Speaker 1: Well, here's a selfish statement. One of the coolest things
I could to do is talk to people I admire.
Doctor Sean McDowell joins us, we'll get started with the
help of God Almighty.
Speaker 2: But Todd Herman show is disapproved by big pharma technocrats
and tyrone Sabrian ware from the high Mountains of Free America.
Here's the Emerald City Xi Todd Herman.
Speaker 1: Today is to day the Lord has made, and these
are the times to which God has decided we shall live.
And it's really cool to sit here with doctor Sean
mcdoll's wife, Stephanie is off stage. Appreciate you coming in.
Thank you very much, Stephanie. And I have your bio Sean,
and I have the short version and I could read
it and no, I can do that, and we can
do that. I'm very curious, given all that God has
done through you and allows you to experience, how do
you introduce yourself?
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, I don't normally introduce myself now that I
think about it, but I guess I would say I
probably start professionally because that's what people want to know
about me. That I teach at by a university top
school theology I'm an apologist, and then I write books
and I speak, do YouTube. But the more important thing
about me is that I'm a husband and I'm a
dad of three kids.
Speaker 1: That's the part I wanted to hear. That's the part
that I think is important for us men to confess
to and to start with. And I mean, I'll read
the short bio. Sean mcdollis Professor of Apologetics at the
Talbot School of Theology, Biola Universities. Earned two master's degrees
in philosophy and theology, his PhD and apologetics and worldview studies.
He's the author, editor co author of more than twenty books,
including More Than a Carpenter, Chasing Love and The Stalemate,
and The Fate of the Apostles. He's the co host
of Think Biblically podcast, one of the most popular podcasts
in the intersection of faith and culture. Very true that
Sean is one of the top apologetics YouTube channels. He's
an internetional renowned speaker, and he's on the teaching team.
He just said that your home church in southern California.
And I always like to hear people introduce themselves. I
used to ask people at corporate events when our und
corporate events, we have this little exercise I would say
to people, who are you? And what's your name? And
it's not the same answer. And it was always interesting
to see people in corporate America struggle with that who
are you? And that's where I wanted to start with.
Who are we in the eyes of Jesus Christ? Who
let's start with people in general, just the big, big picture.
Who are we in the eyes of the Lord Jesus.
Speaker 3: Well, I do love starting here because I think one
of the biggest issues of our day is what does
it mean to be human?
Speaker 1: Who are we?
Speaker 3: We're wrestling with that question when it comes to sexuality,
What does it mean to be human? What are we
made for? We're wrestling with that question. On artificial intelligence?
Is there something unique about us being human? Will computers
ever be able to think like we are? This is
really one of the most important questions of our day.
So I think biblically, if we start the first thing
is that we are made in the image of God.
The Bible starts by saying in the beginning God created,
So God's the author of the story. He made all
of creation purposefully, and human beings are uniquely made in
God's image. That means we have purpose. It also means
we have value simply because we're human. Now, when you
fast forward to the New Testament, we learn that Jesus
paid the highest price for us by laying down his life.
So you asked about introducing me and how I define myself,
and that's important. But if you really want to know
what somebody cares about what's important to them, look at
what they sacrifice for. What we sacrifice for reveals what
matters most.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 3: The New Testament says Jesus literally laid down his life.
That's the most you can sacrifice for all of us.
So we have a God who took on human flesh
like us to relate to us and then laid down
his life for each one of us. I can't think
of a religion that has a higher value for human
beings and that has done more to be in relationship
with us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a beautiful way to say it. I'm someone
who made the horrible mistake of trying to think my
way to God. Why not a bad mistake? Well, I
guess because you know to think that you can match
intellect with the Lord of the universe and think your
way to understanding Jesus is almost like thinking about someone
or reading about someone without getting to know someone. But
one thing that hit me in my thinking phase is
I think that we are also people that God is
gifted up with something I don't know that we consider
a common blessing, but you talked about AI. I believe
human curiosity is one of the greatest signs that God
loves us, because I think He has given us an
immediate reward for seeking him out. So we do something
like read the Bible. We can get a dopamine hit.
This matters, but it's more sustaining that. Or you can
read about the fact that when the sperm penetrates the egg,
there's a burst of light, and let there be light.
You can read about this commonisment. Maybe this is just me,
but when I get that mental reward, I want more
of this. I see this in the stars, I see
this in our DNA. So I feel like if you
would ask me who am I, I'm a seeker who
finally allowed myself to find God. And I think this
is one of the biggest gifts He's given us. So
God has used you for so many things, and I
want to boil this down from the wide range of
human beings, and we'll get back to groups of humans.
But where do you think God has gifted you most?
And it don't mean this to be pandering, honestly, if
you're to assess this, where do you think God gifted
you most?
Speaker 3: I think probably the best way God gifted me is
with the most remarkable family he could have possibly given me.
Grown up, there were times where I thought, Ah, we're
living in the mountains. I wish we were more near
the beach. Or I love the game of basketball, like
I've just got to go out there and shoot alone again.
I wish there were courts where people play it. I
wish we go to the mall. There was always like
the grass is greener at times. Even though I had
a wonderful childhood growing up, looking back now is like, oh,
my goodness, from where I lived, family that loves me,
the example of who my father is. I kid you
not Todd. There's not another family on the planet I
would have rather grown up in than mine.
Speaker 1: Period.
Speaker 3: So that's the greatest gift that God has given me.
I think your question is a little bit more maybe
my spiritual gifts or not.
Speaker 1: It was just a wide open question, and I wanted
you to answer it with that, and that leads us
into a conversation that I think is one of the
most important conversations we need to have when asked who
we are how does God see us? I've been doing
a series of videos trying to reach young men because
I think there's a lot of false teaching going into
the years of young men right now. Agree and one
of the things I consistently hear is what we're all
children of God. Now, part of that I think is aspirational,
but that is not what the Bible says. That's right.
So going back to this, who are we in God's eyes?
Let's now go through his children versus his human creation.
How does he see us differently? Or does he That's
a great distinction. When people say we're all children of God?
I say, what do you mean by children of God?
If we mean God in a sense is the father
of all creation, and he made us, none of us
would be here and have life and breath and everything
apart from God creating us. So in that sense might say,
broadly speaking, we're children of God. We look at the gospel,
John and Jesus is debating with the Pharisees and he
calls them sons of the Devil.
Speaker 3: Wow, right, which raises other questions about you know, Jesus
just telling stories and being nice. I mean, he called
them out for their hypocrisy, called him sons the devil.
So it's kind of like, yes, God is the creation
of all of us, but we are adopted into the
Kingdom of God and the Family of God of course
by faith through grace in Jesus Christ. So I think
in some ways this is what Jesus was doing when
they talk about in Mark chapter three. They're like, your
father and your mother and your brother are outside wanting you,
and in that culture, your identity came primarily from your
biological family. So like the term Johnson comes from son
of John Donaldson, son of Donald, you were the son
of your father. So Jesus was supposed to stop everything
he's doing, go out to his biological family, and he's like, uh, no,
those who do the will of God are my mother
and brother. You know, it's sister my family. He's drawing
new family lines, saying those who follow the will of
the Lord are in my family, which implies that those
who don't understand who I am are not in the
family of God. So Jesus gave us a pretty serious
call to repent from our sins and choose to be
adopted into the family of God.
Speaker 1: You shared with me about your family, shared a little
bit about mine. Is is I was blessed. My dad was.
I had a master's in social work and spent his
life helping kids. And my mom is a master's degree
in teaching and master's degree in early childhood development. Very
good family. I don't know that I was a blessed
like you were. And I don't mean to denigrate my parents.
My father's passed on and by the way, came to
Jesus in the hospital through a pot smoking cowboy pastor.
It I'm just amazing. And the pot smoking cowboy pastor
closes the deal. Well I'm not there. Oh, you're such
a good story. What a day to get to hang
out with someone like Sean McDowell. It's really cool. This
is a cool job when you get to do this.
Earlier today, I was hanging out with a guy who
is a world rank strong man, much younger guy than me,
and man, he had a bad injury recently. He was
doing a bench press on the floor a floor press
and has hips way up and he was doing three
hundred and twenty five pounds for reps and then boom
tech pair or peck tear tore his left pack. Now
he knows what he's doing, and he knows that I
unload something like that and it didn't crush him. Very
fortunate that he was on the floor when he did this.
So guess what I said to him? Bad luck? I said, look, man,
I'm gonna tell you you got to go get the
stem cells I got in Mexico. He has a competition
coming up in June, and he's a world rank strong man.
And what I'm telling him is, look, I heard it
my shoulder tear. He hurt his tear. Guy who was
spotting me when my shoulder tore, he actually heard it.
I'm going to bet if someone had been spotting my
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dot Healthcare. But I recently, in the past two years,
the family I lived with, a family who lived out
the word of Jesus. And you know, they told me Sean,
we were driving around Idaho and Gary, who is the father,
said well, we consider you a fourth son, and Karen said,
truly we do. That felt earned. We can't earn the
love of Jesus. Yeah, but I'd felt that, I'd felt
like family. And so I'm thinking about inner culture today,
and I'm thinking about family, and I'm watching culturally institutions shaken.
People we were talking about, you know, institutions, people lacking
faith in institutions. I'm watching an attack on the family, Sean.
And I'm seeing phrases come up, like have you heard
the phrase detachment broker.
Speaker 3: I've heard it, but I don't know, Zach what it means.
You have to explain it.
Speaker 1: So there's a woman named Alison Pugh is writing about
therapists and teachers who are literally in the business of
telling children and adult children and teens you should jettison
your parents and your sister and your brother. Oh man.
And I'm torn in this spiritually. Jesus said, I've not
come to you like with the divide. You are exposed
to a lot more in this spiritual world than I am.
And are you seeing anything similar an attack on the family.
Speaker 3: That's an interesting angle. And let me say one thing.
You got me thinking in the back of my mind
that he did say, you know, Jesus like hate your
brother and mother, You know and follow me, and of
course I think he's using hyperboles to say that our
allegiance to Christ is number one. But I also think
of Jesus on the cross and he says to John
about his mother. He says, this is your mother, and
you see this deep love and affection that there's something
about his mother there that is godly as well. Those
don't contradict. We just have to hold them in a
little bit of tension that's there. So I think God
does want us. I mean, you just read through some
of the epistles and it's like the characteristic for a
deacon or church leader is the kind of family man
that you are. So those are not at odds. They're
just important to keep that tension in place. I've been
thinking about recently, and it's interesting you asked me this,
what are Satan's biggest lies? Because Satan John Aight is
a murderer and he's a liar. I think number one
is always on the gospel to twist the gospel, corrupt
the gospel. I came up with this talk at my
home church and people and asked me to give it
everywhere about nine false gospels in the church and outside
of the church. Some are obvious and some are very subtle.
So the first thing Satan's going to want to lie
about is the means of salvation and eternal life. Then
I think, well, what's after that? I think very close
second is going to be the family, because the family
is God's desire, and we see it in gen It's
just chapter one. That's where we get faith passed on.
That's where we get modeled what it means to follow
the Lord. And my wife and I were talking about
my son and just reflecting, I mean so many things
without me telling him to. He loves some of the
things that I love. He does some of the things
that I do, and I just think, Wow, he has
learned from his father, modeling this like I learned from
my father. And I was reading with my students in
a class at BIO this week the Communist Manifesto. I've
read it many times and right in there, one of
the top principles is abolish the family, get rid of it,
and it talks about we need top down state education.
And I asked my students, I'm like, why would they
do that? And they're like, because the family's going to
get in the way of the authority of the state.
So we need to get rid of the family. And
I think when if Satan's effective at that, it destroys
our joy, it destroys our witness to the wider world.
So I do think some Satan's most some of his
greatest energy is to destroy the family itself. And the
way you mentioned is probably one growing way amongst many
that were seeing that emerge today.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned the Mcomy's manifesto, and I'm sure you've
read about Carmax's fault from faith some Yeah. I mean,
so he was. He grew up Lutheran and developed a
hatred for the Lord Jesus, wrote poetry about how he
would stomp on the word of the Lord Jesus, how
his ideas would overcome that of the Lord Jesus. Wow,
I mean he was vriiantly anti Christ. I think there
are full frontal assaults. I think detachment brokering is a
full frontal assault. I think that parents who have had
their kids taken away because the parents refuse to agree
with the lies of gender ideology, that's a full frontal assault.
We're north Idaho. I think that one of the sneakest
things the devil does came about. I had a conversation
with a young guy several years ago. Was his girlfriend
had broken up with him, first time that ever happened,
and you know, he was fifteen, and they were going
to be married forever. And I said, yeah, but that's
not really it. That's not really why you're sad. He goes, no,
my dog died. Gosh, that's hard.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I went to the backyard and we live in
up in the mountains, and it's really rough ground up there,
and my mom and my sister out there trying to
use a pickaxe to dig this hole, and they couldn't
dig this hole. And I took over and I buried
our dog. And my dad he works in California because
he makes a ton more money, like twice as much money,
and he only comes here a couple of times a month.
I said, well, they're married. He goes, yeah, they're married.
But I barely see him. My dad came home, said
show me where he buried the dog, and I showed him.
My dad said, that's a garbage hole. That's not deep enough.
You screwed this up a And I said to my dad,
you never even taught me how to dig a hole,
And my dad said to me, do you eat? We
have three houses in a lake house. I don't have
time to teach you how to dig holes. You should
know that. And my response, you know, as a youth leader,
is hey, gosh, that's hard to hear. And you know,
I can see that your father is a hard worker.
He really honors his role as a provider, and I
want us to honor that. But that really hurt you,
didn't it. That man has I think taken what I
consider a sneaky lie the role of men in the home.
I asked my boys this all the time. We consistently
have to reteach it. What is the role of a
Christian man? It is not just providing. What is it?
What does Jesus expect of as Christian men?
Speaker 3: That's a great question. You're right when you said a
sneaky lie. Those are the most powerful conniving lies. I
took a class at Bioll's, one of my favorite classes.
I was a calm major, and they talked about how
the most effective form of persuasion is when you don't
even know you're being persuaded. So when satany subtle lies
in this case, while I'm providing financially, you have safety
and you have security. Check the box of.
Speaker 1: Being a dad.
Speaker 3: Well, that's a conniving lie, because that's not what this
young man needed. I mean, I grow I think about
my childhood, grown up, and my dad was just amazing.
He's my hero. He's still alive, and he would travel
around and he would debate and write books. And all
these people are like, what's it like to me Josh
mcdell's kid, And they had this idea from the outside,
and to me, it's like, you know what, the times
we just go shoot hoops, the times you go to movie,
we'd send a jacuzzi and flow popcorn around. It was
actually those relational moments that are as special, if not
more so. That's what gives you identity, That's what gives
you security, that's what just helps you feel loved. And
that's what this young man was missing. And somehow this
father had justified in his own mind that that was okay.
He checked the box, and that kid is hurting because
of it. So I think, I mean, what's a role
as a husband, more than anything is to love my wife.
My dad said to me many times, he said, the
greatest thing you can do for your kids is to
love their mom. And most of us think, well, love
your kids is number one. You go, No, your first
task is to love their mom. That's where their security
will come from, and of course that should be downstream.
How do I love their mom? Well, we love their mom.
Ephesians five about Jesus. You know, tell or Paul says
to love husbands. Love your wives the way Christ loves
the church sacrificially and with service and with care. So
love God first, love your spouse. Spend time with your kids.
I mean, it's really not that hard taught. It's really not.
We almost have to talk ourselves out of it rather
than just knowing what kids need.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's well said. Sean. You're familiar with
the phrase tradwife. I am. Yeah.
Speaker 3: It's taking. It's gotten a little bit of a steam
and attention today, hasn't it. Am.
Speaker 1: I find myself again thinking about the lies as Satan tells,
and they're sort of trad wives who somehow are always
perfectly made up in the right dress and making the
pies and they never get dirty, et cetera. But I
see this, I see another sneaky lie, because there's the
full frontal assault of well you don't need men, and
you don't need marriage, and you can be same sex
attracted and just as happy, and you can adopt kids,
and you can you can manufacture families this way. But
then there's this very very sneaky lie of in this case,
I'll go back to this boy, who do you think
put him in youth group?
Speaker 3: Mom?
Speaker 1: And I think there's this sneaky lie. Well, the father's
not doing it, so mom's gonna step in. And of
course I guess we want the kids at youth group, right, sure, yeah,
that's great. And then suddenly, like I look at the
interactions in youth group, nine times out of ten, if
I'm getting a text message, it's from a mom, and
if it's a questions from a mom, and I want
parental involvement. But I think that one of these sneaky
lies is that moms can be dads. And what do
you think the lies that Satan tells mothers young women are.
Speaker 3: Oh gosh, I'd love to ask my wife's some civiate
that one's right here.
Speaker 1: I mean, we could bring her in.
Speaker 3: She would, she would give better answer, and I would
When you said, you know that moms can be dads,
I wonder if the lie behind that is at much
as much that dads are not responsible for their kids'
spiritual lives.
Speaker 1: That's mom's job to do this.
Speaker 3: I actually think more men feel like my wife will
do this, then wives feel like I can be dad.
That would be my suspicion, and I think that's a
huge mistake.
Speaker 1: And here's why.
Speaker 3: The largest study I'm aware of of faith transmission it
was four generations great grandparents, grandparents, parents' kids, thirty five years,
thirty five hundred people by a professor at USC named
Verne Benkston, and he published his book called Faith in
Families with Oxford Press, and they were studying what factors
are necessary for faith transmission. And they said, for example,
grandparents now are playing a more significant role in the past,
which is great. People are living longer, people are more mobile,
they said, divorce rocks of kid's faith. On a positive side.
Number one factor of faith transmission is a quote, and
this is an academic study, a quote warm relationship with
the father statistically speaking, number one. So women may feel
that they can be or need to be husbands, and
that's only because men are failing to be the kind
of husbands that they need to be loving their spouses
and modeling and teaching their kids spiritually. So if more
men were doing that, I guarantee you the women would
be thrilled and excited and supportive and not feeling like
they have to carry that weight.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Sean McDow is certainly no stranger to doing the right
thing for the right reason. We started years ago working
with a company called Alan Soaps. And this company exists
because my friend John, who died about five about five
weeks ago, went to the Lord Jesus he had a
son named Alan, and they knew right away he wasn't
going to be a typical physically neurotypical. In fact, the
doctor said to Tina and John, why don't you let
us kill your son for us, for you? And they said,
absolutely not. This is our little boy and he's going
to grow up and he's going to have a life.
And they said, but no quality of life. They were wrong.
Alan is thirteen. He's been through eighteen operations, and he
doesn't move like other kids. He's effectively nonverbal, but he
invents the soaps at Alan Soaps. Since John died, we've
taken a break because Tina's had a lot to do
she doesn't need to be weeding with the soap company. Now,
we're trying to help her bring it back to prominence.
John loved this company. The boys Alan and his brother Ian,
who's also impacted by autism, they love this company. The
soap is made in America by a family with three
generations of soap making expertise. There's no chemicals in it.
It's one hundred percent natural. It's the best soap in
the world. And we put together a package the four
original fragrances that got this company off the ground, plus
a cycle pouch for under twenty nine dollars. All I
have to do is go to Alan Soaps dot com
slash todd, use promo code Todd to get this special
deal in honor of John Caldwell, my friend who's gone
to the Lord. It's Allan Soaps dot com slash todd,
promo code Todd. Yeah. This beautifully said. And it's also
scary too, because it's easy, but it's also easy to
not do, and it's easy to not realize that. It's
easy to fail to realize that you're falling down on
that front. And what are the great signs you see?
I'll tell you one of the great signs I see
because I've been kind of mister downer on this asking
kind of down questions. Man, Sean, I see young guys
who want to ask me twenty or thirty questions a
night about faith. I love that. I see young men
love that. This is crazy. I don't remember doing this
when I was fifteen or sixteen. I just took some
guys from the youth group out for a workout and
they came to one of the gyms I go to,
and they were there ten minutes early, ready to rock,
ready to rock. But they came up to me and
they extended their arms wide and they said, we love
you and thank you. One of the boys said, I
know I'm taking you away from your wife and your family.
Thank you for taking this time. We love you. I
see that. I see young men saying to me, but
how do we stop porn? We do want to stop,
but Todd, how how do we find godly wives? We
want to do these things.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 1: I see the Lord Jesus working in these ways, and
I see young men being changed, and I get to
watch this happen. And you touch a lot more people
than I do spiritually. So where do you see the
face of God and the progress and the excitements.
Speaker 3: I so I love that question. I don't know about
me have an impact on more young people. We're in
our lanes and God's doing this and using both of
us in different ways. So I would say a couple
things come to mind. There's been there's been a lot
of talk recently. Is there a revival? Is there restoration faith?
Is there an interspiritually And there's been some studies that
have come out and said we haven't officially seen a
revival in the numbers, although some things indicate, like Bible
sales are up, so there's enough there to kind of
make us think something's going on. But it's not this
definitive upswing. But I can just tell you experientially, like
what you said, everywhere I go, I get so many
questions about faith with a kind of vulnerability and openness
that my generation didn't ask. And some of this might
just be the nature of how the Internet has shifted.
The conversation is kind of in your face. People can
talk about anything. Some of what used to be shameful
is not shameful anymore. So there's a downside to that,
but the positive side is there's just a real openness
and a willingness. And the reason they're coming to you
is I think there's so many in this generation that
just want and need fathers, and your father type figures
is what they're yearning for. So I'm encouraged whenever I
speak to young people anybody who says this generation doesn't
care about the Gospel, they don't care about spiritual things,
they're not asking questions, I'm like, follow me around for
a week. Everywhere I go, I'm getting tough questions and
I'm interacted with young people, and so that's encouraging. One
thing I would say, related to something you said earlier,
here's one of the lies that this generation faces. And
one of the things I find myself saying more and
more and more is that there's kind of a mantra
I think for women and for young men that says,
have your career, get through college, live out your twenties,
and then you don't have to get married to be happy,
but maybe get married, maybe have kids. Do that when
you're maybe thirties or forties. It's something you do later on.
There's a fascinating new study by a sociologist at University
of Virginia named Bradley Wilcox. He's Catholic, and he's published
in a book called Get Married, and he shows just
a great title. He says, the studies are actually very
clear a few things. Number one is that those who
get married, especially men, make more than those who don't.
So you make more than a couple who's living together
and not married, and you make more than the equivalent
of somebody else who's single. So getting married shifts your focus,
it shifts your work ethic, and you actually be become
more productive. But more importantly, they said, people who are
married men and women as a whole, are significantly happier
than those who are not, significantly happier. In fact, he
argues that whether you're married or not is the single
most definitive predictor of happiness. And by the way, he says,
even in their twenties, people who get married younger are
happier in their twenties than those who don't. And it's
for this generation they think, if I can have certain
things and have certain experiences and build my name, I'll
be happy. What marriage does is like no, Actually, happiness
is about sacrifice. It's about building something with somebody else.
And so I find myself saying to young men. First off,
Lauride's your question pornography. You got to become the kind
of person worth marrying. That step number one, and then
find somebody to marry and commit to your marriage. Value
it because it's good and God commands it, and guess what,
You'll have a rich, meaningful life. I'll tell you we're
roughly the same age. But my dad said to me
when I was younger. You said, son, some of the
most unhappy people I know are people in their fifties.
They have money, they have fame, they have riches, and
their kids don't want to come home and be with them.
And I remember that, thinking, ah, that must be terrible,
And then it hit me the other day. I was like,
in May, I'm turning fifty, and what I enjoy more
than anything else is my kids. Go hey, Dad, I'm
coming home this weekend and I'm bringing a friend. I
look forward to that as much as anything. So that's
what I want to say to this generation. Follow Jesus,
get married, have kids. That's a meaningful, rich life.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I'm blessed to have a wife at home, she's
probably watching this, and we have our daughter coming over
for Eastern Oh, and both of ive you were both very,
very excited. So I want to shift over from super
optimistic to I'm not trying to be provocative. But you
said the word shame. Do we need a return of shame?
Speaker 3: Oh, that's a great question. I have a colleague of
mine at Biola and he's written a book.
Speaker 1: What is the title short?
Speaker 3: I think it's called for Shame.
Speaker 1: Sure, and Greg.
Speaker 3: Tanelschoff, he's a philosopher, and he argues that there's an appropriate,
proper place for shame.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 3: Now, sometimes in our culture, in some ways you could
argue that we've shifted towards an honor shame culture, and
when it comes towards social media, we are so quick
to cancel and shame people. So sometimes we go too
far and don't do it well and really harm people.
On the other hand, there's a lot of things that
people should be ashamed of and shouldn't do, and we
should appropriately call him on those kinds of things. So
we could get into specifics, but yes, as a whole,
we do need a response to shame. It's a way
of publicly calling people things they're doing or not doing, saying.
Speaker 1: You're better than that. That's not right.
Speaker 3: Shift the direction you're going. We deserve better, you deserve better.
So yeah, I totally think we need a return to
proper shame.
Speaker 1: Proper shame. I think of Peter as he was denying
the Lord Jesus. Yeah, and I didn't. I didn't draw
this connection. I was listening to is it Crawford the Ritz?
I can't remember who I was listening to a great
sermon on this that you know, Peter's warming his hands
over the charcoal, and the and the woman says, no, no,
you're a Nazarene. You no, I tell you, I don't
know the man. And then that third time they he
denies Christ or warming his hands over the charcoal. You
get this this The gospel tells us that Jesus in
he met eyes, and I'm just imagining Peter looking his
friend and his rabbi and the Lord of the universe
in the eyes shame love. And then later when Jesus
made breakfast for them on the seashore, he was cooking
on charcoal. Peter, do you love me? I'm wondering if
Peter was remembering the smell of the charcoal when he's
warming his hands. Lord do you know I love you?
And then there's the three times he meets to mars
At and Flao and the other form of love. I'm
forgetting on the topic of shame, what is appropriate shame
as Christians? Because I'll tell you that the biggest divider
I see right now is on the lies of gender
and sexuality. And I know people in my life who've
jettisoned me because I cannot go and say, yes, you're
okay marrying the same sex because is what the Bible says.
I don't want to shame them because I'm broken and
they look at this from a world rely perspective. If
you don't affirm, you think I'm a moral failure. No,
I think you're human. So how do we combine shame
and love? How do we speak truth and grace? And
I have an idea I'll share with you because but
I want to hear from you. How do we do that?
By way Jesus would do it.
Speaker 3: I would love to hear your idea on this. I
don't have it all figured out, but I would say
all of us should live in some tension of that.
And if we're not living in that tension, we're probably
speaking too much truth without thinking about kindness and love
and gentleness, or we're compromising truth because we want to
be nice and not offend. So we're having love, but
we're not having truth. Yes, for me, one of the
principles I try to live by is I want to
be as gracious and kind as I can be without
violating scripture or my conscience before the Lord. I want
to be as gracious towards somebody as I can be
without violating scripture or my conscience before the Lord. Now,
there are times where you cry with somebody, you listen
to somebody, you're gentle, and there's other times where you
just go, that's ridiculous, shame on you. Now, it takes
certain wisdom, it takes a certain relationship, and it takes
a certain just experience to be able to do that well.
And so you know what, how it calls for one
versus the other is going to depend on some of
the particulars. But I was speaking last night here in
real life. There was a ton of young people that
were showing up, and I was speaking on sexuality, and
I was asked a number of questions and I specifically said,
I said, ladies, And probably most of the girls were teenagers,
maybe in their twenties. I said, if a guy tells
you he loves you and he pressures you sexually, he
does not love you.
Speaker 1: Period. I said, you know what, guys, if.
Speaker 3: You pressure a girl sexually, you were not doing what's
best for her, You were thinking about yourself.
Speaker 1: Shame on you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I called him out because of that. Now
one more difference, I would say, and then I really
want to hear what you think about this. There is
a difference between Christians with christian and Christians with outsiders.
So Paul talks about this nearly chapters of First Corinthians.
What is our role to judge outsiders is different than
fellow Christians. Of course, outsiders have a sense of right
and wrong, this is Romans chapter one. They should know
about morality and sexuality and our bodies from looking at creation.
But my responsibility to a Christian and to call them
out is different and must be done differently than with
an outsider.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't be in the worlds or the system
is Babylon as we would call it sitting here with
Sean McDonnell without understanding that one day that system is
going to fall. But right now we need the system.
We need to be able to work within the system.
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I've been inspired in this pursuit through a couple different verses.
One was an interview I did with a young woman
who had gotten into the pornography business, and she told
they stored this in forem I thinking of this. The
other was the process my wife and daughter and I
went through the teen and Family Adolescent Mental Health system,
which is a madhouse can only match. And our daughter
face a really specific and a horrible challenge, and God's
done such great work in her life. I'm so proud
of her and so blessed to have a wife who
really helped her along in that way. One of the
things with non Christians, and particularly in this lie of
gender or sexuality, where God has allowed me to bear
fruit in these circumstances, is to remember what I'm speaking
to someone now. It's not the special sin, right, same
sex activity, gender denial, not the special sin. I'm broken,
and I've just approached the topic and said, you know,
you and I disagree on something that's really important to you.
And I'm glad that I can still love you and
still be proud of you and the things that you're accomplishing.
It's great. And if you want to talk about why
I disagree with that, I'm happy to do that. But
let's start with the fundamental is that I really love you.
And this was informed by this interview we did. This
young woman, very typical story, moves to Los Angeles. She's
a waitress. Someone comes along says, you want to make
a little bit of more money. You can dance and
then you can take some pictures and eventually you can
do some film, and then you can take your clothes off,
and next thing you know, she's doing pornography. And she
gets a lot of money and a lot of drugs
and a lot of travel. And her family a Christian family,
and they're trying to get her to move home, and
she's shaming herself so she won't talk to them. So
she went to a pornography festival in Las Vegas, which
was next door to a It was a big tech event,
I fingue it was called I used to go to
that tech event, but it was strategically located where there's
all these you know, yeah, that makes sense right computer programmers.
She's in line signing DVDs and T shirts of men
who want to watch her, and watch her these sexual circumstances.
One guy leaves and her her own father standing in
front of her.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: And so first of all her thought process was my gosh,
my dad's at a porn festival. The second thought was
my dad. And he said, oh, man, I'm in town
and I would really love to see you. I miss
you and your family misses you. And here's where I'm
staying and this is a key, and I would love
it if you would come and visit. And I know
that you're working, and so I'm going to take off. Wow,
that's amazing. So she went. So she went into the hotel.
She walked upstairs and she knocked on the door and
he opened the door. I just said, I am not
ashamed of you. You were doing the best you could.
We love you. We want you to come home. Where's
you come in? And she went in and they visited
and he said, you know, I feel like I've failed
you and I'm so glad you're here. And they talked
a little bit. He said, was should mind if he
called the family and her little brothers and sisters got
on the speakerphone, what's California Like? They didn't know what
she was doing. Will you come home? And she said
after I want to go home, but I've got business
to take care of. Me says no, Well, I'll be
in trouble. I've got a bunch of contracts. I'll pay
the fees, I'll hire lawyers. Let's leave now. She told
me this story, Sean. She said, if my dad had
said anything else, anything else when you opened the door,
like Hi, I'm glad you came, or come in. First
words out of his mouth, I'm not ashamed of you.
And I think of the prodigal. That's a great example.
I was going through my mind, the prodigal. Right, what
do you say to people? They've screwed up their families
too much? They're mothers and fathers and they're just screwed
it up too bad, and they're hearing this and they're
going through a guilt cycle. My kids don't want to
come home. I don't have a warm relationship. They're in
the thirties. It's too late.
Speaker 3: What do you say to them, Sean, Same thing as
father said, Grace and love and compassion and compare for
them that that is one of the best stories I've
heard in a long time. I kind of want to
like let that one settle in for people and not
move quickly past it.
Speaker 1: That is impactful.
Speaker 3: And as you were saying that, it got me thinking, really,
what we need is wisdom because she didn't need somebody
to say, what do you do in your embarrassing the family?
She felt shame and she knew it. That was the
wrong response. It was to say I'm not ashamed and
lead with grace and love and own it. I do
think there's time, and I'm curious if you would agree
with this. There is a time to say shame on you.
You are the one hurting other people, and people need
that prophetic voice at times when you say that, how
you say that, that's the trick to really get into somebody.
I think, for example, that Rosario Butterfield has told and
I can't she told a story. This is in her
book about five Big Lies, and I forget some of
the details. People could read it there, but it's about
somebody who is transitioning and said call me by my
new name. And this individual was like, no, I won't
do it. I'm not I know you this is not
who you are, and took like a hard stance and
refused to And it was that truth that was spoken
into in a relationship that actually shook him out of that.
So it seems to me the wisdom that you're talking
about is knowing where somebody's at and whether it's truth
or whether it's grace. But for me, I think I
would far more err on the side of grace in
somebody's life if I'm not compromising truth and loving them,
Because you know, a gentle word turns away wrath. It
is your kindness that leads to repentance. And that father man,
what an example.
Speaker 1: Great example. And you know, in the gender confusion world
like ill often have people ask me how do you
fight this? And for me, it's on a tactical sense.
It's language. I never used the word transition. I will
just refer to the medical feature of procedures hormones and surgery.
That's what it is. Language has power, it does on
the shaming side, you were asking me what I think
of this. You'd mentioned one of the devil's tricks is
to persuade people without knowing they're being persuaded. Sometimes I
think to be wise as a serpent, gentle as a dove.
When I was a discipline coordinator at a gang impacted school,
so interesting. We had drive by shootings, we had some
crazy events. We had a ninth grade hit man show
up to shoot a sixth er or sixth grader. We
had just wild stuff. And being in that environment, you know,
you you're exposed to things that you begin to understand. Hey,
kids like gangs because they have structure. Guess what family leadership, lemanity, identity.
And there was a young boy, he was a black kid,
and he took to calling another He called a woman,
an older black in her nineties. He called her the
N word. Oh, and so there were number of ways
to approach this, and what God led me to was
to sit down with him in the library and say, hey,
I understand you love basketball, because yeah, you know, he
was wearing a Michael Jordan jersey. I said, do you
know I work at a sports radio station. I didn't
know that. Yeah you know, I used to, and I
work here and I still have friends there. I bet
I could get a letter to Michael Jordan for you,
Because you could, I can try. That's pretty cool. I
know people who know him so why don't you write
a letter to Michael Jordan. So this kid wrote this
incredible letter to Michael Jordan. I said, okay, this is
really good. But where it says dear Michael, would you
change that to dear n word? And he's a black
kid and seohn he got tears in his eyes at hers.
Isn't it change it back? I'll see if I can
get it to him. But let's go talk to Chance's mom, grandma,
because you use that word, didn't you? And I've seen
these things have fruits in youth ministries. I saw kid
the other day pop off with the effort and he
justdf word and it was a thing. I caught his
eye and I just I put my hand on his backage. Yet, listen,
how do you feel about saying that?
Speaker 2: Church?
Speaker 1: It's a great question, not good, it's a great question.
We started this and we're going to wrap up because
you're needed. We started this with how Jesus sees the
world as a whole, and we talked about the family,
and we talked about you as an individual. We talked
about these lives of Satan. How do you think the
Lord sees people who are angry, people who have lost
things people who are hearing this, because I'll get this
all the time, Sean. You know, Todd, when you talk
about family and wives, I get really sad. I don't
have one, and sometimes I feel like you guys are bragging.
You know, Todd. You talk about your wife and you
get to go home. I don't have a wife. I'm angry.
And I got a note from a guy today. He's angry.
He's a veteran, and he's depressed, and he's alcoholic, and
his dad committed suicide. He's angry, and I'm doing what
I can. But I want to speak into that to
people that will hear this and say, well, Goshean, I'm
really happy for you that you have this great family,
but I'm angry with God, Like, how does God receive
our anger?
Speaker 3: Well, I would say to this person, Well, here's what
I would do. Our human natures get defensive when somebody
pops up at us right like this is not my fault,
and take it personally. One of the things I've learned
is when somebody gets angry at me, it's usually not
about me, and there's often a backstory and I'm the
one that is getting experiencing their anger, so to speak,
so I can respond calmly, graciously and just listen and
say something like, you know what, that was not my
intention to come across bragging about my family. I was
asked what I consider the greatest gift, and that's that's
an honest response. Help me understand how that landed for you,
because that wasn't my experience. And I actually don't want
to come across that way because that's not my intention.
I want to come across kind and gracious to people.
You see the world definitely help me see the world
the way that you do. And this veteran who wrote it,
I just I'd say, man, I can't imagine what it
would be like to have this happen to your family
and your father. Like I'm not in your shoes, but
it makes sense that you would feel this way. Tell
me about it, help me understand your world. And I
think that shows humility, It shows kindness, you know. Rome
was twelve point fifteen talk about being happy of those
who are happy, sad with those who are sad, Meet
people emotionally where they're at, and I think, you know,
God is big enough for our anger. I mean, read
the psalms, my goodness. Sometimes David is like saying stuff.
I'm like, this is inspired word of God, and he
is broken and he is angry, and I think, you know,
sometimes our songs don't reflect that brokenness. They all put
a little bow on it. And Jesus loves me and
I go to church like the biggest category of psalms
are like complaint psalms. We don't sing those kind of songs.
So we think we can't bring our anger and our
brokenness to God where he can take it, and he
wants us to be honest with him.
Speaker 1: I love that part. I love the whole thing. I
was talking to someone who said to me they were
feeling really angry. He said that I just don't want
God to know how angry I am. And I'd let
that sit there for just a second, and I finally said, well,
good luck with that. He knows. Yeah, you know. And
when you're in a relationship, and I'm sure that your
wife is a very clear communicator, so you don't have
this dangy. But you come home and you say Stephanie's
something wrong and she goes, no, I'm fine now, but
what's wrong? Nothing? And there are those dynamics right where
people do that. No, I'm good. God sees this, and
what an honor to go to the King of the
universe who created you and loved you and say, man,
I am angry, and I could see God going Finally
you think I didn't know this, Finally you trust me enough.
I had to learn to listen after I was disciple
that real life. Of the biggest difference for me in
following the Lord Jesus is fully surrendering. And that's maybe
a topic for another day because it is a long topic.
But I would say to people from me, if you're
following and you're not surrendered, if there's any portion of
your life for you've parked that off, Hey, you know
what work is work God, I would ask you to
ask God to search your life. Is there any portion
of your life you've not surrendered? And we've had a
link to all the Sean's books in the show notes
and the website.
Speaker 3: And hey, can I jump in here. I know you're
wrapping up.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to end this until you do. I
just know you have to be.
Speaker 3: Something well, but I do. But my mind was thinking
about what that girl said to you. Say again, what
she said to you. I have something. I'm so angry.
I don't want God to know how Did she say that?
Speaker 1: Yes, she said, I don't want God to know how
angry I am I think, and then pausing and just
sitting there looking at her, saying good luck with that.
Speaker 3: I oh, I obviously you can't keep something away from
God like theologically, You're right. One of the principles I
try to live by is questions, questions, questions, and the
way you started this, one of the first things you
said was I'm curious about this curiosity.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 3: In the Gospels and Acts, we have Jesus asking three
hundred and forty questions of Paul. There's two hundred and
sixty two questions. In the Bible, there's three thousand questions.
The God who made our brains told stories. So I'm
going to this whole podcast, I'm gonna remember that story
you told about that girl. At that point you mentioned
that is going to stick with me. That is powerful.
Jesus told stories and he asked questions. So somebody says
to me like, I'm so angry, I don't want God
to know about it. I want to know the backstory.
I'm curious. I go because there's obviously hurt.
Speaker 1: That's there.
Speaker 3: There's obviously, like you pointed out, bad theology. I want
to know what's underneath it. I want to go tell
me about that. What makes you think that there's something
we can be so angry about that God wouldn't hear it.
She's got some broken view about God that's affecting the
way she's praying and thinking about God, just like you're
questioning earlier, how much does God take our anger? There's
bad theology behind that of people who don't realize I
can express my anger to God, he can take it.
So I want to encourage viewers and listeners like questions, questions, questions,
be curious, just like you were today. Ask some of
the best questions, which doesn't surprise me, driven by curiosity.
And if we Christians did that better, I think that
would change the way a lot of people think about
the Christian faith and in some ways be open to
hearing what we believe. If we loved and listened and
cared first.
Speaker 1: Amen, well said Sean. I know that you are needed elsewhere.
Thank you for bringing your wife, Stephanie, and appreciate you
coming in. Thank you for making a way here. And
we'll wrap it up. This is the Todd Herman Show.
Please go, be well, be strong, be kind, Please make
every effort to walk in the line of Christ and
happy Resurrection. Sunday