1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,039 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:45,799 Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 14 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 4: And I'm Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:47,439 --> 00:00:51,439 Speaker 3: We're reporting from two very snowy areas of the country. 16 00:00:51,759 --> 00:00:54,240 We got snow here last night, you got snow always, 17 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,240 and so we were just talking about how our pets 18 00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,960 are coping with the cold weather. Bill, you were telling 19 00:01:00,119 --> 00:01:03,000 it's about the very serious problem that Oliver is dealing with, 20 00:01:03,039 --> 00:01:04,760 which is cold feet. 21 00:01:04,799 --> 00:01:07,519 Speaker 2: When you go outside to take care of your dog business, 22 00:01:07,879 --> 00:01:10,439 there's a lot of marching up and down are plowed 23 00:01:10,439 --> 00:01:14,680 but still snowy drive, and trying to get poor Oliver 24 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,599 to take care of his doggy business. And of course 25 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,439 I'm out there quietly grumbling, Oliver. The sooner you take 26 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,120 care of this business, the sooner we can go back 27 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:25,760 inside where it's warm. 28 00:01:25,719 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 3: Poor Oliver. I would imagine though, that it is very 29 00:01:28,799 --> 00:01:30,879 tough to be a very small dog in a very 30 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,680 snowy world, especially because you guys get like inches and 31 00:01:33,719 --> 00:01:35,719 inches of the stuff. And Oliver is not a very 32 00:01:35,719 --> 00:01:36,239 big dog. 33 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 2: He's not very tall. I mean he's tall docks and 34 00:01:39,799 --> 00:01:41,760 so he's long, and he has four wheel drive. He's 35 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,000 got good big paws. He makes his way through the snow, 36 00:01:45,079 --> 00:01:47,000 but he's only a couple of inches off the ground. 37 00:01:47,079 --> 00:01:49,879 That's the problem, is that when you go into maybe 38 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,040 seven inches of snow on the ground, When you make 39 00:01:53,079 --> 00:01:55,079 your way into the seven inches of snow and it's 40 00:01:55,159 --> 00:01:58,319 hitting you midchest, he's not very happy. 41 00:01:58,799 --> 00:02:01,879 Speaker 3: Poor little buddy. He'll get I think maybe on our 42 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,920 social media pages we should ask people to post pet 43 00:02:04,959 --> 00:02:08,560 photos in the snow, pets in the snow. That's a 44 00:02:08,599 --> 00:02:10,319 great idea, you know what, I just came up with 45 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,159 a great idea for myself. I'll go ahead and put 46 00:02:12,159 --> 00:02:14,520 that up on our social media feed once we're done 47 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:16,560 with this recording Pets in the snow. 48 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:21,159 Speaker 2: Not everybody is going through snowy times, that is true. 49 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,439 We have listeners all over the world, and I was 50 00:02:23,479 --> 00:02:25,280 talking to some folks on the other side of the 51 00:02:25,319 --> 00:02:30,000 planet where it's summer. It's summer, yeah there, while it's 52 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,960 winter here. I just saw on the news that the 53 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,439 real southern part of the US is getting hit with 54 00:02:36,479 --> 00:02:37,639 some very serious weather. 55 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:38,879 Speaker 4: We hope everybody's okay. 56 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,639 Speaker 2: These are areas that don't typically get a tremendous amount 57 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:47,960 of snow, and there's accidents and yeah, school and business closures. 58 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:50,439 I hope everybody's okay. And then, of course, we stole 59 00:02:50,479 --> 00:02:52,840 have our friends in Los Angeles. I saw a notice 60 00:02:52,879 --> 00:02:56,840 from a musician I've known for years, well known record producer, 61 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,800 and he just put up on social media last night 62 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,719 that their house had burned to the ground with all 63 00:03:02,759 --> 00:03:04,039 of his equipment. 64 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:06,199 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, she. 65 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 2: Is a very successful home studio. I guess they'll be rebuilding. 66 00:03:10,599 --> 00:03:15,080 But it's just so tragic for the people in southern California. 67 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 3: It's terrible our thoughts and good vibes and positive energy 68 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,759 go out to everybody who is dealing with something horrific, 69 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:28,520 whether that is La Wildfire's unseasonably snowy weather, or anything else. 70 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,039 We're here with you, and we wish you nothing but 71 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:37,000 the best. Today's episode is True Crime News Roundup. We 72 00:03:37,159 --> 00:03:40,520 found a couple of different stories that we thought were 73 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,240 interesting and noteworthy in true crime over the last week 74 00:03:44,319 --> 00:03:47,000 or so, and we wanted to share with you. I'll 75 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,400 present on a story, Bill will present on a story. 76 00:03:49,439 --> 00:03:52,120 We'll both offer some color commentary, and we'll all have 77 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:55,599 a grand old time. We are a podcast that tends 78 00:03:55,759 --> 00:04:00,479 to stray away from the well known cases over and over, 79 00:04:00,639 --> 00:04:03,599 so we have never reported on this case before now, 80 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,159 but I suppose it had to happen. It's time to 81 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:08,719 talk about Jack the Ripper. 82 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 2: I was so afraid you were going to say some 83 00:04:13,039 --> 00:04:16,000 other of our least favorite cases, but I'm glad that 84 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,079 you didn't. So there's news in Jack the Ripper. 85 00:04:19,759 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 3: There is news in Jack the Ripper. The British newspaper 86 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,759 The Standard reported this week that Karen Miller, who is 87 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,480 a direct descendant of Catherine Edos, the fourth victim of 88 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,079 Jack the Ripper has called for a new inquest into 89 00:04:34,079 --> 00:04:37,279 the murder of her ancestor and the four other victims 90 00:04:37,319 --> 00:04:41,120 of the notorious serial killer after DNA evidence pointed to 91 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,920 Polish immigrant Aaron Kazminsky as the real identity of Jack 92 00:04:45,959 --> 00:04:46,480 the Ripper. 93 00:04:47,519 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 2: Kauzminsky has been in the news, particularly in the last 94 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,959 couple of months after DNA analysis seemed to indicate that 95 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,839 he is likely their responsible individual in the Jack the 96 00:04:58,920 --> 00:04:59,720 Ripper killings. 97 00:05:00,519 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, very much, and this the name isn't new, I 98 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,199 think to anybody who follows the Ripper case. But for 99 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,279 anybody who isn't familiar, here's how all of this has 100 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:14,120 played out. In two thousand and seven, writer and Jack 101 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:18,319 the Ripper researcher Russell Edwards bought a blood stain shawl 102 00:05:18,439 --> 00:05:22,720 belonging to Katherine Edos at auction and then submitted it 103 00:05:22,879 --> 00:05:27,279 for DNA testing. The shawl contained the DNA of both 104 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:32,279 Katherine Edos and Aaron Kazminsky. Edo's DNA came from blood 105 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:37,319 stains on the shawl and Kazminsky's DNA came from seamen stains. 106 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:42,279 So these were both tested and the DNA results came back. 107 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,639 So here's what we know about Aaron Kazminsky. Kazminsky lived 108 00:05:46,639 --> 00:05:49,759 in Whitechapel at the time of the murders. He was 109 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,720 known to the police and he was on the suspect list. 110 00:05:53,879 --> 00:05:57,279 He was reported to police by a witness who saw 111 00:05:57,399 --> 00:06:01,360 him with one of the victims. Because that witness then 112 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:04,720 refused to offer up their evidence into the formal record, 113 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:09,040 the police couldn't hold Aaron Kasminsky, so he was never 114 00:06:09,199 --> 00:06:13,399 arrested or charged with any of the Jack the Ripper crimes. 115 00:06:13,959 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 2: And this is in the eighteen eighty eight time frame, 116 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,120 so this is at a time when a lot of 117 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:24,040 forensic developments, some of which we'll talk about. 118 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:25,879 Speaker 4: Today were not available. 119 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 2: Without evidence, and without this testimony, they don't really have 120 00:06:31,319 --> 00:06:33,879 any legal reason to hold Kasminsky. 121 00:06:34,439 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 3: The DNA findings, though now definitively link Kusminsky to the 122 00:06:38,959 --> 00:06:43,720 blood stain shawl belonging to Edo's. Russell Edwards has hired 123 00:06:43,759 --> 00:06:48,000 a legal team to fight for a new inquest into 124 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:52,240 the Ripper murders. He stated that the DNA results now 125 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,560 offer the coroner new evidence in the case and point 126 00:06:55,639 --> 00:07:00,240 to the real perpetrator. In addition, the descendants of both 127 00:07:00,319 --> 00:07:05,720 Katherine Edos and Aaron Kazminski fully support the inquest, which 128 00:07:05,759 --> 00:07:07,560 I thought was very interesting me too. 129 00:07:07,759 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 4: I was very struck by this. 130 00:07:09,439 --> 00:07:13,879 Speaker 2: I understand that Katherine Edo's family would be very interested 131 00:07:13,959 --> 00:07:19,000 in this. I find it fascinating that Aaron Kazminsky's family 132 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,240 is also interested in getting to the bottom of the 133 00:07:22,319 --> 00:07:23,319 Jack the Ripper case. 134 00:07:23,959 --> 00:07:26,759 Speaker 3: Yeah, very much so. I've got quotes from both of them. 135 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:31,199 Karen Miller, who is Katherine Edo's great granddaughter, said, quote 136 00:07:31,319 --> 00:07:34,279 the name Jack the Ripper has become sensationalized. It has 137 00:07:34,319 --> 00:07:37,480 gone down in history as this famous character. It's all 138 00:07:37,519 --> 00:07:40,519 been about him, this iconic name, but people have forgotten 139 00:07:40,519 --> 00:07:43,519 about the victims who did not have justice at the time. 140 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,759 By the way, stop there for one second. The names 141 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,439 of the other Jack the Ripper victims, for the record 142 00:07:49,639 --> 00:07:54,360 are Mary Ann Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride, Katherine Edos, 143 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,800 and Mary Jane Kelly. We don't ever want to forget that. 144 00:07:57,839 --> 00:08:01,120 These are all women who had they names, they had lives, 145 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,519 they had families, and I think we do tend to 146 00:08:03,519 --> 00:08:06,759 forget that because when we refer to this case, we 147 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,040 refer to it as Jack the Ripper. We don't refer 148 00:08:10,079 --> 00:08:13,040 to it by victim names, which we have all become 149 00:08:13,079 --> 00:08:16,000 more sensitive to, I think in the last ten to 150 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,079 fifteen years or so within the true crime space. But yeah, 151 00:08:19,079 --> 00:08:21,279 for anybody who doesn't know the names of those victims, 152 00:08:21,319 --> 00:08:21,879 there they are. 153 00:08:22,839 --> 00:08:26,319 Speaker 2: It's interesting that at one time this case was referred 154 00:08:26,319 --> 00:08:30,040 to as the White Chapel murders, and then he was 155 00:08:30,079 --> 00:08:33,480 also referred to as leather Apron, which is a little 156 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:34,759 too creepy for me, but. 157 00:08:34,759 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 3: It's a little too close to leather face. 158 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: It is striking how much focus there has been on 159 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:44,000 the offender and not on the victims. 160 00:08:44,879 --> 00:08:47,879 Speaker 3: Karen Miller continued by saying, what about the real name 161 00:08:47,919 --> 00:08:50,519 of the person who did this? Having the real person 162 00:08:50,639 --> 00:08:53,279 legally named in a court which can consider all the 163 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,600 evidence would be a form of justice for the victims. 164 00:08:57,000 --> 00:08:59,600 We have got the proof, now we need this inquest 165 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,960 to lead named the killer. It would mean a lot 166 00:09:03,039 --> 00:09:05,279 to me, to my family, and to a lot of 167 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,720 people to finally have this crime solved. End quote. 168 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,360 Speaker 2: And I love the idea of applying modern technology to 169 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,639 an infamous case that I think people around the world know, 170 00:09:17,279 --> 00:09:20,399 and to have this mystery solved after all these years. 171 00:09:20,519 --> 00:09:23,440 Obviously because Minsky's been dead for many years. All of 172 00:09:23,519 --> 00:09:27,240 the victims are gone, but there are family members who 173 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,320 are impacted here, like Karen Miller. 174 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:36,399 Speaker 3: Exactly because Minsky's great niece Amanda Polos, also weighed in 175 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,000 an interview with The Daily Mail. She said, quote, I'm 176 00:09:39,039 --> 00:09:43,360 more than happy to finally establish what really happened end quote. 177 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,600 So this is very interesting. It was noted in the 178 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,480 reporting from CBS that there are some people in the 179 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,480 scientific community who have cast doubt on the findings. They 180 00:09:54,519 --> 00:09:57,120 said the DNA research was not published in a peer 181 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,840 reviewed scientific journal, meaning the claims cannot be in a 182 00:10:00,399 --> 00:10:05,639 verified or the methodology scrutinized. I'm not sure why there's 183 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,840 that reticence there. We know that DNA testing is pretty reliable. 184 00:10:11,639 --> 00:10:14,960 I'm not sure if the hesitancy is because the fabric 185 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,720 is so old or the stains are degraded. I'm not 186 00:10:18,919 --> 00:10:22,200 entirely clear on why that seems to be a problem 187 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,720 for people. That was brought up in the CBS article. 188 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,039 Speaker 2: It'd be interesting to see if an effort is made 189 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,759 now to move this forward, if those kind of steps 190 00:10:33,799 --> 00:10:37,320 can be taken, where complete analysis can be done and 191 00:10:37,759 --> 00:10:41,559 articles written for scientific journals where we can be pretty 192 00:10:41,879 --> 00:10:46,120 much assured that this forensic inquiry is accurate and that 193 00:10:46,279 --> 00:10:49,919 we've got the DNA matches. I'm fascinated to see how 194 00:10:49,919 --> 00:10:50,960 this pans out. 195 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,919 Speaker 3: So this is actually the second time that Russell Edwards 196 00:10:53,919 --> 00:10:57,000 has approached the High Court to receive or to request 197 00:10:57,039 --> 00:10:59,639 a new inquest into the case. The last time was 198 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:03,320 too years ago when the then Attorney General said the 199 00:11:03,399 --> 00:11:05,879 new evidence was not enough to warrant an inquest. And 200 00:11:05,919 --> 00:11:08,279 again I'm not sure why that is. It was DNA, 201 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:10,639 but okay, So I want to quote from the Standard 202 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,559 here a quote. Barrister doctor Tim Sampson said that this 203 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,919 set a terrible precedent in relation to requests to reopen 204 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,039 inquests involving the violent deaths of women, and gives the 205 00:11:21,039 --> 00:11:24,039 impression that such matters are better brushed under the carpet. 206 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,399 He's written to Attorney General Richard Hermer arguing there is 207 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,559 new evidence to consider which, if it had been available 208 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,559 at the time, would have been justifiable for the coroner 209 00:11:34,639 --> 00:11:38,159 to charge and then seek to have Aaron Kasminsky prosecuted 210 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:41,360 for both the murder of Mizzados and the four other victims. 211 00:11:41,639 --> 00:11:45,120 End quote. So are we finally going to see answers 212 00:11:45,159 --> 00:11:48,200 in the eighteen eighty eight murders, I hope so. I 213 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,279 think that would be great. It would be nice to 214 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,759 have one of these very very popular true crime cases 215 00:11:53,759 --> 00:11:55,200 finally off the books entirely. 216 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,679 Speaker 2: As you mentioned, there's five families directly impacted, and I 217 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,799 think truly millions of people around the world would find 218 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,759 this a fascinating inquiry. I think this can be done 219 00:12:08,039 --> 00:12:13,080 in a thoughtful, methodical, professional manner, as if Kuzminski were 220 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,799 alive today and was going to be prosecuted in a 221 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:18,399 court of law now. 222 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,519 Speaker 3: I also think that even if they do have the 223 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:25,759 inquest and the case is properly closed, I'm sure that 224 00:12:25,799 --> 00:12:28,159 there will still be people out there who have made 225 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,919 their names and made their careers on ripperology and Jack 226 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,360 the Ripper research who will dispute it or argue, you know, 227 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,120 they got it wrong, or something like that. I remember 228 00:12:38,159 --> 00:12:42,159 reading Patricia Cornwell wrote a book about her Jack the 229 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:47,039 Ripper research, and she is absolutely positive that artist Walter 230 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,360 Sickert is Jack the Ripper. There are also people out 231 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:53,080 there who argue that at one point the Prime Minister 232 00:12:53,279 --> 00:12:56,039 of Great Britain could have been Jack the ripper. I 233 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,200 am sure that there are going to be people out 234 00:12:58,200 --> 00:12:59,879 there who are going to look at this and go 235 00:13:01,039 --> 00:13:04,039 that doesn't track my suspects the right one. But I 236 00:13:04,039 --> 00:13:06,360 think that's true in a lot of cases. I think 237 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:10,080 that if we do eventually learn the identity of the zodiac, 238 00:13:10,279 --> 00:13:13,039 for example, there will be plenty of people who were like, no, 239 00:13:13,279 --> 00:13:15,399 that they got it wrong. I got it right. So 240 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:17,279 I'm not sure that there's ever a real way of 241 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,879 putting this to bed entirely, but I would love to 242 00:13:19,879 --> 00:13:20,759 see somebody try. 243 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:24,159 Speaker 2: I think let's follow the science here. I hope that 244 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,840 the inquiry is allowed to move forward, and this would 245 00:13:26,879 --> 00:13:31,399 be absolutely fascinating to see if a case from one 246 00:13:31,519 --> 00:13:35,120 hundred and forty years ago can be solved. 247 00:13:36,159 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 3: And we want to credit CBS News and The Standard 248 00:13:39,159 --> 00:13:41,720 for their reporting on this case, as they were the 249 00:13:41,879 --> 00:13:44,399 major sources that I relied on as I wrote up 250 00:13:44,399 --> 00:13:47,039 this information. So thank you to CBS News and The Standard. 251 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:48,519 You guys did a great job as always. 252 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 2: So moving forward then to a more contemporary case, but 253 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,840 one in which many of the same issues are coming 254 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:00,799 to four. Now, many of you know we been following 255 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:05,559 the Idaho four case. That's the case where Brian Cooberger 256 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,360 is currently charged with the murder of University of Idaho 257 00:14:09,399 --> 00:14:15,080 students Kaylie Gankalvis Madison Mogan, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapman. 258 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:20,559 Forensic investigative genetic genealogy or IgG was used in this case. 259 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:26,200 A number of media sources are reporting and quoting from 260 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:31,039 the Latin Times. A precedent setting decision in the Idaho 261 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,360 college murders case is expected this week, as the judge 262 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,799 will rule on the use of genetic genealogy evidence the 263 00:14:38,919 --> 00:14:43,919 prosecutors say links Brian Coberger to the brutal crimes. Coberger, 264 00:14:44,159 --> 00:14:48,039 who is a former criminology PhD student, faces charges in 265 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:52,240 the November twenty twenty two murders of four University of 266 00:14:52,279 --> 00:14:56,240 Idaho students, and we just talked about them. His attorneys 267 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,879 argue that the use of investigative genetics genealogy or IgG 268 00:15:00,279 --> 00:15:05,639 to pinpoint him as a suspect raises constitutional and scientific concerns. 269 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,840 Quote Investigative genetics genealogy is an effective tool, forensic expert 270 00:15:10,919 --> 00:15:14,000 Tiffany Roy told The Union Leader, But the question is 271 00:15:14,159 --> 00:15:16,120 does it violate civil rights? 272 00:15:17,159 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 4: Now? 273 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 2: Prosecutors allege that DNA on a knife sheath that was 274 00:15:21,639 --> 00:15:26,279 found at the crime scene matches Coburger's genetic profile and 275 00:15:26,399 --> 00:15:27,000 ties him. 276 00:15:26,879 --> 00:15:27,559 Speaker 4: To the murders. 277 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 2: Coburger's defense team claims the process by which law enforcement 278 00:15:31,799 --> 00:15:37,799 initially identified him using IgG violates his privacy rights. Now 279 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,320 we know some of the people that have worked on 280 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,159 this case. We're not going to name them, but we 281 00:15:43,279 --> 00:15:45,639 know people that have worked on this case and have 282 00:15:45,759 --> 00:15:50,559 worked on the IgG technology that was used. Now, this 283 00:15:50,639 --> 00:15:56,519 particular publication calls it a controversial technique. I'm shrugging my 284 00:15:56,519 --> 00:15:59,279 shoulders here. I don't see it as all that controversial. 285 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,799 It's been yeah on either It's been used in hundreds 286 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:07,720 of cases. It has solved a number of different unsolved 287 00:16:07,759 --> 00:16:12,799 sexual assaults, murders, and missing persons cases. They describe it 288 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:18,279 as controversial. The controversial technique involves uploading DNA to genealogy 289 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:22,799 websites to trace potential relatives and narrow down suspects, although 290 00:16:22,879 --> 00:16:26,840 prosecutors argue that DNA evidence ultimately came from a direct 291 00:16:26,879 --> 00:16:31,039 swab of Coburger's cheek, and that's really important that if 292 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:36,919 defense maintains the method used lacks transparency. As we've talked 293 00:16:36,919 --> 00:16:40,720 about many times on mind over murder. IgG is simply 294 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:45,200 a tool. Kristin and I were talking about this offline today. 295 00:16:45,559 --> 00:16:48,559 It's interesting. Around the same time as the Jack the 296 00:16:48,639 --> 00:16:53,159 Ripper case in the eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties is 297 00:16:53,279 --> 00:16:59,120 when fingerprint technology, which had actually been around for literally 298 00:16:59,279 --> 00:17:02,559 thousands of years, but was never used in a court 299 00:17:02,639 --> 00:17:07,440 of law until eighteen ninety two. It's amazing how we're 300 00:17:07,559 --> 00:17:13,079 completely comfortable with fingerprints being used and being used to 301 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:17,000 convict people as far back as eighteen ninety two in 302 00:17:17,279 --> 00:17:22,319 Buenos Aires, Argentina, then in the UK, and then finally 303 00:17:22,759 --> 00:17:27,119 in nineteen oh two here in the United States. I 304 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:33,079 feel like the use of DNA identification is not a 305 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:38,160 big step from fingerprints. I'm gesturing while I'm talking with you, 306 00:17:38,319 --> 00:17:41,599 and I'm putting my hand on the top of my desk. 307 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,359 I'm sure that if we came in and fingerprinted my 308 00:17:45,559 --> 00:17:49,640 home office here Slash Podcast Studio, there would probably be 309 00:17:50,079 --> 00:17:54,799 hundreds of my fingerprints. And fingerprints are used all day, 310 00:17:54,839 --> 00:17:58,799 every day by the FBI and law enforcement agencies across 311 00:17:58,799 --> 00:18:04,200 the country to identify suspects. Investigative genetic genealogy is essentially 312 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,880 the same thing. It's just a digital fingerprint of your DNA. 313 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:12,799 And let's remember, after Coburger was identified as a potential suspect, 314 00:18:13,079 --> 00:18:16,680 the FBI trailed him and his father. You may remember 315 00:18:16,799 --> 00:18:21,279 driving across the country from Washington State, where he was living, 316 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:25,519 back to Pennsylvania where his parents live, after putting him 317 00:18:25,599 --> 00:18:29,680 under surveillance at the Pennsylvania location. This was over the holidays, 318 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,839 a couple of years ago. Now, the murders took place 319 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,400 in November twenty twenty two, so this would have been 320 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:41,720 around Christmas time. They once again acquired his DNA as 321 00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:46,400 a result of collecting his trash. Courts have ruled over 322 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:50,839 and over again that your discarded trash or other things 323 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,440 that you might throw away, whether it's a soda can, 324 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,680 or a coffee cup or a cigarette, but all those 325 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,480 things have been used in courts of law. Those are 326 00:19:01,519 --> 00:19:07,000 considered discarded if you throw them away. This was a 327 00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:09,480 technique that was used in the Long Island serial killer 328 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:10,640 and the pizza box. 329 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:11,559 Speaker 4: Yeah, pizza box. 330 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,799 Speaker 2: The New York Police Department had the suspect under surveillance, 331 00:19:16,319 --> 00:19:19,319 watched them carefully, watched him throw away his pizza box 332 00:19:19,559 --> 00:19:22,640 on the way home from the office, grabbed up the 333 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:27,400 pizza box and that led to a link between the 334 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,160 suspect and the Long Island serial killer case, which is 335 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:36,160 now pending. I understand the defense in the Coburger example 336 00:19:36,279 --> 00:19:40,359 is going to do everything they can to question every 337 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,000 technique that was used, but it isn't until Coburger is 338 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,759 identified and then ultimately provides a cheek swab to me 339 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:54,000 yet again confirm that his DNA matches touch DNA and 340 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,759 other evidence found at the crime scene, including on the 341 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,519 clasp of the knife. N knife has not yet been recovered, 342 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:06,039 but the leather cover for the knife was very sloppily 343 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,880 I might add, left at the crime scene, and these 344 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,559 are the things that link Coburger. I don't see how 345 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:17,799 Brian Coberger's civil rights have been violated in any way, 346 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:18,640 shape or form. 347 00:20:19,039 --> 00:20:19,759 Speaker 4: It's amazing. 348 00:20:20,599 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 2: This guy apparently thinks he's smarter than anybody, but he 349 00:20:23,319 --> 00:20:28,720 left way more clues, both electronic and physical, than you'd 350 00:20:28,759 --> 00:20:31,279 expect for a guy who was working on his PhD 351 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:32,200 in criminology. 352 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 3: I'm on the Alfred Hitchcock unit in my film class 353 00:20:36,799 --> 00:20:42,119 right now, and we're watching a series of films that 354 00:20:42,839 --> 00:20:45,960 hitch tried to put together about the sort of fanciful 355 00:20:46,079 --> 00:20:49,559 conceit of is there a perfect murder? We just watch 356 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,480 wrote with James Stewart, which is about two college boys 357 00:20:53,519 --> 00:20:56,119 who think they're very much smarter than everyone else trying 358 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,920 to commit the perfect murderer, and of course, ultimately James 359 00:21:00,039 --> 00:21:04,359 Stuart's character, their professor figures it out, alerts everybody they've 360 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,359 killed their classmate and they've put him in the trunk, 361 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,240 and then they served dinner at that dinner party that 362 00:21:10,319 --> 00:21:12,680 night from the top from the trunk, essentially what their 363 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,440 dead classmate's body is. And I was explaining to my kids, 364 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,799 partly from the criminological standpoint, but also like Jesse tongue 365 00:21:20,799 --> 00:21:23,240 in cheek, don't try this at home, I said, there 366 00:21:23,319 --> 00:21:25,880 is no such thing as the perfect murder, as you're 367 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,279 going to see from Hitchcock. Everybody who tries to get 368 00:21:28,319 --> 00:21:30,440 away with the perfect murder doesn't get away with it. 369 00:21:30,519 --> 00:21:33,440 There is no perfect crime. And I feel like Brian 370 00:21:33,519 --> 00:21:37,680 Koberger needed to try to fulfill his idea of Oh, 371 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,640 I can commit the perfect murder. I am so much 372 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,559 smarter than everyone else. Brian A wasn't going to work. 373 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,640 You cannot commit the perfect murder. Don't anybody take that 374 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,039 as a challenge By the way that is not. I'll 375 00:21:49,079 --> 00:21:51,720 show you. I always tell that to most students. I'm like, 376 00:21:51,759 --> 00:21:53,559 do not try any of this at home, don't do it. 377 00:21:54,079 --> 00:21:56,880 Speaker 2: I was wondering if you were referencing your students are 378 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,160 our listeners when. 379 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 3: You said both, actually, and apparently I have some students 380 00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,680 who are going to start listening. So if you are, Hi, 381 00:22:03,839 --> 00:22:08,480 Miss Tillie says hi, thank you. No, I totally agree 382 00:22:08,519 --> 00:22:11,160 with you, Bill, I don't see. I think this is 383 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,440 largely a defense tactic because they're going to try to 384 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,440 hammer apart everything that is available. When we read the 385 00:22:19,519 --> 00:22:22,960 affidavit that on this podcast, I think it was last 386 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,359 year or maybe the year before, it's all running together. 387 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:32,319 They had so much evidence on him. I see how 388 00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:35,119 he is going to possibly get away with it, and 389 00:22:35,279 --> 00:22:38,000 I think this is really just a defense tactic to 390 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,960 try to make sure that this is as protracted a 391 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:42,160 trial as possible. 392 00:22:43,799 --> 00:22:46,559 Speaker 2: You're listening to mind Over Murder. We'll be right back 393 00:22:46,759 --> 00:22:59,519 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 394 00:22:59,519 --> 00:23:06,079 Mindover speaking of This list is from the Idaho Statesman, 395 00:23:06,079 --> 00:23:08,880 who's done some really good reporting as well. Listen to 396 00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:13,119 all the things that the defense wants struck that is 397 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:14,839 taken out of evidence. 398 00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 3: Jeez, here we go. 399 00:23:16,519 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 4: The pieces that. 400 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:22,759 Speaker 2: The defense wants suppressed include DNA taken from coburger that 401 00:23:22,839 --> 00:23:28,200 the state says matches DNA from the crime scene in Moscow, Idaho, 402 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,240 where the four college students were killed, every item seized 403 00:23:32,279 --> 00:23:38,559 from his college apartment, car, and parents Pennsylvania home, and 404 00:23:38,759 --> 00:23:43,000 all the information from his cell phone and online footprint 405 00:23:43,079 --> 00:23:47,359 obtained through search warrants. This is like a Christmas list. 406 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,440 I'm sorry, you really expect that the judge is going 407 00:23:51,519 --> 00:23:57,559 to eliminate all of this incredibly incriminating, really damning evidence. 408 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,599 Speaker 3: That's bizarre and under what grounds are you moving for 409 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,640 that to be struck? It looks bad for my client, Yeah, 410 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,480 it should your client, butchered for students. 411 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,839 Speaker 4: It's amazing. Is there anything else like for Christmas? Here? 412 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:13,640 Speaker 3: Wow? 413 00:24:14,039 --> 00:24:14,839 Speaker 4: Yes, credible? 414 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,839 Speaker 2: He was just how far a defense attorney will go. 415 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,960 The defense has asserted that all of this evidence and 416 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:28,440 still more, including from two search warrants for Coberger's person 417 00:24:28,559 --> 00:24:31,799 that is himself when he was briefly jailed in Pennsylvania 418 00:24:31,839 --> 00:24:34,680 and again when he was brought to Idaho to await trial, 419 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:39,920 should be withheld from a jury over alleged police misconduct. 420 00:24:40,799 --> 00:24:42,000 I just don't see it. 421 00:24:42,519 --> 00:24:43,319 Speaker 3: I don't see it either. 422 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:48,839 Speaker 2: I think they've been very fair and methodical and very careful. 423 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,839 This feels like such a stretch. 424 00:24:53,079 --> 00:24:54,039 Speaker 3: They're blowing smoke. 425 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 2: But at the same time, he faces four counts of 426 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,160 first degree murder and one kind of any burglary, and 427 00:25:01,559 --> 00:25:04,000 Idaho does have the death penalty, and so he could 428 00:25:04,039 --> 00:25:07,079 be sentenced to death if he's convicted. So I understand 429 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:12,160 there's a lot of serious potential ramifications for Coburger and 430 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:16,759 his victims' families and the community who are seeking some 431 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,720 degree of justice here. I think they've done a fantastic job. 432 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,279 I was extremely impressed. In addition to all the physical 433 00:25:25,319 --> 00:25:28,680 evidence that was described in the affidavit, I thought the 434 00:25:29,039 --> 00:25:35,279 electronic breadcrumbs, if you will, was just amazing. Tracking where 435 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,079 his phone was. He made efforts turning his phone off, 436 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:44,039 sometimes turning it back on. Between the phone and the 437 00:25:44,079 --> 00:25:46,759 tracking of his car, of course, there's a lot more 438 00:25:47,079 --> 00:25:50,240 video surveillance equipment throughout the region than there would have 439 00:25:50,279 --> 00:25:52,880 been some years ago, so they were able to put 440 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,559 him and his phone and his car in any number 441 00:25:56,559 --> 00:26:00,480 of locations that allowed them to really track his movements, 442 00:26:00,599 --> 00:26:04,799 both on previous days and on the night of the murders. 443 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,440 I think they've done an amazing job, and if a 444 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:11,680 fair minded jury hears this evidence, I think they're going 445 00:26:11,759 --> 00:26:13,519 to convict I agree. 446 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,519 Speaker 3: We also want to bring you up to date on 447 00:26:15,599 --> 00:26:19,480 a case we talked about earlier this year. We told 448 00:26:19,519 --> 00:26:23,359 you about Brad Spafford of Isle of Wight, Virginia, who 449 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:27,200 was arrested on December seventeenth after the FBI found the 450 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:32,359 largest cash of explosives in the Bureau's history on the 451 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,079 man's property on four Square Road in Isle of Wight. 452 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,559 I've been calling this guy big Explosives Guy in my head, 453 00:26:38,599 --> 00:26:41,119 and now unfortunately I can't get it out of there. 454 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,200 But I have to remind myself it's Brad Spafford of 455 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,000 Isle of Whight, Virginia, not Big Explosives Guy. The FBI 456 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:53,039 had been investigating Spafford since twenty twenty three, when an 457 00:26:53,039 --> 00:26:57,319 informant reported that Spafford and his friends were planning for 458 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:02,519 something quote Spafford would be unable to do alone end quote. 459 00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:06,599 The informant reported that Spafford was making his own AMMO, 460 00:27:07,039 --> 00:27:11,240 stockpiling weapons, and had even blown some of his fingers 461 00:27:11,279 --> 00:27:15,440 off in twenty twenty one while working with explosives. The 462 00:27:15,599 --> 00:27:19,039 informant also shared that Spafford was using photos of then 463 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,079 President Joe Biden for target practice and quote believed that 464 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:28,599 political assassinations should be brought back unquote. Investigators also said 465 00:27:28,599 --> 00:27:32,680 they found explosive devices in an unsecured backpack labeled hashtag 466 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,839 no Lives Matter. Sounds like a stand up guy. 467 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, the whole thing just feels like this black nihilistic, 468 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:50,079 just incredibly bizarre negative philosophy that's driving this guy. In 469 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:55,039 questioning Spafford, he admitted that his goal was to create 470 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,960 ten thousand rounds of homemade ammunition in addition to the 471 00:28:00,039 --> 00:28:02,720 one hundred and fifty pipe bombs, some of which were 472 00:28:02,759 --> 00:28:05,480 incredibly dangerous and unstable. 473 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 3: Well, and that we're going to get a little more 474 00:28:08,559 --> 00:28:12,880 into the major those explosive devices here. In just a second, 475 00:28:13,279 --> 00:28:16,000 Stafford was in court where he pleaded not guilty to 476 00:28:16,079 --> 00:28:19,720 a federal weapons charge of owning an unregistered a short 477 00:28:19,759 --> 00:28:23,920 barrel rifle. He was ultimately indicted by a grand jury 478 00:28:24,039 --> 00:28:28,720 on just one charge of possession of an unregistered destructive device, 479 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,920 even though there were one hundred and fifty finished explosive 480 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,200 devices found in his home. I'm not sure how they 481 00:28:34,279 --> 00:28:36,160 ended up with one charge even though there were one 482 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,720 hundred and fifty devices. Do you know that, Bill, I do. 483 00:28:39,079 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 2: They made a decision, and we've seen this before with 484 00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:46,599 law enforcement. They'll only make an initial charge before the 485 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:51,559 investigation completely unfold. So the initial charge was for a 486 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:56,400 sowd off shotgun. They have not added those additional charges. 487 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,640 I'm sure that they will because this is actually quite 488 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,880 serious when you've got thousands of rounds of ammunition and 489 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:08,200 highly unstable explosives and one hundred and fifty completed devices 490 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,400 which clearly had destructive power by the way, they blew 491 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,839 off three of his fingers a couple of years ago. 492 00:29:13,839 --> 00:29:14,759 Speaker 4: Over the fourth of July. 493 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 3: His defense attorney makes an interesting argument about that I 494 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,240 can't wait to get to I do want to mention 495 00:29:20,319 --> 00:29:23,880 though both of those charges, the short barrel rifle and 496 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,880 the unregistered destructive device are punishable by up to ten 497 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:32,839 years in prison. WVEC reports that the father of two 498 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,359 young children is accused of storing a highly unstable explosive 499 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,680 material in a freezer next to hot pockets and frozen 500 00:29:41,799 --> 00:29:45,440 corn on the cob. According to court documents. So not 501 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,119 only does this guy have highly unstable explosive material, he's 502 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,640 got it in the freezer where his kids could get it. 503 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:52,799 That's horrifying. 504 00:29:53,119 --> 00:29:56,359 Speaker 2: And one of the things I read about Spafford is 505 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,519 that some of this explosive mix that he had in 506 00:29:59,559 --> 00:30:03,920 the free which is effectively a homemade version of C four, 507 00:30:04,039 --> 00:30:08,559 which is a highly explosive military grade weapon. This stuff 508 00:30:08,599 --> 00:30:11,680 could go off just from a shift in temperature. So, 509 00:30:11,759 --> 00:30:15,599 for instance, if his kids or whomever got into the 510 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,079 fridge didn't quite know what the stuff was next to 511 00:30:19,119 --> 00:30:21,279 the hot pockets and the corn on the cob and 512 00:30:21,319 --> 00:30:24,039 then put that out on the kitchen counter where it 513 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,799 might thaw, could have easily exploded, and people could have 514 00:30:28,839 --> 00:30:30,039 been injured or killed. 515 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,119 Speaker 3: Now, his defense attorney interestingly took a different spin on this. 516 00:30:35,519 --> 00:30:39,759 Kenneth Woodward, one of Stafford's attorneys, has questions about the 517 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,079 fairness of the destructive device jar. 518 00:30:45,359 --> 00:30:48,039 Speaker 2: This attorney, if I get in trouble, I want, Kenneth 519 00:30:48,079 --> 00:30:50,400 Woodward is this is crazy. 520 00:30:50,839 --> 00:30:55,079 Speaker 3: According to reporting from the Associated Press, quote Stafford's attorney, 521 00:30:55,119 --> 00:30:58,599 who questioned whether the explosive devices found on his property 522 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,920 were even usable because professionally trained explosive technicians had to 523 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:07,359 rig the devices to explode them unquote. He also pointed 524 00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:10,599 out to the judge that the National Firearms Act, under 525 00:31:10,599 --> 00:31:14,880 which Stafford is charged, does not define what is an explosive. 526 00:31:15,559 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 2: Wow, when you look up brass balls in the dictionary, 527 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,920 this guy's picture has got to be there. They've never 528 00:31:23,039 --> 00:31:28,599 defined what an explosive is. And he actually wanted his 529 00:31:28,759 --> 00:31:32,200 client to be released on bail. Tell me this guy 530 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,160 isn't really dangerous. 531 00:31:34,759 --> 00:31:38,319 Speaker 3: The judge ultimately agreed on the danger part, but I 532 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,680 also wanted to mention one more thing that this brass 533 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,079 ball's attorney, he had said to his defense attorneys stated 534 00:31:46,119 --> 00:31:48,599 in a court filing quote, there is not a shred 535 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,640 of evidence in the record that mister Stafford ever threatened 536 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,559 to anyone, And the contention that someone might be in 537 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,799 danger because of their political views and comments is none sensical. 538 00:32:00,319 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 2: This is a guy who've already blown off three fingers 539 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,799 on one of his hands handling these very same explosives. 540 00:32:08,079 --> 00:32:11,440 What do you mean he's not dangerous. He's a danger 541 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:16,119 to himself and others, including his family. Admittedly, he lives 542 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,640 on a twenty acre spread in Isle of Wight County, 543 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:24,039 so he's probably a bit away from his neighbors. But nonetheless, 544 00:32:24,359 --> 00:32:27,680 even though he had some of these explosives stored in 545 00:32:27,759 --> 00:32:30,960 outbuildings and some of these explosives in the freezer inside 546 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,799 the house, this is an incredibly dangerous man. And Ken 547 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,799 Woodward of Norfolk, Virginia, the attorney is welcome to come 548 00:32:39,799 --> 00:32:43,119 on Mind over Murder and explained to our listeners why 549 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,960 he thinks mister Stafford isn't a danger to himself and others. 550 00:32:47,759 --> 00:32:50,559 Speaker 3: He states that because Stafford is married and has two 551 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,480 young daughters, who works a study job as a machinist, 552 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,279 and has no criminal background, he should not have to 553 00:32:56,319 --> 00:32:59,680 stay in jail to await trial. A US district judge 554 00:32:59,759 --> 00:33:03,119 or to ell right Allan disagreed with that and ordered 555 00:33:03,119 --> 00:33:07,000 Stafford to remain in jail, stating that he has quote 556 00:33:07,039 --> 00:33:12,599 shown the capacity for extreme danger. Thank you, Judge, right Alan, 557 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,079 I think that was the right call. 558 00:33:15,359 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 2: I think so too. I think this guy is nuts 559 00:33:18,519 --> 00:33:20,160 and really dangerous. 560 00:33:21,079 --> 00:33:24,079 Speaker 3: So his next court date is set for May twenty eighth, 561 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,200 and we'll see how that goes. We'll keep you updated, 562 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:27,720 of course. 563 00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:32,039 Speaker 2: Now, the FBI, the ATF, and other law enforcement agencies 564 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:37,319 did destroy many of the explosives because they thought it 565 00:33:37,359 --> 00:33:40,119 was just such a large number that it wasn't safe 566 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,000 to start transporting them. They saved enough for use as evidence, 567 00:33:44,119 --> 00:33:48,480 but neighbors had reported they heard numerous explosions as the 568 00:33:48,559 --> 00:33:52,000 teams had to blow up these explosives on site to 569 00:33:52,319 --> 00:33:57,279 prevent any further risk to the neighbors, his family, or 570 00:33:57,519 --> 00:33:58,240 law enforcement. 571 00:33:59,559 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 3: Wow, this is just unbelievable. And it got lost. Like 572 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,359 you pointed out the first time that we talked about this, 573 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,159 it got lost in the news cycle when the arrest 574 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:10,400 happens because it was so close to it was so 575 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,639 close to the holidays, there was so much else going on. 576 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:15,400 It just got lost in the news cycle. So I 577 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,599 didn't pick up on it. And I'm local. Until you 578 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:20,320 told me about it, I was like, why are you 579 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,039 hearing about local stories before I have? And it was 580 00:34:23,119 --> 00:34:24,960 just it was one of those things that got lost. 581 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,280 And also I was incredibly busy at that point juggling 582 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,840 everything else in my life, so I definitely missed it. Wow, 583 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:33,320 what a story. 584 00:34:33,519 --> 00:34:37,440 Speaker 2: This was all right around Christmas time and there was 585 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,199 a hearing and some of the FBI agents we know 586 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:41,400 had testified. 587 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 4: It took a few days. 588 00:34:43,599 --> 00:34:45,599 Speaker 2: For the story to get some traction, but we were 589 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:48,280 right up against Christmas by that point, and yeah, it 590 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,719 just didn't seem to I was about to. 591 00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:53,039 Speaker 4: Say catch fire, but that's not exactly what I mean. 592 00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 2: But it's a crazy story, but it's also a frightening story, 593 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,840 especially for people live in Isle of Wight and in 594 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:02,880 that area of Virginia. 595 00:35:03,639 --> 00:35:06,679 Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's boy oh boy. 596 00:35:07,599 --> 00:35:09,760 Speaker 2: One more thing we wanted to touch on before we 597 00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:13,519 sign off for today is that we're following the Colonial 598 00:35:13,559 --> 00:35:18,039 Parkway murders investigation very closely, and we've had a couple 599 00:35:18,079 --> 00:35:24,280 of developments involving personnel that are investigating the Colonial Parkway murders. 600 00:35:24,599 --> 00:35:29,519 Our longtime case agent retired from the FBI about ten 601 00:35:29,599 --> 00:35:32,960 days ago, and as you may know, people in law 602 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,400 enforcement retire relatively young. In other words, you're not seventy 603 00:35:37,679 --> 00:35:40,639 or sixty five when you retire from law enforcement. So 604 00:35:40,679 --> 00:35:44,039 we've had this interesting development where our longtime case agent 605 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,000 has a stepped down and we'll be moving on to 606 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,800 another role outside the bureau. And then we just found 607 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:55,599 out that the supervisor of our case who headed up 608 00:35:55,639 --> 00:35:58,159 the Newport News office, has also moved on to a 609 00:35:58,199 --> 00:36:00,760 new role at the FBI, and so we have a 610 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:05,880 new supervisory special Agent. We find ourselves now here. It 611 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:09,079 is it's a new year, a new administration in Washington, 612 00:36:09,159 --> 00:36:13,079 d C. And Chris Ray, the director of the FBI, 613 00:36:13,199 --> 00:36:17,000 that's the top position at the bureau, announced his retirement 614 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:22,079 after then incoming now President Trump indicated he wanted to 615 00:36:22,119 --> 00:36:25,719 have a new director of the FBI, And we just 616 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,719 saw a story that ran over the weekend that Paul 617 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:34,840 Abate Abbat, who is the longtime number two person at 618 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,800 the FBI, also announced his retirement effect of the Sunday 619 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:44,000 before President Trump's inauguration. Very unusual to have the top 620 00:36:44,079 --> 00:36:46,880 two people from the FBI leave at the same time. 621 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,559 To be clear, the top people at the FBI don't 622 00:36:50,599 --> 00:36:53,760 have much to do, if anything, with the Colonial Parkway 623 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,760 murders investigation. But we find ourselves at a very interesting 624 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,559 crossroads here. We have the top two people at the 625 00:36:59,639 --> 00:37:05,639 FBI resigning basically simultaneously and on a much more local 626 00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:09,239 concern in terms of the Colonial Parkway murders, the supervisory 627 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,280 special agent and the special agent who was the case 628 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,800 agent also moving on. The case agent retiring from the FBI, 629 00:37:17,119 --> 00:37:20,440 and our supervisory special agent moving on to a new 630 00:37:20,519 --> 00:37:23,719 role at the FBI, so we're kind of starting fresh. 631 00:37:24,079 --> 00:37:28,199 We've heard the names of our new investigators, but we 632 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,679 haven't spoken with them yet, and at least in one example, 633 00:37:32,199 --> 00:37:34,559 she sat in on some calls that we had with 634 00:37:34,639 --> 00:37:38,280 our previous case agent. Hopefully we'll have an opportunity to 635 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,320 speak with them, and the Colonial Parkway murders families would 636 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:46,400 ultimately like to meet with the new investigators from the FBI, 637 00:37:46,559 --> 00:37:49,559 as well as our longtime investigators from the Virginia State 638 00:37:49,599 --> 00:37:52,920 Police who were handling the other half of the Colonial 639 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,719 Parkway murders, were at this interesting crossroads, and I think 640 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,559 it'll probably be it could be a couple of weeks 641 00:37:59,559 --> 00:38:01,559 to a couple of months before we actually have a 642 00:38:01,639 --> 00:38:03,440 chance to sit down with the new team. 643 00:38:04,039 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 3: I think ultimately that a set of fresh eyes will 644 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:13,480 ultimately benefit the case. I look forward to hearing what 645 00:38:13,519 --> 00:38:17,079 all of your meetings ultimately are like. I am confident 646 00:38:17,199 --> 00:38:20,920 that the new team will want those meetings to happen 647 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:25,599 because I am confident that they will want to establish good, working, 648 00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:29,840 productive relationships with the families. So I'm hoping that this 649 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,599 means a new era of transparency and accountability with the 650 00:38:34,639 --> 00:38:37,440 Bureau with regard to this case, I choose to look 651 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,480 on it as a happy event and hopefully forward momentum 652 00:38:41,559 --> 00:38:43,840 will continue. In twenty twenty five. 653 00:38:44,639 --> 00:38:49,079 Speaker 2: We're way overdue for advanced forensic testing that we were 654 00:38:49,119 --> 00:38:53,960 told was going to be available in October twenty twenty four. 655 00:38:54,079 --> 00:38:59,039 That hasn't happened yet and November twenty twenty four, and 656 00:38:59,039 --> 00:39:02,159 that hasn't happened yet either. But hopefully we'll see some 657 00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,159 forward momentum resume in the coming months. This has been 658 00:39:06,199 --> 00:39:11,199 a really long and frustrating road. I did speak with 659 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,920 the new supervisory special Agent, who is still coming up 660 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,360 to speed on the case, but it was good and 661 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,960 cordial conversation. All we can do is keep moving forward. 662 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,639 Speaker 3: I think he didn't immediately go, oh, let's Bill Thomas 663 00:39:25,639 --> 00:39:27,320 on the other end of the phone. Don't take that 664 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:28,079 guy's calls. 665 00:39:28,599 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 4: I know he was quite good he called me. 666 00:39:31,639 --> 00:39:35,239 Speaker 3: It's good to know. At one point, somebody not related 667 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,480 to our case jokingly but not so jokingly, said that 668 00:39:39,519 --> 00:39:41,519 you and I were going to be blacklisted by the 669 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,400 entire FBI because of all of the work that we do, 670 00:39:45,519 --> 00:39:48,519 and I just am glad that has not come to 671 00:39:48,639 --> 00:39:51,159 pass yet and I am glad that the new guy 672 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,440 up top has had nothing but good conversations with. 673 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 4: You so far. 674 00:39:56,559 --> 00:40:00,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's just move this thing forward. This is it's 675 00:40:00,199 --> 00:40:04,840 a solvable case. FBI and Virginia State Police investigators, some 676 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,000 of them retired now. I have told us repeatedly behind 677 00:40:08,039 --> 00:40:10,960 closed doors, this is a solvable case. 678 00:40:11,599 --> 00:40:12,239 Speaker 4: Let's solve it. 679 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,119 Speaker 3: Yep, new year, new team, new start, Let's do it. 680 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:18,840 We want to thank everybody who was able to come 681 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:23,199 out to visit us at our event at Montclair this 682 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,840 past weekend. We had a wonderful time. We are so 683 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,039 thrilled to be able to talk to you all, meet you, 684 00:40:29,559 --> 00:40:33,559 take selfies with you, talk about your interests. We are 685 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,320 so thankful that we have such wonderful supporters, So thank 686 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,480 you all so very much. We do have some more 687 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,599 live events coming up. We will be at Crime Con 688 00:40:41,679 --> 00:40:45,880 of course in September. We have a event at the 689 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,440 South Norfolk Library in May, and we have a couple 690 00:40:49,519 --> 00:40:52,000 of other things coming up too. Stay tuned. This is 691 00:40:52,039 --> 00:40:54,760 not the only opportunity that you will have to see us, 692 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,440 and I'm hoping we actually get to book a little 693 00:40:57,519 --> 00:41:01,480 something up in the frigid Northeast. Only when it's not frigid. 694 00:41:01,679 --> 00:41:02,599 Speaker 4: Let's wait until May. 695 00:41:03,039 --> 00:41:07,519 Speaker 2: We did record our discussions the other day in Montclair, Virginia, 696 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:10,239 and we'll be running that as an episode of mind 697 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,079 Over Murder. I think you'll find it very interesting. We 698 00:41:13,159 --> 00:41:16,559 look forward to more discussions and let's just keep this 699 00:41:16,639 --> 00:41:17,559 case moving forward. 700 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,519 Speaker 3: All right. Sounds good to me. That is going to 701 00:41:20,519 --> 00:41:22,840 do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank 702 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,840 you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 703 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,320 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 704 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:40,880 Another Dog Productions. 705 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,760 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 706 00:41:45,079 --> 00:41:47,519 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 707 00:41:48,159 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 4: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 708 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,679 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 709 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,599 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 710 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 711 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,280 Murders on Facebook. 712 00:42:03,079 --> 00:42:06,079 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 713 00:42:06,119 --> 00:42:07,760 Bill Thomas five six. 714 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,159 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder