WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.720 This is Pod Popular Podcast for the People. 2 00:00:08.599 --> 00:00:13.640 The Great Love Debate. It's the Great Love Debate, the 3 00:00:13.759 --> 00:00:15.080 Great Love Debate. 4 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:18.839 It's a Great Love to bab Hi again. Everyone, It's 5 00:00:18.879 --> 00:00:19.399 Brian Howie. 6 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:23.120 Welcome to the Great Love Debate, the world's number one 7 00:00:23.359 --> 00:00:26.120 dating and a relationship podcast since twenty fifteen. I am 8 00:00:26.120 --> 00:00:29.440 back here in the very fine studios of Pod Popular 9 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:32.439 Podcasts for the People. I'm at the uh what's known 10 00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:34.479 as the Pop Pod in the one in Boca Ratone. 11 00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:39.079 It is very luxurious. What I want to get into 12 00:00:39.159 --> 00:00:41.640 today is not that luxurious. 13 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:42.399 I can't. 14 00:00:42.520 --> 00:00:44.240 I don't think i've ever I've done, you know, almost 15 00:00:44.280 --> 00:00:46.600 five hundred episodes of this podcast. I don't think I've 16 00:00:46.640 --> 00:00:53.320 ever done an entire episode related to this. It's tough 17 00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:56.960 to bring up. It's painful for people. It's touched on 18 00:00:56.960 --> 00:00:58.640 on a lot of our podcasts and a lot of 19 00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:02.759 the relationships things that that we get into. But I 20 00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:06.599 have noticed that it is it is a rampant problem, 21 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:11.799 and that is the issue of cheating, fidelity. 22 00:01:11.879 --> 00:01:13.640 And I travel a lot for business. 23 00:01:13.640 --> 00:01:16.920 I travel a lot for this podcast, and I stay 24 00:01:16.920 --> 00:01:18.760 in a lot of hotels, and I stay in a 25 00:01:18.799 --> 00:01:22.599 lot of you know, mid range business hotels. So I'm 26 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:26.359 in you know, Hilton's and Hyatts and Marriott's, and the 27 00:01:26.439 --> 00:01:28.599 scene in those hotels and in the bars and in 28 00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:32.799 the restaurants where there are people with badges on and 29 00:01:32.920 --> 00:01:36.400 rings in their pockets and quickly calling home to check 30 00:01:36.439 --> 00:01:40.319 in with their husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend, and then acting 31 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:43.040 like the husband, wife, boyfriend, girlfriend does not exist. 32 00:01:42.840 --> 00:01:44.640 In the world, and doing whatever they want to do 33 00:01:45.239 --> 00:01:48.719 as somebody who is not married. 34 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:51.760 I'm always like, is the wife husband okay? With just 35 00:01:51.799 --> 00:01:53.640 that quick phone call and that's all they want? Is 36 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:54.400 that their deal? 37 00:01:54.920 --> 00:01:55.599 Is that okay? 38 00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:57.879 Do they know what's going on? I have a million 39 00:01:58.000 --> 00:01:59.879 questions on this. I go to I've been to some 40 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:04.680 and youth sports games with friends of mine and mom 41 00:02:04.719 --> 00:02:07.079 and dad hate each other, but they're like flirting with 42 00:02:07.120 --> 00:02:10.280 the friends, the kids, friends, and anyway, a lot to 43 00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:10.680 get into. 44 00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:13.000 I couldn't navigate this to myself. I have to bring 45 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:13.719 in a pro for this. 46 00:02:13.840 --> 00:02:16.280 Not that she's a cheating pro, but she is a 47 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:20.039 pro on really understanding this landscape. Those of you who've 48 00:02:20.039 --> 00:02:22.000 listened to this podcast for a long long time, you've 49 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:24.159 heard her on here before. She's been on my stage 50 00:02:24.199 --> 00:02:28.159 many many times. She is the author of First Comes Us? 51 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:31.680 Is that right? She's therapist. 52 00:02:31.759 --> 00:02:33.080 She's got a new book coming out that I'm not 53 00:02:33.080 --> 00:02:36.520 going to tell you about, but she really is passionate 54 00:02:36.520 --> 00:02:38.400 about this weird subject too. 55 00:02:38.560 --> 00:02:40.719 My old friend, Anita Chapala, how are you? 56 00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:43.159 I'm doing great? How are you doing? 57 00:02:44.120 --> 00:02:46.840 Am I wrong to think cheating is? I don't know 58 00:02:46.879 --> 00:02:51.919 if the word normalized is ever, but it is. It's pandemic, 59 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:55.439 it is. I feel like there's more of it. I 60 00:02:55.479 --> 00:02:58.000 feel like husbands and wives and boyfriends or girlfriends are 61 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:00.840 a lot more distant and checked out. I feel like 62 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:04.680 people are looking for stimuli from other places. I feel 63 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:08.319 like there's a flippancy about it, but the pain of 64 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:13.039 it and the dishonesty of it it's real. 65 00:03:14.840 --> 00:03:18.080 Yeah, I mean I don't necessarily see a flippancy to it. 66 00:03:19.439 --> 00:03:21.759 I mean I think just the clients that come to 67 00:03:21.800 --> 00:03:24.800 me obviously are looking to see if they can heal 68 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:29.159 and repair their relationship. But I have had the flippancy 69 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:32.479 I do sometimes see is if someone doesn't like if 70 00:03:32.479 --> 00:03:37.400 there's a difference between two partners considering when they disagree 71 00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:40.560 on their either definition of cheating or one partner is 72 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:43.719 engaging in some behaviors that they think are fine, but 73 00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:47.240 partner be views it as disrespectful. So then there could 74 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:51.280 be some minimization, deflecting, gaslighting, you know, things like that. 75 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:53.879 But I do agree with you. In our practice, and 76 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:56.680 especially for me because I do specialize in infidelity, we 77 00:03:56.879 --> 00:04:01.120 have seen a huge increase in cases coming to us. 78 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:03.680 Yeah, and you know, traditionally it was the men who 79 00:04:03.680 --> 00:04:05.479 were the cheaters, because the men are the ones who 80 00:04:06.120 --> 00:04:09.680 allegedly had the opportunities they were traveling on business and whatever. 81 00:04:10.800 --> 00:04:12.840 And just to be clear here, if you go back 82 00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:16.279 to my twenties, any of my old girlfriends, I was 83 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:19.759 probably no saint on this subject matter a long time ago, 84 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:25.959 and I was cheated on and it was you know, 85 00:04:26.040 --> 00:04:29.680 when it happened to me, it was the most painful 86 00:04:29.720 --> 00:04:34.199 experience I ever went through, the questioning that dishonest thing. 87 00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:35.160 And the person who cheated on. 88 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:39.000 Me had had such a serious cheating thing happened to 89 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:41.160 her twenty years prior that. I thought, if you were 90 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:43.759 ever good this it so damaged her and it's probably 91 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:46.360 damaged her to this day. It affected her marriage, it 92 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:49.240 affected her relationships, She had trust issues, she had resentment issues, 93 00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:50.920 she had all kinds of things that I was like, 94 00:04:51.079 --> 00:04:53.120 there's no way this person would do that. 95 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:56.000 You just can never say that. You just never know. 96 00:04:56.360 --> 00:04:58.519 And that's why part of it is is the hurt, 97 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:01.319 the guilt, the shock, the and I was even somebody 98 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:03.959 even told me, like one of her you know, anonymous 99 00:05:04.040 --> 00:05:06.560 or friend or somebody said hey, you know they're cheating 100 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:09.000 on you and gave specific details about it. I was 101 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:11.240 so like, there's no way that would ever happen. I 102 00:05:11.519 --> 00:05:13.839 protected her. I was like, no, that, there's no way 103 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:15.560 that didn't happen. And I was like, you know, somebody's 104 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:18.160 trying to make you feel bad. That's how shocking it 105 00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:20.519 was to me. And so until it happens to you, 106 00:05:21.720 --> 00:05:23.639 I don't think I ever even went back and looked 107 00:05:23.639 --> 00:05:25.920 at my terrible behavior in my twenties that you know, oh, 108 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:27.959 you're on spring break and your girlfriend at college's home 109 00:05:28.000 --> 00:05:28.600 and you may out with. 110 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:31.120 Somebody at Cancun. It's not good. 111 00:05:31.839 --> 00:05:33.879 But a lot of times cheating comes from a place 112 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:37.399 of a cry for help. I'm not satisfied at home, 113 00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:41.720 both partners probably sharing it to some degree, lack of communication. 114 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:45.120 It's very rarely just I need to go get laid right. 115 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:48.560 Yeah, I mean, well, I'm sorry that happened to you. 116 00:05:49.319 --> 00:05:53.040 And yes, I think sometimes my clients, and I think 117 00:05:53.079 --> 00:05:56.439 even in Esther Pearl's book The State of Affairs, that 118 00:05:56.920 --> 00:06:01.240 cheating is kind of being like the worst thing that 119 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:05.040 can happen to a couple, even over divorce. So it 120 00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:08.639 is really devastating. I mean, people experience PTSD symptoms. I 121 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:13.519 treat it as a trauma and so you know, And yes, 122 00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:16.160 I think it is difficult for some people to empathize 123 00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:20.160 until they are actually going through it, which obviously I 124 00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:22.199 would not recommend for anyone just to be able to 125 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:25.040 have empathy with their partner. But there could be a 126 00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:27.199 lot of reasons. I mean, one, you know, we do 127 00:06:27.319 --> 00:06:30.519 we are seeing an increase in female and fidelity. And 128 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:34.279 then two you would think that someone would not want 129 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:37.399 to inflict the same pain, But there could be, you know, 130 00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:39.839 a number of reasons why you're ex did what she did. 131 00:06:40.720 --> 00:06:43.720 Yeah, I know, And you know, people who operate from 132 00:06:43.720 --> 00:06:47.519 a place of pain don't always make rational decisions. And 133 00:06:47.639 --> 00:06:49.720 we're a lot of us are operating from a place 134 00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:55.480 of pain. But what I've noticed is a lot of 135 00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:58.079 times people are just not being heard in the home. 136 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:00.680 A lot of the women I know who are. 137 00:07:01.519 --> 00:07:03.079 I'm not gonna say they're cheaters. 138 00:07:02.680 --> 00:07:04.759 But women who are doing things who I know are 139 00:07:04.839 --> 00:07:08.480 married and they're in adulterous affairs. Their husbands do not 140 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:13.120 make them feel desired. Their tension in the house, as 141 00:07:13.160 --> 00:07:14.759 I've said many times on the show, is a problem. 142 00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:16.560 When you go from husband wife to mom and dad. 143 00:07:16.600 --> 00:07:18.879 There's a lot of that intimacy that has gone and 144 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:21.800 some people just need anywhere from a flirt to a 145 00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:24.639 hug to a bed and they're crying out. 146 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:26.439 And that's why I know you work with people to 147 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:27.360 try and repair it. 148 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:30.680 You think it has not absolutely fataled every relationship if 149 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:33.399 you go back and see how the elements played into 150 00:07:33.439 --> 00:07:36.720 this and what part each person took, because it's rarely 151 00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:38.199 one hundred zero right. 152 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:43.439 Yes, However, I mean you also want to be careful 153 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:46.680 because happy people can cheat. And I have had those 154 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:50.920 clients on my caseload where they could say, you know, 155 00:07:51.040 --> 00:07:54.800 I'm feeling pretty good with my marriage and I'm feeling great. 156 00:07:55.240 --> 00:07:59.120 So the vast majority, yes, I agree with you that 157 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:03.519 there is maybe something that was missing in the relationship, 158 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:08.680 the lack of attention, disconnection, not feeling desired one hundred percent. 159 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:12.199 But it doesn't explain away all of the reasons why 160 00:08:12.279 --> 00:08:16.680 people cheat. There's not The relationship doesn't always have to 161 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:19.600 be bad or quote unquote broken in order to give 162 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:21.000 a person or reason to cheat. 163 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:24.199 So you just said happy people cheat. Explain that, what 164 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:24.560 are those? 165 00:08:24.600 --> 00:08:27.600 But how does that? I'm sure it happens, but explain that. 166 00:08:27.639 --> 00:08:31.240 Well, here's one example. So I actually worked with this couple. 167 00:08:32.559 --> 00:08:37.600 They just on typical relationship stuff, typical marital stuff, and 168 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:41.679 they came back to me for a few sessions because 169 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:47.519 the husband ended up having a kind of emotional affair 170 00:08:47.879 --> 00:08:52.120 with an ex girlfriend from like twenty years prior, and 171 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:56.120 so they started messaging, and then he minimized the whole 172 00:08:56.159 --> 00:08:59.600 time because he goes, this doesn't mean anything. You know 173 00:08:59.720 --> 00:09:02.200 she you know, I'm happy in my marriage. She lives 174 00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:05.919 halfway around the world. Just really kind of looked at 175 00:09:05.919 --> 00:09:08.399 it from a more logical standpoint, and the wife was 176 00:09:08.440 --> 00:09:11.320 so upset. She's like, you were rehashing your feelings. You 177 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:14.000 told her you would always love her. And one of 178 00:09:14.039 --> 00:09:16.200 the things that came out of it was that this 179 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:19.799 woman ended up sending him some racy photos and he 180 00:09:19.960 --> 00:09:23.080 was like this is great. I've never gotten racy photos before, 181 00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:28.120 and so he was happy. There was just again minimizing 182 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:32.840 and not really paying attention to your falling down this 183 00:09:32.919 --> 00:09:36.120 slippery slope. You're making yourself vulnerable here and it ended 184 00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:39.639 up breaking trust. And so when I look at infidelity, 185 00:09:39.759 --> 00:09:42.399 I actually look at it in two parts. I look 186 00:09:42.440 --> 00:09:48.240 at protection of the relationship, and that's stuff like defining cheating, 187 00:09:48.799 --> 00:09:52.559 looking at your boundaries, how are you engaging in the relationship, 188 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:55.759 how are you as a couple protecting your relationship? And 189 00:09:55.799 --> 00:09:58.360 then I look at the second piece, which it's satisfaction. 190 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:00.519 And then that's some of the stuff that you talking about. 191 00:10:00.559 --> 00:10:04.600 There might be something that has been missing in the relationship. 192 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:08.799 Yeah, And and then you know a lot of times, 193 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:11.720 you know, there's there's two kinds. I kind of look 194 00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:15.440 at somebody who you're in the workplace with and you 195 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:18.279 share a cubicle with, and you actually spend more awake 196 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:21.559 time with that person than you probably do your partner, 197 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:23.759 and you flirt and you hang out and whatever, and 198 00:10:23.799 --> 00:10:26.840 there becomes a closeness. And I'm not saying boundaries or 199 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:30.799 ever cross, but there's this emotional attachment to a colleague 200 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:32.080 or a coworker that happens. 201 00:10:32.879 --> 00:10:33.519 Then there is. 202 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:35.799 People though that are just like on the road for 203 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:39.120 business or traveling on a golf trip or whatever, and 204 00:10:39.159 --> 00:10:42.960 they're like, I am so disconnected from my home life. 205 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:45.919 This is just a distraction. This is separate. 206 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:48.200 This has just checked out that they don't look at 207 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:50.120 the repercussions of what's going on at home. 208 00:10:51.360 --> 00:10:54.919 And they probably also don't think they're going to get caught, and. 209 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:56.600 They think they're not going to get caught. I know. 210 00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:01.039 And uh, one of the well of the common things 211 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:04.720 that I see with my clients, especially the latter scenario, 212 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:09.480 is that they are really good at compartmentalizing their lives 213 00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:13.399 where they do separate it. They do view whatever they 214 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:16.639 do on work trips or when they're not home like 215 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:19.360 I mean, I've even had some clients rationalize it as 216 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:21.120 it doesn't count as cheating because it's not in the 217 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:21.679 same state. 218 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.000 I mean, people rationalize all kinds of emotions and behaviors. Yeah, 219 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:31.039 I know, And a lot of times the partner is 220 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:34.679 okay with it as long as they come home eventually, 221 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:36.960 or as long as they continue to be a good dad, 222 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:38.440 or as long as they come back to me and 223 00:11:38.440 --> 00:11:40.159 share the bed or whatever. They're like, if this is 224 00:11:40.200 --> 00:11:41.840 what they need to do, get out of the system, 225 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:45.120 sort of the old fashioned you know, the goumar. 226 00:11:46.840 --> 00:11:48.120 It's not healthy. 227 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:50.679 But you know, Brian, I don't know if I would 228 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:53.399 use the word a lot. I mean, I don't know 229 00:11:53.399 --> 00:11:56.080 who you hang out with, but my clients are definitely 230 00:11:56.120 --> 00:12:00.200 not okay with it. I mean, unless they're specific, they're 231 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:03.440 not okay if someone if their partner goes then cheats 232 00:12:03.440 --> 00:12:07.559 on them when they're on a trip. Like I mean, 233 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:12.279 people again, another characteristic of people who cheat, and I 234 00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:16.279 think sometimes the other partner as well, is there's a 235 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:19.960 lot of conflict avoidance going on. So I think there's more. 236 00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:22.039 Maybe we don't talk about it, or people don't talk 237 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:25.120 about sex, or they don't talk about the problems in 238 00:12:25.159 --> 00:12:28.600 the relationship. But the reactions that people have when they 239 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:31.639 find out that their partner cheated, they I mean, they're 240 00:12:31.679 --> 00:12:32.480 not okay with it. 241 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:35.559 No, I'm saying a lot is probably a strong word. 242 00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:37.279 But there's a lot of women are like, I'm tired. 243 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:40.159 Let him touch anybody, just not me, Like I don't care, 244 00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:43.039 I don't find him attractive anymore. Like there's a lot 245 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:45.960 of that, But you brought up early earlier, that is 246 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:49.120 somehow more traumatic than divorce. I think you're right. If 247 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:51.679 the divorce comes as a result of cheating, that's different. 248 00:12:51.879 --> 00:12:54.000 But if divorce just comes from we don't like each 249 00:12:54.039 --> 00:12:57.000 other and we're not getting along or whatever the cheating, 250 00:12:57.200 --> 00:13:00.559 generally one of the partners still or both still have 251 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:05.559 some emotional attachment there, and that's what has blown up 252 00:13:05.600 --> 00:13:09.080 more than divorce, which can be logistical and financial. 253 00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:13.559 Yeah, and sometimes I mean, I would say maybe, although 254 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:16.320 I have worked with clients where a divorce just seemed 255 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:19.320 out of the blue. For the most part, clients kind 256 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:21.799 of know if the relationship has had or the marriage 257 00:13:21.840 --> 00:13:25.200 is headed that way. But with infidelity kind of like 258 00:13:25.240 --> 00:13:27.519 what you said, how shocked you were, right, there's no 259 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:32.000 way or someone who like, let's say both partners were suffering. 260 00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:35.559 So it makes the non cheating partner even more angry 261 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:38.720 because they're like, I was dealing with the same things 262 00:13:38.759 --> 00:13:39.519 that you were. 263 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:40.960 And and I didn't cheat. 264 00:13:41.240 --> 00:13:44.720 Yeah, you know, I say for you. 265 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:47.960 But the person who you know, everybody is sort of 266 00:13:47.960 --> 00:13:49.960 looking out for their own best interest in the moment. 267 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:53.879 And I remember what she said to me at the time, 268 00:13:54.039 --> 00:13:57.600 like it just happened, and I'm like, it just doesn't happen. 269 00:13:57.720 --> 00:14:01.000 This is like a multi hour day a thing like 270 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:02.039 it just doesn't happen. 271 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:05.480 And you know, people. 272 00:14:06.639 --> 00:14:08.720 Want to justify behavior, they want to compart in my line, 273 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:10.320 they want to deal with But again, I'm not trying 274 00:14:10.360 --> 00:14:13.080 to let anybody off the hook on this, including myself. 275 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:15.399 People look for. 276 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:17.639 Alcohol, they look for drugs, they look for sex, they 277 00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:20.200 look for an escape from whatever pain they're in or 278 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:23.519 their reality. And sometimes when you're in a relationship and 279 00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:26.399 you were like a real relationship, not just like we 280 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:28.360 date on Saturday night when it's all fun, like you're 281 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:30.679 dealing with kids and you're dealing with work and you're 282 00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:33.240 dealing with stress, a lot of times you don't feel 283 00:14:33.240 --> 00:14:34.679 like boyfriend girlfriend at the end of the day. You 284 00:14:34.679 --> 00:14:36.480 don't feel like husband wife at the end of the day, 285 00:14:36.919 --> 00:14:39.440 and you need to go back to feeling flirty and 286 00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:42.000 good again. And that's why some of these women and 287 00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:44.759 men send pictures. They want somebody to tell them, oh 288 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:47.039 my god, you're so hot. You look so hot that 289 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:49.759 maybe after you've been in a relationship for two, five, ten, 290 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:52.559 twenty years, you're not getting that on a regular basis, 291 00:14:52.840 --> 00:14:54.240 so I'm gonna get into more of this. I want 292 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:56.080 to talk about how we communicate both on the front 293 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:57.720 side and the backside to try and avoid this. I'm 294 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:00.240 with Anita Chilpola. She is I hate to say, you're 295 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:03.399 an expert on cheating. You're fascinated by the subject matter, 296 00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:07.000 and again I'm not. I it really bothers me on 297 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:09.080 all sides of it and how often I see it. 298 00:15:09.120 --> 00:15:11.399 But you know it's none of my business. But we 299 00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:14.600 are talking about this. We will be right back after this, 300 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:22.159 and we are back. Almost every breakdown in a relationship 301 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:25.840 comes down to communication, and people are not being heard. 302 00:15:26.360 --> 00:15:31.840 People are not respecting their partners wishes, thoughts, conversations, cries 303 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:36.159 for help when the cheating happens and they come to 304 00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:40.519 see you, if they both come to see you willingly, 305 00:15:40.679 --> 00:15:41.080 and I'm not. 306 00:15:41.080 --> 00:15:42.000 Sure that's always the case. 307 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:46.159 They come to you because they want an explanation, they 308 00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:48.200 want somebody else to hear them out, They want to 309 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:48.919 repair it. 310 00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:51.919 Is the what is the reason all of those. 311 00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:55.519 Yeah, I mean, if they if they both want to 312 00:15:55.559 --> 00:15:57.720 come in, or if they both come in and they 313 00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:00.679 both want to make the marriage work, or in a relationship, 314 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:03.480 because not everybody is married. I do work with non 315 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:09.200 married couples as well. Then they want to know how 316 00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:12.200 this happened, why it happened, like how do you get 317 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:17.240 to this point? And then healing, rebuilding, and then making 318 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:21.039 the relationship or marriage better than it's ever been. So 319 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:23.120 those are the kind steps. And I also I have 320 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:27.000 people who come in individually and they're not sure, like 321 00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:29.639 either you know, they want to know why they cheated, 322 00:16:29.960 --> 00:16:31.759 or they want to know if they should stay with 323 00:16:31.799 --> 00:16:35.279 a partner who cheated. And sometimes I do have mixed couples, 324 00:16:35.279 --> 00:16:39.279 like I actually just saw one this morning where the 325 00:16:39.759 --> 00:16:41.759 husband wants to make the marriage work and the wife 326 00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:44.600 is unsure. And sometimes I have couples who come in, well. 327 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:45.840 Way, was a husband the cheater? 328 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:51.759 No he was not, Yeah, the wife was yeah. But 329 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:55.519 and even when people don't know, so the other thing 330 00:16:55.639 --> 00:16:58.759 is like people don't know what they don't know. I mean, yes, 331 00:16:58.840 --> 00:17:01.039 I do specialize and in fidelity, but I've also been 332 00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:04.519 a couple's therapists for over eighteen years, and so there's 333 00:17:04.519 --> 00:17:08.440 also just typical couple stuff like you mentioned communication, Brian. 334 00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:10.279 I started keeping track of this a long time ago. 335 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:13.079 One hundred percent of our couples, every single one of them. 336 00:17:13.119 --> 00:17:15.480 When we ask them in the initial consultation, what is 337 00:17:15.519 --> 00:17:19.920 your goal, they'll say communication, like every single one. And 338 00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:22.839 sometimes it's like, it's not about communication. Sure, I could 339 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:26.519 give you some skills and tools to help you, but 340 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:29.759 a lot of times what it comes down to is 341 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:35.640 really managing differences in relationships. And even more importantly, and 342 00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:40.480 probably the most importantly, is safety and security in a relationship. 343 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:43.240 And by that I also mean connection. Like a lot 344 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:46.079 of our couples fight about connection and they don't realize 345 00:17:46.079 --> 00:17:48.039 that they're doing it, and then they just blow up 346 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:50.880 their marriages. So when you talk about some of these, 347 00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:53.480 you know, even though it's not always the case, if 348 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:58.160 the relationship is a symptom of infidelity, then yes, there's 349 00:17:58.240 --> 00:18:01.839 probably some things that could have been fixed, especially connection, 350 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:04.680 because a lot of times people will you know that 351 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:08.440 that disconnection happens and it's not overnight, but it takes years. 352 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:10.839 Like you said, if it's you know, you have kids 353 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:12.920 and you have stressors, then you don't have time for 354 00:18:13.000 --> 00:18:15.119 each other. The last thing you want to do is 355 00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:18.039 make love to your partner after a sixteen hour day 356 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:19.920 where the kids are crying and you had vomita on 357 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:24.240 your shirt. You know, people don't feel sexy, and you know, 358 00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:26.160 I always look at like, well, what did the affair 359 00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:28.039 do for you? Or what did the cheating like? Who 360 00:18:28.079 --> 00:18:32.400 were you in this affair? And it's usually they're able 361 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:35.480 to be a way that they aren't in their relationship. 362 00:18:36.160 --> 00:18:40.680 Is it is it easier for a couple to repair 363 00:18:40.759 --> 00:18:47.799 it if the cheater is completely remorseful or is it 364 00:18:47.839 --> 00:18:50.440 easier to repair it if the cheater is very clear 365 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:53.440 as to why it happened, and then the couple can 366 00:18:53.519 --> 00:18:56.319 repair that? Does that make sense? 367 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:00.079 Well, you have to know, I mean, I'm sorry, it 368 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:01.400 only goes so far, you know. 369 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:06.680 Right, I mean you want you absolutely have to know. 370 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:10.000 The cheater has to know why they cheated in order 371 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:12.960 to make sure that it doesn't happen again, because then 372 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:16.279 how would the non cheating partner know it wouldn't. And 373 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:19.279 part of my job is to help the person figure 374 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:22.160 out why they did what they did and then close 375 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:27.920 those loops or those gaps. So for example, like if 376 00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:33.039 someone cheats because they didn't feel like they like just say, 377 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:36.759 they weren't getting enough attention, or they didn't feel sexy 378 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:40.079 or desired by their partner, but they didn't speak up, 379 00:19:40.119 --> 00:19:45.119 they avoided conflict. Then my job would be to, yes, 380 00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:50.000 teach them the tools or help them, like to communicate 381 00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:53.759 to their partner so that they would be able to 382 00:19:53.799 --> 00:19:56.839 get their needs met from their partner, or right to 383 00:19:56.960 --> 00:19:59.359 have the kind of sex life that they want where 384 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:01.960 they could feel feel sexy, like what does that look like? 385 00:20:02.079 --> 00:20:02.920 Cheating look like? 386 00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:06.839 Cheating's rarely about sex, though, is it. It's more about attension, 387 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:11.839 isn't it. Well, unless you're getting no sex, I think. 388 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:16.559 I think the popular belief is that cheating is about sex. 389 00:20:17.079 --> 00:20:20.640 But sometimes again it does come down to I'm not 390 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:24.599 getting anything at home. So yes, sometimes those are there 391 00:20:24.599 --> 00:20:28.680 are cases, but more more so I hear the I 392 00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:33.319 want to feel desired. Yeah, they want attention because you know, 393 00:20:33.319 --> 00:20:37.119 if they keep getting rejected at home, I mean the 394 00:20:37.319 --> 00:20:39.720 I think am I I'm not even a sex therapist, 395 00:20:39.799 --> 00:20:42.079 but in my opinion, sexual rejection is one of the 396 00:20:42.119 --> 00:20:47.839 worst to experience because when you I say, do sex right, 397 00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:51.000 then it's the most vulnerable that you could be because 398 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:56.559 you're literally naked, you're emotionally naked. You're just so vulnerable. 399 00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:00.559 And then to continue to be rejected. Did buy a 400 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:05.279 partner is probably the most brutal, Like I liken it too. 401 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:09.960