Speaker 1: Hello, friends, Have you found Jesus? Has he come in
Speaker 1: to your heart? Is he the captain of your ship
Speaker 1: and the lighter to your path? Well, we are looking
Speaker 1: for him today in Mississippi and churches that tend to
Speaker 1: be a bit more authoritarian if you don't have them,
Speaker 1: aj has a story aj.
Speaker 2: Hi Cynthia, Today we are definitely looking for Jesus. Sheriff
Speaker 2: Kevin Crook at the Monroe County Sheriff's Office in Mississippi
Speaker 2: recently posted not one, but two personal messages on the
Speaker 2: official Sheriff's office page after a man was arrested on
Speaker 2: charges of mathame, fhatamine and weapons possession, claiming that the
Speaker 2: only solution that he sees to the county's drug problem
Speaker 2: is finding Jesus. The second article that we're discussing, interestingly enough,
Speaker 2: provides arguments that people with higher church attendance weights and
Speaker 2: religiosity tend to also have high authoritarian attitudes as well
Speaker 2: as a higher level of support for conservative political figures.
Speaker 2: The writers showed with very clear data that white evangelists, Republicans,
Speaker 2: white Catholics, and Christian nationalists all have a much higher
Speaker 2: level of authoritarian behavior as well as leaning to support
Speaker 2: heavily conservative authoritarian politicians. These articles are from The Friendly
Speaker 2: Atheists by Herman Metta and Religion Dispatches by Christie's Troop,
Speaker 2: and they were both posted on September thirteenth, twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: Thank you, aj, And I'm going to come to you
Speaker 1: with my first question. I want to know how effective
Speaker 1: or do you see anything in being effective? Can religious
Speaker 1: belief systems be in addressing systemic problems like drug addiction,
Speaker 1: especially in regions that already are saturated with religious metaging.
Speaker 2: So personally, I don't believe that religion can be used
Speaker 2: specifically or strictly for resolving any type of drug issue.
Speaker 2: And Sheriff Crook said in his post that the drug
Speaker 2: problem in Monroe County was so severe that he didn't
Speaker 2: really know what the solution was other than quote, we
Speaker 2: all truly find Jesus, but we've got to get tougher
Speaker 2: sentences on those who are making their living selling this
Speaker 2: stuff to our family members, which was actually a very
Speaker 2: weird thing to say because it claims that his family
Speaker 2: members are drug addicts. Have they lost Jesus? I think
Speaker 2: you know. Later on he actually posted a video on
Speaker 2: the official Monroe Counter Serance Department Facebook page. It was
Speaker 2: right after this and he was heard saying, I know
Speaker 2: Jesus is coming back one day, and we've all got
Speaker 2: until that day to figure out or on eternities. So
Speaker 2: on the grand scale of things today, I would rather
Speaker 2: be concerned with that than anything else. So that was
Speaker 2: his quote, right, And this is really concerning to me
Speaker 2: because it indicates that he is more worried about his
Speaker 2: eternity than how to solve the root cause of the
Speaker 2: drug problem, as you ask those religion help with solving
Speaker 2: this problem, and in this case, focusing so heavily on
Speaker 2: obtaining heavily heavenly eternity takes away the concern about the
Speaker 2: problems that we are facing here on earth, because as
Speaker 2: soon as you find Jesus, you know he's got you,
Speaker 2: in this case the drug problem, and it is taking
Speaker 2: away the sheriff's ability to see past salvation and apply
Speaker 2: critical thinking to solving the problem of the drugs in
Speaker 2: his county.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, if we're going to be fair, would
Speaker 1: a shariff really know how to deal with the systemic
Speaker 1: issue like drug addiction? Like would they really be the
Speaker 1: proper person that would be knowledgeable on how to address
Speaker 1: how institutions and economic issues and things of that nature
Speaker 1: really would be a thing that would cause issue and
Speaker 1: not necessarily looking at those things. Instead, they're going to
Speaker 1: look at the possibility of reaching heaven or bringing Heaven
Speaker 1: on earth through Jesus to see about solving that issue.
Speaker 1: And Scott, I'm wondering in what ways since we kind
Speaker 1: of talked a bit about how if, well if religious
Speaker 1: belief could be something that could quell the drug issue,
Speaker 1: and I think that we came to the conclusion of
Speaker 1: net but in what ways could mixing religious process tation
Speaker 1: with law enforcement duties potentially hinder effective solutions to public
Speaker 1: health crisis? Is like the drug academic.
Speaker 3: Well, setting aside the constitutional issue, I mean, that's kind
Speaker 3: of the big thing looming over this whole thing is
Speaker 3: the United States Constitution, you know everything that I'm sure
Speaker 3: the the sheriff had to swear an oath of office
Speaker 3: and swear to uphold the Constitution. So but if we
Speaker 3: set that aside, yeah, I mean there's definitely going to
Speaker 3: be issues because if if this type of religious indoctrinationly proselytization,
Speaker 3: there's a word for you, if they if they're if
Speaker 3: they're tightly connected to the law enforcement. Then that that's
Speaker 3: an issue, especially in smaller areas where there's not a
Speaker 3: lot of those checks and balances in place. Uh, it
Speaker 3: puts a lot of It gives a lot of power
Speaker 3: to a judge who basically reigns supreme over you know,
Speaker 3: a certain district area or a shriff or something like that.
Speaker 3: It gives them a lot of power to apply pressure
Speaker 3: to if their personal religious beliefs are that they're supposed
Speaker 3: to go out and make fissures of men. And here
Speaker 3: they have a captive off audience. Very often, very literally,
Speaker 3: they have a captive audience. And so it it's just
Speaker 3: rife with with issues. It's it's it's poised to be
Speaker 3: perfectly set up to be taken advantage of. And and
Speaker 3: we see that happen very often when judges a sign
Speaker 3: you can go to if you go to this religious
Speaker 3: recovery program, then you can you know, shorten your sentence
Speaker 3: or variety of things like that. And so it's it's
Speaker 3: very much it's just, you know, it just muddies the
Speaker 3: water in such a way that it makes it very
Speaker 3: difficult to separate. And and so I think it's just uh,
Speaker 3: you know, we have checks and balances in this country
Speaker 3: for a reason, and you know this is one of them.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm wondering, and I'm going to come back
Speaker 1: to you, Aj, because like I think that one of
Speaker 1: the things that you kind of brought up a little
Speaker 1: bit as you were talking Scott, is some addiction programs
Speaker 1: like you know, Alcoholic Anonymous, drug Anonymous, you know, things
Speaker 1: of that nature DAAA, which have like a more religious
Speaker 1: belief bend to it in order to deal with a
Speaker 1: person who happens to have an addiction that they're trying
Speaker 1: to squash, right, But there may be some data behind
Speaker 1: having a higher religious you know, leaning that will lead
Speaker 1: you to be less prone to addiction. But Aj, I'm wondering,
Speaker 1: do you really think that the there is a correlation
Speaker 1: that higher religiosity would be something that would help quell
Speaker 1: or keep one from drug addictions or any other addictions,
Speaker 1: or do you think that that is something that is
Speaker 1: actually kind of skewed.
Speaker 2: I have actually heard the same thing before, you know,
Speaker 2: regarding AA where it is a very heavily a very
Speaker 2: religious tone to it. And I did look into some
Speaker 2: studies that show that people with higher religiosity tend to
Speaker 2: have a lower rate of addiction, and they also recover
Speaker 2: from addiction at higher rates. But the more I questioned
Speaker 2: the reasoning behind it and looked more into it, the
Speaker 2: more it lined that with the second article that we're
Speaker 2: actually going to be reviewed later today, and it seems
Speaker 2: that higher religiosity leads people to become more conservative and
Speaker 2: more authoritarian and those lower addiction rates. But one may
Speaker 2: think that this is a positive aspect of religion. However,
Speaker 2: it isn't a Jesus Healed you situation. The root cause
Speaker 2: of their addiction hasn't been dealt with. Rather, the religious
Speaker 2: method is using fear and dogmatic oppression or you have
Speaker 2: to get claim because it's wrong, because it's bad. Right.
Speaker 2: And there's also the case where some people are replacing
Speaker 2: drugs with Jesus literally right. In the medical field, this
Speaker 2: is called a process addiction, and instead of a chemical
Speaker 2: substance let's say cocaine, it is an activity or a
Speaker 2: behavior that induces that hike by increasing dopamine. And in
Speaker 2: this case, it can come from following the rules that
Speaker 2: are set by authority figures in church, prayer, or any
Speaker 2: other type of spiritual activity that gives the person that
Speaker 2: Rush Scott.
Speaker 1: I think that you also brought up in some of
Speaker 1: your research, some studies that you've found concerning religious recovery
Speaker 1: versus non religious recovery programs. So do you want to
Speaker 1: talk about that a bit more.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we were saying that there is a correlation between
Speaker 3: a person's higher religiosity and their ability to better cope
Speaker 3: with addiction issues, either becoming less likely to become addicted
Speaker 3: or more likely to be able to recover believe it
Speaker 3: more quickly. So there is some research that seems to
Speaker 3: support this idea that these religious recovery programs are effective.
Speaker 3: But there's a couple of things that stand out to me.
Speaker 3: One is that the particular religious or spiritual beliefs of
Speaker 3: the attict don't really make a difference. In other words,
Speaker 3: the recovering addicts of one religion stick with their recovery
Speaker 3: just as much as those from another religion. And so
Speaker 3: that kind of implies to us that it's not necessarily
Speaker 3: the specific religion, it's more religion in general as an institution,
Speaker 3: among other things. And so and so, as Aga was saying,
Speaker 3: it's not that Jesus heals you, or that Allah heals
Speaker 3: you or whatever, or your ancestors heal you, or however
Speaker 3: you want to phrase it. It's that it's that this
Speaker 3: being involved with that type of activity, that type of
Speaker 3: community can make a difference. The second thing is that
Speaker 3: there are non religious recovery programs that are structured similarly
Speaker 3: similarly to those religious programs, and they turn out to
Speaker 3: be just as effective as the religious programs. Here's a
Speaker 3: quote from addictioncenter dot com. They said that a study
Speaker 3: found in the Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment compared the
Speaker 3: effectiveness of non religious treatment programs WFS, LifeRing, and smart
Speaker 3: Recovery to other twelve step programs. Researchers found the alternatives
Speaker 3: were just as effective as the religious twelve step programs
Speaker 3: due to the following benefits. And they specifically cited four benefits.
Speaker 3: And I will point out to you that none of
Speaker 3: these mentioned anything about God.
Speaker 2: Here.
Speaker 3: First social support for abstinence. Second attendance in a group
Speaker 3: meeting or group setting. Three sober culture, and four tools
Speaker 3: to motivate abstinence.
Speaker 1: And so.
Speaker 3: This research seems to indicate, or seems to nudge us
Speaker 3: in the direction of thinking that it's not so much
Speaker 3: the religion, it's not the content it's the context of
Speaker 3: that content. It's the way that religious organizations operate there.
Speaker 3: They tend to encourage friendliness, they tend to encourage mutual support,
Speaker 3: They tend to encourage relying on each other, calling each
Speaker 3: other when there's issues, and things like that. They have
Speaker 3: these prayer circles which encourage you to be thoughtful of
Speaker 3: other people within the group, and that kind of thing,
Speaker 3: reach out if there's a problem, whether you have the
Speaker 3: problem or somebody else has the problem. And so there's
Speaker 3: many aspects that I think in statistics we would call
Speaker 3: them confounding variables. Basically, it's not the religion that's helping,
Speaker 3: and I think the evidence is pretty clear and showing
Speaker 3: that it's not that it's the social environment that happens
Speaker 3: to be created in a religious institution. I would be
Speaker 3: very interested I told you that they compared non religious
Speaker 3: recovery programs that had a similar structure and found that
Speaker 3: they were just as effective. I'd be curious if they
Speaker 3: looked at things like recovering religious addicts that are not
Speaker 3: necessarily involved in a twelve step program, but maybe are
Speaker 3: trying to do things like pray the addiction away or
Speaker 3: something else that might be a different kind of of
Speaker 3: social setups. So you know, clearly there's more research to
Speaker 3: be done, but the stuff that I've seen so far
Speaker 3: is really indicating that it's a social solution or a
Speaker 3: social species. That's not surprising at all, but there's a
Speaker 3: social solution there, and it's not a divine solution.
Speaker 2: Speaking of solutions, do you men if I add something
Speaker 2: to that please? There are many countries that are a
Speaker 2: lot more secular than the United States, for example Switzerland
Speaker 2: and the Netherlands, and they are using the criminalization as
Speaker 2: a method of dealing with drug addiction with pretty good success.
Speaker 2: They have lower rates of debt by over those because
Speaker 2: they have implemented several programs that reduce harm. Some of
Speaker 2: these programs are like the nelogues on Access and Distribution
Speaker 2: for opiate addiction, supervisee use sites. Those are especially for
Speaker 2: injected drugs like heroine, and then more accessible mental healths
Speaker 2: creen in and treatment programs. Those are also important. In
Speaker 2: the United States, the only place to try the decriminalization
Speaker 2: program was Oregon. They tried it in twenty twenty and
Speaker 2: it worked pretty well, but unfortunately it was during COVID
Speaker 2: and there were some issues that sort of made it
Speaker 2: take a step back, and eventually in twenty twenty two
Speaker 2: they completely repealed that role. So it's no longer up to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that has a tendency to be more so on
Speaker 1: clinics and other health organizations that are produced that are
Speaker 1: pushing harm reduction programs that would have actually things like
Speaker 1: the data would support that methodology more so then trying
Speaker 1: to be a bit more restricted when it comes to
Speaker 1: like addiction. And I was even going back to I
Speaker 1: was even thinking about those structures that you were talking about, Scott,
Speaker 1: especially that secular programs that mirror some of the things
Speaker 1: that the religious programs does, and I thought that it
Speaker 1: was very interesting that one of those things that was
Speaker 1: encouraged and push is abstinent And I was thinking to myself,
Speaker 1: like why is that the case? And then it kind
Speaker 1: of hit me that you know a lot of times
Speaker 1: that people are taking using any type of like substance
Speaker 1: and they do it in like social activities, right, and
Speaker 1: you know, possibly if you are a person that has
Speaker 1: a tendency to maybe like use with a partner used
Speaker 1: to induce like you know a more uh helped me out,
Speaker 1: guys with the worst that I'm looking for a more
Speaker 1: potent experience when you.
Speaker 4: Are you know, and yeah, we follow us on the
Speaker 4: only thing.
Speaker 5: Exactly you can reach us out right link below, right
Speaker 5: it make sure you give to the patron. But yeah,
Speaker 5: but like oftentimes, like when you're looking at like what
Speaker 5: is the behavior that a person is doing in order
Speaker 5: that's like coupled with you know, substance use, it could
Speaker 5: be like, hey, well let's see if we can kind
Speaker 5: of like stop this particular behavior for a while to
Speaker 5: help you get.
Speaker 1: Through your addiction. Right. Yeah, But one of the things
Speaker 1: that drug not necessarily drug, but one of the things
Speaker 1: that harm reduction actually teaches is that even though that
Speaker 1: you may be going through some type of recovery program,
Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily mean that you are completely cured per
Speaker 1: se of addiction. Your addiction is still there. You just
Speaker 1: learn how to manage it, right, And I think that
Speaker 1: that's one of the things that a lot of times
Speaker 1: that when you're looking at people like the sheriff in
Speaker 1: Mississippi saying, well, all you need is Jesus and just pray,
Speaker 1: you know, pray the addiction away, and Jesus will come
Speaker 1: in into your heart and do things to you. You know,
Speaker 1: that's that after dark type stuff, guys, then you're you're fine, right,
Speaker 1: But the problem is is that you are still your
Speaker 1: your your addiction is still there. It's just that you
Speaker 1: just found a way to kind of like cover it,
Speaker 1: placate it, kind of move the goalpost a little bit
Speaker 1: away from it because you're focused more on Jesus than
Speaker 1: actually doing you know, other things. I'm curious to know,
Speaker 1: because I didn't look this up. What is the the
Speaker 1: difference or like the data that says if a person
Speaker 1: actually uses a religious program to deal with their addictions
Speaker 1: versus a secular program, and what is the rate of recidicism?
Speaker 1: Uh with either or I think that would be interesting
Speaker 1: to see. I would I would think that if you
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have like proper tools that are reasonable and
Speaker 1: will liable in reality to deal with things like that,
Speaker 1: that your the success rate wouldn't be as high. You
Speaker 1: know that. That would be my that would be my guess.
Speaker 1: But it's really it's.
Speaker 3: Really tough to compare those kind of things because a
Speaker 3: lot of the success a lot of the data on
Speaker 3: success rates is all self reported, and so they might
Speaker 3: they're have different standards like for many many years, alcoholics
Speaker 3: Anonymous would would report their information, but they would only
Speaker 3: count people that stuck with the program. And that's kind
Speaker 3: of like most of the battle there, isn't it. I Mean,
Speaker 3: if people start using, they're asked to stop, they're asked
Speaker 3: to leave the program, or or you know, they weren't
Speaker 3: being counted. And so so if we want to have
Speaker 3: some kind of systematic approach here, which you know, I
Speaker 3: think would be obviously the wise thing to do, we
Speaker 3: need to have solid data. And in order to have
Speaker 3: that solid data, you need to have have it be
Speaker 3: independent from the organization that is that is being reported on.
Speaker 3: And so yeah, so it's it's a sticky, sticky kind
Speaker 3: of set up there. It's it's tough too. It's tough
Speaker 3: to make wise decisions when you don't have all of
Speaker 3: the information, and it's tough to get all the information
Speaker 3: when it's when it's being clouded by various things.
Speaker 1: Because that data is not objectionable. Yeah, it's not objective, objective,
Speaker 1: object it's not objective. It is objectionable. Actually, yes, yeah, well,
Speaker 1: you know, like I wanted to, like, I guess we
Speaker 1: didn't really get a chance to talk a little bit
Speaker 1: more about authoritarianism when it comes to religion. But I
Speaker 1: think that, you know, one of the things that could
Speaker 1: be a correlation between both articles is this like fear factor, right,
Speaker 1: And I think that both of you all kind of
Speaker 1: alluded to it when it came to Hey, if you
Speaker 1: happen to be in a religious organization where there is
Speaker 1: this very restrictive way that you have to behave in
Speaker 1: order for you to be able to stay in it,
Speaker 1: then of course you're not necessarily going to do certain
Speaker 1: things that like, you know, use drugs or you won't
Speaker 1: have sex before marriage. Maybe you know, because I've been
Speaker 1: in holiness churches where people were doing all types of stuff,
Speaker 1: right right, right, yeah, right.
Speaker 2: I again I.
Speaker 1: Say it's never worked, but I wanted to But I
Speaker 1: know that we just want to wrap up, but I
Speaker 1: want to give you to dislike the last lad, like
Speaker 1: what do you feel and both of you all can
Speaker 1: actually like hit hit on this, like what do you
Speaker 1: feel the role of non religious groups play in countering
Speaker 1: the rise of authoritarianism, whether it be just like in
Speaker 1: a church in our purview as far as like you know,
Speaker 1: us being like you know, part of America, and also
Speaker 1: like impossibilities of you know, recovery programs that are religiously
Speaker 1: Ran Scott, you started Naja, you finished us up.
Speaker 3: Well, I think that you know, as far as authoritarianism
Speaker 3: is concerned, you know, there's just tons and tons of
Speaker 3: data showing that there's a very strong link between authoritarian
Speaker 3: attitudes and your political position and your religious position, and
Speaker 3: that conservatism in both religion and politics is indicated by
Speaker 3: you know, a strong authoritarian bent Age had mentioned something
Speaker 3: about how being a conservative Christian can lead you towards authoritarianism.
Speaker 3: Actually the research kind of hints that it's the reverse, right,
Speaker 3: It's the people that have these authoritarian beliefs, things like purity,
Speaker 3: things like loyalty, things like blind obedience and that kind
Speaker 3: of thing, have a tendency to become more conservative politically,
Speaker 3: and more extreme and political and conservative rather religiously. And
Speaker 3: so there's a strong tie there. So you ask what
Speaker 3: role do non religious groups have in dealing with this
Speaker 3: kind of thing. Well, first of all, as far as
Speaker 3: the the addiction treatment is concerned, I think they provide
Speaker 3: viable options. And so then, uh, you know, a judge
Speaker 3: out in the middle of nowhere can't say, well, this
Speaker 3: is the only thing we got. You know, you have
Speaker 3: to do a program and all we have is AA
Speaker 3: and then but then but if there are other options,
Speaker 3: then it just kind of takes that, it takes that
Speaker 3: excuse out of the toolbox there, and so I think
Speaker 3: it provides options. I think the second most important thing,
Speaker 3: uh that the non religious groups would would provide is
Speaker 3: that they give society in general a perspective. They can
Speaker 3: we can show that no, you don't if you want
Speaker 3: to achieve this goal, whether it be you know, breaking
Speaker 3: off your addiction or whatever, you don't necessarily have to
Speaker 3: go down this road. So it gives it gives the
Speaker 3: the the legislators and the leaders one less leveraged to
Speaker 3: push people into that into that nook. And but it
Speaker 3: also gives people one less reason that they feel they
Speaker 3: have to go that direction. And so I think really
Speaker 3: just option and viability, I think that just makes it
Speaker 3: a huge difference there.
Speaker 2: And what's the you aj Yeah, I think you know,
Speaker 2: in the first article that we read word Sheriff Crook,
Speaker 2: he said that he was calling for harsher punishment for
Speaker 2: addicts and criminals. And I think that that clearly shows
Speaker 2: what Scott just said, these authoritarian figures here, you have
Speaker 2: somebody that isn't even a preacher, right, and he was
Speaker 2: preaching from a position of public authority. He was abused
Speaker 2: in his power. So I think our job in those situations,
Speaker 2: as as secular people, we need to speak up and
Speaker 2: make sure that we callote them accountable. And on the
Speaker 2: other hand, we can also do a little bit more
Speaker 2: to help people understand the root of the issues that
Speaker 2: we are that we're having. You know, in the example
Speaker 2: of addiction, right, we can use a humanist approach and
Speaker 2: help people realize that these are things that are caused
Speaker 2: by psychological trauma and until you deal with that, there
Speaker 2: is no way that you're going to be able to
Speaker 2: use religion in the context to recover. It's still going
Speaker 2: to continue to be there.
Speaker 1: Well, I would definitely say, dear viewer, that we will
Speaker 1: continue to be here if you want to watch no
Speaker 1: profits or nonprofits, right, that's the name of the show.