WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.800 --> 00:00:11.439 Hello, and welcome to Mythic Mind, where we pursue wisdom 2 00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:15.199 on the past between primary secondary worlds. I'm doctor Andrew Snyder, 3 00:00:15.400 --> 00:00:23.280 and I'm glad that you're here. Hey there, welcome back. Today. 4 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:25.160 We're going to be getting back to our book club 5 00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:28.519 on Augustin's Confessions, as I'm joined by Chase and Kyle 6 00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:31.280 to talk about books five and six. But before we 7 00:00:31.320 --> 00:00:33.359 get there, I want to give you some quick updates. 8 00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:36.840 First of all, as a reminder, I am resurrecting my 9 00:00:37.079 --> 00:00:40.479 sub stack on Tolkien's Letters, which provides a brief summary 10 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:43.719 and more importantly, a reflection on each of Tolkien's letters. 11 00:00:43.759 --> 00:00:46.439 And now that I'm bringing that back, I'm doing so 12 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:49.399 with the revised and the expanded edition of his Letters, 13 00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:51.719 and so I'm going to go back and take a 14 00:00:51.719 --> 00:00:53.600 look at some of the new letters that I had 15 00:00:53.640 --> 00:00:56.280 missed the first time around with the old edition, and 16 00:00:56.320 --> 00:01:01.000 so that is starting up right away. I'm gonna leave 17 00:01:01.079 --> 00:01:03.119 a link in the show notes. I said that last time, 18 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:04.920 but I don't think I did, so I'm actually gonna 19 00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:06.680 leave that link in the show notes this time. I 20 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:08.239 go ahead and subscribe to that so you don't miss it. 21 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:12.200 Every other edition in that subsac series is free and 22 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:16.840 every other every other article is behind a small paywall 23 00:01:16.879 --> 00:01:20.599 of five dollars a month. However, if you become a 24 00:01:20.799 --> 00:01:24.519 Tier two patron over here at Mythic Mind, then every 25 00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:26.879 Tuesday you're going to get my reading of one of 26 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:28.920 those articles. 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And one last thing before we get into 56 00:02:53.879 --> 00:02:56.840 our conversation with some of the various things that are 57 00:02:56.840 --> 00:02:59.280 happening right now, I've reworked the schedule a little bit. 58 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:02.520 You may have noticed are that this episode was released 59 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:05.360 on a Monday, as opposed to the regular Tuesday, and 60 00:03:05.400 --> 00:03:08.319 so moving forward, the main Mythic Mind podcast, this one 61 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:12.919 right here will be released publicly on Mondays. On Tuesday 62 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:18.800 will be our Tier two Patron higher substack readings every 63 00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:22.120 other Wednesday, we have our Movies and Shows podcast, and 64 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:26.599 then currently at least for a short time, every single Friday, 65 00:03:26.599 --> 00:03:29.800 where we have an episode from the Mythic Mind Games podcast. 66 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:32.719 It just so happened with the way schedule worked out 67 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:35.520 with recordings and guests and whatnot, that I end up 68 00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:39.120 with a small stockpile of episodes, and so I decided 69 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:42.439 to release those on a weekly basis for now. I 70 00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:44.639 would love to do all these podcasts on a weekly basis, 71 00:03:44.680 --> 00:03:47.960 maybe even more frequently than that, but I just I 72 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:49.680 really would need the support to be able to turn 73 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:52.159 away from other bill paying endeavors to do that. And 74 00:03:52.199 --> 00:03:55.319 so if you want to help me to increase frequency 75 00:03:55.319 --> 00:03:57.360 on an ongoing basis, head over to patreon dot com 76 00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:00.479 slash Mythic mind But for now you can and over 77 00:04:00.520 --> 00:04:03.520 on the Mythic Mind Games podcast you can expect an 78 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:06.240 episode every week at least for a little while. All right, 79 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:08.960 with all of that said, let's go ahead and get 80 00:04:09.000 --> 00:04:13.240 into our conversation with Chase and Kyle on Augustine's Confessions 81 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:20.879 books five and six. Welcome back after about a month 82 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:25.639 of a break there. Welcome to Chase and Kyle, and 83 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:27.600 I guess we lost some people along the way. I 84 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:30.560 guess I don't know. They were two convicted. They just 85 00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:35.160 couldn't stand it anymore dealing with these deep studies. But 86 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:39.000 we are returning to talk about books five and six 87 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:41.600 of Augustin's Confessions. I think we want to start off 88 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:45.040 by just reading first. I don't know half of the 89 00:04:45.079 --> 00:04:48.480 first paragraph or so, to just set the tones that 90 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:51.160 set the mood of what we're doing here. Augustin writes, 91 00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:54.839 receive the sacrifice of my confessions, offered by my tongue, 92 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:57.800 which thou didst form, and hast moved to confess unto 93 00:04:57.839 --> 00:05:02.360 thy name. Heal thou all my be, and they shall say, Lord, 94 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:05.360 who is like to thee, A man who makes confession 95 00:05:05.399 --> 00:05:08.680 to THEE does not thereby give THEE any information as 96 00:05:08.680 --> 00:05:12.319 to what is happening within him. The closed heart does 97 00:05:12.319 --> 00:05:16.160 not close out thy eye, nor the heart's hardness resist 98 00:05:16.279 --> 00:05:19.160 thy hand, for thou dost open it at thy pleasure, 99 00:05:19.399 --> 00:05:22.279 whether for mercy or for justice. And there is nothing 100 00:05:22.279 --> 00:05:25.199 that can hide itself from thy heat. So he just 101 00:05:25.279 --> 00:05:27.959 starts off very similar to how he usually starts off 102 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:33.839 these books, well, confessing himself before God, also raising some 103 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:37.480 of these questions. He kind of asking the question of well, 104 00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:40.000 why am I making confessions to God who already knows 105 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:41.800 what's going on in my own heart. It's the kind 106 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:44.600 of question that we've all probably thought about from time 107 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:48.199 to time of what's the point of praying to a 108 00:05:48.199 --> 00:05:49.839 God who already knows what we have to say? 109 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:50.720 Right? 110 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:53.839 There's that kind of intellectual problem there. Even Boethius deals 111 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:56.040 with that question, what's the point of praying if God 112 00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:58.040 already knows what I'm going to pray? He knows what 113 00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:00.360 I have to say? And of course the point is 114 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:03.319 not to give God new information. The part is to 115 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:07.480 humble yourself before God. And so he's really orienting himself 116 00:06:07.519 --> 00:06:10.240 appropriately there as he is going to go on to 117 00:06:10.360 --> 00:06:13.480 detail how he was humbled, as he's been doing in 118 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:15.519 various ways. Now he's going to really get into how 119 00:06:15.560 --> 00:06:18.879 he has been humbled intellectually as he is pulled by 120 00:06:19.000 --> 00:06:23.120 grace through this philosophical meandering. So I kinds that's the 121 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:25.680 stage for what we're looking at in these in books 122 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:29.040 five and six. But love to hear from you, guys, 123 00:06:30.759 --> 00:06:32.319 whatever you want to say. To kick us off with 124 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:35.040 book five, Kyle, you wanna take it. 125 00:06:35.399 --> 00:06:37.000 Yeah. 126 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:40.720 So, my my thoughts, I think sometimes don't relate to 127 00:06:40.759 --> 00:06:43.480 each other as well as they should. But I thought 128 00:06:43.560 --> 00:06:46.120 the first paragraph is really dense with a lot of 129 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:48.160 different insights. And one of the things that sucks to 130 00:06:48.199 --> 00:06:50.920 me was, so the closed heart does not close out 131 00:06:50.920 --> 00:06:52.920 there eye know the heart's hardness, resist thy hand, for 132 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:55.800 thou dost open it at thy pleasure, whether for mercy 133 00:06:56.360 --> 00:06:58.160 or for justice. 134 00:06:58.360 --> 00:06:59.759 And so for men. 135 00:07:00.600 --> 00:07:02.800 Yeah, I think all the time about all right, that 136 00:07:04.279 --> 00:07:07.160 my eyes have been enlightened such that I may see 137 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:08.319 and delight in the glory of God. 138 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:09.720 And that's for mercy. 139 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:13.680 And you have to remember, and he's kind of hitting 140 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:16.480 on this key. It's like he could have continued in 141 00:07:16.519 --> 00:07:20.120 his blindness, maybe unto death, but his eyes would be 142 00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:23.240 opened at that point for justice, such that he would 143 00:07:23.360 --> 00:07:26.519 receive the wrath of God for eternity. And he kind 144 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:30.360 of reflects on that later on when he's speaking about 145 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:34.199 his illness in Rome as soon as he arrived, and 146 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:38.120 he's praying a thanks to God for saving him from 147 00:07:38.920 --> 00:07:41.600 his first death as well as the second death, where 148 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:43.720 he would have been under that wrath eternally. So that 149 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:45.480 was the first thing that I really keep it on 150 00:07:45.639 --> 00:07:47.879 that that I thought was enlightening. 151 00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:51.480 Yeah, I think it's interesting. I think later on it 152 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:54.040 kind of goes with this about how I think it's 153 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:59.879 the second paragraphed. So they stumbled against the in their 154 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:03.879 cojustice and justly suffered since they had withdrawn from My 155 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:07.040 mercy and stumbled against Thy justice and falling headlong on 156 00:08:07.279 --> 00:08:12.279 Thy wrath. And it's the same thing, like there's really 157 00:08:12.360 --> 00:08:15.600 no es, there's no escaping God, you know, whether like 158 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:17.279 if you just think like you're not hey, I'm not 159 00:08:17.319 --> 00:08:20.519 really about it. I don't want any of his love 160 00:08:20.600 --> 00:08:22.879 or anything like that, Well, you're still going to be 161 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:25.720 confronted against him, you know. 162 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:27.000 Yeah. 163 00:08:27.120 --> 00:08:30.920 I mean Augustine definitely throughout his writing, but we've already 164 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:34.399 seen some confessions how he really demonstrates the fact that 165 00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:38.679 God is in charge here, that Augustine wasn't saved through 166 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:41.679 any merits of his own. He was saved despite himself. 167 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:44.519 Like he's very clear about that that, you know, he's 168 00:08:44.559 --> 00:08:47.519 thrown himself into all these different lusts within this reading. 169 00:08:47.559 --> 00:08:48.919 I don't know if it's book five or six, but 170 00:08:48.960 --> 00:08:50.879 you know, he starts to I don't know if He's 171 00:08:50.960 --> 00:08:53.759 mentioned this before, but that he he has this concubine 172 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:56.240 that he's had for years now that he finally lets 173 00:08:56.360 --> 00:09:00.919 go when he's engaged to get married, he let's go 174 00:09:01.000 --> 00:09:03.399 of this woman that he's been with, but then he 175 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:05.679 couldn't wait any longer, so he got another woman while 176 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:08.159 he's still waiting. And so this is someone who's just 177 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:11.399 been thrown into less of the flesh. He's been thrown 178 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:14.000 into less of the mind, as he's been dragged along 179 00:09:14.080 --> 00:09:19.919 by these cult leaders, these heretics, these vain philosophers. Yet 180 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:23.960 despite all of these things, God has graciously been leading 181 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:28.159 him along toward his home in the church. And so 182 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:31.720 we just really see this idea that God is in 183 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:36.559 charge both in executing justice as well as in issuing 184 00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:39.480 out mercy, and that God will save those who he 185 00:09:39.519 --> 00:09:40.240 sets out to save. 186 00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:43.639 Yeah, I think one of the things I saw here 187 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:46.840 in the first couple of paragraphs was just how creation, 188 00:09:47.159 --> 00:09:50.519 you know, serves to qualify the Creator and he at 189 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:52.559 the end of this first paragraph he talks about all 190 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:58.639 the all the like man, animals, lifeless matter, everything praises 191 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:04.240 the Creator, and God doesn't desert anything that he is made. 192 00:10:04.519 --> 00:10:07.960 Yeah, when he says, the truth is that they've fled 193 00:10:08.279 --> 00:10:10.559 that they might not see THEE who saw us them. 194 00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:13.000 And so if eyes blinded, they stumbled against THEE. For 195 00:10:13.080 --> 00:10:16.200 thou dost not desert any of the thing that thou 196 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:18.919 hast made. And so it's exactly what you're saying. And 197 00:10:19.000 --> 00:10:24.080 so that God, God is he is the foundation for 198 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:25.960 all of existence, Like there's no where we can flee 199 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:28.240 from God. You go to the highest heavens, he's there, 200 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:31.720 go to shield, He's there. And so God is always 201 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:35.399 present for those who turn to him and ask of 202 00:10:35.480 --> 00:10:39.200 his mercy. But of course, as Augustine mentioned earlier, it's 203 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:41.360 the problem is that in our blindness, we celebrate our 204 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:44.759 blindness as if it's a strength. And at that point 205 00:10:44.799 --> 00:10:48.120 you're not going to ask to see. Therefore sight will 206 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:51.000 not be granted to you. And so we very much 207 00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:55.879 see that sin, that misery, in its various forms, is 208 00:10:55.919 --> 00:10:59.320 on us. Lewis talks about this, and I think it 209 00:10:59.360 --> 00:11:01.519 might be the great He has this great line where 210 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:05.639 he talks about how basically eternal joy is forever right 211 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:07.039 in front of us, you know, if only we would 212 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:11.440 reach out for it, and we just we see that 213 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:16.320 humbled spirit in august and someone who has been crushed down, 214 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:18.639 his pride been crushed down, it's been able to receive 215 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:21.600 the mercy that's always being extended out to us. 216 00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:26.480 It's interesting because, like, as you read Augustine's confessions, you 217 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:28.399 kind of see hints of some of the doctrines that 218 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:30.480 he's coming up with. I remember, I think it was 219 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:33.679 in book four he's like hinting at divine simplicity, and 220 00:11:33.799 --> 00:11:38.039 here like he what's the line God will not leave 221 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:40.559 He's created. I can't quote it. I know it's in 222 00:11:40.559 --> 00:11:43.279 the first paragraph. I'm not gonna spend too much time 223 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:47.080 looking for it. But then later on he's like struggling 224 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:50.360 with the incarnation, right that might be book five, book six, 225 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:54.039 and he's saying, I can't I can't come to like 226 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:58.519 I was foolish in that I imagined evil as a substance, 227 00:11:59.240 --> 00:12:03.159 and so I can't bow to a god that has 228 00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:06.519 created this evil substance, right, because then you can't be 229 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:11.399 all good. And so he's he's saying that as like 230 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:15.240 such that he eventually recognizes that it's wrong. He's hinting 231 00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:17.279 to the fact that he's recognizing it's a foolish thing 232 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:20.559 to think, but even here it's like God, God does 233 00:12:20.600 --> 00:12:24.360 not abandon his creation, and so far as like for 234 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:30.519 something to be creation, it can't be abandoned, right, Like 235 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:36.120 it's there, there's no there's no there, There isn't without him. 236 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:37.399 And so if you. 237 00:12:37.399 --> 00:12:42.440 Are going like there, there's no real sense of abandoning God. 238 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:45.279 It's just blindness. Yeah, which seems to be what he 239 00:12:45.360 --> 00:12:46.320 talks about. 240 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:49.679 Yeah, that's just exactly right. It's exactly how he sees it. 241 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:54.159 That I mean that that evil for justin that are 242 00:12:54.200 --> 00:12:58.480 our evil? Sin is it's a it's the problem isn't 243 00:12:58.519 --> 00:13:00.960 that we value things. The problem is that we value 244 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:03.039 lesser things above the greater things, and in so doing 245 00:13:03.080 --> 00:13:05.600 we move in the direction of non being. And that's 246 00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:08.440 what sin is, that we're moving in the direction of 247 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:11.120 non being. We're trying to go where God isn't But 248 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:13.320 of course there is no such place where if we are. 249 00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:15.679 If we go there, God is there too, because we 250 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:18.639 are like, you don't have existence without God. And so 251 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:21.720 that's exactly right. And this is something that he struggled with, 252 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:24.799 and in fact, there's something that the Romans in general 253 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:28.600 tended to struggle with because they didn't have this idea 254 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:33.639 of a truly transcendent God. Their God's very much dwelt 255 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:37.159 on the same plane of existence as we do. They're 256 00:13:37.159 --> 00:13:40.120 just like superheroes essentially, Like it's not that different than 257 00:13:40.120 --> 00:13:42.279 what you get in you know, the Marble version, which 258 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:45.240 is you know, dumb down version obviously, but metaphysically speaking, 259 00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:46.919 it's essentially the same thing. They just operate in a 260 00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:50.080 different realm of this plane of existence. And so when 261 00:13:50.080 --> 00:13:52.799 the Christians start talking about like we don't have you know, 262 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:55.519 we don't bow down to two idols, because well, our 263 00:13:55.519 --> 00:13:59.879 God can't be that identify that that well, our God 264 00:13:59.919 --> 00:14:03.039 is intrinsically that localized like that, they accuse a Christians 265 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:04.879 of being atheists because they simply had no way of 266 00:14:04.919 --> 00:14:08.159 understanding the idea of a purely spiritual, truly transcendent God 267 00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:12.960 that transcends this material realm. And Augustine seemed to kind 268 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:15.600 of imbibe some of some of that difficulty, which is 269 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:17.799 one of the reasons why he last on to the Manicheans, 270 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:21.919 because they at least had some idea of good and 271 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:25.879 evil that made sense to him with his Roman upbringing, 272 00:14:26.720 --> 00:14:28.279 and of course that their idea of being kind of 273 00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:30.600 this the yin and Yang idea of sorts that good 274 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:35.120 and evil or constantly cons with each other, and that 275 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:39.200 that the material is the what the world of sense 276 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:41.960 experience is like inherently flawed or you know, drawn down 277 00:14:41.960 --> 00:14:44.559 to evil, which obviously is not a Christian position, but 278 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:47.519 it's it is something that philosophically he had to overcome 279 00:14:47.519 --> 00:14:48.159 on this journey. 280 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:48.919 Yeah. 281 00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:52.879 And and keeping all that in mind, you see him 282 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:57.840 speak redemptively of creation, even even though it is slashed 283 00:14:57.879 --> 00:15:00.679 on by sin, because he speaks of we are helped 284 00:15:00.759 --> 00:15:03.320 upward by the things thou hast made, and passing beyond 285 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:05.519 them until the who has to wonderfully made them. 286 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:06.159 So you have. 287 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:11.799 Our passions are is a ladder to our love for God. 288 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:16.399 Right And so things aren't bad in and of themselves, 289 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:17.360 but they. 290 00:15:17.279 --> 00:15:18.480 Are lesser than but. 291 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:25.679 Respect and rightfully they are way posts on the way 292 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:27.639 to a love for God. 293 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:29.519 Yeah. 294 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:33.480 In fact, it is his appreciation of the natural world 295 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:37.440 that in part started to cause some doubts towards the Manicheans, 296 00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:40.960 because the things that he was learning about, like the 297 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:42.720 way that the world works on a very natural, what 298 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:45.720 we would call scientific level, that it just didn't seem 299 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:47.320 to mash up with the things that he was learning 300 00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:51.039 from the Manichean So there was this contradiction between what 301 00:15:51.120 --> 00:15:53.159 we would identify as the Book of Nature versus the 302 00:15:53.200 --> 00:15:55.759 Book of Revelation that he was using. And so we 303 00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:58.600 start to see there's this disconnect here that the philosophers 304 00:15:58.639 --> 00:16:01.159 that I esteemed, the philosophers who seem to have a 305 00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:03.759 decent grasp on the way that the world works on 306 00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:06.080 a mechanical level, like this isn't matching up with what 307 00:16:06.120 --> 00:16:08.919 my Manichean teachers are telling me. And so that started 308 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:12.399 to instill some doubts that maybe there's maybe there's non 309 00:16:12.679 --> 00:16:15.759 substance here is as I once thought. And eventually this 310 00:16:16.559 --> 00:16:21.120 head Manichean guy, this Faustus, he comes and first, you know, 311 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:24.080 Gustin's really excited about meeting this this great teacher who 312 00:16:24.799 --> 00:16:27.320 has inspired so many. But then he finally gets to 313 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:30.440 talk with the guy and he recognizes he doesn't really 314 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:34.639 know anything, and so they're just it's just empty, it's 315 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:38.399 just empty substance. It's empty kind of theological jargon, but 316 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:42.159 there's no reality behind it. And so then he starts 317 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:45.919 to become more inclined toward the classical philosophers at that point, 318 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:48.600 which is kind of part of his movement. Ultimately in 319 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:49.879 the direction of the church. 320 00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:54.840 Augustine is the King of the humble brag or you 321 00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:58.240 have this world renowned teacher, and Augustina finally meets him, 322 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:00.000 he's like, dude, you're actually just not that smart. 323 00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:04.119 Well, I mean, augusta name. This is the guy who 324 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:07.079 previously told us that he read Aristotle. You know he 325 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:09.319 didn't understand that everyone else had to time with them. 326 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:10.359 Yeah, that's true. 327 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:12.759 Two weeks in a row, just the King of the 328 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:13.480 humble brag. 329 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:18.519 Yeah, but even more so, I don't. 330 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:20.559 He just really hammers home on it, like it seems 331 00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:22.359 like there's a few things to know about Augustin that 332 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:25.119 unlocks all the texts, because at the end of. 333 00:17:27.079 --> 00:17:30.000 What is it book two? Of what's book five? 334 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:31.920 I don't know how the heading, how to read the headings, 335 00:17:32.400 --> 00:17:34.519 But he says, but where was I when I saw 336 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:36.960 after thee that weren't there before me? But I had 337 00:17:37.000 --> 00:17:38.960 gone away from myself and I could not even find 338 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:40.000 myself much lessly. 339 00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:41.720 So there. 340 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:50.759 I'm afraid to butcher him when paraphrasing him, but he 341 00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:54.960 speaks of it as though he's wandering away from himself. 342 00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:58.119 Those are the terms he uses not that he's wandering 343 00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:01.039 away from God, but that he's wandering away from himself. 344 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:03.839 Right, because ultimately it's one of the same. I mean, 345 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:06.599 if to you know a Turkey guard, he has this 346 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:08.599 great line in one of his journals when he says, 347 00:18:09.880 --> 00:18:12.519 with God's help, I shall become myself. Said to you 348 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:14.960 that I'm only truly myself, the ideal version of me, 349 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:16.640 which is another way of saying, the true version of 350 00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:20.680 me when I am standing before God. Let what we 351 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:22.759 are made in his image. We're made to reflect who 352 00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:25.200 God is. And well, we're not doing that. We're living 353 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:28.920 as shadow versions of ourselves, which is very platonic language. 354 00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:30.160 And also, I mean, that's what we get in the 355 00:18:30.200 --> 00:18:33.920 Great Divorce, the difference between the ghosts and the solid spirits. 356 00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:36.440 That the ghosts are shadow versions of what a human 357 00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:39.680 is supposed to be. And so to flee from God 358 00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:42.119 as an image bearer of God is to flee from 359 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:44.599 yourself who you are, who you are designed to be. 360 00:18:45.079 --> 00:18:48.440 And in so doing you in turn become well, you 361 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:53.000 become darkened, you become shadowy, you become less substantial and 362 00:18:53.039 --> 00:18:57.240 more frivolous. And so he is obviously somebody who's been 363 00:18:57.359 --> 00:18:59.640 looking for what is substantial. He's starting to have some 364 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:02.799 doubts in the Manicheans. He's starting to recognize that there's 365 00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:05.119 more value to be found in the classical philosophers, which 366 00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:10.119 you know Cicero, who really launched him on his philosophical quests. 367 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:13.920 That when he's studying Cicero for rhetoric, he recognized that 368 00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:16.559 Cisroo is actually saying some significant things, that there's some 369 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:19.319 actual wisdom there beyond how he's saying it. And so 370 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:22.000 there's always been the spark in him of like, I 371 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:23.720 want to actually get to the root of things. I 372 00:19:23.759 --> 00:19:27.480 want substance. I don't just want the veneer, which is 373 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:30.559 perhaps kind of ironic given that he's I mean, he's 374 00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:33.279 a master of rhetoric right like he is somebody who 375 00:19:33.359 --> 00:19:36.000 you would think would be consumed with how Thinter said. 376 00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:38.480 But all along on his philosophical journey he wants to 377 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:40.920 know that the substance behind things. He wants to know 378 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:44.400 the capital W word behind words, and so he shifts 379 00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:50.880 towards the philosophers. But even then he he recognizes that 380 00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:54.000 they can only go but so far. He says that 381 00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:58.799 they can calculate and eclipse, but they don't recognize that 382 00:19:58.839 --> 00:20:02.079 they themselves are eclipsed. They can study the light, but 383 00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:06.079 they don't understand what actually produces the light. They can't 384 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:07.160 get beneath the surface. 385 00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:08.599 You know. 386 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:12.279 It reminds me of until we have faces, this idea 387 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:16.759 that you know you we eventually you reach a level 388 00:20:16.920 --> 00:20:20.799 where Foxes can no longer dig right, where he's looking 389 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:23.599 for something that now even the philosopher, the great philosophers, 390 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:27.519 what they are incapable of approaching, and ultimately. 391 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:28.759 He's looking for God, whether he knows it or not. 392 00:20:28.880 --> 00:20:29.680 At this time in his. 393 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:35.119 Life, Augustine is an expert, putting down just like how 394 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:39.680 everything serves God's purpose and seeing different things that happened 395 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:42.359 through his life that pushed him on the way. When 396 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:46.079 he says at the end of I Guess Chapter seven, 397 00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:50.880 book five, is is thus Faustus, who had been a 398 00:20:50.920 --> 00:20:53.880 snare that brought death to many, did without his knowledge 399 00:20:54.039 --> 00:20:56.359 or will, begin to unbind the stare that held me. 400 00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:04.720 And then later he goes on about and the next paragraph, 401 00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:06.920