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<v Speaker 1>This podcast is intended for mature audiences. Listener discretion is advised.

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<v Speaker 1>Sitting right next to the main highway through Gilmer, Texas,

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<v Speaker 1>is an old cinder block building nestled in a leafy

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<v Speaker 1>stand of hardwood trees. The building used to be a cafe,

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<v Speaker 1>but it shut down a long time ago, probably before

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<v Speaker 1>most of us were even born. Now, Don Holman, a

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<v Speaker 1>former suspect in the disappearance of Kelly Wilson, lives in

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<v Speaker 1>that same old cafe with his step son Raymond. This summer,

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<v Speaker 1>I pulled up there on a hot and sticky afternoon.

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<v Speaker 1>Don was outside rifling through the trunk of his car.

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<v Speaker 1>He lifted up a couple of grocery bags from Dollar General.

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<v Speaker 1>In't a hand, Nah, I think I got a hill cuddy. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>uh yeah, I'll tink a.

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<v Speaker 2>Cookie I get. Let me get in there and we'll have.

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<v Speaker 3>A folk sir.

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<v Speaker 1>You know I don't say I don't say no thanks

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<v Speaker 1>to too many cookies.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, there's nothing wrong with that.

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<v Speaker 1>Folks who knew Don pretty well say he's never been

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<v Speaker 1>able to move on from the Kelly Wilson case. If

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<v Speaker 1>you get him started, it's all he talks about. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>he was falsely accused of kidnapping and killing a girl

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<v Speaker 1>in a Satanic ritual in the woods outside of town,

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<v Speaker 1>which is the kind of stigma that's hard to shake.

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<v Speaker 1>Gilmer residents who knew Don all their life, people who

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<v Speaker 1>should have known better, really believed he was capable of

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<v Speaker 1>killing Kelly, of killing and eating babies. That's got to

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<v Speaker 1>take a toll. Don and I had been talking for

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<v Speaker 1>a while.

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<v Speaker 5>I want to show you something if you don't mind

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<v Speaker 5>me showings, and I'm gonna show you this.

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<v Speaker 6>I will come up here.

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<v Speaker 7>He'll show you up.

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<v Speaker 1>He led me down a hallway in his house to

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<v Speaker 1>a bedroom filled with paper about to crack.

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<v Speaker 5>Or I want to show you some of the stuff

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<v Speaker 5>that I've done through the years.

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<v Speaker 7>That's my stuff, all about the case?

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<v Speaker 6>Yep, h well do you think that is files?

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<v Speaker 7>Paperwork case?

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<v Speaker 5>You see this right here, that's full of papers.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow.

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<v Speaker 5>Now, if I'd done something wrong, I'll be going.

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<v Speaker 6>I'm getting this ship out of here.

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<v Speaker 8>I'm burning everything.

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<v Speaker 5>I go to Florida, but I ain't to why I

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<v Speaker 5>feel I want. I don't want revenge. I want we

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<v Speaker 5>call it justice.

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<v Speaker 6>Justice.

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<v Speaker 5>But uh, what old Doc Holliday said, you know he goes, No,

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<v Speaker 5>let's get it right. He said he doesn't. He doesn't

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<v Speaker 5>want justice, in wants reparation or something.

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<v Speaker 7>Oh, well, there's retribution.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 5>I want them to have to. I want them to say,

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<v Speaker 5>if we guys said Don listen, I'm sorry.

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<v Speaker 7>I ain't want to hurt him.

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<v Speaker 5>But if you're sorry, didn't you tell him I thought

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<v Speaker 5>he was guilty and and I'm.

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<v Speaker 6>Sorry for it?

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<v Speaker 5>Don't I need some justice after talking and writing all

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<v Speaker 5>this stuff, I need some justice. But it don't mean

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<v Speaker 5>I'm gonna get justice.

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<v Speaker 1>Don's ex, remember her name is Tammy, was also wrongly

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<v Speaker 1>accused of being in the Gilbert Devil cult. She says

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<v Speaker 1>Don's obsession with justice or an apology at the very least,

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<v Speaker 1>is ultimately what drove a wedge between them.

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<v Speaker 4>Me and Don just kind of drew apart.

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<v Speaker 9>And you know, Don dealt with all the stuff one way.

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<v Speaker 4>Don didn't drink.

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<v Speaker 9>Don didn't do any of that stuff ever, but he

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<v Speaker 9>started drinking. And to me, out of everybody, it affected

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<v Speaker 9>Don the worst. I mean, to me, it's made him crazy.

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<v Speaker 9>He would not quit talking about it for at least

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<v Speaker 9>ten y That's why quit hanging out and talking to them,

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<v Speaker 9>Because it's all you want done.

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<v Speaker 4>It's time to move on. It's not going to change.

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<v Speaker 4>We're not going to get any money out.

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<v Speaker 9>Of it, for sure, and you just got to start

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<v Speaker 9>living life and dealing with what God gave us.

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<v Speaker 4>To deal with, you know, and be happy that we're

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<v Speaker 4>not in prison.

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<v Speaker 9>I mean, that's I mean for real, you know, we

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<v Speaker 9>could be dead right now or on death row. That's

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<v Speaker 9>that's serious that I see all these innocent people going

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<v Speaker 9>through that crap around the same era, and I'm like, wow,

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<v Speaker 9>we got off by the skin.

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<v Speaker 4>Of our teeth. It was more of a miracle than

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<v Speaker 4>I even realized.

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<v Speaker 1>Despite their differences, Donna Tammy have remained friends.

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<v Speaker 4>We're still cordial. I've got three other kids since.

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<v Speaker 9>You know, I got remarried and and I bring my

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<v Speaker 9>kids over.

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<v Speaker 4>He's met my kids and we talk and we get along. Okay,

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<v Speaker 4>we're not enemies or anything. I know right now that

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<v Speaker 4>if I needed something, Don would give it to me.

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<v Speaker 4>I could ask him and he would help me. He's sick,

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<v Speaker 4>or I try.

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<v Speaker 9>To call him on his birthday, say hey, it don't

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<v Speaker 9>take long for him get on my nerves and I'm like, okay.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm out. I keep telling people. He wouldn't like this

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<v Speaker 4>man was really was he? Please tell me who's got worse.

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<v Speaker 1>Tammy has been more lucky, putting some emotional distance between

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<v Speaker 1>herself and the Kelly Wilson ordeal. But just like don

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<v Speaker 1>she can't move on. She'd like to. She wants to

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<v Speaker 1>put it all behind her. That's not how the world works.

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<v Speaker 4>After all that this happened, I got remarried and I

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<v Speaker 4>just run.

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<v Speaker 9>And made myself forget about all that crowd. And then

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<v Speaker 9>the craziest thing is after I get a divorce, which

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<v Speaker 9>was ten years.

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<v Speaker 4>Ago, I didn't realize how.

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<v Speaker 9>Hard it was going to be for me to even

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<v Speaker 9>I can't even get a job, you know, a decent job.

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<v Speaker 4>Time I get a decent job, they go do a

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<v Speaker 4>background check. I mean, and I don't get it. I

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<v Speaker 4>know for a fact it's because of this. I don't

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<v Speaker 4>even have a car. I haven't had a car in

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<v Speaker 4>ten years. I mean, I have to walk to work.

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<v Speaker 4>I have to get a job close enough to my

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<v Speaker 4>house just to walk to work and back. It's because

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<v Speaker 4>I can't afford nothing. I can't go to a doctor

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<v Speaker 4>because I don't have no money for a doctor.

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<v Speaker 9>I've had nice job opportunities, and they'll say, well, we're

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<v Speaker 9>going to go to a background check and never hear

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<v Speaker 9>from them.

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<v Speaker 4>This is crazy.

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<v Speaker 9>This should not even be on my record because I'm

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<v Speaker 9>struggling now just to barely make it.

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<v Speaker 4>I had a.

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<v Speaker 9>Great opportunity to go work in a cafeteria at the school.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, to me, that was a great job, you know.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, I would love to be at working a

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<v Speaker 4>cafeteria at a school.

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<v Speaker 9>There was one where they wanted me to take care

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<v Speaker 9>of a bunch of elderly people at an old folks home.

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<v Speaker 9>That was a great opportunity. Turned down on that anyway,

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<v Speaker 9>I quit trying. I mean, I don't even The only

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<v Speaker 9>jobs I can get are.

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<v Speaker 4>Kid jobs, you know what I mean, Like McDonald's.

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<v Speaker 9>I can get a job at any fast food restaurant,

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<v Speaker 9>but I can't get a job anywhere else.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I'm a cook at a gas station right now.

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<v Speaker 9>Yeah, And it's just miserable. I just you know, I

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<v Speaker 9>want a decent job where I can live. I can't

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<v Speaker 9>even take care of myself right now, and it's not.

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<v Speaker 4>Right bas It's like I'm never going to get this

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<v Speaker 4>off my back.

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<v Speaker 1>But no one has had a tougher time than Raymond.

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<v Speaker 1>He was a little boy when his foster parent coerced

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<v Speaker 1>him into accusing his own mom and stepdad of sacrificing

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<v Speaker 1>Kelly Wilson to the devil.

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<v Speaker 9>Raymond's the one you want to talk to about all

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<v Speaker 9>the I mean, he's got the story.

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<v Speaker 4>Maybe I'll give Raymond your number and let me tell you.

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<v Speaker 9>Raymond, that poor baby, I'm not saying he's crazy, but

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<v Speaker 9>you can tell this is suspected him.

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<v Speaker 1>One time was going down the old three hundred that's

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<v Speaker 1>a highway in Gilmer.

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<v Speaker 5>And he busted out crying. He said, I'm so sorry.

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<v Speaker 5>He said, don I'm so sorry that I said somebody.

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<v Speaker 5>But he said they were hurting me. I said, Raymond,

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<v Speaker 5>I'm not mad you. I'm very proud of you. He said, well,

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<v Speaker 5>they were hurting me. He said they told me that

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<v Speaker 5>y'all was not in jail, y'all was with Luther, and

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<v Speaker 5>that y'all didn't even care nothing about him. And I said, no,

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<v Speaker 5>that's not true, Raymond, we was in jail. He said,

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<v Speaker 5>I didn't know that.

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<v Speaker 7>Though, I'd have been so traumatizing.

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<v Speaker 10>It was.

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<v Speaker 5>And man, if you want to get him r all up,

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<v Speaker 5>if he gets talking about it, I had to quiet

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<v Speaker 5>it down. He's gonna throw still and everything. But he

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<v Speaker 5>said he'll he'll get mad, he said, son of a bitches.

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<v Speaker 5>He said, yeah, what did they do to me over there?

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<v Speaker 5>They left me over there and getting abused and everything

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<v Speaker 5>that ain't righting, and they ain't gonna do nothing for

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<v Speaker 5>nobody on and uh.

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<v Speaker 7>Where is he?

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<v Speaker 6>He went?

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<v Speaker 5>Probably off with his brother, uh fishing. But if you

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<v Speaker 5>get him to talking now, he's gonna be pretty radical.

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<v Speaker 6>I'll try to.

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<v Speaker 5>Tell him, said Raymond, Now, don't go ape shits.

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<v Speaker 6>But just because.

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<v Speaker 5>He's not a mean guy.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, look at this house.

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<v Speaker 5>He painted this house from me, and he can put

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<v Speaker 5>down flooring and everything. I mean, you look aware, look

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<v Speaker 5>at that he painted and everything. But when he goes

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<v Speaker 5>into one of them rages, he you think sometime he's

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<v Speaker 5>really for everybody else and he's kind of mad that

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<v Speaker 5>same people we.

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<v Speaker 1>Are who wouldn't be mad. The next time I came

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<v Speaker 1>by Don's place, Raymond was home. He seemed pretty guarded

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<v Speaker 1>at first.

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<v Speaker 2>Honestly, I'm honest with you, I didn't even want to

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<v Speaker 2>talk with you, like I really didn't, uh, Non asked me.

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<v Speaker 2>The other day, he kind of got upset because I

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<v Speaker 2>told him. He said, hey, he wants to come and

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<v Speaker 2>talk with you. I told him I don't have anything

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<v Speaker 2>to say to him.

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<v Speaker 1>Then Raymond started talking and he couldn't stop from imperative entertainment.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm wes Ferguson. This is Deviltown. This is chapter seven

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<v Speaker 1>the Wreckage. To understand what happened in Gilmer, you need

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<v Speaker 1>to understand that all this was going on right in

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<v Speaker 1>the middle of the Satanic Panic, a time when fear

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<v Speaker 1>of devil cults was sweeping the United States. It was

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<v Speaker 1>basically a national witch hunt in the eighties and nineties,

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<v Speaker 1>thousands of lurid cases from coast to coast of so

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<v Speaker 1>called satanic ritual abuse. And the crazy thing is there

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<v Speaker 1>was almost no evidence for any of it. It took

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<v Speaker 1>three factors coming together to create the perfect Satan storm.

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<v Speaker 1>For one thing, people were finally taking child abuse seriously.

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<v Speaker 1>Child abuse was a real problem that had been ignored

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<v Speaker 1>far too long. Second was a revival in evangelical beliefs

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<v Speaker 1>with a big emphasis on the devil. He wasn't just

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<v Speaker 1>a metaphor for the dark side of human nature. Satan

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<v Speaker 1>was real, and if you let your guard down, he

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<v Speaker 1>was coming for you. I remember when I was a

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<v Speaker 1>little kid, a traveling expert gave a talk at our

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<v Speaker 1>Baptist church. The next thing I knew, my he Man

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<v Speaker 1>toys were gone and I couldn't watch the care Bears anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>Those were the devil's playthings. The factor fueling the Satanic

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<v Speaker 1>panic was a controversial practice of psychotherapy called recovered memory therapy.

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<v Speaker 1>The idea behind recovered memories was that you might have

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<v Speaker 1>experienced something so traumatic your brain won't even let you

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<v Speaker 1>think about it. You push it down, leave it buried,

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<v Speaker 1>and the recesses of your subconscious To deal with these

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<v Speaker 1>awful memories, you have to dredge them up. Back in

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<v Speaker 1>ninety four, after all the charges in the Kelly Wilson

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<v Speaker 1>case were dropped, the Texas Attorney General's Office brought in

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<v Speaker 1>a child psychiatrist named Bruce D. Perry. His job sort

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<v Speaker 1>through the mess and try to figure out which of

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<v Speaker 1>the Kirk kids and Raymond had actually been abused and

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<v Speaker 1>which hadn't. It wasn't so easy, and that leads us

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<v Speaker 1>back to holding therapy and Raymond. Despite all the courtroom

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<v Speaker 1>drama that had occurred with the release of the eight suspects,

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<v Speaker 1>including James York Brown and Raymond's mom Tammy and his

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<v Speaker 1>stepdad Dawn. Raymond was still with his foster Barbara Bass.

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<v Speaker 1>She must have truly believed she was helping Raymond to

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<v Speaker 1>recover traumatic memories. Every time she held him down and

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<v Speaker 1>dug her knuckles into his ribs until he told her

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<v Speaker 1>what she wanted to hear. The experience left Raymond so

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<v Speaker 1>scarred he was afraid to go around grown ups at all.

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<v Speaker 1>Then Barbara Bass drove him to Dallas to meet with

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<v Speaker 1>doctor Perry, the child psychiatrist.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't trust Bruce Perry at first. All adults in

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<v Speaker 2>my mind were out to get me. I was like,

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<v Speaker 2>you can't trust any of these people, Like they're all

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<v Speaker 2>gonna try to hurt us. They're lying, they're all like

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<v Speaker 2>something's wrong with them. They're talking about killing people and

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<v Speaker 2>eating them and devils and just like everything that I

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<v Speaker 2>was scared of.

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<v Speaker 1>Raymond didn't really have anything to say to doctor Perry,

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<v Speaker 1>so they sat down and colored together. Days later, doctor

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<v Speaker 1>Perry showed up at the Bass's place in East Texas.

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<v Speaker 2>Bruce would come by the house he got to where

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<v Speaker 2>he would and call me to his office to talk,

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<v Speaker 2>and he would come out there to the Bass home

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<v Speaker 2>and visit with me. Well, he would always be like,

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<v Speaker 2>on a special occasion, he'd always bring me something like

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<v Speaker 2>pair of boxing gloves or a basketball or baseball and

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<v Speaker 2>a glove and a mint, you know, play catch. He

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<v Speaker 2>would never ask me questions about my parents and stuff

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<v Speaker 2>like that. It was just on a you know, hey man,

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<v Speaker 2>I came back to see you. How are you doing today?

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<v Speaker 2>So it took a while, but he told me, he said, Raymond,

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<v Speaker 2>he said, when I met you, he said, I knew

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<v Speaker 2>that you didn't trust He said, I knew that you

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<v Speaker 2>were scared of adults and didn't trust adults. He said,

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know why, because he didn't know I was

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<v Speaker 2>being amused by Barbara basket person. But he said, then

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<v Speaker 2>I started seeing how Barbara acted when I was at

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<v Speaker 2>the home, he said. I'd see her in my office.

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<v Speaker 2>I seen how she presented herself with the kids. You

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<v Speaker 2>know y'all, he said. But then when i'd pop up

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<v Speaker 2>in on y'all at the high he said, I've seen

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<v Speaker 2>how the other kids were reacted to her, how they

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<v Speaker 2>reacted to me.

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<v Speaker 1>Barbara had the Kirk kids and Raymond so trained up

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<v Speaker 1>they would spout off the answers they thought adults wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to hear. Doctor Perry came up with a clever way

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<v Speaker 1>to get to the truth.

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<v Speaker 2>And he basically tricked me. And what he did is

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<v Speaker 2>he brought a device that it was a heart monitor.

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<v Speaker 2>It was like a vest and it had a watch,

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<v Speaker 2>and he would wear the watch and it would tell

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<v Speaker 2>my heart rate. And he knew when I got nervous

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<v Speaker 2>about things, that my heart rate going up and down.

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<v Speaker 1>So with Raymond wearing a heart monitor, doctor Perry asked

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<v Speaker 1>him questions about Kelly Wilson and the abuse allegations. As

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<v Speaker 1>Raymond launched into the gruesome story he thought doctor Perry

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to hear. His heart rate stayed the same, He

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't traumatized at all. Then doctor Perry asked Raymond about

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<v Speaker 1>Barbara Bass holding him down and rubbing his ribs. That's

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<v Speaker 1>when Raymond's heart rate spiked. That's what had traumatized him,

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<v Speaker 1>not a fanciful story about sacrificing babies.

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<v Speaker 2>That was the day that I had told him that

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<v Speaker 2>Barbara Bass, you know, about the holding technique and what

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<v Speaker 2>she had been doing, because until then I hadn't told

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<v Speaker 2>all these other doctors and you know, I'd only told

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<v Speaker 2>those foster parents that my first foster parents and and Gore,

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00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:21.840
<v Speaker 2>they were the only people that I had told that

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00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:24.559
<v Speaker 2>Barbara Bass was doing this. So I won't like, like

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00:16:24.600 --> 00:16:26.480
<v Speaker 2>when they, you know, the Basses would take us out

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00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:28.679
<v Speaker 2>with somebody else, I wouldn't tell them, like, hey man,

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00:16:28.720 --> 00:16:31.320
<v Speaker 2>this lady's like all of us kids are getting like

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00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:33.720
<v Speaker 2>messed up by this lady. Like, you know, like because

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know who was with who, like and I was,

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<v Speaker 2>I was terrified of Barbara Bass. Like I still don't

312
00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:43.879
<v Speaker 2>like wearing seat belts, I don't like hogs, I don't

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00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:49.679
<v Speaker 2>like things around my rib cage like. But Bruce Perry, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>he ended up being like somebody I hold high regards,

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<v Speaker 2>like in my mind as far as respect because he uh,

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<v Speaker 2>pretty much he's the reason that we got out of

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<v Speaker 2>that home.

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<v Speaker 1>Doctor Perry decided that Raymond needed a change of scenery.

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<v Speaker 1>The whole time he'd been living in Barbara Bass's house,

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<v Speaker 1>Raymond had been with his little brother Luther.

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<v Speaker 2>That was one of the last things my mom has

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<v Speaker 2>told me. She said, you know, you take care of

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<v Speaker 2>your baby brother, right, And so when I was at

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<v Speaker 2>the Bass home, I was real over protective over eat

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00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:24.920
<v Speaker 2>because he was still a baby. And so when the

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<v Speaker 2>other kids would go to pick on him or went

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, let him have his way, I was

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00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:33.480
<v Speaker 2>always you know, they're like real defensive over room. And

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<v Speaker 2>then one day they ended up they separated us. They

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<v Speaker 2>they took us to Tyler to go see my mom.

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<v Speaker 2>Point I won't allowed to see don anymore. And then uh,

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<v Speaker 2>they told Barbara Bass they were taking all us kids

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<v Speaker 2>to like Burger King, and then uh, they took me

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<v Speaker 2>and drove me out to Waco.

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<v Speaker 1>Te Raymond was taken to a Methodist children's home in Waco.

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<v Speaker 2>Met a kid there and he told me, he said, Raymond,

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<v Speaker 2>he said, I don't know what all you've been through,

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00:18:09.279 --> 00:18:12.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, he said, but uh, once you get to

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00:18:12.519 --> 00:18:15.960
<v Speaker 2>this home, you don't get to go home, like you know,

340
00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:18.799
<v Speaker 2>like everybody here, like we don't get to see our

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<v Speaker 2>parents no more, like you know, we're here till we're eighteen,

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<v Speaker 2>or we get adopted or something.

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<v Speaker 1>Believing he had no chance of being reunited with his mom, stepdad,

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<v Speaker 1>and baby brother, Raymond lost hope. He started getting in trouble.

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<v Speaker 1>His caregivers sent him down the hill to a facility

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<v Speaker 1>for the bad kids.

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<v Speaker 2>And when I was down down that hill they had

348
00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:44.519
<v Speaker 2>that was like for all the troublemakers in that home.

349
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<v Speaker 2>And I was the youngest one down there. They were

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<v Speaker 2>all like sixteen seventeen, most of them because they were

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<v Speaker 2>the bad kids, you know. And uh so I picked

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<v Speaker 2>up a lot of bad habits from those kids. They're

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<v Speaker 2>huffing glue and all kinds of crazy stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Raymond was just eight years old, and probably he struck

355
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:06.319
<v Speaker 1>up a friendship with a boy of sixteen, and that

356
00:19:06.440 --> 00:19:08.640
<v Speaker 1>kid had a plan to break out.

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<v Speaker 8>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>He was like, look, he said, when we go to school,

359
00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:14.319
<v Speaker 2>he said, uh, act up in school. And he said,

360
00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:16.720
<v Speaker 2>they're gonna send us back here to our dorm rooms.

361
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:19.119
<v Speaker 2>He said, when they bring us to lunch, he said,

362
00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:21.039
<v Speaker 2>we're gonna take our food and put it in bags.

363
00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:23.799
<v Speaker 2>And he said, we're already gonna have our clothes packed up.

364
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<v Speaker 2>And he said, I know how to get us out

365
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<v Speaker 2>of here. He throw that fire exinger fro through the

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<v Speaker 2>window and we ran out and hid from him. It

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<v Speaker 2>was a big property and we ran into the night.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it got dark, and I think finally like

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<v Speaker 2>a security guard spotlighted me. I was along the fence line,

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<v Speaker 2>and I couldn't climb the chain link fence like I

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00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:48.400
<v Speaker 2>was eight years old, you know. And the kid I

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<v Speaker 2>was with jumped the border fence and took off. They

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<v Speaker 2>ended up catching him like an hour or two later.

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<v Speaker 1>After Raymond's ill fated escape attempt, he was sent to

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<v Speaker 1>another place, a boys ranch. Raymond had spent two years

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<v Speaker 1>in foster care. One day, an associate of Raymond's old friend,

377
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<v Speaker 1>doctor Bruce Perry, the child's psychiatrist, came to visit Raymond

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<v Speaker 1>at the ranch.

379
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<v Speaker 2>Bill Baker came to see me one day and he said, Raymond,

380
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<v Speaker 2>you want to come take a walk with me? And

381
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<v Speaker 2>I said yeah, And I started walking with him and

382
00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:23.839
<v Speaker 2>we were talking be out there. They had ponds and stuff,

383
00:20:24.680 --> 00:20:27.400
<v Speaker 2>and he stopped over there by the pond and he

384
00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:28.839
<v Speaker 2>looked at him and said, Raymond, I want to ask

385
00:20:28.839 --> 00:20:32.039
<v Speaker 2>you something. He said, I'm serious, and I said what

386
00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:35.079
<v Speaker 2>He said, You want to go home to your mama.

387
00:20:37.720 --> 00:20:40.480
<v Speaker 2>And I remember I started crying and I was like, yeah,

388
00:20:40.519 --> 00:20:44.039
<v Speaker 2>I want to go home. And it took him about

389
00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:47.240
<v Speaker 2>a week or two later and they drove me here

390
00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:51.279
<v Speaker 2>to the Yamborie grounds here in Gilmer and dropped me

391
00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:53.200
<v Speaker 2>off with my mom. They were like, here you go,

392
00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:59.200
<v Speaker 2>like and like all my aunts and uncles were there,

393
00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:01.640
<v Speaker 2>and that was the first time I'd seen them in years,

394
00:21:02.200 --> 00:21:04.160
<v Speaker 2>so I was like, it was just like real exciting.

395
00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:07.799
<v Speaker 2>And then uh, and then later on that night I

396
00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:09.880
<v Speaker 2>got to you know, we stopped by here and Luther

397
00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:14.319
<v Speaker 2>and Don were here at the house, like Don's mother

398
00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:22.160
<v Speaker 2>was here, So that was like, it was a good day.

399
00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:27.000
<v Speaker 9>I got up Luther back first, and then Raymond was

400
00:21:27.039 --> 00:21:29.960
<v Speaker 9>like six months later, I guess, and they bought him

401
00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:33.000
<v Speaker 9>a bedroom suit apiece, and that was it.

402
00:21:37.400 --> 00:21:41.160
<v Speaker 4>Sorry, we screwed up your kids. Our bad We screwed

403
00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:43.359
<v Speaker 4>your kids up. Here you go figure it out.

404
00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:46.200
<v Speaker 9>You won't be able to get a job anywhere, won't

405
00:21:46.200 --> 00:21:47.759
<v Speaker 9>be able to do anything with your life, but.

406
00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:48.279
<v Speaker 4>Here you go.

407
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<v Speaker 1>Although Don was there to greet Raymond on the day

408
00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:54.640
<v Speaker 1>he got out of foster care, Don and Tammy were

409
00:21:54.680 --> 00:21:58.519
<v Speaker 1>no longer a couple. The family Raymond remembered was no more.

410
00:22:00.039 --> 00:22:04.799
<v Speaker 2>After all this was over. It really wasn't over because

411
00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:09.680
<v Speaker 2>when I came home, my mom and Don had already

412
00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:21.640
<v Speaker 2>split up. Me and my mom bounced around. So just

413
00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:25.200
<v Speaker 2>give me a different outlook on things. Put me on

414
00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:30.359
<v Speaker 2>like a don't trust authority type thing when I was

415
00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:32.240
<v Speaker 2>in school. I remember when I came home. The day

416
00:22:32.279 --> 00:22:37.839
<v Speaker 2>I came home, I can remember like telling myself, I

417
00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:43.440
<v Speaker 2>don't care whatever happens from this day forwards, because by

418
00:22:43.480 --> 00:22:46.400
<v Speaker 2>the time I came home, I never thought I was

419
00:22:46.440 --> 00:22:53.400
<v Speaker 2>going to see them again. So when they brought me home,

420
00:22:54.440 --> 00:22:58.640
<v Speaker 2>that was like it was like the best day, you

421
00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:02.680
<v Speaker 2>know what I mean. Like in my mind, I'm thinking,

422
00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:07.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't care. What if I never achieve a goal

423
00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:10.440
<v Speaker 2>in my life or graduate high school or you know

424
00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:12.839
<v Speaker 2>the things that when you're a kid, like that's what

425
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:14.720
<v Speaker 2>in your mind, you're like, Oh, when I grow up,

426
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:17.119
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to be this. I felt like all my

427
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:21.920
<v Speaker 2>prayers had minute. I got to come home, but it

428
00:23:21.960 --> 00:23:24.319
<v Speaker 2>really won't like come home and you think you're going

429
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:28.440
<v Speaker 2>right back to your home, and I didn't. You know,

430
00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:32.480
<v Speaker 2>don took custody of Luther, my mom had custody of me.

431
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:38.480
<v Speaker 2>We were all together, but we won't together. And I

432
00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:40.759
<v Speaker 2>remember like having to carry that guilt with me for

433
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:43.119
<v Speaker 2>a while, which I already had feeling like I broke

434
00:23:43.200 --> 00:23:48.279
<v Speaker 2>my family apart and going through all.

435
00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:52.480
<v Speaker 1>This despite their reassurances. Raymond couldn't shake the feeling that

436
00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:56.079
<v Speaker 1>Donna and Tammy resented him for his role in their arrests.

437
00:23:56.799 --> 00:23:58.599
<v Speaker 2>They were sitting there in jail. I'm sure they were

438
00:23:58.599 --> 00:24:00.799
<v Speaker 2>probably sitting there at times and thinking, what in the

439
00:24:00.839 --> 00:24:04.559
<v Speaker 2>hell is Raymond talking about? Why would he why would

440
00:24:04.599 --> 00:24:07.119
<v Speaker 2>his little ass be out in there fucking lying on us? Like,

441
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:10.440
<v Speaker 2>because that's how I would feel. It gives you a

442
00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:13.720
<v Speaker 2>different perspective of it.

443
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:14.440
<v Speaker 7>I guess.

444
00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:19.000
<v Speaker 11>I just think that every kid in your shoes would

445
00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:22.960
<v Speaker 11>have done the same thing. I think that's just I mean,

446
00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:25.240
<v Speaker 11>it's happened again and again. You know what if you

447
00:24:26.720 --> 00:24:31.039
<v Speaker 11>for worse torture, you know, a kid, the kids eventually,

448
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:33.599
<v Speaker 11>just every kid is going to tell the adult what

449
00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:34.279
<v Speaker 11>they want to hear.

450
00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:37.400
<v Speaker 7>You know, it's not it's not you.

451
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:42.519
<v Speaker 2>It's all children and adults too. Adults when they were

452
00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:46.480
<v Speaker 2>waterboarding them guys over there at uh Anamo Bay, when

453
00:24:46.480 --> 00:24:50.240
<v Speaker 2>they were over there waterboarding them Muslims. Not all that

454
00:24:50.279 --> 00:24:54.799
<v Speaker 2>intel is a Bible like they know that. Like so

455
00:24:55.960 --> 00:24:59.119
<v Speaker 2>like it gives you a different view on things. Like

456
00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:02.079
<v Speaker 2>I said, it's just a bit trust issue thing. So

457
00:25:02.279 --> 00:25:07.440
<v Speaker 2>from seven years old, my head's been full of double

458
00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:15.960
<v Speaker 2>worshiping killers, cannibalism, sexual misconduct. I was submerged in that

459
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:19.400
<v Speaker 2>type of atmosphere. People they just want to go off

460
00:25:19.440 --> 00:25:22.519
<v Speaker 2>and tell off what they hear. So trust is like

461
00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:25.200
<v Speaker 2>a big issue with me because i had trust broken

462
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:27.880
<v Speaker 2>at a very early age, and I've seen how the

463
00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:30.559
<v Speaker 2>system could be corrupt, and I think, you know, like

464
00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:32.759
<v Speaker 2>sometimes I think about it and I'm like, what if

465
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:35.799
<v Speaker 2>Barbara Bass really did have good intentions even though I

466
00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:38.319
<v Speaker 2>was their first hand and seeing the fucked up side

467
00:25:38.359 --> 00:25:40.599
<v Speaker 2>of it. But like in the back of my mind,

468
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:42.759
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, well, maybe, you know, maybe it was just

469
00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:44.400
<v Speaker 2>something that kind of like, you know, one thing led

470
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:45.960
<v Speaker 2>to another, led to another, lad to another.

471
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.960
<v Speaker 9>It was this chain of events, and when he first

472
00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:52.640
<v Speaker 9>came home from foster care, he had a love for her.

473
00:25:52.920 --> 00:25:54.400
<v Speaker 4>I don't know if they call it stockson.

474
00:25:55.119 --> 00:25:58.319
<v Speaker 1>That's Raymond's mom, Tammy, talking about his conflicted feelings for

475
00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:02.799
<v Speaker 1>Barbara Bass. Stockholm syndrome is where hostages form emotional bonds

476
00:26:02.799 --> 00:26:03.640
<v Speaker 1>with their captors.

477
00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:07.680
<v Speaker 9>You know, I'd get so angry, you know, but I

478
00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:10.480
<v Speaker 9>knew it was his faults, and I just I don't

479
00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:12.480
<v Speaker 9>know how long it took it took him to get

480
00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:15.400
<v Speaker 9>over that, But you know, maybe a year or so

481
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:19.079
<v Speaker 9>he got you know, the hatred of them started coming

482
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:21.440
<v Speaker 9>out little by little, and.

483
00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:25.680
<v Speaker 2>Then part of me goes, well, what if it was

484
00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:28.920
<v Speaker 2>all like some kind of big scam. You think about

485
00:26:29.000 --> 00:26:32.359
<v Speaker 2>every scenario. When there's a question mark and you don't

486
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:35.279
<v Speaker 2>know the answer, you start putting anything in there for

487
00:26:35.359 --> 00:26:39.799
<v Speaker 2>an answer, to see what fits. Affects everything I'm uh,

488
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:45.119
<v Speaker 2>the way I interact with people, just everything I'm really

489
00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:47.519
<v Speaker 2>It's affected my life a lot. I don't I don't

490
00:26:47.519 --> 00:26:51.279
<v Speaker 2>care for strangers. I like I like being around big

491
00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:54.680
<v Speaker 2>like crowds, but I didn't finish high school. Driving down

492
00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:57.759
<v Speaker 2>the street going to work, somebody on the side of

493
00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:02.119
<v Speaker 2>the street stranded, I don't want to stop. I don't

494
00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:05.240
<v Speaker 2>want to be that person to involve myself. I want

495
00:27:05.319 --> 00:27:08.119
<v Speaker 2>to stop. I want to pull over and get out

496
00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:10.000
<v Speaker 2>and say, hey, man, are y'all all right? Y'all need

497
00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:12.119
<v Speaker 2>to use a cell phone? You need some waters? I

498
00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:14.200
<v Speaker 2>got back here in the truck. Can I give you

499
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:17.839
<v Speaker 2>a ride into town? But I never stopped for him

500
00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:22.000
<v Speaker 2>because I don't want to be involved in anybody, you

501
00:27:22.039 --> 00:27:23.720
<v Speaker 2>know that's outside of my circle.

502
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:29.480
<v Speaker 1>I left my conversation with Raymond feeling just so sad

503
00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:43.000
<v Speaker 1>he's a broken man. When all the charges were dropped

504
00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:45.680
<v Speaker 1>in the Kelly Wilson case, Folks and Gilmert were left

505
00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:48.319
<v Speaker 1>to sort through the wreckage. Scott Leefford went back to

506
00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:53.279
<v Speaker 1>private practice. Caseworkers A Gore and Debbie Minshew resigned from CPS.

507
00:27:53.799 --> 00:27:56.960
<v Speaker 1>Connie Martin, the one time witness, moved down to Special

508
00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:01.720
<v Speaker 1>Investigator Brooks Flags Christian Retreat in Louise. This place called

509
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:05.519
<v Speaker 1>the Shepherd's Rest. A local news reporter tracked down Connie

510
00:28:05.519 --> 00:28:08.640
<v Speaker 1>at the Shepherd's Rest and East Texans were in for

511
00:28:08.759 --> 00:28:09.839
<v Speaker 1>yet another shock.

512
00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:13.559
<v Speaker 12>Martin asked to be interviewed without Flag present. She said

513
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:15.240
<v Speaker 12>she had something important to say.

514
00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:17.440
<v Speaker 3>I'll just come out and tell you what it is.

515
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:20.240
<v Speaker 3>Because the Kelly Wilson thing is not true.

516
00:28:20.839 --> 00:28:24.079
<v Speaker 12>Martin says she was coerced into confessing to taking part

517
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:27.960
<v Speaker 12>in Kelly Wilson's murder and tricked into leveling murder accusations

518
00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:31.599
<v Speaker 12>against other family members and friends along with Gilmour police

519
00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:32.759
<v Speaker 12>sergeant James Brown.

520
00:28:33.559 --> 00:28:37.480
<v Speaker 3>They's practically tell me what was said, and I would

521
00:28:37.519 --> 00:28:39.440
<v Speaker 3>say that it didn't happen. They'd say yes it did,

522
00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:43.519
<v Speaker 3>and I would say no, it didn't. I keep pressure

523
00:28:43.519 --> 00:28:46.319
<v Speaker 3>me and say, no, I know what did happen.

524
00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:49.680
<v Speaker 1>Brooks Flag had a lot to worry about, as did

525
00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:53.079
<v Speaker 1>the other members of the special prosecutors team. Shane Phelps,

526
00:28:53.119 --> 00:28:55.880
<v Speaker 1>the Assistant Attorney General for the State of Texas, was

527
00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:59.799
<v Speaker 1>threatening to turn the tables and file criminal charges against them.

528
00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:02.279
<v Speaker 1>Here's Shane, And.

529
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:07.119
<v Speaker 6>Ultimately I subpeeded all of them to the grand jury

530
00:29:07.160 --> 00:29:09.440
<v Speaker 6>and told them that they were targets of the grand

531
00:29:09.480 --> 00:29:13.240
<v Speaker 6>jury because I was seriously contemplating and dining them for

532
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:17.279
<v Speaker 6>official oppression because it was so wrong what they did.

533
00:29:17.640 --> 00:29:18.920
<v Speaker 7>So I didn't do that one.

534
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:25.319
<v Speaker 6>Because this had been this whole satanic nonsense, had been

535
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:29.880
<v Speaker 6>such a distraction that nobody was devoting any resources to

536
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:35.759
<v Speaker 6>finding Kelly Wilson. It was nobody. I knew that if

537
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:37.920
<v Speaker 6>I had indicted them, and I could have indited it,

538
00:29:38.440 --> 00:29:40.519
<v Speaker 6>and I could have convicted it. There's no question in

539
00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:43.759
<v Speaker 6>my mind that if I had done that, then that

540
00:29:43.880 --> 00:29:45.920
<v Speaker 6>would have been the story. That's what people would have

541
00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:48.640
<v Speaker 6>been talking about. That's where all of our resources would

542
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:50.920
<v Speaker 6>have been devoted. And I didn't want that. I wanted to

543
00:29:50.960 --> 00:29:53.079
<v Speaker 6>see if we could find Kelly Wilson and get some

544
00:29:53.160 --> 00:29:57.519
<v Speaker 6>answers for the parents. So I made the decision not to.

545
00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:01.359
<v Speaker 6>I've gone back and forth over the years. I guess

546
00:30:01.400 --> 00:30:04.799
<v Speaker 6>it was so outrageous. It would have been a good

547
00:30:04.880 --> 00:30:08.119
<v Speaker 6>thing for I think everything to have been aired in

548
00:30:08.200 --> 00:30:10.759
<v Speaker 6>court so the public could have seen what an operation

549
00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:14.440
<v Speaker 6>this investigation was, and they would have been as angry

550
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:16.920
<v Speaker 6>as that was, because we could have put experts on

551
00:30:16.920 --> 00:30:20.039
<v Speaker 6>the stand about interrogation techniques, and there's not a single

552
00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:23.559
<v Speaker 6>person with any kind of expertise in police interrogation tactics

553
00:30:23.559 --> 00:30:28.920
<v Speaker 6>who would not have said that was so far beyond acceptable.

554
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:33.720
<v Speaker 1>The Lifeer team had narrowly avoided criminal prosecution. James Brown

555
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:36.880
<v Speaker 1>tried a different tack. Just two months after the charges

556
00:30:36.920 --> 00:30:40.079
<v Speaker 1>against Sergeant Brown were dropped, he filed a civil lawsuit

557
00:30:40.119 --> 00:30:43.640
<v Speaker 1>against Special Prosecutor Scott Leifford and the members of the team,

558
00:30:43.799 --> 00:30:47.519
<v Speaker 1>alleging malicious prosecution. James Brown told the news media that

559
00:30:47.599 --> 00:30:51.319
<v Speaker 1>Gilmer residents were shunning him in the streets. His reputation

560
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:52.839
<v Speaker 1>was destroyed.

561
00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:55.400
<v Speaker 8>I always thought Jians was sort of a black and

562
00:30:55.440 --> 00:30:58.319
<v Speaker 8>white kind of guy, but not a whold on a

563
00:30:58.359 --> 00:31:04.519
<v Speaker 8>gray Keith Fields betrayed by the justice system, not only

564
00:31:04.599 --> 00:31:08.200
<v Speaker 8>with what happened with the accusation but then what happened

565
00:31:08.240 --> 00:31:13.000
<v Speaker 8>when he tried to go redress what had happened in

566
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:14.000
<v Speaker 8>his civil lawsuit.

567
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:16.359
<v Speaker 1>This is James Brown's attorney, David Moore.

568
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:22.279
<v Speaker 8>When the charges were dismissed, we filed, along with Andy Tyndall,

569
00:31:23.559 --> 00:31:29.240
<v Speaker 8>lawyer over in Tyler, a civil rights lawsuit against Lafford's

570
00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:35.839
<v Speaker 8>law firm, Bag's Flag, Gore Minshew, and the court reached

571
00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:40.359
<v Speaker 8>the decision that because the Flags and Bag were acting

572
00:31:40.440 --> 00:31:45.519
<v Speaker 8>under the color of law enforcement, that they had qualified immunity,

573
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:50.759
<v Speaker 8>as did Goren Minshew and poured us out in federal

574
00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:55.599
<v Speaker 8>court saying that we can get over the qualified immunity hump,

575
00:31:56.440 --> 00:31:59.559
<v Speaker 8>I think we did. You know, I disagree with the

576
00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:04.839
<v Speaker 8>judge's decision in that deal. But yeah, it's just it's

577
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:06.799
<v Speaker 8>just a shame, just a shame.

578
00:32:07.240 --> 00:32:08.200
<v Speaker 1>Here's James Brown.

579
00:32:08.519 --> 00:32:11.160
<v Speaker 10>That's what can be done to them.

580
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:12.400
<v Speaker 8>They're wrongdoings.

581
00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:20.599
<v Speaker 10>Being held accountable, they slip through the cracks, you know.

582
00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:24.799
<v Speaker 10>So it's like old opening Pandora's box on the justice

583
00:32:24.839 --> 00:32:28.559
<v Speaker 10>system if they are held accountable, and they don't want

584
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:29.000
<v Speaker 10>to do that.

585
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:32.880
<v Speaker 7>And that's the sad part about it.

586
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:38.839
<v Speaker 13>And my feelings are, you know, like I said, they

587
00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:44.079
<v Speaker 13>should have done something to those people. But the way

588
00:32:44.200 --> 00:32:48.599
<v Speaker 13>the system is set up, they have immunity to certain things.

589
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:51.039
<v Speaker 13>You know, no matter if they lie.

590
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:56.720
<v Speaker 10>Or falsify stuff for hurt people, they don't care and

591
00:32:56.759 --> 00:32:59.640
<v Speaker 10>they go on about their little lives. And I don't

592
00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:03.440
<v Speaker 10>believe that that's the way the justice system was set up.

593
00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:03.920
<v Speaker 8>The beach.

594
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:10.640
<v Speaker 10>I believe that you tail the truth, and the truth

595
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:11.359
<v Speaker 10>is the truth.

596
00:33:14.359 --> 00:33:16.240
<v Speaker 7>And I've always believed that.

597
00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:22.799
<v Speaker 14>How big of a problem is qualified immunity in protecting

598
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:23.680
<v Speaker 14>bad actors.

599
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:26.480
<v Speaker 8>I think it's a huge problem. And you know, you

600
00:33:26.519 --> 00:33:31.759
<v Speaker 8>see a lot of discussions about on the federal level

601
00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:40.319
<v Speaker 8>of removing that qualified immunity that cops have to lawsuits.

602
00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:44.759
<v Speaker 14>One thing that really shocked me talking to the boy

603
00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:49.640
<v Speaker 14>who was subjected to the holding technique, Raymond is long.

604
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:52.599
<v Speaker 7>Tammy said, So she.

605
00:33:54.519 --> 00:33:58.960
<v Speaker 14>Thirty years later, still can't get a decent job, can't

606
00:33:58.960 --> 00:33:59.559
<v Speaker 14>afford car.

607
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:02.880
<v Speaker 7>She walks from her apartment where she rents.

608
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:05.559
<v Speaker 14>A room, to the nearest gas station and just runs

609
00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:06.799
<v Speaker 14>the deep fryer every day.

610
00:34:08.280 --> 00:34:10.440
<v Speaker 7>And she, you know, every time she applies for a job,

611
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:11.159
<v Speaker 7>like even.

612
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:14.000
<v Speaker 14>To be a lunch lady at the school, is say like, oh,

613
00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:16.159
<v Speaker 14>you're great, you know, like we can't wait to.

614
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:18.119
<v Speaker 7>Work with you. We just have to run a background check.

615
00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:21.960
<v Speaker 14>And then they run the background checks, they find out

616
00:34:21.960 --> 00:34:24.559
<v Speaker 14>that she has these hot molestation charges.

617
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:26.199
<v Speaker 7>She never hears another.

618
00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:28.760
<v Speaker 14>Word from them, So it's really I mean, it's just

619
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:30.679
<v Speaker 14>ruined her life for decades.

620
00:34:34.519 --> 00:34:38.880
<v Speaker 8>Right, it's a stigma that you can't get passed.

621
00:34:41.559 --> 00:34:43.440
<v Speaker 14>I mean, is there anything that can be done for

622
00:34:43.679 --> 00:34:47.320
<v Speaker 14>these people at this point?

623
00:34:49.000 --> 00:34:50.519
<v Speaker 8>I'll tell you what. Next time you talk to her,

624
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:52.079
<v Speaker 8>have her call me. I'll be glad to talk to

625
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:54.840
<v Speaker 8>her and say there's something we can do to help her,

626
00:34:54.880 --> 00:35:00.280
<v Speaker 8>because that ought not be a cloud still following her.

627
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:04.719
<v Speaker 1>Thirty years later, I passed along David's message to Tammy.

628
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:07.360
<v Speaker 1>When she called his law firm, she was told it

629
00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:11.639
<v Speaker 1>would cost six thousand dollars to clear her record, So

630
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:14.599
<v Speaker 1>she'll keep walking to work at the gas station. Some

631
00:35:14.679 --> 00:35:18.840
<v Speaker 1>folks are just too poor for justice. As for Kelly Wilson,

632
00:35:19.360 --> 00:35:23.480
<v Speaker 1>missing since January fifth, nineteen ninety two, she's still out there.

633
00:35:24.440 --> 00:35:27.119
<v Speaker 8>It bugs me, thirty years later what happened. It bugs

634
00:35:27.159 --> 00:35:30.840
<v Speaker 8>me for James's sake and his family. It bugs me

635
00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:35.519
<v Speaker 8>for Kelly's sake and her family because I think I

636
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:38.760
<v Speaker 8>think that they damaged what should have been a real

637
00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:42.119
<v Speaker 8>investigation into her disappearance, and I think it got sidetracked

638
00:35:43.079 --> 00:35:46.519
<v Speaker 8>for years as a result of these with these guys

639
00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:51.079
<v Speaker 8>and gals did and it's just it's a shame. It's

640
00:35:51.079 --> 00:35:51.519
<v Speaker 8>a shame.

641
00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:55.000
<v Speaker 1>Sergeant Brown never returned to the Gilmer Police Force. His

642
00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:58.000
<v Speaker 1>days as a cop were done. He eventually found work

643
00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:01.039
<v Speaker 1>as a prison guard his life. Penny had stood by

644
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:03.760
<v Speaker 1>his side when he was accused of kidnapping and murdering

645
00:36:03.800 --> 00:36:08.480
<v Speaker 1>Kelly Wilson, but the legal ordeal changed him. Here's Penny, Well.

646
00:36:08.280 --> 00:36:18.599
<v Speaker 15>It's pretty much made him feel insecure, angry. He was

647
00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:23.079
<v Speaker 15>a nervous wreck. I think he felt lost, you know,

648
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:28.320
<v Speaker 15>it's just terrible. He was on medication, an I depressant.

649
00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:32.760
<v Speaker 15>He saw a psychiatrist and we both saw a counselor

650
00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:37.039
<v Speaker 15>together to try to deal with all the emotions of

651
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:41.079
<v Speaker 15>what had happened and how it was affecting this. He

652
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:44.000
<v Speaker 15>was on a lot of medication and then he had

653
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:47.079
<v Speaker 15>that many stroke.

654
00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:51.280
<v Speaker 1>Several years after the charges were dropped, James and Penny

655
00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:55.239
<v Speaker 1>Brown got divorced, and as I learned from poking around Gilmer,

656
00:36:55.480 --> 00:36:57.960
<v Speaker 1>a lot of these Texans still believe he's guilty.

657
00:36:58.519 --> 00:37:01.760
<v Speaker 7>That's the bad part of it at all. You know,

658
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:02.800
<v Speaker 7>sometimes people.

659
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:05.440
<v Speaker 10>Want to believe alive and the truth because the truth

660
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:07.039
<v Speaker 10>isn't near as fantastic.

661
00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:10.400
<v Speaker 11>I think it's still like that to this day.

662
00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:12.920
<v Speaker 13>Yeah, they rather believe a lie.

663
00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:18.920
<v Speaker 10>Than believe the truth. You know, that's treating I just

664
00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:23.400
<v Speaker 10>get to the point of not won't even talk about

665
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:29.559
<v Speaker 10>it because it's not about me. It's about Robbie and

666
00:37:29.599 --> 00:37:32.360
<v Speaker 10>his daughter finding hurt.

667
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:35.679
<v Speaker 1>Despite all he's been through and all the time that's

668
00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:39.760
<v Speaker 1>gone by, James Brown still believes Kelly Wilson will be found.

669
00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:43.800
<v Speaker 1>He believes that someday Kelly's parents will have closure.

670
00:37:44.599 --> 00:37:48.599
<v Speaker 10>There's several suspects that are still open. Not everything lies

671
00:37:48.639 --> 00:37:51.119
<v Speaker 10>at one door until you find the final key.

672
00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:51.960
<v Speaker 6>You know.

673
00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:56.199
<v Speaker 10>That's that's more or less objective investigation. You don't draw

674
00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:58.719
<v Speaker 10>a conclusion to one person in see you know for

675
00:37:58.760 --> 00:38:00.440
<v Speaker 10>a fact that person is person.

676
00:38:01.159 --> 00:38:01.880
<v Speaker 8>You know what they say.

677
00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:03.480
<v Speaker 13>Nowadays, there's persons.

678
00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:07.119
<v Speaker 10>Of the interests will in this case, there's Saberle.

679
00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:11.679
<v Speaker 1>Them the case of a missing girl got lost. In

680
00:38:11.719 --> 00:38:16.199
<v Speaker 1>all the hysteria, Kelly is still out there somewhere with

681
00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:19.480
<v Speaker 1>the satanic panic a distant memory. I want to Know

682
00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:25.679
<v Speaker 1>What Really Happened to Kelly Wilson. Deviltown is a production

683
00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:28.440
<v Speaker 1>of Imperative Entertainment. It was written and created by me

684
00:38:28.639 --> 00:38:32.719
<v Speaker 1>Wes Ferguson. Executive producer is Jason Hoak. Audio engineering and

685
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:36.480
<v Speaker 1>editing by Shane Freeman and Jason Hoak. Original score is

686
00:38:36.480 --> 00:38:40.639
<v Speaker 1>by Robert Ellis, recording by Austin Sisler at east Side Studios.

687
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<v Speaker 1>If you like the show, leave a review, and don't

688
00:38:43.159 --> 00:38:45.239
<v Speaker 1>forget to tell your friends thanks for listening.