WEBVTT 1 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:40.840 Welcome to mid Rats with sal from Commander Salamander, an 2 00:00:40.880 --> 00:00:44.159 Eagle one from Eagle Speak at seer Shure your home 3 00:00:44.200 --> 00:00:47.520 for a discussion of national security issues and all things maritime. 4 00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:51.119 And good day everybody. Thank you for joining us for 5 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:54.479 another edition of mid Rats. I'd like to make a 6 00:00:55.079 --> 00:00:57.479 do my little altar call as usual. If you are 7 00:00:57.560 --> 00:01:01.000 with us live. If you go ahead, and you should 8 00:01:01.000 --> 00:01:03.200 be on the riverside page, you'll see the chat room. 9 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:06.319 If you'd like to join in, just chop it jump 10 00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:08.040 right in the chat room. And if you have some 11 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:10.840 comments you would like to share or some questions you 12 00:01:10.840 --> 00:01:13.400 would like to have addressed to our guests during the 13 00:01:13.400 --> 00:01:15.799 course of the hour, that's a great place to do 14 00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:17.680 it because we'll be monitoring during the course of the 15 00:01:17.719 --> 00:01:20.480 show and we're more happy to bring your good ideas 16 00:01:20.519 --> 00:01:24.680 into the conversation. Also, if you don't already, if you 17 00:01:24.719 --> 00:01:30.120 go over to iTunes, Spotify, Spreaker, wherever you aggregate your podcasts, 18 00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:33.879 go ahead and find mid Rats and subscribe. And that way, 19 00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:36.359 if you can't join us live next week or some 20 00:01:36.480 --> 00:01:39.040 other time, mid Rats will always be ready for you 21 00:01:39.159 --> 00:01:41.959 during your commute or when you have an extra moment 22 00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:45.079 lying around. So hey, let's get on with today's show. 23 00:01:45.599 --> 00:01:47.439 What we're going to look at is we're going to 24 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:50.040 look at the People's Republic of China and what they've 25 00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:54.079 been doing grow their influence in the Pacific island nations, 26 00:01:54.760 --> 00:01:56.840 many of which, when you actually look at their names, 27 00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:01.040 will sound very familiar to anybody who has studied or 28 00:02:01.760 --> 00:02:04.079 World War two, or even watched a few of the movies. 29 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:07.200 The islands are the same, the geography is the same, 30 00:02:07.760 --> 00:02:11.199 and their importance is just the same, and especially in 31 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:14.280 case of any type of additional conflict, and they may 32 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:17.479 take place west of the International date Line. And we're 33 00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:20.159 really looking forward for the next hour because our guest 34 00:02:20.199 --> 00:02:23.479 is the perfect person to talk about this, Cleo Pascal. 35 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:27.599 She is a non resident Senior Fellow focusing on Indo 36 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:32.280 Pacific region at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies. Cleo, 37 00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:33.120 welcome to Midwest. 38 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:37.080 Thank you very much. This is very exciting and as 39 00:02:37.159 --> 00:02:39.039 I think I mentioned, a little bit daunting. It's like 40 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:40.919 sort of getting to go on the Johnny Carson Show 41 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:44.120 in the seventies or something. It's for for our group 42 00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:46.280 of people, this is it doesn't get much better than this, 43 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:47.439 So thank you very much. 44 00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:49.879 Well, thank you will we will try to make sure 45 00:02:49.919 --> 00:02:53.080 our questions match your your enthusiasm for being on board. 46 00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:56.919 We're just really happy to have you here and for 47 00:02:57.039 --> 00:03:00.280 our guest, I think let's let's set the scene when 48 00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:03.919 we talk about the Pacific Island nations during the course 49 00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:06.520 of the next hour. What are the Pacific island nations 50 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:08.400 that people should think of when they hear that phrase. 51 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:14.479 Great, so this is essential starting point. If you draw 52 00:03:14.759 --> 00:03:17.000 it'd say it usually you'd say a triangle between like 53 00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:22.360 Hawaii and Japan and Australia. Everything in the middle of 54 00:03:22.360 --> 00:03:25.360 that would probably qualify as a Pacific island. You can 55 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:28.759 actually make it a square and go down to kind 56 00:03:28.759 --> 00:03:31.479 of offshore from Chile, and then you can also include 57 00:03:31.479 --> 00:03:34.680 some of the like for example, French Polynesia that whole area. 58 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:39.560 So it's by some calculations about a fifth of the planet. 59 00:03:39.759 --> 00:03:43.360 The islands themselves, they vary in the way that they're 60 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:48.319 politically structured, from completely independent countries to essentially colonies, for 61 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:51.080 example in the case of the French ones, to free 62 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:54.439 association with the US, which we can talk about, or 63 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:56.879 part of the realm of New Zealand, like the Cook 64 00:03:56.879 --> 00:03:59.520 Islands is where they say they're independent, but they carry 65 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:04.439 New Zealand passports. So there's a whole range of political identities. 66 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:12.319 But from a national security strategic perspective, the thing to understand, 67 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:14.479 and it's very obvious if you look at a map. 68 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:17.519 We've been we've been having a problem understanding I think 69 00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:19.839 how important the region is because we've been we look 70 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:22.759 on our school walls, for example. We grew up with 71 00:04:22.839 --> 00:04:26.720 these twentieth century Atlantic centered maps. But if you have 72 00:04:26.839 --> 00:04:30.160 a Pacific centered map, you know the Indo Pacific is 73 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:33.000 going to be to the twenty first century what the 74 00:04:33.000 --> 00:04:35.600 Atlantic was to the twentieth century. It's where the trade is, 75 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:38.560 it's where the strategic contest is, all that stuff. You know, 76 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:42.519 you've got this huge buffer zone between Asia and the Americas, 77 00:04:42.600 --> 00:04:46.639 and you if you don't control it, or if somebody 78 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:48.759 else who is hostile to you controls it, you have 79 00:04:48.839 --> 00:04:52.720 a problem. So I'd say that when you're thinking about 80 00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:57.199 it from a strategic perspective, you might tend to think 81 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:00.160 because we've seen in the news more recently violence like 82 00:05:00.199 --> 00:05:03.920 Solomon Islands might be important side of the Battle of Guadalcanal, 83 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:07.480 for example, but they're actually down below the equator. They're 84 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:11.199 off the coast of Australia. They are obviously important, but 85 00:05:11.319 --> 00:05:15.560 from a US strategic perspective, the islands that are critical, 86 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:18.319 the Pacific islands that are critical are the ones that 87 00:05:18.360 --> 00:05:22.439 are north of the equator, that are in the corridor 88 00:05:22.639 --> 00:05:27.959 between Hawaii and Guam. And of course Guam is an 89 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:31.879 American is the United States of America, and you've got 90 00:05:31.879 --> 00:05:35.800 this sort of broad quarrider between them. That's about three 91 00:05:35.879 --> 00:05:39.759 thousands about three thousand miles from Hawaii to Guam. And 92 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:43.720 in that zone you have three independent countries. You have 93 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:46.399 sort of I'm going up a little bit south of 94 00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:49.959 Guam as well a little south and west Palau, Federay 95 00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:53.040 States and Micronesia and Marshall Islands. As you mentioned Marshall, 96 00:05:53.160 --> 00:05:56.319 these are all we're all battle sites. Marshall Islands was 97 00:05:56.360 --> 00:05:59.199 Battle of Quadlon and it's where the base is today. 98 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:05.160 Federary States, Gronesia's Truck Lagoon, Palalis Pelulu, that zone. They 99 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:10.399 are independent countries, but they've given exclusive defense and security 100 00:06:10.480 --> 00:06:13.120 rights to the United States of America, and that's what 101 00:06:13.240 --> 00:06:18.680 allows the US unrestricted access across the middle of the Pacific, 102 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:21.600 through those Pacific islands to the parts of the US 103 00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:24.600 that are right off the coast of Asia. Guam Kamal 104 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:26.800 with the Northern Marianas come with the Northern Ania is 105 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:29.079 part of the United States of America. It has a 106 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:32.480 maritime border with Japan. So yes, we could talk about 107 00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:36.079 all of the Pacific islands. But if you're looking really 108 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:40.639 at the core of US strategic interests, the place which 109 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:42.839 was that whole zone, that middle zone that I just 110 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:45.839 described was controlled by Japan from nineteen fourteen to nineteen 111 00:06:45.879 --> 00:06:50.439 forty four. That allowed the Asian defense perimeter to be 112 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:54.439 pushed all the way close to Hawaii. It allowed the 113 00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:58.399 bombing of Pearl Harbor. And then after the war, after 114 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:02.639 the the troops died all the way across liberated it. 115 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:05.519 Then this compact was put in place to make sure 116 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:07.920 that the border was pushed all the way to the 117 00:07:07.959 --> 00:07:10.839 west and to be kept off the coast of Asia. 118 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:14.959 So I'd say that that zone, that those three compacts 119 00:07:14.959 --> 00:07:18.639 of free association countries plus Guam plus the Comwealthan and 120 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:22.319 the Marianas both American, are really the core of US 121 00:07:22.360 --> 00:07:23.759 security interests in the region. 122 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:26.879 All right, Well, let's let's talk a little bit about 123 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:30.680 where the rub is with China. In this region. And 124 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:34.439 I think you've covered really well in one of the 125 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:38.319 articles I put up on our chat room uh island 126 00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:46.240 hopping with Chinese characteristics, that the Chinese have a comprehensive 127 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:49.920 national power metric that they use. How does that, how 128 00:07:49.959 --> 00:07:52.639 does that rub up against what the US and our 129 00:07:52.759 --> 00:07:57.720 allies and our territories are facing in in in that 130 00:07:57.959 --> 00:07:58.720 in the region we're. 131 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:05.360 Talking about, right, So this comprehensive National power outlook is 132 00:08:05.600 --> 00:08:09.160 relevant obviously for much more than just the Pacific Islands. 133 00:08:09.240 --> 00:08:12.480 It helped me very much understand how the region operates, 134 00:08:12.519 --> 00:08:14.560 and in fact I learned quite a bit about it 135 00:08:15.040 --> 00:08:20.800 from retired coastguard who just who knows it incredibly well, 136 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:25.680 Bernard Morland. And effectively, what the Chinese were doing, I'm 137 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:27.399 not quite sure what they're doing now because it's always 138 00:08:27.399 --> 00:08:29.199 been a little bit opaque, but what they were doing 139 00:08:29.240 --> 00:08:34.799 for a very long time was ranking countries numerically by 140 00:08:34.840 --> 00:08:39.080 their comprehensive national power and the idea is that eventually 141 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:41.519 China will be number one in the world in terms 142 00:08:41.559 --> 00:08:45.879 of comprehensive national power. And the calculations that go into 143 00:08:45.879 --> 00:08:51.039 the metric seem to vary by CCP or PLA, think tank. 144 00:08:51.399 --> 00:08:54.360 But they're much much more broad than what we would include. 145 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:58.600 So we would include things like economic power or military power, 146 00:08:58.679 --> 00:09:02.320 things like that, but they would include even things like, 147 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:04.759 you know, if you have a lithium mind, but a 148 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:08.720 Chinese company is mining that lithium, that that counts towards 149 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:12.159 China's comprehensive national power, not towards years. And they would 150 00:09:12.440 --> 00:09:15.320 and in kind of very overt ways. You know, if 151 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:19.919 they've got bribery material, or if they have economic control, 152 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:22.759 or if they're putting a bri projects in your country, 153 00:09:23.120 --> 00:09:27.240 that limits your conference and national power and increases theirs. 154 00:09:27.399 --> 00:09:32.799 And part of the way that this can manifest is 155 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:37.039 that we think of competition in terms of getting better, 156 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:40.879 but if you have a relative metric, then you can 157 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:42.919 go down, but as long as the other guy goes 158 00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:47.559 down more than you do, you win. So this is 159 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:52.120 what helped me just personally understand how there could be 160 00:09:52.279 --> 00:09:55.840 logic behind If you know you have and for example, 161 00:09:55.879 --> 00:09:58.759 an epidemic running through your country that's making a lot 162 00:09:58.759 --> 00:10:00.679 of your people sick, and you know it's a problem, 163 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:04.000 and so you've stopped internal flights from a place like Wuhan, 164 00:10:04.120 --> 00:10:07.840 for example, you will you could logically keep pushing for 165 00:10:08.039 --> 00:10:11.320 external flights to say, Okay, if we're going to get hit, 166 00:10:11.360 --> 00:10:13.559 then we want everybody else to get hit as well, 167 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:15.759 and we're going to use the buffer time to try 168 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:18.240 to position ourselves in a little bit of a better place. 169 00:10:18.919 --> 00:10:23.279 And that particular pushing, continuing to push for those external flights. 170 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:28.519 We know because there are Pacific Island leaders. There are 171 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:31.159 many of them that are incredibly honest and courageous, and 172 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:33.960 one of them was President of the Federal States of 173 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:37.320 Micronesia at the time, and he wrote letters which became 174 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:41.080 public to regional leadership describing the sort of pressure he 175 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:44.639 was being put under by by the Chinese to keep 176 00:10:44.720 --> 00:10:48.559 flights coming in even though internal flights within China were 177 00:10:48.600 --> 00:10:52.879 being blocked. So it's not just a kind of in 178 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:56.559 the DC things. Might you get an idea that sits 179 00:10:56.600 --> 00:10:58.519 in a think tank and it sounds very grand and 180 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:01.600 nobody ever acts on it, but this comprehensive national power 181 00:11:01.679 --> 00:11:06.720 mentality seems to have actually translated into action that affects 182 00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:10.039 the way that they were willing to interact with the region. 183 00:11:10.600 --> 00:11:13.840 It also shows why I think that their approach is 184 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:18.440 not just zero sum game. They will go into negative 185 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:22.080 if the other side loses more So it's a very 186 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:25.440 it's a different mentality. It takes a I think as 187 00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:28.799 a kind of you know, sort of rational person who 188 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:31.799 cares about community and has a different point of view 189 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:34.720 on the world to accept it. But for me, it's 190 00:11:34.879 --> 00:11:37.639 explained a lot of things that I otherwise found inexplicable. 191 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:42.080 I had the same little mini journey when I was 192 00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:44.960 reading about it prepping the show, because when I saw 193 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:48.919 the comprehensive National power, I went, Okay, somebody is translating 194 00:11:49.799 --> 00:11:53.440 from Mandarin into English what we call the hole a 195 00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:56.759 government approach or the inner agency. And then as I 196 00:11:56.759 --> 00:11:58.879 started to read up more on it, I went, no, 197 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:02.559 it's closer too. You know, we talked about the whole 198 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:06.279 of government or the inner agency. We're really internal looking 199 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:09.759 like what are we doing, not really focused on what 200 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:14.840 the effects are externally to the other targets, like what 201 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:17.320 do we have in our little bureaucratics due that we're 202 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:19.919 doing right, irrespective of what it might happen when it 203 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:24.480 leaves the Beltway. But the comprehensive national power, if the 204 00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:27.320 in collectorm line, it says almost like it makes sense 205 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:31.399 from the Chinese Communist Party's perspective because it almost has 206 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:36.279 a flavor of their internal social credit score, where we're 207 00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:39.120 going to put metrics on things. I think that there 208 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:44.080 are some things that are hard to quantify, but you can, 209 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:46.519 if you have the right metrics, get close to it. 210 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:49.120 They said, no, we need we need something that we 211 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:51.799 can rack and stack all the other nations against. And 212 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:54.600 we're going to use this process. And it's external looking. 213 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:59.120 It's not focused on Oh, I'm sure the CCP has 214 00:12:59.159 --> 00:13:04.639 at'll bureaucracy that's interly focused, at least this view of 215 00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:11.399 international relations. It really is externally focused on what's worth 216 00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:14.679 their effort and not. And I wanted to quote a 217 00:13:14.679 --> 00:13:17.720 bit from You have an article that went out at 218 00:13:17.759 --> 00:13:22.639 the US Naval War College in twenty twenty three titled 219 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:25.799 Island Hopping with Chinese Characteristics that I kind of stole 220 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:28.080 that title for something else last week, so I'll give 221 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:30.960 you appropriate credit. We dire the second paragraph there is 222 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:34.279 a real interesting quote. I want you to pull the 223 00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:37.440 thread on for me. It's an hour long, so i'll 224 00:13:37.480 --> 00:13:41.080 do an extended quote. So quote in his twenty eleven 225 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:44.919 book The Pacific Islands in China's Grand Strategy, Small States, 226 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:49.120 big gains, professor, professor, and I'm gonna mispronounce it. Forgive 227 00:13:49.159 --> 00:13:53.799 me yan Yang rights. China's growing involvement in the South 228 00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:58.120 Pacific is part of Chinese China's growing involvement worldwide. The 229 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:02.080 discussion of Chinese involvement and policy towards the South Pacific 230 00:14:02.240 --> 00:14:06.519 should be placed within this bigger picture. An isolated study 231 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:11.799 without understanding China's grand strategy and overall foreign policy goals 232 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:17.200 can be misguided and of extended quote. So it's you'll 233 00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:21.080 look at in isolation, that's a problem, but it is 234 00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:23.720 a cog in this larger plan that they seem to 235 00:14:23.720 --> 00:14:24.600 be rolling out. 236 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:30.399 Yes, and chen yank So it's interesting. It's very interesting 237 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:33.039 what you said about whole government because it's social credit. 238 00:14:33.120 --> 00:14:37.279 So those two concepts really really show how they are 239 00:14:37.320 --> 00:14:40.360 different and how they are. Yes, exporting a social credit system, 240 00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:43.440 and they don't stop that. Whole of government. This is 241 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:45.919 you know, it's communis system, it's whole of systems. So 242 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:49.000 what they have, for example, if you look at the 243 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:53.639 twenty seventeen National Intelligence Law in China, you are compelled, 244 00:14:53.679 --> 00:14:57.720 if you're a Chinese company or Chinese citizen to support 245 00:14:57.799 --> 00:15:00.919 Chinese intelligence operations. You'll be rewarded if you do, and 246 00:15:00.960 --> 00:15:03.960 you'll be punished if you don't. That's the law, and 247 00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:09.480 it is, you know, extremely difficult to be a Chinese citizen. 248 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:14.440 You are controlled to a very very high degree. And 249 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:17.080 what you're starting to see, and one of the reasons 250 00:15:17.120 --> 00:15:22.120 why the Pacific Islands are so interesting is because you 251 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:25.000 can they're so small enough so that you can see 252 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:27.799 the levers that China goes after when it targets a 253 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:32.120 country very quickly. And in the case of the Solomon Islands, 254 00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:36.559 for example, there was again another extremely courageous leader, Daniel Sudani, 255 00:15:36.600 --> 00:15:39.519 who is the leader, he's the premier of was premier 256 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:42.120 of one of the provinces there. Alomon Islands is a 257 00:15:42.159 --> 00:15:44.799 really good case study because they switch from Taiwan to 258 00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:48.559 Trina in twenty nineteen, so you can there's a starting point, 259 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:50.720 so you can start to see what they go after, 260 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:54.799 you know, they and what pieces of equipment they want 261 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:58.519 to get installed, including of course the Huawei towers. And 262 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:01.200 in his case, he tried to stand up to it, 263 00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:06.080 so he blocked any Chinese Communist Party linked investment in 264 00:16:05.799 --> 00:16:08.600 his province. When he came in, his government put out 265 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:12.080 this communicate explaining why. And one of the reasons why 266 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:15.720 was they believe in freedom of religion and they didn't 267 00:16:15.759 --> 00:16:20.200 want to have the term they used was systemically atheist 268 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:23.879 entity operating within their province. They thought it was bad 269 00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:26.559 for their society, and they went after him. There was 270 00:16:26.600 --> 00:16:29.639 a lot of Chinese linked money that went after getting 271 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:32.519 him out of his premier and then he had his 272 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:37.879 actual elected seat taken away. And the grounds for that 273 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:41.279 from the pro PERC central government that took away his 274 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:43.639 provincial seat, so it would be like the federal government 275 00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:48.279 taking away the seat of a state senator for example, 276 00:16:49.080 --> 00:16:52.799 was that he refused to accept China's definition of one 277 00:16:52.919 --> 00:16:56.600 China policy. So it was the first time I know 278 00:16:56.799 --> 00:17:00.440 where there was this exportation in the political world of 279 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:04.759 essentially a social credit system. If you don't accept China's 280 00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:09.039 view of the world, you get canceled in your country 281 00:17:09.079 --> 00:17:13.960 through the PRC's proxies. So it's it's it's kind of 282 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:17.559 that that is a pure display of comprehensive national power, 283 00:17:18.160 --> 00:17:21.160 and there are there are all of these quite big 284 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:25.200 units that have been set up like United Front that 285 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:28.920 push comprehensive national power and are trying to get themselves 286 00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:34.240 in a position to enforce. This signification or ccpification is 287 00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:38.359 actually more accurate of domestic politics in countries when it 288 00:17:38.400 --> 00:17:44.160 gets enough influence. So yeah, understanding that it's coming, it's 289 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:46.400 coming into the US. It's coming into the US, and 290 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:49.559 you can see it very clearly in the in a 291 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:52.359 lot of different ways domestically. I mean, fentanyl is a 292 00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:58.359 classic example of unrestricted warfare to support comprehensive national power. 293 00:17:59.480 --> 00:18:04.079 It's kills at a minimum seventy thousand Americans last year. 294 00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:08.240 And for every American that dies, that destroys a family, 295 00:18:09.039 --> 00:18:11.440 and there are a lot that don't die who are 296 00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:15.759 addicts that are also destroying families. This is extremely an 297 00:18:15.839 --> 00:18:19.160 unrestricted warfare. Of course, is another term that came out 298 00:18:19.160 --> 00:18:21.480 of the PLA. It was a book written by two 299 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:25.079 PLA Air Force kernels in nineteen ninety nine which includes 300 00:18:26.160 --> 00:18:29.720 drugs warfare as one of the twenty plus warfares that 301 00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:36.359 it talks about. So there we can see this happenings 302 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:42.079 across a broad spectrum of interventions, and it is functioning 303 00:18:42.160 --> 00:18:45.640 to decrease the US's comprehensive national power and in a 304 00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:51.759 relative sense, increase China's comprehensive national power, and just quickly 305 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:54.880 if you don't mind, because he quoted Jianyang. So Jianyang 306 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:57.279 was who wrote that book, and that was one of 307 00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:01.759 the first books I saw in English about China's view 308 00:19:01.799 --> 00:19:04.880 of the Pacific Islands, and this reference to comprehensive national 309 00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:08.119 he himself, I met him. I met him in New 310 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:11.160 Zealand when he was running the New Zealand Institute of 311 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:14.880 International Affairs. He was a professor I think the University 312 00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:17.880 of Auckland. He then went on to become a member 313 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:22.000 of Parliament in New Zealand and was leading or very 314 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:24.920 can I put it, he was conduit for a lot 315 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:29.839 of the ministerial meetings between China and New Zealand. And 316 00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:33.000 it later came out that before coming to New Zealand, 317 00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:36.119 he had spent about a decade teaching at a Chinese 318 00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:40.920 spy academy, and so he himself had sort of seemed 319 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.640 to embody what he described in his book as the 320 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:48.440 responsibilities of overseas Chinese, which which is to basically, if 321 00:19:48.440 --> 00:19:51.680 he can continue to help the homeland. Now, there are 322 00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:55.240 a lot of overseas Chinese who have fled China and 323 00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:58.079 who just want to get away from that whole system, 324 00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:02.240 and we see the biggest victims of the system, obviously 325 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:04.839 of the Chinese people, but we see these setting ups 326 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:09.519 of these illegal police stations and prosecutions of dissidents, and 327 00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:12.759 using family left in China, our business interests, lefts in 328 00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:15.960 China in order to try to course people who still 329 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:19.880 have a tie back to China into being useful to 330 00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:24.039 this CCP if they can be. So it really is, 331 00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:27.119 it's operating in it and of course all of this 332 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:30.359 to advance China's comprehensive national power. So it really it 333 00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:33.000 does operate in a completely different way. And in the 334 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:36.559 Pacific Islands, because they're so small, you can really see 335 00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:38.079 it and you can see what it does to a 336 00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:42.200 society and how quickly it just erodes and destroys all 337 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:47.519 of the pillars of democracy, transparency, accountability, human rights, the 338 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:51.599 basic kind of freedoms that one hundred thousand Americans died 339 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:54.559 for eighty years ago as they went across the Pacific. 340 00:20:56.039 --> 00:20:58.839 Yeah, that's one of the reasons I raised that comprehensive 341 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.319 national power thing. Is that quote from from Captain Moreland 342 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:06.640 about for the Chinese Communist Party, comprehensive national power is 343 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:10.759 measured by a CNP SCOPS is a goal in itself 344 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:13.720 in pursuit of CNP justifies just about everything. And when 345 00:21:13.720 --> 00:21:19.000 you go through the the island hopping uh piece you 346 00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:21.559 have from the Naval War College, you know, you talk 347 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:25.440 about entropic warfare and the way that if they can't 348 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:28.359 they get things head on, then the way then they 349 00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:30.759 they're trying to go around the back door. Talk about 350 00:21:30.839 --> 00:21:35.839 about the approach they're taking to like with the the 351 00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:39.519 Northern Marianas. What what are they doing there to get 352 00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:43.279 to get their talents into into that area. 353 00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:49.960 So the coll the Northern Marianna is is zone. So 354 00:21:50.119 --> 00:21:55.440 Guam is Southern Mariana Island right basically. And it's so 355 00:21:55.480 --> 00:21:58.960 there's this chain of islands, the Mariannas that go from 356 00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:05.279 Guam and then if you go north you hit Rooda, Tinian, Saipan, 357 00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:07.480 and then for the north you get kind of Pagan 358 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:10.319 and other islands up there. So the Commonwealth of Northern 359 00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:14.319 Marianna is that string of islands to the north of Guam, 360 00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:18.480 and they were kind of ethnically similar at least originally 361 00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:22.119 Tomorrow people were there and Carolinian people were there are there, 362 00:22:22.279 --> 00:22:26.680 but Guam became part of the United States through the 363 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:29.759 Spanish American War, the US took the Philippines, obviously in 364 00:22:29.839 --> 00:22:32.680 Guam few other things, but didn't take a lot of 365 00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:37.160 the other Pacific islands that had been Spanish possessions, including 366 00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:39.920 what's now the Commonwealth of Northern Marianna Islands. So the 367 00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:44.119 Spanish sold them to the Germans, and including whole other 368 00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:47.119 swaths like Yap and stuff was sold to the Germans, 369 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:51.759 who understood how strategic these locations were. One hundred and 370 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:55.400 twenty years ago we talked about undersea cable issues. Now, 371 00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:58.839 the telegraph cables were the issues then, and Yap was 372 00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:06.640 a hub for German telegraphy at that time. Then the Germans, 373 00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:10.079 of course were on the wrong side of World War One, 374 00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:14.880 and the Japanese took those German possessions, and from nineteen 375 00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:20.599 fourteen to nineteen forty four, the Japanese controlled what is 376 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:24.440 now the Komwalth in Northern Mariana's Palau, Federal State's Micronesia 377 00:23:24.519 --> 00:23:27.720 and the Marshall Islands. That whole zone which covers an 378 00:23:28.599 --> 00:23:31.240 area of the surface area the planet about the size 379 00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:37.000 of the continental United States. And then the Americans went 380 00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:40.160 through beat the Japanese, and then then that whole zone 381 00:23:40.359 --> 00:23:42.960 was all part of the Trust Territories. And then after 382 00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:46.039 that they became those three independent countries that I mentioned, 383 00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:49.039 and CNMI, Komwalth and North Amyanas voted to join the 384 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:52.559 United States of America. So this is the newest part 385 00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:56.480 of the United States of America. These Saipan Tinian those 386 00:23:56.480 --> 00:24:00.000 are Americans in an American territory. They sent a represent 387 00:24:00.000 --> 00:24:02.240 counative to Congress that they have a governor who goes 388 00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:07.079 to the Governor's meetings. Very interesting place. Highly recommend every 389 00:24:07.240 --> 00:24:10.599 American go visit their fellow Americans out there. They serve 390 00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:15.000 in the US military at very high rates. The patriotic people. 391 00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:18.720 They're about forty fifty thousand people who live on Saipan. 392 00:24:19.079 --> 00:24:22.480 The challenge that they've had is they are very far 393 00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:26.559 from the mainland, and so when they joined the US, 394 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:33.359 they were given control over certain aspect economic aspects like 395 00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:40.200 labor laws for example, and so they set up garment 396 00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:45.160 factories and the Chinese ran the garment factories there, and 397 00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:47.599 you may remember stories about some of the abuses that 398 00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:52.480 were happening those Chinese garment factories, and there were also 399 00:24:52.519 --> 00:24:54.799 issues around birth tourism and things like that. But what 400 00:24:54.799 --> 00:24:57.680 that did was that allowed the Chinese influence to come 401 00:24:57.720 --> 00:25:02.319