Speaker 1: So what happened was there was this Genius Act, the
Speaker 1: stable Coin Bill regulation. Now there was this push from
Speaker 1: the banks and the Community Bank saying, our deposits are
Speaker 1: going to try up. Therefore, we have a prohibition on
Speaker 1: interstparing stable coins. So that deal was done for the
Speaker 1: Genius Act. Fast forward to now the mark Structure Bill
Speaker 1: sits in the Senate, and the banks over the August
Speaker 1: recess said, you know what, you have to open up
Speaker 1: the Genius Act that we endorsed two months ago that
Speaker 1: passed already and ban affiliates so like reward programs on coinbase,
Speaker 1: as well as brokers and dealers from offering inters bearing
Speaker 1: stable coin products. They're a very well funded industry and
Speaker 1: they have a lot of money to play with. So
Speaker 1: its a crypto industry and it's going to be a really,
Speaker 1: i mean candidly a fight of the juggernauts in DC
Speaker 1: for these next couple of weeks.
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Speaker 3: welcome into the Thinking Crypto podcast. I'm your host, Tony
Speaker 3: Edward and we're recording at Station three in New York's
Speaker 3: Financial District.
Speaker 2: And my guests, who.
Speaker 3: Needs no introduction, but I will have to introduce them,
Speaker 3: it's Ron Hammond, who is the head of policy and
Speaker 3: Advocacy at Winter Mute.
Speaker 4: Great to have you first time in studio.
Speaker 1: It's pretty crazy, and I've done so many of these
Speaker 1: and now it's awesome to see how far you've grown
Speaker 1: and how much this operation has become.
Speaker 4: So congrats and it's great to be in the studio.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 3: I consider you a friend because we've spoken so many
Speaker 3: times on maybe over thirty interviews over the past four years.
Speaker 3: And yeah, like I said, really awesome to have this
Speaker 3: doing this in person.
Speaker 4: With and no Georgia drama. So let's get into it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well you're no longer at the Blockchain Association.
Speaker 2: Tell us about winter and your role there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely. So.
Speaker 1: Warmute is a prop trading firm the base out of
Speaker 1: the UK. Actually, they were after the election looking to
Speaker 1: get back into the United States. I brought the CEO
Speaker 1: when I was at the Blockchain Association, as well as
Speaker 1: the COO and a few others from the Winter mut
Speaker 1: team over to the White House. We had a lot
Speaker 1: of great meetings and talk about how wear music was
Speaker 1: I and come back to the United States. And it
Speaker 1: was after that White House meeting with Yevgeny that they
Speaker 1: reach out saying, hey, we're looking to build a team
Speaker 1: and we think it'd be great to have someone like
Speaker 1: you on board, and I was looking for a new challenge,
Speaker 1: and you know, they wanted to move up to New
Speaker 1: York and decided to take them up on the challenge.
Speaker 4: And it's been really exciting.
Speaker 1: So I'm only two and a half months in three
Speaker 1: months in so far, but it's been a lot of
Speaker 1: travel DC. I also cover the UK, which has got
Speaker 1: a lot of policy developments as well that I'm getting into.
Speaker 1: But for me, it's been really exciting because I really
Speaker 1: want to be on the front lines of the TRAT
Speaker 1: five versus Crypto fight, because we've all been talking about
Speaker 1: that's gonna be happening.
Speaker 4: But now kind of on the front lines here.
Speaker 1: So it's US and a lot of folks in crypto
Speaker 1: were over and soho and they got a we work
Speaker 1: obviously you're working down here in fi II. Yeah, cryptos
Speaker 1: creeping in on Wall Street. It's pretty exciting to see.
Speaker 1: And I'm excited for this role. So it's a lot
Speaker 1: of the same that was doing a blot chain association,
Speaker 1: but uh, now for one individual company. But you know,
Speaker 1: as a market maker, what's good for the marketmakers and
Speaker 1: liquid providers is good for pretty much everyone. Ecosystem. So
Speaker 1: that's kind of the unique role we have, and I'm
Speaker 1: really excited to get more into it.
Speaker 3: You know, Winter Made I've heard a lot about over
Speaker 3: the years, are you guys the largest market maker in
Speaker 3: the crypto industry?
Speaker 1: You know, there's a different metrics I've been saying, so
Speaker 1: some folks say they we are. You know, I haven't seen, like,
Speaker 1: you know, the definitive stats on that stuff. But again
Speaker 1: it depends on the volume and stuff like that, but
Speaker 1: overall to say, we're probably one of the largest, if
Speaker 1: not the largest.
Speaker 4: So it's really exciting.
Speaker 1: That's you know, just coming from the UK and Singapore side,
Speaker 1: right and we just launch a whole New York office
Speaker 1: and we're building that team or working on the licenses
Speaker 1: and the regulation, which is obviously my role here, and
Speaker 1: so once that gets more in the place, the growth
Speaker 1: is gonna be exponential.
Speaker 4: So we're really excited.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like a startup vibe right now
Speaker 1: in New York in our office of like five or
Speaker 1: six guys, and now we're really excited to be expanding
Speaker 1: as time goes on, and you know, it's only up
Speaker 1: from here.
Speaker 3: That's exciting, man, And it's just you know, analogous of
Speaker 3: everything that's been going on with crypto. With a more
Speaker 3: favorable environment, people are coming back to the United States
Speaker 3: looking to expand they're no longer in fear like what
Speaker 3: it was over the past four years.
Speaker 1: No, it's been crazy and it's weirdest think that New
Speaker 1: York is kind of like the epicenter of that. But
Speaker 1: we were just talking about, you know, I was spending
Speaker 1: time between Miami and DC last year, and in Miami
Speaker 1: the scene was huge, especially in the twenty twenty one,
Speaker 1: the twenty twenty four days. But I've seen a lot
Speaker 1: of excess now go into New York because folks realize
Speaker 1: the trad five fights here, the institutional money is coming
Speaker 1: in and this is the time to build, and this
Speaker 1: is the time to grind. Seen that all across you know,
Speaker 1: the ecosystem, but especially in New York. It's been really
Speaker 1: crazy to see how much SOHO is full of fashion
Speaker 1: girlies and crypto bros. It's it's a very different, unique situation.
Speaker 1: But I'm here for it and I'm excited for like
Speaker 1: this next phase of crypto. This is gonna be a
Speaker 1: fun one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it feels like we're at the costboard to start
Speaker 3: of a next economic boom powered by these new technologies
Speaker 3: like blockchain, crypto, AI and so forth. But blockchain crypto
Speaker 3: playing a big part of it. I mean, Ron, We've
Speaker 3: had how many companies go public and we're down by
Speaker 3: Wall Street just last week, Gemini a bigcoin, American bigcoin yesterday.
Speaker 4: It's wild, it's crazy.
Speaker 1: And I think we were on the ropes just a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago after FTX, but even before that
Speaker 1: with the ico, you know bus you could say in
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, you know, there's been several times folks that
Speaker 1: put this industry out and we're here, we're rocking, and
Speaker 1: we're better than ever. And in some cases, you know,
Speaker 1: the trad fi folks are getting a little you know,
Speaker 1: nervous now. So again, this is the next phase of
Speaker 1: the fight cryptos used to fights, and I'm excited to
Speaker 1: see what happens next.
Speaker 3: So, speaking of the trad fi fights, I think I
Speaker 3: saw a Summer Mersinger's article this morning about banks are
Speaker 3: trying to push back on some of the Genius Act.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so for folks who are unaware of what happened
Speaker 1: in DC. So what happened was there was this Genius Act,
Speaker 1: the stable coin bill regulation. Now, there was this push
Speaker 1: from the banks and the community bank saying, our deposits,
Speaker 1: especially in rule banks and community banks, are going to
Speaker 1: dry up. Therefore, we have a prohibition on interest bearing
Speaker 1: stable coins. And that was the agreement to more the
Speaker 1: crypto industry saying, hey, we believe this is going to
Speaker 1: be you know, a thread to our deposits. We disagreed,
Speaker 1: but in order to get a bill forward, there had
Speaker 1: to be the banks and crypto to be you know,
Speaker 1: in some way aligned here. And so that was a
Speaker 1: deal struck in the Genius Act. Again, it wasn't the
Speaker 1: best for crypto, wasn't the best for the banks, but overall,
Speaker 1: that's legislation. Not everyone's happy. So that deal was done
Speaker 1: for the Genius Act. Fast forward to now the Mark
Speaker 1: Structure Bill. This is the last big crypto bill at
Speaker 1: least on the docket right now. It sits in the Senate.
Speaker 1: Sure and the banks over the August recess said, you
Speaker 1: know what, our way to get us on board actually
Speaker 1: with the legislation is that you have to open up
Speaker 1: the Genius Act that we endorsed two months ago. That
Speaker 1: past already, you had to open that back up and
Speaker 1: ban a field, so like reward programs on coinbase, as
Speaker 1: well as a brokers and dealers from offering in just
Speaker 1: bearing stable coin products. And that's the funny part is
Speaker 1: and ay, didn't you endorse that legislation would be also
Speaker 1: that bill's done, so it's kind of i mean, the
Speaker 1: upside with crypto policy, it's very transparent, so like to
Speaker 1: the everyday person, you're like, yeah, this seems like a
Speaker 1: pretty flawed strategy here, but at least right now, that's
Speaker 1: where the banks are digging their heels in. And again,
Speaker 1: they're a very well funded industry and they have a
Speaker 1: lot of money to play with, and they have you know,
Speaker 1: in the past, been very effective in DC so but
Speaker 1: so as a crypto industry, and it's going to be
Speaker 1: a really, i mean candidly a fight of the juggernauts
Speaker 1: in DC for these next couple of weeks. So we'll
Speaker 1: see what happens on that front. But overall, we're seeing
Speaker 1: now that the banks, which we expected for years, kind
Speaker 1: of now stick their head up on the water and say, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, we're not either ready for it yet, or
Speaker 1: we should put on the brakes here, or maybe we
Speaker 1: need to, you know, build a motor bigger for our competition,
Speaker 1: so they don't really take our business away.
Speaker 4: But hey, guess what, that's the market.
Speaker 3: So you know, ron, sometimes I fire off on x
Speaker 3: bit tongue in cheek and I'll say, you know what
Speaker 3: this is because of the banks. You know, they're getting
Speaker 3: disrupted and their actions are speaking louder than their words.
Speaker 3: Almost here where you have the clarity people are not
Speaker 3: moving to on chain networks right using stable coins earning
Speaker 3: higher yield. Why do I keep my cash into checking
Speaker 3: and just move it over to coinbase or whatever it is.
Speaker 3: It seems like they're trying to fight back, But in
Speaker 3: addition they're also building their own blockchains and their own
Speaker 3: stable coins.
Speaker 1: And that's the typical kind of lobbying playbook in DC
Speaker 1: is if you're not ready for something or a product
Speaker 1: delay delay delay or throws many ropeblocks, you can until
Speaker 1: your internal systems are built up, or it may make
Speaker 1: some acquisitions and then you're ready to go again. I
Speaker 1: don't want to say broadly it's all the banks here,
Speaker 1: you know, who are universally opposed to in justsparing stable
Speaker 1: coins or the crypto industry by no means. I mean
Speaker 1: I was dealing with a lot of banks when I
Speaker 1: was working on legislation back in twenty sixteen on like
Speaker 1: more cussy rules and stuff like that, like with Bny Mellon.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of traditional banks and nutritial players
Speaker 1: that want this kind of legislation. Sure, there's just some
Speaker 1: folks who want that moat building or maybe aren't ready yet.
Speaker 1: You know, we've seen more of the traceiations for the banks,
Speaker 1: like American bankers and bank policies to stick their heads
Speaker 1: up versus individual banks. But I'm sure as the fight
Speaker 1: gets a little more aggressive in the next couple months,
Speaker 1: maybe we'll see individual banks more being you know, taking
Speaker 1: them banter and saying, hey, you know, we oppose this provision.
Speaker 1: We think the mohould be bigger for banks. So we'll
Speaker 1: see what happens. But it's going to get pretty nuts
Speaker 1: pretty soon.
Speaker 3: We'll see how that plays out. But you know, to
Speaker 3: your point, the crypto industry, we're ready to fight. We
Speaker 3: followed the past four years under Operation Choke point two
Speaker 3: point zero.
Speaker 2: And much more.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and again to say like there were a
Speaker 1: lot of banks, you know, we got de banked obviously
Speaker 1: during the Silicon Valley bank issue, a lot of folks,
Speaker 1: individual's incomanies got deplatform or debanked, but we did see
Speaker 1: a lot of banks, even some like JP Morgan who
Speaker 1: were posed publicly to banks actually ended up banking a
Speaker 1: lot of crypto industry that was debanked back in March
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three. So it's kind of funny to
Speaker 1: see how this interplay of crypto and tratify and the
Speaker 1: banks are happening. So we're allies in some cases, we're
Speaker 1: enemies in other cases, and that's just kind of the
Speaker 1: interesting weave we have with the DC. But again to
Speaker 1: the credit for everyone involved in the policy world. You
Speaker 1: can see a lot of this very publicly on Twitter
Speaker 1: and seeing kind of where the camps are and where
Speaker 1: their opinions are and make a decision for yourself. And
Speaker 1: that's where I think, you know, crypto has the advantage
Speaker 1: because a I think we have the winning arguments, but
Speaker 1: b also we're winning a lot of votes here and
Speaker 1: it's like two thirds of Congress. Now, I mean, that's
Speaker 1: very rare for any issue to be two thirds of
Speaker 1: Congress on any issue, but we have two thirds of
Speaker 1: Congress supporting these bills stable Coins and Clarity Act.
Speaker 4: You know, the momentum is on the one side, it's
Speaker 4: not for the banks.
Speaker 3: So speaking of Congress and the Clarity Act, we heard
Speaker 3: from White House cryptos are David Sachs, I think back
Speaker 3: in August that come late September the process will start.
Speaker 2: What can you tell us about the Clarity Act and
Speaker 2: where we're at right now?
Speaker 1: Sure things So just a cat chokes up everything. So again,
Speaker 1: Genius Act done, Stable Coin's done. Now that we have
Speaker 1: the Clarity Act, that's the big market structure bill that
Speaker 1: everyone's been talking about. Where's the SEC's line, where's the
Speaker 1: CFTC's line, what's the cutsy rules, and several other provisions
Speaker 1: that are really important just for you know, markets to
Speaker 1: operate here in the United States and create those clear
Speaker 1: rules that companies like wear a Mute very much need.
Speaker 1: We need to have those clear rules if we're going
Speaker 1: to operate in the bounds of the law, and we
Speaker 1: need to have the bounds of the law out there.
Speaker 1: So this is the big bill passed the House with
Speaker 1: over two thirds of the House supporting it back in July.
Speaker 1: Huge margins again, huge, huge, huge margins. But the Senate
Speaker 1: they decided to take up their own version and we've
Speaker 1: seen a couple of drafts come out so far. There
Speaker 1: was a draft that came out about two weeks ago
Speaker 1: and it was from the Senate Bank Committee and then
Speaker 1: the Senate Committee. That there's two committees involved, who does
Speaker 1: more of the CFTC stuff. They're still working on their draft,
Speaker 1: but what looks like we're having right now is that
Speaker 1: September thirtieth is what Senate Banking is telling folks publicly
Speaker 1: is that they want to have a markup or a
Speaker 1: vote in their committee. It's kind of step one or
Speaker 1: two of the ten step process, but they want to
Speaker 1: have that vote and get the process moving September thirtieth.
Speaker 1: Now they still have to have a vote in the
Speaker 1: Act Committee, but at least for right now, the day
Speaker 1: to look at it is September thirtieth. Possibly it depends
Speaker 1: if we have a shutdown, but we'll be seeing more
Speaker 1: elizive warranty off against Tim Scott, Cynthia Lummis, Bill Haggerty,
Speaker 1: and several other pro cryptocienters on both sides of the aisle.
Speaker 1: And that's gonna be the first step to see how
Speaker 1: much legs does this have. Again, it will be a
Speaker 1: different bill than the Clarity Act, So that means that
Speaker 1: the House will have to eventually vote on whatever comes
Speaker 1: out of the Senate. So and now we're seeing big
Speaker 1: established players like the banks kind of draw their hard lines.
Speaker 1: The crypto industry has drawn their hard lines where they
Speaker 1: want to support and not support. So it's going to
Speaker 1: get pretty nasty. And again, as we saw with the
Speaker 1: Genius Act, which is kind of considered the easier abilities too. Sure,
Speaker 1: we saw the Credit Card Competition Act in, so we
Speaker 1: had credit cards and exchange interchange fees somehow get looped
Speaker 1: into this bill. We saw some dramas essential bank digital
Speaker 1: currencies come in and almost derail the entire bill itself.
Speaker 1: So you know, this is crypto and politics. There is
Speaker 1: no shorge of drama, and buckle up. I'm sure we're
Speaker 1: going to see a repeat of a lot of these
Speaker 1: uh instances and drama points very shortly.
Speaker 3: I want to make sure I'm clear on something here
Speaker 3: in regards to that bill, because I know that Senate
Speaker 3: Democrats introduced a version. Were you saying that something else
Speaker 3: has to be voted in the House or once it
Speaker 3: passes the Senate, it's going to the president.
Speaker 4: If it's different than what the House pass was the
Speaker 4: Clarity Act.
Speaker 1: Then the House has to say, have to vote on
Speaker 1: it as well, so they have to vote in the
Speaker 1: exact same piece of legislation. So we kind of saw
Speaker 1: that with the Genius Act, where the House had the
Speaker 1: Stable Act, Senate had a Genius Act, and the Genius
Speaker 1: Act won out, and the House had kind of stomach
Speaker 1: it and vote on the Senate version rather than their
Speaker 1: own version. Again, so that's kind of what we're seeing
Speaker 1: play out at least right now. But there could be
Speaker 1: a situation where there's so much drama and politics involved
Speaker 1: that the Senate says, screw it, we'll just do the
Speaker 1: Clarity Act and just like if we vote out here,
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to go back to the House. But
Speaker 1: the problem is that the Senate, you're going to need
Speaker 1: a lot of Democrats support yes. And that's where you
Speaker 1: reference the twelve Democrats here. You have to get sixty
Speaker 1: votes in the Senate out of one hundred people to
Speaker 1: advance this bill. And as we saw the Genius Act,
Speaker 1: you know it's not guarantee you and get all the Republicans.
Speaker 1: We saw two drop off on that vote and then
Speaker 1: can't leay the Democrats are in a position of the negotiating
Speaker 1: power here. So they laid out their principles. One of
Speaker 1: them didn't include the provision on interspearing table coins. So
Speaker 1: I'm sure the banks are happy about that provision being included.
Speaker 1: By no means is that guarantee that's going to be
Speaker 1: in the bill. But there was a laundry list of
Speaker 1: things that they want, and they understand that if to
Speaker 1: get the sixty votes, they're going to probably need at
Speaker 1: least ten, if not eleven, of.
Speaker 4: Those twelve to come on board.
Speaker 1: So this is where the jocking comes in politics, and
Speaker 1: a lot of that's happened behind closed doors.
Speaker 4: So get ready to get exciting.
Speaker 3: Do you think that Trump's families businesses involving crypto will
Speaker 3: be a roadblock? Because I know Elizabeth Warren is chomping
Speaker 3: on the bit to say, look, they're making a ton
Speaker 3: of money off of this.
Speaker 2: Do you think that might be a problem.
Speaker 4: Oh, one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: I mean, we've already seen that play out in the
Speaker 1: House already where it was a dominating factor both in
Speaker 1: several market votes as well as just the debate on
Speaker 1: the House floor, but overall, actually compared to FIT twenty one,
Speaker 1: which is the market sucture built from two years ago
Speaker 1: the House vote on even with all the Trump drama
Speaker 1: and the Trump involvement in crypto, we've actually got more
Speaker 1: Democrats to support the bill this go around, So I think,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a lot of noise more than anything,
Speaker 1: and it's kind of weird. Also, if you see DC media,
Speaker 1: you'll talk about how the really financial netted the Trump
Speaker 1: family like five billion dollars, But then if you look
Speaker 1: at more the market media and financial media, you'll see
Speaker 1: more how really financial taint and it's been to flop entirely.
Speaker 1: So I think there's also information flows that you know,
Speaker 1: different people are getting. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: at least I look at the House voats and I say,
Speaker 1: I'm optimistic. That being said, though there was one, you know,
Speaker 1: several points actually the Democrats raise in their twelve or
Speaker 1: the twelve Democrats raise in their points on the competent
Speaker 1: interest for the Trump family. So I'm sure it will
Speaker 1: be a dominating factor in a lot of debate in
Speaker 1: the Senate.
Speaker 4: So we'll see what happens.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm kind of concerned about that part. Ron, So realistically,
Speaker 3: do you think this bill gets past late October? Or
Speaker 3: maybe it is November or till December before everybody goes
Speaker 3: on break.
Speaker 1: You know, i'd Simnel Lumbus said at Salt Wyoming she's
Speaker 1: hoping to get done before December. And I think that's
Speaker 1: actually a pretty realistic timeline. Again, even though we're having
Speaker 1: hypothetically a vote September thirtieth on half of the bill,
Speaker 1: we still go way through other half of the bill
Speaker 1: to come out Senate. Our culture, that's going to probably
Speaker 1: be until late October, and then you have Thanksgiving, you
Speaker 1: a lot of the holidays, you have a lot of
Speaker 1: big bills to get done by the end of the year,
Speaker 1: including government funding. We're facing a shutdown, and if they
Speaker 1: avert the shutdown at the end of this month, they
Speaker 1: likely will kick the can to Thanksgiving or Christmas, so
Speaker 1: we're gonna have another shutdown fight happening them too. So
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of drama Senate and time. The
Speaker 1: Senate is very viable, So it all that kind of
Speaker 1: depends on A how they moved through the committee for votes,
Speaker 1: how by Parson, and then b what's next. But then
Speaker 1: again finally after it pass the Senate, it's got to
Speaker 1: go back to the House and you got to hope
Speaker 1: the House isn't adding thing because otherwise the sen has
Speaker 1: to vote on it again.
Speaker 4: So this could get This could go.
Speaker 1: Back and forth for a while, and it kind of
Speaker 1: depends on who's gonna stomach what and from which camps.
Speaker 1: And again all camps are involved here, so it's a
Speaker 1: lot of cooks in the kitchen.
Speaker 3: So realistically we should all set our calendar dates to
Speaker 3: maybe December before Christmas around.
Speaker 4: That's like more we're talking to more of my experience
Speaker 4: and be more we're listening.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I'm a lot more optimistic
Speaker 1: on marts structure than it was two months ago, even
Speaker 1: a month ago.
Speaker 4: We'll see how these negotiations play out.
Speaker 1: But overall, you know, we've seen a lot of the
Speaker 1: DeFi protections that the industry was asking for that got
Speaker 1: included in the latest draft. So at least right now
Speaker 1: we've seen a lot more showing up the crypto support.
Speaker 1: Will those protections remain it remains to be seen over negotiations,
Speaker 1: But overall, it seems like, you know, compared to other
Speaker 1: bills in the past, including the Clarity Act, we seem
Speaker 1: to have a united in front of the crypto industry saying, hey,
Speaker 1: largely we're ninety five percent of this, which is it's
Speaker 1: pretty rare on in crypto these days and in curds
Speaker 1: of politics, but it remains me seen what the pop
Speaker 1: product is.
Speaker 3: Absolutely Now, yesterday I saw Michael Saylor and a bunch
Speaker 3: of bitcoin advocates were in DC trying to rally for
Speaker 3: the US Strategic Bitcoin Reserve Bill or getting that pass.
Speaker 2: Any updates there you can share.
Speaker 1: We haven't seen too much updates on that front. You know,
Speaker 1: we saw the White House report becoind of you know,
Speaker 1: a little mum on the law of those details there. Sure,
Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot of focus still is
Speaker 1: on the Clarity Act as well as marts structure and
Speaker 1: just getting that through. And we've seen the White House
Speaker 1: be more of a to bolster the congressional efforts rather
Speaker 1: than trying to do their own thing or do their
Speaker 1: own initiatives, which has actually been pretty exciting to see.
Speaker 1: And then that's actually related to like more of the
Speaker 1: SEC and CFTC working together as well, So I think
Speaker 1: the White House would be more of a coordinator rather
Speaker 1: than like a force driving everything right now. Sure, and
Speaker 1: but again that's that's really good because we have some
Speaker 1: really experienced folks at the agencies and Congress leading this stuff,
Speaker 1: but more in the Reserve itself, I think that there's
Speaker 1: a lot of still questions and a lot of folks wondering,
Speaker 1: you know, is this more of a Treasury play, a
Speaker 1: regulatory play, or is it a congressional play with like
Speaker 1: some centered lumbas is Bitcoin Act and so at least
Speaker 1: it's good to see avocates, you know, pushing for that
Speaker 1: as well. But overall, I'd say for most of the industry,
Speaker 1: that bill is still pretty nascent in its days. I
Speaker 1: get to recall the Mark Structure bill. I mean I
Speaker 1: worked on a Marcus Structure bill back in eight years ago,
Speaker 1: and that you know version of bill obviously has changed
Speaker 1: so much over time and at two hundred pages plus,
Speaker 1: but that bill topic is still being debated to this day.
Speaker 1: So bills take a long time sometimes, sure, and that
Speaker 1: is the frustrating part of Congress. It does take some
Speaker 1: while to build amentum, and that might be the hurdle
Speaker 1: right now for Bitcoin Act, but it mains to be seen.
Speaker 1: It's gotten good support so far in the House and Senate.
Speaker 3: I've been on record saying that I think it's a
Speaker 3: hard sell for Congress.
Speaker 2: Hey, we let's go buy bitcoin.
Speaker 3: It's easy to say, let's take the bigcoin to be
Speaker 3: confiscated and start a reserve, but to go tell them
Speaker 3: because where are you gonna get the money? You Maybe
Speaker 3: Trump has been talking about tariffs. I don't know if
Speaker 3: it's him or someone else, but maybe some of the
Speaker 3: tariff revenue. But still I think it's a hard sell.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's you know, it's more of the optics I
Speaker 1: think is the hardest part and to overcome, especially for
Speaker 1: a lot of folks within the industry. And again there's
Speaker 1: a divergent opinions on like, you know, more of like
Speaker 1: monetary wise as it makes sense for policy. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, there've also been openness from center lummas
Speaker 1: as well as the administration saying, hey, look, we're open
Speaker 1: to finding budget neutral ways to make this work. Sure,
Speaker 1: we're looking for tweaks to make this better. So the
Speaker 1: upside is it's very much of an opening dialogue and
Speaker 1: communication with the drafters as well as the folks and
Speaker 1: administration and saying we're open to changing our mind here
Speaker 1: of how this works, and you know, that's a good policy.
Speaker 1: It gets made Unfortunately, it takes time and for a
Speaker 1: lot of folks, I know that's frustrating, but that's the
Speaker 1: current situation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like the market structure is the higher priority.
Speaker 3: Let's get that done. Then we'll work on bitcoin buying,
Speaker 3: bigcoin and things like that.
Speaker 4: Exactly, We've got plenty of issues coming up.
Speaker 1: I mean leaving got in tax issues and that's going
Speaker 1: to be coming up probably in January as well. So
Speaker 1: don't worry just because market structure gets done fingers crossed.
Speaker 1: There's plenty of other issues that the industry still got
Speaker 1: in DC.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the tax part is so big because people being
Speaker 3: able to spend their crypto would be great if they're
Speaker 3: not taxed at a certain threshold.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the dominas is huge.
Speaker 1: You know, marked to market is a huge one, Like
Speaker 1: kind exchange is a huge question mark sure. You know,
Speaker 1: mining staking rewards is another question. And actually Patrick witt
Speaker 1: over at the blockche Association last week, he was speaking
Speaker 1: to a whole group of you know, folks in the
Speaker 1: policy werealming saying that actually tax issues is something that's
Speaker 1: going to be next for them to look at. They're
Speaker 1: going to see what they can do without congressional approval.
Speaker 1: And they're going to see what they also need Congress
Speaker 1: and move forward on. And Congress is going to be
Speaker 1: working on another tax bill, so I think crypto tax
Speaker 1: issues are going to heat up pretty quickly.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: How much that will go forward remains to be seen,
Speaker 1: but the White House is exploring ways to do it
Speaker 1: without Congress, so we could see some clarity soon. Again,
Speaker 1: when it comes to timing unclear, but mark structure, to
Speaker 1: your point, is still the top priority. But don't worry,
Speaker 1: We've got plenty of stuff to come up next.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: The good thing is we're making progress right exactly, not
Speaker 3: perfection progress, and that's important. Now you mentioned, you know,
Speaker 3: the SEC and the CFDC working together. We've been seeing
Speaker 3: some amazing activity coming out of the SEC and the CFDC.
Speaker 3: Credit to Acting Chair fam. What are your thoughts on
Speaker 3: how they've been collaborating and what's been the progress that's
Speaker 3: being made.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's been pretty incredible so far as to
Speaker 4: say the least.
Speaker 1: I mean, this has been two agencies that in the
Speaker 1: past have really never communicated and especially sometimes they've been
Speaker 1: you know, finding each other at leastly solid against her
Speaker 1: venom days. But right now it's been very much kumbaya
Speaker 1: open arms here. Of course, a lot that thanks to
Speaker 1: the White House for getting these folks in the same
Speaker 1: room together. But at the same time, he's seen the
Speaker 1: SEC and CFTC say hey, look we're launching these you know,
Speaker 1: crypto sprints or Project Crypto, and they have been really
Speaker 1: evily engaging with the industry. Caroline fam even though she's
Speaker 1: the last commissioner standing at the current moment, she has
Speaker 1: been out and about, you know, making the rounds at
Speaker 1: least with the industry and hearing folks both abroad and domestically.
Speaker 1: So that's been really exciting to see on her end.
Speaker 1: And they at least with the SEC. I mean, we
Speaker 1: had a long call with them yesterday. Actually I'm sure
Speaker 1: we'll have a conversation with them, you know, pretty soon again.
Speaker 1: But they have been very open, very transparent, very different
Speaker 1: in the past four years, and I'm very excited to
Speaker 1: see kind of what comes from the road show that
Speaker 1: they've been doing in publicly touting for the past couple
Speaker 1: of months, because it seems like questions around.
Speaker 4: Token I securities, for example, there's a lot of question
Speaker 4: marks there.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of question marks on custy still and
Speaker 1: it seems like the s see his points to do
Speaker 1: some rule making or maybe some exempt of relief or
Speaker 1: you know, something to that effect pretty soon. But at
Speaker 1: least we know something's coming down the pipeline according to
Speaker 1: all public statements from Commissioner Purse as well as Paul Ankins.
Speaker 1: So the transparency is great. It's really exciting to see
Speaker 1: these engagements and we'll see what comes from it. But
Speaker 1: one thing is for sure. Folks in DC keeps saying
Speaker 1: I could not believe it's even busier now than it
Speaker 1: was four years ago, and doesn't see he's slowing down
Speaker 1: anytime soon.
Speaker 3: It's exciting, man, and it's just a breath of fresh air.
Speaker 3: I am a big concern about the CFDC. There's so
Speaker 3: many departures. Like you said, Commissioner fam the last standing
Speaker 3: person there, and then Brian contends his confirmation is being
Speaker 3: held up, Like what's happening.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot happening in the CFTC. You know,
Speaker 4: it's kind of crazy.
Speaker 1: You know, at least in DC, what we're seeing right
Speaker 1: now is that you know, Trump is the center of
Speaker 1: power here and he controls everything from foreign powers as
Speaker 1: well as you know, who potentially going to bomb next
Speaker 1: to potentially who is the soybean regulator, and that is
Speaker 1: kind of unfortunately. The situation we're at is that a
Speaker 1: lot is dependent on the president himself or his team.
Speaker 1: And even though Quintin's was up for nomination and wet
Speaker 1: to go in front the ad committee for his nomination
Speaker 1: vote got pulled at the last second, there's still a
Speaker 1: lot of questions why. You know, there's been rumors that
Speaker 1: the Winklevoss twins have been involved and saw the tweet
Speaker 1: that Quintin's did, and and Brian's a good friend of mine.
Speaker 1: I think he's great at the agency. I think he
Speaker 1: was great when he was there previously, so it'd be
Speaker 1: good to have him back. Yes, you know, Carolyn FAM's
Speaker 1: doing as much she can. She's doing great job as well.
Speaker 1: But also there's four other commission slots that needed be filled,
Speaker 1: and we haven't really seen at least at this stage
Speaker 1: those names being floated. And again it'd be Republican names
Speaker 1: and Democrat names. He had the balance out the agency, right,
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of questions and concerns. But the
Speaker 1: last thing I'll say, and this is kind of the
Speaker 1: new territory of the CFTC is we're seeing prediction markets
Speaker 1: and how much that's starting to take over in the CFTCRE.
Speaker 4: So a lot of hype, there's a lot of noise.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of scrutiny in the last administration on
Speaker 1: folks like Calci poling market that's changed. But also there
Speaker 1: are incumbents like the Indian Tries for example, Yes, who
Speaker 1: have seemingly been kind of behind the scenes of a
Speaker 1: lot of the Quintin's nomination as well coined some reports. So, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, as crypto grows, I think they've kind of realized, hey,
Speaker 1: there's there's other factions and traditional legacy systems that will
Speaker 1: fight you in DC, you know, whether publicly or privately,
Speaker 1: and they are not going to go out without a fight.
Speaker 1: So so we'll see what happens. But again I'm always
Speaker 1: optimistic because we've been warning these fights.
Speaker 4: And we've had a lot of them. So it's a
Speaker 4: it's just another one to add to the book.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I'm a big fan of Brian as well.
Speaker 3: I've had him on the podcast a couple of times
Speaker 3: over the years. He's very smart, understands the technology in
Speaker 3: the market, and they need to get him in and
Speaker 3: we need to get these commissioners and it feels like
Speaker 3: the skeleton crews running CFDC right exactly.
Speaker 1: Hey, the upside those the markets are operating. So he
Speaker 1: does show that even with the skinny you know or staff,
Speaker 1: the ages is doing pretty well. Obviously there's a lot
Speaker 1: of calls, specially in Martructure Bible to give them more resources. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you know, again we'll see how that uh, you know,
Speaker 1: that operation works. But the fact that there's only one
Speaker 1: commissioner standing it is a little concerning. And also the
Speaker 1: chairs not moving forward at least right now concerning as well.
Speaker 1: So fingers crossed. But yeah, that's definitely the top priorities
Speaker 1: for hopefully the demonstration.
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, I hope they get their result soon.
Speaker 3: Recently, well, actually you should say last week Tether announced
Speaker 3: they're coming into the United States with a new regulated
Speaker 3: stable coin us AT, will be headed up by bo Hinz.
Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on that move.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's a great move.
Speaker 1: You know, there's Tether has a lot of question marks,
Speaker 1: and you know, for years we were talking about this
Speaker 1: about how there was questions for the reserves did have
Speaker 1: Chinese commercial paper or not. There was questions where they
Speaker 1: were even located at our headquarter at there was questions
Speaker 1: around the odds and ascess stations, and then finally there
Speaker 1: was a lot of question of are they going to
Speaker 1: be able to comply with the Genius Act, and it
Speaker 1: kind of seemed like, probably not, but this is now
Speaker 1: like their way to let's say, work around, but this
Speaker 1: is a way to actually come into compliance. Sure, So
Speaker 1: that's been exciting to see it exciting to see how
Speaker 1: you know, the views on tether, especially in the industry,
Speaker 1: have really kind of done a one eighty where it
Speaker 1: was there's a lot more question marks, and then over
Speaker 1: time they've really shown, hey, like more more of the
Speaker 1: international stable coin, we're more this the on ramp of
Speaker 1: the dollar. We buy a lot of US treasuries And
Speaker 1: that was actually the argument that one a lot of
Speaker 1: the older centers over was just that more of the
Speaker 1: treasury angle, and there were what other was doing on
Speaker 1: that front. So overall I had to give him a
Speaker 1: lot of props. On the lobbying front.
Speaker 4: They did.
Speaker 1: They got themselves out of a lot of situations and
Speaker 1: they're now at the White House up the Genius Acts signing,
Speaker 1: which is crazy because a year ago I don't think
Speaker 1: Tether the CEO would have sept foot anywhere United States
Speaker 1: because they could have been folks after him. So so
Speaker 1: it's been crazy to see that turnaround in that story.
Speaker 1: And we'll see what happens in the marketplace because the
Speaker 1: stable point wars are they're definitely heating up, and especially
Speaker 1: here in New York, it's what all people are talking about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty wild.
Speaker 3: I mean, you got the banks looking to launch their
Speaker 3: own versions and you got you know, I just had
Speaker 3: Charles cast garrillat Paxos and he's talking about the Global
Speaker 3: Dollar Network and that has so many participants that seems
Speaker 3: like a eight hundred pound gorilla that's coming. And I'm like, wow,
Speaker 3: this is how I'm curious how this is going to
Speaker 3: play out.
Speaker 4: It's crazy.
Speaker 1: And you know, the Genius Act is still like like
Speaker 1: now the invitation on the regulatory phases are starting, but
Speaker 1: we're seeing some companies come out and say like we
Speaker 1: are a genius complying stable colin. It's seeming weird, like
Speaker 1: how genius now is kind of like mainstream like in
Speaker 1: just the vernacular, especially in finance, but like everyone knows
Speaker 1: the Genius Act and it's kind of funny because like
Speaker 1: I used to be one of the staffers either write
Speaker 1: the acronyms for bill names, and I did the one
Speaker 1: who did the Genius Act. And it's funny to think
Speaker 1: of like how that is now like in the vernacular
Speaker 1: everything in finance. It's just like it's just the Genius
Speaker 1: Act as it is. So it's great to see. We'll
Speaker 1: hopefully have clarity or some version of that next. I
Speaker 1: hope they come with a good name and we'll hopefully
Speaker 1: see that kind of boom at least with the you know,
Speaker 1: alts or other parts of the market if we get
Speaker 1: this clarity more than the SEC and CFTC from Congress.
Speaker 3: Sure, jumping back to tether in this new stable coin,
Speaker 3: because you already have USDT in the market. I've used
Speaker 3: it to send funds to vendors overseas. So how do
Speaker 3: you think that dynamic plays out they start phasing out
Speaker 3: USDT in the United States, does the US government go
Speaker 3: after them in other jurisdictions or it doesn't matter because
Speaker 3: you have USAT here.
Speaker 2: It seems like a very tricky situation.
Speaker 1: Oh, I imagine, So I imagine these are the conversations that
Speaker 1: they're having right now. Internally, I do not know exactly
Speaker 1: how they're going to, you know, try to comply here. Again,
Speaker 1: we're still working on the occ fd I C REGs
Speaker 1: that come from the Genius Act, so there's gonna be
Speaker 1: still a couple more months and if not years to
Speaker 1: get those rules in place. And that's probably where we're
Speaker 1: gonna see more us T not being utilized as much
Speaker 1: United States or maybe barred completely, whereas USAT or others
Speaker 1: are going to come in to fill that need or gap.
Speaker 4: So so we'll see what happens.
Speaker 1: But again, even though the Genius Act is signed a law,
Speaker 1: technically there's still more regulatory implications stuff that takes a
Speaker 1: couple months. So I'm sure the runway is still you know,
Speaker 1: pretty far out. But Tether's thinking far ahead here, it
Speaker 1: seems like, to make sure that there's no doubt whatsoever
Speaker 1: their their in compliance.
Speaker 2: Sure.
Speaker 3: Now you mentioned you know, Wintermute being in the UK
Speaker 3: or excuse me, in Europe and that you got the
Speaker 3: EU MICA regulations. Teler also had issues there. Tell us
Speaker 3: about the dynamic you're seeing there is a very similar
Speaker 3: to the United States.
Speaker 1: It is actually so we're you know, in the UK especially,
Speaker 1: I would say it's probably the worst right now, and
Speaker 1: we're seeing a lot. No, there's some rumors going around
Speaker 1: because an FT article talking about how they're gonna limit
Speaker 1: individuals and corporations from holding stable coins call it yesterday.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's happening, at least we've seen no
Speaker 1: official word yet, but it's an FT article saying that
Speaker 1: this is coming down the pipeline. So I'll hold my
Speaker 1: judgment until I see it. But if that is true,
Speaker 1: majorly concerning. And there's a lot of major other rules
Speaker 1: and regulations that the UK is starting to work on
Speaker 1: that are pretty concerning, especially you know, more on the
Speaker 1: privacy side of things, and so we'll see how these
Speaker 1: all play out. But overall, you know, my job is
Speaker 1: a little full in the US. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: stuff happening in the US, but the UK is incredibly important.
Speaker 1: We're seeing a lot of issues there as well. So
Speaker 1: you know, in the EU, you know, Mika has it
Speaker 1: wasn't perfect by a means, but it was something, and
Speaker 1: of course they were the first movers and everyone's playing
Speaker 1: catch up here. So it remains to be seeing if
Speaker 1: the other jurisdictions are going to jump ahead. But I'll see,
Speaker 1: if you're gonna jump ahead and be ahead of you know,
Speaker 1: the EU, you got to have some you know, pretty
Speaker 1: clear rules as well as you know rules of the
Speaker 1: industry can work with here, and that's gonna be really
Speaker 1: important the next couple weeks.
Speaker 3: You know, I had a brain fart moment because I
Speaker 3: was thinking that UK was still part of the EU,
Speaker 3: but they obviously not. So I wonder if they're gonna
Speaker 3: do they have their own version of them Mika, or
Speaker 3: they're still to be determined on that.
Speaker 1: They're still work on some consultation papers right now. So
Speaker 1: these did one for stable coins. It's consultation papers are
Speaker 1: kind of like the regulatory like rule making process, and
Speaker 1: so they're doing some for consumer protection, safeguarding, custody and save.
Speaker 1: Several others are in the works right now. So it's lengthy.
Speaker 1: It's a little different than the United States. Still wrapping
Speaker 1: my head around it, but it's very, very active and
Speaker 1: we'll see kind of what happens with the firms are
Speaker 1: in the UK right now, because there is still a
Speaker 1: lot of concern of like, are we going to be
Speaker 1: still based in the UK after these.
Speaker 4: Rules get in place, or we're going to be going elsewhere,
Speaker 4: it's not that hard.
Speaker 1: We've seen in the US be a lot more open and
Speaker 1: to your point, you know, that's where we're been launching here.
Speaker 1: We've seen tether come back to the United States, so
Speaker 1: you know, excited see kind of what happens internationally and
Speaker 1: if that is a boon for the United States.
Speaker 4: If these rules are more adverse, I.
Speaker 3: Mean, I can't believe the UK is going that draconian,
Speaker 3: like you can't hold stable coins like what.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it's crazy and I think it was like
Speaker 1: twenty thousand dollars or something effect and don't quote me here.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Also I'm still waiting to see the official notice, but
Speaker 1: it is true. It's very concerning.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because at the same time, it doesn't seem smart,
Speaker 3: because if you're thinking about currencies and what the United
Speaker 3: States is doing right now with the US dollar back
Speaker 3: stable coins, you want people to hold more of your currency, right, you.
Speaker 1: Would think, you think, But you know, the UK operates
Speaker 1: a little differently here, and of course you know, still
Speaker 1: a lot of you know, questions you've worked out in
Speaker 1: United States. I think a lot of folks also look
Speaker 1: the United States as a leader here. So if the
Speaker 1: United States moves first in the mark structure stuff and
Speaker 1: sets a tone. Maybe they'll course correct the other countries.
Speaker 1: But I mean, of course there's a huge boon right now.
Speaker 1: See like who can get the crypto companies to come
Speaker 1: you know, domicile on shore.
Speaker 4: We saw al Savador be doing that for years.
Speaker 1: United States is back in the mix, but there are
Speaker 1: others that are trying to lose that fight and scene
Speaker 1: so that they're trying to listen on purpose.
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, so wild.
Speaker 3: What are your thoughts on these digital asset treasury companies?
Speaker 3: A lot of them are launching, not just in the
Speaker 3: United States but globally, buying tons of assets. It feels
Speaker 3: like it's bull it's great, but it feels a bit
Speaker 3: of a.
Speaker 2: Bubble for me.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you know, I have been crypto long enough,
Speaker 1: it's like when everything seems too good to be true,
Speaker 1: or that you know a lot of folks get in
Speaker 1: at the last second, then you you just naturally have
Speaker 1: those like you know, red flags that come up in
Speaker 1: your mind. So and I think it's you know, for
Speaker 1: a lot of the ogs a crypto and that's probably
Speaker 1: worth experiencing. We've been through I c os, You've been
Speaker 1: through fts Uh, we've seen a lot of these, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of more red flags issues sometimes and overall, look,
Speaker 1: the it's excited to see the Treasury company is kind
Speaker 1: of more organized in d C. So you know, credit
Speaker 1: to the Digital Chamber for bringing a lot those folks
Speaker 1: together in the other trades as well. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, you know, treasury companies have come up as
Speaker 1: concerns for especially Democrats during the March Structure Bill, and
Speaker 1: I think we're seeing a lot of the crypto skeptics
Speaker 1: just weighing for one of these major companies to go
Speaker 1: under or to you know, Deepak or what have what
Speaker 1: have you, and they're just gonna jump on it. And
Speaker 1: that's where we're telling folks in DC it's like, hey,
Speaker 1: like you might not like all elements of a mark
Speaker 1: structure bill, but trust me, when a market failure happens
Speaker 1: or there is a course correction, that's a lot harder
Speaker 1: to play defense on, and candilely, the entire conversation changes.
Speaker 1: And FTXI we have been through that and it's did
Speaker 1: a huge damage. But three arrows, same thing, Tara, same thing,
Speaker 1: and there is a regulatory snapback always when there's a
Speaker 1: market failure. So so we'll see what happens on that front.
Speaker 1: But overall, you know, we're monitoring it costly optimistic and
Speaker 1: hopefully nothing happens. But you know, the farway down we
Speaker 1: go down those you know, the top ten tokens and
Speaker 1: we get kind of more than ten, twenty thirty, forty range.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of concerned but DC has taken notice,
Speaker 1: So we'll see what happens.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and my hope is that there's some balance because
Speaker 3: you have black Rock and these companies that are here,
Speaker 3: but there's a lot of holding in the ETOs and
Speaker 3: they you know, you don't have to worry about custody
Speaker 3: or that they don't have the funds or they're com mingling,
Speaker 3: you know. So hopefully that helps dampen some of the
Speaker 3: volatility in the bear market.
Speaker 4: You would hope.
Speaker 1: So so and again like these are you know, household
Speaker 1: trusted names here, so that is like there's some upside here.
Speaker 4: But of course markets are sick with marker cycle.
Speaker 1: And there are always some people who try to skirt
Speaker 1: the rules or skirt the code, and that's where everyone
Speaker 1: else pays for it.
Speaker 2: We can we can't help our cells ron.
Speaker 4: It's its own tail.
Speaker 3: It's yeah, we did in the dot com boom, the
Speaker 3: real estate bubble even before that, right, Ginsir, I'm hearing
Speaker 3: this man deleted text before he ran out the SEC.
Speaker 2: How is this happening?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 4: I mean that was shocking.
Speaker 1: I'm sure, I am sure the Oversight Committee in Congress
Speaker 1: is going to have a field day with this because
Speaker 1: this is Uh, there's a lot of questions here. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of questions of transparency at all with you know,
Speaker 1: that SEC. And during his tenure, we saw a lot
Speaker 1: of you know, se employees some you know, it doesn't
Speaker 1: matter what's the ali were on. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: grumblings with the employees of how Gunzel ran the SEC.
Speaker 1: Uh and we saw a huge excess of staff there
Speaker 1: during his tenure as well. So, uh, this just adds
Speaker 1: to the laundry list. But yeah, in terms of transparency
Speaker 1: from regulator, it's really concerning. You know, there were rumors
Speaker 1: going DC for quite some time that he was using
Speaker 1: a signal to communicate. I don't know that's true or not,
Speaker 1: but we saw signals kind of backfired in this administration sometimes.
Speaker 1: So regardless, it's it's not a good one to see.
Speaker 1: It's very concerning to say the lady. Some clad folks
Speaker 1: like Coinbase are jumping on it. Yeah, but I'm sure
Speaker 1: Congress is going to have some questions here because that
Speaker 1: is very concerning. The transparency should be there for a
Speaker 1: financial regulator, and we're just not getting it. And in fact,
Speaker 1: it seems like we're getting the opposite. We're you're seeing
Speaker 1: some cover up here potentially.
Speaker 3: And Ron, I mean, look, I know we're speculating a bit,
Speaker 3: but the timing right, the time period of Windows texts
Speaker 3: were deleted, but with the FTX crash leading into Operation
Speaker 3: Choke point two point zero, it automatically leads to some
Speaker 3: collusion with Elizabeth Warren and much more.
Speaker 4: Right, mm hmm.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of questions, and again you don't know
Speaker 1: who who these texts were with, and maybe there's nothing there,
Speaker 1: but overall, we saw the actions that were coming out,
Speaker 1: and there's definitely how to be conversations that are happening
Speaker 1: behind the scenes. Unfortunately, it seems like we're not gonna
Speaker 1: know whe those conversations were, and that's typically not how
Speaker 1: you run a financial regulatory body. But I am sure
Speaker 1: Congress will have plenty of questions and oversight questions on
Speaker 1: that front.
Speaker 2: He hard question for you.
Speaker 3: Would any do you think anything happens against her from
Speaker 3: an accountabil standpoint?
Speaker 1: You know, typically these are just a they're more of
Speaker 1: a dog and pony show. This is a way to
Speaker 1: bring in the opposite side and grill them and say hey,
Speaker 1: you know, of course the easy time around the election,
Speaker 1: and saying like do you want to bring this back again?
Speaker 4: So that's how the usual politics will work here.
Speaker 1: But overall, you know, there's the market reactions too, and
Speaker 1: we're seeing, you know, several companies saying I will not
Speaker 1: hire folks who worked uneath Gensler or a Gainser himself,
Speaker 1: or any firm that hires you know, his subordinates. And again,
Speaker 1: you know there's different views of you know, if that's
Speaker 1: should be okay or not. But that's how the market's
Speaker 1: been reacting, and that's how some folks they felt very slighted,
Speaker 1: and rightfully so. But the SEC's actions, especially Gensler's, and
Speaker 1: it's our progatives made that decision, but there are adverse
Speaker 1: effects for him, probably outside of politics.
Speaker 3: Try not to get too frustrated or depressed about these things, Ryan,
Speaker 3: because it's very frustrating.
Speaker 4: To say the least.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know that's the upside of this new administration.
Speaker 1: It's been the most transparent sense and it has been
Speaker 1: again just night and day, and it's been so helpful
Speaker 1: just to have that versus not having that right and
Speaker 1: we're still waiting for some of the rules and regulations,
Speaker 1: but at least you know where the dialogue is there
Speaker 1: and they are very eager to engage and props to
Speaker 1: the cryptotask for is the Paul Alkinson's team, Like it's
Speaker 1: so different than it used to be.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I think you said it right night and day.
Speaker 3: I mean, we see who the SEC is meeting with,
Speaker 3: what they're discussing, and it's like that should be how
Speaker 3: it was forever or you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Exactly, and it's kind of tice me, Like, you know,
Speaker 1: take the tokenization. Like example, we're seeing the SEC is
Speaker 1: posting every single meaning they're doing. They're posting every single
Speaker 1: comment letter doing where Meat had a comment letter submitted
Speaker 1: actually two weeks ago. So we've had a conversation like
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier with the SEC and continuing going forward.
Speaker 1: But you know, we're seeing folks like Sidell. You know,
Speaker 1: they're being public about their opinion, but they're saying, hey,
Speaker 1: we don't want token ice equities, but like, at least
Speaker 1: as that there's that transparency nature where were seeing now,
Speaker 1: hey Robin head coinbase where meet several others are in
Speaker 1: the opposite camps and so see what nasak.
Speaker 4: So so that.
Speaker 1: Kind of transparency is good because we want that dialogue
Speaker 1: to happen in the public rather than behind closed doors.
Speaker 1: And then or closed doors and those texts happened to
Speaker 1: get the lead in you know, years down the road.
Speaker 3: So absolutely, man, this guy against there really really gets
Speaker 3: me upset. But anyway, I digress ron. A big update
Speaker 3: that I think seems they would have impact on future
Speaker 3: guidance from the SEC was the wrapping up of the
Speaker 3: SEC Varsus ripple case, because this was this over this
Speaker 3: dark cloud hanging over like how are they going to
Speaker 3: treat this? What are your thoughts on that wrapping up?
Speaker 3: And how do you think that influences the Clarity Act
Speaker 3: and much more.
Speaker 4: One hundred percent.
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of the times the SEC was looking,
Speaker 1: you know, we saw a lot of these cases get
Speaker 1: either get dropped or they get more of a mistake
Speaker 1: position from the SEC propective. I know there's other cases
Speaker 1: like this roman Storm case that you know, other industry pursuing,
Speaker 1: at least for the SEC, we've seen a lot of
Speaker 1: those cases dropped early and they were saying, hey, for
Speaker 1: us do rulemaking, for us to give guidance the industry,
Speaker 1: we need to have you clear the deck, and we
Speaker 1: need to also just show here are some of our
Speaker 1: official positions without conflicting some of the current core cases
Speaker 1: that are happening right now. Again, you don't want one
Speaker 1: judge decided one thing, and that completely is countered to
Speaker 1: what the SEC goals are on this new administration. So
Speaker 1: they cleaned the deck, seems like, and that helped out
Speaker 1: a lot for more of like the things like like
Speaker 1: we're taking guidance. That's huge, Things like mean coins not
Speaker 1: being securious, that's huge.
Speaker 4: So these are the.
Speaker 1: Kind of things that they needed to do in the
Speaker 1: early process to now seeing the results on the regulatory side.
Speaker 1: So overall, like the Ripple one was the kind of
Speaker 1: the last big one out there, and it seems like
Speaker 1: and that's really good to see that kind of wrapped up.
Speaker 1: And that's been a huge socker for years on this front.
Speaker 1: And you know now we're kind of seeing i mean
Speaker 1: a ripples extra piece, still kicking and doing brave dang well,
Speaker 1: even after the all the ups and downs has been
Speaker 1: through and we're now hopefully getting some more clarity from
Speaker 1: Congress and the regulator. So it's all smooth sailing hopefully.
Speaker 1: I'm sure there'll be some shoppy waters.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Overall it's a looking a lot more optimistic than it
Speaker 4: was before.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know a lot of folks are waiting for
Speaker 3: the additional all coin et apps to be approved, and
Speaker 3: a deadline's coming up in October. I'm going to talk
Speaker 3: to hester person next week, so let's see what we
Speaker 3: can get information we can get. Hopefully they approve the
Speaker 3: additional allcoin ETOs.
Speaker 1: It seems so, I mean, at least, you know, everything's
Speaker 1: been going in positive We've seen some corrections from the
Speaker 1: etf issuers, so fingers crossed, but overall it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's looking a lot more that it was two years.
Speaker 4: Scott's for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited and hopefully they get this
Speaker 3: Clarity Act through. Man. All right, Ron, I'm gonna wrap
Speaker 3: it up with a fun question here. If you weren't
Speaker 3: working in the crypto industry, what do you think you might.
Speaker 1: Be doing Oh dangn that's tough. You know, I used
Speaker 1: to do campaigns back in the day. It does suck
Speaker 1: your soul. It's a really hard job. And so it
Speaker 1: was like, you know, we're gonna in politics and crypto.
Speaker 1: You know, honestly, I.
Speaker 4: Think I would be probably back in the garment maybe
Speaker 4: a little bit. You know, I do miss my Hill days.
Speaker 1: I didn't love covering crypto, healthcare, tax and trade and
Speaker 1: energy policy all in one roof. But overall it's a
Speaker 1: really cool experience. It's like, you know, everyone's kind of
Speaker 1: young and really energetic, and it's you know, it's politics,
Speaker 1: just have Crypto changes every day. It changes by the
Speaker 1: hour over there too, So I definitely miss Capitol Hill.
Speaker 1: But but overall, I love my job. I love everything
Speaker 1: I'm done, and especially we've seeing how far this industry
Speaker 1: has grown, and like how.
Speaker 4: How we are sitting here today.
Speaker 1: It's pretty exciting and I'm looking forward to seeing kind
Speaker 1: of what happens next, and I'm sure we'll be talking
Speaker 1: about it for years to come.
Speaker 3: Bron, They got to make sure to put your name
Speaker 3: to at your name into crypto history books because you
Speaker 3: are working on the first version of a market Structure
Speaker 3: Bill with Warren Davidson back in the day.
Speaker 1: It's a group effors log folks, and actually kind of
Speaker 1: plenty of those folks I've worked with, like on the
Speaker 1: staff side, because that back then all the members of
Speaker 1: Congress slaw was two complicates. They kicked it over to
Speaker 1: the twenty five year old staffer. Those twenty five year
Speaker 1: od staffers are now either at the SEC or they're
Speaker 1: in the industry now, or they're in the Senate, and
Speaker 1: it's like kind of cool to see how far we've
Speaker 1: come and now that the members care about. So I'm
Speaker 1: excited for it, but hopefully is a movie one day.
Speaker 1: I think I got plenty of war stories, Damer the
Speaker 1: libra on this stuff, and I'm sure I got plenty
Speaker 1: of content to make it fun.
Speaker 3: Directors and pr people out there.
Speaker 2: This is demand to get or you got to write
Speaker 2: a book.
Speaker 4: Ron I don't know if you're sure everyone's shoot my book.
Speaker 4: We'll see. I got plenty of stuff for y'all. I'll
Speaker 4: help promote that book for you. Heh, there we go.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Ron.
Speaker 4: Hey, thanks to Dolly. Appreciate it.