WEBVTT 1 00:00:24.399 --> 00:00:27.600 Hi, I'm doctor Shiloh and I'm doctor Scott. 2 00:00:27.519 --> 00:00:30.640 And this is La Not So Confidential, the forensic psychology 3 00:00:30.679 --> 00:00:32.200 and true crime podcast. 4 00:00:32.520 --> 00:00:35.799 Each episode we explore the intersection of psychology, the criminal 5 00:00:35.880 --> 00:00:37.320 justice system, and entertainment. 6 00:00:37.679 --> 00:00:41.200 Today our episode is on the forensic psychtopic of poisoning. 7 00:00:47.320 --> 00:00:50.840 Welcome back, everybody. It is our second to last episode 8 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:55.119 here for La Not So Confidential. How is that for you, 9 00:00:55.159 --> 00:00:56.079 Doctor Shiloh? 10 00:00:56.159 --> 00:00:57.159 That sounds really weird. 11 00:00:57.560 --> 00:01:02.479 It does, like literally only one more to research and record, 12 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:05.120 because of course our behind the Couch for the end 13 00:01:05.120 --> 00:01:07.280 of this month is already done as well. 14 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:09.599 I don't know, I don't know how I feel about it. 15 00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:12.159 Feels great and also sad. 16 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:15.280 I know, yeah, we can feel ambivalent about it, right 17 00:01:15.480 --> 00:01:17.359 like we I think we were very proud of what 18 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:20.560 we've accomplished over these eight years, and also where we're 19 00:01:20.599 --> 00:01:22.120 going to be going in the future, which is going 20 00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:24.239 to be fun, and neither of us know what that's 21 00:01:24.239 --> 00:01:24.599 going to be. 22 00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:27.640 I think that's the exciting part, kind of like daydreaming 23 00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:30.920 and fantasizing about what I will do with extra time 24 00:01:31.120 --> 00:01:35.200 and I don't know, just like scheduling wise and what 25 00:01:35.239 --> 00:01:37.599 we could put on our plate when we have had, 26 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:39.480 you know, a very good break. 27 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:42.640 So yeah, really I got a palette cleanse for our 28 00:01:42.680 --> 00:01:43.239 brain in a. 29 00:01:43.239 --> 00:01:48.239 Way, right, definitely, definitely, Well, today we're talking about poisonings, 30 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:53.159 but in episode twenty twelve we talked about stabbings sort of. 31 00:01:53.280 --> 00:01:57.280 I mean our topic was peakerism, a very specific sexual 32 00:01:57.319 --> 00:02:01.840 paraphilia often associated with serial murder cases. We covered some 33 00:02:01.959 --> 00:02:06.439 interesting historical cases and case studies and discussed whether or 34 00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:08.639 not we think pikurism was a factor in the Idaho 35 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:11.439 four case. So a good old fashioned, elle not so 36 00:02:11.479 --> 00:02:12.879 confidential episode for sure. 37 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:14.639 Please go back and listen if you haven't yet. 38 00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:17.319 And then in episode two thirteen, we had a great 39 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:20.800 interview with retired detective Mike Weber. He co wrote a 40 00:02:20.800 --> 00:02:23.759 book called The Mother next Door with Andrea Dunlop of 41 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:27.639 the podcast Nobody Should Believe Me. We discuss his expertise 42 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:32.199 and investigations of medical child abuse aka factitious disorder by proxy, 43 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:35.360 and talk about one of the cases highlighted in their book. 44 00:02:35.960 --> 00:02:38.840 Such a great interview, Please go back and listen, so 45 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:41.800 good if you haven't. It's just this whole other world 46 00:02:41.919 --> 00:02:45.719 of detective investigations, really specific. 47 00:02:45.479 --> 00:02:46.599 And he told us. 48 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:50.319 He's retired now, but he's continuing to train, which is awesome, which. 49 00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:52.520 Is great his expertise. And I will also say it's 50 00:02:52.520 --> 00:02:55.120 not often that we carve out time here to talk 51 00:02:55.159 --> 00:02:57.560 about podcasts you should go listen to. I mean we 52 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:00.479 suggest every once in a while, but I was not 53 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:03.919 familiar with nobody should believe me. Somehow that had slipped 54 00:03:03.960 --> 00:03:06.439 under my radar. And now I've been marathoning all the 55 00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:09.719 seasons for the last two weeks as I do my 56 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:12.360 field work, as I'm driving all over La County. It 57 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:15.319 is a roller coaster ride. The entire series is just 58 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:18.960 like a completely me yelling what the fuck over and 59 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:19.879 over again in the. 60 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:22.319 Car heavy staff. That's a lot to listen to on 61 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:23.319 that topic. 62 00:03:23.400 --> 00:03:26.240 I mean, the book was phenomenal and our conversation with 63 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:29.159 him was really good, So yeah, I can imagine that 64 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:31.520 the podcast is a lot but done really really well, 65 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:33.719 and it's been on the top of the charts for 66 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:37.680 years now. So well, I mean, should we get on 67 00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:39.719 with our second to last Forensic Sach episode. 68 00:03:40.039 --> 00:03:42.919 Let's jump into it. So we've got a classic here, 69 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:45.719 a lot of history, a lot of case examples for us, 70 00:03:45.879 --> 00:03:49.120 and full on personality disorders, So let's do it so. 71 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:53.120 The Oxford Dictionary defines poison as a substance that is 72 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:55.400 capable of causing the illness or death of a living 73 00:03:55.560 --> 00:03:59.000 organism when introduced or absorbed, And so for as long 74 00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:02.080 as people have had act to herbs, minerals, powders, and 75 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:05.000 various bits and pieces of the animal kingdom, they've had 76 00:04:05.000 --> 00:04:08.560 the power to heal and to harm. Most data about 77 00:04:08.639 --> 00:04:11.840 murders via poisoning use a definition of poisoning that includes 78 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:16.560 standard poison, but also murdering with a poisonous use of 79 00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:21.279 narcotics like sleeping pills. The FBI does not include poison 80 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:25.720 gas because that falls under the category of asphyxiation. Very 81 00:04:25.720 --> 00:04:30.199 interesting there. So most cases of poisoning involve one perpetrator 82 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:34.920 and one victim who know each other pretty well. Poisoning 83 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:38.399 is an intimate crime, and Hollywood loves showing us up 84 00:04:38.439 --> 00:04:41.839 pernicious powder slipped into a drink from a heavily jeweled ring, 85 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:44.879 a noxious nectar mixed with a salve, or a deadly 86 00:04:44.959 --> 00:04:48.519 draft mixed into a delicious dinner. Okay, that's enough alliteration 87 00:04:48.680 --> 00:04:53.000 right Across cultures, the line between cure and curse was 88 00:04:53.160 --> 00:04:56.240 razor thin. And in every age, societies have asked the 89 00:04:56.279 --> 00:05:01.000 same anxious question, who controls these powerful substances and what 90 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:04.879 happens when they choose to harm instead of heal? And yes, 91 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:07.959 I will take full responsibility for writing those terrible alliterations. 92 00:05:07.959 --> 00:05:10.600 I figured why not go out here at the end 93 00:05:10.680 --> 00:05:12.199 of our run with a purple prose? 94 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:14.759 Bang right, Okay, I'm glad you said that, so we 95 00:05:14.839 --> 00:05:15.560 knew it wasn't. 96 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:17.160 Chat gpt right. 97 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:20.879 Okay, So trigger warning for this episode. We don't get 98 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:23.480 into the nitty gritty of much, but of course we 99 00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:27.199 are talking about murder today, murder of family members, including 100 00:05:27.279 --> 00:05:31.399 children and the elderly. And then some descriptions and mentions 101 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:34.279 of illness as a result of poisoning in what people 102 00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:35.240 have gone through. 103 00:05:35.399 --> 00:05:38.439 So let's look back through the history books. The use 104 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:40.240 of poison as a way to end to life, both 105 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:42.839 instantly as well as through a grueling illness, has a 106 00:05:42.920 --> 00:05:45.879 long and significant history, particularly in the way that it 107 00:05:45.959 --> 00:05:49.639 is a hidden and surreptitious method that allows the poisoner 108 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:53.759 to hide their actions. Poisoning's long and often covert history 109 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:57.480 is a method of crime has evolved alongside societal shifts 110 00:05:57.839 --> 00:06:02.279 and scientific advancement in substance and the methods of implementation 111 00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:03.040 and delivery. 112 00:06:03.199 --> 00:06:07.279 In Egyptian texts, there are records of the use of snake, venom, hemlock, 113 00:06:07.439 --> 00:06:12.079 and opium for healing, assassination, and self harm within the 114 00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:17.199 famous story of Cleopatra experimenting with various toxins on royal 115 00:06:17.240 --> 00:06:20.759 prisoners before choosing the ASP as the most likely successful 116 00:06:20.839 --> 00:06:21.560 route to enter. 117 00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:22.360 Her own life. 118 00:06:22.519 --> 00:06:25.120 And in ancient India, poison wasn't just a weapon, it 119 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:29.079 was a specialized craft requiring a wide range of knowledge 120 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:33.439 and skill. Historical texts described the practice of raising vishakanyas 121 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:38.240 or poison maidens. Allegedly, these children from infancy were microdosed 122 00:06:38.279 --> 00:06:42.920 with poison until their very bodies became lethal. Their kisses 123 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:45.879 or even their touch was thought to be deadly. Indian 124 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:51.399 military texts also detail pragmatic tactics like contaminating enemy wells 125 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:55.519 and smearing arrows with toxins from snakes or rotting animal matter, 126 00:06:56.040 --> 00:07:00.800 basically biochemical warfare. The Chinese practice of gu poisoning arose 127 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:04.360 from a practice where venomous insects and snakes were sealed 128 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:08.839 in a vessel until only one survived. Allegedly, the resulting 129 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:12.639 tocsin was believed to cause wasting, illness, and enemies, and 130 00:07:12.800 --> 00:07:16.720 was considered a form of black magic, often linked to women, 131 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:21.399 of course and marginalized groups in southern China, and. 132 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:25.000 While their goals were different, Chinese emperors seeking immortality would 133 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:29.879 unknowingly cut their lives short by ingesting alchemical mixtures that 134 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:34.560 contained substances like mercury, arsenic, or lead, a practice that 135 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:38.439 bafflingly went on four centuries. I guess no one wants 136 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:40.879 to say no to an emperor, right, hm? 137 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:41.439 Weird? 138 00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:44.000 Yeah, very strange and current. 139 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:44.319 Right. 140 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:48.639 At the same time, Eastern traditional medicine sometimes successfully operated 141 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:52.279 on the principles that a practitioner used poison to attack 142 00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:56.360 poison a verified version of this or classical vaccinations for 143 00:07:56.519 --> 00:07:58.920 smallpox and the flu, and at the other end of 144 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:02.600 the medical spectrum are like homeopathy. At the same time, 145 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:06.480 Greek physicians such as Diascorides and Galen catalog poisonous plants 146 00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:11.000 alongside remedies, underscoring the often incorrect belief that the line 147 00:08:11.040 --> 00:08:14.480 between medicine and poison was razor thin and it was 148 00:08:14.519 --> 00:08:17.600 determined only by dosage and intent. 149 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:18.399 So if you. 150 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:21.800 Wanted someone dead. In ancient Rome, without drawing a sword, 151 00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:26.399 you reached for venium. That one little word could mean medicine, 152 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:30.399 a love potion, or straight up poison, and the Romans 153 00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:33.480 were so spooked by it that Sola wrote it right 154 00:08:33.559 --> 00:08:39.960 into law through the lex Cornelia descarsis at Venefesis in 155 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:44.879 eighty one BCE, making poisoning officially a crime. But it 156 00:08:44.919 --> 00:08:48.879 wasn't just legal theory. Rome had some very real poison scares. 157 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:52.559 Take three point thirty one BCE. Live tells us about 158 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:56.799 the so called Matrons poisoning panic, in which during a plague, 159 00:08:57.000 --> 00:09:00.159 dozens of elite women were accused of secretly mixing He's 160 00:09:00.200 --> 00:09:04.360 deadly poisons that were promoted as cures. Were they murderers 161 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:07.559 or victims of mass hysteria hard to say, but the 162 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:12.639 city responded with trials and executions, and mass hysteria turned 163 00:09:12.720 --> 00:09:16.320 the focus on women again. I mean, how many times 164 00:09:16.399 --> 00:09:17.360 have we talked about this. 165 00:09:17.720 --> 00:09:20.799 Over and over and over. At that time laws were 166 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:23.840 written against the practice of poisoning because the blur between 167 00:09:23.960 --> 00:09:27.679 medicine and magic. There were trials, executions, and political scandals 168 00:09:27.720 --> 00:09:30.279 often turned on the suspicion that someone had turned from 169 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:33.960 a pharmacist into an assassin. At a historical time when 170 00:09:34.000 --> 00:09:37.200 home remedies were often the first line of defense against illness, 171 00:09:37.600 --> 00:09:40.279 families were expected to have a wide range of ingredients 172 00:09:40.360 --> 00:09:42.919 right on hand. Fast forward a few centuries in a 173 00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:46.399 crime scene looks a lot more targeted and Imperial Emperor 174 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:50.879 Claudius dead after eating mushrooms served by his wife Agrippina. 175 00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:54.639 Tacitus and Suanitas both describe it. One version even has 176 00:09:54.679 --> 00:09:57.879 a doctor finishing him off with a poisoned feather. I mean, hey, 177 00:09:57.879 --> 00:09:59.759 he's almost dead. You can use that feather over there 178 00:09:59.759 --> 00:10:01.679 to see beat up the process, I guess. And then 179 00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:05.639 there's Lacusta, the professional poisoner. Nero basically kept her on 180 00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:09.120 a retainer in fifty five CE he wanted his rival 181 00:10:09.159 --> 00:10:12.519 Britannicus out of the way, and Tacitus says that Lacusta 182 00:10:12.600 --> 00:10:15.000 whipped up a brew that got slipped into his drink 183 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:19.440 and boom, Britannicus collapsed at the table. Lacusta became infamous, 184 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:23.480 the ancient world's first celebrity poisoner. She could have had 185 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:25.440 a whole episode on Dayline for sure. 186 00:10:25.879 --> 00:10:27.480 Yeah, definitely, I would watch that. 187 00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:33.600 So with the combination of these panicked, accusations, imperial intrigue, 188 00:10:33.639 --> 00:10:38.799 and basically professional hit jobs. Poisoning haunted Rome's imagination for 189 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:42.480 many years. So remember the lex Cornelia made sure to 190 00:10:42.519 --> 00:10:46.639 codify these crimes as punishable. Potion use could easily turn 191 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:50.320 into prosecution, and the punishments fit the crime. And of 192 00:10:50.360 --> 00:10:54.039 course the use of poison wasn't regulated just to Eastern 193 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:55.320 or Western so we. 194 00:10:55.279 --> 00:10:57.600 Started with an overview of criminal poison use in the 195 00:10:57.600 --> 00:11:00.480 ancient world. But here's where it gets even more interesting. 196 00:11:01.039 --> 00:11:04.960 The way religion and law turned poisoning, and that's where 197 00:11:04.960 --> 00:11:07.240 the term starts to get a little loose, turned it 198 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:10.679 into a tool for controlling women. You know that famous 199 00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:13.399 line from the King James Bible, thou shalt not suffer 200 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:16.279 a witch to live. But that word which isn't in 201 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:22.000 the original Hebrew, the text says macasifa, basically a female 202 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:25.879 ritual specialist. When it got translated into Greek, the word 203 00:11:25.960 --> 00:11:30.279 became pharmacose and that could mean healer, drug maker, potion mixer, 204 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:33.559 or poisoner, and by the time it hit Latin, it 205 00:11:33.639 --> 00:11:38.600 morphed into malificos or just evildoers, and the English translators 206 00:11:38.600 --> 00:11:41.080 of the sixteen hundreds living in the middle of a 207 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:44.720 witch panic settled on which so instead of broomsticks, we're 208 00:11:44.720 --> 00:11:47.840 really talking about people, often women, who knew how to 209 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:50.360 make potions. And in a world where medicines and poisons 210 00:11:50.440 --> 00:11:52.919 sat right next to each other in the same cabinet, 211 00:11:53.320 --> 00:11:58.200 that knowledge was terrifying to people. That anxiety shows up everywhere. 212 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:02.080 The existing Roman laws about thaneficium and the poison panic 213 00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:04.879 in the Middle Ages, and of course the witch trials. Yeah, 214 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:07.480 I mean that says everything about how seriously they took it. 215 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:12.559 Then in Renaissance Italy, poison became part of everyday political drama. 216 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:17.159 City records in Florence listed poison prices and contracts. There's 217 00:12:17.240 --> 00:12:20.759 the well known shadowy reputation of the entire Borgia family, 218 00:12:21.080 --> 00:12:25.279 with multiple members accused fairly or not, of lacing wine 219 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:28.399 with arsenic at banquets. Then there are later figures like 220 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:32.440 Julia Tafauna, who created and delivered a clear, tasteless and 221 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:36.399 odorless liquid into bottles labeled as holy water or cosmetics. 222 00:12:36.919 --> 00:12:40.360 It was named Aqua Tofauna. The poison was intended to 223 00:12:40.360 --> 00:12:44.720 give women a means to end permanently their abusive relationships 224 00:12:45.279 --> 00:12:49.240 by dosing their husbands slowly over weeks. The symptoms started 225 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:51.159 out as low key enough that it looked like a 226 00:12:51.279 --> 00:12:55.320 natural illness, weakness, stomach pain, wasting away. It was a 227 00:12:55.360 --> 00:12:58.240 perfect cover. But at the heart of all of this 228 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:02.000 is arsenic. Sometimes with the little lead or belladonna thrown in, 229 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:07.080 but the heavy lifter arsenic. Its colorless, odorless, tasteless one dissolve, 230 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:11.879 and once inside the body it systematically shuts down vital processes. 231 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:16.039 Victims would start with violent stomach cramps, then nausea and vomiting. 232 00:13:16.480 --> 00:13:19.879 Diarrhea was so severe that it led to dehydration. The 233 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:24.039 victim's skin would slowly lose color, becoming an ashen gray, 234 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:27.559 sometimes even further marred by dark lesions, and in high 235 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:31.279 doses it calls convulsions and collapse of the cardiovascular system. 236 00:13:31.799 --> 00:13:35.080 But in slow doses, like with aquatafauna, it looked like 237 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:39.399 tuberculosis or simple decline, which was called consumption. 238 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:40.240 Man. 239 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:42.759 That's like the start of all of the sort of 240 00:13:42.759 --> 00:13:45.240 black widow cases that we hear. 241 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:47.840 About right exactly so, in the Middle. 242 00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:51.799 Ages, in Scandinavia, noble women like Blanche of Namor, Queen 243 00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:55.240 of Sweden and Norway were accused of resorting to poison 244 00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:59.960 against rivals. Current researchers proposed that these accusations might be 245 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:03.480 political smears, But the important thing is that the idea 246 00:14:03.559 --> 00:14:07.240 of female poisoners was powerful enough to stick around for 247 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:11.240 thousands of years. By the fifteen hundreds, England cranked things 248 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:14.559 up with the Poisoning Act of fifteen thirty. It was 249 00:14:14.639 --> 00:14:18.360 so extreme that it made poisoning high treason. The punishment 250 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:22.480 wasn't hanging or beheading, it was boiling alive. One of 251 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:26.120 the first executed was Richard Ruce, a cook accused of 252 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:30.000 poisoning a pot of porridge in Bishop John Fisher's household. 253 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:34.200 He was literally boiled to death in Smithfield Market. So 254 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:37.799 through the Middle Ages and Renaissance, poisoning wasn't just a crime. 255 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:43.080 It was a cultural obsession, tangled up with witchcraft trials, 256 00:14:43.559 --> 00:14:47.240 royal scandals, and social control. And at the center of 257 00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:49.840 it all was the same anxiety we saw back in Rome. 258 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:53.480 Who controls the potions and what happens when that power 259 00:14:53.559 --> 00:14:55.720 is used to kill instead of cure. 260 00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:58.559 But a key historical event that is recorded are the 261 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:02.600 accusations against Ellenor Cobbham, Duchess of Gloucester in fourteen forty one, 262 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:06.120 She was accused of witchcraft and sorcery, including trying to 263 00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:09.039 poison King Henry the sixth through the use of her potions, 264 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:11.480 and Eleanor ended up in prison for life. Whether or 265 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:14.279 not the poison was really involved, the charge itself carried 266 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:16.519 that leathles association with witchcraft. 267 00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:18.759 So here's the paradox. 268 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:22.240 While poisoners were feared, this era also gave us the 269 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:27.919 birth of the science of toxicology. Doctors started experimenting, documenting symptoms, 270 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:32.559 and basically building a science of detection. By the nineteenth century, 271 00:15:32.600 --> 00:15:36.039 it was front page news the so called poison panic. 272 00:15:36.559 --> 00:15:40.159 Easy access to arsenic and other poisons made the public 273 00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:45.159 very paranoid, and trials of accused poisoners became sort of 274 00:15:45.200 --> 00:15:49.200 the new media spectacle. The slow burn effect was part 275 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:52.440 of its power. A husband or a rival could weaken 276 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:56.679 over the weeks, losing weight, their hair, becoming brittle, skin pale, 277 00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:01.480 until they just essentially wasted away. No suspicious knife, woo, 278 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:06.200 no obvious crime scene, just this lingering illness, and without 279 00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:10.120 chemical tests, no one could prove otherwise. This is where 280 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:13.759 the science starts to change the story. Paracelsus, a Swiss 281 00:16:13.799 --> 00:16:17.360 physician in the early fifteen hundreds wrote quote, all things 282 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:20.919 are poison, and nothing is without poison. Only the dose 283 00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:25.440 makes the poison end quote, which is true to medications 284 00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:28.720 and things that we talk about in today's day and age. 285 00:16:28.759 --> 00:16:33.759 Certainly circling back to earlier Eastern perspectives, Paracelsus looked at 286 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:38.159 substances like arsenic and mercury not just as tools for murder, 287 00:16:38.279 --> 00:16:40.639 but as potential medicines if measured carefully. 288 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:43.200 He gave us the idea of dose. 289 00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:47.039 Response, the foundation of toxicology. He helped to turn the 290 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:51.080 focus from poison as a dark, mysterious force, something tied 291 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:55.679 to witches, sorcery, or secret criminal plots, to chemistry and 292 00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:58.399 the dose the same arsenic that can kill you in 293 00:16:58.519 --> 00:17:03.320 grams might cure certain ailments in milligrams. He dragged poison 294 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:06.480 out of the realm of superstition and into science. 295 00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:08.000 Imagine that, and. 296 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:11.359 By the nineteenth century, Matthew Orphela, sometimes called the father 297 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:15.839 of modern toxicology, developed chemical tests to actually detect arsenic 298 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:21.559 in tissues. Suddenly, poisoners couldn't hide behind mystery illnesses anymore, and. 299 00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:25.039 That's why arsenic earned the nickname the King of Poisons 300 00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:26.440 and the poison of kings. 301 00:17:27.000 --> 00:17:27.720 It was used to. 302 00:17:27.720 --> 00:17:31.680 Murder peasants, noblemen, and even emperors. But it also forced 303 00:17:31.720 --> 00:17:34.440 us to invent the science that finally exposed it. And 304 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:38.160 this is when the government's cracked down. Britain's eighteen sixty 305 00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:42.480 eight Pharmacy Act restricted poisons to license pharmacists and even 306 00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:46.160 required sales to be logged. In the United States, dozens 307 00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:50.000 of states followed suit. They even made special textured poison 308 00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:52.960 bottles so people wouldn't mistake them in the dark. And 309 00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:56.039 in nineteen o six, the Pure Food and Drug Act 310 00:17:56.559 --> 00:18:01.480 banned dangerous ingredients and the nineteen twenty Dangerous Drugs Act 311 00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:05.039 targeted opiates. And in the modern world, while we see 312 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:09.160 fewer poison murders, the pattern continues. When it does surface, 313 00:18:09.440 --> 00:18:14.680 it's often in healthcare settings, serial poisoners abusing access to medications. 314 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:19.000 But now toxicology is incredibly advanced and we can detect 315 00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:21.720 trace levels of toxins that would have been invisible just 316 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:22.559 a century ago. 317 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:29.000 When we talk about poisoners, the truth is that our 318 00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:32.680 field psychology has not paid them as much attention to 319 00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:36.039 other forms of overt violence, or even the direct focus 320 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:40.119 of studying serial killers of which poisoners can be a subset. 321 00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:43.880 The twenty fifteen systematic review by Terrant and Glorny examining 322 00:18:43.920 --> 00:18:48.359 poisoning cases from eighteen fifty to twenty fourteen, has laid 323 00:18:48.359 --> 00:18:52.160 a foundation for more of an understanding of the motivations 324 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:55.680 and the profiles of these perpetrators. So what Terrant and 325 00:18:55.759 --> 00:19:00.759 Glorny found was surprisingly consistent across time and cultures. You 326 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:05.160 can almost sketch a prototype poisoner. It is someone often 327 00:19:05.240 --> 00:19:08.920 tied to healthcare or science fields, where they both have 328 00:19:09.160 --> 00:19:13.440 access to an array of potentially poisonous substances and the 329 00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:16.519 knowledge of how to use them. Many of the profile 330 00:19:16.599 --> 00:19:20.720 studies show individuals with complex personality traits that are shaped 331 00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:24.720 by their life histories like attachment issues and those made 332 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:28.880 them more vulnerable to committing these crimes. Their motives are 333 00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:35.000 rarely random. Poisoning was usually about secondary gain, and secondary 334 00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:38.599 gain is the indirect benefit that a person receives from 335 00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:43.240 their symptoms or behavior, such as attention, financial compensation, or 336 00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:47.319 avoiding responsibility, and that's beyond the primary effect of the 337 00:19:47.319 --> 00:19:50.839 condition itself. So in these cases, the drive is the money, 338 00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:55.000 control or reclaiming power over a victim right. 339 00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:57.599 So kind of pointing out the obvious here. But I'm 340 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:00.440 sure at this point us and our listener are all 341 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:04.440 kind of picturing this emerging ven diagram, of course, including 342 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:07.839 a circle that is a factitious order by proxy, right, 343 00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:11.160 because what you're talking about really describes that, among some 344 00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:13.640 other things that we're going to get to. And from 345 00:20:13.720 --> 00:20:16.960 an article from our friend and colleague, doctor Joni Johnston, 346 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:21.880 she posits that poisoners tend to be cunning, methodical, and 347 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:27.519 risk adverse. So unlike offenders who use physical violence, poisoners 348 00:20:27.680 --> 00:20:31.920 actually avoid confrontation, so instead they tend to plan carefully, 349 00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:36.000 manipulate others, and strike in ways that con seal their hand. 350 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:40.799 Some experts compare their methodical planning to writing a script 351 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:43.759 for a play. Every step kind of mapped out, every 352 00:20:43.880 --> 00:20:44.839 risk considered. 353 00:20:45.400 --> 00:20:48.319 Another theme that emerged in tarant and Glormy's research was, 354 00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:51.440 of course, the substantial factor of mental health. A substantial 355 00:20:51.519 --> 00:20:55.880 number of poisoners had suspected or even diagnosed psychiatric conditions, 356 00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:59.680 and that influenced how they managed their emotions and their relationships. 357 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:03.319 This is again reflected in doctor Johnson's research that shows 358 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:08.720 poisoners often show signs of emotional immaturity and inadequacy, and 359 00:21:08.759 --> 00:21:12.839 they're thought to compensate for these perceived deficits through manipulation, 360 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:17.559 a hunger for control, fantasies of power, and an exploitive 361 00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:23.200 interpersonal style. Many were spoiled or came from unhappy homes. Psychologically, 362 00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:25.279 it's as if they never grew up. They take what 363 00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:28.720 they want without regard for others, driven by greed, lust, 364 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:33.160 or resentment rather than empathy or moral restraint. Definitely leaning 365 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:37.599 heavily here on the influence of narcissistic elements within their personality. 366 00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:40.720 Put together literature and case files show that they have 367 00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:45.119 recognizable patterns. The studies authors suggest that these patterns could 368 00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:47.920 be the basis for an early warning system that would 369 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:52.680 help professionals spot suspicious behavior before it escalates into a crime. 370 00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:55.119 That's a good foundation, I mean, I think we're starting 371 00:21:55.160 --> 00:21:58.559 to get a picture, just personality wise of what's going on, 372 00:21:59.240 --> 00:22:01.880 and now naring down to a perspective on the mental 373 00:22:01.880 --> 00:22:05.759 health factor. A really interesting point is that poisoners don't 374 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:10.319 fit neatly into the usual criminal boxes. Poisoners show traits 375 00:22:10.359 --> 00:22:14.519 of both the so called organized and disorganized defenders. When 376 00:22:14.559 --> 00:22:16.640 you dig down a little deeper, I do want to 377 00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:18.839 say we don't use this caveat much, but it's worth 378 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:24.000 noting that with these descriptors, they're not to be confused 379 00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:27.599 with the psych use of them in evaluations, where we 380 00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:32.160 might talk about someone being organized versus disorganized, which really 381 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:34.839 kind of in that case refers to an individual's executive 382 00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:39.079 functioning processes. In this use, we mean that those are 383 00:22:39.200 --> 00:22:43.559 just planners, very careful planners, versus those that are more impulsive. 384 00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:46.240 So you know, we have some overlap and like our 385 00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:50.039 psych folks and our listeners and just you know, true 386 00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:52.880 crime criminal justice listeners, and I think sometimes we have 387 00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:54.519 to make that differentiation. 388 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:54.400 And we don't. 389 00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:58.119 So having said that, on the organized side, they're meticulous 390 00:22:58.359 --> 00:23:03.240 choosing poisons that are colorless, tasteless, slow acting, and really 391 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:08.000 tough to detect, all while leaving almost no physical evidence behind. 392 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:10.720 But at the same time, they can still behave in 393 00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:15.920 disorganized ways, acting erratically or leaving small clues that they 394 00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:21.119 didn't mean to. Successful poisoners are often calculating and deliberate, 395 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:25.960 yet they still might slip up, either emotionally or maybe 396 00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:30.319 logistically or practically. Take Mary Anne Cotton, a nurse go 397 00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:34.720 figure who is often called Britain's first female serial killer 398 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:38.160 in the nineteenth century, she poisoned at least fifteen people, 399 00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:42.599 usually her own children and husbands, with arsenic, and for 400 00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:45.319 years she got away with it by making their deaths 401 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:49.160