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Speaker 1: Let's not try. Let's try to avoid that. Don't waste

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your money on super chest. The way it's going to

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be structured is I'll open up the discussion. I'll give

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a little introduction to who I am, because this might

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go on other people's channels if they want to put

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it up. I don't really have a problem with that.

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So I'll say who I am and what I do briefly.

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I'll let Paul do that, and then I'll start with

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my stuff. And what we're going to do is an

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eight minute back and forth, so I'll let him go

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eight minutes. I'll go eight minutes, et cetera, et cetera,

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back and forth, and then we'll have a kind of

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a conversational style exchange and then we'll take the questions.

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So we don't have any set time limit, So feel

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free to ask super Qui supertach questions if you want

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to to both of us. Again, keep them civil, let's

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not get crazy here. And then if you want to, Paul,

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you can go ahead and introduce yourself to my audience

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and let them know what you do and whatever you're

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comfortable saying about your background and where they can find

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your materials and I'll have all those links below. Hello, right,

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can you hear me now?

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Speaker 2: All right? Hello Ramadagma barak to all my Muslim listeners

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who are listening in and Solam Mooricum and this Mila

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Rachamanerakim in the name of God, the most gracious and

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most merciful. That's how we begin any action in Islam.

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I live in London. I attend because corner regularly. I

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was there earlier on today, and I'm well known to

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some Muslims in London for dour work. I give talks

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at Regent's part Mosque, which is the premier mosque in London.

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I think I give talks on and Christianity and so on.

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I haven an ordinary day job, but I was based

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in London, and I'm very grateful to Jay from inviting

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me on today to have this dialogue, this discussion about

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the Trinity and tao Heed. I guess or Trinity in

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the Bible we believe as Muslims in in the tow

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he the on this of God. But then that is

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applicit critique. I guess of other beliefs, but with doubtless

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come into that joined me to begin an eight minutes

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that's much just my intro. Ja.

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Speaker 1: I just figure we'd do intros because this might go

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on other people's channels, and I gave people permission if

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they want to do that, And thank you to Lewis

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and others that set this up. So this was I

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didn't set this up. But so I do Jay's Analysis,

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which is a film philosophy, geopolitics, all over the place

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kind of analysis. I'm the author of two books on movies,

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Esoteric Hollywood one and two. I co created the TV

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show Hollywood Be Coded. My master's is in English and

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lit and philosophy, and I would say that my expertise

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is in the realm of worldviews. So I do worldview

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paradigm analysis, and most of my critiques, whether it's Darwinism,

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whether it's other religious perspectives, or whether it's rom Catholicism

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or whatever. I might be debating Protestants whoever atheists. My

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critique is usually from the philosophic perspective. But I also

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have many years in terms of biblical studies, so I

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come from an Orthodox perspective. So I'll be defending orthodox

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Christianity what I believe to be the true expression of Christianity.

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And then I will apparently, I'll go ahead and give

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myself the first eight minutes to start. And before I

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started saying I don't profess to be any expert on Islam,

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I did take college courses that dealt with the history

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of Islam and the Kuran and so forth. It's been

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many years since I've interacted with Islamic thinkers or apologists,

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maybe ten years, so I'm happy to have this kind

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of thing set up. It'll be interesting exchange for me.

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In most of the time, I've not been able to

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find find a Muslim apologist, so I'm glad that that

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Paul was willing to do it. So I'll start my

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timer now. And what I would say is that my

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first point, and I did have a chance to listen

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to some of your debates, Paul, I thought you had

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some interesting critiques, some of which I haven't heard, a

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lot of which I have heard. So the first starting

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point I would say is that I think we have

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a different conception of number one authority, how we know

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what we know, and how to approach the Biblical texts.

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I think from your vantage point, what I got in

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a lot of your debates was that you see the

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text as a disjunction, a disjointed series of books that

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Paul kind of is set against Jesus. Paul is set

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against the Law and the Old Testament, almost kind of

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a Lutheran style of reading. I'm not seeing a Lutheran

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but and it's the kind of analysis that we would

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see in a lot of higher critics. So I'm very

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familiar with the origins of higher criticism, with Julius Bellhausen,

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how it developed over time, and how it came to

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be the Jesus quest, a lot of the liberal scholarship,

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the Jesuits and so forth, it kind of got that

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going at the turn of the century. And I would

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say that this is curious because this is really a

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new approach to the texts. This is not a historic

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Islamic approach to the text. Again, not an Islamic expert,

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but it seems to be a kind of adopted approach

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that many anti Christian apologists have sort of jumped on

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board with. And the reason I think it's a bit

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dubious and maybe ad hoc and in many ways contradictory,

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is because there's no real way for the textual critic.

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And I do have some familiarity with this field there's

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no real way for the textual critic to know that

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a lot of the theories that are proposed are true

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or not. So it functions on the basis of a

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lot of presuppositions. I heard you in one of your debates.

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You spoke of Thomas kun and paradigms. I'm glad you

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mentioned that, because when I listened to your talks, I

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heard a lot of shifting notions of how we conceive

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of authority within our own paradigms. So for you, there

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was an attempt many times to appeal to the Bible,

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and you would appeal to texts that you believed or

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at least as I understood you to do in your

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approach to believe to be authentic. Like this section of

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what Jesus is saying in this Gospel, he's saying keep

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the law. Another section. Oh well, scholar XYZ has shown

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us that this section was made up. Now, I don't

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fault you for trying to do that, because as an

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apologist for your religion, that would be what you want

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to do. You want to show a contradiction in our perspective,

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in our paradigm. But what I do is I come

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at this from the perspective, a holistic view. I believe

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that from Genesis to the final revelation of the Apocalypse,

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it's a holistic text. The text shows an amazing amount

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of continuity. And in fact, in some of your arguments

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where you talked about the dietary laws or things like this,

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actually Orthodoxy has a unique, a unique take on this

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that is not like Roman Catholicism or aspects of Evensism.

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So I would actually agree that when Jesus says in

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Matthew five that we are bound to all of the

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jocks and tittle of the Torah. In fact, I use

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this argument quite often. Now, how that plays out and

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what that means, we don't think is arbitrarily set up

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by independent higher critics. But in fact, as many of

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your opponents in your debate said, the historic Church itself.

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So it's a question again back to authority. When we

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look at authority and we say, well, that religion teaches X,

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y Z, and when I take their holy books out

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of the context of where they reside. So for example,

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for us, the Bible is not a text that operates

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abstractly like some kind of rule book per se. That's

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one aspect of the text but for us, the Bible

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is primarily a liturgical document, so it actually arises out

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of what would be read in the services of the church.

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So you're very focused on the early Church and how

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it relates to Judaism. This is also a big focus

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of mine as well. And what's interesting is that the

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early Church worship, which was in the synagogue, initially birthed

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the Gentile Church from the synagogue, and then as the

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Church spread throughout the Empire, there is all the marks

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of what we would expect from a church that adopts

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a temple and synagogal liturgical service that then goes into

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the gentile world. And the reason I say that is

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that this is a big part of what I missed

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in a lot of your debates was the misunderstanding of

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the relationship between the period of the first to third centuries.

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So you seem to have the perspective that maybe some

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Baptists and Seven day Adventists have, which is that there

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was this massive corruption of Christianity from the time of

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the Apostolic era, and Paul just you know, contrasted with

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Jesus and up to the third century in Nicea and

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maybe after Nicea. You know, it turned into some other

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kind of thing, but in actuality myself being somebody who

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went down this road, reading extensively for fourteen years the

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church fathers in Toto, not every church father, but I

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have read all of the post Apostolic fathers and most

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of the writings of the fathers for the first three centuries,

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and what I find is a complete continuity, just off

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the top of my head. For example, if we read

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justin Martyr, we find him looking at the Old Testament

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Theophanes as examples of predictions of the logos to come

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the Angel of the Lord. This is a big apologetic

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move that he uses against Tripho the Jew. If we

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look at Erineus in Against Heresies, Iraneus has a whole

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section after he deals with the Gnostics for the first

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three books, and again this is one eight. He has

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an extensive section where he talks about the continuity between

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the Old and New Testament, and he refutes Marcion somebody

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that although I'm not saying that you're Marcianite, I did

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hear you were referencing Ebionites and other heretical groups that

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were intended to show that that was somehow authentic Christianity.

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I don't think that's true, because most of our luminaries

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of the first three centuries were consistently opposed to those figures.

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So you're also correct that there were there was a

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development of the canon. But how that the fact that

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there's a development of the canon would be a problem

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for Christianity, I'm not sure. Because any religion that has

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millennia of time going into it, there's going to be

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some kind of notion of development. Right So, for example,

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perhaps it's true that we do not immediately see the

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totality of the Trinity within the Torah, but that doesn't

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mean that in the notion of progressive revelation that there

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won't be more and more and more revealed. For example,

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even within Judaism, there's the conception that obviously Jeremiah understood

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more than Abraham did. Right, So, just because there is

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a section of revelation at one period in time that's

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built on later as profits come, it doesn't mean that

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necessarily that the newer revelations are necessary should be pitted

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against the older or the original. So our presupposition is continuity.

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And although I'm sure we won't have time to get

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into the totality of that today, I do have a

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three hour talk where I went through the totality of

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where I see continuity between the only New Testaments. And

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I think that when we look at Paul and Jesus,

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we will consistently see not discontinuity, but in fact continuity.

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We will see the fact that Jesus in many cases

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appeals to the law and he says that it is binding,

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but he also makes statements later that qualify how that

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law will be kept. It is not what goes into

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the mouth of a man, and not what a man

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eats that defiles him in Mark, but what comes out

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of his heart. So the fact is Jesus denying the

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dietary laws. No, So how do we understand this? Well?

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For example, in our Orthodox study Bible, the notes in

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Leviticus are excellent because they explain in detail that the

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way that the ceremonial laws are kept now are in

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a spiritual sense. So that's my first eight minutes, and Paul,

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I will let you begin your eight minutes when you're ready.

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Speaker 2: Okay, can people see me by the way? Am I

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visible on the camera? It's invisible.

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Speaker 1: Let's make sure. Hold on, let's see what the chat's

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a little like it takes a little bit of.

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Speaker 2: Time to oh I am no, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay,

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it's just okay, that's cool. Thank you for that.

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Speaker 1: Jay.

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Speaker 2: There's quite a mixed bag of items you brought out there,

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each of which would take a PhD thesis to discuss

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earlier in themselves. So I'm just gonna scattergun a bit.

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Is my contention that Jesus was not a Trinitarian. It's

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my contention that Paul did not preach the trinity. The

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idea of the three in one, the God being three

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persons in one God, is completely absent from the Jewish scriptures.

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It's not there in Genesis. I would argue, it's not

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preached by any of the prophets of God, Isaiah, jer Am,

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I and my card holder, or none of them actually

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gives any hint. In fact, the opposite is the case.

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They constantly emphasize the oneness of God, that he is unique,

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that he is one, that he is the Lord, that

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he is the God, the Creator, as only he that

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should be worshiped. We don't get any sense of a

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three and one at all in the Jewish scriptures. We

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don't even get that sense in the New Testament. Although

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I know Christians, of which I used to be one of.

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I used to be a Christian apologist, believe it or not,

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used to do believe that there are seeds of the

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Trinity in the New but actually there are some anti

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seeds as well. There are the many passages of the

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New Testament which suggests very much the opposite. I'll give

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you a random one here. Here's Paul talking in one Corinthians,

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chapter eleven. He's talking about the status of Jesus visa

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the God, and I remember Jesus in this past. Sorry, Paul,

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in this passage is talking about the ascended Jesus, Jesus

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who is back in glory with God. So Philippians too

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doesn't really apply here. It's a very brief throwaway comment

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almost that Paul makes. I want you to understand. This

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is chapter eleven, verse three. I want you to understand

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that Christ is the head of every man, and the

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husband is the head of his wife, and God is

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the head of Christ. This is very important because even

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in his glorified state, when he's returned to God, he's

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being exalted, that he is still not God. That Jesus

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has a God, and there's no hint here of a trinity,

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of course, and there are numerous verses in the Synoptic Gospels,

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and even in John amazingly that one could bring up

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to give a more Islamic feel. See, the more you

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judaize Jesus, is my argument. The more you judaize Jesus,

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you put him in his first century context, the more

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Islamic he sounds. This is the great irony here that

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Islam is Jesus by Judaism. But what I mean by that,

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the concept of God in Islam, the concept of God

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and Judaism is the same. We have the same concept

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with God. God is the one God, He is the

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provide of the Creator, the sustainer of all things. He

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alone has the right to be worshiped and invoked, and

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so on. There's no three and one business there are

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at all in the Koran or in the Jewish script

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as I have said. And then many pastors in the

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Synoptic Gospels the earliest Jesus material we have which seemed

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to affirm that unitarian monotheistic understanding. For example, John, chapter ten,

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verse seventeen, A man comes to Jesus says, good teacher,

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what must I do to inherit eternal life, and Jesus

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says to him, why do you call me good? There

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is no one good but God alone, very turning away

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from seldom towards God. Only God has this attribute of goodness.

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And here is a humble Jew if you like, deflecting

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this flattery of goodness and say no, no goodness belongs even

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just to God alone. And Jesus, someone who has betrayed

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as a prophet. In Luke's Gospel, for example, he is

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portray as a prophet of God, which of course is

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exactly what Islam teaches. He is not portrayed as God incarnate.

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And in fact, in Matthew, Mark and Luke, if you

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look at Matthew and Luke's nativity narratives, Jesus sorry, the

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Son is created in the womb of Mary. And if

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you look at the Greek and top scholars like Raymond

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Brown and Jimmy Dunn and others Joseph Fitzmyer, two of

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those people, by the way, Catholic priests, one of whom

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I heard lecture at Oxford, you'll see that there is

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no hint at all of the pre existence of the

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Sun or pre existence of Jesus at all. In the

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nativity narratives and the Synoptic Gospels. Obviously there's no nativity

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narrative in Mark. We know that only with John. The

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last of the gospels to be written, which has the

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most exalted Christology, is Jesus, the pre existent son. And

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scholars have almost university throughout the world, you know Oxford, Cambridge,

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the Ivy League universities where you are, you know, Harvard, Yale, etc.

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That they have almost all of them have said that

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if we're looking to the historical Jesus, the Jesus who

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walked the streets of Judeo two thousand years ago, we're

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looking really at the synoptic portrait of Jesus as a prophet,

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as a messiah, as the son of Man. And John's

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Gospel or They'll last be written represents are heavily theologized,

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a heavily colored account of Jesus, where the author believes

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that he is the light of the world, so he

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puts those words in his mouth. The author believe Jesus

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the resurrection of the life, so he puts those words

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in Jesus' mouth. We're not really dealing with the historical

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Jesus at all, so much with the Fourth cost well.

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Yet that is where the meaty Christology lies with Jesus

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pre existence. But even in John interestingly, in chapter seventeen,

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verse three, Jesus says, this is eternal life. So this

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is eternal life, folks, that you believe that they believe

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in you, the only true God, and in Jesus Christ,

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whom you have sent. So this is clear Jesus distinguishes

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himself from God here. To believe in to get eternal

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life is to believe that you are the only true

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God and to believe in Jesus. Now that is an

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excellent summary of the Islamic creed when it comes to

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Jesus to believe in one God and to believe in

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his Messiah. We were Jews at time, that would be

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the Islamic creed. Now, of course, subsequent to that, Mohammed

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has come, who, unlike Jesus, was sent to all the world,

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and now we believe in Jesus and Muhammad. So I

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think scholarship is very much on the understanding that the

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historical Jesus did not think that he was Yahweh. That

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this is as a later development is evolved over years

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and centuries, and we see that instantiated in the Council,

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and I see of the Council of Caws and so on.

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But these are not the statements of Jesus. There are

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reflections of men that came many, many, many generations later,

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who interpreted what they thought was the truth about Jesus,

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but they got him wrong. I think the judgment of

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history is that Jesus was an apocalyptic prophet, and that

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is pretty much the consensus now of New Testament scholars,

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most of him are Christians, is that historical Jesus was

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an apocalyptic prophet, and that sits very comfortably with the

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chronic understanding of Jesus as a man, as a messiah,

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as a prophet of God.

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Speaker 1: That's it.

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Speaker 2: That's it, folks. Oh to you, I can't hear you.

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Do we have volume?

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Speaker 1: Okay, there's another two minutes if you want to keep

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going or do you?

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Speaker 2: Often enough? Over to us?

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Speaker 1: All right? Well, interesting, So I heard a lot of

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the things that I expected to hear. I think that

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the first thing I would point out is exactly what

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I elucidated in my initial statement was kind of what

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came to the fore, which is a question of pre

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subpositions and a question of authority. So I heard a

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lot of appeals to authority about standard everyday scholarship. But

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that assumes that the scholars like Raymond Brown, who by

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the way, is a liberal scholar, that because he is

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a liberal scholar, because he's a permanent scholar, that he's

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going to have some somehow more of an objective basis.

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But as you yourself pointed out when you harkened to

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in one of your bits, Thomas Kuhne, you know that

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there's not really objectivity when it comes to these big, paradigmatic,

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presubpositional questions of world views. There's no possibility of being

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completely neutral or unbiased. So everybody, even the prevalent, the

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predominant liberal scholars of our day, are in fact basing

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their assumptions, basing the research on their presubositions. And so

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when you come to the text, as you and these

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other scholars do, with the presupposition of unbelief, then of

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course you're going to see discontinuity. You're going to pit

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one text against the other. There's going to be an

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arbitrary selection of which texts are authentic versions of what

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Jesus or Paul taught, and then arbitrarily ad hoc over

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here Oh, within the next few chapters, scholar XYZ has

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told us that that section is invalid. And so, given

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the fact that none of us have access to the

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immediate presence of those texts being written, neither do you

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to the origin of the Quran itself. You don't have

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a direct access to that. We are both in the

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same position of accepting texts or rejecting texts on the

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basis of authority and on the basis of our presuppositions.

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So I'm sure more of that will come later. But

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what I wanted to say was just notice that I

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did point out what he would do. I think, and

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I tend to to see the same type of thing.

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I saw, an arbitrary selection of what texts do not

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allow for the dimnity of Christ and other text that

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maybe would be added later where where this is a

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later and accretion. But I've not yet heard what the

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basis is to know when and where and how these

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differences are present. How do you delineate between the authentic

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texts and the texts that are later appropriations. Now, the

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first thing he mentioned was taal Heed, which I do

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want to talk about if he's willing to talk about that,

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because we have a different conception of what simplicity or

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unity means in God. And in fact, we didn't just

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invent this. We believe that we got it from the

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Law and the prophets themselves. For example, when Moses talks

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about seeing the goodness of God, the question arises the attributes.

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Are the actions of God identical to the unity of God?

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And if they are, do they then meld into the

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unity of God? And do we lose a sense of

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a real distinction in God. This has been a in

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religion all the way back to the ancient Vedic text.

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You can look at the ancient Vedas and you'll see

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debates about the one and the many in the relationship

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to God. Our view is very unique in terms of

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how we view God. You could look at something like

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the number three as an analogy. I'm not equating the

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trinity to the number three, but I'm using it as analogy.

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If I were to draw the numeral three, it is

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a singular aspect, it is a unit of aspect, but

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there's also a triplicity to that. That's very true. So

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our definition, our understanding of what oneness and unity means

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is not derived from philosophic assumptions of Hellenism or Aristotle

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or any other philosophic speculation as to what number numerical

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unity or oneness in God must mean. And in fact,

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in our view, we don't set up a dialectic between

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the one and the many. So while we do see

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a distinction between the creator and the creature within God,

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if God reveals it to be so that He is

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in fact both one and three, we accept it on

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the basis of revealed authority. And when we asked the

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question of well, how could it be that God is

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simultaneously one and also multiple at the same time without

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destroying his unity, it goes into the trinitarian theology that

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has worked out. Now you said, but that's not in

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the Bible. Actually, it does derive from the text of scripture, because,

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for example, even in the history of Judaism, we can

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look at the debates between no Ahmanides and Rambound himself

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where he talks about my monodies, where he talks about

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is the theophanic manifestation of God in the Old Testament?

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Are those Theophanes, these angels of the Lord that appear

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And I have just a few that came to mind

436
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before this debate there's the examples in Genesis where the

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Angel Law appears and he's worshiped. There's the examples of

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Exodus three with the burning bush, which in Exodus twenty

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two and three is described of being the name of

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God put into this angel, and he is in fact worshiped,

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and Moses sees the burning bush, this theophany, as we

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call it, in these divine manifestations, within time and space,

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it's worshiped. Okay, Now there are many of these. The

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Angel of the Lord appears to Joshua early in the

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Book of Joshua. The Angel of the Lord appears to Samson,

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to his parents, to Manoah, and Manoah and his wife

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worshiped the Angel of the Lord, the logos that appears.

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This happens many many times in the Old Testament. It

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happens in Daniel right, when Daniel sees into the lions den,

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when Daniel sees in Daniel seven the ascension of Christ,

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and he comes before the Ancient of days. You said

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that there was no notion in the Old Testament of

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these distinctions between these what we call persons or hypostases,

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which we believe share one singular divine nature, but in

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fact many times over, especially in Daniel seven. When the

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sun ascends right, he's called the Son of Man, he

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ascends to the Ancient of days, and he's given his throne, dominion,

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and power, which was the ascension. It's not the end

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of the world, Daniel seven very clearly shows. It's it

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mirrors exactly what the early the first chapter of Acts

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shows when Jesus ascends with a cloud of witnesses. Daniel

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seven says, Jesus, the Son of Man, ascended with a

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cloud of witnesses to the Ancient of days, the Father,

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and was handed dominion, power, prone, et cetera. Because he

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came to unite to human nature and restore it. That

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was the whole purpose of the resurrection. Because we fell,

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our very nature was damaged, the whole universe was damaged.

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So in our view, the purpose of the incarnation was

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not a death to pay off God, paying off God,

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God paying off himself. That's not how it works. In fact,

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Orthodox theology is unique in that regard, and that we

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do not believe that there was some divine infinite satisfaction,

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like Anselm says, or like Luther and Calvin thought that

474
00:25:46,799 --> 00:25:49,000
you that the son had to pay off the Father,

475
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,000
the Son is eternally divine. That's why he is worshiped.

476
00:25:53,279 --> 00:25:56,160
Whether it's Judaism or Christianity. You can't and I'm sure

477
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,759
you would agree, you can't worship creatures. Right. So, when

478
00:26:00,759 --> 00:26:04,400
as I'm glad you mentioned the what you saw as

479
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:09,240
a lack of evidence of Jesus being a pre existent

480
00:26:09,319 --> 00:26:12,119
eternal son, Actually, if you read the Magnificat, and if

481
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,960
you read Luke one and two, what does Elizabeth say.

482
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,559
Elizabeth says, who am I? That the Mother of God

483
00:26:17,599 --> 00:26:20,079
should come to me? And that term is not a

484
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,200
lower l it is a lord. It is a divine term.

485
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,160
When Mary gives her magnificat, she says that the God

486
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,279
of the universe is to be praised because the fulfillment

487
00:26:31,319 --> 00:26:34,920
of all the promises to David, to Abraham, he has

488
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,240
fulfilled the promises to those fathers, those Covenant promises in

489
00:26:39,319 --> 00:26:43,480
me in this birth. So this promised Messiah all throughout

490
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:45,720
all these Old Testament texts which you seem to believe

491
00:26:45,799 --> 00:26:48,880
do not have anything to do with a pre existing

492
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,319
eternal son. It's interesting because Jesus says before Abraham was

493
00:26:52,519 --> 00:26:55,960
I am. Now I'd like to hear your response to that,

494
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:56,920
that was my eight minutes.

495
00:26:57,839 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 2: Oh hi Jay, that was can you get okay? My voice?

496
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,359
A huge amount of material there, and I feel a

497
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,079
bit overwhelmed. There's so much matter there. I do want

498
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:12,319
to stress that I mentioned to quote one from Mark

499
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,559
chapter ten, verse seventeen, where Jesus denies that he's God,

500
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,200
which you didn't address, and also the quote from Paul

501
00:27:19,319 --> 00:27:23,240
in One Corinthians where he clearly presents Jesus as having

502
00:27:23,279 --> 00:27:26,559
a God and this is the exalted Jesus, not the

503
00:27:26,599 --> 00:27:30,039
human Jesus in his Philippians two state, and you didn't

504
00:27:30,039 --> 00:27:30,960
address that either.

505
00:27:31,279 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 1: I think who wasn't it? I ran out of time,

506
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:35,039
of course.

507
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 2: But these need to be addressed rather than just brushed

508
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,599
aside and rushing off Daniel's second as if Dnel seven

509
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,640
somehow trump's the actual words alleged words of Jesus and Paul.

510
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,880
So you talk, you emphasize again they game by the

511
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,920
arbitrrianess of scholarship, and I think this is a great travesty.

512
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,279
Both Raymond Professor Raymond Brown and Joseph Fitzmeyer, who were

513
00:27:55,279 --> 00:27:58,519
both Roman Catholic priests. They both believed in the doctrine

514
00:27:58,519 --> 00:28:01,039
of the Trinity as you do. They both believe Jesus

515
00:28:01,079 --> 00:28:02,680
rose them are dead. They both believe in the history.

516
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,599
You can label them as liberals, which of course is

517
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,359
what sectarian Christians do. They just dismissed them as if

518
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:11,839
this has a magic wand and you know it brushes

519
00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:14,960
them aside. But these are seen as incredibly serious scholars

520
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,640
and the greatest scholars of the twentieth century, and they

521
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,359
have if you actually read their stuff, it has some

522
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,440
immensely interesting things to say. So I'm quoting Trinitarian Christians

523
00:28:25,079 --> 00:28:27,720
and not unbelievers. You said there were unbelievers, and they're

524
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,960
certainly not by my book, But that's another subject to

525
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:31,400
If you want to tack fear them, as we say

526
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,319
in Islam, that's up to you. But coming back to

527
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,400
these passengers, the early, the earliest Jesus material we have

528
00:28:38,559 --> 00:28:43,240
according to responsible biblical scholarship, which is not unbelieving, it's

529
00:28:43,279 --> 00:28:47,319
not arbitrary, if you When I studied this at university

530
00:28:47,359 --> 00:28:50,000
as part of my degree, and I read the New

531
00:28:50,039 --> 00:28:53,559
Testament in Greek, that there were some very reasonable and

532
00:28:53,839 --> 00:28:59,920
sophisticated methodologies trying to understand the exegesis of the texts.

533
00:29:00,319 --> 00:29:02,359
And I'm interally grateful for having learned a great deal

534
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,240
about the Bible. And that applies in the Old Testament.

535
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,400
If you look at the earliest Gospels, which is commonly

536
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,240
spoke thought to be Mark, actually we see a quite

537
00:29:11,319 --> 00:29:16,759
different portraits of Jesus, different teaching, different style, different Christology

538
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,839
than we do, say at the very last gospel written

539
00:29:19,839 --> 00:29:23,559
that of John. And the consensus. And you can disagree

540
00:29:23,599 --> 00:29:26,319
with the consensus. I'm not saying it's infallible. The consensus

541
00:29:26,359 --> 00:29:29,079
is that Matthew and Luke used Mark in the writing

542
00:29:29,119 --> 00:29:31,200
of their own gospels. And I've looked at the evidence

543
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,559
for this argument. I find it persuasive. At the level

544
00:29:33,599 --> 00:29:36,359
of Greek. You have great chunks of gospels which are

545
00:29:36,359 --> 00:29:40,000
identically worded in Greek, which suggests that someone is coppying

546
00:29:40,039 --> 00:29:42,000
from someone else, unless you believe in this kind of

547
00:29:42,079 --> 00:29:46,240
miraculous you know, great chunks of even incidental narratives are

548
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,200
identically worded. So the idea is there is a literary

549
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,400
dependency between the gospels. It's called the synoptic problem. And

550
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,039
the solution that's most popular, although it's you know, could

551
00:29:55,039 --> 00:29:58,799
be wrong, is that Matthew used Mark. And what we

552
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:05,079
notice then on That assumption is that statements that the

553
00:30:05,119 --> 00:30:08,759
way Matthew has changed Mark because Matthew makes slight alterations

554
00:30:08,759 --> 00:30:12,400
and editorial changes, statements that might imply a lack of

555
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,799
ability or authority on Jesus' part are modified. For example,

556
00:30:16,839 --> 00:30:21,240
Matthew thirteen fifty eight with Mark six ' five references

557
00:30:21,279 --> 00:30:26,000
to Jesus exhibiting human emotions are simply dropped. They're simply omitted.

558
00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:30,079
For example, pity in Marked one forty one. Anger is

559
00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:33,680
omitted Mark five to three, sadness Mark three five has emitted,

560
00:30:34,319 --> 00:30:38,400
Indignation ten fourteen is omitted. Stories that might seem to

561
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,960
portray Jesus as a magician are emitted. In Mark seven

562
00:30:42,119 --> 00:30:47,240
thirty one is omitted. Also, the disciples, who are given

563
00:30:47,279 --> 00:30:49,079
quite hard time in Mark they are shown to be

564
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,519
people of little faith or no faith, actually become almost

565
00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:56,000
model disciples in Matthew's possible he spruces them up. It's

566
00:30:56,039 --> 00:30:59,160
what we call in England the dodgy dossier about the

567
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,079
Iraq War. These documents have been sexed up quite a bit.

568
00:31:02,279 --> 00:31:05,119
They've been used to elevate the status of the disciples.

569
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,079
Jesus becomes more of a grand figure. His christology is exalted.

570
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,079
And you see that part excellence in the Fourth Gospel,

571
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,680
where Jesus says things and does things which no other

572
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,680
gospel has ever recorded him saying these I am statements.

573
00:31:17,799 --> 00:31:20,799
If Jesus went around Galilee and Judea whatever saying I

574
00:31:20,839 --> 00:31:22,880
am the Light of the world, I am the resurrection

575
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,400
of the life, and so on. How Come Dluke, for example,

576
00:31:26,599 --> 00:31:28,599
who went, who carefully examined all these things in the

577
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,680
beginning he claims, never recalls a single example. How Come

578
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,039
Matthew ignores it. How Come Mark never knows anything about it?

579
00:31:35,119 --> 00:31:38,000
How Come nowhere else in the Acts, for example, no

580
00:31:38,079 --> 00:31:40,480
one ever recalled Paul whenever it calls Jesus speaking like this.

581
00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:43,519
So this is seen by virtue all scholars, even conservative

582
00:31:43,559 --> 00:31:45,680
ones like Richard Balcombe. I know how familiar you are

583
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,279
a biblical scholarship, But in terms of new settlement scholarship,

584
00:31:48,319 --> 00:31:51,039
Richard Borkam's of a conservative evangelical figure professor here in Britain,

585
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,079
says that these terms, the im statements, are put on

586
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,400
the lips of Jesus. That's their manner of speaking. It's

587
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,839
not my invention. Quickly moving on to the Old Testament,

588
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,559
Daniel seven if you look at it in context, the

589
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,039
Son of Man actually refers to Israel. It actually explicitly

590
00:32:07,079 --> 00:32:09,440
says that. Later on the same chapter. This is a

591
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,200
figure of speech, how Israel goes to the Ancient of days?

592
00:32:13,279 --> 00:32:15,640
Ancient of days? Is God not the son of the

593
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,759
Son of Man. It actually says in that passage the

594
00:32:17,759 --> 00:32:20,960
son of Man refers to the saints of the most High,

595
00:32:21,119 --> 00:32:24,240
quote unquote, which is Israel. So is nothing to do

596
00:32:24,319 --> 00:32:28,000
with Jesus at all. Lastly, at this point, nowhere in

597
00:32:28,119 --> 00:32:32,079
the Jewish Bible is it ever prophesied that the Messiah

598
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,799
would die for people's sins. Now Paul in one in

599
00:32:36,839 --> 00:32:39,480
one Corinthians fifteen, verse three says about the gospel he

600
00:32:39,519 --> 00:32:42,599
has received that according to the scriptures, the son of

601
00:32:42,759 --> 00:32:45,519
the Messiah would die and be buried for three days,

602
00:32:45,519 --> 00:32:47,880
and on a third day he'd rise again. In accordance

603
00:32:48,079 --> 00:32:51,079
with the scriptures, I would argue that, actually, nowhere in

604
00:32:51,079 --> 00:32:54,119
the Jewish scriptures has ever say that the Messiah was

605
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,960
not supposed to die for people sins. He was supposed

606
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,920
to be triumphant over people's sins. Nowhere in the juw

607
00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:03,039
scriptures does it ever predict that God would become a man.

608
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,240
Never says that that he would become God, would become

609
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,759
the Messiah, that God would die for people's sins, that

610
00:33:08,799 --> 00:33:12,079
God would raise just doesn't say it anywhere. Now I'm

611
00:33:12,079 --> 00:33:15,640
aware of Christian attempts to twist the scriptures and read

612
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,319
into them. Do ester Jesus rather I see Jesus as

613
00:33:19,359 --> 00:33:23,160
we say, see Jesus everywhere, rather than exe Jesus. Ex

614
00:33:23,319 --> 00:33:26,200
Jesus is. Everyone accepts the ex Jesus is a responsible

615
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:27,759
way to read the Bible. Were looking for what the

616
00:33:27,799 --> 00:33:30,279
author is intender to mean, rather than what we like

617
00:33:30,359 --> 00:33:33,279
them to say. And we don't read our own theology

618
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,839
or our own religion into the Bible. But Christians read

619
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,079
it into the Bible all over the place, and they

620
00:33:38,119 --> 00:33:41,799
see Jesus where the Jews have never seen Jesus. It's

621
00:33:41,839 --> 00:33:43,839
important that nowhere in the Bible does that say the

622
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,640
Messiah would die for anyone's sins and atonement for sins.

623
00:33:46,759 --> 00:33:49,880
This is a Christian idea. Jesus didn't preach it. Jesus

624
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,240
said people's sins are freely forgiven. Look at Luke's Gospel,

625
00:33:53,359 --> 00:33:56,160
look at the Sermon on the Mount. Freely forgiveness of

626
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,119
sins is available are simply repenting to God in Heaven

627
00:33:59,359 --> 00:34:03,200
and Jesus cause people to a renewal spirituary, renewed following

628
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,079
of God in the Kingdom of God, obeying the Torah

629
00:34:06,079 --> 00:34:08,679
which Christians have abandoned. All the Christians I know, most

630
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,760
Christian eat pork. Jesus said you mustn't eat pork in me.

631
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,079
That very clear on several occasions. So what we're dealing

632
00:34:15,079 --> 00:34:18,000
with here, we're dealing of the religion about Jesus. Christianity

633
00:34:18,079 --> 00:34:22,840
is a religion about Jesus. Islam actually caused people back

634
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,480
to the religion of Jesus, and that's a crucial distinction.

635
00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:30,880
Islam is a call back to people not to worship Jesus,

636
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,920
but to follow the religion of Jesus. And there's a

637
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,599
wonderful hadith of the prophet Mohammed. Mohammad piece upon him

638
00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:41,880
said once said to people, do not exaggerate in praising me,

639
00:34:42,039 --> 00:34:45,960
as the Christians have exaggerated in praising Jesus, son of Mary.

640
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,360
For I am only a servant, So say he is

641
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,880
the servant of Allah and his messenger. That's a how

642
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,199
do you think Albakhari, So Mohammad taught us that to

643
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,360
be very aware not to do to him what Christians

644
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,920
have done to g Jesus. They made him into a deity.

645
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,679
And the Colney has some very fun things to fare

646
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:05,440
about one.

647
00:35:05,639 --> 00:35:12,159
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, all right, okay, well I'll start my section.

648
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,119
So the first thing that I says that the reason

649
00:35:15,159 --> 00:35:17,280
that I didn't address those texts was not trying to

650
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,840
avoid them, but rather I was working through my list

651
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,119
of things I wrote down as you were talking. So

652
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,559
about the text where Christ says that he still has

653
00:35:24,559 --> 00:35:27,000
a God. It may be a surprise to you, maybe

654
00:35:27,039 --> 00:35:29,199
I think you came from a Roman Catholic background, but

655
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,559
in Orthodox theology, we are very insistent on the fact

656
00:35:32,599 --> 00:35:35,280
that the Father is the source and fountain of the Godhead,

657
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,480
and that will always be the case, and in fact,

658
00:35:37,519 --> 00:35:40,920
that's consistent in the text where Jesus says that he

659
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,280
came to do the will of the Father, and then

660
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,239
later on when Paul writes and says that Christ is

661
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,480
that the Father is the head of Christ, just as

662
00:35:49,519 --> 00:35:51,559
the man is the head of the wife. It's the

663
00:35:51,599 --> 00:35:54,639
same application the same principle. When Jesus says that none

664
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,559
is good but God, and namely the Father, he also

665
00:35:57,599 --> 00:36:00,719
in other places refers to himself as good. He tells

666
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,039
the woman and the well that he is the one

667
00:36:03,039 --> 00:36:05,599
who was to come. She says, sir, who is this

668
00:36:05,679 --> 00:36:07,880
Messiah that's to come? Who is this one who's going

669
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,320
to bring this water of living waters flowing out of him?

670
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,760
And he says, I am he. You are speaking to him. Now,

671
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,039
you did the exact same thing that I said you

672
00:36:18,079 --> 00:36:21,199
would do, which was that your ultimate source of authority

673
00:36:21,199 --> 00:36:23,719
and appealed to. What you ultimately appealed to was the

674
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:29,199
arbitrary scholars that you chose. So your rationale is not

675
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,079
based on the internal consistency of the text, but on

676
00:36:33,119 --> 00:36:37,480
the presupposition of unbelief appealing to authority. So, in other words,

677
00:36:37,519 --> 00:36:39,760
both of us are appealing to authority. Right, you said

678
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,840
that I was reading I was doing Ia Jesus by

679
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,440
reading into the text what I wanted to see there.

680
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,079
But in fact, every human being, as I just said,

681
00:36:48,159 --> 00:36:50,199
is going to in some way read their worldview and

682
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,079
their presubpositions oft of the text. You confirmed that by

683
00:36:53,079 --> 00:36:55,239
the fact that you relied on Raymond Brown and the

684
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,360
fact that you went to whatever school and you studied

685
00:36:58,079 --> 00:37:01,840
biblical scholarship. Yeah, but that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter

686
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:05,400
if the majority of biblical scholarship in our day is unbelieving,

687
00:37:05,679 --> 00:37:07,480
that's not going to be an argument. That's not going

688
00:37:07,519 --> 00:37:09,559
to be a source by which you can prove any

689
00:37:09,599 --> 00:37:12,000
kind of argument you can bring that forth to to

690
00:37:12,639 --> 00:37:15,760
as a way to kind of have an attestation, you know,

691
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,239
I might cite Josephus or something like this as a

692
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,840
as a confirmation of something that I would argue, but

693
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,000
to appeal to Raymond Brown, or to appeal to any

694
00:37:25,039 --> 00:37:29,199
of the numerous higher critical schools, again going all the

695
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,400
way back to Julius Vallhausen, the founder of modern higher criticism.

696
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,679
Isn't it interesting that the documentary hypothesis was born out

697
00:37:35,679 --> 00:37:39,559
of and admitted desire to destroy the texts. So you're

698
00:37:39,599 --> 00:37:44,679
appealing to the textual tradition of higher criticism, which was intented.

699
00:37:45,039 --> 00:37:48,440
Its whole intention was to destroy not the New Testament,

700
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,599
but Moses, the Torah, the very thing that you at

701
00:37:52,639 --> 00:37:56,480
times think is true. So it's completely arbitrary when you

702
00:37:56,519 --> 00:37:59,360
say that you want to go back to reconstruct the

703
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,199
original religion of Jesus. You don't know what that is

704
00:38:03,559 --> 00:38:06,079
because it's completely arbitrary. It's ad hoc. And you can

705
00:38:06,159 --> 00:38:09,480
appeal to any manner of unbelieving scholars all day, but

706
00:38:09,519 --> 00:38:12,440
all that does is show the inadequacy of your position.

707
00:38:12,599 --> 00:38:14,360
Because if I were to come out here and just

708
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,280
start appealing to the top Islamic scholars and this liberal scholar,

709
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,119
and that is Karen Armstrong or any scholar who has

710
00:38:22,159 --> 00:38:25,800
a liberal perspective, you would immediately say that that's probably

711
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,000
not an authentic reading of Islam. Or if we were

712
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,800
to appeal to the different divisions. So there's multiple fallacies

713
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,119
at work in the arguments that you're making. Again, only

714
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:37,920
Orthodoxy has the strict view that the Father is the

715
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,800
source and fount of Godhead, who communicates that deity through

716
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,320
the Son to the Spirit. So the triune God is

717
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,880
not something that we invented. Again, I give you a

718
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,320
list of Theophanes. I gave you a list of things

719
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,280
in the Old Testament where the Angel of the Lord,

720
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:57,480
which angel just means a messenger, is literally worshiped. Now again, Judaism, Christianity,

721
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:02,119
we all agree that we cannot worship creatures. Theophanes are worshiped,

722
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,480
and they're not identical to the Father. As Exodus three

723
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,320
and twenty two twenty three makes clear with the Angel

724
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,920
of the Lord God says I will put my name

725
00:39:11,679 --> 00:39:17,880
Yahweh into that angel. Right, he has that full divine authority,

726
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,920
and he goes before in the fire and the cloud

727
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,159
in the Exodus to cleanse the Promised Land. So guess

728
00:39:23,199 --> 00:39:26,360
what it was, Jesus the logos that cleansed the Promised Land.

729
00:39:26,599 --> 00:39:29,320
Because all throughout the New Testament it's made consistently and

730
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:31,760
abundantly clear. Now you can pick out certain texts where

731
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,840
you think that, well, it's not Jesus there, because Jesus

732
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,239
says that he submits to the Father. That's just assuming

733
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:39,719
that the Trinity isn't true. So I could appeal to

734
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,400
all kinds of texts and find all kinds of things that,

735
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,800
if I don't have a holistic perspective of the Bible,

736
00:39:45,559 --> 00:39:49,320
I think might grant me or give me a justification.

737
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,159
But this has already been subtled and dealt with. I mean,

738
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,519
all you're giving is kind of classical Aryan arguments that

739
00:39:55,639 --> 00:40:00,440
Saint Athanasius, Saint Basil others dealt with extensively. Obviously, I

740
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,679
can't go into all that in eight minutes. But when

741
00:40:02,679 --> 00:40:05,280
we say that there's one good, He is God. That

742
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,159
doesn't mean that doesn't exclude the possibility they're also being

743
00:40:09,159 --> 00:40:12,920
a multiplicity in God. Because guess what, Although you may

744
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,400
think that you have a perfectly unitive view of God,

745
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,960
you actually don't because the same problems that occur in

746
00:40:21,159 --> 00:40:23,599
what you perceive us to have in terms of multiplicity,

747
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,280
you have those same problems. I know you think you don't,

748
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,480
But in fact, if you believe that the actions of

749
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,119
God in creating the world are identical to the unity

750
00:40:33,199 --> 00:40:35,559
or the essence of God, or God's nature, whatever you

751
00:40:35,599 --> 00:40:38,119
want to call it, whatever terms you guys use, then

752
00:40:38,119 --> 00:40:41,360
you have to also affirm that that action is just

753
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,519
as eternal as the essence. It's synonymous as the divine essence.

754
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,840
And this is what Saint Athanasius refuted the Arians on

755
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,480
the basis of He says that when you guys identify

756
00:40:50,599 --> 00:40:54,599
God's will with the divine essence, which is exactly what

757
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,159
you do in your theology, because you don't have any

758
00:40:58,199 --> 00:41:00,639
distinctions in God, because you have the priests position, that

759
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,280
distinction must be in composition or division, and it must

760
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:08,440
therefore mean a denial of the true unity of God. Okay, well,

761
00:41:08,519 --> 00:41:13,199
let's go down that road. If there is no allowance

762
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,719
for any sense of multiplicity in the divine, then not

763
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,719
only does the act of creation become an eternal action,

764
00:41:20,079 --> 00:41:22,159
and creation that becomes just as eternal as God. You

765
00:41:22,199 --> 00:41:24,480
have pantheism. You could also flip it on the other

766
00:41:24,519 --> 00:41:27,280
side and say, well, then God will to create out

767
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,119
of his essence, and he has no relationship to the

768
00:41:30,159 --> 00:41:32,920
created order because he's nothing like the created order. But

769
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,280
you see the very thing that we say about the

770
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,960
incarnation when it comes to Jesus and how he can

771
00:41:38,039 --> 00:41:41,239
become incarnate and speak to us and move and operate

772
00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:43,199
in this world in the sense of being the second

773
00:41:43,199 --> 00:41:46,480
person that God had taken on impersonal human nature. You

774
00:41:46,599 --> 00:41:50,840
have that same problem with relating this perfectly unified deity

775
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,519
to the created here and now you see, how does

776
00:41:54,599 --> 00:42:03,199
the Quran perfectly exemplify this eternal, abstract beyond deity that

777
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:07,360
does not in any way have created forms, likenesses, or analogies.

778
00:42:07,679 --> 00:42:09,760
How does he do that? How does how can there

779
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,000
be a Quran that really tells us truths about God

780
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:16,880
if you do not allow for any distinctions or any

781
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:22,199
conceptual analogies, Because guess what conceptual analogies or written analogies

782
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,880
are no different than iconographic depictions. So it doesn't matter

783
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,320
whether it's an icon on a wall that says the

784
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:35,119
name Allah, or whether it's a book that says the

785
00:42:35,199 --> 00:42:38,519
name Allah and the supposed words of Allah, or whether

786
00:42:38,599 --> 00:42:41,599
in our view, it's an iconographic representation of Christ, an

787
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,239
icon of Christ, or whether it's Christ and his human

788
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,079
nature walking around and talking. All of these are the

789
00:42:47,119 --> 00:42:51,280
exact same issue, and you haven't actually escaped escaped this

790
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,599
issue by simply saying that, well, God is perfectly unitive

791
00:42:55,079 --> 00:42:57,800
in a radical way, and you guys are heretics because

792
00:42:58,159 --> 00:43:01,039
you have the notion of multiplicitis in the godhead. I

793
00:43:01,079 --> 00:43:05,119
would just again emphasize if God is absolutely identical to all,

794
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:08,960
to his essence in every way, in every sense, then

795
00:43:09,159 --> 00:43:11,840
creation is an eternal action, and you actually be believe

796
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:12,760
creation is eternal.

797
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 2: Okay, Jay, thank you for all that. There's a great

798
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,960
deal there. I doubt I can't in eight minutes response

799
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,960
possibly responded in adequate detail to many of these issues.

800
00:43:24,599 --> 00:43:26,639
Patty might be helpful just to say what the Kranz

801
00:43:26,679 --> 00:43:30,719
says about God in a very famous throughout eclus Iclus,

802
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,159
which is the one hundred and twelfth sah. It's very brief,

803
00:43:33,639 --> 00:43:35,800
and I'm reading from Mohammad Asseid's translation. In the Name

804
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:39,639
of God, the most Gracious, the dispenser of grace, say

805
00:43:40,079 --> 00:43:44,480
this is talk addressing Mohammad. Say, he is the one God, God,

806
00:43:44,639 --> 00:43:49,440
the eternal, the uncaused cause of all that exists. He

807
00:43:49,519 --> 00:43:53,159
begets not and neither is he begotten, and there is

808
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,719
nothing that could be compared with him. Now this is

809
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:02,559
extraordinarily condensed, concise express of a theology. Here he's eternal,

810
00:44:02,599 --> 00:44:05,000
he's the uncaused cause of all that exists. In other words,

811
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,760
to use our language as in philosophers, he possesses a saiety.

812
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:10,679
He doesn't forget, nor that is, he begotness like an

813
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:14,480
animal that gives birth to offspring. And there's nothing that

814
00:44:14,599 --> 00:44:19,079
can be compared with him. He is unique, he's unlike

815
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,719
his creation. This is the Islamic conception of God. And

816
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:27,000
I don't need to stress how different that is to

817
00:44:27,079 --> 00:44:31,679
some aspects of Christian theology. This cannot describe Jesus. The

818
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:35,719
Jesus we see in the Gospels is not eternal. He

819
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,880
dies on the cross, so he's not immortal. Even though

820
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,239
Paul says in one Timothy six, that God is immortal,

821
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:45,800
he dies, Jesus, there's nothing could be compared with him,

822
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,280
or obviously there is. He's a human being, but he

823
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,199
doesn't exhibit divine attributes. For example, he doesn't know things.

824
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,519
In Matthew thirteen thirty two about the date of the end,

825
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,599
it says that neither the Sun nor the angels, but

826
00:44:59,679 --> 00:45:02,960
only the Father knows the date of the end. So

827
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:05,400
the son doesn't know. Even the Holy Spirit doesn't get

828
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,280
a look in on that. Only God the Father knows,

829
00:45:09,079 --> 00:45:12,360
So he doesn't know things. He dies, he's not almighty,

830
00:45:12,519 --> 00:45:15,599
he gets tired, and so on. So you get this

831
00:45:15,679 --> 00:45:20,159
kind of incoherent understanding of incarnation. On the one hand,

832
00:45:20,199 --> 00:45:23,320
he is all powerful, he's got On the other hand,

833
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,199
he's weak. On the one hand, he is all knowing, omniscient.

834
00:45:26,519 --> 00:45:28,760
On the other hand, he doesn't know stuff. On the

835
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,039
one hand is immortal and the other you get You

836
00:45:31,039 --> 00:45:34,159
get these all in the one person. It's not two persons,

837
00:45:34,159 --> 00:45:37,480
only one person of Jesus. And that this is incoherent.

838
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:40,000
Does he die or doesn't he? Well, yes and no.

839
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:42,280
Does he know stuff or not? Well, yes and no.

840
00:45:42,519 --> 00:45:46,440
It doesn't make any coherence. The coherence of Jesus as

841
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:51,440
a being is there inherent incoherences. It's contradictory, it makes

842
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:56,159
no sense, both philosophically and logically. But also the earl,

843
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,320
the earliest Church, the Paths of Jesus, didn't believe Jesus

844
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:00,960
was God at all. And in fact, if you look

845
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:02,599
at the Book of Acts and you look at Peter's

846
00:46:02,679 --> 00:46:05,119
very first sermon, remember this is after the coming of

847
00:46:05,119 --> 00:46:07,880
the Holy Spirit, after the ascension of Jesus. So here

848
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,599
now we have Paul understanding who Jesus is, and he

849
00:46:10,599 --> 00:46:13,800
says in verse twenty two to the Israelites, you, that Israelites,

850
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,119
listen to what I have to say to you. Jesus

851
00:46:16,119 --> 00:46:19,719
of Nazareth was a man attested to you by God,

852
00:46:20,119 --> 00:46:23,159
with deeds of power, wonders and signs that God did

853
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:26,960
through him among you, as you yourselves know. So he

854
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,519
wasn't God. He was a man attested by God. Peter's

855
00:46:30,559 --> 00:46:33,280
not preaching in the incarnation. He's not preaching the trinities,

856
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:35,840
not preaching the divinity of Jesus. And at the very

857
00:46:36,039 --> 00:46:38,760
end of this sermon, according to Acts in verse thirty six,

858
00:46:39,039 --> 00:46:43,039
therefore Peter sammarizes, let the entire house of Israel know

859
00:46:43,199 --> 00:46:48,119
with certainty that God has made him both Lord and Messiah.

860
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,199
So Jesus wasn't Lord, he wasn't the Messiah. God, who

861
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,199
is a separate being from Jesus, made him so. And

862
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,079
this is the this is the beginning of acts. And

863
00:46:57,199 --> 00:46:59,960
I mentioned and Paul saying that Jesus has a God

864
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,719
them a number of other passages in Paul that say

865
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,480
the same thing. They clearly beginning of most of pause letters.

866
00:47:05,519 --> 00:47:07,280
By the way, he talks about the God and Father

867
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,519
of our Lord, Jesus Christ. So Jesus has a God.

868
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,079
That that's this standard interaction. He's always telling you, don't

869
00:47:13,079 --> 00:47:15,280
believe in the trinity, don't believe in Of course he's

870
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:17,760
not anachronistically, he doesn't believe you haven't heard of it

871
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,239
a trinity. But I come back to this point. It's

872
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:23,559
important to me that if you look at the earliest

873
00:47:23,599 --> 00:47:27,239
Jewish tradition in Matthew, Mark and Luke, and what Jesus

874
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:30,800
actually says and done, he's not preaching himself. He's not

875
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,440
going around saying, hey, believe in me, I'm God. He's

876
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,480
actually preaching about the Kingdom of God. He's preaching about

877
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,039
God and his kingdom, which is a special way connected

878
00:47:39,039 --> 00:47:42,199
to his own ministry. But he's not proclaiming himself as divine.

879
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:45,719
He's portrayed as someone who prays to God, who says

880
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:49,079
on the cross according to Mark and Matthew, my God,

881
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,639
my God, why have you abandoned me? So he feels

882
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:55,760
abandoned by God according to the Early Gospels, which is

883
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,519
a bit peculiar if your God. He's portrayed as someone

884
00:47:58,519 --> 00:48:01,079
who dies, which is a bit peculiar, impossible if this

885
00:48:01,119 --> 00:48:03,880
person is God. But look what happens in the religions

886
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:08,159
that will call themselves Christians today. They proclaim Jesus the

887
00:48:08,199 --> 00:48:11,960
proclaimer has become the proclaimed, the one who preached God

888
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,880
is become the one himself who is identified as God.

889
00:48:16,199 --> 00:48:20,519
And this fundamental inversion is what Islam has come in

890
00:48:20,559 --> 00:48:23,960
part to rectify and to reform and calling Christians back

891
00:48:24,199 --> 00:48:27,119
to the worship of the One True God. And even

892
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:31,039
in John's Gospel, which has this fictionalized account according to

893
00:48:31,119 --> 00:48:33,320
virtually all scholars. And don't throw the liberal thing at me.

894
00:48:33,639 --> 00:48:37,280
Conservative scholars say the same thing, and I can reference

895
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:38,920
their work. So I'm afraid you have no way to

896
00:48:39,039 --> 00:48:42,320
escape unless you go to fundamentalist seminaries in the Deep

897
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,079
South or something in the major institutions of learning. This

898
00:48:46,159 --> 00:48:49,800
is pretty much the standard view that John as a theologized,

899
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:55,519
fictionalized account. But even there, Jesus says to Mary Magdalen,

900
00:48:55,599 --> 00:48:58,039
do not touch me, for I am returning to your

901
00:48:58,119 --> 00:49:03,079
father and my father, to your God and my God. Jesus,

902
00:49:03,639 --> 00:49:07,280
even in his resurrected state, freely confesses that he has

903
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:11,079
a God which he shares with his disciples, my God

904
00:49:11,119 --> 00:49:13,760
and your God, your Father and my Father. He does

905
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,760
not say, ah, now you understand the Trinity, and I

906
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:18,639
am God as well, and I am divine. No, no, no,

907
00:49:18,679 --> 00:49:21,760
He says that he has a God. In Islam, there

908
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,320
is only one God, and he doesn't consist of three

909
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,960
of three persons. Coming back to the Old Testament, I

910
00:49:28,039 --> 00:49:30,559
do challenge you, Jay, to show me a single passage

911
00:49:30,599 --> 00:49:34,960
anywhere in the Jewish scriptures that clearly states the trinity.

912
00:49:35,519 --> 00:49:38,119
You see, if God was trinity all along, and he

913
00:49:38,199 --> 00:49:40,440
was communicating the truth about God as he was in

914
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,239
great detail through the prophets. Say in Isaiah, the whole

915
00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:48,199
chapter four chapters forty three sixty six, huge monotheistic discourse

916
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:51,599
about the nature of God. Not once, not once, does

917
00:49:51,639 --> 00:49:55,239
Isah give any hint of this three and one deity.

918
00:49:55,599 --> 00:49:59,000
There's no three and one deity in Isaiah would if

919
00:49:59,039 --> 00:50:02,119
God wanted to communicate with his beloved treasured people, he

920
00:50:02,159 --> 00:50:04,199
would surely tell them the truth about who he was.

921
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,320
He could have done so he did in Christian theology apparently,

922
00:50:07,519 --> 00:50:10,239
but he didn't. No way in the Jewish scriptures is

923
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,199
there are three and one God ever mentioned. All you

924
00:50:13,199 --> 00:50:17,880
can do is points are very obscure. Passengers, passages and Genesis,

925
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:19,679
and you talk about the Angel of the Lord, we

926
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,639
talk about God. This is true. This is a feature

927
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,519
of these texts where the Angel of the Lord oscillates

928
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,000
between on the one hand, being known as the Angel Lord,

929
00:50:28,039 --> 00:50:31,719
then he oscillates to being identified with God. And this

930
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,599
is a peculiar feature. But Jesus is not an angel.

931
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:38,000
Nowhere does Christians jaw as I think believe Jehovah's witnesses

932
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,039
believe Jesus was archangel Megan. But talking about Orthodotes, Christians

933
00:50:41,039 --> 00:50:43,880
and Catholics and Evangelicals, no where do they believe Jesus

934
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,760
was an angel. And this feature of oscillation between Angel

935
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:49,840
of God and identified with God is peculiar, but it

936
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,880
doesn't tell us about a trinity. It doesn't say Father, son,

937
00:50:53,039 --> 00:50:55,800
and Holy Spirit. That's what I'm looking for. Rather than

938
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,639
these very ambiguous passages. If you look at the very

939
00:50:58,639 --> 00:51:01,760
clear passages about who God is, his nature, who he

940
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,719
is relation to humankind. Look to Isaiah chapter forty onwards,

941
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,440
look to the other Great monarchy. Nowhere is there any

942
00:51:08,519 --> 00:51:10,559
hint of a trinity, And in fact it's not there.

943
00:51:10,599 --> 00:51:13,079
In the New Testament. Peter says that Jesus was just

944
00:51:13,159 --> 00:51:16,559
a man accredited by God, and Paul says, at the

945
00:51:16,679 --> 00:51:18,840
beginning of nearly all of his letters, in the name

946
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:22,599
of you know God, the Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ,

947
00:51:22,639 --> 00:51:26,159
the God and Father God of Jesus. So he is

948
00:51:26,199 --> 00:51:28,719
not saying he is God either. This is a later

949
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,880
doctrine Christian. The earliest Jews were not Christians. The earliest

950
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:36,199
follows of Jesus, I should say, were not Christians. This

951
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,360
is an important historical point to make. They were Jews.

952
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,440
They were Jews who were following the Jewish clan, who

953
00:51:42,679 --> 00:51:46,400
believed from the bed anyway, end of Okay, would you

954
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,079
mind it if I've just got some more water, because

955
00:51:48,119 --> 00:51:48,920
I've run out.

956
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,639
Speaker 1: I'll remind the chat too that we will be taking questions.

957
00:51:53,639 --> 00:51:55,559
If you guys want to send in some super chats

958
00:51:55,559 --> 00:51:58,800
when we finish our exchanges, you're welcome to do that.

959
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:03,760
I'm not going to be interacting with the questions in

960
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:07,840
the chats, so I'm kind of loosely moderating here. So again,

961
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:12,599
let's keep our discourse as civil as possible while he

962
00:52:13,079 --> 00:52:19,199
takes a break. And yeah, I want to remind everybody

963
00:52:19,199 --> 00:52:21,880
again if you do want your question, but now that.

964
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 2: Just needs some mouths trawing up. What do you want

965
00:52:25,039 --> 00:52:26,119
to do? Continue or break or what?

966
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: Let me continue here? I'll take my turn, okay, Right,

967
00:52:30,079 --> 00:52:33,000
So let's look at the first presupposition that's a false presubposition,

968
00:52:33,079 --> 00:52:38,039
which is that if you can't show me Abraham predicting

969
00:52:39,159 --> 00:52:42,639
the rise of Moses, then there's absolutely no way or

970
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,280
basis to believe in the fact that we should accept

971
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:49,199
Moses if we followed Abraham. I'm saying, let's say we

972
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,880
were existing back then the time of Abraham, right, or

973
00:52:52,119 --> 00:52:56,440
or theoretically we could do this assumed thing like if

974
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:00,800
it's true that there's progressive revelation, then I already addressed

975
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,920
this in the open statement already said that Jeremiah understood

976
00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,840
more than what was understood in the early text of scripture.

977
00:53:08,159 --> 00:53:11,719
It's not obscure passages. It's your assumption that a texts

978
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,599
obscure because it's maybe something you had not thought of

979
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,360
I already. I mean, these are multiple texts in Exodus,

980
00:53:18,519 --> 00:53:22,480
the burning bush and this being worshiped right, and then

981
00:53:22,599 --> 00:53:26,079
later it's identified in Exodus twenty two the burning bush.

982
00:53:26,119 --> 00:53:28,840
Excuse me, extra twenty three, Extra three and extra twenty three.

983
00:53:29,159 --> 00:53:31,599
It identifies the angel of the Lord as what's in

984
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:37,079
the burning bush. That's not a flippant obscure thing. That's

985
00:53:37,119 --> 00:53:41,079
a very powerful attestation to the fact that those theophanes

986
00:53:41,679 --> 00:53:48,079
are not created angelic forms. They are a separate hypostasis, right,

987
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:51,599
a difference from the Father, my Lord said, the Lord

988
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:53,920
said to my Lord, sit at my right hand until

989
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:56,920
I make your enemies your footstool. As Jesus said, who

990
00:53:57,079 --> 00:53:59,800
was David talking about? Who was David talking to? Jesus

991
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:02,840
said this to the people that like you who don't

992
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:04,880
believe that Jesus was saying that he was divine and

993
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,519
he was the Messiah. In fact, Jesus says this countless

994
00:54:07,559 --> 00:54:10,480
times to the Pharisees. You're making the exact same arguments

995
00:54:10,519 --> 00:54:12,920
that the Pharisees made. And it's funny because Jesus says

996
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,199
the exact same things that he would say to you.

997
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,239
He says, who is David talking about? Now, guess what

998
00:54:18,639 --> 00:54:21,239
Jews believe. That's a Messianic passage. They've always said it

999
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:23,760
was a Messianic passage. You say that, where do we

1000
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,679
see this prediction of Jesus and this suffering dying savior

1001
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,920
in all of the psalms where David says he's suffering

1002
00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:31,679
and he's dying and he knows that God's going to

1003
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:36,360
redeem him. All of those psalms are predictions of the death, burial,

1004
00:54:36,519 --> 00:54:39,599
and resurrection of Christ. In Hoseiah sixth there is the

1005
00:54:39,679 --> 00:54:42,880
statement that on the third day he will revive us,

1006
00:54:43,119 --> 00:54:44,840
he will save us from our sins. Now, I know

1007
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,480
you're going to say, that's just talking about Israel, the

1008
00:54:47,559 --> 00:54:50,119
son of Man who as sins before the ancient of days.

1009
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,800
That's just talking about Israel. And what was your source

1010
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,440
for that? Your source was the arbitrary ad hoc scholars

1011
00:54:57,119 --> 00:54:59,960
that don't believe what we believe. By the way, Raymond

1012
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,000
does not believe in the Trinity like we believe. Orthodox

1013
00:55:03,079 --> 00:55:08,639
trinitarianism is not like evangelicalism. It's distinct. There's no religion

1014
00:55:08,679 --> 00:55:11,599
in the world that has the Orthodox conception of who

1015
00:55:11,679 --> 00:55:15,760
God is and what his the distinction between his actions

1016
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:19,400
and his essence are. I gave you a whole, simple

1017
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:24,119
explanation and question about the distinction between God's energies and

1018
00:55:24,199 --> 00:55:27,800
his actions and creation. You completely ignored it. You completely

1019
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:31,199
ignored the question. If God's actions are the same as

1020
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,360
his essence, then his action of creating the world is

1021
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,559
eternal just like his essence. That means creation is eternal.

1022
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:41,719
That means creation takes on a divine attribute. You didn't

1023
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:43,599
answer this. You just moved on and all you did

1024
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:47,320
was state what the Surahs say the divine essence was.

1025
00:55:48,159 --> 00:55:50,639
I already said that's what the divine essence was. I agree,

1026
00:55:50,679 --> 00:55:53,320
I stated that in your view, you're going to say this.

1027
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,360
You did exactly what I said you would do. Now again,

1028
00:55:57,679 --> 00:56:00,079
just appealing to Raymond Brown. Appealing to those people, Well,

1029
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:04,639
that's appeals to authority. That's a fallacy. Your whole position

1030
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:07,519
is based on dialectics. That's what stands out to me.

1031
00:56:07,679 --> 00:56:10,119
For example, you look at a lot of texts that

1032
00:56:10,679 --> 00:56:13,400
show the humanity of Christ. Are you not aware that

1033
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:15,679
we believe that Jesus had a fully human nature. This

1034
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:17,639
is what the incarnation is in order for us to

1035
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:19,800
be restored and save from the power of death and corruption.

1036
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:23,000
We believe that the Son of God intentionally took on

1037
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:26,320
our nature in order that our nature might be restored

1038
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,679
to immorality, to the immortality that God always intended us

1039
00:56:29,679 --> 00:56:32,480
to have before the fall. So, for example, in John seventeen,

1040
00:56:32,559 --> 00:56:35,320
when John talks about the glory that he shared with

1041
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:37,440
the Father before the foundation of the world. Oh wait,

1042
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:40,480
I thought Jesus doesn't have a pre existence. One John seventeen,

1043
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:42,920
he says that the glory that he shared before the

1044
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:45,199
foundation of the world with the Father is what he

1045
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:49,400
intends to communicate to his followers to church. And as

1046
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:51,639
you read through the High Priestly Prayer of John seventeen,

1047
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:55,440
you'll notice that he also consistently refers to the premiscy

1048
00:56:55,519 --> 00:56:57,880
of the monarchia or the archae, the god Head of

1049
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:00,920
the Father, and the Spirit whose he's whom he's going

1050
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:03,079
to sin. Right as it moves into the later chapters

1051
00:57:03,199 --> 00:57:06,159
through that I priestly prayer. So all through John seventeen

1052
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:09,480
eighteen and so forth you see the trinity everywhere present.

1053
00:57:09,599 --> 00:57:12,519
Now you say, where is this clear explication of the Trinity.

1054
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:16,559
I just told you that there's an idea of a

1055
00:57:16,639 --> 00:57:19,159
multiplicity in relationship to God in the Old Testament from

1056
00:57:19,199 --> 00:57:22,639
the beginning, from Genesis. Rabbis were debating this before the

1057
00:57:22,719 --> 00:57:25,760
coming of Christ. They were debating the fact that there's

1058
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,000
a multiplicity in the God at how do we explain

1059
00:57:28,039 --> 00:57:30,519
and understand this? So you're actually wrong to say that

1060
00:57:30,599 --> 00:57:35,119
there is a strict unitive view even in Judaism. Philo

1061
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:38,159
is an example of this. Philoh didn't understand. He couldn't

1062
00:57:38,199 --> 00:57:41,320
conceive of this right. And again there's a progressive revelation.

1063
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:45,719
You cited the supposed disjunction between what the early Church

1064
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:49,159
and followers of Jesus believed about Jesus, even though there

1065
00:57:49,159 --> 00:57:52,199
are countless examples. For example, again throughout the Gospel of John,

1066
00:57:52,239 --> 00:57:53,920
and the Gospel of John is not the only one.

1067
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:57,960
There are multiple situations where Jesus says that He's fulfillment

1068
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:00,400
of all of these things. He says, Moses, what about me?

1069
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:01,880
You search the scriptures because you think that is in

1070
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,760
that you have eternal life when it is Moses that

1071
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:07,840
wrote about me. Everything that Moses is writing is about me.

1072
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:09,880
And one thing I've noticed in your debate that you

1073
00:58:10,039 --> 00:58:13,000
have not seemed to grasp is that there's a progression

1074
00:58:13,159 --> 00:58:15,320
not just through revelation, and not just to what Jesus

1075
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:18,119
came to teach, but to the whole New Testament period,

1076
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:22,639
this transition period that it's sometimes called in theology, from

1077
00:58:22,679 --> 00:58:24,800
the birth of Christ all the way up to the

1078
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:26,840
destruction of the Temple in seventy eight. You seem to

1079
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:30,079
be completely unaware of this. The destruction of the temple

1080
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:33,800
is the end of the Mosaic administration in terms of

1081
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:40,719
its ceremonial application. Jesus himself, Jeremiah, the prophets Amous, they

1082
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:44,280
make the distinction between the moral and the ceremonial commands. Okay,

1083
00:58:44,719 --> 00:58:47,199
and if the gentiles are going to be included into

1084
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:50,159
the church, which is what the predictions of countless Old

1085
00:58:50,199 --> 00:58:54,239
Testament prophecies are. Jeremiah three, Hoseaiah one, ten and eleven,

1086
00:58:54,679 --> 00:58:58,199
Malachi one, eleven and twelve, he back A two, fourteen

1087
00:58:58,199 --> 00:59:02,440
and fifteen, Jeremiah three, fourteen to eighteen, Ezekiel forty seven

1088
00:59:02,519 --> 00:59:05,159
twenty one to twenty three, Joel three and Acts two

1089
00:59:06,039 --> 00:59:09,719
fulfilled in Acts two Isaiah eleven one through ten, Jeremiah

1090
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:14,079
twenty five, eighteen sixteen, nineteen through twenty, Jeremiah thirty eight,

1091
00:59:14,159 --> 00:59:17,159
thirty one to thirty four, Micah four one through four,

1092
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:21,079
Zechariah two fifteen, Zechariah eight twenty one to twenty three,

1093
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:23,760
the latter sections in chapters of Isaiah. As you mentioned,

1094
00:59:24,199 --> 00:59:27,679
they're all believed in Judaism to be Messianic prophecies. And

1095
00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:30,920
what do they describe when the Messiah comes? They'd say

1096
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:35,440
that the distinctive mark that the world will know when

1097
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:39,679
the Messiah comes is that the gentile nations will begin

1098
00:59:39,880 --> 00:59:44,400
to worship and honor the God of Israel. Now, when

1099
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,559
Jesus came, he says in the gospels, even in the

1100
00:59:47,599 --> 00:59:50,440
Gospels that you don't accept, but even in the synoptic

1101
00:59:50,519 --> 00:59:53,199
Gospels Matth in Luke twenty one. In Matthew twenty four,

1102
00:59:53,599 --> 00:59:57,239
he says that when you see Jerusalem destroyed, then you

1103
00:59:57,280 --> 00:59:59,280
will know that the kingdom is going to the Gentiles.

1104
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:02,320
He says in Luke twenty that's exactly what happened in

1105
01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:05,800
seventy a d In seventy eight, just as Josephus described

1106
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:10,800
as an eyewitness, the temple was destroyed, Christians fled. Christianity

1107
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:13,840
spread to the Roman Empire. It spread throughout the Empire,

1108
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:17,360
and the in gathering of all of these Messianic prophecies

1109
01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:20,199
from the minor and major profits all the way back

1110
01:00:20,199 --> 01:00:24,119
to Genesis to Abraham Justis twelve fifteen seventeen, that all

1111
01:00:24,199 --> 01:00:26,000
the nations of the earth will be drawn into this

1112
01:00:26,159 --> 01:00:30,159
kingdom that completely destroys your entire position and proves that

1113
01:00:30,199 --> 01:00:31,000
he was the Messiah.

1114
01:00:33,519 --> 01:00:35,840
Speaker 2: Jake, can I can you just give me one minute please?

1115
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:38,280
I need to have a quick comfort break. Yeah, it's

1116
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:47,000
all right, Yeah, Yeah, that's fine, Yes, all right.

1117
01:00:47,079 --> 01:00:50,400
Speaker 1: So we've got some good questions here. We're going to

1118
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:56,599
get to those here in a minute. I was getting

1119
01:00:56,679 --> 01:00:58,480
I felt like a preacher there. I was starting to

1120
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,800
feel like krefflow Dollar, like a street preacher, like not

1121
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:07,599
kreplow Dollar. I'm joking, but I was getting animated there.

1122
01:01:08,119 --> 01:01:10,599
I'll tell you what, eight minutes. I didn't really think

1123
01:01:10,639 --> 01:01:12,599
about what kind of time frame I would set up,

1124
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:15,599
you know, when we agreed to do this. Eight minutes

1125
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:17,800
is man, I'll tell you what that flies by, So

1126
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:21,360
I like, I write all these notes down and you know,

1127
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:25,079
the eight minutes just like it's over. So if if

1128
01:01:25,119 --> 01:01:27,280
you are listening to this and you want to go back,

1129
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:29,320
I would I would say listen to this again, because

1130
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:34,360
we're both kind of having to fly quickly through addressing

1131
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:36,159
a whole lot of topics, and I'm trying to go

1132
01:01:36,239 --> 01:01:41,119
as fast as i can into to reach his points.

1133
01:01:42,239 --> 01:01:44,719
So you know, I would I would suggest for people listening,

1134
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:46,480
you know, you might want to re listen to our

1135
01:01:46,519 --> 01:01:48,639
debate here because we are covering a lot of topics.

1136
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:51,800
It almost feels like a rapid fire. So are you

1137
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:55,599
would you like to go yes? Thank you for that. Jay.

1138
01:01:55,639 --> 01:01:58,199
Speaker 2: I think it's been a misunderstanding about one thing we Muslims.

1139
01:01:58,239 --> 01:02:00,320
As we as Muslims, believe that Jesus. So I have

1140
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:03,880
no problem whatsoever with prophecies of the Messiah, and that's

1141
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:06,920
not my issue here about my authority. By the way,

1142
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:09,760
my authority is God and his word, his speech in

1143
01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:12,840
the Koran, and the prophet Mohammad. So I just want

1144
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:16,079
to clear up where my pre oppositions are. Shouldn't be surprising.

1145
01:02:16,719 --> 01:02:18,599
I don't presuppose the Bible. We have today is the

1146
01:02:18,639 --> 01:02:20,800
word of God, that Islam. The Koran says it's been

1147
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:25,000
corrupted and changed. The only uncorrupted, only unchanged revelation we

1148
01:02:25,119 --> 01:02:29,360
have that still exists is the Koran. So that's my authority.

1149
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:31,760
And if I contract anything in the Koran, then i'm

1150
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:35,079
what I'm. What I say is to be disregarded. Just

1151
01:02:35,119 --> 01:02:36,840
to try, I have made some notes, which I should

1152
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:38,920
have done earlier, but just to remind me of some thing.

1153
01:02:38,960 --> 01:02:42,480
As you said, I reject this idea progressive revelation. I

1154
01:02:42,519 --> 01:02:45,440
don't think there's anything in the Jewish scriptures suggesting that

1155
01:02:45,519 --> 01:02:48,039
God's gone to disclose that he's no longer one God,

1156
01:02:48,079 --> 01:02:50,000
but he now can become three in one God. Or

1157
01:02:50,639 --> 01:02:53,480
I don't buy this progressive I think that's a device

1158
01:02:53,559 --> 01:02:57,320
that's been invented by Christians to account for the discontinuity,

1159
01:02:57,480 --> 01:03:01,400
the radical discontinuity between their beliefs as we see in

1160
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:03,800
the New Testament and elsewhere and the Jewish scriptures. So

1161
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:06,480
I think that's a device to, oh, well, you weren't

1162
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:09,119
told really about the truth about God until that the

1163
01:03:09,239 --> 01:03:11,360
accounts of Nicea came along, and then we realized that

1164
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:16,119
Jesus was God. I don't buy that. In terms of worship,

1165
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:18,599
I'm just a scattergan approach here, because you mentioned these

1166
01:03:18,639 --> 01:03:20,719
things in a fairly kind of arbitrary way. It seemed

1167
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:24,079
worship is a tricky term. In the Bible, it had

1168
01:03:24,119 --> 01:03:26,920
a much broader application than it does today, where worship

1169
01:03:27,079 --> 01:03:30,599
is normally understood to be exclusively reserved for God. Then

1170
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:33,440
even in the Greek of the New Testament Pross and Nusikos,

1171
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:37,239
it meant obedience. You do abeyance to someone, and you

1172
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:39,239
could do it to rulers. People did it to Jesus,

1173
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:42,920
Sarah did it to Abraham. In the separagains of the

1174
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:45,599
Old Testament, this is not something that's reserved for God alone.

1175
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:48,199
And indeed the word God itself is reserved for human

1176
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:50,800
beings in the Old Testament, like Psalm forty five and

1177
01:03:51,079 --> 01:03:54,400
Isaiah nine and so on. And in Jewish literature you

1178
01:03:54,519 --> 01:03:59,280
mentioned Philo, Actually he calls Moses God. You're probably nervous already.

1179
01:04:00,159 --> 01:04:02,960
So this language of divinity is quite promiscuously used, both

1180
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:06,559
in the Bible and in other literature. And we have

1181
01:04:06,639 --> 01:04:08,679
that in common with the great co Roman world, where

1182
01:04:08,679 --> 01:04:11,840
they believed in divinities and intermediaries between the One High

1183
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:15,000
God and human beings. So I'm not surprised that Jesus

1184
01:04:15,079 --> 01:04:17,519
came to be called divine. Ultimately is very much the

1185
01:04:17,639 --> 01:04:20,920
thing you did in the ancient world to hero figures

1186
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:24,239
of religious figures. You proclaim them to be divine that

1187
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:27,840
haven't all over the place coming back. And you also

1188
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:31,679
made about Psalm one hundred and ten, which is as

1189
01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:34,880
you say, are very frequently cited Psalm and frequently misunderstood

1190
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:38,000
sum by Christians. I'm looking at the new revised standard version,

1191
01:04:38,039 --> 01:04:41,480
which is the version the academics prefer to use. That's

1192
01:04:41,519 --> 01:04:44,639
probably a black mark against them. But anyway, it says

1193
01:04:44,679 --> 01:04:46,480
he the Lord says to my Lord, sit at my

1194
01:04:46,599 --> 01:04:48,840
right hand until I make a footstool of your enemies.

1195
01:04:49,159 --> 01:04:51,159
The word the first instance of the word lawd though,

1196
01:04:51,199 --> 01:04:55,039
is in capital letters, suggesting what it means the petrogrammaton

1197
01:04:55,079 --> 01:04:57,800
as you know, the Yahweh. The second lord in that

1198
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:00,880
center is in lower case letters, meaning a lord in

1199
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,480
a broader sense. So that could be Master, it could

1200
01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:05,480
be teacher, it could be Messiah, it could be any

1201
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:10,679
human being. So to reinterpret this passage in its Hebrew context,

1202
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:14,639
these are Hebrew words. It says God says to his Messiah.

1203
01:05:15,239 --> 01:05:18,320
It's not saying God is not talking about plurality within

1204
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:20,360
god Head. And I know Christians interpret it that way,

1205
01:05:20,719 --> 01:05:23,239
but the original it is an assurance of victory for

1206
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:26,400
God's priest king. That's the original context. The Psalm of

1207
01:05:26,519 --> 01:05:28,639
David has nothing to do with the prophecy of the fire.

1208
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:33,159
Is God talking to David? Actually you made the claim. Well,

1209
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:34,840
come back to that claim you made. I just want

1210
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:37,360
to read you something here. But Paul said, which comes

1211
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:40,360
to another the problem for me. I've read this before.

1212
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:43,679
Psalm fifteen, verse three and four. It says I had

1213
01:05:43,719 --> 01:05:46,400
it on to you as a first importance what I

1214
01:05:46,519 --> 01:05:49,760
received that Christ died for our sins and accordance with

1215
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:52,280
the scriptures, and that he was buried, and that he

1216
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:55,440
was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures.

1217
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:57,920
And then it goes on it's that bit there which

1218
01:05:58,039 --> 01:06:01,639
constantly refacing the scriptures. And you made the astonishing claim

1219
01:06:01,679 --> 01:06:04,320
to me that all of this palems contain the prediction

1220
01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:07,440
of the death and resurrection of Jesus. Actually, none of

1221
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:10,519
the psalms at all claim any of that. But that

1222
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:14,079
is called ester Jesus or icee Jesus where you read

1223
01:06:14,159 --> 01:06:16,079
stuff in if you read all the psalms in the

1224
01:06:16,199 --> 01:06:19,840
historical or literary context, the psalms that you think refer

1225
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:22,880
to Jesus refer to David, refer to people at the

1226
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:24,840
live at the time, none of them. And there's no

1227
01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:27,599
way in the Old Testament anywhere that says that Christ

1228
01:06:27,639 --> 01:06:30,719
would die for our sins. Know ways does it say

1229
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:32,599
that he'd be buried? No ways does it say he

1230
01:06:32,719 --> 01:06:35,599
was raised on the third day anywhere. And this is

1231
01:06:35,679 --> 01:06:38,400
acknowledged by scholars, by Christian scholars. I know you don't

1232
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:41,960
like them, but anyway, this is acknowledged by your own scholars,

1233
01:06:42,039 --> 01:06:45,320
so that this is a bizarre claim to make. I

1234
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:47,519
come back to my awesome other state where I said

1235
01:06:47,519 --> 01:06:50,840
that the Nativity narratives, which talk about the actual birth

1236
01:06:50,920 --> 01:06:54,159
of Jesus and the pregnancy of Mary and so on, I, Matthew,

1237
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:58,320
and Luke do not have any intimation at all of

1238
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:02,519
an incarnation. These are precisely the passages where you would

1239
01:07:02,599 --> 01:07:07,440
expect a Christian theologian or Christian writer if they believed that,

1240
01:07:07,880 --> 01:07:10,719
to actually refer to the incarnation. There's no reference to

1241
01:07:10,719 --> 01:07:13,320
the incarnation in the Gospel of Luke in the Nativity

1242
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:17,599
narratives or anywhere else. No reference of Matthew. And of

1243
01:07:17,679 --> 01:07:19,519
course it's not mentioned in Mark because he doesn't heaven

1244
01:07:19,559 --> 01:07:22,199
Nativity in narrative. So why do we say this Because

1245
01:07:22,280 --> 01:07:25,360
it shows that the idea of the incarnation, it doesn't

1246
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:27,400
exist out of three in the four Gospels, even though

1247
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:29,599
they would have mentioned it in the context of his birth.

1248
01:07:30,119 --> 01:07:32,840
John mentioned it is the very last one to be written,

1249
01:07:33,079 --> 01:07:36,360
and it has this kind of cosmic Christ who comes

1250
01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:38,760
to earth like a visitive amount of space. It spends

1251
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:41,960
a brief time amongst us, and then that goes back

1252
01:07:42,039 --> 01:07:46,599
to Heaven again, very different from Mark, very different from Luke.

1253
01:07:47,159 --> 01:07:49,280
It's a very different kind of feel, which is why

1254
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:52,519
you have to choose Historically, scholars have to choose which

1255
01:07:52,599 --> 01:07:55,079
is more likely to be the historical Jesus, and they're

1256
01:07:55,159 --> 01:07:59,360
all chosen the earlier gospels, not John for the basis

1257
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:05,000
of their theology. So and what was the other incarnation?

1258
01:08:05,239 --> 01:08:08,679
So the incarnation is not taught in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

1259
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:13,679
I do come back to this passage in Acts because

1260
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:16,760
it's not just that you told me in response to

1261
01:08:16,840 --> 01:08:19,600
Peter's sermon in Acts, but we believe Jesus is God,

1262
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:23,560
man and God. Yeah, but Peter doesn't. Peter doesn't say that.

1263
01:08:24,039 --> 01:08:26,359
And if he was God, surely that would be something

1264
01:08:26,399 --> 01:08:28,600
he would mention you that it Israelites, listen to what

1265
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:30,680
I have to say about Jesus. He was a man

1266
01:08:31,039 --> 01:08:33,760
tested to you by God with these are power, ones

1267
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:35,920
and signs that God did through him among you as

1268
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:39,520
you yourself. Now, if Jesus being God was that important,

1269
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,720
which is absolutely central, he would have mentioned it. He

1270
01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:46,159
had no belief that Jesus was God. He never mentions that.

1271
01:08:46,239 --> 01:08:48,920
He he says he was a man that tested by God.

1272
01:08:49,079 --> 01:08:51,960
And then the end he talks about God doing much Jesus,

1273
01:08:52,039 --> 01:08:55,279
that God made him a clier. But Jesus was God.

1274
01:08:55,359 --> 01:08:57,600
He wouldn't talk like that. He would say, oh, well,

1275
01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:00,239
you know the second person of Trinity. And and also

1276
01:09:00,279 --> 01:09:02,680
you slightly misrepresent Orthodox theology if I may be so

1277
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:05,800
bold as to say, Orthodox theology does teach that Jesus

1278
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:09,199
is God if you accept the counsel of Nicea. And

1279
01:09:09,239 --> 01:09:11,720
I'm aware of the philiquay course, but that's not relevant here.

1280
01:09:12,119 --> 01:09:14,720
The counsel of Nicia clearly says that Jesus God from

1281
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:17,920
God light from Light the Counts of Chelsenden is very

1282
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:21,920
clear that Jesus is God, and yet Peter doesn't attest

1283
01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:24,600
to this belief. Neither does Paul, who says that Jesus

1284
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:27,239
has a God, and Jesus himself says that I have

1285
01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:29,680
a God. I am returned to your Father and my father,

1286
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:32,239
your God and my God. Now, there are a few

1287
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:35,039
marginal and late statements in the New Testament which do

1288
01:09:35,159 --> 01:09:38,159
say Jesus God. I don't doubt that Jesus is called God.

1289
01:09:38,239 --> 01:09:39,920
I'm not like some of those Muslims or probably all

1290
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:41,960
the Muslims I know actually who say, oh, I doesn't

1291
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:43,880
say Jesus God anywhere in the Bible. Of course it does,

1292
01:09:44,600 --> 01:09:48,000
but they are obscure and marginal and late, like Titus

1293
01:09:48,119 --> 01:09:51,399
and so on. That they're not in the earliest Jesus material.

1294
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:53,960
They're not the dominant theme of the New Testament, which

1295
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:59,640
is Jesus is the Messiah. Right anyway, Can we change

1296
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:02,840
the form now, because conversational thing.

1297
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:07,159
Speaker 1: Or nat I want to give my eight minute response

1298
01:10:07,199 --> 01:10:09,640
and then we can change the format. Is that? Okay?

1299
01:10:10,119 --> 01:10:10,600
Speaker 2: Go ahead?

1300
01:10:12,439 --> 01:10:20,720
Speaker 1: All right? So again I think you are restating the

1301
01:10:20,760 --> 01:10:24,640
position and not understanding the different critiques that I've given

1302
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:28,359
at what you're saying. So the fact that you, on

1303
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:30,960
the one hand, will cite a section of what Peter

1304
01:10:31,119 --> 01:10:34,960
says and you'll say this is what Peter taught, then

1305
01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:39,359
you turn around and say in other areas, it's teaching

1306
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:43,720
that Christ is God. You have a completely arbitrary picking

1307
01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:47,079
and choosing of which text you're going to accept and

1308
01:10:47,159 --> 01:10:49,880
to pit them against the other texts, when you know

1309
01:10:50,039 --> 01:10:52,560
full well, having been previously Christian, that that's not what

1310
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:55,640
we teach. We don't teach that because one tax talks

1311
01:10:55,680 --> 01:11:00,119
about the the manhood, that Jesus assumed that therefore or

1312
01:11:00,279 --> 01:11:03,640
it proves that he's only man. This is a really

1313
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:08,439
simplistic and dodgy way to do exegesis, which you know better.

1314
01:11:08,680 --> 01:11:11,039
You know that Christianity doesn't operate that way. And I

1315
01:11:11,159 --> 01:11:13,319
guarantee you that we could take the Quran and we

1316
01:11:13,359 --> 01:11:16,960
could find one passage that says something about a law

1317
01:11:17,039 --> 01:11:19,000
that he did X, Y Z, and then we could

1318
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:22,560
absoluteize that and say that therefore he does nothing else.

1319
01:11:23,159 --> 01:11:26,840
But you operate dialectically because you've bought into dialectics. Higher

1320
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:31,640
criticism is based on Marcianism, gnosticism dialectics. Ultimately, it's based

1321
01:11:31,680 --> 01:11:34,119
on the assumption that Welhausen had that the Old Testament

1322
01:11:34,199 --> 01:11:36,039
God could not be the same God in the New Testament.

1323
01:11:36,199 --> 01:11:38,680
That was a presupposition that he had that he never questioned.

1324
01:11:39,199 --> 01:11:43,000
You have similar presubositions. In fact, you contradicted yourself outright.

1325
01:11:43,079 --> 01:11:45,319
You said that you have no problem with all of

1326
01:11:45,359 --> 01:11:49,039
those prophecies being prophecies of the Messiah. And then you

1327
01:11:49,119 --> 01:11:51,800
turn around and said, but wait a minute, when David

1328
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:54,880
is writing in the Psalms, it's only about David. Did

1329
01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:57,640
you believe that those prophecies and those texts are about

1330
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:00,079
the Messiah? They don't deny they were talking about Dad.

1331
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:02,840
Of course they're talking about David. We know David wrote

1332
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:06,800
those songs. That doesn't exclude that they're not Messianic prophecies

1333
01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:09,159
or types. And in every debate where people have talked

1334
01:12:09,159 --> 01:12:12,239
about typology to you, you ignore it. You said, you

1335
01:12:12,359 --> 01:12:14,520
act like there's no such thing as typology, that that

1336
01:12:14,680 --> 01:12:17,119
typology doesn't show or predict anything. In fact, have many

1337
01:12:17,159 --> 01:12:20,640
many essays on typology. Where we see in the Book

1338
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:23,199
of Numbers, we see Moses lifting up the serpent on

1339
01:12:23,239 --> 01:12:25,920
a pole. What does Jesus say to Nicodemus, Jesus says

1340
01:12:25,960 --> 01:12:28,319
that I will be lifted up and raised up just

1341
01:12:28,439 --> 01:12:30,039
like the serpent on the pole. But you say that

1342
01:12:30,520 --> 01:12:32,880
Jesus never said he was going to do this. Over

1343
01:12:32,960 --> 01:12:34,840
and over and over and over throughout this discussion, I

1344
01:12:34,960 --> 01:12:37,960
give you example after example after example, and you go

1345
01:12:38,119 --> 01:12:40,199
to your notes and cite liberal scholars and say that

1346
01:12:40,319 --> 01:12:43,199
that doesn't exist. And you say that, well, you can

1347
01:12:43,239 --> 01:12:46,560
go to some fundamentalist seminary. Look, those are dumb arguments.

1348
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:48,479
I can make all of those same arguments about you

1349
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:50,359
and your text. I don't do that, right, did I

1350
01:12:50,479 --> 01:12:53,239
say that? I say, let me find a liberal scholar

1351
01:12:53,560 --> 01:12:57,399
who doubts the original authenticity of what Mohammad said or

1352
01:12:57,439 --> 01:13:00,199
the Koran or these hadiths. And you know full well

1353
01:13:00,319 --> 01:13:02,319
that they do. And there are people who doubt this

1354
01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:05,880
and do higher critical approaches to Islam. So just citing

1355
01:13:05,960 --> 01:13:08,880
higher critics about Christianity, this is a really and this

1356
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:13,199
is extremely weak argument, and it presupposes unbelief. Now, in

1357
01:13:13,319 --> 01:13:16,039
our worldview, in our paradigm, you can't just come to

1358
01:13:16,119 --> 01:13:19,199
the text and presuppose unbelief because you have to repent

1359
01:13:19,359 --> 01:13:22,000
and you have to experience the text within the context

1360
01:13:22,119 --> 01:13:24,600
of the Church and the liturgy. They don't operate as

1361
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:26,840
texts on their own. They can only be understood within

1362
01:13:27,439 --> 01:13:31,319
the existential experience of the Church herself historically. And you

1363
01:13:31,359 --> 01:13:33,640
can call that fundamentalism if you want to. But guess what,

1364
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:37,520
that's a term that was invented to demonize people who

1365
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:41,199
actually just believe in our creed. I already pointed out earlier.

1366
01:13:41,399 --> 01:13:43,920
You can look at the epistles of Ignatius, you can

1367
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:46,840
look at Justin Martyr, you can look at Irenaeus, you

1368
01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:49,640
can look at Cyprian, you can look at polycarp you

1369
01:13:49,720 --> 01:13:52,399
can look at all these Apostolic fathers, and they teach

1370
01:13:52,479 --> 01:13:54,319
the deity of Christ, the very thing that you say

1371
01:13:54,479 --> 01:13:59,520
is later kind of absoluteized at Nicea, they absolutely teach this.

1372
01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:01,800
I mean, I've read them all, and anybody who reads them.

1373
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:04,079
Speaker 2: I can give you the only person.

1374
01:14:04,199 --> 01:14:05,800
Speaker 1: No no, no, no, no no no, I have four

1375
01:14:05,880 --> 01:14:07,479
minutes left. I never interrupted you.

1376
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:11,039
Speaker 2: But you're saying, you're saying I have four minutes left.

1377
01:14:11,239 --> 01:14:13,680
Speaker 1: I didn't interrupt you. You can you keep talking.

1378
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:15,880
Speaker 2: I've read these people too. Don't don't think you've got any.

1379
01:14:15,920 --> 01:14:18,239
Speaker 1: I know that's the It's not you don't get to

1380
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:19,319
the jact that you read.

1381
01:14:19,199 --> 01:14:21,039
Speaker 2: These people, I studied these at university?

1382
01:14:22,039 --> 01:14:23,720
Speaker 1: Who I studied at university?

1383
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:25,760
Speaker 2: Well, fine, but we'll equal footing.

1384
01:14:27,680 --> 01:14:29,960
Speaker 1: Again. Okay, I'm gonna give This is what you do.

1385
01:14:30,079 --> 01:14:31,399
This is what you do to the other people. You

1386
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:34,359
you interrupt in the middle of their talk. Uh, you

1387
01:14:34,479 --> 01:14:38,239
agreed to let me have my four minutes, so.

1388
01:14:38,359 --> 01:14:40,399
Speaker 2: You can have another six minutes. I don't mind. I'm

1389
01:14:40,399 --> 01:14:43,680
not precious about this. You have another six minutes, doesn't

1390
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:44,000
bother me.

1391
01:14:45,159 --> 01:14:49,600
Speaker 1: Okay. So you will find in the Apostolic Canons, Okay,

1392
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:51,520
you will find in the Shepherd of Hermis, you will

1393
01:14:51,560 --> 01:14:54,159
find in the didti Key, you will find in polycarp

1394
01:14:54,239 --> 01:14:56,920
You will find in the epistles of Ignacious of Antioch that,

1395
01:14:57,359 --> 01:14:59,479
for example, in the Letters to the Ephesians and Letters

1396
01:14:59,479 --> 01:15:02,399
to Romans Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is called our God.

1397
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:05,439
In a letter to the Smyrneans, chapter ten, He's called

1398
01:15:05,479 --> 01:15:08,319
our God. Okay, this is pretty consistent. I think in

1399
01:15:08,399 --> 01:15:12,359
Ignacious epistles is something like sixteen times Jesus is explicitly

1400
01:15:12,399 --> 01:15:15,399
referred to as God. If you read the writings of

1401
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:20,159
just Saint Justin Martyr you'll notice that he describes the

1402
01:15:20,279 --> 01:15:23,239
oblation of the liturgy. It's a liturgical service. This is

1403
01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:26,439
one fifty a D. So the things that you think

1404
01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:30,359
are these later accretions invented later, No, are. They're proofs

1405
01:15:30,960 --> 01:15:34,359
of the continuity of Orthodox Christianity. Back to Saint Justin Martyr,

1406
01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:38,600
back to Ignatius, back to Ireineus. Now I want to

1407
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:40,720
move on to some of the things that you mentioned

1408
01:15:40,840 --> 01:15:43,399
that I didn't get to. You said that the Son

1409
01:15:43,439 --> 01:15:46,039
of God is created. We believe that the Son of

1410
01:15:46,079 --> 01:15:48,840
God is created in its humanity. So again, don't set

1411
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:51,239
up a dialectic between texts that we believe are talking

1412
01:15:51,319 --> 01:15:54,720
about the full humanity that Christ possessed, but we don't

1413
01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:57,359
exclude the other texts to talk about the full divinity

1414
01:15:57,399 --> 01:15:59,880
of Christ. We doub believe Christ is a human person.

1415
01:16:00,319 --> 01:16:02,920
The text where he talks about his limitations are willful

1416
01:16:03,039 --> 01:16:06,960
limitations that he underwent. So all of those texts are

1417
01:16:07,359 --> 01:16:10,359
arguing against against a strong man. They're only they only

1418
01:16:10,479 --> 01:16:15,000
work on the presubposition that you're correct that Jesus was

1419
01:16:15,199 --> 01:16:18,640
just an apocalyptic preacher the apocalypse that you think he

1420
01:16:18,920 --> 01:16:22,680
mispredicted or didn't get right or whatever. The text misinterpolated.

1421
01:16:23,159 --> 01:16:25,880
They're about seventy a D. Luke twenty one is a

1422
01:16:25,960 --> 01:16:27,840
prediction of what would happen in seventy eight that the

1423
01:16:27,880 --> 01:16:30,600
temple would be destroyed, and it was in seventy eight D.

1424
01:16:31,079 --> 01:16:33,479
That's why from the time of Christ to the time

1425
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:36,319
of the destruction of the Temple, it's the transition period. So, yes,

1426
01:16:36,359 --> 01:16:39,640
there's going to be decisions about what gentile converts need

1427
01:16:39,720 --> 01:16:41,399
to do when they come into the church. Do they

1428
01:16:41,439 --> 01:16:43,840
need to be circucized? You know you've heard this argument.

1429
01:16:43,920 --> 01:16:47,119
It's settled in Acts fifteen A. Right, So there's a process.

1430
01:16:47,199 --> 01:16:49,000
And even after this period when there's so a lot

1431
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:51,560
of Jewish converts in the first ten chapters of Acts,

1432
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:54,039
and even past the first ten chapters of Acts, when

1433
01:16:54,680 --> 01:16:58,439
the message begins to go out to the gentiles from

1434
01:16:58,520 --> 01:17:01,600
Paul and Peter. So what happens is that you have

1435
01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:05,439
this transition period and it becomes abundantly clear. Again, Jesus

1436
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:09,600
made this abundantly clear and Matthew twenty four in Luke

1437
01:17:09,640 --> 01:17:11,600
twenty one, when you read those two texts together side

1438
01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:13,520
by side, you'll see that he's talking about the destruction

1439
01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:16,600
of the temple that was the doing away, the providential

1440
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:19,279
doing away. Jesus says, in the parable of wicked mine dressers,

1441
01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:21,600
that that will happen, that the kingdom will be taken

1442
01:17:21,720 --> 01:17:24,399
from the Jews and given to a nation producing the

1443
01:17:24,439 --> 01:17:28,000
fruits thereof, namely all these predictions of the Gentile kingdom

1444
01:17:28,039 --> 01:17:30,479
and the Old Testament, which again you admitted that there's

1445
01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:33,239
all these prophecies about the coming of the Messiah, and

1446
01:17:33,319 --> 01:17:35,079
then you turn around and said, no, they're about David,

1447
01:17:35,079 --> 01:17:37,800
They're not about the Mesiah, they're not Messianic prophecies. You

1448
01:17:37,880 --> 01:17:42,600
completely contradicted yourself soles talking about the actions of God

1449
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:45,439
and God as the Father. Okay, again, I already told

1450
01:17:45,479 --> 01:17:48,600
you that Jesus has a father. That does not mean

1451
01:17:48,640 --> 01:17:51,520
that there's no trinity. Only on the basis of dialectics,

1452
01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:54,479
which is the basis of your whole philosophical approach. Would

1453
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:57,720
you think that because there's a distinction, there's a division

1454
01:17:58,520 --> 01:18:00,279
when justin Martin, are you going to try felt what

1455
01:18:00,319 --> 01:18:01,840
does he go to? He goes to the Angel, the

1456
01:18:01,880 --> 01:18:06,680
Lord theophanies. Now you said angels are never ever conceived

1457
01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:09,960
of in that way. The word angel just means messenger. Okay,

1458
01:18:10,079 --> 01:18:13,600
So Jesus is the messenger of Yahweh. He is that messenger.

1459
01:18:14,079 --> 01:18:16,439
So because the term could apply to a human messenger,

1460
01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:18,680
it could apply to an angel in the sense of

1461
01:18:18,720 --> 01:18:21,680
a created angelic being Michael Gabriel, And it could also

1462
01:18:21,720 --> 01:18:24,079
apply to the messenger of God's Covenant as he's called

1463
01:18:24,079 --> 01:18:26,960
the Old Testament. Right, So there's a consistent pattern of

1464
01:18:27,039 --> 01:18:31,000
those Theophanies being worshiped. You can't worship angels anytime in scripture,

1465
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:32,960
in the Torah, in the Old Testament, somebody worships or

1466
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:36,520
bowels before an angel, they're rebuked. Can't worship old deities.

1467
01:18:36,560 --> 01:18:39,680
You can't worship your ancestors, that's rebuked, but they're not

1468
01:18:39,880 --> 01:18:42,520
rebuked when they bow down and worship before the Theophanes.

1469
01:18:42,560 --> 01:18:45,319
Now you're gonna say, well, but you know, textual scholarship

1470
01:18:45,399 --> 01:18:49,359
tells us other things, and you know the modern textual critics,

1471
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:52,159
but you will not allow those same textual critics to

1472
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:55,399
attack Islam. You will not allow that same approach to

1473
01:18:55,520 --> 01:18:58,600
your religion. It's only that you selectively use these things

1474
01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:00,680
about all religion. Now, guess what I heard. You're referring

1475
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:03,239
to Mark and you referred to elements I think of

1476
01:19:03,319 --> 01:19:07,560
the documentary hypothesis. You referred to Q or Mark, which

1477
01:19:07,600 --> 01:19:09,359
it used to be the idea that Q is the

1478
01:19:09,439 --> 01:19:13,319
basis of mark. This hypothetical, Uh, you know, earliest text

1479
01:19:13,439 --> 01:19:16,239
or whatever. Are you aware of the shifting sands of

1480
01:19:16,479 --> 01:19:20,159
higher criticism that the theories that were popular fifty years ago,

1481
01:19:20,479 --> 01:19:23,560
one hundred years ago, they're dead. They're not even popular anymore.

1482
01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:25,880
If you go to Yale right now, into their biblical

1483
01:19:26,039 --> 01:19:29,560
section on YouTube, you'll find biblical scholars from Yale, the

1484
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:32,279
prestige that you worship. You'll find them saying all the

1485
01:19:32,319 --> 01:19:34,960
same things that I'm saying, that that the documentary hypothesis

1486
01:19:35,079 --> 01:19:39,560
has been discarded. So your presupposition is gone, It's not

1487
01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:50,960
even it's not even held anymore. All right, So I

1488
01:19:51,079 --> 01:19:53,720
need to take a we wei break. I'll be right

1489
01:19:53,800 --> 01:19:55,960
back if you would just hold on, hold on the

1490
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:56,720
fort just for a second.

1491
01:19:57,680 --> 01:20:56,960
Speaker 3: Needs to be drinking it, all right, Okay, what's on

1492
01:20:57,039 --> 01:20:57,359
your mind?

1493
01:20:59,039 --> 01:21:02,199
Speaker 2: I think that there's an issue here which needs to

1494
01:21:02,279 --> 01:21:04,279
be made clearer, and that is where I'm coming from

1495
01:21:04,359 --> 01:21:07,760
and where you're coming from. And I don't reject where

1496
01:21:07,760 --> 01:21:11,640
you're coming from in the sense of a traditioned, community

1497
01:21:11,760 --> 01:21:17,000
based ecclesial reading of scripture. I understand what you mean

1498
01:21:17,079 --> 01:21:19,159
by that. Obviously, it's a very Catholic idea, of the

1499
01:21:19,239 --> 01:21:22,199
Roman Catholic idea as well. Evangelicals don't think they do it,

1500
01:21:22,279 --> 01:21:23,960
but they are doing it as you and I know

1501
01:21:24,119 --> 01:21:26,359
perfectly well. They have their own tradition, just they don't

1502
01:21:26,359 --> 01:21:29,359
acknowledge it, by which I mean their own way of

1503
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:33,319
reading scripture, you know, focusing on maybe Paul or particular

1504
01:21:33,399 --> 01:21:37,279
Luther and understanding whatever. Yeah, so that's what you're doing.

1505
01:21:37,319 --> 01:21:39,439
And I understand that, and I'm not saying it's wrong

1506
01:21:40,279 --> 01:21:43,239
per se. It's not where I'm coming from. And I

1507
01:21:43,319 --> 01:21:47,119
think we're cross purposes here because how I see things

1508
01:21:47,880 --> 01:21:52,239
is different. As a Muslim, I view say, the Gospels

1509
01:21:52,319 --> 01:21:56,520
as products of of human beings. I view them as

1510
01:21:56,600 --> 01:21:58,720
like the Hedith literature share we say. I don't regard

1511
01:21:58,760 --> 01:21:59,479
them as revelation.

1512
01:22:00,079 --> 01:22:00,279
Speaker 1: You do.

1513
01:22:01,039 --> 01:22:03,520
Speaker 2: And this is why we're different. We're coming so when

1514
01:22:03,560 --> 01:22:05,319
I see Luke, for example, I think this is a

1515
01:22:05,399 --> 01:22:08,279
human text written in the first century. It's not revelation.

1516
01:22:08,439 --> 01:22:10,920
It's not inspired by God. Doesn't mean it's false or

1517
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:14,840
contains only error, but it's to be treated as any

1518
01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:17,079
other ancient texts written by people. Is we have no

1519
01:22:17,199 --> 01:22:20,479
special regard for it at all, Because I explain why

1520
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:24,640
for us, for Muslims, the Gospel the in Ngel, as

1521
01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:28,000
the crime makes clear, was something given to Jesus. The gospel,

1522
01:22:28,039 --> 01:22:30,399
it is something given to Jesus by God. He preaches

1523
01:22:30,479 --> 01:22:34,640
the in Ingel. These gospels that you revere are written

1524
01:22:34,880 --> 01:22:38,000
not by Jesus. You obviously don't claim they're written by Jesus.

1525
01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:42,319
They're written by other people. So for us is revelation

1526
01:22:42,479 --> 01:22:44,800
itself direct from God, whether be given to Jesus, Mohammad,

1527
01:22:44,880 --> 01:22:47,520
or Moses or whatever. That is the thing that we revere.

1528
01:22:48,439 --> 01:22:51,560
That these are human we as human biographies that are

1529
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:54,840
not inspired by God. That does not mean they're without value,

1530
01:22:55,199 --> 01:22:57,159
but they have to be critically understood.

1531
01:22:57,640 --> 01:23:00,760
Speaker 1: Now, Hiera criticism about Moses hang in a second.

1532
01:23:00,960 --> 01:23:04,439
Speaker 2: So when it comes to we also practice higher criticism.

1533
01:23:05,199 --> 01:23:07,560
I don't know this expression, that's very kind of nineteenth century.

1534
01:23:07,720 --> 01:23:11,439
We also practice critics, a critical approach to the Herdeth literature,

1535
01:23:11,720 --> 01:23:13,720
and that this has gone on almost from the beginning.

1536
01:23:13,720 --> 01:23:17,600
There's been a very sophisticated science of criticism where we

1537
01:23:17,720 --> 01:23:19,880
try and sort of what's authentic what isn't. We look

1538
01:23:19,920 --> 01:23:22,520
at the isnab, we look at the mattin the text itself.

1539
01:23:23,279 --> 01:23:26,399
We try and establish the reliability of the transmitters. And

1540
01:23:26,479 --> 01:23:29,880
it's a very sophisticated science. And this is over going

1541
01:23:29,920 --> 01:23:33,800
back from the eighth century onward. So we do practice

1542
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:38,560
sophisticated critical thinking about the Herdeth and that's been going

1543
01:23:38,600 --> 01:23:41,520
on since virtually since the beginning. But when it comes

1544
01:23:41,560 --> 01:23:43,279
to the Koran, and this is where we're going to

1545
01:23:43,319 --> 01:23:47,720
have to agree to disagree. The Kuran is different because

1546
01:23:48,119 --> 01:23:50,560
we view it. We believe it to be the actual

1547
01:23:50,800 --> 01:23:54,279
speech of God himself. It's not inspired work, it's not

1548
01:23:54,359 --> 01:23:57,760
written by Mohammad at all, although he has a role

1549
01:23:57,800 --> 01:24:00,439
to play in its transmission. But we view the actual

1550
01:24:00,680 --> 01:24:03,800
speech of God, so we view it as something you

1551
01:24:03,920 --> 01:24:08,840
can't practice human criticism of because that would be blasphemous,

1552
01:24:08,960 --> 01:24:10,640
is not appropriate. And now I know you have a

1553
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:13,039
you don't agree with that, which is fine. So that's

1554
01:24:13,079 --> 01:24:15,359
why I have a different approach to the Koran than

1555
01:24:15,399 --> 01:24:18,840
I would say to the four canonical Gospels, because I

1556
01:24:18,960 --> 01:24:22,760
view them as very different ontologies, very different genres. So

1557
01:24:22,880 --> 01:24:24,720
you may see that as inconsistency for me, it makes

1558
01:24:24,760 --> 01:24:26,720
perfect sense. The Koran is the word of God. It's

1559
01:24:26,800 --> 01:24:28,880
the speech of God. So is the Injured, so is

1560
01:24:28,920 --> 01:24:31,880
the Torahs, so is the the the Psalm, so is

1561
01:24:31,920 --> 01:24:35,520
the book given to Abraham, and so on. And I'm

1562
01:24:35,560 --> 01:24:37,880
not saying that the Bible itself doesn't contain the word

1563
01:24:38,039 --> 01:24:39,520
words of God. But it doesn't.

1564
01:24:39,560 --> 01:24:39,840
Speaker 1: In mind.

1565
01:24:39,920 --> 01:24:42,640
Speaker 2: You claim to be the word of God as a book.

1566
01:24:43,039 --> 01:24:46,680
But that not a problem because in your in your ecclesiology,

1567
01:24:47,159 --> 01:24:50,479
you have received these texts as word of God, because

1568
01:24:50,520 --> 01:24:52,640
they speak preserably to you as word of God, as

1569
01:24:52,680 --> 01:24:56,039
a church, and so they are inspired for you. But

1570
01:24:56,399 --> 01:25:00,000
that is but that's not something that we as Muslims recognize.

1571
01:25:00,079 --> 01:25:03,239
We see the human authorship of this as the primary characteristic,

1572
01:25:03,520 --> 01:25:05,479
and so we hold no special regard from them as

1573
01:25:05,560 --> 01:25:07,960
texts because they don't claim the revelation from God.

1574
01:25:08,760 --> 01:25:12,399
Speaker 1: Well again, hold on, do you accept the higher criticism

1575
01:25:12,520 --> 01:25:13,680
of the Torah and Moses?

1576
01:25:15,439 --> 01:25:16,800
Speaker 2: What do you mean by higher criticism?

1577
01:25:17,279 --> 01:25:19,000
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Do you accept the documentary

1578
01:25:19,079 --> 01:25:22,399
hypothesis and the things that the techniques that you're applying

1579
01:25:22,439 --> 01:25:24,479
to the Gospels. Do you accept that same approach to

1580
01:25:25,079 --> 01:25:25,960
the books of Moses?

1581
01:25:27,399 --> 01:25:30,920
Speaker 2: The way you have characterized so called high critism, something

1582
01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:35,960
I simply do not recognize. I mean, if you.

1583
01:25:35,960 --> 01:25:38,439
Speaker 1: Watch lectures on Yale right now, they're doing higher criticism.

1584
01:25:38,479 --> 01:25:39,239
They talk about.

1585
01:25:40,039 --> 01:25:42,680
Speaker 2: Recognize your characterization of it. I know what it is,

1586
01:25:43,079 --> 01:25:44,159
but I don't recognize your Do.

1587
01:25:44,279 --> 01:25:46,640
Speaker 1: You accept the documentary hypothesis or the.

1588
01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:50,800
Speaker 2: Approach hypothesis JPD. That's what you mean is still that

1589
01:25:50,960 --> 01:25:54,319
the standard is still accepted as thank.

1590
01:25:54,159 --> 01:25:56,640
Speaker 1: You for admitting what we are. Now do you accept

1591
01:25:56,680 --> 01:26:01,479
this critical approach the books of absolutely? Okay, how do

1592
01:26:01,520 --> 01:26:05,359
you know the revelation of Moses is true in what area?

1593
01:26:05,399 --> 01:26:06,039
In what area? Is not?

1594
01:26:06,840 --> 01:26:11,159
Speaker 2: Excellent question? If I enjoy your attention to the Quran

1595
01:26:11,199 --> 01:26:11,920
which addresses this.

1596
01:26:13,800 --> 01:26:13,920
Speaker 1: Right.

1597
01:26:14,359 --> 01:26:16,279
Speaker 2: But the Koran tells us precisely that what we.

1598
01:26:16,479 --> 01:26:18,279
Speaker 1: Do well the presupposition is the Quran right.

1599
01:26:18,800 --> 01:26:21,000
Speaker 2: The Kuran says that the books of the Christians and

1600
01:26:21,039 --> 01:26:26,039
the Jews have been corrupted, and it says in our

1601
01:26:26,119 --> 01:26:28,600
made as the fifth chapter we have sent down to you.

1602
01:26:28,760 --> 01:26:30,800
This is to Muhammad, the book, this crime in truth,

1603
01:26:31,239 --> 01:26:34,199
confirming the scripture that came before it. This is talking

1604
01:26:34,239 --> 01:26:38,600
about the torahm Ninjel and Mouhamin. Now this means Mahamed

1605
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:41,039
is an Arabic word which means that which testifies the

1606
01:26:41,159 --> 01:26:44,840
truth that is still therein and falsifies the falsehood that

1607
01:26:45,000 --> 01:26:48,840
is added therein. So we use the so judge among them.

1608
01:26:48,880 --> 01:26:52,039
It says, by what Alah has revealed, meaning the Quran,

1609
01:26:52,199 --> 01:26:54,880
and following up their vain desires, diverging away from the

1610
01:26:54,960 --> 01:26:57,800
truth that has come to you. So the texts have

1611
01:26:57,880 --> 01:27:01,199
been corrupted. This is the only reliable guide.

1612
01:27:01,279 --> 01:27:03,039
Speaker 1: No, no, you don't know that the text have been

1613
01:27:03,079 --> 01:27:06,479
corrupted yet unless it's on the base of the presubposition.

1614
01:27:06,560 --> 01:27:08,840
What the Chrin says. You think the texts are corupted.

1615
01:27:08,640 --> 01:27:11,720
Speaker 2: Right, But I believe, But I believe objective scholarship confirms

1616
01:27:11,760 --> 01:27:12,479
it abundantly.

1617
01:27:13,239 --> 01:27:15,600
Speaker 1: Right. But the objective scholarship is interpreted in terms of

1618
01:27:15,600 --> 01:27:18,199
the presubpositions. The ultimate authority for you, which is the Kuran.

1619
01:27:18,600 --> 01:27:20,760
And what I'm asking you is when you read Moses,

1620
01:27:21,199 --> 01:27:23,720
that text itself doesn't tell you which verses are corrupted

1621
01:27:23,760 --> 01:27:26,640
and which words which ones aren't. What is your basis?

1622
01:27:26,840 --> 01:27:30,359
What is the ultimate authority in terms of that critical

1623
01:27:30,399 --> 01:27:33,039
approach to know when it is the word of God

1624
01:27:33,159 --> 01:27:34,760
in those texts in the Torah, and when it.

1625
01:27:34,800 --> 01:27:38,119
Speaker 2: Isn't as Muslims are. The crime itself makes clear that

1626
01:27:39,359 --> 01:27:42,119
that the Kuran itself is the discriminates. If you like,

1627
01:27:42,199 --> 01:27:44,640
it's it's the quality control. It's used jargon.

1628
01:27:44,720 --> 01:27:47,680
Speaker 1: I understand that, But when you read through Genesis, how

1629
01:27:47,720 --> 01:27:49,000
do you know which ones are through and which ones

1630
01:27:49,000 --> 01:27:49,319
are false?

1631
01:27:50,039 --> 01:27:52,840
Speaker 2: I'm trying to explain. The quality control is the revelation

1632
01:27:52,920 --> 01:27:55,800
that is the Koran. So if, for example, the Bible

1633
01:27:55,920 --> 01:27:59,960
says something that is contrary to the Koran, say, for example,

1634
01:28:00,039 --> 01:28:03,000
but it says Jesus God, then we know that's not

1635
01:28:03,079 --> 01:28:05,720
from God because it contradicts God's revelation.

1636
01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:11,880
Speaker 1: Right, So the ultimate authority, the presuppositional grounding for your

1637
01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:16,079
paradigm is the corona. I understand that, but you're not answering.

1638
01:28:16,319 --> 01:28:18,399
You're not answering the question of how it is that

1639
01:28:18,479 --> 01:28:20,399
you delineate as you read through because you can say

1640
01:28:20,439 --> 01:28:23,640
something simple like that, well, if it could, if it contradicts, Okay,

1641
01:28:24,279 --> 01:28:26,399
but what a question is?

1642
01:28:26,479 --> 01:28:28,359
Speaker 2: You know, I don't actually understand what you're trying to

1643
01:28:28,359 --> 01:28:30,239
say that. If I mis understood you, what is your

1644
01:28:30,279 --> 01:28:30,760
point again?

1645
01:28:31,960 --> 01:28:35,159
Speaker 1: You have no way that that saying that itself. I

1646
01:28:35,359 --> 01:28:38,760
understand what you're saying that itself doesn't tell you as

1647
01:28:38,800 --> 01:28:42,039
you read through the Old Testament which things are corrupted

1648
01:28:42,159 --> 01:28:43,079
and aren't.

1649
01:28:43,960 --> 01:28:45,800
Speaker 2: Sorry, I now grasp what you're saying.

1650
01:28:45,880 --> 01:28:49,000
Speaker 1: Jay. For example, when Leviticus calls for the erection of

1651
01:28:49,119 --> 01:28:51,920
a temple and a temple service, but.

1652
01:28:52,319 --> 01:28:57,560
Speaker 2: The churn is not a detailed exegesis of current Old Testament.

1653
01:28:57,800 --> 01:29:00,920
So you're right. But but and when? Because it is corruptive,

1654
01:29:01,000 --> 01:29:03,119
Muslims don't usually go to the Bible because it doesn't

1655
01:29:03,159 --> 01:29:07,000
give undistorted truth. But no, you are right, But when

1656
01:29:07,039 --> 01:29:10,239
it makes claims when we're told when Christians do you

1657
01:29:10,479 --> 01:29:14,319
say X, and it clearly explicitly contradicts the chrome, then

1658
01:29:14,399 --> 01:29:17,479
we know that X is wrong. It's not from God,

1659
01:29:17,560 --> 01:29:19,640
so it has that value. And I give you one example.

1660
01:29:19,720 --> 01:29:22,199
If New Testament says Jesus is God, then we know

1661
01:29:22,439 --> 01:29:25,159
islamically that that is false because it contradicts the clear

1662
01:29:25,239 --> 01:29:26,800
teachings of God's revelation.

1663
01:29:26,520 --> 01:29:28,920
Speaker 1: In the crime. But this is begging the question, because

1664
01:29:28,960 --> 01:29:30,680
I'm asking you, as you're reading through, say a little

1665
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:32,319
Viticus or any of those texts, how do you know

1666
01:29:32,439 --> 01:29:34,079
when it's corrupted and when it's not? You say, well,

1667
01:29:35,439 --> 01:29:37,720
it intradicts that when it contradicts the corn.

1668
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:37,920
Speaker 2: Ok.

1669
01:29:38,319 --> 01:29:40,479
Speaker 1: So let's give let's give an example where we see

1670
01:29:40,800 --> 01:29:44,399
an angel lord or a theophany being worshiped. So basically

1671
01:29:44,479 --> 01:29:46,600
what happens is that, ultimately you would say that that's

1672
01:29:46,600 --> 01:29:49,640
perhaps a corruption. Right, if we see the angel lord,

1673
01:29:49,680 --> 01:29:52,680
a distinct entity, a distinct distinct person from God, the

1674
01:29:52,720 --> 01:29:56,600
Father or God being worshiped, that would perhaps be some corruption. Well,

1675
01:29:56,680 --> 01:29:58,640
it turns out we find a lot of those. So

1676
01:29:58,880 --> 01:30:01,159
in other words, what happens is starts stacking up a

1677
01:30:01,199 --> 01:30:02,439
lot of these corruptions.

1678
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:04,359
Speaker 2: And so there's a lot of coruptions.

1679
01:30:04,399 --> 01:30:07,319
Speaker 1: So I know that you believe that, but I'm saying

1680
01:30:07,399 --> 01:30:10,720
it's arbitrary. It's totally at hoc. And so when I

1681
01:30:10,880 --> 01:30:13,319
when we come to the specifics, when we come to

1682
01:30:13,319 --> 01:30:15,640
the specifics and you start talking about how you know

1683
01:30:15,800 --> 01:30:18,880
when and where you appeal to liberal higher critics, you

1684
01:30:19,000 --> 01:30:21,520
don't do that about your religion. I don't believe operate,

1685
01:30:21,680 --> 01:30:23,720
You don't operates as an objective.

1686
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:27,960
Speaker 2: I reject this characterization of the liberal I think that's

1687
01:30:28,319 --> 01:30:31,880
polemical and tendentious. I don't believe it's an authentic, accurate

1688
01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:33,960
way of describing this scholars that I respect.

1689
01:30:34,039 --> 01:30:36,239
Speaker 1: Do you think that that in the year one thousand

1690
01:30:36,439 --> 01:30:39,720
there were Bellhausen style critics that were doing that kind

1691
01:30:39,720 --> 01:30:40,359
of analysis.

1692
01:30:40,520 --> 01:30:43,000
Speaker 2: Well, of course, val Housen was born in the nineteenth century, right,

1693
01:30:43,920 --> 01:30:45,840
And I think coming back to this, Vale has point.

1694
01:30:45,960 --> 01:30:46,399
Speaker 1: I think.

1695
01:30:48,239 --> 01:30:51,640
Speaker 2: That scholarship doesn't slafishly follow the Belle Housen if you

1696
01:30:51,760 --> 01:30:52,800
read contemportary.

1697
01:30:52,399 --> 01:30:54,680
Speaker 1: What I'm saying is that you don't know anything about

1698
01:30:55,039 --> 01:30:58,319
the type. You don't know anything about the Torah because

1699
01:30:58,439 --> 01:31:00,880
this standard that you've given doesn't tell you when and

1700
01:31:01,000 --> 01:31:02,960
where it is and is not the word of God.

1701
01:31:03,039 --> 01:31:05,359
Because I can start I can start stacking up things,

1702
01:31:05,439 --> 01:31:07,399
and what's left to you is less and less and

1703
01:31:07,520 --> 01:31:10,159
less and less. In the to itself there would actually

1704
01:31:10,199 --> 01:31:11,920
be revelation from God on your view.

1705
01:31:12,239 --> 01:31:14,520
Speaker 2: Well, what I recommend you no giving it another exament.

1706
01:31:14,560 --> 01:31:16,960
I mean, obviously perhaps haven't read the crime from cover

1707
01:31:17,079 --> 01:31:19,880
to cover, but the portrayal for it. Give me another

1708
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:24,960
example of the prophets of God are often as discreditable, drunken,

1709
01:31:25,880 --> 01:31:29,319
sexually immoral, murderers and so on. Is a portrayal that

1710
01:31:29,439 --> 01:31:33,119
is rejected in the chrome. Well, okay, good, So that

1711
01:31:33,199 --> 01:31:36,479
That would be another area where where the defamation of

1712
01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:41,039
God's messages and prophets is false. Historically, it doesn't go

1713
01:31:41,319 --> 01:31:44,720
a verse by verse exegesis, but it gives these broad

1714
01:31:44,800 --> 01:31:49,520
indications that certain certain views are part of a corrupted,

1715
01:31:49,840 --> 01:31:52,079
falsified narrative and it caused people.

1716
01:31:52,159 --> 01:31:53,840
Speaker 1: But you have no way of knowing when and where

1717
01:31:54,199 --> 01:31:58,560
you can start listing all these arbitrary things. But less

1718
01:31:58,880 --> 01:32:01,479
less and less so. You don't have access to Moses.

1719
01:32:01,520 --> 01:32:03,720
You don't have access to the Torah. All you have

1720
01:32:04,159 --> 01:32:07,479
is the lens of the Qur'an to sell things. That's

1721
01:32:07,520 --> 01:32:09,760
why you're going to the higher critics. And they are liberal.

1722
01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:12,319
What do you mean they don't believe in Yes they are.

1723
01:32:12,399 --> 01:32:14,399
They don't believe in the doctorate of inspiration that the

1724
01:32:14,479 --> 01:32:18,800
church of the first thousand years, No, they don't. Raymond

1725
01:32:18,800 --> 01:32:21,760
Brown does not believe in the inherancy of scriptures. You

1726
01:32:21,840 --> 01:32:22,479
know he doesn't.

1727
01:32:22,880 --> 01:32:23,399
Speaker 3: Can I can? I?

1728
01:32:23,680 --> 01:32:26,000
Speaker 2: Okay, this is obviously a subject you feel very passionate about,

1729
01:32:26,039 --> 01:32:28,359
and I all I can say is I disagree the

1730
01:32:28,439 --> 01:32:32,279
scholars that I know it read these topic.

1731
01:32:32,399 --> 01:32:34,079
Speaker 1: You know, Raymond Brown doesn't believe in Errancy.

1732
01:32:34,239 --> 01:32:37,439
Speaker 2: Raymond Bound died in the nineteen nineties. So and he

1733
01:32:37,680 --> 01:32:40,119
you know, when I met him at Oxford, he certainly

1734
01:32:40,159 --> 01:32:43,279
believed in the Trinity, he believed in the incarnation, he

1735
01:32:43,399 --> 01:32:44,720
believed in the thinkings.

1736
01:32:44,359 --> 01:32:44,840
Speaker 1: Of the church.

1737
01:32:45,079 --> 01:32:47,479
Speaker 2: So he was not an unbeliever as you have. You

1738
01:32:47,600 --> 01:32:50,520
have very as you have resulted him actually or blessed memory,

1739
01:32:50,560 --> 01:32:54,199
because he was a very distinguished scholar of John's gospel.

1740
01:32:54,439 --> 01:32:58,439
Speaker 1: Nobody cares about distinguished scholarship. That's not what the appeal

1741
01:32:58,479 --> 01:33:00,680
to authority is. Are you aware of this this fallacy?

1742
01:33:01,119 --> 01:33:02,840
Speaker 2: Right, I'm not appealing. I'm telling you that the man

1743
01:33:03,119 --> 01:33:07,079
that you're mistaken about, the man who did proclaim his

1744
01:33:07,239 --> 01:33:10,640
Christian faith, you seem to be dissing him quite powerfully.

1745
01:33:10,640 --> 01:33:11,439
And I find that okay.

1746
01:33:11,479 --> 01:33:14,439
Speaker 1: So it's Hans skill Christian.

1747
01:33:15,439 --> 01:33:18,800
Speaker 2: Characteristic to speak so badly about a fellow Christian. Actually,

1748
01:33:18,840 --> 01:33:19,920
I think that's quite This is.

1749
01:33:19,920 --> 01:33:21,520
Speaker 1: A tactic where you're trying to make me look like

1750
01:33:21,600 --> 01:33:24,279
a bad man. Now we don't have a problem delineating

1751
01:33:24,279 --> 01:33:25,439
who's a heretic and who's.

1752
01:33:25,239 --> 01:33:28,399
Speaker 2: Not well using that language. Again, I didn't realize you

1753
01:33:28,439 --> 01:33:32,359
were so conservative, shall we say, about matters, But I

1754
01:33:32,399 --> 01:33:35,319
just wanted to correct one other thing about my alleged

1755
01:33:35,399 --> 01:33:38,039
inconsistency about the predictions of the Messia and the Old Testament.

1756
01:33:38,039 --> 01:33:40,439
I was very careful when I said that I have

1757
01:33:40,560 --> 01:33:44,000
no problem with the Masonic predictions in the in the Bible,

1758
01:33:44,239 --> 01:33:47,359
in the Psalms and so on. But there's no evidence

1759
01:33:47,399 --> 01:33:50,399
at all that I'm aware that the Psalmists predict the

1760
01:33:50,520 --> 01:33:55,000
death and resurrection of the Messiah, or anyone talks about

1761
01:33:55,039 --> 01:33:58,359
the incarnation of God as something that is to come.

1762
01:33:58,760 --> 01:34:02,880
It's that aspect that I am rejecting. Not that's not inconsistency.

1763
01:34:03,079 --> 01:34:06,279
Yes to the Messiah. No to the alleged predictions of

1764
01:34:06,319 --> 01:34:09,640
death and resurrection incarnation, which do not exist as predictions

1765
01:34:09,680 --> 01:34:11,600
anywhere in the Jewish Bible. In my view, That's what

1766
01:34:11,680 --> 01:34:13,880
I'm getting at, So there's no inconsistency.

1767
01:34:14,920 --> 01:34:16,920
Speaker 1: You did contradict. You said that those texts were not

1768
01:34:17,079 --> 01:34:19,720
about the Messiah. You said that those were texts about David.

1769
01:34:20,359 --> 01:34:21,760
And then you turned around and said, you have no

1770
01:34:21,840 --> 01:34:24,039
problem with a bunch of texts in the Old Testament

1771
01:34:24,079 --> 01:34:26,479
predicting the coming of the Messiah. That's a contradiction.

1772
01:34:26,600 --> 01:34:30,439
Speaker 2: The suffering of the Messiah alleged. The Christian understanding of

1773
01:34:30,479 --> 01:34:33,239
these sixs are not predictive texts of the future Messiah.

1774
01:34:33,239 --> 01:34:36,880
They're talking about David's own suffering, so they're not the predictably.

1775
01:34:36,880 --> 01:34:40,159
Speaker 1: The Jewish view is that those are messianic texts. Whether

1776
01:34:40,239 --> 01:34:42,760
it's back in Genesis predictions of what there was promised

1777
01:34:42,800 --> 01:34:45,920
to Abraham, or whether it's the psalms of David. Jews

1778
01:34:46,039 --> 01:34:49,199
view those as Messianic texts. It's not either or. Your

1779
01:34:49,239 --> 01:34:50,359
whole thing is based on dialect.

1780
01:34:51,119 --> 01:34:54,640
Speaker 2: No Jew, there's no Jew known to history that prior

1781
01:34:54,680 --> 01:34:58,439
to the rise of Christianity ever thought, ever thought that

1782
01:34:58,600 --> 01:35:00,800
the Messiah would die for see and we'll be raised

1783
01:35:00,880 --> 01:35:03,119
dead on the third day. That that that that idea

1784
01:35:03,319 --> 01:35:04,720
only came about with Christianity.

1785
01:35:04,760 --> 01:35:06,760
Speaker 1: And you could prove that's actually not true, that's actually

1786
01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:07,159
not true.

1787
01:35:07,439 --> 01:35:08,119
Speaker 2: I prove me wrong.

1788
01:35:08,199 --> 01:35:14,600
Speaker 1: Now what In fact, I have a friend who's a

1789
01:35:14,640 --> 01:35:17,960
Messianic Jew. His name is Ken. I mean, he has

1790
01:35:18,039 --> 01:35:22,000
a whole book where he delineates the first century expectations,

1791
01:35:22,640 --> 01:35:25,640
Talmutic expectations, Talmutic statements, both helmuts.

1792
01:35:25,960 --> 01:35:28,520
Speaker 2: No I didn't think. I said, there is no a

1793
01:35:28,720 --> 01:35:32,479
prior to the rise of christian Talmud is post is

1794
01:35:33,000 --> 01:35:33,840
not prime.

1795
01:35:34,279 --> 01:35:36,920
Speaker 1: It's a. The Talmud is a collection of documents that

1796
01:35:37,079 --> 01:35:39,279
go back to prior to the time of them. Side.

1797
01:35:39,359 --> 01:35:39,960
Did you not know that?

1798
01:35:42,520 --> 01:35:42,640
Speaker 2: Uh?

1799
01:35:43,319 --> 01:35:46,880
Speaker 1: No, because the yes, it is Jeremiah talks to Ezra,

1800
01:35:47,079 --> 01:35:50,000
and Jeremiah talk about the beginning of that collection.

1801
01:35:49,880 --> 01:35:52,239
Speaker 2: Of One example, give me one example.

1802
01:35:52,520 --> 01:35:54,920
Speaker 1: When Jesus says, you follow the Scribes and the Pharisees

1803
01:35:54,960 --> 01:35:58,560
traditions in Matthew twenty three, when Jesus is rebuking their traditions,

1804
01:35:58,760 --> 01:36:01,159
he's saying the exact same thing Seremiah said about the

1805
01:36:01,239 --> 01:36:03,880
traditions of Describes in the Phariseeason. His day Ezra is

1806
01:36:03,960 --> 01:36:07,199
the beginning of the Phariseeic tradition. No you, oh, you

1807
01:36:07,239 --> 01:36:08,439
don't know. You just lost that point.

1808
01:36:08,840 --> 01:36:10,960
Speaker 2: Nowhere be prior to the rise of Christians.

1809
01:36:11,039 --> 01:36:13,079
Speaker 1: I just gave you a citation for Matthew twenty three.

1810
01:36:13,439 --> 01:36:14,840
Speaker 2: But that is Christianity.

1811
01:36:16,279 --> 01:36:21,960
Speaker 1: That's a first century text that's Reflectingmiah. Is it's Jeremiah, Okay,

1812
01:36:22,000 --> 01:36:24,640
So forget Matthew twenty three. Jeremiah talks about the Describes

1813
01:36:24,680 --> 01:36:25,439
and the Pharisees.

1814
01:36:26,079 --> 01:36:29,760
Speaker 2: Babylonia and Chalmud is not of the Messiah. For sin

1815
01:36:29,920 --> 01:36:32,520
in the Jewish scriptures anywhere to show me. Give me

1816
01:36:32,720 --> 01:36:33,119
a reference.

1817
01:36:33,359 --> 01:36:35,039
Speaker 1: Now you've changed the subject because you got caught on

1818
01:36:35,119 --> 01:36:37,359
that point, right, So you didn't know. You didn't know

1819
01:36:37,560 --> 01:36:40,279
that Ezra is the beginning of the Firistaid tradition, that

1820
01:36:40,359 --> 01:36:42,920
the Talmudic tradition precedes the first century.

1821
01:36:43,159 --> 01:36:46,119
Speaker 2: Can you give me a single quote then, from any

1822
01:36:46,279 --> 01:36:49,000
pre first cent, pre Christian source that talks about the

1823
01:36:49,239 --> 01:36:51,520
Siah dying and rising again on the third day. Just

1824
01:36:51,600 --> 01:36:54,159
give me a source now that's been recorded on YouTube

1825
01:36:54,279 --> 01:36:57,800
now that I can study. Actually, give me a on YouTube.

1826
01:36:57,800 --> 01:36:59,960
Now what do you mean, Well, just give me a reference,

1827
01:37:00,279 --> 01:37:02,600
because you allege that I'm wrong. So I'm asking you

1828
01:37:02,720 --> 01:37:06,960
to produce evidence any Christian statement from a Jew that

1829
01:37:07,079 --> 01:37:08,239
said the Messiah.

1830
01:37:07,840 --> 01:37:11,119
Speaker 1: Will come and Joah six six.

1831
01:37:12,079 --> 01:37:14,000
Speaker 2: Let me let me look at it, because let me

1832
01:37:14,000 --> 01:37:15,000
look at Let me look at it. I want to

1833
01:37:15,000 --> 01:37:16,399
look at it up. Now I'm going to find it's

1834
01:37:16,399 --> 01:37:18,119
a Times book towards the end here we go is

1835
01:37:18,239 --> 01:37:18,760
Zia chapter.

1836
01:37:18,800 --> 01:37:22,399
Speaker 1: What's saying Hoseah six talks about on the third day

1837
01:37:22,680 --> 01:37:23,560
he will raise us up?

1838
01:37:23,880 --> 01:37:25,560
Speaker 2: Let me let me just look at it. What fverse

1839
01:37:25,560 --> 01:37:26,560
because it's quite a few verses.

1840
01:37:27,199 --> 01:37:27,680
Speaker 1: One and two.

1841
01:37:28,760 --> 01:37:30,840
Speaker 2: Okay, let me so come. I'm just gonna read it

1842
01:37:31,119 --> 01:37:33,239
from the Bible. Here, come, and let us return to

1843
01:37:33,359 --> 01:37:37,159
the Lord. For he for it is he who has torn,

1844
01:37:37,640 --> 01:37:40,319
and he will hear us. He has struck, He has

1845
01:37:40,359 --> 01:37:43,560
struck down, and he will bind us up. After two

1846
01:37:43,680 --> 01:37:45,960
days he will revive us. On the third day he

1847
01:37:46,000 --> 01:37:49,000
will raise us up that we may live before him.

1848
01:37:49,680 --> 01:37:51,359
Where does it mentioned a Messiah?

1849
01:37:52,079 --> 01:37:56,279
Speaker 1: That's a Messianic prophecy. The whole book is if you

1850
01:37:56,279 --> 01:37:58,359
don't understand the Old Testament, you don't understand that those

1851
01:37:58,399 --> 01:38:01,520
are all predictions of the coming in themself. Guess what

1852
01:38:01,760 --> 01:38:05,279
the Jews view that? As the Jews view those Texas.

1853
01:38:05,000 --> 01:38:09,159
Speaker 2: And Messiana context. The preceding chapter is the impending Judgment

1854
01:38:09,199 --> 01:38:13,199
on Israel. This is talking about Israel, not about a feuture.

1855
01:38:13,600 --> 01:38:15,960
Speaker 1: Did you know that in the Gospel of Matthew, And

1856
01:38:15,960 --> 01:38:18,800
if you read Matthew twenty three towards the end, finish

1857
01:38:19,199 --> 01:38:21,359
In the Matthew twenty three towards the end, Jesus says

1858
01:38:21,479 --> 01:38:24,439
that in the first century upon the Jews of his

1859
01:38:24,640 --> 01:38:27,319
day would come the vengeance written of in all the

1860
01:38:27,439 --> 01:38:31,800
prophets from Able to Zechariah. So all of those descriptions

1861
01:38:31,840 --> 01:38:35,720
that are about the destruction of Israel, the First Temple

1862
01:38:35,760 --> 01:38:38,159
when it was destroyed by the Babylonians. That's a type

1863
01:38:38,199 --> 01:38:40,239
of the destruction of the Temple in seventy eighty. The

1864
01:38:40,319 --> 01:38:43,479
New Testament makes it abundantly clear Jesus is saying that

1865
01:38:43,720 --> 01:38:45,479
in these text and by the way, in Liu twenty four,

1866
01:38:45,560 --> 01:38:47,560
Jesus says that all of these Old Testament predictions are

1867
01:38:47,560 --> 01:38:49,479
about Him, the very thing that you can't seem to

1868
01:38:49,520 --> 01:38:51,600
grasp about how to read the Old Testament. In Liu

1869
01:38:51,720 --> 01:38:54,119
twenty four, it says Jesus opened the minds of the

1870
01:38:54,159 --> 01:38:57,159
disciples to understand all things that were written about Him

1871
01:38:57,239 --> 01:38:58,720
and the Law, the prophets, and Moses.

1872
01:38:58,800 --> 01:39:02,239
Speaker 2: I'm looking about pre christ texts. Your quotation ofbout Isaiah

1873
01:39:02,359 --> 01:39:05,479
is a pre Christian text reading context of the impending

1874
01:39:05,560 --> 01:39:08,800
judgment Israel and impenitence of Israel. It's all about Israel.

1875
01:39:08,800 --> 01:39:11,359
It's not about a messiety. It says, come, let us

1876
01:39:11,560 --> 01:39:13,039
return to the Lord, for.

1877
01:39:13,159 --> 01:39:15,880
Speaker 1: This happened in the first century bro seventy eighty.

1878
01:39:16,520 --> 01:39:20,399
Speaker 2: No, Nojoseiah was a Jewish prophet long before Jesus.

1879
01:39:20,520 --> 01:39:22,479
Speaker 1: Topology is do you understand this right, So.

1880
01:39:23,079 --> 01:39:25,159
Speaker 2: This is not about prophecy. This is not a prophecy

1881
01:39:25,199 --> 01:39:27,239
of Jesus. I'm sorry it does not pass the test

1882
01:39:27,479 --> 01:39:29,119
of historical credibility.

1883
01:39:29,199 --> 01:39:30,119
Speaker 1: You don't make that test.

1884
01:39:30,960 --> 01:39:34,000
Speaker 2: Well, I'm reading in context. It's ex Jesus. I'm just

1885
01:39:34,039 --> 01:39:35,239
getting honest to Jesus.

1886
01:39:35,920 --> 01:39:40,000
Speaker 1: Even Jewish ex Jesus of their texts understands a double sense.

1887
01:39:40,039 --> 01:39:44,520
They understand that prophecies. For example, Daniel says that he finished.

1888
01:39:44,800 --> 01:39:47,920
Daniel says that in his day he read the writings

1889
01:39:47,960 --> 01:39:51,800
of Jeremiah and the Babylonian Captivity to understand what would

1890
01:39:51,840 --> 01:39:55,319
be mirrored in his day. So the texts themselves in

1891
01:39:55,359 --> 01:39:58,319
the Old Testament teach typology. They teach that they are

1892
01:39:58,439 --> 01:40:01,680
mirrored in future fulfillment. You didn't know that. You thought

1893
01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:05,640
that it's only the historical exegesis. But the Jewish writings

1894
01:40:05,720 --> 01:40:09,560
themselves say that the historical setting is a prediction of

1895
01:40:09,640 --> 01:40:12,720
becoming Messiah. You already admitted this when you talked about

1896
01:40:12,760 --> 01:40:14,279
the fact that you don't have a problem with the

1897
01:40:14,319 --> 01:40:16,960
Old Testament prophets predicting the coming of the Messiah. So

1898
01:40:17,079 --> 01:40:20,000
look how arbitrary this is. You're all over the place

1899
01:40:20,159 --> 01:40:23,199
there's higher critics over here, higher criticism over here, and

1900
01:40:23,279 --> 01:40:26,359
it's faith. But over here, I will arbitrarily take all

1901
01:40:26,439 --> 01:40:27,680
of the profits and what they say.

1902
01:40:27,880 --> 01:40:31,600
Speaker 2: It's completely arbitrary respond to this. It's not an arbitrary

1903
01:40:31,640 --> 01:40:34,920
to notice in its historical context that Hoseiah six is

1904
01:40:35,000 --> 01:40:37,319
not talking about a future person, but about it.

1905
01:40:37,479 --> 01:40:39,840
Speaker 1: I didn't deny the historical context. I said it was

1906
01:40:39,880 --> 01:40:42,119
a type you did not understand the types.

1907
01:40:41,880 --> 01:40:45,119
Speaker 2: Of historically later death and resurrection in there.

1908
01:40:46,279 --> 01:40:48,319
Speaker 1: You don't get to set the standard of of what

1909
01:40:48,479 --> 01:40:51,000
the litmus tests is of how to determine like it

1910
01:40:51,159 --> 01:40:53,640
has to say this in the passage. Right. I already

1911
01:40:53,680 --> 01:40:56,039
refuted this earlier. I already refuted this earlier when I

1912
01:40:56,119 --> 01:40:59,880
pointed out, look, does Abraham talk about the Mosaic law.

1913
01:41:00,079 --> 01:41:02,159
That's like saying, well, since Abraham doesn't say that there

1914
01:41:02,159 --> 01:41:04,319
will be a mosaic law, I don't accept anything after

1915
01:41:04,479 --> 01:41:06,720
the time of Abraham. That's a ridiculous argument.

1916
01:41:07,159 --> 01:41:09,760
Speaker 2: If I refer to the Jewish Study Bible by the

1917
01:41:09,800 --> 01:41:12,640
world's top Jewish scholars, and we look at Hoseiah chapter six,

1918
01:41:12,720 --> 01:41:14,680
would you be interested know what they say about this passage.

1919
01:41:14,800 --> 01:41:16,800
Speaker 1: I have the Jewish Study Bible. I've read it. I

1920
01:41:16,920 --> 01:41:19,119
know that they don't believe that. All of those texts

1921
01:41:19,159 --> 01:41:22,079
are talking about them society, but even the Messianic text

1922
01:41:22,119 --> 01:41:23,520
where they do think it's messianic.

1923
01:41:24,000 --> 01:41:26,600
Speaker 2: No, these are expert Jews talking about their own scripture.

1924
01:41:26,640 --> 01:41:28,920
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. All you do is appeal to unbelievers.

1925
01:41:28,960 --> 01:41:31,079
Speaker 2: Bro, these are not unbelievers. They believe.

1926
01:41:31,239 --> 01:41:33,560
Speaker 1: These are unbelievers. They don't believe in Christianity.

1927
01:41:33,720 --> 01:41:35,600
Speaker 2: You interested in what they have to say about this passage?

1928
01:41:36,239 --> 01:41:38,680
Speaker 1: You know what? I know what the Jewish extra duces are.

1929
01:41:38,720 --> 01:41:40,880
That passage is what I know that they don't believe

1930
01:41:40,880 --> 01:41:44,479
it's messianic. I was making the point that in other texts,

1931
01:41:44,800 --> 01:41:48,199
like the Dividic texts, they are saying it's messianic.

1932
01:41:48,560 --> 01:41:52,840
Speaker 2: Would remember we talked about the death and Resurrection being

1933
01:41:52,960 --> 01:41:56,199
four card predicted as claimed by Paul in the Old Testament.

1934
01:41:56,279 --> 01:41:58,319
It's the first passage you've given me, and it doesn't

1935
01:41:58,439 --> 01:42:00,079
be honest past the test could have been.

1936
01:42:00,279 --> 01:42:02,439
Speaker 1: You don't make that test. You don't make that test.

1937
01:42:02,600 --> 01:42:05,640
You and unbelieving people don't set up what the test is?

1938
01:42:06,119 --> 01:42:08,720
Not unbelieved the authority to do that? Who does?

1939
01:42:08,920 --> 01:42:09,760
Speaker 2: The Orthodox Church?

1940
01:42:09,800 --> 01:42:12,279
Speaker 1: The Church correct because it's a self. It's a self.

1941
01:42:12,640 --> 01:42:15,199
Speaker 2: I'm not a Christian. I don't believe in your church.

1942
01:42:15,439 --> 01:42:16,119
Speaker 1: I know you don't.

1943
01:42:16,640 --> 01:42:19,439
Speaker 2: So if I'm looking at objective exte Jesus, there.

1944
01:42:19,399 --> 01:42:22,600
Speaker 1: Is no objective exto Jesus, there is no. There's not

1945
01:42:23,680 --> 01:42:24,399
I believe there is.

1946
01:42:25,039 --> 01:42:27,479
Speaker 2: Jay. Can I explain to you what I think objectives is?

1947
01:42:27,840 --> 01:42:28,880
Just let me speak for a second.

1948
01:42:29,039 --> 01:42:32,479
Speaker 1: You cited Thomas Kuhne in paradigms. You know that you

1949
01:42:32,560 --> 01:42:34,239
know that we read things for a paradigm, so you

1950
01:42:34,439 --> 01:42:36,439
know there's not objective.

1951
01:42:36,039 --> 01:42:38,880
Speaker 2: Exegu Jay, Okay, so let me expect it.

1952
01:42:39,039 --> 01:42:41,239
Speaker 1: You cite Thomas Kune in your debate on paradigms.

1953
01:42:41,680 --> 01:42:42,520
Speaker 2: Will do you let me speak?

1954
01:42:42,840 --> 01:42:45,279
Speaker 1: You cite Thomas Kune on paradigms in your debate admitting

1955
01:42:45,279 --> 01:42:48,119
that there aren't purely objective exegesies.

1956
01:42:48,239 --> 01:42:50,039
Speaker 2: Will you let me speak, Jay, or you're going to

1957
01:42:50,079 --> 01:42:53,479
shut me down again. Thomas Kuhn was talking about the

1958
01:42:53,600 --> 01:42:55,760
structure that the name of his book is called the

1959
01:42:55,840 --> 01:42:59,880
Structure of Science. I know you know it all, but

1960
01:43:00,199 --> 01:43:03,920
let me explain anyway. He's not talking about biblical exegesis.

1961
01:43:04,000 --> 01:43:07,279
Speaker 1: He's talking about paradigms. Don't you think text, you're reading

1962
01:43:07,319 --> 01:43:08,079
it through your paradigm.

1963
01:43:08,359 --> 01:43:14,199
Speaker 2: He's talking about scientific paradigms with reference to Newton, to Einstein,

1964
01:43:14,279 --> 01:43:16,680
totolemaic cosmology.

1965
01:43:16,600 --> 01:43:20,119
Speaker 1: And scientific when we interpret the world, you're trying to

1966
01:43:20,159 --> 01:43:21,760
do scientific extra Jesus.

1967
01:43:21,720 --> 01:43:23,640
Speaker 2: Talking about the cosmos and physics.

1968
01:43:24,079 --> 01:43:27,439
Speaker 1: It's a paradigm you have different.

1969
01:43:28,720 --> 01:43:31,840
Speaker 2: He was professor at Chicago University of Science.

1970
01:43:33,159 --> 01:43:34,359
Speaker 1: You're trying to do scientific.

1971
01:43:35,600 --> 01:43:37,840
Speaker 2: Now, if if I may speak about this passage, please

1972
01:43:37,880 --> 01:43:40,960
and tell you what I think objective excuses is objective

1973
01:43:41,199 --> 01:43:43,760
ex Jesus, I understand it is when you read a

1974
01:43:43,880 --> 01:43:47,680
passage of the Bible, in this case, in its historical

1975
01:43:47,760 --> 01:43:50,880
and literary context. So we're trying to understand the words

1976
01:43:50,960 --> 01:43:54,119
that being meant for the Hebrew Hebrew writers Hoseiah in

1977
01:43:54,239 --> 01:43:57,720
the context that he wrote them, with reference to the

1978
01:43:57,920 --> 01:43:59,239
other passages, reference to.

1979
01:43:59,319 --> 01:44:03,640
Speaker 1: The time, and we believe in the grammatical historical approach.

1980
01:44:04,359 --> 01:44:07,159
Speaker 2: When we do that with this passage, and I almost

1981
01:44:07,199 --> 01:44:09,039
I'm familiar with this passage in the whole book, there

1982
01:44:09,119 --> 01:44:12,279
is no indication whatsoever of any Christian themes to do

1983
01:44:12,479 --> 01:44:15,760
with the dying and resurrection of Jesus, such as Paul

1984
01:44:15,800 --> 01:44:20,119
claims in one Corinthians, Chapter fifteen, verse three. So I

1985
01:44:20,199 --> 01:44:22,159
will ask you perhaps to try another verge. Is another

1986
01:44:22,159 --> 01:44:23,800
passage you can give me that actually does talk about

1987
01:44:23,840 --> 01:44:25,479
these subjects that Paul mentions.

1988
01:44:25,800 --> 01:44:27,840
Speaker 1: Well, no, because what's going to happen is the exact

1989
01:44:27,880 --> 01:44:31,279
same approach is no, no, no, let me finish. So

1990
01:44:31,359 --> 01:44:32,880
what you're going to do is you're going to say

1991
01:44:32,920 --> 01:44:35,319
that that's a Christian reading. Can you not hear that

1992
01:44:35,359 --> 01:44:37,640
I'm saying that, yes, it's a Christian reading? And can

1993
01:44:37,720 --> 01:44:40,159
you not hear that I said it's a mirrored fulfillment? Okay,

1994
01:44:40,239 --> 01:44:42,880
So I don't deny that a grammatical historical context of

1995
01:44:42,960 --> 01:44:45,880
what Hoseah is talking about that's in fact crucial to

1996
01:44:46,000 --> 01:44:49,800
the fulfillment in our view, because it's a mirrored fulfillment.

1997
01:44:50,159 --> 01:44:53,800
Seventy AD is a fulfillment of the destruction that happened

1998
01:44:53,800 --> 01:44:54,840
in five eighty six weeks.

1999
01:44:55,159 --> 01:44:57,920
Speaker 2: This passage has anything to do with the future Messiah

2000
01:44:57,960 --> 01:44:59,800
actually dying on the cross and rising on the third.

2001
01:45:00,720 --> 01:45:03,880
So what do you think, then, saying you accept now

2002
01:45:03,960 --> 01:45:06,079
the historical reading of the text, do you think the

2003
01:45:06,239 --> 01:45:09,560
historical reading of this text suggests at all that a

2004
01:45:09,720 --> 01:45:12,279
future Messiah will die on the cross and rise again

2005
01:45:12,359 --> 01:45:15,640
on the third day, as you, well, can you show

2006
01:45:15,680 --> 01:45:17,560
me where it says that in those.

2007
01:45:17,399 --> 01:45:19,880
Speaker 1: Chapter six Yeah, that's not how you do ex Jesus.

2008
01:45:20,319 --> 01:45:22,000
Speaker 2: Oh, which teach me extra Jesus.

2009
01:45:22,039 --> 01:45:25,399
Speaker 1: Then yeah, because you you in order to have your position,

2010
01:45:25,520 --> 01:45:29,199
it has to only be the grammatical historical context. And

2011
01:45:29,479 --> 01:45:31,600
as we see, for example, from the lifting up of

2012
01:45:31,640 --> 01:45:35,319
the serpent on the pole, which Nicodemus is unclear about,

2013
01:45:35,359 --> 01:45:37,319
and Jesus says in John three to Nicodemus that the

2014
01:45:37,359 --> 01:45:39,359
son of Man will be lifted up just as Moses

2015
01:45:39,439 --> 01:45:41,880
lifted up the bronze serpent. As many people point out

2016
01:45:41,960 --> 01:45:45,000
to you in the debates, that's called typology, it's called

2017
01:45:45,079 --> 01:45:50,159
a mirroring. Jewish exegesis already had this concept. It wasn't

2018
01:45:50,199 --> 01:45:53,199
invented by Christians. Okay, So the way that we're going

2019
01:45:53,279 --> 01:45:56,800
to read the text is through our presuppositions, in our paradigms.

2020
01:45:56,960 --> 01:45:59,600
You know this because you cite Thomas Kuhn. You're trying

2021
01:45:59,640 --> 01:46:03,399
to do scientific exo Jesus. So it's not different to

2022
01:46:03,439 --> 01:46:06,560
appeal to Thomas Kewne because it's still paradematic the way

2023
01:46:06,600 --> 01:46:08,800
that we interpret these texts. I know that you don't

2024
01:46:08,840 --> 01:46:11,680
believe it's about Jesus. I'm saying that in the Christian worldview,

2025
01:46:11,720 --> 01:46:13,760
in the Christian paradigm, it is about Jesus. It is

2026
01:46:13,800 --> 01:46:17,039
a prediction of the depth on resurrection, because I explained

2027
01:46:17,079 --> 01:46:20,960
it consistently by showing that it is a mirroring of

2028
01:46:21,000 --> 01:46:24,479
the destruction of Jerusalem. So when the minor prophets, for example,

2029
01:46:24,560 --> 01:46:27,159
many of them talk about the destruction of the First

2030
01:46:27,199 --> 01:46:30,159
Temple in five eighty six. Okay, Now when you read Daniel,

2031
01:46:30,159 --> 01:46:32,640
for example, Daniel says in Daniel nine that when the

2032
01:46:32,720 --> 01:46:35,560
Messiah comes, there's going to be an end to the

2033
01:46:36,159 --> 01:46:39,439
temple and grain offerings and sacrifices, because the Messiah will

2034
01:46:39,479 --> 01:46:41,199
come and he will put an end to that. That

2035
01:46:41,319 --> 01:46:44,600
whole first century is the transition period from the Mosaic

2036
01:46:44,720 --> 01:46:48,359
Law into the fulfilling of the prophecies of the Gentiles

2037
01:46:48,399 --> 01:46:51,000
coming into the Kingdom of God, as all those prophets said.

2038
01:46:51,359 --> 01:46:53,560
So that whole transition period from the birth of Christ

2039
01:46:53,920 --> 01:46:56,359
to seventy eighty, it doesn't just end in the resurrection

2040
01:46:56,520 --> 01:46:59,079
or Pentecost or acts. It ends at seventy eighty. That's

2041
01:46:59,159 --> 01:47:01,399
what the apocalypse is about. That's what Luke twenty one

2042
01:47:01,439 --> 01:47:03,880
and Matthew twenty four about that's why Jesus says in

2043
01:47:03,920 --> 01:47:06,079
Matthew twenty three at the end of that chapter that

2044
01:47:06,279 --> 01:47:09,439
all the predictions and the prophets will come upon this generation.

2045
01:47:09,840 --> 01:47:13,680
So that means this prophecy here in Amos will come

2046
01:47:13,840 --> 01:47:17,399
upon this generation when he talks about the covenant curses

2047
01:47:17,520 --> 01:47:20,920
of Israel Deuteronomy twenty eight, which lists all these covenant

2048
01:47:20,960 --> 01:47:24,880
curses and Amos and Hoseiah talking about the divorce of

2049
01:47:25,199 --> 01:47:28,920
literal flesh Israel in that covenantal transaction. That's what happened

2050
01:47:28,960 --> 01:47:31,319
when they rejected the Messiah and Jesus. As he says

2051
01:47:31,319 --> 01:47:33,680
in the Peri Wicked bind Dressers, the kingdom will go

2052
01:47:34,119 --> 01:47:36,840
to the Gentiles because the Jews have rejected it. That's

2053
01:47:36,880 --> 01:47:39,279
why it was destroyed in seventy eighty. It was the

2054
01:47:39,319 --> 01:47:41,960
fulfillment not just of what Luke twenty one and Matthew

2055
01:47:42,000 --> 01:47:44,119
twenty four said. It was a fulfillment of all of

2056
01:47:44,159 --> 01:47:48,119
these predictions back to the Mosaic Deuteronomy twenty eight Covenant curses.

2057
01:47:48,479 --> 01:47:51,239
And you say, well, that's crazy, that's not what we

2058
01:47:51,319 --> 01:47:53,279
do now. No. In fact, if you read the Apocalypse

2059
01:47:53,560 --> 01:47:56,239
in chapters two and three, when Jesus speaks to the churches,

2060
01:47:57,119 --> 01:48:00,920
he it promises them curses and blessings, just like it's

2061
01:48:00,960 --> 01:48:04,840
no different. We don't deny covenant blessings and curses, but

2062
01:48:04,960 --> 01:48:07,079
we see a unity of fulfillment from the time of

2063
01:48:07,159 --> 01:48:10,199
Genesis even into Moses up to the coming of the Messiah.

2064
01:48:10,640 --> 01:48:13,439
And all I've seen from you throughout this discussion is

2065
01:48:13,640 --> 01:48:17,000
all over the place. You want higher criticism and complete

2066
01:48:17,119 --> 01:48:19,560
doubt of the scriptures when it suits you. But if

2067
01:48:19,600 --> 01:48:22,720
we were to turn that higher critical approach upon your book,

2068
01:48:23,399 --> 01:48:25,399
or if we were to point out that it's inconsistent

2069
01:48:25,399 --> 01:48:28,399
when you arbitrarily pick which verses in the Torah or

2070
01:48:28,439 --> 01:48:31,920
in the prophets you do accept right, it's totally arbitrary.

2071
01:48:32,039 --> 01:48:34,039
So what do we go back to? It goes back

2072
01:48:34,039 --> 01:48:36,199
to your presubositions of the Koran. So I want to

2073
01:48:36,279 --> 01:48:39,039
ask you on the presubositions of the Koran. And it's

2074
01:48:39,319 --> 01:48:42,520
you said, the literal actual speech of God himself. Are

2075
01:48:42,600 --> 01:48:46,560
the words in the Koran a reflection of God himself?

2076
01:48:46,680 --> 01:48:48,640
Or are they the words of God? In other words,

2077
01:48:48,680 --> 01:48:50,000
the Koran that I hold in my hand, is that

2078
01:48:50,199 --> 01:48:52,039
literally the incarnate words of God.

2079
01:48:54,399 --> 01:48:59,159
Speaker 2: Okay, coming back then to Hoseiah chapter six, I just

2080
01:48:59,239 --> 01:49:02,680
wanted to give you the testimony of the Jewish study

2081
01:49:02,720 --> 01:49:05,479
by It is published by Oxford University Press, and it

2082
01:49:05,640 --> 01:49:09,920
is seen as the best critical scholarly.

2083
01:49:12,600 --> 01:49:14,359
Speaker 1: As the Jewish study that was supposed to bring.

2084
01:49:14,640 --> 01:49:18,359
Speaker 2: Jewish scholars say that is because I want to show

2085
01:49:18,359 --> 01:49:21,000
you this is what Jewish got. The best Jewish scholarship says,

2086
01:49:22,279 --> 01:49:23,880
because well, because.

2087
01:49:24,600 --> 01:49:27,399
Speaker 1: I'm going to pull out the Buddhist, the Buddhist approach

2088
01:49:27,520 --> 01:49:29,000
to Islam and.

2089
01:49:28,960 --> 01:49:33,119
Speaker 2: The current because let's look at the Buddhist explained. If

2090
01:49:33,159 --> 01:49:37,520
you didn't, the Jewish scriptures are the Jewish people's Bible.

2091
01:49:38,239 --> 01:49:42,079
The Jewish scholars themselves have a word to say about

2092
01:49:42,119 --> 01:49:45,239
their own scriptures, and what they say about Hosea chapter

2093
01:49:45,399 --> 01:49:49,600
six is important because they have all they have a voice,

2094
01:49:49,720 --> 01:49:50,159
it's their.

2095
01:49:50,119 --> 01:49:52,640
Speaker 1: Bible, and they don't believe in.

2096
01:49:54,399 --> 01:49:58,479
Speaker 2: Forty so one one and forty of the of this

2097
01:49:58,880 --> 01:50:04,039
esteemed public ca And you look at you love to

2098
01:50:04,159 --> 01:50:05,159
mock learning, and.

2099
01:50:06,159 --> 01:50:08,319
Speaker 1: You don't know what fallacies are you've never heard of,

2100
01:50:08,399 --> 01:50:09,520
like a basic fallacy of.

2101
01:50:09,520 --> 01:50:13,199
Speaker 2: A there's no fallacy in pointing out that appeal.

2102
01:50:12,960 --> 01:50:14,600
Speaker 1: To authority as a fallacy. Do you think appeal to

2103
01:50:14,640 --> 01:50:15,439
authority is a fallacy?

2104
01:50:15,680 --> 01:50:19,680
Speaker 2: It's not. It's not a fallacy. Can give an example.

2105
01:50:20,359 --> 01:50:22,199
Let you go to example, I go to my doctor.

2106
01:50:22,279 --> 01:50:25,039
Speaker 1: I haven't never had a basic logic class. You don't

2107
01:50:25,039 --> 01:50:26,640
think an appeal to authority is a fallacy.

2108
01:50:27,279 --> 01:50:29,000
Speaker 2: This is a silly argument. Let me explain why.

2109
01:50:29,119 --> 01:50:31,840
Speaker 1: No, it's not, and authority is a fallacy.

2110
01:50:32,239 --> 01:50:35,479
Speaker 2: You can let me speak. You see, you've lost the debate.

2111
01:50:37,520 --> 01:50:40,720
The debate as I was saying, No, I hadn't actually

2112
01:50:40,760 --> 01:50:41,319
that you said.

2113
01:50:41,319 --> 01:50:43,039
Speaker 1: Appeal to authority is not a fallacy.

2114
01:50:44,359 --> 01:50:47,279
Speaker 2: It's perfectly valid thing to do on occasions. And I'll

2115
01:50:47,279 --> 01:50:49,159
give an example. If I if I have an illness

2116
01:50:49,520 --> 01:50:51,560
and I go to my doctor and he assures me

2117
01:50:51,680 --> 01:50:54,159
that the illness is an illness X.

2118
01:50:54,199 --> 01:50:56,159
Speaker 1: Okay, but where do you think it's at a paradigm level?

2119
01:50:56,960 --> 01:50:58,960
It is. It is a fallacy. At paradigm level.

2120
01:50:59,399 --> 01:51:02,640
Speaker 2: I'm talking, you interrupt me. You're on a roll now

2121
01:51:02,720 --> 01:51:06,560
and you're interrupting, and the doctor sells me, oh, Paul,

2122
01:51:06,640 --> 01:51:10,039
you have disease X and you need treatment. I trust

2123
01:51:10,119 --> 01:51:12,439
my doctor to get it right. I rely on his

2124
01:51:12,560 --> 01:51:15,439
authority to give me information. I appeal to his authority.

2125
01:51:15,680 --> 01:51:17,319
When when my friend of mine says, I looked on

2126
01:51:17,399 --> 01:51:20,039
Google and I've seen this website and I don't no, no,

2127
01:51:20,439 --> 01:51:23,000
I'm trusting my doctor. That's an appeal to authority, which

2128
01:51:23,079 --> 01:51:23,880
is perfectly valid.

2129
01:51:24,520 --> 01:51:26,720
Speaker 1: But that's that's not at the paradigm level. We're at

2130
01:51:26,760 --> 01:51:27,479
the paradigm level.

2131
01:51:27,640 --> 01:51:29,399
Speaker 2: I'm not talking and I'm just talking about an appeal

2132
01:51:29,439 --> 01:51:30,720
to authority. That's all I'm saying.

2133
01:51:30,920 --> 01:51:34,560
Speaker 1: That's called a fallacy. And because it is a fallacy,

2134
01:51:34,560 --> 01:51:35,199
I'm sorry.

2135
01:51:36,039 --> 01:51:37,760
Speaker 2: You've not pointed out how it's a fallacy. In a

2136
01:51:37,840 --> 01:51:40,399
slighted you could be said, it's it's very fallacy. Just

2137
01:51:40,560 --> 01:51:41,600
claimed it the fallacy.

2138
01:51:42,239 --> 01:51:44,600
Speaker 1: How is it claimed it's a fallacy? I made it up?

2139
01:51:44,680 --> 01:51:48,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Well why is it a fallacy? My doctor?

2140
01:51:48,479 --> 01:51:49,960
Speaker 1: We got to read we got to read this.

2141
01:51:51,479 --> 01:51:56,159
Speaker 2: An expert physician, and I appeal to experts.

2142
01:51:56,439 --> 01:52:03,119
Speaker 1: This is fallacies. That station It's just sorry, but it's

2143
01:52:03,119 --> 01:52:05,720
a fallacy. Why is it a fallacy? Take a Magic

2144
01:52:05,880 --> 01:52:08,359
Basic logic class and you'll get a list of the

2145
01:52:08,399 --> 01:52:10,760
informal fallacies, and one of the top ones there will

2146
01:52:10,840 --> 01:52:13,119
be a fallacy of authority.

2147
01:52:13,319 --> 01:52:15,119
Speaker 2: Can you actually tell me why it's a fallacy.

2148
01:52:16,239 --> 01:52:18,640
Speaker 1: Just tell me what I already have, because at the

2149
01:52:18,720 --> 01:52:21,840
paradigm level you can't appeal to human authorities like that.

2150
01:52:21,960 --> 01:52:24,600
When I'm asking you a paradigm level question. You know

2151
01:52:24,680 --> 01:52:27,359
about paradigms because you cited Thomas Kenny wrote a whole

2152
01:52:27,359 --> 01:52:30,479
book about it. I'm asking you a paradigmatic level question,

2153
01:52:30,920 --> 01:52:34,000
and you're saying that it's not amount of fallacy.

2154
01:52:34,159 --> 01:52:36,720
Speaker 2: Paradigm today you're obsessed with paradigms.

2155
01:52:37,000 --> 01:52:39,560
Speaker 1: That paradigm that's how that's how I do. That's how

2156
01:52:39,600 --> 01:52:39,760
I do.

2157
01:52:40,119 --> 01:52:43,439
Speaker 2: But that's not how I do. You see them, was

2158
01:52:43,560 --> 01:52:47,319
only concerned with the structure of scientific revolutions and paradigm shifts.

2159
01:52:47,640 --> 01:52:49,840
Nothing to do with our paradigms of the Bible.

2160
01:52:49,960 --> 01:52:53,119
Speaker 1: Not true, wrong, wrong, you're trying to do scientific You

2161
01:52:53,119 --> 01:52:57,159
said you're doing scientific exidesis you said you're doing scientific extrajicie,

2162
01:52:57,199 --> 01:52:58,039
it's the exact same thing.

2163
01:52:59,159 --> 01:53:01,239
Speaker 2: You're not to let me speak, just to say that

2164
01:53:01,359 --> 01:53:06,159
this Bible completely disagrees these expert a Jewish scholarship.

2165
01:53:06,560 --> 01:53:10,760
Speaker 1: Mind blown Jews that are expert Jews disagree with Christian

2166
01:53:12,159 --> 01:53:14,000
argument any evidence.

2167
01:53:14,039 --> 01:53:17,159
Speaker 2: Some of the Jewish scriptures that that stated that the

2168
01:53:17,279 --> 01:53:19,760
Messiah would die and rise again on the third day.

2169
01:53:19,920 --> 01:53:23,000
This passage, they will not say that. It does not

2170
01:53:23,239 --> 01:53:25,680
say that, so you have failed in your effort.

2171
01:53:26,239 --> 01:53:29,319
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, it sound to read superchats are ready?

2172
01:53:30,560 --> 01:53:33,960
All right? Thank you JD. From this lurking Nerd Joline

2173
01:53:34,039 --> 01:53:36,600
K nine ninety nine. Well, thank you, Joline, appreciate it.

2174
01:53:36,920 --> 01:53:39,520
Brandon Johnson one dollar, Thank you, Brandon, now Ke for

2175
01:53:39,640 --> 01:53:44,079
us focus five dollars, Thank you very much, nikever appreciate that. Frosty.

2176
01:53:44,319 --> 01:53:45,920
By the way, if you want to add the superchats,

2177
01:53:46,720 --> 01:53:49,319
now is the time, Frosty the bear of five dollars.

2178
01:53:49,359 --> 01:53:52,199
Jesus fulfilled every prophecy of his coming, as told in

2179
01:53:52,279 --> 01:53:55,119
the Torah and the prophets. How can that be denied?

2180
01:53:55,359 --> 01:53:57,760
I agree with that. That was one of the arguments, Paul.

2181
01:53:57,760 --> 01:54:01,079
You can respond to that I deny it.

2182
01:54:01,279 --> 01:54:05,600
Speaker 2: Should I give an example where it is denied? Go ahead, okay.

2183
01:54:05,960 --> 01:54:10,800
There's a passage in Matthew's Gospel where Matthew says that

2184
01:54:10,880 --> 01:54:14,840
he fulfilled a prophecy that he will be called a Nazarene.

2185
01:54:15,920 --> 01:54:19,000
I'm not aware of any prophecy like this anywhere in

2186
01:54:19,159 --> 01:54:21,479
the Bible. Perhaps you can tell me where it is right.

2187
01:54:21,560 --> 01:54:24,880
Speaker 1: Well, there are traditions we as you are aware of,

2188
01:54:24,880 --> 01:54:26,840
the Roman Catholic view and the Orthodox view agrees that

2189
01:54:26,840 --> 01:54:30,000
there's an oral tradition. Oral tradition doesn't just apply to

2190
01:54:30,039 --> 01:54:33,239
the Apostolic deposit. There's also oral traditions that Jesus appealed

2191
01:54:33,279 --> 01:54:36,199
to many times in the Gospels. And as I mentioned earlier,

2192
01:54:36,520 --> 01:54:40,680
Jeremiah speaks of the Pharisaic tradition. Even in Jeremiah's day,

2193
01:54:40,680 --> 01:54:42,640
there was some corruption in the Pharisee tradition. That's what

2194
01:54:42,720 --> 01:54:45,279
Jeremiah criticizes in his book. But we don't think that

2195
01:54:45,399 --> 01:54:49,319
everything that the Pharisees taught was erroneous. In fact, because

2196
01:54:49,359 --> 01:54:51,880
Matthew twenty three Jesus says describes in the Pharisees sit

2197
01:54:51,960 --> 01:54:55,159
in the seat of Moses. There's no direct Torah or

2198
01:54:55,239 --> 01:54:57,800
prophet explanation of what the seed of Moses is, but

2199
01:54:58,000 --> 01:55:00,920
is a succession of authority that traditional that you just

2200
01:55:01,000 --> 01:55:03,880
appealed to. So I would reply to you that that

2201
01:55:04,119 --> 01:55:06,439
text that you're talking about is a tradition.

2202
01:55:06,680 --> 01:55:09,319
Speaker 2: Well, it says actually through the profits, So which profit.

2203
01:55:09,119 --> 01:55:11,920
Speaker 1: Do we have? There are profits that that spoke and

2204
01:55:12,000 --> 01:55:13,920
taught oral traditions.

2205
01:55:14,039 --> 01:55:15,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, So which which are the prophets?

2206
01:55:16,000 --> 01:55:17,359
Speaker 1: Said that we don't know?

2207
01:55:18,439 --> 01:55:19,319
Speaker 2: So how did Matthew know?

2208
01:55:20,720 --> 01:55:24,119
Speaker 1: Because well, we believe in inspiration, so and argue men,

2209
01:55:24,319 --> 01:55:25,359
men can be inspired.

2210
01:55:25,399 --> 01:55:27,560
Speaker 2: And also that's an arbitrary that is true.

2211
01:55:27,640 --> 01:55:28,840
Speaker 1: No, it's not, No, it's not. I mean, if you

2212
01:55:28,880 --> 01:55:31,479
understand how Judio hasn't worked, they had an oral tradition

2213
01:55:31,600 --> 01:55:33,600
as well as a written tradition before the time of Christ.

2214
01:55:34,039 --> 01:55:35,800
Speaker 2: If I said to you as it says in the Profits,

2215
01:55:35,840 --> 01:55:38,319
would you automatically assume you I was speaking about oral

2216
01:55:38,880 --> 01:55:40,279
works or tradition.

2217
01:55:40,359 --> 01:55:43,199
Speaker 1: I would yes, because that's a common apologetic argument.

2218
01:55:43,000 --> 01:55:45,319
Speaker 2: I make, very unusual because the profits, it's.

2219
01:55:45,159 --> 01:55:47,439
Speaker 1: Not very unusual. It's a common apologetic argument we make.

2220
01:55:47,600 --> 01:55:50,760
So okay, we got we got to move on.

2221
01:55:50,880 --> 01:55:53,279
Speaker 2: This is this to the Jewish prophets, and there are

2222
01:55:53,279 --> 01:55:55,159
no Jewish prophets ever said that. That's my point.

2223
01:55:55,319 --> 01:55:59,600
Speaker 1: So Lieutenant c HF five dollars, thank you, Lieutenant spec

2224
01:55:59,720 --> 01:56:02,600
seven read eighty two. No comments on this. I'm waiting

2225
01:56:02,640 --> 01:56:04,920
for your Papacy series. It's gonna come. I promise you,

2226
01:56:05,000 --> 01:56:07,960
Speca there will be a treatment of the history of

2227
01:56:08,039 --> 01:56:11,359
the papacy coming soon. John Holloway five dollars. What would

2228
01:56:11,359 --> 01:56:14,680
you say the key difference is between Christian just warfare

2229
01:56:15,199 --> 01:56:19,640
and Islamic just warfare, or an Orthodox theocratic view versus

2230
01:56:19,680 --> 01:56:22,600
an Islamic view. I'll stay briefly my take on that,

2231
01:56:22,680 --> 01:56:24,119
and I'll let paulicy. I would say that if you

2232
01:56:24,159 --> 01:56:27,760
look at the history of Orthodox kingdoms, the businessing Empire,

2233
01:56:28,319 --> 01:56:30,560
you would see at least attempts. And obviously this wasn't

2234
01:56:30,600 --> 01:56:34,560
always done correctly or ideally, but there's there's typically the

2235
01:56:34,600 --> 01:56:39,199
attempts to have Biblical principles apply even to warfare. So

2236
01:56:39,720 --> 01:56:43,399
there's a book by McGuckin The Christian Scent of Christian

2237
01:56:43,479 --> 01:56:45,560
Law where he kind of traces the history of canon

2238
01:56:45,640 --> 01:56:49,479
law and how it influenced Byzantium and and so in

2239
01:56:49,600 --> 01:56:51,960
my view, I would say that we try to apply

2240
01:56:52,119 --> 01:56:53,920
He could look at something like the Catholic view of

2241
01:56:54,079 --> 01:56:56,359
just war. I mean that's you know, the Roman Catholic

2242
01:56:56,399 --> 01:56:58,880
and the Orthodox perspective historically have been kind of similar

2243
01:56:58,920 --> 01:57:02,560
on just war theory. Paul can feel free to answer

2244
01:57:03,039 --> 01:57:04,560
his view of theocracy.

2245
01:57:05,399 --> 01:57:10,840
Speaker 2: There is a just war, clear boundaries and limitations on fighting.

2246
01:57:11,399 --> 01:57:14,199
She had military you had, it has to be done

2247
01:57:14,319 --> 01:57:18,920
for proportionately. You can't target women, children, babies, monks, and priests.

2248
01:57:19,119 --> 01:57:21,640
There's explicitly said in the teaching my Hammi's why isis

2249
01:57:22,000 --> 01:57:25,479
is so on Islamic because so barbaric and it's atrocities.

2250
01:57:25,600 --> 01:57:27,960
It has nothing to do with Islam. However, the Bible,

2251
01:57:28,079 --> 01:57:32,880
unfortunately is very different. Unfortunately, it advocates genocide. In one

2252
01:57:32,960 --> 01:57:36,159
Samuel fifteen, God is portrayed as someone who commands the

2253
01:57:36,239 --> 01:57:41,079
killing of women, children, babies, donkeys, camels. There is no

2254
01:57:41,399 --> 01:57:45,479
just war in the Bible. It's unrestricted genocide and slaughter

2255
01:57:45,880 --> 01:57:48,920
on an industrial scale. And I'm afraid if you want

2256
01:57:49,119 --> 01:57:51,840
just war, you're not going to find it in the Bible,

2257
01:57:51,920 --> 01:57:53,359
but you will find it in Islam.

2258
01:57:53,760 --> 01:57:56,720
Speaker 1: Okay. For a fuller treatment of my response to the

2259
01:57:56,760 --> 01:57:58,600
things that Paul just said, I do have two talks.

2260
01:57:58,600 --> 01:58:01,319
If you listen to my traditional flash in Metaphysics series,

2261
01:58:01,399 --> 01:58:03,399
I actually cover the just war and the text that

2262
01:58:03,439 --> 01:58:07,760
he said talk about there those were specific instances where

2263
01:58:07,800 --> 01:58:10,199
God committed Israel to do those things, So I treat

2264
01:58:10,279 --> 01:58:13,680
that in more more detail. All right, so we move

2265
01:58:13,760 --> 01:58:16,079
on to bony M two dollars, Thank you bony M.

2266
01:58:16,800 --> 01:58:19,920
Lieutenant C. HF five dollars. I S L A M E. D.

2267
01:58:20,479 --> 01:58:22,479
I'm not sure what that means. N. C red Dollar

2268
01:58:22,600 --> 01:58:26,359
ninety nine. Modern crusade when no time for crusades or

2269
01:58:27,000 --> 01:58:30,239
that's not the way things work now, Mark Brown two dollars.

2270
01:58:30,399 --> 01:58:34,840
Well well done defending divinity of Jesus. Thank you, we

2271
01:58:35,119 --> 01:58:38,359
lad two dollars. He has not responded to the divine

2272
01:58:38,359 --> 01:58:41,279
simplicity criticism. No, I don't think that he did. Do

2273
01:58:41,399 --> 01:58:43,720
you have any response to the criticism I made of

2274
01:58:43,800 --> 01:58:47,039
the fact that if God's unicity is an absolutely viewed

2275
01:58:47,079 --> 01:58:48,920
in an absolute sense, that his act of creating the

2276
01:58:49,239 --> 01:58:51,840
world is also synonymous with his essence, which is eternal,

2277
01:58:52,000 --> 01:58:53,479
that would mean the creation is eternal.

2278
01:58:54,399 --> 01:58:56,000
Speaker 2: No. I don't follow the logic of that at all.

2279
01:58:57,000 --> 01:59:00,880
God in Islam is someone who is absolute, eternal, uncous

2280
01:59:01,000 --> 01:59:03,880
cause of all that is in the universe, the space, time, continuum,

2281
01:59:03,920 --> 01:59:07,239
et cetera. He is eternally the creator, he's eternally loving,

2282
01:59:07,279 --> 01:59:10,520
he's eternally always attributes are eternal.

2283
01:59:10,840 --> 01:59:12,279
Speaker 1: Is eternally the creator.

2284
01:59:13,039 --> 01:59:15,520
Speaker 2: Yes, of course he doesn't. God doesn't. And unlike in Christianity,

2285
01:59:15,560 --> 01:59:18,000
where God changes, he becomes a man, he dies, and

2286
01:59:18,079 --> 01:59:21,680
so on, God being eternal does not does not change.

2287
01:59:22,399 --> 01:59:25,880
He's always doesn't mean he's always creating, but he's always

2288
01:59:25,920 --> 01:59:27,880
the creator and obviously.

2289
01:59:27,880 --> 01:59:30,239
Speaker 1: The creation the creator. If he's not always creating.

2290
01:59:30,359 --> 01:59:32,880
Speaker 2: Because he has the attributes of being a creator, that's

2291
01:59:32,880 --> 01:59:35,399
what it means. Yeah, that's what the word creator means,

2292
01:59:36,319 --> 01:59:36,880
being a creator.

2293
01:59:36,960 --> 01:59:39,279
Speaker 1: How is he how is he an eternal creator when

2294
01:59:39,279 --> 01:59:39,840
he wasn't.

2295
01:59:39,680 --> 01:59:43,279
Speaker 2: Creating, always creating any more than he has the attribute

2296
01:59:43,359 --> 01:59:46,520
of glory and love and compassion that he is always

2297
01:59:47,359 --> 01:59:50,159
in our space time sense doing those things.

2298
01:59:50,720 --> 01:59:53,960
Speaker 1: Different Because because if he's an eternal is eternally creator,

2299
01:59:54,119 --> 01:59:58,239
then what's her creator of eternally? Well, he that's not

2300
01:59:58,359 --> 02:00:01,920
why the attributes breakdown. They're meaningless.

2301
02:00:02,319 --> 02:00:05,880
Speaker 2: The universe is contingent, it's not necessary.

2302
02:00:05,560 --> 02:00:07,079
Speaker 1: It's it's not an answer. That's not what I asked you.

2303
02:00:07,239 --> 02:00:10,039
Speaker 2: Well, it's my answer. You may not like it's my answer.

2304
02:00:10,359 --> 02:00:13,560
And therefore there was a time when the universe didn't exist.

2305
02:00:13,600 --> 02:00:15,319
Speaker 1: Now God, then God's not always creator.

2306
02:00:15,680 --> 02:00:18,960
Speaker 2: God didn't change and become something he wasn't before because

2307
02:00:19,000 --> 02:00:20,000
God is perfect.

2308
02:00:19,720 --> 02:00:23,279
Speaker 1: And then he's an internal creator. But in Christianity, refuted yourself.

2309
02:00:23,760 --> 02:00:26,600
Speaker 2: You believe God died and God does not die. God

2310
02:00:26,720 --> 02:00:27,199
is immortal.

2311
02:00:27,279 --> 02:00:31,560
Speaker 1: The Bible says that Jesus himself underwent Now you don't believe,

2312
02:00:31,600 --> 02:00:33,479
you don't know what we believe. He underwent death in

2313
02:00:33,520 --> 02:00:35,239
his humanity, that the Son of God did.

2314
02:00:35,199 --> 02:00:38,000
Speaker 2: Not die, so the divinity of God, of God didn't die.

2315
02:00:38,279 --> 02:00:41,960
So you believe it impossible a human sacrifice that saves you,

2316
02:00:42,159 --> 02:00:45,199
when a human sacrifice again, is not a notion worthy

2317
02:00:45,279 --> 02:00:45,640
of God.

2318
02:00:45,680 --> 02:00:48,680
Speaker 1: I'm afraid fact that you only determine what is worthy

2319
02:00:48,720 --> 02:00:50,359
of God or a notion worthy of God, within the

2320
02:00:50,399 --> 02:00:52,720
paradigm of the belief system itself. So you're you're using

2321
02:00:52,760 --> 02:00:53,600
an extra.

2322
02:00:54,199 --> 02:00:57,680
Speaker 2: System, using the paradigm of the Bible, because the.

2323
02:00:58,560 --> 02:01:00,920
Speaker 1: God requires God part of sacrifices.

2324
02:01:01,800 --> 02:01:04,760
Speaker 2: My paradigm is the Jewish Bible, and what it says

2325
02:01:04,760 --> 02:01:05,960
about human sacrifice.

2326
02:01:06,279 --> 02:01:08,840
Speaker 1: Well, that doesn't matter because we're not Jews. So you're

2327
02:01:09,039 --> 02:01:11,560
the paradigm of the Jewish BIBLEY not an argument against this.

2328
02:01:12,359 --> 02:01:15,239
Speaker 2: The New Testament is a book written by people. I know.

2329
02:01:15,479 --> 02:01:20,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's arbitrary, right, So the the was the Mosaic

2330
02:01:20,399 --> 02:01:21,720
Law written by people.

2331
02:01:21,840 --> 02:01:23,279
Speaker 2: I don't think he was right. I don't think the

2332
02:01:23,279 --> 02:01:27,000
Apostles Law he was writing scripture when you pay.

2333
02:01:27,319 --> 02:01:29,039
Speaker 1: Your arbitrary Paul, it's arbitrary.

2334
02:01:29,600 --> 02:01:31,479
Speaker 2: There's just a word you're throwing out. Do you think

2335
02:01:31,520 --> 02:01:33,880
Paul realized he was writing holy scripture when you wrote one?

2336
02:01:34,079 --> 02:01:34,840
Speaker 1: Absolutely? Yes.

2337
02:01:35,279 --> 02:01:37,760
Speaker 2: No, But you see he didn't because he denied in

2338
02:01:37,840 --> 02:01:40,439
one Corinthians, chapter seven, verse twelve that what he was

2339
02:01:40,479 --> 02:01:41,319
saying was from God.

2340
02:01:41,600 --> 02:01:45,319
Speaker 1: No, that's that's that's an example of that's an example

2341
02:01:45,399 --> 02:01:47,960
like listen, if you go to an Orthodox liturgy, you

2342
02:01:48,000 --> 02:01:51,760
will see an irreverence of the text in different levels.

2343
02:01:51,800 --> 02:01:54,640
So for example, I'm talking about you're not you're not

2344
02:01:54,680 --> 02:01:56,640
going to listen to what my explanation. So let's move on.

2345
02:01:58,079 --> 02:02:02,600
Lawrence ballinag two dollars the lad spent. Okay, thank you

2346
02:02:02,720 --> 02:02:07,920
appreciate that. Nickorepis focus again. Five dollars, thank you. Unrelated

2347
02:02:08,000 --> 02:02:09,520
question do you haven't Jay? Do you have a favorite

2348
02:02:09,520 --> 02:02:13,159
book dealing with the spiritual or ascetic life outside of

2349
02:02:13,199 --> 02:02:15,079
the Bible. Well, of course, the feel of Colia is good,

2350
02:02:15,159 --> 02:02:20,039
but I would say I usually go to my prayer book.

2351
02:02:20,039 --> 02:02:21,399
So if you don't have an Orthodox prayer book, I

2352
02:02:21,399 --> 02:02:24,319
would recommend having one of those. Lieutenant C. HF. Two

2353
02:02:24,399 --> 02:02:31,600
dollars Your your shirt is haram Paul Robino two pounds

2354
02:02:32,079 --> 02:02:35,960
Chad Jay versus Virgin Muslim. I'm not going to read

2355
02:02:35,960 --> 02:02:37,520
the other comments there so they might get us in

2356
02:02:37,560 --> 02:02:42,239
trouble Silver nas Gul five dollars Starting with Jay. Can

2357
02:02:42,279 --> 02:02:44,960
you go into the presubpositions of nature in person, especially

2358
02:02:45,079 --> 02:02:48,600
with regard to the hour? Why have you forsaken me? Yes,

2359
02:02:48,680 --> 02:02:52,159
we don't believe that Jesus is expressing from in an

2360
02:02:52,479 --> 02:02:55,720
aryan or human sense that he was forgotten of God.

2361
02:02:55,720 --> 02:02:58,640
He's quoting the Psalms. He's quoting David's experience of feeling death,

2362
02:02:58,920 --> 02:03:03,039
which shows that in the Gospel and Jesus perspective, every

2363
02:03:03,079 --> 02:03:06,199
time the time the Old Testament and the Psalms are cited,

2364
02:03:06,520 --> 02:03:08,920
they're cited christologically. So this is something that Paul and

2365
02:03:08,960 --> 02:03:10,960
I would disagree with. I don't think he understands that.

2366
02:03:11,439 --> 02:03:13,720
If you do a study of all of the texts

2367
02:03:13,840 --> 02:03:16,039
in the New Testament where they cite the Old Testament,

2368
02:03:16,399 --> 02:03:19,399
you will see that almost all the time it's interpreted christologically.

2369
02:03:19,439 --> 02:03:21,800
I know Paul reck rejects that, but what I'm saying.

2370
02:03:21,680 --> 02:03:25,239
Speaker 2: Is that it's called Jesus east of Jesus. I agree

2371
02:03:25,279 --> 02:03:25,680
it's happening.

2372
02:03:25,720 --> 02:03:27,359
Speaker 3: I agree, but Gesus.

2373
02:03:27,760 --> 02:03:32,279
Speaker 1: Okay, again, that's why we went to paradigms, because in

2374
02:03:32,399 --> 02:03:34,319
order to judge when something's ice to Jesus and when

2375
02:03:34,359 --> 02:03:37,479
something's not right, we have to You are assuming that

2376
02:03:37,520 --> 02:03:40,039
there's a neutral critical stance, and I'm telling you that

2377
02:03:40,119 --> 02:03:42,840
there's not. I ask you multiple times that I asked

2378
02:03:42,840 --> 02:03:45,479
you multiple times how you determine your neutral critical stance

2379
02:03:45,800 --> 02:03:48,920
and you restated what a grammatical historical, neutral historical stance

2380
02:03:49,039 --> 02:03:51,079
is and I'm saying that doesn't exist. You admit that

2381
02:03:51,159 --> 02:03:53,279
it doesn't exist because you know about Thomas Kune. You

2382
02:03:53,319 --> 02:03:55,640
said that Thomas Kune doesn't apply because he's talking about science.

2383
02:03:55,880 --> 02:03:58,199
And then you said that your approaches scientific exto Jesus.

2384
02:03:58,279 --> 02:04:02,640
So you don't understand paradigms and you don't understand philosophy

2385
02:04:02,640 --> 02:04:03,239
in that regard.

2386
02:04:03,319 --> 02:04:05,920
Speaker 2: Question Jay, about the crime there? Do you want to

2387
02:04:06,079 --> 02:04:07,479
deal with that someone gave you five dollars?

2388
02:04:08,359 --> 02:04:08,800
Speaker 1: Which one?

2389
02:04:09,159 --> 02:04:14,560
Speaker 2: It was a bit further up, it's about the trinity

2390
02:04:14,640 --> 02:04:16,239
and Mary and in the clan.

2391
02:04:17,119 --> 02:04:19,279
Speaker 1: Oh I missed out. Okay, let's see, but where are

2392
02:04:19,319 --> 02:04:22,720
your nab Paul? Ask Paul why the Koran got the

2393
02:04:22,760 --> 02:04:25,640
Trinity wrong includes Mary if Allah is the true all

2394
02:04:25,720 --> 02:04:27,840
known God Koran five one sixty.

2395
02:04:28,840 --> 02:04:31,439
Speaker 2: This, this is a misunderstanding. If you actually read the passage,

2396
02:04:31,560 --> 02:04:34,600
it doesn't mention a trinity at all. It says here,

2397
02:04:34,840 --> 02:04:38,079
and I'll read the quote. When God says, Jesus, son

2398
02:04:38,159 --> 02:04:40,560
of Mary, did you say to people, take me and

2399
02:04:40,680 --> 02:04:43,319
my mother as to gods alongside God? He will say

2400
02:04:43,399 --> 02:04:46,319
that's Jesus, may you be exalted. I would never say

2401
02:04:46,359 --> 02:04:48,000
what I have no right to say. If I had

2402
02:04:48,000 --> 02:04:50,159
said such a thing, you would have known it. So

2403
02:04:50,319 --> 02:04:53,960
he's basically denying that he ever asked people to worship

2404
02:04:54,039 --> 02:04:56,399
him as God or his mother as God. Yet they're

2405
02:04:56,399 --> 02:04:59,960
both be given divine titles by Christians, by Orthodox christ

2406
02:05:00,239 --> 02:05:05,399
particularly who are very load Mary with with these divine titles.

2407
02:05:05,880 --> 02:05:08,680
And the Crown corrects this is that either she nor

2408
02:05:08,880 --> 02:05:11,479
Jesus ever claimed these divine titles for themselves.

2409
02:05:11,760 --> 02:05:14,239
Speaker 1: Okay, well again, I quoted at the beginning of the

2410
02:05:14,279 --> 02:05:18,199
debate in Luke. Early on, you have Elizabeth saying to Mary,

2411
02:05:18,199 --> 02:05:19,720
who am I to the mother of my Lord? Lord

2412
02:05:19,800 --> 02:05:25,119
is a divine title in the New Testament, and the

2413
02:05:25,279 --> 02:05:27,680
title the title mother of God does not mean she

2414
02:05:27,800 --> 02:05:29,760
caused his divinity. All it means is that she was

2415
02:05:29,840 --> 02:05:32,279
the means by All it means is that she was

2416
02:05:32,359 --> 02:05:34,199
the means by which the Son of God was born.

2417
02:05:34,520 --> 02:05:36,640
Paul should know that, but he's acting like he doesn't

2418
02:05:36,680 --> 02:05:38,000
know that. Christianity teaches that.

2419
02:05:39,479 --> 02:05:41,119
Speaker 2: Tony Blass, I believe they do still.

2420
02:05:41,199 --> 02:05:44,560
Speaker 1: Now, most Mary is not got Okay, nobody believes.

2421
02:05:44,319 --> 02:05:46,680
Speaker 2: That she is treated as a de facto deity.

2422
02:05:46,920 --> 02:05:50,359
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I mean one of the areas where I'm

2423
02:05:50,359 --> 02:05:53,239
a specialist is in the question of Saint Cyril and

2424
02:05:53,520 --> 02:05:57,640
Ephesus uh. And the term mother of God does not

2425
02:05:57,760 --> 02:05:59,840
mean that she caused his divinity. So I'm telling you

2426
02:05:59,880 --> 02:06:01,000
that that's what we believe.

2427
02:06:01,479 --> 02:06:02,840
Speaker 2: Of the Holy Spirit. What do you think about that

2428
02:06:02,920 --> 02:06:05,760
title given to marri We're not Roman Catholics, so, but

2429
02:06:06,159 --> 02:06:07,920
Roman Catholics call Mary's.

2430
02:06:07,720 --> 02:06:09,279
Speaker 1: I'm not here to debate Roman Catholicism.

2431
02:06:09,319 --> 02:06:12,600
Speaker 2: So I'm saying the biggest church in the world, I'm

2432
02:06:12,640 --> 02:06:18,239
not here to defend that this chronic criticism is still

2433
02:06:18,319 --> 02:06:19,199
very relevant today.

2434
02:06:19,800 --> 02:06:23,479
Speaker 1: Okay, Robino, I'm going to try to make sure that

2435
02:06:23,479 --> 02:06:27,640
did miss these. Okay, some of these are a little leude.

2436
02:06:27,680 --> 02:06:30,600
I'm not going to read the lude ones Robino Jay

2437
02:06:30,680 --> 02:06:35,279
dire invite English humorous polliums. I don't get it, Pepe sells,

2438
02:06:35,279 --> 02:06:38,520
who's buying three dollars? Three dollars for the triying God?

2439
02:06:38,800 --> 02:06:42,560
Honk Lawrence ballinak to dollars? Think you? Lawrence Tannertary twenty dollars. Well,

2440
02:06:42,880 --> 02:06:44,960
Tannertary says Paul, I'm an expert when it comes to

2441
02:06:45,159 --> 02:06:50,680
programming computers can materialize a unicorn. I'm an I'm an expert.

2442
02:06:50,760 --> 02:06:54,000
Therefore it must be true that computers can materialize unicorns.

2443
02:06:54,319 --> 02:06:55,479
That's why this is a fallacy.

2444
02:06:56,680 --> 02:06:58,359
Speaker 2: This is a very silly thing to say.

2445
02:06:58,960 --> 02:07:01,239
Speaker 1: Well, I think he's illustrating why that's a fellasum.

2446
02:07:02,560 --> 02:07:04,840
Speaker 2: I don't see anything to do with what I've said

2447
02:07:04,880 --> 02:07:07,840
about Jesus or God or the Choran a.

2448
02:07:07,840 --> 02:07:12,199
Speaker 1: Connection, okay, Lieutenant HF five dollars. How can Paul say

2449
02:07:12,199 --> 02:07:16,199
that mess Anic prophecies in the Psalms might refer to Jesus,

2450
02:07:16,239 --> 02:07:18,640
but also at the same time that believes that the

2451
02:07:18,680 --> 02:07:20,680
Promise to Hagars talks about Muhammad.

2452
02:07:22,720 --> 02:07:25,399
Speaker 2: That's two completely different things. There are massly any prophecies

2453
02:07:25,520 --> 02:07:28,840
which do not refer, ever in the Bible, to a

2454
02:07:28,920 --> 02:07:31,439
Messiah being God, or dying for sins, or dying for

2455
02:07:31,520 --> 02:07:33,000
any of what sins of the world. This is a

2456
02:07:33,119 --> 02:07:36,239
Christian story. It's a Christian myth. It's not I believed

2457
02:07:36,239 --> 02:07:39,359
by any Jews prior to the rise of Christianity, and

2458
02:07:39,479 --> 02:07:41,800
therefore I see no reason to believe it myself. It's

2459
02:07:41,840 --> 02:07:42,760
not taught by the churn.

2460
02:07:43,600 --> 02:07:46,720
Speaker 1: Okay, by her WHI is five dollars. I just attended

2461
02:07:46,760 --> 02:07:49,039
my first Orthodox service and I loved it. Thank you Jay, Well,

2462
02:07:49,039 --> 02:07:52,039
thank you. By her helpe, you continue seeking out the

2463
02:07:52,119 --> 02:07:56,520
truth in that regard? What does ac five euro What

2464
02:07:56,720 --> 02:07:59,720
does Paul think about We're not going to read the

2465
02:08:00,159 --> 02:08:03,000
the ones I can't read a loud Mark Brown two dollars?

2466
02:08:03,079 --> 02:08:06,760
Ask Paul how logos fits into the current Well, let

2467
02:08:06,800 --> 02:08:09,119
me ask you this a couple I'll rephrase this. What

2468
02:08:09,239 --> 02:08:12,680
about the common objections that you hear kind of the

2469
02:08:14,560 --> 02:08:17,960
low level of program. You know, about the bad things

2470
02:08:18,039 --> 02:08:19,880
in Mohammed's life, which I'm not going to say public

2471
02:08:20,359 --> 02:08:22,680
because of the YouTube, you know, strictures. I'm not going

2472
02:08:22,720 --> 02:08:26,039
to say certain things, or about the way the Kuran

2473
02:08:26,079 --> 02:08:28,239
talks about the logos? What would you say about those things? Paul?

2474
02:08:28,560 --> 02:08:30,479
Speaker 2: Look, so I don't know what, So can you give

2475
02:08:30,520 --> 02:08:33,119
me a passage to this is too vague.

2476
02:08:33,359 --> 02:08:35,880
Speaker 1: Well, what I'm saying is that sometimes people will criticize

2477
02:08:35,960 --> 02:08:38,840
the moral, will say lifestyle of the prophet.

2478
02:08:39,279 --> 02:08:41,560
Speaker 2: Give me example, because I didn't see.

2479
02:08:42,119 --> 02:08:43,960
Speaker 1: I'll let the person who gave the question they can

2480
02:08:44,000 --> 02:08:44,680
add their example.

2481
02:08:44,960 --> 02:08:48,039
Speaker 2: I'm not a sensitive about this, Jay, so I'm not good, but.

2482
02:08:48,079 --> 02:08:51,279
Speaker 1: I'm concerned about the way YouTube works with questions and censorship.

2483
02:08:51,359 --> 02:08:51,680
That's all.

2484
02:08:52,079 --> 02:08:54,560
Speaker 2: Oh, always see. No, that's a good point, j in

2485
02:08:54,600 --> 02:08:54,920
that case.

2486
02:08:55,359 --> 02:08:58,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we'll ask the next one. Mark says, Paul,

2487
02:08:58,640 --> 02:09:00,479
how does logos fit into the Kuran?

2488
02:09:02,119 --> 02:09:05,079
Speaker 2: Locos is a Greek term meaning reason or thought. I'm

2489
02:09:05,079 --> 02:09:07,680
not aware that term is used as such in the Koran?

2490
02:09:10,319 --> 02:09:15,600
Speaker 1: Tan or terry. Five dollars, Paul, Kuran, Well, we already

2491
02:09:15,640 --> 02:09:19,319
had that, Tanner, We already had that. That's that question

2492
02:09:19,680 --> 02:09:24,079
about five one sixteen, Grandma for Alexander five dollars, lads,

2493
02:09:24,239 --> 02:09:27,079
I haven't seen a stream this lit in a while. Well,

2494
02:09:27,119 --> 02:09:30,199
thank you, Grandma. I hope you enjoyed it. Jack Henney,

2495
02:09:31,359 --> 02:09:35,000
all must see com I don't know Arabic? What does that?

2496
02:09:35,119 --> 02:09:35,159
Speaker 2: Do?

2497
02:09:35,199 --> 02:09:38,239
Speaker 1: You know what that means? All? My see Kam come

2498
02:09:39,560 --> 02:09:43,079
so I don't know where that was it, Robino two

2499
02:09:43,159 --> 02:09:46,640
dollars last donation. Thank you for this great stream. All right, well,

2500
02:09:46,680 --> 02:09:49,600
thank you. Let's see do we have any more? I

2501
02:09:49,600 --> 02:09:52,520
don't see anymore coming in. But well that was heated.

2502
02:09:52,560 --> 02:09:55,399
I'm glad that that it got kind of hot. The

2503
02:09:55,479 --> 02:09:59,560
audience always likes a little bit of heat. I did

2504
02:09:59,720 --> 02:10:01,960
enjoy even though we got here, and I hope it wasn't.

2505
02:10:01,960 --> 02:10:04,680
Speaker 2: Too again, I'm happy and it's a bit cold here

2506
02:10:04,680 --> 02:10:06,079
in England, so I don't mean I don't mind a

2507
02:10:06,119 --> 02:10:06,800
bit of heat at all.

2508
02:10:07,800 --> 02:10:12,600
Speaker 1: Okay, let's see, I'll let you if you want to

2509
02:10:12,720 --> 02:10:14,920
give out your website, I'll put everybody's link, you know,

2510
02:10:14,960 --> 02:10:17,479
our links below and if I remember the questions that

2511
02:10:17,520 --> 02:10:20,079
were asking me, I'll put links to specific answer questions

2512
02:10:20,600 --> 02:10:23,880
as well. Paul, do you want to let everybody know

2513
02:10:24,039 --> 02:10:26,199
what your website is and where they can.

2514
02:10:26,119 --> 02:10:28,560
Speaker 2: Find you and what you'll be Yeah, it's called blogging

2515
02:10:28,640 --> 02:10:32,399
Theology to blogging Theology the number two dot com Blogging

2516
02:10:32,439 --> 02:10:35,920
Theology too dot com, And it's a forum, a safe

2517
02:10:35,960 --> 02:10:38,640
space where Christians and Muslims and others can debate and

2518
02:10:38,720 --> 02:10:42,479
discuss articles. There's no restriction on people. People say, as

2519
02:10:42,520 --> 02:10:45,760
long as they're not abusive, and you're welcome to stop by,

2520
02:10:45,840 --> 02:10:50,680
read the articles, comment, disagree. Disagreement is absolutely fine. You

2521
02:10:50,720 --> 02:10:52,960
can say things you disagree about Islam. I'm not sensitive

2522
02:10:52,960 --> 02:10:53,600
about that at all.

2523
02:10:54,520 --> 02:10:57,239
Speaker 1: There's one last there's another question here. Spec. Seven for

2524
02:10:57,399 --> 02:11:00,319
nine nine says, isn't there a different He says, isn't

2525
02:11:00,359 --> 02:11:05,119
there only one Qur'an because the others were destroyed if

2526
02:11:05,159 --> 02:11:06,720
they conflicted? Is that true?

2527
02:11:07,520 --> 02:11:11,439
Speaker 2: Uh? Not really that that's a myth. What happened was

2528
02:11:11,479 --> 02:11:14,159
at the time of Uthman, here was the third caliph

2529
02:11:14,479 --> 02:11:19,439
in Islam and the seventh and eighth centuries, islamas spreading

2530
02:11:19,560 --> 02:11:21,439
throughout the Middle East and what we call you know,

2531
02:11:21,600 --> 02:11:25,119
Iran and the Middle East and North Africa. It was

2532
02:11:25,159 --> 02:11:29,199
an oral it was mainly an oral recitation, and non

2533
02:11:29,319 --> 02:11:32,399
Muslims obviously becoming Muslims as well, and the purity of

2534
02:11:32,479 --> 02:11:37,600
the original tech the original recitation was changing and there

2535
02:11:37,680 --> 02:11:41,800
was and people were noticing that different kinds of you know,

2536
02:11:41,840 --> 02:11:44,880
there's a danger of the Kran becoming corrupted. And what

2537
02:11:45,000 --> 02:11:48,479
Othman decided to do he created this odor, this codex

2538
02:11:48,520 --> 02:11:52,680
basically with all the agreement of the companions, and they

2539
02:11:52,760 --> 02:11:57,880
created together all the written records of what the Hammad

2540
02:11:57,880 --> 02:11:59,920
had given them about the Kran says, and he created

2541
02:12:00,079 --> 02:12:03,279
this text, which was then copied, and copies of it

2542
02:12:03,359 --> 02:12:07,720
were sent out to the various parts of the Islamic Empire.

2543
02:12:08,039 --> 02:12:11,439
And all the other copies were ordered to be destroyed

2544
02:12:11,439 --> 02:12:13,760
because they might contain errors. They might have been written

2545
02:12:13,840 --> 02:12:17,479
down when someone misunderstood something, you know, thousands of miles

2546
02:12:17,520 --> 02:12:20,600
away from Medina or Mecca. So that was the purpose.

2547
02:12:20,600 --> 02:12:23,239
It was to protect the purity of the original revelation.

2548
02:12:24,359 --> 02:12:26,600
And so it was all Muslims now, except that the

2549
02:12:26,760 --> 02:12:30,720
Othmanic Codex is the original codex and Western scholars, I

2550
02:12:30,800 --> 02:12:33,199
know you hate this, but Western scholars accept this and

2551
02:12:33,279 --> 02:12:35,439
they see it as historically reliable.

2552
02:12:37,000 --> 02:12:39,680
Speaker 1: Okay. I did have a couple of questions about the

2553
02:12:39,840 --> 02:12:43,199
uploading the stream. I'm not giving people permission to upload

2554
02:12:43,239 --> 02:12:45,399
all of my streams, just this stream. If you want

2555
02:12:45,479 --> 02:12:48,119
to upload it, I don't care, but just please have

2556
02:12:48,560 --> 02:12:52,359
a link to the channel. And we had another question,

2557
02:12:52,640 --> 02:12:57,000
Eric Gernberg ten dollars, Jay, can you read Isaiah fifty

2558
02:12:57,039 --> 02:12:59,439
three and other biblical passes? Is about the coming of

2559
02:12:59,479 --> 02:13:02,479
the Messiah, his divinity I mean, I'm sure that Paul

2560
02:13:02,600 --> 02:13:05,600
has a pat response to that. I mean, you know,

2561
02:13:05,800 --> 02:13:09,319
obviously we think that the suffering servant and these texts

2562
02:13:09,439 --> 02:13:12,600
do refer to the Messiah, they do talk about his suffering,

2563
02:13:13,520 --> 02:13:17,039
but again we disagree at a paradigmatic level. What do

2564
02:13:17,079 --> 02:13:18,079
you think about those texts.

2565
02:13:19,159 --> 02:13:22,319
Speaker 2: It's a good question. I'm frequently asked about this by Christians.

2566
02:13:22,760 --> 02:13:26,039
I just want people to notice one thing. Realize I

2567
02:13:26,319 --> 02:13:29,319
fifty three, and do you ever notice the Messiah a

2568
02:13:29,399 --> 02:13:33,439
Messiah ever mentioned? It's not mentioned, And in fact, the

2569
02:13:33,680 --> 02:13:36,680
Isaiah fifty three is the fourth or four servants songs

2570
02:13:36,880 --> 02:13:40,960
STI mentioned scottars I apologize for now.

2571
02:13:41,039 --> 02:13:46,920
Speaker 1: It's just that it's arbitrary because because Messiah is you

2572
02:13:47,199 --> 02:13:49,640
have these arbitrary categories, you said, because the text doesn't

2573
02:13:49,640 --> 02:13:53,840
say you erect arbitrary categories about it.

2574
02:13:54,680 --> 02:13:56,439
Speaker 2: Just continue. There are four servant songs. As I think

2575
02:13:56,560 --> 02:13:59,199
Jay knows full well, this is the last. The servant

2576
02:13:59,279 --> 02:14:01,920
is clearly identif to find Israel itself. This is a

2577
02:14:02,000 --> 02:14:06,640
poetic passage, it's a figure of speech. It is understood

2578
02:14:06,680 --> 02:14:09,479
now by Hebrew scholars as it was then to refer

2579
02:14:09,640 --> 02:14:12,119
to Israel itself in captivity and.

2580
02:14:12,760 --> 02:14:15,439
Speaker 1: You just don't have that exegesis of messy passages. By

2581
02:14:15,479 --> 02:14:17,479
the way, that's something that you've made up to explain

2582
02:14:17,560 --> 02:14:18,199
away what it is.

2583
02:14:19,720 --> 02:14:22,279
Speaker 2: Well, what I'm saying is that this passage doesn't speak

2584
02:14:22,359 --> 02:14:24,279
of a Messiah, doesn't mention a Messiah.

2585
02:14:24,560 --> 02:14:26,760
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to mention it by name. Paul I

2586
02:14:26,880 --> 02:14:29,479
already dismantled because I can't.

2587
02:14:29,319 --> 02:14:32,079
Speaker 2: Say it's a passage and then it never mentions a Messiah.

2588
02:14:32,159 --> 02:14:35,600
That's kind of that's very weak, are very weak argument. Indeed,

2589
02:14:35,960 --> 02:14:39,239
you've got to have some so any so any text.

2590
02:14:39,800 --> 02:14:41,439
Speaker 1: How do you know that a text has to have

2591
02:14:41,600 --> 02:14:43,960
the term Messiah and it to be a Messianic prediction,

2592
02:14:44,000 --> 02:14:45,359
because the Jews don't be it that way.

2593
02:14:45,800 --> 02:14:49,079
Speaker 2: Because you could then say any passage of the Old Testament,

2594
02:14:49,199 --> 02:14:51,880
I choose arbitrarily, and I'm going to use your word now,

2595
02:14:52,079 --> 02:14:55,960
it's entirely arbitrary which passages you say are Messianic or not.

2596
02:14:57,000 --> 02:14:59,960
Isai fifty three in context, if you read the Isaiah

2597
02:15:00,000 --> 02:15:04,439
fifty two and fifty four, nobody denies to Israel. It's

2598
02:15:04,520 --> 02:15:08,199
not about were because of the context.

2599
02:15:09,039 --> 02:15:12,600
Speaker 1: We agree about the historical context, and there's a mirrored

2600
02:15:12,640 --> 02:15:14,800
fulfillment Okay, so there's no denying that.

2601
02:15:15,399 --> 02:15:18,520
Speaker 2: Fulfillment in the Jewish scriptures. I'm sorry, that's not that's.

2602
02:15:18,239 --> 02:15:21,840
Speaker 1: Not but you're not understanding that even the Jews believe

2603
02:15:21,920 --> 02:15:24,960
that David was writing about David and the coming Messiah.

2604
02:15:25,239 --> 02:15:29,159
Speaker 2: Okay, can you grasp that fifty three is not a

2605
02:15:29,279 --> 02:15:30,760
mirrored anything he's talking about is.

2606
02:15:31,039 --> 02:15:35,680
Speaker 1: I'm talking all the Messianic prophecies are a historical reference

2607
02:15:35,720 --> 02:15:38,239
to their day and to the coming time of the Messiah.

2608
02:15:38,520 --> 02:15:42,079
Speaker 2: What's the evidence of that? Is typically that way, Well,

2609
02:15:42,199 --> 02:15:45,039
where's evidence for that? Where's the evidence for that?

2610
02:15:45,479 --> 02:15:47,680
Speaker 1: Look at any look at any Jewish list of what

2611
02:15:47,720 --> 02:15:50,119
the Messianic prophecies are. They will talk the Jewish study

2612
02:15:50,199 --> 02:15:51,760
bibble that you have. I have that same Jewish study

2613
02:15:51,800 --> 02:15:54,439
Bible when they talk about Messianic prophecies and the Psalms,

2614
02:15:54,479 --> 02:15:57,119
they don't deny that it's also historically about David.

2615
02:15:58,960 --> 02:16:02,239
Speaker 2: H The idea that the Christian belief is very clear.

2616
02:16:02,479 --> 02:16:04,800
I just refuted you hang on, hang on that God

2617
02:16:04,880 --> 02:16:06,520
became a man and died on the back.

2618
02:16:06,600 --> 02:16:09,520
Speaker 1: That's not an answer to the question about predictions. It's

2619
02:16:09,560 --> 02:16:11,560
not an answer to what I just said about.

2620
02:16:12,760 --> 02:16:15,640
Speaker 2: Don't override me this, This claim which Paul says, and

2621
02:16:15,640 --> 02:16:18,960
when Corinthian's uh is actually referenced in the in the

2622
02:16:19,000 --> 02:16:24,319
Jewish Bible, is without any foundation whatsoever in the Jewish scriptures.

2623
02:16:24,439 --> 02:16:26,600
Isaiah fifty three doesn't get you out of that hole.

2624
02:16:26,640 --> 02:16:28,960
I'm afraid it doesn't mention a besides, doesn't mention the

2625
02:16:29,039 --> 02:16:30,439
death of missile. It doesn't mention.

2626
02:16:31,560 --> 02:16:35,719
Speaker 1: Categories that don't you appealed to the Jews? Do you

2627
02:16:35,760 --> 02:16:38,079
appel to the Jews? You appeal to the Jews, And

2628
02:16:38,200 --> 02:16:40,959
when Jews read the Psalms of David, they think they're messianic,

2629
02:16:41,079 --> 02:16:43,799
and they don't all mention the word Messiah. You made

2630
02:16:43,879 --> 02:16:46,840
up your own category to escape the force of the argument.

2631
02:16:47,200 --> 02:16:49,600
Speaker 2: Can you cite me who believes they're going to.

2632
02:16:51,200 --> 02:16:55,239
Speaker 1: We're going to move on two dollars? Enjoyed this traditional

2633
02:16:55,319 --> 02:16:58,559
Christian five pounds? Can you explain Paul using appeal to

2634
02:16:58,680 --> 02:17:05,760
authority with and vsa V his doctor analogy? I don't

2635
02:17:05,760 --> 02:17:07,520
know if you're asking me or him. I don't understand

2636
02:17:07,559 --> 02:17:10,600
the question. Actually, can let me let me reread this.

2637
02:17:10,719 --> 02:17:14,280
Can I explain Paul using appeal to authority as in

2638
02:17:14,440 --> 02:17:20,280
like a fallacy with scholars? Vsa V his doctor analogy.

2639
02:17:21,639 --> 02:17:23,399
I'm sorry, I can't. I don't understand the question.

2640
02:17:23,479 --> 02:17:28,120
Speaker 2: But uh, I'm opinion to authority when I see my doctor.

2641
02:17:28,440 --> 02:17:29,799
But you seem to think it's a fallacy.

2642
02:17:29,840 --> 02:17:32,280
Speaker 1: And how is it a fallacy because we're at the

2643
02:17:32,360 --> 02:17:34,559
level of paradigms, and at the level of paradigms, you

2644
02:17:34,639 --> 02:17:37,239
can't appeal to a lesser authority to validate the paradigm.

2645
02:17:37,600 --> 02:17:40,120
Speaker 2: Paradigms is something I'm asking.

2646
02:17:39,920 --> 02:17:41,799
Speaker 1: You paradigmatic questions, and you.

2647
02:17:41,840 --> 02:17:45,280
Speaker 2: Can't logical point a logical point. You said, it's a

2648
02:17:45,440 --> 02:17:46,319
logical fallacy.

2649
02:17:46,399 --> 02:17:49,079
Speaker 1: You don't understand what methologic is. You don't understand how

2650
02:17:49,079 --> 02:17:49,760
world us work.

2651
02:17:50,040 --> 02:17:53,680
Speaker 2: My doctor for him on his authority to correctly diagnose

2652
02:17:53,959 --> 02:17:54,559
my illness.

2653
02:17:54,799 --> 02:17:57,959
Speaker 1: It's not It is not a paradigmatic level question. Going

2654
02:17:58,040 --> 02:18:00,200
to the doctor and getting sick and using that as

2655
02:18:00,200 --> 02:18:04,520
an analogy is not a paradigmatic level question logical fallacy. Therefore,

2656
02:18:05,440 --> 02:18:08,360
it is a logical fallacy. Paul, go look up any

2657
02:18:08,440 --> 02:18:09,319
basic list of.

2658
02:18:11,680 --> 02:18:12,879
Speaker 2: I did a degree.

2659
02:18:13,040 --> 02:18:15,520
Speaker 1: Oh, nobody cares about your degree and where you studied.

2660
02:18:15,920 --> 02:18:19,840
That's a fallacy too, That's a fallacy. To appeal to consensus,

2661
02:18:20,040 --> 02:18:26,680
appeal to appeal to popularity, appeal to prestige, that's a fallacy. Yeah,

2662
02:18:27,799 --> 02:18:31,719
I do logic, that's a fallacy. How's that obsessed?

2663
02:18:32,000 --> 02:18:34,600
Speaker 2: I don't care it means anything. You're just throwing around

2664
02:18:34,639 --> 02:18:37,000
like confetti as if this proves anything. It doesn't prove anything.

2665
02:18:37,440 --> 02:18:39,840
Speaker 1: It proves that you don't know basic logic. That's why

2666
02:18:39,920 --> 02:18:40,639
you lost the debate.

2667
02:18:42,120 --> 02:18:44,559
Speaker 2: I'll go to my library, I show the textbooks I use.

2668
02:18:46,200 --> 02:18:48,239
Speaker 1: Are you are you? Are you that arrogant that we

2669
02:18:48,440 --> 02:18:51,040
care that you go to some fancy library and pull

2670
02:18:51,120 --> 02:18:55,319
up textbooks. Nobody cares about where you went to school.

2671
02:18:55,639 --> 02:18:58,520
It's how a debate works. You lost because you didn't

2672
02:18:58,559 --> 02:19:00,600
know what a basic fallacy was. That's where he lost

2673
02:19:00,600 --> 02:19:00,920
the debate.

2674
02:19:01,559 --> 02:19:04,479
Speaker 2: You lost because you never actually pointed out not a fallacy,

2675
02:19:05,239 --> 02:19:06,040
it's not a fallacy.

2676
02:19:06,719 --> 02:19:08,920
Speaker 1: Appeal to authority as a fallacy.

2677
02:19:09,200 --> 02:19:13,719
Speaker 2: Why is it? Just tell me, just tell me now

2678
02:19:13,959 --> 02:19:14,840
why it's a fallacy.

2679
02:19:14,959 --> 02:19:17,360
Speaker 1: Don't for the fifth time, for the fifth time. It's

2680
02:19:17,360 --> 02:19:21,840
an appeal to authorities, because, especially at the paradigm level,

2681
02:19:22,159 --> 02:19:24,479
you can't appeal to a lesser authority to uh to

2682
02:19:24,680 --> 02:19:28,280
vindicate something that is paradigmatic. Okay, that's why that.

2683
02:19:30,799 --> 02:19:32,760
Speaker 2: Sentence Jane, I didn't understand that sentence.

2684
02:19:32,799 --> 02:19:34,440
Speaker 1: I know you didn't understand that sentence. That's why I've

2685
02:19:34,479 --> 02:19:36,600
repeated it ten times in the debate. I still want

2686
02:19:36,680 --> 02:19:39,040
So we're done, Okay, we can. I can't keep going

2687
02:19:39,079 --> 02:19:40,559
on this all day. We're going for a long time.

2688
02:19:40,600 --> 02:19:42,200
I've got other things. I got it. We can. We

2689
02:19:42,280 --> 02:19:45,319
can schedule another debate. This has been. This has been

2690
02:19:45,399 --> 02:19:48,920
I think, really cool again. So Paul's I'll have his

2691
02:19:49,079 --> 02:19:51,639
links below. I'm glad I got he did. Don't want

2692
02:19:51,680 --> 02:19:54,079
to get too heated, don't want things to continue on.

2693
02:19:55,760 --> 02:19:57,319
I'm gonna have to get out here in a minute.

2694
02:19:57,319 --> 02:19:58,719
I can't keep going forever, even though this was a

2695
02:19:58,760 --> 02:20:01,280
lot of fun. Okay, So so thank you guys, Paul,

2696
02:20:01,360 --> 02:20:04,159
thank you very much. I appreciate it. Forgive me if

2697
02:20:04,200 --> 02:20:07,799
I was too passionate, but I do get very passionate

2698
02:20:07,840 --> 02:20:08,120
about this.

2699
02:20:08,479 --> 02:20:09,559
Speaker 2: That's fine, don't worry.

2700
02:20:09,639 --> 02:20:09,760
Speaker 1: Jay.

2701
02:20:09,799 --> 02:20:12,559
Speaker 2: I like you, Jay. Finally, I like your passion. I

2702
02:20:12,600 --> 02:20:16,079
appreciate your integrity, I appreciate your passion for truth, passion

2703
02:20:16,159 --> 02:20:20,879
for the truth. And we can certainly schedule another or

2704
02:20:21,680 --> 02:20:25,040
schedule schedule another event at some time in the future.

2705
02:20:25,040 --> 02:20:26,879
Speaker 1: All right, And yeah, maybe we'll pick a different sort

2706
02:20:26,920 --> 02:20:29,959
of more specified topic, so we're not kind of doing everything.

2707
02:20:30,000 --> 02:20:32,159
Speaker 2: Maybe that's a very good point. I would like to

2708
02:20:32,280 --> 02:20:34,920
narrow this down because it's a rush thing and I'm thinking,

2709
02:20:35,040 --> 02:20:36,239
oh my god, there's ten points I got.

2710
02:20:36,600 --> 02:20:39,280
Speaker 1: You know me too, I've got a whole bunch of notes.

2711
02:20:39,319 --> 02:20:41,239
But we do have one last question here, all right,

2712
02:20:41,280 --> 02:20:44,559
So mister Williams, can you talk to a monk to

2713
02:20:44,639 --> 02:20:46,959
guide you to clean your news, to find God in

2714
02:20:47,040 --> 02:20:48,200
your heart? And then debate?

2715
02:20:49,360 --> 02:20:52,799
Speaker 2: So that's I I didn't even understand the question. What

2716
02:20:52,879 --> 02:20:53,200
was the question?

2717
02:20:53,239 --> 02:20:56,040
Speaker 1: Again? Part of the question was would you be willing

2718
02:20:56,079 --> 02:21:00,280
to go talk to a monastic person and learn about

2719
02:21:01,159 --> 02:21:03,520
the Orthodox Church? As I think he's getting.

2720
02:21:03,639 --> 02:21:05,879
Speaker 2: Well, what I did was when I was a I

2721
02:21:05,920 --> 02:21:07,600
went to Court Abbey on the Isle of Wight, which

2722
02:21:07,600 --> 02:21:11,360
is a very conservative, traditional Catholic monastery. It's it's a

2723
02:21:11,520 --> 02:21:14,360
contemplate to community and I've often been there on retreat,

2724
02:21:14,440 --> 02:21:17,920
not as a Muslim, but before I did. So, you know,

2725
02:21:18,319 --> 02:21:21,559
I like monasteries. I like the monastic life. I like

2726
02:21:21,680 --> 02:21:24,959
the silence and the reverence and the spirituality and the

2727
02:21:24,959 --> 02:21:28,120
good food usually, so I don't feel need now to

2728
02:21:28,200 --> 02:21:29,280
go back to a monastery and.

2729
02:21:29,280 --> 02:21:29,799
Speaker 1: Hang out there.

2730
02:21:31,280 --> 02:21:31,360
Speaker 2: Uh.

2731
02:21:31,600 --> 02:21:33,520
Speaker 1: I think they were talking about Orthodox monster, which would

2732
02:21:33,520 --> 02:21:36,399
be which would would be different from real usson. But anyway,

2733
02:21:36,479 --> 02:21:38,000
all right, we got I'm going to have to end it.

2734
02:21:38,360 --> 02:21:41,719
This this has gone on. It's very it was very enjoyable.

2735
02:21:42,639 --> 02:21:46,360
I appreciate his approach. He was able to deal with

2736
02:21:46,479 --> 02:21:50,920
my heatedness. And God bless everybody. Thank you for watching.

2737
02:21:51,079 --> 02:21:54,440
And again I stress you can upload this, this discussion,

2738
02:21:54,520 --> 02:21:56,879
but please, that doesn't that's not giving you permission to

2739
02:21:56,959 --> 02:21:58,920
upload all of my other videos and talk to those

2740
02:21:58,959 --> 02:22:00,959
are online. Ask me for permission. This one you can

2741
02:22:01,040 --> 02:22:03,399
upload as long as you put links to the talk

2742
02:22:04,239 --> 02:22:06,319
and anyway, have a good night. Thank you very much.

2743
02:22:06,920 --> 02:22:07,719
Speaker 2: So i'mily come