WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:03.399 Let's not try. Let's try to avoid that. Don't waste 2 00:00:03.439 --> 00:00:05.080 your money on super chest. The way it's going to 3 00:00:05.120 --> 00:00:10.160 be structured is I'll open up the discussion. I'll give 4 00:00:10.199 --> 00:00:12.119 a little introduction to who I am, because this might 5 00:00:12.160 --> 00:00:13.919 go on other people's channels if they want to put 6 00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:15.320 it up. I don't really have a problem with that. 7 00:00:16.559 --> 00:00:19.079 So I'll say who I am and what I do briefly. 8 00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:23.120 I'll let Paul do that, and then I'll start with 9 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:24.719 my stuff. And what we're going to do is an 10 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:26.879 eight minute back and forth, so I'll let him go 11 00:00:26.920 --> 00:00:28.879 eight minutes. I'll go eight minutes, et cetera, et cetera, 12 00:00:28.920 --> 00:00:32.119 back and forth, and then we'll have a kind of 13 00:00:32.119 --> 00:00:36.679 a conversational style exchange and then we'll take the questions. 14 00:00:36.759 --> 00:00:39.960 So we don't have any set time limit, So feel 15 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:43.079 free to ask super Qui supertach questions if you want 16 00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:45.600 to to both of us. Again, keep them civil, let's 17 00:00:45.600 --> 00:00:50.039 not get crazy here. And then if you want to, Paul, 18 00:00:50.119 --> 00:00:52.799 you can go ahead and introduce yourself to my audience 19 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:56.280 and let them know what you do and whatever you're 20 00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:59.119 comfortable saying about your background and where they can find 21 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:08.120 your materials and I'll have all those links below. Hello, right, 22 00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:09.799 can you hear me now? 23 00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:14.760 All right? Hello Ramadagma barak to all my Muslim listeners 24 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:18.519 who are listening in and Solam Mooricum and this Mila 25 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:21.400 Rachamanerakim in the name of God, the most gracious and 26 00:01:21.439 --> 00:01:24.840 most merciful. That's how we begin any action in Islam. 27 00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:28.680 I live in London. I attend because corner regularly. I 28 00:01:28.840 --> 00:01:32.719 was there earlier on today, and I'm well known to 29 00:01:32.760 --> 00:01:35.400 some Muslims in London for dour work. I give talks 30 00:01:35.400 --> 00:01:38.280 at Regent's part Mosque, which is the premier mosque in London. 31 00:01:38.319 --> 00:01:41.439 I think I give talks on and Christianity and so on. 32 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:45.200 I haven an ordinary day job, but I was based 33 00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:49.840 in London, and I'm very grateful to Jay from inviting 34 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:53.319 me on today to have this dialogue, this discussion about 35 00:01:53.319 --> 00:01:56.959 the Trinity and tao Heed. I guess or Trinity in 36 00:01:56.959 --> 00:01:59.560 the Bible we believe as Muslims in in the tow 37 00:01:59.640 --> 00:02:01.879 he the on this of God. But then that is 38 00:02:01.879 --> 00:02:05.519 applicit critique. I guess of other beliefs, but with doubtless 39 00:02:05.519 --> 00:02:07.519 come into that joined me to begin an eight minutes 40 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:09.120 that's much just my intro. Ja. 41 00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:12.919 I just figure we'd do intros because this might go 42 00:02:13.000 --> 00:02:17.159 on other people's channels, and I gave people permission if 43 00:02:17.159 --> 00:02:20.439 they want to do that, And thank you to Lewis 44 00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:22.560 and others that set this up. So this was I 45 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:26.280 didn't set this up. But so I do Jay's Analysis, 46 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:31.599 which is a film philosophy, geopolitics, all over the place 47 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:34.400 kind of analysis. I'm the author of two books on movies, 48 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:38.039 Esoteric Hollywood one and two. I co created the TV 49 00:02:38.080 --> 00:02:41.560 show Hollywood Be Coded. My master's is in English and 50 00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:47.159 lit and philosophy, and I would say that my expertise 51 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:49.919 is in the realm of worldviews. So I do worldview 52 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:54.000 paradigm analysis, and most of my critiques, whether it's Darwinism, 53 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:58.759 whether it's other religious perspectives, or whether it's rom Catholicism 54 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:02.280 or whatever. I might be debating Protestants whoever atheists. My 55 00:03:02.360 --> 00:03:05.000 critique is usually from the philosophic perspective. But I also 56 00:03:05.080 --> 00:03:09.280 have many years in terms of biblical studies, so I 57 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:11.879 come from an Orthodox perspective. So I'll be defending orthodox 58 00:03:11.960 --> 00:03:16.960 Christianity what I believe to be the true expression of Christianity. 59 00:03:18.159 --> 00:03:21.919 And then I will apparently, I'll go ahead and give 60 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:25.840 myself the first eight minutes to start. And before I 61 00:03:25.840 --> 00:03:29.280 started saying I don't profess to be any expert on Islam, 62 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:31.800 I did take college courses that dealt with the history 63 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:33.960 of Islam and the Kuran and so forth. It's been 64 00:03:33.960 --> 00:03:39.080 many years since I've interacted with Islamic thinkers or apologists, 65 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:41.599 maybe ten years, so I'm happy to have this kind 66 00:03:41.639 --> 00:03:44.280 of thing set up. It'll be interesting exchange for me. 67 00:03:45.080 --> 00:03:49.159 In most of the time, I've not been able to 68 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:52.960 find find a Muslim apologist, so I'm glad that that 69 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:56.280 Paul was willing to do it. So I'll start my 70 00:03:56.439 --> 00:03:59.159 timer now. And what I would say is that my 71 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:01.879 first point, and I did have a chance to listen 72 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:05.840 to some of your debates, Paul, I thought you had 73 00:04:05.879 --> 00:04:09.719 some interesting critiques, some of which I haven't heard, a 74 00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:12.919 lot of which I have heard. So the first starting 75 00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:15.400 point I would say is that I think we have 76 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:19.439 a different conception of number one authority, how we know 77 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:23.720 what we know, and how to approach the Biblical texts. 78 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:26.199 I think from your vantage point, what I got in 79 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:28.360 a lot of your debates was that you see the 80 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:35.160 text as a disjunction, a disjointed series of books that 81 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:40.199 Paul kind of is set against Jesus. Paul is set 82 00:04:40.279 --> 00:04:42.519 against the Law and the Old Testament, almost kind of 83 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:44.879 a Lutheran style of reading. I'm not seeing a Lutheran 84 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:47.439 but and it's the kind of analysis that we would 85 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:49.879 see in a lot of higher critics. So I'm very 86 00:04:49.879 --> 00:04:53.240 familiar with the origins of higher criticism, with Julius Bellhausen, 87 00:04:53.360 --> 00:04:56.240 how it developed over time, and how it came to 88 00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:59.839 be the Jesus quest, a lot of the liberal scholarship, 89 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:02.480 the Jesuits and so forth, it kind of got that 90 00:05:02.519 --> 00:05:04.800 going at the turn of the century. And I would 91 00:05:04.800 --> 00:05:08.000 say that this is curious because this is really a 92 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:12.279 new approach to the texts. This is not a historic 93 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:16.040 Islamic approach to the text. Again, not an Islamic expert, 94 00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:18.439 but it seems to be a kind of adopted approach 95 00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:23.519 that many anti Christian apologists have sort of jumped on 96 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:26.399 board with. And the reason I think it's a bit 97 00:05:26.519 --> 00:05:30.600 dubious and maybe ad hoc and in many ways contradictory, 98 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:34.839 is because there's no real way for the textual critic. 99 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:37.920 And I do have some familiarity with this field there's 100 00:05:37.920 --> 00:05:39.920 no real way for the textual critic to know that 101 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:42.199 a lot of the theories that are proposed are true 102 00:05:42.279 --> 00:05:44.519 or not. So it functions on the basis of a 103 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:47.120 lot of presuppositions. I heard you in one of your debates. 104 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:50.399 You spoke of Thomas kun and paradigms. I'm glad you 105 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:53.800 mentioned that, because when I listened to your talks, I 106 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:57.279 heard a lot of shifting notions of how we conceive 107 00:05:57.279 --> 00:06:00.759 of authority within our own paradigms. So for you, there 108 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:03.639 was an attempt many times to appeal to the Bible, 109 00:06:04.079 --> 00:06:06.680 and you would appeal to texts that you believed or 110 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:09.480 at least as I understood you to do in your 111 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:13.079 approach to believe to be authentic. Like this section of 112 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:16.000 what Jesus is saying in this Gospel, he's saying keep 113 00:06:16.040 --> 00:06:21.000 the law. Another section. Oh well, scholar XYZ has shown 114 00:06:21.079 --> 00:06:24.319 us that this section was made up. Now, I don't 115 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:26.480 fault you for trying to do that, because as an 116 00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:29.000 apologist for your religion, that would be what you want 117 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:32.839 to do. You want to show a contradiction in our perspective, 118 00:06:32.839 --> 00:06:35.240 in our paradigm. But what I do is I come 119 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:38.040 at this from the perspective, a holistic view. I believe 120 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:41.959 that from Genesis to the final revelation of the Apocalypse, 121 00:06:42.120 --> 00:06:45.879 it's a holistic text. The text shows an amazing amount 122 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:48.279 of continuity. And in fact, in some of your arguments 123 00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:51.560 where you talked about the dietary laws or things like this, 124 00:06:52.199 --> 00:06:55.680 actually Orthodoxy has a unique, a unique take on this 125 00:06:56.600 --> 00:07:00.680 that is not like Roman Catholicism or aspects of Evensism. 126 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:03.519 So I would actually agree that when Jesus says in 127 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:07.319 Matthew five that we are bound to all of the 128 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:10.279 jocks and tittle of the Torah. In fact, I use 129 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:13.600 this argument quite often. Now, how that plays out and 130 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:16.879 what that means, we don't think is arbitrarily set up 131 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:20.839 by independent higher critics. But in fact, as many of 132 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:23.839 your opponents in your debate said, the historic Church itself. 133 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:26.759 So it's a question again back to authority. When we 134 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:29.920 look at authority and we say, well, that religion teaches X, 135 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:32.959 y Z, and when I take their holy books out 136 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:36.600 of the context of where they reside. So for example, 137 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:40.360 for us, the Bible is not a text that operates 138 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:43.519 abstractly like some kind of rule book per se. That's 139 00:07:43.519 --> 00:07:46.160 one aspect of the text but for us, the Bible 140 00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:50.279 is primarily a liturgical document, so it actually arises out 141 00:07:50.319 --> 00:07:53.199 of what would be read in the services of the church. 142 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:56.480 So you're very focused on the early Church and how 143 00:07:56.519 --> 00:07:59.480 it relates to Judaism. This is also a big focus 144 00:07:59.519 --> 00:08:01.879 of mine as well. And what's interesting is that the 145 00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:07.360 early Church worship, which was in the synagogue, initially birthed 146 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:12.439 the Gentile Church from the synagogue, and then as the 147 00:08:12.519 --> 00:08:15.639 Church spread throughout the Empire, there is all the marks 148 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:18.920 of what we would expect from a church that adopts 149 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:23.160 a temple and synagogal liturgical service that then goes into 150 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:26.759 the gentile world. And the reason I say that is 151 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:29.000 that this is a big part of what I missed 152 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:31.279 in a lot of your debates was the misunderstanding of 153 00:08:31.319 --> 00:08:35.000 the relationship between the period of the first to third centuries. 154 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:37.679 So you seem to have the perspective that maybe some 155 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:40.519 Baptists and Seven day Adventists have, which is that there 156 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:44.279 was this massive corruption of Christianity from the time of 157 00:08:44.759 --> 00:08:49.080 the Apostolic era, and Paul just you know, contrasted with 158 00:08:49.159 --> 00:08:51.720 Jesus and up to the third century in Nicea and 159 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:55.039 maybe after Nicea. You know, it turned into some other 160 00:08:55.159 --> 00:08:58.960 kind of thing, but in actuality myself being somebody who 161 00:08:59.080 --> 00:09:02.879 went down this road, reading extensively for fourteen years the 162 00:09:02.960 --> 00:09:05.519 church fathers in Toto, not every church father, but I 163 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:08.480 have read all of the post Apostolic fathers and most 164 00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:10.559 of the writings of the fathers for the first three centuries, 165 00:09:11.000 --> 00:09:14.600 and what I find is a complete continuity, just off 166 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:16.320 the top of my head. For example, if we read 167 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:19.279 justin Martyr, we find him looking at the Old Testament 168 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:24.159 Theophanes as examples of predictions of the logos to come 169 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:26.639 the Angel of the Lord. This is a big apologetic 170 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:29.799 move that he uses against Tripho the Jew. If we 171 00:09:29.799 --> 00:09:33.519 look at Erineus in Against Heresies, Iraneus has a whole 172 00:09:33.559 --> 00:09:35.879 section after he deals with the Gnostics for the first 173 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:38.960 three books, and again this is one eight. He has 174 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:42.399 an extensive section where he talks about the continuity between 175 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:45.200 the Old and New Testament, and he refutes Marcion somebody 176 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:47.720 that although I'm not saying that you're Marcianite, I did 177 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:51.080 hear you were referencing Ebionites and other heretical groups that 178 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:55.200 were intended to show that that was somehow authentic Christianity. 179 00:09:56.279 --> 00:09:59.759 I don't think that's true, because most of our luminaries 180 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:05.480 of the first three centuries were consistently opposed to those figures. 181 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:09.519 So you're also correct that there were there was a 182 00:10:09.559 --> 00:10:12.279 development of the canon. But how that the fact that 183 00:10:12.279 --> 00:10:15.320 there's a development of the canon would be a problem 184 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:18.279 for Christianity, I'm not sure. Because any religion that has 185 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:21.559 millennia of time going into it, there's going to be 186 00:10:21.639 --> 00:10:24.480 some kind of notion of development. Right So, for example, 187 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:27.200 perhaps it's true that we do not immediately see the 188 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:30.240 totality of the Trinity within the Torah, but that doesn't 189 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:33.879 mean that in the notion of progressive revelation that there 190 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:36.840 won't be more and more and more revealed. For example, 191 00:10:36.879 --> 00:10:41.519 even within Judaism, there's the conception that obviously Jeremiah understood 192 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:45.320 more than Abraham did. Right, So, just because there is 193 00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:50.080 a section of revelation at one period in time that's 194 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:53.320 built on later as profits come, it doesn't mean that 195 00:10:53.399 --> 00:10:58.039 necessarily that the newer revelations are necessary should be pitted 196 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:03.600 against the older or the original. So our presupposition is continuity. 197 00:11:04.039 --> 00:11:05.639 And although I'm sure we won't have time to get 198 00:11:05.639 --> 00:11:07.519 into the totality of that today, I do have a 199 00:11:07.519 --> 00:11:10.720 three hour talk where I went through the totality of 200 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:14.080 where I see continuity between the only New Testaments. And 201 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:16.360 I think that when we look at Paul and Jesus, 202 00:11:16.440 --> 00:11:21.000 we will consistently see not discontinuity, but in fact continuity. 203 00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:23.759 We will see the fact that Jesus in many cases 204 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:26.960 appeals to the law and he says that it is binding, 205 00:11:27.480 --> 00:11:32.360 but he also makes statements later that qualify how that 206 00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:34.320 law will be kept. It is not what goes into 207 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:35.840 the mouth of a man, and not what a man 208 00:11:35.919 --> 00:11:39.080 eats that defiles him in Mark, but what comes out 209 00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:41.919 of his heart. So the fact is Jesus denying the 210 00:11:41.919 --> 00:11:45.200 dietary laws. No, So how do we understand this? Well? 211 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.200 For example, in our Orthodox study Bible, the notes in 212 00:11:48.279 --> 00:11:51.120 Leviticus are excellent because they explain in detail that the 213 00:11:51.159 --> 00:11:54.200 way that the ceremonial laws are kept now are in 214 00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:59.200 a spiritual sense. So that's my first eight minutes, and Paul, 215 00:11:59.240 --> 00:12:03.159 I will let you begin your eight minutes when you're ready. 216 00:12:03.519 --> 00:12:05.240 Okay, can people see me by the way? Am I 217 00:12:05.320 --> 00:12:09.039 visible on the camera? It's invisible. 218 00:12:10.000 --> 00:12:11.799 Let's make sure. Hold on, let's see what the chat's 219 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:13.600 a little like it takes a little bit of. 220 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:17.440 Time to oh I am no, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, 221 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:21.159 it's just okay, that's cool. Thank you for that. 222 00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:21.679 Jay. 223 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:25.639 There's quite a mixed bag of items you brought out there, 224 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:28.360 each of which would take a PhD thesis to discuss 225 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:31.960 earlier in themselves. So I'm just gonna scattergun a bit. 226 00:12:32.519 --> 00:12:36.200 Is my contention that Jesus was not a Trinitarian. It's 227 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:38.759 my contention that Paul did not preach the trinity. The 228 00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:41.440 idea of the three in one, the God being three 229 00:12:41.480 --> 00:12:45.919 persons in one God, is completely absent from the Jewish scriptures. 230 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:48.840 It's not there in Genesis. I would argue, it's not 231 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:51.399 preached by any of the prophets of God, Isaiah, jer Am, 232 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:53.600 I and my card holder, or none of them actually 233 00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:55.879 gives any hint. In fact, the opposite is the case. 234 00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:59.440 They constantly emphasize the oneness of God, that he is unique, 235 00:12:59.519 --> 00:13:01.399 that he is one, that he is the Lord, that 236 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:03.960 he is the God, the Creator, as only he that 237 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:06.279 should be worshiped. We don't get any sense of a 238 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:08.919 three and one at all in the Jewish scriptures. We 239 00:13:08.960 --> 00:13:11.240 don't even get that sense in the New Testament. Although 240 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:13.000 I know Christians, of which I used to be one of. 241 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:14.960 I used to be a Christian apologist, believe it or not, 242 00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:18.279 used to do believe that there are seeds of the 243 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:20.799 Trinity in the New but actually there are some anti 244 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:23.600 seeds as well. There are the many passages of the 245 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:26.159 New Testament which suggests very much the opposite. I'll give 246 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:28.840 you a random one here. Here's Paul talking in one Corinthians, 247 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:32.000 chapter eleven. He's talking about the status of Jesus visa 248 00:13:32.120 --> 00:13:34.559 the God, and I remember Jesus in this past. Sorry, Paul, 249 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:37.600 in this passage is talking about the ascended Jesus, Jesus 250 00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:40.519 who is back in glory with God. So Philippians too 251 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:44.000 doesn't really apply here. It's a very brief throwaway comment 252 00:13:44.039 --> 00:13:46.200 almost that Paul makes. I want you to understand. This 253 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:49.000 is chapter eleven, verse three. I want you to understand 254 00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:50.720 that Christ is the head of every man, and the 255 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:53.279 husband is the head of his wife, and God is 256 00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:56.600 the head of Christ. This is very important because even 257 00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:58.840 in his glorified state, when he's returned to God, he's 258 00:13:58.879 --> 00:14:03.720 being exalted, that he is still not God. That Jesus 259 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:07.519 has a God, and there's no hint here of a trinity, 260 00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:11.480 of course, and there are numerous verses in the Synoptic Gospels, 261 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:14.559 and even in John amazingly that one could bring up 262 00:14:14.600 --> 00:14:18.000 to give a more Islamic feel. See, the more you 263 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:21.759 judaize Jesus, is my argument. The more you judaize Jesus, 264 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:25.519 you put him in his first century context, the more 265 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:29.639 Islamic he sounds. This is the great irony here that 266 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:33.000 Islam is Jesus by Judaism. But what I mean by that, 267 00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:34.840 the concept of God in Islam, the concept of God 268 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:37.000 and Judaism is the same. We have the same concept 269 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:39.159 with God. God is the one God, He is the 270 00:14:39.200 --> 00:14:41.840 provide of the Creator, the sustainer of all things. He 271 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:44.399 alone has the right to be worshiped and invoked, and 272 00:14:44.440 --> 00:14:47.759 so on. There's no three and one business there are 273 00:14:47.799 --> 00:14:50.000 at all in the Koran or in the Jewish script 274 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:52.679 as I have said. And then many pastors in the 275 00:14:52.720 --> 00:14:55.480 Synoptic Gospels the earliest Jesus material we have which seemed 276 00:14:55.480 --> 00:15:00.879 to affirm that unitarian monotheistic understanding. For example, John, chapter ten, 277 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:04.080 verse seventeen, A man comes to Jesus says, good teacher, 278 00:15:04.279 --> 00:15:07.360 what must I do to inherit eternal life, and Jesus 279 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:10.159 says to him, why do you call me good? There 280 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:14.159 is no one good but God alone, very turning away 281 00:15:14.200 --> 00:15:17.639 from seldom towards God. Only God has this attribute of goodness. 282 00:15:17.639 --> 00:15:21.679 And here is a humble Jew if you like, deflecting 283 00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:26.200 this flattery of goodness and say no, no goodness belongs even 284 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:29.679 just to God alone. And Jesus, someone who has betrayed 285 00:15:29.679 --> 00:15:32.080 as a prophet. In Luke's Gospel, for example, he is 286 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:33.879 portray as a prophet of God, which of course is 287 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:37.519 exactly what Islam teaches. He is not portrayed as God incarnate. 288 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:40.120 And in fact, in Matthew, Mark and Luke, if you 289 00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:43.840 look at Matthew and Luke's nativity narratives, Jesus sorry, the 290 00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:47.200 Son is created in the womb of Mary. And if 291 00:15:47.240 --> 00:15:49.200 you look at the Greek and top scholars like Raymond 292 00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:52.840 Brown and Jimmy Dunn and others Joseph Fitzmyer, two of 293 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:54.960 those people, by the way, Catholic priests, one of whom 294 00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:57.399 I heard lecture at Oxford, you'll see that there is 295 00:15:57.480 --> 00:16:00.720 no hint at all of the pre existence of the 296 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:03.440 Sun or pre existence of Jesus at all. In the 297 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:06.600 nativity narratives and the Synoptic Gospels. Obviously there's no nativity 298 00:16:06.679 --> 00:16:09.200 narrative in Mark. We know that only with John. The 299 00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:11.039 last of the gospels to be written, which has the 300 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:15.960 most exalted Christology, is Jesus, the pre existent son. And 301 00:16:16.159 --> 00:16:20.759 scholars have almost university throughout the world, you know Oxford, Cambridge, 302 00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:23.559 the Ivy League universities where you are, you know, Harvard, Yale, etc. 303 00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:26.399 That they have almost all of them have said that 304 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:29.159 if we're looking to the historical Jesus, the Jesus who 305 00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:31.720 walked the streets of Judeo two thousand years ago, we're 306 00:16:31.759 --> 00:16:35.960 looking really at the synoptic portrait of Jesus as a prophet, 307 00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:39.720 as a messiah, as the son of Man. And John's 308 00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:43.480 Gospel or They'll last be written represents are heavily theologized, 309 00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:48.639 a heavily colored account of Jesus, where the author believes 310 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:50.240 that he is the light of the world, so he 311 00:16:50.320 --> 00:16:52.679 puts those words in his mouth. The author believe Jesus 312 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:55.360 the resurrection of the life, so he puts those words 313 00:16:55.399 --> 00:16:57.759 in Jesus' mouth. We're not really dealing with the historical 314 00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:00.679 Jesus at all, so much with the Fourth cost well. 315 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:04.000 Yet that is where the meaty Christology lies with Jesus 316 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:07.599 pre existence. But even in John interestingly, in chapter seventeen, 317 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.839 verse three, Jesus says, this is eternal life. So this 318 00:17:11.880 --> 00:17:16.480 is eternal life, folks, that you believe that they believe 319 00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:21.480 in you, the only true God, and in Jesus Christ, 320 00:17:21.519 --> 00:17:24.680 whom you have sent. So this is clear Jesus distinguishes 321 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:28.799 himself from God here. To believe in to get eternal 322 00:17:28.839 --> 00:17:31.200 life is to believe that you are the only true 323 00:17:31.240 --> 00:17:35.000 God and to believe in Jesus. Now that is an 324 00:17:35.039 --> 00:17:37.480 excellent summary of the Islamic creed when it comes to 325 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:40.039 Jesus to believe in one God and to believe in 326 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:42.839 his Messiah. We were Jews at time, that would be 327 00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:45.759 the Islamic creed. Now, of course, subsequent to that, Mohammed 328 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:48.720 has come, who, unlike Jesus, was sent to all the world, 329 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:53.200 and now we believe in Jesus and Muhammad. So I 330 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:56.000 think scholarship is very much on the understanding that the 331 00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:59.680 historical Jesus did not think that he was Yahweh. That 332 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:03.799 this is as a later development is evolved over years 333 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:07.480 and centuries, and we see that instantiated in the Council, 334 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:09.200 and I see of the Council of Caws and so on. 335 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:11.799 But these are not the statements of Jesus. There are 336 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:15.079 reflections of men that came many, many, many generations later, 337 00:18:15.440 --> 00:18:19.200 who interpreted what they thought was the truth about Jesus, 338 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:21.240 but they got him wrong. I think the judgment of 339 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:26.119 history is that Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet, and that 340 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:29.079 is pretty much the consensus now of New Testament scholars, 341 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:32.079 most of him are Christians, is that historical Jesus was 342 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:35.359 an apocalyptic prophet, and that sits very comfortably with the 343 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:39.319 chronic understanding of Jesus as a man, as a messiah, 344 00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:40.480 as a prophet of God. 345 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:42.000 That's it. 346 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:51.400 That's it, folks. Oh to you, I can't hear you. 347 00:18:51.400 --> 00:18:52.119 Do we have volume? 348 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:55.039 Okay, there's another two minutes if you want to keep 349 00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:55.799 going or do you? 350 00:18:57.039 --> 00:18:58.000 Often enough? Over to us? 351 00:18:59.119 --> 00:19:01.160 All right? Well, interesting, So I heard a lot of 352 00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:05.319 the things that I expected to hear. I think that 353 00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:09.359 the first thing I would point out is exactly what 354 00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:12.640 I elucidated in my initial statement was kind of what 355 00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:14.440 came to the fore, which is a question of pre 356 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:17.880 subpositions and a question of authority. So I heard a 357 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:22.359 lot of appeals to authority about standard everyday scholarship. But 358 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:25.319 that assumes that the scholars like Raymond Brown, who by 359 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:28.960 the way, is a liberal scholar, that because he is 360 00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:31.960 a liberal scholar, because he's a permanent scholar, that he's 361 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:35.480 going to have some somehow more of an objective basis. 362 00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:38.240 But as you yourself pointed out when you harkened to 363 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:40.559 in one of your bits, Thomas Kuhne, you know that 364 00:19:40.599 --> 00:19:44.359 there's not really objectivity when it comes to these big, paradigmatic, 365 00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:48.960 presubpositional questions of world views. There's no possibility of being 366 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:56.480 completely neutral or unbiased. So everybody, even the prevalent, the 367 00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:00.759 predominant liberal scholars of our day, are in fact basing 368 00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:04.119 their assumptions, basing the research on their presubositions. And so 369 00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:05.880 when you come to the text, as you and these 370 00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:09.599 other scholars do, with the presupposition of unbelief, then of 371 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:12.880 course you're going to see discontinuity. You're going to pit 372 00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:15.079 one text against the other. There's going to be an 373 00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:20.720 arbitrary selection of which texts are authentic versions of what 374 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:24.279 Jesus or Paul taught, and then arbitrarily ad hoc over 375 00:20:24.359 --> 00:20:28.400 here Oh, within the next few chapters, scholar XYZ has 376 00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:32.680 told us that that section is invalid. And so, given 377 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:35.759 the fact that none of us have access to the 378 00:20:35.799 --> 00:20:39.640 immediate presence of those texts being written, neither do you 379 00:20:39.839 --> 00:20:42.079 to the origin of the Quran itself. You don't have 380 00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:44.319 a direct access to that. We are both in the 381 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:48.400 same position of accepting texts or rejecting texts on the 382 00:20:48.400 --> 00:20:51.599 basis of authority and on the basis of our presuppositions. 383 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:53.440 So I'm sure more of that will come later. But 384 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:56.279 what I wanted to say was just notice that I 385 00:20:56.440 --> 00:20:59.240 did point out what he would do. I think, and 386 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:01.079 I tend to to see the same type of thing. 387 00:21:01.240 --> 00:21:06.240 I saw, an arbitrary selection of what texts do not 388 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:10.279 allow for the dimnity of Christ and other text that 389 00:21:10.640 --> 00:21:12.880 maybe would be added later where where this is a 390 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:16.640 later and accretion. But I've not yet heard what the 391 00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:20.480 basis is to know when and where and how these 392 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:24.359 differences are present. How do you delineate between the authentic 393 00:21:24.440 --> 00:21:27.799 texts and the texts that are later appropriations. Now, the 394 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:30.000 first thing he mentioned was taal Heed, which I do 395 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:32.200 want to talk about if he's willing to talk about that, 396 00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:35.200 because we have a different conception of what simplicity or 397 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:38.640 unity means in God. And in fact, we didn't just 398 00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:41.480 invent this. We believe that we got it from the 399 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:44.720 Law and the prophets themselves. For example, when Moses talks 400 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:49.599 about seeing the goodness of God, the question arises the attributes. 401 00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:52.720 Are the actions of God identical to the unity of God? 402 00:21:53.200 --> 00:21:55.920 And if they are, do they then meld into the 403 00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:57.759 unity of God? And do we lose a sense of 404 00:21:57.799 --> 00:22:00.960 a real distinction in God. This has been a in 405 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:03.480 religion all the way back to the ancient Vedic text. 406 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:05.079 You can look at the ancient Vedas and you'll see 407 00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:07.240 debates about the one and the many in the relationship 408 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:10.880 to God. Our view is very unique in terms of 409 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:13.119 how we view God. You could look at something like 410 00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:15.559 the number three as an analogy. I'm not equating the 411 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:17.680 trinity to the number three, but I'm using it as analogy. 412 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:21.319 If I were to draw the numeral three, it is 413 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:24.279 a singular aspect, it is a unit of aspect, but 414 00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:27.799 there's also a triplicity to that. That's very true. So 415 00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:33.160 our definition, our understanding of what oneness and unity means 416 00:22:33.920 --> 00:22:39.119 is not derived from philosophic assumptions of Hellenism or Aristotle 417 00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:45.160 or any other philosophic speculation as to what number numerical 418 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.359 unity or oneness in God must mean. And in fact, 419 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:51.240 in our view, we don't set up a dialectic between 420 00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:53.759 the one and the many. So while we do see 421 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:57.559 a distinction between the creator and the creature within God, 422 00:22:57.640 --> 00:23:00.640 if God reveals it to be so that He is 423 00:23:00.680 --> 00:23:03.039 in fact both one and three, we accept it on 424 00:23:03.079 --> 00:23:05.880 the basis of revealed authority. And when we asked the 425 00:23:05.960 --> 00:23:08.119 question of well, how could it be that God is 426 00:23:08.519 --> 00:23:12.160 simultaneously one and also multiple at the same time without 427 00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:16.359 destroying his unity, it goes into the trinitarian theology that 428 00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:18.279 has worked out. Now you said, but that's not in 429 00:23:18.359 --> 00:23:21.880 the Bible. Actually, it does derive from the text of scripture, because, 430 00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:24.000 for example, even in the history of Judaism, we can 431 00:23:24.039 --> 00:23:29.960 look at the debates between no Ahmanides and Rambound himself 432 00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:32.559 where he talks about my monodies, where he talks about 433 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:37.359 is the theophanic manifestation of God in the Old Testament? 434 00:23:37.400 --> 00:23:40.200 Are those Theophanes, these angels of the Lord that appear 435 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:42.920 And I have just a few that came to mind 436 00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:46.119 before this debate there's the examples in Genesis where the 437 00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:49.160 Angel Law appears and he's worshiped. There's the examples of 438 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:52.759 Exodus three with the burning bush, which in Exodus twenty 439 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:56.640 two and three is described of being the name of 440 00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:59.799 God put into this angel, and he is in fact worshiped, 441 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:03.559 and Moses sees the burning bush, this theophany, as we 442 00:24:03.640 --> 00:24:06.400 call it, in these divine manifestations, within time and space, 443 00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:10.319 it's worshiped. Okay, Now there are many of these. The 444 00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:12.400 Angel of the Lord appears to Joshua early in the 445 00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:15.720 Book of Joshua. The Angel of the Lord appears to Samson, 446 00:24:16.599 --> 00:24:20.759 to his parents, to Manoah, and Manoah and his wife 447 00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:23.759 worshiped the Angel of the Lord, the logos that appears. 448 00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:27.799 This happens many many times in the Old Testament. It 449 00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:30.720 happens in Daniel right, when Daniel sees into the lions den, 450 00:24:31.720 --> 00:24:34.440 when Daniel sees in Daniel seven the ascension of Christ, 451 00:24:34.920 --> 00:24:37.279 and he comes before the Ancient of days. You said 452 00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:40.000 that there was no notion in the Old Testament of 453 00:24:40.039 --> 00:24:43.839 these distinctions between these what we call persons or hypostases, 454 00:24:43.880 --> 00:24:47.400 which we believe share one singular divine nature, but in 455 00:24:47.440 --> 00:24:50.319 fact many times over, especially in Daniel seven. When the 456 00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:52.759 sun ascends right, he's called the Son of Man, he 457 00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:57.079 ascends to the Ancient of days, and he's given his throne, dominion, 458 00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.400 and power, which was the ascension. It's not the end 459 00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:03.119 of the world, Daniel seven very clearly shows. It's it 460 00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:06.240 mirrors exactly what the early the first chapter of Acts 461 00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:09.039 shows when Jesus ascends with a cloud of witnesses. Daniel 462 00:25:09.079 --> 00:25:11.519 seven says, Jesus, the Son of Man, ascended with a 463 00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:14.160 cloud of witnesses to the Ancient of days, the Father, 464 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:18.480 and was handed dominion, power, prone, et cetera. Because he 465 00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:22.599 came to unite to human nature and restore it. That 466 00:25:22.640 --> 00:25:24.759 was the whole purpose of the resurrection. Because we fell, 467 00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:28.400 our very nature was damaged, the whole universe was damaged. 468 00:25:28.759 --> 00:25:31.160 So in our view, the purpose of the incarnation was 469 00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:34.720 not a death to pay off God, paying off God, 470 00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:37.400 God paying off himself. That's not how it works. In fact, 471 00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:39.960 Orthodox theology is unique in that regard, and that we 472 00:25:40.039 --> 00:25:43.279 do not believe that there was some divine infinite satisfaction, 473 00:25:43.400 --> 00:25:46.759 like Anselm says, or like Luther and Calvin thought that 474 00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:49.000 you that the son had to pay off the Father, 475 00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:53.000 the Son is eternally divine. That's why he is worshiped. 476 00:25:53.279 --> 00:25:56.160 Whether it's Judaism or Christianity. You can't and I'm sure 477 00:25:56.200 --> 00:25:59.759 you would agree, you can't worship creatures. Right. So, when 478 00:26:00.759 --> 00:26:04.400 as I'm glad you mentioned the what you saw as 479 00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:09.240 a lack of evidence of Jesus being a pre existent 480 00:26:09.319 --> 00:26:12.119 eternal son, Actually, if you read the Magnificat, and if 481 00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:14.960 you read Luke one and two, what does Elizabeth say. 482 00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:17.559 Elizabeth says, who am I? That the Mother of God 483 00:26:17.599 --> 00:26:20.079 should come to me? And that term is not a 484 00:26:20.119 --> 00:26:23.200 lower l it is a lord. It is a divine term. 485 00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:28.160 When Mary gives her magnificat, she says that the God 486 00:26:28.200 --> 00:26:31.279 of the universe is to be praised because the fulfillment 487 00:26:31.319 --> 00:26:34.920 of all the promises to David, to Abraham, he has 488 00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:39.240 fulfilled the promises to those fathers, those Covenant promises in 489 00:26:39.319 --> 00:26:43.480 me in this birth. So this promised Messiah all throughout 490 00:26:43.480 --> 00:26:45.720 all these Old Testament texts which you seem to believe 491 00:26:45.799 --> 00:26:48.880 do not have anything to do with a pre existing 492 00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:52.319 eternal son. It's interesting because Jesus says before Abraham was 493 00:26:52.519 --> 00:26:55.960 I am. Now I'd like to hear your response to that, 494 00:26:55.960 --> 00:26:56.920 that was my eight minutes. 495 00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:01.880 Oh hi Jay, that was can you get okay? My voice? 496 00:27:02.440 --> 00:27:04.359 A huge amount of material there, and I feel a 497 00:27:04.359 --> 00:27:07.079 bit overwhelmed. There's so much matter there. I do want 498 00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:12.319 to stress that I mentioned to quote one from Mark 499 00:27:12.480 --> 00:27:15.559 chapter ten, verse seventeen, where Jesus denies that he's God, 500 00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:19.200 which you didn't address, and also the quote from Paul 501 00:27:19.319 --> 00:27:23.240 in One Corinthians where he clearly presents Jesus as having 502 00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:26.559 a God and this is the exalted Jesus, not the 503 00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:30.039 human Jesus in his Philippians two state, and you didn't 504 00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:30.960 address that either. 505 00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:33.920 I think who wasn't it? I ran out of time, 506 00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:35.039 of course. 507 00:27:34.880 --> 00:27:36.720 But these need to be addressed rather than just brushed 508 00:27:36.720 --> 00:27:39.599 aside and rushing off Daniel's second as if Dnel seven 509 00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:42.640 somehow trump's the actual words alleged words of Jesus and Paul. 510 00:27:44.200 --> 00:27:47.880 So you talk, you emphasize again they game by the 511 00:27:47.960 --> 00:27:50.920 arbitrrianess of scholarship, and I think this is a great travesty. 512 00:27:51.359 --> 00:27:55.279 Both Raymond Professor Raymond Brown and Joseph Fitzmeyer, who were 513 00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:58.519 both Roman Catholic priests. They both believed in the doctrine 514 00:27:58.519 --> 00:28:01.039 of the Trinity as you do. They both believe Jesus 515 00:28:01.079 --> 00:28:02.680 rose them are dead. They both believe in the history. 516 00:28:03.200 --> 00:28:05.599 You can label them as liberals, which of course is 517 00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:09.359 what sectarian Christians do. They just dismissed them as if 518 00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:11.839 this has a magic wand and you know it brushes 519 00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:14.960 them aside. But these are seen as incredibly serious scholars 520 00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:17.640 and the greatest scholars of the twentieth century, and they 521 00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:19.359 have if you actually read their stuff, it has some 522 00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:23.440 immensely interesting things to say. So I'm quoting Trinitarian Christians 523 00:28:25.079 --> 00:28:27.720 and not unbelievers. You said there were unbelievers, and they're 524 00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:29.960 certainly not by my book, But that's another subject to 525 00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:31.400 If you want to tack fear them, as we say 526 00:28:31.400 --> 00:28:35.319 in Islam, that's up to you. But coming back to 527 00:28:35.400 --> 00:28:38.400 these passengers, the early, the earliest Jesus material we have 528 00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:43.240 according to responsible biblical scholarship, which is not unbelieving, it's 529 00:28:43.279 --> 00:28:47.319 not arbitrary, if you When I studied this at university 530 00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:50.000 as part of my degree, and I read the New 531 00:28:50.039 --> 00:28:53.559 Testament in Greek, that there were some very reasonable and 532 00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:59.920 sophisticated methodologies trying to understand the exegesis of the texts. 533 00:29:00.319 --> 00:29:02.359 And I'm interally grateful for having learned a great deal 534 00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:05.240 about the Bible. And that applies in the Old Testament. 535 00:29:05.440 --> 00:29:08.400 If you look at the earliest Gospels, which is commonly 536 00:29:08.440 --> 00:29:11.240 spoke thought to be Mark, actually we see a quite 537 00:29:11.319 --> 00:29:16.759 different portraits of Jesus, different teaching, different style, different Christology 538 00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:19.839 than we do, say at the very last gospel written 539 00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:23.559 that of John. And the consensus. And you can disagree 540 00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:26.319 with the consensus. I'm not saying it's infallible. The consensus 541 00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:29.079 is that Matthew and Luke used Mark in the writing 542 00:29:29.119 --> 00:29:31.200 of their own gospels. And I've looked at the evidence 543 00:29:31.200 --> 00:29:33.559 for this argument. I find it persuasive. At the level 544 00:29:33.599 --> 00:29:36.359 of Greek. You have great chunks of gospels which are 545 00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:40.000 identically worded in Greek, which suggests that someone is coppying 546 00:29:40.039 --> 00:29:42.000 from someone else, unless you believe in this kind of 547 00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:46.240 miraculous you know, great chunks of even incidental narratives are 548 00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:49.200 identically worded. So the idea is there is a literary 549 00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:52.400 dependency between the gospels. It's called the synoptic problem. And 550 00:29:52.440 --> 00:29:55.039 the solution that's most popular, although it's you know, could 551 00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:58.799 be wrong, is that Matthew used Mark. And what we 552 00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:05.079 notice then on That assumption is that statements that the 553 00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:08.759 way Matthew has changed Mark because Matthew makes slight alterations 554 00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:12.400 and editorial changes, statements that might imply a lack of 555 00:30:12.440 --> 00:30:16.799 ability or authority on Jesus' part are modified. For example, 556 00:30:16.839 --> 00:30:21.240 Matthew thirteen fifty eight with Mark six ' five references 557 00:30:21.279 --> 00:30:26.000 to Jesus exhibiting human emotions are simply dropped. They're simply omitted. 558 00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:30.079 For example, pity in Marked one forty one. Anger is 559 00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:33.680 omitted Mark five to three, sadness Mark three five has emitted, 560 00:30:34.319 --> 00:30:38.400 Indignation ten fourteen is omitted. Stories that might seem to 561 00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:41.960 portray Jesus as a magician are emitted. In Mark seven 562 00:30:42.119 --> 00:30:47.240 thirty one is omitted. Also, the disciples, who are given 563 00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:49.079 quite hard time in Mark they are shown to be 564 00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:52.519 people of little faith or no faith, actually become almost 565 00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:56.000 model disciples in Matthew's possible he spruces them up. It's 566 00:30:56.039 --> 00:30:59.160 what we call in England the dodgy dossier about the 567 00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:02.079 Iraq War. These documents have been sexed up quite a bit. 568 00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:05.119 They've been used to elevate the status of the disciples. 569 00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:09.079 Jesus becomes more of a grand figure. His christology is exalted. 570 00:31:09.400 --> 00:31:12.079 And you see that part excellence in the Fourth Gospel, 571 00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:14.680 where Jesus says things and does things which no other 572 00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:17.680 gospel has ever recorded him saying these I am statements. 573 00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:20.799 If Jesus went around Galilee and Judea whatever saying I 574 00:31:20.839 --> 00:31:22.880 am the Light of the world, I am the resurrection 575 00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:26.400 of the life, and so on. How Come Dluke, for example, 576 00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:28.599 who went, who carefully examined all these things in the 577 00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:31.680 beginning he claims, never recalls a single example. How Come 578 00:31:31.720 --> 00:31:35.039 Matthew ignores it. How Come Mark never knows anything about it? 579 00:31:35.119 --> 00:31:38.000 How Come nowhere else in the Acts, for example, no 580 00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:40.480 one ever recalled Paul whenever it calls Jesus speaking like this. 581 00:31:40.839 --> 00:31:43.519 So this is seen by virtue all scholars, even conservative 582 00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:45.680 ones like Richard Balcombe. I know how familiar you are 583 00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:48.279 a biblical scholarship, But in terms of new settlement scholarship, 584 00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:51.039 Richard Borkam's of a conservative evangelical figure professor here in Britain, 585 00:31:51.720 --> 00:31:54.079 says that these terms, the im statements, are put on 586 00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:57.400 the lips of Jesus. That's their manner of speaking. It's 587 00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:00.839 not my invention. Quickly moving on to the Old Testament, 588 00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:03.559 Daniel seven if you look at it in context, the 589 00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:07.039 Son of Man actually refers to Israel. It actually explicitly 590 00:32:07.079 --> 00:32:09.440 says that. Later on the same chapter. This is a 591 00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:13.200 figure of speech, how Israel goes to the Ancient of days? 592 00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:15.640 Ancient of days? Is God not the son of the 593 00:32:15.640 --> 00:32:17.759 Son of Man. It actually says in that passage the 594 00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:20.960 son of Man refers to the saints of the most High, 595 00:32:21.119 --> 00:32:24.240 quote unquote, which is Israel. So is nothing to do 596 00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:28.000 with Jesus at all. Lastly, at this point, nowhere in 597 00:32:28.119 --> 00:32:32.079 the Jewish Bible is it ever prophesied that the Messiah 598 00:32:32.680 --> 00:32:36.799 would die for people's sins. Now Paul in one in 599 00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:39.480 one Corinthians fifteen, verse three says about the gospel he 600 00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:42.599 has received that according to the scriptures, the son of 601 00:32:42.759 --> 00:32:45.519 the Messiah would die and be buried for three days, 602 00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:47.880 and on a third day he'd rise again. In accordance 603 00:32:48.079 --> 00:32:51.079 with the scriptures, I would argue that, actually, nowhere in 604 00:32:51.079 --> 00:32:54.119 the Jewish scriptures has ever say that the Messiah was 605 00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:56.960 not supposed to die for people sins. He was supposed 606 00:32:57.000 --> 00:32:59.920 to be triumphant over people's sins. Nowhere in the juw 607 00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:03.039 scriptures does it ever predict that God would become a man. 608 00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:06.240 Never says that that he would become God, would become 609 00:33:06.240 --> 00:33:08.759 the Messiah, that God would die for people's sins, that 610 00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:12.079 God would raise just doesn't say it anywhere. Now I'm 611 00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:15.640 aware of Christian attempts to twist the scriptures and read 612 00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:19.319 into them. Do ester Jesus rather I see Jesus as 613 00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:23.160 we say, see Jesus everywhere, rather than exe Jesus. Ex 614 00:33:23.319 --> 00:33:26.200 Jesus is. Everyone accepts the ex Jesus is a responsible 615 00:33:26.200 --> 00:33:27.759 way to read the Bible. Were looking for what the 616 00:33:27.799 --> 00:33:30.279 author is intender to mean, rather than what we like 617 00:33:30.359 --> 00:33:33.279 them to say. And we don't read our own theology 618 00:33:33.400 --> 00:33:35.839 or our own religion into the Bible. But Christians read 619 00:33:35.880 --> 00:33:38.079 it into the Bible all over the place, and they 620 00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:41.799 see Jesus where the Jews have never seen Jesus. It's 621 00:33:41.839 --> 00:33:43.839 important that nowhere in the Bible does that say the 622 00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:46.640 Messiah would die for anyone's sins and atonement for sins. 623 00:33:46.759 --> 00:33:49.880 This is a Christian idea. Jesus didn't preach it. Jesus 624 00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:53.240 said people's sins are freely forgiven. Look at Luke's Gospel, 625 00:33:53.359 --> 00:33:56.160 look at the Sermon on the Mount. Freely forgiveness of 626 00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:59.119 sins is available are simply repenting to God in Heaven 627 00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:03.200 and Jesus cause people to a renewal spirituary, renewed following 628 00:34:03.240 --> 00:34:06.079 of God in the Kingdom of God, obeying the Torah 629 00:34:06.079 --> 00:34:08.679 which Christians have abandoned. All the Christians I know, most 630 00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:11.760 Christian eat pork. Jesus said you mustn't eat pork in me. 631 00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:15.079 That very clear on several occasions. So what we're dealing 632 00:34:15.079 --> 00:34:18.000 with here, we're dealing of the religion about Jesus. Christianity 633 00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:22.840 is a religion about Jesus. Islam actually caused people back 634 00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:26.480 to the religion of Jesus, and that's a crucial distinction. 635 00:34:27.199 --> 00:34:30.880 Islam is a call back to people not to worship Jesus, 636 00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:33.920 but to follow the religion of Jesus. And there's a 637 00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:37.599 wonderful hadith of the prophet Mohammed. Mohammad piece upon him 638 00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:41.880 said once said to people, do not exaggerate in praising me, 639 00:34:42.039 --> 00:34:45.960 as the Christians have exaggerated in praising Jesus, son of Mary. 640 00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:49.360 For I am only a servant, So say he is 641 00:34:49.400 --> 00:34:52.880 the servant of Allah and his messenger. That's a how 642 00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:56.199 do you think Albakhari, So Mohammad taught us that to 643 00:34:56.239 --> 00:34:59.360 be very aware not to do to him what Christians 644 00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:01.920 have done to g Jesus. They made him into a deity. 645 00:35:02.400 --> 00:35:04.679 And the Colney has some very fun things to fare 646 00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:05.440 about one. 647 00:35:05.639 --> 00:35:12.159 Okay, okay, all right, okay, well I'll start my section. 648 00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:15.119 So the first thing that I says that the reason 649 00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:17.280 that I didn't address those texts was not trying to 650 00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:19.840 avoid them, but rather I was working through my list 651 00:35:19.880 --> 00:35:22.119 of things I wrote down as you were talking. So 652 00:35:22.280 --> 00:35:24.559 about the text where Christ says that he still has 653 00:35:24.559 --> 00:35:27.000 a God. It may be a surprise to you, maybe 654 00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:29.199 I think you came from a Roman Catholic background, but 655 00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:32.559 in Orthodox theology, we are very insistent on the fact 656 00:35:32.599 --> 00:35:35.280 that the Father is the source and fountain of the Godhead, 657 00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:37.480 and that will always be the case, and in fact, 658 00:35:37.519 --> 00:35:40.920 that's consistent in the text where Jesus says that he 659 00:35:41.000 --> 00:35:43.280 came to do the will of the Father, and then 660 00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:46.239 later on when Paul writes and says that Christ is 661 00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:49.480 that the Father is the head of Christ, just as 662 00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:51.559 the man is the head of the wife. It's the 663 00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:54.639 same application the same principle. When Jesus says that none 664 00:35:54.719 --> 00:35:57.559 is good but God, and namely the Father, he also 665 00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:00.719 in other places refers to himself as good. He tells 666 00:36:00.760 --> 00:36:03.039 the woman and the well that he is the one 667 00:36:03.039 --> 00:36:05.599 who was to come. She says, sir, who is this 668 00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:07.880 Messiah that's to come? Who is this one who's going 669 00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:11.320 to bring this water of living waters flowing out of him? 670 00:36:11.760 --> 00:36:15.760 And he says, I am he. You are speaking to him. Now, 671 00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:18.039 you did the exact same thing that I said you 672 00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:21.199 would do, which was that your ultimate source of authority 673 00:36:21.199 --> 00:36:23.719 and appealed to. What you ultimately appealed to was the 674 00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:29.199 arbitrary scholars that you chose. So your rationale is not 675 00:36:29.360 --> 00:36:33.079 based on the internal consistency of the text, but on 676 00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:37.480 the presupposition of unbelief appealing to authority. So, in other words, 677 00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:39.760 both of us are appealing to authority. Right, you said 678 00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:41.840 that I was reading I was doing Ia Jesus by 679 00:36:41.880 --> 00:36:45.440 reading into the text what I wanted to see there. 680 00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:48.079 But in fact, every human being, as I just said, 681 00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:50.199 is going to in some way read their worldview and 682 00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:53.079 their presubpositions oft of the text. You confirmed that by 683 00:36:53.079 --> 00:36:55.239 the fact that you relied on Raymond Brown and the 684 00:36:55.239 --> 00:36:57.360 fact that you went to whatever school and you studied 685 00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:01.840 biblical scholarship. Yeah, but that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter 686 00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:05.400 if the majority of biblical scholarship in our day is unbelieving, 687 00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:07.480 that's not going to be an argument. That's not going 688 00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:09.559 to be a source by which you can prove any 689 00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:12.000 kind of argument you can bring that forth to to 690 00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:15.760 as a way to kind of have an attestation, you know, 691 00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:18.239 I might cite Josephus or something like this as a 692 00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:21.840 as a confirmation of something that I would argue, but 693 00:37:21.960 --> 00:37:25.000 to appeal to Raymond Brown, or to appeal to any 694 00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:29.199 of the numerous higher critical schools, again going all the 695 00:37:29.239 --> 00:37:32.400 way back to Julius Vallhausen, the founder of modern higher criticism. 696 00:37:32.440 --> 00:37:35.679 Isn't it interesting that the documentary hypothesis was born out 697 00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:39.559 of and admitted desire to destroy the texts. So you're 698 00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:44.679 appealing to the textual tradition of higher criticism, which was intented. 699 00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:48.440 Its whole intention was to destroy not the New Testament, 700 00:37:48.960 --> 00:37:52.599 but Moses, the Torah, the very thing that you at 701 00:37:52.639 --> 00:37:56.480 times think is true. So it's completely arbitrary when you 702 00:37:56.519 --> 00:37:59.360 say that you want to go back to reconstruct the 703 00:37:59.400 --> 00:38:03.199 original religion of Jesus. You don't know what that is 704 00:38:03.559 --> 00:38:06.079 because it's completely arbitrary. It's ad hoc. And you can 705 00:38:06.159 --> 00:38:09.480 appeal to any manner of unbelieving scholars all day, but 706 00:38:09.519 --> 00:38:12.440 all that does is show the inadequacy of your position. 707 00:38:12.599 --> 00:38:14.360 Because if I were to come out here and just 708 00:38:14.360 --> 00:38:18.280 start appealing to the top Islamic scholars and this liberal scholar, 709 00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:22.119 and that is Karen Armstrong or any scholar who has 710 00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:25.800 a liberal perspective, you would immediately say that that's probably 711 00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:28.000 not an authentic reading of Islam. Or if we were 712 00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:31.800 to appeal to the different divisions. So there's multiple fallacies 713 00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:35.119 at work in the arguments that you're making. Again, only 714 00:38:35.239 --> 00:38:37.920 Orthodoxy has the strict view that the Father is the 715 00:38:37.960 --> 00:38:41.800 source and fount of Godhead, who communicates that deity through 716 00:38:41.800 --> 00:38:45.320 the Son to the Spirit. So the triune God is 717 00:38:45.320 --> 00:38:47.880 not something that we invented. Again, I give you a 718 00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:50.320 list of Theophanes. I gave you a list of things 719 00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:52.280 in the Old Testament where the Angel of the Lord, 720 00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:57.480 which angel just means a messenger, is literally worshiped. Now again, Judaism, Christianity, 721 00:38:57.480 --> 00:39:02.119 we all agree that we cannot worship creatures. Theophanes are worshiped, 722 00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:05.480 and they're not identical to the Father. As Exodus three 723 00:39:05.719 --> 00:39:08.320 and twenty two twenty three makes clear with the Angel 724 00:39:08.360 --> 00:39:10.920 of the Lord God says I will put my name 725 00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:17.880 Yahweh into that angel. Right, he has that full divine authority, 726 00:39:17.880 --> 00:39:19.920 and he goes before in the fire and the cloud 727 00:39:19.960 --> 00:39:23.159 in the Exodus to cleanse the Promised Land. So guess 728 00:39:23.199 --> 00:39:26.360 what it was, Jesus the logos that cleansed the Promised Land. 729 00:39:26.599 --> 00:39:29.320 Because all throughout the New Testament it's made consistently and 730 00:39:29.360 --> 00:39:31.760 abundantly clear. Now you can pick out certain texts where 731 00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:34.840 you think that, well, it's not Jesus there, because Jesus 732 00:39:34.840 --> 00:39:37.239 says that he submits to the Father. That's just assuming 733 00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:39.719 that the Trinity isn't true. So I could appeal to 734 00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:42.400 all kinds of texts and find all kinds of things that, 735 00:39:42.480 --> 00:39:44.800 if I don't have a holistic perspective of the Bible, 736 00:39:45.559 --> 00:39:49.320 I think might grant me or give me a justification. 737 00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:52.159 But this has already been subtled and dealt with. I mean, 738 00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:55.519 all you're giving is kind of classical Aryan arguments that 739 00:39:55.639 --> 00:40:00.440 Saint Athanasius, Saint Basil others dealt with extensively. Obviously, I 740 00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:02.679 can't go into all that in eight minutes. But when 741 00:40:02.679 --> 00:40:05.280 we say that there's one good, He is God. That 742 00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:09.159 doesn't mean that doesn't exclude the possibility they're also being 743 00:40:09.159 --> 00:40:12.920 a multiplicity in God. Because guess what, Although you may 744 00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:16.400 think that you have a perfectly unitive view of God, 745 00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:20.960 you actually don't because the same problems that occur in 746 00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:23.599 what you perceive us to have in terms of multiplicity, 747 00:40:24.000 --> 00:40:26.280 you have those same problems. I know you think you don't, 748 00:40:26.719 --> 00:40:29.480 But in fact, if you believe that the actions of 749 00:40:29.480 --> 00:40:33.119 God in creating the world are identical to the unity 750 00:40:33.199 --> 00:40:35.559 or the essence of God, or God's nature, whatever you 751 00:40:35.599 --> 00:40:38.119 want to call it, whatever terms you guys use, then 752 00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:41.360 you have to also affirm that that action is just 753 00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:44.519 as eternal as the essence. It's synonymous as the divine essence. 754 00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:47.840 And this is what Saint Athanasius refuted the Arians on 755 00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:50.480 the basis of He says that when you guys identify 756 00:40:50.599 --> 00:40:54.599 God's will with the divine essence, which is exactly what 757 00:40:54.840 --> 00:40:58.159 you do in your theology, because you don't have any 758 00:40:58.199 --> 00:41:00.639 distinctions in God, because you have the priests position, that 759 00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:04.280 distinction must be in composition or division, and it must 760 00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:08.440 therefore mean a denial of the true unity of God. Okay, well, 761 00:41:08.519 --> 00:41:13.199 let's go down that road. If there is no allowance 762 00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:16.719 for any sense of multiplicity in the divine, then not 763 00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:19.719 only does the act of creation become an eternal action, 764 00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:22.159 and creation that becomes just as eternal as God. You 765 00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:24.480 have pantheism. You could also flip it on the other 766 00:41:24.519 --> 00:41:27.280 side and say, well, then God will to create out 767 00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:30.119 of his essence, and he has no relationship to the 768 00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:32.920 created order because he's nothing like the created order. But 769 00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:35.280 you see the very thing that we say about the 770 00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:37.960 incarnation when it comes to Jesus and how he can 771 00:41:38.039 --> 00:41:41.239 become incarnate and speak to us and move and operate 772 00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:43.199 in this world in the sense of being the second 773 00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:46.480 person that God had taken on impersonal human nature. You 774 00:41:46.599 --> 00:41:50.840 have that same problem with relating this perfectly unified deity 775 00:41:51.280 --> 00:41:54.519 to the created here and now you see, how does 776 00:41:54.599 --> 00:42:03.199 the Quran perfectly exemplify this eternal, abstract beyond deity that 777 00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:07.360 does not in any way have created forms, likenesses, or analogies. 778 00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:09.760 How does he do that? How does how can there 779 00:42:09.800 --> 00:42:13.000 be a Quran that really tells us truths about God 780 00:42:13.719 --> 00:42:16.880 if you do not allow for any distinctions or any 781 00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:22.199 conceptual analogies, Because guess what conceptual analogies or written analogies 782 00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:25.880 are no different than iconographic depictions. So it doesn't matter 783 00:42:25.880 --> 00:42:29.320 whether it's an icon on a wall that says the 784 00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:35.119 name Allah, or whether it's a book that says the 785 00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:38.519 name Allah and the supposed words of Allah, or whether 786 00:42:38.599 --> 00:42:41.599 in our view, it's an iconographic representation of Christ, an 787 00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:44.239 icon of Christ, or whether it's Christ and his human 788 00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:47.079 nature walking around and talking. All of these are the 789 00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:51.280 exact same issue, and you haven't actually escaped escaped this 790 00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:54.599 issue by simply saying that, well, God is perfectly unitive 791 00:42:55.079 --> 00:42:57.800 in a radical way, and you guys are heretics because 792 00:42:58.159 --> 00:43:01.039 you have the notion of multiplicitis in the godhead. I 793 00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:05.119 would just again emphasize if God is absolutely identical to all, 794 00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:08.960 to his essence in every way, in every sense, then 795 00:43:09.159 --> 00:43:11.840 creation is an eternal action, and you actually be believe 796 00:43:11.920 --> 00:43:12.760 creation is eternal. 797 00:43:16.280 --> 00:43:17.880 Okay, Jay, thank you for all that. There's a great 798 00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:20.960 deal there. I doubt I can't in eight minutes response 799 00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:23.960 possibly responded in adequate detail to many of these issues. 800 00:43:24.599 --> 00:43:26.639 Patty might be helpful just to say what the Kranz 801 00:43:26.679 --> 00:43:30.719 says about God in a very famous throughout eclus Iclus, 802 00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:33.159 which is the one hundred and twelfth sah. It's very brief, 803 00:43:33.639 --> 00:43:35.800 and I'm reading from Mohammad Asseid's translation. In the Name 804 00:43:35.840 --> 00:43:39.639 of God, the most Gracious, the dispenser of grace, say 805 00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:44.480 this is talk addressing Mohammad. Say, he is the one God, God, 806 00:43:44.639 --> 00:43:49.440 the eternal, the uncaused cause of all that exists. He 807 00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:53.159 begets not and neither is he begotten, and there is 808 00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:56.719 nothing that could be compared with him. Now this is 809 00:43:56.760 --> 00:44:02.559 extraordinarily condensed, concise express of a theology. Here he's eternal, 810 00:44:02.599 --> 00:44:05.000 he's the uncaused cause of all that exists. In other words, 811 00:44:05.000 --> 00:44:07.760 to use our language as in philosophers, he possesses a saiety. 812 00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:10.679 He doesn't forget, nor that is, he begotness like an 813 00:44:10.719 --> 00:44:14.480 animal that gives birth to offspring. And there's nothing that 814 00:44:14.599 --> 00:44:19.079 can be compared with him. He is unique, he's unlike 815 00:44:19.320 --> 00:44:23.719 his creation. This is the Islamic conception of God. And 816 00:44:24.280 --> 00:44:27.000 I don't need to stress how different that is to 817 00:44:27.079 --> 00:44:31.679 some aspects of Christian theology. This cannot describe Jesus. The 818 00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:35.719 Jesus we see in the Gospels is not eternal. He 819 00:44:35.800 --> 00:44:38.880 dies on the cross, so he's not immortal. Even though 820 00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:41.239 Paul says in one Timothy six, that God is immortal, 821 00:44:41.280 --> 00:44:45.800 he dies, Jesus, there's nothing could be compared with him, 822 00:44:45.840 --> 00:44:48.280 or obviously there is. He's a human being, but he 823 00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:52.199 doesn't exhibit divine attributes. For example, he doesn't know things. 824 00:44:52.480 --> 00:44:55.519 In Matthew thirteen thirty two about the date of the end, 825 00:44:56.280 --> 00:44:59.599 it says that neither the Sun nor the angels, but 826 00:44:59.679 --> 00:45:02.960 only the Father knows the date of the end. So 827 00:45:03.440 --> 00:45:05.400 the son doesn't know. Even the Holy Spirit doesn't get 828 00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:08.280 a look in on that. Only God the Father knows, 829 00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:12.360 So he doesn't know things. He dies, he's not almighty, 830 00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:15.599 he gets tired, and so on. So you get this 831 00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:20.159 kind of incoherent understanding of incarnation. On the one hand, 832 00:45:20.199 --> 00:45:23.320 he is all powerful, he's got On the other hand, 833 00:45:23.480 --> 00:45:26.199 he's weak. On the one hand, he is all knowing, omniscient. 834 00:45:26.519 --> 00:45:28.760 On the other hand, he doesn't know stuff. On the 835 00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:31.039 one hand is immortal and the other you get You 836 00:45:31.039 --> 00:45:34.159 get these all in the one person. It's not two persons, 837 00:45:34.159 --> 00:45:37.480 only one person of Jesus. And that this is incoherent. 838 00:45:37.719 --> 00:45:40.000 Does he die or doesn't he? Well, yes and no. 839 00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:42.280 Does he know stuff or not? Well, yes and no. 840 00:45:42.519 --> 00:45:46.440 It doesn't make any coherence. The coherence of Jesus as 841 00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:51.440 a being is there inherent incoherences. It's contradictory, it makes 842 00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:56.159 no sense, both philosophically and logically. But also the earl, 843 00:45:56.400 --> 00:45:59.320 the earliest Church, the Paths of Jesus, didn't believe Jesus 844 00:45:59.400 --> 00:46:00.960 was God at all. And in fact, if you look 845 00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:02.599 at the Book of Acts and you look at Peter's 846 00:46:02.679 --> 00:46:05.119 very first sermon, remember this is after the coming of 847 00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:07.880 the Holy Spirit, after the ascension of Jesus. So here 848 00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:10.599 now we have Paul understanding who Jesus is, and he 849 00:46:10.599 --> 00:46:13.800 says in verse twenty two to the Israelites, you, that Israelites, 850 00:46:13.840 --> 00:46:16.119 listen to what I have to say to you. Jesus 851 00:46:16.119 --> 00:46:19.719 of Nazareth was a man attested to you by God, 852 00:46:20.119 --> 00:46:23.159 with deeds of power, wonders and signs that God did 853 00:46:23.239 --> 00:46:26.960 through him among you, as you yourselves know. So he 854 00:46:27.000 --> 00:46:30.519 wasn't God. He was a man attested by God. Peter's 855 00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:33.280 not preaching in the incarnation. He's not preaching the trinities, 856 00:46:33.360 --> 00:46:35.840 not preaching the divinity of Jesus. And at the very 857 00:46:36.039 --> 00:46:38.760 end of this sermon, according to Acts in verse thirty six, 858 00:46:39.039 --> 00:46:43.039 therefore Peter sammarizes, let the entire house of Israel know 859 00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:48.119 with certainty that God has made him both Lord and Messiah. 860 00:46:48.360 --> 00:46:51.199 So Jesus wasn't Lord, he wasn't the Messiah. God, who 861 00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:54.199 is a separate being from Jesus, made him so. And 862 00:46:54.239 --> 00:46:57.079 this is the this is the beginning of acts. And 863 00:46:57.199 --> 00:46:59.960 I mentioned and Paul saying that Jesus has a God 864 00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:02.719 them a number of other passages in Paul that say 865 00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:05.480 the same thing. They clearly beginning of most of pause letters. 866 00:47:05.519 --> 00:47:07.280 By the way, he talks about the God and Father 867 00:47:07.320 --> 00:47:10.519 of our Lord, Jesus Christ. So Jesus has a God. 868 00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:13.079 That that's this standard interaction. He's always telling you, don't 869 00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:15.280 believe in the trinity, don't believe in Of course he's 870 00:47:15.320 --> 00:47:17.760 not anachronistically, he doesn't believe you haven't heard of it 871 00:47:17.960 --> 00:47:21.239 a trinity. But I come back to this point. It's 872 00:47:21.760 --> 00:47:23.559 important to me that if you look at the earliest 873 00:47:23.599 --> 00:47:27.239 Jewish tradition in Matthew, Mark and Luke, and what Jesus 874 00:47:27.280 --> 00:47:30.800 actually says and done, he's not preaching himself. He's not 875 00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:33.440 going around saying, hey, believe in me, I'm God. He's 876 00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:36.480 actually preaching about the Kingdom of God. He's preaching about 877 00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:39.039 God and his kingdom, which is a special way connected 878 00:47:39.039 --> 00:47:42.199 to his own ministry. But he's not proclaiming himself as divine. 879 00:47:42.719 --> 00:47:45.719 He's portrayed as someone who prays to God, who says 880 00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:49.079 on the cross according to Mark and Matthew, my God, 881 00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:52.639 my God, why have you abandoned me? So he feels 882 00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:55.760 abandoned by God according to the Early Gospels, which is 883 00:47:55.760 --> 00:47:58.519 a bit peculiar if your God. He's portrayed as someone 884 00:47:58.519 --> 00:48:01.079 who dies, which is a bit peculiar, impossible if this 885 00:48:01.119 --> 00:48:03.880 person is God. But look what happens in the religions 886 00:48:03.880 --> 00:48:08.159 that will call themselves Christians today. They proclaim Jesus the 887 00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:11.960 proclaimer has become the proclaimed, the one who preached God 888 00:48:12.280 --> 00:48:15.880 is become the one himself who is identified as God. 889 00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:20.519 And this fundamental inversion is what Islam has come in 890 00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:23.960 part to rectify and to reform and calling Christians back 891 00:48:24.199 --> 00:48:27.119 to the worship of the One True God. And even 892 00:48:27.320 --> 00:48:31.039 in John's Gospel, which has this fictionalized account according to 893 00:48:31.119 --> 00:48:33.320 virtually all scholars. And don't throw the liberal thing at me. 894 00:48:33.639 --> 00:48:37.280 Conservative scholars say the same thing, and I can reference 895 00:48:37.320 --> 00:48:38.920 their work. So I'm afraid you have no way to 896 00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:42.320 escape unless you go to fundamentalist seminaries in the Deep 897 00:48:42.360 --> 00:48:46.079 South or something in the major institutions of learning. This 898 00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:49.800 is pretty much the standard view that John as a theologized, 899 00:48:49.840 --> 00:48:55.519 fictionalized account. But even there, Jesus says to Mary Magdalen, 900 00:48:55.599 --> 00:48:58.039 do not touch me, for I am returning to your 901 00:48:58.119 --> 00:49:03.079 father and my father, to your God and my God. Jesus, 902 00:49:03.639 --> 00:49:07.280 even in his resurrected state, freely confesses that he has 903 00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:11.079 a God which he shares with his disciples, my God 904 00:49:11.119 --> 00:49:13.760 and your God, your Father and my Father. He does 905 00:49:13.800 --> 00:49:16.760 not say, ah, now you understand the Trinity, and I 906 00:49:16.760 --> 00:49:18.639 am God as well, and I am divine. No, no, no, 907 00:49:18.679 --> 00:49:21.760 He says that he has a God. In Islam, there 908 00:49:21.800 --> 00:49:24.320 is only one God, and he doesn't consist of three 909 00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:27.960 of three persons. Coming back to the Old Testament, I 910 00:49:28.039 --> 00:49:30.559 do challenge you, Jay, to show me a single passage 911 00:49:30.599 --> 00:49:34.960 anywhere in the Jewish scriptures that clearly states the trinity. 912 00:49:35.519 --> 00:49:38.119 You see, if God was trinity all along, and he 913 00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:40.440 was communicating the truth about God as he was in 914 00:49:40.480 --> 00:49:43.239 great detail through the prophets. Say in Isaiah, the whole 915 00:49:43.320 --> 00:49:48.199 chapter four chapters forty three sixty six, huge monotheistic discourse 916 00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:51.599 about the nature of God. Not once, not once, does 917 00:49:51.639 --> 00:49:55.239 Isah give any hint of this three and one deity. 918 00:49:55.599 --> 00:49:59.000 There's no three and one deity in Isaiah would if 919 00:49:59.039 --> 00:50:02.119 God wanted to communicate with his beloved treasured people, he 920 00:50:02.159 --> 00:50:04.199 would surely tell them the truth about who he was. 921 00:50:04.280 --> 00:50:07.320 He could have done so he did in Christian theology apparently, 922 00:50:07.519 --> 00:50:10.239 but he didn't. No way in the Jewish scriptures is 923 00:50:10.280 --> 00:50:13.199 there are three and one God ever mentioned. All you 924 00:50:13.199 --> 00:50:17.880 can do is points are very obscure. Passengers, passages and Genesis, 925 00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:19.679 and you talk about the Angel of the Lord, we 926 00:50:19.719 --> 00:50:22.639 talk about God. This is true. This is a feature 927 00:50:22.760 --> 00:50:25.519 of these texts where the Angel of the Lord oscillates 928 00:50:25.760 --> 00:50:28.000 between on the one hand, being known as the Angel Lord, 929 00:50:28.039 --> 00:50:31.719 then he oscillates to being identified with God. And this 930 00:50:31.800 --> 00:50:34.599 is a peculiar feature. But Jesus is not an angel. 931 00:50:34.840 --> 00:50:38.000 Nowhere does Christians jaw as I think believe Jehovah's witnesses 932 00:50:38.000 --> 00:50:41.039 believe Jesus was archangel Megan. But talking about Orthodotes, Christians 933 00:50:41.039 --> 00:50:43.880 and Catholics and Evangelicals, no where do they believe Jesus 934 00:50:43.880 --> 00:50:47.760 was an angel. And this feature of oscillation between Angel 935 00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:49.840 of God and identified with God is peculiar, but it 936 00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:52.880 doesn't tell us about a trinity. It doesn't say Father, son, 937 00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:55.800 and Holy Spirit. That's what I'm looking for. Rather than 938 00:50:55.840 --> 00:50:58.639 these very ambiguous passages. If you look at the very 939 00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:01.760 clear passages about who God is, his nature, who he 940 00:51:01.960 --> 00:51:05.719 is relation to humankind. Look to Isaiah chapter forty onwards, 941 00:51:05.880 --> 00:51:08.440 look to the other Great monarchy. Nowhere is there any 942 00:51:08.519 --> 00:51:10.559 hint of a trinity, And in fact it's not there. 943 00:51:10.599 --> 00:51:13.079 In the New Testament. Peter says that Jesus was just 944 00:51:13.159 --> 00:51:16.559 a man accredited by God, and Paul says, at the 945 00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:18.840 beginning of nearly all of his letters, in the name 946 00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:22.599 of you know God, the Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ, 947 00:51:22.639 --> 00:51:26.159 the God and Father God of Jesus. So he is 948 00:51:26.199 --> 00:51:28.719 not saying he is God either. This is a later 949 00:51:28.800 --> 00:51:32.880 doctrine Christian. The earliest Jews were not Christians. The earliest 950 00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:36.199 follows of Jesus, I should say, were not Christians. This 951 00:51:36.280 --> 00:51:39.360 is an important historical point to make. They were Jews. 952 00:51:39.920 --> 00:51:42.440 They were Jews who were following the Jewish clan, who 953 00:51:42.679 --> 00:51:46.400 believed from the bed anyway, end of Okay, would you 954 00:51:46.440 --> 00:51:48.079 mind it if I've just got some more water, because 955 00:51:48.119 --> 00:51:48.920 I've run out. 956 00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:53.639 I'll remind the chat too that we will be taking questions. 957 00:51:53.639 --> 00:51:55.559 If you guys want to send in some super chats 958 00:51:55.559 --> 00:51:58.800 when we finish our exchanges, you're welcome to do that. 959 00:51:59.360 --> 00:52:03.760 I'm not going to be interacting with the questions in 960 00:52:03.880 --> 00:52:07.840 the chats, so I'm kind of loosely moderating here. So again, 961 00:52:07.960 --> 00:52:12.599 let's keep our discourse as civil as possible while he 962 00:52:13.079 --> 00:52:19.199 takes a break. And yeah, I want to remind everybody 963 00:52:19.199 --> 00:52:21.880 again if you do want your question, but now that. 964 00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:25.000 Just needs some mouths trawing up. What do you want 965 00:52:25.039 --> 00:52:26.119 to do? Continue or break or what? 966 00:52:26.920 --> 00:52:30.000 Let me continue here? I'll take my turn, okay, Right, 967 00:52:30.079 --> 00:52:33.000 So let's look at the first presupposition that's a false presubposition, 968 00:52:33.079 --> 00:52:38.039 which is that if you can't show me Abraham predicting 969 00:52:39.159 --> 00:52:42.639 the rise of Moses, then there's absolutely no way or 970 00:52:42.920 --> 00:52:45.280 basis to believe in the fact that we should accept 971 00:52:45.360 --> 00:52:49.199 Moses if we followed Abraham. I'm saying, let's say we 972 00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:51.880 were existing back then the time of Abraham, right, or 973 00:52:52.119 --> 00:52:56.440 or theoretically we could do this assumed thing like if 974 00:52:56.760 --> 00:53:00.800 it's true that there's progressive revelation, then I already addressed 975 00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:03.920 this in the open statement already said that Jeremiah understood 976 00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:07.840 more than what was understood in the early text of scripture. 977 00:53:08.159 --> 00:53:11.719 It's not obscure passages. It's your assumption that a texts 978 00:53:11.760 --> 00:53:14.599 obscure because it's maybe something you had not thought of 979 00:53:15.440 --> 00:53:18.360 I already. I mean, these are multiple texts in Exodus, 980 00:53:18.519 --> 00:53:22.480 the burning bush and this being worshiped right, and then 981 00:53:22.599 --> 00:53:26.079 later it's identified in Exodus twenty two the burning bush. 982 00:53:26.119 --> 00:53:28.840 Excuse me, extra twenty three, Extra three and extra twenty three. 983 00:53:29.159 --> 00:53:31.599 It identifies the angel of the Lord as what's in 984 00:53:31.719 --> 00:53:37.079 the burning bush. That's not a flippant obscure thing. That's 985 00:53:37.119 --> 00:53:41.079 a very powerful attestation to the fact that those theophanes 986 00:53:41.679 --> 00:53:48.079 are not created angelic forms. They are a separate hypostasis, right, 987 00:53:48.239 --> 00:53:51.599 a difference from the Father, my Lord said, the Lord 988 00:53:51.719 --> 00:53:53.920 said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until 989 00:53:53.960 --> 00:53:56.920 I make your enemies your footstool. As Jesus said, who 990 00:53:57.079 --> 00:53:59.800 was David talking about? Who was David talking to? Jesus 991 00:53:59.800 --> 00:54:02.840 said this to the people that like you who don't 992 00:54:02.840 --> 00:54:04.880 believe that Jesus was saying that he was divine and 993 00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:07.519 he was the Messiah. In fact, Jesus says this countless 994 00:54:07.559 --> 00:54:10.480 times to the Pharisees. You're making the exact same arguments 995 00:54:10.519 --> 00:54:12.920 that the Pharisees made. And it's funny because Jesus says 996 00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:15.199 the exact same things that he would say to you. 997 00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:18.239 He says, who is David talking about? Now, guess what 998 00:54:18.639 --> 00:54:21.239 Jews believe. That's a Messianic passage. They've always said it 999 00:54:21.280 --> 00:54:23.760 was a Messianic passage. You say that, where do we 1000 00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:26.679 see this prediction of Jesus and this suffering dying savior 1001 00:54:26.960 --> 00:54:29.920 in all of the psalms where David says he's suffering 1002 00:54:29.960 --> 00:54:31.679 and he's dying and he knows that God's going to 1003 00:54:31.719 --> 00:54:36.360 redeem him. All of those psalms are predictions of the death, burial, 1004 00:54:36.519 --> 00:54:39.599 and resurrection of Christ. In Hoseiah sixth there is the 1005 00:54:39.679 --> 00:54:42.880 statement that on the third day he will revive us, 1006 00:54:43.119 --> 00:54:44.840 he will save us from our sins. Now, I know 1007 00:54:44.880 --> 00:54:47.480 you're going to say, that's just talking about Israel, the 1008 00:54:47.559 --> 00:54:50.119 son of Man who as sins before the ancient of days. 1009 00:54:50.280 --> 00:54:52.800 That's just talking about Israel. And what was your source 1010 00:54:52.840 --> 00:54:56.440 for that? Your source was the arbitrary ad hoc scholars 1011 00:54:57.119 --> 00:54:59.960 that don't believe what we believe. By the way, Raymond 1012 00:55:00.239 --> 00:55:03.000 does not believe in the Trinity like we believe. Orthodox 1013 00:55:03.079 --> 00:55:08.639 trinitarianism is not like evangelicalism. It's distinct. There's no religion 1014 00:55:08.679 --> 00:55:11.599 in the world that has the Orthodox conception of who 1015 00:55:11.679 --> 00:55:15.760 God is and what his the distinction between his actions 1016 00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:19.400 and his essence are. I gave you a whole, simple 1017 00:55:19.880 --> 00:55:24.119 explanation and question about the distinction between God's energies and 1018 00:55:24.199 --> 00:55:27.800 his actions and creation. You completely ignored it. You completely 1019 00:55:27.880 --> 00:55:31.199 ignored the question. If God's actions are the same as 1020 00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:34.360 his essence, then his action of creating the world is 1021 00:55:34.440 --> 00:55:37.559 eternal just like his essence. That means creation is eternal. 1022 00:55:37.920 --> 00:55:41.719 That means creation takes on a divine attribute. You didn't 1023 00:55:41.719 --> 00:55:43.599 answer this. You just moved on and all you did 1024 00:55:43.760 --> 00:55:47.320 was state what the Surahs say the divine essence was. 1025 00:55:48.159 --> 00:55:50.639 I already said that's what the divine essence was. I agree, 1026 00:55:50.679 --> 00:55:53.320 I stated that in your view, you're going to say this. 1027 00:55:53.800 --> 00:55:57.360 You did exactly what I said you would do. Now again, 1028 00:55:57.679 --> 00:56:00.079 just appealing to Raymond Brown. Appealing to those people, Well, 1029 00:56:00.320 --> 00:56:04.639 that's appeals to authority. That's a fallacy. Your whole position 1030 00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:07.519 is based on dialectics. That's what stands out to me. 1031 00:56:07.679 --> 00:56:10.119 For example, you look at a lot of texts that 1032 00:56:10.679 --> 00:56:13.400 show the humanity of Christ. Are you not aware that 1033 00:56:13.480 --> 00:56:15.679 we believe that Jesus had a fully human nature. This 1034 00:56:15.840 --> 00:56:17.639 is what the incarnation is in order for us to 1035 00:56:17.719 --> 00:56:19.800 be restored and save from the power of death and corruption. 1036 00:56:20.280 --> 00:56:23.000 We believe that the Son of God intentionally took on 1037 00:56:23.280 --> 00:56:26.320 our nature in order that our nature might be restored 1038 00:56:26.440 --> 00:56:29.679 to immorality, to the immortality that God always intended us 1039 00:56:29.679 --> 00:56:32.480 to have before the fall. So, for example, in John seventeen, 1040 00:56:32.559 --> 00:56:35.320 when John talks about the glory that he shared with 1041 00:56:35.440 --> 00:56:37.440 the Father before the foundation of the world. Oh wait, 1042 00:56:37.480 --> 00:56:40.480 I thought Jesus doesn't have a pre existence. One John seventeen, 1043 00:56:40.480 --> 00:56:42.920 he says that the glory that he shared before the 1044 00:56:42.960 --> 00:56:45.199 foundation of the world with the Father is what he 1045 00:56:45.280 --> 00:56:49.400 intends to communicate to his followers to church. And as 1046 00:56:49.440 --> 00:56:51.639 you read through the High Priestly Prayer of John seventeen, 1047 00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:55.440 you'll notice that he also consistently refers to the premiscy 1048 00:56:55.519 --> 00:56:57.880 of the monarchia or the archae, the god Head of 1049 00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:00.920 the Father, and the Spirit whose he's whom he's going 1050 00:57:00.960 --> 00:57:03.079 to sin. Right as it moves into the later chapters 1051 00:57:03.199 --> 00:57:06.159 through that I priestly prayer. So all through John seventeen 1052 00:57:06.440 --> 00:57:09.480 eighteen and so forth you see the trinity everywhere present. 1053 00:57:09.599 --> 00:57:12.519 Now you say, where is this clear explication of the Trinity. 1054 00:57:12.800 --> 00:57:16.559 I just told you that there's an idea of a 1055 00:57:16.639 --> 00:57:19.159 multiplicity in relationship to God in the Old Testament from 1056 00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:22.639 the beginning, from Genesis. Rabbis were debating this before the 1057 00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:25.760 coming of Christ. They were debating the fact that there's 1058 00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:28.000 a multiplicity in the God at how do we explain 1059 00:57:28.039 --> 00:57:30.519 and understand this? So you're actually wrong to say that 1060 00:57:30.599 --> 00:57:35.119 there is a strict unitive view even in Judaism. Philo 1061 00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:38.159 is an example of this. Philoh didn't understand. He couldn't 1062 00:57:38.199 --> 00:57:41.320 conceive of this right. And again there's a progressive revelation. 1063 00:57:41.440 --> 00:57:45.719 You cited the supposed disjunction between what the early Church 1064 00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:49.159 and followers of Jesus believed about Jesus, even though there 1065 00:57:49.159 --> 00:57:52.199 are countless examples. For example, again throughout the Gospel of John, 1066 00:57:52.239 --> 00:57:53.920 and the Gospel of John is not the only one. 1067 00:57:54.400 --> 00:57:57.960 There are multiple situations where Jesus says that He's fulfillment 1068 00:57:58.400 --> 00:58:00.400 of all of these things. He says, Moses, what about me? 1069 00:58:00.440 --> 00:58:01.880 You search the scriptures because you think that is in 1070 00:58:02.280 --> 00:58:04.760 that you have eternal life when it is Moses that 1071 00:58:04.880 --> 00:58:07.840 wrote about me. Everything that Moses is writing is about me. 1072 00:58:08.320 --> 00:58:09.880 And one thing I've noticed in your debate that you 1073 00:58:10.039 --> 00:58:13.000 have not seemed to grasp is that there's a progression 1074 00:58:13.159 --> 00:58:15.320 not just through revelation, and not just to what Jesus 1075 00:58:15.400 --> 00:58:18.119 came to teach, but to the whole New Testament period, 1076 00:58:18.440 --> 00:58:22.639 this transition period that it's sometimes called in theology, from 1077 00:58:22.679 --> 00:58:24.800 the birth of Christ all the way up to the 1078 00:58:24.840 --> 00:58:26.840 destruction of the Temple in seventy eight. You seem to 1079 00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:30.079 be completely unaware of this. The destruction of the temple 1080 00:58:30.440 --> 00:58:33.800 is the end of the Mosaic administration in terms of 1081 00:58:33.840 --> 00:58:40.719 its ceremonial application. Jesus himself, Jeremiah, the prophets Amous, they 1082 00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:44.280 make the distinction between the moral and the ceremonial commands. Okay, 1083 00:58:44.719 --> 00:58:47.199 and if the gentiles are going to be included into 1084 00:58:47.280 --> 00:58:50.159 the church, which is what the predictions of countless Old 1085 00:58:50.199 --> 00:58:54.239 Testament prophecies are. Jeremiah three, Hoseaiah one, ten and eleven, 1086 00:58:54.679 --> 00:58:58.199 Malachi one, eleven and twelve, he back A two, fourteen 1087 00:58:58.199 --> 00:59:02.440 and fifteen, Jeremiah three, fourteen to eighteen, Ezekiel forty seven 1088 00:59:02.519 --> 00:59:05.159 twenty one to twenty three, Joel three and Acts two 1089 00:59:06.039 --> 00:59:09.719 fulfilled in Acts two Isaiah eleven one through ten, Jeremiah 1090 00:59:09.760 --> 00:59:14.079 twenty five, eighteen sixteen, nineteen through twenty, Jeremiah thirty eight, 1091 00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:17.159 thirty one to thirty four, Micah four one through four, 1092 00:59:17.400 --> 00:59:21.079 Zechariah two fifteen, Zechariah eight twenty one to twenty three, 1093 00:59:21.280 --> 00:59:23.760 the latter sections in chapters of Isaiah. As you mentioned, 1094 00:59:24.199 --> 00:59:27.679 they're all believed in Judaism to be Messianic prophecies. And 1095 00:59:27.760 --> 00:59:30.920 what do they describe when the Messiah comes? They'd say 1096 00:59:30.960 --> 00:59:35.440 that the distinctive mark that the world will know when 1097 00:59:35.480 --> 00:59:39.679 the Messiah comes is that the gentile nations will begin 1098 00:59:39.880 --> 00:59:44.400 to worship and honor the God of Israel. Now, when 1099 00:59:44.480 --> 00:59:47.559 Jesus came, he says in the gospels, even in the 1100 00:59:47.599 --> 00:59:50.440 Gospels that you don't accept, but even in the synoptic 1101 00:59:50.519 --> 00:59:53.199 Gospels Matth in Luke twenty one. In Matthew twenty four, 1102 00:59:53.599 --> 00:59:57.239 he says that when you see Jerusalem destroyed, then you 1103 00:59:57.280 --> 00:59:59.280 will know that the kingdom is going to the Gentiles. 1104 00:59:59.320 --> 01:00:02.320 He says in Luke twenty that's exactly what happened in 1105 01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:05.800 seventy a d In seventy eight, just as Josephus described 1106 01:00:05.920 --> 01:00:10.800 as an eyewitness, the temple was destroyed, Christians fled. Christianity 1107 01:00:10.880 --> 01:00:13.840 spread to the Roman Empire. It spread throughout the Empire, 1108 01:00:13.880 --> 01:00:17.360 and the in gathering of all of these Messianic prophecies 1109 01:00:17.920 --> 01:00:20.199 from the minor and major profits all the way back 1110 01:00:20.199 --> 01:00:24.119 to Genesis to Abraham Justis twelve fifteen seventeen, that all 1111 01:00:24.199 --> 01:00:26.000 the nations of the earth will be drawn into this 1112 01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:30.159 kingdom that completely destroys your entire position and proves that 1113 01:00:30.199 --> 01:00:31.000 he was the Messiah. 1114 01:00:33.519 --> 01:00:35.840 Jake, can I can you just give me one minute please? 1115 01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:38.280 I need to have a quick comfort break. Yeah, it's 1116 01:00:38.280 --> 01:00:47.000 all right, Yeah, Yeah, that's fine, Yes, all right. 1117 01:00:47.079 --> 01:00:50.400 So we've got some good questions here. We're going to 1118 01:00:50.440 --> 01:00:56.599 get to those here in a minute. I was getting 1119 01:00:56.679 --> 01:00:58.480 I felt like a preacher there. I was starting to 1120 01:00:58.480 --> 01:01:01.800 feel like krefflow Dollar, like a street preacher, like not 1121 01:01:01.880 --> 01:01:07.599 kreplow Dollar. I'm joking, but I was getting animated there. 1122 01:01:08.119 --> 01:01:10.599 I'll tell you what, eight minutes. I didn't really think 1123 01:01:10.639 --> 01:01:12.599 about what kind of time frame I would set up, 1124 01:01:13.280 --> 01:01:15.599 you know, when we agreed to do this. Eight minutes 1125 01:01:15.960 --> 01:01:17.800 is man, I'll tell you what that flies by, So 1126 01:01:17.880 --> 01:01:21.360 I like, I write all these notes down and you know, 1127 01:01:21.440 --> 01:01:25.079 the eight minutes just like it's over. So if if 1128 01:01:25.119 --> 01:01:27.280 you are listening to this and you want to go back, 1129 01:01:27.320 --> 01:01:29.320 I would I would say listen to this again, because 1130 01:01:29.360 --> 01:01:34.360 we're both kind of having to fly quickly through addressing 1131 01:01:34.400 --> 01:01:36.159 a whole lot of topics, and I'm trying to go 1132 01:01:36.239 --> 01:01:41.119 as fast as i can into to reach his points. 1133 01:01:42.239 --> 01:01:44.719 So you know, I would I would suggest for people listening, 1134 01:01:44.760 --> 01:01:46.480 you know, you might want to re listen to our 1135 01:01:46.519 --> 01:01:48.639 debate here because we are covering a lot of topics. 1136 01:01:48.960 --> 01:01:51.800 It almost feels like a rapid fire. So are you 1137 01:01:51.840 --> 01:01:55.599 would you like to go yes? Thank you for that. Jay. 1138 01:01:55.639 --> 01:01:58.199 I think it's been a misunderstanding about one thing we Muslims. 1139 01:01:58.239 --> 01:02:00.320 As we as Muslims, believe that Jesus. So I have 1140 01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:03.880 no problem whatsoever with prophecies of the Messiah, and that's 1141 01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:06.920 not my issue here about my authority. By the way, 1142 01:02:06.960 --> 01:02:09.760 my authority is God and his word, his speech in 1143 01:02:09.840 --> 01:02:12.840 the Koran, and the prophet Mohammad. So I just want 1144 01:02:12.880 --> 01:02:16.079 to clear up where my pre oppositions are. Shouldn't be surprising. 1145 01:02:16.719 --> 01:02:18.599 I don't presuppose the Bible. We have today is the 1146 01:02:18.639 --> 01:02:20.800 word of God, that Islam. The Koran says it's been 1147 01:02:20.840 --> 01:02:25.000 corrupted and changed. The only uncorrupted, only unchanged revelation we 1148 01:02:25.119 --> 01:02:29.360 have that still exists is the Koran. So that's my authority. 1149 01:02:29.840 --> 01:02:31.760 And if I contract anything in the Koran, then i'm 1150 01:02:31.840 --> 01:02:35.079 what I'm. What I say is to be disregarded. Just 1151 01:02:35.119 --> 01:02:36.840 to try, I have made some notes, which I should 1152 01:02:36.840 --> 01:02:38.920 have done earlier, but just to remind me of some thing. 1153 01:02:38.960 --> 01:02:42.480 As you said, I reject this idea progressive revelation. I 1154 01:02:42.519 --> 01:02:45.440 don't think there's anything in the Jewish scriptures suggesting that 1155 01:02:45.519 --> 01:02:48.039 God's gone to disclose that he's no longer one God, 1156 01:02:48.079 --> 01:02:50.000 but he now can become three in one God. Or 1157 01:02:50.639 --> 01:02:53.480 I don't buy this progressive I think that's a device 1158 01:02:53.559 --> 01:02:57.320 that's been invented by Christians to account for the discontinuity, 1159 01:02:57.480 --> 01:03:01.400 the radical discontinuity between their beliefs as we see in 1160 01:03:01.400 --> 01:03:03.800 the New Testament and elsewhere and the Jewish scriptures. So 1161 01:03:03.840 --> 01:03:06.480 I think that's a device to, oh, well, you weren't 1162 01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:09.119 told really about the truth about God until that the 1163 01:03:09.239 --> 01:03:11.360 accounts of Nicea came along, and then we realized that 1164 01:03:11.440 --> 01:03:16.119 Jesus was God. I don't buy that. In terms of worship, 1165 01:03:16.400 --> 01:03:18.599 I'm just a scattergan approach here, because you mentioned these 1166 01:03:18.639 --> 01:03:20.719 things in a fairly kind of arbitrary way. It seemed 1167 01:03:21.000 --> 01:03:24.079 worship is a tricky term. In the Bible, it had 1168 01:03:24.119 --> 01:03:26.920 a much broader application than it does today, where worship 1169 01:03:27.079 --> 01:03:30.599 is normally understood to be exclusively reserved for God. Then 1170 01:03:31.400 --> 01:03:33.440 even in the Greek of the New Testament Pross and Nusikos, 1171 01:03:33.800 --> 01:03:37.239 it meant obedience. You do abeyance to someone, and you 1172 01:03:37.320 --> 01:03:39.239 could do it to rulers. People did it to Jesus, 1173 01:03:39.920 --> 01:03:42.920 Sarah did it to Abraham. In the separagains of the 1174 01:03:43.000 --> 01:03:45.599 Old Testament, this is not something that's reserved for God alone. 1175 01:03:45.880 --> 01:03:48.199 And indeed the word God itself is reserved for human 1176 01:03:48.280 --> 01:03:50.800 beings in the Old Testament, like Psalm forty five and 1177 01:03:51.079 --> 01:03:54.400 Isaiah nine and so on. And in Jewish literature you 1178 01:03:54.519 --> 01:03:59.280 mentioned Philo, Actually he calls Moses God. You're probably nervous already. 1179 01:04:00.159 --> 01:04:02.960 So this language of divinity is quite promiscuously used, both 1180 01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:06.559 in the Bible and in other literature. And we have 1181 01:04:06.639 --> 01:04:08.679 that in common with the great co Roman world, where 1182 01:04:08.679 --> 01:04:11.840 they believed in divinities and intermediaries between the One High 1183 01:04:11.920 --> 01:04:15.000 God and human beings. So I'm not surprised that Jesus 1184 01:04:15.079 --> 01:04:17.519 came to be called divine. Ultimately is very much the 1185 01:04:17.639 --> 01:04:20.920 thing you did in the ancient world to hero figures 1186 01:04:20.960 --> 01:04:24.239 of religious figures. You proclaim them to be divine that 1187 01:04:24.320 --> 01:04:27.840 haven't all over the place coming back. And you also 1188 01:04:27.960 --> 01:04:31.679 made about Psalm one hundred and ten, which is as 1189 01:04:31.760 --> 01:04:34.880 you say, are very frequently cited Psalm and frequently misunderstood 1190 01:04:34.920 --> 01:04:38.000 sum by Christians. I'm looking at the new revised standard version, 1191 01:04:38.039 --> 01:04:41.480 which is the version the academics prefer to use. That's 1192 01:04:41.519 --> 01:04:44.639 probably a black mark against them. But anyway, it says 1193 01:04:44.679 --> 01:04:46.480 he the Lord says to my Lord, sit at my 1194 01:04:46.599 --> 01:04:48.840 right hand until I make a footstool of your enemies. 1195 01:04:49.159 --> 01:04:51.159 The word the first instance of the word lawd though, 1196 01:04:51.199 --> 01:04:55.039 is in capital letters, suggesting what it means the petrogrammaton 1197 01:04:55.079 --> 01:04:57.800 as you know, the Yahweh. The second lord in that 1198 01:04:57.920 --> 01:05:00.880 center is in lower case letters, meaning a lord in 1199 01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:03.480 a broader sense. So that could be Master, it could 1200 01:05:03.480 --> 01:05:05.480 be teacher, it could be Messiah, it could be any 1201 01:05:05.800 --> 01:05:10.679 human being. So to reinterpret this passage in its Hebrew context, 1202 01:05:10.760 --> 01:05:14.639 these are Hebrew words. It says God says to his Messiah. 1203 01:05:15.239 --> 01:05:18.320 It's not saying God is not talking about plurality within 1204 01:05:18.400 --> 01:05:20.360 god Head. And I know Christians interpret it that way, 1205 01:05:20.719 --> 01:05:23.239 but the original it is an assurance of victory for 1206 01:05:23.320 --> 01:05:26.400 God's priest king. That's the original context. The Psalm of 1207 01:05:26.519 --> 01:05:28.639 David has nothing to do with the prophecy of the fire. 1208 01:05:28.920 --> 01:05:33.159 Is God talking to David? Actually you made the claim. Well, 1209 01:05:33.280 --> 01:05:34.840 come back to that claim you made. I just want 1210 01:05:34.880 --> 01:05:37.360 to read you something here. But Paul said, which comes 1211 01:05:37.400 --> 01:05:40.360 to another the problem for me. I've read this before. 1212 01:05:40.400 --> 01:05:43.679 Psalm fifteen, verse three and four. It says I had 1213 01:05:43.719 --> 01:05:46.400 it on to you as a first importance what I 1214 01:05:46.519 --> 01:05:49.760 received that Christ died for our sins and accordance with 1215 01:05:49.840 --> 01:05:52.280 the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he 1216 01:05:52.440 --> 01:05:55.440 was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures. 1217 01:05:56.320 --> 01:05:57.920 And then it goes on it's that bit there which 1218 01:05:58.039 --> 01:06:01.639 constantly refacing the scriptures. And you made the astonishing claim 1219 01:06:01.679 --> 01:06:04.320 to me that all of this palems contain the prediction 1220 01:06:04.440 --> 01:06:07.440 of the death and resurrection of Jesus. Actually, none of 1221 01:06:07.480 --> 01:06:10.519 the psalms at all claim any of that. But that 1222 01:06:10.760 --> 01:06:14.079 is called ester Jesus or icee Jesus where you read 1223 01:06:14.159 --> 01:06:16.079 stuff in if you read all the psalms in the 1224 01:06:16.199 --> 01:06:19.840 historical or literary context, the psalms that you think refer 1225 01:06:19.880 --> 01:06:22.880 to Jesus refer to David, refer to people at the 1226 01:06:22.920 --> 01:06:24.840 live at the time, none of them. And there's no 1227 01:06:24.920 --> 01:06:27.599 way in the Old Testament anywhere that says that Christ 1228 01:06:27.639 --> 01:06:30.719 would die for our sins. Know ways does it say 1229 01:06:30.760 --> 01:06:32.599 that he'd be buried? No ways does it say he 1230 01:06:32.719 --> 01:06:35.599 was raised on the third day anywhere. And this is 1231 01:06:35.679 --> 01:06:38.400 acknowledged by scholars, by Christian scholars. I know you don't 1232 01:06:38.480 --> 01:06:41.960 like them, but anyway, this is acknowledged by your own scholars, 1233 01:06:42.039 --> 01:06:45.320 so that this is a bizarre claim to make. I 1234 01:06:45.440 --> 01:06:47.519 come back to my awesome other state where I said 1235 01:06:47.519 --> 01:06:50.840 that the Nativity narratives, which talk about the actual birth 1236 01:06:50.920 --> 01:06:54.159 of Jesus and the pregnancy of Mary and so on, I, Matthew, 1237 01:06:54.480 --> 01:06:58.320 and Luke do not have any intimation at all of 1238 01:06:58.480 --> 01:07:02.519 an incarnation. These are precisely the passages where you would 1239 01:07:02.599 --> 01:07:07.440 expect a Christian theologian or Christian writer if they believed that, 1240 01:07:07.880 --> 01:07:10.719 to actually refer to the incarnation. There's no reference to 1241 01:07:10.719 --> 01:07:13.320 the incarnation in the Gospel of Luke in the Nativity 1242 01:07:13.440 --> 01:07:17.599 narratives or anywhere else. No reference of Matthew. And of 1243 01:07:17.679 --> 01:07:19.519 course it's not mentioned in Mark because he doesn't heaven 1244 01:07:19.559 --> 01:07:22.199 Nativity in narrative. So why do we say this Because 1245 01:07:22.280 --> 01:07:25.360 it shows that the idea of the incarnation, it doesn't 1246 01:07:25.400 --> 01:07:27.400 exist out of three in the four Gospels, even though 1247 01:07:27.400 --> 01:07:29.599 they would have mentioned it in the context of his birth. 1248 01:07:30.119 --> 01:07:32.840 John mentioned it is the very last one to be written, 1249 01:07:33.079 --> 01:07:36.360 and it has this kind of cosmic Christ who comes 1250 01:07:36.400 --> 01:07:38.760 to earth like a visitive amount of space. It spends 1251 01:07:38.800 --> 01:07:41.960 a brief time amongst us, and then that goes back 1252 01:07:42.039 --> 01:07:46.599 to Heaven again, very different from Mark, very different from Luke. 1253 01:07:47.159 --> 01:07:49.280 It's a very different kind of feel, which is why 1254 01:07:49.360 --> 01:07:52.519 you have to choose Historically, scholars have to choose which 1255 01:07:52.599 --> 01:07:55.079 is more likely to be the historical Jesus, and they're 1256 01:07:55.159 --> 01:07:59.360 all chosen the earlier gospels, not John for the basis 1257 01:07:59.440 --> 01:08:05.000 of their theology. So and what was the other incarnation? 1258 01:08:05.239 --> 01:08:08.679 So the incarnation is not taught in Matthew, Mark and Luke. 1259 01:08:09.280 --> 01:08:13.679 I do come back to this passage in Acts because 1260 01:08:13.800 --> 01:08:16.760 it's not just that you told me in response to 1261 01:08:16.840 --> 01:08:19.600 Peter's sermon in Acts, but we believe Jesus is God, 1262 01:08:20.000 --> 01:08:23.560 man and God. Yeah, but Peter doesn't. Peter doesn't say that. 1263 01:08:24.039 --> 01:08:26.359 And if he was God, surely that would be something 1264 01:08:26.399 --> 01:08:28.600 he would mention you that it Israelites, listen to what 1265 01:08:28.640 --> 01:08:30.680 I have to say about Jesus. He was a man 1266 01:08:31.039 --> 01:08:33.760 tested to you by God with these are power, ones 1267 01:08:33.800 --> 01:08:35.920 and signs that God did through him among you as 1268 01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:39.520 you yourself. Now, if Jesus being God was that important, 1269 01:08:39.920 --> 01:08:42.720 which is absolutely central, he would have mentioned it. He 1270 01:08:42.880 --> 01:08:46.159 had no belief that Jesus was God. He never mentions that. 1271 01:08:46.239 --> 01:08:48.920 He he says he was a man that tested by God. 1272 01:08:49.079 --> 01:08:51.960 And then the end he talks about God doing much Jesus, 1273 01:08:52.039 --> 01:08:55.279 that God made him a clier. But Jesus was God. 1274 01:08:55.359 --> 01:08:57.600 He wouldn't talk like that. He would say, oh, well, 1275 01:08:57.920 --> 01:09:00.239 you know the second person of Trinity. And and also 1276 01:09:00.279 --> 01:09:02.680 you slightly misrepresent Orthodox theology if I may be so 1277 01:09:02.800 --> 01:09:05.800 bold as to say, Orthodox theology does teach that Jesus 1278 01:09:05.920 --> 01:09:09.199 is God if you accept the counsel of Nicea. And 1279 01:09:09.239 --> 01:09:11.720 I'm aware of the philiquay course, but that's not relevant here. 1280 01:09:12.119 --> 01:09:14.720 The counsel of Nicia clearly says that Jesus God from 1281 01:09:14.800 --> 01:09:17.920 God light from Light the Counts of Chelsenden is very 1282 01:09:17.960 --> 01:09:21.920 clear that Jesus is God, and yet Peter doesn't attest 1283 01:09:21.960 --> 01:09:24.600 to this belief. Neither does Paul, who says that Jesus 1284 01:09:24.640 --> 01:09:27.239 has a God, and Jesus himself says that I have 1285 01:09:27.479 --> 01:09:29.680 a God. I am returned to your Father and my father, 1286 01:09:29.760 --> 01:09:32.239 your God and my God. Now, there are a few 1287 01:09:32.640 --> 01:09:35.039 marginal and late statements in the New Testament which do 1288 01:09:35.159 --> 01:09:38.159 say Jesus God. I don't doubt that Jesus is called God. 1289 01:09:38.239 --> 01:09:39.920 I'm not like some of those Muslims or probably all 1290 01:09:39.920 --> 01:09:41.960 the Muslims I know actually who say, oh, I doesn't 1291 01:09:41.960 --> 01:09:43.880 say Jesus God anywhere in the Bible. Of course it does, 1292 01:09:44.600 --> 01:09:48.000 but they are obscure and marginal and late, like Titus 1293 01:09:48.119 --> 01:09:51.399 and so on. That they're not in the earliest Jesus material. 1294 01:09:51.439 --> 01:09:53.960 They're not the dominant theme of the New Testament, which 1295 01:09:54.000 --> 01:09:59.640 is Jesus is the Messiah. Right anyway, Can we change 1296 01:09:59.680 --> 01:10:02.840 the form now, because conversational thing. 1297 01:10:02.800 --> 01:10:07.159 Or nat I want to give my eight minute response 1298 01:10:07.199 --> 01:10:09.640 and then we can change the format. Is that? Okay? 1299 01:10:10.119 --> 01:10:10.600 Go ahead? 1300 01:10:12.439 --> 01:10:20.720 All right? So again I think you are restating the 1301 01:10:20.760 --> 01:10:24.640 position and not understanding the different critiques that I've given 1302 01:10:24.680 --> 01:10:28.359 at what you're saying. So the fact that you, on 1303 01:10:28.479 --> 01:10:30.960 the one hand, will cite a section of what Peter 1304 01:10:31.119 --> 01:10:34.960 says and you'll say this is what Peter taught, then 1305 01:10:35.000 --> 01:10:39.359 you turn around and say in other areas, it's teaching 1306 01:10:39.439 --> 01:10:43.720 that Christ is God. You have a completely arbitrary picking 1307 01:10:43.800 --> 01:10:47.079 and choosing of which text you're going to accept and 1308 01:10:47.159 --> 01:10:49.880 to pit them against the other texts, when you know 1309 01:10:50.039 --> 01:10:52.560 full well, having been previously Christian, that that's not what 1310 01:10:52.720 --> 01:10:55.640 we teach. We don't teach that because one tax talks 1311 01:10:55.680 --> 01:11:00.119 about the the manhood, that Jesus assumed that therefore or 1312 01:11:00.279 --> 01:11:03.640 it proves that he's only man. This is a really 1313 01:11:03.840 --> 01:11:08.439 simplistic and dodgy way to do exegesis, which you know better. 1314 01:11:08.680 --> 01:11:11.039 You know that Christianity doesn't operate that way. And I 1315 01:11:11.159 --> 01:11:13.319 guarantee you that we could take the Quran and we 1316 01:11:13.359 --> 01:11:16.960 could find one passage that says something about a law 1317 01:11:17.039 --> 01:11:19.000 that he did X, Y Z, and then we could 1318 01:11:19.000 --> 01:11:22.560 absoluteize that and say that therefore he does nothing else. 1319 01:11:23.159 --> 01:11:26.840 But you operate dialectically because you've bought into dialectics. Higher 1320 01:11:26.920 --> 01:11:31.640 criticism is based on Marcianism, gnosticism dialectics. Ultimately, it's based 1321 01:11:31.680 --> 01:11:34.119 on the assumption that Welhausen had that the Old Testament 1322 01:11:34.199 --> 01:11:36.039 God could not be the same God in the New Testament. 1323 01:11:36.199 --> 01:11:38.680 That was a presupposition that he had that he never questioned. 1324 01:11:39.199 --> 01:11:43.000 You have similar presubositions. In fact, you contradicted yourself outright. 1325 01:11:43.079 --> 01:11:45.319 You said that you have no problem with all of 1326 01:11:45.359 --> 01:11:49.039 those prophecies being prophecies of the Messiah. And then you 1327 01:11:49.119 --> 01:11:51.800 turn around and said, but wait a minute, when David 1328 01:11:51.920 --> 01:11:54.880 is writing in the Psalms, it's only about David. Did 1329 01:11:54.960 --> 01:11:57.640 you believe that those prophecies and those texts are about 1330 01:11:57.640 --> 01:12:00.079 the Messiah? They don't deny they were talking about Dad. 1331 01:12:00.600 --> 01:12:02.840 Of course they're talking about David. We know David wrote 1332 01:12:02.840 --> 01:12:06.800 those songs. That doesn't exclude that they're not Messianic prophecies 1333 01:12:06.920 --> 01:12:09.159 or types. And in every debate where people have talked 1334 01:12:09.159 --> 01:12:12.239 about typology to you, you ignore it. You said, you 1335 01:12:12.359 --> 01:12:14.520 act like there's no such thing as typology, that that 1336 01:12:14.680 --> 01:12:17.119 typology doesn't show or predict anything. In fact, have many 1337 01:12:17.159 --> 01:12:20.640 many essays on typology. Where we see in the Book 1338 01:12:20.680 --> 01:12:23.199 of Numbers, we see Moses lifting up the serpent on 1339 01:12:23.239 --> 01:12:25.920 a pole. What does Jesus say to Nicodemus, Jesus says 1340 01:12:25.960 --> 01:12:28.319 that I will be lifted up and raised up just 1341 01:12:28.439 --> 01:12:30.039 like the serpent on the pole. But you say that 1342 01:12:30.520 --> 01:12:32.880 Jesus never said he was going to do this. Over 1343 01:12:32.960 --> 01:12:34.840 and over and over and over throughout this discussion, I 1344 01:12:34.960 --> 01:12:37.960 give you example after example after example, and you go 1345 01:12:38.119 --> 01:12:40.199 to your notes and cite liberal scholars and say that 1346 01:12:40.319 --> 01:12:43.199 that doesn't exist. And you say that, well, you can 1347 01:12:43.239 --> 01:12:46.560 go to some fundamentalist seminary. Look, those are dumb arguments. 1348 01:12:46.600 --> 01:12:48.479 I can make all of those same arguments about you 1349 01:12:48.680 --> 01:12:50.359 and your text. I don't do that, right, did I 1350 01:12:50.479 --> 01:12:53.239 say that? I say, let me find a liberal scholar 1351 01:12:53.560 --> 01:12:57.399 who doubts the original authenticity of what Mohammad said or 1352 01:12:57.439 --> 01:13:00.199 the Koran or these hadiths. And you know full well 1353 01:13:00.319 --> 01:13:02.319 that they do. And there are people who doubt this 1354 01:13:02.560 --> 01:13:05.880 and do higher critical approaches to Islam. So just citing 1355 01:13:05.960 --> 01:13:08.880 higher critics about Christianity, this is a really and this 1356 01:13:08.960 --> 01:13:13.199 is extremely weak argument, and it presupposes unbelief. Now, in 1357 01:13:13.319 --> 01:13:16.039 our worldview, in our paradigm, you can't just come to 1358 01:13:16.119 --> 01:13:19.199 the text and presuppose unbelief because you have to repent 1359 01:13:19.359 --> 01:13:22.000 and you have to experience the text within the context 1360 01:13:22.119 --> 01:13:24.600 of the Church and the liturgy. They don't operate as 1361 01:13:24.680 --> 01:13:26.840 texts on their own. They can only be understood within 1362 01:13:27.439 --> 01:13:31.319 the existential experience of the Church herself historically. And you 1363 01:13:31.359 --> 01:13:33.640 can call that fundamentalism if you want to. But guess what, 1364 01:13:33.840 --> 01:13:37.520 that's a term that was invented to demonize people who 1365 01:13:37.600 --> 01:13:41.199 actually just believe in our creed. I already pointed out earlier. 1366 01:13:41.399 --> 01:13:43.920 You can look at the epistles of Ignatius, you can 1367 01:13:44.000 --> 01:13:46.840 look at Justin Martyr, you can look at Irenaeus, you 1368 01:13:46.920 --> 01:13:49.640 can look at Cyprian, you can look at polycarp you 1369 01:13:49.720 --> 01:13:52.399 can look at all these Apostolic fathers, and they teach 1370 01:13:52.479 --> 01:13:54.319 the deity of Christ, the very thing that you say 1371 01:13:54.479 --> 01:13:59.520 is later kind of absoluteized at Nicea, they absolutely teach this. 1372 01:13:59.680 --> 01:14:01.800 I mean, I've read them all, and anybody who reads them. 1373 01:14:01.760 --> 01:14:04.079 I can give you the only person. 1374 01:14:04.199 --> 01:14:05.800 No no, no, no, no no no, I have four 1375 01:14:05.880 --> 01:14:07.479 minutes left. I never interrupted you. 1376 01:14:08.000 --> 01:14:11.039 But you're saying, you're saying I have four minutes left. 1377 01:14:11.239 --> 01:14:13.680 I didn't interrupt you. You can you keep talking. 1378 01:14:13.720 --> 01:14:15.880 I've read these people too. Don't don't think you've got any. 1379 01:14:15.920 --> 01:14:18.239 I know that's the It's not you don't get to 1380 01:14:18.439 --> 01:14:19.319 the jact that you read. 1381 01:14:19.199 --> 01:14:21.039 These people, I studied these at university? 1382 01:14:22.039 --> 01:14:23.720 Who I studied at university? 1383 01:14:24.000 --> 01:14:25.760 Well, fine, but we'll equal footing. 1384 01:14:27.680 --> 01:14:29.960 Again. Okay, I'm gonna give This is what you do. 1385 01:14:30.079 --> 01:14:31.399 This is what you do to the other people. You 1386 01:14:31.760 --> 01:14:34.359 you interrupt in the middle of their talk. Uh, you 1387 01:14:34.479 --> 01:14:38.239 agreed to let me have my four minutes, so. 1388 01:14:38.359 --> 01:14:40.399 You can have another six minutes. I don't mind. I'm 1389 01:14:40.399 --> 01:14:43.680 not precious about this. You have another six minutes, doesn't 1390 01:14:43.680 --> 01:14:44.000 bother me. 1391 01:14:45.159 --> 01:14:49.600 Okay. So you will find in the Apostolic Canons, Okay, 1392 01:14:49.720 --> 01:14:51.520 you will find in the Shepherd of Hermis, you will 1393 01:14:51.560 --> 01:14:54.159 find in the didti Key, you will find in polycarp 1394 01:14:54.239 --> 01:14:56.920 You will find in the epistles of Ignacious of Antioch that, 1395 01:14:57.359 --> 01:14:59.479 for example, in the Letters to the Ephesians and Letters 1396 01:14:59.479 --> 01:15:02.399 to Romans Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is called our God. 1397 01:15:02.760 --> 01:15:05.439 In a letter to the Smyrneans, chapter ten, He's called 1398 01:15:05.479 --> 01:15:08.319 our God. Okay, this is pretty consistent. I think in 1399 01:15:08.399 --> 01:15:12.359 Ignacious epistles is something like sixteen times Jesus is explicitly 1400 01:15:12.399 --> 01:15:15.399 referred to as God. If you read the writings of 1401 01:15:15.520 --> 01:15:20.159 just Saint Justin Martyr you'll notice that he describes the 1402 01:15:20.279 --> 01:15:23.239 oblation of the liturgy. It's a liturgical service. This is 1403 01:15:23.920 --> 01:15:26.439 one fifty a D. So the things that you think 1404 01:15:26.520 --> 01:15:30.359 are these later accretions invented later, No, are. They're proofs 1405 01:15:30.960 --> 01:15:34.359 of the continuity of Orthodox Christianity. Back to Saint Justin Martyr, 1406 01:15:34.520 --> 01:15:38.600 back to Ignatius, back to Ireineus. Now I want to 1407 01:15:38.640 --> 01:15:40.720 move on to some of the things that you mentioned 1408 01:15:40.840 --> 01:15:43.399 that I didn't get to. You said that the Son 1409 01:15:43.439 --> 01:15:46.039 of God is created. We believe that the Son of 1410 01:15:46.079 --> 01:15:48.840 God is created in its humanity. So again, don't set 1411 01:15:48.920 --> 01:15:51.239 up a dialectic between texts that we believe are talking 1412 01:15:51.319 --> 01:15:54.720 about the full humanity that Christ possessed, but we don't 1413 01:15:54.760 --> 01:15:57.359 exclude the other texts to talk about the full divinity 1414 01:15:57.399 --> 01:15:59.880 of Christ. We doub believe Christ is a human person. 1415 01:16:00.319 --> 01:16:02.920 The text where he talks about his limitations are willful 1416 01:16:03.039 --> 01:16:06.960 limitations that he underwent. So all of those texts are 1417 01:16:07.359 --> 01:16:10.359 arguing against against a strong man. They're only they only 1418 01:16:10.479 --> 01:16:15.000 work on the presubposition that you're correct that Jesus was 1419 01:16:15.199 --> 01:16:18.640 just an apocalyptic preacher the apocalypse that you think he 1420 01:16:18.920 --> 01:16:22.680 mispredicted or didn't get right or whatever. The text misinterpolated. 1421 01:16:23.159 --> 01:16:25.880 They're about seventy a D. Luke twenty one is a 1422 01:16:25.960 --> 01:16:27.840 prediction of what would happen in seventy eight that the 1423 01:16:27.880 --> 01:16:30.600 temple would be destroyed, and it was in seventy eight D. 1424 01:16:31.079 --> 01:16:33.479 That's why from the time of Christ to the time 1425 01:16:33.560 --> 01:16:36.319 of the destruction of the Temple, it's the transition period. So, yes, 1426 01:16:36.359 --> 01:16:39.640 there's going to be decisions about what gentile converts need 1427 01:16:39.720 --> 01:16:41.399 to do when they come into the church. Do they 1428 01:16:41.439 --> 01:16:43.840 need to be circucized? You know you've heard this argument. 1429 01:16:43.920 --> 01:16:47.119 It's settled in Acts fifteen A. Right, So there's a process. 1430 01:16:47.199 --> 01:16:49.000 And even after this period when there's so a lot 1431 01:16:49.000 --> 01:16:51.560 of Jewish converts in the first ten chapters of Acts, 1432 01:16:51.920 --> 01:16:54.039 and even past the first ten chapters of Acts, when 1433 01:16:54.680 --> 01:16:58.439 the message begins to go out to the gentiles from 1434 01:16:58.520 --> 01:17:01.600 Paul and Peter. So what happens is that you have 1435 01:17:01.720 --> 01:17:05.439 this transition period and it becomes abundantly clear. Again, Jesus 1436 01:17:05.520 --> 01:17:09.600 made this abundantly clear and Matthew twenty four in Luke 1437 01:17:09.640 --> 01:17:11.600 twenty one, when you read those two texts together side 1438 01:17:11.600 --> 01:17:13.520 by side, you'll see that he's talking about the destruction 1439 01:17:13.600 --> 01:17:16.600 of the temple that was the doing away, the providential 1440 01:17:16.720 --> 01:17:19.279 doing away. Jesus says, in the parable of wicked mine dressers, 1441 01:17:19.600 --> 01:17:21.600 that that will happen, that the kingdom will be taken 1442 01:17:21.720 --> 01:17:24.399 from the Jews and given to a nation producing the 1443 01:17:24.439 --> 01:17:28.000 fruits thereof, namely all these predictions of the Gentile kingdom 1444 01:17:28.039 --> 01:17:30.479 and the Old Testament, which again you admitted that there's 1445 01:17:30.479 --> 01:17:33.239 all these prophecies about the coming of the Messiah, and 1446 01:17:33.319 --> 01:17:35.079 then you turn around and said, no, they're about David, 1447 01:17:35.079 --> 01:17:37.800 They're not about the Mesiah, they're not Messianic prophecies. You 1448 01:17:37.880 --> 01:17:42.600 completely contradicted yourself soles talking about the actions of God 1449 01:17:42.760 --> 01:17:45.439 and God as the Father. Okay, again, I already told 1450 01:17:45.479 --> 01:17:48.600 you that Jesus has a father. That does not mean 1451 01:17:48.640 --> 01:17:51.520 that there's no trinity. Only on the basis of dialectics, 1452 01:17:51.560 --> 01:17:54.479 which is the basis of your whole philosophical approach. Would 1453 01:17:54.560 --> 01:17:57.720 you think that because there's a distinction, there's a division 1454 01:17:58.520 --> 01:18:00.279 when justin Martin, are you going to try felt what 1455 01:18:00.319 --> 01:18:01.840 does he go to? He goes to the Angel, the 1456 01:18:01.880 --> 01:18:06.680 Lord theophanies. Now you said angels are never ever conceived 1457 01:18:06.720 --> 01:18:09.960 of in that way. The word angel just means messenger. Okay, 1458 01:18:10.079 --> 01:18:13.600 So Jesus is the messenger of Yahweh. He is that messenger. 1459 01:18:14.079 --> 01:18:16.439 So because the term could apply to a human messenger, 1460 01:18:16.960 --> 01:18:18.680 it could apply to an angel in the sense of 1461 01:18:18.720 --> 01:18:21.680 a created angelic being Michael Gabriel, And it could also 1462 01:18:21.720 --> 01:18:24.079 apply to the messenger of God's Covenant as he's called 1463 01:18:24.079 --> 01:18:26.960 the Old Testament. Right, So there's a consistent pattern of 1464 01:18:27.039 --> 01:18:31.000 those Theophanies being worshiped. You can't worship angels anytime in scripture, 1465 01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:32.960 in the Torah, in the Old Testament, somebody worships or 1466 01:18:33.000 --> 01:18:36.520 bowels before an angel, they're rebuked. Can't worship old deities. 1467 01:18:36.560 --> 01:18:39.680 You can't worship your ancestors, that's rebuked, but they're not 1468 01:18:39.880 --> 01:18:42.520 rebuked when they bow down and worship before the Theophanes. 1469 01:18:42.560 --> 01:18:45.319 Now you're gonna say, well, but you know, textual scholarship 1470 01:18:45.399 --> 01:18:49.359 tells us other things, and you know the modern textual critics, 1471 01:18:49.640 --> 01:18:52.159 but you will not allow those same textual critics to 1472 01:18:52.439 --> 01:18:55.399 attack Islam. You will not allow that same approach to 1473 01:18:55.520 --> 01:18:58.600 your religion. It's only that you selectively use these things 1474 01:18:58.640 --> 01:19:00.680 about all religion. Now, guess what I heard. You're referring 1475 01:19:00.760 --> 01:19:03.239 to Mark and you referred to elements I think of 1476 01:19:03.319 --> 01:19:07.560 the documentary hypothesis. You referred to Q or Mark, which 1477 01:19:07.600 --> 01:19:09.359 it used to be the idea that Q is the 1478 01:19:09.439 --> 01:19:13.319 basis of mark. This hypothetical, Uh, you know, earliest text 1479 01:19:13.439 --> 01:19:16.239 or whatever. Are you aware of the shifting sands of 1480 01:19:16.479 --> 01:19:20.159 higher criticism that the theories that were popular fifty years ago, 1481 01:19:20.479 --> 01:19:23.560 one hundred years ago, they're dead. They're not even popular anymore. 1482 01:19:23.680 --> 01:19:25.880 If you go to Yale right now, into their biblical 1483 01:19:26.039 --> 01:19:29.560 section on YouTube, you'll find biblical scholars from Yale, the 1484 01:19:29.680 --> 01:19:32.279 prestige that you worship. You'll find them saying all the 1485 01:19:32.319 --> 01:19:34.960 same things that I'm saying, that that the documentary hypothesis 1486 01:19:35.079 --> 01:19:39.560 has been discarded. So your presupposition is gone, It's not 1487 01:19:39.680 --> 01:19:50.960 even it's not even held anymore. All right, So I 1488 01:19:51.079 --> 01:19:53.720 need to take a we wei break. I'll be right 1489 01:19:53.800 --> 01:19:55.960 back if you would just hold on, hold on the 1490 01:19:56.000 --> 01:19:56.720 fort just for a second. 1491 01:19:57.680 --> 01:20:56.960 Needs to be drinking it, all right, Okay, what's on 1492 01:20:57.039 --> 01:20:57.359 your mind? 1493 01:20:59.039 --> 01:21:02.199 I think that there's an issue here which needs to 1494 01:21:02.279 --> 01:21:04.279 be made clearer, and that is where I'm coming from 1495 01:21:04.359 --> 01:21:07.760 and where you're coming from. And I don't reject where 1496 01:21:07.760 --> 01:21:11.640 you're coming from in the sense of a traditioned, community 1497 01:21:11.760 --> 01:21:17.000 based ecclesial reading of scripture. I understand what you mean 1498 01:21:17.079 --> 01:21:19.159 by that. Obviously, it's a very Catholic idea, of the 1499 01:21:19.239 --> 01:21:22.199 Roman Catholic idea as well. Evangelicals don't think they do it, 1500 01:21:22.279 --> 01:21:23.960 but they are doing it as you and I know 1501 01:21:24.119 --> 01:21:26.359 perfectly well. They have their own tradition, just they don't 1502 01:21:26.359 --> 01:21:29.359 acknowledge it, by which I mean their own way of 1503 01:21:29.520 --> 01:21:33.319 reading scripture, you know, focusing on maybe Paul or particular 1504 01:21:33.399 --> 01:21:37.279 Luther and understanding whatever. Yeah, so that's what you're doing. 1505 01:21:37.319 --> 01:21:39.439 And I understand that, and I'm not saying it's wrong 1506 01:21:40.279 --> 01:21:43.239 per se. It's not where I'm coming from. And I 1507 01:21:43.319 --> 01:21:47.119 think we're cross purposes here because how I see things 1508 01:21:47.880 --> 01:21:52.239 is different. As a Muslim, I view say, the Gospels 1509 01:21:52.319 --> 01:21:56.520 as products of of human beings. I view them as 1510 01:21:56.600 --> 01:21:58.720 like the Hedith literature share we say. I don't regard 1511 01:21:58.760 --> 01:21:59.479 them as revelation. 1512 01:22:00.079 --> 01:22:00.279 You do. 1513 01:22:01.039 --> 01:22:03.520 And this is why we're different. We're coming so when 1514 01:22:03.560 --> 01:22:05.319 I see Luke, for example, I think this is a 1515 01:22:05.399 --> 01:22:08.279 human text written in the first century. It's not revelation. 1516 01:22:08.439 --> 01:22:10.920 It's not inspired by God. Doesn't mean it's false or 1517 01:22:10.960 --> 01:22:14.840 contains only error, but it's to be treated as any 1518 01:22:14.920 --> 01:22:17.079 other ancient texts written by people. Is we have no 1519 01:22:17.199 --> 01:22:20.479 special regard for it at all, Because I explain why 1520 01:22:20.600 --> 01:22:24.640 for us, for Muslims, the Gospel the in Ngel, as 1521 01:22:24.720 --> 01:22:28.000 the crime makes clear, was something given to Jesus. The gospel, 1522 01:22:28.039 --> 01:22:30.399 it is something given to Jesus by God. He preaches 1523 01:22:30.479 --> 01:22:34.640 the in Ingel. These gospels that you revere are written 1524 01:22:34.880 --> 01:22:38.000 not by Jesus. You obviously don't claim they're written by Jesus. 1525 01:22:38.000 --> 01:22:42.319 They're written by other people. So for us is revelation 1526 01:22:42.479 --> 01:22:44.800 itself direct from God, whether be given to Jesus, Mohammad, 1527 01:22:44.880 --> 01:22:47.520 or Moses or whatever. That is the thing that we revere. 1528 01:22:48.439 --> 01:22:51.560 That these are human we as human biographies that are 1529 01:22:51.640 --> 01:22:54.840 not inspired by God. That does not mean they're without value, 1530 01:22:55.199 --> 01:22:57.159 but they have to be critically understood. 1531 01:22:57.640 --> 01:23:00.760 Now, Hiera criticism about Moses hang in a second. 1532 01:23:00.960 --> 01:23:04.439 So when it comes to we also practice higher criticism. 1533 01:23:05.199 --> 01:23:07.560 I don't know this expression, that's very kind of nineteenth century. 1534 01:23:07.720 --> 01:23:11.439 We also practice critics, a critical approach to the Herdeth literature, 1535 01:23:11.720 --> 01:23:13.720 and that this has gone on almost from the beginning. 1536 01:23:13.720 --> 01:23:17.600 There's been a very sophisticated science of criticism where we 1537 01:23:17.720 --> 01:23:19.880 try and sort of what's authentic what isn't. We look 1538 01:23:19.920 --> 01:23:22.520 at the isnab, we look at the mattin the text itself. 1539 01:23:23.279 --> 01:23:26.399 We try and establish the reliability of the transmitters. And 1540 01:23:26.479 --> 01:23:29.880 it's a very sophisticated science. And this is over going 1541 01:23:29.920 --> 01:23:33.800 back from the eighth century onward. So we do practice 1542 01:23:33.880 --> 01:23:38.560 sophisticated critical thinking about the Herdeth and that's been going 1543 01:23:38.600 --> 01:23:41.520 on since virtually since the beginning. But when it comes 1544 01:23:41.560 --> 01:23:43.279 to the Koran, and this is where we're going to 1545 01:23:43.319 --> 01:23:47.720 have to agree to disagree. The Kuran is different because 1546 01:23:48.119 --> 01:23:50.560 we view it. We believe it to be the actual 1547 01:23:50.800 --> 01:23:54.279 speech of God himself. It's not inspired work, it's not 1548 01:23:54.359 --> 01:23:57.760 written by Mohammad at all, although he has a role 1549 01:23:57.800 --> 01:24:00.439 to play in its transmission. But we view the actual 1550 01:24:00.680 --> 01:24:03.800 speech of God, so we view it as something you 1551 01:24:03.920 --> 01:24:08.840 can't practice human criticism of because that would be blasphemous, 1552 01:24:08.960 --> 01:24:10.640 is not appropriate. And now I know you have a 1553 01:24:10.800 --> 01:24:13.039 you don't agree with that, which is fine. So that's 1554 01:24:13.079 --> 01:24:15.359 why I have a different approach to the Koran than 1555 01:24:15.399 --> 01:24:18.840 I would say to the four canonical Gospels, because I 1556 01:24:18.960 --> 01:24:22.760 view them as very different ontologies, very different genres. So 1557 01:24:22.880 --> 01:24:24.720 you may see that as inconsistency for me, it makes 1558 01:24:24.760 --> 01:24:26.720 perfect sense. The Koran is the word of God. It's 1559 01:24:26.800 --> 01:24:28.880 the speech of God. So is the Injured, so is 1560 01:24:28.920 --> 01:24:31.880 the Torahs, so is the the the Psalm, so is 1561 01:24:31.920 --> 01:24:35.520 the book given to Abraham, and so on. And I'm 1562 01:24:35.560 --> 01:24:37.880 not saying that the Bible itself doesn't contain the word 1563 01:24:38.039 --> 01:24:39.520 words of God. But it doesn't. 1564 01:24:39.560 --> 01:24:39.840 In mind. 1565 01:24:39.920 --> 01:24:42.640 You claim to be the word of God as a book. 1566 01:24:43.039 --> 01:24:46.680 But that not a problem because in your in your ecclesiology, 1567 01:24:47.159 --> 01:24:50.479 you have received these texts as word of God, because 1568 01:24:50.520 --> 01:24:52.640 they speak preserably to you as word of God, as 1569 01:24:52.680 --> 01:24:56.039 a church, and so they are inspired for you. But 1570 01:24:56.399 --> 01:25:00.000 that is but that's not something that we as Muslims recognize. 1571 01:25:00.079 --> 01:25:03.239 We see the human authorship of this as the primary characteristic, 1572 01:25:03.520 --> 01:25:05.479 and so we hold no special regard from them as 1573 01:25:05.560 --> 01:25:07.960 texts because they don't claim the revelation from God. 1574 01:25:08.760 --> 01:25:12.399 Well again, hold on, do you accept the higher criticism 1575 01:25:12.520 --> 01:25:13.680 of the Torah and Moses? 1576 01:25:15.439 --> 01:25:16.800 What do you mean by higher criticism? 1577 01:25:17.279 --> 01:25:19.000 You know what I mean? Do you accept the documentary 1578 01:25:19.079 --> 01:25:22.399 hypothesis and the things that the techniques that you're applying 1579 01:25:22.439 --> 01:25:24.479 to the Gospels. Do you accept that same approach to 1580 01:25:25.079 --> 01:25:25.960 the books of Moses? 1581 01:25:27.399 --> 01:25:30.920 The way you have characterized so called high critism, something 1582 01:25:31.000 --> 01:25:35.960 I simply do not recognize. I mean, if you. 1583 01:25:35.960 --> 01:25:38.439 Watch lectures on Yale right now, they're doing higher criticism. 1584 01:25:38.479 --> 01:25:39.239 They talk about. 1585 01:25:40.039 --> 01:25:42.680 Recognize your characterization of it. I know what it is, 1586 01:25:43.079 --> 01:25:44.159 but I don't recognize your Do. 1587 01:25:44.279 --> 01:25:46.640 You accept the documentary hypothesis or the. 1588 01:25:46.640 --> 01:25:50.800 Approach hypothesis JPD. That's what you mean is still that 1589 01:25:50.960 --> 01:25:54.319 the standard is still accepted as thank. 1590 01:25:54.159 --> 01:25:56.640 You for admitting what we are. Now do you accept 1591 01:25:56.680 --> 01:26:01.479 this critical approach the books of absolutely? Okay, how do 1592 01:26:01.520 --> 01:26:05.359 you know the revelation of Moses is true in what area? 1593 01:26:05.399 --> 01:26:06.039 In what area? Is not? 1594 01:26:06.840 --> 01:26:11.159 Excellent question? If I enjoy your attention to the Quran 1595 01:26:11.199 --> 01:26:11.920 which addresses this. 1596 01:26:13.800 --> 01:26:13.920 Right. 1597 01:26:14.359 --> 01:26:16.279 But the Koran tells us precisely that what we. 1598 01:26:16.479 --> 01:26:18.279 Do well the presupposition is the Quran right. 1599 01:26:18.800 --> 01:26:21.000 The Kuran says that the books of the Christians and 1600 01:26:21.039 --> 01:26:26.039 the Jews have been corrupted, and it says in our 1601 01:26:26.119 --> 01:26:28.600 made as the fifth chapter we have sent down to you. 1602 01:26:28.760 --> 01:26:30.800 This is to Muhammad, the book, this crime in truth, 1603 01:26:31.239 --> 01:26:34.199 confirming the scripture that came before it. This is talking 1604 01:26:34.239 --> 01:26:38.600 about the torahm Ninjel and Mouhamin. Now this means Mahamed 1605 01:26:38.640 --> 01:26:41.039 is an Arabic word which means that which testifies the 1606 01:26:41.159 --> 01:26:44.840 truth that is still therein and falsifies the falsehood that 1607 01:26:45.000 --> 01:26:48.840 is added therein. So we use the so judge among them. 1608 01:26:48.880 --> 01:26:52.039 It says, by what Alah has revealed, meaning the Quran, 1609 01:26:52.199 --> 01:26:54.880 and following up their vain desires, diverging away from the 1610 01:26:54.960 --> 01:26:57.800 truth that has come to you. So the texts have 1611 01:26:57.880 --> 01:27:01.199 been corrupted. This is the only reliable guide. 1612 01:27:01.279 --> 01:27:03.039 No, no, you don't know that the text have been 1613 01:27:03.079 --> 01:27:06.479 corrupted yet unless it's on the base of the presubposition. 1614 01:27:06.560 --> 01:27:08.840 What the Chrin says. You think the texts are corupted. 1615 01:27:08.640 --> 01:27:11.720 Right, But I believe, But I believe objective scholarship confirms 1616 01:27:11.760 --> 01:27:12.479 it abundantly. 1617 01:27:13.239 --> 01:27:15.600 Right. But the objective scholarship is interpreted in terms of 1618 01:27:15.600 --> 01:27:18.199 the presubpositions. The ultimate authority for you, which is the Kuran. 1619 01:27:18.600 --> 01:27:20.760 And what I'm asking you is when you read Moses, 1620 01:27:21.199 --> 01:27:23.720 that text itself doesn't tell you which verses are corrupted 1621 01:27:23.760 --> 01:27:26.640 and which words which ones aren't. What is your basis? 1622 01:27:26.840 --> 01:27:30.359 What is the ultimate authority in terms of that critical 1623 01:27:30.399 --> 01:27:33.039 approach to know when it is the word of God 1624 01:27:33.159 --> 01:27:34.760 in those texts in the Torah, and when it. 1625 01:27:34.800 --> 01:27:38.119 Isn't as Muslims are. The crime itself makes clear that 1626 01:27:39.359 --> 01:27:42.119 that the Kuran itself is the discriminates. If you like, 1627 01:27:42.199 --> 01:27:44.640 it's it's the quality control. It's used jargon. 1628 01:27:44.720 --> 01:27:47.680 I understand that, But when you read through Genesis, how 1629 01:27:47.720 --> 01:27:49.000 do you know which ones are through and which ones 1630 01:27:49.000 --> 01:27:49.319 are false? 1631 01:27:50.039 --> 01:27:52.840 I'm trying to explain. The quality control is the revelation 1632 01:27:52.920 --> 01:27:55.800 that is the Koran. So if, for example, the Bible 1633 01:27:55.920 --> 01:27:59.960 says something that is contrary to the Koran, say, for example, 1634 01:28:00.039 --> 01:28:03.000 but it says Jesus God, then we know that's not 1635 01:28:03.079 --> 01:28:05.720 from God because it contradicts God's revelation. 1636 01:28:08.880 --> 01:28:11.880 Right, So the ultimate authority, the presuppositional grounding for your 1637 01:28:11.920 --> 01:28:16.079 paradigm is the corona. I understand that, but you're not answering. 1638 01:28:16.319 --> 01:28:18.399 You're not answering the question of how it is that 1639 01:28:18.479 --> 01:28:20.399 you delineate as you read through because you can say 1640 01:28:20.439 --> 01:28:23.640 something simple like that, well, if it could, if it contradicts, Okay, 1641 01:28:24.279 --> 01:28:26.399 but what a question is? 1642 01:28:26.479 --> 01:28:28.359 You know, I don't actually understand what you're trying to 1643 01:28:28.359 --> 01:28:30.239 say that. If I mis understood you, what is your 1644 01:28:30.279 --> 01:28:30.760 point again? 1645 01:28:31.960 --> 01:28:35.159 You have no way that that saying that itself. I 1646 01:28:35.359 --> 01:28:38.760 understand what you're saying that itself doesn't tell you as 1647 01:28:38.800 --> 01:28:42.039 you read through the Old Testament which things are corrupted 1648 01:28:42.159 --> 01:28:43.079 and aren't. 1649 01:28:43.960 --> 01:28:45.800 Sorry, I now grasp what you're saying. 1650 01:28:45.880 --> 01:28:49.000 Jay. For example, when Leviticus calls for the erection of 1651 01:28:49.119 --> 01:28:51.920 a temple and a temple service, but. 1652 01:28:52.319 --> 01:28:57.560 The churn is not a detailed exegesis of current Old Testament. 1653 01:28:57.800 --> 01:29:00.920 So you're right. But but and when? Because it is corruptive, 1654 01:29:01.000 --> 01:29:03.119 Muslims don't usually go to the Bible because it doesn't 1655 01:29:03.159 --> 01:29:07.000 give undistorted truth. But no, you are right, But when 1656 01:29:07.039 --> 01:29:10.239 it makes claims when we're told when Christians do you 1657 01:29:10.479 --> 01:29:14.319 say X, and it clearly explicitly contradicts the chrome, then 1658 01:29:14.399 --> 01:29:17.479 we know that X is wrong. It's not from God, 1659 01:29:17.560 --> 01:29:19.640 so it has that value. And I give you one example. 1660 01:29:19.720 --> 01:29:22.199 If New Testament says Jesus is God, then we know 1661 01:29:22.439 --> 01:29:25.159 islamically that that is false because it contradicts the clear 1662 01:29:25.239 --> 01:29:26.800 teachings of God's revelation. 1663 01:29:26.520 --> 01:29:28.920 In the crime. But this is begging the question, because 1664 01:29:28.960 --> 01:29:30.680 I'm asking you, as you're reading through, say a little 1665 01:29:30.720 --> 01:29:32.319 Viticus or any of those texts, how do you know 1666 01:29:32.439 --> 01:29:34.079 when it's corrupted and when it's not? You say, well, 1667 01:29:35.439 --> 01:29:37.720 it intradicts that when it contradicts the corn. 1668 01:29:37.800 --> 01:29:37.920 Ok. 1669 01:29:38.319 --> 01:29:40.479 So let's give let's give an example where we see 1670 01:29:40.800 --> 01:29:44.399 an angel lord or a theophany being worshiped. So basically 1671 01:29:44.479 --> 01:29:46.600 what happens is that, ultimately you would say that that's 1672 01:29:46.600 --> 01:29:49.640 perhaps a corruption. Right, if we see the angel lord, 1673 01:29:49.680 --> 01:29:52.680 a distinct entity, a distinct distinct person from God, the 1674 01:29:52.720 --> 01:29:56.600 Father or God being worshiped, that would perhaps be some corruption. Well, 1675 01:29:56.680 --> 01:29:58.640 it turns out we find a lot of those. So 1676 01:29:58.880 --> 01:30:01.159 in other words, what happens is starts stacking up a 1677 01:30:01.199 --> 01:30:02.439 lot of these corruptions. 1678 01:30:02.880 --> 01:30:04.359 And so there's a lot of coruptions. 1679 01:30:04.399 --> 01:30:07.319 So I know that you believe that, but I'm saying 1680 01:30:07.399 --> 01:30:10.720 it's arbitrary. It's totally at hoc. And so when I 1681 01:30:10.880 --> 01:30:13.319 when we come to the specifics, when we come to 1682 01:30:13.319 --> 01:30:15.640 the specifics and you start talking about how you know 1683 01:30:15.800 --> 01:30:18.880 when and where you appeal to liberal higher critics, you 1684 01:30:19.000 --> 01:30:21.520 don't do that about your religion. I don't believe operate, 1685 01:30:21.680 --> 01:30:23.720 You don't operates as an objective. 1686 01:30:23.880 --> 01:30:27.960 I reject this characterization of the liberal I think that's 1687 01:30:28.319 --> 01:30:31.880 polemical and tendentious. I don't believe it's an authentic, accurate 1688 01:30:31.920 --> 01:30:33.960 way of describing this scholars that I respect. 1689 01:30:34.039 --> 01:30:36.239 Do you think that that in the year one thousand 1690 01:30:36.439 --> 01:30:39.720 there were Bellhausen style critics that were doing that kind 1691 01:30:39.720 --> 01:30:40.359 of analysis. 1692 01:30:40.520 --> 01:30:43.000 Well, of course, val Housen was born in the nineteenth century, right, 1693 01:30:43.920 --> 01:30:45.840 And I think coming back to this, Vale has point. 1694 01:30:45.960 --> 01:30:46.399 I think. 1695 01:30:48.239 --> 01:30:51.640 That scholarship doesn't slafishly follow the Belle Housen if you 1696 01:30:51.760 --> 01:30:52.800 read contemportary. 1697 01:30:52.399 --> 01:30:54.680 What I'm saying is that you don't know anything about 1698 01:30:55.039 --> 01:30:58.319 the type. You don't know anything about the Torah because 1699 01:30:58.439 --> 01:31:00.880 this standard that you've given doesn't tell you when and 1700 01:31:01.000 --> 01:31:02.960 where it is and is not the word of God. 1701 01:31:03.039 --> 01:31:05.359 Because I can start I can start stacking up things, 1702 01:31:05.439 --> 01:31:07.399 and what's left to you is less and less and 1703 01:31:07.520 --> 01:31:10.159 less and less. In the to itself there would actually 1704 01:31:10.199 --> 01:31:11.920 be revelation from God on your view. 1705 01:31:12.239 --> 01:31:14.520 Well, what I recommend you no giving it another exament. 1706 01:31:14.560 --> 01:31:16.960 I mean, obviously perhaps haven't read the crime from cover 1707 01:31:17.079 --> 01:31:19.880 to cover, but the portrayal for it. Give me another 1708 01:31:19.880 --> 01:31:24.960 example of the prophets of God are often as discreditable, drunken, 1709 01:31:25.880 --> 01:31:29.319 sexually immoral, murderers and so on. Is a portrayal that 1710 01:31:29.439 --> 01:31:33.119 is rejected in the chrome. Well, okay, good, So that 1711 01:31:33.199 --> 01:31:36.479 That would be another area where where the defamation of 1712 01:31:36.520 --> 01:31:41.039 God's messages and prophets is false. Historically, it doesn't go 1713 01:31:41.319 --> 01:31:44.720 a verse by verse exegesis, but it gives these broad 1714 01:31:44.800 --> 01:31:49.520 indications that certain certain views are part of a corrupted, 1715 01:31:49.840 --> 01:31:52.079 falsified narrative and it caused people. 1716 01:31:52.159 --> 01:31:53.840 But you have no way of knowing when and where 1717 01:31:54.199 --> 01:31:58.560 you can start listing all these arbitrary things. But less 1718 01:31:58.880 --> 01:32:01.479 less and less so. You don't have access to Moses. 1719 01:32:01.520 --> 01:32:03.720 You don't have access to the Torah. All you have 1720 01:32:04.159 --> 01:32:07.479 is the lens of the Qur'an to sell things. That's 1721 01:32:07.520 --> 01:32:09.760 why you're going to the higher critics. And they are liberal. 1722 01:32:09.800 --> 01:32:12.319 What do you mean they don't believe in Yes they are. 1723 01:32:12.399 --> 01:32:14.399 They don't believe in the doctorate of inspiration that the 1724 01:32:14.479 --> 01:32:18.800 church of the first thousand years, No, they don't. Raymond 1725 01:32:18.800 --> 01:32:21.760 Brown does not believe in the inherancy of scriptures. You 1726 01:32:21.840 --> 01:32:22.479 know he doesn't. 1727 01:32:22.880 --> 01:32:23.399 Can I can? I? 1728 01:32:23.680 --> 01:32:26.000 Okay, this is obviously a subject you feel very passionate about, 1729 01:32:26.039 --> 01:32:28.359 and I all I can say is I disagree the 1730 01:32:28.439 --> 01:32:32.279 scholars that I know it read these topic. 1731 01:32:32.399 --> 01:32:34.079 You know, Raymond Brown doesn't believe in Errancy. 1732 01:32:34.239 --> 01:32:37.439 Raymond Bound died in the nineteen nineties. So and he 1733 01:32:37.680 --> 01:32:40.119 you know, when I met him at Oxford, he certainly 1734 01:32:40.159 --> 01:32:43.279 believed in the Trinity, he believed in the incarnation, he 1735 01:32:43.399 --> 01:32:44.720 believed in the thinkings. 1736 01:32:44.359 --> 01:32:44.840 Of the church. 1737 01:32:45.079 --> 01:32:47.479 So he was not an unbeliever as you have. You 1738 01:32:47.600 --> 01:32:50.520 have very as you have resulted him actually or blessed memory, 1739 01:32:50.560 --> 01:32:54.199 because he was a very distinguished scholar of John's gospel. 1740 01:32:54.439 --> 01:32:58.439 Nobody cares about distinguished scholarship. That's not what the appeal 1741 01:32:58.479 --> 01:33:00.680 to authority is. Are you aware of this this fallacy? 1742 01:33:01.119 --> 01:33:02.840 Right, I'm not appealing. I'm telling you that the man 1743 01:33:03.119 --> 01:33:07.079 that you're mistaken about, the man who did proclaim his 1744 01:33:07.239 --> 01:33:10.640 Christian faith, you seem to be dissing him quite powerfully. 1745 01:33:10.640 --> 01:33:11.439 And I find that okay. 1746 01:33:11.479 --> 01:33:14.439 So it's Hans skill Christian. 1747 01:33:15.439 --> 01:33:18.800 Characteristic to speak so badly about a fellow Christian. Actually, 1748 01:33:18.840 --> 01:33:19.920 I think that's quite This is. 1749 01:33:19.920 --> 01:33:21.520 A tactic where you're trying to make me look like 1750 01:33:21.600 --> 01:33:24.279 a bad man. Now we don't have a problem delineating 1751 01:33:24.279 --> 01:33:25.439 who's a heretic and who's. 1752 01:33:25.239 --> 01:33:28.399 Not well using that language. Again, I didn't realize you 1753 01:33:28.439 --> 01:33:32.359 were so conservative, shall we say, about matters, But I 1754 01:33:32.399 --> 01:33:35.319 just wanted to correct one other thing about my alleged 1755 01:33:35.399 --> 01:33:38.039 inconsistency about the predictions of the Messia and the Old Testament. 1756 01:33:38.039 --> 01:33:40.439 I was very careful when I said that I have 1757 01:33:40.560 --> 01:33:44.000 no problem with the Masonic predictions in the in the Bible, 1758 01:33:44.239 --> 01:33:47.359 in the Psalms and so on. But there's no evidence 1759 01:33:47.399 --> 01:33:50.399 at all that I'm aware that the Psalmists predict the 1760 01:33:50.520 --> 01:33:55.000 death and resurrection of the Messiah, or anyone talks about 1761 01:33:55.039 --> 01:33:58.359 the incarnation of God as something that is to come. 1762 01:33:58.760 --> 01:34:02.880 It's that aspect that I am rejecting. Not that's not inconsistency. 1763 01:34:03.079 --> 01:34:06.279 Yes to the Messiah. No to the alleged predictions of 1764 01:34:06.319 --> 01:34:09.640 death and resurrection incarnation, which do not exist as predictions 1765 01:34:09.680 --> 01:34:11.600 anywhere in the Jewish Bible. In my view, That's what 1766 01:34:11.680 --> 01:34:13.880 I'm getting at, So there's no inconsistency. 1767 01:34:14.920 --> 01:34:16.920 You did contradict. You said that those texts were not 1768 01:34:17.079 --> 01:34:19.720 about the Messiah. You said that those were texts about David. 1769 01:34:20.359 --> 01:34:21.760 And then you turned around and said, you have no 1770 01:34:21.840 --> 01:34:24.039 problem with a bunch of texts in the Old Testament 1771 01:34:24.079 --> 01:34:26.479 predicting the coming of the Messiah. That's a contradiction. 1772 01:34:26.600 --> 01:34:30.439 The suffering of the Messiah alleged. The Christian understanding of 1773 01:34:30.479 --> 01:34:33.239 these sixs are not predictive texts of the future Messiah. 1774 01:34:33.239 --> 01:34:36.880 They're talking about David's own suffering, so they're not the predictably. 1775 01:34:36.880 --> 01:34:40.159 The Jewish view is that those are messianic texts. Whether 1776 01:34:40.239 --> 01:34:42.760 it's back in Genesis predictions of what there was promised 1777 01:34:42.800 --> 01:34:45.920 to Abraham, or whether it's the psalms of David. Jews 1778 01:34:46.039 --> 01:34:49.199 view those as Messianic texts. It's not either or. Your 1779 01:34:49.239 --> 01:34:50.359 whole thing is based on dialect. 1780 01:34:51.119 --> 01:34:54.640 No Jew, there's no Jew known to history that prior 1781 01:34:54.680 --> 01:34:58.439 to the rise of Christianity ever thought, ever thought that 1782 01:34:58.600 --> 01:35:00.800 the Messiah would die for see and we'll be raised 1783 01:35:00.880 --> 01:35:03.119 dead on the third day. That that that that idea 1784 01:35:03.319 --> 01:35:04.720 only came about with Christianity. 1785 01:35:04.760 --> 01:35:06.760 And you could prove that's actually not true, that's actually 1786 01:35:06.800 --> 01:35:07.159 not true. 1787 01:35:07.439 --> 01:35:08.119 I prove me wrong. 1788 01:35:08.199 --> 01:35:14.600 Now what In fact, I have a friend who's a 1789 01:35:14.640 --> 01:35:17.960 Messianic Jew. His name is Ken. I mean, he has 1790 01:35:18.039 --> 01:35:22.000 a whole book where he delineates the first century expectations, 1791 01:35:22.640 --> 01:35:25.640 Talmutic expectations, Talmutic statements, both helmuts. 1792 01:35:25.960 --> 01:35:28.520 No I didn't think. I said, there is no a 1793 01:35:28.720 --> 01:35:32.479 prior to the rise of christian Talmud is post is 1794 01:35:33.000 --> 01:35:33.840 not prime. 1795 01:35:34.279 --> 01:35:36.920 It's a. The Talmud is a collection of documents that 1796 01:35:37.079 --> 01:35:39.279 go back to prior to the time of them. Side. 1797 01:35:39.359 --> 01:35:39.960 Did you not know that? 1798 01:35:42.520 --> 01:35:42.640 Uh? 1799 01:35:43.319 --> 01:35:46.880 No, because the yes, it is Jeremiah talks to Ezra, 1800 01:35:47.079 --> 01:35:50.000 and Jeremiah talk about the beginning of that collection. 1801 01:35:49.880 --> 01:35:52.239 Of One example, give me one example. 1802 01:35:52.520 --> 01:35:54.920 When Jesus says, you follow the Scribes and the Pharisees 1803 01:35:54.960 --> 01:35:58.560 traditions in Matthew twenty three, when Jesus is rebuking their traditions, 1804 01:35:58.760 --> 01:36:01.159 he's saying the exact same thing Seremiah said about the 1805 01:36:01.239 --> 01:36:03.880 traditions of Describes in the Phariseeason. His day Ezra is 1806 01:36:03.960 --> 01:36:07.199 the beginning of the Phariseeic tradition. No you, oh, you 1807 01:36:07.239 --> 01:36:08.439 don't know. You just lost that point. 1808 01:36:08.840 --> 01:36:10.960 Nowhere be prior to the rise of Christians. 1809 01:36:11.039 --> 01:36:13.079 I just gave you a citation for Matthew twenty three. 1810 01:36:13.439 --> 01:36:14.840 But that is Christianity. 1811 01:36:16.279 --> 01:36:21.960 That's a first century text that's Reflectingmiah. Is it's Jeremiah, Okay, 1812 01:36:22.000 --> 01:36:24.640 So forget Matthew twenty three. Jeremiah talks about the Describes 1813 01:36:24.680 --> 01:36:25.439 and the Pharisees. 1814 01:36:26.079 --> 01:36:29.760 Babylonia and Chalmud is not of the Messiah. For sin 1815 01:36:29.920 --> 01:36:32.520 in the Jewish scriptures anywhere to show me. Give me 1816 01:36:32.720 --> 01:36:33.119 a reference. 1817 01:36:33.359 --> 01:36:35.039 Now you've changed the subject because you got caught on 1818 01:36:35.119 --> 01:36:37.359 that point, right, So you didn't know. You didn't know 1819 01:36:37.560 --> 01:36:40.279 that Ezra is the beginning of the Firistaid tradition, that 1820 01:36:40.359 --> 01:36:42.920 the Talmudic tradition precedes the first century. 1821 01:36:43.159 --> 01:36:46.119 Can you give me a single quote then, from any 1822 01:36:46.279 --> 01:36:49.000 pre first cent, pre Christian source that talks about the 1823 01:36:49.239 --> 01:36:51.520 Siah dying and rising again on the third day. Just 1824 01:36:51.600 --> 01:36:54.159 give me a source now that's been recorded on YouTube 1825 01:36:54.279 --> 01:36:57.800 now that I can study. Actually, give me a on YouTube. 1826 01:36:57.800 --> 01:36:59.960 Now what do you mean, Well, just give me a reference, 1827 01:37:00.279 --> 01:37:02.600 because you allege that I'm wrong. So I'm asking you 1828 01:37:02.720 --> 01:37:06.960 to produce evidence any Christian statement from a Jew that 1829 01:37:07.079 --> 01:37:08.239 said the Messiah. 1830 01:37:07.840 --> 01:37:11.119 Will come and Joah six six. 1831 01:37:12.079 --> 01:37:14.000 Let me let me look at it, because let me 1832 01:37:14.000 --> 01:37:15.000 look at Let me look at it. I want to 1833 01:37:15.000 --> 01:37:16.399 look at it up. Now I'm going to find it's 1834 01:37:16.399 --> 01:37:18.119 a Times book towards the end here we go is 1835 01:37:18.239 --> 01:37:18.760 Zia chapter. 1836 01:37:18.800 --> 01:37:22.399 What's saying Hoseah six talks about on the third day 1837 01:37:22.680 --> 01:37:23.560 he will raise us up? 1838 01:37:23.880 --> 01:37:25.560 Let me let me just look at it. What fverse 1839 01:37:25.560 --> 01:37:26.560 because it's quite a few verses. 1840 01:37:27.199 --> 01:37:27.680 One and two. 1841 01:37:28.760 --> 01:37:30.840 Okay, let me so come. I'm just gonna read it 1842 01:37:31.119 --> 01:37:33.239 from the Bible. Here, come, and let us return to 1843 01:37:33.359 --> 01:37:37.159 the Lord. For he for it is he who has torn, 1844 01:37:37.640 --> 01:37:40.319 and he will hear us. He has struck, He has 1845 01:37:40.359 --> 01:37:43.560 struck down, and he will bind us up. After two 1846 01:37:43.680 --> 01:37:45.960 days he will revive us. On the third day he 1847 01:37:46.000 --> 01:37:49.000 will raise us up that we may live before him. 1848 01:37:49.680 --> 01:37:51.359 Where does it mentioned a Messiah? 1849 01:37:52.079 --> 01:37:56.279 That's a Messianic prophecy. The whole book is if you 1850 01:37:56.279 --> 01:37:58.359 don't understand the Old Testament, you don't understand that those 1851 01:37:58.399 --> 01:38:01.520 are all predictions of the coming in themself. Guess what 1852 01:38:01.760 --> 01:38:05.279 the Jews view that? As the Jews view those Texas. 1853 01:38:05.000 --> 01:38:09.159 And Messiana context. The preceding chapter is the impending Judgment 1854 01:38:09.199 --> 01:38:13.199 on Israel. This is talking about Israel, not about a feuture. 1855 01:38:13.600 --> 01:38:15.960 Did you know that in the Gospel of Matthew, And 1856 01:38:15.960 --> 01:38:18.800 if you read Matthew twenty three towards the end, finish 1857 01:38:19.199 --> 01:38:21.359 In the Matthew twenty three towards the end, Jesus says 1858 01:38:21.479 --> 01:38:24.439 that in the first century upon the Jews of his 1859 01:38:24.640 --> 01:38:27.319 day would come the vengeance written of in all the 1860 01:38:27.439 --> 01:38:31.800 prophets from Able to Zechariah. So all of those descriptions 1861 01:38:31.840 --> 01:38:35.720 that are about the destruction of Israel, the First Temple 1862 01:38:35.760 --> 01:38:38.159 when it was destroyed by the Babylonians. That's a type 1863 01:38:38.199 --> 01:38:40.239 of the destruction of the Temple in seventy eighty. The 1864 01:38:40.319 --> 01:38:43.479 New Testament makes it abundantly clear Jesus is saying that 1865 01:38:43.720 --> 01:38:45.479 in these text and by the way, in Liu twenty four, 1866 01:38:45.560 --> 01:38:47.560 Jesus says that all of these Old Testament predictions are 1867 01:38:47.560 --> 01:38:49.479 about Him, the very thing that you can't seem to 1868 01:38:49.520 --> 01:38:51.600 grasp about how to read the Old Testament. In Liu 1869 01:38:51.720 --> 01:38:54.119 twenty four, it says Jesus opened the minds of the 1870 01:38:54.159 --> 01:38:57.159 disciples to understand all things that were written about Him 1871 01:38:57.239 --> 01:38:58.720 and the Law, the prophets, and Moses. 1872 01:38:58.800 --> 01:39:02.239 I'm looking about pre christ texts. Your quotation ofbout Isaiah 1873 01:39:02.359 --> 01:39:05.479 is a pre Christian text reading context of the impending 1874 01:39:05.560 --> 01:39:08.800 judgment Israel and impenitence of Israel. It's all about Israel. 1875 01:39:08.800 --> 01:39:11.359 It's not about a messiety. It says, come, let us 1876 01:39:11.560 --> 01:39:13.039 return to the Lord, for. 1877 01:39:13.159 --> 01:39:15.880 This happened in the first century bro seventy eighty. 1878 01:39:16.520 --> 01:39:20.399 No, Nojoseiah was a Jewish prophet long before Jesus. 1879 01:39:20.520 --> 01:39:22.479 Topology is do you understand this right, So. 1880 01:39:23.079 --> 01:39:25.159 This is not about prophecy. This is not a prophecy 1881 01:39:25.199 --> 01:39:27.239 of Jesus. I'm sorry it does not pass the test 1882 01:39:27.479 --> 01:39:29.119 of historical credibility. 1883 01:39:29.199 --> 01:39:30.119 You don't make that test. 1884 01:39:30.960 --> 01:39:34.000 Well, I'm reading in context. It's ex Jesus. I'm just 1885 01:39:34.039 --> 01:39:35.239 getting honest to Jesus. 1886 01:39:35.920 --> 01:39:40.000 Even Jewish ex Jesus of their texts understands a double sense. 1887 01:39:40.039 --> 01:39:44.520 They understand that prophecies. For example, Daniel says that he finished. 1888 01:39:44.800 --> 01:39:47.920 Daniel says that in his day he read the writings 1889 01:39:47.960 --> 01:39:51.800 of Jeremiah and the Babylonian Captivity to understand what would 1890 01:39:51.840 --> 01:39:55.319 be mirrored in his day. So the texts themselves in 1891 01:39:55.359 --> 01:39:58.319 the Old Testament teach typology. They teach that they are 1892 01:39:58.439 --> 01:40:01.680 mirrored in future fulfillment. You didn't know that. You thought 1893 01:40:01.760 --> 01:40:05.640 that it's only the historical exegesis. But the Jewish writings 1894 01:40:05.720 --> 01:40:09.560 themselves say that the historical setting is a prediction of 1895 01:40:09.640 --> 01:40:12.720 becoming Messiah. You already admitted this when you talked about 1896 01:40:12.760 --> 01:40:14.279 the fact that you don't have a problem with the 1897 01:40:14.319 --> 01:40:16.960 Old Testament prophets predicting the coming of the Messiah. So 1898 01:40:17.079 --> 01:40:20.000 look how arbitrary this is. You're all over the place 1899 01:40:20.159 --> 01:40:23.199 there's higher critics over here, higher criticism over here, and 1900 01:40:23.279 --> 01:40:26.359 it's faith. But over here, I will arbitrarily take all 1901 01:40:26.439 --> 01:40:27.680 of the profits and what they say. 1902 01:40:27.880 --> 01:40:31.600 It's completely arbitrary respond to this. It's not an arbitrary 1903 01:40:31.640 --> 01:40:34.920 to notice in its historical context that Hoseiah six is 1904 01:40:35.000 --> 01:40:37.319 not talking about a future person, but about it. 1905 01:40:37.479 --> 01:40:39.840 I didn't deny the historical context. I said it was 1906 01:40:39.880 --> 01:40:42.119 a type you did not understand the types. 1907 01:40:41.880 --> 01:40:45.119 Of historically later death and resurrection in there. 1908 01:40:46.279 --> 01:40:48.319 You don't get to set the standard of of what 1909 01:40:48.479 --> 01:40:51.000 the litmus tests is of how to determine like it 1910 01:40:51.159 --> 01:40:53.640 has to say this in the passage. Right. I already 1911 01:40:53.680 --> 01:40:56.039 refuted this earlier. I already refuted this earlier when I 1912 01:40:56.119 --> 01:40:59.880 pointed out, look, does Abraham talk about the Mosaic law. 1913 01:41:00.079 --> 01:41:02.159 That's like saying, well, since Abraham doesn't say that there 1914 01:41:02.159 --> 01:41:04.319 will be a mosaic law, I don't accept anything after 1915 01:41:04.479 --> 01:41:06.720 the time of Abraham. That's a ridiculous argument. 1916 01:41:07.159 --> 01:41:09.760 If I refer to the Jewish Study Bible by the 1917 01:41:09.800 --> 01:41:12.640 world's top Jewish scholars, and we look at Hoseiah chapter six, 1918 01:41:12.720 --> 01:41:14.680 would you be interested know what they say about this passage. 1919 01:41:14.800 --> 01:41:16.800 I have the Jewish Study Bible. I've read it. I 1920 01:41:16.920 --> 01:41:19.119 know that they don't believe that. All of those texts 1921 01:41:19.159 --> 01:41:22.079 are talking about them society, but even the Messianic text 1922 01:41:22.119 --> 01:41:23.520 where they do think it's messianic. 1923 01:41:24.000 --> 01:41:26.600 No, these are expert Jews talking about their own scripture. 1924 01:41:26.640 --> 01:41:28.920 It doesn't matter. All you do is appeal to unbelievers. 1925 01:41:28.960 --> 01:41:31.079 Bro, these are not unbelievers. They believe. 1926 01:41:31.239 --> 01:41:33.560 These are unbelievers. They don't believe in Christianity. 1927 01:41:33.720 --> 01:41:35.600 You interested in what they have to say about this passage? 1928 01:41:36.239 --> 01:41:38.680 You know what? I know what the Jewish extra duces are. 1929 01:41:38.720 --> 01:41:40.880 That passage is what I know that they don't believe 1930 01:41:40.880 --> 01:41:44.479 it's messianic. I was making the point that in other texts, 1931 01:41:44.800 --> 01:41:48.199 like the Dividic texts, they are saying it's messianic. 1932 01:41:48.560 --> 01:41:52.840 Would remember we talked about the death and Resurrection being 1933 01:41:52.960 --> 01:41:56.199 four card predicted as claimed by Paul in the Old Testament. 1934 01:41:56.279 --> 01:41:58.319 It's the first passage you've given me, and it doesn't 1935 01:41:58.439 --> 01:42:00.079 be honest past the test could have been. 1936 01:42:00.279 --> 01:42:02.439 You don't make that test. You don't make that test. 1937 01:42:02.600 --> 01:42:05.640 You and unbelieving people don't set up what the test is? 1938 01:42:06.119 --> 01:42:08.720 Not unbelieved the authority to do that? Who does? 1939 01:42:08.920 --> 01:42:09.760 The Orthodox Church? 1940 01:42:09.800 --> 01:42:12.279 The Church correct because it's a self. It's a self. 1941 01:42:12.640 --> 01:42:15.199 I'm not a Christian. I don't believe in your church. 1942 01:42:15.439 --> 01:42:16.119 I know you don't. 1943 01:42:16.640 --> 01:42:19.439 So if I'm looking at objective exte Jesus, there. 1944 01:42:19.399 --> 01:42:22.600 Is no objective exto Jesus, there is no. There's not 1945 01:42:23.680 --> 01:42:24.399 I believe there is. 1946 01:42:25.039 --> 01:42:27.479 Jay. Can I explain to you what I think objectives is? 1947 01:42:27.840 --> 01:42:28.880 Just let me speak for a second. 1948 01:42:29.039 --> 01:42:32.479 You cited Thomas Kuhne in paradigms. You know that you 1949 01:42:32.560 --> 01:42:34.239 know that we read things for a paradigm, so you 1950 01:42:34.439 --> 01:42:36.439 know there's not objective. 1951 01:42:36.039 --> 01:42:38.880 Exegu Jay, Okay, so let me expect it. 1952 01:42:39.039 --> 01:42:41.239 You cite Thomas Kune in your debate on paradigms. 1953 01:42:41.680 --> 01:42:42.520 Will do you let me speak? 1954 01:42:42.840 --> 01:42:45.279 You cite Thomas Kune on paradigms in your debate admitting 1955 01:42:45.279 --> 01:42:48.119 that there aren't purely objective exegesies. 1956 01:42:48.239 --> 01:42:50.039 Will you let me speak, Jay, or you're going to 1957 01:42:50.079 --> 01:42:53.479 shut me down again. Thomas Kuhn was talking about the 1958 01:42:53.600 --> 01:42:55.760 structure that the name of his book is called the 1959 01:42:55.840 --> 01:42:59.880 Structure of Science. I know you know it all, but 1960 01:43:00.199 --> 01:43:03.920 let me explain anyway. He's not talking about biblical exegesis. 1961 01:43:04.000 --> 01:43:07.279 He's talking about paradigms. Don't you think text, you're reading 1962 01:43:07.319 --> 01:43:08.079 it through your paradigm. 1963 01:43:08.359 --> 01:43:14.199 He's talking about scientific paradigms with reference to Newton, to Einstein, 1964 01:43:14.279 --> 01:43:16.680 totolemaic cosmology. 1965 01:43:16.600 --> 01:43:20.119 And scientific when we interpret the world, you're trying to 1966 01:43:20.159 --> 01:43:21.760 do scientific extra Jesus. 1967 01:43:21.720 --> 01:43:23.640 Talking about the cosmos and physics. 1968 01:43:24.079 --> 01:43:27.439 It's a paradigm you have different. 1969 01:43:28.720 --> 01:43:31.840 He was professor at Chicago University of Science. 1970 01:43:33.159 --> 01:43:34.359 You're trying to do scientific. 1971 01:43:35.600 --> 01:43:37.840 Now, if if I may speak about this passage, please 1972 01:43:37.880 --> 01:43:40.960 and tell you what I think objective excuses is objective 1973 01:43:41.199 --> 01:43:43.760 ex Jesus, I understand it is when you read a 1974 01:43:43.880 --> 01:43:47.680 passage of the Bible, in this case, in its historical 1975 01:43:47.760 --> 01:43:50.880 and literary context. So we're trying to understand the words 1976 01:43:50.960 --> 01:43:54.119 that being meant for the Hebrew Hebrew writers Hoseiah in 1977 01:43:54.239 --> 01:43:57.720 the context that he wrote them, with reference to the 1978 01:43:57.920 --> 01:43:59.239 other passages, reference to. 1979 01:43:59.319 --> 01:44:03.640 The time, and we believe in the grammatical historical approach. 1980 01:44:04.359 --> 01:44:07.159 When we do that with this passage, and I almost 1981 01:44:07.199 --> 01:44:09.039 I'm familiar with this passage in the whole book, there 1982 01:44:09.119 --> 01:44:12.279 is no indication whatsoever of any Christian themes to do 1983 01:44:12.479 --> 01:44:15.760 with the dying and resurrection of Jesus, such as Paul 1984 01:44:15.800 --> 01:44:20.119 claims in one Corinthians, Chapter fifteen, verse three. So I 1985 01:44:20.199 --> 01:44:22.159 will ask you perhaps to try another verge. Is another 1986 01:44:22.159 --> 01:44:23.800 passage you can give me that actually does talk about 1987 01:44:23.840 --> 01:44:25.479 these subjects that Paul mentions. 1988 01:44:25.800 --> 01:44:27.840 Well, no, because what's going to happen is the exact 1989 01:44:27.880 --> 01:44:31.279 same approach is no, no, no, let me finish. So 1990 01:44:31.359 --> 01:44:32.880 what you're going to do is you're going to say 1991 01:44:32.920 --> 01:44:35.319 that that's a Christian reading. Can you not hear that 1992 01:44:35.359 --> 01:44:37.640 I'm saying that, yes, it's a Christian reading? And can 1993 01:44:37.720 --> 01:44:40.159 you not hear that I said it's a mirrored fulfillment? Okay, 1994 01:44:40.239 --> 01:44:42.880 So I don't deny that a grammatical historical context of 1995 01:44:42.960 --> 01:44:45.880 what Hoseah is talking about that's in fact crucial to 1996 01:44:46.000 --> 01:44:49.800 the fulfillment in our view, because it's a mirrored fulfillment. 1997 01:44:50.159 --> 01:44:53.800 Seventy AD is a fulfillment of the destruction that happened 1998 01:44:53.800 --> 01:44:54.840 in five eighty six weeks. 1999 01:44:55.159 --> 01:44:57.920 This passage has anything to do with the future Messiah 2000 01:44:57.960 --> 01:44:59.800 actually dying on the cross and rising on the third. 2001 01:45:00.720 --> 01:45:03.880 So what do you think, then, saying you accept now 2002 01:45:03.960 --> 01:45:06.079 the historical reading of the text, do you think the 2003 01:45:06.239 --> 01:45:09.560 historical reading of this text suggests at all that a 2004 01:45:09.720 --> 01:45:12.279 future Messiah will die on the cross and rise again 2005 01:45:12.359 --> 01:45:15.640 on the third day, as you, well, can you show 2006 01:45:15.680 --> 01:45:17.560 me where it says that in those. 2007 01:45:17.399 --> 01:45:19.880 Chapter six Yeah, that's not how you do ex Jesus. 2008 01:45:20.319 --> 01:45:22.000 Oh, which teach me extra Jesus. 2009 01:45:22.039 --> 01:45:25.399 Then yeah, because you you in order to have your position, 2010 01:45:25.520 --> 01:45:29.199 it has to only be the grammatical historical context. And 2011 01:45:29.479 --> 01:45:31.600 as we see, for example, from the lifting up of 2012 01:45:31.640 --> 01:45:35.319 the serpent on the pole, which Nicodemus is unclear about, 2013 01:45:35.359 --> 01:45:37.319 and Jesus says in John three to Nicodemus that the 2014 01:45:37.359 --> 01:45:39.359 son of Man will be lifted up just as Moses 2015 01:45:39.439 --> 01:45:41.880 lifted up the bronze serpent. As many people point out 2016 01:45:41.960 --> 01:45:45.000 to you in the debates, that's called typology, it's called 2017 01:45:45.079 --> 01:45:50.159 a mirroring. Jewish exegesis already had this concept. It wasn't 2018 01:45:50.199 --> 01:45:53.199 invented by Christians. Okay, So the way that we're going 2019 01:45:53.279 --> 01:45:56.800 to read the text is through our presuppositions, in our paradigms. 2020 01:45:56.960 --> 01:45:59.600 You know this because you cite Thomas Kuhn. You're trying 2021 01:45:59.640 --> 01:46:03.399 to do scientific exo Jesus. So it's not different to 2022 01:46:03.439 --> 01:46:06.560 appeal to Thomas Kewne because it's still paradematic the way 2023 01:46:06.600 --> 01:46:08.800 that we interpret these texts. I know that you don't 2024 01:46:08.840 --> 01:46:11.680 believe it's about Jesus. I'm saying that in the Christian worldview, 2025 01:46:11.720 --> 01:46:13.760 in the Christian paradigm, it is about Jesus. It is 2026 01:46:13.800 --> 01:46:17.039 a prediction of the depth on resurrection, because I explained 2027 01:46:17.079 --> 01:46:20.960 it consistently by showing that it is a mirroring of 2028 01:46:21.000 --> 01:46:24.479 the destruction of Jerusalem. So when the minor prophets, for example, 2029 01:46:24.560 --> 01:46:27.159 many of them talk about the destruction of the First 2030 01:46:27.199 --> 01:46:30.159 Temple in five eighty six. Okay, Now when you read Daniel, 2031 01:46:30.159 --> 01:46:32.640 for example, Daniel says in Daniel nine that when the 2032 01:46:32.720 --> 01:46:35.560 Messiah comes, there's going to be an end to the 2033 01:46:36.159 --> 01:46:39.439 temple and grain offerings and sacrifices, because the Messiah will 2034 01:46:39.479 --> 01:46:41.199 come and he will put an end to that. That 2035 01:46:41.319 --> 01:46:44.600 whole first century is the transition period from the Mosaic 2036 01:46:44.720 --> 01:46:48.359 Law into the fulfilling of the prophecies of the Gentiles 2037 01:46:48.399 --> 01:46:51.000 coming into the Kingdom of God, as all those prophets said. 2038 01:46:51.359 --> 01:46:53.560 So that whole transition period from the birth of Christ 2039 01:46:53.920 --> 01:46:56.359 to seventy eighty, it doesn't just end in the resurrection 2040 01:46:56.520 --> 01:46:59.079 or Pentecost or acts. It ends at seventy eighty. That's 2041 01:46:59.159 --> 01:47:01.399 what the apocalypse is about. That's what Luke twenty one 2042 01:47:01.439 --> 01:47:03.880 and Matthew twenty four about that's why Jesus says in 2043 01:47:03.920 --> 01:47:06.079 Matthew twenty three at the end of that chapter that 2044 01:47:06.279 --> 01:47:09.439 all the predictions and the prophets will come upon this generation. 2045 01:47:09.840 --> 01:47:13.680 So that means this prophecy here in Amos will come 2046 01:47:13.840 --> 01:47:17.399 upon this generation when he talks about the covenant curses 2047 01:47:17.520 --> 01:47:20.920 of Israel Deuteronomy twenty eight, which lists all these covenant 2048 01:47:20.960 --> 01:47:24.880 curses and Amos and Hoseiah talking about the divorce of 2049 01:47:25.199 --> 01:47:28.920 literal flesh Israel in that covenantal transaction. That's what happened 2050 01:47:28.960 --> 01:47:31.319 when they rejected the Messiah and Jesus. As he says 2051 01:47:31.319 --> 01:47:33.680 in the Peri Wicked bind Dressers, the kingdom will go 2052 01:47:34.119 --> 01:47:36.840 to the Gentiles because the Jews have rejected it. That's 2053 01:47:36.880 --> 01:47:39.279 why it was destroyed in seventy eighty. It was the 2054 01:47:39.319 --> 01:47:41.960 fulfillment not just of what Luke twenty one and Matthew 2055 01:47:42.000 --> 01:47:44.119 twenty four said. It was a fulfillment of all of 2056 01:47:44.159 --> 01:47:48.119 these predictions back to the Mosaic Deuteronomy twenty eight Covenant curses. 2057 01:47:48.479 --> 01:47:51.239 And you say, well, that's crazy, that's not what we 2058 01:47:51.319 --> 01:47:53.279 do now. No. In fact, if you read the Apocalypse 2059 01:47:53.560 --> 01:47:56.239 in chapters two and three, when Jesus speaks to the churches, 2060 01:47:57.119 --> 01:48:00.920 he it promises them curses and blessings, just like it's 2061 01:48:00.960 --> 01:48:04.840 no different. We don't deny covenant blessings and curses, but 2062 01:48:04.960 --> 01:48:07.079 we see a unity of fulfillment from the time of 2063 01:48:07.159 --> 01:48:10.199 Genesis even into Moses up to the coming of the Messiah. 2064 01:48:10.640 --> 01:48:13.439 And all I've seen from you throughout this discussion is 2065 01:48:13.640 --> 01:48:17.000 all over the place. You want higher criticism and complete 2066 01:48:17.119 --> 01:48:19.560 doubt of the scriptures when it suits you. But if 2067 01:48:19.600 --> 01:48:22.720 we were to turn that higher critical approach upon your book, 2068 01:48:23.399 --> 01:48:25.399 or if we were to point out that it's inconsistent 2069 01:48:25.399 --> 01:48:28.399 when you arbitrarily pick which verses in the Torah or 2070 01:48:28.439 --> 01:48:31.920 in the prophets you do accept right, it's totally arbitrary. 2071 01:48:32.039 --> 01:48:34.039 So what do we go back to? It goes back 2072 01:48:34.039 --> 01:48:36.199 to your presubositions of the Koran. So I want to 2073 01:48:36.279 --> 01:48:39.039 ask you on the presubositions of the Koran. And it's 2074 01:48:39.319 --> 01:48:42.520 you said, the literal actual speech of God himself. Are 2075 01:48:42.600 --> 01:48:46.560 the words in the Koran a reflection of God himself? 2076 01:48:46.680 --> 01:48:48.640 Or are they the words of God? In other words, 2077 01:48:48.680 --> 01:48:50.000 the Koran that I hold in my hand, is that 2078 01:48:50.199 --> 01:48:52.039 literally the incarnate words of God. 2079 01:48:54.399 --> 01:48:59.159 Okay, coming back then to Hoseiah chapter six, I just 2080 01:48:59.239 --> 01:49:02.680 wanted to give you the testimony of the Jewish study 2081 01:49:02.720 --> 01:49:05.479 by It is published by Oxford University Press, and it 2082 01:49:05.640 --> 01:49:09.920 is seen as the best critical scholarly. 2083 01:49:12.600 --> 01:49:14.359 As the Jewish study that was supposed to bring. 2084 01:49:14.640 --> 01:49:18.359 Jewish scholars say that is because I want to show 2085 01:49:18.359 --> 01:49:21.000 you this is what Jewish got. The best Jewish scholarship says, 2086 01:49:22.279 --> 01:49:23.880 because well, because. 2087 01:49:24.600 --> 01:49:27.399 I'm going to pull out the Buddhist, the Buddhist approach 2088 01:49:27.520 --> 01:49:29.000 to Islam and. 2089 01:49:28.960 --> 01:49:33.119 The current because let's look at the Buddhist explained. If 2090 01:49:33.159 --> 01:49:37.520 you didn't, the Jewish scriptures are the Jewish people's Bible. 2091 01:49:38.239 --> 01:49:42.079 The Jewish scholars themselves have a word to say about 2092 01:49:42.119 --> 01:49:45.239 their own scriptures, and what they say about Hosea chapter 2093 01:49:45.399 --> 01:49:49.600 six is important because they have all they have a voice, 2094 01:49:49.720 --> 01:49:50.159 it's their. 2095 01:49:50.119 --> 01:49:52.640 Bible, and they don't believe in. 2096 01:49:54.399 --> 01:49:58.479 Forty so one one and forty of the of this 2097 01:49:58.880 --> 01:50:04.039 esteemed public ca And you look at you love to 2098 01:50:04.159 --> 01:50:05.159 mock learning, and. 2099 01:50:06.159 --> 01:50:08.319 You don't know what fallacies are you've never heard of, 2100 01:50:08.399 --> 01:50:09.520 like a basic fallacy of. 2101 01:50:09.520 --> 01:50:13.199 A there's no fallacy in pointing out that appeal. 2102 01:50:12.960 --> 01:50:14.600 To authority as a fallacy. Do you think appeal to 2103 01:50:14.640 --> 01:50:15.439 authority is a fallacy? 2104 01:50:15.680 --> 01:50:19.680 It's not. It's not a fallacy. Can give an example. 2105 01:50:20.359 --> 01:50:22.199 Let you go to example, I go to my doctor. 2106 01:50:22.279 --> 01:50:25.039 I haven't never had a basic logic class. You don't 2107 01:50:25.039 --> 01:50:26.640 think an appeal to authority is a fallacy. 2108 01:50:27.279 --> 01:50:29.000 This is a silly argument. Let me explain why. 2109 01:50:29.119 --> 01:50:31.840 No, it's not, and authority is a fallacy. 2110 01:50:32.239 --> 01:50:35.479 You can let me speak. You see, you've lost the debate. 2111 01:50:37.520 --> 01:50:40.720 The debate as I was saying, No, I hadn't actually 2112 01:50:40.760 --> 01:50:41.319 that you said. 2113 01:50:41.319 --> 01:50:43.039 Appeal to authority is not a fallacy. 2114 01:50:44.359 --> 01:50:47.279 It's perfectly valid thing to do on occasions. And I'll 2115 01:50:47.279 --> 01:50:49.159 give an example. If I if I have an illness 2116 01:50:49.520 --> 01:50:51.560 and I go to my doctor and he assures me 2117 01:50:51.680 --> 01:50:54.159 that the illness is an illness X. 2118 01:50:54.199 --> 01:50:56.159 Okay, but where do you think it's at a paradigm level? 2119 01:50:56.960 --> 01:50:58.960 It is. It is a fallacy. At paradigm level. 2120 01:50:59.399 --> 01:51:02.640 I'm talking, you interrupt me. You're on a roll now 2121 01:51:02.720 --> 01:51:06.560 and you're interrupting, and the doctor sells me, oh, Paul, 2122 01:51:06.640 --> 01:51:10.039 you have disease X and you need treatment. I trust 2123 01:51:10.119 --> 01:51:12.439 my doctor to get it right. I rely on his 2124 01:51:12.560 --> 01:51:15.439 authority to give me information. I appeal to his authority. 2125 01:51:15.680 --> 01:51:17.319 When when my friend of mine says, I looked on 2126 01:51:17.399 --> 01:51:20.039 Google and I've seen this website and I don't no, no, 2127 01:51:20.439 --> 01:51:23.000 I'm trusting my doctor. That's an appeal to authority, which 2128 01:51:23.079 --> 01:51:23.880 is perfectly valid. 2129 01:51:24.520 --> 01:51:26.720 But that's that's not at the paradigm level. We're at 2130 01:51:26.760 --> 01:51:27.479 the paradigm level. 2131 01:51:27.640 --> 01:51:29.399 I'm not talking and I'm just talking about an appeal 2132 01:51:29.439 --> 01:51:30.720 to authority. That's all I'm saying. 2133 01:51:30.920 --> 01:51:34.560 That's called a fallacy. And because it is a fallacy, 2134 01:51:34.560 --> 01:51:35.199 I'm sorry. 2135 01:51:36.039 --> 01:51:37.760 You've not pointed out how it's a fallacy. In a 2136 01:51:37.840 --> 01:51:40.399 slighted you could be said, it's it's very fallacy. Just 2137 01:51:40.560 --> 01:51:41.600 claimed it the fallacy. 2138 01:51:42.239 --> 01:51:44.600 How is it claimed it's a fallacy? I made it up? 2139 01:51:44.680 --> 01:51:48.159 Yeah, okay, Well why is it a fallacy? My doctor? 2140 01:51:48.479 --> 01:51:49.960 We got to read we got to read this. 2141 01:51:51.479 --> 01:51:56.159 An expert physician, and I appeal to experts. 2142 01:51:56.439 --> 01:52:03.119 This is fallacies. That station It's just sorry, but it's 2143 01:52:03.119 --> 01:52:05.720 a fallacy. Why is it a fallacy? Take a Magic 2144 01:52:05.880 --> 01:52:08.359 Basic logic class and you'll get a list of the 2145 01:52:08.399 --> 01:52:10.760 informal fallacies, and one of the top ones there will 2146 01:52:10.840 --> 01:52:13.119 be a fallacy of authority. 2147 01:52:13.319 --> 01:52:15.119 Can you actually tell me why it's a fallacy. 2148 01:52:16.239 --> 01:52:18.640 Just tell me what I already have, because at the 2149 01:52:18.720 --> 01:52:21.840 paradigm level you can't appeal to human authorities like that. 2150 01:52:21.960 --> 01:52:24.600 When I'm asking you a paradigm level question. You know 2151 01:52:24.680 --> 01:52:27.359 about paradigms because you cited Thomas Kenny wrote a whole 2152 01:52:27.359 --> 01:52:30.479 book about it. I'm asking you a paradigmatic level question, 2153 01:52:30.920 --> 01:52:34.000 and you're saying that it's not amount of fallacy. 2154 01:52:34.159 --> 01:52:36.720 Paradigm today you're obsessed with paradigms. 2155 01:52:37.000 --> 01:52:39.560 That paradigm that's how that's how I do. That's how 2156 01:52:39.600 --> 01:52:39.760 I do. 2157 01:52:40.119 --> 01:52:43.439 But that's not how I do. You see them, was 2158 01:52:43.560 --> 01:52:47.319 only concerned with the structure of scientific revolutions and paradigm shifts. 2159 01:52:47.640 --> 01:52:49.840 Nothing to do with our paradigms of the Bible. 2160 01:52:49.960 --> 01:52:53.119 Not true, wrong, wrong, you're trying to do scientific You 2161 01:52:53.119 --> 01:52:57.159 said you're doing scientific exidesis you said you're doing scientific extrajicie, 2162 01:52:57.199 --> 01:52:58.039 it's the exact same thing. 2163 01:52:59.159 --> 01:53:01.239 You're not to let me speak, just to say that 2164 01:53:01.359 --> 01:53:06.159 this Bible completely disagrees these expert a Jewish scholarship. 2165 01:53:06.560 --> 01:53:10.760 Mind blown Jews that are expert Jews disagree with Christian 2166 01:53:12.159 --> 01:53:14.000 argument any evidence. 2167 01:53:14.039 --> 01:53:17.159 Some of the Jewish scriptures that that stated that the 2168 01:53:17.279 --> 01:53:19.760 Messiah would die and rise again on the third day. 2169 01:53:19.920 --> 01:53:23.000 This passage, they will not say that. It does not 2170 01:53:23.239 --> 01:53:25.680 say that, so you have failed in your effort. 2171 01:53:26.239 --> 01:53:29.319 Okay, all right, it sound to read superchats are ready? 2172 01:53:30.560 --> 01:53:33.960 All right? Thank you JD. From this lurking Nerd Joline 2173 01:53:34.039 --> 01:53:36.600 K nine ninety nine. Well, thank you, Joline, appreciate it. 2174 01:53:36.920 --> 01:53:39.520 Brandon Johnson one dollar, Thank you, Brandon, now Ke for 2175 01:53:39.640 --> 01:53:44.079 us focus five dollars, Thank you very much, nikever appreciate that. Frosty. 2176 01:53:44.319 --> 01:53:45.920 By the way, if you want to add the superchats, 2177 01:53:46.720 --> 01:53:49.319 now is the time, Frosty the bear of five dollars. 2178 01:53:49.359 --> 01:53:52.199 Jesus fulfilled every prophecy of his coming, as told in 2179 01:53:52.279 --> 01:53:55.119 the Torah and the prophets. How can that be denied? 2180 01:53:55.359 --> 01:53:57.760 I agree with that. That was one of the arguments, Paul. 2181 01:53:57.760 --> 01:54:01.079 You can respond to that I deny it. 2182 01:54:01.279 --> 01:54:05.600 Should I give an example where it is denied? Go ahead, okay. 2183 01:54:05.960 --> 01:54:10.800 There's a passage in Matthew's Gospel where Matthew says that 2184 01:54:10.880 --> 01:54:14.840 he fulfilled a prophecy that he will be called a Nazarene. 2185 01:54:15.920 --> 01:54:19.000 I'm not aware of any prophecy like this anywhere in 2186 01:54:19.159 --> 01:54:21.479 the Bible. Perhaps you can tell me where it is right. 2187 01:54:21.560 --> 01:54:24.880 Well, there are traditions we as you are aware of, 2188 01:54:24.880 --> 01:54:26.840 the Roman Catholic view and the Orthodox view agrees that 2189 01:54:26.840 --> 01:54:30.000 there's an oral tradition. Oral tradition doesn't just apply to 2190 01:54:30.039 --> 01:54:33.239 the Apostolic deposit. There's also oral traditions that Jesus appealed 2191 01:54:33.279 --> 01:54:36.199 to many times in the Gospels. And as I mentioned earlier, 2192 01:54:36.520 --> 01:54:40.680 Jeremiah speaks of the Pharisaic tradition. Even in Jeremiah's day, 2193 01:54:40.680 --> 01:54:42.640 there was some corruption in the Pharisee tradition. That's what 2194 01:54:42.720 --> 01:54:45.279 Jeremiah criticizes in his book. But we don't think that 2195 01:54:45.399 --> 01:54:49.319 everything that the Pharisees taught was erroneous. In fact, because 2196 01:54:49.359 --> 01:54:51.880 Matthew twenty three Jesus says describes in the Pharisees sit 2197 01:54:51.960 --> 01:54:55.159 in the seat of Moses. There's no direct Torah or 2198 01:54:55.239 --> 01:54:57.800 prophet explanation of what the seed of Moses is, but 2199 01:54:58.000 --> 01:55:00.920 is a succession of authority that traditional that you just 2200 01:55:01.000 --> 01:55:03.880 appealed to. So I would reply to you that that 2201 01:55:04.119 --> 01:55:06.439 text that you're talking about is a tradition. 2202 01:55:06.680 --> 01:55:09.319 Well, it says actually through the profits, So which profit. 2203 01:55:09.119 --> 01:55:11.920 Do we have? There are profits that that spoke and 2204 01:55:12.000 --> 01:55:13.920 taught oral traditions. 2205 01:55:14.039 --> 01:55:15.960 Yeah, So which which are the prophets? 2206 01:55:16.000 --> 01:55:17.359 Said that we don't know? 2207 01:55:18.439 --> 01:55:19.319 So how did Matthew know? 2208 01:55:20.720 --> 01:55:24.119 Because well, we believe in inspiration, so and argue men, 2209 01:55:24.319 --> 01:55:25.359 men can be inspired. 2210 01:55:25.399 --> 01:55:27.560 And also that's an arbitrary that is true. 2211 01:55:27.640 --> 01:55:28.840 No, it's not, No, it's not. I mean, if you 2212 01:55:28.880 --> 01:55:31.479 understand how Judio hasn't worked, they had an oral tradition 2213 01:55:31.600 --> 01:55:33.600 as well as a written tradition before the time of Christ. 2214 01:55:34.039 --> 01:55:35.800 If I said to you as it says in the Profits, 2215 01:55:35.840 --> 01:55:38.319 would you automatically assume you I was speaking about oral 2216 01:55:38.880 --> 01:55:40.279 works or tradition. 2217 01:55:40.359 --> 01:55:43.199 I would yes, because that's a common apologetic argument. 2218 01:55:43.000 --> 01:55:45.319 I make, very unusual because the profits, it's. 2219 01:55:45.159 --> 01:55:47.439 Not very unusual. It's a common apologetic argument we make. 2220 01:55:47.600 --> 01:55:50.760 So okay, we got we got to move on. 2221 01:55:50.880 --> 01:55:53.279 This is this to the Jewish prophets, and there are 2222 01:55:53.279 --> 01:55:55.159 no Jewish prophets ever said that. That's my point. 2223 01:55:55.319 --> 01:55:59.600 So Lieutenant c HF five dollars, thank you, Lieutenant spec 2224 01:55:59.720 --> 01:56:02.600 seven read eighty two. No comments on this. I'm waiting 2225 01:56:02.640 --> 01:56:04.920 for your Papacy series. It's gonna come. I promise you, 2226 01:56:05.000 --> 01:56:07.960 Speca there will be a treatment of the history of 2227 01:56:08.039 --> 01:56:11.359 the papacy coming soon. John Holloway five dollars. What would 2228 01:56:11.359 --> 01:56:14.680 you say the key difference is between Christian just warfare 2229 01:56:15.199 --> 01:56:19.640 and Islamic just warfare, or an Orthodox theocratic view versus 2230 01:56:19.680 --> 01:56:22.600 an Islamic view. I'll stay briefly my take on that, 2231 01:56:22.680 --> 01:56:24.119 and I'll let paulicy. I would say that if you 2232 01:56:24.159 --> 01:56:27.760 look at the history of Orthodox kingdoms, the businessing Empire, 2233 01:56:28.319 --> 01:56:30.560 you would see at least attempts. And obviously this wasn't 2234 01:56:30.600 --> 01:56:34.560 always done correctly or ideally, but there's there's typically the 2235 01:56:34.600 --> 01:56:39.199 attempts to have Biblical principles apply even to warfare. So 2236 01:56:39.720 --> 01:56:43.399 there's a book by McGuckin The Christian Scent of Christian 2237 01:56:43.479 --> 01:56:45.560 Law where he kind of traces the history of canon 2238 01:56:45.640 --> 01:56:49.479 law and how it influenced Byzantium and and so in 2239 01:56:49.600 --> 01:56:51.960 my view, I would say that we try to apply 2240 01:56:52.119 --> 01:56:53.920 He could look at something like the Catholic view of 2241 01:56:54.079 --> 01:56:56.359 just war. I mean that's you know, the Roman Catholic 2242 01:56:56.399 --> 01:56:58.880 and the Orthodox perspective historically have been kind of similar 2243 01:56:58.920 --> 01:57:02.560 on just war theory. Paul can feel free to answer 2244 01:57:03.039 --> 01:57:04.560 his view of theocracy. 2245 01:57:05.399 --> 01:57:10.840 There is a just war, clear boundaries and limitations on fighting. 2246 01:57:11.399 --> 01:57:14.199 She had military you had, it has to be done 2247 01:57:14.319 --> 01:57:18.920 for proportionately. You can't target women, children, babies, monks, and priests. 2248 01:57:19.119 --> 01:57:21.640 There's explicitly said in the teaching my Hammi's why isis 2249 01:57:22.000 --> 01:57:25.479 is so on Islamic because so barbaric and it's atrocities. 2250 01:57:25.600 --> 01:57:27.960 It has nothing to do with Islam. However, the Bible, 2251 01:57:28.079 --> 01:57:32.880 unfortunately is very different. Unfortunately, it advocates genocide. In one 2252 01:57:32.960 --> 01:57:36.159 Samuel fifteen, God is portrayed as someone who commands the 2253 01:57:36.239 --> 01:57:41.079 killing of women, children, babies, donkeys, camels. There is no 2254 01:57:41.399 --> 01:57:45.479 just war in the Bible. It's unrestricted genocide and slaughter 2255 01:57:45.880 --> 01:57:48.920 on an industrial scale. And I'm afraid if you want 2256 01:57:49.119 --> 01:57:51.840 just war, you're not going to find it in the Bible, 2257 01:57:51.920 --> 01:57:53.359 but you will find it in Islam. 2258 01:57:53.760 --> 01:57:56.720 Okay. For a fuller treatment of my response to the 2259 01:57:56.760 --> 01:57:58.600 things that Paul just said, I do have two talks. 2260 01:57:58.600 --> 01:58:01.319 If you listen to my traditional flash in Metaphysics series, 2261 01:58:01.399 --> 01:58:03.399 I actually cover the just war and the text that 2262 01:58:03.439 --> 01:58:07.760 he said talk about there those were specific instances where 2263 01:58:07.800 --> 01:58:10.199 God committed Israel to do those things, So I treat 2264 01:58:10.279 --> 01:58:13.680 that in more more detail. All right, so we move 2265 01:58:13.760 --> 01:58:16.079 on to bony M two dollars, Thank you bony M. 2266 01:58:16.800 --> 01:58:19.920 Lieutenant C. HF five dollars. I S L A M E. D. 2267 01:58:20.479 --> 01:58:22.479 I'm not sure what that means. N. C red Dollar 2268 01:58:22.600 --> 01:58:26.359 ninety nine. Modern crusade when no time for crusades or 2269 01:58:27.000 --> 01:58:30.239 that's not the way things work now, Mark Brown two dollars. 2270 01:58:30.399 --> 01:58:34.840 Well well done defending divinity of Jesus. Thank you, we 2271 01:58:35.119 --> 01:58:38.359 lad two dollars. He has not responded to the divine 2272 01:58:38.359 --> 01:58:41.279 simplicity criticism. No, I don't think that he did. Do 2273 01:58:41.399 --> 01:58:43.720 you have any response to the criticism I made of 2274 01:58:43.800 --> 01:58:47.039 the fact that if God's unicity is an absolutely viewed 2275 01:58:47.079 --> 01:58:48.920 in an absolute sense, that his act of creating the 2276 01:58:49.239 --> 01:58:51.840 world is also synonymous with his essence, which is eternal, 2277 01:58:52.000 --> 01:58:53.479 that would mean the creation is eternal. 2278 01:58:54.399 --> 01:58:56.000 No. I don't follow the logic of that at all. 2279 01:58:57.000 --> 01:59:00.880 God in Islam is someone who is absolute, eternal, uncous 2280 01:59:01.000 --> 01:59:03.880 cause of all that is in the universe, the space, time, continuum, 2281 01:59:03.920 --> 01:59:07.239 et cetera. He is eternally the creator, he's eternally loving, 2282 01:59:07.279 --> 01:59:10.520 he's eternally always attributes are eternal. 2283 01:59:10.840 --> 01:59:12.279 Is eternally the creator. 2284 01:59:13.039 --> 01:59:15.520 Yes, of course he doesn't. God doesn't. And unlike in Christianity, 2285 01:59:15.560 --> 01:59:18.000 where God changes, he becomes a man, he dies, and 2286 01:59:18.079 --> 01:59:21.680 so on, God being eternal does not does not change. 2287 01:59:22.399 --> 01:59:25.880 He's always doesn't mean he's always creating, but he's always 2288 01:59:25.920 --> 01:59:27.880 the creator and obviously. 2289 01:59:27.880 --> 01:59:30.239 The creation the creator. If he's not always creating. 2290 01:59:30.359 --> 01:59:32.880 Because he has the attributes of being a creator, that's 2291 01:59:32.880 --> 01:59:35.399 what it means. Yeah, that's what the word creator means, 2292 01:59:36.319 --> 01:59:36.880 being a creator. 2293 01:59:36.960 --> 01:59:39.279 How is he how is he an eternal creator when 2294 01:59:39.279 --> 01:59:39.840 he wasn't. 2295 01:59:39.680 --> 01:59:43.279 Creating, always creating any more than he has the attribute 2296 01:59:43.359 --> 01:59:46.520 of glory and love and compassion that he is always 2297 01:59:47.359 --> 01:59:50.159 in our space time sense doing those things. 2298 01:59:50.720 --> 01:59:53.960 Different Because because if he's an eternal is eternally creator, 2299 01:59:54.119 --> 01:59:58.239 then what's her creator of eternally? Well, he that's not 2300 01:59:58.359 --> 02:00:01.920 why the attributes breakdown. They're meaningless. 2301 02:00:02.319 --> 02:00:05.880 The universe is contingent, it's not necessary. 2302 02:00:05.560 --> 02:00:07.079 It's it's not an answer. That's not what I asked you. 2303 02:00:07.239 --> 02:00:10.039 Well, it's my answer. You may not like it's my answer. 2304 02:00:10.359 --> 02:00:13.560 And therefore there was a time when the universe didn't exist. 2305 02:00:13.600 --> 02:00:15.319 Now God, then God's not always creator. 2306 02:00:15.680 --> 02:00:18.960 God didn't change and become something he wasn't before because 2307 02:00:19.000 --> 02:00:20.000 God is perfect. 2308 02:00:19.720 --> 02:00:23.279 And then he's an internal creator. But in Christianity, refuted yourself. 2309 02:00:23.760 --> 02:00:26.600 You believe God died and God does not die. God 2310 02:00:26.720 --> 02:00:27.199 is immortal. 2311 02:00:27.279 --> 02:00:31.560 The Bible says that Jesus himself underwent Now you don't believe, 2312 02:00:31.600 --> 02:00:33.479 you don't know what we believe. He underwent death in 2313 02:00:33.520 --> 02:00:35.239 his humanity, that the Son of God did. 2314 02:00:35.199 --> 02:00:38.000 Not die, so the divinity of God, of God didn't die. 2315 02:00:38.279 --> 02:00:41.960 So you believe it impossible a human sacrifice that saves you, 2316 02:00:42.159 --> 02:00:45.199 when a human sacrifice again, is not a notion worthy 2317 02:00:45.279 --> 02:00:45.640 of God. 2318 02:00:45.680 --> 02:00:48.680 I'm afraid fact that you only determine what is worthy 2319 02:00:48.720 --> 02:00:50.359 of God or a notion worthy of God, within the 2320 02:00:50.399 --> 02:00:52.720 paradigm of the belief system itself. So you're you're using 2321 02:00:52.760 --> 02:00:53.600 an extra. 2322 02:00:54.199 --> 02:00:57.680 System, using the paradigm of the Bible, because the. 2323 02:00:58.560 --> 02:01:00.920 God requires God part of sacrifices. 2324 02:01:01.800 --> 02:01:04.760 My paradigm is the Jewish Bible, and what it says 2325 02:01:04.760 --> 02:01:05.960 about human sacrifice. 2326 02:01:06.279 --> 02:01:08.840 Well, that doesn't matter because we're not Jews. So you're 2327 02:01:09.039 --> 02:01:11.560 the paradigm of the Jewish BIBLEY not an argument against this. 2328 02:01:12.359 --> 02:01:15.239 The New Testament is a book written by people. I know. 2329 02:01:15.479 --> 02:01:20.279 Yeah, that's arbitrary, right, So the the was the Mosaic 2330 02:01:20.399 --> 02:01:21.720 Law written by people. 2331 02:01:21.840 --> 02:01:23.279 I don't think he was right. I don't think the 2332 02:01:23.279 --> 02:01:27.000 Apostles Law he was writing scripture when you pay. 2333 02:01:27.319 --> 02:01:29.039 Your arbitrary Paul, it's arbitrary. 2334 02:01:29.600 --> 02:01:31.479 There's just a word you're throwing out. Do you think 2335 02:01:31.520 --> 02:01:33.880 Paul realized he was writing holy scripture when you wrote one? 2336 02:01:34.079 --> 02:01:34.840 Absolutely? Yes. 2337 02:01:35.279 --> 02:01:37.760 No, But you see he didn't because he denied in 2338 02:01:37.840 --> 02:01:40.439 one Corinthians, chapter seven, verse twelve that what he was 2339 02:01:40.479 --> 02:01:41.319 saying was from God. 2340 02:01:41.600 --> 02:01:45.319 No, that's that's that's an example of that's an example 2341 02:01:45.399 --> 02:01:47.960 like listen, if you go to an Orthodox liturgy, you 2342 02:01:48.000 --> 02:01:51.760 will see an irreverence of the text in different levels. 2343 02:01:51.800 --> 02:01:54.640 So for example, I'm talking about you're not you're not 2344 02:01:54.680 --> 02:01:56.640 going to listen to what my explanation. So let's move on. 2345 02:01:58.079 --> 02:02:02.600 Lawrence ballinag two dollars the lad spent. Okay, thank you 2346 02:02:02.720 --> 02:02:07.920 appreciate that. Nickorepis focus again. Five dollars, thank you. Unrelated 2347 02:02:08.000 --> 02:02:09.520 question do you haven't Jay? Do you have a favorite 2348 02:02:09.520 --> 02:02:13.159 book dealing with the spiritual or ascetic life outside of 2349 02:02:13.199 --> 02:02:15.079 the Bible. Well, of course, the feel of Colia is good, 2350 02:02:15.159 --> 02:02:20.039 but I would say I usually go to my prayer book. 2351 02:02:20.039 --> 02:02:21.399 So if you don't have an Orthodox prayer book, I 2352 02:02:21.399 --> 02:02:24.319 would recommend having one of those. Lieutenant C. HF. Two 2353 02:02:24.399 --> 02:02:31.600 dollars Your your shirt is haram Paul Robino two pounds 2354 02:02:32.079 --> 02:02:35.960 Chad Jay versus Virgin Muslim. I'm not going to read 2355 02:02:35.960 --> 02:02:37.520 the other comments there so they might get us in 2356 02:02:37.560 --> 02:02:42.239 trouble Silver nas Gul five dollars Starting with Jay. Can 2357 02:02:42.279 --> 02:02:44.960 you go into the presubpositions of nature in person, especially 2358 02:02:45.079 --> 02:02:48.600 with regard to the hour? Why have you forsaken me? Yes, 2359 02:02:48.680 --> 02:02:52.159 we don't believe that Jesus is expressing from in an 2360 02:02:52.479 --> 02:02:55.720 aryan or human sense that he was forgotten of God. 2361 02:02:55.720 --> 02:02:58.640 He's quoting the Psalms. He's quoting David's experience of feeling death, 2362 02:02:58.920 --> 02:03:03.039 which shows that in the Gospel and Jesus perspective, every 2363 02:03:03.079 --> 02:03:06.199 time the time the Old Testament and the Psalms are cited, 2364 02:03:06.520 --> 02:03:08.920 they're cited christologically. So this is something that Paul and 2365 02:03:08.960 --> 02:03:10.960 I would disagree with. I don't think he understands that. 2366 02:03:11.439 --> 02:03:13.720 If you do a study of all of the texts 2367 02:03:13.840 --> 02:03:16.039 in the New Testament where they cite the Old Testament, 2368 02:03:16.399 --> 02:03:19.399 you will see that almost all the time it's interpreted christologically. 2369 02:03:19.439 --> 02:03:21.800 I know Paul reck rejects that, but what I'm saying. 2370 02:03:21.680 --> 02:03:25.239 Is that it's called Jesus east of Jesus. I agree 2371 02:03:25.279 --> 02:03:25.680 it's happening. 2372 02:03:25.720 --> 02:03:27.359 I agree, but Gesus. 2373 02:03:27.760 --> 02:03:32.279 Okay, again, that's why we went to paradigms, because in 2374 02:03:32.399 --> 02:03:34.319 order to judge when something's ice to Jesus and when 2375 02:03:34.359 --> 02:03:37.479 something's not right, we have to You are assuming that 2376 02:03:37.520 --> 02:03:40.039 there's a neutral critical stance, and I'm telling you that 2377 02:03:40.119 --> 02:03:42.840 there's not. I ask you multiple times that I asked 2378 02:03:42.840 --> 02:03:45.479 you multiple times how you determine your neutral critical stance 2379 02:03:45.800 --> 02:03:48.920 and you restated what a grammatical historical, neutral historical stance 2380 02:03:49.039 --> 02:03:51.079 is and I'm saying that doesn't exist. You admit that 2381 02:03:51.159 --> 02:03:53.279 it doesn't exist because you know about Thomas Kune. You 2382 02:03:53.319 --> 02:03:55.640 said that Thomas Kune doesn't apply because he's talking about science. 2383 02:03:55.880 --> 02:03:58.199 And then you said that your approaches scientific exto Jesus. 2384 02:03:58.279 --> 02:04:02.640 So you don't understand paradigms and you don't understand philosophy 2385 02:04:02.640 --> 02:04:03.239 in that regard. 2386 02:04:03.319 --> 02:04:05.920 Question Jay, about the crime there? Do you want to 2387 02:04:06.079 --> 02:04:07.479 deal with that someone gave you five dollars? 2388 02:04:08.359 --> 02:04:08.800 Which one? 2389 02:04:09.159 --> 02:04:14.560 It was a bit further up, it's about the trinity 2390 02:04:14.640 --> 02:04:16.239 and Mary and in the clan. 2391 02:04:17.119 --> 02:04:19.279 Oh I missed out. Okay, let's see, but where are 2392 02:04:19.319 --> 02:04:22.720 your nab Paul? Ask Paul why the Koran got the 2393 02:04:22.760 --> 02:04:25.640 Trinity wrong includes Mary if Allah is the true all 2394 02:04:25.720 --> 02:04:27.840 known God Koran five one sixty. 2395 02:04:28.840 --> 02:04:31.439 This, this is a misunderstanding. If you actually read the passage, 2396 02:04:31.560 --> 02:04:34.600 it doesn't mention a trinity at all. It says here, 2397 02:04:34.840 --> 02:04:38.079 and I'll read the quote. When God says, Jesus, son 2398 02:04:38.159 --> 02:04:40.560 of Mary, did you say to people, take me and 2399 02:04:40.680 --> 02:04:43.319 my mother as to gods alongside God? He will say 2400 02:04:43.399 --> 02:04:46.319 that's Jesus, may you be exalted. I would never say 2401 02:04:46.359 --> 02:04:48.000 what I have no right to say. If I had 2402 02:04:48.000 --> 02:04:50.159 said such a thing, you would have known it. So 2403 02:04:50.319 --> 02:04:53.960 he's basically denying that he ever asked people to worship 2404 02:04:54.039 --> 02:04:56.399 him as God or his mother as God. Yet they're 2405 02:04:56.399 --> 02:04:59.960 both be given divine titles by Christians, by Orthodox christ 2406 02:05:00.239 --> 02:05:05.399 particularly who are very load Mary with with these divine titles. 2407 02:05:05.880 --> 02:05:08.680 And the Crown corrects this is that either she nor 2408 02:05:08.880 --> 02:05:11.479 Jesus ever claimed these divine titles for themselves. 2409 02:05:11.760 --> 02:05:14.239 Okay, well again, I quoted at the beginning of the 2410 02:05:14.279 --> 02:05:18.199 debate in Luke. Early on, you have Elizabeth saying to Mary, 2411 02:05:18.199 --> 02:05:19.720 who am I to the mother of my Lord? Lord 2412 02:05:19.800 --> 02:05:25.119 is a divine title in the New Testament, and the 2413 02:05:25.279 --> 02:05:27.680 title the title mother of God does not mean she 2414 02:05:27.800 --> 02:05:29.760 caused his divinity. All it means is that she was 2415 02:05:29.840 --> 02:05:32.279 the means by All it means is that she was 2416 02:05:32.359 --> 02:05:34.199 the means by which the Son of God was born. 2417 02:05:34.520 --> 02:05:36.640 Paul should know that, but he's acting like he doesn't 2418 02:05:36.680 --> 02:05:38.000 know that. Christianity teaches that. 2419 02:05:39.479 --> 02:05:41.119 Tony Blass, I believe they do still. 2420 02:05:41.199 --> 02:05:44.560 Now, most Mary is not got Okay, nobody believes. 2421 02:05:44.319 --> 02:05:46.680 That she is treated as a de facto deity. 2422 02:05:46.920 --> 02:05:50.359 Okay, Well, I mean one of the areas where I'm 2423 02:05:50.359 --> 02:05:53.239 a specialist is in the question of Saint Cyril and 2424 02:05:53.520 --> 02:05:57.640 Ephesus uh. And the term mother of God does not 2425 02:05:57.760 --> 02:05:59.840 mean that she caused his divinity. So I'm telling you 2426 02:05:59.880 --> 02:06:01.000 that that's what we believe. 2427 02:06:01.479 --> 02:06:02.840 Of the Holy Spirit. What do you think about that 2428 02:06:02.920 --> 02:06:05.760 title given to marri We're not Roman Catholics, so, but 2429 02:06:06.159 --> 02:06:07.920 Roman Catholics call Mary's. 2430 02:06:07.720 --> 02:06:09.279 I'm not here to debate Roman Catholicism. 2431 02:06:09.319 --> 02:06:12.600 So I'm saying the biggest church in the world, I'm 2432 02:06:12.640 --> 02:06:18.239 not here to defend that this chronic criticism is still 2433 02:06:18.319 --> 02:06:19.199 very relevant today. 2434 02:06:19.800 --> 02:06:23.479 Okay, Robino, I'm going to try to make sure that 2435 02:06:23.479 --> 02:06:27.640 did miss these. Okay, some of these are a little leude. 2436 02:06:27.680 --> 02:06:30.600 I'm not going to read the lude ones Robino Jay 2437 02:06:30.680 --> 02:06:35.279 dire invite English humorous polliums. I don't get it, Pepe sells, 2438 02:06:35.279 --> 02:06:38.520 who's buying three dollars? Three dollars for the triying God? 2439 02:06:38.800 --> 02:06:42.560 Honk Lawrence ballinak to dollars? Think you? Lawrence Tannertary twenty dollars. Well, 2440 02:06:42.880 --> 02:06:44.960 Tannertary says Paul, I'm an expert when it comes to 2441 02:06:45.159 --> 02:06:50.680 programming computers can materialize a unicorn. I'm an I'm an expert. 2442 02:06:50.760 --> 02:06:54.000 Therefore it must be true that computers can materialize unicorns. 2443 02:06:54.319 --> 02:06:55.479 That's why this is a fallacy. 2444 02:06:56.680 --> 02:06:58.359 This is a very silly thing to say. 2445 02:06:58.960 --> 02:07:01.239 Well, I think he's illustrating why that's a fellasum. 2446 02:07:02.560 --> 02:07:04.840 I don't see anything to do with what I've said 2447 02:07:04.880 --> 02:07:07.840 about Jesus or God or the Choran a. 2448 02:07:07.840 --> 02:07:12.199 Connection, okay, Lieutenant HF five dollars. How can Paul say 2449 02:07:12.199 --> 02:07:16.199 that mess Anic prophecies in the Psalms might refer to Jesus, 2450 02:07:16.239 --> 02:07:18.640 but also at the same time that believes that the 2451 02:07:18.680 --> 02:07:20.680 Promise to Hagars talks about Muhammad. 2452 02:07:22.720 --> 02:07:25.399 That's two completely different things. There are massly any prophecies 2453 02:07:25.520 --> 02:07:28.840 which do not refer, ever in the Bible, to a 2454 02:07:28.920 --> 02:07:31.439 Messiah being God, or dying for sins, or dying for 2455 02:07:31.520 --> 02:07:33.000 any of what sins of the world. This is a 2456 02:07:33.119 --> 02:07:36.239 Christian story. It's a Christian myth. It's not I believed 2457 02:07:36.239 --> 02:07:39.359 by any Jews prior to the rise of Christianity, and 2458 02:07:39.479 --> 02:07:41.800 therefore I see no reason to believe it myself. It's 2459 02:07:41.840 --> 02:07:42.760 not taught by the churn. 2460 02:07:43.600 --> 02:07:46.720 Okay, by her WHI is five dollars. I just attended 2461 02:07:46.760 --> 02:07:49.039 my first Orthodox service and I loved it. Thank you Jay, Well, 2462 02:07:49.039 --> 02:07:52.039 thank you. By her helpe, you continue seeking out the 2463 02:07:52.119 --> 02:07:56.520 truth in that regard? What does ac five euro What 2464 02:07:56.720 --> 02:07:59.720 does Paul think about We're not going to read the 2465 02:08:00.159 --> 02:08:03.000 the ones I can't read a loud Mark Brown two dollars? 2466 02:08:03.079 --> 02:08:06.760 Ask Paul how logos fits into the current Well, let 2467 02:08:06.800 --> 02:08:09.119 me ask you this a couple I'll rephrase this. What 2468 02:08:09.239 --> 02:08:12.680 about the common objections that you hear kind of the 2469 02:08:14.560 --> 02:08:17.960 low level of program. You know, about the bad things 2470 02:08:18.039 --> 02:08:19.880 in Mohammed's life, which I'm not going to say public 2471 02:08:20.359 --> 02:08:22.680 because of the YouTube, you know, strictures. I'm not going 2472 02:08:22.720 --> 02:08:26.039 to say certain things, or about the way the Kuran 2473 02:08:26.079 --> 02:08:28.239 talks about the logos? What would you say about those things? Paul? 2474 02:08:28.560 --> 02:08:30.479 Look, so I don't know what, So can you give 2475 02:08:30.520 --> 02:08:33.119 me a passage to this is too vague. 2476 02:08:33.359 --> 02:08:35.880 Well, what I'm saying is that sometimes people will criticize 2477 02:08:35.960 --> 02:08:38.840 the moral, will say lifestyle of the prophet. 2478 02:08:39.279 --> 02:08:41.560 Give me example, because I didn't see. 2479 02:08:42.119 --> 02:08:43.960 I'll let the person who gave the question they can 2480 02:08:44.000 --> 02:08:44.680 add their example. 2481 02:08:44.960 --> 02:08:48.039 I'm not a sensitive about this, Jay, so I'm not good, but. 2482 02:08:48.079 --> 02:08:51.279 I'm concerned about the way YouTube works with questions and censorship. 2483 02:08:51.359 --> 02:08:51.680 That's all. 2484 02:08:52.079 --> 02:08:54.560 Oh, always see. No, that's a good point, j in 2485 02:08:54.600 --> 02:08:54.920 that case. 2486 02:08:55.359 --> 02:08:58.520 Yeah, so we'll ask the next one. Mark says, Paul, 2487 02:08:58.640 --> 02:09:00.479 how does logos fit into the Kuran? 2488 02:09:02.119 --> 02:09:05.079 Locos is a Greek term meaning reason or thought. I'm 2489 02:09:05.079 --> 02:09:07.680 not aware that term is used as such in the Koran? 2490 02:09:10.319 --> 02:09:15.600 Tan or terry. Five dollars, Paul, Kuran, Well, we already 2491 02:09:15.640 --> 02:09:19.319 had that, Tanner, We already had that. That's that question 2492 02:09:19.680 --> 02:09:24.079 about five one sixteen, Grandma for Alexander five dollars, lads, 2493 02:09:24.239 --> 02:09:27.079 I haven't seen a stream this lit in a while. Well, 2494 02:09:27.119 --> 02:09:30.199 thank you, Grandma. I hope you enjoyed it. Jack Henney, 2495 02:09:31.359 --> 02:09:35.000 all must see com I don't know Arabic? What does that? 2496 02:09:35.119 --> 02:09:35.159 Do? 2497 02:09:35.199 --> 02:09:38.239 You know what that means? All? My see Kam come 2498 02:09:39.560 --> 02:09:43.079 so I don't know where that was it, Robino two 2499 02:09:43.159 --> 02:09:46.640 dollars last donation. Thank you for this great stream. All right, well, 2500 02:09:46.680 --> 02:09:49.600 thank you. Let's see do we have any more? I 2501 02:09:49.600 --> 02:09:52.520 don't see anymore coming in. But well that was heated. 2502 02:09:52.560 --> 02:09:55.399 I'm glad that that it got kind of hot. The 2503 02:09:55.479 --> 02:09:59.560 audience always likes a little bit of heat. I did 2504 02:09:59.720 --> 02:10:01.960 enjoy even though we got here, and I hope it wasn't. 2505 02:10:01.960 --> 02:10:04.680 Too again, I'm happy and it's a bit cold here 2506 02:10:04.680 --> 02:10:06.079 in England, so I don't mean I don't mind a 2507 02:10:06.119 --> 02:10:06.800 bit of heat at all. 2508 02:10:07.800 --> 02:10:12.600 Okay, let's see, I'll let you if you want to 2509 02:10:12.720 --> 02:10:14.920 give out your website, I'll put everybody's link, you know, 2510 02:10:14.960 --> 02:10:17.479 our links below and if I remember the questions that 2511 02:10:17.520 --> 02:10:20.079 were asking me, I'll put links to specific answer questions 2512 02:10:20.600 --> 02:10:23.880 as well. Paul, do you want to let everybody know 2513 02:10:24.039 --> 02:10:26.199 what your website is and where they can. 2514 02:10:26.119 --> 02:10:28.560 Find you and what you'll be Yeah, it's called blogging 2515 02:10:28.640 --> 02:10:32.399 Theology to blogging Theology the number two dot com Blogging 2516 02:10:32.439 --> 02:10:35.920 Theology too dot com, And it's a forum, a safe 2517 02:10:35.960 --> 02:10:38.640 space where Christians and Muslims and others can debate and 2518 02:10:38.720 --> 02:10:42.479 discuss articles. There's no restriction on people. People say, as 2519 02:10:42.520 --> 02:10:45.760 long as they're not abusive, and you're welcome to stop by, 2520 02:10:45.840 --> 02:10:50.680 read the articles, comment, disagree. Disagreement is absolutely fine. You 2521 02:10:50.720 --> 02:10:52.960 can say things you disagree about Islam. I'm not sensitive 2522 02:10:52.960 --> 02:10:53.600 about that at all. 2523 02:10:54.520 --> 02:10:57.239 There's one last there's another question here. Spec. Seven for 2524 02:10:57.399 --> 02:11:00.319 nine nine says, isn't there a different He says, isn't 2525 02:11:00.359 --> 02:11:05.119 there only one Qur'an because the others were destroyed if 2526 02:11:05.159 --> 02:11:06.720 they conflicted? Is that true? 2527 02:11:07.520 --> 02:11:11.439 Uh? Not really that that's a myth. What happened was 2528 02:11:11.479 --> 02:11:14.159 at the time of Uthman, here was the third caliph 2529 02:11:14.479 --> 02:11:19.439 in Islam and the seventh and eighth centuries, islamas spreading 2530 02:11:19.560 --> 02:11:21.439 throughout the Middle East and what we call you know, 2531 02:11:21.600 --> 02:11:25.119 Iran and the Middle East and North Africa. It was 2532 02:11:25.159 --> 02:11:29.199 an oral it was mainly an oral recitation, and non 2533 02:11:29.319 --> 02:11:32.399 Muslims obviously becoming Muslims as well, and the purity of 2534 02:11:32.479 --> 02:11:37.600 the original tech the original recitation was changing and there 2535 02:11:37.680 --> 02:11:41.800 was and people were noticing that different kinds of you know, 2536 02:11:41.840 --> 02:11:44.880 there's a danger of the Kran becoming corrupted. And what 2537 02:11:45.000 --> 02:11:48.479 Othman decided to do he created this odor, this codex 2538 02:11:48.520 --> 02:11:52.680 basically with all the agreement of the companions, and they 2539 02:11:52.760 --> 02:11:57.880 created together all the written records of what the Hammad 2540 02:11:57.880 --> 02:11:59.920 had given them about the Kran says, and he created 2541 02:12:00.079 --> 02:12:03.279 this text, which was then copied, and copies of it 2542 02:12:03.359 --> 02:12:07.720 were sent out to the various parts of the Islamic Empire. 2543 02:12:08.039 --> 02:12:11.439 And all the other copies were ordered to be destroyed 2544 02:12:11.439 --> 02:12:13.760 because they might contain errors. They might have been written 2545 02:12:13.840 --> 02:12:17.479 down when someone misunderstood something, you know, thousands of miles 2546 02:12:17.520 --> 02:12:20.600 away from Medina or Mecca. So that was the purpose. 2547 02:12:20.600 --> 02:12:23.239 It was to protect the purity of the original revelation. 2548 02:12:24.359 --> 02:12:26.600 And so it was all Muslims now, except that the 2549 02:12:26.760 --> 02:12:30.720 Othmanic Codex is the original codex and Western scholars, I 2550 02:12:30.800 --> 02:12:33.199 know you hate this, but Western scholars accept this and 2551 02:12:33.279 --> 02:12:35.439 they see it as historically reliable. 2552 02:12:37.000 --> 02:12:39.680 Okay. I did have a couple of questions about the 2553 02:12:39.840 --> 02:12:43.199 uploading the stream. I'm not giving people permission to upload 2554 02:12:43.239 --> 02:12:45.399 all of my streams, just this stream. If you want 2555 02:12:45.479 --> 02:12:48.119 to upload it, I don't care, but just please have 2556 02:12:48.560 --> 02:12:52.359 a link to the channel. And we had another question, 2557 02:12:52.640 --> 02:12:57.000 Eric Gernberg ten dollars, Jay, can you read Isaiah fifty 2558 02:12:57.039 --> 02:12:59.439 three and other biblical passes? Is about the coming of 2559 02:12:59.479 --> 02:13:02.479 the Messiah, his divinity I mean, I'm sure that Paul 2560 02:13:02.600 --> 02:13:05.600 has a pat response to that. I mean, you know, 2561 02:13:05.800 --> 02:13:09.319 obviously we think that the suffering servant and these texts 2562 02:13:09.439 --> 02:13:12.600 do refer to the Messiah, they do talk about his suffering, 2563 02:13:13.520 --> 02:13:17.039 but again we disagree at a paradigmatic level. What do 2564 02:13:17.079 --> 02:13:18.079 you think about those texts. 2565 02:13:19.159 --> 02:13:22.319 It's a good question. I'm frequently asked about this by Christians. 2566 02:13:22.760 --> 02:13:26.039 I just want people to notice one thing. Realize I 2567 02:13:26.319 --> 02:13:29.319 fifty three, and do you ever notice the Messiah a 2568 02:13:29.399 --> 02:13:33.439 Messiah ever mentioned? It's not mentioned, And in fact, the 2569 02:13:33.680 --> 02:13:36.680 Isaiah fifty three is the fourth or four servants songs 2570 02:13:36.880 --> 02:13:40.960 STI mentioned scottars I apologize for now. 2571 02:13:41.039 --> 02:13:46.920 It's just that it's arbitrary because because Messiah is you 2572 02:13:47.199 --> 02:13:49.640 have these arbitrary categories, you said, because the text doesn't 2573 02:13:49.640 --> 02:13:53.840 say you erect arbitrary categories about it. 2574 02:13:54.680 --> 02:13:56.439 Just continue. There are four servant songs. As I think 2575 02:13:56.560 --> 02:13:59.199 Jay knows full well, this is the last. The servant 2576 02:13:59.279 --> 02:14:01.920 is clearly identif to find Israel itself. This is a 2577 02:14:02.000 --> 02:14:06.640 poetic passage, it's a figure of speech. It is understood 2578 02:14:06.680 --> 02:14:09.479 now by Hebrew scholars as it was then to refer 2579 02:14:09.640 --> 02:14:12.119 to Israel itself in captivity and. 2580 02:14:12.760 --> 02:14:15.439 You just don't have that exegesis of messy passages. By 2581 02:14:15.479 --> 02:14:17.479 the way, that's something that you've made up to explain 2582 02:14:17.560 --> 02:14:18.199 away what it is. 2583 02:14:19.720 --> 02:14:22.279 Well, what I'm saying is that this passage doesn't speak 2584 02:14:22.359 --> 02:14:24.279 of a Messiah, doesn't mention a Messiah. 2585 02:14:24.560 --> 02:14:26.760 It doesn't have to mention it by name. Paul I 2586 02:14:26.880 --> 02:14:29.479 already dismantled because I can't. 2587 02:14:29.319 --> 02:14:32.079 Say it's a passage and then it never mentions a Messiah. 2588 02:14:32.159 --> 02:14:35.600 That's kind of that's very weak, are very weak argument. Indeed, 2589 02:14:35.960 --> 02:14:39.239 you've got to have some so any so any text. 2590 02:14:39.800 --> 02:14:41.439 How do you know that a text has to have 2591 02:14:41.600 --> 02:14:43.960 the term Messiah and it to be a Messianic prediction, 2592 02:14:44.000 --> 02:14:45.359 because the Jews don't be it that way. 2593 02:14:45.800 --> 02:14:49.079 Because you could then say any passage of the Old Testament, 2594 02:14:49.199 --> 02:14:51.880 I choose arbitrarily, and I'm going to use your word now, 2595 02:14:52.079 --> 02:14:55.960 it's entirely arbitrary which passages you say are Messianic or not. 2596 02:14:57.000 --> 02:14:59.960 Isai fifty three in context, if you read the Isaiah 2597 02:15:00.000 --> 02:15:04.439 fifty two and fifty four, nobody denies to Israel. It's 2598 02:15:04.520 --> 02:15:08.199 not about were because of the context. 2599 02:15:09.039 --> 02:15:12.600 We agree about the historical context, and there's a mirrored 2600 02:15:12.640 --> 02:15:14.800 fulfillment Okay, so there's no denying that. 2601 02:15:15.399 --> 02:15:18.520 Fulfillment in the Jewish scriptures. I'm sorry, that's not that's. 2602 02:15:18.239 --> 02:15:21.840 Not but you're not understanding that even the Jews believe 2603 02:15:21.920 --> 02:15:24.960 that David was writing about David and the coming Messiah. 2604 02:15:25.239 --> 02:15:29.159 Okay, can you grasp that fifty three is not a 2605 02:15:29.279 --> 02:15:30.760 mirrored anything he's talking about is. 2606 02:15:31.039 --> 02:15:35.680 I'm talking all the Messianic prophecies are a historical reference 2607 02:15:35.720 --> 02:15:38.239 to their day and to the coming time of the Messiah. 2608 02:15:38.520 --> 02:15:42.079 What's the evidence of that? Is typically that way, Well, 2609 02:15:42.199 --> 02:15:45.039 where's evidence for that? Where's the evidence for that? 2610 02:15:45.479 --> 02:15:47.680 Look at any look at any Jewish list of what 2611 02:15:47.720 --> 02:15:50.119 the Messianic prophecies are. They will talk the Jewish study 2612 02:15:50.199 --> 02:15:51.760 bibble that you have. I have that same Jewish study 2613 02:15:51.800 --> 02:15:54.439 Bible when they talk about Messianic prophecies and the Psalms, 2614 02:15:54.479 --> 02:15:57.119 they don't deny that it's also historically about David. 2615 02:15:58.960 --> 02:16:02.239 H The idea that the Christian belief is very clear. 2616 02:16:02.479 --> 02:16:04.800 I just refuted you hang on, hang on that God 2617 02:16:04.880 --> 02:16:06.520 became a man and died on the back. 2618 02:16:06.600 --> 02:16:09.520 That's not an answer to the question about predictions. It's 2619 02:16:09.560 --> 02:16:11.560 not an answer to what I just said about. 2620 02:16:12.760 --> 02:16:15.640 Don't override me this, This claim which Paul says, and 2621 02:16:15.640 --> 02:16:18.960 when Corinthian's uh is actually referenced in the in the 2622 02:16:19.000 --> 02:16:24.319 Jewish Bible, is without any foundation whatsoever in the Jewish scriptures. 2623 02:16:24.439 --> 02:16:26.600 Isaiah fifty three doesn't get you out of that hole. 2624 02:16:26.640 --> 02:16:28.960 I'm afraid it doesn't mention a besides, doesn't mention the 2625 02:16:29.039 --> 02:16:30.439 death of missile. It doesn't mention. 2626 02:16:31.560 --> 02:16:35.719 Categories that don't you appealed to the Jews? Do you 2627 02:16:35.760 --> 02:16:38.079 appel to the Jews? You appeal to the Jews, And 2628 02:16:38.200 --> 02:16:40.959 when Jews read the Psalms of David, they think they're messianic, 2629 02:16:41.079 --> 02:16:43.799 and they don't all mention the word Messiah. You made 2630 02:16:43.879 --> 02:16:46.840 up your own category to escape the force of the argument. 2631 02:16:47.200 --> 02:16:49.600 Can you cite me who believes they're going to. 2632 02:16:51.200 --> 02:16:55.239 We're going to move on two dollars? Enjoyed this traditional 2633 02:16:55.319 --> 02:16:58.559 Christian five pounds? Can you explain Paul using appeal to 2634 02:16:58.680 --> 02:17:05.760 authority with and vsa V his doctor analogy? I don't 2635 02:17:05.760 --> 02:17:07.520 know if you're asking me or him. I don't understand 2636 02:17:07.559 --> 02:17:10.600 the question. Actually, can let me let me reread this. 2637 02:17:10.719 --> 02:17:14.280 Can I explain Paul using appeal to authority as in 2638 02:17:14.440 --> 02:17:20.280 like a fallacy with scholars? Vsa V his doctor analogy. 2639 02:17:21.639 --> 02:17:23.399 I'm sorry, I can't. I don't understand the question. 2640 02:17:23.479 --> 02:17:28.120 But uh, I'm opinion to authority when I see my doctor. 2641 02:17:28.440 --> 02:17:29.799 But you seem to think it's a fallacy. 2642 02:17:29.840 --> 02:17:32.280 And how is it a fallacy because we're at the 2643 02:17:32.360 --> 02:17:34.559 level of paradigms, and at the level of paradigms, you 2644 02:17:34.639 --> 02:17:37.239 can't appeal to a lesser authority to validate the paradigm. 2645 02:17:37.600 --> 02:17:40.120 Paradigms is something I'm asking. 2646 02:17:39.920 --> 02:17:41.799 You paradigmatic questions, and you. 2647 02:17:41.840 --> 02:17:45.280 Can't logical point a logical point. You said, it's a 2648 02:17:45.440 --> 02:17:46.319 logical fallacy. 2649 02:17:46.399 --> 02:17:49.079 You don't understand what methologic is. You don't understand how 2650 02:17:49.079 --> 02:17:49.760 world us work. 2651 02:17:50.040 --> 02:17:53.680 My doctor for him on his authority to correctly diagnose 2652 02:17:53.959 --> 02:17:54.559 my illness. 2653 02:17:54.799 --> 02:17:57.959 It's not It is not a paradigmatic level question. Going 2654 02:17:58.040 --> 02:18:00.200 to the doctor and getting sick and using that as 2655 02:18:00.200 --> 02:18:04.520 an analogy is not a paradigmatic level question logical fallacy. Therefore, 2656 02:18:05.440 --> 02:18:08.360 it is a logical fallacy. Paul, go look up any 2657 02:18:08.440 --> 02:18:09.319 basic list of. 2658 02:18:11.680 --> 02:18:12.879 I did a degree. 2659 02:18:13.040 --> 02:18:15.520 Oh, nobody cares about your degree and where you studied. 2660 02:18:15.920 --> 02:18:19.840 That's a fallacy too, That's a fallacy. To appeal to consensus, 2661 02:18:20.040 --> 02:18:26.680 appeal to appeal to popularity, appeal to prestige, that's a fallacy. Yeah, 2662 02:18:27.799 --> 02:18:31.719 I do logic, that's a fallacy. How's that obsessed? 2663 02:18:32.000 --> 02:18:34.600 I don't care it means anything. You're just throwing around 2664 02:18:34.639 --> 02:18:37.000 like confetti as if this proves anything. It doesn't prove anything. 2665 02:18:37.440 --> 02:18:39.840 It proves that you don't know basic logic. That's why 2666 02:18:39.920 --> 02:18:40.639 you lost the debate. 2667 02:18:42.120 --> 02:18:44.559 I'll go to my library, I show the textbooks I use. 2668 02:18:46.200 --> 02:18:48.239 Are you are you? Are you that arrogant that we 2669 02:18:48.440 --> 02:18:51.040 care that you go to some fancy library and pull 2670 02:18:51.120 --> 02:18:55.319 up textbooks. Nobody cares about where you went to school. 2671 02:18:55.639 --> 02:18:58.520 It's how a debate works. You lost because you didn't 2672 02:18:58.559 --> 02:19:00.600 know what a basic fallacy was. That's where he lost 2673 02:19:00.600 --> 02:19:00.920 the debate. 2674 02:19:01.559 --> 02:19:04.479 You lost because you never actually pointed out not a fallacy, 2675 02:19:05.239 --> 02:19:06.040 it's not a fallacy. 2676 02:19:06.719 --> 02:19:08.920 Appeal to authority as a fallacy. 2677 02:19:09.200 --> 02:19:13.719 Why is it? Just tell me, just tell me now 2678 02:19:13.959 --> 02:19:14.840 why it's a fallacy. 2679 02:19:14.959 --> 02:19:17.360 Don't for the fifth time, for the fifth time. It's 2680 02:19:17.360 --> 02:19:21.840 an appeal to authorities, because, especially at the paradigm level, 2681 02:19:22.159 --> 02:19:24.479 you can't appeal to a lesser authority to uh to 2682 02:19:24.680 --> 02:19:28.280 vindicate something that is paradigmatic. Okay, that's why that. 2683 02:19:30.799 --> 02:19:32.760 Sentence Jane, I didn't understand that sentence. 2684 02:19:32.799 --> 02:19:34.440 I know you didn't understand that sentence. That's why I've 2685 02:19:34.479 --> 02:19:36.600 repeated it ten times in the debate. I still want 2686 02:19:36.680 --> 02:19:39.040 So we're done, Okay, we can. I can't keep going 2687 02:19:39.079 --> 02:19:40.559 on this all day. We're going for a long time. 2688 02:19:40.600 --> 02:19:42.200 I've got other things. I got it. We can. We 2689 02:19:42.280 --> 02:19:45.319 can schedule another debate. This has been. This has been 2690 02:19:45.399 --> 02:19:48.920 I think, really cool again. So Paul's I'll have his 2691 02:19:49.079 --> 02:19:51.639 links below. I'm glad I got he did. Don't want 2692 02:19:51.680 --> 02:19:54.079 to get too heated, don't want things to continue on. 2693 02:19:55.760 --> 02:19:57.319 I'm gonna have to get out here in a minute. 2694 02:19:57.319 --> 02:19:58.719 I can't keep going forever, even though this was a 2695 02:19:58.760 --> 02:20:01.280 lot of fun. Okay, So so thank you guys, Paul, 2696 02:20:01.360 --> 02:20:04.159 thank you very much. I appreciate it. Forgive me if 2697 02:20:04.200 --> 02:20:07.799 I was too passionate, but I do get very passionate 2698 02:20:07.840 --> 02:20:08.120 about this. 2699 02:20:08.479 --> 02:20:09.559 That's fine, don't worry. 2700 02:20:09.639 --> 02:20:09.760 Jay. 2701 02:20:09.799 --> 02:20:12.559 I like you, Jay. Finally, I like your passion. I 2702 02:20:12.600 --> 02:20:16.079 appreciate your integrity, I appreciate your passion for truth, passion 2703 02:20:16.159 --> 02:20:20.879 for the truth. And we can certainly schedule another or 2704 02:20:21.680 --> 02:20:25.040 schedule schedule another event at some time in the future. 2705 02:20:25.040 --> 02:20:26.879 All right, And yeah, maybe we'll pick a different sort 2706 02:20:26.920 --> 02:20:29.959 of more specified topic, so we're not kind of doing everything. 2707 02:20:30.000 --> 02:20:32.159 Maybe that's a very good point. I would like to 2708 02:20:32.280 --> 02:20:34.920 narrow this down because it's a rush thing and I'm thinking, 2709 02:20:35.040 --> 02:20:36.239 oh my god, there's ten points I got. 2710 02:20:36.600 --> 02:20:39.280 You know me too, I've got a whole bunch of notes. 2711 02:20:39.319 --> 02:20:41.239 But we do have one last question here, all right, 2712 02:20:41.280 --> 02:20:44.559 So mister Williams, can you talk to a monk to 2713 02:20:44.639 --> 02:20:46.959 guide you to clean your news, to find God in 2714 02:20:47.040 --> 02:20:48.200 your heart? And then debate? 2715 02:20:49.360 --> 02:20:52.799 So that's I I didn't even understand the question. What 2716 02:20:52.879 --> 02:20:53.200 was the question? 2717 02:20:53.239 --> 02:20:56.040 Again? Part of the question was would you be willing 2718 02:20:56.079 --> 02:21:00.280 to go talk to a monastic person and learn about 2719 02:21:01.159 --> 02:21:03.520 the Orthodox Church? As I think he's getting. 2720 02:21:03.639 --> 02:21:05.879 Well, what I did was when I was a I 2721 02:21:05.920 --> 02:21:07.600 went to Court Abbey on the Isle of Wight, which 2722 02:21:07.600 --> 02:21:11.360 is a very conservative, traditional Catholic monastery. It's it's a 2723 02:21:11.520 --> 02:21:14.360 contemplate to community and I've often been there on retreat, 2724 02:21:14.440 --> 02:21:17.920 not as a Muslim, but before I did. So, you know, 2725 02:21:18.319 --> 02:21:21.559 I like monasteries. I like the monastic life. I like 2726 02:21:21.680 --> 02:21:24.959 the silence and the reverence and the spirituality and the 2727 02:21:24.959 --> 02:21:28.120 good food usually, so I don't feel need now to 2728 02:21:28.200 --> 02:21:29.280 go back to a monastery and. 2729 02:21:29.280 --> 02:21:29.799 Hang out there. 2730 02:21:31.280 --> 02:21:31.360 Uh. 2731 02:21:31.600 --> 02:21:33.520 I think they were talking about Orthodox monster, which would 2732 02:21:33.520 --> 02:21:36.399 be which would would be different from real usson. But anyway, 2733 02:21:36.479 --> 02:21:38.000 all right, we got I'm going to have to end it. 2734 02:21:38.360 --> 02:21:41.719 This this has gone on. It's very it was very enjoyable. 2735 02:21:42.639 --> 02:21:46.360 I appreciate his approach. He was able to deal with 2736 02:21:46.479 --> 02:21:50.920 my heatedness. And God bless everybody. Thank you for watching. 2737 02:21:51.079 --> 02:21:54.440 And again I stress you can upload this, this discussion, 2738 02:21:54.520 --> 02:21:56.879 but please, that doesn't that's not giving you permission to 2739 02:21:56.959 --> 02:21:58.920 upload all of my other videos and talk to those 2740 02:21:58.959 --> 02:22:00.959 are online. Ask me for permission. This one you can 2741 02:22:01.040 --> 02:22:03.399 upload as long as you put links to the talk 2742 02:22:04.239 --> 02:22:06.319 and anyway, have a good night. Thank you very much. 2743 02:22:06.920 --> 02:22:07.719 So i'mily come