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Speaker 1: Well, here's a selfish statement. One of the coolest things

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I could to do is talk to people I admire.

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Doctor Sean McDowell joins us, we'll get started with the

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help of God Almighty.

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Speaker 2: But Todd Herman show is disapproved by big pharma technocrats

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and tyrone Sabrian ware from the high Mountains of Free America.

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Here's the Emerald City Xi Todd Herman.

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Speaker 1: Today is to day the Lord has made, and these

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are the times to which God has decided we shall live.

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And it's really cool to sit here with doctor Sean

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mcdoll's wife, Stephanie is off stage. Appreciate you coming in.

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Thank you very much, Stephanie. And I have your bio Sean,

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and I have the short version and I could read

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it and no, I can do that, and we can

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do that. I'm very curious, given all that God has

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done through you and allows you to experience, how do

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you introduce yourself?

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Speaker 3: Oh gosh, I don't normally introduce myself now that I

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think about it, but I guess I would say I

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probably start professionally because that's what people want to know

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about me. That I teach at by a university top

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school theology I'm an apologist, and then I write books

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and I speak, do YouTube. But the more important thing

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about me is that I'm a husband and I'm a

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dad of three kids.

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Speaker 1: That's the part I wanted to hear. That's the part

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that I think is important for us men to confess

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to and to start with. And I mean, I'll read

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the short bio. Sean mcdollis Professor of Apologetics at the

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Talbot School of Theology, Biola Universities. Earned two master's degrees

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in philosophy and theology, his PhD and apologetics and worldview studies.

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He's the author, editor co author of more than twenty books,

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including More Than a Carpenter, Chasing Love and The Stalemate,

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and The Fate of the Apostles. He's the co host

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of Think Biblically podcast, one of the most popular podcasts

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in the intersection of faith and culture. Very true that

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Sean is one of the top apologetics YouTube channels. He's

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an internetional renowned speaker, and he's on the teaching team.

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He just said that your home church in southern California.

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And I always like to hear people introduce themselves. I

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used to ask people at corporate events when our und

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corporate events, we have this little exercise I would say

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to people, who are you? And what's your name? And

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it's not the same answer. And it was always interesting

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to see people in corporate America struggle with that who

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are you? And that's where I wanted to start with.

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Who are we in the eyes of Jesus Christ? Who

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let's start with people in general, just the big, big picture.

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Who are we in the eyes of the Lord Jesus.

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Speaker 3: Well, I do love starting here because I think one

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of the biggest issues of our day is what does

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it mean to be human?

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Speaker 1: Who are we?

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Speaker 3: We're wrestling with that question when it comes to sexuality,

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What does it mean to be human? What are we

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made for? We're wrestling with that question. On artificial intelligence?

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Is there something unique about us being human? Will computers

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ever be able to think like we are? This is

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really one of the most important questions of our day.

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So I think biblically, if we start the first thing

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is that we are made in the image of God.

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The Bible starts by saying in the beginning God created,

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So God's the author of the story. He made all

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of creation purposefully, and human beings are uniquely made in

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God's image. That means we have purpose. It also means

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we have value simply because we're human. Now, when you

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fast forward to the New Testament, we learn that Jesus

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paid the highest price for us by laying down his life.

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So you asked about introducing me and how I define myself,

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and that's important. But if you really want to know

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what somebody cares about what's important to them, look at

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what they sacrifice for. What we sacrifice for reveals what

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matters most.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 3: The New Testament says Jesus literally laid down his life.

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That's the most you can sacrifice for all of us.

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So we have a God who took on human flesh

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like us to relate to us and then laid down

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his life for each one of us. I can't think

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of a religion that has a higher value for human

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beings and that has done more to be in relationship

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with us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a beautiful way to say it. I'm someone

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who made the horrible mistake of trying to think my

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way to God. Why not a bad mistake? Well, I

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guess because you know to think that you can match

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intellect with the Lord of the universe and think your

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way to understanding Jesus is almost like thinking about someone

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or reading about someone without getting to know someone. But

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one thing that hit me in my thinking phase is

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I think that we are also people that God is

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gifted up with something I don't know that we consider

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a common blessing, but you talked about AI. I believe

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human curiosity is one of the greatest signs that God

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loves us, because I think He has given us an

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immediate reward for seeking him out. So we do something

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like read the Bible. We can get a dopamine hit.

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This matters, but it's more sustaining that. Or you can

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read about the fact that when the sperm penetrates the egg,

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there's a burst of light, and let there be light.

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You can read about this commonisment. Maybe this is just me,

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but when I get that mental reward, I want more

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of this. I see this in the stars, I see

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this in our DNA. So I feel like if you

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would ask me who am I, I'm a seeker who

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finally allowed myself to find God. And I think this

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is one of the biggest gifts He's given us. So

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God has used you for so many things, and I

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want to boil this down from the wide range of

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human beings, and we'll get back to groups of humans.

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But where do you think God has gifted you most?

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And it don't mean this to be pandering, honestly, if

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you're to assess this, where do you think God gifted

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you most?

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Speaker 3: I think probably the best way God gifted me is

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with the most remarkable family he could have possibly given me.

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Grown up, there were times where I thought, Ah, we're

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living in the mountains. I wish we were more near

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the beach. Or I love the game of basketball, like

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I've just got to go out there and shoot alone again.

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I wish there were courts where people play it. I

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wish we go to the mall. There was always like

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the grass is greener at times. Even though I had

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a wonderful childhood growing up, looking back now is like, oh,

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my goodness, from where I lived, family that loves me,

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the example of who my father is. I kid you

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not Todd. There's not another family on the planet I

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would have rather grown up in than mine.

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Speaker 1: Period.

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Speaker 3: So that's the greatest gift that God has given me.

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I think your question is a little bit more maybe

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my spiritual gifts or not.

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Speaker 1: It was just a wide open question, and I wanted

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you to answer it with that, and that leads us

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into a conversation that I think is one of the

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most important conversations we need to have when asked who

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we are how does God see us? I've been doing

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a series of videos trying to reach young men because

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I think there's a lot of false teaching going into

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the years of young men right now. Agree and one

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of the things I consistently hear is what we're all

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children of God. Now, part of that I think is aspirational,

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but that is not what the Bible says. That's right.

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So going back to this, who are we in God's eyes?

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Let's now go through his children versus his human creation.

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How does he see us differently? Or does he That's

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a great distinction. When people say we're all children of God?

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I say, what do you mean by children of God?

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If we mean God in a sense is the father

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of all creation, and he made us, none of us

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would be here and have life and breath and everything

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apart from God creating us. So in that sense might say,

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broadly speaking, we're children of God. We look at the gospel,

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John and Jesus is debating with the Pharisees and he

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calls them sons of the Devil.

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Speaker 3: Wow, right, which raises other questions about you know, Jesus

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just telling stories and being nice. I mean, he called

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them out for their hypocrisy, called him sons the devil.

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So it's kind of like, yes, God is the creation

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of all of us, but we are adopted into the

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Kingdom of God and the Family of God of course

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by faith through grace in Jesus Christ. So I think

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in some ways this is what Jesus was doing when

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they talk about in Mark chapter three. They're like, your

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father and your mother and your brother are outside wanting you,

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and in that culture, your identity came primarily from your

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biological family. So like the term Johnson comes from son

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of John Donaldson, son of Donald, you were the son

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of your father. So Jesus was supposed to stop everything

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he's doing, go out to his biological family, and he's like, uh, no,

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those who do the will of God are my mother

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and brother. You know, it's sister my family. He's drawing

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new family lines, saying those who follow the will of

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the Lord are in my family, which implies that those

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who don't understand who I am are not in the

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family of God. So Jesus gave us a pretty serious

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call to repent from our sins and choose to be

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adopted into the family of God.

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Speaker 1: You shared with me about your family, shared a little

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bit about mine. Is is I was blessed. My dad was.

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I had a master's in social work and spent his

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life helping kids. And my mom is a master's degree

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in teaching and master's degree in early childhood development. Very

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good family. I don't know that I was a blessed

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like you were. And I don't mean to denigrate my parents.

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My father's passed on and by the way, came to

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Jesus in the hospital through a pot smoking cowboy pastor.

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It I'm just amazing. And the pot smoking cowboy pastor

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closes the deal. Well I'm not there. Oh, you're such

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a good story. What a day to get to hang

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out with someone like Sean McDowell. It's really cool. This

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is a cool job when you get to do this.

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Earlier today, I was hanging out with a guy who

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is a world rank strong man, much younger guy than me,

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and man, he had a bad injury recently. He was

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doing a bench press on the floor a floor press

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and has hips way up and he was doing three

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hundred and twenty five pounds for reps and then boom

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tech pair or peck tear tore his left pack. Now

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he knows what he's doing, and he knows that I

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unload something like that and it didn't crush him. Very

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fortunate that he was on the floor when he did this.

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So guess what I said to him? Bad luck? I said, look, man,

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I'm gonna tell you you got to go get the

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stem cells I got in Mexico. He has a competition

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coming up in June, and he's a world rank strong man.

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And what I'm telling him is, look, I heard it

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my shoulder tear. He hurt his tear. Guy who was

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spotting me when my shoulder tore, he actually heard it.

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I'm going to bet if someone had been spotting my

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friend and they probably will heard it as well. So

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why was I saying that? Because I know from experience

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that you will heal a thousand times faster from any injury.

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I know for a fact they can help you avoid

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surgery acl MCL shoulder tears, back tears. I've seen it

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happen probably fifty times. In my case. My left shoulder

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has never really gotten back into good working order versus

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my right shoulder. Same operation. But if you just look

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at the video, one is straight. One's not the right shoulder.

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I got my push up some pulps back in about

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twelve weeks. This one took about forty eight. So whether

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it's avoiding surgery or healing more quickly from it, or

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going through their anti aging protocol, which is the next

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reason I'm going down, get in touch with renew dot healthcare.

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It's that's the name renew and it's dot healthcare instead

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of dot com. They'll look at your MRI, they look

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at your medical situation, they'll help you understand your epigenetic aging,

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how quickly you're aging, and they can help you sew

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that down, become CEO of your own health, or simply

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avoid surgery or heal more quickly. It's Renew and you

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dot Healthcare. But I recently, in the past two years,

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the family I lived with, a family who lived out

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the word of Jesus. And you know, they told me Sean,

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we were driving around Idaho and Gary, who is the father,

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said well, we consider you a fourth son, and Karen said,

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truly we do. That felt earned. We can't earn the

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love of Jesus. Yeah, but I'd felt that, I'd felt

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like family. And so I'm thinking about inner culture today,

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and I'm thinking about family, and I'm watching culturally institutions shaken.

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People we were talking about, you know, institutions, people lacking

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faith in institutions. I'm watching an attack on the family, Sean.

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And I'm seeing phrases come up, like have you heard

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the phrase detachment broker.

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Speaker 3: I've heard it, but I don't know, Zach what it means.

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You have to explain it.

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Speaker 1: So there's a woman named Alison Pugh is writing about

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therapists and teachers who are literally in the business of

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telling children and adult children and teens you should jettison

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your parents and your sister and your brother. Oh man.

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And I'm torn in this spiritually. Jesus said, I've not

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come to you like with the divide. You are exposed

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to a lot more in this spiritual world than I am.

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And are you seeing anything similar an attack on the family.

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Speaker 3: That's an interesting angle. And let me say one thing.

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You got me thinking in the back of my mind

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that he did say, you know, Jesus like hate your

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brother and mother, You know and follow me, and of

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course I think he's using hyperboles to say that our

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allegiance to Christ is number one. But I also think

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of Jesus on the cross and he says to John

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about his mother. He says, this is your mother, and

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you see this deep love and affection that there's something

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about his mother there that is godly as well. Those

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don't contradict. We just have to hold them in a

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little bit of tension that's there. So I think God

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does want us. I mean, you just read through some

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of the epistles and it's like the characteristic for a

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deacon or church leader is the kind of family man

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that you are. So those are not at odds. They're

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just important to keep that tension in place. I've been

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thinking about recently, and it's interesting you asked me this,

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what are Satan's biggest lies? Because Satan John Aight is

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a murderer and he's a liar. I think number one

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is always on the gospel to twist the gospel, corrupt

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the gospel. I came up with this talk at my

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home church and people and asked me to give it

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everywhere about nine false gospels in the church and outside

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of the church. Some are obvious and some are very subtle.

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So the first thing Satan's going to want to lie

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about is the means of salvation and eternal life. Then

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I think, well, what's after that? I think very close

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second is going to be the family, because the family

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is God's desire, and we see it in gen It's

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just chapter one. That's where we get faith passed on.

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That's where we get modeled what it means to follow

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the Lord. And my wife and I were talking about

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my son and just reflecting, I mean so many things

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without me telling him to. He loves some of the

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things that I love. He does some of the things

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that I do, and I just think, Wow, he has

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learned from his father, modeling this like I learned from

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my father. And I was reading with my students in

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a class at BIO this week the Communist Manifesto. I've

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read it many times and right in there, one of

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the top principles is abolish the family, get rid of it,

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and it talks about we need top down state education.

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And I asked my students, I'm like, why would they

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do that? And they're like, because the family's going to

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get in the way of the authority of the state.

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So we need to get rid of the family. And

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I think when if Satan's effective at that, it destroys

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our joy, it destroys our witness to the wider world.

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So I do think some Satan's most some of his

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greatest energy is to destroy the family itself. And the

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way you mentioned is probably one growing way amongst many

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that were seeing that emerge today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned the Mcomy's manifesto, and I'm sure you've

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read about Carmax's fault from faith some Yeah. I mean,

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so he was. He grew up Lutheran and developed a

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hatred for the Lord Jesus, wrote poetry about how he

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would stomp on the word of the Lord Jesus, how

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his ideas would overcome that of the Lord Jesus. Wow,

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I mean he was vriiantly anti Christ. I think there

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are full frontal assaults. I think detachment brokering is a

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full frontal assault. I think that parents who have had

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their kids taken away because the parents refuse to agree

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with the lies of gender ideology, that's a full frontal assault.

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We're north Idaho. I think that one of the sneakest

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things the devil does came about. I had a conversation

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with a young guy several years ago. Was his girlfriend

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had broken up with him, first time that ever happened,

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and you know, he was fifteen, and they were going

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to be married forever. And I said, yeah, but that's

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not really it. That's not really why you're sad. He goes, no,

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my dog died. Gosh, that's hard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I went to the backyard and we live in

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up in the mountains, and it's really rough ground up there,

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and my mom and my sister out there trying to

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use a pickaxe to dig this hole, and they couldn't

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dig this hole. And I took over and I buried

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our dog. And my dad he works in California because

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he makes a ton more money, like twice as much money,

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and he only comes here a couple of times a month.

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I said, well, they're married. He goes, yeah, they're married.

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But I barely see him. My dad came home, said

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show me where he buried the dog, and I showed him.

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My dad said, that's a garbage hole. That's not deep enough.

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You screwed this up a And I said to my dad,

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you never even taught me how to dig a hole,

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And my dad said to me, do you eat? We

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have three houses in a lake house. I don't have

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time to teach you how to dig holes. You should

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know that. And my response, you know, as a youth leader,

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is hey, gosh, that's hard to hear. And you know,

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I can see that your father is a hard worker.

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He really honors his role as a provider, and I

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want us to honor that. But that really hurt you,

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didn't it. That man has I think taken what I

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consider a sneaky lie the role of men in the home.

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I asked my boys this all the time. We consistently

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have to reteach it. What is the role of a

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Christian man? It is not just providing. What is it?

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What does Jesus expect of as Christian men?

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Speaker 3: That's a great question. You're right when you said a

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sneaky lie. Those are the most powerful conniving lies. I

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took a class at Bioll's, one of my favorite classes.

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I was a calm major, and they talked about how

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the most effective form of persuasion is when you don't

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even know you're being persuaded. So when satany subtle lies

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in this case, while I'm providing financially, you have safety

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and you have security. Check the box of.

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Speaker 1: Being a dad.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's a conniving lie, because that's not what this

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young man needed. I mean, I grow I think about

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my childhood, grown up, and my dad was just amazing.

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He's my hero. He's still alive, and he would travel

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around and he would debate and write books. And all

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these people are like, what's it like to me Josh

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mcdell's kid, And they had this idea from the outside,

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and to me, it's like, you know what, the times

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we just go shoot hoops, the times you go to movie,

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we'd send a jacuzzi and flow popcorn around. It was

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actually those relational moments that are as special, if not

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more so. That's what gives you identity, That's what gives

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you security, that's what just helps you feel loved. And

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that's what this young man was missing. And somehow this

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father had justified in his own mind that that was okay.

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He checked the box, and that kid is hurting because

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of it. So I think, I mean, what's a role

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as a husband, more than anything is to love my wife.

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My dad said to me many times, he said, the

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greatest thing you can do for your kids is to

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love their mom. And most of us think, well, love

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your kids is number one. You go, No, your first

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task is to love their mom. That's where their security

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will come from, and of course that should be downstream.

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How do I love their mom? Well, we love their mom.

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Ephesians five about Jesus. You know, tell or Paul says

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to love husbands. Love your wives the way Christ loves

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the church sacrificially and with service and with care. So

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love God first, love your spouse. Spend time with your kids.

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I mean, it's really not that hard taught. It's really not.

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We almost have to talk ourselves out of it rather

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than just knowing what kids need.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's well said. Sean. You're familiar with

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the phrase tradwife. I am. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: It's taking. It's gotten a little bit of a steam

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and attention today, hasn't it. Am.

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Speaker 1: I find myself again thinking about the lies as Satan tells,

401
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and they're sort of trad wives who somehow are always

402
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perfectly made up in the right dress and making the

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pies and they never get dirty, et cetera. But I

404
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see this, I see another sneaky lie, because there's the

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full frontal assault of well you don't need men, and

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you don't need marriage, and you can be same sex

407
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attracted and just as happy, and you can adopt kids,

408
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and you can you can manufacture families this way. But

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then there's this very very sneaky lie of in this case,

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I'll go back to this boy, who do you think

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put him in youth group?

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Speaker 3: Mom?

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Speaker 1: And I think there's this sneaky lie. Well, the father's

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not doing it, so mom's gonna step in. And of

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course I guess we want the kids at youth group, right, sure, yeah,

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that's great. And then suddenly, like I look at the

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interactions in youth group, nine times out of ten, if

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I'm getting a text message, it's from a mom, and

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if it's a questions from a mom, and I want

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parental involvement. But I think that one of these sneaky

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lies is that moms can be dads. And what do

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you think the lies that Satan tells mothers young women are.

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Speaker 3: Oh gosh, I'd love to ask my wife's some civiate

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that one's right here.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we could bring her in.

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Speaker 3: She would, she would give better answer, and I would

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When you said, you know that moms can be dads,

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I wonder if the lie behind that is at much

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as much that dads are not responsible for their kids'

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spiritual lives.

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Speaker 1: That's mom's job to do this.

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Speaker 3: I actually think more men feel like my wife will

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do this, then wives feel like I can be dad.

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That would be my suspicion, and I think that's a

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huge mistake.

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Speaker 1: And here's why.

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Speaker 3: The largest study I'm aware of of faith transmission it

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was four generations great grandparents, grandparents, parents' kids, thirty five years,

439
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thirty five hundred people by a professor at USC named

440
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Verne Benkston, and he published his book called Faith in

441
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Families with Oxford Press, and they were studying what factors

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are necessary for faith transmission. And they said, for example,

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grandparents now are playing a more significant role in the past,

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which is great. People are living longer, people are more mobile,

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they said, divorce rocks of kid's faith. On a positive side.

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Number one factor of faith transmission is a quote, and

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this is an academic study, a quote warm relationship with

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the father statistically speaking, number one. So women may feel

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that they can be or need to be husbands, and

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that's only because men are failing to be the kind

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of husbands that they need to be loving their spouses

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and modeling and teaching their kids spiritually. So if more

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men were doing that, I guarantee you the women would

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be thrilled and excited and supportive and not feeling like

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they have to carry that weight.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: Sean McDow is certainly no stranger to doing the right

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thing for the right reason. We started years ago working

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with a company called Alan Soaps. And this company exists

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because my friend John, who died about five about five

461
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weeks ago, went to the Lord Jesus he had a

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son named Alan, and they knew right away he wasn't

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going to be a typical physically neurotypical. In fact, the

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doctor said to Tina and John, why don't you let

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us kill your son for us, for you? And they said,

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absolutely not. This is our little boy and he's going

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to grow up and he's going to have a life.

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And they said, but no quality of life. They were wrong.

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Alan is thirteen. He's been through eighteen operations, and he

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doesn't move like other kids. He's effectively nonverbal, but he

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invents the soaps at Alan Soaps. Since John died, we've

472
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taken a break because Tina's had a lot to do

473
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she doesn't need to be weeding with the soap company. Now,

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we're trying to help her bring it back to prominence.

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John loved this company. The boys Alan and his brother Ian,

476
00:25:20,519 --> 00:25:23,359
who's also impacted by autism, they love this company. The

477
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soap is made in America by a family with three

478
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generations of soap making expertise. There's no chemicals in it.

479
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480
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the world. And we put together a package the four

481
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original fragrances that got this company off the ground, plus

482
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a cycle pouch for under twenty nine dollars. All I

483
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have to do is go to Alan Soaps dot com

484
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485
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486
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487
00:25:51,759 --> 00:25:54,680
promo code Todd. Yeah. This beautifully said. And it's also

488
00:25:54,759 --> 00:25:57,720
scary too, because it's easy, but it's also easy to

489
00:25:57,759 --> 00:26:01,920
not do, and it's easy to not realize that. It's

490
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,240
easy to fail to realize that you're falling down on

491
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,759
that front. And what are the great signs you see?

492
00:26:08,839 --> 00:26:10,400
I'll tell you one of the great signs I see

493
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,319
because I've been kind of mister downer on this asking

494
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,480
kind of down questions. Man, Sean, I see young guys

495
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,319
who want to ask me twenty or thirty questions a

496
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,680
night about faith. I love that. I see young men

497
00:26:23,839 --> 00:26:26,519
love that. This is crazy. I don't remember doing this

498
00:26:26,559 --> 00:26:28,240
when I was fifteen or sixteen. I just took some

499
00:26:28,279 --> 00:26:30,440
guys from the youth group out for a workout and

500
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:31,880
they came to one of the gyms I go to,

501
00:26:32,559 --> 00:26:35,079
and they were there ten minutes early, ready to rock,

502
00:26:35,319 --> 00:26:37,279
ready to rock. But they came up to me and

503
00:26:37,279 --> 00:26:39,319
they extended their arms wide and they said, we love

504
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,720
you and thank you. One of the boys said, I

505
00:26:42,759 --> 00:26:44,680
know I'm taking you away from your wife and your family.

506
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,440
Thank you for taking this time. We love you. I

507
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,799
see that. I see young men saying to me, but

508
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,759
how do we stop porn? We do want to stop,

509
00:26:54,759 --> 00:26:58,640
but Todd, how how do we find godly wives? We

510
00:26:58,680 --> 00:26:59,559
want to do these things.

511
00:26:59,599 --> 00:26:59,759
Speaker 2: Man.

512
00:26:59,839 --> 00:27:02,640
Speaker 1: I see the Lord Jesus working in these ways, and

513
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,559
I see young men being changed, and I get to

514
00:27:04,599 --> 00:27:07,759
watch this happen. And you touch a lot more people

515
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,720
than I do spiritually. So where do you see the

516
00:27:11,799 --> 00:27:15,319
face of God and the progress and the excitements.

517
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,759
Speaker 3: I so I love that question. I don't know about

518
00:27:17,799 --> 00:27:20,799
me have an impact on more young people. We're in

519
00:27:20,799 --> 00:27:23,440
our lanes and God's doing this and using both of

520
00:27:23,519 --> 00:27:25,799
us in different ways. So I would say a couple

521
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,000
things come to mind. There's been there's been a lot

522
00:27:28,039 --> 00:27:31,119
of talk recently. Is there a revival? Is there restoration faith?

523
00:27:31,279 --> 00:27:34,400
Is there an interspiritually And there's been some studies that

524
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,319
have come out and said we haven't officially seen a

525
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:42,039
revival in the numbers, although some things indicate, like Bible

526
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,680
sales are up, so there's enough there to kind of

527
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:47,839
make us think something's going on. But it's not this

528
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,519
definitive upswing. But I can just tell you experientially, like

529
00:27:52,599 --> 00:27:55,720
what you said, everywhere I go, I get so many

530
00:27:55,839 --> 00:28:00,359
questions about faith with a kind of vulnerability and openness

531
00:28:00,759 --> 00:28:04,359
that my generation didn't ask. And some of this might

532
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,880
just be the nature of how the Internet has shifted.

533
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,640
The conversation is kind of in your face. People can

534
00:28:09,799 --> 00:28:13,279
talk about anything. Some of what used to be shameful

535
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,119
is not shameful anymore. So there's a downside to that,

536
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,119
but the positive side is there's just a real openness

537
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,759
and a willingness. And the reason they're coming to you

538
00:28:21,839 --> 00:28:23,640
is I think there's so many in this generation that

539
00:28:23,799 --> 00:28:28,359
just want and need fathers, and your father type figures

540
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:33,279
is what they're yearning for. So I'm encouraged whenever I

541
00:28:33,319 --> 00:28:36,079
speak to young people anybody who says this generation doesn't

542
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,519
care about the Gospel, they don't care about spiritual things,

543
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,079
they're not asking questions, I'm like, follow me around for

544
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,200
a week. Everywhere I go, I'm getting tough questions and

545
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:51,440
I'm interacted with young people, and so that's encouraging. One

546
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,759
thing I would say, related to something you said earlier,

547
00:28:54,319 --> 00:28:58,039
here's one of the lies that this generation faces. And

548
00:28:58,079 --> 00:29:00,559
one of the things I find myself saying more and

549
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,599
more and more is that there's kind of a mantra

550
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,680
I think for women and for young men that says,

551
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,000
have your career, get through college, live out your twenties,

552
00:29:11,119 --> 00:29:12,880
and then you don't have to get married to be happy,

553
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,599
but maybe get married, maybe have kids. Do that when

554
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,519
you're maybe thirties or forties. It's something you do later on.

555
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:26,079
There's a fascinating new study by a sociologist at University

556
00:29:26,079 --> 00:29:29,799
of Virginia named Bradley Wilcox. He's Catholic, and he's published

557
00:29:29,839 --> 00:29:34,680
in a book called Get Married, and he shows just

558
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,839
a great title. He says, the studies are actually very

559
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,240
clear a few things. Number one is that those who

560
00:29:42,279 --> 00:29:47,319
get married, especially men, make more than those who don't.

561
00:29:47,799 --> 00:29:50,359
So you make more than a couple who's living together

562
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,799
and not married, and you make more than the equivalent

563
00:29:52,799 --> 00:29:56,799
of somebody else who's single. So getting married shifts your focus,

564
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,240
it shifts your work ethic, and you actually be become

565
00:30:00,319 --> 00:30:04,039
more productive. But more importantly, they said, people who are

566
00:30:04,119 --> 00:30:09,079
married men and women as a whole, are significantly happier

567
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,400
than those who are not, significantly happier. In fact, he

568
00:30:13,559 --> 00:30:16,759
argues that whether you're married or not is the single

569
00:30:16,799 --> 00:30:21,599
most definitive predictor of happiness. And by the way, he says,

570
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,240
even in their twenties, people who get married younger are

571
00:30:25,319 --> 00:30:28,920
happier in their twenties than those who don't. And it's

572
00:30:29,039 --> 00:30:31,440
for this generation they think, if I can have certain

573
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,559
things and have certain experiences and build my name, I'll

574
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,000
be happy. What marriage does is like no, Actually, happiness

575
00:30:39,079 --> 00:30:43,079
is about sacrifice. It's about building something with somebody else.

576
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,960
And so I find myself saying to young men. First off,

577
00:30:46,119 --> 00:30:49,400
Lauride's your question pornography. You got to become the kind

578
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:55,039
of person worth marrying. That step number one, and then

579
00:30:55,319 --> 00:30:59,279
find somebody to marry and commit to your marriage. Value

580
00:30:59,279 --> 00:31:02,599
it because it's good and God commands it, and guess what,

581
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,680
You'll have a rich, meaningful life. I'll tell you we're

582
00:31:05,759 --> 00:31:07,480
roughly the same age. But my dad said to me

583
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,680
when I was younger. You said, son, some of the

584
00:31:09,759 --> 00:31:13,480
most unhappy people I know are people in their fifties.

585
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,039
They have money, they have fame, they have riches, and

586
00:31:16,039 --> 00:31:18,119
their kids don't want to come home and be with them.

587
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,799
And I remember that, thinking, ah, that must be terrible,

588
00:31:21,079 --> 00:31:22,440
And then it hit me the other day. I was like,

589
00:31:22,759 --> 00:31:26,119
in May, I'm turning fifty, and what I enjoy more

590
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,640
than anything else is my kids. Go hey, Dad, I'm

591
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,480
coming home this weekend and I'm bringing a friend. I

592
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,200
look forward to that as much as anything. So that's

593
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,640
what I want to say to this generation. Follow Jesus,

594
00:31:38,839 --> 00:31:42,839
get married, have kids. That's a meaningful, rich life.

595
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm blessed to have a wife at home, she's

596
00:31:45,279 --> 00:31:49,079
probably watching this, and we have our daughter coming over

597
00:31:49,119 --> 00:31:51,480
for Eastern Oh, and both of ive you were both very,

598
00:31:51,559 --> 00:31:54,960
very excited. So I want to shift over from super

599
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,759
optimistic to I'm not trying to be provocative. But you

600
00:31:57,799 --> 00:32:02,319
said the word shame. Do we need a return of shame?

601
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 3: Oh, that's a great question. I have a colleague of

602
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,480
mine at Biola and he's written a book.

603
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 1: What is the title short?

604
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,119
Speaker 3: I think it's called for Shame.

605
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: Sure, and Greg.

606
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:22,039
Speaker 3: Tanelschoff, he's a philosopher, and he argues that there's an appropriate,

607
00:32:22,279 --> 00:32:24,960
proper place for shame.

608
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: Yep.

609
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,359
Speaker 3: Now, sometimes in our culture, in some ways you could

610
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,640
argue that we've shifted towards an honor shame culture, and

611
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,559
when it comes towards social media, we are so quick

612
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,079
to cancel and shame people. So sometimes we go too

613
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,519
far and don't do it well and really harm people.

614
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,440
On the other hand, there's a lot of things that

615
00:32:44,519 --> 00:32:48,680
people should be ashamed of and shouldn't do, and we

616
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:52,759
should appropriately call him on those kinds of things. So

617
00:32:52,839 --> 00:32:55,599
we could get into specifics, but yes, as a whole,

618
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,640
we do need a response to shame. It's a way

619
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,680
of publicly calling people things they're doing or not doing, saying.

620
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:04,839
Speaker 1: You're better than that. That's not right.

621
00:33:05,279 --> 00:33:09,799
Speaker 3: Shift the direction you're going. We deserve better, you deserve better.

622
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,599
So yeah, I totally think we need a return to

623
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:13,720
proper shame.

624
00:33:13,799 --> 00:33:17,319
Speaker 1: Proper shame. I think of Peter as he was denying

625
00:33:17,319 --> 00:33:20,680
the Lord Jesus. Yeah, and I didn't. I didn't draw

626
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:25,000
this connection. I was listening to is it Crawford the Ritz?

627
00:33:25,039 --> 00:33:26,880
I can't remember who I was listening to a great

628
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,359
sermon on this that you know, Peter's warming his hands

629
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,759
over the charcoal, and the and the woman says, no, no,

630
00:33:31,799 --> 00:33:33,559
you're a Nazarene. You no, I tell you, I don't

631
00:33:33,599 --> 00:33:35,400
know the man. And then that third time they he

632
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,279
denies Christ or warming his hands over the charcoal. You

633
00:33:38,359 --> 00:33:41,279
get this this The gospel tells us that Jesus in

634
00:33:41,359 --> 00:33:45,960
he met eyes, and I'm just imagining Peter looking his

635
00:33:46,079 --> 00:33:49,240
friend and his rabbi and the Lord of the universe

636
00:33:49,279 --> 00:33:56,880
in the eyes shame love. And then later when Jesus

637
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,400
made breakfast for them on the seashore, he was cooking

638
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:04,279
on charcoal. Peter, do you love me? I'm wondering if

639
00:34:04,279 --> 00:34:06,160
Peter was remembering the smell of the charcoal when he's

640
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,159
warming his hands. Lord do you know I love you?

641
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:10,960
And then there's the three times he meets to mars

642
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,840
At and Flao and the other form of love. I'm

643
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:20,440
forgetting on the topic of shame, what is appropriate shame

644
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:23,679
as Christians? Because I'll tell you that the biggest divider

645
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,119
I see right now is on the lies of gender

646
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,679
and sexuality. And I know people in my life who've

647
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:36,760
jettisoned me because I cannot go and say, yes, you're

648
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,960
okay marrying the same sex because is what the Bible says.

649
00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:44,239
I don't want to shame them because I'm broken and

650
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,159
they look at this from a world rely perspective. If

651
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:49,760
you don't affirm, you think I'm a moral failure. No,

652
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,159
I think you're human. So how do we combine shame

653
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,880
and love? How do we speak truth and grace? And

654
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,239
I have an idea I'll share with you because but

655
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,199
I want to hear from you. How do we do that?

656
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:01,559
By way Jesus would do it.

657
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 3: I would love to hear your idea on this. I

658
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,880
don't have it all figured out, but I would say

659
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,960
all of us should live in some tension of that.

660
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,800
And if we're not living in that tension, we're probably

661
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:19,320
speaking too much truth without thinking about kindness and love

662
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,000
and gentleness, or we're compromising truth because we want to

663
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,599
be nice and not offend. So we're having love, but

664
00:35:27,639 --> 00:35:30,519
we're not having truth. Yes, for me, one of the

665
00:35:30,519 --> 00:35:32,440
principles I try to live by is I want to

666
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,760
be as gracious and kind as I can be without

667
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,960
violating scripture or my conscience before the Lord. I want

668
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:42,880
to be as gracious towards somebody as I can be

669
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:48,239
without violating scripture or my conscience before the Lord. Now,

670
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,719
there are times where you cry with somebody, you listen

671
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,400
to somebody, you're gentle, and there's other times where you

672
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,760
just go, that's ridiculous, shame on you. Now, it takes

673
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,960
certain wisdom, it takes a certain relationship, and it takes

674
00:36:03,039 --> 00:36:08,559
a certain just experience to be able to do that well.

675
00:36:09,159 --> 00:36:12,079
And so you know what, how it calls for one

676
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,840
versus the other is going to depend on some of

677
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,920
the particulars. But I was speaking last night here in

678
00:36:18,039 --> 00:36:20,000
real life. There was a ton of young people that

679
00:36:20,039 --> 00:36:23,920
were showing up, and I was speaking on sexuality, and

680
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,760
I was asked a number of questions and I specifically said,

681
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,000
I said, ladies, And probably most of the girls were teenagers,

682
00:36:31,039 --> 00:36:33,440
maybe in their twenties. I said, if a guy tells

683
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,840
you he loves you and he pressures you sexually, he

684
00:36:38,039 --> 00:36:39,079
does not love you.

685
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,599
Speaker 1: Period. I said, you know what, guys, if.

686
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,760
Speaker 3: You pressure a girl sexually, you were not doing what's

687
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,800
best for her, You were thinking about yourself.

688
00:36:49,119 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: Shame on you.

689
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I called him out because of that. Now

690
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,760
one more difference, I would say, and then I really

691
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:57,480
want to hear what you think about this. There is

692
00:36:57,519 --> 00:37:02,679
a difference between Christians with christian and Christians with outsiders.

693
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,480
So Paul talks about this nearly chapters of First Corinthians.

694
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:11,119
What is our role to judge outsiders is different than

695
00:37:11,199 --> 00:37:14,079
fellow Christians. Of course, outsiders have a sense of right

696
00:37:14,119 --> 00:37:16,679
and wrong, this is Romans chapter one. They should know

697
00:37:17,519 --> 00:37:22,119
about morality and sexuality and our bodies from looking at creation.

698
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,719
But my responsibility to a Christian and to call them

699
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,559
out is different and must be done differently than with

700
00:37:30,639 --> 00:37:31,320
an outsider.

701
00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't be in the worlds or the system

702
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:36,960
is Babylon as we would call it sitting here with

703
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,679
Sean McDonnell without understanding that one day that system is

704
00:37:40,679 --> 00:37:42,800
going to fall. But right now we need the system.

705
00:37:43,119 --> 00:37:45,079
We need to be able to work within the system.

706
00:37:45,599 --> 00:37:48,000
My friend Zach Abraham, chief investment offs are bull Or

707
00:37:48,039 --> 00:37:51,679
Capital Management's painfully aware of this. He's a fiduciary running

708
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,440
the investment strategies for Bullwork that he and his wife

709
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,360
started all those years ago. Fiduciary means Zach has to

710
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,519
put our financial interests ahead of his own. At his heart,

711
00:38:01,679 --> 00:38:03,840
Zach's actually a teacher, which is why he does these

712
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,760
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I've been inspired in this pursuit through a couple different verses.

728
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,199
One was an interview I did with a young woman

729
00:38:56,199 --> 00:38:59,960
who had gotten into the pornography business, and she told

730
00:39:00,079 --> 00:39:01,599
they stored this in forem I thinking of this. The

731
00:39:01,679 --> 00:39:04,320
other was the process my wife and daughter and I

732
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:07,840
went through the teen and Family Adolescent Mental Health system,

733
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:12,960
which is a madhouse can only match. And our daughter

734
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,880
face a really specific and a horrible challenge, and God's

735
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,639
done such great work in her life. I'm so proud

736
00:39:19,679 --> 00:39:22,159
of her and so blessed to have a wife who

737
00:39:22,199 --> 00:39:24,800
really helped her along in that way. One of the

738
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,480
things with non Christians, and particularly in this lie of

739
00:39:27,559 --> 00:39:31,440
gender or sexuality, where God has allowed me to bear

740
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,360
fruit in these circumstances, is to remember what I'm speaking

741
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:39,559
to someone now. It's not the special sin, right, same

742
00:39:39,599 --> 00:39:43,760
sex activity, gender denial, not the special sin. I'm broken,

743
00:39:44,679 --> 00:39:47,719
and I've just approached the topic and said, you know,

744
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,159
you and I disagree on something that's really important to you.

745
00:39:51,599 --> 00:39:55,760
And I'm glad that I can still love you and

746
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,519
still be proud of you and the things that you're accomplishing.

747
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,280
It's great. And if you want to talk about why

748
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,679
I disagree with that, I'm happy to do that. But

749
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,079
let's start with the fundamental is that I really love you.

750
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:11,920
And this was informed by this interview we did. This

751
00:40:12,079 --> 00:40:14,639
young woman, very typical story, moves to Los Angeles. She's

752
00:40:14,679 --> 00:40:17,199
a waitress. Someone comes along says, you want to make

753
00:40:17,199 --> 00:40:19,280
a little bit of more money. You can dance and

754
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,159
then you can take some pictures and eventually you can

755
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,000
do some film, and then you can take your clothes off,

756
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,599
and next thing you know, she's doing pornography. And she

757
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,280
gets a lot of money and a lot of drugs

758
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,639
and a lot of travel. And her family a Christian family,

759
00:40:32,679 --> 00:40:34,400
and they're trying to get her to move home, and

760
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,559
she's shaming herself so she won't talk to them. So

761
00:40:38,599 --> 00:40:42,639
she went to a pornography festival in Las Vegas, which

762
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,400
was next door to a It was a big tech event,

763
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:46,880
I fingue it was called I used to go to

764
00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,760
that tech event, but it was strategically located where there's

765
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,480
all these you know, yeah, that makes sense right computer programmers.

766
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:58,000
She's in line signing DVDs and T shirts of men

767
00:40:58,199 --> 00:41:01,480
who want to watch her, and watch her these sexual circumstances.

768
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:04,880
One guy leaves and her her own father standing in

769
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,360
front of her.

770
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:07,320
Speaker 2: Wow.

771
00:41:08,039 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 1: And so first of all her thought process was my gosh,

772
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:15,079
my dad's at a porn festival. The second thought was

773
00:41:15,639 --> 00:41:20,519
my dad. And he said, oh, man, I'm in town

774
00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:23,880
and I would really love to see you. I miss

775
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,800
you and your family misses you. And here's where I'm

776
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,920
staying and this is a key, and I would love

777
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,079
it if you would come and visit. And I know

778
00:41:33,159 --> 00:41:36,840
that you're working, and so I'm going to take off. Wow,

779
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:42,159
that's amazing. So she went. So she went into the hotel.

780
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:49,679
She walked upstairs and she knocked on the door and

781
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,320
he opened the door. I just said, I am not

782
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:58,320
ashamed of you. You were doing the best you could.

783
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:05,599
We love you. We want you to come home. Where's

784
00:42:05,639 --> 00:42:11,480
you come in? And she went in and they visited

785
00:42:13,519 --> 00:42:15,239
and he said, you know, I feel like I've failed

786
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:22,760
you and I'm so glad you're here. And they talked

787
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:24,000
a little bit. He said, was should mind if he

788
00:42:24,039 --> 00:42:27,719
called the family and her little brothers and sisters got

789
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,360
on the speakerphone, what's California Like? They didn't know what

790
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:37,199
she was doing. Will you come home? And she said

791
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:39,679
after I want to go home, but I've got business

792
00:42:39,679 --> 00:42:43,519
to take care of. Me says no, Well, I'll be

793
00:42:43,599 --> 00:42:45,440
in trouble. I've got a bunch of contracts. I'll pay

794
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:50,840
the fees, I'll hire lawyers. Let's leave now. She told

795
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,639
me this story, Sean. She said, if my dad had

796
00:42:53,679 --> 00:42:58,880
said anything else, anything else when you opened the door,

797
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:03,840
like Hi, I'm glad you came, or come in. First

798
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:05,519
words out of his mouth, I'm not ashamed of you.

799
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,519
And I think of the prodigal. That's a great example.

800
00:43:09,599 --> 00:43:13,639
I was going through my mind, the prodigal. Right, what

801
00:43:13,679 --> 00:43:18,519
do you say to people? They've screwed up their families

802
00:43:18,559 --> 00:43:21,920
too much? They're mothers and fathers and they're just screwed

803
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:23,719
it up too bad, and they're hearing this and they're

804
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:25,960
going through a guilt cycle. My kids don't want to

805
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:30,239
come home. I don't have a warm relationship. They're in

806
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:31,360
the thirties. It's too late.

807
00:43:33,159 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 3: What do you say to them, Sean, Same thing as

808
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:42,760
father said, Grace and love and compassion and compare for

809
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,639
them that that is one of the best stories I've

810
00:43:46,679 --> 00:43:49,079
heard in a long time. I kind of want to

811
00:43:49,119 --> 00:43:52,039
like let that one settle in for people and not

812
00:43:52,199 --> 00:43:54,519
move quickly past it.

813
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:56,679
Speaker 1: That is impactful.

814
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 3: And as you were saying that, it got me thinking, really,

815
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,920
what we need is wisdom because she didn't need somebody

816
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,079
to say, what do you do in your embarrassing the family?

817
00:44:08,199 --> 00:44:10,559
She felt shame and she knew it. That was the

818
00:44:10,599 --> 00:44:13,639
wrong response. It was to say I'm not ashamed and

819
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,800
lead with grace and love and own it. I do

820
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:19,760
think there's time, and I'm curious if you would agree

821
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,920
with this. There is a time to say shame on you.

822
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,719
You are the one hurting other people, and people need

823
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:31,360
that prophetic voice at times when you say that, how

824
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,960
you say that, that's the trick to really get into somebody.

825
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,239
I think, for example, that Rosario Butterfield has told and

826
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,880
I can't she told a story. This is in her

827
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:47,000
book about five Big Lies, and I forget some of

828
00:44:47,039 --> 00:44:49,119
the details. People could read it there, but it's about

829
00:44:49,199 --> 00:44:52,840
somebody who is transitioning and said call me by my

830
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:59,079
new name. And this individual was like, no, I won't

831
00:44:59,079 --> 00:45:02,199
do it. I'm not I know you this is not

832
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,880
who you are, and took like a hard stance and

833
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,760
refused to And it was that truth that was spoken

834
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:11,719
into in a relationship that actually shook him out of that.

835
00:45:12,519 --> 00:45:14,719
So it seems to me the wisdom that you're talking

836
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:19,239
about is knowing where somebody's at and whether it's truth

837
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:24,079
or whether it's grace. But for me, I think I

838
00:45:24,079 --> 00:45:27,800
would far more err on the side of grace in

839
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:32,079
somebody's life if I'm not compromising truth and loving them,

840
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,840
Because you know, a gentle word turns away wrath. It

841
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:42,039
is your kindness that leads to repentance. And that father man,

842
00:45:42,119 --> 00:45:43,679
what an example.

843
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:47,559
Speaker 1: Great example. And you know, in the gender confusion world

844
00:45:47,599 --> 00:45:49,239
like ill often have people ask me how do you

845
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,239
fight this? And for me, it's on a tactical sense.

846
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:56,159
It's language. I never used the word transition. I will

847
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,519
just refer to the medical feature of procedures hormones and surgery.

848
00:46:00,079 --> 00:46:03,239
That's what it is. Language has power, it does on

849
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,280
the shaming side, you were asking me what I think

850
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:10,480
of this. You'd mentioned one of the devil's tricks is

851
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,800
to persuade people without knowing they're being persuaded. Sometimes I

852
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:19,000
think to be wise as a serpent, gentle as a dove.

853
00:46:20,639 --> 00:46:23,800
When I was a discipline coordinator at a gang impacted school,

854
00:46:24,199 --> 00:46:29,199
so interesting. We had drive by shootings, we had some

855
00:46:29,599 --> 00:46:34,880
crazy events. We had a ninth grade hit man show

856
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,039
up to shoot a sixth er or sixth grader. We

857
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:43,079
had just wild stuff. And being in that environment, you know,

858
00:46:43,119 --> 00:46:46,400
you you're exposed to things that you begin to understand. Hey,

859
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:51,360
kids like gangs because they have structure. Guess what family leadership, lemanity, identity.

860
00:46:51,679 --> 00:46:55,280
And there was a young boy, he was a black kid,

861
00:46:56,119 --> 00:46:58,840
and he took to calling another He called a woman,

862
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,559
an older black in her nineties. He called her the

863
00:47:01,639 --> 00:47:05,880
N word. Oh, and so there were number of ways

864
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,760
to approach this, and what God led me to was

865
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:10,800
to sit down with him in the library and say, hey,

866
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,119
I understand you love basketball, because yeah, you know, he

867
00:47:14,159 --> 00:47:15,880
was wearing a Michael Jordan jersey. I said, do you

868
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,199
know I work at a sports radio station. I didn't

869
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:19,840
know that. Yeah you know, I used to, and I

870
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,039
work here and I still have friends there. I bet

871
00:47:22,079 --> 00:47:23,920
I could get a letter to Michael Jordan for you,

872
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,719
Because you could, I can try. That's pretty cool. I

873
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:30,119
know people who know him so why don't you write

874
00:47:30,119 --> 00:47:33,000
a letter to Michael Jordan. So this kid wrote this

875
00:47:33,039 --> 00:47:35,199
incredible letter to Michael Jordan. I said, okay, this is

876
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,599
really good. But where it says dear Michael, would you

877
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:47,119
change that to dear n word? And he's a black

878
00:47:47,199 --> 00:47:53,440
kid and seohn he got tears in his eyes at hers.

879
00:47:53,519 --> 00:47:56,519
Isn't it change it back? I'll see if I can

880
00:47:56,559 --> 00:48:01,760
get it to him. But let's go talk to Chance's mom, grandma,

881
00:48:03,559 --> 00:48:07,119
because you use that word, didn't you? And I've seen

882
00:48:07,159 --> 00:48:09,920
these things have fruits in youth ministries. I saw kid

883
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,320
the other day pop off with the effort and he

884
00:48:12,519 --> 00:48:15,679
justdf word and it was a thing. I caught his

885
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:17,760
eye and I just I put my hand on his backage. Yet, listen,

886
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:18,679
how do you feel about saying that?

887
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 2: Church?

888
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 1: It's a great question, not good, it's a great question.

889
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,840
We started this and we're going to wrap up because

890
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:32,320
you're needed. We started this with how Jesus sees the

891
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,480
world as a whole, and we talked about the family,

892
00:48:35,559 --> 00:48:37,800
and we talked about you as an individual. We talked

893
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:42,719
about these lives of Satan. How do you think the

894
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:50,039
Lord sees people who are angry, people who have lost

895
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:53,239
things people who are hearing this, because I'll get this

896
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:55,639
all the time, Sean. You know, Todd, when you talk

897
00:48:55,679 --> 00:48:58,239
about family and wives, I get really sad. I don't

898
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:02,840
have one, and sometimes I feel like you guys are bragging.

899
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:05,400
You know, Todd. You talk about your wife and you

900
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,599
get to go home. I don't have a wife. I'm angry.

901
00:49:08,679 --> 00:49:10,840
And I got a note from a guy today. He's angry.

902
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,559
He's a veteran, and he's depressed, and he's alcoholic, and

903
00:49:13,599 --> 00:49:16,880
his dad committed suicide. He's angry, and I'm doing what

904
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:20,000
I can. But I want to speak into that to

905
00:49:20,079 --> 00:49:22,119
people that will hear this and say, well, Goshean, I'm

906
00:49:22,119 --> 00:49:24,119
really happy for you that you have this great family,

907
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,239
but I'm angry with God, Like, how does God receive

908
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:28,840
our anger?

909
00:49:30,519 --> 00:49:33,039
Speaker 3: Well, I would say to this person, Well, here's what

910
00:49:33,079 --> 00:49:38,559
I would do. Our human natures get defensive when somebody

911
00:49:38,559 --> 00:49:42,480
pops up at us right like this is not my fault,

912
00:49:42,519 --> 00:49:45,400
and take it personally. One of the things I've learned

913
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:49,360
is when somebody gets angry at me, it's usually not

914
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:54,039
about me, and there's often a backstory and I'm the

915
00:49:54,079 --> 00:49:58,159
one that is getting experiencing their anger, so to speak,

916
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:03,320
so I can respond calmly, graciously and just listen and

917
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,440
say something like, you know what, that was not my

918
00:50:06,519 --> 00:50:09,920
intention to come across bragging about my family. I was

919
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,000
asked what I consider the greatest gift, and that's that's

920
00:50:13,039 --> 00:50:17,760
an honest response. Help me understand how that landed for you,

921
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:22,440
because that wasn't my experience. And I actually don't want

922
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,920
to come across that way because that's not my intention.

923
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:28,840
I want to come across kind and gracious to people.

924
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,599
You see the world definitely help me see the world

925
00:50:32,679 --> 00:50:36,079
the way that you do. And this veteran who wrote it,

926
00:50:36,199 --> 00:50:39,639
I just I'd say, man, I can't imagine what it

927
00:50:39,679 --> 00:50:43,280
would be like to have this happen to your family

928
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:46,440
and your father. Like I'm not in your shoes, but

929
00:50:46,559 --> 00:50:49,880
it makes sense that you would feel this way. Tell

930
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:54,760
me about it, help me understand your world. And I

931
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,599
think that shows humility, It shows kindness, you know. Rome

932
00:50:58,679 --> 00:51:02,119
was twelve point fifteen talk about being happy of those

933
00:51:02,159 --> 00:51:05,400
who are happy, sad with those who are sad, Meet

934
00:51:05,519 --> 00:51:09,599
people emotionally where they're at, and I think, you know,

935
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:13,159
God is big enough for our anger. I mean, read

936
00:51:13,199 --> 00:51:16,840
the psalms, my goodness. Sometimes David is like saying stuff.

937
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:19,800
I'm like, this is inspired word of God, and he

938
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:24,079
is broken and he is angry, and I think, you know,

939
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:27,800
sometimes our songs don't reflect that brokenness. They all put

940
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:29,360
a little bow on it. And Jesus loves me and

941
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:32,400
I go to church like the biggest category of psalms

942
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,559
are like complaint psalms. We don't sing those kind of songs.

943
00:51:36,599 --> 00:51:38,880
So we think we can't bring our anger and our

944
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,840
brokenness to God where he can take it, and he

945
00:51:43,039 --> 00:51:45,119
wants us to be honest with him.

946
00:51:46,639 --> 00:51:50,280
Speaker 1: I love that part. I love the whole thing. I

947
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:52,000
was talking to someone who said to me they were

948
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,039
feeling really angry. He said that I just don't want

949
00:51:54,119 --> 00:51:57,239
God to know how angry I am. And I'd let

950
00:51:57,239 --> 00:51:59,840
that sit there for just a second, and I finally said, well,

951
00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:06,239
good luck with that. He knows. Yeah, you know. And

952
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:08,440
when you're in a relationship, and I'm sure that your

953
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,239
wife is a very clear communicator, so you don't have

954
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,039
this dangy. But you come home and you say Stephanie's

955
00:52:13,039 --> 00:52:16,280
something wrong and she goes, no, I'm fine now, but

956
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:20,119
what's wrong? Nothing? And there are those dynamics right where

957
00:52:20,119 --> 00:52:24,480
people do that. No, I'm good. God sees this, and

958
00:52:24,519 --> 00:52:27,079
what an honor to go to the King of the

959
00:52:27,159 --> 00:52:29,920
universe who created you and loved you and say, man,

960
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,039
I am angry, and I could see God going Finally

961
00:52:33,119 --> 00:52:36,599
you think I didn't know this, Finally you trust me enough.

962
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:40,800
I had to learn to listen after I was disciple

963
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:44,480
that real life. Of the biggest difference for me in

964
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:51,280
following the Lord Jesus is fully surrendering. And that's maybe

965
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,920
a topic for another day because it is a long topic.

966
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:57,320
But I would say to people from me, if you're

967
00:52:57,360 --> 00:52:59,639
following and you're not surrendered, if there's any portion of

968
00:52:59,639 --> 00:53:01,360
your life for you've parked that off, Hey, you know

969
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:05,000
what work is work God, I would ask you to

970
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,800
ask God to search your life. Is there any portion

971
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,000
of your life you've not surrendered? And we've had a

972
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,519
link to all the Sean's books in the show notes

973
00:53:11,519 --> 00:53:12,880
and the website.

974
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,119
Speaker 3: And hey, can I jump in here. I know you're

975
00:53:15,119 --> 00:53:15,679
wrapping up.

976
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:18,679
Speaker 1: I'm not going to end this until you do. I

977
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:19,400
just know you have to be.

978
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,320
Speaker 3: Something well, but I do. But my mind was thinking

979
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,559
about what that girl said to you. Say again, what

980
00:53:25,639 --> 00:53:28,760
she said to you. I have something. I'm so angry.

981
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:30,400
I don't want God to know how Did she say that?

982
00:53:30,519 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 1: Yes, she said, I don't want God to know how

983
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,639
angry I am I think, and then pausing and just

984
00:53:35,639 --> 00:53:37,199
sitting there looking at her, saying good luck with that.

985
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 3: I oh, I obviously you can't keep something away from

986
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:43,880
God like theologically, You're right. One of the principles I

987
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:48,039
try to live by is questions, questions, questions, and the

988
00:53:48,079 --> 00:53:50,000
way you started this, one of the first things you

989
00:53:50,039 --> 00:53:53,440
said was I'm curious about this curiosity.

990
00:53:53,639 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 2: Yep.

991
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,320
Speaker 3: In the Gospels and Acts, we have Jesus asking three

992
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:01,440
hundred and forty questions of Paul. There's two hundred and

993
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:05,119
sixty two questions. In the Bible, there's three thousand questions.

994
00:54:05,679 --> 00:54:09,239
The God who made our brains told stories. So I'm

995
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:11,960
going to this whole podcast, I'm gonna remember that story

996
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,480
you told about that girl. At that point you mentioned

997
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,199
that is going to stick with me. That is powerful.

998
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:23,039
Jesus told stories and he asked questions. So somebody says

999
00:54:23,119 --> 00:54:25,599
to me like, I'm so angry, I don't want God

1000
00:54:25,639 --> 00:54:28,239
to know about it. I want to know the backstory.

1001
00:54:28,679 --> 00:54:32,480
I'm curious. I go because there's obviously hurt.

1002
00:54:32,519 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 1: That's there.

1003
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 3: There's obviously, like you pointed out, bad theology. I want

1004
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,960
to know what's underneath it. I want to go tell

1005
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,320
me about that. What makes you think that there's something

1006
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:48,079
we can be so angry about that God wouldn't hear it.

1007
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:52,719
She's got some broken view about God that's affecting the

1008
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,800
way she's praying and thinking about God, just like you're

1009
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:59,639
questioning earlier, how much does God take our anger? There's

1010
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,639
bad theology behind that of people who don't realize I

1011
00:55:02,679 --> 00:55:06,400
can express my anger to God, he can take it.

1012
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:13,000
So I want to encourage viewers and listeners like questions, questions, questions,

1013
00:55:13,559 --> 00:55:15,760
be curious, just like you were today. Ask some of

1014
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:20,280
the best questions, which doesn't surprise me, driven by curiosity.

1015
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,000
And if we Christians did that better, I think that

1016
00:55:24,079 --> 00:55:27,119
would change the way a lot of people think about

1017
00:55:27,159 --> 00:55:29,840
the Christian faith and in some ways be open to

1018
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,639
hearing what we believe. If we loved and listened and

1019
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:34,960
cared first.

1020
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 1: Amen, well said Sean. I know that you are needed elsewhere.

1021
00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:41,800
Thank you for bringing your wife, Stephanie, and appreciate you

1022
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,679
coming in. Thank you for making a way here. And

1023
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:47,000
we'll wrap it up. This is the Todd Herman Show.

1024
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,519
Please go, be well, be strong, be kind, Please make

1025
00:55:50,559 --> 00:55:52,280
every effort to walk in the line of Christ and

1026
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:57,880
happy Resurrection. Sunday