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Every 57 00:02:27.280 --> 00:02:30.960 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 58 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:35.240 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 59 00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:39.039 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 60 00:02:48.520 --> 00:02:52.080 Good Evening. For the past forty years, Charles Manson has 61 00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:55.879 languished in prison for his participation in the Manson Family 62 00:02:55.960 --> 00:03:00.120 murders of nineteen sixty nine. He's America's icon of evil, 63 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:03.400 the one who brought down the curtain on the nineteen sixties. 64 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:07.199 He has never been a quiet inmate, however, from his 65 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:10.759 unbridled outburst of rage to his tender acts of generosity, 66 00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:13.919 he makes his presence felt to everyone around him. He 67 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:17.000 inspires awe in other inmates, he cozies up the prison 68 00:03:17.000 --> 00:03:19.319 guards who are eager to do him favors, and he 69 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:23.159 is responsible for countless staff transfers within and outside of 70 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:28.360 the institution. This book details the dramatic journey of Willy Mendez, 71 00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:31.039 a troubled inmate housed next to the serial killer for 72 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:35.319 more than a year. Willy became institutionalized after repeated violations 73 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:38.400 of the law, including attempted murder and armed robbery. He 74 00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:41.680 is serving a sixty eight year prison sentence. From his 75 00:03:41.719 --> 00:03:46.120 initial feelings of contempt toward the aging killer, Willie, nicknamed 76 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:48.960 Boxcar by Manson, traveled to a place of openness and 77 00:03:49.039 --> 00:03:52.159 acceptance of the old man's ideas. Over time, he began 78 00:03:52.240 --> 00:03:55.639 to defer more and more to Manson without reservation. This 79 00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:58.159 is a tale of growth and maturity that contains intimate 80 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:02.000 details and shocking jail house sekstz. Willie shares an insider's 81 00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:06.479 view of Charles Manson, his crazy behavior, his whispered confessions, 82 00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:11.560 and is sometimes profound wisdom. Charlie speaks openly about his sexuality, 83 00:04:11.639 --> 00:04:15.439 share some details of the tait In LaBianca murders, and 84 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:18.040 relates his childhood experience of being forced to wear a 85 00:04:18.160 --> 00:04:21.560 dressed to school. The book that we're featuring thisce evning 86 00:04:21.639 --> 00:04:25.160 is Charles Manson Behind Bars, the crazy antics and amazing 87 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:28.839 revelations of America's icon of Evil, with my special guest 88 00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:32.759 journalists and author Mark Hewitt. Welcome to the program, and 89 00:04:32.800 --> 00:04:34.519 thank you very much. To agreeing to this interview. 90 00:04:34.560 --> 00:04:37.560 Mark Hewitt, Thank you, Dan, thank you for having me. 91 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:38.360 I appreciate it. 92 00:04:39.199 --> 00:04:41.759 Thank you very much. Thank you for coming on and 93 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:46.040 talking about a subject that is important to people, especially 94 00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:51.120 true crime readers and listeners for many, many years. Again, 95 00:04:51.959 --> 00:04:56.279 just a statistic that some people talk about true crime books, 96 00:04:56.000 --> 00:05:01.399 and it seems that the lesser educated people talk about 97 00:05:01.399 --> 00:05:04.399 in Cold Blood but really helter skelter, even just for 98 00:05:04.680 --> 00:05:09.240 the beginning of the number of great books about Charles 99 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:12.759 Manson sold seven million copies to date. So it is 100 00:05:12.800 --> 00:05:15.480 a subject that many, many people are interested in. So 101 00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:17.879 thank you for coming on talking about this book, Charles 102 00:05:17.959 --> 00:05:22.519 Manson Behind Bars. Now, one of the questions I normally 103 00:05:22.519 --> 00:05:26.959 asked him, without giving too much away, what brought you 104 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:31.439 to this project, Charles Manson Behind Bars? Before we get 105 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:34.600 into all the details, how this came about, this faithful 106 00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:40.120 turn of events, tell us how you came, why you 107 00:05:40.160 --> 00:05:42.480 were compelled, and why did you want to write Charles 108 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:43.519 Manson Behind Bars. 109 00:05:44.279 --> 00:05:45.560 Well, it's a fascinating story. 110 00:05:45.639 --> 00:05:45.839 Dan. 111 00:05:46.399 --> 00:05:48.680 The first book that I published back in two thousand 112 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:51.920 and four was actually a self help book. It's entitled 113 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:57.560 Yes I Can't Change, and in the process of brainstorming 114 00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:00.720 about ways in which I could promote them book. The 115 00:06:00.800 --> 00:06:04.120 idea came to me, who could benefit more from a 116 00:06:04.120 --> 00:06:08.759 self help book than somebody who was behind bars, especially 117 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:12.720 a high profile criminal. And so from that idea, I 118 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:16.439 began to write a number of high profile criminals throughout 119 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:19.639 the United States, and I put a lot of thought 120 00:06:19.720 --> 00:06:22.560 into how I would get letters back from them, because 121 00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:25.720 I'm sure they get a lot of letters from media, 122 00:06:25.959 --> 00:06:31.199 from fans or from whatever. And I wrote and suggested 123 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:33.560 that they read my book, or offered to have them 124 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:37.040 read my book. And in part of my brainstorming, I thought, 125 00:06:37.120 --> 00:06:39.839 in writing Manson, how could I get him to write back? 126 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:43.639 And so I began a letter, dear mister Manson, I 127 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:48.240 need your help, and a few weeks later he wrote 128 00:06:48.279 --> 00:06:51.079 back to me, and then from that we began to 129 00:06:51.120 --> 00:06:54.079 correspond a little bit. I told him of some of 130 00:06:54.120 --> 00:06:57.480 my ideas about change and asked him some ideas of 131 00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:01.600 what his thoughts were unchange. In the process of interacting 132 00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:03.839 with him, he introduced me to a man who was 133 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:07.720 selled next to him, who he became quite intimate with. 134 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:11.839 They would regularly spend four to six hours in an 135 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:16.240 evening or at nighttime talking with one another between cells. 136 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:20.639 And this is Willy Mendez, my co author. I began 137 00:07:20.720 --> 00:07:25.680 to correspond with Mendez, and in the course of our interactions, 138 00:07:25.720 --> 00:07:28.439 I began to realize that Willie had an awful lot 139 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:33.079 of interesting stories about Manson, and that began our collaborative 140 00:07:33.079 --> 00:07:34.680 effort of putting this book together. 141 00:07:37.879 --> 00:07:42.600 Now, how many years did you did you write Charles 142 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:45.920 Manson before you met this Willy Mendez. 143 00:07:47.199 --> 00:07:52.879 I actually met Willy after Manson stopped writing to me. 144 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:57.759 Willie wrote me after he had been transferred out of Corkoran. 145 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:01.399 He was in Pleasant Valley State Prison at the time 146 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:03.839 that he started to correspond with me. But he said, 147 00:08:04.839 --> 00:08:07.959 you know I got I got your address from Manson 148 00:08:08.040 --> 00:08:10.399 and he said you were an interesting person. In fact, 149 00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:14.199 in some of our correspondents with my correspondence with Manson, 150 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:18.759 Manson said that my outlook on life, my positive nature, 151 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:23.319 reminded him of box Car. Box Car is the nickname 152 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:27.240 that Manson gave to Willie because it made him think 153 00:08:27.279 --> 00:08:30.839 of Willie Nelson or Willie box Car Nelson. So he 154 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:34.159 just started calling Willie box Car. That was his nickname. 155 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:40.159 And so I had I had corresponded with Manson maybe 156 00:08:40.200 --> 00:08:42.879 ten years and then uh, and then I began to 157 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:44.639 get letters from Willie. 158 00:08:47.080 --> 00:08:51.279 Now, the obviously the letters that the revelations will say 159 00:08:51.399 --> 00:08:56.080 that that Charles Manson imparts to Willie are were different 160 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:00.799 than what he would correspond uh say, correspondence in the 161 00:09:00.840 --> 00:09:05.679 mail with you over that ten year period. What was 162 00:09:05.720 --> 00:09:11.039 the content? I know you talked about ways of change, 163 00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:14.480 but in terms of I won't say the difference because 164 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:16.360 we can go into a long thing about that. But 165 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:22.639 what what was your correspondence limited to? We'll say before 166 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:26.960 we get into what this other these other revelations all include. 167 00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:34.320 My correspondence with Charlie was very very limited. Manson is 168 00:09:34.360 --> 00:09:37.440 on his own wavelength, and you ask him a direct question, 169 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:41.240 he doesn't give you a direct answer. You try to 170 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:44.480 engage him on something and he he's on he's on 171 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:49.120 his own Uh, he has his own message. And frequently 172 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:51.039 the letters that I would get from him would be 173 00:09:51.080 --> 00:09:53.720 a series of scraps of paper, and it wasn't always 174 00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:57.399 clear which scrap was first and which scrap was second. 175 00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:01.120 Then it wasn't clear that there was any theme running 176 00:10:01.159 --> 00:10:04.519 through anything that he was saying. So even to try 177 00:10:04.519 --> 00:10:06.799 to quote Manson or to try to make sense of 178 00:10:06.840 --> 00:10:09.639 a lot of what he said to me is probably 179 00:10:09.919 --> 00:10:14.679 a very difficult, difficult task. It wasn't until I began 180 00:10:14.759 --> 00:10:18.440 corresponding with Willie that I began to get what I 181 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:24.559 would say would be clear, concise stories with a coherent theme. 182 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:29.159 I guess, did you find it? It was well worth 183 00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:32.480 that ten year correspondence to sort of warm you up 184 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:36.840 to the character of Charles Manson? And did that really 185 00:10:36.879 --> 00:10:41.279 help you in terms of the kinds of information that 186 00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:45.320 you wanted to get from Willy Mendez and you were 187 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:49.600 able to Were you able to comprehend Charles Manson any 188 00:10:49.639 --> 00:10:52.919 better with his previous ten years of correspondence yourself? 189 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:59.320 To a limited degree? Charles is kind of stuck in 190 00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:02.480 the nineteen six because he's in nineteen seventies. His idea 191 00:11:02.519 --> 00:11:05.840 is his vocabulary, his turns of phrases are all from 192 00:11:05.919 --> 00:11:09.879 the nineteen seventies, And according to Willie, that's what happens 193 00:11:09.879 --> 00:11:11.600 to people who are in prison for a long time. 194 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:14.440 They get stuck in the generation that they went into prison. 195 00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:18.320 I don't know that I got a whole lot of 196 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:24.320 profound insights into Manson in corresponding with him, but I 197 00:11:24.360 --> 00:11:26.159 did get kind of a sense of who he is 198 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:31.360 and what he stands for, and a lot of it 199 00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:38.919 is not clear, not a direct statement. He meanders so 200 00:11:39.039 --> 00:11:41.799 much in his writing and his talking that it's hard 201 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:45.200 to really understand his philosophy. I guess I would describe 202 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:49.279 his philosophy as being very eclectic. He'll take a bit 203 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:53.200 from Christianity, He'll take a little bit from scientology. He's 204 00:11:53.480 --> 00:11:59.399 studied hypnotism, and he's been involved in the Church of Satan, 205 00:11:59.480 --> 00:12:02.759 and so he collects a few ideas and phrases from 206 00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:05.360 each of these and kind of melds them together. It's 207 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:09.759 more of a philosophy of I would describe as being 208 00:12:10.360 --> 00:12:14.480 a utilitarian. Whatever is useful, he'll throw out a quote, 209 00:12:14.519 --> 00:12:15.399 or he'll say something. 210 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:19.399 Yeah. This is certainly a mixed bag of a little 211 00:12:19.399 --> 00:12:24.200 bit of Eastern philosophy. But sometimes it almost seems confused 212 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:31.480 because it's such a mix of sometimes even almost contradictory 213 00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:40.399 of philosophy. So now let's talk about Willie Mendez. Guermo E. Mendez, 214 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:45.440 your co author, tell us first before we like, I 215 00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:49.720 like to talk a little bit about of his actual 216 00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:55.399 participation in this. Obviously he gathers this information. But before 217 00:12:55.519 --> 00:13:00.240 you were you decided to do this project, you must 218 00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:04.240 have wanted to get a very articulate prisoner, not a 219 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:10.720 inarticulate prisoner. Tell us about that decision making process. Of course, 220 00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:13.200 you're getting. What you're saying too, is you're getting information 221 00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:16.960 that you couldn't get yourself in no shape or form. 222 00:13:17.559 --> 00:13:21.120 But at the same time, was he vetted for any 223 00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:24.679 particular that you were anything that you were particularly looking for, 224 00:13:25.240 --> 00:13:27.240 like being particularly articulate. 225 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:32.080 That's a very important question you ask, because I would 226 00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:34.519 first say that I wasn't looking to write this book 227 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:39.519 until I got to know WILLI. Corresponding with Manson, never 228 00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:41.600 gave me the inpook. It never gave me the idea 229 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:44.120 that any book could come out of it. And it 230 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:47.919 wasn't until discussing with Willy and hearing some of these 231 00:13:47.919 --> 00:13:51.519 stories that the idea came about to put together a book. 232 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:54.320 I think one of the strengths of the book is 233 00:13:54.360 --> 00:13:58.240 that it's the first book that actually comes from behind bars. 234 00:13:58.519 --> 00:14:04.000 It was largely written by Willy. It's Willy's story. I 235 00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:07.879 am the one who kind of edited it. WILLI wrote 236 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:10.519 to me pages and pages and pages of stuff in 237 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:13.960 really tiny print, sometimes that it was difficult for me 238 00:14:14.080 --> 00:14:18.600 to actually to read and comprehend what he was getting at. 239 00:14:18.759 --> 00:14:22.759 But I put a lot of time into rewriting it 240 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:26.960 and reorganizing it. Willy doesn't have a lot of education, 241 00:14:27.159 --> 00:14:30.000 so he just kind of jumped from topic to topic, 242 00:14:30.039 --> 00:14:31.879 and it was up to me to sort it all 243 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:36.559 through and write a comprehensive story. That's the strength of 244 00:14:36.600 --> 00:14:39.600 the book. The weakness of the book is that because 245 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:43.559 it's from behind bars, because it's from prison, there's a 246 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:47.200 question about the truthfulness of anything that Willy has said 247 00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:50.080 to me. He could have made up some of the stories, 248 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:54.600 he could have exaggerated, so you kind of have to 249 00:14:54.679 --> 00:14:56.600 take it with a grain of salt. This is one 250 00:14:56.639 --> 00:15:01.960 prisoner writing about another prisoner well, and compounded with that 251 00:15:02.120 --> 00:15:04.480 is the fact that anything that Charles Manson told him 252 00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:07.960 may have been true or not true, And so you 253 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:11.840 get a bit of a Chinese Chinese chain of communication 254 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:17.159 of trying to pass this information along. But in all things, 255 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:22.279 I attempted to be as truthful and honest as possible, 256 00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:26.679 even going back to Willie and saying here's the story 257 00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:30.679 that I'm writing, and showing him rough drafts and saying, now, 258 00:15:30.759 --> 00:15:33.919 is this accurate? Can you testify? Can you verify that 259 00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:36.440 what you have told me is true or not? And 260 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:38.600 so we would discuss a lot of things that way. 261 00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:42.639 So there always is that question of how true is it. 262 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:47.799 I have found Willie very honest in dealing with me. 263 00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:51.039 I think as far as him being in prison and 264 00:15:51.080 --> 00:15:54.559 being a prisoner, what he probably deals with is a 265 00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:57.799 certain amount of impulsiveness. He is a guy who does 266 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:01.480 something first and then thinks about it later, if at all, 267 00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:04.799 And so he tries to be honest. He tries to 268 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:07.600 be a good person, and I would describe him as 269 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:11.200 somebody who is attempting to be good. He may be 270 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.519 dealing with fetal alcohol syndrome. I'm not sure if that's 271 00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:19.639 a that's operative in his life, but it's it's his 272 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:23.519 impulsiveness that I think got him into trouble. 273 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:24.080 He is. 274 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:28.200 He has been charged with over a dozen felonies, including 275 00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:32.320 armed robbery and attempted murder. He is likely a lifer. 276 00:16:33.159 --> 00:16:36.440 He there's a good chance that if he ever does 277 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:38.519 get out, he will be a very old man, if 278 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:42.159 at all. So that's kind of a little bit about 279 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:45.360 who he is. And you know, I just I did 280 00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:47.120 the best I could and with with what I had 281 00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:49.200 to work with, and that's the book, is what came 282 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:49.720 out of it. 283 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:53.799 Now, in terms of credibility, I understand the thing is 284 00:16:53.840 --> 00:16:55.919 that people could say, you know, an inmate could lie, 285 00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:59.600 you know, and Magine has been notorious for changing stories 286 00:16:59.639 --> 00:17:03.440 and probably lying as well. At least that's the impression 287 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:06.519 that most people have that he can certainly lie with 288 00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:09.079 the best of them. But the thing is is that 289 00:17:09.279 --> 00:17:12.160 the real evidence that's compelling to most people is that 290 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:17.880 how much of a well a driving force was Willy 291 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:20.480 in terms of this. Was he one of these kinds 292 00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:24.160 of people that goes into you know, he didn't. He 293 00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:27.400 got transferred because of this murder of his cellmate, who 294 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:30.279 was a pedophile, almost murder of his cellmate, So he 295 00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:33.200 gets transferred to where the bad guys are and that's 296 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:37.960 Charles Manson. But was there any indication, Was there any 297 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:40.799 evidence that he was the kind of guy looking for publicity, 298 00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:43.880 looking for a book deal, had aspirations to write a book, 299 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:46.759 had connections like that, somebody had planning the idea. Is 300 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:48.759 there any evidence of that? And that's the kind of 301 00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:51.640 credibility that I think would be in question. 302 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:55.599 Yeah, Yeah, I saw none of that. He did tell 303 00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:59.440 me in our correspondence that being next to Manson, Manson 304 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:01.200 would say thing to him like, well, you're going to 305 00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:04.039 be famous now because you're friends with me, and you're 306 00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:07.519 part of history, and you're a really important person, probably 307 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:09.319 some of the same stuff that he did to build 308 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:12.400 up the members of his family back in sixty nine, 309 00:18:13.119 --> 00:18:16.119 who went so far as to carry out murders for him. 310 00:18:16.680 --> 00:18:22.599 But Willie and talking with me, didn't reach out to 311 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:24.640 me and say, hey, let's write a book, let's do this, 312 00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:27.359 let's do that. It was I was the one who 313 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:31.960 made the suggestion after hearing some of his stories. In fact, 314 00:18:32.359 --> 00:18:36.200 I don't think he's ever asked me for anything as 315 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:39.359 far as sending him things, giving him cash or whatever. 316 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:45.839 It's never been a relationship like that. So I didn't 317 00:18:45.880 --> 00:18:47.640 get the sense that he's a gold digger and that 318 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:50.640 he was looking for fame or looking to write a book. 319 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:55.559 As I say, it was my idea. 320 00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:59.960 Now we'll set the environment here, the background of how 321 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:03.599 all this all occurred and under what kinds of conditions 322 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:07.960 in terms of living arrangements, and you vividly portray that 323 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:13.079 in the book, and it's again very very vivid portrayal 324 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:21.680 talk about Corcoran for State prison in California, and there's 325 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:26.799 fifteen other high profile inmates in this protective housing unit. 326 00:19:28.359 --> 00:19:32.799 Tell us about life in this protective housing unit for 327 00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:40.319 Charles Manson and what first Guillermo Willy basically observes upon 328 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:42.599 meeting Charles Manson in this environment. 329 00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:47.000 Well, I appreciate that you're pointing out that it was 330 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:49.279 a very vivid picture that we paint in the book 331 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:52.359 of Prison Life, because that's one of the things that 332 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:56.559 I regularly asked Willy to do, is to say what 333 00:19:56.640 --> 00:19:59.880 he saw, what he felt, what colors, what pictures can 334 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:03.160 he paint with words of exactly what he felt, what 335 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:06.880 he experienced. And I think we did a pretty good 336 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:11.000 job of getting that putting that in the book. Building 337 00:20:11.079 --> 00:20:17.160 four is a notorious building in Corkoran, corkorans and Central California, 338 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:21.279 about halfway between Los Angeles and San Francisco in the 339 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:28.480 California Central Valley. It's a building four is designated for 340 00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:32.559 high profile criminals. You need to do an awful lot 341 00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:37.640 to get housed in Building four. The occupants of Building 342 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:40.799 four were watching the Michael Jackson trial very closely way 343 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:45.279 back in when was that five or six something like that. 344 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:48.680 The reason being is because if Michael Jackson had been convicted, 345 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:50.680 it's quite likely that he would have ended up in 346 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:54.799 Building four. Building four has a higher ratio of guards 347 00:20:54.839 --> 00:21:01.720 to prisoners. Each prison cell is solitary confinement. There's only 348 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:06.680 one prison or per room or per cell. Each cell 349 00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:13.079 has additional precautions against breaking in from other prisoners. Each 350 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:15.480 cell has a padlock on it that needs to be 351 00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:21.119 manually opened with a key, in addition to the mass 352 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:28.720 electronics door openings that's controlled from a distance. The building 353 00:21:28.759 --> 00:21:34.000 is patrolled by officers who have rifles and shotguns and 354 00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:37.519 the whole host of other weapons with them because they 355 00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:42.599 know that at a moment's notice, something could break out 356 00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:45.200 to get to building. For you either have to be 357 00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:48.880 a high profile criminal and you know as Charles Manson 358 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:52.720 is there, but also Sir Hand, Sir Han the the 359 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:57.559 person who was convicted of assassinating Robert Kennedy, and there 360 00:21:57.559 --> 00:21:59.960 are other members who other people who are there who 361 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.880 have left prison gangs or left gangs. The reason is 362 00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:09.519 because they are marked individuals and they are other other 363 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:13.400 gang members are attempting to kill them for having left 364 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:17.200 their gang, and that was Willie's situation as well. He 365 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:21.160 left his gang as well as being involved in these 366 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:25.920 very many felonies, so as a as a marked man, 367 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:28.200 that's why he ended up in Building four. 368 00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:33.480 And why is Charles Manson marked man? Because the heinous, 369 00:22:33.720 --> 00:22:38.279 heineousness of his crimes, the eight eight month pregnant Sharon Tate. 370 00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:41.240 Or is it because he's a celebrity and somebody can 371 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:43.880 gain notoriety by just by killing him. 372 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.359 That's that's the latter of what you said. Anybody who 373 00:22:47.440 --> 00:22:50.279 kills Charles Manson will have their name go down in 374 00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:53.759 history as as the killer of Charles Manson. The same 375 00:22:53.799 --> 00:22:55.599 way we never would have heard of Sir Hans Sir 376 00:22:55.640 --> 00:22:58.440 Han if he hadn't killed Robert Kennedy. We never would 377 00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:02.319 have heard of Mark Chapman. We never would have heard 378 00:23:02.359 --> 00:23:06.519 of you know, these other individuals who have killed high 379 00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:11.839 profile and high profile people. So there are regularly death 380 00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:16.480 threats on Charlie. There are a lot of lifetime criminals 381 00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:18.519 who would love to make a name for themselves just 382 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:21.839 by killing him, and there have been numerous attacks on 383 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:24.920 his life over the past forty years in prison. He 384 00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:29.079 has been poisoned, he has had acids, thrown at him. 385 00:23:29.519 --> 00:23:32.400 He has had people run at him and swing with 386 00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:38.640 their fifths. So he lives a very precarious existence. 387 00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:45.640 And Charles Manson's eighty years old. I believe this year. 388 00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:47.599 In November he will be eighty up. Correct. 389 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:55.440 Yeah, Now, tell us about what Willie Mendez observed about 390 00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:58.039 Charles Manson being this person that has had all these 391 00:23:58.079 --> 00:24:03.000 death threats, that is frightened of being poisoned, frightened of 392 00:24:03.039 --> 00:24:08.200 people stealing stuff from a momentos from his cell. So 393 00:24:08.279 --> 00:24:11.839 what does this, you know, manifest itself in terms of 394 00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:14.039 behavior for Charles Manson and. 395 00:24:15.799 --> 00:24:19.039 Willy noticed a lot of paranoid behavior on the part 396 00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:22.799 of Manson. He was afraid of people coming into his cell, 397 00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:25.559 he was afraid of going out of his cell. In fact, 398 00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:28.680 he could go for months at a time without coming out. 399 00:24:29.079 --> 00:24:31.319 He would just wash up in his sink in the 400 00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:35.480 cell and stay inside. It would only be every couple 401 00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:37.519