Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast.
Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer,
and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my
experience as the brother of a murder victim to help
other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book
on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co
administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with
Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher,
a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the
social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway
Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas.
Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly.
Speaker 4: And I'm Bill Thomas.
Speaker 3: We're reporting from two very snowy areas of the country.
We got snow here last night, you got snow always,
and so we were just talking about how our pets
are coping with the cold weather. Bill, you were telling
it's about the very serious problem that Oliver is dealing with,
which is cold feet.
Speaker 2: When you go outside to take care of your dog business,
there's a lot of marching up and down are plowed
but still snowy drive, and trying to get poor Oliver
to take care of his doggy business. And of course
I'm out there quietly grumbling, Oliver. The sooner you take
care of this business, the sooner we can go back
inside where it's warm.
Speaker 3: Poor Oliver. I would imagine though, that it is very
tough to be a very small dog in a very
snowy world, especially because you guys get like inches and
inches of the stuff. And Oliver is not a very
big dog.
Speaker 2: He's not very tall. I mean he's tall docks and
so he's long, and he has four wheel drive. He's
got good big paws. He makes his way through the snow,
but he's only a couple of inches off the ground.
That's the problem, is that when you go into maybe
seven inches of snow on the ground, When you make
your way into the seven inches of snow and it's
hitting you midchest, he's not very happy.
Speaker 3: Poor little buddy. He'll get I think maybe on our
social media pages we should ask people to post pet
photos in the snow, pets in the snow. That's a
great idea, you know what, I just came up with
a great idea for myself. I'll go ahead and put
that up on our social media feed once we're done
with this recording Pets in the snow.
Speaker 2: Not everybody is going through snowy times, that is true.
We have listeners all over the world, and I was
talking to some folks on the other side of the
planet where it's summer. It's summer, yeah there, while it's
winter here. I just saw on the news that the
real southern part of the US is getting hit with
some very serious weather.
Speaker 4: We hope everybody's okay.
Speaker 2: These are areas that don't typically get a tremendous amount
of snow, and there's accidents and yeah, school and business closures.
I hope everybody's okay. And then, of course, we stole
have our friends in Los Angeles. I saw a notice
from a musician I've known for years, well known record producer,
and he just put up on social media last night
that their house had burned to the ground with all
of his equipment.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, she.
Speaker 2: Is a very successful home studio. I guess they'll be rebuilding.
But it's just so tragic for the people in southern California.
Speaker 3: It's terrible our thoughts and good vibes and positive energy
go out to everybody who is dealing with something horrific,
whether that is La Wildfire's unseasonably snowy weather, or anything else.
We're here with you, and we wish you nothing but
the best. Today's episode is True Crime News Roundup. We
found a couple of different stories that we thought were
interesting and noteworthy in true crime over the last week
or so, and we wanted to share with you. I'll
present on a story, Bill will present on a story.
We'll both offer some color commentary, and we'll all have
a grand old time. We are a podcast that tends
to stray away from the well known cases over and over,
so we have never reported on this case before now,
but I suppose it had to happen. It's time to
talk about Jack the Ripper.
Speaker 2: I was so afraid you were going to say some
other of our least favorite cases, but I'm glad that
you didn't. So there's news in Jack the Ripper.
Speaker 3: There is news in Jack the Ripper. The British newspaper
The Standard reported this week that Karen Miller, who is
a direct descendant of Catherine Edos, the fourth victim of
Jack the Ripper has called for a new inquest into
the murder of her ancestor and the four other victims
of the notorious serial killer after DNA evidence pointed to
Polish immigrant Aaron Kazminsky as the real identity of Jack
the Ripper.
Speaker 2: Kauzminsky has been in the news, particularly in the last
couple of months after DNA analysis seemed to indicate that
he is likely their responsible individual in the Jack the
Ripper killings.
Speaker 3: Yeah, very much, and this the name isn't new, I
think to anybody who follows the Ripper case. But for
anybody who isn't familiar, here's how all of this has
played out. In two thousand and seven, writer and Jack
the Ripper researcher Russell Edwards bought a blood stain shawl
belonging to Katherine Edos at auction and then submitted it
for DNA testing. The shawl contained the DNA of both
Katherine Edos and Aaron Kazminsky. Edo's DNA came from blood
stains on the shawl and Kazminsky's DNA came from seamen stains.
So these were both tested and the DNA results came back.
So here's what we know about Aaron Kazminsky. Kazminsky lived
in Whitechapel at the time of the murders. He was
known to the police and he was on the suspect list.
He was reported to police by a witness who saw
him with one of the victims. Because that witness then
refused to offer up their evidence into the formal record,
the police couldn't hold Aaron Kasminsky, so he was never
arrested or charged with any of the Jack the Ripper crimes.
Speaker 2: And this is in the eighteen eighty eight time frame,
so this is at a time when a lot of
forensic developments, some of which we'll talk about.
Speaker 4: Today were not available.
Speaker 2: Without evidence, and without this testimony, they don't really have
any legal reason to hold Kasminsky.
Speaker 3: The DNA findings, though now definitively link Kusminsky to the
blood stain shawl belonging to Edo's. Russell Edwards has hired
a legal team to fight for a new inquest into
the Ripper murders. He stated that the DNA results now
offer the coroner new evidence in the case and point
to the real perpetrator. In addition, the descendants of both
Katherine Edos and Aaron Kazminski fully support the inquest, which
I thought was very interesting me too.
Speaker 4: I was very struck by this.
Speaker 2: I understand that Katherine Edo's family would be very interested
in this. I find it fascinating that Aaron Kazminsky's family
is also interested in getting to the bottom of the
Jack the Ripper case.
Speaker 3: Yeah, very much so. I've got quotes from both of them.
Karen Miller, who is Katherine Edo's great granddaughter, said, quote
the name Jack the Ripper has become sensationalized. It has
gone down in history as this famous character. It's all
been about him, this iconic name, but people have forgotten
about the victims who did not have justice at the time.
By the way, stop there for one second. The names
of the other Jack the Ripper victims, for the record
are Mary Ann Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride, Katherine Edos,
and Mary Jane Kelly. We don't ever want to forget that.
These are all women who had they names, they had lives,
they had families, and I think we do tend to
forget that because when we refer to this case, we
refer to it as Jack the Ripper. We don't refer
to it by victim names, which we have all become
more sensitive to, I think in the last ten to
fifteen years or so within the true crime space. But yeah,
for anybody who doesn't know the names of those victims,
there they are.
Speaker 2: It's interesting that at one time this case was referred
to as the White Chapel murders, and then he was
also referred to as leather Apron, which is a little
too creepy for me, but.
Speaker 3: It's a little too close to leather face.
Speaker 2: It is striking how much focus there has been on
the offender and not on the victims.
Speaker 3: Karen Miller continued by saying, what about the real name
of the person who did this? Having the real person
legally named in a court which can consider all the
evidence would be a form of justice for the victims.
We have got the proof, now we need this inquest
to lead named the killer. It would mean a lot
to me, to my family, and to a lot of
people to finally have this crime solved. End quote.
Speaker 2: And I love the idea of applying modern technology to
an infamous case that I think people around the world know,
and to have this mystery solved after all these years.
Obviously because Minsky's been dead for many years. All of
the victims are gone, but there are family members who
are impacted here, like Karen Miller.
Speaker 3: Exactly because Minsky's great niece Amanda Polos, also weighed in
an interview with The Daily Mail. She said, quote, I'm
more than happy to finally establish what really happened end quote.
So this is very interesting. It was noted in the
reporting from CBS that there are some people in the
scientific community who have cast doubt on the findings. They
said the DNA research was not published in a peer
reviewed scientific journal, meaning the claims cannot be in a
verified or the methodology scrutinized. I'm not sure why there's
that reticence there. We know that DNA testing is pretty reliable.
I'm not sure if the hesitancy is because the fabric
is so old or the stains are degraded. I'm not
entirely clear on why that seems to be a problem
for people. That was brought up in the CBS article.
Speaker 2: It'd be interesting to see if an effort is made
now to move this forward, if those kind of steps
can be taken, where complete analysis can be done and
articles written for scientific journals where we can be pretty
much assured that this forensic inquiry is accurate and that
we've got the DNA matches. I'm fascinated to see how
this pans out.
Speaker 3: So this is actually the second time that Russell Edwards
has approached the High Court to receive or to request
a new inquest into the case. The last time was
too years ago when the then Attorney General said the
new evidence was not enough to warrant an inquest. And
again I'm not sure why that is. It was DNA,
but okay, So I want to quote from the Standard
here a quote. Barrister doctor Tim Sampson said that this
set a terrible precedent in relation to requests to reopen
inquests involving the violent deaths of women, and gives the
impression that such matters are better brushed under the carpet.
He's written to Attorney General Richard Hermer arguing there is
new evidence to consider which, if it had been available
at the time, would have been justifiable for the coroner
to charge and then seek to have Aaron Kasminsky prosecuted
for both the murder of Mizzados and the four other victims.
End quote. So are we finally going to see answers
in the eighteen eighty eight murders, I hope so. I
think that would be great. It would be nice to
have one of these very very popular true crime cases
finally off the books entirely.
Speaker 2: As you mentioned, there's five families directly impacted, and I
think truly millions of people around the world would find
this a fascinating inquiry. I think this can be done
in a thoughtful, methodical, professional manner, as if Kuzminski were
alive today and was going to be prosecuted in a
court of law now.
Speaker 3: I also think that even if they do have the
inquest and the case is properly closed, I'm sure that
there will still be people out there who have made
their names and made their careers on ripperology and Jack
the Ripper research who will dispute it or argue, you know,
they got it wrong, or something like that. I remember
reading Patricia Cornwell wrote a book about her Jack the
Ripper research, and she is absolutely positive that artist Walter
Sickert is Jack the Ripper. There are also people out
there who argue that at one point the Prime Minister
of Great Britain could have been Jack the ripper. I
am sure that there are going to be people out
there who are going to look at this and go
that doesn't track my suspects the right one. But I
think that's true in a lot of cases. I think
that if we do eventually learn the identity of the zodiac,
for example, there will be plenty of people who were like, no,
that they got it wrong. I got it right. So
I'm not sure that there's ever a real way of
putting this to bed entirely, but I would love to
see somebody try.
Speaker 2: I think let's follow the science here. I hope that
the inquiry is allowed to move forward, and this would
be absolutely fascinating to see if a case from one
hundred and forty years ago can be solved.
Speaker 3: And we want to credit CBS News and The Standard
for their reporting on this case, as they were the
major sources that I relied on as I wrote up
this information. So thank you to CBS News and The Standard.
You guys did a great job as always.
Speaker 2: So moving forward then to a more contemporary case, but
one in which many of the same issues are coming
to four. Now, many of you know we been following
the Idaho four case. That's the case where Brian Cooberger
is currently charged with the murder of University of Idaho
students Kaylie Gankalvis Madison Mogan, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapman.
Forensic investigative genetic genealogy or IgG was used in this case.
A number of media sources are reporting and quoting from
the Latin Times. A precedent setting decision in the Idaho
college murders case is expected this week, as the judge
will rule on the use of genetic genealogy evidence the
prosecutors say links Brian Coberger to the brutal crimes. Coberger,
who is a former criminology PhD student, faces charges in
the November twenty twenty two murders of four University of
Idaho students, and we just talked about them. His attorneys
argue that the use of investigative genetics genealogy or IgG
to pinpoint him as a suspect raises constitutional and scientific concerns.
Quote Investigative genetics genealogy is an effective tool, forensic expert
Tiffany Roy told The Union Leader, But the question is
does it violate civil rights?
Speaker 4: Now?
Speaker 2: Prosecutors allege that DNA on a knife sheath that was
found at the crime scene matches Coburger's genetic profile and
ties him.
Speaker 4: To the murders.
Speaker 2: Coburger's defense team claims the process by which law enforcement
initially identified him using IgG violates his privacy rights. Now
we know some of the people that have worked on
this case. We're not going to name them, but we
know people that have worked on this case and have
worked on the IgG technology that was used. Now, this
particular publication calls it a controversial technique. I'm shrugging my
shoulders here. I don't see it as all that controversial.
It's been yeah on either It's been used in hundreds
of cases. It has solved a number of different unsolved
sexual assaults, murders, and missing persons cases. They describe it
as controversial. The controversial technique involves uploading DNA to genealogy
websites to trace potential relatives and narrow down suspects, although
prosecutors argue that DNA evidence ultimately came from a direct
swab of Coburger's cheek, and that's really important that if
defense maintains the method used lacks transparency. As we've talked
about many times on mind over murder. IgG is simply
a tool. Kristin and I were talking about this offline today.
It's interesting. Around the same time as the Jack the
Ripper case in the eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties is
when fingerprint technology, which had actually been around for literally
thousands of years, but was never used in a court
of law until eighteen ninety two. It's amazing how we're
completely comfortable with fingerprints being used and being used to
convict people as far back as eighteen ninety two in
Buenos Aires, Argentina, then in the UK, and then finally
in nineteen oh two here in the United States. I
feel like the use of DNA identification is not a
big step from fingerprints. I'm gesturing while I'm talking with you,
and I'm putting my hand on the top of my desk.
I'm sure that if we came in and fingerprinted my
home office here Slash Podcast Studio, there would probably be
hundreds of my fingerprints. And fingerprints are used all day,
every day by the FBI and law enforcement agencies across
the country to identify suspects. Investigative genetic genealogy is essentially
the same thing. It's just a digital fingerprint of your DNA.
And let's remember, after Coburger was identified as a potential suspect,
the FBI trailed him and his father. You may remember
driving across the country from Washington State, where he was living,
back to Pennsylvania where his parents live, after putting him
under surveillance at the Pennsylvania location. This was over the holidays,
a couple of years ago. Now, the murders took place
in November twenty twenty two, so this would have been
around Christmas time. They once again acquired his DNA as
a result of collecting his trash. Courts have ruled over
and over again that your discarded trash or other things
that you might throw away, whether it's a soda can,
or a coffee cup or a cigarette, but all those
things have been used in courts of law. Those are
considered discarded if you throw them away. This was a
technique that was used in the Long Island serial killer
and the pizza box.
Speaker 4: Yeah, pizza box.
Speaker 2: The New York Police Department had the suspect under surveillance,
watched them carefully, watched him throw away his pizza box
on the way home from the office, grabbed up the
pizza box and that led to a link between the
suspect and the Long Island serial killer case, which is
now pending. I understand the defense in the Coburger example
is going to do everything they can to question every
technique that was used, but it isn't until Coburger is
identified and then ultimately provides a cheek swab to me
yet again confirm that his DNA matches touch DNA and
other evidence found at the crime scene, including on the
clasp of the knife. N knife has not yet been recovered,
but the leather cover for the knife was very sloppily
I might add, left at the crime scene, and these
are the things that link Coburger. I don't see how
Brian Coberger's civil rights have been violated in any way,
shape or form.
Speaker 4: It's amazing.
Speaker 2: This guy apparently thinks he's smarter than anybody, but he
left way more clues, both electronic and physical, than you'd
expect for a guy who was working on his PhD
in criminology.
Speaker 3: I'm on the Alfred Hitchcock unit in my film class
right now, and we're watching a series of films that
hitch tried to put together about the sort of fanciful
conceit of is there a perfect murder? We just watch
wrote with James Stewart, which is about two college boys
who think they're very much smarter than everyone else trying
to commit the perfect murderer, and of course, ultimately James
Stuart's character, their professor figures it out, alerts everybody they've
killed their classmate and they've put him in the trunk,
and then they served dinner at that dinner party that
night from the top from the trunk, essentially what their
dead classmate's body is. And I was explaining to my kids,
partly from the criminological standpoint, but also like Jesse tongue
in cheek, don't try this at home, I said, there
is no such thing as the perfect murder, as you're
going to see from Hitchcock. Everybody who tries to get
away with the perfect murder doesn't get away with it.
There is no perfect crime. And I feel like Brian
Koberger needed to try to fulfill his idea of Oh,
I can commit the perfect murder. I am so much
smarter than everyone else. Brian A wasn't going to work.
You cannot commit the perfect murder. Don't anybody take that
as a challenge By the way that is not. I'll
show you. I always tell that to most students. I'm like,
do not try any of this at home, don't do it.
Speaker 2: I was wondering if you were referencing your students are
our listeners when.
Speaker 3: You said both, actually, and apparently I have some students
who are going to start listening. So if you are, Hi,
Miss Tillie says hi, thank you. No, I totally agree
with you, Bill, I don't see. I think this is
largely a defense tactic because they're going to try to
hammer apart everything that is available. When we read the
affidavit that on this podcast, I think it was last
year or maybe the year before, it's all running together.
They had so much evidence on him. I see how
he is going to possibly get away with it, and
I think this is really just a defense tactic to
try to make sure that this is as protracted a
trial as possible.
Speaker 2: You're listening to mind Over Murder. We'll be right back
after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at
Mindover speaking of This list is from the Idaho Statesman,
who's done some really good reporting as well. Listen to
all the things that the defense wants struck that is
taken out of evidence.
Speaker 3: Jeez, here we go.
Speaker 4: The pieces that.
Speaker 2: The defense wants suppressed include DNA taken from coburger that
the state says matches DNA from the crime scene in Moscow, Idaho,
where the four college students were killed, every item seized
from his college apartment, car, and parents Pennsylvania home, and
all the information from his cell phone and online footprint
obtained through search warrants. This is like a Christmas list.
I'm sorry, you really expect that the judge is going
to eliminate all of this incredibly incriminating, really damning evidence.
Speaker 3: That's bizarre and under what grounds are you moving for
that to be struck? It looks bad for my client, Yeah,
it should your client, butchered for students.
Speaker 4: It's amazing. Is there anything else like for Christmas? Here?
Speaker 3: Wow?
Speaker 4: Yes, credible?
Speaker 2: He was just how far a defense attorney will go.
The defense has asserted that all of this evidence and
still more, including from two search warrants for Coberger's person
that is himself when he was briefly jailed in Pennsylvania
and again when he was brought to Idaho to await trial,
should be withheld from a jury over alleged police misconduct.
I just don't see it.
Speaker 3: I don't see it either.
Speaker 2: I think they've been very fair and methodical and very careful.
This feels like such a stretch.
Speaker 3: They're blowing smoke.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, he faces four counts of
first degree murder and one kind of any burglary, and
Idaho does have the death penalty, and so he could
be sentenced to death if he's convicted. So I understand
there's a lot of serious potential ramifications for Coburger and
his victims' families and the community who are seeking some
degree of justice here. I think they've done a fantastic job.
I was extremely impressed. In addition to all the physical
evidence that was described in the affidavit, I thought the
electronic breadcrumbs, if you will, was just amazing. Tracking where
his phone was. He made efforts turning his phone off,
sometimes turning it back on. Between the phone and the
tracking of his car, of course, there's a lot more
video surveillance equipment throughout the region than there would have
been some years ago, so they were able to put
him and his phone and his car in any number
of locations that allowed them to really track his movements,
both on previous days and on the night of the murders.
I think they've done an amazing job, and if a
fair minded jury hears this evidence, I think they're going
to convict I agree.
Speaker 3: We also want to bring you up to date on
a case we talked about earlier this year. We told
you about Brad Spafford of Isle of Wight, Virginia, who
was arrested on December seventeenth after the FBI found the
largest cash of explosives in the Bureau's history on the
man's property on four Square Road in Isle of Wight.
I've been calling this guy big Explosives Guy in my head,
and now unfortunately I can't get it out of there.
But I have to remind myself it's Brad Spafford of
Isle of Whight, Virginia, not Big Explosives Guy. The FBI
had been investigating Spafford since twenty twenty three, when an
informant reported that Spafford and his friends were planning for
something quote Spafford would be unable to do alone end quote.
The informant reported that Spafford was making his own AMMO,
stockpiling weapons, and had even blown some of his fingers
off in twenty twenty one while working with explosives. The
informant also shared that Spafford was using photos of then
President Joe Biden for target practice and quote believed that
political assassinations should be brought back unquote. Investigators also said
they found explosive devices in an unsecured backpack labeled hashtag
no Lives Matter. Sounds like a stand up guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the whole thing just feels like this black nihilistic,
just incredibly bizarre negative philosophy that's driving this guy. In
questioning Spafford, he admitted that his goal was to create
ten thousand rounds of homemade ammunition in addition to the
one hundred and fifty pipe bombs, some of which were
incredibly dangerous and unstable.
Speaker 3: Well, and that we're going to get a little more
into the major those explosive devices here. In just a second,
Stafford was in court where he pleaded not guilty to
a federal weapons charge of owning an unregistered a short
barrel rifle. He was ultimately indicted by a grand jury
on just one charge of possession of an unregistered destructive device,
even though there were one hundred and fifty finished explosive
devices found in his home. I'm not sure how they
ended up with one charge even though there were one
hundred and fifty devices. Do you know that, Bill, I do.
Speaker 2: They made a decision, and we've seen this before with
law enforcement. They'll only make an initial charge before the
investigation completely unfold. So the initial charge was for a
sowd off shotgun. They have not added those additional charges.
I'm sure that they will because this is actually quite
serious when you've got thousands of rounds of ammunition and
highly unstable explosives and one hundred and fifty completed devices
which clearly had destructive power by the way, they blew
off three of his fingers a couple of years ago.
Speaker 4: Over the fourth of July.
Speaker 3: His defense attorney makes an interesting argument about that I
can't wait to get to I do want to mention
though both of those charges, the short barrel rifle and
the unregistered destructive device are punishable by up to ten
years in prison. WVEC reports that the father of two
young children is accused of storing a highly unstable explosive
material in a freezer next to hot pockets and frozen
corn on the cob. According to court documents. So not
only does this guy have highly unstable explosive material, he's
got it in the freezer where his kids could get it.
That's horrifying.
Speaker 2: And one of the things I read about Spafford is
that some of this explosive mix that he had in
the free which is effectively a homemade version of C four,
which is a highly explosive military grade weapon. This stuff
could go off just from a shift in temperature. So,
for instance, if his kids or whomever got into the
fridge didn't quite know what the stuff was next to
the hot pockets and the corn on the cob and
then put that out on the kitchen counter where it
might thaw, could have easily exploded, and people could have
been injured or killed.
Speaker 3: Now, his defense attorney interestingly took a different spin on this.
Kenneth Woodward, one of Stafford's attorneys, has questions about the
fairness of the destructive device jar.
Speaker 2: This attorney, if I get in trouble, I want, Kenneth
Woodward is this is crazy.
Speaker 3: According to reporting from the Associated Press, quote Stafford's attorney,
who questioned whether the explosive devices found on his property
were even usable because professionally trained explosive technicians had to
rig the devices to explode them unquote. He also pointed
out to the judge that the National Firearms Act, under
which Stafford is charged, does not define what is an explosive.
Speaker 2: Wow, when you look up brass balls in the dictionary,
this guy's picture has got to be there. They've never
defined what an explosive is. And he actually wanted his
client to be released on bail. Tell me this guy
isn't really dangerous.
Speaker 3: The judge ultimately agreed on the danger part, but I
also wanted to mention one more thing that this brass
ball's attorney, he had said to his defense attorneys stated
in a court filing quote, there is not a shred
of evidence in the record that mister Stafford ever threatened
to anyone, And the contention that someone might be in
danger because of their political views and comments is none sensical.
Speaker 2: This is a guy who've already blown off three fingers
on one of his hands handling these very same explosives.
What do you mean he's not dangerous. He's a danger
to himself and others, including his family. Admittedly, he lives
on a twenty acre spread in Isle of Wight County,
so he's probably a bit away from his neighbors. But nonetheless,
even though he had some of these explosives stored in
outbuildings and some of these explosives in the freezer inside
the house, this is an incredibly dangerous man. And Ken
Woodward of Norfolk, Virginia, the attorney is welcome to come
on Mind over Murder and explained to our listeners why
he thinks mister Stafford isn't a danger to himself and others.
Speaker 3: He states that because Stafford is married and has two
young daughters, who works a study job as a machinist,
and has no criminal background, he should not have to
stay in jail to await trial. A US district judge
or to ell right Allan disagreed with that and ordered
Stafford to remain in jail, stating that he has quote
shown the capacity for extreme danger. Thank you, Judge, right Alan,
I think that was the right call.
Speaker 2: I think so too. I think this guy is nuts
and really dangerous.
Speaker 3: So his next court date is set for May twenty eighth,
and we'll see how that goes. We'll keep you updated,
of course.
Speaker 2: Now, the FBI, the ATF, and other law enforcement agencies
did destroy many of the explosives because they thought it
was just such a large number that it wasn't safe
to start transporting them. They saved enough for use as evidence,
but neighbors had reported they heard numerous explosions as the
teams had to blow up these explosives on site to
prevent any further risk to the neighbors, his family, or
law enforcement.
Speaker 3: Wow, this is just unbelievable. And it got lost. Like
you pointed out the first time that we talked about this,
it got lost in the news cycle when the arrest
happens because it was so close to it was so
close to the holidays, there was so much else going on.
It just got lost in the news cycle. So I
didn't pick up on it. And I'm local. Until you
told me about it, I was like, why are you
hearing about local stories before I have? And it was
just it was one of those things that got lost.
And also I was incredibly busy at that point juggling
everything else in my life, so I definitely missed it. Wow,
what a story.
Speaker 2: This was all right around Christmas time and there was
a hearing and some of the FBI agents we know
had testified.
Speaker 4: It took a few days.
Speaker 2: For the story to get some traction, but we were
right up against Christmas by that point, and yeah, it
just didn't seem to I was about to.
Speaker 4: Say catch fire, but that's not exactly what I mean.
Speaker 2: But it's a crazy story, but it's also a frightening story,
especially for people live in Isle of Wight and in
that area of Virginia.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's boy oh boy.
Speaker 2: One more thing we wanted to touch on before we
sign off for today is that we're following the Colonial
Parkway murders investigation very closely, and we've had a couple
of developments involving personnel that are investigating the Colonial Parkway murders.
Our longtime case agent retired from the FBI about ten
days ago, and as you may know, people in law
enforcement retire relatively young. In other words, you're not seventy
or sixty five when you retire from law enforcement. So
we've had this interesting development where our longtime case agent
has a stepped down and we'll be moving on to
another role outside the bureau. And then we just found
out that the supervisor of our case who headed up
the Newport News office, has also moved on to a
new role at the FBI, and so we have a
new supervisory special Agent. We find ourselves now here. It
is it's a new year, a new administration in Washington,
d C. And Chris Ray, the director of the FBI,
that's the top position at the bureau, announced his retirement
after then incoming now President Trump indicated he wanted to
have a new director of the FBI, And we just
saw a story that ran over the weekend that Paul
Abate Abbat, who is the longtime number two person at
the FBI, also announced his retirement effect of the Sunday
before President Trump's inauguration. Very unusual to have the top
two people from the FBI leave at the same time.
To be clear, the top people at the FBI don't
have much to do, if anything, with the Colonial Parkway
murders investigation. But we find ourselves at a very interesting
crossroads here. We have the top two people at the
FBI resigning basically simultaneously and on a much more local
concern in terms of the Colonial Parkway murders, the supervisory
special agent and the special agent who was the case
agent also moving on. The case agent retiring from the FBI,
and our supervisory special agent moving on to a new
role at the FBI, so we're kind of starting fresh.
We've heard the names of our new investigators, but we
haven't spoken with them yet, and at least in one example,
she sat in on some calls that we had with
our previous case agent. Hopefully we'll have an opportunity to
speak with them, and the Colonial Parkway murders families would
ultimately like to meet with the new investigators from the FBI,
as well as our longtime investigators from the Virginia State
Police who were handling the other half of the Colonial
Parkway murders, were at this interesting crossroads, and I think
it'll probably be it could be a couple of weeks
to a couple of months before we actually have a
chance to sit down with the new team.
Speaker 3: I think ultimately that a set of fresh eyes will
ultimately benefit the case. I look forward to hearing what
all of your meetings ultimately are like. I am confident
that the new team will want those meetings to happen
because I am confident that they will want to establish good, working,
productive relationships with the families. So I'm hoping that this
means a new era of transparency and accountability with the
Bureau with regard to this case, I choose to look
on it as a happy event and hopefully forward momentum
will continue. In twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2: We're way overdue for advanced forensic testing that we were
told was going to be available in October twenty twenty four.
That hasn't happened yet and November twenty twenty four, and
that hasn't happened yet either. But hopefully we'll see some
forward momentum resume in the coming months. This has been
a really long and frustrating road. I did speak with
the new supervisory special Agent, who is still coming up
to speed on the case, but it was good and
cordial conversation. All we can do is keep moving forward.
Speaker 3: I think he didn't immediately go, oh, let's Bill Thomas
on the other end of the phone. Don't take that
guy's calls.
Speaker 4: I know he was quite good he called me.
Speaker 3: It's good to know. At one point, somebody not related
to our case jokingly but not so jokingly, said that
you and I were going to be blacklisted by the
entire FBI because of all of the work that we do,
and I just am glad that has not come to
pass yet and I am glad that the new guy
up top has had nothing but good conversations with.
Speaker 4: You so far.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's just move this thing forward. This is it's
a solvable case. FBI and Virginia State Police investigators, some
of them retired now. I have told us repeatedly behind
closed doors, this is a solvable case.
Speaker 4: Let's solve it.
Speaker 3: Yep, new year, new team, new start, Let's do it.
We want to thank everybody who was able to come
out to visit us at our event at Montclair this
past weekend. We had a wonderful time. We are so
thrilled to be able to talk to you all, meet you,
take selfies with you, talk about your interests. We are
so thankful that we have such wonderful supporters, So thank
you all so very much. We do have some more
live events coming up. We will be at Crime Con
of course in September. We have a event at the
South Norfolk Library in May, and we have a couple
of other things coming up too. Stay tuned. This is
not the only opportunity that you will have to see us,
and I'm hoping we actually get to book a little
something up in the frigid Northeast. Only when it's not frigid.
Speaker 4: Let's wait until May.
Speaker 2: We did record our discussions the other day in Montclair, Virginia,
and we'll be running that as an episode of mind
Over Murder. I think you'll find it very interesting. We
look forward to more discussions and let's just keep this
case moving forward.
Speaker 3: All right. Sounds good to me. That is going to
do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank
you so much for listening. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and
Another Dog Productions.
Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley.
Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.
Speaker 4: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud.
Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media.
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram.
Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway
Murders on Facebook.
Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at
Bill Thomas five six.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder