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<v Speaker 1>Hello, friends, Have you found Jesus? Has he come in

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<v Speaker 1>to your heart? Is he the captain of your ship

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<v Speaker 1>and the lighter to your path? Well, we are looking

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<v Speaker 1>for him today in Mississippi and churches that tend to

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<v Speaker 1>be a bit more authoritarian if you don't have them,

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<v Speaker 1>aj has a story aj.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi Cynthia, Today we are definitely looking for Jesus. Sheriff

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<v Speaker 2>Kevin Crook at the Monroe County Sheriff's Office in Mississippi

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<v Speaker 2>recently posted not one, but two personal messages on the

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<v Speaker 2>official Sheriff's office page after a man was arrested on

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<v Speaker 2>charges of mathame, fhatamine and weapons possession, claiming that the

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<v Speaker 2>only solution that he sees to the county's drug problem

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<v Speaker 2>is finding Jesus. The second article that we're discussing, interestingly enough,

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<v Speaker 2>provides arguments that people with higher church attendance weights and

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<v Speaker 2>religiosity tend to also have high authoritarian attitudes as well

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<v Speaker 2>as a higher level of support for conservative political figures.

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<v Speaker 2>The writers showed with very clear data that white evangelists, Republicans,

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<v Speaker 2>white Catholics, and Christian nationalists all have a much higher

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<v Speaker 2>level of authoritarian behavior as well as leaning to support

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<v Speaker 2>heavily conservative authoritarian politicians. These articles are from The Friendly

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<v Speaker 2>Atheists by Herman Metta and Religion Dispatches by Christie's Troop,

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<v Speaker 2>and they were both posted on September thirteenth, twenty twenty four.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you, aj, And I'm going to come to you

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<v Speaker 1>with my first question. I want to know how effective

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<v Speaker 1>or do you see anything in being effective? Can religious

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<v Speaker 1>belief systems be in addressing systemic problems like drug addiction,

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<v Speaker 1>especially in regions that already are saturated with religious metaging.

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<v Speaker 2>So personally, I don't believe that religion can be used

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<v Speaker 2>specifically or strictly for resolving any type of drug issue.

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<v Speaker 2>And Sheriff Crook said in his post that the drug

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<v Speaker 2>problem in Monroe County was so severe that he didn't

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<v Speaker 2>really know what the solution was other than quote, we

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<v Speaker 2>all truly find Jesus, but we've got to get tougher

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<v Speaker 2>sentences on those who are making their living selling this

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<v Speaker 2>stuff to our family members, which was actually a very

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<v Speaker 2>weird thing to say because it claims that his family

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<v Speaker 2>members are drug addicts. Have they lost Jesus? I think

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<v Speaker 2>you know. Later on he actually posted a video on

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<v Speaker 2>the official Monroe Counter Serance Department Facebook page. It was

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<v Speaker 2>right after this and he was heard saying, I know

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<v Speaker 2>Jesus is coming back one day, and we've all got

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<v Speaker 2>until that day to figure out or on eternities. So

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<v Speaker 2>on the grand scale of things today, I would rather

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<v Speaker 2>be concerned with that than anything else. So that was

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<v Speaker 2>his quote, right, And this is really concerning to me

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<v Speaker 2>because it indicates that he is more worried about his

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<v Speaker 2>eternity than how to solve the root cause of the

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<v Speaker 2>drug problem, as you ask those religion help with solving

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<v Speaker 2>this problem, and in this case, focusing so heavily on

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<v Speaker 2>obtaining heavily heavenly eternity takes away the concern about the

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<v Speaker 2>problems that we are facing here on earth, because as

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<v Speaker 2>soon as you find Jesus, you know he's got you,

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<v Speaker 2>in this case the drug problem, and it is taking

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<v Speaker 2>away the sheriff's ability to see past salvation and apply

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<v Speaker 2>critical thinking to solving the problem of the drugs in

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<v Speaker 2>his county.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean, if we're going to be fair, would

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<v Speaker 1>a shariff really know how to deal with the systemic

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<v Speaker 1>issue like drug addiction? Like would they really be the

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<v Speaker 1>proper person that would be knowledgeable on how to address

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<v Speaker 1>how institutions and economic issues and things of that nature

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<v Speaker 1>really would be a thing that would cause issue and

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<v Speaker 1>not necessarily looking at those things. Instead, they're going to

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<v Speaker 1>look at the possibility of reaching heaven or bringing Heaven

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<v Speaker 1>on earth through Jesus to see about solving that issue.

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<v Speaker 1>And Scott, I'm wondering in what ways since we kind

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<v Speaker 1>of talked a bit about how if, well if religious

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<v Speaker 1>belief could be something that could quell the drug issue,

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<v Speaker 1>and I think that we came to the conclusion of

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<v Speaker 1>net but in what ways could mixing religious process tation

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<v Speaker 1>with law enforcement duties potentially hinder effective solutions to public

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<v Speaker 1>health crisis? Is like the drug academic.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, setting aside the constitutional issue, I mean, that's kind

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<v Speaker 3>of the big thing looming over this whole thing is

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<v Speaker 3>the United States Constitution, you know everything that I'm sure

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<v Speaker 3>the the sheriff had to swear an oath of office

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<v Speaker 3>and swear to uphold the Constitution. So but if we

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<v Speaker 3>set that aside, yeah, I mean there's definitely going to

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<v Speaker 3>be issues because if if this type of religious indoctrinationly proselytization,

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<v Speaker 3>there's a word for you, if they if they're if

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<v Speaker 3>they're tightly connected to the law enforcement. Then that that's

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<v Speaker 3>an issue, especially in smaller areas where there's not a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of those checks and balances in place. Uh, it

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<v Speaker 3>puts a lot of It gives a lot of power

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<v Speaker 3>to a judge who basically reigns supreme over you know,

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<v Speaker 3>a certain district area or a shriff or something like that.

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<v Speaker 3>It gives them a lot of power to apply pressure

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<v Speaker 3>to if their personal religious beliefs are that they're supposed

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<v Speaker 3>to go out and make fissures of men. And here

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<v Speaker 3>they have a captive off audience. Very often, very literally,

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<v Speaker 3>they have a captive audience. And so it it's just

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<v Speaker 3>rife with with issues. It's it's it's poised to be

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<v Speaker 3>perfectly set up to be taken advantage of. And and

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<v Speaker 3>we see that happen very often when judges a sign

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<v Speaker 3>you can go to if you go to this religious

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<v Speaker 3>recovery program, then you can you know, shorten your sentence

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<v Speaker 3>or variety of things like that. And so it's it's

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<v Speaker 3>very much it's just, you know, it just muddies the

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<v Speaker 3>water in such a way that it makes it very

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<v Speaker 3>difficult to separate. And and so I think it's just uh,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, we have checks and balances in this country

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<v Speaker 3>for a reason, and you know this is one of them.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I'm wondering, and I'm going to come back

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<v Speaker 1>to you, Aj, because like I think that one of

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<v Speaker 1>the things that you kind of brought up a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit as you were talking Scott, is some addiction programs

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<v Speaker 1>like you know, Alcoholic Anonymous, drug Anonymous, you know, things

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<v Speaker 1>of that nature DAAA, which have like a more religious

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<v Speaker 1>belief bend to it in order to deal with a

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<v Speaker 1>person who happens to have an addiction that they're trying

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<v Speaker 1>to squash, right, But there may be some data behind

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<v Speaker 1>having a higher religious you know, leaning that will lead

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<v Speaker 1>you to be less prone to addiction. But Aj, I'm wondering,

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<v Speaker 1>do you really think that the there is a correlation

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<v Speaker 1>that higher religiosity would be something that would help quell

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<v Speaker 1>or keep one from drug addictions or any other addictions,

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<v Speaker 1>or do you think that that is something that is

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<v Speaker 1>actually kind of skewed.

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<v Speaker 2>I have actually heard the same thing before, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>regarding AA where it is a very heavily a very

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<v Speaker 2>religious tone to it. And I did look into some

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<v Speaker 2>studies that show that people with higher religiosity tend to

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<v Speaker 2>have a lower rate of addiction, and they also recover

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<v Speaker 2>from addiction at higher rates. But the more I questioned

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<v Speaker 2>the reasoning behind it and looked more into it, the

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<v Speaker 2>more it lined that with the second article that we're

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<v Speaker 2>actually going to be reviewed later today, and it seems

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<v Speaker 2>that higher religiosity leads people to become more conservative and

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<v Speaker 2>more authoritarian and those lower addiction rates. But one may

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<v Speaker 2>think that this is a positive aspect of religion. However,

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<v Speaker 2>it isn't a Jesus Healed you situation. The root cause

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<v Speaker 2>of their addiction hasn't been dealt with. Rather, the religious

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<v Speaker 2>method is using fear and dogmatic oppression or you have

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<v Speaker 2>to get claim because it's wrong, because it's bad. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>And there's also the case where some people are replacing

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<v Speaker 2>drugs with Jesus literally right. In the medical field, this

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<v Speaker 2>is called a process addiction, and instead of a chemical

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<v Speaker 2>substance let's say cocaine, it is an activity or a

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<v Speaker 2>behavior that induces that hike by increasing dopamine. And in

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<v Speaker 2>this case, it can come from following the rules that

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<v Speaker 2>are set by authority figures in church, prayer, or any

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<v Speaker 2>other type of spiritual activity that gives the person that

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<v Speaker 2>Rush Scott.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that you also brought up in some of

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<v Speaker 1>your research, some studies that you've found concerning religious recovery

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<v Speaker 1>versus non religious recovery programs. So do you want to

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<v Speaker 1>talk about that a bit more.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, we were saying that there is a correlation between

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<v Speaker 3>a person's higher religiosity and their ability to better cope

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<v Speaker 3>with addiction issues, either becoming less likely to become addicted

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<v Speaker 3>or more likely to be able to recover believe it

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<v Speaker 3>more quickly. So there is some research that seems to

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<v Speaker 3>support this idea that these religious recovery programs are effective.

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<v Speaker 3>But there's a couple of things that stand out to me.

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<v Speaker 3>One is that the particular religious or spiritual beliefs of

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<v Speaker 3>the attict don't really make a difference. In other words,

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<v Speaker 3>the recovering addicts of one religion stick with their recovery

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<v Speaker 3>just as much as those from another religion. And so

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<v Speaker 3>that kind of implies to us that it's not necessarily

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<v Speaker 3>the specific religion, it's more religion in general as an institution,

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<v Speaker 3>among other things. And so and so, as Aga was saying,

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<v Speaker 3>it's not that Jesus heals you, or that Allah heals

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<v Speaker 3>you or whatever, or your ancestors heal you, or however

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<v Speaker 3>you want to phrase it. It's that it's that this

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<v Speaker 3>being involved with that type of activity, that type of

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<v Speaker 3>community can make a difference. The second thing is that

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<v Speaker 3>there are non religious recovery programs that are structured similarly

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<v Speaker 3>similarly to those religious programs, and they turn out to

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<v Speaker 3>be just as effective as the religious programs. Here's a

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<v Speaker 3>quote from addictioncenter dot com. They said that a study

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<v Speaker 3>found in the Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment compared the

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<v Speaker 3>effectiveness of non religious treatment programs WFS, LifeRing, and smart

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<v Speaker 3>Recovery to other twelve step programs. Researchers found the alternatives

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<v Speaker 3>were just as effective as the religious twelve step programs

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<v Speaker 3>due to the following benefits. And they specifically cited four benefits.

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<v Speaker 3>And I will point out to you that none of

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<v Speaker 3>these mentioned anything about God.

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<v Speaker 2>Here.

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<v Speaker 3>First social support for abstinence. Second attendance in a group

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<v Speaker 3>meeting or group setting. Three sober culture, and four tools

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<v Speaker 3>to motivate abstinence.

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<v Speaker 1>And so.

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<v Speaker 3>This research seems to indicate, or seems to nudge us

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<v Speaker 3>in the direction of thinking that it's not so much

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<v Speaker 3>the religion, it's not the content it's the context of

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<v Speaker 3>that content. It's the way that religious organizations operate there.

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<v Speaker 3>They tend to encourage friendliness, they tend to encourage mutual support,

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<v Speaker 3>They tend to encourage relying on each other, calling each

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<v Speaker 3>other when there's issues, and things like that. They have

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<v Speaker 3>these prayer circles which encourage you to be thoughtful of

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<v Speaker 3>other people within the group, and that kind of thing,

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<v Speaker 3>reach out if there's a problem, whether you have the

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<v Speaker 3>problem or somebody else has the problem. And so there's

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<v Speaker 3>many aspects that I think in statistics we would call

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<v Speaker 3>them confounding variables. Basically, it's not the religion that's helping,

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<v Speaker 3>and I think the evidence is pretty clear and showing

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<v Speaker 3>that it's not that it's the social environment that happens

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<v Speaker 3>to be created in a religious institution. I would be

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<v Speaker 3>very interested I told you that they compared non religious

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<v Speaker 3>recovery programs that had a similar structure and found that

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<v Speaker 3>they were just as effective. I'd be curious if they

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<v Speaker 3>looked at things like recovering religious addicts that are not

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<v Speaker 3>necessarily involved in a twelve step program, but maybe are

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<v Speaker 3>trying to do things like pray the addiction away or

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<v Speaker 3>something else that might be a different kind of of

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<v Speaker 3>social setups. So you know, clearly there's more research to

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<v Speaker 3>be done, but the stuff that I've seen so far

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<v Speaker 3>is really indicating that it's a social solution or a

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<v Speaker 3>social species. That's not surprising at all, but there's a

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<v Speaker 3>social solution there, and it's not a divine solution.

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<v Speaker 2>Speaking of solutions, do you men if I add something

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<v Speaker 2>to that please? There are many countries that are a

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<v Speaker 2>lot more secular than the United States, for example Switzerland

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<v Speaker 2>and the Netherlands, and they are using the criminalization as

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<v Speaker 2>a method of dealing with drug addiction with pretty good success.

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<v Speaker 2>They have lower rates of debt by over those because

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<v Speaker 2>they have implemented several programs that reduce harm. Some of

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<v Speaker 2>these programs are like the nelogues on Access and Distribution

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<v Speaker 2>for opiate addiction, supervisee use sites. Those are especially for

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<v Speaker 2>injected drugs like heroine, and then more accessible mental healths

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<v Speaker 2>creen in and treatment programs. Those are also important. In

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<v Speaker 2>the United States, the only place to try the decriminalization

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<v Speaker 2>program was Oregon. They tried it in twenty twenty and

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<v Speaker 2>it worked pretty well, but unfortunately it was during COVID

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<v Speaker 2>and there were some issues that sort of made it

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<v Speaker 2>take a step back, and eventually in twenty twenty two

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<v Speaker 2>they completely repealed that role. So it's no longer up to.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that has a tendency to be more so on

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<v Speaker 1>clinics and other health organizations that are produced that are

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<v Speaker 1>pushing harm reduction programs that would have actually things like

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<v Speaker 1>the data would support that methodology more so then trying

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<v Speaker 1>to be a bit more restricted when it comes to

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<v Speaker 1>like addiction. And I was even going back to I

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<v Speaker 1>was even thinking about those structures that you were talking about, Scott,

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<v Speaker 1>especially that secular programs that mirror some of the things

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<v Speaker 1>that the religious programs does, and I thought that it

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<v Speaker 1>was very interesting that one of those things that was

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<v Speaker 1>encouraged and push is abstinent And I was thinking to myself,

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<v Speaker 1>like why is that the case? And then it kind

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<v Speaker 1>of hit me that you know a lot of times

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<v Speaker 1>that people are taking using any type of like substance

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<v Speaker 1>and they do it in like social activities, right, and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, possibly if you are a person that has

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<v Speaker 1>a tendency to maybe like use with a partner used

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<v Speaker 1>to induce like you know a more uh helped me out,

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<v Speaker 1>guys with the worst that I'm looking for a more

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<v Speaker 1>potent experience when you.

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<v Speaker 4>Are you know, and yeah, we follow us on the

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<v Speaker 4>only thing.

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<v Speaker 5>Exactly you can reach us out right link below, right

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<v Speaker 5>it make sure you give to the patron. But yeah,

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<v Speaker 5>but like oftentimes, like when you're looking at like what

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<v Speaker 5>is the behavior that a person is doing in order

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<v Speaker 5>that's like coupled with you know, substance use, it could

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<v Speaker 5>be like, hey, well let's see if we can kind

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<v Speaker 5>of like stop this particular behavior for a while to

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<v Speaker 5>help you get.

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<v Speaker 1>Through your addiction. Right. Yeah, But one of the things

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<v Speaker 1>that drug not necessarily drug, but one of the things

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<v Speaker 1>that harm reduction actually teaches is that even though that

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<v Speaker 1>you may be going through some type of recovery program,

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<v Speaker 1>it doesn't necessarily mean that you are completely cured per

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<v Speaker 1>se of addiction. Your addiction is still there. You just

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<v Speaker 1>learn how to manage it, right, And I think that

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<v Speaker 1>that's one of the things that a lot of times

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<v Speaker 1>that when you're looking at people like the sheriff in

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<v Speaker 1>Mississippi saying, well, all you need is Jesus and just pray,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, pray the addiction away, and Jesus will come

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<v Speaker 1>in into your heart and do things to you. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>that's that after dark type stuff, guys, then you're you're fine, right,

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<v Speaker 1>But the problem is is that you are still your

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<v Speaker 1>your your addiction is still there. It's just that you

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<v Speaker 1>just found a way to kind of like cover it,

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<v Speaker 1>placate it, kind of move the goalpost a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>away from it because you're focused more on Jesus than

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<v Speaker 1>actually doing you know, other things. I'm curious to know,

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<v Speaker 1>because I didn't look this up. What is the the

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<v Speaker 1>difference or like the data that says if a person

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<v Speaker 1>actually uses a religious program to deal with their addictions

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<v Speaker 1>versus a secular program, and what is the rate of recidicism?

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<v Speaker 1>Uh with either or I think that would be interesting

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<v Speaker 1>to see. I would I would think that if you

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<v Speaker 1>don't necessarily have like proper tools that are reasonable and

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<v Speaker 1>will liable in reality to deal with things like that,

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<v Speaker 1>that your the success rate wouldn't be as high. You

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<v Speaker 1>know that. That would be my that would be my guess.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's really it's.

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<v Speaker 3>Really tough to compare those kind of things because a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of the success a lot of the data on

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<v Speaker 3>success rates is all self reported, and so they might

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<v Speaker 3>they're have different standards like for many many years, alcoholics

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<v Speaker 3>Anonymous would would report their information, but they would only

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<v Speaker 3>count people that stuck with the program. And that's kind

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<v Speaker 3>of like most of the battle there, isn't it. I Mean,

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<v Speaker 3>if people start using, they're asked to stop, they're asked

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<v Speaker 3>to leave the program, or or you know, they weren't

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<v Speaker 3>being counted. And so so if we want to have

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<v Speaker 3>some kind of systematic approach here, which you know, I

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<v Speaker 3>think would be obviously the wise thing to do, we

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<v Speaker 3>need to have solid data. And in order to have

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<v Speaker 3>that solid data, you need to have have it be

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<v Speaker 3>independent from the organization that is that is being reported on.

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<v Speaker 3>And so yeah, so it's it's a sticky, sticky kind

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<v Speaker 3>of set up there. It's it's tough too. It's tough

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<v Speaker 3>to make wise decisions when you don't have all of

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<v Speaker 3>the information, and it's tough to get all the information

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<v Speaker 3>when it's when it's being clouded by various things.

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<v Speaker 1>Because that data is not objectionable. Yeah, it's not objective, objective,

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<v Speaker 1>object it's not objective. It is objectionable. Actually, yes, yeah, well,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, like I wanted to, like, I guess we

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<v Speaker 1>didn't really get a chance to talk a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>more about authoritarianism when it comes to religion. But I

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<v Speaker 1>think that, you know, one of the things that could

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<v Speaker 1>be a correlation between both articles is this like fear factor, right,

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that both of you all kind of

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<v Speaker 1>alluded to it when it came to Hey, if you

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<v Speaker 1>happen to be in a religious organization where there is

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<v Speaker 1>this very restrictive way that you have to behave in

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<v Speaker 1>order for you to be able to stay in it,

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<v Speaker 1>then of course you're not necessarily going to do certain

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<v Speaker 1>things that like, you know, use drugs or you won't

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<v Speaker 1>have sex before marriage. Maybe you know, because I've been

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<v Speaker 1>in holiness churches where people were doing all types of stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>right right, right, yeah, right.

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<v Speaker 2>I again I.

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<v Speaker 1>Say it's never worked, but I wanted to But I

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<v Speaker 1>know that we just want to wrap up, but I

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<v Speaker 1>want to give you to dislike the last lad, like

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<v Speaker 1>what do you feel and both of you all can

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<v Speaker 1>actually like hit hit on this, like what do you

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<v Speaker 1>feel the role of non religious groups play in countering

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<v Speaker 1>the rise of authoritarianism, whether it be just like in

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<v Speaker 1>a church in our purview as far as like you know,

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<v Speaker 1>us being like you know, part of America, and also

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<v Speaker 1>like impossibilities of you know, recovery programs that are religiously

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<v Speaker 1>Ran Scott, you started Naja, you finished us up.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I think that you know, as far as authoritarianism

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<v Speaker 3>is concerned, you know, there's just tons and tons of

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<v Speaker 3>data showing that there's a very strong link between authoritarian

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<v Speaker 3>attitudes and your political position and your religious position, and

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<v Speaker 3>that conservatism in both religion and politics is indicated by

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<v Speaker 3>you know, a strong authoritarian bent Age had mentioned something

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<v Speaker 3>about how being a conservative Christian can lead you towards authoritarianism.

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<v Speaker 3>Actually the research kind of hints that it's the reverse, right,

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<v Speaker 3>It's the people that have these authoritarian beliefs, things like purity,

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<v Speaker 3>things like loyalty, things like blind obedience and that kind

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<v Speaker 3>of thing, have a tendency to become more conservative politically,

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<v Speaker 3>and more extreme and political and conservative rather religiously. And

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<v Speaker 3>so there's a strong tie there. So you ask what

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<v Speaker 3>role do non religious groups have in dealing with this

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<v Speaker 3>kind of thing. Well, first of all, as far as

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<v Speaker 3>the the addiction treatment is concerned, I think they provide

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<v Speaker 3>viable options. And so then, uh, you know, a judge

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<v Speaker 3>out in the middle of nowhere can't say, well, this

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<v Speaker 3>is the only thing we got. You know, you have

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<v Speaker 3>to do a program and all we have is AA

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<v Speaker 3>and then but then but if there are other options,

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<v Speaker 3>then it just kind of takes that, it takes that

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<v Speaker 3>excuse out of the toolbox there, and so I think

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<v Speaker 3>it provides options. I think the second most important thing,

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<v Speaker 3>uh that the non religious groups would would provide is

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<v Speaker 3>that they give society in general a perspective. They can

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<v Speaker 3>we can show that no, you don't if you want

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<v Speaker 3>to achieve this goal, whether it be you know, breaking

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<v Speaker 3>off your addiction or whatever, you don't necessarily have to

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<v Speaker 3>go down this road. So it gives it gives the

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<v Speaker 3>the the legislators and the leaders one less leveraged to

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<v Speaker 3>push people into that into that nook. And but it

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<v Speaker 3>also gives people one less reason that they feel they

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<v Speaker 3>have to go that direction. And so I think really

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<v Speaker 3>just option and viability, I think that just makes it

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<v Speaker 3>a huge difference there.

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<v Speaker 2>And what's the you aj Yeah, I think you know,

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<v Speaker 2>in the first article that we read word Sheriff Crook,

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<v Speaker 2>he said that he was calling for harsher punishment for

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<v Speaker 2>addicts and criminals. And I think that that clearly shows

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<v Speaker 2>what Scott just said, these authoritarian figures here, you have

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<v Speaker 2>somebody that isn't even a preacher, right, and he was

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<v Speaker 2>preaching from a position of public authority. He was abused

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<v Speaker 2>in his power. So I think our job in those situations,

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<v Speaker 2>as as secular people, we need to speak up and

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<v Speaker 2>make sure that we callote them accountable. And on the

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<v Speaker 2>other hand, we can also do a little bit more

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<v Speaker 2>to help people understand the root of the issues that

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<v Speaker 2>we are that we're having. You know, in the example

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<v Speaker 2>of addiction, right, we can use a humanist approach and

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<v Speaker 2>help people realize that these are things that are caused

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<v Speaker 2>by psychological trauma and until you deal with that, there

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<v Speaker 2>is no way that you're going to be able to

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<v Speaker 2>use religion in the context to recover. It's still going

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<v Speaker 2>to continue to be there.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I would definitely say, dear viewer, that we will

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<v Speaker 1>continue to be here if you want to watch no

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<v Speaker 1>profits or nonprofits, right, that's the name of the show.