1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,439 Welcome to mind Over Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm 14 00:00:45,439 --> 00:00:48,920 Bill Thomas. Beautiful spring day here in coastal Virginia. We're 15 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,039 happy to be back with a new episode of mind 16 00:00:51,039 --> 00:00:52,840 Over Murder. How are you doing, mister Thomas. 17 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,039 Speaker 2: We're having a beautiful spring day too. Ours is not 18 00:00:55,119 --> 00:00:57,920 as warm as yours, but it is fun. We actually 19 00:00:58,000 --> 00:00:59,560 sat outside on the porch. 20 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:02,079 Speaker 3: That is fantastic. 21 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 2: For the second time so far this. 22 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 3: Season, Here we go It can only go up from. 23 00:01:06,799 --> 00:01:10,159 Speaker 2: Here, right, and the ice floes in our sideyard are 24 00:01:10,159 --> 00:01:13,959 finally gone. There are still snow mounds, but we're getting there. 25 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:16,519 Speaker 3: I would not want to live where you live. 26 00:01:17,079 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 2: Come April fifteenth. It'll be a whole different story. 27 00:01:21,239 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 3: You just happen to mention text day too. 28 00:01:23,159 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: It was interesting, don't get me started. 29 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 3: Today. We wanted to cover a case that I recently 30 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,719 learned about and found absolutely fascinating. And when something like 31 00:01:35,719 --> 00:01:38,239 that happens to me, usually the first person that I 32 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,799 call is my partner in crime, Bill Thomas, and say, hey, 33 00:01:40,879 --> 00:01:43,000 I heard about this case. Can we cover it on 34 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,640 the pod? And usually he's good enough to say yes. 35 00:01:46,799 --> 00:01:50,799 Speaker 2: You came in with the ooh, I got this great idea, 36 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,079 and it was a case I remembered. I guess I 37 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,200 was about nineteen or twenty when this happened, but I 38 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,439 do remember it was a national story. Amazingly, we're just 39 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,439 talking about this. It doesn't seem to have lasted in 40 00:02:04,519 --> 00:02:08,000 terms of people's memories, partly because I don't think it 41 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,120 got as much coverage as a case like this would today. 42 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 3: Absolutely, if this were to happen today, it would be 43 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,680 national press for ages and ages. There would be lots 44 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,039 of books about it, definitely movies. We are talking about 45 00:02:23,039 --> 00:02:27,800 the Chelchilla mass kidnapping from nineteen seventy six. This is 46 00:02:27,879 --> 00:02:30,960 something that I only recently learned about, but as soon 47 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,280 as I heard about it, it was like, we're covering 48 00:02:33,319 --> 00:02:35,560 this on the pod. This is the good reason to 49 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,719 have a true crime podcast. You get to talk about 50 00:02:38,719 --> 00:02:41,199 the things you want to talk about. So of interest 51 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:45,680 today is the Chelchilla mass kidnapping. At four pm on 52 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:51,240 July fifteenth, nineteen seventy six, in the agricultural town of Childchilla, California, 53 00:02:51,479 --> 00:02:55,199 a school bus carrying twenty six kids ranging in age 54 00:02:55,199 --> 00:02:58,719 from five to fourteen, was hijacked on its way back 55 00:02:58,759 --> 00:03:02,080 to the dairy land score from a summer school field 56 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,080 trip to a local rule. And that is only the 57 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:09,439 beginning of one of the most chilling and confounding kidnapping 58 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:14,639 cases in modern history. The ramifications for the child victims 59 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,879 of this kidnapping were long lasting. The trauma of the 60 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:20,919 event remains just as strong today as it was on 61 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,240 that hot summer day in nineteen seventy six. And we're 62 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,520 going to unpack the case for you over the next 63 00:03:26,599 --> 00:03:29,719 few episodes of Mind Over Murder. Before we get into 64 00:03:29,759 --> 00:03:32,639 a deep dive of the case, Bill start by telling 65 00:03:32,719 --> 00:03:36,599 us about the community of Childchilla, California. I keep on 66 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,039 into calling it Chinchilla, and that's not right. 67 00:03:40,319 --> 00:03:43,919 Speaker 2: And Pamela, my partner, was calling Chowchilla by the wrong 68 00:03:44,039 --> 00:03:48,960 name earlier today as well. So Chowchilla. And don't take 69 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,039 this the wrong way. If you live in the Central 70 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:55,439 Valley of California, Chowchilla is probably as close to the 71 00:03:55,439 --> 00:03:58,680 middle of nowhere as you're going to find. One of 72 00:03:58,719 --> 00:04:01,240 the questions that you and I have come up with 73 00:04:01,319 --> 00:04:04,560 and we have not found a satisfactory answer so far, 74 00:04:04,919 --> 00:04:09,159 is why this occurred in Chowchilla. Because the offenders, and 75 00:04:09,199 --> 00:04:11,960 we'll get into more details, we're from over one hundred 76 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,199 miles away in a much more affluent part of California. 77 00:04:15,319 --> 00:04:20,720 Chowchilla is a small city in Madera County, California. It's 78 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,959 right smack dab in the middle of the state. It's 79 00:04:24,199 --> 00:04:27,600 inland quite a bit, so it's well away from the coast, 80 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,199 and it's in what they call the Central Valley of California. 81 00:04:31,759 --> 00:04:33,920 I know, when a lot of us think about California, 82 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:39,160 we think about our big cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco, Sacramento, 83 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:41,240 which is the state capital, which is in the middle. 84 00:04:41,759 --> 00:04:48,319 Places like Chowchilla are agricultural, very small. It's a city, 85 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:50,920 but it's only a city of current population of about 86 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:57,000 nineteen thousand, and the three largest industries in Chowchilla are agriculture. 87 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:00,279 There's a tremendous amount of farming and ranching there. And 88 00:05:00,319 --> 00:05:03,480 then two other things. They're both prisons, the Central California 89 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:08,360 Women's Facility, which is also the home for California's female 90 00:05:08,439 --> 00:05:12,600 death row, and the Valley State Prison. So there's not 91 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:15,839 a lot there. And again I'm not disparaging the place. 92 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:21,120 Driving through that Central Valley, it's just big and wide 93 00:05:21,199 --> 00:05:25,079 and open. There is a tremendous amount of agriculture there. 94 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,319 It's what they call a Mediterranean climate. It's quite warm 95 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,160 in the summer, as you mentioned, it can go down 96 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,240 to about forty five degrees in the wintertime. They bring 97 00:05:35,319 --> 00:05:37,879 in a lot of water from other parts of the state. 98 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,120 And there's just a tremendous amount of farming, farming, and ranching. 99 00:05:41,519 --> 00:05:46,399 There are facilities for the slaughter of pigs and cows. 100 00:05:46,399 --> 00:05:49,920 Not a particularly pleasant place. As I said one of 101 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:52,079 our head scratchers, we still don't have a good answer 102 00:05:52,199 --> 00:05:57,319 yet is how these three offenders chose Chowchilla. But I 103 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,399 think the fact that it's in the middle of nowhere 104 00:05:59,439 --> 00:06:01,240 probably had something to do with that. 105 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 3: I agree with you, that seems pretty likely. So let's 106 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,199 get into what actually happened in Childchilla. Based on what 107 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,360 Bill just told us, Childchilla is just a quiet rural community, 108 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,639 but it wasn't until nineteen seventy six that it hit 109 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:21,120 the national news in a very big way. And here 110 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:24,560 is what happened. On the way home from that field 111 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,920 trip that we mentioned at the top of the pod. 112 00:06:27,199 --> 00:06:30,120 A white van pulled into the middle of the road 113 00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:34,079 and stopped the school bus. Men wearing pantyhose over their 114 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:39,040 heads and carrying sod off shotguns, boarded and then commandeered 115 00:06:39,079 --> 00:06:42,920 the bus. One man drove the bus, the other held 116 00:06:42,959 --> 00:06:47,360 the driver, fifty five year old Frank Edward ed Ray 117 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,600 at gunpoint, and the third offender drove the white van 118 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:54,360 behind the bus. Bill, when we were talking a little 119 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:56,759 bit ago, I think one of the reasons you might 120 00:06:56,759 --> 00:06:58,959 want to pick Childchilla if you're going to orchestrate a 121 00:06:58,959 --> 00:07:01,759 mass kidnapping. Is it does seem like a place where 122 00:07:01,759 --> 00:07:04,759 you can wait and wait until a bus gets to 123 00:07:04,759 --> 00:07:07,000 the middle of the road and you can hijack a bus. 124 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,720 I don't see that happening necessarily in a big city. 125 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,959 It seems like you would have plenty of opportunity to 126 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,399 do so if you're in the middle of nowhere. 127 00:07:16,759 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 2: I'd love to figure out how they ended up choosing 128 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,319 this place, But that's the only logical reason I can 129 00:07:23,319 --> 00:07:27,600 come up with is yours, which is it's isolated enough 130 00:07:27,639 --> 00:07:30,319 that you could get away with this, and the law 131 00:07:30,439 --> 00:07:34,399 enforcement presence would be very light, so that it would 132 00:07:34,439 --> 00:07:39,639 facilitate something as outrageous as trying to kidnap a bus 133 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:41,800 full of school kids on the way home from a 134 00:07:41,839 --> 00:07:42,399 field trip. 135 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 3: A lot of the information for today's episode comes from 136 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:52,959 the excellent CNN documentary film Sheelchilla, which involves a minute 137 00:07:52,959 --> 00:07:57,240 by minute recounting of the mass kidnapping and also offers 138 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,639 survivor testimony from a number of people who did survive 139 00:08:01,759 --> 00:08:05,439 this attempt. We will offer a link to that in 140 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:08,639 our show notes, But if you were interested in this case, 141 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,480 after we're done talking about it, I cannot recommend this 142 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,759 documentary enough. It is really excellent and it gives you 143 00:08:16,879 --> 00:08:19,800 a ton of really great information out there. So I 144 00:08:19,879 --> 00:08:24,600 highly recommend CNN Chowchilla and you can find it on 145 00:08:24,879 --> 00:08:28,839 I Believe, HBO, Max or just Max now. In interviews 146 00:08:28,879 --> 00:08:33,399 conducted for the CNN documentary film Cholchilla, survivor Larry Park, 147 00:08:33,639 --> 00:08:36,559 who was six years old at the time of the kidnapping, 148 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,919 stated of the kidnappers where their eyes were it almost 149 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,320 looked hollow. It was like looking at death. The three 150 00:08:44,399 --> 00:08:48,679 kidnappers pulled the bus over into Brenda Slough. It's a 151 00:08:48,799 --> 00:08:51,840 dry river bed which was a branch of the Childchilla 152 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,039 River at that time of year. The sleugh was surrounded 153 00:08:55,039 --> 00:08:59,200 by tall brush and bamboo, and that pretty effectively hid 154 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:03,720 the bus from view. The kidnappers then forced the twenty 155 00:09:03,799 --> 00:09:08,360 six kids and the bus driver into a second white van. 156 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:12,519 The vans. This is really creepy. You'd mentioned you found 157 00:09:12,519 --> 00:09:17,960 this creepy too, Bill. The vans were converted prison transport vans, 158 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,759 so they had blacked out windows. The kidnappers had filled 159 00:09:22,759 --> 00:09:26,759 them in with soundproof wood paneling, so that the kids 160 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,159 not only couldn't be seen, but also could not be 161 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,799 heard as they were traveling to their next location. That 162 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:35,240 creeped me out so badly. 163 00:09:35,919 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 2: And this is where you just start to get your 164 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:43,440 first glimpse of just how uncaring these three offenders are 165 00:09:43,879 --> 00:09:48,159 and how much indifference and even cruelty directed towards these 166 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,240 twenty six kids and their bus driver. And this is 167 00:09:51,279 --> 00:09:53,879 where it starts. 168 00:09:52,879 --> 00:09:57,279 Speaker 3: To disorient and frighten their passengers. The kidnappers drove the 169 00:09:57,399 --> 00:10:02,240 vans around and around for eleven one solid hours before 170 00:10:02,279 --> 00:10:06,960 they eventually stopped at the California Rock and Gravel Quarry 171 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,399 in Livermore, California, which was one hundred and ten miles 172 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,720 from their previous location. Bill, you're telling me off camera 173 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,799 that you were familiar with Livermore as well. What's in 174 00:10:18,879 --> 00:10:20,679 Livermore other than the quarry. 175 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 2: What's interesting is they drive the one hundred and ten miles, 176 00:10:24,279 --> 00:10:27,200 which should have only taken them two hours. So obviously 177 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,600 they're driving around for eleven hours to terrify and confuse 178 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:36,000 these kids. Livermore gets you much closer to the coast 179 00:10:36,039 --> 00:10:41,000 and a much more populated and affluent area of California, 180 00:10:41,279 --> 00:10:44,919 so very different. And this is where the three offenders 181 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,519 are from from that area. It occurred to me when 182 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,600 we were going through the details of the plot that 183 00:10:51,799 --> 00:10:56,279 in a way, the three kidnappers there's a major tell 184 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:00,440 in all of this because they took the kid and 185 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:05,360 the driver basically to the area of California they were from. 186 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:10,080 The thing about Chowchilla is it's not a terribly affluent 187 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,679 area here. The kids are being grabbed up by these 188 00:11:14,759 --> 00:11:18,360 three dirt balls in an effort to receive millions of 189 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,480 dollars in ransom funds. The whole thing just seems so odd, 190 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,919 like why are you going to this teeny tiny agricultural 191 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,279 town one hundred and ten miles away. The whole thing 192 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,840 seems just so lame, And of course you start to 193 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,519 see more and more of that as the story unfolds. 194 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, absolutely, it's if you're going to kidnap a 195 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,399 busload of kids, why not do it in your own community. 196 00:11:42,799 --> 00:11:45,879 If it's because they wanted no connection to their own community, 197 00:11:45,919 --> 00:11:50,120 they undermind themselves in that way. When police later revealed 198 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,879 that the father of kidnapper Frederick Newhallwood's the fourth owned 199 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:59,480 the California Rock and Gravel Quarry where the kidnappers took 200 00:11:59,519 --> 00:12:04,399 their victims. Frederick Newhallwood's the fourth one of three kidnappers, 201 00:12:04,759 --> 00:12:08,840 had unlimited access to this rock quarry. He had keys 202 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,720 to all of the gates, and he had unrestricted use 203 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,720 of all of the facilities, which is largely what allowed 204 00:12:16,799 --> 00:12:20,519 him to conduct to this kidnap for ransom plot. I 205 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:24,480 don't think that if you don't have access to family 206 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,559 funds and unlimited resources, that you're going to be able 207 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:29,919 to come up with and then enact a plot of 208 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:31,679 this intricacy. No. 209 00:12:31,879 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 2: And one of the things that's most disturbing to me 210 00:12:34,919 --> 00:12:40,200 about this case is that these three kidnappers, Frederick Newhall 211 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:45,000 Woods and his two accomplices, Richard and James Schoenfeld, two brothers, 212 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,360 they're all in their early twenties. Woods is twenty four, 213 00:12:49,039 --> 00:12:52,919 Richard and James Schoenfelder twenty two and twenty four. The 214 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,759 weird thing is they all come from serious money. They 215 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,279 don't need to do this. They don't need to kidnap 216 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,559 a busload of kids and demand five million dollars, which 217 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,480 would be about twenty seven million dollars in twenty twenty 218 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,799 four spending. None of this is necessary. As I was 219 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,639 saying to you when we were preparing for this, sometimes 220 00:13:14,759 --> 00:13:17,720 you'll see people that are involved in robberies or kidnappings, 221 00:13:17,919 --> 00:13:21,679 even some pretty Hanna's crimes. They're driven by desperation. I'm 222 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,480 not excusing what they've done in any way, shape or form, 223 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,759 but these are three poor, little rich kids who've watched 224 00:13:27,799 --> 00:13:30,960 a movie and become inspired by it and then are 225 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:35,840 sick enough and malevolent enough to go out and terrorize 226 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,440 twenty six kids and a school bus driver. 227 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:40,879 Speaker 3: And we're going to get to that movie connection in 228 00:13:40,919 --> 00:13:43,480 a couple of minutes. That one is a doozy, for sure. 229 00:13:44,039 --> 00:13:47,799 All three kidnappers transferred the children and the driver from 230 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:52,720 the converted prison vans down a ladder, through a hatch, 231 00:13:53,039 --> 00:13:56,000 and then into a large moving van which had been 232 00:13:56,120 --> 00:14:01,200 buried twelve feet underground and turned into a lated bunker. 233 00:14:01,879 --> 00:14:06,960 The kidnappers had equipped the moving van with fans, mattresses, bread, 234 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,080 peanut butter, and water, and even homemade pit toilets that 235 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,039 were dug into the wheel wells of the van. 236 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 2: There's something about this that just sent chills down my spine. 237 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:22,720 They are climbing into something which is roughly twenty six 238 00:14:22,759 --> 00:14:27,279 feet by eight feet. Several of the survivors described it 239 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,279 as feeling like you were climbing down into a grave. 240 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,639 Speaker 3: It's chilling. In the ChIL Chilla documentary, one of the 241 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,519 kids is describing freezing at the top of the ladder 242 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,000 and being too afraid to climb down the hole, and 243 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,120 the bus driver, not wanting anybody to be harmed by 244 00:14:46,159 --> 00:14:49,320 the kidnappers, just put his hand around the little boy's 245 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,480 ankle and said, come on, I've got you. Come on. 246 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,360 It's safer down here with us than it is with 247 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,320 them up there. I can't even imagine what that must 248 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,759 have been like for these kids to be essentially knowing 249 00:15:01,799 --> 00:15:05,039 that they're being lowered into a grave. It's really just 250 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,759 absolutely chilling. As each child descended down into the hole, 251 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,360 the kidnappers printed their name and age on a hamburger 252 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:15,600 rapper from Jack in the Box in order to demand 253 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:19,519 ransom for the children by name. That sort of strikes 254 00:15:19,519 --> 00:15:21,879 me as you didn't have anything better than a burger wrapper. 255 00:15:22,159 --> 00:15:24,639 I'm wondering if they hadn't realized that you were probably 256 00:15:24,679 --> 00:15:27,120 going to need to give either proof of life or 257 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,519 something like that. It feels like, what do you have 258 00:15:29,559 --> 00:15:30,960 to write on? Oh, I don't know, there's a burger 259 00:15:31,039 --> 00:15:34,000 rapper over here? Like that? Feels like they hadn't accounted 260 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:34,240 for that. 261 00:15:34,519 --> 00:15:38,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, the level of organization is sometimes pretty appalling. I 262 00:15:38,679 --> 00:15:44,279 think to myself, clipboard, piece of paper, Yeah, no, wasn't 263 00:15:44,279 --> 00:15:47,519 on your list of things to get to plan this kidnapping. 264 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 3: And if you look at it in some ways, like 265 00:15:50,559 --> 00:15:54,080 they made that little bunker of theirs, that little hell 266 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,320 hole bunker, they did put a lot of thought into that. 267 00:15:57,399 --> 00:15:59,919 They put enough thought into it to put some food down. 268 00:15:59,919 --> 00:16:04,039 They're obviously not enough. They dug a toilet, They were 269 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,840 planning enough to keep them down there to give a 270 00:16:07,919 --> 00:16:11,279 ransom demand. So they're very organized in that way. But 271 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,519 then at the same time, you don't have a piece 272 00:16:13,559 --> 00:16:16,399 of paper, you don't have a ready huge tonsilely it 273 00:16:16,559 --> 00:16:20,000 definitely feels We were mentioning our friend Jim Clemente off 274 00:16:20,039 --> 00:16:23,080 Air a couple of minutes ago. He talks about mixed 275 00:16:23,159 --> 00:16:28,600 organization mixed offenders, where you're organized and disorganized in some extent, 276 00:16:28,639 --> 00:16:30,720 and it feels like that's very much true here. 277 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 2: If you think about the three offenders, and Woods in particular, 278 00:16:35,039 --> 00:16:38,279 whose father owned the gravel pit, they probably would have 279 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,759 had access to heavy equipment because they literally carried this 280 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,720 moving van under twelve feet of dirt and rock. So 281 00:16:45,919 --> 00:16:49,720 a significant amount of work went into creating this tomb, 282 00:16:49,759 --> 00:16:53,200 if you will, and yet, as we'll see, they failed 283 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:54,720 on so many other levels. 284 00:16:55,600 --> 00:17:00,759 Speaker 3: Because we're committed to honoring survivors of any crime, will 285 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,399 go ahead and give you the names of all of 286 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:08,200 the people who ultimately went into the ground, but spoiler alert, 287 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,480 did come back up again, all of them. You'll notice 288 00:17:11,519 --> 00:17:13,839 as we give these names that there are several different 289 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,400 sets of siblings. Remember this was a school field trip 290 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,759 or summer school field trip, and so you have families 291 00:17:20,799 --> 00:17:23,160 that are on the bus. So the people who were 292 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:26,599 on the bus at the time of the hijacking was 293 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:29,920 Frank Edward ed Ray, the bus driver, aged fifty five, 294 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:35,279 The Artery sisters Lisa and Monica, Lisa Barletta, the Brown 295 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:40,400 siblings Jeff and Jennifer, The Correjos sisters Irene, Julie, Linda 296 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:46,079 and Stella, Darla Daniels, Johnny Esterbrook, the Gonzales brothers Andras 297 00:17:46,079 --> 00:17:52,599 and Robert, Jody Uffington, Cheryl Hinsley, Mike Marshall, Jody Methini, 298 00:17:53,079 --> 00:17:57,720 the park siblings Andrea and Larry, Barbara Parker, the Reynolds, 299 00:17:57,759 --> 00:18:02,759 sisters Judy and Rebecca, and sisters Angela and Michelle, Cindy 300 00:18:02,839 --> 00:18:06,440 van Hoff, and Laura Yazzi. Once the children and the 301 00:18:06,519 --> 00:18:09,720 driver were all down that hatch, the kidnappers closed it. 302 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,200 They put a heavy piece of sheet metal and then 303 00:18:13,279 --> 00:18:17,759 two one hundred pounds industrial batteries on top of the 304 00:18:17,759 --> 00:18:21,039 sheet metal. They then filled in the rest of the 305 00:18:21,079 --> 00:18:25,240 hole with dirt, and then they left, ostensibly to make 306 00:18:25,319 --> 00:18:27,000 that ransom phone call. 307 00:18:27,839 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 2: Just chilling. This whole thing is so creepy and terrifying 308 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:36,000 and uncaring. To put kids ranging in age from five 309 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,759 to fourteen into a hole and place these heavy objects 310 00:18:40,759 --> 00:18:43,440 on top of them and then rock and dirt and leave. 311 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:45,440 It makes me insane. 312 00:18:46,039 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I cannot even imagine the amount of fear that 313 00:18:50,039 --> 00:18:52,559 was going through all of their minds as they are 314 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,759 hearing the clang of the metal, even more from the 315 00:18:55,759 --> 00:18:58,599 batteries and than just all of that dirt. Before we 316 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,480 get to the miraculous escape from the bunker that was 317 00:19:01,599 --> 00:19:04,799 orchestrated chiefly by driver Ed Ray and fourteen year old 318 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:09,240 Mike Marshall, let's take a minute and turn to the masterminds, 319 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,119 and I guess I should probably say that with quotation 320 00:19:11,279 --> 00:19:13,920 marks around it, because really, ultimately, in the end they 321 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,640 did not get away with this. Let's turn to the 322 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,720 masterminds air quotes behind the largest mass kidnapping and American history. 323 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,519 The three kidnappers were all young, as we've stated, they 324 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,960 ranged in age from twenty two to twenty four, and 325 00:19:28,039 --> 00:19:34,359 they all came from wealthy California families. Frederick Newhallwood's fourth 326 00:19:34,599 --> 00:19:38,119 twenty four and brothers Richard and James Schoenfald two and 327 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,519 twenty four had actually planned this crime out for more 328 00:19:41,599 --> 00:19:44,599 than a year, with the end goal of demanding a 329 00:19:44,759 --> 00:19:48,799 five million dollar ransom from the State Board of Education 330 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,039 for the return of the students and the bus driver. 331 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,920 As Bill has mentioned, if you come from family wealth, 332 00:19:56,039 --> 00:19:59,319 why do you need to orchestrate a kidnapp for ransom scheme? 333 00:20:00,079 --> 00:20:02,559 Sort of courses that had they had a series of 334 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,440 debts that they needed. 335 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 2: To pay Offish. 336 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, Bill, I know you've got a little bit more 337 00:20:09,759 --> 00:20:12,799 information on those three kidnappers. So can you fill us 338 00:20:12,839 --> 00:20:15,680 in a little bit about New Hallwoods and the show 339 00:20:15,759 --> 00:20:17,599 and brothers please, show and fell brothers. 340 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,519 Speaker 2: So, the three friends had planned this for over a year. 341 00:20:22,559 --> 00:20:26,359 As you'd said, they were into a lot of not 342 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:31,079 very good stuff. Drugs are not mentioned in the articles 343 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,759 that we've read, but I have a feeling that's part 344 00:20:33,799 --> 00:20:36,039 of the mix here. But they were involved in a 345 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:41,119 number of unsavory activities, including auto theft. The three of 346 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,920 them had been up on charges for auto theft. Interestingly, 347 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,440 as soon as the local law enforcement agencies and the 348 00:20:50,519 --> 00:20:54,759 FBI began looking into the case, they realized that the 349 00:20:54,920 --> 00:21:00,640 owner of the cory was the father of Frederick Newhall Woods. 350 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,599 The fort his father, Frederick Nickerson Woods, was a pretty 351 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:10,160 prominent businessman. Woods and the two brothers, James and Richard Schoenfeld, 352 00:21:10,319 --> 00:21:15,240 had been on probation for the auto theft bust. Once 353 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:20,519 law enforcement realized who Woods was, they began looking into 354 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:25,960 his family and their significant properties. They owned a beautiful 355 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:32,039 seventy eight acre property in Portola Valley, California. Upon executing 356 00:21:32,079 --> 00:21:35,960 a search warrant there, they found journals, a draft of 357 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,680 a ransom demand, maps, notes, plans, receipts for both the 358 00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:45,400 vans and the trailer, false IDs, one of the guns, 359 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,359 the sowt Off shotgun that was using the kidnapping, and 360 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,519 of course, the legendary Hamburger rapper with the names and 361 00:21:51,559 --> 00:21:55,559 ages of each kidnapped child. They began to put this 362 00:21:55,680 --> 00:22:00,799 together pretty quickly that Woods and these two accomplish were 363 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,880 the masterminds that you were calling them. Yeah, so this 364 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:11,599 kidnapping plot begins to fall apart almost immediately. Warrants are 365 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,400 issued for both Woods and the show Unfeld brothers. The 366 00:22:15,559 --> 00:22:22,200 case comes together fairly quickly. Richard Schoenfeld voluntarily surrendered to 367 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,480 authorities eight days after the kidnapping. Two weeks later, his 368 00:22:26,559 --> 00:22:30,119 brother James was arrested in Menlo Park, California, and then 369 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,119 later that same day, Woods, who's supposed to be overseeing 370 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,240 this whole thing, was arrested in Vancouver, British Columbia by 371 00:22:38,319 --> 00:22:42,920 the Royal Canadian Mounted Police or the Mounties. So James 372 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:48,240 Schoenfeld later states that despite coming from a wealthy families, 373 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,960 both he and Woods were deeply in debt, and he said, quote, 374 00:22:52,039 --> 00:22:55,440 we needed multiple victims to get multiple millions, and we 375 00:22:55,599 --> 00:23:00,319 picked children because children are precious. They actually were trying 376 00:23:00,319 --> 00:23:03,000 to get the State of California to give them the money. 377 00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:05,559 The state would be willing to pay ransom for them, 378 00:23:05,599 --> 00:23:08,599 and they don't fight back, meaning the kids, they're vulnerable 379 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,319 and they will mind. That is, they will do what 380 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:15,039 they're told. As we mentioned, they were seeking five million dollars, 381 00:23:15,079 --> 00:23:18,599 which is about twenty seven million dollars in twenty twenty 382 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:24,720 five currency. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be 383 00:23:24,799 --> 00:23:45,079 right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back 384 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:52,119 here at mindover Murder. These geniuses didn't exactly plan this 385 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:58,519 thing through. By taking the kids to a facility that 386 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,519 was owned by one of the suspect's fathers, they immediately 387 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,519 cast a gigantic law enforcement spotlight on themselves. 388 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 3: Interestingly enough, it would come out later that the three 389 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:19,599 kidnappers were influenced by the nineteen seventy one film Dirty Harry, 390 00:24:20,279 --> 00:24:24,559 directed by Don Siegel and starring the legendary Clint Eastwood 391 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,880 as Harry Callahan, an inspector for the San Francisco Police 392 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:34,000 Department who's hunting a psychopathic sniper and kidnapper named Scorpio. 393 00:24:34,759 --> 00:24:37,599 Toward the end of the movie, Scorpio hijacks a school 394 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,200 bus full of children and holds them for ransom before 395 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,319 crashing the bus into a mound of dirt and fleeing 396 00:24:44,519 --> 00:24:48,319 into a rock quarry. Now I'm a little ashamed that 397 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,119 I haven't seen Dirty Harry because I am a film teacher, 398 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,599 but I have not. It's not exactly my kind of film. 399 00:24:55,039 --> 00:24:56,680 But you've seen it, have you not? 400 00:24:57,319 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 2: I have, and of course several times. I'm sure. Of course. 401 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:04,000 Scorpio is also a reference to how do I want 402 00:25:04,039 --> 00:25:06,960 to put this? Scorpio is an indirect reference to the 403 00:25:07,079 --> 00:25:12,039 Zodiac murders, yes, which took place in northern California, and 404 00:25:14,599 --> 00:25:18,839 the school bus full of children. This is very similar 405 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,200 to the plan that these three morons attempted to execute. 406 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,920 And I'm sure when they watched the movie, probably over 407 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,200 and over again on VHS tape which is available back then, 408 00:25:29,319 --> 00:25:33,559 it occurred to them that they could use the Father's 409 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:38,519 Rock quarry as a place to bury a I keep 410 00:25:38,519 --> 00:25:41,519 coming back to the idea of a tomb moving van 411 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:47,240 that they purchased and then buried, And that's fairly similar 412 00:25:47,279 --> 00:25:50,759 to what happens in the Dirty Harry film. 413 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,079 Speaker 3: As you mentioned, there is this circle of life imitating 414 00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:01,319 art imitating life. The movie Dirty Harrier obviously took some 415 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:06,440 cues from As you mentioned, the notorious still unsolved. No 416 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,720 matter how many people say it's been solved, it's not solved. 417 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:13,839 Zodiac Murders which began in nineteen sixty three in Vallejo, California, 418 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,160 and that of course still had a very feverish hold 419 00:26:17,279 --> 00:26:21,240 on the imaginations of San Franciscans. There were still Zodiac 420 00:26:21,319 --> 00:26:26,880 letters being reported up until nineteen seventy four, so the 421 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,359 kidnappers would definitely have been aware of the Zodiac, both 422 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,359 the devious real life killer who deluded police and also 423 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:38,000 his cinematic counterpart, Scorpio. So, after watching Dirty Harry Woods 424 00:26:38,079 --> 00:26:41,039 and the Schoenfeld Brothers took the idea of hijacking a 425 00:26:41,039 --> 00:26:44,039 bus of school children and used it to plan their 426 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,960 kidnap for ransom scheme that would, they hoped, and with 427 00:26:49,039 --> 00:26:53,240 them five million dollars richer, and and with twenty seven 428 00:26:53,279 --> 00:26:57,359 people buried under a rock quarry and fighting for their lives. 429 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,279 It really is just chilling when you stop to think 430 00:27:01,279 --> 00:27:01,720 about it. 431 00:27:02,799 --> 00:27:05,279 Speaker 2: Some of the things that just seem odd when I 432 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,920 look at how they planned this thing. They were planning 433 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:13,119 to have the state of California drop the five million 434 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:18,400 dollars from the air, and then they were planning on 435 00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:22,519 entering this wilderness area where they wanted the money to 436 00:27:22,559 --> 00:27:25,920 be dropped under cover of darkness, and they would acquire 437 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,680 the money and make their escape. The whole thing just 438 00:27:29,759 --> 00:27:33,880 seems so horrifically planned, and of course they weren't counting 439 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,680 on the kids and the bus driver fighting back and 440 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:39,839 fighting for their lives. 441 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 3: It's interesting, Bill, something that you just said about having 442 00:27:44,319 --> 00:27:47,799 the ransom money dropped out of an airplane into a 443 00:27:47,839 --> 00:27:53,440 wilderness area that has some real similarities to another sort 444 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,480 of hard hitting true crime event from that time period, 445 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,519 and that's the dB Cooper skyjacking, in which a man 446 00:28:00,599 --> 00:28:04,960 calling himself Dan Cooper skyjacked to the Northwest Orient Airlines 447 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:09,279 flight three h five on November twenty fourth, nineteen seventy one. 448 00:28:09,759 --> 00:28:14,000 He then parachuted out of the plane over the Cascades 449 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,319 with a quite a large amount of cash. So that 450 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,839 whole thing about let's have a ransom drop essentially, that 451 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,799 reminded me a lot of D. B. Cooper. It feels 452 00:28:25,839 --> 00:28:29,400 like these guys would have been true crime fans in 453 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:29,880 their day. 454 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, they seemed very influenced by things that had happened 455 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,640 in the previous years. They clearly followed the headlines and 456 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,400 followed these stories. The dB Hooper story, by the way, 457 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,039 which is an interesting case in and of itself. Perhaps 458 00:28:43,079 --> 00:28:46,440 we should discuss it sometime of mind over murder. Yeah, 459 00:28:46,519 --> 00:28:50,240 they found some of the money in the dB Hooper case, 460 00:28:50,279 --> 00:28:52,920 but I don't think they've ever found him. 461 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. No. Interestingly enough, recently in a farm family farm 462 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:03,759 here in nearby North Carolina, someone came across a parachute 463 00:29:03,799 --> 00:29:06,799 that they think very closely matches the rig that D. B. 464 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,839 Cooper used to parachute out of the plane. So there's 465 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:15,079 some indicators, some suspicions that maybe one of the maybe 466 00:29:15,079 --> 00:29:18,519 one of the potential suspects for D. B. Cooper actually 467 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,759 lived in northeast or North Carolina. 468 00:29:22,039 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 2: Why would he bring the parachute all the way back 469 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:26,400 across the country. 470 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 3: I don't know. I have no idea. That's actually I 471 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,079 think it would be fun for us to do D B. Cooper. Honestly, 472 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,079 there's a lot of good stuff there. Honestly, there's been 473 00:29:35,119 --> 00:29:37,839 some great stuff written about it and shot about it. 474 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:39,519 I think that might be fun. We'll think about doing 475 00:29:39,559 --> 00:29:42,599 dB Cooper. You guys would like us to cover dB Cooper? 476 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,279 Sound off in the comments please, So what didn't the 477 00:29:46,359 --> 00:29:50,880 kidnappers actually count on? It was the sheer tenacity of 478 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:55,319 a fourteen year old named Michael Marshall. While the media 479 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,640 of the day largely credited bus driver Ed Ray with 480 00:29:58,799 --> 00:30:02,480 rescuing the students, he was not the only person who 481 00:30:02,519 --> 00:30:06,359 worked to rescue the trapped children, According to that CNN 482 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,200 documentary simply called Sheldchilla, when the ceiling of the moving 483 00:30:10,359 --> 00:30:14,480 van began to cave in, Mike Marshall insisted to Ed 484 00:30:14,599 --> 00:30:17,160 Ray that if they were going to die, they would 485 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,039 do it trying to get out of the van, So 486 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,519 Ray and Marshall and the older children stacked up all 487 00:30:23,559 --> 00:30:27,599 the mattresses underneath the hatch. Ray then raised the hatch 488 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,839 as high as he could until Marshall could wedge a 489 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,519 piece of wood underneath the opening. The two then heaved 490 00:30:34,559 --> 00:30:37,440 the batteries and the sheet metal off and began the 491 00:30:37,599 --> 00:30:40,839 arduous task of digging the dirt and debris out of 492 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:46,960 the way. After sixteen hours of digging, Ed Ray, Mike 493 00:30:47,119 --> 00:30:50,599 Marshall and the other children were out of their would 494 00:30:50,599 --> 00:30:54,640 be mass grave and walking to a very startled guard 495 00:30:54,799 --> 00:30:58,039 at the Rock Quarry security shack and letting them know 496 00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,000 where they had been. 497 00:31:00,039 --> 00:31:02,599 Speaker 2: The Rock Quarry not far from our house here, just 498 00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,559 a few miles away. We pass it on the way 499 00:31:04,559 --> 00:31:08,960 to the grocery store. That's a place where they've carved 500 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,480 a massive opening into the side of a hill, and 501 00:31:12,559 --> 00:31:16,000 it's a granite quarry. It has a very similar feel. 502 00:31:16,119 --> 00:31:20,559 I would imagine it's a great open sandy area and 503 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,440 trucks go in and out of there during the day. 504 00:31:22,599 --> 00:31:25,279 We'll drive by there sometimes in the evening and there's 505 00:31:25,319 --> 00:31:29,240 this one solitary little guard shack with a guy in there, 506 00:31:29,359 --> 00:31:32,640 and you can see the light on. He's obviously providing 507 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,279 security to make sure that nobody goes in there gets hurt. 508 00:31:35,519 --> 00:31:40,200 I imagine this poor guy who was acting as security 509 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,759 at the California Rock Quarry. All of a sudden, he's 510 00:31:42,799 --> 00:31:46,000 got twenty six kids and a school bus driver appearing 511 00:31:46,039 --> 00:31:49,480 in his little guard shack letting him know this incredible story. 512 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,119 Speaker 3: All told, they ended up being missing for about thirty 513 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,680 six hours. The only location nearby with medical facilities was 514 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,920 the Santa Rated Jail. Children and ed Ray were taken 515 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,640 there to be treated by EMT's and by the jail's 516 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,119 medical staff. They were given a meal, they were given water. 517 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,000 They were even giving prison jumpsuits to wear because their 518 00:32:12,039 --> 00:32:15,559 own clothing was stained with dirt and sweat and all 519 00:32:15,599 --> 00:32:19,319 sorts of other yuckiness, and soon the victims were reunited 520 00:32:19,359 --> 00:32:21,720 with their families back in Choldchilla. 521 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 2: One of the things I love about this story is 522 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,920 these three morons fell asleep somehow. I picture them lighting 523 00:32:29,039 --> 00:32:32,640 up too many bones to count, getting completely stoned, and 524 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:37,200 then falling asleep. So while mister Ray and the kids, 525 00:32:37,359 --> 00:32:41,720 particularly Mike Marshall, the oldest boy at age fourteen, were 526 00:32:41,759 --> 00:32:46,799 working so hard to survive, these three idiots are off 527 00:32:47,079 --> 00:32:51,079 falling asleep, taking a nap. The whole thing. I just 528 00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,200 have to laugh at their expense. 529 00:32:53,839 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 3: One of the questions that we had were not entirely 530 00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:59,440 clear on, like where the three kidnappers were during this 531 00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:03,079 time period. We know that they left the quarry. Were 532 00:33:03,079 --> 00:33:06,640 they in some sort of evil mastermind layer like where 533 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,759 we weren't hanging out at a local diner or anything. 534 00:33:08,799 --> 00:33:11,880 I don't think I am very curious where exactly these 535 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:15,839 guys were. Certainly, at some point or another, as you said, Bill, 536 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,559 they ended up falling asleep, and that was largely because 537 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,519 they couldn't get their ransom call through. They were trying 538 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,960 to reach the Chelchilla Police Department to make the ransom call, 539 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,119 and the phone lines at the police department were so 540 00:33:32,519 --> 00:33:36,480 jammed because the victims' families were calling, the media was calling. 541 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,839 Nobody could get through to actually make that ransom demand. 542 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,000 You know, they're figuring they're not going to escape from that. 543 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,480 We put sheet metal and batteries and all sorts of stuff. 544 00:33:47,559 --> 00:33:50,720 It's fine, We'll go take a nap. So they decided 545 00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:53,839 that they were going to call later. They fell asleep, 546 00:33:54,079 --> 00:33:56,599 and then they woke up a couple hours later to 547 00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,440 all of these news reports that their victims had freed 548 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,440 themselves and gotten out of the rock quarry. 549 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:07,559 Speaker 2: Nice planning. They can't even get their ransom call through, 550 00:34:07,759 --> 00:34:11,440 and they don't have a backup plan. There's no note, 551 00:34:11,559 --> 00:34:14,760 there's nothing. They just thought they were going to call 552 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,920 the police and say we've got these kids and we 553 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,960 want five million dollars or you'll never see them alive again. 554 00:34:21,559 --> 00:34:25,760 There's something about the sheer incompetence of these kidnappers that 555 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:27,719 I find incredibly amusing. 556 00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:30,639 Speaker 3: As you mentioned earlier, it did not take long for 557 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,639 this plan to start to fall apart, and before long 558 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,719 the investigation was on, which led them to Fred Woods 559 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:43,039 and then to James and Robert Schoenfeld. You had mentioned earlier, 560 00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:48,599 the vast array of crime related material that was found 561 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:53,119 at the Woods family property, journals, the draft of the 562 00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:57,199 ransom note, maps, notes, plans, receipts, fake id's guns, like 563 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,039 you name it. They found storage facilities, he had so 564 00:35:01,119 --> 00:35:04,000 many things like These guys left a trail that was 565 00:35:04,039 --> 00:35:06,760 a mile wide, and so they really at that point 566 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,199 had no choice, and the youngest of the kidnappers, Richard Schoenfeld, 567 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,320 voluntarily turned himself in, as you said. Two weeks later 568 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,840 his brother was arrested, and then fred Woods was arrested 569 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,920 as well. I'm curious whether they split up by choice 570 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,639 or by chance. Fred Woods made it all the way 571 00:35:26,679 --> 00:35:30,760 to Vancouver. I'm curious if he was like, you guys, 572 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,760 take care of it, see you later, or if the 573 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,960 other two were going to join him. I'm curious about 574 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,039 the sequence of events that led them to split up. 575 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, I am too, and some of the reporting. We're 576 00:35:41,679 --> 00:35:44,039 going to have to keep digging on this case because 577 00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:47,039 we both ended up with a lot of questions about 578 00:35:47,159 --> 00:35:50,119 their level of preparedness, which I don't think was high. 579 00:35:50,199 --> 00:35:54,239 And something tells me they were half asking this entire thing, 580 00:35:54,559 --> 00:35:57,639 thinking they were so much smarter than authorities. When the 581 00:35:57,679 --> 00:36:00,719 truth is law enforcement put this thing together pretty quickly. 582 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,519 As you mentioned, the school bus driver and the kids 583 00:36:04,679 --> 00:36:06,719 actually rescued themselves. 584 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,599 Speaker 3: So when the kidnappers ultimately did go to trial, they 585 00:36:10,639 --> 00:36:14,079 all decided to plead guilty. They pled guilty to kidnap 586 00:36:14,119 --> 00:36:18,039 for ransom, they pled guilty to robbery. The one count 587 00:36:18,079 --> 00:36:24,000 they refused to plead guilty on was infliction of bodily injury. 588 00:36:24,039 --> 00:36:26,760 They claimed that the cuts and bruises that the kids 589 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,199 endured did not meet the standard for bodily injury under 590 00:36:30,199 --> 00:36:32,679 the law, or rather, I'm sure their lawyers said that. 591 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,519 I don't think they would have been able to figure. 592 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 2: That out rocket scientists, they're not. 593 00:36:38,679 --> 00:36:42,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, they were really insistent on that point, in particular 594 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:47,119 because a conviction on the bodily injury charge means a 595 00:36:47,199 --> 00:36:52,000 sentence of life without the possibility of parole. If you're 596 00:36:52,039 --> 00:36:55,440 found not guilty on the bodily injury charge, then you 597 00:36:55,599 --> 00:36:59,559 have life with the possibility of parole. So for them 598 00:36:59,599 --> 00:37:03,039 that one point, the bodily injury charge was the difference 599 00:37:03,079 --> 00:37:06,199 between can I get paroled at some point or can 600 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,840 I not. The legal drama continued. The kidnappers were convicted 601 00:37:11,079 --> 00:37:14,719 on the bodily injury charge. They were given life sentences 602 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,800 without the possibility of parole. Because all three of these kidnappers, remember, 603 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,280 came from a rich family. They all three appealed their 604 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:25,159 sentences in the early eighties, and eventually an appellate court 605 00:37:25,599 --> 00:37:31,800 overturned the convictions on the bodily injury charge, which blew 606 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,559 my mind because obviously they're not taken into account psychological trauma. 607 00:37:36,679 --> 00:37:38,920 And we're going to talk about in a separate episode 608 00:37:39,119 --> 00:37:42,360 the impact that this kidnapping had on all of these victims, 609 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:47,119 and it was staggering. They clearly did not think that trauma, 610 00:37:47,159 --> 00:37:50,599 PTSD or anything else factored into the idea of bodily 611 00:37:50,639 --> 00:37:52,920 injury and I hate that infuriates me. 612 00:37:53,639 --> 00:37:58,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, me too. And when we got into the details 613 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,119 of the impact that the horrific crime had on these 614 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:07,320 young kids, just the amount of terror that was inflicted 615 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:12,000 upon them. In many examples, they suffered from this trauma 616 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,559 for the rest of their lives. To this day. These 617 00:38:14,599 --> 00:38:20,800 people are still struggling with PTSD nightmares, many of them 618 00:38:21,199 --> 00:38:27,840 have had difficulty with drugs, alcohol, relationships, fear of the dark, 619 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,039 which is not a joke. If you're struggling to sleep 620 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,280 every single night for the rest of your lives. And 621 00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,440 they talked about, even as adults, them refusing to go 622 00:38:38,519 --> 00:38:42,800 down into the basement or any kind of confined space. 623 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,320 And you can see if you were six years old, 624 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,760 you're old enough to remember what it was like being 625 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:54,239 kidnapped at gunpoint and forced to go into a hole 626 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,679 in the ground and then dig your way out. You 627 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,760 can see how this would have lasting gative impact. 628 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 3: And this is very much occurring during a time when 629 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,960 there was no standard of treatment for child psychology. There 630 00:39:09,039 --> 00:39:13,960 just wasn't anything the closest to psychological treatment that any 631 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,079 of these kids got. The survivors and the documentary were 632 00:39:17,119 --> 00:39:20,440 talking about a trip to Disneyland that like a local 633 00:39:20,519 --> 00:39:24,840 Lions club managed to pay for. Sure, you dug your 634 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,199 way out of a potential mass grave, you're scared of 635 00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:30,679 the dark, you're traumatized, but Disneyland is somehow going to 636 00:39:30,679 --> 00:39:33,960 make it all better. That's the way that people thought 637 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,840 back then. We didn't have an idea about how to 638 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,360 treat these sort of disorders with children, and so one 639 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,880 thing we want to get into is the fact that 640 00:39:43,079 --> 00:39:45,519 the justice system did not have a good understanding of 641 00:39:45,559 --> 00:39:49,880 how to deal with child victims. That is reflected in 642 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,000 the fact that by August of twenty twenty two, all 643 00:39:54,039 --> 00:39:58,519 three kidnappers were out on parole, which should never ever 644 00:39:58,599 --> 00:40:02,000 have happened. I do not believe there are any circumstances 645 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,679 under which they should be allowed out. By August of 646 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:06,880 twenty twenty two, all three of the kidnappers were out 647 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:10,760 on parole. Richard Schoenfeld was released first in twenty twelve. 648 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,079 He was then followed by his brother James, who was 649 00:40:14,159 --> 00:40:17,960 paroled in twenty fifteen. Frederick new Hollwoods, the fourth, was 650 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,639 denied parole seventeen times before he was finally released in 651 00:40:22,679 --> 00:40:26,119 twenty twenty two. But the release was against the wishes 652 00:40:26,199 --> 00:40:30,559 of California Governor Gavin Newsom, who strongly urged the Parole 653 00:40:30,599 --> 00:40:35,159 Board to reconsider letting him leave jail on this heinous crime. 654 00:40:35,599 --> 00:40:39,039 Speaker 2: Now, remember, Governor Newsom would have had no ability to 655 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:43,159 keep Woods or any of the offenders in jail. All 656 00:40:43,199 --> 00:40:46,639 he could do was urge the Parole Board to do 657 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,679 the right thing. Ultimately, they decided to let all three 658 00:40:50,679 --> 00:40:53,760 of them out. They were fifty seven, sixty three, and 659 00:40:54,039 --> 00:40:56,440 seventy at the time they got out of jail, so 660 00:40:56,519 --> 00:40:59,599 they served long sentences, but I was still shocked that 661 00:40:59,639 --> 00:41:01,719 they were ultimately allowed to go free. 662 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. Woods stated to the parole board, this is only 663 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,199 a partial statement. And forgive me while I roll my 664 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,719 eyes while I say it. Woods said, I have empathy 665 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,480 for the victims, which I didn't have then. I've had 666 00:41:15,519 --> 00:41:19,639 a character change since then I was twenty four years old. 667 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,039 Now I fully understand the terror and trauma that I caused. 668 00:41:24,119 --> 00:41:27,280 I fully take responsibility for this heinous act. 669 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 2: I'll share you in the eye roll and then let 670 00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:35,519 me just add something too. Woods wasn't exactly a model prisoner. 671 00:41:35,679 --> 00:41:42,719 He was charged with running several businesses illegally from prison yep, 672 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,840 including a gold mine and a car dealership see what 673 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:52,440 money will buy? Yeah, And amazingly, although there was a 674 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:58,679 settlement with the victims, he still ultimately received a fortune 675 00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:03,920 worth at least one hundred million dollars from his two families, 676 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:05,559 the new Halls and the Woods. 677 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:10,119 Speaker 3: And that's after still continuing to make money inside of prison. 678 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,800 The man married three times during his incarceration. He even 679 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,920 bought a mansion while he was behind bars. I find 680 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:24,119 that just beyond the pale. How could they have let 681 00:42:24,159 --> 00:42:24,679 that happen. 682 00:42:25,599 --> 00:42:29,320 Speaker 2: And another conversation for another day is at some point 683 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,599 I'd love to talk to an expert as to who 684 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,400 are these women that want to marry dirt balls who 685 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:37,239 are in prison? 686 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:40,639 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I think I think that is a whole 687 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,800 separate episode. I that's a great idea. If you'd like 688 00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,199 to see us do that, sound off in the comments. 689 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:51,239 Speaker 2: Please, Why do women want to marry? The Menendez brothers 690 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:55,239 are another great example, multiple marriages while they were in prison. 691 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:56,199 What for? 692 00:42:57,159 --> 00:43:00,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, we have so much more to talk about in 693 00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:05,480 this case. We will be hosting our favorite prosecutor, Matt Murphy, 694 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,760 who is going to talk to us about the parole system, 695 00:43:09,199 --> 00:43:13,760 the restorative justice system, answer some of our questions about 696 00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:18,199 why the sentences that the kidnappers were given were given 697 00:43:18,199 --> 00:43:19,480 the way that it was. We're going to talk about 698 00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,320 the bodily injury charge and everything else. So Matt is 699 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,639 going to join us next week, and we have a 700 00:43:25,679 --> 00:43:28,519 lot more to talk about in this case. We hope 701 00:43:28,559 --> 00:43:31,599 that you've enjoyed this first deep dive into the child 702 00:43:31,679 --> 00:43:34,760 Chilla mass kidnapping, and we do highly encourage you to 703 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:39,639 watch the excellent CNN documentary film Cholchilla you should be 704 00:43:39,679 --> 00:43:43,199 able to find that on Max. That is going to 705 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,840 wrap it up for this episode of mind Over Murder. 706 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,400 Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 707 00:43:59,039 --> 00:44:02,559 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 708 00:44:02,639 --> 00:44:04,079 Another Dog Productions. 709 00:44:04,639 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 710 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,760 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 711 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 712 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,039 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 713 00:44:18,679 --> 00:44:21,840 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 714 00:44:22,039 --> 00:44:24,639 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 715 00:44:24,679 --> 00:44:26,519 Murders on Facebook. 716 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,320 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 717 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:30,960 Bill Thomas five six. 718 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,559 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.