: Uh?

1457
01:21:26,840 --> 01:21:30,279
Speaker 4: You're talking about when it mentions a king? That is

1458
01:21:30,319 --> 01:21:32,039
that we're talking about that. I'm going from memory. I

1459
01:21:32,039 --> 01:21:33,439
haven't looked at this a long time, is it?

1460
01:21:36,479 --> 01:21:36,520
Speaker 2: So?

1461
01:21:36,960 --> 01:21:39,920
Speaker 4: The Jews? The Jews typically will use the term of

1462
01:21:40,039 --> 01:21:42,680
one king to reference to all of their enemies for

1463
01:21:42,760 --> 01:21:46,319
all time, Like Amelek becomes a forever a reference to

1464
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:49,600
every enemy of Israel, even though Amelek was dead a

1465
01:21:49,640 --> 01:21:50,239
long time ago.

1466
01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:56,079
Speaker 25: Okay, So I've heard, I've heard, well, I research, like

1467
01:21:56,399 --> 01:21:59,960
Catholics try to give me the answer, and they basically talk,

1468
01:22:00,199 --> 01:22:03,800
but they basically said that, like the region of Assyria

1469
01:22:04,039 --> 01:22:07,920
was like a huge region that included Babylon also.

1470
01:22:07,920 --> 01:22:11,720
Speaker 4: So, I mean the Book of Revelation calls, you know,

1471
01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:16,520
Israel at the time of Christ Sodom and Gomorrah. I

1472
01:22:16,600 --> 01:22:18,279
mean the Jews do this often?

1473
01:22:18,840 --> 01:22:21,560
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, Yeah, that's all I wanted to know.

1474
01:22:21,760 --> 01:22:25,640
Speaker 4: That's okay. I mean it's a common objection. I don't

1475
01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:27,920
I don't think it's a very strong objection. I mean

1476
01:22:28,439 --> 01:22:30,960
the same higher critics will point to similar types of

1477
01:22:31,039 --> 01:22:34,840
things in the canonical text. So who disagrees? So we

1478
01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:39,720
got a bunch of people, fifteen people. I'm eating ginger

1479
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:42,359
cheese to calm down before you start fussing at me

1480
01:22:42,399 --> 01:22:48,880
forgetting got to calm down. And actually people think he's

1481
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:54,039
so mean. The quote meanness actually is because of just

1482
01:22:54,119 --> 01:22:57,039
low blood sugar at time like that. That's all it is.

1483
01:22:58,199 --> 01:23:04,520
Because people will say, how see sometimes he's super patient. Yeah,

1484
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:05,760
it's because of love bluture.

1485
01:23:05,840 --> 01:23:06,079
Speaker 8: That's it.

1486
01:23:06,119 --> 01:23:12,479
Speaker 4: So I gotta have a ginger chew Greek Greek name. Man,

1487
01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:19,439
I can't see what that says. The Chat is saying

1488
01:23:19,439 --> 01:23:24,079
to be more mean, more meon or more mean? Go ahead, man,

1489
01:23:24,119 --> 01:23:24,760
what's up? I'm you.

1490
01:23:27,039 --> 01:23:33,000
Speaker 2: Hey jay, I'm a Catechuban. I had not here to debate.

1491
01:23:33,039 --> 01:23:33,680
Speaker 15: You have a question.

1492
01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:39,640
Speaker 26: So I have an acquaintance that goes to Catholic confession,

1493
01:23:40,319 --> 01:23:42,840
cites Bible versus like a Protestant.

1494
01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:46,359
Speaker 27: And yet it has the audacity to say that the

1495
01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:47,439
Orthodox Church is.

1496
01:23:49,239 --> 01:23:51,720
Speaker 2: Told the true Church. How does what sort of like

1497
01:23:52,159 --> 01:23:54,039
what sort of rebuttal do you have for someone who

1498
01:23:54,119 --> 01:23:54,399
does that?

1499
01:23:54,920 --> 01:24:02,520
Speaker 4: Who says what you cut out. Hello, rebettal to what

1500
01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:03,119
you cut out?

1501
01:24:04,479 --> 01:24:05,119
Speaker 2: That's a connection?

1502
01:24:09,079 --> 01:24:11,039
Speaker 4: You cut out? Man, I can't. I couldn't get that question.

1503
01:24:11,159 --> 01:24:12,880
Try to come out and come back in bea want

1504
01:24:12,880 --> 01:24:21,079
to try again. I got my ginger chew. I'll calm

1505
01:24:21,119 --> 01:24:27,520
him down now, beak, I'm mute.

1506
01:24:28,399 --> 01:24:30,239
Speaker 2: Yo. Hello Jay? What's up? You hear me?

1507
01:24:30,479 --> 01:24:30,840
Speaker 4: Yes, sir?

1508
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:32,600
Speaker 2: Oh hey Jay?

1509
01:24:32,720 --> 01:24:35,760
Speaker 28: So Roman Catholic here. I just had a couple of questions.

1510
01:24:35,840 --> 01:24:38,720
So I watched your you know, reasons not be Roman

1511
01:24:38,800 --> 01:24:41,840
Catholic video, and well, I thought it was persuasive. I

1512
01:24:41,920 --> 01:24:44,680
saw a response that I think kind of just put

1513
01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:47,319
you in shambles. It was by this guy named Michael Lofton.

1514
01:24:47,399 --> 01:24:48,199
Have you ever heard of him?

1515
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:51,399
Speaker 4: Is that a joke?

1516
01:24:52,640 --> 01:24:52,800
Speaker 2: Well?

1517
01:24:52,840 --> 01:24:54,520
Speaker 28: No, I just think he pointed out how you were

1518
01:24:54,600 --> 01:24:56,520
being really uncharitable, so you kind of have no.

1519
01:24:56,600 --> 01:24:59,520
Speaker 4: Like, okay, you're joking uncharitable.

1520
01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:04,640
Speaker 2: Well, I'm just wondering, you know, when are you gonna,

1521
01:25:04,760 --> 01:25:06,760
you know, join the One True Church? You know, it's.

1522
01:25:08,800 --> 01:25:10,800
Speaker 4: Do you have an argument or what's what's up?

1523
01:25:11,439 --> 01:25:14,039
Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, I'm asking you, you know, so all.

1524
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:21,680
Speaker 4: Right, that's really funny. I honestly can't tell that I

1525
01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:25,600
was joking me answerious, It could go either way. Alexander,

1526
01:25:30,359 --> 01:25:32,079
I'm in shambles. From Michael Lufton.

1527
01:25:32,880 --> 01:25:37,279
Speaker 2: Okay, quick question, would you ever debate Bartnerman?

1528
01:25:39,479 --> 01:25:41,800
Speaker 4: I don't know. I'm not a textual scholar, so if

1529
01:25:41,840 --> 01:25:44,800
I debated him, it would be more of a philosophical debate,

1530
01:25:44,880 --> 01:25:50,000
and I doubt he would do a philosophical debate. So great,

1531
01:25:50,199 --> 01:25:52,159
bro you great and cheese in the background. What's going on?

1532
01:25:53,840 --> 01:25:54,119
Speaker 2: Rory?

1533
01:25:59,239 --> 01:26:04,800
Speaker 4: Does not the brood? Then you are in shambles. Broad

1534
01:26:06,039 --> 01:26:08,720
If is anybody present an argument, I've not heard one.

1535
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:11,479
Has anybody even given an argument yet? At least the

1536
01:26:11,640 --> 01:26:14,079
romanicality at the beginning had a few questions and stay

1537
01:26:14,239 --> 01:26:16,520
and at least at tend But nobody's given an argument yet.

1538
01:26:18,000 --> 01:26:18,279
Speaker 8: Rory.

1539
01:26:19,399 --> 01:26:23,119
Speaker 2: Getami mm hm h.

1540
01:26:23,399 --> 01:26:24,520
Speaker 29: Just get a question A bit.

1541
01:26:26,439 --> 01:26:30,279
Speaker 2: Like textual criticism on the New Testament. If you've got

1542
01:26:30,479 --> 01:26:32,640
the actual and historical account of.

1543
01:26:32,680 --> 01:26:38,359
Speaker 4: Jesus, what in your mind counts as a historical account?

1544
01:26:38,399 --> 01:26:40,520
I mean, do the New Testament texts and the thousands

1545
01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:43,760
of texts from the first few centuries count, because that's

1546
01:26:44,159 --> 01:26:46,279
more textual attestation than any other text.

1547
01:26:47,640 --> 01:26:50,279
Speaker 2: If they're anonymous side, they're.

1548
01:26:50,159 --> 01:26:52,119
Speaker 4: Not anonymous the tradition of the Church is that they're

1549
01:26:52,119 --> 01:26:54,039
written by other people, that they're said to be written.

1550
01:26:53,800 --> 01:26:57,800
Speaker 12: By Butt, and scholarship disagrees with that.

1551
01:26:58,199 --> 01:27:00,640
Speaker 4: So on what basis am I supposed follow on belie scholarship?

1552
01:27:00,640 --> 01:27:02,000
Do you agree with them on the Quran?

1553
01:27:04,640 --> 01:27:05,680
Speaker 2: I agree with them on the Korn.

1554
01:27:06,600 --> 01:27:13,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, you don't think that unbelieving scholars debunk the Quran? Really?

1555
01:27:16,479 --> 01:27:21,520
You don't have to like, yeah, come on, you think

1556
01:27:21,600 --> 01:27:24,439
New Testament scholar excuse me, a liberal scholars do not

1557
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:25,359
debunk the Koran.

1558
01:27:27,279 --> 01:27:28,640
Speaker 2: Why are we moving to the Korn?

1559
01:27:29,359 --> 01:27:31,199
Speaker 4: Because it's illustrating a double standard?

1560
01:27:34,720 --> 01:27:37,600
Speaker 5: Okay, okay, you don't want to address don't want to

1561
01:27:37,600 --> 01:27:38,600
address the so.

1562
01:27:38,680 --> 01:27:40,039
Speaker 4: You're admitting it's a double standard.

1563
01:27:41,600 --> 01:27:46,159
Speaker 2: I'm just you said, okay, what you you were?

1564
01:27:46,319 --> 01:27:48,920
Speaker 4: You appealed to unbelieving scholars, and I said, do you

1565
01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:51,920
accept them on the Quran? So that's a double standard.

1566
01:27:52,000 --> 01:27:55,319
Speaker 2: But you're admitting that it is anonymous.

1567
01:27:55,439 --> 01:27:57,159
Speaker 4: No, I'm saying that you have a double standard.

1568
01:27:59,239 --> 01:28:00,000
Speaker 2: What are they.

1569
01:28:01,439 --> 01:28:03,640
Speaker 4: They're not anonymous by the tradition of the Church. I'm

1570
01:28:03,640 --> 01:28:06,680
not a Protestant, I'm an Orthodox. We believe in tradition.

1571
01:28:08,560 --> 01:28:10,840
Speaker 2: So how does that tradition bring you to thinking that

1572
01:28:11,119 --> 01:28:11,840
was actually.

1573
01:28:11,760 --> 01:28:14,000
Speaker 4: The same way that I know what the candone Scripture

1574
01:28:14,039 --> 01:28:15,840
is by tradition. So you think you're arguing to get

1575
01:28:15,880 --> 01:28:16,600
a Protestant or not.

1576
01:28:18,920 --> 01:28:21,000
Speaker 2: I'm asking you to give me the evidence in.

1577
01:28:21,800 --> 01:28:27,520
Speaker 4: The tradition of the church. Is the evidence? Yeah, because

1578
01:28:28,119 --> 01:28:30,600
it's believed to be the tradition that may if you right,

1579
01:28:30,720 --> 01:28:32,640
may if you you understand this is an argument I

1580
01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:35,159
use against Protestants. You don't even know I use this argument.

1581
01:28:36,920 --> 01:28:38,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, but Matthew didn't wrot Matthew.

1582
01:28:38,760 --> 01:28:40,520
Speaker 4: You don't know that the tradition of the church is

1583
01:28:40,560 --> 01:28:42,439
that he did. So that's a question that depends on

1584
01:28:42,520 --> 01:28:43,079
your worldview.

1585
01:28:43,319 --> 01:28:44,720
Speaker 2: Matthew is.

1586
01:28:46,239 --> 01:28:50,159
Speaker 4: To Mark and that's what liberal scholars say. And you

1587
01:28:50,399 --> 01:28:53,319
don't apply that standard consistently because you don't listen to

1588
01:28:53,359 --> 01:28:55,640
liberal liberal scholars on the Quran. Do you so you

1589
01:28:55,680 --> 01:28:58,720
have a double standard? Do you have a double standard?

1590
01:28:59,800 --> 01:29:00,439
Speaker 2: Apostle?

1591
01:29:00,560 --> 01:29:03,680
Speaker 4: Do you have a double standard or not? Do you

1592
01:29:03,840 --> 01:29:05,239
why are you laughing? Do you have a double standard

1593
01:29:05,319 --> 01:29:10,199
or not? Now, do you have a double standard or not?

1594
01:29:11,680 --> 01:29:16,199
Explain why it's not a double standard. You can't so

1595
01:29:16,359 --> 01:29:18,720
notice he can't answer this. Can you explain why it's

1596
01:29:18,720 --> 01:29:29,920
not a double standard. So it's all trolls today again,

1597
01:29:30,000 --> 01:29:31,800
which is which is fine. It's not all trills but

1598
01:29:32,239 --> 01:29:37,640
largely trills. So notice the double standard right now, nour

1599
01:29:38,720 --> 01:29:43,560
now uh as usual with Muslims. But by the way,

1600
01:29:43,600 --> 01:29:46,119
I reject out of hand that I listened to any

1601
01:29:46,359 --> 01:29:50,119
liberal scholar. And notice he doesn't listen to any liberal

1602
01:29:50,159 --> 01:29:59,640
scholar on the Quran. I'm not taking f A Hughes

1603
01:29:59,720 --> 01:30:05,479
acts on Yep.

1604
01:30:06,880 --> 01:30:09,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, so not really an f A to you.

1605
01:30:09,199 --> 01:30:12,359
Speaker 30: I'm I'm an ex senator contest, I'm mechanic human and

1606
01:30:12,439 --> 01:30:14,640
it's a bit more of an a deeper question.

1607
01:30:14,800 --> 01:30:18,600
Speaker 2: So anyway, I was, I was a Scotist when I

1608
01:30:18,680 --> 01:30:21,079
was a senator contest. And there's a are you.

1609
01:30:21,079 --> 01:30:25,279
Speaker 30: Familiar with the absolute primacy of Christ? That that's thesis

1610
01:30:25,399 --> 01:30:30,279
within all the what it's called the absolute.

1611
01:30:29,800 --> 01:30:30,760
Speaker 2: Primacy of Christ.

1612
01:30:32,079 --> 01:30:32,880
Speaker 4: I don't know what that mean.

1613
01:30:33,760 --> 01:30:34,800
Speaker 2: Okay, it's basically the.

1614
01:30:35,319 --> 01:30:38,920
Speaker 30: Theory that if Adam hadn't sent Christ would have become

1615
01:30:39,000 --> 01:30:40,199
incarnate anyways or that.

1616
01:30:40,520 --> 01:30:42,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the Eastern Father's teaching.

1617
01:30:43,640 --> 01:30:46,399
Speaker 30: Okay, So is that Yeah, I've read that Maximus and

1618
01:30:46,439 --> 01:30:48,159
a few others. So does that have the status of

1619
01:30:48,279 --> 01:30:49,960
like your official teaching of the one.

1620
01:30:49,840 --> 01:30:52,680
Speaker 4: That I was church is that at uh it's I mean,

1621
01:30:52,720 --> 01:30:54,760
there's no dogma. I'm not aware of a dogma to

1622
01:30:54,840 --> 01:30:57,159
states that it's just normative in the Orthodox Church to

1623
01:30:57,359 --> 01:31:01,039
understand Adam is as a Chris the logical being.

1624
01:31:02,199 --> 01:31:04,720
Speaker 2: Sure. Okay, awesome, thank you, I answered my question.

1625
01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:07,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, great question, And you are correct that is a

1626
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:11,920
unique thing that the Franciscans had in contrast to the

1627
01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:15,960
tumus that agrees with us in the East. Jimmy, I'm

1628
01:31:16,000 --> 01:31:21,239
not answering faqes so yep.

1629
01:31:22,199 --> 01:31:25,880
Speaker 31: Hey, So I'm a Meridia Cathick having trouble reconciling and

1630
01:31:26,079 --> 01:31:30,840
accepting the idea that our sacraments are that different.

1631
01:31:31,399 --> 01:31:33,479
Speaker 2: And if you could just touch on that and you

1632
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:35,520
a talking about each one individually.

1633
01:31:35,079 --> 01:31:37,720
Speaker 4: But just in general, I don't know what you mean,

1634
01:31:37,800 --> 01:31:39,840
I mean different in what sense?

1635
01:31:41,199 --> 01:31:41,880
Speaker 2: Well, I was just.

1636
01:31:42,119 --> 01:31:44,800
Speaker 31: Reading online a little bit about the differences in the

1637
01:31:45,479 --> 01:31:48,800
two and that some sacraments are not accepted.

1638
01:31:48,920 --> 01:31:52,479
Speaker 2: In the Catholic Church as well as the Orthodox.

1639
01:31:52,600 --> 01:31:54,319
Speaker 31: If one were to go to the other one and

1640
01:31:54,840 --> 01:31:57,880
receive sacraments in those that they're not accepted.

1641
01:31:57,479 --> 01:31:58,079
Speaker 2: In each other.

1642
01:31:59,159 --> 01:32:02,239
Speaker 4: Sometimes, Yeah, it's a case by case basis. The local

1643
01:32:02,279 --> 01:32:05,720
bishop applies the canons based on your situation and what

1644
01:32:06,279 --> 01:32:07,399
what was your history?

1645
01:32:08,920 --> 01:32:12,840
Speaker 2: Okay, so something like the Eucharist could not be I've

1646
01:32:12,880 --> 01:32:14,119
read that, like I would not be able to go

1647
01:32:14,159 --> 01:32:16,039
to an Orthodox church and take us.

1648
01:32:16,239 --> 01:32:18,920
Speaker 4: No, you cannot. No, you have to abjure your heresies.

1649
01:32:20,199 --> 01:32:21,760
Speaker 2: Okay, got it, all right? Thanks?

1650
01:32:22,000 --> 01:32:24,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I see I misunderstood the question. I see

1651
01:32:24,680 --> 01:32:27,880
what you're asking. Now, I got you. I was thinking

1652
01:32:27,920 --> 01:32:29,880
you mean in terms of vality. You're saying, like, could

1653
01:32:29,920 --> 01:32:31,800
I go and partake it? The second I see you

1654
01:32:31,880 --> 01:32:34,000
mean vertical?

1655
01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:38,800
Speaker 2: You see.

1656
01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:40,680
Speaker 4: I have calm them down. Now, I have my sugars,

1657
01:32:41,279 --> 01:32:44,600
have my beat us. I have my beat us.

1658
01:32:44,720 --> 01:32:52,560
Speaker 2: Choose. Well, you must not forget the eleventh Commandment. There, Jay,

1659
01:32:53,039 --> 01:32:54,399
that'll shalt be nice.

1660
01:32:55,760 --> 01:32:56,920
Speaker 4: I am being nice. What's up?

1661
01:32:56,960 --> 01:32:57,079
Speaker 2: Man?

1662
01:32:58,079 --> 01:32:58,199
Speaker 1: Uh?

1663
01:32:58,319 --> 01:33:01,720
Speaker 2: So I have a I have a doctrinal question.

1664
01:33:02,000 --> 01:33:05,760
Speaker 32: I'm a Protestant and one of the things that's a

1665
01:33:05,840 --> 01:33:08,960
hang up for me because as I've been researching into

1666
01:33:09,039 --> 01:33:12,960
Orthodoxy is preservation of the saints.

1667
01:33:13,000 --> 01:33:15,239
Speaker 2: It's it's you know, as far as.

1668
01:33:15,119 --> 01:33:18,479
Speaker 32: The other five points of Calvinism, I've kind of come

1669
01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:21,680
to reject but I think that Roman.

1670
01:33:21,560 --> 01:33:23,399
Speaker 4: Do you mean perseverance of the saints. I don't know

1671
01:33:23,399 --> 01:33:24,000
what you're talking about.

1672
01:33:24,079 --> 01:33:28,439
Speaker 32: Yeah, perseverance of the Saints. But I feel like Romans

1673
01:33:28,560 --> 01:33:35,079
eight thirty eight is like pretty solid and understanding that nothing.

1674
01:33:34,880 --> 01:33:36,039
Speaker 2: Can separate us from God.

1675
01:33:36,680 --> 01:33:39,680
Speaker 32: And I think the reason why Paul goes into such

1676
01:33:39,760 --> 01:33:44,520
great detail about describing all different things is to say, hey, well,

1677
01:33:44,720 --> 01:33:47,319
there's not a single thing that can separate us from God.

1678
01:33:47,399 --> 01:33:49,960
And one of my biggest hang ups with Orthodoxy is.

1679
01:33:50,640 --> 01:33:53,760
Speaker 2: Is it doesn't There doesn't seem to be any assurance.

1680
01:33:55,079 --> 01:33:56,880
So I'd like to hear what you have to say

1681
01:33:56,880 --> 01:33:57,159
about it.

1682
01:33:57,159 --> 01:33:57,279
Speaker 8: Well.

1683
01:33:57,359 --> 01:34:02,399
Speaker 4: First, I mean, even if hypothetic I adopted some Calvinists position,

1684
01:34:02,640 --> 01:34:05,720
you're in no different individual existential position than I am.

1685
01:34:05,840 --> 01:34:08,760
Because Calvinists admit that there's such a thing as self deception,

1686
01:34:09,279 --> 01:34:11,199
where you could believe that you're want to be elect

1687
01:34:11,479 --> 01:34:13,760
and believe that the Holy Spirit has given you the assurance,

1688
01:34:13,800 --> 01:34:16,399
and you might be deluding yourself. So really, there's not

1689
01:34:16,840 --> 01:34:20,359
actually this assurance. There's a theoretical doctrine of assurance, that

1690
01:34:20,399 --> 01:34:22,479
doesn't mean that you have it as an individual Calvinist.

1691
01:34:22,880 --> 01:34:25,279
If you believe in self deception. So that's one point.

1692
01:34:25,680 --> 01:34:28,680
Second point I would say is that the statements about

1693
01:34:29,159 --> 01:34:31,319
what Paul says in Roman's aid have to be balanced

1694
01:34:31,359 --> 01:34:33,439
with everything else he says in many of the other places,

1695
01:34:33,520 --> 01:34:35,840
And so in Hebrews he says that you can particular

1696
01:34:35,840 --> 01:34:38,319
the heavenly gift and be enlightened and so forth and

1697
01:34:38,800 --> 01:34:41,119
fall away. So why would there be all these warnings

1698
01:34:41,159 --> 01:34:44,439
of apostasy if there is no such thing as apostacy.

1699
01:34:45,680 --> 01:34:51,880
Speaker 32: Well, I'm not saying that aposesey isn't a possibility.

1700
01:34:51,920 --> 01:34:55,960
Speaker 33: I'm saying that someone who is truly a yeah.

1701
01:34:56,000 --> 01:34:57,600
Speaker 4: But it begs the question. I know I've heard this

1702
01:34:57,640 --> 01:34:59,079
a million times, So how do you know that you're

1703
01:34:59,159 --> 01:35:00,119
the truly, the truly.

1704
01:35:01,479 --> 01:35:04,399
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that anyone can

1705
01:35:04,479 --> 01:35:06,920
know without a shadow of a doubt. I'm not.

1706
01:35:07,199 --> 01:35:09,399
Speaker 4: Well, then it's then it's not assurance. Then it's not

1707
01:35:09,800 --> 01:35:12,520
once saved always said, not assurance. Okay, So anyway, I

1708
01:35:12,600 --> 01:35:14,279
appreciate the question. I'm not going to go for an

1709
01:35:14,279 --> 01:35:16,000
hour back and forth on that. If you if you

1710
01:35:16,239 --> 01:35:20,600
don't find the text about apost to seek convincing, then okay.

1711
01:35:21,359 --> 01:35:21,479
Speaker 9: Uh.

1712
01:35:21,680 --> 01:35:36,880
Speaker 4: Next up, cool video I'm mute. By the way, if

1713
01:35:36,880 --> 01:35:38,079
you want to support the stream, you can do so

1714
01:35:38,239 --> 01:35:40,640
via super chats. You can also support stream via my

1715
01:35:40,720 --> 01:35:45,560
bitcoin wallet right there. Bitcoin is a free speech based

1716
01:35:45,680 --> 01:35:51,119
mechanism of true currency, true money, authentic ethical money, based

1717
01:35:51,199 --> 01:35:56,800
on math, and based on an international decentralized network. That's

1718
01:35:56,920 --> 01:36:02,960
my wallet, all right. He can't connect, come out, come

1719
01:36:03,000 --> 01:36:05,479
back in if you want to, Please do not come

1720
01:36:05,520 --> 01:36:08,199
on and ask me FAQ questions. If you want to debate,

1721
01:36:08,359 --> 01:36:20,199
I give you the premiacy of place, Rick, Rick, you

1722
01:36:20,279 --> 01:36:22,319
got to get a good connection if you want to

1723
01:36:22,359 --> 01:36:36,000
come on, you don't have to keep raising your hand. Rick,

1724
01:36:36,239 --> 01:36:42,680
I don't know what's up, man, you won't connect. Look,

1725
01:36:43,079 --> 01:36:46,600
if you're an inquirer, if you're a Catechuman, please just

1726
01:36:48,119 --> 01:36:51,199
we do this every day. You don't have to. Is

1727
01:36:51,199 --> 01:36:53,600
there people lazy? Like can you not go ask your

1728
01:36:53,640 --> 01:36:56,439
priest or read the Pomeazansky book? Like you don't have

1729
01:36:56,560 --> 01:37:07,920
to ask me every FAQ catechumen question? Guys, yeah, tech, do.

1730
01:37:08,039 --> 01:37:08,399
Speaker 2: You hear me?

1731
01:37:08,760 --> 01:37:08,960
Speaker 8: Yeah?

1732
01:37:10,760 --> 01:37:14,640
Speaker 34: So right now, I'm thinking of converting either to Catalysism

1733
01:37:15,319 --> 01:37:22,680
or Orthodoxy. But I don't understand how the papacy doesn't work.

1734
01:37:22,720 --> 01:37:28,000
Speaker 2: I think having the unity that they have is is

1735
01:37:28,119 --> 01:37:30,359
good like unit?

1736
01:37:30,439 --> 01:37:32,960
Speaker 4: What unity do you think they have? I mean, again,

1737
01:37:33,279 --> 01:37:35,279
you're not familiar with the world of Catholicism if you

1738
01:37:35,319 --> 01:37:36,000
think it's united.

1739
01:37:37,319 --> 01:37:41,159
Speaker 34: But the Orthodox don't share the same belings about who

1740
01:37:41,279 --> 01:37:46,239
can be rebaptized, contraception look average.

1741
01:37:46,600 --> 01:37:51,119
Speaker 4: But the fact that there's debate and the like discussion

1742
01:37:51,319 --> 01:37:55,880
over issues does not mean that there's no unity. Right.

1743
01:37:56,239 --> 01:37:58,439
What I'm pointing out is that what you're looking for

1744
01:37:58,640 --> 01:38:01,720
doesn't exist. There is no unity like you think in Rome.

1745
01:38:02,199 --> 01:38:04,159
And by the way, even if you think there is,

1746
01:38:04,279 --> 01:38:06,199
even if there was a superficial unity, if it's not

1747
01:38:06,239 --> 01:38:07,520
based on truth, it doesn't matter.

1748
01:38:09,920 --> 01:38:11,119
Speaker 35: Uh Yeah.

1749
01:38:11,199 --> 01:38:17,319
Speaker 34: But aschism between the Moscow and Constantinople.

1750
01:38:18,079 --> 01:38:20,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, but there's a gigantic schism within the Roman Gallic Church.

1751
01:38:20,840 --> 01:38:21,640
So what are you talking about?

1752
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:26,000
Speaker 34: Yea, if I'm joining the Russian Church, is it like

1753
01:38:26,159 --> 01:38:28,640
a separate one or is it the same?

1754
01:38:29,079 --> 01:38:30,159
Speaker 2: Because no, they are.

1755
01:38:30,319 --> 01:38:34,119
Speaker 4: They are out of communion in terms of not reading

1756
01:38:34,159 --> 01:38:36,159
each other. In the Diptychs, the church has not yet

1757
01:38:36,239 --> 01:38:39,479
excommunicated each other, so that is not officially a schism yet.

1758
01:38:40,479 --> 01:38:43,880
All right, But you're not gonna get you're not gonna

1759
01:38:43,960 --> 01:38:46,399
get away from that in Rome, because you're gonna go

1760
01:38:46,479 --> 01:38:49,399
into Rome thinking that as greener pastures, and then you're

1761
01:38:49,439 --> 01:38:51,920
gonna learn about all the problems and contradictions between pre

1762
01:38:52,000 --> 01:38:54,840
Vatican one, a, pre Vatican two and postmatical three teaching,

1763
01:38:55,039 --> 01:38:56,640
and then you're gonna be confronted with whether you need

1764
01:38:56,680 --> 01:38:58,239
to be a trat or not. You're gonna realize that

1765
01:38:58,319 --> 01:38:59,319
you made the wrong decision.

1766
01:39:01,159 --> 01:39:01,520
Speaker 2: All right.

1767
01:39:02,399 --> 01:39:05,680
Speaker 34: Yesterday I talked you to a Catholic priest and I

1768
01:39:05,760 --> 01:39:09,279
told him that I didn't really like the crin pope,

1769
01:39:09,319 --> 01:39:12,640
and he told me that he sees the pope like

1770
01:39:13,439 --> 01:39:14,079
as a father.

1771
01:39:14,840 --> 01:39:17,159
Speaker 2: Even if he does something wrong, you still need to

1772
01:39:17,800 --> 01:39:18,560
respect to him.

1773
01:39:18,640 --> 01:39:21,199
Speaker 4: Okay, but that has nothing to do with Roman Catholic

1774
01:39:21,319 --> 01:39:25,840
dogmatic teaching. Okay, the pope cannot teach new dogmas or

1775
01:39:25,960 --> 01:39:29,239
change the dogmas and he has that's the point. So again,

1776
01:39:29,520 --> 01:39:31,720
you're coming at this with a very naive, simple I'm

1777
01:39:31,720 --> 01:39:33,520
not dissing you, but I'm saying it's a very naive

1778
01:39:33,640 --> 01:39:36,119
kind of simple view, like it's going to work this way. Well,

1779
01:39:36,159 --> 01:39:37,600
I get to see him as a father, and then

1780
01:39:37,600 --> 01:39:39,960
we'll get a new trad pope in the future. None

1781
01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:43,319
of that is even close to what happened to Vatican two.

1782
01:39:43,840 --> 01:39:46,119
And when you have the pope going and praying in mosque,

1783
01:39:46,159 --> 01:39:48,600
and by the way, it's not just Francis, it's trad

1784
01:39:48,680 --> 01:39:51,720
Pope Benedict praying mosque towards Mecca. So do you not

1785
01:39:51,880 --> 01:39:55,359
see that as like a major violation of basic Christian teaching?

1786
01:39:56,520 --> 01:39:56,720
Speaker 2: Yes?

1787
01:39:56,880 --> 01:39:58,640
Speaker 4: I say that because so why would you want to

1788
01:39:58,720 --> 01:40:01,119
join that you're joining in? You understand, you don't get

1789
01:40:01,199 --> 01:40:04,239
to join Catholicism and not be in spiritual communion with

1790
01:40:04,399 --> 01:40:07,439
Francis and his crew. Like there's no other there's not

1791
01:40:07,560 --> 01:40:11,279
like a Catholicism that's not connected to that. You're spiritually

1792
01:40:11,399 --> 01:40:13,279
in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

1793
01:40:14,720 --> 01:40:18,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he didn't bind the church to worship and the.

1794
01:40:18,800 --> 01:40:23,439
Speaker 4: Mosques, right, No, that's not true. So this is all

1795
01:40:23,520 --> 01:40:26,119
the propaganda that you've been told by Roman Catholics that

1796
01:40:26,159 --> 01:40:27,479
you don't have to believe this stuff. Have you read

1797
01:40:27,560 --> 01:40:28,079
Vatican two?

1798
01:40:29,920 --> 01:40:30,199
Speaker 8: Okay?

1799
01:40:30,479 --> 01:40:33,000
Speaker 4: Well, Vatican two says that you are bound to believe

1800
01:40:33,039 --> 01:40:36,840
that Muslims and Catholics worshiped together the same God and

1801
01:40:36,880 --> 01:40:39,159
have the faith of Abraham. Do you think that's that's correct?

1802
01:40:41,960 --> 01:40:46,520
Speaker 34: I think not trially you, But I think it's meant

1803
01:40:46,800 --> 01:40:52,079
it's Kulman that it's more a way to evangelize the

1804
01:40:52,159 --> 01:40:52,760
other faiths.

1805
01:40:53,840 --> 01:40:56,159
Speaker 4: Do you think he's not evangelizing when he goes in

1806
01:40:56,239 --> 01:40:58,479
praise and moss towards Mecca and builds an Abrahamic faith

1807
01:40:58,479 --> 01:41:00,760
center and tells people not to prossly How is he

1808
01:41:00,800 --> 01:41:02,800
evangelizing when he says not to proselytize?

1809
01:41:05,119 --> 01:41:08,199
Speaker 2: But did he make did he make a dougma or is.

1810
01:41:08,199 --> 01:41:11,920
Speaker 4: It just he's expressing that this is what Vatican two

1811
01:41:12,039 --> 01:41:14,680
tells you to do. Vatican two is telling you that

1812
01:41:14,920 --> 01:41:17,359
they have the same God, they have the faith of Abraham,

1813
01:41:17,960 --> 01:41:19,960
So why do we need to evangelize them? And by

1814
01:41:20,000 --> 01:41:22,920
the way, you can't. You can't, the pope can't. You

1815
01:41:23,039 --> 01:41:25,880
can't act contrary to the dogmas. If you're a pope,

1816
01:41:26,399 --> 01:41:29,079
that's also an action of apostasy to go and pray

1817
01:41:29,119 --> 01:41:31,800
and moss towards Mecca. So you're trying to say, oh,

1818
01:41:31,840 --> 01:41:34,800
he's trying to evangelize him. No, no he's not. They

1819
01:41:34,880 --> 01:41:37,880
used to call crusades against these people now, but they're

1820
01:41:37,880 --> 01:41:40,479
evangelizing them a praying most wars Mecca. That's that's an

1821
01:41:40,520 --> 01:41:43,319
action of apostacy. It violates the ancient cannons that say

1822
01:41:43,359 --> 01:41:44,479
you can't even go in mosques.

1823
01:41:45,880 --> 01:41:49,279
Speaker 34: So you're saying that if the pope is a heretic

1824
01:41:49,640 --> 01:41:52,760
or he commits sins, that he's the whole system.

1825
01:41:53,439 --> 01:41:56,960
Speaker 4: Roman Catholic theology does not say that the pope doesn't sin,

1826
01:41:57,279 --> 01:41:59,920
but it says that he can't commit actions of apostas

1827
01:42:00,359 --> 01:42:03,680
like that, because then Rome would defect. Rome cannot defect

1828
01:42:03,680 --> 01:42:07,119
in Romancalatic theology. You defect from the faith by actions

1829
01:42:07,159 --> 01:42:09,520
of apostasy, and you're gonna learn if you become a Catholic,

1830
01:42:09,560 --> 01:42:12,039
and you're gonna make a huge mistake that Romancalaic theology

1831
01:42:12,119 --> 01:42:15,000
has certain sins that automatically excommunicate you. One of those

1832
01:42:15,079 --> 01:42:18,960
is abration. Another one of those is to participate in

1833
01:42:19,119 --> 01:42:22,039
this type of worship with things like Muslims or Pagans.

1834
01:42:22,279 --> 01:42:25,600
To do those things in those rituals is an action

1835
01:42:25,760 --> 01:42:29,479
of apostasies to surrender the faith. That's why as late

1836
01:42:29,600 --> 01:42:32,800
as nineteen twenty eight and Mortalium Animos, the papacy was

1837
01:42:32,840 --> 01:42:35,279
still teaching that it is apostasy to do these things.

1838
01:42:35,880 --> 01:42:38,960
Go read Mortalium Animos then read lemon Gentum sixteen and

1839
01:42:39,000 --> 01:42:42,359
then Nostra Atate. So you're just falling for all of

1840
01:42:42,399 --> 01:42:45,239
their sales pitch, and you're missing the major point here,

1841
01:42:45,279 --> 01:42:48,119
which is that this is clearly not the same church

1842
01:42:48,359 --> 01:42:49,720
that called for crusades.

1843
01:42:54,159 --> 01:42:56,039
Speaker 2: That's true, another Christian but on the same topic.

1844
01:42:57,319 --> 01:43:00,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, so.

1845
01:43:05,640 --> 01:43:06,600
Speaker 2: So Abbot.

1846
01:43:07,920 --> 01:43:11,960
Speaker 36: The first centuries, the priests told me that there was

1847
01:43:12,079 --> 01:43:16,960
only three sees and that Constantinople was ather later, and

1848
01:43:17,359 --> 01:43:19,359
that's why we have the patriarchate.

1849
01:43:19,479 --> 01:43:22,359
Speaker 2: So it's not bublic, but it's not a tradition to

1850
01:43:22,439 --> 01:43:24,159
have the pentarchy.

1851
01:43:24,680 --> 01:43:27,800
Speaker 4: Like, no, that's that's stupid, that's stupid according to his

1852
01:43:27,880 --> 01:43:30,159
own tradition, because Pope saying, Gregory the Great refers to

1853
01:43:30,199 --> 01:43:36,439
the pentarchy. So no nobody believes the pentarchy is from

1854
01:43:36,479 --> 01:43:40,119
the apostles. But in the ecumenical councils, the church eventually

1855
01:43:40,159 --> 01:43:43,399
accepts the pentarchy, even the Western Church, and Gregory the

1856
01:43:43,439 --> 01:43:45,720
Great talks about it. In fact, Gregory the Great says,

1857
01:43:45,760 --> 01:43:49,800
the see of Peter is Rome, Alexandria and Antioch. You

1858
01:43:49,880 --> 01:43:52,399
can go read the Alexandria. Look before you make this

1859
01:43:52,520 --> 01:43:55,159
dumb decision, go read the Alexandria document. And the Chi

1860
01:43:55,199 --> 01:43:58,000
eighty document, and you're going to realize that today's Roman

1861
01:43:58,039 --> 01:43:59,920
Catholic Church is not the church in the Middle Ages.

1862
01:44:00,239 --> 01:44:03,359
It's not the Latin papal church anymore. It's the acumenous

1863
01:44:03,479 --> 01:44:06,800
world church that believes anything and everything. And the Alexandria

1864
01:44:06,880 --> 01:44:09,000
Document and the Ciady document will prove that to you.

1865
01:44:14,560 --> 01:44:41,760
I'm looking for people who disagree, Lauren, you have to immune.

1866
01:44:45,319 --> 01:44:46,039
Speaker 2: Can you hear me? Now?

1867
01:44:46,520 --> 01:44:46,720
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1868
01:44:49,760 --> 01:44:54,600
Speaker 20: How does the Orthodox Church rectify the seventh anathema from

1869
01:44:54,640 --> 01:44:58,319
emphasis one on the christology.

1870
01:44:57,720 --> 01:45:03,199
Speaker 2: Of Christ having two wills? H uh huh?

1871
01:45:03,439 --> 01:45:05,479
Speaker 4: So are you not familiar with any of our responses

1872
01:45:05,520 --> 01:45:06,880
to this stuff? You think that we don't know what

1873
01:45:06,960 --> 01:45:07,640
episode says?

1874
01:45:09,479 --> 01:45:12,039
Speaker 2: No, I I this is my first time asking a question.

1875
01:45:12,680 --> 01:45:14,680
I'm looking into or than.

1876
01:45:25,239 --> 01:45:36,239
Speaker 4: H Are you there? Hello?

1877
01:45:36,960 --> 01:45:38,279
Speaker 2: Do you have a Hello?

1878
01:45:41,000 --> 01:45:44,199
Speaker 4: What's an anthematic? Did you say you're cutting out?

1879
01:45:45,600 --> 01:46:03,000
Speaker 34: I'm sorry, I'm driving the seventh anathemoeah.

1880
01:45:57,279 --> 01:46:06,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, mm hmm. It's the one specifically teaching on No.

1881
01:46:06,680 --> 01:46:09,159
Two wills after the Where does this say?

1882
01:46:09,239 --> 01:46:10,840
Speaker 4: No, I mean I'm looking at it. I don't say

1883
01:46:10,840 --> 01:46:12,600
anything about no. Two wills? What are you talking about?

1884
01:46:14,920 --> 01:46:17,000
Speaker 2: Well? I mean they have to be united wills, right,

1885
01:46:18,079 --> 01:46:19,279
I mean I may be mistaken.

1886
01:46:20,119 --> 01:46:23,119
Speaker 4: If anyone shall say that Jesus as man is only

1887
01:46:23,319 --> 01:46:26,000
energized by the word of God, this would be one

1888
01:46:26,600 --> 01:46:29,680
this would be one energy or one will, let him

1889
01:46:29,680 --> 01:46:30,199
be anathema?

1890
01:46:36,840 --> 01:46:37,279
Speaker 16: Are you there?

1891
01:46:38,000 --> 01:46:40,720
Speaker 4: I don't understand how this been the case. What you're

1892
01:46:40,720 --> 01:46:43,319
talking about? What do you think our position is?

1893
01:46:45,560 --> 01:46:48,279
Speaker 2: Well? I believe that the position is two wills right

1894
01:46:48,840 --> 01:46:49,279
in Christ?

1895
01:46:49,960 --> 01:46:52,880
Speaker 4: Okay, I'm looking at the seventh I'm looking at the

1896
01:46:52,920 --> 01:46:55,439
seventh Anathema, and it says, if anyone shall say that

1897
01:46:55,560 --> 01:46:58,479
Jesus as man is only energized by the word of

1898
01:46:58,560 --> 01:47:00,600
God and that the glory of the only begotten Son,

1899
01:47:00,600 --> 01:47:02,560
who is attributed to him as something not properly his,

1900
01:47:02,840 --> 01:47:05,479
let him be anathema. I mean, so it's saying in

1901
01:47:05,760 --> 01:47:09,880
the story and position, Yeah.

1902
01:47:10,159 --> 01:47:12,119
Speaker 2: He's claiming that Christ has two wills.

1903
01:47:13,399 --> 01:47:15,279
Speaker 4: No, that's not the story. That's not when the stories

1904
01:47:15,359 --> 01:47:19,680
is arguing the Storias has a dual subject Christology. This

1905
01:47:19,840 --> 01:47:21,640
is not saying there's only one will, and that is

1906
01:47:21,680 --> 01:47:23,439
not saying there's only one will. Where does it say that?

1907
01:47:25,399 --> 01:47:27,760
Speaker 2: He doesn't specifically say that. I was just kind of

1908
01:47:27,840 --> 01:47:30,199
assuming that's what he meant by saying that the word

1909
01:47:30,279 --> 01:47:31,760
doesn't energize the human.

1910
01:47:33,159 --> 01:47:34,800
Speaker 4: Wait say that again? The word?

1911
01:47:34,880 --> 01:47:39,319
Speaker 2: What that the word doesn't energize the the the flesh,

1912
01:47:39,479 --> 01:47:39,960
the human.

1913
01:47:41,199 --> 01:47:43,159
Speaker 4: No, it says, if anyone s else, say that Jesus

1914
01:47:43,239 --> 01:47:46,680
man is only energized by the Word of God, so

1915
01:47:46,800 --> 01:47:54,319
that would be one energy. And then it says, and

1916
01:47:54,399 --> 01:47:57,119
then to say that the glory is attributed to him

1917
01:47:57,119 --> 01:48:00,000
as not something properly his, in other words, one subject.

1918
01:48:00,840 --> 01:48:03,159
There's only one subject in Christ, the Son of God,

1919
01:48:03,840 --> 01:48:06,119
the Word of God. But this does not say that

1920
01:48:06,199 --> 01:48:08,239
he has only This is saying that you cannot say

1921
01:48:08,239 --> 01:48:09,560
there's only one divine energy.

1922
01:48:13,479 --> 01:48:15,079
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you.

1923
01:48:16,600 --> 01:48:18,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm sorry. It's just really hard to hear what

1924
01:48:18,079 --> 01:48:24,079
you're saying because of the background noise. But yeah, I mean,

1925
01:48:24,159 --> 01:48:27,479
Nestorius doesn't. It's the debate with the Storius is not

1926
01:48:27,600 --> 01:48:30,439
over two wills or two natures. The debate with the

1927
01:48:30,560 --> 01:48:38,239
Sorius is dual subject christology. Dave, what's up?

1928
01:48:38,319 --> 01:48:38,439
Speaker 10: Name?

1929
01:48:50,000 --> 01:48:50,119
Speaker 2: Uh?

1930
01:48:50,960 --> 01:48:55,560
Speaker 4: Dave? Right there? You gotta amute?

1931
01:48:59,680 --> 01:49:05,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, automatically you too, I know. So. So I'm the

1932
01:49:05,600 --> 01:49:08,119
Mormon on the channel and slid clicks.

1933
01:49:08,119 --> 01:49:11,680
Speaker 37: So my claim is that you know Book Mormon's true

1934
01:49:11,720 --> 01:49:13,199
than or the doxy.

1935
01:49:12,920 --> 01:49:15,479
Speaker 4: Has kind of a problem, Well, how could the Book

1936
01:49:15,479 --> 01:49:17,640
of Mormon be true when it's just like Islam when

1937
01:49:17,680 --> 01:49:20,560
it says that the prior revelation is all corrupted unless

1938
01:49:20,600 --> 01:49:21,640
it agrees with the Book of Mormon.

1939
01:49:22,359 --> 01:49:24,520
Speaker 2: I think that's a common tact that people use. We

1940
01:49:24,560 --> 01:49:26,920
don't say the prior revelation.

1941
01:49:26,640 --> 01:49:29,319
Speaker 4: Is all corrupted every moment. Every Mormon I've ever talked to,

1942
01:49:29,680 --> 01:49:31,880
many many of the missionaries say that the Bible's.

1943
01:49:32,680 --> 01:49:34,720
Speaker 37: I think you would agree that that part of the

1944
01:49:34,800 --> 01:49:37,399
Bible is not exactly as it was when it came.

1945
01:49:37,319 --> 01:49:40,039
Speaker 4: Out, and now it is corrupted. You said, it's that's

1946
01:49:40,079 --> 01:49:41,600
not it. That's not a thing you do, But now

1947
01:49:41,600 --> 01:49:42,119
you're saying it is.

1948
01:49:42,239 --> 01:49:45,720
Speaker 2: I said, it's not entirely corrupted like the Bible.

1949
01:49:46,039 --> 01:49:48,199
Speaker 4: Okay, what's your criteria for knowing when it's not and

1950
01:49:48,279 --> 01:49:48,680
what it is?

1951
01:49:50,520 --> 01:49:53,239
Speaker 2: Joseph Smith made translations or corrections to it.

1952
01:49:53,520 --> 01:49:58,000
Speaker 4: That's so exactly what I said, just like the Muslims,

1953
01:49:58,239 --> 01:50:00,960
winter degrees with winter degrees when it agrees with the

1954
01:50:01,000 --> 01:50:02,039
Book of Mormon is correct.

1955
01:50:03,359 --> 01:50:05,199
Speaker 37: You if you actually looked at the details, there are

1956
01:50:05,279 --> 01:50:06,159
like five of them.

1957
01:50:06,039 --> 01:50:09,680
Speaker 4: That are doesn't matter. So again, because the whole point

1958
01:50:09,760 --> 01:50:12,520
is that that thing's correct, matter because that thing's corrupted.

1959
01:50:12,640 --> 01:50:15,479
And now, so basically you lied because the very thing

1960
01:50:15,520 --> 01:50:16,319
I said is what you did.

1961
01:50:16,800 --> 01:50:17,479
Speaker 8: Yeah, I'm just.

1962
01:50:17,479 --> 01:50:19,359
Speaker 37: Saying if you look those if you look at a

1963
01:50:19,359 --> 01:50:20,560
specific instance.

1964
01:50:20,319 --> 01:50:21,239
Speaker 4: You would see you lied.

1965
01:50:22,720 --> 01:50:23,199
Speaker 2: Yeah. Whatever.

1966
01:50:24,039 --> 01:50:27,920
Speaker 4: Okay, So thanks for admitting you lie. Okay, how's you sure?

1967
01:50:27,920 --> 01:50:29,640
Speaker 2: I'm sure that's a fun debate tactic for you.

1968
01:50:29,840 --> 01:50:31,600
Speaker 4: It's not a debate tactic. You said that you don't

1969
01:50:31,640 --> 01:50:32,880
make that argument, and then you did.

1970
01:50:34,239 --> 01:50:35,960
Speaker 37: I don't make the argument that I said. No, I

1971
01:50:36,000 --> 01:50:37,800
didn't make the argument that it's completely corrupted.

1972
01:50:37,960 --> 01:50:38,439
Speaker 2: Don't make my.

1973
01:50:38,520 --> 01:50:40,880
Speaker 4: Word now you're playing word games because the point I

1974
01:50:41,039 --> 01:50:43,159
ask you, I know, I'm not. I asked you what.

1975
01:50:43,439 --> 01:50:45,800
I asked you what I asked you what the criteria is,

1976
01:50:45,880 --> 01:50:48,319
and you said, Joseph Smith, that's the whole argument, that's

1977
01:50:48,359 --> 01:50:51,159
the argument. Yeah, the criteria for So you have a

1978
01:50:51,239 --> 01:50:53,479
circular argument. Why would I follow a circular argument.

1979
01:50:54,000 --> 01:50:57,279
Speaker 2: No, the claim I made your playing word game.

1980
01:50:57,640 --> 01:50:59,560
Speaker 4: It's not a word game. It's a circular argument.

1981
01:51:00,680 --> 01:51:02,560
Speaker 2: No, the claim I made had nothing to do with

1982
01:51:02,640 --> 01:51:04,640
the changes in the Bible. The claim I made said,

1983
01:51:04,640 --> 01:51:07,239
if the Book of Mormon is true, the Orthodoxy has

1984
01:51:07,279 --> 01:51:07,680
a problem.

1985
01:51:08,159 --> 01:51:10,279
Speaker 4: And I responded by saying that you have the same

1986
01:51:10,399 --> 01:51:13,039
argument as the as the Muslims, and you basically you

1987
01:51:13,119 --> 01:51:16,920
have made argument. Yes it is. I I've debated all

1988
01:51:16,960 --> 01:51:17,960
the top Muslims in the world.

1989
01:51:18,000 --> 01:51:26,520
Speaker 2: What do you mean, Yeah, so the Bible's wrong? Like

1990
01:51:26,600 --> 01:51:27,520
a Muslim doesn't.

1991
01:51:27,279 --> 01:51:30,039
Speaker 4: Say that, yes they do. What are you talking about?

1992
01:51:30,119 --> 01:51:31,279
I have way more.

1993
01:51:31,720 --> 01:51:33,479
Speaker 37: Muslim argue the Book Mormon is true. That's the stupides

1994
01:51:33,479 --> 01:51:34,039
thing I've ever heard.

1995
01:51:34,079 --> 01:51:34,279
Speaker 15: Dude.

1996
01:51:34,479 --> 01:51:36,600
Speaker 4: Obviously I didn't say that. Are you this dumb?

1997
01:51:37,279 --> 01:51:39,039
Speaker 2: No, I'm not just dumb. I'm just you're playing sure

1998
01:51:39,159 --> 01:51:41,159
literally to do the same thing, right.

1999
01:51:41,600 --> 01:51:43,920
Speaker 4: No, I said, you have the same argument as the

2000
01:51:44,199 --> 01:51:50,279
Muslims to say that the prior revelation. Listen the prior Dude,

2001
01:51:50,359 --> 01:51:52,600
you literally came on and said the very thing I

2002
01:51:52,680 --> 01:51:54,279
said you would say. And then you said, you're not

2003
01:51:54,399 --> 01:51:55,720
saying it. This is retarded.

2004
01:51:55,840 --> 01:51:58,680
Speaker 2: Muslims would say like the Bible is no.

2005
01:51:58,760 --> 01:52:01,000
Speaker 4: They don't even know that out. That's not what they say.

2006
01:52:02,079 --> 01:52:05,439
Speaker 2: The Bible is right.

2007
01:52:07,119 --> 01:52:09,399
Speaker 4: What's your criteria? And I said, what's the criteria for

2008
01:52:09,479 --> 01:52:11,319
when you know that? And you said, Joseph Smith, that's

2009
01:52:11,319 --> 01:52:16,079
a circle. Yeah, Joseph Smith, that's a circle like you

2010
01:52:16,159 --> 01:52:18,319
can take, you can take, you can That is a

2011
01:52:18,399 --> 01:52:19,479
circular argument.

2012
01:52:21,760 --> 01:52:23,640
Speaker 2: It has nothing to do with the original argument, though.

2013
01:52:23,680 --> 01:52:24,960
I mean, that's this you're you're.

2014
01:52:24,920 --> 01:52:27,399
Speaker 4: You're this slow. Can you restate what my argument.

2015
01:52:27,239 --> 01:52:28,920
Speaker 13: Is you're saying?

2016
01:52:29,039 --> 01:52:29,840
Speaker 15: Can you say.

2017
01:52:31,479 --> 01:52:33,560
Speaker 37: You were saying because I'm saying the Book of Mormon

2018
01:52:33,680 --> 01:52:35,920
is true, that's somehow equated to what Muslims are arguing.

2019
01:52:36,159 --> 01:52:39,199
Speaker 4: No, you're too stupid to even understand the comparison. That

2020
01:52:39,359 --> 01:52:40,159
is not what I said.

2021
01:52:41,520 --> 01:52:43,359
Speaker 2: Good, I'm not I'm not conflating the two.

2022
01:52:45,359 --> 01:52:47,720
Speaker 4: You don't even understand my argument, do you?

2023
01:52:48,720 --> 01:52:49,800
Speaker 2: Okay? Restated again?

2024
01:52:50,119 --> 01:52:52,880
Speaker 4: So just like Muslims, I'm not saying you have the

2025
01:52:53,000 --> 01:52:56,600
same argument that Muslims have that about the Quran and

2026
01:52:56,720 --> 01:52:59,319
the Book of Mormon. Muslims don't care about the Book

2027
01:52:59,319 --> 01:53:01,880
of Mormon. I'm saying you have the same argument that

2028
01:53:02,039 --> 01:53:04,880
the principle that you used to know is the thing

2029
01:53:04,960 --> 01:53:07,079
in question for Muslims, it's the Quran.

2030
01:53:07,399 --> 01:53:11,159
Speaker 2: Let me finish, use I don't use the bookrue.

2031
01:53:11,239 --> 01:53:14,079
Speaker 4: You literally just did you said when Joseph Smith translated,

2032
01:53:14,159 --> 01:53:17,039
he fixed the errors. You said your criteria is Joseph Smith.

2033
01:53:17,119 --> 01:53:18,239
That's a circular argument.

2034
01:53:18,960 --> 01:53:23,079
Speaker 37: I use no, yes, to know which part of the

2035
01:53:23,119 --> 01:53:25,800
Bible is true, I use several factors, not.

2036
01:53:25,840 --> 01:53:28,920
Speaker 4: Just now you said Joseph Smith. So now it's changed.

2037
01:53:29,720 --> 01:53:32,000
Speaker 2: No, I didn't. I didn't. I didn't say only Joseph Smith.

2038
01:53:32,319 --> 01:53:34,560
Don't don't try and again, this is so.

2039
01:53:34,760 --> 01:53:37,159
Speaker 4: In other words, it doesn't. So it's not so the

2040
01:53:37,279 --> 01:53:39,760
position is a circle. So how is it not a circle?

2041
01:53:41,880 --> 01:53:43,439
Speaker 2: How do you know the Bible is true? Right? We

2042
01:53:43,880 --> 01:53:45,920
read the Bible, we ask God, and God tells us

2043
01:53:45,960 --> 01:53:48,079
the Bible is true. That's how everybody knows.

2044
01:53:48,319 --> 01:53:50,920
Speaker 4: No, that's a stupid argument. That's as dumb as saying

2045
01:53:51,000 --> 01:53:53,640
that I feel good today, So God's telling me that

2046
01:53:53,720 --> 01:53:54,880
I'm good because I feel.

2047
01:53:55,880 --> 01:53:58,159
Speaker 37: If you want to go with the group of Christians

2048
01:53:58,199 --> 01:54:00,119
that don't use that argument, they would say it's.

2049
01:54:00,119 --> 01:54:03,560
Speaker 4: Because that's what your cult does. Your cult says that

2050
01:54:03,680 --> 01:54:05,319
pray and you'll still have a burning in your bosom

2051
01:54:05,319 --> 01:54:07,840
and you'll know that's God. That's a subjective to your version.

2052
01:54:07,920 --> 01:54:10,600
Speaker 2: Then let's go into your version. Your version is, Hey,

2053
01:54:11,119 --> 01:54:12,319
I read the.

2054
01:54:12,359 --> 01:54:14,960
Speaker 37: Witness statements, and because so many of the match therefore

2055
01:54:15,000 --> 01:54:15,600
the Bible's truth.

2056
01:54:15,800 --> 01:54:19,239
Speaker 4: Did you hear me give an evidentialist historicist argument? I

2057
01:54:19,279 --> 01:54:20,079
didn't give that argument.

2058
01:54:21,159 --> 01:54:23,079
Speaker 2: What is your what is your claim?

2059
01:54:23,079 --> 01:54:23,199
Speaker 7: Then?

2060
01:54:23,199 --> 01:54:24,199
Speaker 2: How do you know the Bible's true?

2061
01:54:24,279 --> 01:54:25,279
Speaker 4: The transcendental argument?

2062
01:54:26,079 --> 01:54:27,520
Speaker 2: What does that mean? I have never heard that.

2063
01:54:27,960 --> 01:54:31,920
Speaker 4: Without God's existence, specifically the trinitarian God of the Bible,

2064
01:54:32,279 --> 01:54:34,199
I couldn't have a basis for knowledge at all. So

2065
01:54:34,319 --> 01:54:37,760
all knowledge ultimately derives from my revealed worldview.

2066
01:54:40,119 --> 01:54:41,159
Speaker 2: And that's not circular.

2067
01:54:42,119 --> 01:54:45,680
Speaker 4: Well, it's recursive because all positions are ultimately recursive.

2068
01:54:47,319 --> 01:54:50,640
Speaker 37: Right, But how does that not say anybody with worldview

2069
01:54:50,840 --> 01:54:52,600
has an access to that same claim.

2070
01:54:52,640 --> 01:54:55,119
Speaker 2: I have a worldview and reason of logic as well.

2071
01:54:55,760 --> 01:54:57,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, but your position won't be able to give a

2072
01:54:57,640 --> 01:55:01,159
basis for reasoning and logic. It might use reason free will, I.

2073
01:55:01,199 --> 01:55:06,159
Speaker 2: Mean, we could go down that rabbit hole. Okay, So

2074
01:55:06,880 --> 01:55:08,199
we believe that we have free will?

2075
01:55:09,520 --> 01:55:09,840
Speaker 4: Okay?

2076
01:55:10,199 --> 01:55:11,760
Speaker 2: So what how is that?

2077
01:55:12,159 --> 01:55:13,079
Speaker 4: That's not a justification?

2078
01:55:14,000 --> 01:55:17,920
Speaker 2: That's a justification for a non material world. No, it's not.

2079
01:55:18,199 --> 01:55:19,039
Speaker 4: That's just an assertion.

2080
01:55:19,399 --> 01:55:20,079
Speaker 2: How is that? Do you know?

2081
01:55:20,239 --> 01:55:21,840
Speaker 4: The difference be with an assertion and justification?

2082
01:55:24,880 --> 01:55:29,600
Speaker 2: What? Yes, I'm asserting it. The justification you can't claim

2083
01:55:29,960 --> 01:55:31,880
you know. I guess you would say the justification is

2084
01:55:31,880 --> 01:55:32,920
I think therefore I am.

2085
01:55:33,840 --> 01:55:36,319
Speaker 4: Okay, So now Descartes is the basis for your world view.

2086
01:55:37,840 --> 01:55:39,119
Speaker 2: How do you know you exist?

2087
01:55:40,399 --> 01:55:42,720
Speaker 4: How do I know I exist? Well, again, I believe

2088
01:55:42,840 --> 01:55:45,960
in the Christian worldview, which is my justification for why

2089
01:55:46,079 --> 01:55:49,359
there's particularity, why there's universals, why there's logic, whether there's

2090
01:55:49,359 --> 01:55:50,079
an external world.

2091
01:55:50,800 --> 01:55:51,600
Speaker 2: Ditto same here.

2092
01:55:52,079 --> 01:55:54,520
Speaker 4: But you don't have a Christian worldview. You're not a Christian,

2093
01:55:54,560 --> 01:55:54,800
you're a.

2094
01:55:54,800 --> 01:55:56,800
Speaker 2: Cult Well, yeah, whatever you want to call me. I

2095
01:55:56,920 --> 01:55:59,159
believe in a worldview that allows for me to believe

2096
01:55:59,199 --> 01:55:59,720
that I exist.

2097
01:56:00,920 --> 01:56:03,800
Speaker 4: Well, that, but that's not your justification because you haven't

2098
01:56:03,840 --> 01:56:05,720
given me a coherent account. Let me give an example

2099
01:56:05,720 --> 01:56:08,119
where it's not coherent. You're telling me that the Bible

2100
01:56:08,199 --> 01:56:10,680
is corrupted except when Joseph Smith fixes it. Well, the

2101
01:56:10,720 --> 01:56:13,159
Bible teaches that there's no new prophets after the time

2102
01:56:13,199 --> 01:56:16,479
of the Apostles, So you're you're automatically counseled out by

2103
01:56:16,520 --> 01:56:19,239
the fact that you claim there's a prophet that's a misstatement.

2104
01:56:19,279 --> 01:56:21,920
Speaker 37: Though you're you're making assertion that the Bible doesn't make

2105
01:56:22,880 --> 01:56:23,600
uh no, it does.

2106
01:56:23,680 --> 01:56:25,560
Speaker 4: It says that in the last days He's revealed this

2107
01:56:25,680 --> 01:56:28,439
to us through his son Hebrews one, and it says

2108
01:56:28,479 --> 01:56:30,560
that the times of the prophets he revealed things in

2109
01:56:30,640 --> 01:56:33,279
a different way. So that text says there's no new

2110
01:56:33,359 --> 01:56:37,239
prophets after the time of Christ. I mean that's there's

2111
01:56:37,319 --> 01:56:39,720
no in this last days. He spoke to us through

2112
01:56:39,720 --> 01:56:42,119
his son, Jesus said that John the Baptist was the

2113
01:56:42,159 --> 01:56:44,680
last of the prophets. There are no new prophets. Yes

2114
01:56:44,760 --> 01:56:47,319
he did, Jesus, Jesus, Yes he did. He said John

2115
01:56:47,439 --> 01:56:48,600
was the last of the prophets.

2116
01:56:49,359 --> 01:56:50,439
Speaker 8: No, yes he did.

2117
01:56:51,079 --> 01:56:52,840
Speaker 2: What do you mean he did not say John was

2118
01:56:52,840 --> 01:56:54,520
the last prophet? Yes he did.

2119
01:56:54,640 --> 01:56:56,720
Speaker 4: What are you talking about? Jesus says, John is the

2120
01:56:56,840 --> 01:56:58,560
last of the prophets, and since then the Kingdom of

2121
01:56:58,560 --> 01:57:03,319
God has been preached. Nope, bro, So just saying nope,

2122
01:57:03,359 --> 01:57:04,359
wrong is your argument.

2123
01:57:05,000 --> 01:57:07,319
Speaker 2: You can't you can't produce that claim in the Bible.

2124
01:57:07,359 --> 01:57:08,119
It doesn't exist, Bro.

2125
01:57:08,600 --> 01:57:10,640
Speaker 4: John is the last of the prophets and since that

2126
01:57:10,760 --> 01:57:12,079
time the kingdom has been preached.

2127
01:57:12,359 --> 01:57:14,159
Speaker 2: Just you're pulling that out of a hat. That is

2128
01:57:14,239 --> 01:57:14,880
not the scripture.

2129
01:57:15,079 --> 01:57:17,279
Speaker 4: What you literally don't even know the scriptures. Of course

2130
01:57:17,319 --> 01:57:17,920
it's in the scripture.

2131
01:57:18,279 --> 01:57:21,640
Speaker 37: All the scripture doesn't exist. It said John is a

2132
01:57:21,640 --> 01:57:23,960
great profit. But you never said John was the last prophet.

2133
01:57:24,279 --> 01:57:25,640
You're you're making a lot of inferm.

2134
01:57:25,760 --> 01:57:27,880
Speaker 4: You're an idiot. What are you talking about?

2135
01:57:29,840 --> 01:57:30,159
Speaker 2: What's that?

2136
01:57:34,439 --> 01:57:36,399
Speaker 4: I'm pulling it out. I'm pulling it up.

2137
01:57:39,119 --> 01:57:40,880
Speaker 2: So let's go back to my original claim. Though.

2138
01:57:40,920 --> 01:57:42,680
Speaker 4: That's the point now, now that I'm going to pull

2139
01:57:42,720 --> 01:57:43,800
it up, you don't want to go you want to

2140
01:57:43,840 --> 01:57:44,920
go back to the claim.

2141
01:57:45,119 --> 01:57:46,720
Speaker 2: I just I don't know how long it'll take you

2142
01:57:46,760 --> 01:57:49,439
to pull it up. Sorry, go ahead, Jay, pull it up.

2143
01:57:55,479 --> 01:58:00,600
Speaker 4: The law and profits were until John said that time

2144
01:58:01,039 --> 01:58:04,000
the Kingdom of Heaven has been preached and everyone presses

2145
01:58:04,079 --> 01:58:07,000
into it. There are no more profits. You are in

2146
01:58:07,039 --> 01:58:17,800
a cult. Oh, hold on, Luke, sixteen sixteen. There is

2147
01:58:17,880 --> 01:58:18,319
no text.

2148
01:58:19,199 --> 01:58:20,520
Speaker 37: If you want to make fun of me because you're

2149
01:58:20,520 --> 01:58:21,520
losing the argument, that's fine.

2150
01:58:22,479 --> 01:58:25,640
Speaker 4: I just produced the text you said doesn't exist. You

2151
01:58:25,800 --> 01:58:28,319
produced the to it, you.

2152
01:58:28,680 --> 01:58:30,439
Speaker 2: Added to or took away from the scripture.

2153
01:58:30,520 --> 01:58:33,359
Speaker 4: You're I literally read you the text, you liar. I

2154
01:58:33,560 --> 01:58:36,319
read you the text you're under I literally read you

2155
01:58:36,399 --> 01:58:39,760
the text. Now I'm under condemnation. So because you added

2156
01:58:39,800 --> 01:58:42,319
to it, added, I let I literally just read you

2157
01:58:42,399 --> 01:58:42,720
the text.

2158
01:58:42,800 --> 01:58:45,000
Speaker 2: You lie, and then you added, you added a whole

2159
01:58:45,119 --> 01:58:45,880
sentence after it.

2160
01:58:46,279 --> 01:58:48,960
Speaker 4: That was my explanation, dummy, Obviously.

2161
01:58:48,720 --> 01:58:51,039
Speaker 2: No explanation needed. It's your that was your.

2162
01:58:51,199 --> 01:58:53,159
Speaker 4: Then why are you talking? Why are you talking? No

2163
01:58:53,199 --> 01:58:57,279
explanations needed because you added an explanation, you're making it.

2164
01:58:57,399 --> 01:58:59,600
Oh but no, but so but you can give an explanation.

2165
01:58:59,800 --> 01:59:03,039
So you're refuting your own dumb principle. I don't know

2166
01:59:03,079 --> 01:59:06,279
what we're You just said explanations can't be given. Now

2167
01:59:06,319 --> 01:59:07,640
you're giving explanations.

2168
01:59:08,479 --> 01:59:08,600
Speaker 2: Yea.

2169
01:59:10,399 --> 01:59:13,680
Speaker 4: The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time,

2170
01:59:13,760 --> 01:59:18,279
the Kingdom of God has preached were until John. You're

2171
01:59:18,319 --> 01:59:27,119
in a cult. No, no, no, no, we finally got

2172
01:59:27,199 --> 01:59:40,199
a Mormon. Wow, who's up next? Jeff m.

2173
01:59:45,520 --> 01:59:52,680
Speaker 2: Yep ye, Hey, Jay, I just had a few questions. One,

2174
01:59:54,439 --> 01:59:56,399
I'm I'm an aspiring to be Orthodox, and.

2175
01:59:56,439 --> 01:59:59,560
Speaker 4: I just I'm not doing f a q and catea

2176
01:59:59,600 --> 02:00:01,600
chemic qui since man I said that like ten times.

2177
02:00:01,720 --> 02:00:02,840
Not trying to be rid to you, but I'm not

2178
02:00:02,880 --> 02:00:21,079
doing that. Cassius, Hello, yep, hello, Yeah.

2179
02:00:23,600 --> 02:00:25,600
Speaker 2: So I got a problem.

2180
02:00:25,720 --> 02:00:29,479
Speaker 38: I'm an Orthodox Christian and I got a problem with

2181
02:00:29,560 --> 02:00:31,399
this Muslim scholar in Australia.

2182
02:00:31,520 --> 02:00:34,840
Speaker 2: He lives near me, and I was wondering if you

2183
02:00:35,159 --> 02:00:39,479
would be willing to debate him for because I don't

2184
02:00:39,520 --> 02:00:42,720
know who, have no idea who this is? His name

2185
02:00:42,880 --> 02:00:44,279
is was siem rosv.

2186
02:00:45,039 --> 02:00:46,399
Speaker 4: I mean, is he a known person?

2187
02:00:47,520 --> 02:00:51,680
Speaker 2: He's he has a large Muslim organization in Australia.

2188
02:00:52,920 --> 02:00:55,079
Speaker 4: I don't know. Man, Maybe you can send me his

2189
02:00:55,199 --> 02:00:57,159
links and I'll see if I want to debate him.

2190
02:00:58,920 --> 02:01:02,119
Let's see. I gotta calm down. Things are getting getting

2191
02:01:02,199 --> 02:01:06,680
hot and spicy, getting heated up in here. We didn't

2192
02:01:06,680 --> 02:01:09,079
even get into the good Mormon stuff. It was getting

2193
02:01:09,119 --> 02:01:12,840
too stupid. It was just gonna turn just ridiculous. By

2194
02:01:12,880 --> 02:01:16,680
the way, there's like multiple passages that go through the

2195
02:01:16,760 --> 02:01:18,920
cessation of the Office of problem. That's just one of

2196
02:01:19,000 --> 02:01:21,880
the texts. We could go into the Zechari thirteen. We

2197
02:01:21,960 --> 02:01:24,520
could go into the Book of Jude. I mean, there's

2198
02:01:24,600 --> 02:01:29,199
many passages that even once some are explicit, some implicit,

2199
02:01:29,399 --> 02:01:33,159
that there's a finality to revelation in the person of

2200
02:01:33,279 --> 02:01:39,600
Christ and the time of the apostles. The faith once

2201
02:01:39,680 --> 02:01:41,840
We're all delivered to the Saints. There's no new profits.

2202
02:01:42,039 --> 02:01:48,479
This immediately cuts off Muslims and Mormons. Caleb was, oh,

2203
02:01:48,680 --> 02:01:49,239
so is my.

2204
02:01:49,279 --> 02:01:50,680
Speaker 2: My quality good? Yeah?

2205
02:01:51,560 --> 02:01:53,680
Speaker 39: All right, yeah, I just realized like halfway through that

2206
02:01:53,680 --> 02:01:56,319
you're actually a Christian. So I don't have anything to debate.

2207
02:01:56,760 --> 02:01:59,199
But would you mind if I just like says or shit, No,

2208
02:02:00,119 --> 02:02:03,920
this is about what I'm just gonna like talk about

2209
02:02:04,319 --> 02:02:05,840
some ship to disprove.

2210
02:02:05,479 --> 02:02:06,960
Speaker 2: A couple of religions for the chatters.

2211
02:02:07,159 --> 02:02:09,359
Speaker 4: No, this is not like where you come and give

2212
02:02:09,439 --> 02:02:18,479
a sermon. What's up? Let's see who's next. Ms Mark.

2213
02:02:23,720 --> 02:02:25,159
By the way, I have a old video on the

2214
02:02:25,279 --> 02:02:28,000
cessation of the office of the prophet in the and

2215
02:02:28,079 --> 02:02:30,479
it's in the Old Testament sense like new revelations like

2216
02:02:31,119 --> 02:02:35,119
Mohammad and Joseph Smith. It's on my clips channel. So

2217
02:02:35,159 --> 02:02:37,479
if you come over here to for people who want

2218
02:02:37,520 --> 02:02:39,680
the full Because this came up with that Muslim girl

2219
02:02:39,720 --> 02:02:42,000
the other day. She was asking the same question, because

2220
02:02:43,039 --> 02:02:47,840
what do you mean there's no new prophit uh, And

2221
02:02:48,439 --> 02:02:51,800
let's see what the video is called that. I mean,

2222
02:02:51,880 --> 02:03:02,560
you can come on here. What's your position? So what

2223
02:03:02,680 --> 02:03:04,520
are you talking about? The come on you're gonna come

2224
02:03:04,560 --> 02:03:07,479
on here and gibber a bunch of Arabic gibberish, or

2225
02:03:07,479 --> 02:03:10,600
are you gonna make an argument? They actually think this

2226
02:03:10,760 --> 02:03:13,039
is like an argument like that, I'm not kidding. Remember

2227
02:03:13,079 --> 02:03:15,640
when we saw this with a post prophet, right, like

2228
02:03:16,079 --> 02:03:19,960
when Muhammed a. Job starts singing to Jordan Peterson. Jordan

2229
02:03:20,039 --> 02:03:20,600
Peterson is.

2230
02:03:20,600 --> 02:03:21,880
Speaker 2: Like, why do you do that?

2231
02:03:22,600 --> 02:03:22,640
Speaker 7: What?

2232
02:03:22,920 --> 02:03:23,279
Speaker 6: What's that?

2233
02:03:23,520 --> 02:03:23,560
Speaker 2: What?

2234
02:03:23,800 --> 02:03:25,399
Speaker 4: How do you why do you know when to do that?

2235
02:03:25,560 --> 02:03:31,000
Speaker 2: What is that? So? Why did you do that?

2236
02:03:32,000 --> 02:03:34,319
Speaker 4: And like, in the in their mind, that's an argument.

2237
02:03:35,079 --> 02:03:38,560
They're like, he owned he owned him. He's singing Arabic.

2238
02:03:38,840 --> 02:03:41,319
Speaker 6: He owned him, we owned him.

2239
02:03:41,359 --> 02:03:41,920
Speaker 15: Brought up.

2240
02:03:45,560 --> 02:03:57,319
Speaker 4: Where is the No New Revelations? I can't remember if

2241
02:03:57,319 --> 02:04:02,720
it's an older video or I think it's older. Yes,

2242
02:04:05,079 --> 02:04:19,000
go back a little bit. I want to pull this

2243
02:04:19,159 --> 02:04:21,479
up because it keeps coming up where people think that

2244
02:04:23,119 --> 02:04:27,119
there's this ongoing office of the prophet, which like because

2245
02:04:27,119 --> 02:04:29,279
if there's not the ongoing office of the prophet, then

2246
02:04:29,439 --> 02:04:32,079
that cuts out a lot of these cults right in Islam.

2247
02:04:33,119 --> 02:04:40,840
But I can't remember what I titled that video No

2248
02:04:41,039 --> 02:04:49,600
New I should I tell that something simpler? So today

2249
02:04:50,039 --> 02:04:52,439
today is open debate. Please do not come with all

2250
02:04:52,479 --> 02:04:56,680
of your catechumen questions. It's not FAQ, it's gigantic text

2251
02:04:56,760 --> 02:05:00,960
to the top that says debate. So this is debate day,

2252
02:05:04,479 --> 02:05:05,960
and if you want sports stream, you can send a

2253
02:05:06,000 --> 02:05:07,760
super chat. I gotta find this. I know, I know,

2254
02:05:07,840 --> 02:05:12,479
I made a clipse video of this moon beavers. That's

2255
02:05:12,560 --> 02:05:12,760
not it.

2256
02:05:13,119 --> 02:05:24,600
Speaker 40: Okay, it's not any of those.

2257
02:05:35,760 --> 02:05:39,279
Speaker 4: I just pulled it up. I thought when that Muslim

2258
02:05:39,279 --> 02:05:52,119
girl called in, maybe I never made a clip. I

2259
02:05:52,159 --> 02:05:59,159
don't know, no, because I remember it was fda Is

2260
02:05:59,239 --> 02:06:02,399
on the call and we we're talking. Does anybody remember

2261
02:06:02,439 --> 02:06:02,800
this clip?

2262
02:06:02,960 --> 02:06:03,000
Speaker 2: No?

2263
02:06:03,119 --> 02:06:05,680
Speaker 4: New, I don't know. Let's have the finest other time.

2264
02:06:07,199 --> 02:06:07,560
Speaker 2: W K.

2265
02:06:08,439 --> 02:06:11,119
Speaker 4: Please don't ask me Orthodox questions basic Orthodox questions.

2266
02:06:17,520 --> 02:06:20,560
Speaker 2: Hey, so I have a question that's not really like

2267
02:06:20,680 --> 02:06:23,239
basic simply.

2268
02:06:23,319 --> 02:06:28,079
Speaker 41: I hear Andrew Wilson frequently, and I've asked my you know,

2269
02:06:29,560 --> 02:06:33,720
priest about this, and a sentinarian and everything, and I'm

2270
02:06:33,760 --> 02:06:38,760
getting different answers from everybody on the using of the

2271
02:06:38,840 --> 02:06:42,039
Eucharis in a Roman Catholic church.

2272
02:06:43,159 --> 02:06:47,479
Speaker 2: Like I hear that andrews says I could go down

2273
02:06:47,520 --> 02:06:50,840
to a Catholic church and take communion there, but they

2274
02:06:50,880 --> 02:06:51,960
can't do it with us.

2275
02:06:52,720 --> 02:06:55,760
Speaker 41: And then I hear Roman Catholics say the same thing,

2276
02:06:55,960 --> 02:06:56,640
just the reverse.

2277
02:06:57,960 --> 02:07:00,319
Speaker 4: No, Roman Catholics cannot commune an Orthodox Church.

2278
02:07:03,199 --> 02:07:05,880
Speaker 2: Okay, but could I go to like Sacred Heart and

2279
02:07:06,279 --> 02:07:07,680
commune there? Yeah?

2280
02:07:07,800 --> 02:07:09,920
Speaker 4: But what's what what's what's the point.

2281
02:07:12,079 --> 02:07:14,159
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to get just an answer, whether it's

2282
02:07:14,279 --> 02:07:16,720
you know, prohibited or not. No.

2283
02:07:17,600 --> 02:07:20,600
Speaker 4: I mean, Robin Catholics are are all over the place,

2284
02:07:20,680 --> 02:07:22,640
so yeah, I'm sure they'll let you. But the norm

2285
02:07:22,720 --> 02:07:26,039
in the Orthodox Church is only baptized Orthodox can commune,

2286
02:07:26,359 --> 02:07:33,680
and the priest says that in every liturgy. Yeah, so,

2287
02:07:33,960 --> 02:07:36,560
I mean it's not it's not even controversial. I'm not

2288
02:07:36,600 --> 02:07:38,880
trying to be rude to you, but like, that's not

2289
02:07:39,039 --> 02:07:43,520
even controversial. And that is a very fac question. Elijah,

2290
02:07:46,319 --> 02:07:48,439
Does anybody know where this video is that I'm talking about.

2291
02:07:48,520 --> 02:07:53,800
That's a clip of like it's from a live tream

2292
02:07:53,840 --> 02:07:56,079
I did where we covered this whole question of whether

2293
02:07:56,159 --> 02:07:59,600
there's no new there's no new revelations and new prophets

2294
02:07:59,760 --> 02:08:11,600
some like that. Elijah, what's up? You have to unmute, man, guys,

2295
02:08:11,600 --> 02:08:19,479
you gotta unmute. You have to turn your speaker on

2296
02:08:19,560 --> 02:08:22,600
if you want to come talk, dude, you have to

2297
02:08:22,640 --> 02:08:25,039
give Mike permissions so we can. There's no sound.

2298
02:08:31,520 --> 02:08:41,840
Speaker 2: Matt, Hey, what's up?

2299
02:08:43,960 --> 02:08:47,119
Speaker 12: And I'm sorry?

2300
02:08:48,439 --> 02:08:51,840
Speaker 2: How do you reconcile the fact that how do you

2301
02:08:51,880 --> 02:08:54,479
reconcile the fact that in the boiblet says and the

2302
02:08:54,560 --> 02:09:02,760
Gospel will be preached to the whole world, will be

2303
02:09:02,800 --> 02:09:05,399
preached to the whole world. And but the schism kind of.

2304
02:09:05,399 --> 02:09:07,439
Speaker 42: Happened before was preaching to the whole world? I mean,

2305
02:09:08,000 --> 02:09:10,399
surely the God he wants an orthodox coind.

2306
02:09:10,199 --> 02:09:12,600
Speaker 2: Of a world be to be preaching the whole world before.

2307
02:09:13,279 --> 02:09:15,720
Speaker 4: And Paul says the Gospels preaching every preaching and or

2308
02:09:15,760 --> 02:09:17,239
having a Colossians, So what do you mean?

2309
02:09:19,000 --> 02:09:21,960
Speaker 42: Yeah, but it's preached by a Catholic point of background.

2310
02:09:22,079 --> 02:09:24,880
Speaker 4: Now, oh, so you think the entire first one thousand

2311
02:09:24,920 --> 02:09:26,199
years of the church was Roman Catholic?

2312
02:09:28,000 --> 02:09:31,920
Speaker 2: No, the layer of years war, the what the later years?

2313
02:09:33,880 --> 02:09:36,199
Speaker 4: Okay, well, if the first thousand years weren't Roman Catholic,

2314
02:09:36,199 --> 02:09:38,239
then the Roman Calolic churches in the historical church.

2315
02:09:40,680 --> 02:09:42,520
Speaker 42: I know, but it was it was more of the

2316
02:09:42,560 --> 02:09:44,960
preacher not done in the later years, say, like you know,

2317
02:09:45,079 --> 02:09:47,279
the sixteen hundreds when they went to the Americas.

2318
02:09:52,680 --> 02:09:53,880
Speaker 4: I don't understand the argument.

2319
02:09:54,359 --> 02:09:59,039
Speaker 2: What are you saying, Sorry, I have another question.

2320
02:10:00,279 --> 02:10:03,119
Speaker 4: You're saying that the entire world has been preached the

2321
02:10:03,239 --> 02:10:04,840
Roman Catholic Gospels that you're saying.

2322
02:10:05,720 --> 02:10:07,479
Speaker 42: I'm not saying that it has been, but I'm saying

2323
02:10:07,520 --> 02:10:10,000
that I would take the majority of it has been,

2324
02:10:10,159 --> 02:10:12,760
rather than the Orthodox to it like THEE would.

2325
02:10:13,319 --> 02:10:16,199
Speaker 4: Well, but if the first thousand years of Christianity was Orthodox,

2326
02:10:16,319 --> 02:10:19,119
that's not true, I know.

2327
02:10:19,239 --> 02:10:21,279
Speaker 42: But the first thousand news of Christianity only brings you

2328
02:10:21,399 --> 02:10:24,479
so far. So say, when was America discovered? The America's

2329
02:10:24,560 --> 02:10:28,840
got the Catholic kind of introduction to Christianity.

2330
02:10:28,960 --> 02:10:33,039
Speaker 4: No, No, the first Christianity here might have actually been orthodox.

2331
02:10:35,960 --> 02:10:38,399
Speaker 42: Well, you have been taught with probably the Conquistators, which

2332
02:10:38,399 --> 02:10:39,520
are primarily Roman Cathelic.

2333
02:10:39,600 --> 02:10:43,039
Speaker 4: Well, there's evidence that there was actually Orthodoxy prior to that.

2334
02:10:43,840 --> 02:10:47,079
Perhaps there's certain vikings that might have come, but it

2335
02:10:47,159 --> 02:10:50,399
doesn't even matter because at first or whatever, Like I mean,

2336
02:10:50,920 --> 02:10:52,680
it's a question of what's true. It's not a question

2337
02:10:52,760 --> 02:10:55,439
of numbers. So this is an often Roman Catholic used

2338
02:10:55,479 --> 02:10:58,239
argument that it's numbers that prove things. But I mean

2339
02:10:58,760 --> 02:11:01,239
does that mean that arian is was true because Arianism

2340
02:11:01,359 --> 02:11:02,960
was the dominant number in the fourth century.

2341
02:11:04,039 --> 02:11:05,239
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it's more dominant.

2342
02:11:05,239 --> 02:11:07,119
Speaker 4: But what of the saying He did say that though,

2343
02:11:07,159 --> 02:11:08,239
because you said it's numbers.

2344
02:11:09,720 --> 02:11:12,279
Speaker 42: No, But what I'm getting at is in the voyebo

2345
02:11:12,319 --> 02:11:16,880
doesn't even say that Christianity will be preached to all

2346
02:11:16,960 --> 02:11:17,439
the nations.

2347
02:11:17,600 --> 02:11:21,199
Speaker 4: But what's the w Well yeah, but but I mean,

2348
02:11:21,880 --> 02:11:24,119
the Romancality Church could go away and in the next

2349
02:11:24,199 --> 02:11:26,439
thousand years Orthodoxy preach it to the rest of the world.

2350
02:11:26,600 --> 02:11:29,039
So how is that going to be a proof for

2351
02:11:29,199 --> 02:11:31,600
Roman Catholicism if there's I mean, that's just based on

2352
02:11:31,760 --> 02:11:33,119
like things we don't know in the future.

2353
02:11:34,000 --> 02:11:35,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. That's good point.

2354
02:11:35,479 --> 02:11:38,520
Speaker 4: Ye here, what was your other question?

2355
02:11:40,079 --> 02:11:41,840
Speaker 2: I heard this on the debate and I continue to

2356
02:11:41,880 --> 02:11:42,520
get an answer for it.

2357
02:11:42,760 --> 02:11:45,159
Speaker 42: Boy and eighties said this. He said, if God is

2358
02:11:45,359 --> 02:11:47,960
a perfect being, and why does he even feel the

2359
02:11:48,039 --> 02:11:48,720
need to create?

2360
02:11:50,479 --> 02:11:51,760
Speaker 2: It wasn't not perfect himself.

2361
02:11:52,239 --> 02:11:55,239
Speaker 4: It wasn't a need. It was an overflowing of divine goodness,

2362
02:11:55,319 --> 02:11:58,159
which is what Saint maxim As another church father, says.

2363
02:11:58,199 --> 02:12:02,800
So he wanted to express even more of his goodness

2364
02:12:02,880 --> 02:12:05,560
by having other beings that could share in communion and

2365
02:12:05,640 --> 02:12:09,800
goodness with him, and so he was sufficient in terms

2366
02:12:09,880 --> 02:12:17,119
of the intertrinitarian life from all existence. Yes, this is

2367
02:12:17,199 --> 02:12:20,960
for people who disagree. So please don't bring me a

2368
02:12:20,960 --> 02:12:23,960
whole bunch of orthodox I f AQ questions. Don't I don't.

2369
02:12:24,000 --> 02:12:27,039
Don't ask me about your fasting and your all this stuff.

2370
02:12:27,039 --> 02:12:38,680
And I want to talk about that glove. You don't

2371
02:12:38,680 --> 02:12:42,920
even have your mic on. Man, You've been begging to

2372
02:12:42,960 --> 02:12:44,640
talk this entire time. You don't have a mic on.

2373
02:12:46,039 --> 02:12:46,239
Speaker 15: Eric?

2374
02:12:46,680 --> 02:12:47,039
Speaker 4: What's up?

2375
02:12:47,119 --> 02:12:47,279
Speaker 2: Eric?

2376
02:12:54,560 --> 02:12:58,640
Speaker 16: Hdo thank you? I have a question regarding the Bible.

2377
02:12:59,359 --> 02:13:04,199
There is a Jesus says that every said a man

2378
02:13:04,640 --> 02:13:06,720
who can I'm cast out. You meant in the name

2379
02:13:06,800 --> 02:13:07,279
of Jesus.

2380
02:13:07,960 --> 02:13:09,640
Speaker 2: So I want I want to know.

2381
02:13:11,359 --> 02:13:15,079
Speaker 16: Possible that we all we don't have to be about

2382
02:13:15,119 --> 02:13:16,279
a dis denomination.

2383
02:13:16,479 --> 02:13:19,439
Speaker 4: But no, because after that he says that this person

2384
02:13:19,520 --> 02:13:22,359
will not forever be apart from us, but he will

2385
02:13:22,399 --> 02:13:26,039
also be eventually with us. An Act eighteen and nineteen,

2386
02:13:26,079 --> 02:13:28,840
when the apostles go out, they bring the disciples that

2387
02:13:29,000 --> 02:13:30,640
had not heard about the Holy Spirit or had not

2388
02:13:30,760 --> 02:13:42,319
been christmated under the episcopacy. But good question, Dave yep.

2389
02:13:42,399 --> 02:13:45,079
Speaker 43: I'm sorry about I'm sorry about wasting your time last

2390
02:13:45,079 --> 02:13:45,560
time I came on.

2391
02:13:45,720 --> 02:13:47,119
Speaker 2: But a serious question.

2392
02:13:47,199 --> 02:13:48,840
Speaker 4: I don't remember what we're talking about, what you're talking about.

2393
02:13:50,279 --> 02:13:52,880
Speaker 43: I'm not orthodox, I said, I was aspiring to be.

2394
02:13:53,000 --> 02:13:56,600
But my question wasn't about catechumud or whatever.

2395
02:13:57,000 --> 02:13:57,239
Speaker 8: Okay.

2396
02:14:00,000 --> 02:14:03,199
Speaker 43: The question was with regard to one of your accusations

2397
02:14:03,239 --> 02:14:08,239
against Protestantism. Okay, how the damnation of the son logically

2398
02:14:08,359 --> 02:14:09,920
concludes to Nestorianism?

2399
02:14:10,279 --> 02:14:10,600
Speaker 4: Correct?

2400
02:14:10,600 --> 02:14:12,880
Speaker 2: I was hoping you help me understand that a little bit.

2401
02:14:13,319 --> 02:14:15,520
Speaker 4: Well, it's just a denial of the trinity. So the

2402
02:14:15,880 --> 02:14:18,000
Son is a divine person, he's the second person of

2403
02:14:18,039 --> 02:14:20,119
the Godhead. So how could he be damned by the

2404
02:14:20,159 --> 02:14:22,439
Father when he shares the same will, the same nature

2405
02:14:22,800 --> 02:14:24,920
and the Father and the Spirit and dwell him. To

2406
02:14:25,079 --> 02:14:27,159
damn him would be to split the trinity. So it's

2407
02:14:27,159 --> 02:14:31,199
actually worse than just an historian, it's actually arian mm hmm.

2408
02:14:32,720 --> 02:14:38,600
Speaker 2: Okay. I I read Hermann Bavnick a little bit ago.

2409
02:14:38,960 --> 02:14:42,119
I think, I think, oh, I'm so sorry.

2410
02:14:43,560 --> 02:14:49,720
Speaker 43: And he addressed this particular objection, and I promise I'm

2411
02:14:49,720 --> 02:14:51,920
gonna butcher this. But he said something in regard to

2412
02:14:53,119 --> 02:14:55,279
the subsistence of the son.

2413
02:14:58,760 --> 02:15:02,720
Speaker 4: Subsistence means per so the Sun is the subsistence.

2414
02:15:03,760 --> 02:15:06,800
Speaker 43: So he said something with regard to like the subsistence

2415
02:15:06,840 --> 02:15:09,359
of the son fully present on the cross.

2416
02:15:09,720 --> 02:15:10,000
Speaker 2: With that.

2417
02:15:12,199 --> 02:15:15,279
Speaker 4: Subsistence means person, that's the same thing as the son.

2418
02:15:16,680 --> 02:15:19,640
So I don't know, this is just stating that he's

2419
02:15:19,680 --> 02:15:24,359
the second person. How does that answer this question? I

2420
02:15:24,399 --> 02:15:25,199
don't think he does.

2421
02:15:25,800 --> 02:15:30,000
Speaker 2: That's just what I read. I wasn't sure if if

2422
02:15:30,039 --> 02:15:30,560
it did or not.

2423
02:15:30,680 --> 02:15:33,600
Speaker 4: I mean it actually it proves the point because the

2424
02:15:33,720 --> 02:15:36,840
subject that's on the cross is the divine person of

2425
02:15:36,880 --> 02:15:40,840
the Sun, the second subject in the triad, the trinity. Right,

2426
02:15:41,359 --> 02:15:44,000
So when he says, my God, my God, why have

2427
02:15:44,079 --> 02:15:46,680
you forsaken me? If that's damnation, then that's the son

2428
02:15:46,800 --> 02:15:49,399
being damned by the father, and that's actually classical Reformation

2429
02:15:49,520 --> 02:15:55,000
the elogy. Okay, all right, that's okay, good questions. I'm

2430
02:15:55,000 --> 02:15:56,960
not trying to be rude to you, but tonight was

2431
02:15:57,000 --> 02:16:01,039
a lot of Uh, we've had some sass so far. Kamala,

2432
02:16:01,119 --> 02:16:04,479
what's up? We've got some come all up in the

2433
02:16:04,560 --> 02:16:08,359
Kamala Unism. Come mama, what's up coming with hers?

2434
02:16:08,920 --> 02:16:09,079
Speaker 7: Oh?

2435
02:16:09,159 --> 02:16:13,439
Speaker 2: Bro yo, it's a quick question. It's really nothing like crazy.

2436
02:16:13,560 --> 02:16:15,960
Let me just pull it up. I affirm your words

2437
02:16:16,000 --> 02:16:16,359
and stuff.

2438
02:16:16,600 --> 02:16:19,119
Speaker 4: It's just you affirm my words. Uh huh, your troll?

2439
02:16:19,239 --> 02:16:19,680
What do you want?

2440
02:16:20,279 --> 02:16:20,319
Speaker 10: No?

2441
02:16:20,520 --> 02:16:26,000
Speaker 2: I should I have a question. So you know, papias correct.

2442
02:16:27,079 --> 02:16:34,399
Speaker 4: Papias, papayas, papayas. What are you talking about? I have words.

2443
02:16:34,559 --> 02:16:38,159
Anybody who starts with this weird fake voice, I have

2444
02:16:38,319 --> 02:16:43,719
fired your words. Dude, I already know you're trolling. Shiro.

2445
02:16:45,280 --> 02:16:51,799
I affirm your words. Dude's name was Kamala. Come on, Shiro,

2446
02:16:59,520 --> 02:17:02,159
I mean a hi Hi.

2447
02:17:02,399 --> 02:17:07,719
Speaker 2: Can you hear me? Yes? So, I don't like this

2448
02:17:07,799 --> 02:17:10,440
is not a debate thing, but I just want to ask.

2449
02:17:12,079 --> 02:17:15,799
Speaker 44: I like not an agnostic, but I adopted exist of God,

2450
02:17:15,840 --> 02:17:18,440
and I want to know what to guarantees that exist

2451
02:17:19,200 --> 02:17:23,360
being in that presents and energy matter, Like why the

2452
02:17:23,399 --> 02:17:24,159
guarantees God?

2453
02:17:24,239 --> 02:17:24,399
Speaker 7: You know.

2454
02:17:26,399 --> 02:17:27,639
Speaker 4: The transondent argument?

2455
02:17:30,399 --> 02:17:31,879
Speaker 2: Can you give me? Yes?

2456
02:17:32,000 --> 02:17:34,760
Speaker 4: You can go watch all the videos on it. Stan,

2457
02:17:41,879 --> 02:17:42,319
what's up?

2458
02:17:42,399 --> 02:17:44,079
Speaker 2: Jay? Hey?

2459
02:17:45,319 --> 02:17:47,200
Speaker 45: I was one of the I'm on your side, but

2460
02:17:47,200 --> 02:17:48,799
I was wondering if this is a good argument for

2461
02:17:49,479 --> 02:17:52,319
if God begets God every other being they were only

2462
02:17:52,399 --> 02:17:55,559
able to beget the same nature, so God can't be

2463
02:17:55,760 --> 02:17:57,520
why would God beget a lesser nature?

2464
02:17:57,559 --> 02:17:58,520
Speaker 2: Being? Right?

2465
02:17:58,879 --> 02:17:59,319
Speaker 4: I agree?

2466
02:17:59,440 --> 02:18:01,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, that's all I want of them.

2467
02:18:02,680 --> 02:18:04,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's a good point to make with

2468
02:18:05,360 --> 02:18:07,719
you know, people that would say deny the deity of

2469
02:18:07,760 --> 02:18:11,440
the sun or whatever, like if God's begetting then you know,

2470
02:18:11,559 --> 02:18:13,840
if you had an arian who said that he's begetting

2471
02:18:13,879 --> 02:18:16,040
a creature, well that doesn't make any sense to because

2472
02:18:16,079 --> 02:18:27,920
to beget presupposes the same nature. Right, that's a good point, Hans, Right,

2473
02:18:28,200 --> 02:18:28,520
go ahead.

2474
02:18:29,920 --> 02:18:32,079
Speaker 29: Hey, Jay, I just wanted to say, first of all,

2475
02:18:32,120 --> 02:18:35,079
thank you for putting this platform for all of us

2476
02:18:35,159 --> 02:18:36,639
to force our opinions.

2477
02:18:38,959 --> 02:18:43,079
Speaker 24: Just from a general perspective, do you believe that Jesus

2478
02:18:43,200 --> 02:18:43,639
wanted to.

2479
02:18:45,520 --> 02:18:47,680
Speaker 8: His intention was for the church to be united?

2480
02:18:49,239 --> 02:18:49,440
Speaker 4: Yes?

2481
02:18:49,959 --> 02:18:52,840
Speaker 2: Yes, Well I actually agree with you in terms of

2482
02:18:53,479 --> 02:18:57,159
the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church. But do you

2483
02:18:57,239 --> 02:18:59,879
not see that the Orthodox is Christianity.

2484
02:19:00,239 --> 02:19:03,200
Speaker 29: Emphasizes national churches and decentralized authority.

2485
02:19:04,959 --> 02:19:06,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, and that's what you see in the

2486
02:19:07,000 --> 02:19:08,000
ecumenical councils.

2487
02:19:08,159 --> 02:19:12,840
Speaker 29: So yeah, and would you would you suggest or would

2488
02:19:12,879 --> 02:19:17,840
you argue that this would weaken the church's influence.

2489
02:19:19,600 --> 02:19:21,239
Speaker 2: Rather than I think.

2490
02:19:21,120 --> 02:19:24,399
Speaker 4: It's I think it's I think it's natural because Jesus said,

2491
02:19:24,440 --> 02:19:27,319
go out and preach the Gospel to the ethnois the nations.

2492
02:19:27,479 --> 02:19:29,360
Those that's who he says in the Great Commission to

2493
02:19:29,399 --> 02:19:31,479
go convert. When you go through the history of the

2494
02:19:31,559 --> 02:19:34,680
Roman Empire, that's that's the nations that convert. When they

2495
02:19:34,719 --> 02:19:37,959
come to the ecumenical councils, they're represented as national bishops.

2496
02:19:38,280 --> 02:19:41,959
You even have the Autocephalish Church of Cyprus recognize that

2497
02:19:42,040 --> 02:19:44,399
the Council of Ephesus. So this makes perfect sense.

2498
02:19:45,559 --> 02:19:47,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. True, you could argue it's natural, but is it?

2499
02:19:48,280 --> 02:19:49,760
Is it what Christ intended?

2500
02:19:49,920 --> 02:19:52,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, because it's any I mean Christ guides the ecumenical

2501
02:19:52,520 --> 02:19:53,399
councils absolutely.

2502
02:19:54,799 --> 02:19:57,120
Speaker 29: Who's the one who's the voice of the Orthodox Church?

2503
02:19:58,239 --> 02:19:59,440
Who's the who's the authority?

2504
02:19:59,600 --> 02:20:00,600
Speaker 4: Christ and Holy Schort?

2505
02:20:02,120 --> 02:20:05,680
Speaker 2: Okay, well, how do I how do I find out

2506
02:20:05,719 --> 02:20:06,360
what Christ.

2507
02:20:06,200 --> 02:20:10,680
Speaker 29: Wants in the Orthodox I I agree with you with

2508
02:20:10,760 --> 02:20:12,639
the Pope, the Pope especially.

2509
02:20:12,399 --> 02:20:15,159
Speaker 4: This, Well, then if you agree, then the then the

2510
02:20:15,319 --> 02:20:18,319
then you can't ask me a Roman Catholic presupposition about

2511
02:20:18,360 --> 02:20:21,120
our church. So you're basically saying, where's the person in

2512
02:20:21,200 --> 02:20:23,600
the Orthodox Church? Is like the pope. There isn't one,

2513
02:20:24,680 --> 02:20:31,399
but it's it's the institution itself is is Uh, it's decentralized.

2514
02:20:30,879 --> 02:20:36,040
Speaker 29: Far greater that rather than having a decentralized.

2515
02:20:36,760 --> 02:20:38,920
Speaker 2: Institution like Orthodox Christianity.

2516
02:20:39,319 --> 02:20:41,879
Speaker 4: Well, that's not the Roman Catholic position because Vatican One

2517
02:20:41,920 --> 02:20:45,120
does not say that the Romancallic Church is a vaster church.

2518
02:20:45,239 --> 02:20:46,920
It puts everything on the guy in Rome.

2519
02:20:50,200 --> 02:20:52,360
Speaker 2: I look anyway, I just I want to thank you

2520
02:20:52,479 --> 02:20:53,280
and appreciate.

2521
02:20:53,319 --> 02:20:56,000
Speaker 4: I appreciate. Yeah, good questions. Yeah, I'm not not trying

2522
02:20:56,000 --> 02:20:56,959
to be combative. I'm just.

2523
02:20:58,840 --> 02:20:59,040
Speaker 2: To me.

2524
02:20:59,159 --> 02:21:02,920
Speaker 4: It seems like the questions presupposed, you know, like, well,

2525
02:21:02,959 --> 02:21:06,639
where's your Roman Catholic papal figure in your joy? We

2526
02:21:06,680 --> 02:21:08,760
don't want that, we don't need that. Hayes, what's up?

2527
02:21:10,079 --> 02:21:10,239
Speaker 8: Yeah.

2528
02:21:10,280 --> 02:21:13,239
Speaker 4: I think for Roman Catholics it's just like it's inconceivable.

2529
02:21:13,280 --> 02:21:16,239
They have a hard time believing that God could be

2530
02:21:16,399 --> 02:21:20,120
fully present in the local church, which is the Orthodox view.

2531
02:21:20,600 --> 02:21:24,120
I mean, Catholicity for us is not one guy over

2532
02:21:24,200 --> 02:21:26,719
in Rome or one place over in Rome, which doesn't

2533
02:21:26,760 --> 02:21:28,959
even make sense in terms of the Roman Catholic idea

2534
02:21:29,120 --> 02:21:33,280
of Catholicity. Catholicity is the fullness of the faith at

2535
02:21:33,399 --> 02:21:36,680
every local church. So there's no super bishop in Rome.

2536
02:21:36,959 --> 02:21:40,000
He doesn't have super sacraments and supergrace that the local

2537
02:21:40,120 --> 02:21:42,959
church doesn't have, and that blows the mind of Roman Catholics.

2538
02:21:45,319 --> 02:21:50,600
Got dropped off. Okay, I'm not taking orthodox FAQs. Please

2539
02:21:50,639 --> 02:21:54,559
don't ask me orthodox FAQ's, and I'm not going to

2540
02:21:54,639 --> 02:21:58,200
go back to people who are trolling. What's up Russian name?

2541
02:22:02,600 --> 02:22:03,680
Speaker 2: Hey, j can you hear me?

2542
02:22:06,440 --> 02:22:09,399
Speaker 46: I'm an author of Christian from the MOULDI station. Firstly,

2543
02:22:09,399 --> 02:22:11,280
I'd like to thank you for your work, and I

2544
02:22:11,639 --> 02:22:15,440
have a rather quick question regarding Islam. What is his

2545
02:22:15,559 --> 02:22:19,200
stand stands regarding the existence of Muhammad. Do you think

2546
02:22:19,280 --> 02:22:22,319
he was a pagan, northy, heretical or he didn't exist

2547
02:22:22,399 --> 02:22:22,680
at all?

2548
02:22:23,440 --> 02:22:23,719
Speaker 2: Thank you.

2549
02:22:24,920 --> 02:22:26,879
Speaker 4: I have not looked into this question that people have

2550
02:22:26,959 --> 02:22:30,639
been posing lately about his total non existence, so I

2551
02:22:30,680 --> 02:22:33,959
mean there could be something to that. So far, I've

2552
02:22:34,040 --> 02:22:36,399
just been operating under the assumption that he was a

2553
02:22:37,600 --> 02:22:45,479
pagan gnostic in Nestorian person. Gabriel, he's here to debate Christians.

2554
02:22:46,920 --> 02:22:56,680
Speaker 47: Jibril, Hello, yep, hey, hello Jamon. I am Muslim and

2555
02:22:57,399 --> 02:22:59,799
I have a questions. I know you make it this

2556
02:23:00,040 --> 02:23:05,920
sinction between nature and personhood. But my question is that

2557
02:23:06,799 --> 02:23:09,959
wouldn't you even if you distinguish the three persons you

2558
02:23:10,040 --> 02:23:11,280
used to be polytheistic?

2559
02:23:13,120 --> 02:23:16,159
Speaker 4: So says two, I mean, are the Asharis polytheistic or

2560
02:23:16,200 --> 02:23:17,360
the Salafi polytistic?

2561
02:23:18,159 --> 02:23:21,200
Speaker 2: Well, I just think that if you have three and

2562
02:23:21,479 --> 02:23:23,159
you as you're describing.

2563
02:23:22,799 --> 02:23:24,840
Speaker 4: Okay, well what about seven? What about ninety nine?

2564
02:23:27,520 --> 02:23:27,920
Speaker 2: That's this?

2565
02:23:28,120 --> 02:23:30,399
Speaker 47: Doesn't I don't know what this has to do with

2566
02:23:30,680 --> 02:23:32,520
your justification for the your.

2567
02:23:32,479 --> 02:23:35,239
Speaker 4: Position, because you have the same issue in Islam?

2568
02:23:35,399 --> 02:23:38,040
Speaker 2: So what do you mean, No, we don't we believe

2569
02:23:38,079 --> 02:23:38,639
in one God?

2570
02:23:39,399 --> 02:23:42,159
Speaker 4: What about the Asharis and the Autharis and the Salafis

2571
02:23:42,200 --> 02:23:44,079
and all the debates over the uncreated Kuran and the

2572
02:23:44,120 --> 02:23:46,520
seven attributes and the real distinctions?

2573
02:23:47,399 --> 02:23:49,079
Speaker 2: Okay, look I'm not here. Okay.

2574
02:23:49,239 --> 02:23:50,799
Speaker 4: Oh yeah. So in other words, I don't want to

2575
02:23:50,840 --> 02:23:52,799
deal with any problems in Islam. I only want to

2576
02:23:52,840 --> 02:23:54,799
act like those problems in the Trinity.

2577
02:23:54,920 --> 02:23:58,200
Speaker 2: I can no, I can argue against this, but you're

2578
02:23:58,239 --> 02:24:00,600
not making like you're not. Okay, let me tell you.

2579
02:24:01,079 --> 02:24:02,639
Speaker 4: Look, okay.

2580
02:24:06,120 --> 02:24:11,680
Speaker 2: To this of forgive me. Okay, so you believe, but

2581
02:24:11,799 --> 02:24:13,600
how does it look? Should I agree that there's debate

2582
02:24:13,760 --> 02:24:14,840
between in Islam.

2583
02:24:15,120 --> 02:24:17,440
Speaker 4: No, I'm not even pointing out that there's Look, there's

2584
02:24:17,440 --> 02:24:18,360
debate a much Christians.

2585
02:24:18,399 --> 02:24:18,559
Speaker 2: Sure.

2586
02:24:18,600 --> 02:24:20,799
Speaker 4: The argument is not that there's a debate. The argument

2587
02:24:20,920 --> 02:24:23,680
is that in your own position you have to account

2588
02:24:23,799 --> 02:24:26,799
for unity and multiplicity in a law. And so you're

2589
02:24:26,879 --> 02:24:29,559
just out of hands saying that my position is false

2590
02:24:29,639 --> 02:24:33,680
because of any multiplicity in God. So why do you

2591
02:24:33,840 --> 02:24:38,040
get a free pass on the shin and the right

2592
02:24:38,120 --> 02:24:39,159
hand and all this stuff.

2593
02:24:39,840 --> 02:24:43,559
Speaker 2: Okay, Well, because that's like morphic language.

2594
02:24:43,200 --> 02:24:46,159
Speaker 4: That's not what we don't it says too, because even

2595
02:24:46,200 --> 02:24:49,159
the Asharis who say that that's anthropomorphic language also believe

2596
02:24:49,159 --> 02:24:51,200
that there's a real distinction between the attributes.

2597
02:24:54,159 --> 02:24:55,959
Speaker 2: Do you do you have fun bullying?

2598
02:24:56,079 --> 02:24:59,399
Speaker 4: Like I'm trying to bullying you. I literally brought up

2599
02:24:59,440 --> 02:25:01,440
your aky to and you call that bullying. Don't play

2600
02:25:01,479 --> 02:25:03,280
the victim. You came here to debate, and you gotta

2601
02:25:03,280 --> 02:25:07,280
play victim. You guys are ridiculous. I have good contention, Okay,

2602
02:25:07,319 --> 02:25:10,319
I can prove to you. The Bible's cut upt. Yeah,

2603
02:25:10,399 --> 02:25:12,399
that script doesn't work when you come over here, dude,

2604
02:25:14,399 --> 02:25:17,920
Jennifer plays a victim. I'm here to debate. He says

2605
02:25:18,399 --> 02:25:22,760
his profile says here to debate Christians and Jews. He

2606
02:25:22,879 --> 02:25:26,719
comes on, plays victim and says, I'm bullying him. Give

2607
02:25:26,760 --> 02:25:28,799
me a break, dude, When he knows good and well,

2608
02:25:29,239 --> 02:25:32,520
it's a very It's a totally fair question of why

2609
02:25:32,639 --> 02:25:35,879
do I have to assume that multiplicity in my position

2610
02:25:36,559 --> 02:25:39,280
is some form of polytheism. But when you talk about

2611
02:25:39,280 --> 02:25:42,280
an uncreated Koran next to Allah, when you talk about

2612
02:25:42,319 --> 02:25:44,680
attributes of a law super added to his essence, if

2613
02:25:44,719 --> 02:25:47,319
you're in a Shari like then oh, that's a free

2614
02:25:47,399 --> 02:25:49,760
pass bullying me.

2615
02:25:56,600 --> 02:25:57,440
Speaker 48: Hey, can you hear me?

2616
02:25:57,600 --> 02:25:57,799
Speaker 4: Yep?

2617
02:25:59,040 --> 02:26:03,959
Speaker 48: Hey, So I am a Protestant. I hold to a

2618
02:26:04,200 --> 02:26:07,120
pre millennial view, and I wanted to ask you because

2619
02:26:07,120 --> 02:26:11,680
I know you don't about release in twenty verse three,

2620
02:26:12,559 --> 02:26:16,200
where Satan is taking to the bottomless pit and sealed

2621
02:26:16,440 --> 02:26:19,280
so that he should deceive the nations no more. If

2622
02:26:19,639 --> 02:26:22,760
the millennium is not a future event, what does it

2623
02:26:23,000 --> 02:26:25,520
mean that Satan is sealed that he can no longer

2624
02:26:25,840 --> 02:26:26,920
deceive nations?

2625
02:26:28,079 --> 02:26:32,559
Speaker 4: It's an ongoing, present reality because the millennium is identified

2626
02:26:32,639 --> 02:26:34,879
as the kingdom, and the kingdom is what Jesus set

2627
02:26:34,920 --> 02:26:36,879
up at his first advent. That's why this's not a

2628
02:26:36,959 --> 02:26:40,079
literal thousand year millennium anymore than God only owns the

2629
02:26:40,159 --> 02:26:42,959
cattle on one thousand hills and not the cattle on

2630
02:26:43,000 --> 02:26:44,000
the thousand and one hill.

2631
02:26:45,600 --> 02:26:49,079
Speaker 48: So I guess that would be assuming that the millennium

2632
02:26:49,440 --> 02:26:51,799
is like the start of the kingdom. In my view,

2633
02:26:52,000 --> 02:26:55,040
the kingdom started of course at the ascension, and then

2634
02:26:55,120 --> 02:26:58,879
the millennium is just a physical representation of that already.

2635
02:26:59,000 --> 02:27:02,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, that physical representation is the Church because it says

2636
02:27:02,600 --> 02:27:05,399
that it says that the first resurrection is those who

2637
02:27:05,479 --> 02:27:09,159
are brought into that. That first resurrection is what Jesus

2638
02:27:09,159 --> 02:27:11,639
talks about in John five when he says that you're

2639
02:27:11,760 --> 02:27:14,559
raised in the spirit, and then there's bodily resurrects. So

2640
02:27:14,600 --> 02:27:16,840
the first resurrection is baptism, is what I'm trying to say.

2641
02:27:18,479 --> 02:27:20,600
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, it makes sense.

2642
02:27:21,479 --> 02:27:22,760
Speaker 16: Do you mean if I ask another question?

2643
02:27:23,040 --> 02:27:23,239
Speaker 4: Sure?

2644
02:27:24,760 --> 02:27:24,799
Speaker 2: So.

2645
02:27:25,399 --> 02:27:25,760
Speaker 16: In the.

2646
02:27:27,319 --> 02:27:29,120
Speaker 33: It's called the Christmas Victor model.

2647
02:27:29,200 --> 02:27:34,840
Speaker 4: For Orthodox that's the closest approximation to what we would

2648
02:27:34,879 --> 02:27:37,719
say to a Protestant minded person. But there's much more

2649
02:27:37,799 --> 02:27:40,559
than that, because, for example, a Lutheran might be believing

2650
02:27:40,680 --> 02:27:42,920
christas Victor, but he believes that Christ was damned by

2651
02:27:42,959 --> 02:27:44,360
the Father or something that we don't believe any of

2652
02:27:44,399 --> 02:27:47,959
that nonsense for us christas victory, for us christas Victor

2653
02:27:48,040 --> 02:27:51,920
includes that he descended into Hades and is resurrected, and

2654
02:27:52,600 --> 02:27:55,159
and it sins to restore all human nature in the

2655
02:27:55,319 --> 02:27:58,079
entire universe. So there's a cosmic scope to it. There's

2656
02:27:58,120 --> 02:28:00,079
a heroin of Hades, and none of that is in

2657
02:28:00,120 --> 02:28:00,959
any Protestantism.

2658
02:28:02,479 --> 02:28:08,360
Speaker 49: Okay, So I guess why would he have to take

2659
02:28:08,399 --> 02:28:12,639
on human nature and experience death in order to defeat death?

2660
02:28:13,760 --> 02:28:16,559
Speaker 4: Because death is an angel, it's a demon, and it's

2661
02:28:16,600 --> 02:28:21,200
a kingdom known as Hades. And so when Adam decided

2662
02:28:21,280 --> 02:28:24,879
to leave God, he sort of covenanted with Satan and

2663
02:28:24,959 --> 02:28:27,319
became a member of Satan's kingdom. And so when he dies,

2664
02:28:27,399 --> 02:28:30,239
he goes down into Hades, which the Bible describes in many,

2665
02:28:30,239 --> 02:28:34,159
many passages throughout the Old Testament. Jesus then came, as

2666
02:28:34,200 --> 02:28:36,920
the New Testament says, to have the keys of death

2667
02:28:36,959 --> 02:28:40,159
and Hades to destroy that whole realm, in that whole kingdom.

2668
02:28:42,840 --> 02:28:46,719
Speaker 48: Okay, And so would that it had to be the

2669
02:28:46,840 --> 02:28:50,159
physical act of death in order to break the covenant

2670
02:28:50,239 --> 02:28:51,959
and take the keys from that.

2671
02:28:52,600 --> 02:28:56,920
Speaker 4: Well, it's when Adam sinned, it affected him spiritually and physically,

2672
02:28:57,360 --> 02:29:01,159
so the restoration required something spiritual and physical, hence the incarnation.

2673
02:29:02,559 --> 02:29:03,600
Speaker 2: Okay, that makes sense.

2674
02:29:04,520 --> 02:29:07,079
Speaker 48: Yeah, that's all I got for a day at I've

2675
02:29:07,120 --> 02:29:08,239
been looking into Orthodoxy.

2676
02:29:08,360 --> 02:29:11,399
Speaker 4: Thanks to you so taking up absolutely, Thank you, Jennifer.

2677
02:29:11,440 --> 02:29:14,520
Appreciate those questions. Those are good questions. Yeah. I remember

2678
02:29:15,159 --> 02:29:18,479
working through primasm myself a long time ago. So I

2679
02:29:18,559 --> 02:29:21,360
understand where you're at a baris.

2680
02:29:28,799 --> 02:29:34,120
Speaker 2: Uh hello, hey, hey, I So I had a question.

2681
02:29:35,200 --> 02:29:37,239
I don't want to misrepresent you anything, but.

2682
02:29:39,079 --> 02:29:42,280
Speaker 50: Do you believe that like in the literal story about

2683
02:29:42,319 --> 02:29:46,040
them an eve like in the garden, and then it's

2684
02:29:46,120 --> 02:29:46,559
not like.

2685
02:29:49,159 --> 02:29:50,280
Speaker 2: Not hypercal but.

2686
02:29:51,840 --> 02:29:56,200
Speaker 4: Theoretical or metaphorical agorical. Yes, I believe it's literal.

2687
02:29:56,479 --> 02:30:01,239
Speaker 2: Yes, thank you you. Oh, I see. How do you

2688
02:30:01,319 --> 02:30:02,520
rectify things like.

2689
02:30:04,280 --> 02:30:09,600
Speaker 50: Like Neanderthal evidence of us having not I'm not I don't.

2690
02:30:09,399 --> 02:30:09,799
Speaker 2: Really want to.

2691
02:30:09,840 --> 02:30:13,200
Speaker 4: I don't believe in evidence because multiple examples have been

2692
02:30:13,239 --> 02:30:14,840
exposed to be notorious frauds.

2693
02:30:17,040 --> 02:30:17,799
Speaker 2: Can you name a few?

2694
02:30:18,399 --> 02:30:22,959
Speaker 4: Pelt down man, Nebraska man, right right?

2695
02:30:24,360 --> 02:30:26,959
Speaker 50: Do you are you familiar with the genetic evidence that

2696
02:30:27,040 --> 02:30:33,280
we have for Denis Evans, Neanderthals, and modern day populations

2697
02:30:33,440 --> 02:30:38,239
mostly focused in Southeast Asia, South America and Europe exclusively.

2698
02:30:38,559 --> 02:30:42,639
Speaker 4: How would genetic evidence prove uh, Neanderthals in Southeast Asia?

2699
02:30:44,440 --> 02:30:48,959
Speaker 50: Well, Neanderthal, it would Neanderthals in in Western Europe?

2700
02:30:49,479 --> 02:30:53,479
Speaker 4: But okay, would prove how a genetic How a genetic

2701
02:30:53,559 --> 02:30:56,399
information which is like uh, you know, code and information

2702
02:30:56,559 --> 02:31:00,959
for the human species or the animal species. How that proved? Cavemen?

2703
02:31:02,879 --> 02:31:05,879
Speaker 50: Well, I don't necessarily use the term cave man, but

2704
02:31:06,040 --> 02:31:09,440
it does. It does paint a picture that there is

2705
02:31:10,159 --> 02:31:13,760
separation in genetics. I mean, we obviously today everybody looks

2706
02:31:13,799 --> 02:31:14,120
the same.

2707
02:31:15,879 --> 02:31:17,200
Speaker 9: We've we've a.

2708
02:31:17,239 --> 02:31:20,479
Speaker 4: Lot of differents, a lot of different models could explain

2709
02:31:20,520 --> 02:31:23,680
why people look different. How does that prove? Gotic cavemen?

2710
02:31:24,559 --> 02:31:26,840
Speaker 2: Can you? Can you list a model that explains why

2711
02:31:26,879 --> 02:31:27,639
people look different?

2712
02:31:27,840 --> 02:31:28,000
Speaker 8: Yeah?

2713
02:31:28,120 --> 02:31:28,399
Speaker 4: Creation?

2714
02:31:30,600 --> 02:31:30,920
Speaker 2: Okay?

2715
02:31:31,040 --> 02:31:33,159
Speaker 50: Well, I mean to start off, I mean I am

2716
02:31:33,200 --> 02:31:35,639
a Christian, but I don't believe that science and and

2717
02:31:35,760 --> 02:31:38,959
the creation stories have to be mutually exclusive. I believe

2718
02:31:39,000 --> 02:31:43,280
that God the evolution can be guided by divine hand.

2719
02:31:44,600 --> 02:31:49,159
Speaker 4: Okay, so you would be ultimately a heretic because of

2720
02:31:49,479 --> 02:31:53,000
Roman's eight, which says that death in all forms enters

2721
02:31:53,040 --> 02:31:55,399
in through the sin of Adam. So how is there

2722
02:31:55,479 --> 02:31:57,559
millions of years of dead cavemen before Adam?

2723
02:31:58,719 --> 02:32:02,319
Speaker 51: Well, see, that's my biggest she was that if let's say, hypothetically,

2724
02:32:02,360 --> 02:32:05,840
if Adam and Eve were the first Homo sapiens, then

2725
02:32:06,079 --> 02:32:09,200
what would that say about man or tas before them

2726
02:32:09,479 --> 02:32:10,719
or an ad mixture?

2727
02:32:10,799 --> 02:32:11,680
Speaker 2: Did they not have a soul?

2728
02:32:11,760 --> 02:32:13,319
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, let me, let's just put it this way.

2729
02:32:13,360 --> 02:32:15,479
Does Jesus talk in the Gospels as if Adam and

2730
02:32:15,520 --> 02:32:16,600
Eve were historical people?

2731
02:32:18,319 --> 02:32:19,760
Speaker 15: Yes, sir, there you go.

2732
02:32:20,479 --> 02:32:21,639
Speaker 4: So what does that tell you?

2733
02:32:23,440 --> 02:32:26,399
Speaker 50: Well, I mean, I I think that some things can

2734
02:32:26,479 --> 02:32:29,440
be out of oracle and they don't necessarily like.

2735
02:32:29,520 --> 02:32:32,479
Speaker 4: All right, So yeah, so Jesus apparently wasn't aware of

2736
02:32:32,600 --> 02:32:37,440
the allegories. And you know better than Jesus. But you

2737
02:32:37,639 --> 02:32:41,239
just you just said that he was not allegorizing because

2738
02:32:41,239 --> 02:32:42,600
he said that they were historical people.

2739
02:32:42,760 --> 02:32:46,879
Speaker 2: You just said that, yes, sir, But I think that

2740
02:32:49,959 --> 02:32:52,319
I don't. I don't believe that it has to be.

2741
02:32:54,200 --> 02:32:55,680
I think if I were to.

2742
02:32:55,719 --> 02:32:58,879
Speaker 4: Tell a just be honest, Jesus, just be honest, Jesus

2743
02:32:58,920 --> 02:32:59,959
is wrong. Is that your position?

2744
02:33:02,079 --> 02:33:03,399
Speaker 2: No, sir, I don't believe he's wrong.

2745
02:33:04,079 --> 02:33:06,559
Speaker 4: Well, but you just said, you just said that they're

2746
02:33:06,600 --> 02:33:08,520
not historical people, and Jesus said they were.

2747
02:33:09,639 --> 02:33:13,719
Speaker 50: Well, let's say, let's say hypothetically that Jesus was speaking

2748
02:33:13,879 --> 02:33:16,600
allegorical but didn't include.

2749
02:33:16,159 --> 02:33:18,520
Speaker 2: That or didn't tell people that that. He didn't really

2750
02:33:18,559 --> 02:33:20,200
have a way of going about explaining.

2751
02:33:20,879 --> 02:33:25,799
Speaker 4: Okay, and Denise Evans, do you think do you think

2752
02:33:25,959 --> 02:33:29,479
Romans eight is hypothetical? And Paul says that death entered

2753
02:33:29,479 --> 02:33:34,360
through Adam? All right, excuse me as aligorical.

2754
02:33:36,000 --> 02:33:39,000
Speaker 50: No, but I also think that they could that could

2755
02:33:39,040 --> 02:33:41,319
be true even with an evolutionary model.

2756
02:33:43,760 --> 02:33:47,879
Speaker 4: If we So, if death enters through Adam, then how

2757
02:33:48,000 --> 02:33:51,079
is it allegorically the case in the evolutionary theistic model.

2758
02:33:51,079 --> 02:33:53,360
Speaker 2: Ends on what you would consider Adam.

2759
02:33:53,120 --> 02:33:53,680
Speaker 52: I suppose.

2760
02:33:55,239 --> 02:33:58,520
Speaker 4: But what I'm asking is in that in in Romans,

2761
02:33:58,879 --> 02:34:01,479
Paul is clearly talking about Adam, the first Adam, the

2762
02:34:01,520 --> 02:34:04,520
guy in Genesis who introduced his death. And then he

2763
02:34:04,600 --> 02:34:07,440
says that Christ is the second atom. So is Christ's

2764
02:34:07,440 --> 02:34:15,079
position as the second atom also an allegory? So now

2765
02:34:15,120 --> 02:34:19,760
you're well that yes, so Christology goes down down the tube. Shane,

2766
02:34:19,840 --> 02:34:28,559
what's up? Conkf be sure to call in. Hey, what's up?

2767
02:34:28,639 --> 02:34:32,159
Speaker 2: Man's good to go? Cool.

2768
02:34:32,879 --> 02:34:36,040
Speaker 53: So I've got an argument that I just heard from

2769
02:34:36,079 --> 02:34:38,120
Jimmy Aikin a couple of weeks ago.

2770
02:34:38,200 --> 02:34:39,760
Speaker 2: I didn't. I didn't know if you've heard it or not.

2771
02:34:39,879 --> 02:34:41,719
Speaker 4: The same Jimmy Aikin who says that Arius and the

2772
02:34:41,799 --> 02:34:42,879
Storious we're not heretics.

2773
02:34:44,760 --> 02:34:48,319
Speaker 2: Maybe, but did you know he says that, No, I didn't.

2774
02:34:48,399 --> 02:34:50,600
I'd have to check that out. What what did you say?

2775
02:34:50,639 --> 02:34:50,920
He said?

2776
02:34:51,559 --> 02:34:53,879
Speaker 4: He says, Arius and Thestorius we're not heretics.

2777
02:34:54,559 --> 02:34:56,559
Speaker 2: Arius and the stories. I have to I have to

2778
02:34:56,639 --> 02:34:57,120
look into that.

2779
02:34:57,840 --> 02:35:01,239
Speaker 53: But no, this is in regards to the premiacy of Peter.

2780
02:35:01,920 --> 02:35:04,520
So from my understanding, you know, the Orthodox Church of

2781
02:35:04,600 --> 02:35:08,600
firms that there was a you know, a premisey to

2782
02:35:08,799 --> 02:35:12,159
the Patriot Office. And Jimmy Aikin kind of makes an

2783
02:35:12,200 --> 02:35:15,280
argument when it comes to defending the papacy that basically goes,

2784
02:35:15,920 --> 02:35:18,680
you know, who is more likely to misunderstand the function

2785
02:35:18,799 --> 02:35:21,520
of something, the person who possesses it or the people

2786
02:35:21,559 --> 02:35:21,959
who did not.

2787
02:35:23,639 --> 02:35:26,239
Speaker 4: And this is a dumb argument. Like so, in other words,

2788
02:35:26,760 --> 02:35:30,120
we have to listen to you guys, even if you

2789
02:35:30,239 --> 02:35:33,159
contradict or appear to contradict because you have the office.

2790
02:35:33,239 --> 02:35:36,000
But that's the thing in question. So the question is

2791
02:35:36,079 --> 02:35:38,159
not primacy of Peter, but what does it mean?

2792
02:35:38,840 --> 02:35:40,520
Speaker 2: Right exactly? And that's what I mean.

2793
02:35:40,719 --> 02:35:43,920
Speaker 53: His argument is basically, who's more likely to misunderstand what

2794
02:35:44,040 --> 02:35:47,319
it means? You know, whoever possesses it or whoever doesn't.

2795
02:35:47,559 --> 02:35:50,280
Speaker 4: But the thing in question is what is the meaning

2796
02:35:50,360 --> 02:35:52,479
of what you possess? Not do you possess it? So

2797
02:35:52,559 --> 02:35:56,399
this is trading on an ambiguity of terminology, right well, I.

2798
02:35:56,440 --> 02:36:00,879
Speaker 53: Think even if you accept, you know, this like to

2799
02:36:01,079 --> 02:36:03,399
take out the Vatican one understanding and I understand you

2800
02:36:03,479 --> 02:36:05,760
can't do that to the full extent, but I just

2801
02:36:05,840 --> 02:36:07,399
mean just for those so you can't do that at all?

2802
02:36:07,520 --> 02:36:09,000
Speaker 4: What do you mean? Right well?

2803
02:36:09,239 --> 02:36:12,559
Speaker 53: I'm saying, like, if we just assume this premiscy, like,

2804
02:36:12,760 --> 02:36:16,680
let's say we accept the Orthodox view of you know

2805
02:36:16,799 --> 02:36:18,200
what the premiacy of Peter is?

2806
02:36:18,959 --> 02:36:20,680
Speaker 2: You know, I think you could apply.

2807
02:36:20,479 --> 02:36:20,760
Speaker 9: It to that.

2808
02:36:23,479 --> 02:36:25,440
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know what that's supposed to mean.

2809
02:36:25,520 --> 02:36:28,440
But do you are you aware of the Chiad document,

2810
02:36:28,479 --> 02:36:32,840
the Alexandria document. No, okay, how come? I'm not trying

2811
02:36:32,840 --> 02:36:34,360
to be rude to you, like Roman Catholics have not

2812
02:36:34,399 --> 02:36:36,799
read their own documents. I don't understanding because these documents

2813
02:36:36,840 --> 02:36:39,520
say that the Orthodox are basically correct and that it

2814
02:36:39,639 --> 02:36:42,440
evolved and that the Roman bishop didn't have your universal

2815
02:36:42,799 --> 02:36:46,000
jurisdiction in the first millennium. That's a Chad paragraph nineteen.

2816
02:36:46,159 --> 02:36:48,399
I got it on the screen right right, Because so

2817
02:36:48,479 --> 02:36:50,479
how is Roman how's Vatican one trip? That's trip?

2818
02:36:51,799 --> 02:36:55,120
Speaker 53: Well, I mean that's where you know, doctrinal and development

2819
02:36:55,159 --> 02:36:55,719
comes into play.

2820
02:36:55,719 --> 02:36:58,719
Speaker 4: And I know, well, but the Vatican One, the Vatican

2821
02:36:58,760 --> 02:37:00,280
One says that it was always the case. So how

2822
02:37:00,360 --> 02:37:01,159
is it now a development?

2823
02:37:02,799 --> 02:37:04,920
Speaker 53: Well, from my understanding, and you know, I don't have

2824
02:37:05,000 --> 02:37:06,520
the text in front of me, and I'm definitely not

2825
02:37:06,600 --> 02:37:10,200
an expert, but from my understanding, the Vatican One understanding

2826
02:37:10,399 --> 02:37:13,280
is that there is you know, this development.

2827
02:37:13,440 --> 02:37:13,879
Speaker 2: No, it's not.

2828
02:37:14,079 --> 02:37:15,639
Speaker 4: It doesn't you know. It says that it was always

2829
02:37:15,719 --> 02:37:18,200
understood from the earliest days that that Peter had this role.

2830
02:37:18,559 --> 02:37:26,280
Does not say anything about development. Development is what Newman

2831
02:37:26,440 --> 02:37:28,959
said To try to defend it to the people who said,

2832
02:37:29,239 --> 02:37:31,760
what about all the counter examples in the first thousand years?

2833
02:37:32,079 --> 02:37:34,000
Newman says that, yeah, it's the thing that it's a

2834
02:37:34,040 --> 02:37:37,079
seed that develops into a tree. Yeah, okay, so it

2835
02:37:37,159 --> 02:37:39,319
can't be it can't be something that was always there,

2836
02:37:39,399 --> 02:37:41,840
clear and present, as Vatican won in the other thirteen say,

2837
02:37:42,079 --> 02:37:43,799
and something that was not clear and developed. Those are

2838
02:37:43,879 --> 02:37:45,040
mutually exclusive claims.

2839
02:37:45,760 --> 02:37:45,959
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2840
02:37:48,319 --> 02:37:50,639
Speaker 4: And by the way, the I mean again eighty and

2841
02:37:51,040 --> 02:37:53,399
Alexandria document from the Vatican admitted developed.

2842
02:37:54,319 --> 02:37:56,440
Speaker 2: Right. But I'm sure there's a I'm sure there's a

2843
02:37:56,479 --> 02:37:57,440
Catholic understanding.

2844
02:37:57,559 --> 02:37:57,680
Speaker 45: You know.

2845
02:37:57,920 --> 02:37:59,719
Speaker 4: The Catholic understanding is that I don't care what she

2846
02:37:59,840 --> 02:38:02,479
Ate and Alexander say because they're not infallible and not

2847
02:38:02,559 --> 02:38:05,440
binding because anytimes it's been a problem, it's not binding.

2848
02:38:06,319 --> 02:38:10,000
Speaker 2: Right. But getting back to the question, or do you

2849
02:38:10,079 --> 02:38:12,319
think you know it's just not a legitimate.

2850
02:38:12,600 --> 02:38:16,159
Speaker 4: It's a it's trading on ambiguity. So the it's like

2851
02:38:16,559 --> 02:38:20,799
using ambiguity in terms to get you to admit that, well,

2852
02:38:20,840 --> 02:38:23,879
if there was a premiacy, therefore only Rome would have

2853
02:38:23,920 --> 02:38:28,159
perfectly understood it. So it's a classic car salesman bait

2854
02:38:28,200 --> 02:38:32,799
and switch pitch from the Roman Catholics. Uh, cost you,

2855
02:38:33,520 --> 02:38:37,520
I'm not doing FAQs, but good question, appreciate it. So

2856
02:38:37,639 --> 02:38:40,600
the Roman Catholics have been very civil tonight. I enjoy

2857
02:38:40,840 --> 02:38:43,959
that's been enjoyable. They've been the most enjoyable tonight. The

2858
02:38:44,079 --> 02:38:47,719
Muslims and the Mormons and the everybody's been crazy. Cost you.

2859
02:38:49,639 --> 02:38:50,760
Speaker 2: Hello, OJ, how do you do?

2860
02:38:51,639 --> 02:38:52,040
Speaker 4: What's up?

2861
02:38:52,120 --> 02:38:55,840
Speaker 2: Man? What's up? I got a question about TAG.

2862
02:38:57,879 --> 02:39:00,920
Speaker 31: Let's say that I just give up any idea about

2863
02:39:02,399 --> 02:39:04,719
you know, order in the universe.

2864
02:39:08,879 --> 02:39:11,440
Speaker 2: I don't need TAG to justify it. Therefore, and I

2865
02:39:11,719 --> 02:39:18,399
just based my worldview on observation and statistics. You know,

2866
02:39:18,680 --> 02:39:21,399
the statistics prevent against TAG.

2867
02:39:21,719 --> 02:39:25,479
Speaker 4: Statistics would presuppose order, so that wouldn't make any sense.

2868
02:39:27,040 --> 02:39:33,920
Speaker 2: Hm hmm. I see what you're saying. I figured you

2869
02:39:33,959 --> 02:39:34,559
were going to say that.

2870
02:39:34,639 --> 02:39:38,520
Speaker 39: But I feel like statistics, okay, they use numbers, but

2871
02:39:38,719 --> 02:39:39,520
they're also.

2872
02:39:41,280 --> 02:39:43,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's the argument.

2873
02:39:43,200 --> 02:39:47,159
Speaker 4: I guess like, yeah, statistics requires numbers.

2874
02:39:47,440 --> 02:39:48,879
Speaker 2: You can have numbers without order.

2875
02:39:49,680 --> 02:39:55,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean order in the universe is necessary to

2876
02:39:55,120 --> 02:39:58,920
have these invariant, immaterial concepts or principles like the number seven,

2877
02:39:59,000 --> 02:39:59,600
the number ten.

2878
02:39:59,760 --> 02:39:59,879
Speaker 7: Ye.

2879
02:40:00,559 --> 02:40:04,159
Speaker 2: I don't think. I don't saying it's without immaterial. I

2880
02:40:04,239 --> 02:40:08,840
mean conceptual concepts might in the human mind.

2881
02:40:09,840 --> 02:40:13,440
Speaker 4: Well, something conceptual by definition is abstract, is not material,

2882
02:40:14,040 --> 02:40:15,879
So if you want to say that concepts are matter,

2883
02:40:16,000 --> 02:40:17,000
that's even worse position.

2884
02:40:18,360 --> 02:40:21,719
Speaker 41: No, No, I'm saying there may be immaterial things in

2885
02:40:22,520 --> 02:40:24,280
an unordered, grandom universe.

2886
02:40:25,479 --> 02:40:28,200
Speaker 4: Well, then you wouldn't be able to make sentences, because

2887
02:40:28,239 --> 02:40:30,959
sentences require a universe where you can predicate and give

2888
02:40:31,040 --> 02:40:33,879
meaning to objects. That there's a law of identity. How

2889
02:40:34,000 --> 02:40:36,559
is the law of identity possible if there's no order

2890
02:40:36,600 --> 02:40:37,159
in the universe.

2891
02:40:40,200 --> 02:40:43,000
Speaker 2: Hmmm, yeah, good points.

2892
02:40:43,120 --> 02:40:50,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, linguistic Linguistic philosophy, I'm saying presupposes the ability to predicate,

2893
02:40:51,040 --> 02:40:53,040
on the basis of the law of identity, that you

2894
02:40:53,079 --> 02:40:56,239
can pick out one object as distinct from other objects.

2895
02:40:59,559 --> 02:41:01,280
John Helvin's words, Here we go.

2896
02:41:05,559 --> 02:41:06,120
Speaker 8: Can you hear me?

2897
02:41:06,239 --> 02:41:08,920
Speaker 2: Jay? Yep, my man, my man. Okay.

2898
02:41:10,239 --> 02:41:15,239
Speaker 54: One of my friends recently has been turning towards Eastern Orthodoxy.

2899
02:41:15,280 --> 02:41:17,600
Speaker 2: God bless his soul. Shout out to Chris, God bless him.

2900
02:41:18,360 --> 02:41:23,920
Speaker 54: But he shot me a picture of the Catechumen it

2901
02:41:24,600 --> 02:41:27,879
and sort of if there are any heresies that one holds,

2902
02:41:28,159 --> 02:41:31,319
they need to be renounced, denounce whatever you may say

2903
02:41:31,319 --> 02:41:34,280
about it. And I saw total depravity is up there,

2904
02:41:34,920 --> 02:41:39,200
and I find myself to be in the reformed tradition,

2905
02:41:39,760 --> 02:41:42,239
and I've been looking at total depravity a lot, so

2906
02:41:42,280 --> 02:41:44,799
I wanted to hear from your perspective why it is

2907
02:41:44,920 --> 02:41:48,879
that total depravity is a heresy and then sort of

2908
02:41:48,959 --> 02:41:51,520
give you a little pushback if I can not too

2909
02:41:51,559 --> 02:41:53,520
affirm necessary in my case, but I do want.

2910
02:41:53,440 --> 02:41:54,319
Speaker 2: To hear what you have to say.

2911
02:41:55,440 --> 02:41:59,959
Speaker 4: Well, it's heresy from the outset, because typically Calvinists or whoever,

2912
02:42:00,040 --> 02:42:01,559
or when they try to explain this, they end up

2913
02:42:01,600 --> 02:42:05,000
saying that nature is someone inherently evil. God's the creator

2914
02:42:05,079 --> 02:42:07,760
of everything that exists, and he can't create evil. In fact,

2915
02:42:07,799 --> 02:42:10,600
Scripture says he's not the author of evil. So are

2916
02:42:10,639 --> 02:42:13,600
you a Manichean do you think that God creates evil things?

2917
02:42:14,159 --> 02:42:16,040
Or are you a Christian? And that everything that he

2918
02:42:16,200 --> 02:42:17,799
created in Genesis one is good?

2919
02:42:19,559 --> 02:42:23,399
Speaker 2: Absolutely believe that everything that he created is good. I

2920
02:42:23,479 --> 02:42:25,360
believe absolutely everything he created is good.

2921
02:42:25,479 --> 02:42:28,000
Speaker 4: Okay, so then your nature, your nature can't be evil.

2922
02:42:28,760 --> 02:42:31,799
Speaker 54: Yeah, I believe that your nature cannot be evil. However,

2923
02:42:32,520 --> 02:42:35,000
the both of us would I think to come to

2924
02:42:35,159 --> 02:42:37,239
some sort of agreement, Probably not in terms.

2925
02:42:37,079 --> 02:42:40,600
Speaker 2: Of linguistics, but in terms of when Adam and Eve

2926
02:42:41,120 --> 02:42:41,920
ate the fruit.

2927
02:42:42,440 --> 02:42:44,760
Speaker 54: God said that the day you eat it, you shall

2928
02:42:44,840 --> 02:42:45,520
surely die.

2929
02:42:45,719 --> 02:42:48,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, spiritual death. That doesn't mean that doesn't mean that

2930
02:42:48,319 --> 02:42:49,520
their human nature.

2931
02:42:50,159 --> 02:42:52,440
Speaker 54: I'm not going with I'm not trying to necessarily say

2932
02:42:52,559 --> 02:42:55,639
hold a totally property view, but I'm just simply trying

2933
02:42:55,680 --> 02:43:00,520
to investigate, how does etern orthodoxy under stay in that

2934
02:43:00,799 --> 02:43:03,399
death and what does it do? What are the what

2935
02:43:03,479 --> 02:43:04,479
are the ramifications?

2936
02:43:04,879 --> 02:43:10,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, so, so it means the loss of divine life,

2937
02:43:10,799 --> 02:43:13,079
the life of the Holy Spirit. So the uncreated grace

2938
02:43:13,159 --> 02:43:17,360
of God is lost in Adam's fall, and Adam is

2939
02:43:17,440 --> 02:43:20,440
reduced to a mortal state. So he's mortal, but his

2940
02:43:20,600 --> 02:43:23,120
nature is still good, So he still has human will,

2941
02:43:23,319 --> 02:43:25,639
he still has human nature, human energy, all of those

2942
02:43:25,840 --> 02:43:28,600
things that we call faculties of human nature. And so

2943
02:43:28,680 --> 02:43:31,520
when Christ assumes human nature, that's what he assumes in

2944
02:43:31,680 --> 02:43:34,600
order to heal it, to resurrect it, to deify it.

2945
02:43:35,040 --> 02:43:38,040
So it's never the case that the nature itself becomes evil,

2946
02:43:38,159 --> 02:43:40,440
or that he's always sinning, or that there's such a

2947
02:43:40,520 --> 02:43:42,879
thing as a state of sin. All of those are

2948
02:43:43,000 --> 02:43:46,760
Calvinist Lutheran type positions which are patently false.

2949
02:43:48,479 --> 02:43:50,719
Speaker 2: All right, now, let me ask a weird question. But

2950
02:43:51,760 --> 02:43:57,079
so if it's perhaps for any reason, I.

2951
02:43:57,079 --> 02:43:58,520
Speaker 54: Don't I don't know how to I don't know how

2952
02:43:58,559 --> 02:44:00,799
to phrase this because I've been I've been hetruggling recently

2953
02:44:00,959 --> 02:44:03,959
with the fact that Calvin didn't hold to the l

2954
02:44:04,360 --> 02:44:08,639
Most Calvinists in general do not hold. They don't sound

2955
02:44:08,719 --> 02:44:12,239
like Calvin when he speaks about the atonement. Calvin's language

2956
02:44:12,360 --> 02:44:18,079
is very universal because one cannot hold to a true perseverance,

2957
02:44:18,159 --> 02:44:20,200
or one cannot hold that your salvation would.

2958
02:44:19,959 --> 02:44:21,639
Speaker 2: Truly be secure if you do not believe that.

2959
02:44:21,680 --> 02:44:24,840
Speaker 54: Jesus Christ died for the sins of the entire world.

2960
02:44:24,920 --> 02:44:28,920
So Calvin holds that without any debate, and in fact

2961
02:44:29,000 --> 02:44:32,920
he says with with with a lot of fervor, when

2962
02:44:32,959 --> 02:44:35,879
you look at the predestination, what is it? The eternal

2963
02:44:35,920 --> 02:44:38,120
predestination of God? I think that's the name of the book.

2964
02:44:39,840 --> 02:44:42,680
Speaker 55: He says there when he's when he's debating with Georgia's

2965
02:44:43,559 --> 02:44:45,520
that he says that there are some there are some

2966
02:44:45,680 --> 02:44:50,239
people who say that, yes, Jesus died for the sins.

2967
02:44:51,479 --> 02:44:52,239
Speaker 2: Let me rephrase that.

2968
02:44:53,159 --> 02:44:55,120
Speaker 4: Look, I'm not trying. I'm not trying to. I'm not

2969
02:44:55,200 --> 02:44:56,760
We don't have the time right now to go through

2970
02:44:56,840 --> 02:45:01,000
all the Tulip. I've got multiple talks where I walk

2971
02:45:01,120 --> 02:45:02,639
through all of Calvinism.

2972
02:45:03,200 --> 02:45:03,319
Speaker 56: Uh.

2973
02:45:03,440 --> 02:45:04,879
Speaker 4: You can go to the talk that I did with

2974
02:45:05,120 --> 02:45:07,719
Cootel Church of the Eternal Logos and I go through

2975
02:45:07,760 --> 02:45:09,879
all of Tulip. You can go to my clips channel

2976
02:45:10,159 --> 02:45:12,200
and I have two talks going all the way through Tulip.

2977
02:45:12,520 --> 02:45:13,879
I don't have the time right now to go through

2978
02:45:13,879 --> 02:45:17,639
all of Tulip, but those talks will answer in detail, Uh,

2979
02:45:17,760 --> 02:45:22,000
the issues that you have today. I appreciate the question.

2980
02:45:22,200 --> 02:45:24,360
I'm not trying to be rude to you, but just

2981
02:45:24,440 --> 02:45:26,920
can't do the whole calvin debate right now. Knocta, what's up?

2982
02:45:30,600 --> 02:45:43,200
Knockta gonna, I'm mute, I'm mute.

2983
02:45:44,840 --> 02:45:47,520
Speaker 2: I'm here. My apologies for that. Always looking for the microphone,

2984
02:45:47,600 --> 02:45:48,079
the browser.

2985
02:45:48,399 --> 02:45:48,879
Speaker 4: It's all good.

2986
02:45:48,920 --> 02:45:53,200
Speaker 2: What's up, man, It's a nice being here.

2987
02:45:53,239 --> 02:45:54,879
Speaker 38: I've been listening to you for a couple of months,

2988
02:45:54,959 --> 02:45:58,440
to Sam watching a light you two. I'm born and

2989
02:45:58,600 --> 02:46:02,879
raised Protestant. I'm leaving Porto Rico. So the knowledge or

2990
02:46:03,200 --> 02:46:06,840
how the Gospel and the work got here to my

2991
02:46:07,000 --> 02:46:11,600
knowledge was around the nineties sixteen or nineteen hundred and sixteen,

2992
02:46:12,159 --> 02:46:15,520
when that I was a wave of.

2993
02:46:17,120 --> 02:46:21,079
Speaker 2: The Word of God. And I'm sorry for my English,

2994
02:46:21,120 --> 02:46:23,600
I'm not too well spoken on that.

2995
02:46:24,399 --> 02:46:28,200
Speaker 38: But basically i've been or I was because I was

2996
02:46:28,280 --> 02:46:30,399
out of the church for like eight nine years.

2997
02:46:30,440 --> 02:46:33,120
Speaker 2: I came back looking for knowledge.

2998
02:46:33,239 --> 02:46:37,079
Speaker 38: The true root of what is following Christ, and I've

2999
02:46:37,120 --> 02:46:43,200
been closer to orthodoxy. Actually, I'm gonna ask a simple question. Basically,

3000
02:46:43,760 --> 02:46:46,920
with everything that I went through, I sing things in

3001
02:46:48,360 --> 02:46:53,799
Protestant churches, God working through it, I live freeing people

3002
02:46:53,879 --> 02:46:57,879
of diseases, demons, and all that I've been seen in.

3003
02:46:57,959 --> 02:47:02,079
Speaker 2: Life of people improved through this is i'd say, way

3004
02:47:02,159 --> 02:47:05,559
of saying that Jesus Christ die for us. And basically

3005
02:47:05,639 --> 02:47:07,079
the whole idea is the same.

3006
02:47:07,879 --> 02:47:11,360
Speaker 38: We split up on incorrect me if I'm wrong, traditions

3007
02:47:11,440 --> 02:47:15,399
and how from the bottom up it goes, but the

3008
02:47:15,520 --> 02:47:17,719
idea is the same. So if I'm seeing all of

3009
02:47:17,799 --> 02:47:21,239
that God working through people through my mom, if I'm

3010
02:47:21,239 --> 02:47:25,639
gonna and everything of that, how can I put those

3011
02:47:25,879 --> 02:47:26,840
two things together?

3012
02:47:26,959 --> 02:47:29,399
Speaker 4: I mean, I appreciate the question. I mean there's no

3013
02:47:30,159 --> 02:47:33,840
I mean, everybody could say that God is working through

3014
02:47:33,879 --> 02:47:37,319
people and God is doing things for people. But obviously,

3015
02:47:37,520 --> 02:47:40,120
since everyone can say that that can't be the thing

3016
02:47:40,719 --> 02:47:43,479
that shows us which is the true church, because everybody

3017
02:47:43,520 --> 02:47:45,840
will claim that or everybody will say that. So the

3018
02:47:45,920 --> 02:47:49,760
only way to solve this is to actually go into

3019
02:47:49,799 --> 02:47:59,360
the theological differences and historical differences. Journalist, you got an

3020
02:47:59,360 --> 02:48:06,920
immute journalist, Connor, do you want to talk?

3021
02:48:10,040 --> 02:48:10,319
Speaker 2: You have to?

3022
02:48:10,399 --> 02:48:10,799
Speaker 8: I mute.

3023
02:48:12,120 --> 02:48:20,479
Speaker 4: I dropped off cunt opinions. I feel like I'm setting

3024
02:48:20,559 --> 02:48:24,920
myself up by going to cunt opinions for a troll,

3025
02:48:25,159 --> 02:48:31,879
So I'm guilty if I get trolled. Go ahead, I mute.

3026
02:48:37,120 --> 02:48:39,000
You have to ummute. Why are you raising your hand.

3027
02:48:43,639 --> 02:48:44,399
Speaker 2: Speaking to Meg?

3028
02:48:45,319 --> 02:48:49,719
Speaker 12: Yep, sort of literally just joined us to be like

3029
02:48:50,479 --> 02:48:51,520
seven seconds ago.

3030
02:48:52,200 --> 02:48:53,079
Speaker 4: Okay, what's on your mind?

3031
02:48:54,959 --> 02:49:00,200
Speaker 12: I shoined it because it's is to be Aslam, Atheism, controlimus,

3032
02:49:00,280 --> 02:49:01,920
take one, et cetera, et cetera.

3033
02:49:02,159 --> 02:49:03,040
Speaker 4: Sure, what's on your man?

3034
02:49:06,920 --> 02:49:07,719
Speaker 2: That's all I mean is.

3035
02:49:08,840 --> 02:49:14,639
Speaker 12: I canolstate Christianity Prosonism. It's on the same religion. It

3036
02:49:14,719 --> 02:49:17,959
says a lot of hatred between each of those religions.

3037
02:49:19,840 --> 02:49:23,760
Speaker 2: And I'm just wondering if they anybody.

3038
02:49:24,079 --> 02:49:29,000
Speaker 12: Sees the differences within these religions and how silly they are.

3039
02:49:30,399 --> 02:49:33,079
It's Hadden of hatred that has caused between each of

3040
02:49:33,120 --> 02:49:33,799
their religions.

3041
02:49:35,319 --> 02:49:38,159
Speaker 4: So they're wrong because members of the religions hate each other.

3042
02:49:39,440 --> 02:49:42,040
Speaker 2: No, not wrong, not wrong, not at all.

3043
02:49:42,280 --> 02:49:43,040
Speaker 4: You said they're silly.

3044
02:49:44,719 --> 02:49:47,200
Speaker 2: No, So I live anyway, it's coast to Scotland.

3045
02:49:51,120 --> 02:50:29,440
Speaker 4: I'm not there. What you're saying? Yah rah ex ephens, exophens.

3046
02:50:31,719 --> 02:50:41,280
I'm mute, m hm axophans. You have to unmute if

3047
02:50:41,319 --> 02:51:06,680
you wanna talk. M David with a T. David, Hey,

3048
02:51:06,799 --> 02:51:07,200
can you hear me?

3049
02:51:07,319 --> 02:51:09,760
Speaker 2: Jack? Uh huh, Hey, how's it going?

3050
02:51:09,840 --> 02:51:14,600
Speaker 52: So my question is, so I am Oriental Orthodox and

3051
02:51:14,799 --> 02:51:17,040
I just want to get your opinion on the Oriental

3052
02:51:17,159 --> 02:51:19,920
Church on the north of orthodox side, and why do

3053
02:51:19,920 --> 02:51:24,799
you think the Calcidonian approach is true Orthodoxy given the

3054
02:51:24,920 --> 02:51:28,280
historical context of the church, So when the council was happening,

3055
02:51:28,319 --> 02:51:30,200
for example, historical fact.

3056
02:51:30,719 --> 02:51:33,200
Speaker 4: I've done many streams with David Arhun on this. You

3057
02:51:33,360 --> 02:51:35,079
go watch those streams. Do you want to get a

3058
02:51:35,159 --> 02:51:36,879
precise thing? We're not gonna go to all the history.

3059
02:51:36,879 --> 02:51:38,319
That's impossible. So what's given?

3060
02:51:38,479 --> 02:51:39,280
Speaker 31: Not the history?

3061
02:51:39,319 --> 02:51:41,360
Speaker 4: I just do you just said historical context?

3062
02:51:41,440 --> 02:51:44,280
Speaker 52: What do you mean I'm saying the Orientals were not

3063
02:51:44,360 --> 02:51:46,600
even invited to the Caltidonian Council.

3064
02:51:46,760 --> 02:51:50,879
Speaker 4: So the Fifth Council is the council that's that's crucial here,

3065
02:51:52,840 --> 02:51:55,920
cract for fifty one. No, the Fifth Council, that's the

3066
02:51:56,000 --> 02:52:01,159
key council, that's the one where the tempted reconciliation with

3067
02:52:01,239 --> 02:52:01,760
you guys is.

3068
02:52:03,959 --> 02:52:07,319
Speaker 52: Okay, So you're saying the Orientals did not accept and

3069
02:52:07,799 --> 02:52:10,120
they're not true Orthodox for that reason, some did?

3070
02:52:12,200 --> 02:52:15,959
Speaker 4: Which ones all the ones that agreed to the Justinian

3071
02:52:16,360 --> 02:52:20,079
reconciliation and the Fifth Ecumenical Council. Because even today many

3072
02:52:20,120 --> 02:52:23,479
of your guys admit that the Fifth Council teaches the

3073
02:52:23,600 --> 02:52:28,479
correct view of the hypostasis and the subject of Christ.

3074
02:52:28,680 --> 02:52:32,159
But the point of departure tends to be what are

3075
02:52:32,200 --> 02:52:34,719
we going to do with the question of people like severuss.

3076
02:52:34,799 --> 02:52:38,719
So most of you guys, as far as I'm aware,

3077
02:52:38,920 --> 02:52:41,079
tend to say that we agree in the way that

3078
02:52:41,200 --> 02:52:44,639
the Fifth Council presents kurelling Christology.

3079
02:52:46,639 --> 02:52:50,479
Speaker 2: And do you think the physicists churches are not true Orthodox?

3080
02:52:51,920 --> 02:52:54,319
Speaker 4: Well, like I'm saying, like we are not in communion,

3081
02:52:54,520 --> 02:52:57,520
But you guys agree that the Fifth Council presents it correctly.

3082
02:52:57,639 --> 02:53:01,719
So the issue becomes the people like severus. But no,

3083
02:53:01,840 --> 02:53:03,840
we are not in communion, so we don't consider.

3084
02:53:03,600 --> 02:53:05,879
Speaker 2: Your orthodox Okay, appreciate it.

3085
02:53:06,120 --> 02:53:08,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, good questions. I mean I've got longer We've got

3086
02:53:08,479 --> 02:53:10,239
longer streams with David Orhan and all that. If you

3087
02:53:10,280 --> 02:53:14,239
want to go check those out, Uh exists exta Fins.

3088
02:53:14,280 --> 02:53:19,799
You want to try again, it's open for him. If

3089
02:53:19,799 --> 02:53:21,719
you want to call in uh, you can do so

3090
02:53:21,920 --> 02:53:27,799
through the call in uh Twitter space right here. I'm

3091
02:53:27,799 --> 02:53:29,920
gonna have to go T T and little girls room

3092
02:53:29,959 --> 02:53:33,200
here in a minute. But I'm still I'm still here.

3093
02:53:33,559 --> 02:53:39,920
I'm still staying. No, no exa Fins. We have to

3094
02:53:40,040 --> 02:53:40,280
um you.

3095
02:53:42,399 --> 02:53:45,159
Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, can you hear me?

3096
02:53:48,600 --> 02:53:48,639
Speaker 11: So?

3097
02:53:48,840 --> 02:53:50,040
Speaker 4: I have a quick question.

3098
02:53:51,799 --> 02:53:55,280
Speaker 47: What's the proper response to the platonic youth for the lemma?

3099
02:53:55,879 --> 02:53:57,120
Speaker 2: Is it like a first lemma?

3100
02:53:57,200 --> 02:53:57,520
Speaker 57: Or is it?

3101
02:53:59,600 --> 02:54:01,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a false dilemment. We've covered that a lot

3102
02:54:01,639 --> 02:54:04,760
in the old old live streams. I'm sorry, I just

3103
02:54:04,840 --> 02:54:06,680
have the energy to go through all that. Do you

3104
02:54:06,760 --> 02:54:08,600
want to try again and not sing at me? Do

3105
02:54:08,600 --> 02:54:10,079
you want to make an argument? Or you gonna sing

3106
02:54:10,120 --> 02:54:10,719
Arabic at me?

3107
02:54:19,719 --> 02:54:19,959
Speaker 58: Hello?

3108
02:54:20,239 --> 02:54:24,760
Speaker 2: Everybody? I tried to speak Arabic earlier. I'm just trying

3109
02:54:24,840 --> 02:54:28,479
to bring up Palestine into the debat, but.

3110
02:54:29,120 --> 02:54:30,520
Speaker 4: Has nothing to do with the topics.

3111
02:54:31,520 --> 02:54:34,399
Speaker 2: I guess Arabic was it wasn't invented back.

3112
02:54:37,159 --> 02:54:37,360
Speaker 8: Eric.

3113
02:54:43,680 --> 02:54:55,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're cutting out man, people in the chat bitching.

3114
02:54:55,840 --> 02:54:57,719
I make I make jokes. Dude, if you can't handle it,

3115
02:54:57,760 --> 02:54:59,600
don't come on? Where do you make fun of his voice?

3116
02:55:00,239 --> 02:55:00,920
Speaker 44: You mean?

3117
02:55:04,280 --> 02:55:07,079
Speaker 4: Go ahead, just a question if you're there.

3118
02:55:08,399 --> 02:55:11,200
Speaker 2: The attribute of God? Is it God in itself?

3119
02:55:12,760 --> 02:55:15,959
Speaker 4: The Orthodox view their energies, So they're not his essence,

3120
02:55:16,000 --> 02:55:19,680
they're his actions, but.

3121
02:55:19,799 --> 02:55:20,879
Speaker 34: It is it is God?

3122
02:55:21,200 --> 02:55:24,399
Speaker 4: Or is it God is fully present in his actions? Yes,

3123
02:55:24,600 --> 02:55:26,319
so they're not different than God.

3124
02:55:26,360 --> 02:55:29,799
Speaker 2: But that is That is the Orthodox perspective.

3125
02:55:30,079 --> 02:55:33,040
Speaker 34: What about Islamic perspective on that?

3126
02:55:33,840 --> 02:55:36,360
Speaker 4: They've got all kinds of schools about the relationship of

3127
02:55:36,440 --> 02:55:42,280
all that to his attributes sit they have all kinds

3128
02:55:42,280 --> 02:55:48,760
of schools and positions. So it depends on whether you're

3129
02:55:48,799 --> 02:55:53,879
talking to AUTHORI a Shari Muturidi. They're all over the place. Sorry,

3130
02:55:53,920 --> 02:55:56,079
you're you're cutting out, man, I can't you there's no uh,

3131
02:55:56,840 --> 02:56:00,479
not a good signal here? Say that?

3132
02:56:00,559 --> 02:56:00,920
Speaker 2: What's up?

3133
02:56:10,520 --> 02:56:12,280
Speaker 4: I'm mute? You don't have to while you're raising your hand.

3134
02:56:14,559 --> 02:56:17,799
Speaker 7: Yeah, okay, what I'm a own language figure.

3135
02:56:18,159 --> 02:56:21,799
Speaker 4: So are you calling from a toilet? What's up?

3136
02:56:21,879 --> 02:56:22,000
Speaker 1: Man?

3137
02:56:22,959 --> 02:56:23,000
Speaker 7: No?

3138
02:56:23,879 --> 02:56:28,239
Speaker 2: Oh no, this is my figure. Can you give me better?

3139
02:56:28,920 --> 02:56:30,680
Or should I shut down?

3140
02:56:31,000 --> 02:56:33,079
Speaker 4: Are you calling me from six feet under the grave?

3141
02:56:33,239 --> 02:56:33,600
What's up?

3142
02:56:33,680 --> 02:56:33,799
Speaker 2: Man?

3143
02:56:33,840 --> 02:56:34,319
Speaker 4: I can't hear you?

3144
02:56:35,159 --> 02:56:36,559
Speaker 2: Great? Great, the grave?

3145
02:56:37,680 --> 02:56:39,200
Speaker 15: Yeah, they took this down from here.

3146
02:56:39,520 --> 02:56:40,239
Speaker 4: What's on your mind?

3147
02:56:41,399 --> 02:56:41,600
Speaker 2: Oh?

3148
02:56:45,040 --> 02:56:45,879
Speaker 16: Can you get him better?

3149
02:56:46,040 --> 02:56:46,159
Speaker 2: Now?

3150
02:56:46,479 --> 02:56:47,559
Speaker 4: Yes, sir? What's on your mind?

3151
02:56:48,719 --> 02:56:49,159
Speaker 7: All right?

3152
02:56:49,239 --> 02:56:49,559
Speaker 2: All right?

3153
02:56:49,920 --> 02:56:52,840
Speaker 7: What's on my mind? That's an injuring space.

3154
02:56:53,000 --> 02:56:57,079
Speaker 59: I see Islam, Athis, Catholic, Protestantsagnostic, Mormons.

3155
02:56:57,879 --> 02:56:59,000
Speaker 7: I don't see scientos.

3156
02:57:01,040 --> 02:57:04,159
Speaker 4: Well, there's there's limits, there's limited spaces up there.

3157
02:57:04,280 --> 02:57:09,959
Speaker 59: So okay, well I'm independent though I have no affiliation

3158
02:57:10,200 --> 02:57:11,680
with the fucking church.

3159
02:57:13,280 --> 02:57:16,120
Speaker 7: So I want you to take part in the discussion.

3160
02:57:16,239 --> 02:57:17,680
Speaker 2: Some people are laughing. I like that.

3161
02:57:19,280 --> 02:57:23,120
Speaker 59: As as an independent, as an India. Okay, if I

3162
02:57:23,159 --> 02:57:25,200
can fat, if.

3163
02:57:25,120 --> 02:57:28,959
Speaker 7: I can fit. As I understand.

3164
02:57:29,040 --> 02:57:33,760
Speaker 59: The space is about, you know, cosmic stuff and the

3165
02:57:34,159 --> 02:57:35,959
religions like that.

3166
02:57:36,479 --> 02:57:41,159
Speaker 4: It is about all of this bullshet bro. Yes, what

3167
02:57:41,360 --> 02:57:44,760
is on your mind? What does your buh?

3168
02:57:45,120 --> 02:57:46,920
Speaker 7: Why are you talking like in Pakistani.

3169
02:57:47,079 --> 02:57:49,120
Speaker 4: I am trying to talk to you to vibe with

3170
02:57:49,239 --> 02:57:49,600
your brother.

3171
02:57:50,559 --> 02:57:54,479
Speaker 7: Oh no, my is my accent so Pakistan?

3172
02:57:54,600 --> 02:57:58,760
Speaker 4: Okay, bro, I don't you were from India, not Pakistan by.

3173
02:57:58,760 --> 02:57:59,680
Speaker 2: India, right right?

3174
02:58:00,319 --> 02:58:04,079
Speaker 7: Okay, I'm trying to do the American accent being a Greek.

3175
02:58:03,879 --> 02:58:05,559
Speaker 4: And I am trying to talk to you in your

3176
02:58:05,639 --> 02:58:06,719
own native tongue.

3177
02:58:07,479 --> 02:58:10,479
Speaker 15: Yes, okay, they took the stones from here.

3178
02:58:11,920 --> 02:58:14,360
Speaker 7: Well my tongue, My tongue is an ancient tongue.

3179
02:58:14,559 --> 02:58:18,440
Speaker 2: My friend is a Greek tongue. It told the world.

3180
02:58:19,520 --> 02:58:26,520
Speaker 59: But now I'm intervening here. Maybe maybe your listeners.

3181
02:58:26,040 --> 02:58:30,639
Speaker 4: Are are you Greek or are you Pakistani or Indian?

3182
02:58:31,239 --> 02:58:32,879
Speaker 2: Greek? Oh? Greek?

3183
02:58:32,959 --> 02:58:34,879
Speaker 7: I'm Greek, full full bloody Greek.

3184
02:58:35,159 --> 02:58:37,639
Speaker 4: Well will you sound a straight up Hindu over here?

3185
02:58:38,440 --> 02:58:38,639
Speaker 27: Yeah?

3186
02:58:38,719 --> 02:58:43,879
Speaker 59: Okay, Well I wanted to intervene and interject like a

3187
02:58:43,959 --> 02:58:46,959
little bit of scientology or has got.

3188
02:58:46,799 --> 02:58:50,440
Speaker 4: A patrolling there? No way, you're a Greek scientologist?

3189
02:58:50,520 --> 02:58:52,280
Speaker 2: Come on, yes, yes I am.

3190
02:58:52,600 --> 02:58:52,840
Speaker 54: I am.

3191
02:58:53,760 --> 02:58:56,639
Speaker 4: Wait a minute, so all the religions are bullshit, but

3192
02:58:56,879 --> 02:58:59,639
like space staatee and alien ship is real?

3193
02:58:59,719 --> 02:59:00,959
Speaker 2: Come on, Oh, you.

3194
02:59:02,719 --> 02:59:10,719
Speaker 4: You're trolling to get that is the most Indian Greek, dude,

3195
02:59:10,719 --> 02:59:18,200
I've ever heard in my life. Noah, everyone hubberd doers

3196
02:59:18,280 --> 02:59:19,200
did grouse from me?

3197
02:59:20,799 --> 02:59:21,680
Speaker 8: Are you from Greece?

3198
02:59:21,719 --> 02:59:21,959
Speaker 2: Brother?

3199
02:59:22,639 --> 02:59:26,479
Speaker 4: They took their stones from here? Noah, I'm you?

3200
02:59:29,079 --> 02:59:34,440
Speaker 2: Can you mean awesome? I just have a question. I

3201
02:59:34,559 --> 02:59:36,000
was wondering because.

3202
02:59:35,719 --> 02:59:38,600
Speaker 18: I've been getting into trying to study ecclesiology across the

3203
02:59:38,719 --> 02:59:39,840
denominational lines.

3204
02:59:39,879 --> 02:59:41,719
Speaker 2: A little bit would last little while.

3205
02:59:42,239 --> 02:59:47,239
Speaker 31: How does the what is the Orthodox conception of the church,

3206
02:59:48,520 --> 02:59:51,440
and how does that relate to its claim to being one?

3207
02:59:52,079 --> 02:59:54,319
Speaker 4: Okay, so I said multiple times, I'm not doing f

3208
02:59:54,399 --> 02:59:57,680
a q tonight. Tonight is debate. So what do you

3209
02:59:57,760 --> 02:59:59,559
mean the Orthodox Church is to claim to be the

3210
02:59:59,639 --> 03:00:02,360
one Church? Not trying to be rude, just saying its

3211
03:00:02,479 --> 03:00:04,120
claim is that it's the one true church. It's not

3212
03:00:04,719 --> 03:00:07,239
faq tonight. So if you're calling in to be faq,

3213
03:00:07,559 --> 03:00:09,959
please don't do it. Valantine Claudi, you.

3214
03:00:17,799 --> 03:00:22,559
Speaker 57: Hi, Jacob bless your brother's I'm going to lease the

3215
03:00:22,680 --> 03:00:25,840
rth bus and I had to pay with a growman

3216
03:00:25,920 --> 03:00:29,040
Catholic and you're very knowledge bog the boys think so.

3217
03:00:29,159 --> 03:00:31,799
He said that in the first dozen years the church,

3218
03:00:32,600 --> 03:00:34,479
nobody called the Church Orthodox.

3219
03:00:34,559 --> 03:00:36,959
Speaker 2: It was always Catholic and the name comes after kiss.

3220
03:00:37,520 --> 03:00:38,639
What's your argument against it?

3221
03:00:39,920 --> 03:00:43,280
Speaker 4: The stupidest argument I've heard in about two years, because

3222
03:00:44,200 --> 03:00:47,120
the name itself does not tell you that it's the

3223
03:00:47,239 --> 03:00:50,319
papist church. I mean, that's so stupid. Like we call

3224
03:00:50,399 --> 03:00:53,280
it the Orthodox Catholic Church. The idea that because the

3225
03:00:53,399 --> 03:00:56,200
church fathers called it the Catholic Church, that that means

3226
03:00:56,319 --> 03:01:00,319
papacy is literally like get some new friends. That's all

3227
03:01:00,360 --> 03:01:02,440
I gotta say on no one, Dave, what's up? Dave?

3228
03:01:03,440 --> 03:01:06,959
For having fun tonight open forum debate. Please don't ask

3229
03:01:07,040 --> 03:01:09,879
me the FAQ's and the catechumen questions. That's not what

3230
03:01:09,920 --> 03:01:14,559
we're doing tonight. I want more Greek Hindu scientologists, That's

3231
03:01:14,600 --> 03:01:15,040
what I want.

3232
03:01:17,840 --> 03:01:23,799
Speaker 43: Hey, last question, when you did your debate with Trent Horne,

3233
03:01:24,040 --> 03:01:25,799
and he asked the question of.

3234
03:01:27,280 --> 03:01:30,280
Speaker 2: Was there any kind of y'all's debate on natural theology?

3235
03:01:30,559 --> 03:01:34,520
When was there any ecumenical council that condemned.

3236
03:01:36,360 --> 03:01:39,959
Speaker 43: Natural theology or the tomistic idea of natural theology?

3237
03:01:40,000 --> 03:01:42,239
Speaker 4: And you, if I remember.

3238
03:01:42,000 --> 03:01:44,239
Speaker 2: Correctly, you said the Seventh Ecumenical Council.

3239
03:01:44,719 --> 03:01:47,600
Speaker 4: I said, my extension, the idea would be condemned. Obviously

3240
03:01:47,639 --> 03:01:50,159
it's not going to condemn Thomas Aquinas since its centuries

3241
03:01:50,200 --> 03:01:53,000
before his existence. But yeah, the reason I said that

3242
03:01:53,120 --> 03:01:57,959
is that the iconographic theology of the Church would implicitly

3243
03:01:58,120 --> 03:02:01,200
be a rejection of the idea that nature can be

3244
03:02:01,479 --> 03:02:05,600
understood without reference to divine revelation through pure reasoning and

3245
03:02:05,639 --> 03:02:08,879
all this kind of nonsense, because for us, nature and

3246
03:02:09,319 --> 03:02:11,639
the creative world is that they often it's a christophany,

3247
03:02:12,079 --> 03:02:14,200
and that's foreign to the mind of the Roman cals.

3248
03:02:15,079 --> 03:02:16,559
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, thank you.

3249
03:02:16,799 --> 03:02:19,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what I was referring to. Obviously, I wasn't saying.

3250
03:02:19,239 --> 03:02:22,840
I'm not saying you're saying this, but some Roman calliy.

3251
03:02:22,760 --> 03:02:24,399
Speaker 8: Oh he's so, he's so stupid.

3252
03:02:24,479 --> 03:02:31,639
Speaker 4: He thinks that they condemned to Thomas Glory existed. No, bro,

3253
03:02:31,760 --> 03:02:36,399
get out of here. We're trying to bring great Orthodox scientology.

3254
03:02:36,479 --> 03:02:50,719
Come on, man, Richard Bruno, Jordano Bruno, what's up? Yep? Richard?

3255
03:02:51,680 --> 03:02:56,239
Speaker 2: Oh as you do? Hey, I just have a question

3256
03:02:56,680 --> 03:03:00,680
about evolution, and I know you don't even evolution.

3257
03:03:01,399 --> 03:03:03,159
Speaker 60: And I saw this argument that you were having with

3258
03:03:03,239 --> 03:03:06,600
this lady and she was talking about the archaeological evidence.

3259
03:03:07,200 --> 03:03:10,920
But why didn't you accept that? I understand that she

3260
03:03:11,040 --> 03:03:13,600
was like quoting some scholars that she didn't understand. She

3261
03:03:13,680 --> 03:03:16,879
didn't she wasn't able to recall them. But why is

3262
03:03:16,959 --> 03:03:19,120
it that that wasn't a good argument.

3263
03:03:20,040 --> 03:03:22,319
Speaker 4: I don't even remember what you're referring to. But can

3264
03:03:22,399 --> 03:03:26,200
you rephrase like what she was saying or kind of

3265
03:03:27,040 --> 03:03:29,959
rehearse like what what it was? I mean, it's not

3266
03:03:30,000 --> 03:03:32,600
a good argument, by the way, too. I mean my

3267
03:03:32,719 --> 03:03:35,200
first thought was she was probably just citing scholars, and

3268
03:03:35,280 --> 03:03:36,920
I'm like, why is that? Why am I supposed to

3269
03:03:37,000 --> 03:03:41,079
just accept random scholars or academics. I'm very skeptical about

3270
03:03:41,159 --> 03:03:44,799
academics and claims of any academics because I've been in

3271
03:03:45,000 --> 03:03:46,879
the world of academia. I know what it's like. And

3272
03:03:46,959 --> 03:03:48,639
by the way, if you think I'm an idiot, that

3273
03:03:48,920 --> 03:03:51,959
also disproves academia because I'm actually a peer review published

3274
03:03:51,959 --> 03:03:56,239
in academia, so that that itself disproves peer review.

3275
03:03:58,799 --> 03:04:02,239
Speaker 2: I see. Okay, yeah, I mean that's basically what it was. Yeah,

3276
03:04:02,319 --> 03:04:04,799
that she would bring up scholars.

3277
03:04:05,000 --> 03:04:07,120
Speaker 4: Okay, well, then I'll cite all the scholars who disagree,

3278
03:04:07,200 --> 03:04:07,639
So now what.

3279
03:04:09,280 --> 03:04:14,200
Speaker 2: That's a good point actually, Okay.

3280
03:04:14,000 --> 03:04:17,040
Speaker 4: Wow, so scholars are like, you know that they can be.

3281
03:04:18,280 --> 03:04:19,879
It's kind of like a courtroom if you think about

3282
03:04:19,879 --> 03:04:23,520
a courtroom, and you know in the courtroom they'll bring

3283
03:04:23,639 --> 03:04:28,520
in expert witnesses or expert testimony, and then the expert

3284
03:04:28,600 --> 03:04:32,079
comes in and says, it is my expert opinion that

3285
03:04:32,399 --> 03:04:36,639
Jeffrey Dahmer had to have conducted these murders because of

3286
03:04:36,760 --> 03:04:40,319
the genetic evidence and because of his profile. And then

3287
03:04:40,600 --> 03:04:44,120
the jury says, this is an expert, and he gives

3288
03:04:44,159 --> 03:04:46,840
a good testimony as to why it must be the case. Now,

3289
03:04:47,360 --> 03:04:52,959
does that necessarily prove that he did it on its own?

3290
03:04:53,600 --> 03:04:59,200
Not necessarily, so it's an evidence, but strict analytic or

3291
03:04:59,479 --> 03:05:05,799
logical or whatever proof. No one scholar's attestation to something

3292
03:05:06,319 --> 03:05:09,479
in this domain unless it's something that's about like an

3293
03:05:09,680 --> 03:05:14,760
actual argument or proof that's like logical that could That's

3294
03:05:14,799 --> 03:05:16,479
like the only time I can think we're an expert

3295
03:05:16,600 --> 03:05:20,399
is right when it's like an expert math argument and

3296
03:05:20,520 --> 03:05:23,760
the expert shows that his argument is objectively the case. Okay,

3297
03:05:23,959 --> 03:05:26,479
and that's in that case, but it's not true because

3298
03:05:26,479 --> 03:05:29,120
it's from an expert. That's the fells this authority fil

3299
03:05:29,159 --> 03:05:35,360
appealed authority fallacy. So testimony of experts can be evidences,

3300
03:05:35,440 --> 03:05:39,639
they can be attestations, but they're not proofs. But you

3301
03:05:39,719 --> 03:05:42,680
got so many low tier atheist people or Reddit people

3302
03:05:43,079 --> 03:05:46,319
remember t Jump, Remember when we were debating. He's like, well,

3303
03:05:46,639 --> 03:05:49,840
the majority of the science men say this, so it's true.

3304
03:05:50,559 --> 03:05:52,159
And I'm like, you actually think that it's true because

3305
03:05:52,200 --> 03:05:54,319
the majority of science, Like he'd say, yes, that's what

3306
03:05:54,440 --> 03:05:58,600
makes something true. That's so stupid these you are. It's cult.

3307
03:05:58,680 --> 03:06:02,440
If you have a disagreement, that's what we're doing tonight. Disagreements.

3308
03:06:02,520 --> 03:06:06,079
Please don't ask me the FAQ's.

3309
03:06:09,719 --> 03:06:13,040
Speaker 12: Hello, yop, Sorry, that might be.

3310
03:06:13,040 --> 03:06:14,959
Speaker 2: A ridiculous question, might not be worth your time.

3311
03:06:15,000 --> 03:06:17,719
Speaker 61: But because it might seem a little eye but I've

3312
03:06:17,760 --> 03:06:19,520
been trying to do a lot of research on what

3313
03:06:19,639 --> 03:06:23,360
the Church fathers thought on the biblical canon, and something

3314
03:06:23,399 --> 03:06:27,159
a lot of Protestants point to is Letter thirty nine

3315
03:06:27,399 --> 03:06:31,319
or from Saint Affinatius, where interestingly enough is canon is

3316
03:06:31,399 --> 03:06:33,040
closer to the Protestant with the.

3317
03:06:33,040 --> 03:06:37,239
Speaker 4: Exception that's well, that's the New Testament, and he's got

3318
03:06:37,319 --> 03:06:39,280
Old Testament books that are not the Protestant canon.

3319
03:06:40,799 --> 03:06:42,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you just don't explain.

3320
03:06:42,879 --> 03:06:46,000
Speaker 61: So he lists the Old Testament canon first, and then

3321
03:06:46,040 --> 03:06:48,360
he lists the New Testament, and then interestingly enough, at

3322
03:06:48,399 --> 03:06:51,879
the end he lists some of the Jutero canonical books.

3323
03:06:52,200 --> 03:06:54,959
But what I find particularly strange is I don't know

3324
03:06:55,040 --> 03:06:57,360
why he puts the Judo can in a separate section

3325
03:06:57,440 --> 03:06:59,079
when he cites them all throughout his works.

3326
03:06:59,120 --> 03:07:03,079
Speaker 4: I don't quite get that, because oftentimes it's been classed

3327
03:07:03,239 --> 03:07:07,200
as second canon, so works that are not as important,

3328
03:07:07,799 --> 03:07:11,159
and even the Orthodox Church like Roman Catholics and people,

3329
03:07:11,159 --> 03:07:14,879
they love to cite the Catechism of Metropolitan Filaret because

3330
03:07:14,879 --> 03:07:17,799
when he lists the canon, he lists what is the

3331
03:07:17,959 --> 03:07:22,760
non deuterocanonical list, and then like two questions down he says,

3332
03:07:23,079 --> 03:07:26,000
and we also hold to the dudocanonical books. So they've

3333
03:07:26,040 --> 03:07:29,319
always been classed as second canon. But that doesn't mean

3334
03:07:29,360 --> 03:07:30,840
that they're not part of the canon, because they're a

3335
03:07:30,840 --> 03:07:33,799
separate class. So it's just's like a Protestant thing where

3336
03:07:33,840 --> 03:07:36,399
they do this. But by the way, like, if you're

3337
03:07:36,440 --> 03:07:38,879
a Protestant, why are we supposed to follow Anthonatius like

3338
03:07:39,399 --> 03:07:39,879
says who.

3339
03:07:42,559 --> 03:07:43,159
Speaker 2: If you don't mind?

3340
03:07:43,239 --> 03:07:45,319
Speaker 61: On top of that, and as a protest of myself,

3341
03:07:45,319 --> 03:07:46,680
I got to be honest with you, this ain't a

3342
03:07:46,760 --> 03:07:47,559
fun thing to admit.

3343
03:07:47,639 --> 03:07:50,639
Speaker 2: But another one they go to is sinks Thrill of Jerusalem.

3344
03:07:51,040 --> 03:07:53,879
Speaker 61: But if they actually read the whole passage, he doesn't

3345
03:07:53,879 --> 03:07:54,719
include Revelation.

3346
03:07:54,959 --> 03:08:00,200
Speaker 4: I don't, yeah, exactly, because there's hotly disputed books that

3347
03:08:01,239 --> 03:08:04,040
take a long time centuries for the church all over

3348
03:08:04,159 --> 03:08:07,760
to except so obviously the church is not operating on

3349
03:08:07,840 --> 03:08:11,079
solid scriptura for those centuries. James White admits that the

3350
03:08:11,159 --> 03:08:13,440
Church wasn't operating on solo scripture in those centuries and

3351
03:08:13,520 --> 03:08:16,399
his debate with Trent Horne, so thank you exactly. So

3352
03:08:16,479 --> 03:08:19,840
therefore solo scriptura is not the ancient church's position.

3353
03:08:20,680 --> 03:08:22,159
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's just one last thing.

3354
03:08:22,239 --> 03:08:25,479
Speaker 61: Sorry, It's just that I was reading some Saint Augustin.

3355
03:08:25,120 --> 03:08:26,840
Speaker 2: And my account might be off.

3356
03:08:26,879 --> 03:08:28,520
Speaker 61: But in the City of God, I think he quotes

3357
03:08:28,559 --> 03:08:31,399
the Dudo of Canon roughly forty eight comes and again,

3358
03:08:31,520 --> 03:08:33,719
like you know, reform to Bros and Lutherans, they love

3359
03:08:33,760 --> 03:08:36,000
aughust him, but they don't like his canon. And I

3360
03:08:36,159 --> 03:08:38,079
just think that's kind of arbitrary, like how did you

3361
03:08:38,079 --> 03:08:39,920
get original Sin right and the Trinity right?

3362
03:08:40,000 --> 03:08:41,200
Speaker 2: But he got the canon wrong?

3363
03:08:42,239 --> 03:08:47,040
Speaker 4: Well again, in the Protestant position, it's completely arbitrary as

3364
03:08:47,079 --> 03:08:49,399
to why we're supposed to pick this or that church

3365
03:08:49,479 --> 03:08:53,600
father's canon. And if you're a consistent Protestant or a

3366
03:08:53,639 --> 03:08:57,520
Classical Reformation Protestant, all those people don't have the Gospel

3367
03:08:57,520 --> 03:08:59,799
anyway because they taught salvation by works and they didn't

3368
03:08:59,799 --> 03:09:01,799
believe been sola fe day. So why are we listening

3369
03:09:01,799 --> 03:09:03,559
to all these heretics about where the cannon comes from?

3370
03:09:03,639 --> 03:09:05,760
It's just all the whole position is stupid. But thank

3371
03:09:05,799 --> 03:09:08,159
you for the questions. I appreciate that, and I plugged

3372
03:09:08,639 --> 03:09:13,200
your investigation on those topics. It's open debate. So it

3373
03:09:13,239 --> 03:09:16,440
looks like we've whittled down to three people who always

3374
03:09:16,680 --> 03:09:18,959
ask theological questions. I'm not mad, I'm not fussing at

3375
03:09:19,000 --> 03:09:21,799
you guys, but tonight is for people who disagree. And

3376
03:09:21,840 --> 03:09:23,399
no matter how many times I say that, you guys

3377
03:09:23,399 --> 03:09:26,559
will then ask me a orthodox I f AQ question.

3378
03:09:27,479 --> 03:09:29,760
Does anybody disagree? You go to the head of the line.

3379
03:09:31,680 --> 03:09:33,920
It's only been three hours. I thought that this prominent

3380
03:09:33,959 --> 03:09:37,239
Roman Catholic dy was gonna come where's he Let's see

3381
03:09:37,280 --> 03:09:41,840
if he replied he said, I'll pop in three hours ago,

3382
03:09:43,159 --> 03:09:47,440
I'm gonna tell him to come hurry up, Come on, dude. Uh,

3383
03:09:57,040 --> 03:10:02,719
somebody said, is this your U bitcoin lightning address? No,

3384
03:10:02,879 --> 03:10:08,719
this is just the regular native segue. Uh, it's not

3385
03:10:08,879 --> 03:10:35,600
the lightning address. Anybody else? All right, Well I don't

3386
03:10:35,600 --> 03:10:37,760
see anybody else here. We go, Jayhawk? What's up in?

3387
03:10:48,760 --> 03:10:50,399
Speaker 2: Yeah? I disagree with.

3388
03:10:53,000 --> 03:10:56,200
Speaker 33: Your stance on pride being a godly attribute.

3389
03:10:57,920 --> 03:10:58,719
Speaker 4: What are you talking about?

3390
03:10:59,760 --> 03:11:00,520
Speaker 2: What that? I say that?

3391
03:11:01,559 --> 03:11:04,319
Speaker 33: The tone, the prideful tone in your voice.

3392
03:11:04,680 --> 03:11:05,920
Speaker 4: Well, you sound pride right now.

3393
03:11:07,639 --> 03:11:08,879
Speaker 2: Well I never.

3394
03:11:10,440 --> 03:11:15,760
Speaker 4: Claimed I wasn't, but o, So pride's okay for you?

3395
03:11:15,920 --> 03:11:16,319
Enough for me?

3396
03:11:17,079 --> 03:11:18,879
Speaker 2: No, it's both. It's bad for both of us.

3397
03:11:20,000 --> 03:11:21,799
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, then take the mode out of your own eye?

3398
03:11:21,840 --> 03:11:22,559
What are you talking about?

3399
03:11:27,760 --> 03:11:27,959
Speaker 2: Okay?

3400
03:11:28,000 --> 03:11:29,399
Speaker 4: Are you trolling or I don't understand?

3401
03:11:31,559 --> 03:11:33,479
Speaker 2: Well, you just sound a bit prideful, that's all.

3402
03:11:33,719 --> 03:11:36,799
Speaker 4: Okay. Do you have an argument?

3403
03:11:40,239 --> 03:11:41,360
Speaker 2: Be more humble?

3404
03:11:42,559 --> 03:11:59,479
Speaker 4: Okay, that's really pious, man, raw race, you gotta mute.

3405
03:12:00,760 --> 03:12:05,120
Speaker 2: Okay. Sorry. So I'm Orthodox and I have two questions.

3406
03:12:05,159 --> 03:12:08,159
Speaker 4: I hope I'm not doing a questions man, I'm not

3407
03:12:08,280 --> 03:12:16,680
doing that. Catholics cargus. Look where people who disagree.

3408
03:12:18,120 --> 03:12:20,559
Speaker 2: Hey, I don't disagree, but I'm an Orthodox in choir.

3409
03:12:20,680 --> 03:12:22,879
Speaker 56: And this guy asked me, is it seems kind of

3410
03:12:22,879 --> 03:12:25,719
like a dumb question, but he said, if God is

3411
03:12:26,040 --> 03:12:29,760
fully uncreated then and he's like transcendent, then how.

3412
03:12:29,719 --> 03:12:33,440
Speaker 2: Does he interact with us if we are created? Essentially

3413
03:12:33,479 --> 03:12:34,440
Maybe it's just a dumb question.

3414
03:12:35,120 --> 03:12:37,200
Speaker 4: That's the purpose of the essence center the distinction. It's

3415
03:12:37,200 --> 03:12:39,399
a good question. And if you read read letter two

3416
03:12:39,479 --> 03:12:44,840
thirty four of Basil and he addresses that very question. Oh,

3417
03:12:45,360 --> 03:12:52,559
let's uh, here'll tell us more about your humility. You

3418
03:12:52,680 --> 03:12:58,120
have to unmute, Jayhawk. You have to unmute.

3419
03:13:02,239 --> 03:13:05,319
Speaker 2: Uh. I you were cutting out so I didn't even

3420
03:13:05,319 --> 03:13:05,920
hear what you said.

3421
03:13:06,440 --> 03:13:11,479
Speaker 4: Sorry, well, you requested to come back, so please enlighten

3422
03:13:11,600 --> 03:13:12,600
us about your virtue.

3423
03:13:13,920 --> 03:13:17,000
Speaker 2: Oh I did. Oh my mistake. I didn't mean to

3424
03:13:17,239 --> 03:13:18,239
request to come back.

3425
03:13:18,639 --> 03:13:40,280
Speaker 8: Okay, casey, hey Jay, can you hear me?

3426
03:13:41,200 --> 03:13:42,399
Speaker 34: It's an annoying question to ask.

3427
03:13:42,760 --> 03:13:46,280
Speaker 11: Ask anyway, Okay, quick question, Thanks for having me on again.

3428
03:13:46,360 --> 03:13:55,239
Speaker 33: Though, when can we say, uh that the Orientals were.

3429
03:13:55,360 --> 03:13:57,479
Speaker 62: Officially out of communion?

3430
03:13:57,680 --> 03:14:00,799
Speaker 33: And it's it's kind of just a question that connects to.

3431
03:14:01,920 --> 03:14:05,079
Speaker 4: Tonight, right, So tonight I said, we're doing debate, so

3432
03:14:05,120 --> 03:14:08,079
it's people who disagree, So please don't ask me the

3433
03:14:08,479 --> 03:14:10,520
orthodox I f AQ questions. I'm not mad at you.

3434
03:14:10,559 --> 03:14:21,319
I'm just saying it's for people who disagree. Cody clearest talent, Okay,

3435
03:14:21,399 --> 03:14:23,239
here's my claim. If you believe the witness of the

3436
03:14:23,319 --> 03:14:25,680
resurrection is enough to believe in the resurrection. I never

3437
03:14:25,840 --> 03:14:30,680
argued that evidentialism, so it has nothing to do with

3438
03:14:30,760 --> 03:14:34,079
your terrible Book of Mormon argument. DC would work at

3439
03:14:34,079 --> 03:14:35,959
three dollars, Thank you so much, William Die. Three dollars.

3440
03:14:36,399 --> 03:14:41,239
What's the refutation of Darwinism of ninety percent being identical

3441
03:14:41,280 --> 03:14:45,920
to apes and DNA? Well, I mean that small percentage

3442
03:14:45,920 --> 03:14:48,840
of difference is very close. For example, we're very close

3443
03:14:48,920 --> 03:14:51,719
to lizards, and I'm pretty sure there's a pretty big

3444
03:14:51,760 --> 03:14:54,360
difference between us and a lizard, even if it's only

3445
03:14:54,360 --> 03:14:57,920
a three percent difference. Anonymous, five dollars. What's the best

3446
03:14:58,040 --> 03:15:02,360
argument against two god gospel heresy? I don't know what

3447
03:15:02,520 --> 03:15:04,680
you mean, like dual covenant theology. I don't know what

3448
03:15:04,760 --> 03:15:11,639
two gospel heresy is. If you believe in solar scriptura, Uh, well,

3449
03:15:11,680 --> 03:15:16,719
I would just argue the canon. But the two gospel heresy.

3450
03:15:19,879 --> 03:15:23,600
You know, in the first hour I was giving arguments

3451
03:15:23,639 --> 03:15:27,920
about the continuity of the scriptures, So these people believe

3452
03:15:27,959 --> 03:15:30,799
that Paul taught a different gospel to the Gentiles. Paul

3453
03:15:30,840 --> 03:15:33,399
appeals in the Gospel of Relatis to being the same

3454
03:15:33,479 --> 03:15:36,479
gospel taught in the Old Testament. Jesus says, Abraham believed

3455
03:15:36,479 --> 03:15:39,319
in him, so the idea that there's two gospels is ridiculous.

3456
03:15:41,479 --> 03:15:44,000
Paul says, all of the covenants are yay in him

3457
03:15:44,040 --> 03:15:48,159
to the Corinthians. Cook's MC seven, your pink shirt is

3458
03:15:48,239 --> 03:15:51,360
on fire. Why are you mean he's joking? I appreciate that.

3459
03:15:51,520 --> 03:15:54,399
Spikes Begel seven three three zero. Can you list material

3460
03:15:54,479 --> 03:15:58,399
refuting dispensationalism. I mean, we did a four hour live

3461
03:15:58,479 --> 03:16:01,200
stream with Jimbob on that I need to get these

3462
03:16:01,280 --> 03:16:04,239
arguments together against evangelicals. Go to Jimbob's stream and watch

3463
03:16:04,559 --> 03:16:08,639
me and Posh dissecting it for four hours. Hypatios five dollars.

3464
03:16:09,159 --> 03:16:12,520
Thank you for calling Mormonism a cult. That guy needed

3465
03:16:12,520 --> 03:16:15,920
to hear that it is a cult. I'm sure there's

3466
03:16:15,959 --> 03:16:20,079
many well meaning people, so I'm not saying that I

3467
03:16:20,360 --> 03:16:23,760
hate you or something like that, but it is clearly

3468
03:16:23,879 --> 03:16:27,719
some it's a I mean, I mean, if you believe

3469
03:16:27,799 --> 03:16:31,600
that the wacky tales of all of the Mormon stuff.

3470
03:16:31,639 --> 03:16:37,559
I mean, Lucas ten dollars is the Western right heretical.

3471
03:16:38,120 --> 03:16:40,639
It's not the right that's heretical. It's that many people

3472
03:16:40,760 --> 03:16:42,719
want to bring in all the Roman Catholic doctrines that

3473
03:16:42,760 --> 03:16:47,280
are heretical. Mark ten Dollars, I know Arabic some I'm

3474
03:16:47,360 --> 03:16:53,639
convinced Mohammed was some spiritual title that was given. It

3475
03:16:53,799 --> 03:16:59,680
is rendered in MHMD and without vowels. Yeah, okay, I

3476
03:16:59,719 --> 03:17:03,399
don't have any position on that. Maybe that's true. It

3477
03:17:03,520 --> 03:17:07,399
is a title like Christ. Yeah, I know people are

3478
03:17:07,479 --> 03:17:10,399
arguing this. I don't know enough about this position to argue,

3479
03:17:10,399 --> 03:17:12,239
and I think it's I mean, it's like trying to

3480
03:17:12,319 --> 03:17:17,040
argue I disprove Jesus as a historical person. Let's just

3481
03:17:17,200 --> 03:17:19,639
argue the text itself and then, I mean, that's an easier,

3482
03:17:20,159 --> 03:17:23,799
more accessible, clear contradiction between what the Koran says and

3483
03:17:24,000 --> 03:17:27,159
previous revelation. That's the easiest argument. I mean, if you

3484
03:17:27,239 --> 03:17:29,319
try to go into these historical I'm going to disprove

3485
03:17:29,399 --> 03:17:31,639
the existence of Muhammed, You're just going to be spitting

3486
03:17:31,719 --> 03:17:36,040
scholars back and forth to infinity. Christen ten Dollars, thank

3487
03:17:36,079 --> 03:17:39,760
you for continued slang opposition. Thank you, CHRISTI appreciate that. Cody,

3488
03:17:39,799 --> 03:17:40,120
what's up?

3489
03:17:40,159 --> 03:17:43,959
Speaker 2: Man? What's up? Jake? Can you hear me?

3490
03:17:44,399 --> 03:17:46,040
Speaker 4: Huh? Do you have a disagreement or debate?

3491
03:17:47,799 --> 03:17:50,159
Speaker 2: Yeah? I wanted to bring up, like the Mormon point

3492
03:17:50,159 --> 03:17:51,879
of view and just I wanted to like get.

3493
03:17:51,760 --> 03:17:53,799
Speaker 63: Some some thoughts from you, not saying that I want

3494
03:17:53,840 --> 03:17:55,879
to like, actually, I'm not saying I believe that.

3495
03:17:55,959 --> 03:17:57,600
Speaker 2: But I'm just saying, like, I just want to represent

3496
03:17:57,680 --> 03:17:58,280
it for an argument.

3497
03:17:59,239 --> 03:18:01,159
Speaker 4: Yeah, Mormon friends or something.

3498
03:18:02,360 --> 03:18:04,440
Speaker 63: I have a history of being in Utah, so I

3499
03:18:04,600 --> 03:18:06,760
like whenever I was out there, I kind of got

3500
03:18:06,799 --> 03:18:07,799
brought in back into.

3501
03:18:07,680 --> 03:18:10,200
Speaker 2: Christianity just from being interested in what Mormonism was.

3502
03:18:10,399 --> 03:18:12,920
Speaker 4: Okay, but Mormonism isn't Christianity. Do you understand that or

3503
03:18:12,920 --> 03:18:13,479
do you think it is.

3504
03:18:15,520 --> 03:18:17,879
Speaker 2: I don't think that it's Christianity, knowing what I know now,

3505
03:18:18,200 --> 03:18:19,000
but I used to think.

3506
03:18:19,079 --> 03:18:20,520
Speaker 63: I used to think it was, like you know, because

3507
03:18:20,520 --> 03:18:23,079
they kind of tricked you almost they put like Jesus

3508
03:18:23,200 --> 03:18:25,040
Christ on really big bold letters.

3509
03:18:26,319 --> 03:18:28,639
Speaker 4: Well, I mean that just shows that the terminology is

3510
03:18:28,719 --> 03:18:30,639
what is not what mattered to what it means.

3511
03:18:32,879 --> 03:18:35,559
Speaker 2: Yes, that's true. What do you think about. But what

3512
03:18:35,639 --> 03:18:38,040
do you think about Joseph Smith and what he saw?

3513
03:18:39,479 --> 03:18:42,040
Speaker 4: I mean, I think Joe Smith was a notorious con man.

3514
03:18:42,079 --> 03:18:42,520
What do you mean?

3515
03:18:44,120 --> 03:18:46,280
Speaker 2: Okay, I got you.

3516
03:18:47,239 --> 03:18:50,719
Speaker 4: I mean he obviously cribbed all of the temple rituals

3517
03:18:50,719 --> 03:18:57,959
from Freemasonry. Yeah, what do you What do you mean? Yeah,

3518
03:18:58,239 --> 03:19:02,159
you didn't know that. I'm not being I'm not being

3519
03:19:02,200 --> 03:19:04,760
a bothole. I'm saying like, had you not heard that before?

3520
03:19:05,399 --> 03:19:06,239
Speaker 2: I've heard that before.

3521
03:19:06,719 --> 03:19:08,319
Speaker 4: Do you think it's true or you haven't looked into it?

3522
03:19:09,639 --> 03:19:12,200
Speaker 2: I'm not a Mormon. No, I don't believe that. I'm sorry,

3523
03:19:12,280 --> 03:19:16,840
I know that that. Yeah, I agree with you, bro.

3524
03:19:18,000 --> 03:19:21,959
Speaker 4: Okay, So I mean if he's cribbing the temple rituals

3525
03:19:22,000 --> 03:19:24,639
from Freemasonry, I mean that's kind of from the outset,

3526
03:19:24,760 --> 03:19:27,959
tells me that this is like not a legitimate religion.

3527
03:19:29,760 --> 03:19:31,840
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. But what do you think about all the

3528
03:19:31,879 --> 03:19:34,559
prophets that came afterwards? I claimed to have visions from God?

3529
03:19:35,559 --> 03:19:38,120
Speaker 4: Are you trolling? I mean, how would that prove? Why

3530
03:19:38,159 --> 03:19:39,559
would that prove Moism?

3531
03:19:39,680 --> 03:19:42,319
Speaker 2: No? No, Jay, am I bad. I'm not trying to troll.

3532
03:19:42,360 --> 03:19:44,719
Speaker 63: I'm just bringing up point of views that Mormon people

3533
03:19:44,799 --> 03:19:46,079
bring up to me, and I just want to hear

3534
03:19:46,159 --> 03:19:47,040
what you have to say about that.

3535
03:19:47,840 --> 03:19:50,799
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I mean, there's a million conment in

3536
03:19:50,840 --> 03:19:52,559
the world that claim to have visions from God. So

3537
03:19:52,920 --> 03:19:54,200
how would that prove Mormonism?

3538
03:19:56,600 --> 03:19:58,719
Speaker 2: I gotcha, And you just got to practice discern man.

3539
03:19:58,840 --> 03:20:01,559
Speaker 4: I guess well, I mean, I think there's going to

3540
03:20:01,600 --> 03:20:05,040
be obvious indicators and that it's not true. One of

3541
03:20:05,079 --> 03:20:07,239
those would be Well, let's just go with the simple

3542
03:20:07,879 --> 03:20:12,159
biblical argument, like there are no profits, as we argued

3543
03:20:12,200 --> 03:20:14,920
to the Mormon earlier on. And if that's the case,

3544
03:20:15,000 --> 03:20:18,760
as we saw Luke sixteen sixteen, the prophets were until

3545
03:20:18,879 --> 03:20:23,000
John Oh, then there's no office of Old Testament prophet anymore,

3546
03:20:23,879 --> 03:20:25,799
as Hebrews one says, he has spoken to us in

3547
03:20:25,879 --> 03:20:29,120
these last days by his son. Formerly he spoke to

3548
03:20:29,200 --> 03:20:33,120
us through the prophets again Hebrews one, Luke sixteen sixteen,

3549
03:20:33,360 --> 03:20:35,600
there's no new prophets. The faith was once for all

3550
03:20:35,639 --> 03:20:39,239
delivered to the saints Jude three Epicurus. So we had

3551
03:20:39,239 --> 03:20:58,559
an ancient philosopher joining us. What's up, Epicurus? Nope, yeah, yeah,

3552
03:21:00,079 --> 03:21:09,840
I'm mute. Hello Hello, yes, sir, hello hello Hello, No

3553
03:21:17,760 --> 03:21:21,719
sound bro you can't hear me. So again, Beloved, while

3554
03:21:21,719 --> 03:21:23,559
I was with you, our found it necessary to write,

3555
03:21:23,600 --> 03:21:26,280
very deligent, to write you concerning our commonsalvation, necessary to

3556
03:21:26,440 --> 03:21:29,479
write to you exhorting you to content our honesty for

3557
03:21:29,520 --> 03:21:32,000
the faith. Once were all delivered to the Saints, not

3558
03:21:32,120 --> 03:21:34,360
once we're all delivered to the Latter day Saints. Once

3559
03:21:34,399 --> 03:21:37,000
we're all delivered to the Saints. So if it was

3560
03:21:37,040 --> 03:21:39,120
once we're all delivered at this time in the days

3561
03:21:39,120 --> 03:21:43,200
of the Apostles, then it's not an ongoing thing. Once

3562
03:21:43,239 --> 03:21:46,280
for all, there's no new faiths, there's no new profits.

3563
03:21:46,920 --> 03:21:48,879
The law and the profits were until John and you

3564
03:21:49,000 --> 03:21:51,479
heard the Mormon have the melt down. When we actually

3565
03:21:51,559 --> 03:21:52,600
went to that text.

3566
03:21:52,719 --> 03:21:54,920
Speaker 6: You're making that up. There is no text.

3567
03:21:55,399 --> 03:21:56,200
Speaker 4: You're making that up.

3568
03:21:56,239 --> 03:21:56,920
Speaker 8: It does not say that.

3569
03:21:57,200 --> 03:21:59,200
Speaker 4: And then when we read it, you were added to

3570
03:21:59,319 --> 03:22:02,440
the text. When I literally just read the text.

3571
03:22:04,959 --> 03:22:18,200
Speaker 15: Gabriel, Gabriel Gabriel, h uh huh, question.

3572
03:22:18,639 --> 03:22:23,159
Speaker 2: Uh of a Catholic theology.

3573
03:22:24,600 --> 03:22:30,159
Speaker 64: So okay, the Catholics, I believe, when it comes to

3574
03:22:30,280 --> 03:22:37,280
the nature of God, they see, they deny, they deny.

3575
03:22:37,239 --> 03:22:44,280
Speaker 2: The essence uh energy, essence distinction. Okay, So when it

3576
03:22:44,319 --> 03:22:45,280
comes to the Eucharist.

3577
03:22:45,440 --> 03:22:52,879
Speaker 64: Therefore, if they think, when it comes to transubstantiation that

3578
03:22:53,959 --> 03:22:57,120
that is God in his absolute essence, that all.

3579
03:22:57,000 --> 03:22:57,559
Speaker 2: Bows my mind.

3580
03:22:57,600 --> 03:22:59,120
Speaker 64: How do I respond to this, because to me, that

3581
03:22:59,399 --> 03:23:02,360
would be the equivalent of saying that God as he

3582
03:23:02,559 --> 03:23:04,760
is and his absoluteness outside of Kevin's basement.

3583
03:23:05,719 --> 03:23:08,559
Speaker 4: I know they they do not say that it's the essence.

3584
03:23:08,639 --> 03:23:11,280
They don't know what it is. And they'll say, uh,

3585
03:23:11,479 --> 03:23:13,959
it's a well I take that back. They will agree

3586
03:23:13,959 --> 03:23:16,040
with us that nobody knows what God's essence is and

3587
03:23:16,159 --> 03:23:18,920
that we don't eat that. But then they say it

3588
03:23:19,040 --> 03:23:21,840
is a created grace that you're partaking of, So you're

3589
03:23:21,840 --> 03:23:27,120
eating a creature. So which is a contradiction because God

3590
03:23:27,239 --> 03:23:29,799
isn't a creature. There's no uncreated God. I mean, there's

3591
03:23:29,840 --> 03:23:31,000
no created God.

3592
03:23:33,120 --> 03:23:33,600
Speaker 2: Okay.

3593
03:23:34,200 --> 03:23:38,239
Speaker 64: Have you ever read the Catholic dogmatic theology of a

3594
03:23:38,399 --> 03:23:43,360
Joseph Pole or try to pronounce I have not. Oh, okay,

3595
03:23:44,120 --> 03:23:46,680
he's one of the only kind, like theoligin of seen.

3596
03:23:46,879 --> 03:23:49,200
Speaker 2: Have the book on the Attributes of God. Now when

3597
03:23:49,239 --> 03:23:51,079
it goes to say it and I don't put it

3598
03:23:51,159 --> 03:23:52,840
with me, actually have it in my kindle. I can

3599
03:23:52,879 --> 03:23:53,280
look it up.

3600
03:23:53,360 --> 03:23:57,600
Speaker 64: But it's Uh, this is the point that confuses me

3601
03:23:57,840 --> 03:24:03,040
because okay, so they for them to deny essence, energy's

3602
03:24:03,120 --> 03:24:07,360
distinction and for the creative grace, I just I don't

3603
03:24:07,440 --> 03:24:09,879
understand this creative grace stuff because I can't in them.

3604
03:24:10,440 --> 03:24:14,280
Speaker 4: It's because they have a presupposition about divine simplicity and

3605
03:24:14,600 --> 03:24:18,680
they can't admit that you're partaking of an energy. So

3606
03:24:19,239 --> 03:24:21,159
and it's not the essence, so it has to be

3607
03:24:21,319 --> 03:24:23,879
a created grace. And Aught says that dogmatically.

3608
03:24:26,159 --> 03:24:28,680
Speaker 64: Okay, so that Lily, God would be the guy to

3609
03:24:28,799 --> 03:24:31,040
see how they define created goods.

3610
03:24:31,760 --> 03:24:34,159
Speaker 4: Yes, it's a created substance. It's going to be created

3611
03:24:34,239 --> 03:24:37,840
accident in the soul. And by extension, the Council of

3612
03:24:37,879 --> 03:24:41,680
Trent says that what you are given in baptism is

3613
03:24:41,760 --> 03:24:44,799
the righteousness, not that God has, but that He makes

3614
03:24:44,879 --> 03:24:49,159
you righteous with which is a creature. So God is

3615
03:24:49,319 --> 03:24:54,040
creating a supernatural accident in the soul. That's the grace

3616
03:24:54,120 --> 03:24:57,120
that you get. And presumably the uchris would be the

3617
03:24:57,159 --> 03:25:01,399
same thing. That's dogmatic that's in Aught gives you about

3618
03:25:01,440 --> 03:25:03,360
five propositions as to what grace.

3619
03:25:03,239 --> 03:25:09,440
Speaker 2: Is, and the term accident is an Aristotelian.

3620
03:25:09,280 --> 03:25:13,520
Speaker 4: Right, but it's specified in Aught. He gives multiple propositions.

3621
03:25:14,000 --> 03:25:16,280
One of the propositions is that it is not God,

3622
03:25:16,520 --> 03:25:19,760
it is not his uncreated life. It is a created

3623
03:25:20,680 --> 03:25:26,000
thing in the soul, an accident in the soul. Okay,

3624
03:25:27,079 --> 03:25:29,239
so this is how silly. Their position is correct?

3625
03:25:30,680 --> 03:25:30,840
Speaker 16: Right?

3626
03:25:31,680 --> 03:25:35,959
Speaker 64: So, and the major contention would be that by believing this,

3627
03:25:36,680 --> 03:25:40,079
this interrupts a life of giosis.

3628
03:25:40,680 --> 03:25:45,479
Speaker 4: Well it's not theosis, yeah, it's it's another creature, Kalama says.

3629
03:25:45,600 --> 03:25:48,559
And when he's debating about this very point, he says,

3630
03:25:48,600 --> 03:25:51,120
how can another If arianism is wrong because a creature

3631
03:25:51,159 --> 03:25:53,879
can't save you, then created grace is wrong because it's

3632
03:25:53,920 --> 03:25:58,079
just another creature trying to save you. Please make us humble, Bro,

3633
03:25:58,440 --> 03:26:10,200
you're back. You have to mute. Why do you keep

3634
03:26:10,280 --> 03:26:11,879
coming back? If you just want to talk about how

3635
03:26:12,239 --> 03:26:12,799
humble you are?

3636
03:26:14,719 --> 03:26:16,280
Speaker 2: Don't make stuff up.

3637
03:26:16,799 --> 03:26:19,079
Speaker 4: I have a question, though, how am I making stuff up?

3638
03:26:21,799 --> 03:26:22,840
Speaker 2: Did you say how holy?

3639
03:26:22,959 --> 03:26:26,879
Speaker 4: I was humble? What humble?

3640
03:26:27,879 --> 03:26:29,120
Speaker 2: Oh? You said holy? No?

3641
03:26:29,200 --> 03:26:33,000
Speaker 9: But I have an honest question, and I'm asking, well,

3642
03:26:33,239 --> 03:26:35,959
well before that, I got a two questions, but let

3643
03:26:36,000 --> 03:26:36,479
me just ask this.

3644
03:26:36,600 --> 03:26:39,680
Speaker 2: Other one is what's the difference between.

3645
03:26:40,920 --> 03:26:43,280
Speaker 41: Prophesizing and being a prophet.

3646
03:26:44,079 --> 03:26:51,479
Speaker 4: Well, prophesizing isn't a word, so that's one difference, okay.

3647
03:26:54,079 --> 03:27:01,840
Speaker 2: And then also what exactly do you expect the debate

3648
03:27:02,399 --> 03:27:03,000
to be about?

3649
03:27:04,000 --> 03:27:06,079
Speaker 4: They can be about any of the topics listed in

3650
03:27:06,200 --> 03:27:08,719
giant bold print in front of your eyes.

3651
03:27:11,520 --> 03:27:18,319
Speaker 2: So, like, can you give some examples of debates.

3652
03:27:19,719 --> 03:27:26,000
Speaker 4: Any topic relating to Islam, Atheism, rom Catholicism, Protestantism, gnostic, Mormon,

3653
03:27:26,120 --> 03:27:29,600
Toe's witness, literally the things listed in giant bold in

3654
03:27:29,639 --> 03:27:30,239
front of your eyes.

3655
03:27:31,040 --> 03:27:34,760
Speaker 65: It's just funny because it sends all that versus you correct,

3656
03:27:37,399 --> 03:27:39,719
like like you're holier than thou.

3657
03:27:40,319 --> 03:27:42,440
Speaker 2: It's just it's a funny title.

3658
03:27:42,959 --> 03:27:45,319
Speaker 4: Why would that make me holier than now? Because I'm

3659
03:27:45,360 --> 03:27:48,159
doing debates? Earlier? You said debates make you arrogant, So

3660
03:27:49,120 --> 03:27:50,639
wouldn't it make me more arrogant than them?

3661
03:27:52,360 --> 03:27:55,799
Speaker 2: Said that said it was the tone, and I used

3662
03:27:55,799 --> 03:27:56,760
the word pride.

3663
03:27:56,479 --> 03:27:59,920
Speaker 4: Not arrogant, So tell me the difference between pride and air.

3664
03:28:03,079 --> 03:28:07,000
Speaker 2: I think arrogance is more of a modern word. So okay,

3665
03:28:07,239 --> 03:28:09,639
but yeah, they're very similar, but I don't know if

3666
03:28:09,680 --> 03:28:10,440
they'd be exact.

3667
03:28:11,200 --> 03:28:16,399
Speaker 4: So, so prophesizing is prophesizing, Well, you're a linguistic scholar.

3668
03:28:16,479 --> 03:28:18,479
You should have known prophesizing asn't a word.

3669
03:28:20,959 --> 03:28:23,360
Speaker 2: Why are you being sarcastic because.

3670
03:28:23,079 --> 03:28:25,280
Speaker 4: I'm always sarcastic as part of the stick.

3671
03:28:26,760 --> 03:28:26,799
Speaker 10: A.

3672
03:28:29,479 --> 03:28:32,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, you never heard of this. You're the linguistic scholar.

3673
03:28:32,959 --> 03:28:35,040
You're gonna tell me the origin of pride and arrogance?

3674
03:28:35,520 --> 03:28:36,639
You don't know the word stick is.

3675
03:28:37,840 --> 03:28:40,319
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean I'm a linguistic scholar.

3676
03:28:40,520 --> 03:28:42,799
Speaker 4: No, you said that the word arrogance is a more

3677
03:28:43,079 --> 03:28:45,360
modern term versus pride, and I mean.

3678
03:28:46,239 --> 03:28:49,399
Speaker 2: No, I'm I am one to admit my ignorance.

3679
03:28:50,239 --> 03:28:52,479
Speaker 4: Well, it sounds like this sounds like virtues, like you're

3680
03:28:52,520 --> 03:28:55,079
piety signaling. So you originally came here to talk.

3681
03:28:54,920 --> 03:28:58,639
Speaker 2: About how what you're talking about.

3682
03:28:59,600 --> 03:29:02,319
Speaker 4: But no, the first thing you said, Boomer, was that

3683
03:29:02,600 --> 03:29:04,360
I was prideful and you were humble.

3684
03:29:06,079 --> 03:29:08,440
Speaker 2: I never said that. But let's just get off that

3685
03:29:08,600 --> 03:29:09,159
for a second.

3686
03:29:09,200 --> 03:29:15,000
Speaker 41: But no, it's more seriously about the whole profit prophesizing.

3687
03:29:15,360 --> 03:29:16,159
Speaker 4: Word that's something.

3688
03:29:16,520 --> 03:29:17,120
Speaker 15: Okay, so.

3689
03:29:18,680 --> 03:29:21,280
Speaker 4: It's called it's not prophesiesing.

3690
03:29:21,840 --> 03:29:27,040
Speaker 9: Okay, well you know, okay, Well what's the difference not

3691
03:29:27,840 --> 03:29:36,639
a word? Well, the word that you said, yeah, yeah,

3692
03:29:36,719 --> 03:29:38,399
Well I'm just being honest.

3693
03:29:38,200 --> 03:29:38,840
Speaker 2: Like I don't know.

3694
03:29:39,079 --> 03:29:43,479
Speaker 4: That's okay, that's fine, go ahead, go ahead.

3695
03:29:45,920 --> 03:29:48,879
Speaker 2: I said, yeah, what's the difference.

3696
03:29:49,360 --> 03:29:51,959
Speaker 4: Between the office of a prophet in the Old Testament

3697
03:29:52,040 --> 03:29:54,680
sense of like giving new divine revelations or somebody who

3698
03:29:54,760 --> 03:29:58,600
speaks like as a preacher preaching against the generation's evil

3699
03:29:58,680 --> 03:30:00,399
or something like that. I mean, what I I'm saying

3700
03:30:00,520 --> 03:30:03,959
is that in the context of earlier in the debate tonight,

3701
03:30:04,040 --> 03:30:05,920
before you got here, we had a Mormon who was

3702
03:30:06,000 --> 03:30:08,440
saying that Joseph Smith is a new prophet, so he

3703
03:30:08,520 --> 03:30:11,639
gave new revelations. And one of the easy ways to

3704
03:30:11,840 --> 03:30:14,280
just cut that off right away is to say, no,

3705
03:30:14,559 --> 03:30:18,079
the New Testament teaches that when the Messiah comes, there

3706
03:30:18,159 --> 03:30:21,280
is an end to the Old Testament office of a prophet,

3707
03:30:21,360 --> 03:30:24,959
and that's why Jesus says that John was the last

3708
03:30:25,000 --> 03:30:25,559
of the prophets.

3709
03:30:26,680 --> 03:30:28,200
Speaker 2: But it's still possible to.

3710
03:30:30,600 --> 03:30:32,360
Speaker 4: Well, not in the sense, not in the sense of

3711
03:30:32,360 --> 03:30:36,920
there being new divine public revelations. So the when Paul

3712
03:30:36,959 --> 03:30:39,680
says in Galatians one that there's no new Gospel and

3713
03:30:39,719 --> 03:30:41,280
no new revelations, it's it's finished.

3714
03:30:43,520 --> 03:30:47,120
Speaker 65: But as far as any type of like prediction, it's

3715
03:30:47,159 --> 03:30:50,680
all like like nostradamins for example, that's all.

3716
03:30:50,840 --> 03:30:54,719
Speaker 4: That's all just fake yes, fake endgay, fake endgay.

3717
03:30:55,559 --> 03:30:57,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right.

3718
03:30:57,520 --> 03:31:00,319
Speaker 65: I just I just wanted to hear it spoken words.

3719
03:31:00,399 --> 03:31:02,799
I mean, and that's what I figured in my mind.

3720
03:31:03,079 --> 03:31:04,479
I just wanted to hear someone.

3721
03:31:04,319 --> 03:31:06,840
Speaker 4: Else say it. So thanks, Yeah, I agree with you.

3722
03:31:11,920 --> 03:31:16,520
It's open for him to debate tonight if you disagree. Sam,

3723
03:31:16,600 --> 03:31:18,520
what's up? I thought this Roe mcllay did was going

3724
03:31:18,559 --> 03:31:20,239
to come. He's like a journalist or something. Where's he

3725
03:31:20,520 --> 03:31:23,559
Let's see. I guess he's not gonna come.

3726
03:31:28,760 --> 03:31:29,120
Speaker 2: What's up?

3727
03:31:29,200 --> 03:31:29,440
Speaker 4: Sam?

3728
03:31:30,559 --> 03:31:31,040
Speaker 2: How's it going?

3729
03:31:31,200 --> 03:31:31,360
Speaker 45: Jay?

3730
03:31:31,559 --> 03:31:35,440
Speaker 22: A big fan recently got into your stuff from the

3731
03:31:36,559 --> 03:31:38,239
the debate you had with the Fresh and Fit.

3732
03:31:39,360 --> 03:31:41,040
Speaker 2: I just wanted to ask a question.

3733
03:31:42,760 --> 03:31:47,799
Speaker 22: Let's say someone's getting new into Islamic apologics apologetics. What

3734
03:31:47,959 --> 03:31:51,680
are some books they recommend or some videos they recommend

3735
03:31:52,600 --> 03:31:53,799
for someone looking.

3736
03:31:53,600 --> 03:31:57,680
Speaker 4: Into the topic become Orthodox. Don't worry about trying to

3737
03:31:57,760 --> 03:32:00,719
become an anti Islamic apologist, because there's no point in

3738
03:32:00,799 --> 03:32:02,879
doing apologetics if you're not going to be in the

3739
03:32:03,000 --> 03:32:09,319
Orthodox Church. Okay, I mean, I'm not trying. I'm not

3740
03:32:09,360 --> 03:32:12,479
trying to be rude. I'm just being straight up, being honest. Zachariah,

3741
03:32:12,520 --> 03:32:14,879
what's up? A good question, man, I appreciate it. Welcome,

3742
03:32:14,959 --> 03:32:21,559
glad to have you over here. David says, for five dollars,

3743
03:32:21,680 --> 03:32:25,079
praise to Yakub he has created us. Wait a minute,

3744
03:32:25,079 --> 03:32:28,159
I thought Yakub created us to be with the devils,

3745
03:32:28,200 --> 03:32:30,479
aren't we? So I'm not going to praise Yakub for

3746
03:32:30,559 --> 03:32:32,680
making me a double So I don't know about that, David,

3747
03:32:33,120 --> 03:32:35,159
Jake Burne, it's one dollar? Are we only saying the

3748
03:32:35,200 --> 03:32:38,760
Lord's prayer? Because to pray like this is to not

3749
03:32:39,280 --> 03:32:43,360
go babbling like pagans When I pray my morning prayer

3750
03:32:43,440 --> 03:32:48,440
it seems like babbling. Well, Jesus himself did wrote prayers,

3751
03:32:48,719 --> 03:32:51,840
so you know, praying the psalms is not babbling. Or

3752
03:32:52,079 --> 03:32:54,239
or just because the prayers are wrote prayers, does it

3753
03:32:54,360 --> 03:32:57,280
make them babbling? He says, vain repetition, so it's not

3754
03:32:57,360 --> 03:32:59,719
inherently run to have repetition. Zacharie, what's up.

3755
03:33:00,879 --> 03:33:03,479
Speaker 2: Hey, j I kind of had a question.

3756
03:33:04,159 --> 03:33:07,879
Speaker 56: I don't know if this is like on topic per se,

3757
03:33:10,000 --> 03:33:13,360
but I have a friend who pro proposed the idea

3758
03:33:13,479 --> 03:33:18,920
that Satan is a relatively new Judeo Christian philosophy that

3759
03:33:19,120 --> 03:33:23,360
came from when I came from Babylon, when the Jews

3760
03:33:23,479 --> 03:33:24,879
were free from captivity.

3761
03:33:25,000 --> 03:33:26,520
Speaker 2: So I don't I don't know.

3762
03:33:26,639 --> 03:33:28,680
Speaker 4: I mean, Satan, Satan is in Satan is in the

3763
03:33:28,680 --> 03:33:31,520
Book of Genesis, so that precedes Babylonian captivity. So how

3764
03:33:31,520 --> 03:33:33,600
would he be a philosophy that's Babylonian.

3765
03:33:34,879 --> 03:33:37,079
Speaker 56: Yeah, I mean that, that's what I said, and I

3766
03:33:37,239 --> 03:33:39,799
just didn't know if that was what you would say.

3767
03:33:39,840 --> 03:33:42,280
Speaker 4: Also, No, I think that, Yeah, I mean, I mean,

3768
03:33:42,319 --> 03:33:45,920
there's not just Genesis. There's other texts that mentioned Satan

3769
03:33:46,200 --> 03:33:50,479
prior to the Babylonian captivity. But usually when people say this,

3770
03:33:50,600 --> 03:33:54,000
they're just repeating what some liberal scholars said. So I

3771
03:33:54,040 --> 03:33:56,079
don't even know if that's even in vogue amongst liberal

3772
03:33:56,120 --> 03:33:59,440
scholars anymore. Maybe it is, I don't know, but yeah,

3773
03:33:59,440 --> 03:34:01,159
I think you could look at just look up the

3774
03:34:01,280 --> 03:34:04,079
references to Satan. Satan appears in the Book of Job

3775
03:34:04,239 --> 03:34:07,799
so that's probabor to the Babylonian captivity. Uh, and Donnis,

3776
03:34:08,120 --> 03:34:11,319
what's up man? We had a wild night tonight. Shout

3777
03:34:11,360 --> 03:34:13,719
out to Tristana, shout out to Father Deacon, and I

3778
03:34:13,840 --> 03:34:16,520
shout out to Rachel. Shout out to Donatas shout out

3779
03:34:16,520 --> 03:34:20,639
to all you based homeboys and homegirls. In the chat,

3780
03:34:22,079 --> 03:34:25,559
you guys missed some Mormon madness. So I think it's

3781
03:34:25,559 --> 03:34:27,719
about the It's about the first Mormon that we've had

3782
03:34:27,760 --> 03:34:30,239
to actually come debate. It was wild that guy was like,

3783
03:34:31,440 --> 03:34:36,399
that was exciting, and it's interesting because I don't I

3784
03:34:36,440 --> 03:34:38,600
don't remember there ever being a Mormon to come debate

3785
03:34:39,159 --> 03:34:43,719
that I can recall. And Donnis, what's up? You have

3786
03:34:43,760 --> 03:34:44,360
to unmute man?

3787
03:34:46,520 --> 03:34:51,479
Speaker 2: Hello? Hello, Yeah, okay. I had a question. I'm Greek Orthodox.

3788
03:34:52,799 --> 03:34:55,680
Speaker 45: I had a question on an objection about the Council

3789
03:34:55,719 --> 03:34:57,280
of Trullough canon one oh one?

3790
03:34:59,719 --> 03:35:02,799
Speaker 4: Is is this the one about community in the hand?

3791
03:35:03,639 --> 03:35:03,879
Speaker 2: Yeah?

3792
03:35:05,360 --> 03:35:07,319
Speaker 4: I mean I don't even understand why this isn't What

3793
03:35:07,479 --> 03:35:09,479
is this supposed to be objection to? Because the Church

3794
03:35:09,520 --> 03:35:11,680
can determine at different times, in different places how to

3795
03:35:11,719 --> 03:35:15,680
apply the canons. So didn't Luigi are responded to what

3796
03:35:15,799 --> 03:35:16,200
he said?

3797
03:35:16,280 --> 03:35:16,440
Speaker 2: Right?

3798
03:35:18,079 --> 03:35:20,559
Speaker 4: Luigi? In his video he responded to Voice of Reason,

3799
03:35:20,600 --> 03:35:25,760
if that's what you're referring to. Yeah, yeah, Luigi, I

3800
03:35:25,840 --> 03:35:28,200
have it on my wall. Look at Luigi's response and

3801
03:35:28,280 --> 03:35:32,319
he talks about I think Price's translation is the is

3802
03:35:32,520 --> 03:35:39,159
Luigi's response, So, but good question. Mexican. Wait a minute,

3803
03:35:39,159 --> 03:35:41,959
I'm double O seven. This is Mexican double O seven

3804
03:35:43,200 --> 03:35:46,399
A bro about the I'm literally about to smoke you, Bro.

3805
03:35:46,799 --> 03:35:49,920
I barely smoke you because I got like a license

3806
03:35:49,959 --> 03:35:57,319
to kill or whatever? Barely bro? A do you barely?

3807
03:35:57,639 --> 03:35:59,159
Do you barely got a license to kill?

3808
03:35:59,239 --> 03:35:59,639
Speaker 2: Bro or what?

3809
03:36:01,959 --> 03:36:02,000
Speaker 10: Not?

3810
03:36:02,239 --> 03:36:03,799
Speaker 2: Really just a fan.

3811
03:36:04,719 --> 03:36:09,440
Speaker 66: The question is I've been feeling a pool towards Orthodoxy.

3812
03:36:10,520 --> 03:36:15,479
I've been with Catholics in the past. Franciscan has Benedictines Dominicans.

3813
03:36:16,920 --> 03:36:17,639
Speaker 15: They have like a.

3814
03:36:18,079 --> 03:36:22,239
Speaker 66: Day prayer, like the Liturgy of the Hours. I'm just

3815
03:36:22,399 --> 03:36:24,680
wondering if being Orthodox.

3816
03:36:24,360 --> 03:36:27,000
Speaker 2: Is like the prayer, similar to.

3817
03:36:28,959 --> 03:36:31,959
Speaker 66: Like the prayer lifestyle, is it's similar to like the

3818
03:36:32,000 --> 03:36:33,120
way your church practicing.

3819
03:36:33,440 --> 03:36:37,079
Speaker 4: There's some there's some similarity except and there's also some differences.

3820
03:36:37,239 --> 03:36:39,239
So I remember the Liturgy of the Hours and all

3821
03:36:39,280 --> 03:36:40,680
that when I was a Roman Catholic.

3822
03:36:40,479 --> 03:36:40,559
Speaker 10: And.

3823
03:36:42,319 --> 03:36:45,520
Speaker 4: I remember doing that. It's really going to depend on

3824
03:36:45,959 --> 03:36:48,280
like where you're at in your Orthodox life with your

3825
03:36:48,280 --> 03:36:52,319
spiritual Father, where he'll advise you on what kind of

3826
03:36:52,399 --> 03:36:56,479
prayer role and so forth. But there are some similarities.

3827
03:36:56,600 --> 03:36:58,719
But obviously it's not going to be the same types

3828
03:36:58,719 --> 03:37:03,680
of Roman Catholic prayers. But good question. Retweet the goods.

3829
03:37:07,760 --> 03:37:13,879
Retweet the goods. If you want to support the stream,

3830
03:37:13,920 --> 03:37:16,280
you can do so via a stream lives. Also heading

3831
03:37:16,280 --> 03:37:20,520
over to chalk dot com the best in supplementation. We

3832
03:37:20,680 --> 03:37:22,239
love chalk dot com. Do you want to unmute? I

3833
03:37:22,280 --> 03:37:25,159
can't read your Sanskrit or whatever your name is?

3834
03:37:27,520 --> 03:37:28,600
Speaker 2: Hey boy, did you hear me?

3835
03:37:29,440 --> 03:37:30,159
Speaker 4: Merely? What's up?

3836
03:37:31,479 --> 03:37:32,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't.

3837
03:37:33,399 --> 03:37:38,040
Speaker 67: I'm pretty sure you because I've seen you in No

3838
03:37:38,200 --> 03:37:43,879
Kyle's videos. A. Yeah, I'm guessing at the g W

3839
03:37:44,120 --> 03:37:50,360
people and Johoway's witnesses. Yeah, but you being like, do

3840
03:37:50,479 --> 03:37:52,159
you like guys see the Bibles?

3841
03:37:52,440 --> 03:37:54,200
Speaker 2: Afrlone long? Do you guys?

3842
03:37:54,760 --> 03:37:57,079
Speaker 4: Is what I can't hear? You see the Bible as what?

3843
03:37:58,120 --> 03:38:01,079
Speaker 67: But do you guys believe in the Bible as like

3844
03:38:01,319 --> 03:38:03,200
ultimate authority or do you guys.

3845
03:38:03,040 --> 03:38:05,920
Speaker 2: Kind of go with tradition on certain fans as well?

3846
03:38:06,680 --> 03:38:09,840
Speaker 4: They all work together, so the Bible or necessity tradition,

3847
03:38:10,000 --> 03:38:12,760
and the Bible and tradition necessitated the bishops and the church,

3848
03:38:12,920 --> 03:38:14,840
so they're all they all work together. There's not like

3849
03:38:15,319 --> 03:38:17,040
one of those that's the authority.

3850
03:38:19,559 --> 03:38:22,079
Speaker 67: But like if someone in your church was teaching something

3851
03:38:22,159 --> 03:38:26,239
that was like condemned, you, guys wouldn't actually listened to

3852
03:38:26,319 --> 03:38:28,600
that personal right.

3853
03:38:28,559 --> 03:38:31,920
Speaker 4: So there would be multiple authorities that he's going against,

3854
03:38:32,200 --> 03:38:34,360
namely the Bible and the tradition and the bishops.

3855
03:38:36,120 --> 03:38:38,559
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, So that's where like you kind

3856
03:38:38,600 --> 03:38:47,799
of disagree with the Catholics. Yeah, didn't you say that?

3857
03:38:48,159 --> 03:38:50,600
Luigi responded to Voice to Reason? Are you going to

3858
03:38:50,639 --> 03:38:51,639
debate Voice of Reason?

3859
03:38:53,360 --> 03:38:55,360
Speaker 4: I didn't make the video response to Voice to Reason.

3860
03:38:55,479 --> 03:38:59,360
I DM voice. I DMed him and he ignored the

3861
03:38:59,680 --> 03:39:00,319
DM so.

3862
03:39:02,799 --> 03:39:04,479
Speaker 67: Because I was just wondering if you were a debate

3863
03:39:04,639 --> 03:39:07,479
because it kind of misrepresents people.

3864
03:39:08,799 --> 03:39:12,000
Speaker 4: I do agree with that, and he never responded to

3865
03:39:12,079 --> 03:39:13,799
the d M. So I don't think he's interested in

3866
03:39:13,879 --> 03:39:19,040
a debate with me. Oh that's an awsome question, bro, Yeah,

3867
03:39:19,399 --> 03:39:34,600
good questions. Appreciate that. Rickle Pickle, Rickle Hello, yeap.

3868
03:39:36,239 --> 03:39:41,399
Speaker 2: Yo bro? Sorry Gay? Yeah, yeah, Hi Jay.

3869
03:39:41,799 --> 03:39:46,840
Speaker 68: I'm another nominational believer in private scriptural and I had

3870
03:39:46,840 --> 03:39:51,440
a question about the biblical condens So from another nominational perspective,

3871
03:39:51,559 --> 03:39:54,879
I believe in the sixty six books Candon I wanted

3872
03:39:54,920 --> 03:39:58,360
to ask you a question as an eph believer, what's

3873
03:39:58,399 --> 03:40:00,799
your like do you have any ment? Also look into

3874
03:40:01,239 --> 03:40:05,200
concerning like canonization the earliest kind of the church, Like

3875
03:40:05,360 --> 03:40:06,799
when was scripture colonized?

3876
03:40:06,799 --> 03:40:07,559
Speaker 2: How many books?

3877
03:40:07,680 --> 03:40:09,879
Speaker 4: Like what is the Yeah, it's not it's in the

3878
03:40:09,959 --> 03:40:13,760
Orthodox view, it's canonized by Trollo really late. So that's

3879
03:40:13,840 --> 03:40:16,239
the ecumenical council that lists the canon.

3880
03:40:17,319 --> 03:40:19,479
Speaker 68: Okay, so a late kind is where you get support

3881
03:40:19,520 --> 03:40:22,920
instead of an earlier kind of correct, All right?

3882
03:40:23,000 --> 03:40:23,200
Speaker 2: Cool?

3883
03:40:23,239 --> 03:40:25,959
Speaker 68: So would that also include like traditions that came late

3884
03:40:26,159 --> 03:40:29,399
or is that only like when the when that council

3885
03:40:29,479 --> 03:40:32,680
took place, that's when all of the things that would turn.

3886
03:40:32,559 --> 03:40:35,280
Speaker 2: It departs were ratified. So like, does that include later

3887
03:40:35,399 --> 03:40:35,959
works from.

3888
03:40:35,840 --> 03:40:39,000
Speaker 68: Like eight hundred and seven hundred or were these things

3889
03:40:39,079 --> 03:40:42,559
done as writings that primarily came from the early church

3890
03:40:42,600 --> 03:40:43,360
in the first country.

3891
03:40:43,959 --> 03:40:46,520
Speaker 4: Well, the canon, the canon would be the Bible. So

3892
03:40:47,079 --> 03:40:48,440
what do I don't understand what you mean?

3893
03:40:49,079 --> 03:40:50,959
Speaker 2: Like how much how many books would be in that

3894
03:40:51,120 --> 03:40:52,319
is what a masket like? Right?

3895
03:40:52,399 --> 03:40:55,959
Speaker 4: So the Orthodox Bible is kind of basically the canon

3896
03:40:56,159 --> 03:40:58,520
that the Roman Calloic Church has because the Eastern Church

3897
03:40:58,559 --> 03:41:00,879
and the Western Church had to do or canonical books.

3898
03:41:02,200 --> 03:41:06,079
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, so basically the same ones. Do theyre aquicol?

3899
03:41:06,559 --> 03:41:08,639
So do you have this seam the paper for writings

3900
03:41:08,680 --> 03:41:12,040
as well? Like, okay, cool, all right, I'll take a

3901
03:41:12,079 --> 03:41:12,440
look into that.

3902
03:41:12,719 --> 03:41:16,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm trying to think of I've done debates with

3903
03:41:16,559 --> 03:41:18,600
Protestants on the canon. Look up the debate that we

3904
03:41:18,680 --> 03:41:23,120
did with Dale the Protestant and then the debate I

3905
03:41:23,200 --> 03:41:26,479
did with Pedro the Protestant. Those are debates where we

3906
03:41:26,600 --> 03:41:29,959
talked about the canon. And I've done a lot of

3907
03:41:30,000 --> 03:41:31,879
talks on the canon. I just can't think of specifically

3908
03:41:31,959 --> 03:41:37,040
what they were. Were titled meme Rose, what's up?

3909
03:41:37,120 --> 03:41:37,360
Speaker 2: Dude?

3910
03:41:45,520 --> 03:41:49,639
Speaker 4: I think tonight might have been my largest numbers because

3911
03:41:49,680 --> 03:41:52,479
but that was probably people being dumping their their chat

3912
03:41:52,559 --> 03:41:55,399
into my chat. I think we hit seventeen Do we

3913
03:41:55,479 --> 03:41:57,159
hit seventeen hundred tonight? Max?

3914
03:41:58,479 --> 03:42:02,760
Speaker 2: What's that? Man? Hey? Good hearing a cool question.

3915
03:42:02,879 --> 03:42:06,680
Speaker 30: So what are your views on the Virgin Mary like

3916
03:42:06,799 --> 03:42:09,040
a she perpetually version?

3917
03:42:09,680 --> 03:42:09,879
Speaker 4: Yes?

3918
03:42:10,319 --> 03:42:16,559
Speaker 2: Or wait? What scripture? What scriptures show that.

3919
03:42:18,239 --> 03:42:21,000
Speaker 4: Zeko forty four that the Prince who is the Messiah

3920
03:42:21,159 --> 03:42:24,840
exits the temple and the door remains shut and he

3921
03:42:25,120 --> 03:42:27,760
miraculously goes through it and it never is opened.

3922
03:42:29,479 --> 03:42:38,159
Speaker 2: So when he knew or not, what does that mean, Joseph, Yeah, Matthew, and.

3923
03:42:38,200 --> 03:42:42,040
Speaker 4: That means what Jerome explains in his letter against Silvettius,

3924
03:42:42,120 --> 03:42:44,239
that Jesus says, I'm with you till the end of

3925
03:42:44,280 --> 03:42:46,079
the world. Does that mean he's not with us after that?

3926
03:42:48,680 --> 03:42:51,559
Speaker 2: No? No, No, to know someone like in the concept of.

3927
03:42:52,200 --> 03:42:54,760
Speaker 4: It says he knew or not till. And I'm saying

3928
03:42:54,799 --> 03:42:58,000
the whole debate hinges on till doesn't necessitate that after

3929
03:42:58,200 --> 03:42:59,079
till it happened.

3930
03:43:00,239 --> 03:43:04,639
Speaker 41: No, But what about judges Mans twenty five when they say,

3931
03:43:04,760 --> 03:43:06,639
but the men were not markets.

3932
03:43:06,879 --> 03:43:09,040
Speaker 2: So the man said his conquentye and brought her fourth

3933
03:43:09,120 --> 03:43:09,680
onto them.

3934
03:43:09,639 --> 03:43:12,440
Speaker 4: And they knew her because you not hear what The

3935
03:43:12,520 --> 03:43:15,360
debate is not over whether it's the debate is over

3936
03:43:15,399 --> 03:43:16,319
the word till in.

3937
03:43:16,719 --> 03:43:19,680
Speaker 2: That text, And I'm asking if I knew her, how

3938
03:43:19,719 --> 03:43:20,520
does he know her?

3939
03:43:21,719 --> 03:43:23,879
Speaker 4: The text it says that he did not know her,

3940
03:43:24,120 --> 03:43:26,239
and then it says till right.

3941
03:43:28,120 --> 03:43:28,600
Speaker 2: I knew her?

3942
03:43:28,760 --> 03:43:30,879
Speaker 4: Not right, And what's the rest of it?

3943
03:43:32,399 --> 03:43:33,719
Speaker 2: She had with her first one?

3944
03:43:33,799 --> 03:43:37,399
Speaker 4: So till so till does not necessitate that he did

3945
03:43:37,559 --> 03:43:42,239
know her after That's what I've been saying. So so

3946
03:43:42,399 --> 03:43:44,959
the same word till is used when Jesus says I'm

3947
03:43:45,000 --> 03:43:46,399
with you till the end of the world. Does that

3948
03:43:46,520 --> 03:43:47,319
mean he's not after?

3949
03:43:49,840 --> 03:43:51,760
Speaker 2: No, No, he was talking about he was talking to

3950
03:43:52,799 --> 03:43:54,399
something else. But this is context.

3951
03:43:54,520 --> 03:43:57,120
Speaker 4: Do not understand what the point is, so you can't

3952
03:43:57,159 --> 03:43:57,959
grasp the argument.

3953
03:43:58,760 --> 03:44:01,159
Speaker 2: I completely grasp to trust me, I do this all

3954
03:44:01,239 --> 03:44:01,959
day with Catholics.

3955
03:44:03,399 --> 03:44:05,079
Speaker 4: Well then hold on. If you do this all day

3956
03:44:05,120 --> 03:44:06,799
with Catholics, then you would have already heard this argument,

3957
03:44:06,840 --> 03:44:07,959
would have known what tills about.

3958
03:44:08,120 --> 03:44:09,959
Speaker 2: I understand. I'm just trying to build in my argument.

3959
03:44:09,959 --> 03:44:12,000
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, Well then hold on, then you don't know

3960
03:44:12,000 --> 03:44:12,920
actually know this argument.

3961
03:44:13,879 --> 03:44:14,319
Speaker 2: Yes I do.

3962
03:44:14,520 --> 03:44:18,120
Speaker 18: I'm building my argument about her not being a virtual version.

3963
03:44:18,920 --> 03:44:22,840
Speaker 4: Well, how does the prince exit the door and it

3964
03:44:23,040 --> 03:44:24,120
never is opened?

3965
03:44:26,520 --> 03:44:27,520
Speaker 2: That has nothing to do with merit?

3966
03:44:27,959 --> 03:44:30,159
Speaker 4: Well, how do you know that? What door does the Messiah?

3967
03:44:30,159 --> 03:44:30,840
The prince exit?

3968
03:44:34,319 --> 03:44:35,639
Speaker 2: What door does the Messiah?

3969
03:44:36,360 --> 03:44:37,719
Speaker 4: What do you mean how do you know it doesn't

3970
03:44:37,719 --> 03:44:39,159
have anything to do with Mary? You didn't even know

3971
03:44:39,200 --> 03:44:40,680
what you don't know what verse on the target?

3972
03:44:41,799 --> 03:44:42,360
Speaker 2: What's the verse?

3973
03:44:42,399 --> 03:44:45,479
Speaker 4: Could I cited it at the very beginning. I read

3974
03:44:45,520 --> 03:44:48,559
it to you, he said, Ezekiel right forty four. Correct

3975
03:44:49,239 --> 03:44:51,920
the door that the Messiah exits that never opens.

3976
03:44:54,000 --> 03:44:57,440
Speaker 18: Ezekiel forty four the Messiah.

3977
03:44:57,680 --> 03:44:59,280
Speaker 2: Let me see, I'm trying to figure out because I

3978
03:44:59,319 --> 03:44:59,920
can't find them.

3979
03:45:00,799 --> 03:45:02,760
Speaker 4: You can't find it, equal forty four. I thought you

3980
03:45:02,879 --> 03:45:04,959
deal with this every day with Catholics.

3981
03:45:05,760 --> 03:45:08,000
Speaker 2: Oh, I never heard this from a Catholic right now?

3982
03:45:08,159 --> 03:45:10,559
Speaker 4: Well, okay, but did you hear the till argument or

3983
03:45:10,639 --> 03:45:11,639
was that the first time you heard it?

3984
03:45:11,840 --> 03:45:12,040
Speaker 69: Yes?

3985
03:45:12,879 --> 03:45:13,959
Speaker 2: No, no, no, it's still arguments.

3986
03:45:14,159 --> 03:45:19,000
Speaker 53: It's it all on void honestly, because the whole context.

3987
03:45:18,799 --> 03:45:20,600
Speaker 2: Is he knew her not so anyways.

3988
03:45:20,760 --> 03:45:23,360
Speaker 4: But but why did you stop there and not read

3989
03:45:23,399 --> 03:45:24,959
the rest of the verse when I asked you? So

3990
03:45:25,239 --> 03:45:28,520
you're just assuming your positions he knew her, not till. Oh,

3991
03:45:28,639 --> 03:45:30,959
so it does say till, so you intentionally so this

3992
03:45:31,079 --> 03:45:36,000
whole time you intentionally didn't say it. So you intentionally

3993
03:45:36,079 --> 03:45:37,920
didn't say till when you knew it was there.

3994
03:45:39,000 --> 03:45:39,760
Speaker 2: But he knew her.

3995
03:45:39,879 --> 03:45:43,040
Speaker 4: After it doesn't say that. Okay, So why does he

3996
03:45:43,120 --> 03:45:48,079
have kid what why brothers of the lord that brothers

3997
03:45:48,159 --> 03:45:50,280
of the Lord can mean cousins. You know that since

3998
03:45:50,319 --> 03:45:52,200
You've dealt with this all the time with Catholics.

3999
03:45:53,239 --> 03:45:55,120
Speaker 41: Yeah, I know, but it's funny that you guys keep

4000
03:45:55,159 --> 03:45:56,239
switching what the Bible says.

4001
03:45:56,920 --> 03:45:59,319
Speaker 4: So all right, but the Bible doesn't tell you that.

4002
03:45:59,559 --> 03:46:01,600
That's your interpretation of it, assuming your.

4003
03:46:01,520 --> 03:46:03,360
Speaker 2: Position, But it doesn't that.

4004
03:46:04,120 --> 03:46:09,600
Speaker 4: They doesn't say that. It doesn't say his his biological children.

4005
03:46:09,799 --> 03:46:10,719
That's your interpretation.

4006
03:46:12,600 --> 03:46:14,280
Speaker 2: You mean you mean when he was going fast, they

4007
03:46:14,319 --> 03:46:15,000
weren't his brethren.

4008
03:46:16,559 --> 03:46:19,479
Speaker 4: All of the Jews called themselves brethren. Jews called themselves

4009
03:46:19,520 --> 03:46:24,520
brethren all the time. That doesn't prove your position. By

4010
03:46:24,559 --> 03:46:26,520
the way, how do you even know what the Bible is?

4011
03:46:26,639 --> 03:46:26,680
Speaker 2: Like?

4012
03:46:26,719 --> 03:46:27,760
Speaker 4: How do you have the right Bible?

4013
03:46:29,239 --> 03:46:32,399
Speaker 2: Well? I know the King's Ampible is the most fruitful Bible.

4014
03:46:32,440 --> 03:46:34,159
Speaker 4: So that's the Wait, how do you know that's the

4015
03:46:34,239 --> 03:46:36,079
right one because.

4016
03:46:35,840 --> 03:46:37,079
Speaker 2: That's the most fruitful and that's the.

4017
03:46:37,399 --> 03:46:39,360
Speaker 4: Most fruitful Bible. What does that even mean?

4018
03:46:40,639 --> 03:46:43,159
Speaker 2: Well, I'm sure you know I shall know them by

4019
03:46:43,200 --> 03:46:43,879
their fruits.

4020
03:46:43,680 --> 03:46:49,280
Speaker 4: Right, So the your subjective idea of what the fruits

4021
03:46:49,319 --> 03:46:51,159
are is what tells you the right Bible, and it's

4022
03:46:51,159 --> 03:46:51,959
the King James Bible.

4023
03:46:52,879 --> 03:46:54,239
Speaker 2: Do you know anything about King?

4024
03:46:55,040 --> 03:46:56,600
Speaker 4: I know all about the history of the church, and

4025
03:46:56,799 --> 03:46:57,520
let's talk about it.

4026
03:47:00,120 --> 03:47:02,840
Speaker 2: Christians are the Church. You're not a Christian, you're an Orthodox.

4027
03:47:02,959 --> 03:47:06,200
Speaker 4: So please, okay, where where was your Where was your sect?

4028
03:47:06,319 --> 03:47:07,319
Before the king James?

4029
03:47:09,239 --> 03:47:11,799
Speaker 2: My second started with Jesus?

4030
03:47:13,159 --> 03:47:15,399
Speaker 4: Okay, and who believed what you believe in the first,

4031
03:47:15,440 --> 03:47:16,280
second or third century?

4032
03:47:16,319 --> 03:47:18,120
Speaker 2: Here's a lively Peter was a lively star.

4033
03:47:18,440 --> 03:47:19,959
Speaker 4: What are you even talking about? Who believed what you

4034
03:47:20,079 --> 03:47:22,319
believe in the second or third century? Give one person,

4035
03:47:22,719 --> 03:47:23,200
I don't.

4036
03:47:23,399 --> 03:47:25,040
Speaker 2: I don't I follow the vibe. I don't follow what

4037
03:47:25,319 --> 03:47:25,600
men do.

4038
03:47:25,840 --> 03:47:29,000
Speaker 4: So so you didn't have any representative in those centuries.

4039
03:47:28,719 --> 03:47:31,680
Speaker 2: Right, well, representative, my representative.

4040
03:47:31,280 --> 03:47:34,120
Speaker 4: Jesus, pro well, Jesus said that the church. Jesus said

4041
03:47:34,159 --> 03:47:36,360
the gate. Jesus said, the gates of Hell would not

4042
03:47:36,440 --> 03:47:38,479
prevail against the church. And so you set the church

4043
03:47:38,559 --> 03:47:42,920
up at his first advent? Where was your sect in

4044
03:47:43,040 --> 03:47:45,520
those centuries since the gates of Hell didn't prevail against it?

4045
03:47:46,399 --> 03:47:49,600
Speaker 2: I'll tell you when when he said and on this frock.

4046
03:47:50,879 --> 03:47:53,239
Speaker 4: Where was your sect in the second or third century?

4047
03:47:53,639 --> 03:47:55,799
It was right there would I just you're that stupid.

4048
03:47:56,120 --> 03:47:58,040
Your sect was in the second or third century when

4049
03:47:58,120 --> 03:47:59,559
Jesus said that in the first century.

4050
03:48:00,239 --> 03:48:00,959
Speaker 2: I'm a boring again.

4051
03:48:01,719 --> 03:48:04,680
Speaker 4: Where was your sect in the second, third, fourth, fifth,

4052
03:48:04,680 --> 03:48:05,200
sixth century?

4053
03:48:06,280 --> 03:48:06,920
Speaker 2: What sect?

4054
03:48:07,280 --> 03:48:07,920
Speaker 64: I don't follow?

4055
03:48:08,120 --> 03:48:11,200
Speaker 4: So you don't have any representatives? Do you even understand

4056
03:48:11,239 --> 03:48:14,319
the arm Can you even understand? You don't understand the

4057
03:48:14,399 --> 03:48:15,079
argument I'm making?

4058
03:48:15,200 --> 03:48:15,840
Speaker 69: You follow me?

4059
03:48:16,319 --> 03:48:17,600
Speaker 2: I follow what the Bible stays?

4060
03:48:19,120 --> 03:48:20,840
Speaker 4: Do you understand the argument I'm making?

4061
03:48:22,520 --> 03:48:23,079
Speaker 16: You understand that?

4062
03:48:23,879 --> 03:48:26,120
Speaker 4: So you can't restate my argument? You're incapable of it.

4063
03:48:28,520 --> 03:48:29,760
You don't know what the word it is, so that

4064
03:48:29,879 --> 03:48:31,479
you don't even know what the word incapable means. So

4065
03:48:31,600 --> 03:48:42,520
this is a complete idiot, Matt. My new standard is

4066
03:48:42,559 --> 03:48:45,719
that if a person is literally incapable of restating what

4067
03:48:46,079 --> 03:48:50,959
argument I'm making, it's time to move on. Matt.

4068
03:48:54,479 --> 03:48:55,559
Speaker 2: Hey, Jay's going by.

4069
03:48:56,479 --> 03:48:56,879
Speaker 4: What's up?

4070
03:48:59,280 --> 03:48:59,479
Speaker 2: Hey?

4071
03:49:00,920 --> 03:49:02,959
Speaker 28: Uh, I guess I'm.

4072
03:49:04,360 --> 03:49:04,799
Speaker 2: About what.

4073
03:49:06,959 --> 03:49:07,600
Speaker 4: You're cutting out?

4074
03:49:07,639 --> 03:49:07,760
Speaker 2: Man?

4075
03:49:07,799 --> 03:49:08,079
Speaker 4: I can't.

4076
03:49:10,760 --> 03:49:17,360
Speaker 70: Oh, I'm sorry. Something better is still pretty bad. So

4077
03:49:17,440 --> 03:49:20,600
I guess on that last topic about where our sect was,

4078
03:49:20,760 --> 03:49:25,159
because I'd be considered a non nominational Christian. Also, I

4079
03:49:25,239 --> 03:49:29,680
guess our argument would be is that I would say

4080
03:49:29,840 --> 03:49:35,959
I don't think the Orthodox Church or the Catholic Church

4081
03:49:36,120 --> 03:49:40,479
in hole, like just because you're a member of that church.

4082
03:49:40,799 --> 03:49:43,440
That doesn't mean you were a guaranteed salvation or you're

4083
03:49:43,719 --> 03:49:44,399
actually a.

4084
03:49:44,440 --> 03:49:47,600
Speaker 4: Follow absolutely nothing to do with answering the question at hand.

4085
03:49:47,799 --> 03:49:51,479
Speaker 70: So I mean so, so, I guess my My answer

4086
03:49:51,520 --> 03:49:53,760
would be that the universal Church.

4087
03:49:53,879 --> 03:49:56,479
Speaker 4: The answer is that you guys are incapable of understanding

4088
03:49:56,520 --> 03:50:01,760
the question. Can you restate what the argument is?

4089
03:50:06,280 --> 03:50:08,360
Speaker 2: I guess, I guess No, I guess I couldn't.

4090
03:50:09,159 --> 03:50:10,799
Speaker 4: So did Jesus set up a church?

4091
03:50:12,879 --> 03:50:13,440
Speaker 8: Yes, okay?

4092
03:50:14,159 --> 03:50:16,319
Speaker 4: Did he say that the gates of l would not

4093
03:50:16,440 --> 03:50:20,159
prevail over the church that he's setting up, Yes, okay,

4094
03:50:20,520 --> 03:50:25,079
But we're to believe that it's truly non denominational Christianity,

4095
03:50:25,120 --> 03:50:29,479
which didn't exist for centuries until the present. What last

4096
03:50:29,600 --> 03:50:34,840
sixty years? And so did the gates of l prevail

4097
03:50:34,920 --> 03:50:37,799
against the church throughout those centuries?

4098
03:50:39,040 --> 03:50:39,079
Speaker 11: No?

4099
03:50:39,479 --> 03:50:40,280
Speaker 15: And how is that not?

4100
03:50:40,559 --> 03:50:42,840
Speaker 4: How is that the case when there were no non

4101
03:50:42,879 --> 03:50:44,920
denominationals for that all that time period?

4102
03:50:46,239 --> 03:50:48,639
Speaker 70: I would say the entire time period, it would be

4103
03:50:48,719 --> 03:50:49,520
non denominational.

4104
03:50:50,239 --> 03:50:52,159
Speaker 2: Just because you were titled.

4105
03:50:51,920 --> 03:50:55,520
Speaker 70: Under that church and you attended the church didn't mean

4106
03:50:55,559 --> 03:50:58,440
you were part of christ church, would be my argument.

4107
03:50:59,079 --> 03:51:01,920
Speaker 4: I mean, are you still are you? Are you serious?

4108
03:51:02,000 --> 03:51:05,200
Or are you trolling? I mean, I like so you

4109
03:51:05,360 --> 03:51:09,040
think so so the people So, the people at the

4110
03:51:09,079 --> 03:51:12,280
Council of Nicea were non denominational Christians, even though they

4111
03:51:12,360 --> 03:51:20,239
call themselves Orthodox Catholics. Yeah, okay, okay, I mean I

4112
03:51:20,319 --> 03:51:22,959
feel I feel you're a retard. This is that's so

4113
03:51:23,079 --> 03:51:24,600
stupid it's not even worth replying to.

4114
03:51:25,959 --> 03:51:26,000
Speaker 16: So.

4115
03:51:29,639 --> 03:51:33,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, Alfanatius had a strip mall, and uh, you know

4116
03:51:33,120 --> 03:51:35,239
a lot of people felt like he was a bishop,

4117
03:51:35,799 --> 03:51:41,360
but actually there was an ancient Alexandrian strip mall where

4118
03:51:41,399 --> 03:51:42,319
he rented out.

4119
03:51:43,280 --> 03:51:43,399
Speaker 58: Uh.

4120
03:51:43,600 --> 03:51:46,760
Speaker 4: They didn't have uh, monster trucks back in those days

4121
03:51:46,799 --> 03:51:50,959
like the non nominational churches today. They had horse truck

4122
03:51:51,200 --> 03:51:53,799
rallies instead of monster truck rallies. And that's what the

4123
03:51:53,879 --> 03:52:00,840
true Christians were up to. What's up, unmute, good evening, Jay?

4124
03:52:02,000 --> 03:52:06,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, can you hear me? Just fine? Yep? I have

4125
03:52:06,920 --> 03:52:09,159
like a shower thought question if you have a second

4126
03:52:09,200 --> 03:52:09,360
for that.

4127
03:52:09,600 --> 03:52:10,959
Speaker 4: This sounds gay? What do you want?

4128
03:52:12,680 --> 03:52:15,000
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on? Like dinosaurs?

4129
03:52:16,879 --> 03:52:18,680
Speaker 4: Show that I don't want to hear nothing about you

4130
03:52:18,799 --> 03:52:23,120
in the shower magnum. What's up that dude's got a

4131
03:52:23,159 --> 03:52:26,200
crush on dinosaurs? He's in the in the shower fantasizing

4132
03:52:26,200 --> 03:52:28,079
about dinosaurs and m's come talk to me about that.

4133
03:52:29,520 --> 03:52:35,520
What's up, man, I'm mute. T rexes t Rex is gay.

4134
03:52:35,559 --> 03:52:37,159
If you notice, t Rex is always holding his hand

4135
03:52:37,159 --> 03:52:42,479
like the guy. Dude, what's up?

4136
03:52:43,319 --> 03:52:45,000
Speaker 2: Hey just had a question.

4137
03:52:45,239 --> 03:52:48,280
Speaker 71: Got a friend who's a Roman Catholic and he was

4138
03:52:48,360 --> 03:52:50,639
trying to tell me that.

4139
03:52:50,840 --> 03:52:51,079
Speaker 1: Uh.

4140
03:52:52,600 --> 03:52:55,959
Speaker 4: What is that him in the background, bitching like a

4141
03:52:56,000 --> 03:52:56,920
little kiddie.

4142
03:53:01,600 --> 03:53:02,120
Speaker 69: Franch.

4143
03:53:03,520 --> 03:53:05,479
Speaker 18: Well, he was trying to make the point that Judaism

4144
03:53:05,879 --> 03:53:10,520
could be trace back to Isaac and that Islam could

4145
03:53:10,520 --> 03:53:11,840
be trespect to Ishmael.

4146
03:53:12,639 --> 03:53:14,680
Speaker 4: So I think, well, we don't even know that. So

4147
03:53:15,040 --> 03:53:16,520
you know, if you listen to a lot of samsh

4148
03:53:16,639 --> 03:53:19,319
Move's debates, he'll actually question the Muslims on that assumption.

4149
03:53:19,520 --> 03:53:21,319
And but there's no actual proof of that.

4150
03:53:22,040 --> 03:53:24,239
Speaker 71: So no, I mean that's what I thought, because I

4151
03:53:24,639 --> 03:53:26,879
really heard no evidence to like support that.

4152
03:53:27,040 --> 03:53:30,000
Speaker 4: But just but even if it was the case, what, look,

4153
03:53:30,040 --> 03:53:31,760
how what does this have to do with us?

4154
03:53:34,079 --> 03:53:34,280
Speaker 15: Yeah?

4155
03:53:34,680 --> 03:53:37,120
Speaker 2: I think he was trying to argue that, like the whole.

4156
03:53:38,479 --> 03:53:45,239
Speaker 71: A discussion that you've had with Uh, can't.

4157
03:53:45,239 --> 03:53:46,360
Speaker 2: I think of his name right now?

4158
03:53:46,639 --> 03:53:48,760
Speaker 4: You're under cat. You're under cat attack?

4159
03:53:48,840 --> 03:53:50,680
Speaker 69: Bro yea.

4160
03:53:52,719 --> 03:53:56,239
Speaker 4: Is that cats in the background, No, that's my daughter children.

4161
03:53:56,360 --> 03:53:59,520
Oh my bad, like a cat. Watch also said that

4162
03:53:59,559 --> 03:54:02,879
Haitians coming, dude, watch out. Good you better put some

4163
03:54:03,120 --> 03:54:06,959
uh some some lie or something on them kiddies. They're

4164
03:54:06,959 --> 03:54:14,680
gonna get cooked if you coat your cat and lie

4165
03:54:15,000 --> 03:54:16,319
and a Haitian won't eat it.

4166
03:54:18,000 --> 03:54:19,520
Speaker 2: Well, good thing I don't have any cats.

4167
03:54:20,680 --> 03:54:21,120
Speaker 4: Go ahead.

4168
03:54:22,040 --> 03:54:27,959
Speaker 71: Yeah, so, uh, trying to remember that guy's name, that

4169
03:54:28,079 --> 03:54:29,799
Catholic that he debated a while.

4170
03:54:29,680 --> 03:54:35,040
Speaker 4: Back, Gay Gayerson, Yes, that's it.

4171
03:54:35,280 --> 03:54:41,719
Speaker 71: Yeah, but he was trying to argue like a, I

4172
03:54:41,760 --> 03:54:44,239
don't know, like that generic god that.

4173
03:54:46,440 --> 03:54:51,399
Speaker 4: You all worship and or not you but you mean

4174
03:54:51,440 --> 03:54:55,920
the guy that called in like a couple of days ago. No, No,

4175
03:54:56,399 --> 03:54:59,559
he's like Trent Horne. I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, okay,

4176
03:54:59,600 --> 03:55:00,600
what about there we go?

4177
03:55:01,000 --> 03:55:04,440
Speaker 71: Oh I think he has probably been like watching some

4178
03:55:04,639 --> 03:55:05,440
of his content.

4179
03:55:05,680 --> 03:55:09,639
Speaker 4: So, oh, I see your friends gotcham Yeah yeah.

4180
03:55:11,159 --> 03:55:14,079
Speaker 71: Yeah, I just kind of want to just ask that

4181
03:55:15,239 --> 03:55:16,840
kind of just gonna.

4182
03:55:16,959 --> 03:55:20,479
Speaker 4: Work, Like I'm sorry, I've totally got I've totally got

4183
03:55:20,520 --> 03:55:25,399
distracted here, Like uh yeah, Game Gamers is the festival

4184
03:55:26,600 --> 03:55:28,479
I'm just in a totally silly mood. I think I've

4185
03:55:28,520 --> 03:55:31,799
gone into total like insanity mode now because we've had

4186
03:55:31,840 --> 03:55:36,920
so many like crazy goofy goofy things tonight. Remember head

4187
03:55:36,920 --> 03:55:41,000
over to chalk dot com. He have his microwaving his cats.

4188
03:55:41,040 --> 03:55:41,120
Speaker 9: Bro.

4189
03:55:41,440 --> 03:55:44,559
Speaker 4: That was a microwave beep and that was cats. That

4190
03:55:44,680 --> 03:55:47,719
was no kid, that's a Haitian putting them damn cats

4191
03:55:47,760 --> 03:55:55,399
in the microwave. Bro, for real, for realm he's microwaven

4192
03:55:55,440 --> 03:55:56,600
pussy Burger's over there?

4193
03:55:56,799 --> 03:55:58,440
Speaker 2: What what.

4194
03:56:00,959 --> 03:56:01,159
Speaker 8: I have?

4195
03:56:01,360 --> 03:56:04,680
Speaker 4: Terminal brain rot? Are you kidding? I'm on point, bro,

4196
03:56:04,799 --> 03:56:07,000
and I just have to piss really bad. That's the

4197
03:56:07,040 --> 03:56:09,040
only thing that's happened over here. Like, I think I'm

4198
03:56:09,120 --> 03:56:12,440
going insane because my bladder is is.

4199
03:56:15,639 --> 03:56:19,319
Speaker 5: Why are you get give me the kitty? I want

4200
03:56:19,360 --> 03:56:21,559
the kitty, Dudes, Like, are you trying to hit all

4201
03:56:21,600 --> 03:56:21,879
my wife?

4202
03:56:21,920 --> 03:56:21,959
Speaker 16: No?

4203
03:56:22,000 --> 03:56:28,200
Speaker 5: I want the kitty the pit mean Dina, you want

4204
03:56:28,239 --> 03:56:31,200
my wife's kiddy? No, I want your cat, Bro, I

4205
03:56:31,319 --> 03:56:32,120
want Dinah.

4206
03:56:33,719 --> 03:56:41,680
Speaker 4: The what's up? Yo yo yo yo yo, sir.

4207
03:56:43,280 --> 03:56:48,639
Speaker 2: Uh. So there's been some drama lately. There's this brother.

4208
03:56:48,840 --> 03:56:52,079
Speaker 23: Who's been doing apologetics against Islam for a few years. Okay,

4209
03:56:52,200 --> 03:56:55,559
it's now like because he's on the verge of hyposthesizing

4210
03:56:55,600 --> 03:56:56,520
and becoming Muslim.

4211
03:56:57,000 --> 03:56:59,559
Speaker 4: Have you killed No, I haven't heard of those.

4212
03:57:01,239 --> 03:57:05,239
Speaker 2: I don't want to Holt the guy. That's the reason why.

4213
03:57:05,159 --> 03:57:10,000
Speaker 23: He wants to ampostesize is because he he's like he objects.

4214
03:57:09,559 --> 03:57:10,680
Speaker 2: To the Islamic dilemma.

4215
03:57:11,159 --> 03:57:14,600
Speaker 23: Like I don't agree with him, but I like, but

4216
03:57:14,760 --> 03:57:17,440
I kind of like play devil's advocate for his position

4217
03:57:17,559 --> 03:57:18,799
and see how you would respond to it.

4218
03:57:18,840 --> 03:57:20,479
Speaker 4: Okay, well, before we go out, Like, first of all,

4219
03:57:20,559 --> 03:57:22,680
that's not the only reason to not believe Islam, Like

4220
03:57:22,799 --> 03:57:25,239
I mean, zombie Thelma is just one of the many arguments.

4221
03:57:25,280 --> 03:57:28,239
So like, I can't found him a person becoming convestive

4222
03:57:28,520 --> 03:57:34,280
of Islam knowing these things. But go ahead. His argument

4223
03:57:34,399 --> 03:57:34,920
is that like.

4224
03:57:36,680 --> 03:57:40,079
Speaker 23: In his view, there's obviously passages in the Quran, who

4225
03:57:40,159 --> 03:57:44,840
he says are like corrective in a very specific sense against.

4226
03:57:44,680 --> 03:57:46,319
Speaker 2: Like a biblical verse.

4227
03:57:46,879 --> 03:57:48,959
Speaker 23: So like he would cite the verse which says that

4228
03:57:49,200 --> 03:57:51,879
like a law created the world.

4229
03:57:51,959 --> 03:57:55,040
Speaker 2: And heavens in six days, and this did not make

4230
03:57:55,120 --> 03:57:55,559
him tired.

4231
03:57:55,680 --> 03:57:57,319
Speaker 23: It goes something like this, and he will say, like

4232
03:57:57,719 --> 03:58:01,000
this is obviously a correction to the Genesis account than

4233
03:58:01,079 --> 03:58:01,760
God's resting.

4234
03:58:02,879 --> 03:58:05,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, but nobody and but nobody in Christianity believe that

4235
03:58:05,840 --> 03:58:08,440
he was literally tired. I mean, that's that's stupid.

4236
03:58:10,680 --> 03:58:12,360
Speaker 23: But like I guess he will say, like, this is

4237
03:58:12,680 --> 03:58:15,879
an objection to the idea of God resting, and therefore.

4238
03:58:15,600 --> 03:58:17,239
Speaker 4: It must be like, Okay, but does he know that

4239
03:58:17,399 --> 03:58:20,079
all the stupid ship in the hot eaths about a

4240
03:58:20,200 --> 03:58:22,959
lot having gonads and wearing a cloak and being a

4241
03:58:23,040 --> 03:58:24,959
blonde boy with gold hair. I mean, does he know

4242
03:58:25,040 --> 03:58:27,760
any of that? Does he think that's more rational than

4243
03:58:27,840 --> 03:58:28,360
where he's at?

4244
03:58:31,120 --> 03:58:34,520
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I guess I tried to reason.

4245
03:58:34,319 --> 03:58:36,319
Speaker 4: With him, Well did you reason with him about these

4246
03:58:36,799 --> 03:58:37,559
dumb hadiths?

4247
03:58:40,079 --> 03:58:40,319
Speaker 2: Yeah?

4248
03:58:40,959 --> 03:58:44,159
Speaker 23: I tried to reasoning with him about like because like

4249
03:58:44,680 --> 03:58:46,280
how do you they will do? You know how I'm

4250
03:58:46,280 --> 03:58:50,120
gonna x Muslim myself? Okay and Muslims like compartable.

4251
03:58:50,159 --> 03:58:51,879
Speaker 2: I was like, there's like a cogniti to this one

4252
03:58:51,879 --> 03:58:53,280
that's going to cause still.

4253
03:58:54,360 --> 03:58:56,200
Speaker 4: I mean, if there's saw hold on, if there saw

4254
03:58:56,239 --> 03:58:58,079
he don't you have to believe him if you're unless

4255
03:58:58,120 --> 03:59:00,559
you're gonna be a she or something.

4256
03:59:03,440 --> 03:59:05,920
Speaker 23: It's sort of a gray zone where it's like you

4257
03:59:05,959 --> 03:59:09,559
can reject the particular hadif and it doesn't make you like,

4258
03:59:09,799 --> 03:59:11,159
this doesn't kick you out of Islam.

4259
03:59:12,239 --> 03:59:14,280
Speaker 4: Wait a minute, a minute. But my understanding is that

4260
03:59:14,440 --> 03:59:18,000
they have to have some akida and that will necessitate

4261
03:59:18,079 --> 03:59:21,360
you having some position like you can't, can't, won't they

4262
03:59:21,440 --> 03:59:24,360
say that your shirt If you're like picking and choosing

4263
03:59:24,440 --> 03:59:26,639
hadith that are considered sahi.

4264
03:59:29,639 --> 03:59:34,799
Speaker 23: Uh no, at worst, it's simple. And this goes to

4265
03:59:35,000 --> 03:59:39,639
like a problem with Islamic epistemology. Okay, there isn't a

4266
03:59:39,799 --> 03:59:43,120
canon of what hadiths are really sahi. It all comes

4267
03:59:43,200 --> 03:59:46,319
down to like the opinions of scholars, and every hadif

4268
03:59:46,360 --> 03:59:48,840
scholar has his own collection of haddief that he thinks

4269
03:59:48,879 --> 03:59:51,840
is a hai, and like you know, there's like ten

4270
03:59:51,920 --> 03:59:52,639
thousand hadif.

4271
03:59:52,879 --> 03:59:56,079
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, Well, even if he can slide past this,

4272
03:59:56,520 --> 03:59:58,600
like I mean, there's enough stupid stuff in the Qur'an,

4273
03:59:58,879 --> 04:00:02,200
like I mean, the Kuran mixes up Bible stories and

4274
04:00:02,239 --> 04:00:05,680
gets them out of whack. So even if he thought

4275
04:00:05,760 --> 04:00:08,600
that like the statement in Genesis was like a corrective

4276
04:00:08,639 --> 04:00:12,040
to the idea that God rested I mean, Gregor Paloma

4277
04:00:12,159 --> 04:00:15,000
says that God resting is is a proof of the

4278
04:00:15,120 --> 04:00:18,680
essence synergy distinction. So I'm surprised this person who's supposed

4279
04:00:18,680 --> 04:00:20,280
to be Orthodox doesn't know that.

4280
04:00:22,360 --> 04:00:24,040
Speaker 23: Yeah, and I wanted to get to that, like I

4281
04:00:24,079 --> 04:00:25,840
think this like the long of dilemma.

4282
04:00:25,840 --> 04:00:27,479
Speaker 2: As you said, it's a great argument, but it's not

4283
04:00:27,559 --> 04:00:28,319
the only arguments.

4284
04:00:28,559 --> 04:00:30,000
Speaker 23: And the other side like if you want to go

4285
04:00:30,159 --> 04:00:32,360
down the road and say that, Okay, No, the kron

4286
04:00:32,399 --> 04:00:34,120
actually super strongly thinks.

4287
04:00:33,920 --> 04:00:37,559
Speaker 2: The old scriptures are corrupted. That's a whole other can

4288
04:00:37,639 --> 04:00:38,559
of worms, like why.

4289
04:00:38,440 --> 04:00:41,840
Speaker 23: Would God allow scripture to be corrupted for two thousand years?

4290
04:00:41,920 --> 04:00:44,399
Speaker 4: Well, and he says that, I mean, the early Muslim

4291
04:00:44,479 --> 04:00:47,559
said interpreting the Koran that all his words cannot be corrupted.

4292
04:00:50,920 --> 04:00:51,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

4293
04:00:52,399 --> 04:00:54,399
Speaker 23: And the verse they always cite to show that the

4294
04:00:54,520 --> 04:00:58,040
Qur'an is preserved, it actually doesn't say that the chron

4295
04:00:58,120 --> 04:00:59,920
is presently says that scripture is preserved.

4296
04:01:00,360 --> 04:01:03,120
Speaker 2: We will preserve the scripture is what it says.

4297
04:01:03,319 --> 04:01:07,360
Speaker 4: Okay, So the assumption is that we're not told what

4298
04:01:07,440 --> 04:01:11,239
that is, so that could be anything. Is that the

4299
04:01:11,280 --> 04:01:14,520
point you're making? In other words, scripture meaning the Bible,

4300
04:01:14,760 --> 04:01:16,959
or that it's ambiguous.

4301
04:01:19,000 --> 04:01:21,639
Speaker 2: They will read it. That's the qurana. But there's nothing.

4302
04:01:22,280 --> 04:01:24,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's ambiguous, is what you're saying.

4303
04:01:24,760 --> 04:01:27,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I can give you the words. I can google.

4304
04:01:27,079 --> 04:01:27,520
It's square.

4305
04:01:32,840 --> 04:01:34,479
Speaker 4: What's what's the reference.

4306
04:01:35,719 --> 04:01:46,040
Speaker 24: The town's verse fifteen nine?

4307
04:01:51,239 --> 04:01:53,799
Speaker 4: Is this a prominent person or a lesser known person

4308
04:01:53,879 --> 04:01:54,639
that we're talking about?

4309
04:01:55,959 --> 04:02:01,079
Speaker 2: The guy who's leaving. Yeah, I guess it's around like

4310
04:02:01,280 --> 04:02:02,360
one thousand followers.

4311
04:02:03,440 --> 04:02:07,200
Speaker 4: He's strictly on Twitter, can can You don't want to

4312
04:02:07,200 --> 04:02:07,719
say who it is?

4313
04:02:10,000 --> 04:02:13,159
Speaker 2: Al fin Lundi is what he is? Like you in

4314
04:02:13,600 --> 04:02:14,239
the alphawds?

4315
04:02:15,760 --> 04:02:15,879
Speaker 24: Uh?

4316
04:02:17,000 --> 04:02:20,000
Speaker 23: His Twitter at is at Al fin Landi, like Al

4317
04:02:20,120 --> 04:02:22,639
the Arab plagued and fin Lundy like.

4318
04:02:23,280 --> 04:02:24,639
Speaker 4: I don't even know who it is. So that's fine.

4319
04:02:26,520 --> 04:02:31,079
Oh so fifty nine said fifteen Yeah, I'm not familiar

4320
04:02:31,120 --> 04:02:32,840
with the person. Fifty nine says that A certainly we

4321
04:02:32,920 --> 04:02:35,120
who have revealed the reminder, and a certainly way who

4322
04:02:35,120 --> 04:02:37,959
will preserve it? So is the Arabic scripture there.

4323
04:02:41,159 --> 04:02:43,440
Speaker 2: If they will read it us. This is the This

4324
04:02:43,559 --> 04:02:46,280
is like the super important verse from Muslims.

4325
04:02:46,840 --> 04:02:49,159
Speaker 23: This is where they take the idea, the theological idea

4326
04:02:49,200 --> 04:02:50,680
that the crime is preserved.

4327
04:02:50,520 --> 04:02:51,559
Speaker 8: And will be preserved.

4328
04:02:52,360 --> 04:02:55,600
Speaker 2: Okay, and it's a pretty ambiguous words like we sent

4329
04:02:55,680 --> 04:02:58,280
down a reminder and we will preserve it. What is

4330
04:02:58,280 --> 04:02:58,799
the reminder?

4331
04:02:59,319 --> 04:03:06,680
Speaker 4: I see, Yeah, I understand what you're saying. It's ambiguous.

4332
04:03:06,760 --> 04:03:08,680
But now so was he is he trying to use

4333
04:03:08,719 --> 04:03:10,799
this this I don't understand, Like what what does this prove?

4334
04:03:12,000 --> 04:03:13,920
Would you would your would this guy? Would he go

4335
04:03:14,000 --> 04:03:16,360
talk to Sam Shamun or Christian Prince or somebody?

4336
04:03:18,639 --> 04:03:18,799
Speaker 2: Uh?

4337
04:03:19,879 --> 04:03:21,559
Speaker 23: I tried to try to commit them to go in

4338
04:03:21,639 --> 04:03:23,920
this date you here, but he even.

4339
04:03:23,719 --> 04:03:26,879
Speaker 4: Wants But well he can, he should go. He can

4340
04:03:26,959 --> 04:03:28,879
have a conversation. He doesn't have to have it to date.

4341
04:03:29,040 --> 04:03:32,680
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I'll.

4342
04:03:34,319 --> 04:03:39,600
Speaker 23: Uh talk to him, but yeah, plant, I can't talk

4343
04:03:39,600 --> 04:03:40,680
to another thing about like.

4344
04:03:40,760 --> 04:03:41,840
Speaker 2: Towh and Islam?

4345
04:03:44,959 --> 04:03:45,879
Speaker 4: I miss I missed that.

4346
04:03:45,959 --> 04:03:50,840
Speaker 23: What can I just talk about other things about Islam?

4347
04:03:51,479 --> 04:03:51,600
Speaker 7: Uh?

4348
04:03:51,840 --> 04:03:53,719
Speaker 4: Well, I'm gonna have to. I'm gonna move on. I'm

4349
04:03:53,719 --> 04:03:56,079
not trying to be rude to you, and we'll come

4350
04:03:56,159 --> 04:03:59,920
back maybe, but I'm gonna somebody has come in as myself.

4351
04:04:00,879 --> 04:04:07,639
So Jay Dyer, what's your argument? Go ahead and me

4352
04:04:07,799 --> 04:04:19,280
unmute you have to unmute me. Oh hey hey Jay, hey, j.

4353
04:04:21,719 --> 04:04:28,239
Speaker 72: So you think that Catholicism is false because we think

4354
04:04:28,399 --> 04:04:30,440
Muslims will worship the same God or or that's a

4355
04:04:30,559 --> 04:04:32,239
reason why it's evidence.

4356
04:04:31,959 --> 04:04:34,440
Speaker 4: Of the false Well, not that you think that you've

4357
04:04:34,479 --> 04:04:38,079
dogmatically stated that more than once, right, Yeah, that we've

4358
04:04:38,159 --> 04:04:39,319
dougmated so.

4359
04:04:40,000 --> 04:04:42,920
Speaker 72: And one of the things that you bring up to

4360
04:04:43,000 --> 04:04:47,479
prove that is that they deny the incarnation, therefore they

4361
04:04:47,559 --> 04:04:47,959
deny the.

4362
04:04:47,959 --> 04:04:53,760
Speaker 4: Father, right, Because, well, there's many reasons why that's the case,

4363
04:04:53,920 --> 04:04:56,479
one of which is that the word God is a

4364
04:04:56,959 --> 04:05:00,399
generic reference and it doesn't have, without a conc or

4365
04:05:00,440 --> 04:05:03,559
an intentionality, any specific reference. So how do we know

4366
04:05:03,760 --> 04:05:05,840
that it's the same God just on the basis of

4367
04:05:05,879 --> 04:05:10,719
the term God. But I argue more specifically that the

4368
04:05:10,799 --> 04:05:16,079
texts of the Vatican two nosertat Limagentium state that they

4369
04:05:16,159 --> 04:05:19,879
also adore the same God and have the faith of Abraham.

4370
04:05:20,159 --> 04:05:22,239
And they do not have the faith of Abraham. Because

4371
04:05:22,360 --> 04:05:24,959
the New Testament many times over, every time it talks

4372
04:05:25,000 --> 04:05:27,079
about the faith of Abraham, it specifies that it is

4373
04:05:27,280 --> 04:05:31,559
the Triune God that Abraham worshiped and that Abraham believed

4374
04:05:31,559 --> 04:05:33,680
the Gospel. So the faith of Abraham has to be

4375
04:05:33,799 --> 04:05:36,319
faith in Christ. There is no faith of Abraham. That's

4376
04:05:36,479 --> 04:05:38,440
Muslim option or this Jewish option.

4377
04:05:40,040 --> 04:05:40,479
Speaker 61: I see.

4378
04:05:40,639 --> 04:05:44,280
Speaker 19: So, so you may be open to saying that they

4379
04:05:44,440 --> 04:05:46,600
acknowledge the same God even if they don't have the faith.

4380
04:05:46,840 --> 04:05:48,399
Speaker 2: But they don't have the faith, well.

4381
04:05:48,280 --> 04:05:52,719
Speaker 4: I mean, as a Satanist can say I acknowledge one God.

4382
04:05:52,799 --> 04:05:55,120
Does that make a Satanist the same as us because

4383
04:05:55,159 --> 04:05:55,959
he's a monotheist.

4384
04:05:58,559 --> 04:06:01,440
Speaker 19: No, I'm just asking you because a lot of times

4385
04:06:01,479 --> 04:06:02,000
people say we.

4386
04:06:02,000 --> 04:06:06,280
Speaker 2: Don't worship the same God. We don't, okay, And and

4387
04:06:06,440 --> 04:06:07,000
your reason for.

4388
04:06:07,040 --> 04:06:09,319
Speaker 4: Saying that is, well, this is the reason that That's

4389
04:06:09,360 --> 04:06:11,280
the reason that I just gave. And there's many other

4390
04:06:11,319 --> 04:06:16,200
reasons too. For example, Muslims exclude many essential attributes. Did

4391
04:06:16,280 --> 04:06:16,600
you know that?

4392
04:06:18,239 --> 04:06:19,159
Speaker 2: Yes, I understand.

4393
04:06:19,200 --> 04:06:22,319
Speaker 19: Well, I understand you know you have a specific understand

4394
04:06:22,399 --> 04:06:24,479
Are the Orthodox have a different view of God's nature?

4395
04:06:25,440 --> 04:06:26,760
Speaker 2: And is that energies and everything? No?

4396
04:06:26,799 --> 04:06:29,559
Speaker 4: No, No, I'm saying that on your position, you believe

4397
04:06:29,600 --> 04:06:32,319
in attributes that are essential to who God is that

4398
04:06:32,479 --> 04:06:37,920
Muslims exclude. So how is it how how even on

4399
04:06:38,000 --> 04:06:39,799
your own position, is it the same reference?

4400
04:06:42,920 --> 04:06:46,040
Speaker 19: I would say it's the same reference in the same

4401
04:06:46,200 --> 04:06:50,799
way that the New Testament assumes that Jews acknowledge the

4402
04:06:50,840 --> 04:06:52,079
same God, despite.

4403
04:06:51,760 --> 04:06:52,920
Speaker 2: Them not acknowledging the sun.

4404
04:06:53,239 --> 04:06:55,840
Speaker 4: But does Jesus operate that way when he debates with

4405
04:06:55,840 --> 04:06:58,399
the Pharisees on this very question in John five through nine,

4406
04:07:00,959 --> 04:07:03,440
Because it's pretty sure Jesus says, you have never seen

4407
04:07:03,520 --> 04:07:06,200
him nor known him when he argues with the Pharisees

4408
04:07:06,239 --> 04:07:06,799
over this question.

4409
04:07:09,959 --> 04:07:11,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, he says, they haven't seen him or known him.

4410
04:07:11,760 --> 04:07:12,760
Speaker 4: Oh, but it's the same God.

4411
04:07:15,159 --> 04:07:19,120
Speaker 2: Well, they have a they have a zeal for God, right.

4412
04:07:19,600 --> 04:07:22,520
Speaker 4: But not according to knowledge, so it's not the right God.

4413
04:07:23,559 --> 04:07:25,840
By the way, in the New Testament, you can distinguish

4414
04:07:25,959 --> 04:07:31,520
between a conceptual idea and a relationship. So knowing God

4415
04:07:31,600 --> 04:07:35,879
in the sense of a relationship, which that term is

4416
04:07:36,000 --> 04:07:38,200
used specifically for no in the sense, and it's the

4417
04:07:38,239 --> 04:07:40,200
same term that's used for husband and wife to know,

4418
04:07:40,840 --> 04:07:45,159
versus having an abstract conceptual knowledge of something. Let's give

4419
04:07:45,200 --> 04:07:48,440
another example. Mormons say that they believe in Jesus Christ.

4420
04:07:48,959 --> 04:07:50,959
Do they believe in Jesus Christ like us?

4421
04:07:53,719 --> 04:07:55,680
Speaker 2: They know that Jesus is different?

4422
04:07:55,760 --> 04:07:59,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, so then that disproves this whole natural theology approach.

4423
04:08:02,280 --> 04:08:03,120
Speaker 2: Do you think that.

4424
04:08:04,840 --> 04:08:10,000
Speaker 72: You're the way that you do you so you're okay

4425
04:08:10,159 --> 04:08:14,719
with saying that they try to honor God if based

4426
04:08:14,760 --> 04:08:17,079
on that, it's not wrong to say they try to

4427
04:08:17,159 --> 04:08:19,959
honor God but ignorantly, because that seems to be with

4428
04:08:20,000 --> 04:08:20,719
Saint Paul's it.

4429
04:08:21,120 --> 04:08:23,159
Speaker 4: Well, well, whether Saint Paul's said that or not in

4430
04:08:23,280 --> 04:08:26,520
Acts seventeen is one thing. But the problem is that

4431
04:08:26,719 --> 04:08:30,639
Vatican two says, and the Catechism as well, that they

4432
04:08:30,799 --> 04:08:34,479
have the faith of Abraham and that they adore God

4433
04:08:34,760 --> 04:08:38,639
like us. An adoration in your theology is specifically worship,

4434
04:08:39,000 --> 04:08:40,920
which is just simply not true. So I Vatican two,

4435
04:08:41,239 --> 04:08:45,239
if they specified, for example, that they have an abstract

4436
04:08:45,280 --> 04:08:47,559
conceptual knowledge of God or they seek to do this,

4437
04:08:48,040 --> 04:08:50,040
it doesn't say that, it says that they actually do it.

4438
04:08:50,200 --> 04:08:50,840
That's the problem.

4439
04:08:52,440 --> 04:08:54,600
Speaker 19: Okay, So you have the issue with the faith of

4440
04:08:54,639 --> 04:08:58,120
Abraham and at the term adore being applied to Okay.

4441
04:08:57,879 --> 04:09:01,000
Speaker 2: Correctly, All right, well I appreciate that.

4442
04:09:01,399 --> 04:09:01,639
Speaker 8: Yeah.

4443
04:09:04,280 --> 04:09:06,559
Speaker 4: Interesting, I thought that was going to turn into a

4444
04:09:06,680 --> 04:09:16,239
really nasty Roman Catholic interaction, but that was a fair interaction. Echthelion. Yeah,

4445
04:09:16,280 --> 04:09:19,920
I mean, when this comes up, I think that Roman

4446
04:09:19,959 --> 04:09:23,239
Catholics could have gotten around this if it had not

4447
04:09:23,479 --> 04:09:26,920
said faith of Abraham in I think e limgentium. Let's

4448
04:09:26,959 --> 04:09:30,040
go to limitgentium on that. And if it had not

4449
04:09:30,159 --> 04:09:38,040
said adoration, because those are really you know, let's see

4450
04:09:42,040 --> 04:09:44,000
like it said, like right here it says the Muslims

4451
04:09:44,000 --> 04:09:46,479
who professed to hold the faith of Abraham. So right

4452
04:09:46,600 --> 04:09:50,040
there you might could say, well, but there it doesn't

4453
04:09:50,079 --> 04:09:52,079
say they do it. It says they profess to. But

4454
04:09:52,239 --> 04:09:55,159
then it says along with us they adore the one

4455
04:09:55,200 --> 04:09:58,680
immerciful God, which is identifying it as the same reference.

4456
04:09:58,760 --> 04:10:00,680
You see how that is where it it's difficult, And

4457
04:10:00,760 --> 04:10:04,040
then that's not that's just lumin Gentem sixteen. All show

4458
04:10:04,120 --> 04:10:08,479
in Nora Tata says that they take pains to submit

4459
04:10:08,600 --> 04:10:14,200
to God's decrees, just as did Abraham, who who with

4460
04:10:14,399 --> 04:10:16,799
whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself,

4461
04:10:16,920 --> 04:10:17,879
submits to God.

4462
04:10:18,799 --> 04:10:19,239
Speaker 2: So you have.

4463
04:10:21,040 --> 04:10:25,360
Speaker 4: Both of those things there with us they adore God,

4464
04:10:26,399 --> 04:10:30,319
they have the faith of Abraham. In Nos Tante and

4465
04:10:30,399 --> 04:10:34,520
I think the way the Catechism phrases the catelic catechor

4466
04:10:34,639 --> 04:10:37,920
it basically just summarizes the way these two documents speak.

4467
04:10:38,680 --> 04:10:41,079
But anyway, that's not even the only problem, because it

4468
04:10:41,120 --> 04:10:43,959
says the same thing about Hindus, and that one I don't.

4469
04:10:44,120 --> 04:10:48,000
I don't see how in nosratate like, I mean, how

4470
04:10:48,040 --> 04:10:52,280
does the Hindu worship God in love? Trying to find

4471
04:10:52,280 --> 04:11:09,719
the Hindu statement, here's Buddhism. Thus, in Hinduism, men contemplate

4472
04:11:09,760 --> 04:11:13,559
the divine mystery and seek it through philosophical inquiry, blah

4473
04:11:13,600 --> 04:11:19,200
blah blah. They seek freedom from anglish and through ascetical

4474
04:11:19,319 --> 04:11:23,440
practices and profound meditation, a flight to God with love

4475
04:11:23,479 --> 04:11:26,879
and trust. I don't I don't see how you can

4476
04:11:26,920 --> 04:11:32,639
say that, because it's the way it's worded. It says

4477
04:11:33,200 --> 04:11:36,799
through the I mean, Hinduism is totally demonic. So in

4478
04:11:36,959 --> 04:11:39,920
their ascetic practices, which are like self harm and all

4479
04:11:39,959 --> 04:11:42,639
this crazy stuff, they're not actually attaining to God. But

4480
04:11:42,799 --> 04:11:46,479
this says they're seeking meditation and flight to God with

4481
04:11:46,680 --> 04:11:49,680
love and trust. And I don't see how that how

4482
04:11:49,840 --> 04:11:54,840
you could say that excilion, because it's not saying in spite,

4483
04:11:54,959 --> 04:11:58,319
it's saying in Hinduism. So in other words, in the

4484
04:11:58,399 --> 04:12:02,639
false religion they're doing this, it's not saying in spite

4485
04:12:02,680 --> 04:12:06,120
of their you know, idolatry and false religion. They're groping

4486
04:12:06,200 --> 04:12:08,399
after God. That's you know, Act seventeen is the way

4487
04:12:08,440 --> 04:12:14,120
Paul words it. This says in Hinduism, in Islam, and

4488
04:12:14,600 --> 04:12:20,559
as even Tim Gordon admits now he thinks the worst

4489
04:12:20,680 --> 04:12:24,079
position is the Jews. He says, what's said about the

4490
04:12:24,159 --> 04:12:29,760
Jews here is the real impossible position to admit because

4491
04:12:29,799 --> 04:12:33,159
of the previous Catholic tradition on the perfidious Jews is

4492
04:12:33,200 --> 04:12:38,120
the liturgical statements. He says. The way that Luminingentie Minister

4493
04:12:38,200 --> 04:12:42,319
Tat speak of the Jews is even more difficult. Okay, well,

4494
04:12:42,399 --> 04:12:44,200
whatever position you want to take on that, I think

4495
04:12:44,239 --> 04:12:47,559
that really they're all wrong headed. Do you want to

4496
04:12:47,639 --> 04:12:48,520
speak excilion?

4497
04:12:49,600 --> 04:12:50,280
Speaker 2: I do? I do.

4498
04:12:51,360 --> 04:12:56,479
Speaker 26: So I've just had I'm a Protestant, previous Protestant who's

4499
04:12:56,559 --> 04:12:59,920
now an Eastern Orthodox, just started catechy in two weeks ago,

4500
04:13:00,959 --> 04:13:04,479
and I've been having every time I meet up with

4501
04:13:04,559 --> 04:13:06,760
one of my old Protestant buddies, they want to debate

4502
04:13:06,840 --> 04:13:09,719
me on why you know, they want to convert.

4503
04:13:09,520 --> 04:13:10,760
Speaker 2: Me back to Protestantism.

4504
04:13:11,000 --> 04:13:15,479
Speaker 26: Sure, and uh so I recently had a conversation with

4505
04:13:15,600 --> 04:13:17,079
my buddy Omar, who.

4506
04:13:18,319 --> 04:13:21,440
Speaker 4: You most could become mother and equal three.

4507
04:13:22,280 --> 04:13:25,040
Speaker 26: He actually is he actually is an ex Mohammedan, but

4508
04:13:25,120 --> 04:13:29,559
he's a Protestant now, and uh yeah he was.

4509
04:13:29,719 --> 04:13:31,040
Speaker 2: You know, me and him were kind of going back

4510
04:13:31,040 --> 04:13:31,319
and forth.

4511
04:13:31,360 --> 04:13:34,360
Speaker 26: We're having an argument, and so basically I just want

4512
04:13:34,399 --> 04:13:36,559
to kind of present to use some of the arguments

4513
04:13:36,600 --> 04:13:38,280
he was making to me that I was having a

4514
04:13:38,319 --> 04:13:41,680
hard time responding to, not because they were sound arguments,

4515
04:13:41,760 --> 04:13:45,440
but more just because they were just difficult to respond to.

4516
04:13:45,600 --> 04:13:48,520
They're like, so I'll give you an example. One of

4517
04:13:48,559 --> 04:13:52,799
his arguments was like about the invisible church, right that

4518
04:13:53,639 --> 04:13:56,360
you know, the the church that Jesus Christ said up

4519
04:13:56,760 --> 04:14:00,799
was something that you know, we can't see, feel or touch.

4520
04:14:01,040 --> 04:14:04,680
It doesn't have you know, some structure or place to

4521
04:14:04,799 --> 04:14:08,600
go to, but is just you know, it just exists,

4522
04:14:08,760 --> 04:14:10,200
like kind of like the last color.

4523
04:14:10,120 --> 04:14:11,559
Speaker 2: Was saying, you know, it's the right.

4524
04:14:11,680 --> 04:14:12,920
Speaker 4: I mean, I used to be I used to be

4525
04:14:12,959 --> 04:14:16,319
a Protestant. I know the invisible church doctrine what I'm saying.

4526
04:14:16,159 --> 04:14:17,760
Speaker 2: Right, So, like, how do I respond to that kind

4527
04:14:17,799 --> 04:14:18,280
of argument?

4528
04:14:18,760 --> 04:14:21,680
Speaker 4: Well, simply put, the church is identified in the New

4529
04:14:21,719 --> 04:14:25,840
Testament as the Body of Christ, and christ body was

4530
04:14:25,879 --> 04:14:29,719
a human body, it wasn't a spiritual body. That's Gnostic

4531
04:14:30,200 --> 04:14:33,239
in Christ's body in Paul's analogy, has to be as

4532
04:14:33,319 --> 04:14:36,600
one and unite it as his physical body. So they

4533
04:14:36,639 --> 04:14:40,879
have a Gnostic Nestorian ecclesiology. When they say that there's

4534
04:14:40,959 --> 04:14:46,719
this invisible body that doesn't exist, it's an actual this too.

4535
04:14:48,399 --> 04:14:51,159
The Donatists are their first to teach a an invisible

4536
04:14:51,239 --> 04:14:54,120
church because of their purity doctrine. So their idea is, well,

4537
04:14:54,520 --> 04:14:57,799
only the pure that do not commit sin have the

4538
04:14:57,879 --> 04:15:01,879
grace and have the sacraments. So yes, they're notice.

4539
04:15:02,120 --> 04:15:04,799
Speaker 2: Also, what's this just dawn on me the other day?

4540
04:15:07,239 --> 04:15:09,760
God is not a god of confusion. And what this

4541
04:15:10,280 --> 04:15:13,600
does is it it blurs the boundaries.

4542
04:15:13,680 --> 04:15:18,200
Speaker 18: You can't actually, for us, the church militant ever identify

4543
04:15:18,360 --> 04:15:21,399
where the church is. So it could be over that.

4544
04:15:22,079 --> 04:15:25,680
Do you see how problematic that is? Who to say

4545
04:15:25,799 --> 04:15:28,200
it could be the And of course.

4546
04:15:28,000 --> 04:15:32,079
Speaker 2: This is exactly where humanism comes at. That's just the

4547
04:15:32,200 --> 04:15:33,520
next step. Well, where we.

4548
04:15:33,799 --> 04:15:36,280
Speaker 18: Say that the Hindus not worshiping the same you know,

4549
04:15:36,399 --> 04:15:37,920
the boundaries they are invisible.

4550
04:15:38,120 --> 04:15:42,360
Speaker 2: We could and that's also Jay, you.

4551
04:15:42,360 --> 04:15:45,479
Speaker 18: Were trying that into the gnostic But you know, narcissism

4552
04:15:46,319 --> 04:15:51,040
connection with the uphol is to what blur boundaries. It's

4553
04:15:51,120 --> 04:15:54,840
all boundaries. So I think it's important that we point

4554
04:15:54,920 --> 04:15:57,719
that out. So you've got a god a confusion that.

4555
04:15:57,719 --> 04:16:00,520
Speaker 2: It's going to basically be like set a store. It's

4556
04:16:00,559 --> 04:16:02,639
like you can never actually tell where the church is.

4557
04:16:03,280 --> 04:16:06,079
Speaker 18: We're gonna blur the boundaries, and now we're gonna have

4558
04:16:06,079 --> 04:16:09,440
always people being confused and ending up in Hindu cults

4559
04:16:09,479 --> 04:16:13,319
and stuff and and Muslims because we're all, you know,

4560
04:16:13,639 --> 04:16:14,639
who knows where.

4561
04:16:14,440 --> 04:16:15,079
Speaker 2: The church is? Right?

4562
04:16:15,120 --> 04:16:17,600
Speaker 4: And remember Paul says in Ephesians, right, the church is

4563
04:16:17,799 --> 04:16:22,159
there's one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one body. I

4564
04:16:22,239 --> 04:16:25,920
mean not I mean if it's invisible, then that then

4565
04:16:26,079 --> 04:16:30,040
Paul's really pointing out something that doesn't do anybody any good. Right,

4566
04:16:30,319 --> 04:16:32,719
If it's visible, then like Father Decan saying, oh, that's

4567
04:16:32,760 --> 04:16:34,760
the one that we can recognize, that we can identify.

4568
04:16:37,559 --> 04:16:39,399
Speaker 26: Yeah, And that was kind of my argument to him,

4569
04:16:39,559 --> 04:16:43,399
was like, you know, where where are the bishops in

4570
04:16:43,520 --> 04:16:46,799
this so called invisible church? You know, where are the deacons,

4571
04:16:46,799 --> 04:16:49,959
where are the presbyters? Where is the authoritative like structure

4572
04:16:50,239 --> 04:16:52,239
that was set up and handed down?

4573
04:16:52,639 --> 04:16:53,239
Speaker 2: Because it was.

4574
04:16:53,280 --> 04:16:56,440
Speaker 26: Weird, like he did actually admit that he believes in

4575
04:16:56,600 --> 04:16:59,799
the handing down of the like laying on of hisns

4576
04:17:00,479 --> 04:17:03,840
and you know, the sort of Apostolic succession that we

4577
04:17:03,959 --> 04:17:06,120
as Orthodoxy might affirm.

4578
04:17:06,280 --> 04:17:08,600
Speaker 2: He's like, oh, yeah, I believe in that. But then

4579
04:17:08,680 --> 04:17:10,319
when I'm like, okay, so where did that go?

4580
04:17:10,639 --> 04:17:12,479
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, you can't believe in that and not

4581
04:17:12,600 --> 04:17:15,799
apply it to history, because it's a historical thing, just

4582
04:17:15,959 --> 04:17:19,280
like just like in numbers eleven, it's an actual historical

4583
04:17:19,440 --> 04:17:22,879
Israel that Moses is laying hands on people and the

4584
04:17:22,959 --> 04:17:25,799
spirit is being passed on, right, and he.

4585
04:17:26,120 --> 04:17:29,479
Speaker 26: He was his argument was like, well, you know, eventually

4586
04:17:29,600 --> 04:17:32,639
it got you know, subverted, and then people took over.

4587
04:17:32,680 --> 04:17:35,000
Speaker 4: Who were like, you know, anyway, well then then the

4588
04:17:35,319 --> 04:17:37,520
gates of alper bail against the church. Yeah, so this

4589
04:17:37,680 --> 04:17:41,639
is all the same kind of right, And we brought.

4590
04:17:41,520 --> 04:17:47,559
Speaker 18: Up earlier in this Twitter space saying ignacious.

4591
04:17:47,680 --> 04:17:53,200
Speaker 10: I'm trying to member his letter to one of his

4592
04:17:53,360 --> 04:17:56,920
letters forgive me says and.

4593
04:17:57,000 --> 04:18:02,360
Speaker 18: Remember he's writing under apstock authority at the time, Saint

4594
04:18:02,440 --> 04:18:04,280
John and Polycarp.

4595
04:18:04,719 --> 04:18:08,879
Speaker 2: That the church is where the bishop is. So I mean,

4596
04:18:08,920 --> 04:18:11,559
what is the Protestant going to say about about that?

4597
04:18:12,159 --> 04:18:13,159
They don't have any bishops.

4598
04:18:13,840 --> 04:18:17,559
Speaker 4: Right, Well, I keep in mind you got your body.

4599
04:18:17,559 --> 04:18:21,159
There's kind of being inconsistent because there aren't any Protestants

4600
04:18:21,319 --> 04:18:25,399
that actually believe in a laying on of hands that's

4601
04:18:25,520 --> 04:18:28,639
historical that passes on the Holy Spirit. There's Protestants that

4602
04:18:28,639 --> 04:18:30,440
believe in laying on of hands, like the laying on

4603
04:18:30,520 --> 04:18:33,760
of hands of elders and Protestants and Presbyterianism and stuff,

4604
04:18:34,000 --> 04:18:36,440
but they do not believe that there's a transmission of

4605
04:18:36,520 --> 04:18:39,360
the gift of the Holy Spirit that's generation to generation.

4606
04:18:39,559 --> 04:18:41,680
That that's not something Protestants don't believe.

4607
04:18:42,399 --> 04:18:46,159
Speaker 18: And I would suggest to Father Pomazanski in the Orthodox

4608
04:18:46,239 --> 04:18:48,360
Dogmatic Theology talks about this.

4609
04:18:50,959 --> 04:18:52,239
Speaker 2: It makes a really good distinction.

4610
04:18:52,799 --> 04:18:55,920
Speaker 18: So basically, in Protestant the laying on of hands is

4611
04:18:56,319 --> 04:19:00,280
a democratic election, and they do not believe any that

4612
04:19:00,479 --> 04:19:04,440
is supernatural. Yeah, if there's any supernatural grace, it's uh

4613
04:19:05,079 --> 04:19:09,600
or charisma that's conveyed through an authority or office. Because

4614
04:19:09,639 --> 04:19:12,239
in Protestantism mean I remember as a Lutheran.

4615
04:19:12,360 --> 04:19:20,040
Speaker 73: Even the pastor they're basically elevated laity. It's like a yeah,

4616
04:19:20,239 --> 04:19:24,479
you might be called to is lady be an administrator or.

4617
04:19:24,520 --> 04:19:27,719
Speaker 2: Something like that. But nobody's above any other. It's just

4618
04:19:27,799 --> 04:19:31,479
a call. There's no actual authority. There's there's no real

4619
04:19:31,639 --> 04:19:32,639
priesthood either.

4620
04:19:32,719 --> 04:19:36,159
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4641
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4642
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4643
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4644
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4645
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4646
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4650
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4652
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Speaker 69: It's not just for men Chad, the Christians baptized is saints?

4653
04:21:46,040 --> 04:21:50,920
Speaker 18: Why because the word saint to set aside is something holy.

4654
04:21:54,239 --> 04:21:57,159
But you mean there's not a different notion of the

4655
04:21:57,200 --> 04:22:02,000
word say too within that the ones who finished the race,

4656
04:22:02,799 --> 04:22:06,559
the ones who are theosis? Like why do why am

4657
04:22:06,600 --> 04:22:09,799
I push into thinking that words just have one meaning?

4658
04:22:09,840 --> 04:22:13,479
Which is exactly why they have obviously father can only

4659
04:22:13,559 --> 04:22:17,719
have one meaning and call no man father, And I don't.

4660
04:22:17,559 --> 04:22:23,600
Speaker 75: Know exactly I'm gonna have some theories why why they

4661
04:22:24,040 --> 04:22:31,159
struggle with this the idea that words could have multiple

4662
04:22:31,200 --> 04:22:36,079
meanings in different contexts. But what's your thoughts perhaps on

4663
04:22:37,719 --> 04:22:41,399
because I'm sure you've you've come across this. Words only

4664
04:22:41,479 --> 04:22:43,760
have one meaning. It means this, it means the word

4665
04:22:43,840 --> 04:22:45,479
means what it says, and it says what it means,

4666
04:22:45,520 --> 04:22:47,479
and it means what I obviously, whatever I say, not

4667
04:22:47,559 --> 04:22:48,040
what you say.

4668
04:22:51,319 --> 04:22:53,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, are you asking me? Yeah? I'm just curious.

4669
04:22:54,200 --> 04:22:54,440
Speaker 15: Yeah.

4670
04:22:55,200 --> 04:22:56,600
Speaker 2: I think mostly it's.

4671
04:22:56,559 --> 04:23:00,959
Speaker 26: Just due to like preconditioning and training from like Protestant

4672
04:23:01,079 --> 04:23:05,319
churches who sort of espouse these things like when Jesus

4673
04:23:05,360 --> 04:23:08,000
said to call no man father, he meant to call

4674
04:23:08,120 --> 04:23:10,120
no man father, you know, And it's like, well, they

4675
04:23:10,280 --> 04:23:14,319
make an exception for like your actual blood relative father,

4676
04:23:14,559 --> 04:23:18,239
but other than that, you know, it's like some you know,

4677
04:23:18,479 --> 04:23:21,719
sort of like dictation that he's making, like, oh, don't

4678
04:23:21,760 --> 04:23:24,840
ever call anyone else father. So I don't know, I

4679
04:23:24,879 --> 04:23:27,559
think it's just like I honestly think it's just due.

4680
04:23:27,440 --> 04:23:30,319
Speaker 18: To like bad training from Protestant There's another one that

4681
04:23:30,399 --> 04:23:34,200
I found too, call no man Rocca fool.

4682
04:23:36,000 --> 04:23:38,079
Speaker 2: Bible says calls all kinds of people full.

4683
04:23:38,280 --> 04:23:40,959
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good example. Yeah, Solomon calls

4684
04:23:41,000 --> 04:23:41,440
people fool.

4685
04:23:42,159 --> 04:23:46,799
Speaker 2: Rabbis Well, yeah, well I'm wondering too.

4686
04:23:48,559 --> 04:23:53,559
Speaker 18: So with the Reformers, you get kind of nominalism, and

4687
04:23:53,680 --> 04:23:57,959
you've seen stuff like this, and I'm wondering, if you know,

4688
04:23:58,000 --> 04:23:59,959
it's kind of I'm just speculating here, and it kind.

4689
04:23:59,879 --> 04:24:05,479
Speaker 2: Of keeper level. Do some of those philosophical errors perhaps

4690
04:24:05,639 --> 04:24:09,159
condition influence them in a way to be conditioned to

4691
04:24:09,239 --> 04:24:11,040
think of Well, obviously words just have one me.

4692
04:24:12,719 --> 04:24:16,639
Speaker 18: Because I believe in uniucacy and nominalism, and not that

4693
04:24:16,680 --> 04:24:18,879
these people are actually conscious of that, but the Reformers

4694
04:24:18,959 --> 04:24:19,520
definitely were.

4695
04:24:23,360 --> 04:24:25,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, good questions. I'm going to move on here.

4696
04:24:25,280 --> 04:24:30,000
I appreciate that. So we're taking people who disagree tonight.

4697
04:24:30,120 --> 04:24:39,280
So it's people who have arguments disagreements. Mark. By the way,

4698
04:24:39,319 --> 04:24:42,040
here's the quote that Father Deacon was referring to. It's

4699
04:24:42,920 --> 04:24:47,319
ignacious Epistle to the Simernians, and it is chapter eight,

4700
04:24:47,600 --> 04:24:49,440
nothing to be done without the bishop. Where the bishop is,

4701
04:24:49,639 --> 04:24:54,920
there's the Eucharist, there is the Catholic Church. Yes, it's

4702
04:24:55,000 --> 04:24:59,239
exactly thing too, Mark, You and I'm mute.

4703
04:25:00,280 --> 04:25:00,840
Speaker 2: Can you hear me?

4704
04:25:01,280 --> 04:25:01,479
Speaker 8: Yeah?

4705
04:25:02,680 --> 04:25:03,000
Speaker 2: Thanks?

4706
04:25:03,840 --> 04:25:04,040
Speaker 35: Yeah.

4707
04:25:04,159 --> 04:25:04,680
Speaker 12: So I'm like.

4708
04:25:06,319 --> 04:25:11,280
Speaker 76: Like a Calvinistic, like Baptist kind of perspective, and I

4709
04:25:11,319 --> 04:25:13,319
don't have like an argument per se, but I just

4710
04:25:13,440 --> 04:25:17,040
kind of wanted to talk about like concupiscence.

4711
04:25:17,760 --> 04:25:22,200
Speaker 2: And yeah, just because basically, so, yeah, basically.

4712
04:25:21,879 --> 04:25:24,559
Speaker 76: I've been learning more about even just the Reformed and

4713
04:25:25,639 --> 04:25:29,639
Lutheran understanding. I know there's even like some differences between

4714
04:25:29,680 --> 04:25:34,000
different individuals and whatnot, But it seems like, at least

4715
04:25:35,319 --> 04:25:39,719
from what I can surmise that for the main difference

4716
04:25:39,760 --> 04:25:43,479
between the worth that the Worthodox position denies that concupisence

4717
04:25:43,639 --> 04:25:44,000
is sin.

4718
04:25:44,200 --> 04:25:44,559
Speaker 2: Correct.

4719
04:25:44,760 --> 04:25:48,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, because James says that desire when it has given,

4720
04:25:48,159 --> 04:25:50,479
when it is consented to, gives birth to sent So

4721
04:25:50,559 --> 04:25:53,360
the desire is not the sin. The consenting to the

4722
04:25:54,040 --> 04:25:55,360
passions is what the sin is?

4723
04:25:57,040 --> 04:25:57,760
Speaker 2: Right, Okay?

4724
04:25:57,959 --> 04:26:01,079
Speaker 76: And so then and then I so one thing that

4725
04:26:01,159 --> 04:26:04,479
I'm wondering is like, is I mean I read though

4726
04:26:05,159 --> 04:26:07,920
I actually have a copy of like the Orthodox Study Bible,

4727
04:26:08,799 --> 04:26:11,360
and I was looking at the some of the passages

4728
04:26:11,399 --> 04:26:15,280
on Roman seven. So I'm wondering, what is kind of

4729
04:26:15,360 --> 04:26:19,520
what is the understanding of the language of indwelling sin.

4730
04:26:20,920 --> 04:26:23,799
Speaker 2: If it's not like you know, you're saying it's it's

4731
04:26:23,879 --> 04:26:24,120
not it.

4732
04:26:24,559 --> 04:26:27,879
Speaker 4: So it can't be a literal thing that dwells because

4733
04:26:28,040 --> 04:26:31,159
everything that has existence or being is created by God,

4734
04:26:31,319 --> 04:26:33,760
and we know that God is not the creator of sin,

4735
04:26:34,280 --> 04:26:36,879
because it would be the Manichean position to say that

4736
04:26:36,920 --> 04:26:39,120
there's a substance or a thing that exists that is

4737
04:26:39,200 --> 04:26:43,079
called sin. So it's a man It's actually a Manichean position, right.

4738
04:26:43,239 --> 04:26:46,399
Speaker 76: So yeah, And so one thing that I've seen is

4739
04:26:46,479 --> 04:26:48,559
I've been studying more of the at least some of

4740
04:26:48,600 --> 04:26:51,879
the Protestant people talking about it, is that they deny

4741
04:26:52,159 --> 04:26:55,559
that position. Like in the Book of Conquered, for example,

4742
04:26:55,680 --> 04:26:59,120
there's like a section about different like controversies that arose,

4743
04:26:59,200 --> 04:27:02,440
and one of them, it's called the flaking controversy where

4744
04:27:02,479 --> 04:27:05,719
the sky. Basically he was a Lutheran and he was

4745
04:27:05,879 --> 04:27:10,639
articulating that position that you just explained that that humans

4746
04:27:11,040 --> 04:27:16,200
in their substance are actually sinful and that you know,

4747
04:27:16,280 --> 04:27:18,360
we're made in the image of Satan after the fall

4748
04:27:18,440 --> 04:27:21,559
of crazy stuff, and that's like denied by the Lutherans.

4749
04:27:21,600 --> 04:27:23,600
Speaker 4: Well, but even if they deny that, that doesn't mean

4750
04:27:23,600 --> 04:27:25,879
they're consistent because if you deny that, but then you

4751
04:27:25,920 --> 04:27:28,079
think that there's this thing called a law of sin

4752
04:27:28,799 --> 04:27:32,520
that's at work in you, then if then that means again,

4753
04:27:32,719 --> 04:27:34,840
sin is still something that's part of your nature. How

4754
04:27:34,920 --> 04:27:36,600
can sin be something that's in nature?

4755
04:27:37,520 --> 04:27:40,520
Speaker 76: Okay, okay, so kind of so am I So, just

4756
04:27:40,639 --> 04:27:43,879
to clarify what you're saying, you're saying that even if

4757
04:27:43,959 --> 04:27:46,719
they say that that they say it's just accidental, they're

4758
04:27:46,760 --> 04:27:49,399
being inconsistent because of the way they talk about it.

4759
04:27:50,200 --> 04:27:51,239
Speaker 2: Is that kind of what you mean?

4760
04:27:51,399 --> 04:27:55,399
Speaker 4: Well, I mean yeah, I mean conceivably any specific individual

4761
04:27:55,440 --> 04:27:58,920
Protestant could have all manner positions. But in the case

4762
04:27:59,000 --> 04:28:03,479
of Lutherans, I mean they understand their theology at times

4763
04:28:03,559 --> 04:28:06,559
departs from Luther himself, because Luther said man is an

4764
04:28:06,639 --> 04:28:09,200
ass that's ridden either by God or by the devil.

4765
04:28:09,799 --> 04:28:12,079
If you read Bondage of the Will, Luther basically says

4766
04:28:12,159 --> 04:28:14,680
that we're just basically sin machines. That's all we do

4767
04:28:14,840 --> 04:28:18,520
is sin. It's even more radical than Calvin's told a

4768
04:28:18,600 --> 04:28:22,200
privity position. So, I mean they can say one thing,

4769
04:28:22,360 --> 04:28:25,440
but I think the key issue to refuting this is

4770
04:28:25,559 --> 04:28:28,079
not so much worrying about like going into Roman seven

4771
04:28:28,200 --> 04:28:31,079
or whatever, because Roman seven for us, as Paul, is

4772
04:28:31,200 --> 04:28:33,840
using an analogy of something that's a law that's at

4773
04:28:33,879 --> 04:28:36,280
work or a principle that's at work in my members,

4774
04:28:36,639 --> 04:28:40,799
meaning that I have this tendency to go against God's

4775
04:28:40,879 --> 04:28:42,920
law and to do things that are wrong. But that

4776
04:28:42,959 --> 04:28:45,639
doesn't make my nature or my body bad. It just

4777
04:28:45,760 --> 04:28:48,879
means that I have a tendency to commit an action

4778
04:28:49,079 --> 04:28:52,200
of will that is a sin. For us, sin is

4779
04:28:52,280 --> 04:28:54,639
not a state of being. It's not a thing. It's

4780
04:28:54,719 --> 04:28:56,959
always an act of the will against the good or

4781
04:28:56,959 --> 04:28:59,120
against God's law. That's all I can ever be. And

4782
04:28:59,200 --> 04:29:01,319
so the Church Father's it's defined sin as somethody that's

4783
04:29:01,319 --> 04:29:04,079
a privation. It's not a thing, because anything that has

4784
04:29:04,200 --> 04:29:07,319
being or substance is something that God created. Our Nature's created.

4785
04:29:07,680 --> 04:29:10,200
We have a being, we have substance, we have a will,

4786
04:29:10,280 --> 04:29:12,840
we have desires, and God gave us those things so

4787
04:29:12,879 --> 04:29:15,479
they could never inherently be sin. And I think that's

4788
04:29:15,520 --> 04:29:17,479
the point that that we see sin as an action

4789
04:29:17,559 --> 04:29:18,680
of the will and not a state of being.

4790
04:29:19,920 --> 04:29:26,399
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, Yeah that makes sense. So yeah, okay.

4791
04:29:26,760 --> 04:29:29,559
Speaker 76: Another another thing that I was kind of curious about

4792
04:29:29,639 --> 04:29:33,680
along the same lines or just trying to get understand more,

4793
04:29:33,840 --> 04:29:39,280
is okay or yeah, basically I know you it's your

4794
04:29:39,319 --> 04:29:43,600
guys view that that tendency to sin, even though it's

4795
04:29:43,719 --> 04:29:47,200
not sin itself, it's not something that like inhres and

4796
04:29:47,840 --> 04:29:52,479
in our substance for that proclivity to sin that happens

4797
04:29:52,559 --> 04:30:00,280
because of the fall, right, yes, okay, okay, and so okay, yeah,

4798
04:30:00,319 --> 04:30:03,520
that was just clarification I want, okay, So, and I

4799
04:30:03,639 --> 04:30:06,879
know that it's your guy's position that you deny like

4800
04:30:07,000 --> 04:30:10,440
any kind of imputed guilt from Adam correct.

4801
04:30:11,159 --> 04:30:14,639
Speaker 4: Right, guilt cannot be a state of being because guilt

4802
04:30:14,719 --> 04:30:17,920
has only had through individual actions or what we call

4803
04:30:18,000 --> 04:30:20,360
actual sins. So we agree with the Roman Catholics on

4804
04:30:20,440 --> 04:30:22,280
this point that sin is an action of the will,

4805
04:30:22,360 --> 04:30:24,959
is not a state of being. Okay, it could never

4806
04:30:25,000 --> 04:30:27,280
be something that you inherit. In fact, that's why Ezekiel

4807
04:30:27,319 --> 04:30:29,200
says that the sin the father should not be put

4808
04:30:29,239 --> 04:30:30,840
to death for the sense the son should not be

4809
04:30:30,879 --> 04:30:31,920
to put the death in sins of the father.

4810
04:30:32,760 --> 04:30:35,399
Speaker 76: Yeah, okay, And I wanted to bring up that Ezekiel

4811
04:30:35,680 --> 04:30:40,239
eighteen passage because because I know that the Orthodox kind

4812
04:30:40,280 --> 04:30:44,879
of talk more about death as like something that we

4813
04:30:45,000 --> 04:30:48,399
all will die because of Adam sin, even though we're

4814
04:30:48,440 --> 04:30:50,600
not all guilty because of Adam sin.

4815
04:30:50,840 --> 04:30:51,159
Speaker 4: Correct.

4816
04:30:51,760 --> 04:30:54,559
Speaker 77: But I guess what I'm wondering is, how does that

4817
04:30:54,879 --> 04:30:56,879
if like the way that at least kind of going

4818
04:30:56,959 --> 04:30:59,719
off that Ezekiel passage, it makes it seem as if

4819
04:30:59,799 --> 04:31:03,840
like death is a penalty for people committing sin.

4820
04:31:04,600 --> 04:31:07,120
Speaker 2: So how do you understand the fact that everyone dies

4821
04:31:07,280 --> 04:31:08,840
even though not everyone is guilty.

4822
04:31:09,200 --> 04:31:12,000
Speaker 4: Well, in the same way that if a mom has

4823
04:31:12,040 --> 04:31:16,000
a child and she's you know, she drinks alcohol, the

4824
04:31:16,200 --> 04:31:18,879
child hat well, it can be born with fetal alcohol syndrome,

4825
04:31:18,959 --> 04:31:20,920
but he's not guilty of sin. So he has the

4826
04:31:21,000 --> 04:31:23,600
consequences of the mother's sin, but that doesn't mean he's

4827
04:31:23,639 --> 04:31:25,639
guilty for the action of the mom's sin. Even though

4828
04:31:25,639 --> 04:31:29,360
he experiences the consequences. If somebody poisons my talent with

4829
04:31:29,520 --> 04:31:32,680
fentanyl in the water and everybody becomes drug addicts, it's

4830
04:31:32,760 --> 04:31:35,239
not their fault. They are not guilty of being drug

4831
04:31:35,239 --> 04:31:38,479
addicts because someone because the effects of somebody's sins hit them.

4832
04:31:38,840 --> 04:31:41,440
So in the same way, we feel the effects of

4833
04:31:41,479 --> 04:31:44,440
adam sin, but we're not guilty for his sin. We

4834
04:31:44,520 --> 04:31:46,920
are guilty for the sins that we individually commit. But

4835
04:31:47,879 --> 04:31:50,959
great questions. I appreciate that we're going to move on

4836
04:31:51,159 --> 04:32:00,719
to dominic if you want a full treatment of like

4837
04:32:00,760 --> 04:32:03,520
the Protestant Calvinist position. Again, as we talked about earlier

4838
04:32:03,559 --> 04:32:06,760
in Tonight's Dream, I did on my clips channel a

4839
04:32:06,840 --> 04:32:12,639
really lengthy two part discussion with Sam Chamoun on Calvinism,

4840
04:32:12,719 --> 04:32:14,600
and I did one with Church of the Eternal Logos

4841
04:32:14,680 --> 04:32:31,000
on Calvinism. Go ahead, dominic dominic Cabralukay, Yeah, I'd like.

4842
04:32:31,079 --> 04:32:35,000
Speaker 2: To discuss free grace theology. Okay.

4843
04:32:35,120 --> 04:32:39,360
Speaker 41: So Roumins four is kind of contradicting James too, because

4844
04:32:39,440 --> 04:32:42,280
you see it says if Abraham were justified by works,

4845
04:32:42,319 --> 04:32:44,760
he had went off to glory, but not before God

4846
04:32:44,840 --> 04:32:46,079
for what saved the scriptures.

4847
04:32:46,120 --> 04:32:47,120
Speaker 2: Abraham believed God.

4848
04:32:48,559 --> 04:32:50,639
Speaker 4: You're just why do you assume it's a contradiction. Maybe

4849
04:32:50,680 --> 04:32:52,319
it's your interpretation that's wrong.

4850
04:32:53,399 --> 04:32:55,280
Speaker 2: But because it says on verse four and now to

4851
04:32:55,399 --> 04:32:56,920
him that works there, So.

4852
04:32:56,920 --> 04:32:59,600
Speaker 4: It's your interpretation that's wrong. It's not a contradiction, it's

4853
04:32:59,600 --> 04:33:00,360
your inter utation.

4854
04:33:03,079 --> 04:33:03,520
Speaker 2: Okay.

4855
04:33:03,680 --> 04:33:07,680
Speaker 41: I see what about Romans four or five that says

4856
04:33:07,799 --> 04:33:09,240
the unrighteous.

4857
04:33:08,720 --> 04:33:09,360
Speaker 4: That count on.

4858
04:33:10,840 --> 04:33:14,520
Speaker 41: Don Jesus Christ will his faith is counted for righteousness.

4859
04:33:16,000 --> 04:33:18,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, but faith, according to Paul, has to be living

4860
04:33:18,959 --> 04:33:21,880
and active and working through love to count. So what

4861
04:33:22,080 --> 04:33:23,240
kind of faith are you talking about?

4862
04:33:27,400 --> 04:33:30,520
Speaker 41: Well, I mean just basically a working faith that I

4863
04:33:31,040 --> 04:33:34,319
would say is okay. So I would say the basis

4864
04:33:34,439 --> 04:33:37,520
to be saved is at least having faith in Jesus Christ,

4865
04:33:38,200 --> 04:33:40,560
because you know, everyone knows the Ephesians two a nine

4866
04:33:41,520 --> 04:33:42,360
it says, you know, no.

4867
04:33:42,720 --> 04:33:44,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, But so all of this is right, But all

4868
04:33:44,639 --> 04:33:46,319
of this is just based on the Protestant picking and

4869
04:33:46,439 --> 04:33:49,400
choosing of certain verses to ignoring all the other verses.

4870
04:33:49,439 --> 04:33:51,720
Where when I'm asking about what kind of faith, Paul says,

4871
04:33:51,959 --> 04:33:55,119
faith worketh by love. That's what counts. The faith that

4872
04:33:55,279 --> 04:33:58,479
is working. So it can't just be this mental rational

4873
04:33:58,599 --> 04:34:03,919
notional faith, believing that you know, Jesus is the Savior,

4874
04:34:04,000 --> 04:34:06,720
and he imputes grace to me like Protestants think. Because again,

4875
04:34:06,799 --> 04:34:09,560
in many places, Paul specifies that his faith working. So

4876
04:34:10,159 --> 04:34:13,080
Paul himself says, it's faith that works by love, which

4877
04:34:13,159 --> 04:34:15,319
is exactly what James is saying. So it's not there's

4878
04:34:15,360 --> 04:34:18,040
no contradiction. I'm mad. What's up?

4879
04:34:22,159 --> 04:34:25,279
Speaker 2: Hello? Can you hear me?

4880
04:34:25,959 --> 04:34:26,279
Speaker 4: I can't?

4881
04:34:27,360 --> 04:34:30,479
Speaker 78: All right, I just had a quick question regarding the Trinity.

4882
04:34:30,680 --> 04:34:35,520
If that's okay with you? So Stovias Hippo when he

4883
04:34:35,599 --> 04:34:39,400
says in on the Doctrine Book one, chapter five, at

4884
04:34:39,439 --> 04:34:40,680
the Father and the Son.

4885
04:34:40,799 --> 04:34:44,200
Speaker 4: Cold on the Trinity or in Kridean on Christian Doctrine,

4886
04:34:44,200 --> 04:34:45,840
which book are you satting on?

4887
04:34:45,919 --> 04:34:51,240
Speaker 79: The Christian doctor in Gridian on the on the Doctrine

4888
04:34:51,840 --> 04:34:56,279
in Caridean, Yes, okay, go ahead.

4889
04:34:57,319 --> 04:34:59,040
Speaker 78: So when he says that the Father and the Son

4890
04:34:59,119 --> 04:35:02,520
the Holy Spirit each at individually substance would just be

4891
04:35:02,639 --> 04:35:06,279
talked about first substance or second substance, I.

4892
04:35:06,279 --> 04:35:08,159
Speaker 4: Don't know what you mean first or second substance. I

4893
04:35:08,200 --> 04:35:09,040
don't know what you're talking about.

4894
04:35:09,360 --> 04:35:11,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, like Arizona metaphysics, he puts the primary.

4895
04:35:11,759 --> 04:35:14,479
Speaker 4: Augustine is not going to be using Aristotelian metaphysics.

4896
04:35:15,400 --> 04:35:17,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, so no, this is what it means. Going to

4897
04:35:17,959 --> 04:35:19,599
hypothesis of three persons.

4898
04:35:19,880 --> 04:35:22,159
Speaker 4: He's not going to be using Aristotylian metaphysics.

4899
04:35:22,479 --> 04:35:25,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. The metaphysics he's using, No, it's not.

4900
04:35:26,240 --> 04:35:29,360
Speaker 4: Okay, what is it based on platonism and neoplatonism?

4901
04:35:30,240 --> 04:35:34,040
Speaker 2: Okay, so tell me what this means? Three three companies?

4902
04:35:34,119 --> 04:35:36,159
Speaker 4: Hold on, Let me let me where I'm at the

4903
04:35:36,240 --> 04:35:37,240
Encoreadian Which chapter?

4904
04:35:38,439 --> 04:35:41,799
Speaker 2: Uh, it's going to be book one, chapter five?

4905
04:35:48,840 --> 04:35:51,680
Speaker 4: Does it start moreover? The mind has been imbued with

4906
04:35:51,759 --> 04:35:54,840
the first elements of faith? Is that what you're talking about? No,

4907
04:35:56,040 --> 04:35:57,439
because you're talking about different work.

4908
04:35:58,599 --> 04:36:02,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's on the doc three. That's that's the work name.

4909
04:36:09,240 --> 04:36:09,880
Speaker 4: Okay, I got it.

4910
04:36:10,840 --> 04:36:14,520
Speaker 78: So would you name these three coupley substances would be concrete,

4911
04:36:14,560 --> 04:36:15,200
dre abstract.

4912
04:36:17,880 --> 04:36:18,360
Speaker 8: Let me let me.

4913
04:36:18,479 --> 04:36:22,799
Speaker 4: I'm going to hold on. So chapter book one, Chapter five,

4914
04:36:22,880 --> 04:36:24,799
The Trinity, the true object of enjoyment.

4915
04:36:26,360 --> 04:36:29,159
Speaker 2: I'm assuming it you should talk about ecept the three

4916
04:36:29,240 --> 04:36:31,919
of them. They're try you. It goes about pyr coursis

4917
04:36:32,080 --> 04:36:33,240
was about consequentiality?

4918
04:36:33,720 --> 04:36:36,520
Speaker 4: Does it? Does it begin? The true objects? Of enjoyment

4919
04:36:36,560 --> 04:36:37,919
in our Father, son and Holy Spirit?

4920
04:36:38,000 --> 04:36:43,000
Speaker 2: Is that it? I'm pretty sure? I mean, do you

4921
04:36:43,080 --> 04:36:43,279
have it?

4922
04:36:43,400 --> 04:36:44,200
Speaker 4: Or I don't understand?

4923
04:36:45,439 --> 04:36:48,439
Speaker 2: It's not with Marna, So it's care to ask you? Yeah?

4924
04:36:48,599 --> 04:36:51,439
Speaker 4: Ok, fair enough? Okay, so I have it pulled up.

4925
04:36:51,479 --> 04:36:52,319
And then what's the question?

4926
04:36:53,000 --> 04:36:55,520
Speaker 78: Yes, I was asking, so the three the three couple

4927
04:36:55,520 --> 04:36:58,400
of substances, right, so you know obviously some people can

4928
04:36:58,479 --> 04:37:01,159
interpret diferent right, So I was wondering what the correct

4929
04:37:01,279 --> 04:37:04,319
the pradition is like? Would it be concrete through substances

4930
04:37:04,560 --> 04:37:06,520
or to be abstract through substances?

4931
04:37:07,520 --> 04:37:11,080
Speaker 4: It's neither one because that terminology isn't applicable to the trinity.

4932
04:37:11,520 --> 04:37:14,599
There are three hypostases with one essence, so that it

4933
04:37:14,639 --> 04:37:16,520
has nothing to do with abstract or concrete.

4934
04:37:16,959 --> 04:37:20,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, are you with what concrete is? In?

4935
04:37:21,159 --> 04:37:24,360
Speaker 4: Whose philosophy? You keep asking about Aristotle? And Augustine is.

4936
04:37:24,360 --> 04:37:27,479
Speaker 2: Not influenced by the basic is the basic categorism met

4937
04:37:27,479 --> 04:37:30,400
pphysics of who of Aristotle?

4938
04:37:30,720 --> 04:37:33,080
Speaker 4: Why do you keep asking Aristotal questions when he's not

4939
04:37:33,400 --> 04:37:35,119
influenced by Aristotle and.

4940
04:37:35,200 --> 04:37:38,119
Speaker 2: The Plato and Ariosota they complement each other, for.

4941
04:37:38,119 --> 04:37:40,560
Speaker 4: Example, but Augustine is not influenced by Aristotle. So it

4942
04:37:40,599 --> 04:37:43,919
has nothing to do with that. You said, that's hypostasis

4943
04:37:44,040 --> 04:37:48,080
in Christian theology, is not. The closest equivalent is Aristotle's

4944
04:37:48,080 --> 04:37:50,479
notion of the individual the agent.

4945
04:37:51,599 --> 04:37:55,080
Speaker 2: Okay, so the agent. So we see the three hypotheses,

4946
04:37:55,119 --> 04:37:56,360
the unified to one agent.

4947
04:37:56,279 --> 04:38:00,000
Speaker 4: Or no, three agents with one essence.

4948
04:38:00,599 --> 04:38:02,720
Speaker 78: Three agents, one essence. And would you say that your

4949
04:38:02,759 --> 04:38:06,599
God's peer act. No, you wouldn't say about peer act.

4950
04:38:07,000 --> 04:38:09,200
Speaker 4: Now we're not a Riskitilians like, so you're trying to

4951
04:38:09,720 --> 04:38:11,880
Are you a Muslim that's trying to understand this stuff?

4952
04:38:13,360 --> 04:38:13,560
Speaker 2: Yeah?

4953
04:38:14,639 --> 04:38:16,720
Speaker 4: Okay, so but you have no idea what you're dealing with.

4954
04:38:16,840 --> 04:38:19,479
You're trying to import these ideas from systems that you

4955
04:38:20,080 --> 04:38:22,599
have nothing to do with what Augustin is talking about.

4956
04:38:22,720 --> 04:38:24,799
Speaker 2: No, no, no, I'm an only ext Christian went to

4957
04:38:25,759 --> 04:38:26,400
Christian academy.

4958
04:38:26,599 --> 04:38:29,520
Speaker 4: So that doesn't mean you know what you're talking about

4959
04:38:29,560 --> 04:38:32,759
because you went to a Christian academy for sure. So

4960
04:38:32,919 --> 04:38:34,599
well then if you knew, if you knew Christian, then

4961
04:38:34,599 --> 04:38:36,639
you would know that that Orthodox are not going to

4962
04:38:36,680 --> 04:38:37,439
say God's.

4963
04:38:38,680 --> 04:38:42,400
Speaker 78: You hold a Parlemist rights. So in chapter seven Deeds

4964
04:38:42,439 --> 04:38:44,000
of the Hunt of the chapters, we said that God

4965
04:38:44,080 --> 04:38:45,919
is in natural beings. I mean, that's his energy. The

4966
04:38:46,000 --> 04:38:48,040
mythics would be slow down.

4967
04:38:48,040 --> 04:38:50,279
Speaker 4: I've read one hundred fifty chapters. What slow down? What

4968
04:38:50,360 --> 04:38:50,680
are you say?

4969
04:38:51,200 --> 04:38:53,560
Speaker 2: Chapter seventy eight, what about you the chapters?

4970
04:38:54,200 --> 04:38:57,520
Speaker 78: He says that God I mean is mythics because the

4971
04:38:57,720 --> 04:38:59,520
energy can be normally referred as to God as well.

4972
04:39:00,159 --> 04:39:04,799
God is the nature of all beings, meaning that's his operations.

4973
04:39:05,040 --> 04:39:09,720
Is nature, and just obviously Tellio's nature, he substantial nature,

4974
04:39:10,200 --> 04:39:10,840
essential nature.

4975
04:39:11,000 --> 04:39:13,080
Speaker 4: To slow down and stop trying to play word games.

4976
04:39:14,000 --> 04:39:14,919
Speaker 2: Is games.

4977
04:39:16,479 --> 04:39:18,400
Speaker 4: I'm pulling up one hundred fifty chapters and you're reading

4978
04:39:18,439 --> 04:39:19,000
it super fast.

4979
04:39:19,040 --> 04:39:21,840
Speaker 2: Which one chapter seventy sir?

4980
04:39:22,880 --> 04:39:32,119
Speaker 4: What seventy eight? Yes, sir, God's nature is utterly remote.

4981
04:39:32,159 --> 04:39:34,400
This is talking about apathetic theology. So what's your point?

4982
04:39:35,040 --> 04:39:37,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, so so you go to apathetic theology, right, and

4983
04:39:37,200 --> 04:39:38,799
so with God is a nature of all beings.

4984
04:39:39,439 --> 04:39:41,040
Speaker 4: God is not the nature of beings. So you have

4985
04:39:41,080 --> 04:39:43,240
no idea what you're talking about. You know, we're not pantheus.

4986
04:39:43,319 --> 04:39:47,880
No he's not. No, he's not the uncreated nature is

4987
04:39:47,959 --> 04:39:49,720
not the nature of created beings.

4988
04:39:50,200 --> 04:39:52,680
Speaker 2: J He says in chapter seventy I have it in

4989
04:39:52,720 --> 04:39:53,119
front of me.

4990
04:39:53,840 --> 04:39:56,919
Speaker 4: It's talking about God's uncreated nature, which is not the

4991
04:39:57,000 --> 04:40:00,840
nature of created beings. No, no orthodoxy thedox person believes that.

4992
04:40:00,919 --> 04:40:03,759
That's ridiculous. Why are you saying this? You think we

4993
04:40:03,799 --> 04:40:04,880
don't know our own theology?

4994
04:40:05,560 --> 04:40:08,919
Speaker 78: No, No, greg good pelancy obviously offer Koreish exideal if

4995
04:40:08,959 --> 04:40:12,119
you see that teleological nature of God's identical to all

4996
04:40:12,200 --> 04:40:13,279
beings of nature.

4997
04:40:13,200 --> 04:40:15,959
Speaker 4: No, it's not the nature of God is not the

4998
04:40:16,520 --> 04:40:17,560
nature of created beings.

4999
04:40:17,799 --> 04:40:19,959
Speaker 2: Hey, do you have the crew translation I have?

5000
04:40:20,599 --> 04:40:22,840
Speaker 4: Like you know, you don't know the correct You're a Muslim?

5001
04:40:22,919 --> 04:40:25,840
What are you talking about? I have it in front

5002
04:40:25,880 --> 04:40:26,439
of me right here.

5003
04:40:27,240 --> 04:40:30,639
Speaker 2: Listen, I'm a Muslim, but I but you have no idea?

5004
04:40:30,680 --> 04:40:32,919
Speaker 4: What Christian do you think? The Christian theology teaches that

5005
04:40:33,000 --> 04:40:35,200
God's nature is the nature of creative beings.

5006
04:40:35,240 --> 04:40:36,720
Speaker 2: It's not what I'm teaching.

5007
04:40:38,119 --> 04:40:39,759
Speaker 4: I have it in front of me. He does not

5008
04:40:39,919 --> 04:40:43,799
say that as well. Well, but yeah, but you guys

5009
04:40:43,919 --> 04:40:47,479
are commit takia and lie. So that's that's not what

5010
04:40:47,599 --> 04:40:48,200
he says.

5011
04:40:49,479 --> 04:40:56,680
Speaker 2: As I committed correct as who holds I do?

5012
04:40:57,200 --> 04:41:00,919
Speaker 4: Here we go with the Arabic bullshitting out the Arabic

5013
04:41:01,040 --> 04:41:03,319
term then nobody that doesn't impress of anybody over here.

5014
04:41:03,599 --> 04:41:05,439
We don't care that you spin out Arabic terms.

5015
04:41:06,080 --> 04:41:10,840
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, sir, but you hold to antitosis. Correct.

5016
04:41:11,560 --> 04:41:14,520
Speaker 4: Every nature is utterly remote and absolutely estranged from the

5017
04:41:14,560 --> 04:41:17,680
divine nature. The very first sentence in this paragraph refutes

5018
04:41:17,720 --> 04:41:18,919
this idiocy of what you're saying.

5019
04:41:19,759 --> 04:41:25,840
Speaker 78: Okay, okay, so okay, yeah, So if you go down,

5020
04:41:26,000 --> 04:41:27,680
he says, this too is a wisdom of goodness. And

5021
04:41:27,720 --> 04:41:30,240
simply all the erycip of God or of God will

5022
04:41:30,479 --> 04:41:33,840
also the saint's falling theology. And since the God also

5023
04:41:33,959 --> 04:41:35,479
called the nature all of beings as.

5024
04:41:35,360 --> 04:41:37,880
Speaker 2: He of all that you partake in the methics.

5025
04:41:37,599 --> 04:41:40,240
Speaker 4: Of it is, you're not you're you're not even you're

5026
04:41:40,279 --> 04:41:44,439
not even reading it. You're like spitting your It says

5027
04:41:44,479 --> 04:41:46,639
he is the very listen. It says, he is the

5028
04:41:46,840 --> 04:41:50,000
very being of beings, and the form in the forms

5029
04:41:50,159 --> 04:41:52,040
as the primal form in the wisdom. That means he's

5030
04:41:52,080 --> 04:41:54,599
the source and the archetype of the created or order.

5031
04:41:55,720 --> 04:41:58,720
Speaker 2: So is essence identical to nature linguistically?

5032
04:41:59,520 --> 04:42:05,319
Speaker 80: Yes, okay, so God's essence is the same as his nature.

5033
04:42:06,799 --> 04:42:10,319
I never asked you just asked me if it was

5034
04:42:10,360 --> 04:42:10,599
the same.

5035
04:42:10,680 --> 04:42:12,279
Speaker 4: What do you mean You never asked so, So.

5036
04:42:12,720 --> 04:42:16,400
Speaker 2: It's telos identical to essence teleos.

5037
04:42:16,599 --> 04:42:19,319
Speaker 4: That's purpose, dude, what are you talking about? No, purpose

5038
04:42:19,439 --> 04:42:20,720
is not nature, dummy.

5039
04:42:21,080 --> 04:42:24,360
Speaker 2: Yes, telogical nature tilos.

5040
04:42:25,400 --> 04:42:26,919
Speaker 4: No, you don't even know. There's no such thing as

5041
04:42:26,959 --> 04:42:32,159
teleos teleological nature. Tilos is purpose. No, there's not. You

5042
04:42:32,200 --> 04:42:34,159
don't even. You don't know these terms, dude, You have

5043
04:42:34,240 --> 04:42:37,319
no idea what you're talking about. What do you think?

5044
04:42:37,959 --> 04:42:40,200
Do you listen? Listen to me, I'm telling you are theology.

5045
04:42:40,400 --> 04:42:42,799
Telos is purpose. It's not a nature.

5046
04:42:43,959 --> 04:42:46,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not a nature. Nobody said it's a nature.

5047
04:42:46,159 --> 04:42:48,560
Speaker 4: You just said teleological nature.

5048
04:42:49,720 --> 04:42:53,439
Speaker 2: Teleological nature. You just said that actual purpose.

5049
04:42:54,279 --> 04:42:58,520
Speaker 4: There's are you not teleos? You don't even you're not

5050
04:42:58,560 --> 04:43:03,080
even saying it right. Oh man, God's nature is not

5051
04:43:03,240 --> 04:43:04,680
a teleological nature.

5052
04:43:05,040 --> 04:43:06,560
Speaker 2: Okay, okay.

5053
04:43:08,080 --> 04:43:13,279
Speaker 4: Seventy eight verse, The very first sentence says, the very

5054
04:43:13,360 --> 04:43:16,200
first sentence, the very first sentence says that you're lying

5055
04:43:16,319 --> 04:43:18,639
about all this passage. You're lying? Why are you lying

5056
04:43:18,639 --> 04:43:19,200
about this past?

5057
04:43:19,279 --> 04:43:19,319
Speaker 10: Like?

5058
04:43:19,360 --> 04:43:19,880
Speaker 2: What do you like?

5059
04:43:21,159 --> 04:43:24,000
Speaker 4: Who told you this? So your your control f searching?

5060
04:43:24,080 --> 04:43:27,840
You haven't actually read this word? Yeah, it's in front

5061
04:43:27,840 --> 04:43:31,040
of everybody. It doesn't say that God's nature is created nature.

5062
04:43:31,200 --> 04:43:33,319
It says the very first sentence says the opposite of that,

5063
04:43:34,040 --> 04:43:35,279
I don't care what you have in front of you.

5064
04:43:36,919 --> 04:43:37,119
Speaker 2: The what.

5065
04:43:38,919 --> 04:43:40,599
Speaker 4: Nobody cares what you have in front of you?

5066
04:43:41,439 --> 04:43:42,639
Speaker 2: All right, sir, sir?

5067
04:43:43,279 --> 04:43:44,439
Speaker 35: Question sir, sir?

5068
04:43:46,639 --> 04:43:49,599
Speaker 2: So so your correct obviously.

5069
04:43:52,759 --> 04:43:55,200
Speaker 4: Is so this is the dumbest like, so is this

5070
04:43:55,360 --> 04:43:57,520
your new plan of attack? But let's talk about Islam first.

5071
04:43:57,560 --> 04:44:00,279
You want to talk about Islam? You just want wanna

5072
04:44:00,520 --> 04:44:02,560
You want to go through text that you don't even understand.

5073
04:44:02,560 --> 04:44:06,639
You don't want me to talk about as long? Now wait, sir, wait, sir, wait, sir?

5074
04:44:08,799 --> 04:44:12,479
Does it say yeah, I know it like I don't

5075
04:44:12,520 --> 04:44:16,119
know Calciton. Yeah, he is not nature because he is

5076
04:44:16,200 --> 04:44:20,240
beyond all nature. Do you see that you just said

5077
04:44:20,240 --> 04:44:21,680
he you just said he has nature.

5078
04:44:22,799 --> 04:44:24,479
Speaker 2: I'm on my phone. I can't see your life stream,

5079
04:44:24,479 --> 04:44:25,279
but I have the skin right here.

5080
04:44:25,400 --> 04:44:26,799
Speaker 4: I'm reading. I don't want to talk about the skin.

5081
04:44:26,919 --> 04:44:28,080
I'm reading it to you right here.

5082
04:44:28,560 --> 04:44:33,040
Speaker 2: Translation, Sahi, you.

5083
04:44:34,560 --> 04:44:36,159
Speaker 4: You think these are these are hot deeths?

5084
04:44:37,639 --> 04:44:38,119
Speaker 15: How do you know?

5085
04:44:38,200 --> 04:44:40,240
Speaker 4: You don't you don't know our theology? How do you

5086
04:44:40,319 --> 04:44:42,720
know you have the right translation. I'm I'm at a

5087
04:44:42,759 --> 04:44:46,319
freaking Orthodox website. What are you talking about. We're not

5088
04:44:46,360 --> 04:44:49,159
gonna listen to you lying Muslims about our palam Mos.

5089
04:44:49,240 --> 04:44:51,360
Come on, hi, sir.

5090
04:44:51,599 --> 04:44:53,560
Speaker 2: So I just wanted to ask you a quick You're

5091
04:44:53,599 --> 04:44:54,080
just trolling.

5092
04:44:54,200 --> 04:44:56,319
Speaker 4: You're a lying troll. Give me, give me a break.

5093
04:44:56,319 --> 04:44:57,119
You're a lying troll.

5094
04:44:58,119 --> 04:44:58,799
Speaker 2: No, don't kick me.

5095
04:44:59,240 --> 04:45:01,200
Speaker 4: You want to qush to You don't want to just

5096
04:45:01,240 --> 04:45:03,520
ask questions. You came here to lie. So you didn't

5097
04:45:03,599 --> 04:45:07,279
know what you thought as you thought Augustine wasn't Aristotilian.

5098
04:45:07,439 --> 04:45:10,720
You thought Augusta wasn't Aristotilian first, and now you're saying

5099
04:45:10,759 --> 04:45:13,000
that you thought that you thought Gregory Palamas says that

5100
04:45:13,080 --> 04:45:15,080
God's nature is the nature of all creation?

5101
04:45:16,360 --> 04:45:18,400
Speaker 2: All right? Did do you hold a physicism? Sir?

5102
04:45:18,720 --> 04:45:19,080
Speaker 4: Of course?

5103
04:45:20,720 --> 04:45:23,520
Speaker 2: Okay, So why you say that you didn't You didn't

5104
04:45:23,520 --> 04:45:24,119
know what that was.

5105
04:45:24,680 --> 04:45:26,040
Speaker 4: I didn't say I didn't know what that was. It

5106
04:45:26,119 --> 04:45:28,599
means two nature's uh huh?

5107
04:45:29,119 --> 04:45:33,439
Speaker 2: Okay, so you holted it. Of course.

5108
04:45:33,479 --> 04:45:36,319
Speaker 4: Saint Cyril teaches the communication of properties. Every Orthodox person

5109
04:45:36,360 --> 04:45:36,720
believes that.

5110
04:45:37,400 --> 04:45:39,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's Western theology.

5111
04:45:39,279 --> 04:45:41,680
Speaker 4: No, it's not. It's from Saint Cyril, You retard. St.

5112
04:45:41,720 --> 04:45:46,319
Cyril is not a Western theologian. It's from Cyril. You

5113
04:45:46,400 --> 04:45:48,840
said it's Western theology, so you have no idea what

5114
04:45:48,919 --> 04:45:49,639
you're talking about?

5115
04:45:50,400 --> 04:45:52,639
Speaker 2: Are you saints of Eastern.

5116
04:45:55,319 --> 04:46:03,759
Speaker 4: It's the stupidest shit I've ever heard, Dave Saint Cyril

5117
04:46:03,840 --> 04:46:08,680
of Western theology. Please clip that. That's the stupidest Muslim

5118
04:46:08,680 --> 04:46:11,599
ever who thought he was being sophisticated and smart by

5119
04:46:11,680 --> 04:46:13,720
talking fast and spitting out a bunch of terms that

5120
04:46:13,799 --> 04:46:15,319
he thought I didn't know, Like I didn't know what

5121
04:46:15,400 --> 04:46:18,360
community castio modius. Did we lecture through Cyril over here?

5122
04:46:19,240 --> 04:46:22,439
Like we've debated the Orientals? You think I've read tons

5123
04:46:22,479 --> 04:46:24,080
of Cyril? What are you talking about?

5124
04:46:24,479 --> 04:46:27,680
Speaker 2: I'm you, hey, Ja, what's up?

5125
04:46:30,319 --> 04:46:30,720
Speaker 4: What's up?

5126
04:46:32,959 --> 04:46:35,840
Speaker 2: Hey? Hey? I was just gonna ask a question.

5127
04:46:36,000 --> 04:46:40,720
Speaker 58: Maybe disagreement, I don't know, But what's the Orthodox view

5128
04:46:40,799 --> 04:46:42,479
on libertarian free will?

5129
04:46:43,040 --> 04:46:44,319
Speaker 2: Would would you say? We hope to that?

5130
04:46:47,000 --> 04:46:49,959
Speaker 4: I mean, we believe in the Patristic sense of free will?

5131
04:46:50,080 --> 04:46:53,119
So I don't know if that translates to quote libertarian

5132
04:46:53,200 --> 04:46:56,040
free will and some Enlightenment model.

5133
04:46:57,279 --> 04:47:02,759
Speaker 2: Okay, what about so mean? And I've heard that the Patristic.

5134
04:47:04,159 --> 04:47:05,919
Speaker 58: Version of free will is the idea that you can

5135
04:47:06,159 --> 04:47:07,599
choose between multiple goods?

5136
04:47:07,720 --> 04:47:08,200
Speaker 2: Is that greg?

5137
04:47:10,119 --> 04:47:13,919
Speaker 4: I mean, that's the argument of Saint Maximus about the

5138
04:47:14,080 --> 04:47:18,240
Escaton for why free will is not a something that's

5139
04:47:18,759 --> 04:47:20,040
just about the fallen state.

5140
04:47:21,200 --> 04:47:23,880
Speaker 58: What do you think about the argument that free will

5141
04:47:23,959 --> 04:47:26,560
seems to entail, or at least the ability that our

5142
04:47:26,599 --> 04:47:31,119
actions needed can for our actions to be morally praiseworthy,

5143
04:47:31,639 --> 04:47:34,759
that you need to be able to choose between good

5144
04:47:34,799 --> 04:47:35,240
and evil.

5145
04:47:40,119 --> 04:47:43,680
Speaker 4: I'm not sure that it's necessary, because Adam and Eve

5146
04:47:43,759 --> 04:47:47,639
could have continued in a state of innocence without evil

5147
04:47:48,360 --> 04:47:50,360
and been virtuous.

5148
04:47:52,000 --> 04:47:54,000
Speaker 2: But they still would have had the choice.

5149
04:47:54,720 --> 04:47:59,000
Speaker 58: That's kind of the point, Like the choice of choosing

5150
04:47:59,159 --> 04:48:00,599
a path heath.

5151
04:48:00,479 --> 04:48:03,400
Speaker 4: Of evil is no, But I'm saying that. I'm saying

5152
04:48:03,479 --> 04:48:05,639
that even if they had not had the option or

5153
04:48:05,680 --> 04:48:08,520
the ability to choose evil, there could still be virtue,

5154
04:48:08,560 --> 04:48:12,880
and there would there would still be the good because

5155
04:48:12,919 --> 04:48:15,880
there won't be the possibility of choosing evil in the Esketon,

5156
04:48:15,959 --> 04:48:17,880
So it has to be connected to multiple goods.

5157
04:48:19,240 --> 04:48:21,400
Speaker 2: You don't think that that possibility will be there.

5158
04:48:22,360 --> 04:48:27,279
Speaker 4: In the Escaton. Yeah, No, that's totally heretical. How would

5159
04:48:27,279 --> 04:48:28,439
there be evil in the Escton.

5160
04:48:30,279 --> 04:48:35,200
Speaker 58: Well, the explanation I've heard primarily, you know, and I'm getting.

5161
04:48:35,040 --> 04:48:38,159
Speaker 35: This primarily from prose, since scholars all admit is that

5162
04:48:38,880 --> 04:48:40,439
you're the you have a.

5163
04:48:40,439 --> 04:48:43,439
Speaker 2: Certain kind of character, character character.

5164
04:48:43,599 --> 04:48:45,080
Speaker 4: I mean, the Bible is very clear that there's no

5165
04:48:45,279 --> 04:48:47,720
evil in the escton. God will be all in all

5166
04:48:48,200 --> 04:48:49,639
death and hades are destroyed.

5167
04:48:49,680 --> 04:48:53,159
Speaker 58: There's no evil, right, but there would just be no evil,

5168
04:48:53,200 --> 04:48:55,759
but there would still be the potential basically.

5169
04:48:56,680 --> 04:48:57,560
Speaker 2: In the same way that you.

5170
04:48:57,599 --> 04:49:01,240
Speaker 58: Said, like, you know, how there is a difference between

5171
04:49:01,279 --> 04:49:05,279
something being potential and actualizing you know.

5172
04:49:06,080 --> 04:49:08,639
Speaker 4: The Well, no, there's no potential for evil. And the

5173
04:49:08,720 --> 04:49:10,759
reason that there's still free will is that free will

5174
04:49:10,880 --> 04:49:13,080
is not a choice between good and evil. That's the

5175
04:49:13,200 --> 04:49:15,799
fallen mode of willing. Free will is a choice between

5176
04:49:15,840 --> 04:49:18,680
multiple goods. That's this is Maximus's whole argument against people

5177
04:49:18,759 --> 04:49:19,159
like Origin.

5178
04:49:20,119 --> 04:49:24,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. I thought that was interesting because I know that

5179
04:49:24,159 --> 04:49:26,639
a common rebuttal to that is God, you know, that

5180
04:49:26,680 --> 04:49:30,599
would make God not possess free will. So I was

5181
04:49:30,680 --> 04:49:32,080
just kind of curious.

5182
04:49:32,919 --> 04:49:35,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, that's that's another way to Yeah, that's another

5183
04:49:35,520 --> 04:49:39,159
way to argue it. And also, if you read free

5184
04:49:39,240 --> 04:49:43,479
choice in Saint Maximus, Chapter five discusses this whole issue.

5185
04:49:43,560 --> 04:49:47,479
I think very well from Saint Maximus. Okay, yeah, and

5186
04:49:47,560 --> 04:50:00,279
that's online. You can find that very easily, are you.

5187
04:50:15,159 --> 04:50:18,360
Here's a smart man dark plus seventy seven to one dollar.

5188
04:50:19,680 --> 04:50:22,520
If any man wants to follow me, I will be there.

5189
04:50:22,599 --> 04:50:24,799
They will be my servant. If any man serve me,

5190
04:50:25,200 --> 04:50:28,599
he will honor my father. KJV Bible believing Christian don't

5191
04:50:28,599 --> 04:50:32,479
follow men like you do, Ring Kisser. Hey, you're just

5192
04:50:32,560 --> 04:50:36,000
an idiot. So there's even sillier review to give me

5193
04:50:36,080 --> 04:50:40,279
a dollar agent zero five dollars Boomer Hillsdale College professor impersonation.

5194
04:50:40,400 --> 04:50:41,840
But wait, what does a serpent do that?

5195
04:50:42,000 --> 04:50:42,319
Speaker 7: What is it?

5196
04:50:42,360 --> 04:50:46,639
Speaker 4: Because that's what it's like, what a serpent does by you?

5197
04:50:46,759 --> 04:50:47,040
Speaker 2: What's up?

5198
04:50:54,520 --> 04:50:54,720
Speaker 27: Yes?

5199
04:50:54,919 --> 04:51:00,479
Speaker 81: Do you think that the Epistle of Barnabas was written

5200
04:51:00,639 --> 04:51:04,080
by the Barnabas in the New Testament.

5201
04:51:05,400 --> 04:51:07,319
Speaker 4: I don't have any hard position on that.

5202
04:51:07,560 --> 04:51:14,319
Speaker 82: It's possible, okay, because I had heard that orthodox fold

5203
04:51:14,400 --> 04:51:18,840
that the Epistle of Barnabas is an authoritative, authentic text.

5204
04:51:19,639 --> 04:51:21,959
Speaker 4: I mean, it's not in the canon scripture, but it

5205
04:51:22,119 --> 04:51:23,959
might be from Barnabas.

5206
04:51:26,080 --> 04:51:27,919
Speaker 2: It might be from what it might be.

5207
04:51:27,959 --> 04:51:29,959
Speaker 4: From Barnabas, but that doesn't make it part of the

5208
04:51:30,040 --> 04:51:33,680
Canona Scripture. Okay, I mean, I got.

5209
04:51:33,759 --> 04:51:37,799
Speaker 2: I thought that it might have been, so really question about.

5210
04:51:37,560 --> 04:51:41,080
Speaker 4: It because ideas, Yeah, I think it does. It does,

5211
04:51:41,279 --> 04:51:44,560
and that's why probably why I didn't make it into

5212
04:51:44,599 --> 04:51:45,000
the canon.

5213
04:51:47,000 --> 04:51:50,439
Speaker 81: Okay, all right, I guess I had heard some misinformation

5214
04:51:50,599 --> 04:51:54,080
then about the Orthodox belief on the epithotic Thank you sure.

5215
04:51:54,360 --> 04:51:56,880
Speaker 4: I mean, we have the same New Testament canon as

5216
04:51:58,000 --> 04:52:01,599
Roman Catholics and Protestants, so not really in terms of

5217
04:52:01,639 --> 04:52:09,560
the books, there's not a difference there. So this is

5218
04:52:09,560 --> 04:52:12,119
for people who disagree. We've been going for almost five hours.

5219
04:52:12,520 --> 04:52:26,319
You who's you? Who's You'll notice this paragraph in one

5220
04:52:26,439 --> 04:52:29,680
hundred and fifty, chapter seventy eight says absolutely nothing like

5221
04:52:29,840 --> 04:52:32,279
what this goop Paul was saying. I mean, the very

5222
04:52:32,319 --> 04:52:36,279
first sentence is saying that God's nature is not created nature.

5223
04:52:40,040 --> 04:52:42,360
If God is a nature, then all the other things

5224
04:52:42,400 --> 04:52:49,599
are not nature. That's because of apatheticism. Then he quotes Maximus,

5225
04:52:49,759 --> 04:52:52,159
which is the and the capped dotions that things around

5226
04:52:52,279 --> 04:52:55,759
God those are the energies, and he says that if

5227
04:52:55,799 --> 04:52:58,080
you understand that, you don't know the essence, but you

5228
04:52:58,159 --> 04:53:00,880
know the energies, then your theology would be and you

5229
04:53:00,919 --> 04:53:04,000
will be in line with the saints. That's the essencenaries sinction.

5230
04:53:04,599 --> 04:53:06,599
God is the nature of all beings and referred to

5231
04:53:06,680 --> 04:53:09,360
as such sense all participate in him and receive their

5232
04:53:09,400 --> 04:53:14,639
constitution by participation. This is Maximus's teaching of Matexas. But

5233
04:53:14,880 --> 04:53:19,240
notice not by participation in his nature. So God is

5234
04:53:19,319 --> 04:53:22,159
the nature of all beings as their source, and since

5235
04:53:22,240 --> 04:53:25,680
they participate in him, giving them being, but they do

5236
04:53:25,799 --> 04:53:28,880
not participate in his nature. So this is where he

5237
04:53:28,959 --> 04:53:32,000
was misreading it. Thus, he is the being of beings,

5238
04:53:32,439 --> 04:53:35,240
the form of forms, because he is the source, prototype,

5239
04:53:35,360 --> 04:53:39,680
archetype of the created world. He is not nature, however,

5240
04:53:39,919 --> 04:53:43,639
created nature because he is beyond all nature. So these

5241
04:53:43,680 --> 04:53:47,639
people who don't have any proficiency in understanding the complexities

5242
04:53:47,680 --> 04:53:51,200
of palamos the essence inari distinction, confuse and jumble this

5243
04:53:51,400 --> 04:53:54,360
up and make God into a creature. You whose what's up?

5244
04:53:57,360 --> 04:53:57,599
Speaker 56: Hello?

5245
04:53:58,639 --> 04:54:02,040
Speaker 2: Well you can hear me because right now it's ringing,

5246
04:54:03,119 --> 04:54:08,119
I can here. Okay, So I don't know will this.

5247
04:54:08,240 --> 04:54:11,560
Speaker 59: Be some type of topic or a question, because it

5248
04:54:12,000 --> 04:54:13,880
still confuses me as.

5249
04:54:13,840 --> 04:54:17,279
Speaker 2: A type of soiluation of humanity. I'm alsort of description.

5250
04:54:18,080 --> 04:54:24,080
But my question is what about the Mennonites.

5251
04:54:24,319 --> 04:54:24,959
Speaker 69: They are like.

5252
04:54:25,200 --> 04:54:28,319
Speaker 2: Protestants who are cut off from.

5253
04:54:28,240 --> 04:54:32,319
Speaker 7: The world, like they don't have any excess on the electricity.

5254
04:54:31,799 --> 04:54:34,959
Speaker 4: On I don't know, Yeah, there'll still be.

5255
04:54:37,040 --> 04:54:37,240
Speaker 2: Yeah.

5256
04:54:37,560 --> 04:54:41,599
Speaker 23: My question is will they lose their solution when they die?

5257
04:54:42,680 --> 04:54:47,639
Speaker 4: If yes, why well I don't. We don't judge individual people,

5258
04:54:47,880 --> 04:54:51,000
but we can say that that group their profession of

5259
04:54:51,040 --> 04:54:55,599
faith is heterodox. So it's not my position to I

5260
04:54:55,799 --> 04:54:59,880
damn that Ezekiel over there and his buggy and Carr.

5261
04:55:00,759 --> 04:55:03,119
I don't know their destiny, but I do know that

5262
04:55:03,520 --> 04:55:05,680
they have They're a dumb cult. I can tell you

5263
04:55:05,720 --> 04:55:11,040
that for sure. Bleak. The Mennonites at my dad's house

5264
04:55:11,119 --> 04:55:13,599
used to steal his mail all the time. I mean,

5265
04:55:13,599 --> 04:55:15,360
excuse me, the Amish at my dad's house used to

5266
04:55:15,360 --> 04:55:18,599
steal his male. I don't know why. I guess they

5267
04:55:18,639 --> 04:55:21,400
thought they were gonna get a Playboy magazine or he

5268
04:55:21,560 --> 04:55:24,159
was gonna get gold bars to us. I don't know

5269
04:55:24,200 --> 04:55:26,360
what they were looking for, but my dad used to

5270
04:55:26,400 --> 04:55:29,560
complain all the time because the Amish would steal his male.

5271
04:55:29,799 --> 04:55:33,360
So they're not pious, saint saintly people. They're a dumb cult. Bleak,

5272
04:55:33,439 --> 04:55:35,520
what's up. I'm not being mean when I say that.

5273
04:55:35,680 --> 04:55:37,479
I say that because I don't want people to beat

5274
04:55:37,560 --> 04:55:41,959
in that dumb cult. Only people who live in the

5275
04:55:42,080 --> 04:55:45,840
South or around Mennonites and Amish actually know how stupid

5276
04:55:46,000 --> 04:55:47,799
this whole thing, this whole thing. A lot of people

5277
04:55:47,840 --> 04:55:50,119
who don't have that. Oh they're like bathed and they

5278
04:55:50,560 --> 04:55:53,880
don't do vaccines. Yeah, but like the essence of life

5279
04:55:53,919 --> 04:55:56,959
and knowing God is not do you have milk and butter?

5280
04:55:57,159 --> 04:56:00,279
And do you not take vaccines? Because the well, by

5281
04:56:00,319 --> 04:56:02,799
the way, the women are actually super unhealthy. They're all

5282
04:56:02,880 --> 04:56:06,040
like five hundred pounds, so they're not actually healthy because

5283
04:56:06,040 --> 04:56:08,439
they don't take back scenes. And by the way, they're

5284
04:56:08,479 --> 04:56:10,360
a crazy cult. They have their own mafia and all

5285
04:56:10,400 --> 04:56:13,479
their own nonsense and their own peedo stuff. So do

5286
04:56:13,639 --> 04:56:23,319
not be fooled by the appearance of piety amongst Amish. Bleak,

5287
04:56:23,400 --> 04:56:29,040
what's up? I don't know why you're thumbing down, boomer Mom.

5288
04:56:29,119 --> 04:56:31,119
It's a stupid cult. Like do you not know about

5289
04:56:31,159 --> 04:56:36,840
the Amish? You don't know they're a dumb cult, boomer mom, Jan,

5290
04:56:36,880 --> 04:56:38,319
I don't know why you're thumbing down. I'll bring you

5291
04:56:38,360 --> 04:56:39,959
on if you want. Bleak, get on, mute.

5292
04:56:39,959 --> 04:56:40,119
Speaker 2: Man.

5293
04:56:41,759 --> 04:56:43,400
Speaker 4: We haven't had a y mom tonight, so you know

5294
04:56:43,520 --> 04:56:46,759
why moms can come on and drunkenly tell me why

5295
04:56:46,799 --> 04:56:59,639
I'm wrong. Bleak, you have to unmute. Okay, whatever, you

5296
04:56:59,680 --> 04:57:01,680
don't have have to thumb down fifty times? Dude, what

5297
04:57:01,720 --> 04:57:02,080
do you want?

5298
04:57:05,799 --> 04:57:06,520
Speaker 2: Can anyone hear me?

5299
04:57:06,599 --> 04:57:06,799
Speaker 8: Hello?

5300
04:57:07,159 --> 04:57:07,360
Speaker 4: Yep?

5301
04:57:08,520 --> 04:57:08,680
Speaker 2: Hey?

5302
04:57:09,279 --> 04:57:09,639
Speaker 15: Do die?

5303
04:57:09,680 --> 04:57:11,400
Speaker 2: Or is this our Muslims allowed in here?

5304
04:57:12,159 --> 04:57:12,360
Speaker 4: Yeah?

5305
04:57:13,479 --> 04:57:13,840
Speaker 2: All right?

5306
04:57:14,319 --> 04:57:17,840
Speaker 35: I just have some questions. I think I save a

5307
04:57:17,880 --> 04:57:19,959
false prophecy in the Gospel of Matthew.

5308
04:57:19,959 --> 04:57:25,000
Speaker 2: Can you address it? What in Matthew Chapter twenty seven,

5309
04:57:25,560 --> 04:57:27,000
verse nine through time.

5310
04:57:38,400 --> 04:57:40,520
Speaker 4: If you could read it out loud please, I'm getting

5311
04:57:40,520 --> 04:57:46,319
it and pulling it up, no problem, Matthew. What'd you say?

5312
04:57:46,400 --> 04:57:46,959
Twenty seven?

5313
04:57:49,000 --> 04:57:50,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, first line through time.

5314
04:57:57,000 --> 04:57:59,639
Speaker 4: That's what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet. They took

5315
04:57:59,720 --> 04:58:03,639
thirty pieces of silver, the value which was priced, and

5316
04:58:03,759 --> 04:58:05,840
they gave it as the price of the potters field.

5317
04:58:05,880 --> 04:58:06,159
That one.

5318
04:58:07,799 --> 04:58:10,119
Speaker 35: Yes, I want to see where that's located in the

5319
04:58:10,159 --> 04:58:11,919
Gulf in the US or not the GOLs, but Germuth.

5320
04:58:12,319 --> 04:58:16,560
Speaker 4: In the Book of Jeremiah, it might be misattributed in

5321
04:58:16,759 --> 04:58:17,880
the masoretic texts.

5322
04:58:19,439 --> 04:58:21,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it must be. I mean it has to

5323
04:58:21,639 --> 04:58:24,639
be in the uh like you know, the Book of Jeremiah, right, not.

5324
04:58:24,799 --> 04:58:26,360
Speaker 4: If this is from the masoretic text.

5325
04:58:29,799 --> 04:58:59,720
Speaker 2: Okay, so where would it be from? M h.

5326
04:59:01,599 --> 04:59:08,080
Speaker 4: It's referring, I think, to Jeremiah's purchase of a field.

5327
04:59:09,799 --> 04:59:10,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

5328
04:59:10,119 --> 04:59:12,439
Speaker 35: Yeah, but the problem is when you go into that

5329
04:59:12,560 --> 04:59:15,040
passage you're going to, it doesn't mention it mentioned a

5330
04:59:15,040 --> 04:59:16,520
different amount of shuckles.

5331
04:59:18,639 --> 04:59:19,880
Speaker 2: Therefore it is not the same event.

5332
04:59:21,240 --> 04:59:24,680
Speaker 4: It's well, the second verse, the second section is the

5333
04:59:24,759 --> 04:59:29,159
Potters field. So is that what you're talking about?

5334
04:59:30,279 --> 04:59:32,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the first one I gave you? How many

5335
04:59:32,240 --> 04:59:33,680
shuckles did that talk about? Thirty?

5336
04:59:35,159 --> 04:59:36,919
Speaker 4: Yeah? But what I'm saying is this is probably a

5337
04:59:36,959 --> 04:59:39,479
difference between the subtuage and the masoretic text.

5338
04:59:39,319 --> 04:59:39,880
Speaker 2: Is what I'm saying.

5339
04:59:40,880 --> 04:59:42,799
Speaker 35: I mean the subtu in Mazaruta, can I get like

5340
04:59:42,919 --> 04:59:45,479
numbers like wrong? Can they contradict to numbers? It's kind

5341
04:59:45,520 --> 04:59:45,880
of crazy.

5342
04:59:47,479 --> 04:59:51,520
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, because it's too it's different translations in different orderings.

5343
04:59:51,520 --> 04:59:55,119
And we don't go by the maz We don't go

5344
04:59:55,279 --> 04:59:59,759
by that, so you we don't go Why do you

5345
04:59:59,840 --> 05:00:01,599
keep interrupted? Me, I said, we don't go by that.

5346
05:00:03,279 --> 05:00:04,959
Speaker 2: It's not a translation, it's a reception.

5347
05:00:06,279 --> 05:00:09,439
Speaker 4: No, the sebtusion is a translation. It's a Greek translation.

5348
05:00:10,200 --> 05:00:12,319
Speaker 35: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, it's a Greek translation,

5349
05:00:12,400 --> 05:00:16,439
but it's known as a reception okay of the So,

5350
05:00:17,479 --> 05:00:22,200
Jay Dyer, why name regardless? I mean, what do you

5351
05:00:22,279 --> 05:00:22,680
want to call you?

5352
05:00:23,880 --> 05:00:24,040
Speaker 15: Why?

5353
05:00:24,279 --> 05:00:26,000
Speaker 4: It's just weird to repeat my name.

5354
05:00:27,080 --> 05:00:28,159
Speaker 2: No, I'm not repeating your name.

5355
05:00:28,200 --> 05:00:30,279
Speaker 4: I'm calling you are repeating my name. He keeps saying

5356
05:00:30,319 --> 05:00:30,959
my full name.

5357
05:00:32,159 --> 05:00:35,000
Speaker 2: Okay, j Should I call you Jay? Call you Ja?

5358
05:00:35,119 --> 05:00:35,479
Speaker 58: No problem?

5359
05:00:35,520 --> 05:00:35,959
Speaker 2: Okay, Jay.

5360
05:00:36,439 --> 05:00:39,400
Speaker 35: So we read in the Gospel, it's not the Gospel

5361
05:00:39,479 --> 05:00:41,200
the Book of Jeremiah or try.

5362
05:00:41,240 --> 05:00:45,319
Speaker 4: So, what I'm saying is that the second phrase is

5363
05:00:45,360 --> 05:00:49,240
a reference the potter's field. That's Zachariah. Accue me. The

5364
05:00:49,639 --> 05:00:53,400
the potter's field, which is the second reference in verse ten,

5365
05:00:54,319 --> 05:00:58,520
that's from Jeremiah. But the first reference is from Zechariah.

5366
05:00:58,599 --> 05:01:01,200
And so he's just including being both of those references

5367
05:01:01,319 --> 05:01:07,240
under Jeremiah. So the second reference, it says where it says.

5368
05:01:07,040 --> 05:01:10,000
Speaker 35: To be Jeremiah, because Jeremiah is a different amount of.

5369
05:01:10,479 --> 05:01:12,560
Speaker 4: Well, he can say Jeremiah the prophet and then he

5370
05:01:12,599 --> 05:01:17,040
can include both verses as if the two comment on

5371
05:01:17,240 --> 05:01:19,759
what Jeremiah is talking about. So it's not wrong to

5372
05:01:19,840 --> 05:01:22,000
say Jeremiah if it's such a quote from Jeremiah and

5373
05:01:22,119 --> 05:01:25,880
Zachariah to class them both under just saying Jeremiah, because

5374
05:01:25,880 --> 05:01:26,720
this is because the the.

5375
05:01:28,479 --> 05:01:29,799
Speaker 2: So can you read the Jeremiah verse?

5376
05:01:31,680 --> 05:01:34,799
Speaker 4: It's thirty nine six to nine about the purchasing of

5377
05:01:34,880 --> 05:01:35,240
the field.

5378
05:01:35,439 --> 05:01:40,479
Speaker 2: Can you read the verse? Can you read the can you? Yeah?

5379
05:01:40,520 --> 05:01:41,040
Speaker 4: I'm looking for it?

5380
05:01:41,119 --> 05:01:41,319
Speaker 8: Hold on?

5381
05:01:44,720 --> 05:01:46,119
Speaker 2: Are you lugging? I think he's lugging?

5382
05:01:49,240 --> 05:01:53,080
Speaker 4: It's it's it's where Jeremiah talks about purchasing the Potters field,

5383
05:01:54,080 --> 05:01:55,799
the purchase jugging.

5384
05:01:55,919 --> 05:01:56,560
Speaker 2: Is it me lugging?

5385
05:01:56,639 --> 05:01:56,959
Speaker 44: Or is it you?

5386
05:02:08,880 --> 05:02:09,639
Speaker 2: Hello? Can you hear me?

5387
05:02:09,959 --> 05:02:12,159
Speaker 4: Hold on? Yes?

5388
05:02:12,200 --> 05:02:12,479
Speaker 8: Hold on?

5389
05:02:12,799 --> 05:02:17,279
Speaker 2: Can anyone hear me? Am I audible? Hello?

5390
05:02:17,720 --> 05:02:17,919
Speaker 4: Yes?

5391
05:02:20,799 --> 05:02:21,759
Speaker 2: Am I audible? Hello?

5392
05:02:23,000 --> 05:02:24,040
Speaker 4: Yes? You're audible?

5393
05:02:25,720 --> 05:02:25,959
Speaker 7: Hello?

5394
05:02:26,240 --> 05:02:35,159
Speaker 2: Am I audible? Can anyone hear me? What hell is this? Hello? Okay?

5395
05:02:35,200 --> 05:02:37,639
You can hear me? Can you hear me?

5396
05:02:37,880 --> 05:02:38,080
Speaker 8: Yes?

5397
05:02:43,000 --> 05:02:44,639
Speaker 2: And someone put the thumbs up if they can hear me.

5398
05:02:45,639 --> 05:02:49,639
Speaker 4: It's because there's a difference between the numbering in Jeremiah

5399
05:02:49,799 --> 05:03:00,840
in the Mazat text versus a septuagent. So Jeremiah the prophet,

5400
05:03:00,919 --> 05:03:02,880
they will they took the thirty pieces of silver, and

5401
05:03:02,919 --> 05:03:04,560
the valued him who was priced, and they gave it

5402
05:03:04,599 --> 05:03:07,400
to the children of Israel, and they gave him the

5403
05:03:07,520 --> 05:03:10,680
potter's field, as the Lord directed me. So that is

5404
05:03:10,759 --> 05:03:14,880
a citation from Jeremiah. The first part is a citation

5405
05:03:15,000 --> 05:03:18,119
from Zachariah. So it's not false to say that it's

5406
05:03:18,319 --> 05:03:25,319
from Jeremiah when it's classing together the events and explaining them.

5407
05:03:26,159 --> 05:03:29,959
The potters field from Jeremiah thirty six or give me

5408
05:03:30,040 --> 05:03:34,279
thirty nine, when he buys the field, it's the Zachariah

5409
05:03:34,360 --> 05:03:42,200
text that mentions the payment. So it's Zechariah. Somebody mentioned it.

5410
05:03:42,279 --> 05:03:43,119
What is it Zecharia?

5411
05:03:43,159 --> 05:03:43,200
Speaker 10: What?

5412
05:03:55,520 --> 05:04:00,799
Speaker 4: Yes, it's a composite prophecy. It's combining two season saying

5413
05:04:00,840 --> 05:04:03,240
that when Jeremiah was talking about the purchase of a field,

5414
05:04:03,959 --> 05:04:07,119
that's a partial fulfillment of the death of Judas. The

5415
05:04:07,240 --> 05:04:10,759
other fulfillment is the mention in Zachariah.

5416
05:04:12,759 --> 05:04:13,200
Speaker 65: Of the.

5417
05:04:15,040 --> 05:04:26,040
Speaker 4: Thirty pieces of silver. Yeah, so Zachariah eleven twelve to thirteen,

5418
05:04:27,240 --> 05:04:29,759
thirty pieces of silver, that's the first part of the

5419
05:04:29,880 --> 05:04:42,959
verse that's quoted. I'm getting tired. My mind is mush.

5420
05:04:44,159 --> 05:04:52,240
But it's right here. Thirty pieces of silver that's from

5421
05:04:52,439 --> 05:04:57,439
Zachariah that we just read and gave them. For the

5422
05:04:57,520 --> 05:05:01,159
potters Field, as the Lord directed me, is from Jeremiah.

5423
05:05:01,560 --> 05:05:05,119
So he's just combining two prophecies and saying Jeremiah. So

5424
05:05:05,159 --> 05:05:09,439
it's not false. But I'm trying to find that which

5425
05:05:09,479 --> 05:05:11,840
section of Jeremiah that is. I just read it. But again,

5426
05:05:11,959 --> 05:05:15,959
the reason that I'm having getting confused is because in

5427
05:05:16,040 --> 05:05:28,360
the septuagen the numbering of Jeremiah is different. So it's

5428
05:05:28,439 --> 05:05:30,919
wherever Jeremiah talks about the potters Field, and I just

5429
05:05:30,959 --> 05:05:32,479
read it. I just don't remember which verse it is.

5430
05:05:35,319 --> 05:05:42,919
Here it is Jeremiah Potterfield eighteen to twenty one, is okay.

5431
05:05:43,000 --> 05:05:46,479
So he's summarizing the sections of Jeremiah where Jeremiah purchases

5432
05:05:46,560 --> 05:05:49,319
this field, and he's saying that is in part of

5433
05:05:49,400 --> 05:05:55,279
fulfillment of the field, where it's a partial prediction of

5434
05:05:55,360 --> 05:05:57,639
Judas is what I'm trying to say. So it's eighteen

5435
05:05:57,680 --> 05:06:09,639
to twenty one. Where is it the Jeremiah purchases the field?

5436
05:06:09,759 --> 05:06:10,159
Speaker 2: Is that not it?

5437
05:06:32,319 --> 05:06:36,479
Speaker 4: Yeah? Okay? The reference is Zecharai's words it's connected to

5438
05:06:36,599 --> 05:06:39,560
Jeremia's ministry because Jeremiah's name was on the scroll. In

5439
05:06:39,639 --> 05:06:41,959
those days, books didn't exist, and so it was common

5440
05:06:42,040 --> 05:06:46,080
for shorter writings to be attached to longer, more major writings.

5441
05:06:46,439 --> 05:06:48,200
That way, you didn't have a tiny scroll for a

5442
05:06:48,240 --> 05:06:52,479
short writing like Jonah or Obadiah. Truthfully, we don't often

5443
05:06:52,520 --> 05:06:55,520
know today when we read which had multiple contributors, and

5444
05:06:55,599 --> 05:06:58,080
so we often referenced the name on the cover. So

5445
05:06:58,200 --> 05:07:00,680
the passage is a combination of two reference is namely

5446
05:07:01,200 --> 05:07:05,840
both namely quotations from both Jeremiah, who had experience buying

5447
05:07:05,880 --> 05:07:08,919
the potter's field on two different occasions Potters and Pottery

5448
05:07:09,000 --> 05:07:12,439
Jeremiah eighteen and nineteen, and the quotation from Zachariah eleven,

5449
05:07:12,840 --> 05:07:15,919
which is the was what the first part of the verse.

5450
05:07:18,400 --> 05:07:20,759
But I was just reading in Jeremiah where he's talking

5451
05:07:20,799 --> 05:07:27,919
about purchasing something. Doesn't it say something like the Lord

5452
05:07:28,119 --> 05:07:30,000
instruct me to go buy a field. I'm trying to

5453
05:07:30,000 --> 05:07:36,159
remember I've just read this, And the only reason it's

5454
05:07:36,200 --> 05:07:38,360
confusing is because, as I was saying at the beginning

5455
05:07:38,360 --> 05:07:44,159
of the stream, the references in the Orthodox Study Bible,

5456
05:07:44,319 --> 05:07:47,319
the chapters are all different in Jeremiah. So it takes

5457
05:07:47,360 --> 05:08:13,400
forever to find the reference to the field. There it

5458
05:08:13,560 --> 05:08:17,880
is go to the potter's house. I'll give you a message.

5459
05:08:17,959 --> 05:08:21,520
Or is that just eighteen eleven? There it is thirty

5460
05:08:21,560 --> 05:08:23,959
two six to nine buying the field. That's what I

5461
05:08:24,040 --> 05:08:30,319
was trying to find. But it's different. It's not thirty

5462
05:08:30,319 --> 05:08:32,200
two six to nine in the Orthodox study. By Well,

5463
05:08:32,200 --> 05:08:39,959
that's why I was confusing. So thirty two sixty nine

5464
05:08:52,400 --> 05:08:54,560
there it is. Jeremiah said, the word of the Lord

5465
05:08:54,599 --> 05:08:58,880
came to me, son of Hanahmel, your uncle will come

5466
05:08:58,959 --> 05:09:03,759
to you saying the field and Anathoth. So that's where

5467
05:09:03,880 --> 05:09:08,040
Jeremiah is told to go buy this field. So all

5468
05:09:08,119 --> 05:09:10,720
of this, so all of this for the last like

5469
05:09:10,919 --> 05:09:15,479
thirty minutes, was just this bunch of nonsense. So because

5470
05:09:16,479 --> 05:09:21,240
ancient scrolls would write one letter or one name at

5471
05:09:21,279 --> 05:09:24,680
the top, and you combine the prophecy together and say

5472
05:09:24,759 --> 05:09:28,319
that it's the prophecy of Jeremiah. So you're just linking

5473
05:09:28,400 --> 05:09:31,360
what Zechai says to half of the verse, which is Jeremiah.

5474
05:09:31,400 --> 05:09:35,159
So it's a big nothing. Bleak. Do you want to

5475
05:09:35,200 --> 05:10:05,560
try again? Bleak? I'm you, Hm, why do you keep

5476
05:10:05,599 --> 05:10:07,200
going if you don't want to umute ude, don't get it.

5477
05:10:10,400 --> 05:10:38,240
Southern reconciliation. Helloh, you don't have your MIC's turn your

5478
05:10:38,279 --> 05:10:45,799
permissions turned on because it won't add you. Jace the

5479
05:10:45,880 --> 05:10:48,200
last one. I don't see anybody else. Here's another. It's like,

5480
05:10:48,360 --> 05:10:50,200
right when I think nobody else is coming, somebody else

5481
05:10:50,200 --> 05:10:50,560
pops in.

5482
05:10:51,560 --> 05:10:58,240
Speaker 2: I'm mute, Heydri, can you hear me? A big fan

5483
05:10:58,319 --> 05:11:00,159
of yours? And Sam's think you.

5484
05:11:01,080 --> 05:11:05,520
Speaker 83: I kind of had a I thought about Orthodox evangelism.

5485
05:11:05,880 --> 05:11:08,919
I know there's a lot of like Protestants who go

5486
05:11:09,000 --> 05:11:11,439
out in the streets and kind of say like repent

5487
05:11:11,599 --> 05:11:12,000
or dies.

5488
05:11:12,159 --> 05:11:13,040
Speaker 64: So this is right.

5489
05:11:13,639 --> 05:11:16,360
Speaker 4: I appreciate that, but it's it's it's debate days, so

5490
05:11:16,400 --> 05:11:18,919
we're not we're doing open form if you have debate

5491
05:11:19,159 --> 05:11:21,880
or challenge or opposition burn what's up?

5492
05:11:33,240 --> 05:11:33,479
Speaker 2: Hello?

5493
05:11:33,919 --> 05:11:38,959
Speaker 27: Yeah, I just was wondering, do you have any idea

5494
05:11:39,000 --> 05:11:42,080
what that guy's talking about with the fruitful, fruitful Bible.

5495
05:11:42,279 --> 05:11:44,599
This is Jake Bernitz, by the way, that I sent

5496
05:11:44,680 --> 05:11:47,759
a super trap but you didn't address it, but it

5497
05:11:47,880 --> 05:11:51,040
was on tag. But that guy keeps talking about we

5498
05:11:51,200 --> 05:11:53,119
use only the most fruitful Bible.

5499
05:11:53,159 --> 05:11:55,000
Speaker 2: I don't know what kind of argument that it is.

5500
05:11:56,279 --> 05:11:58,360
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, okay, let me scroll down here. I missed

5501
05:11:58,400 --> 05:12:02,520
a couple of super chats here, Casey Cardenas five dollars.

5502
05:12:02,919 --> 05:12:04,840
I'm sorry about that earlier question. I meant to say,

5503
05:12:04,880 --> 05:12:09,959
as a hypothetical disagreement about the cannonation of Isaac Isaac

5504
05:12:10,000 --> 05:12:13,520
the Syrian. Now he was in communion with the church

5505
05:12:13,880 --> 05:12:16,479
is our view, so he wasn't out of communion. Jake

5506
05:12:16,520 --> 05:12:19,959
Bernards ten dollars. What are some books on tag specific

5507
05:12:20,040 --> 05:12:21,279
to Orthodoxy? There aren't any?

5508
05:12:23,479 --> 05:12:24,240
Speaker 2: Oh, there aren't.

5509
05:12:24,520 --> 05:12:27,880
Speaker 27: Oh, okay, well, because you make the argument in a

5510
05:12:28,000 --> 05:12:30,639
very specific way, so I'm really trying to understand it

5511
05:12:30,959 --> 05:12:33,080
so I can like properly portray.

5512
05:12:32,840 --> 05:12:36,200
Speaker 4: It, right people, Yeah, there's not one. Really, It's just

5513
05:12:36,319 --> 05:12:38,680
kind of stuff that Father Deacon and Ias and I

5514
05:12:38,759 --> 05:12:40,479
have been arguing. Now, he's got a lot of papers

5515
05:12:40,479 --> 05:12:42,479
in the discord that you could look to that kind

5516
05:12:42,520 --> 05:12:43,279
of go in that direction.

5517
05:12:44,200 --> 05:12:47,279
Speaker 27: Okay, Well, I was also wondering, what are some like

5518
05:12:47,599 --> 05:12:52,319
books for like underlying philosophical topics that I need to

5519
05:12:52,439 --> 05:12:54,799
know for that specific argument.

5520
05:12:55,000 --> 05:12:58,040
Speaker 4: I would say, look up Bonson's book Always Ready. You

5521
05:12:58,119 --> 05:13:00,479
could look up an argument or a book like a

5522
05:13:01,159 --> 05:13:03,880
Ultimate Proof by doctor Jason Lyle. Those are good ones.

5523
05:13:09,959 --> 05:13:14,639
So we're doing people who disagree tonight. It looks like

5524
05:13:14,720 --> 05:13:23,040
we're about about out of people, that we're about out

5525
05:13:23,080 --> 05:13:30,919
of options here for disagreeers. So you only can come

5526
05:13:30,959 --> 05:13:33,319
on if you disagree. So please don't come on here

5527
05:13:33,360 --> 05:13:35,759
and ask me a bunch of orthodox fake questions.

5528
05:13:37,279 --> 05:13:37,319
Speaker 2: What.

5529
05:13:42,759 --> 05:13:47,439
Speaker 33: Yeah, I was calling to disagree about tact But that's

5530
05:13:47,479 --> 05:13:53,759
why I kip Okay, So one of the claims that

5531
05:13:53,799 --> 05:13:56,759
you made about classical theism, I'm just trying to explain

5532
05:13:56,840 --> 05:14:00,599
why I have a disagreement classical theism is you can

5533
05:14:01,840 --> 05:14:04,720
pause it other gods. It doesn't lead to just the

5534
05:14:04,840 --> 05:14:06,639
Orthodox god exception.

5535
05:14:06,560 --> 05:14:11,880
Speaker 4: Right, That would be one critique of it. Yeah, it's

5536
05:14:12,000 --> 05:14:14,799
it's not just I mean, it's rather that there's a

5537
05:14:14,919 --> 05:14:17,479
fallacy involved, like the quantifier shift fallacy.

5538
05:14:19,279 --> 05:14:19,439
Speaker 2: Right.

5539
05:14:19,560 --> 05:14:23,759
Speaker 33: So my disagreement on tag was that, like, couldn't you

5540
05:14:23,840 --> 05:14:25,560
make the same exactly? I mean, I think you can

5541
05:14:25,720 --> 05:14:28,119
make the same, So I'll put it that way. I

5542
05:14:28,200 --> 05:14:33,599
think the fact that Greg Bohnson until they're the ones

5543
05:14:33,599 --> 05:14:34,279
who first.

5544
05:14:34,919 --> 05:14:38,560
Speaker 4: Well, that's that's that's a no, that's the genetic fallacy.

5545
05:14:38,639 --> 05:14:40,840
The fact that people make that argument has nothing to

5546
05:14:40,919 --> 05:14:43,000
do with like the source of an argument, not to

5547
05:14:43,040 --> 05:14:45,240
do with whether it's true or false. So we refine

5548
05:14:45,279 --> 05:14:48,319
that argument to say it's better fitted to the orthodox perspective.

5549
05:14:48,639 --> 05:14:56,400
So you're just committing a genetic fallacy. I mean, as

5550
05:14:56,439 --> 05:14:59,959
a classical theist, you commit genetic fallacies all the time.

5551
05:15:00,279 --> 05:15:06,520
If you think that you can just go to Aristotle's God, right,

5552
05:15:08,759 --> 05:15:09,680
could I argue that it?

5553
05:15:09,799 --> 05:15:09,919
Speaker 1: Well?

5554
05:15:10,639 --> 05:15:12,919
Speaker 4: Can I argue what if I said this? Aristotle is

5555
05:15:12,919 --> 05:15:16,840
a pagan, So your classical theist arguments are false. It's

5556
05:15:16,880 --> 05:15:20,479
a fallacy. Aristotle is the source of this, has nothing

5557
05:15:20,520 --> 05:15:21,560
to do with others for false.

5558
05:15:23,040 --> 05:15:25,720
Speaker 33: Okay, I just thought that your critique of classical theism

5559
05:15:25,720 --> 05:15:28,360
as an argument is that it can be used for

5560
05:15:29,680 --> 05:15:30,240
other guys.

5561
05:15:30,279 --> 05:15:31,279
Speaker 2: Is that not your argument?

5562
05:15:32,799 --> 05:15:36,720
Speaker 4: The argument is that it doesn't specify who or what

5563
05:15:36,919 --> 05:15:39,560
it's talking about, and so it's a deficient argument. And

5564
05:15:39,680 --> 05:15:43,040
you're confusing that with the fact that somebody who's wrong

5565
05:15:43,319 --> 05:15:46,279
or has a heterodox position is using a transcendental argument.

5566
05:15:46,680 --> 05:15:49,080
That's two different things. You don't see that I'm saying.

5567
05:15:49,959 --> 05:15:51,639
Speaker 33: Okay, I get I do get what you're saying, but

5568
05:15:51,759 --> 05:15:53,919
what I Okay, so you can tell me, I'm wrong.

5569
05:15:54,040 --> 05:15:56,360
But what I'm saying is the fact that these two

5570
05:15:56,560 --> 05:16:02,240
these two arguments can be used for any paradigm is

5571
05:16:02,360 --> 05:16:03,279
kind of what defeats it.

5572
05:16:03,400 --> 05:16:05,119
Speaker 2: That's what I'm That's what I'm getting at. I don't

5573
05:16:05,119 --> 05:16:05,680
know if it.

5574
05:16:05,680 --> 05:16:09,200
Speaker 4: Can't be used for any paradigm, that that's the point.

5575
05:16:10,720 --> 05:16:14,759
Speaker 33: You're saying, the transcendental argument cannot be used validly.

5576
05:16:14,400 --> 05:16:19,040
Speaker 2: For other paradigms. Correct, Okay, yeah, I guess that's where

5577
05:16:19,080 --> 05:16:19,680
I disagree.

5578
05:16:21,080 --> 05:16:23,360
Speaker 4: Okay, how can it be used for other paradigms?

5579
05:16:25,560 --> 05:16:28,639
Speaker 33: Well, I mean, well, okay, so then that's why I

5580
05:16:28,680 --> 05:16:31,080
would say, Like if Greg Bahnson formulated.

5581
05:16:30,720 --> 05:16:34,400
Speaker 4: I just answered that. So you don't You don't understand.

5582
05:16:34,759 --> 05:16:39,200
Speaker 2: You asked me to demonstrate the Okay, the.

5583
05:16:39,279 --> 05:16:42,720
Speaker 4: Fact that a person who's wrong uses an argument does

5584
05:16:42,799 --> 05:16:45,279
not mean that the argument can therefore be used by

5585
05:16:45,319 --> 05:16:47,319
any position. You don't see the difference between that.

5586
05:16:48,000 --> 05:16:50,119
Speaker 33: I understand that, I understand it.

5587
05:16:50,200 --> 05:16:51,799
Speaker 4: But then then you restate the position.

5588
05:16:54,919 --> 05:16:57,159
Speaker 33: But then isn't it on you to demonstrate how he's

5589
05:16:57,240 --> 05:16:58,159
using it invalidly?

5590
05:16:58,639 --> 05:17:00,360
Speaker 4: Absolutely? I do it all the time.

5591
05:17:03,479 --> 05:17:05,520
Speaker 33: Okay, But if you but then you appeal to the

5592
05:17:05,759 --> 05:17:11,360
orthodox paradigm. But that's Is that refuting the argument like

5593
05:17:11,880 --> 05:17:14,840
on philosophical grounds or is that just disagreeing.

5594
05:17:14,319 --> 05:17:18,000
Speaker 4: With Yeah, the argument is that Greg Bnsen doesn't have

5595
05:17:18,080 --> 05:17:22,439
a specific, correct trinitarian doctrine to ground the transcendental argument,

5596
05:17:22,479 --> 05:17:24,279
and so when he appeals to things like it answering

5597
05:17:24,319 --> 05:17:26,400
the one of the many, it doesn't work because his

5598
05:17:26,520 --> 05:17:30,439
trinitary theology is bogus. So a correct trinity theology solves

5599
05:17:30,479 --> 05:17:31,000
that problem.

5600
05:17:33,560 --> 05:17:35,840
Speaker 33: So you don't see you don't see that as tangential

5601
05:17:35,959 --> 05:17:38,639
to the transcendental argument.

5602
05:17:38,759 --> 05:17:40,759
Speaker 4: I guess how would it be tangential when all this

5603
05:17:40,880 --> 05:17:43,400
time I've been arguing that the orthodox trinity is the

5604
05:17:43,439 --> 05:17:44,319
transcendental argument.

5605
05:17:53,080 --> 05:17:56,240
Speaker 33: I see that as in my mind they are different categories.

5606
05:17:56,279 --> 05:17:58,159
Speaker 4: But okay, I you know, I mean, have you not

5607
05:17:58,279 --> 05:17:59,560
listened to how I've been arguing it.

5608
05:18:00,279 --> 05:18:01,720
Speaker 33: Of course I have, Yes, I have.

5609
05:18:02,200 --> 05:18:04,439
Speaker 4: Well, then you just didn't get it because I've said

5610
05:18:04,520 --> 05:18:06,520
for how many years now? Do you have to have

5611
05:18:06,639 --> 05:18:08,360
a specific trinitarian God?

5612
05:18:09,439 --> 05:18:10,279
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm just.

5613
05:18:10,439 --> 05:18:12,479
Speaker 33: I'm trying to say that in my mind, there's a

5614
05:18:12,520 --> 05:18:18,279
distinction between the private revelation and the philosophical.

5615
05:18:17,720 --> 05:18:20,360
Speaker 4: Argument, Like revelation, what are you talking about?

5616
05:18:21,319 --> 05:18:24,560
Speaker 33: Okay, Well, does Greg Bonson not have a different private

5617
05:18:24,639 --> 05:18:26,119
revelation than someone who's.

5618
05:18:26,240 --> 05:18:28,080
Speaker 4: What are you talking about private revelation? I don't know

5619
05:18:28,119 --> 05:18:32,720
what that means, no idea, what you're talking about? What's

5620
05:18:32,720 --> 05:18:34,119
a private revelation is?

5621
05:18:34,200 --> 05:18:34,240
Speaker 2: Like?

5622
05:18:34,319 --> 05:18:36,080
Speaker 4: What offense? What are you talking about?

5623
05:18:36,159 --> 05:18:39,840
Speaker 33: I'll explain, No, revelation doesn't Isn't that part of any

5624
05:18:40,119 --> 05:18:43,439
anyone's conversion? Like I'm not trying to say anything crazy here, genuinely,

5625
05:18:43,880 --> 05:18:47,759
I'm saying, revelation is a part of anybody who professes

5626
05:18:47,919 --> 05:18:51,560
like Orthodox Christianity, Catholic Christianity, Protestant Christianity, or they.

5627
05:18:51,479 --> 05:18:54,840
Speaker 4: Have different doctrines of revelation, but that's not private revelation.

5628
05:18:56,000 --> 05:18:56,279
Speaker 2: Okay.

5629
05:18:56,360 --> 05:18:58,840
Speaker 33: So okay, so throughout the word private.

5630
05:18:58,560 --> 05:18:59,319
Speaker 2: Then just revelation.

5631
05:18:59,479 --> 05:19:02,040
Speaker 4: Okay, Okay, So I'm.

5632
05:19:01,919 --> 05:19:04,840
Speaker 33: Saying I just said private because it's different for everybody,

5633
05:19:04,919 --> 05:19:06,279
So like Greg Boson or whatever.

5634
05:19:06,840 --> 05:19:08,720
Speaker 4: So what I'm s how can it be different for everybody?

5635
05:19:10,400 --> 05:19:13,279
Speaker 33: It's different, meaning if you have a different paradigm, it's different.

5636
05:19:13,400 --> 05:19:15,840
So you, as an Orthodox Christian have a different revelation

5637
05:19:16,000 --> 05:19:18,319
than Greg Bonnson does if he's a Baptist or if

5638
05:19:18,319 --> 05:19:21,919
he's a Protestant, and your orthodox right, Well, the factors

5639
05:19:21,919 --> 05:19:23,119
into the transcendental argument.

5640
05:19:23,119 --> 05:19:26,439
Speaker 4: Okay, so you're misunderstanding. Look, it's not a different revelation.

5641
05:19:26,560 --> 05:19:31,000
There's only one revelation, but people have misappropriations and misunderstandings

5642
05:19:31,040 --> 05:19:35,919
of that one revelation. There's not different revelations. There's only

5643
05:19:36,040 --> 05:19:39,319
one divine revelation, which is the depositive faith. And the

5644
05:19:39,400 --> 05:19:42,200
fact that people get things wrong doesn't mean there's different revelations.

5645
05:19:42,240 --> 05:19:43,360
That means they're making mistakes.

5646
05:19:45,400 --> 05:19:49,639
Speaker 33: Okay, But okay, so but people claim to be Okay, well,

5647
05:19:49,799 --> 05:19:53,319
people claim divine revelations, and so you would say they're

5648
05:19:53,400 --> 05:19:54,639
just wrong when they claim that.

5649
05:19:54,799 --> 05:19:58,439
Speaker 4: Right, Well, everybody has to say somebody's right and somebody's wrong,

5650
05:19:58,520 --> 05:19:59,520
So everybody has that view.

5651
05:19:59,639 --> 05:20:03,000
Speaker 33: So but I'm talking specifically about revelation. That's that's why

5652
05:20:03,119 --> 05:20:04,240
it's it's kind of important.

5653
05:20:05,479 --> 05:20:08,959
Speaker 4: Every position that's Catholic, Orthodox Protestant has to say that

5654
05:20:09,040 --> 05:20:13,919
there's some specific finality, defined body of what's divine revelation

5655
05:20:14,080 --> 05:20:16,639
and that the other positions are incorrect. It doesn't mean

5656
05:20:16,639 --> 05:20:22,279
there's different revelations, but.

5657
05:20:22,400 --> 05:20:24,400
Speaker 33: The claims are different. That's all I'm trying to say.

5658
05:20:24,479 --> 05:20:28,360
Speaker 2: The different So that just means that just means.

5659
05:20:29,439 --> 05:20:30,599
Speaker 4: That just means somebody is wrong.

5660
05:20:32,880 --> 05:20:35,520
Speaker 33: But when it's when we're talking about revelation, it's not

5661
05:20:35,639 --> 05:20:38,279
like a logical question or it's not like it's just

5662
05:20:38,520 --> 05:20:41,880
something that's revealed, right, Like, how do you argue.

5663
05:20:41,720 --> 05:20:42,479
Speaker 2: That that's the whole?

5664
05:20:42,840 --> 05:20:45,639
Speaker 4: No, that's so you've been disagree with it, so you

5665
05:20:45,720 --> 05:20:48,080
have no idea what so you don't understand these positions,

5666
05:20:48,119 --> 05:20:51,080
so you're confused. So No, the fact that something's the

5667
05:20:51,159 --> 05:20:53,759
fact that something's revealed does not mean that it's illogical

5668
05:20:53,840 --> 05:20:55,799
or that it doesn't relate to logic, and not even

5669
05:20:55,799 --> 05:20:57,000
the Roman Catholics of that position.

5670
05:20:57,680 --> 05:21:01,840
Speaker 33: Wait, I you're saying that, I'm saying it's it's necessarily illogical.

5671
05:21:01,959 --> 05:21:03,200
If someone is saying I'm not.

5672
05:21:03,279 --> 05:21:06,080
Speaker 4: Saying that, you said, how does it even relate to logic?

5673
05:21:06,319 --> 05:21:08,799
Of course logic is grounded in revelation. That's our perer,

5674
05:21:08,880 --> 05:21:09,479
that's our position.

5675
05:21:12,200 --> 05:21:12,479
Speaker 2: Okay.

5676
05:21:12,560 --> 05:21:14,639
Speaker 33: But and so all I'm saying is that on a

5677
05:21:14,720 --> 05:21:19,080
transcendental argument from my perspective, everybody claims that, So there's

5678
05:21:19,119 --> 05:21:20,000
no way to DeLine in.

5679
05:21:20,119 --> 05:21:23,520
Speaker 4: You're confusing claiming something with it being the case. Those

5680
05:21:23,560 --> 05:21:25,439
are two different things. The fact that they claim it

5681
05:21:25,520 --> 05:21:26,840
is irrelevant. You don't understand that.

5682
05:21:27,720 --> 05:21:29,639
Speaker 33: Okay, So you're saying the fact that they claim it

5683
05:21:29,680 --> 05:21:32,439
doesn't make it true. Right, So I understand that you're

5684
05:21:32,639 --> 05:21:33,919
repeating that. I understand that.

5685
05:21:34,360 --> 05:21:36,799
Speaker 4: But then you go back to arguing like that doesn't

5686
05:21:36,840 --> 05:21:38,599
the case and I didn't say that, So you're.

5687
05:21:38,479 --> 05:21:41,639
Speaker 33: Well, all I'm saying is that they exist different these

5688
05:21:41,720 --> 05:21:44,680
different claims exist, and that there's no way to do

5689
05:21:44,880 --> 05:21:49,319
there's no The step after that is to argue, well,

5690
05:21:49,400 --> 05:21:50,080
my revelation.

5691
05:21:50,200 --> 05:21:51,240
Speaker 2: That's why I brought up revelation.

5692
05:21:51,560 --> 05:21:54,080
Speaker 4: This is the point where you're misunderstanding is that we're

5693
05:21:54,119 --> 05:21:57,639
not stuck in that position. You can use logic and

5694
05:21:57,720 --> 05:22:00,560
reasoning to fetter out which position is fall which one

5695
05:22:00,639 --> 05:22:04,639
is true. For example, rag Boson's trinitarian theology does not

5696
05:22:04,840 --> 05:22:07,279
work to do the grounding that our position does.

5697
05:22:07,520 --> 05:22:10,240
Speaker 2: That's the point, okay, But.

5698
05:22:10,319 --> 05:22:13,000
Speaker 33: You don't you don't see how this is just okay,

5699
05:22:13,040 --> 05:22:15,200
all right? When we're when you argue on that level,

5700
05:22:15,479 --> 05:22:17,200
there's no way to distinguish.

5701
05:22:17,279 --> 05:22:19,119
Speaker 4: I mean, of course there is. What do you mean,

5702
05:22:19,240 --> 05:22:21,919
how else would we argue how else would we argue

5703
05:22:21,959 --> 05:22:24,840
against how else would we argue against a Muslim? If

5704
05:22:24,880 --> 05:22:27,360
you can't distinguish on the trinitarian level, which ones which

5705
05:22:27,400 --> 05:22:28,040
true and falls.

5706
05:22:28,759 --> 05:22:30,720
Speaker 33: I didn't see on the trinitaryarian level.

5707
05:22:31,040 --> 05:22:32,959
Speaker 4: I just made the argument on the trinitarian level.

5708
05:22:33,000 --> 05:22:33,400
Speaker 15: What do you mean?

5709
05:22:33,680 --> 05:22:36,319
Speaker 2: Fine? Okay, I thought you were responding to what I said. Okay,

5710
05:22:36,400 --> 05:22:39,560
so I was okay, all right, all right, I'm.

5711
05:22:39,400 --> 05:22:40,040
Speaker 33: Willing to let it go.

5712
05:22:40,360 --> 05:22:41,479
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is helping you.

5713
05:22:41,680 --> 05:22:42,479
Speaker 33: It really isn't.

5714
05:22:42,840 --> 05:22:45,040
Speaker 4: It's helping me, Like I think you're the one that

5715
05:22:45,119 --> 05:22:46,680
isn't helping man. I'm just trying to be mean.

5716
05:22:46,799 --> 05:22:48,520
Speaker 33: No, I agree, I'm not trying to be I'm just

5717
05:22:48,599 --> 05:22:50,240
trying not to frustrate anything.

5718
05:22:50,319 --> 05:22:52,200
Speaker 2: But it really is a disagreement. So that's why.

5719
05:22:52,319 --> 05:22:56,040
Speaker 4: But it's a disagreement because you don't you don't understand that.

5720
05:22:56,240 --> 05:22:58,959
It's like you think that you can't argue paradigms. Is

5721
05:22:59,000 --> 05:22:59,599
that what you think?

5722
05:23:00,360 --> 05:23:01,520
Speaker 2: No, I don't think that.

5723
05:23:01,799 --> 05:23:06,759
Speaker 33: I think that the transcendental argument demonstrates how everybody has

5724
05:23:06,840 --> 05:23:08,560
a paradigm. But I think that's all it does.

5725
05:23:08,720 --> 05:23:12,080
Speaker 4: No, that's that's what you're misunderstanding because you haven't listened

5726
05:23:12,119 --> 05:23:14,040
to me. You said you did. I've argued for years

5727
05:23:14,080 --> 05:23:17,200
now that it requires a specific type of God in metaphysic.

5728
05:23:17,439 --> 05:23:21,400
Don't you understand that Christianity presents a specific trinitarian metaphysic.

5729
05:23:21,439 --> 05:23:24,360
And when I say that, you said Christianity. Yes. And

5730
05:23:24,479 --> 05:23:27,119
when I say that, you say, you can't argue that.

5731
05:23:27,439 --> 05:23:29,360
Why would you think that? I've been arguing this for years.

5732
05:23:32,040 --> 05:23:34,080
Speaker 33: The one, so, the one in the many is the

5733
05:23:34,200 --> 05:23:36,080
only the only thing that sets it aside.

5734
05:23:36,119 --> 05:23:38,880
Speaker 4: I know, of course, not where are you getting I

5735
05:23:39,840 --> 05:23:40,959
mean no, I mean.

5736
05:23:41,000 --> 05:23:43,240
Speaker 33: As a response to what I'm saying as a response.

5737
05:23:43,279 --> 05:23:46,159
Speaker 4: Now, that's just one example of where Bonson fails. Bonson

5738
05:23:46,159 --> 05:23:48,599
fails on the nature person distinction. He fails in the

5739
05:23:48,720 --> 05:23:51,639
essence interrodustinction. He has the absolute divine simplicity position of

5740
05:23:51,639 --> 05:23:54,119
a Roman Catholics, and so that makes God unknowable. All

5741
05:23:54,200 --> 05:23:57,240
of these things would contribute to why his trinity fails

5742
05:23:57,319 --> 05:23:58,919
to do the grounding work. Do you know what I

5743
05:23:59,000 --> 05:23:59,799
mean when I say that.

5744
05:24:01,759 --> 05:24:03,200
Speaker 33: I believe I understand what you're saying.

5745
05:24:03,279 --> 05:24:03,959
Speaker 2: Yes, I do believe.

5746
05:24:04,000 --> 05:24:04,919
Speaker 33: I understand what you're saying.

5747
05:24:04,959 --> 05:24:08,360
Speaker 4: Okay, so you have to have the metaphysics, so well,

5748
05:24:08,400 --> 05:24:09,919
then that answers your dilemma.

5749
05:24:13,159 --> 05:24:16,240
Speaker 33: Okay, all right, all right, I can see that point.

5750
05:24:16,279 --> 05:24:18,400
Speaker 4: Yes, I'm not like it, but you seem like you don't.

5751
05:24:18,560 --> 05:24:20,319
So you're just saying that to not have an argument

5752
05:24:20,439 --> 05:24:20,959
or something like that.

5753
05:24:21,040 --> 05:24:23,200
Speaker 33: Well, no, I know, I mean I'm working it through.

5754
05:24:23,400 --> 05:24:25,159
But yeah, I am working it through. What can I

5755
05:24:25,200 --> 05:24:27,799
say like it to me? Again, I'm trying to I'm

5756
05:24:27,880 --> 05:24:30,959
just trying to explain that the paradigm level argument is

5757
05:24:31,119 --> 05:24:34,400
just everybody claiming their paradigm. So it's all circular. Because

5758
05:24:34,439 --> 05:24:37,680
you did mention that there's internal You've missed.

5759
05:24:37,720 --> 05:24:40,000
Speaker 4: You've missed the entire point of TAG, which is to

5760
05:24:40,319 --> 05:24:45,560
compare and dispreparadigms by internal inconsistencies at a fundamental level,

5761
05:24:45,599 --> 05:24:49,400
which make knowledge and metaphysics and ethics impossible in that system. So,

5762
05:24:49,439 --> 05:24:52,959
if you want me to be precise with Monson, Bonson's worldview,

5763
05:24:53,040 --> 05:24:56,799
even though he admits TAG doesn't work to do the

5764
05:24:57,040 --> 05:24:59,720
grounding work that he needs it to do because the

5765
05:25:00,279 --> 05:25:03,360
that he wants to ground it in is unknowable, untouchable,

5766
05:25:03,520 --> 05:25:06,400
doesn't interact with the world ultimately because it's the Calvinist deity.

5767
05:25:06,680 --> 05:25:07,240
Speaker 2: So that's.

5768
05:25:08,759 --> 05:25:10,919
Speaker 4: One example, and that's why it doesn't work to do

5769
05:25:11,000 --> 05:25:15,119
any one in many grounding. Sure, you don't Okay, yeah,

5770
05:25:16,159 --> 05:25:18,840
go ahead. That's what I've been saying for years now.

5771
05:25:19,880 --> 05:25:20,840
Speaker 2: No, and I've been listening.

5772
05:25:20,840 --> 05:25:23,799
Speaker 33: I just don't like how these all tie together. Like, look,

5773
05:25:23,840 --> 05:25:26,560
the transcedental argument is just one argument. That's how I

5774
05:25:26,720 --> 05:25:27,000
see it.

5775
05:25:27,080 --> 05:25:30,200
Speaker 2: But you're stating it on a much way.

5776
05:25:30,319 --> 05:25:32,520
Speaker 4: You said you've been listening to me for years. I've

5777
05:25:32,599 --> 05:25:34,119
been making this point for years.

5778
05:25:34,759 --> 05:25:37,680
Speaker 33: Okay, so yeah, almost, Okay, so I'm just slow then,

5779
05:25:37,759 --> 05:25:39,919
but I'm like, I do, I do feel like I'm

5780
05:25:40,799 --> 05:25:43,200
me I'm understanding the transcendental argument.

5781
05:25:43,840 --> 05:25:46,680
Speaker 4: It's listen, maybe this is what help. It's an argument

5782
05:25:47,000 --> 05:25:49,919
for a paradigm. It's not an argument for an abstract

5783
05:25:50,000 --> 05:25:53,840
thing like conceptual reality or universals. It's an argument for

5784
05:25:53,959 --> 05:25:54,959
the entire paradigm.

5785
05:25:55,799 --> 05:25:58,680
Speaker 33: Okay, could I just ask you a question that clarifies. Okay, listen,

5786
05:25:58,880 --> 05:26:02,000
if someone can make an argument, can that argument be

5787
05:26:02,119 --> 05:26:04,919
used for different for different traditions, or for different things.

5788
05:26:05,040 --> 05:26:06,639
I mean that in my mind, that's.

5789
05:26:06,520 --> 05:26:09,520
Speaker 4: Just it doesn't matter, so you keep confusing things that

5790
05:26:09,560 --> 05:26:11,919
are irrelevant to whether it's true or false. So that'd

5791
05:26:11,959 --> 05:26:14,680
be like saying, I mean, could a Mormon use a

5792
05:26:14,799 --> 05:26:19,439
cosmological argument? And does that make the cosmological argument useless

5793
05:26:19,479 --> 05:26:21,880
because Mormons use it. You see how silly that would

5794
05:26:21,959 --> 05:26:22,680
I'm not saying.

5795
05:26:22,599 --> 05:26:24,840
Speaker 33: Use the form of the argument can still be valid

5796
05:26:24,919 --> 05:26:27,080
in my opinion, That's what I'm saying, the form of

5797
05:26:27,119 --> 05:26:27,680
the argument.

5798
05:26:27,759 --> 05:26:30,360
Speaker 4: No, No, you're missing the point, the fact that if

5799
05:26:30,840 --> 05:26:35,680
a Mormon and an atheist and a scientologist use the

5800
05:26:35,799 --> 05:26:41,439
cosmological argument, that doesn't make the cosmological argument relativized to

5801
05:26:41,599 --> 05:26:44,919
the systems. It just means that somebody's are all three

5802
05:26:45,040 --> 05:26:48,240
are misusing it incorrectly and they're inconsistent. Do you see that?

5803
05:26:49,400 --> 05:26:49,680
Speaker 2: Okay?

5804
05:26:49,959 --> 05:26:51,840
Speaker 33: And again this is where I would disagree. I would

5805
05:26:51,840 --> 05:26:55,159
say they're using the argument, they're just plugging in different

5806
05:26:55,439 --> 05:26:57,360
values for what you then, what.

5807
05:26:57,520 --> 05:26:59,759
Speaker 4: The transcenental argument is actually that you have to give

5808
05:26:59,759 --> 05:27:04,240
a count for cosmology and causation itself. You say, so,

5809
05:27:04,319 --> 05:27:06,119
it's a bigger picture than that. It's an argument for

5810
05:27:06,200 --> 05:27:11,080
a paradigm. It's not an argument for Do you understand

5811
05:27:11,080 --> 05:27:13,080
when I say it's an argument for the entire Christian

5812
05:27:13,119 --> 05:27:19,279
paradigm that includes Christian metaphysics. I don't think you're understanding

5813
05:27:19,319 --> 05:27:21,279
that it's an argument for a paradigm, not for a

5814
05:27:21,360 --> 05:27:22,279
peace of the worldview.

5815
05:27:23,119 --> 05:27:25,720
Speaker 33: No, I think I understand a paradigm level argument.

5816
05:27:25,840 --> 05:27:25,880
Speaker 2: No.

5817
05:27:26,040 --> 05:27:29,000
Speaker 4: No, not a paradigm level argument. The argument is for

5818
05:27:29,240 --> 05:27:31,880
the entire Christian paradigm, right, for that's what I.

5819
05:27:31,919 --> 05:27:33,799
Speaker 2: Meant by okay, excuse me, I take that back.

5820
05:27:33,880 --> 05:27:36,240
Speaker 33: A paradigm okay, argument for the paradigm.

5821
05:27:36,319 --> 05:27:39,479
Speaker 4: Yes, I understand that answers your question. So, in other words,

5822
05:27:39,479 --> 05:27:44,759
if a person uses something from my paradigm like teleology

5823
05:27:44,880 --> 05:27:49,479
or causation, that doesn't make my paradigm relativized, and it

5824
05:27:49,560 --> 05:27:52,159
doesn't mean I can't disprove them because they're using elements

5825
05:27:52,200 --> 05:27:52,880
of my worldview.

5826
05:27:53,680 --> 05:27:57,119
Speaker 33: So I'm not saying it invalidates you using the argument.

5827
05:27:57,279 --> 05:28:00,279
I'm just saying it doesn't do the work of all

5828
05:28:00,360 --> 05:28:01,919
the work that someone would want it to do.

5829
05:28:02,080 --> 05:28:02,360
Speaker 2: That's all.

5830
05:28:02,720 --> 05:28:05,680
Speaker 4: But that's because you misunderstand what the argument is, thinking

5831
05:28:05,720 --> 05:28:07,680
that it's only half of the job, which is just

5832
05:28:08,200 --> 05:28:11,520
saying that there's a paradigm level thing. It's also the

5833
05:28:11,639 --> 05:28:15,439
positive case of presenting the Christian paradigm in Christian metaphysics.

5834
05:28:15,520 --> 05:28:18,799
That's the other half of the argument. You can't just say, well,

5835
05:28:19,080 --> 05:28:24,279
I believe that everybody has presuppositions about ethics, metaphysics and uh,

5836
05:28:24,439 --> 05:28:27,159
you know, knowledge and the other positions are inconsistent. That

5837
05:28:27,319 --> 05:28:29,799
doesn't prove your position. You also have to give the

5838
05:28:29,880 --> 05:28:34,319
positive case for Christian metaphysics, Christian ethics, and Christian epistemology,

5839
05:28:34,599 --> 05:28:36,560
and that is only found in the worldview. That's why

5840
05:28:36,560 --> 05:28:37,919
it's an argument for an entire worldview.

5841
05:28:38,000 --> 05:28:41,360
Speaker 33: When I hear the transcendental argument, I do see. I

5842
05:28:41,560 --> 05:28:43,279
just see it was what you first stated.

5843
05:28:43,360 --> 05:28:47,560
Speaker 4: That's that's that's that's what I've been arguing for your Well.

5844
05:28:47,479 --> 05:28:48,000
Speaker 2: I understand.

5845
05:28:48,080 --> 05:28:50,279
Speaker 33: I just that's why I'm disagreeing, and that's why I

5846
05:28:50,360 --> 05:28:50,880
was debating it.

5847
05:28:51,000 --> 05:28:55,639
Speaker 4: So yeah, I understand, Okay, fair enough, that's okay. Yeah,

5848
05:28:55,639 --> 05:28:58,279
I've got some other talks where I think the Phaser talk.

5849
05:28:58,360 --> 05:29:00,360
If you go watch that one recritique phase, I go

5850
05:29:00,479 --> 05:29:02,720
into why it's got to be more than just the

5851
05:29:02,799 --> 05:29:05,720
negative critique. Also, be sure to read the Manion paper

5852
05:29:05,759 --> 05:29:07,520
I think you would do well to read, because Manion

5853
05:29:07,599 --> 05:29:10,720
in that paper of the Contingency of Knowledge, he talks

5854
05:29:10,759 --> 05:29:13,799
about why, even if you just disprove the other world views,

5855
05:29:14,360 --> 05:29:18,720
you also got to do the positive work to present

5856
05:29:18,840 --> 05:29:21,959
you your position, because just a negative critique is not

5857
05:29:22,080 --> 05:29:28,639
enough to justify your position. Jack. Oh he dropped right

5858
05:29:28,639 --> 05:29:46,759
when I'm adding him. You there, bleak, bleak, Hello, can.

5859
05:29:46,680 --> 05:29:48,759
Speaker 2: You hear me, sir? Amazing?

5860
05:29:50,000 --> 05:29:53,759
Speaker 11: Okay, it's so stupid, I'm okay. So I never spoke

5861
05:29:53,840 --> 05:29:55,720
on the next space before anyway.

5862
05:29:56,240 --> 05:30:01,319
Speaker 62: So you said, I believe you said that Gnostics and

5863
05:30:02,119 --> 05:30:06,599
I'm talking about the Christian Christianity, A Gnosticism and Christianity.

5864
05:30:07,919 --> 05:30:12,799
Uh all believed across the board that Jesus didn't have

5865
05:30:12,919 --> 05:30:16,240
a real human body, that he was ephemeral or some

5866
05:30:16,439 --> 05:30:16,959
kind of a No.

5867
05:30:17,080 --> 05:30:20,840
Speaker 4: I said, I said, docitists believe that. I'd say all gnostics.

5868
05:30:21,240 --> 05:30:23,560
Speaker 11: Oh okay, Oh, that's what I was going to say,

5869
05:30:23,599 --> 05:30:26,240
because I thought you just said gnostics.

5870
05:30:26,080 --> 05:30:27,639
Speaker 2: Didn't believe that. I didn't hear that.

5871
05:30:28,000 --> 05:30:29,040
Speaker 4: When when are you talking?

5872
05:30:30,479 --> 05:30:30,759
Speaker 7: Uh you?

5873
05:30:31,279 --> 05:30:33,040
Speaker 2: That's what I was going to say, you know the quatism?

5874
05:30:33,560 --> 05:30:36,599
Speaker 4: Are you talking about the interview with a pastate prophet?

5875
05:30:37,720 --> 05:30:40,799
What are you talking about the interview of the pastate prophet?

5876
05:30:40,880 --> 05:30:42,680
That's the last time I remember talking about.

5877
05:30:42,400 --> 05:30:45,840
Speaker 2: That, No tonight, you said it earlier time.

5878
05:30:46,000 --> 05:30:47,360
Speaker 4: I don't remember that coming up tonight.

5879
05:30:47,959 --> 05:30:52,400
Speaker 2: Oh well that's why I requested to speak, because that

5880
05:30:52,520 --> 05:30:53,240
you did say that.

5881
05:30:55,040 --> 05:30:55,520
Speaker 4: When I took it.

5882
05:30:55,599 --> 05:30:59,560
Speaker 11: I didn't catch the doquatism reference. How do you pronounce

5883
05:30:59,639 --> 05:31:00,439
that headism?

5884
05:31:02,080 --> 05:31:02,560
Speaker 2: How do you u?

5885
05:31:03,040 --> 05:31:07,759
Speaker 4: It's in English? Everybody says docatism, but it's docatism, I

5886
05:31:07,840 --> 05:31:10,119
guess with the k or the hard seat or whatever.

5887
05:31:10,520 --> 05:31:14,000
Speaker 11: Yeah, doctism and so yeah, because you know there's there's

5888
05:31:14,080 --> 05:31:17,880
different sects of gnostics, rostics correct, And of course the

5889
05:31:18,000 --> 05:31:24,119
Valentinians did not believe that Jesus was solelya ephemeral you know, spirit.

5890
05:31:23,959 --> 05:31:25,520
Speaker 2: Human divine.

5891
05:31:25,919 --> 05:31:27,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, correct, you're right out of body.

5892
05:31:27,919 --> 05:31:33,520
Speaker 11: Because they didn't believe that the Christ's entered was born

5893
05:31:34,119 --> 05:31:37,360
as you know, that Jesus wasn't born with as Christ,

5894
05:31:37,439 --> 05:31:42,439
that he was imparted with the divinity of Christ, if

5895
05:31:42,479 --> 05:31:43,840
I understand that correctly.

5896
05:31:44,720 --> 05:31:48,200
Speaker 2: So that's yeah, is that basically you know?

5897
05:31:49,119 --> 05:31:51,000
Speaker 4: That's yeah, that's all you wanted to get to. I

5898
05:31:51,080 --> 05:31:51,720
agree with you on that.

5899
05:31:52,639 --> 05:31:56,279
Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, well thanks for taking my taking my ex

5900
05:31:56,439 --> 05:31:59,360
cherry here, so all right, bye.

5901
05:31:59,200 --> 05:32:01,080
Speaker 4: Bye, Thanks Jack. What's up?

5902
05:32:01,159 --> 05:32:13,720
Speaker 8: Man? Jack?

5903
05:32:19,200 --> 05:32:19,479
Speaker 6: Hello?

5904
05:32:20,639 --> 05:32:24,000
Speaker 2: Can you hear me? How are you? Man?

5905
05:32:26,319 --> 05:32:28,400
Speaker 4: I don't even know right now. I'm kind of like

5906
05:32:28,520 --> 05:32:30,959
in I'm in I feel like I'm in a dissociative state.

5907
05:32:31,040 --> 05:32:31,360
What's up?

5908
05:32:32,880 --> 05:32:35,639
Speaker 2: All right, doing good, but you look like a little

5909
05:32:35,680 --> 05:32:36,159
bit tired.

5910
05:32:38,040 --> 05:32:39,919
Speaker 4: Hello, I mean with it. We're going on six hours,

5911
05:32:39,959 --> 05:32:40,439
so what's up?

5912
05:32:40,919 --> 05:32:41,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.

5913
05:32:42,520 --> 05:32:49,279
Speaker 59: My question is actually before that, I was surging I

5914
05:32:49,439 --> 05:32:54,479
believe the God. I was surging to religions, like I

5915
05:32:54,599 --> 05:33:01,400
searched Catholic, Catholic religions or Christianity or Islamic or a Buddhisim.

5916
05:33:04,080 --> 05:33:05,720
Speaker 2: At that at that point.

5917
05:33:07,080 --> 05:33:10,479
Speaker 59: I realized something in the Quran. It was it was

5918
05:33:10,560 --> 05:33:14,520
really interesting. I just want to mention about that because

5919
05:33:14,720 --> 05:33:18,200
my question is related with this information.

5920
05:33:19,040 --> 05:33:19,159
Speaker 35: Uh.

5921
05:33:21,159 --> 05:33:26,200
Speaker 59: Yeah. When I started the Quran, I I read some

5922
05:33:28,400 --> 05:33:33,360
I read some academic writer and they was mentioned about that.

5923
05:33:33,560 --> 05:33:33,919
Speaker 2: It was.

5924
05:33:36,439 --> 05:33:48,599
Speaker 59: Like Smarianism, Aztecs Babylon or Judaism or Genesis Talmud or

5925
05:33:49,799 --> 05:33:57,200
gold Muskatonic, Katonical and Apercle Gospels.

5926
05:33:57,840 --> 05:34:00,080
Speaker 2: Uh, and like history after.

5927
05:34:00,080 --> 05:34:10,360
Speaker 59: Religions me trilogists like astronomy, Madison, physics, okay, what trilogy

5928
05:34:11,639 --> 05:34:15,040
or just a second uh, just like.

5929
05:34:16,759 --> 05:34:17,159
Speaker 7: Egypt.

5930
05:34:20,279 --> 05:34:23,400
Speaker 4: And my question is that, like you're not going to

5931
05:34:23,439 --> 05:34:27,919
read a whole encyclopedia entrance and then tell me to

5932
05:34:28,040 --> 05:34:31,880
hold on. I think my mind is about mush. I

5933
05:34:31,919 --> 05:34:34,840
don't think I can go on anymore. Uh, thank you guys.

5934
05:34:34,880 --> 05:34:41,040
A lot of fun tonight, Wild I'm spent on mush. Everybody,

5935
05:34:41,080 --> 05:34:41,560
have a good night.