Speaker 1: This is Pod Popular Podcast for the People.
Speaker 2: The Great Love Debate. It's the Great Love Debate, the
Speaker 2: Great Love Debate.
Speaker 3: It's a Great Love to bab Hi again. Everyone, It's
Speaker 3: Brian Howie.
Speaker 4: Welcome to the Great Love Debate, the world's number one
Speaker 4: dating and a relationship podcast since twenty fifteen. I am
Speaker 4: back here in the very fine studios of Pod Popular
Speaker 4: Podcasts for the People. I'm at the uh what's known
Speaker 4: as the Pop Pod in the one in Boca Ratone.
Speaker 4: It is very luxurious. What I want to get into
Speaker 4: today is not that luxurious.
Speaker 3: I can't.
Speaker 4: I don't think i've ever I've done, you know, almost
Speaker 4: five hundred episodes of this podcast. I don't think I've
Speaker 4: ever done an entire episode related to this. It's tough
Speaker 4: to bring up. It's painful for people. It's touched on
Speaker 4: on a lot of our podcasts and a lot of
Speaker 4: the relationships things that that we get into. But I
Speaker 4: have noticed that it is it is a rampant problem,
Speaker 4: and that is the issue of cheating, fidelity.
Speaker 3: And I travel a lot for business.
Speaker 4: I travel a lot for this podcast, and I stay
Speaker 4: in a lot of hotels, and I stay in a
Speaker 4: lot of you know, mid range business hotels. So I'm
Speaker 4: in you know, Hilton's and Hyatts and Marriott's, and the
Speaker 4: scene in those hotels and in the bars and in
Speaker 4: the restaurants where there are people with badges on and
Speaker 4: rings in their pockets and quickly calling home to check
Speaker 4: in with their husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, and then acting
Speaker 4: like the husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend does not exist.
Speaker 3: In the world, and doing whatever they want to do
Speaker 3: as somebody who is not married.
Speaker 4: I'm always like, is the wife husband okay? With just
Speaker 4: that quick phone call and that's all they want? Is
Speaker 4: that their deal?
Speaker 3: Is that okay?
Speaker 4: Do they know what's going on? I have a million
Speaker 4: questions on this. I go to I've been to some
Speaker 4: and youth sports games with friends of mine and mom
Speaker 4: and dad hate each other, but they're like flirting with
Speaker 4: the friends, the kids, friends, and anyway, a lot to
Speaker 4: get into.
Speaker 3: I couldn't navigate this to myself. I have to bring
Speaker 3: in a pro for this.
Speaker 4: Not that she's a cheating pro, but she is a
Speaker 4: pro on really understanding this landscape. Those of you who've
Speaker 4: listened to this podcast for a long long time, you've
Speaker 4: heard her on here before. She's been on my stage
Speaker 4: many many times. She is the author of First Comes Us?
Speaker 3: Is that right? She's therapist.
Speaker 4: She's got a new book coming out that I'm not
Speaker 4: going to tell you about, but she really is passionate
Speaker 4: about this weird subject too.
Speaker 3: My old friend, Anita Chapala, how are you?
Speaker 1: I'm doing great? How are you doing?
Speaker 4: Am I wrong to think cheating is? I don't know
Speaker 4: if the word normalized is ever, but it is. It's pandemic,
Speaker 4: it is. I feel like there's more of it. I
Speaker 4: feel like husbands and wives and boyfriends or girlfriends are
Speaker 4: a lot more distant and checked out. I feel like
Speaker 4: people are looking for stimuli from other places. I feel
Speaker 4: like there's a flippancy about it, but the pain of
Speaker 4: it and the dishonesty of it it's real.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I don't necessarily see a flippancy to it.
Speaker 1: I mean I think just the clients that come to
Speaker 1: me obviously are looking to see if they can heal
Speaker 1: and repair their relationship. But I have had the flippancy
Speaker 1: I do sometimes see is if someone doesn't like if
Speaker 1: there's a difference between two partners considering when they disagree
Speaker 1: on their either definition of cheating or one partner is
Speaker 1: engaging in some behaviors that they think are fine, but
Speaker 1: partner be views it as disrespectful. So then there could
Speaker 1: be some minimization, deflecting, gaslighting, you know, things like that.
Speaker 1: But I do agree with you. In our practice, and
Speaker 1: especially for me because I do specialize in infidelity, we
Speaker 1: have seen a huge increase in cases coming to us.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, traditionally it was the men who
Speaker 4: were the cheaters, because the men are the ones who
Speaker 4: allegedly had the opportunities they were traveling on business and whatever.
Speaker 4: And just to be clear here, if you go back
Speaker 4: to my twenties, any of my old girlfriends, I was
Speaker 4: probably no saint on this subject matter a long time ago,
Speaker 4: and I was cheated on and it was you know,
Speaker 4: when it happened to me, it was the most painful
Speaker 4: experience I ever went through, the questioning that dishonest thing.
Speaker 3: And the person who cheated on.
Speaker 4: Me had had such a serious cheating thing happened to
Speaker 4: her twenty years prior that. I thought, if you were
Speaker 4: ever good this it so damaged her and it's probably
Speaker 4: damaged her to this day. It affected her marriage, it
Speaker 4: affected her relationships, She had trust issues, she had resentment issues,
Speaker 4: she had all kinds of things that I was like,
Speaker 4: there's no way this person would do that.
Speaker 3: You just can never say that. You just never know.
Speaker 4: And that's why part of it is is the hurt,
Speaker 4: the guilt, the shock, the and I was even somebody
Speaker 4: even told me, like one of her you know, anonymous
Speaker 4: or friend or somebody said hey, you know they're cheating
Speaker 4: on you and gave specific details about it. I was
Speaker 4: so like, there's no way that would ever happen. I
Speaker 4: protected her. I was like, no, that, there's no way
Speaker 4: that didn't happen. And I was like, you know, somebody's
Speaker 4: trying to make you feel bad. That's how shocking it
Speaker 4: was to me. And so until it happens to you,
Speaker 4: I don't think I ever even went back and looked
Speaker 4: at my terrible behavior in my twenties that you know, oh,
Speaker 4: you're on spring break and your girlfriend at college's home
Speaker 4: and you may out with.
Speaker 3: Somebody at Cancun. It's not good.
Speaker 4: But a lot of times cheating comes from a place
Speaker 4: of a cry for help. I'm not satisfied at home,
Speaker 4: both partners probably sharing it to some degree, lack of communication.
Speaker 3: It's very rarely just I need to go get laid right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, well, I'm sorry that happened to you.
Speaker 1: And yes, I think sometimes my clients, and I think
Speaker 1: even in Esther Pearl's book The State of Affairs, that
Speaker 1: cheating is kind of being like the worst thing that
Speaker 1: can happen to a couple, even over divorce. So it
Speaker 1: is really devastating. I mean, people experience PTSD symptoms. I
Speaker 1: treat it as a trauma and so you know, And yes,
Speaker 1: I think it is difficult for some people to empathize
Speaker 1: until they are actually going through it, which obviously I
Speaker 1: would not recommend for anyone just to be able to
Speaker 1: have empathy with their partner. But there could be a
Speaker 1: lot of reasons. I mean, one, you know, we do
Speaker 1: we are seeing an increase in female and fidelity. And
Speaker 1: then two you would think that someone would not want
Speaker 1: to inflict the same pain, But there could be, you know,
Speaker 1: a number of reasons why you're ex did what she did.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, And you know, people who operate from
Speaker 4: a place of pain don't always make rational decisions. And
Speaker 4: we're a lot of us are operating from a place
Speaker 4: of pain. But what I've noticed is a lot of
Speaker 4: times people are just not being heard in the home.
Speaker 4: A lot of the women I know who are.
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna say they're cheaters.
Speaker 4: But women who are doing things who I know are
Speaker 4: married and they're in adulterous affairs. Their husbands do not
Speaker 4: make them feel desired. Their tension in the house, as
Speaker 4: I've said many times on the show, is a problem.
Speaker 4: When you go from husband wife to mom and dad.
Speaker 4: There's a lot of that intimacy that has gone and
Speaker 4: some people just need anywhere from a flirt to a
Speaker 4: hug to a bed and they're crying out.
Speaker 3: And that's why I know you work with people to
Speaker 3: try and repair it.
Speaker 4: You think it has not absolutely fataled every relationship if
Speaker 4: you go back and see how the elements played into
Speaker 4: this and what part each person took, because it's rarely
Speaker 4: one hundred zero right.
Speaker 1: Yes, However, I mean you also want to be careful
Speaker 1: because happy people can cheat. And I have had those
Speaker 1: clients on my caseload where they could say, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm feeling pretty good with my marriage and I'm feeling great.
Speaker 1: So the vast majority, yes, I agree with you that
Speaker 1: there is maybe something that was missing in the relationship,
Speaker 1: the lack of attention, disconnection, not feeling desired one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: But it doesn't explain away all of the reasons why
Speaker 1: people cheat. There's not The relationship doesn't always have to
Speaker 1: be bad or quote unquote broken in order to give
Speaker 1: a person or reason to cheat.
Speaker 4: So you just said happy people cheat. Explain that, what
Speaker 4: are those?
Speaker 3: But how does that? I'm sure it happens, but explain that.
Speaker 1: Well, here's one example. So I actually worked with this couple.
Speaker 1: They just on typical relationship stuff, typical marital stuff, and
Speaker 1: they came back to me for a few sessions because
Speaker 1: the husband ended up having a kind of emotional affair
Speaker 1: with an ex girlfriend from like twenty years prior, and
Speaker 1: so they started messaging, and then he minimized the whole
Speaker 1: time because he goes, this doesn't mean anything. You know
Speaker 1: she you know, I'm happy in my marriage. She lives
Speaker 1: halfway around the world. Just really kind of looked at
Speaker 1: it from a more logical standpoint, and the wife was
Speaker 1: so upset. She's like, you were rehashing your feelings. You
Speaker 1: told her you would always love her. And one of
Speaker 1: the things that came out of it was that this
Speaker 1: woman ended up sending him some racy photos and he
Speaker 1: was like this is great. I've never gotten racy photos before,
Speaker 1: and so he was happy. There was just again minimizing
Speaker 1: and not really paying attention to your falling down this
Speaker 1: slippery slope. You're making yourself vulnerable here and it ended
Speaker 1: up breaking trust. And so when I look at infidelity,
Speaker 1: I actually look at it in two parts. I look
Speaker 1: at protection of the relationship, and that's stuff like defining cheating,
Speaker 1: looking at your boundaries, how are you engaging in the relationship,
Speaker 1: how are you as a couple protecting your relationship? And
Speaker 1: then I look at the second piece, which it's satisfaction.
Speaker 1: And then that's some of the stuff that you talking about.
Speaker 1: There might be something that has been missing in the relationship.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And and then you know a lot of times,
Speaker 4: you know, there's there's two kinds. I kind of look
Speaker 4: at somebody who you're in the workplace with and you
Speaker 4: share a cubicle with, and you actually spend more awake
Speaker 4: time with that person than you probably do your partner,
Speaker 4: and you flirt and you hang out and whatever, and
Speaker 4: there becomes a closeness. And I'm not saying boundaries or
Speaker 4: ever cross, but there's this emotional attachment to a colleague
Speaker 4: or a coworker that happens.
Speaker 3: Then there is.
Speaker 4: People though that are just like on the road for
Speaker 4: business or traveling on a golf trip or whatever, and
Speaker 4: they're like, I am so disconnected from my home life.
Speaker 3: This is just a distraction. This is separate.
Speaker 4: This has just checked out that they don't look at
Speaker 4: the repercussions of what's going on at home.
Speaker 1: And they probably also don't think they're going to get caught, and.
Speaker 3: They think they're not going to get caught. I know.
Speaker 1: And uh, one of the well of the common things
Speaker 1: that I see with my clients, especially the latter scenario,
Speaker 1: is that they are really good at compartmentalizing their lives
Speaker 1: where they do separate it. They do view whatever they
Speaker 1: do on work trips or when they're not home like
Speaker 1: I mean, I've even had some clients rationalize it as
Speaker 1: it doesn't count as cheating because it's not in the
Speaker 1: same state.
Speaker 4: I mean, people rationalize all kinds of emotions and behaviors. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I know, And a lot of times the partner is
Speaker 4: okay with it as long as they come home eventually,
Speaker 4: or as long as they continue to be a good dad,
Speaker 4: or as long as they come back to me and
Speaker 4: share the bed or whatever. They're like, if this is
Speaker 4: what they need to do, get out of the system,
Speaker 4: sort of the old fashioned you know, the goumar.
Speaker 3: It's not healthy.
Speaker 1: But you know, Brian, I don't know if I would
Speaker 1: use the word a lot. I mean, I don't know
Speaker 1: who you hang out with, but my clients are definitely
Speaker 1: not okay with it. I mean, unless they're specific, they're
Speaker 1: not okay if someone if their partner goes then cheats
Speaker 1: on them when they're on a trip. Like I mean,
Speaker 1: people again, another characteristic of people who cheat, and I
Speaker 1: think sometimes the other partner as well, is there's a
Speaker 1: lot of conflict avoidance going on. So I think there's more.
Speaker 1: Maybe we don't talk about it, or people don't talk
Speaker 1: about sex, or they don't talk about the problems in
Speaker 1: the relationship. But the reactions that people have when they
Speaker 1: find out that their partner cheated, they I mean, they're
Speaker 1: not okay with it.
Speaker 4: No, I'm saying a lot is probably a strong word.
Speaker 4: But there's a lot of women are like, I'm tired.
Speaker 4: Let him touch anybody, just not me, Like I don't care,
Speaker 4: I don't find him attractive anymore. Like there's a lot
Speaker 4: of that, But you brought up early earlier, that is
Speaker 4: somehow more traumatic than divorce. I think you're right. If
Speaker 4: the divorce comes as a result of cheating, that's different.
Speaker 4: But if divorce just comes from we don't like each
Speaker 4: other and we're not getting along or whatever the cheating,
Speaker 4: generally one of the partners still or both still have
Speaker 4: some emotional attachment there, and that's what has blown up
Speaker 4: more than divorce, which can be logistical and financial.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and sometimes I mean, I would say maybe, although
Speaker 1: I have worked with clients where a divorce just seemed
Speaker 1: out of the blue. For the most part, clients kind
Speaker 1: of know if the relationship has had or the marriage
Speaker 1: is headed that way. But with infidelity kind of like
Speaker 1: what you said, how shocked you were, right, there's no
Speaker 1: way or someone who like, let's say both partners were suffering.
Speaker 1: So it makes the non cheating partner even more angry
Speaker 1: because they're like, I was dealing with the same things
Speaker 1: that you were.
Speaker 3: And and I didn't cheat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I say for you.
Speaker 4: But the person who you know, everybody is sort of
Speaker 4: looking out for their own best interest in the moment.
Speaker 4: And I remember what she said to me at the time,
Speaker 4: like it just happened, and I'm like, it just doesn't happen.
Speaker 4: This is like a multi hour day a thing like
Speaker 4: it just doesn't happen.
Speaker 3: And you know, people.
Speaker 4: Want to justify behavior, they want to compart in my line,
Speaker 4: they want to deal with But again, I'm not trying
Speaker 4: to let anybody off the hook on this, including myself.
Speaker 3: People look for.
Speaker 4: Alcohol, they look for drugs, they look for sex, they
Speaker 4: look for an escape from whatever pain they're in or
Speaker 4: their reality. And sometimes when you're in a relationship and
Speaker 4: you were like a real relationship, not just like we
Speaker 4: date on Saturday night when it's all fun, like you're
Speaker 4: dealing with kids and you're dealing with work and you're
Speaker 4: dealing with stress, a lot of times you don't feel
Speaker 4: like boyfriend girlfriend at the end of the day. You
Speaker 4: don't feel like husband wife at the end of the day,
Speaker 4: and you need to go back to feeling flirty and
Speaker 4: good again. And that's why some of these women and
Speaker 4: men send pictures. They want somebody to tell them, oh
Speaker 4: my god, you're so hot. You look so hot that
Speaker 4: maybe after you've been in a relationship for two, five, ten,
Speaker 4: twenty years, you're not getting that on a regular basis,
Speaker 4: so I'm gonna get into more of this. I want
Speaker 4: to talk about how we communicate both on the front
Speaker 4: side and the backside to try and avoid this. I'm
Speaker 4: with Anita Chilpola. She is I hate to say, you're
Speaker 4: an expert on cheating. You're fascinated by the subject matter,
Speaker 4: and again I'm not. I it really bothers me on
Speaker 4: all sides of it and how often I see it.
Speaker 4: But you know it's none of my business. But we
Speaker 4: are talking about this. We will be right back after this,
Speaker 4: and we are back. Almost every breakdown in a relationship
Speaker 4: comes down to communication, and people are not being heard.
Speaker 4: People are not respecting their partners wishes, thoughts, conversations, cries
Speaker 4: for help when the cheating happens and they come to
Speaker 4: see you, if they both come to see you willingly,
Speaker 4: and I'm not.
Speaker 3: Sure that's always the case.
Speaker 4: They come to you because they want an explanation, they
Speaker 4: want somebody else to hear them out, They want to
Speaker 4: repair it.
Speaker 3: Is the what is the reason all of those.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if they if they both want to
Speaker 1: come in, or if they both come in and they
Speaker 1: both want to make the marriage work, or in a relationship,
Speaker 1: because not everybody is married. I do work with non
Speaker 1: married couples as well. Then they want to know how
Speaker 1: this happened, why it happened, like how do you get
Speaker 1: to this point? And then healing, rebuilding, and then making
Speaker 1: the relationship or marriage better than it's ever been. So
Speaker 1: those are the kind steps. And I also I have
Speaker 1: people who come in individually and they're not sure, like
Speaker 1: either you know, they want to know why they cheated,
Speaker 1: or they want to know if they should stay with
Speaker 1: a partner who cheated. And sometimes I do have mixed couples,
Speaker 1: like I actually just saw one this morning where the
Speaker 1: husband wants to make the marriage work and the wife
Speaker 1: is unsure. And sometimes I have couples who come in, well.
Speaker 3: Way, was a husband the cheater?
Speaker 1: No he was not, Yeah, the wife was yeah. But
Speaker 1: and even when people don't know, so the other thing
Speaker 1: is like people don't know what they don't know. I mean, yes,
Speaker 1: I do specialize and in fidelity, but I've also been
Speaker 1: a couple's therapists for over eighteen years, and so there's
Speaker 1: also just typical couple stuff like you mentioned communication, Brian.
Speaker 1: I started keeping track of this a long time ago.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent of our couples, every single one of them.
Speaker 1: When we ask them in the initial consultation, what is
Speaker 1: your goal, they'll say communication, like every single one. And
Speaker 1: sometimes it's like, it's not about communication. Sure, I could
Speaker 1: give you some skills and tools to help you, but
Speaker 1: a lot of times what it comes down to is
Speaker 1: really managing differences in relationships. And even more importantly, and
Speaker 1: probably the most importantly, is safety and security in a relationship.
Speaker 1: And by that I also mean connection. Like a lot
Speaker 1: of our couples fight about connection and they don't realize
Speaker 1: that they're doing it, and then they just blow up
Speaker 1: their marriages. So when you talk about some of these,
Speaker 1: you know, even though it's not always the case, if
Speaker 1: the relationship is a symptom of infidelity, then yes, there's
Speaker 1: probably some things that could have been fixed, especially connection,
Speaker 1: because a lot of times people will you know that
Speaker 1: that disconnection happens and it's not overnight, but it takes years.
Speaker 1: Like you said, if it's you know, you have kids
Speaker 1: and you have stressors, then you don't have time for
Speaker 1: each other. The last thing you want to do is
Speaker 1: make love to your partner after a sixteen hour day
Speaker 1: where the kids are crying and you had vomita on
Speaker 1: your shirt. You know, people don't feel sexy, and you know,
Speaker 1: I always look at like, well, what did the affair
Speaker 1: do for you? Or what did the cheating like? Who
Speaker 1: were you in this affair? And it's usually they're able
Speaker 1: to be a way that they aren't in their relationship.
Speaker 4: Is it is it easier for a couple to repair
Speaker 4: it if the cheater is completely remorseful or is it
Speaker 4: easier to repair it if the cheater is very clear
Speaker 4: as to why it happened, and then the couple can
Speaker 4: repair that? Does that make sense?
Speaker 3: Well, you have to know, I mean, I'm sorry, it
Speaker 3: only goes so far, you know.
Speaker 1: Right, I mean you want you absolutely have to know.
Speaker 1: The cheater has to know why they cheated in order
Speaker 1: to make sure that it doesn't happen again, because then
Speaker 1: how would the non cheating partner know it wouldn't. And
Speaker 1: part of my job is to help the person figure
Speaker 1: out why they did what they did and then close
Speaker 1: those loops or those gaps. So for example, like if
Speaker 1: someone cheats because they didn't feel like they like just say,
Speaker 1: they weren't getting enough attention, or they didn't feel sexy
Speaker 1: or desired by their partner, but they didn't speak up,
Speaker 1: they avoided conflict. Then my job would be to, yes,
Speaker 1: teach them the tools or help them, like to communicate
Speaker 1: to their partner so that they would be able to
Speaker 1: get their needs met from their partner, or right to
Speaker 1: have the kind of sex life that they want where
Speaker 1: they could feel feel sexy, like what does that look like?
Speaker 2: Cheating look like?
Speaker 4: Cheating's rarely about sex, though, is it. It's more about attension,
Speaker 4: isn't it. Well, unless you're getting no sex, I think.
Speaker 1: I think the popular belief is that cheating is about sex.
Speaker 1: But sometimes again it does come down to I'm not
Speaker 1: getting anything at home. So yes, sometimes those are there
Speaker 1: are cases, but more more so I hear the I
Speaker 1: want to feel desired. Yeah, they want attention because you know,
Speaker 1: if they keep getting rejected at home, I mean the
Speaker 1: I think am I I'm not even a sex therapist,
Speaker 1: but in my opinion, sexual rejection is one of the
Speaker 1: worst to experience because when you I say, do sex right,
Speaker 1: then it's the most vulnerable that you could be because
Speaker 1: you're literally naked, you're emotionally naked. You're just so vulnerable.
Speaker 1: And then to continue to be rejected. Did buy a
Speaker 1: partner is probably the most brutal, Like I liken it too.
Speaker 1: Like let's say financial security is important to a couple
Speaker 1: and a one partner blows like one thousand dollars, another
Speaker 1: partner will be pissed, Like they'll definitely be upset, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but they're not like, oh, I can't believe you did
Speaker 1: that to me. You know, don't take it as personally,
Speaker 1: but there's no way to not take sexual rejection, especially
Speaker 1: if it happens over and over again.
Speaker 3: Right then it's like, why are you with me? What
Speaker 3: are we doing here?
Speaker 4: We don't have a compatibility the I'm mixing up my
Speaker 4: cheater and my cheaty. Here are there times when a
Speaker 4: couple comes to you without naming any names, that you're like,
Speaker 4: this cheating by him or her goes so much deeper
Speaker 4: than what she knows, like that you're like, oh, this
Speaker 4: is chronic. This is not a one time thing, and
Speaker 4: you can tell and how do you pull that out?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean for sure that has happened. And that's
Speaker 1: when I beg my client to like be honest about
Speaker 1: the infidelity, because if something gets found out later, it's
Speaker 1: either going to set the you know, couple back in
Speaker 1: the recovery process now, and I'm talking about like I mean,
Speaker 1: if it's and it's also hard for me to say
Speaker 1: with every situation, like I will split the couple up
Speaker 1: and talk to the individual and be like, is there
Speaker 1: anything that you're not telling me? Because again, it really
Speaker 1: just depends, like sometimes people just want to get everything
Speaker 1: off of their chest to feel better, where it might
Speaker 1: devastate the other person more so, you know, But when
Speaker 1: I can tell that they're hiding or they're still not
Speaker 1: being truthful or things aren't making sense, then yes, I
Speaker 1: really strongly encourage them to tell the whole truth. And
Speaker 1: the only thing I can do in those moments is
Speaker 1: this doesn't make sense to me, and this is why,
Speaker 1: and point it out because I've had sometimes the non
Speaker 1: cheating partner was like, thank you for that, because this
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense to me either. So their gut is
Speaker 1: telling them the partner is still hiding something and I
Speaker 1: could definitely see it.
Speaker 3: Is there any anything that you do?
Speaker 4: I guess this is not your role but to try
Speaker 4: to ease the pain of the cheated on person or
Speaker 4: is that not relevant?
Speaker 3: The pain should be real?
Speaker 4: I don't because a lot of times they're even responding
Speaker 4: to they're so hurt they can't have a rational conversation
Speaker 4: about moving forward till they move past the hurt.
Speaker 1: Well, I try to tell clients not to make a
Speaker 1: decision about the relationship for at least six months so
Speaker 1: that they can allow some of the feelings and the
Speaker 1: hurt to dissipate. But in the beginning, like, what I
Speaker 1: really look at is emotional management, because the person who
Speaker 1: is hurt definitely wants to lash out. I mean, come
Speaker 1: on right like that, that's what they want to do.
Speaker 1: And so I like, I mean, even with the guy
Speaker 1: this morning when I told him, I mean, I had
Speaker 1: to give him some like self soothing strategies, some distraction,
Speaker 1: And I always say, like, you have every right to
Speaker 1: feel how you feel like and I know I'm asking
Speaker 1: a lot of you, but you cannot act however you
Speaker 1: want to act, or if you continue like you don't
Speaker 1: want to, then become you know, verbally or emotionally abusive
Speaker 1: towards your partner. Like more hurt isn't going to help
Speaker 1: the situation. If you want to walk away, or if
Speaker 1: walking away is an option, then you want to be
Speaker 1: able to tell yourself, okay, I did everything and I'm
Speaker 1: not going to have any regrets. But if you pile
Speaker 1: on verbal or emotional abuse, you know you're you're not
Speaker 1: going to be able to walk away saying all right,
Speaker 1: I tried everything in a healthy way, and so I know,
Speaker 1: I know I'm asking a lot of my clients, But
Speaker 1: being able to manage your emotions, to be able to
Speaker 1: have productive conversations, and to be able to process everything
Speaker 1: that happened is really important.
Speaker 4: Six months seems like forever for somebody to try and
Speaker 4: sit there and table that and ask the people to
Speaker 4: change behavior or like, while you're going through it, you're
Speaker 4: wondering everything. You're wondering who are they talking to, what
Speaker 4: are they doing? Like that's the thing. When you lose
Speaker 4: the trust the most simple gestures, you know, it takes
Speaker 4: forever to get over that.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, well, we're tabling whether or not to stay
Speaker 1: in the relationship or what they want to do in
Speaker 1: the relationship. But the whole time, like during that six months,
Speaker 1: the person who cheated. This is where this is different
Speaker 1: than typical couple's therapy because it's not as balanced. So
Speaker 1: the person who cheated has to do more of the
Speaker 1: work to heal the non cheating partner and so things
Speaker 1: like you know, I'm sure again I don't know all
Speaker 1: the details of your situation, but if you wanted to
Speaker 1: try to make it work. But one of the key
Speaker 1: things after disclosure of infidelity is the need for transparency
Speaker 1: because you don't know, like everything was a lie to
Speaker 1: the traumatize the brain. Everything was a lot like what
Speaker 1: am I supposed to know? How am I supposed to
Speaker 1: know that what you say is true? When you've lied
Speaker 1: to me so many times? And so I really recommend
Speaker 1: to the person who cheated max transparency.
Speaker 4: So that is well, you don't trust the entire relationship.
Speaker 4: Was the entire relationship a lie?
Speaker 3: Why do yeah? I know?
Speaker 4: So it gets back to broken trust? Do women do men?
Speaker 4: I imagine because I know people who men who have
Speaker 4: this happened to. Men tend to take it harder than women.
Speaker 4: A lot of times women are like, you know, he's
Speaker 4: a man and man have needs and they do that
Speaker 4: they little bit dismiss it.
Speaker 3: Or is that me being.
Speaker 1: Sexist and like being being sexist? Okay, what I've what
Speaker 1: I kind of see is and I think I don't
Speaker 1: know if there's like research to support this, but I've
Speaker 1: definitely read it is that men have a harder time
Speaker 1: with women's sexual affai and women have a harder time
Speaker 1: with men's emotional affairs. And so, for example, if a
Speaker 1: woman is sexting with another guy, but let's say the
Speaker 1: husband or the male partner doesn't get that, like, well,
Speaker 1: why did he get all that sexy, you know, all
Speaker 1: the sex picks and I've forgotten it? Or a woman
Speaker 1: is like why did he write her love letters? And
Speaker 1: he didn't write them for me, you know. So it's
Speaker 1: like the things that they've really wanted for their own
Speaker 1: relationships or marriages they weren't getting but the partner was
Speaker 1: dishing it out to somebody else. Is really has been
Speaker 1: really painful.
Speaker 4: I have Yeah, I have had friends of mine, wives, girlfriends.
Speaker 4: I guess hit on me. I guess over the years
Speaker 4: because they think and this is not this is not
Speaker 4: a good indicator. Brian Howie think that I'm sort ofly
Speaker 4: emotionally neutral, and I will just compliment them and be
Speaker 4: fun and fine and and tell them they're pretty and
Speaker 4: answer the questions and make them laugh and everything. And
Speaker 4: part of it is a little bit insulting to me
Speaker 4: that I could just sort of be used in this way,
Speaker 4: but they're almost like, oh, that guy could be a
Speaker 4: safe port. He's never been married, he doesn't seem to care.
Speaker 4: Where there's no risk, there's no downside, And I really
Speaker 4: I don't like it.
Speaker 3: I feel comfortable and I don't.
Speaker 4: I reject it, and I always have because I'm always
Speaker 4: like I would feel so bad if I were that guy,
Speaker 4: or I would feel so bad, And you never want
Speaker 4: to be that guy.
Speaker 3: You never want to be that girl. You never want
Speaker 3: to be the one who's.
Speaker 4: Feel stupid or everybody else knows about it, but you
Speaker 4: or everybody else is.
Speaker 3: Whispering about it.
Speaker 4: So even the intimation to me is like, go work
Speaker 4: out whatever you got to work out, if you guys
Speaker 4: got to get divorced or have a conversation.
Speaker 3: But I don't want to get involved in this stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you may or may not be surprised
Speaker 1: that how many people end up cheating with like their
Speaker 1: partner's best friend. So I mean, maybe you just taking
Speaker 1: us to tell you that these women find you attractive,
Speaker 1: or we're just pressed in the waters.
Speaker 3: I don't even know.
Speaker 4: So if it's that they find me attractive, I think
Speaker 4: they know that I understand women to a certain degree
Speaker 4: because I care, like I really been fascinated by the subject.
Speaker 4: You know me, we're friends, Like I really I'll ask
Speaker 4: an extra question because I really want to know the
Speaker 4: husband or the boyfriend or whatever. Sometimes they just don't
Speaker 4: and sometimes they won't care about how she thinks and
Speaker 4: what she does, Like I will ask anybody strangers, what
Speaker 4: are you thinking? Why do you thinking? I'm just I
Speaker 4: like that. Hence the great love debate, Like I love
Speaker 4: this subject matter. Now everybody wants to talk about this shit,
Speaker 4: and sometimes they want to, you know, like when people
Speaker 4: find out what you it's got to be hard to
Speaker 4: date a therapist, you know, because yeah, it's impossible because
Speaker 4: they're like you're they think you're constantly judging them. And
Speaker 4: back during you know, you know, back in the day,
Speaker 4: people used to ask me, are you asking me this
Speaker 4: because you care about me? Or you asking about this
Speaker 4: for material for whatever you're doing, And I'm always like
Speaker 4: a little bit of both.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing is going back to the attraction,
Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily even talking about like physical, but also emotional,
Speaker 1: which if they feel like you understand them, Yes, a
Speaker 1: lot of time like this has happened more frequently than
Speaker 1: maybe people would realize. Is how many times my clients
Speaker 1: have told me I wasn't even attracted to this person.
Speaker 1: But with like you mentioned the coworker, like you spend
Speaker 1: more time with the coworker, you get to know their personality,
Speaker 1: or you start becoming vulnerable, you know, then attraction can grow.
Speaker 1: And that's happened to my clients where they didn't think
Speaker 1: of someone as a threat because they didn't view them
Speaker 1: in an attractive way, and then over time, boom, they're
Speaker 1: having sex in a hotel room.
Speaker 4: I know that drives the cheaty, the person who's got
Speaker 4: cheated on nuts when they're like, oh my god, it's
Speaker 4: just they didn't like me because that person's not younger,
Speaker 4: hotter or whatever. It's like, oh my god, they found
Speaker 4: something in that they're not finding in me, you know.
Speaker 4: But some people just need an escape mentally. There's I
Speaker 4: hope she doesn't listen to this podcast, but there's a
Speaker 4: friend of mine. She's not even a friend of mine,
Speaker 4: and she's a girl I went out with in college
Speaker 4: twenty five years ago, I don't know. And she got
Speaker 4: married to the guy right after me, right after college,
Speaker 4: and so she's been married for like twenty something years
Speaker 4: and she will reach out via email or something every
Speaker 4: like five years have been like, oh, I remember that
Speaker 4: time in Boston. We had so much fun, And I'm like,
Speaker 4: I don't even know what you're talking about. You're like
Speaker 4: four hundred girlfriends ago, Like, I really don't even know.
Speaker 4: I would know of you if I fell over you.
Speaker 4: But in her place, it's like, what was my life
Speaker 4: like before I was married and who was in that?
Speaker 4: And they're kind of that's not a sly cheating, but
Speaker 4: it is using me in a relationship as an escape
Speaker 4: from whatever it is, and that with her that's probably
Speaker 4: been going on like ten years, and it's just a
Speaker 4: quick email and I just kind of respond. She emotionally
Speaker 4: is escaping somewhere, which might be healthier than her actually
Speaker 4: having an affair. But I'm always like, does this guy
Speaker 4: know that she does this or does he do it?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, But here's the thing, Brian. Is you the way
Speaker 1: that you respond to that, which is it sounds like
Speaker 1: maybe you quickly respond, but you shoot it down. It's
Speaker 1: not like you're engaging, right.
Speaker 3: I'm answering one of the questions. I'm I'm trying. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm shooting it down. I'm not being like, oh, you.
Speaker 4: Look good these days, like I really don't.
Speaker 1: But that's how some infidelity happens is that people they
Speaker 1: might for whatever reason escape could be one of them.
Speaker 1: Absolutely uh they reach out to an X and I
Speaker 1: do believe with social media now we have, you know,
Speaker 1: could start innocently, Oh what are they doing, I wonder
Speaker 1: what they're up to. Oh they're divorced or they're still single.
Speaker 1: And then you reach out and then if a person
Speaker 1: does engage in that behavior, that can get a couple
Speaker 1: to tumble down this flope of ending up. She technically
Speaker 1: would be cheating then you know, not you but like
Speaker 1: you shoot it down. But can you imagine how many
Speaker 1: instances this happens around the world where someone does engage
Speaker 1: in the conversation.
Speaker 3: I know, I never want to be that guy.
Speaker 4: I don't want some husband mad at me because I
Speaker 4: emailed his wife back, like I just try and be like, sure,
Speaker 4: Merry Christmas. That is a thing though social media there's
Speaker 4: a way to connect with other people. There is I mean,
Speaker 4: is is a porn addiction considered cheating in the marriage.
Speaker 4: It is the same thing. Do you treat it the
Speaker 4: same way?
Speaker 1: So well, I am not an addiction especially.
Speaker 3: You know what I mean, or a porn habit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, But well I do have clients who well,
Speaker 1: I think each couple has to determine for themselves if
Speaker 1: a porn addiction would be considered cheating. Like I have
Speaker 1: clients look at what what do you consider cheating and
Speaker 1: what do you consider to break trust? What do you
Speaker 1: consider to be disrespectful? But I do have clients who
Speaker 1: will say that they like part of the reason why
Speaker 1: they're either cheating or towing the line and really kind
Speaker 1: of crossing boundaries that they shouldn't be crossing is because
Speaker 1: they are highly impulsive and have what they say, an
Speaker 1: addictive personality. So I do look at the rewards that
Speaker 1: they get from whatever behavior they're engaging in and try
Speaker 1: to kind of re kind of bring that reward down
Speaker 1: in the hierarchy and try to give them healthier alternatives
Speaker 1: or even just looking at different looking at their behavior
Speaker 1: in different ways to see if they could stop doing it.
Speaker 4: So I think a pretty good thing is if your
Speaker 4: partner saw your phone, would there be anything on there
Speaker 4: that would accept what upset them?
Speaker 1: Right? I mean, that's a great guideline. I recommend to
Speaker 1: my clients you should I in my opinion, I mean,
Speaker 1: I do believe there people should have a right to privacy.
Speaker 1: But if you if your partner were to ask for
Speaker 1: your phone, would you be okay handing it open?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Well, I mean the phone could be some misinterpretation, But
Speaker 4: I'm just saying mentally, in your own mind, if your
Speaker 4: partner looked looked at your phone, and would there be
Speaker 4: anything to upset them? And you can kind of use
Speaker 4: that as your own guideline, like, oh, that's that, And
Speaker 4: then you got to think like, Okay, why would it
Speaker 4: upset them? And what should I do to make sure
Speaker 4: that I'm not doing anything, even unintentionally that might upset them?
Speaker 3: And a lot of you know, I did.
Speaker 4: An episode about this a couple of weeks ago about
Speaker 4: how I think it's okay.
Speaker 3: To have a healthy relationship with your exes. I think
Speaker 3: it's a good thing.
Speaker 4: But I also said that your new partner has every
Speaker 4: right to shut it down if they're not comfortable with it.
Speaker 4: And if they're not comfortable with it and they express
Speaker 4: it and then you're doing it anyway, then there's something
Speaker 4: that you're doing that might accept them and your loyalty,
Speaker 4: and your obligation is to the new partner. You know,
Speaker 4: your ex is your ex for a reason didn't work out, right, right?
Speaker 3: Right? Two things?
Speaker 1: Well, go ahead, Yeah, I mean I would. I would
Speaker 1: just say again, I know everybody has a different viewpoint
Speaker 1: around x's which every couple has to negotiate, but I
Speaker 1: agree because there's a difference. If they truly are just
Speaker 1: a friend, then it should be one hundred percent. There
Speaker 1: should be one hundred percent transparency around it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean's better than I I want to kill
Speaker 4: that person, and that's unresolved feelings, all right, in the
Speaker 4: interest of time, give me two things. One thing is
Speaker 4: give me either something that somebody can do or a
Speaker 4: technique that will stop cheating before it starts. And then
Speaker 4: you're going to give me something that's going to a
Speaker 4: step that can heal it if it happened.
Speaker 3: Does that make sense, Yes.
Speaker 1: I mean have a lot for the first of one. Well, one,
Speaker 1: I always ask my clients in the initial consultation if
Speaker 1: they have defined cheating prior to the incident or incidences,
Speaker 1: and so far, zero percent of my couples have said yes.
Speaker 1: And sometimes I'll get a kind of and that's the
Speaker 1: problem is that it's a lot easier to minimize behaviors
Speaker 1: that you're engaging in if there wasn't a clear definition
Speaker 1: of what cheating is, as you could rationalize in the moment,
Speaker 1: this isn't cheating. So I do encourage clients and just
Speaker 1: people to define cheating both physical and emotional. So the emotional,
Speaker 1: because it's so gray, gets people kind of stuck a
Speaker 1: little bit. But I would like, even with physical, what
Speaker 1: if your partner made out with someone at the bar
Speaker 1: but they were drunk? Is that cheating? You know, where
Speaker 1: do you draw the line? Like what would constitute cheating?
Speaker 1: And emotional as well? It's like when is it just
Speaker 1: a friendship? And when is when is that ting.
Speaker 4: But I was drunk? It's not a total out, but
Speaker 4: it allows some things. And then you have to deal
Speaker 4: with the drunk the how often are you drunk? And
Speaker 4: why are you drunk?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then for the latter Mary talked about transparency,
Speaker 1: which is the big one. But because the brain is traumatized,
Speaker 1: like one absolute necessity for healing is concrete actions that
Speaker 1: are based on what the uh non cheater needs in
Speaker 1: order to heal. And so basically I mean anything from
Speaker 1: and like I actually wrote a blog like fifty things
Speaker 1: you have a right to ask for from a cheating partner,
Speaker 1: and I got some backslash from some people that they're like,
Speaker 1: this is so controlling, and you know, I mean a
Speaker 1: lot of it was taken from my clients and things
Speaker 1: that we brainstormed to see would this help you? And
Speaker 1: so I mean sometimes like my clients, if they cheated
Speaker 1: before work, you know, they would map out how long
Speaker 1: it would take the partner to get to work, and
Speaker 1: they would call from the office phone so that the
Speaker 1: you know, the part the other spouse would know, Okay,
Speaker 1: they actually are where they say they are, they're at work.
Speaker 1: I had one couple where the husband because he cheated
Speaker 1: at work as well, like when he was at work,
Speaker 1: he just had his zum on the whole day, and
Speaker 1: it was very comforting to the wife to be able
Speaker 1: to see that, you know, he was at a desk
Speaker 1: or when he went out to launch. He would take
Speaker 1: photos of his food and make sure to include the
Speaker 1: hairy arms of his coworkers, so his wife knew that
Speaker 1: he was with me.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I know.
Speaker 4: And then if you have to do that, then I
Speaker 4: feel like the trust is so broken that I don't
Speaker 4: know the thing is.
Speaker 1: But this isn't forever. That's I think like where people
Speaker 1: get hung up, it's literally because you don't know. Like
Speaker 1: trust has been broken. It has been so broken that
Speaker 1: the person who cheated has to spend a significant amount
Speaker 1: of time to tell, like to show, not tell, but
Speaker 1: to show their partner what I say I'm doing, I
Speaker 1: am doing, So how are you going to do that? Like, Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm not texting the affair partner, here's my phone. Or
Speaker 1: I'm not paying for hookers with cash, here's the check. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're going to see how much I get paid in
Speaker 1: my check through work, so you can see and hear
Speaker 1: the bank statement. So I'm not withdrawn any cash to
Speaker 1: pay for massage parlors or hookers in Vegas. Jesus, this
Speaker 1: is what you have to do, and it's really comforting
Speaker 1: because as soon as some like some of that stuff
Speaker 1: doesn't happen, the person gets triggered and then they go
Speaker 1: into a tailspin. And that's where you know what you said,
Speaker 1: that empathy piece, that remorse when you see just how
Speaker 1: much this has affected the person who has been cheated on,
Speaker 1: Like if you don't feel remorse, then you're probably a sociopath.
Speaker 4: So I was talking to somebody I knew the other
Speaker 4: day and she was talking about I think she was
Speaker 4: talking about how she met her second husband, and she goes,
Speaker 4: I had an affair with him while I was married,
Speaker 4: And I go, how long did the affair go on?
Speaker 4: And she goes two years, and I go two years
Speaker 4: and she goes. The sneaking around over that long made
Speaker 4: us so close. It was almost like they were bonded
Speaker 4: in this skullduggery, in this gambit it trying to get around,
Speaker 4: And she's like, that was part of event. You know,
Speaker 4: they didn't work out either, but part of it was that,
Speaker 4: like they were brought together in this trying to keep
Speaker 4: it secret, which the whole thing doesn't seem good, but
Speaker 4: that was her answer, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I don't know if the statistic still stands,
Speaker 1: but I believe seventy five percent of marriages to the
Speaker 1: affair partner and in divorce. Oh good, Yeah, yeah, Prisi. Yes,
Speaker 1: it fuels passion, and you take that relationship and then
Speaker 1: you put it into the boring routine of everyday life.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the fun once the fun of the affair, and
Speaker 4: this is something new and fresh whatever goes away and
Speaker 4: you're right back where you started. Then you look at
Speaker 4: oh my god, what did I blow up in the
Speaker 4: first place to get here? And then is this a
Speaker 4: new pattern? Yeah, it's all messy. I'm bringing it up
Speaker 4: because I see a lot of it, and I see
Speaker 4: you know you you smacked my hand when I said
Speaker 4: flippancy about it. But I do see a little bit
Speaker 4: of carelessness about it. And maybe that's because I see
Speaker 4: more of it in the women and a little bit
Speaker 4: as the rise of the independent women, like I'm going
Speaker 4: to own my sexuality.
Speaker 3: I'm going to be like him, and I'm not getting
Speaker 3: what I want.
Speaker 4: At home and my husband is playing video games and
Speaker 4: fuck him, and I'm going to get what's mine, And
Speaker 4: so that has that does look a little bit different
Speaker 4: to me now. And I think a lot of people
Speaker 4: got trapped with their spouses and COVID and didn't have
Speaker 4: sex with for three years, and you know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think part of it is I
Speaker 1: mean there's I do see more entitlement, but I also
Speaker 1: think it's what do people expect out of their marriages?
Speaker 1: Right is I mean marriage has changed over the last
Speaker 1: one hundred and two hundred years where I mean, now
Speaker 1: we play so much. We just play so much on
Speaker 1: our partners to fulfill all of our needs, right, and
Speaker 1: so it's like, well, if I'm not getting it there,
Speaker 1: I'm going to get it somewhere else. And yeah, I
Speaker 1: would rather just clients or just people have conversations with
Speaker 1: their partner around marriage or like what are their expectations,
Speaker 1: what can be met, what cannot be met, and if
Speaker 1: you need to go outside of the relationship, like let's
Speaker 1: say even oh, my partner doesn't have all the same interests. Okay,
Speaker 1: well you could have separate interests. That's great, but just
Speaker 1: be mindful so that you're not falling into an affair.
Speaker 3: A lot of.
Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of people, especially women, get married or
Speaker 4: go into marriage not caring that it's going to last
Speaker 4: forever and not even thinking about it or even knowing
Speaker 4: Like he asked me and I said, yes, so we'll
Speaker 4: see how it works out. Which when you're going into
Speaker 4: a relationship that way, that this is not the be
Speaker 4: all and end all whatever, you are always kind of
Speaker 4: looking for a side door.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that could be also someone's attachment style,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean I call them safety net affairs
Speaker 1: where someone isn't exactly sure if the relationship is going
Speaker 1: to work out, so they want like a backup plan.
Speaker 1: They need a safety net just in case. But that
Speaker 1: usually comes from anxiety.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there are backup plans, there are escapes, there are distractions,
Speaker 4: there's all kinds of reasons. Why why people do it?
Speaker 4: I'm not saying I'm sure it's happened to you. I'm
Speaker 4: sure it's happened to just about everybody. And it sucks
Speaker 4: to do it. It sucks to have it be done to.
Speaker 4: You know, we can justify and try and sweep a out.
Speaker 3: Of it under the rug.
Speaker 4: But I don't know. Maybe I'm older and more judgmental. Now,
Speaker 4: just break up? Just break up easier said than done sometimes,
Speaker 4: but you know, or go.
Speaker 1: See Anita, Yeah, come see me. I mean, I know
Speaker 1: that's the easy or I think that's what society. The
Speaker 1: feedback that society gives is, well, why wouldn't you just
Speaker 1: break up? Why wouldn't you just leave? And I just
Speaker 1: to me, after working with infidelity for over eighteen years,
Speaker 1: it's not that black and white. And a lot of
Speaker 1: times people there is enough good stuff in their relationship
Speaker 1: or their marriage.
Speaker 3: I agree.
Speaker 1: Yeah, people don't want to see their kids, they don't
Speaker 1: want to split time with their kids, don't see them
Speaker 1: every other weekend, and so it's not that easy. I
Speaker 1: would say if if like I think, you know, if
Speaker 1: I could, if I could get Another tip is if
Speaker 1: your partner keeps bringing something up that is really important
Speaker 1: to them in the relationship, your responsibility is to listen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I guess happened, like I have brought it up.
Speaker 1: Nothing's changed, nothing's changed. And so the even though the
Speaker 1: person didn't cheat, they do have they do have to
Speaker 1: take responsibility for creating the conditions for the affair happening.
Speaker 4: And I think, again, not to defend the cheater, but
Speaker 4: sometimes I think they might be if I can just
Speaker 4: have this moment, this vacation, this trip, this trip to Italy,
Speaker 4: and have sex with two people, will I will get
Speaker 4: that out of my system and I can go back
Speaker 4: to being the loving husband, wife whatever. Like, I think
Speaker 4: that mindset might plan it too. So before you say, like,
Speaker 4: just break up, they might just be like, I need
Speaker 4: a break from this and then I can deal with it.
Speaker 3: I respect that too, you know, I mean.
Speaker 1: Some people they do again, it could be a justification.
Speaker 1: You know, I look at all the variables, but they
Speaker 1: feel like they are a better partner if they I mean,
Speaker 1: and sometimes these might be just for sexy, like if
Speaker 1: they're getting sex at home, you know, in those instances.
Speaker 1: I kind of see those sometimes, But yeah, I agree.
Speaker 3: All right, How can anybody find you your book? Anything?
Speaker 3: You want to plug your old book?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and well I'm at Relationship Reality three one two
Speaker 1: dot com and then my book is on Amazon. First
Speaker 1: comes us, The Busy Couple's Guide to Lasting Love.
Speaker 3: There you go. See, there's hope in there somewhere, I know.
Speaker 1: And my instagram is Anita in Love.
Speaker 4: All right, Well, it's good to see you.
Speaker 3: You look great.
Speaker 4: I haven't seen you in a long time, and I
Speaker 4: hope nobody's offended by me saying that you or anybody
Speaker 4: listening as far as us like share, follow, Please review
Speaker 4: this podcas you reviews meing a lot in the podcasting ecosystem.
Speaker 3: Check out my other podcast that is All the Rage.
Speaker 3: It is called Dead to Me.
Speaker 4: It is a podcast about estrangement, which also involves a
Speaker 4: lot of trust issues.
Speaker 3: Apple, Spotify, wherever you.
Speaker 4: Get your podcasts on that Shoot me an email, Great love,
Speaker 4: Debate at gmail dot com. If you have questions, comments, thoughts,
Speaker 4: cheating stories, or whatever for me or Anita, go to
Speaker 4: Great Lovedebate dot com.
Speaker 3: Our live show, our last one. It is our last one.
Speaker 4: And you know I'm doing with my last Great Love
Speaker 4: Debate live, I'm doing one. It is December third, twenty
Speaker 4: twenty four. So if you're listening two and two twenty
Speaker 4: twenty six, you missed it. December third, twenty twenty four
Speaker 4: at the Boca black Box Center for the Arts, about
Speaker 4: four miles down the road from where I'm recording this.
Speaker 3: That's it. I'll continue this.
Speaker 4: Podcast forever, but as far as the live shows, unless
Speaker 4: they get paid a ton of money like Elton John,
Speaker 4: I'm done.
Speaker 3: So make it work. We've got a fabulous lineup. It's
Speaker 3: going to be really good.
Speaker 4: Great Love Debate dot com because, as always at the
Speaker 4: Great Love Debate, we never stop making love.
Speaker 3: See next time.
Speaker 2: The Great Love Debate. It's the Great Love Debate
Speaker 3: The Great Love Debate, It's the Great Love to be