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Speaker 1: How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with

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patron mug. Sign up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks

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dot com. Hey, welcome back to dot net rocks. I'm

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Carl Franklin at Amateur Cable, and we're here doing the

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thing with the stuff. You know what, we like it.

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I think I might make a write a song called

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the Thing with this Stuffing with the stuff. It's just

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so so useful in everyday conversation because you know, it's

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just what it says, is you know that whole context,

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the thing we've been talking about lately. Yeah, that's what

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I'm doing.

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Speaker 2: The thing that's the thing with the stuff and the stuffy.

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Definitely need them both. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now, if you just walk down the stairs in the

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morning and say you got to do the thing with

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the stuff, now there's a problem because there's no context.

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Speaker 2: But if we've been there yet, all right anyway, so

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you put just fully in the bit, right fully how

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are you man's puppy. You know, she's a chaos monkey.

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She's head there and you but uh, you know it's

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very good. Yeah, I'm not. You know, I'm not unhappy

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to have a dog around. I didn't need to have

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a dog around.

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Speaker 1: Of course you're not.

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Speaker 2: But most people will know that animals adore me, and

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this one does too. So yeah, we all get along

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just fine. We'll see, you know, with the grandchild coming up.

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You know, we got a bit of a hurting dog here.

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My goal is that this dog annoys the grandchild so

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much because won't let her near the ocean. I want

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this kid to say, Grandpa, Joe, Joe won't let me

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get near the ocean, And I'll say, that'll do, dog,

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that'll do. All right.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's roll along right into better no frameworks awesome.

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I know we're talking about open source today, but I

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found a GitHub repo that is trending and it turns

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out this is kind.

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Speaker 2: Of a hub who uses get hub.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know this is actually on GitHub marketplace, so

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it's not really an OSS thing, but it is on

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GitHub and it is trending. And I noticed this because

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when I looked at the list like translation systems seem

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to be very much in demand right now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, especially with a on the new LLM

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tools are just tokenization of language has led to better

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translators without a doubt.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well this one is a little bit different. So

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this is PO editor, and it does have a free version,

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but then you got to pay for more use, right,

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So it's a sort of a try before you buy

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kind of thing. But here's here's what it is, and

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I'm just reading. It's a PO editor is a highly

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scalable translation management system and localization platform. So it's an

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online collaboration environment for the entire localization team. But you

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don't need a team. So here's how. There's a couple

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of options of how you can use this. You can

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assign translators to specific languages by adding them as contributors.

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You can crowdsource translations from your community using public projects

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because it integrates with GitHub. You can order professional human

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translation services from one of their partners, or you can

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use machine translation or any combination of those things. And

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so it supports all sorts of different file formats.

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Speaker 2: Which is what you need, right. You want all that

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all that text, all that sourcing in centralized formats, so

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it can be swapped out.

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Speaker 1: Right or even in multiple formats. If you have a

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dot net application, you have something that doesn't read Jason,

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it needs to read Angular XMB files or something.

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Speaker 2: You're making iOS and Android and you want to do

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translation as well. Those are different file formats. Man.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's right. It even supports any files. Oh boy,

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how about that.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. That is a good thing. But okay,

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I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Rob, how do you feel about any files?

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Speaker 3: I have a custom XMEL format that I remember we

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did work when I was in office to make sure

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it could ship over to Ireland where we did all

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our translation and come back. So I hope that they

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have access to or have the ability to support WXL

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files because that's what we use for all our stuff.

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Speaker 1: I don't let me look down the list. I don't

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see WXL files.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't see WXL. I means it.

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Speaker 1: I see XML files, but I see XML, but it's XML.

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Speaker 3: So most people be like, yeah, this parts translated, this parts,

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and ID go.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, nice.

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Speaker 1: Well anyway, so that's where it is, and right on

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there you get it for free. You can get three

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thousand strings and then medium projects and premium and enterprise.

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You can go all the way up to a couple

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of files a year. So that's awesome. That's it. It's

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just interesting. How you know these two, this one and

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the one I showed last week, we're right at the

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top of the list of trending GitHub projects.

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Speaker 2: Interesting.

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Speaker 1: So well, that's what I got. Richard, who's talking to

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us today.

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Speaker 2: I'm going into the wayback machine here and grabbing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Rob's first show, the one we did back in March

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at twenty twelve, episode seven four seven, so only twelve

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hundred episodes ago or so. Wow, talking about the Wicks

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tool Set, which had a ton of comments on it,

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really like sixteen eighteen something like that. Yeah, and one

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of them is from Timothy Klink in a mid at

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least from thirteen years ago.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait a minute. We should differentiate between WIS the

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popular web development environment. I know Rob is shaking his

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head like, oh my god, these guys ruined my life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, who stole your name? Man?

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Speaker 1: And but WIS that Rob did is a set of

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tools for building Windows installation packages.

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Speaker 3: The Wix tool Set is what we call it to

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avoid all the legal problems there, right, Yeah, may or

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may not exist that we have never investigated. No never, never,

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help don't want to under We call it the Wicks toolset,

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and then you could call it Wix and all the

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lawyers at Microsoft HILP come toool it that way back when.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go, all right, so sorry to interrupt.

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Speaker 2: So that's all that problem. So, yeah, it was an installer.

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And this is what exactly where Tim clinkwaed where you

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said this is a great show. I was doing a

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lot of nodding during the discussion. And how still today

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many people dismiss how critically important a good installation package is.

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It's all about the first impressions. The user's first impression

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of your app does not begin when they double click

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the desktop short top of the first time begins when

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they double click set up XM. I was reminded of

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his story a long time ago about an applicant to

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Harvard Paper clipping a dollar bill to their application along

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with a short note. The note requests of the reviewer

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go get a donut, take a break, relax, and get

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into their happy place before they read the application.

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Speaker 1: That's great.

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Speaker 2: A good installation package is like this. It's a dope.

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It we'll set the user's mood to frustrated or happy

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place prior to them clicking on your applications debtstop icon

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for the first time. Legit absolutely and that's an old comment,

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too right. It's an old comment. It is so right.

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It's still writes today by a mile. It's still true, Tiffyth.

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Thank you so much for your comment. In a copy

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of music, Coby. It's on its way to you. And

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if you'd like a copy of music go buy. I

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write a comment on the website at dot at rocks

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dot com or on the facebooks. We publish every show there,

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and if I comment there and every reading on the show,

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we'll send you copy music to go buy.

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Speaker 1: And you can get music to Koby music to code

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by dot net and that is a u r L

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DNS entry, so don't put hgdps in front of it.

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And that brings you to another place where you can

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listen to a sample and get track twenty two or

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the entire collection rob before we get started here. When

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Richard was reading that, I was reminded of Mark Miller's

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new invention that he unleashed unveiled on Mondays, which was

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called the install Buddy and so the install buddy, when

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you're running an installer, it's in the background and it's

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just clicking next, next, next, next, next, next, next, next, finish.

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Speaker 2: That's awesome.

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Speaker 3: That's awesome. So I have a rebuttle to that if

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you care.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, sure, why not.

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Speaker 3: I appreciate the sentiment one hundred percent, And we actually

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talk to our customers a lot about minimizing the amount

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of input that you have to put in install Again,

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first impression, let's get to the product. That's where they

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want to be. They want to get past your progress

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bar and to the end. So to that point, I

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one hundred percent agree. Fortunately, the industry has definitely been

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moving that direction. Like app installer now is just one button.

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But at the same time, a lot of customers that

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I work with are large organizations with very large and

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complex software, and you're not going to next, next, next

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your way through it. There is complex information you have

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to provide up front in order to configure it. So

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there are different worlds, and we see all kinds in

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the insulation space because we see all software in the

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slation space, which makes it interesting for me. So yes,

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I totally get it next, next, next, except when you

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have some really heavy software.

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Speaker 1: Well it was. It was a joke, so it was funny,

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a funny joke, but it did hit all right, So

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let me introduce Rob.

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Speaker 2: Did you want to do nineteen forty eight?

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Speaker 1: Yes, I do want to do nineteen forty eight before

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I introduced Rob officially. Okay, because this is episode nineteen

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forty eight. We have been doing this lately. We go

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back in history and see, you know, try to summarize

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what happened.

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Speaker 2: Pretty much till we once we got in the nineteen hundred's,

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the history part came more. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So nineteen forty eight was a pivotal year several major events,

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including the assassination of Mahatma Gandhi, the declaration of independence

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for the State of Israel, and the start of the

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Arab Israeli War. It also saw the beginning of the

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Berlin Airlift, the US establishing the Marshall planted as I

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said last week, to aid post war Europe and the

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United States. It's recognizing the state of Israel, which was

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it happened at the same you know, in the same year.

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Also in the United States, President Truman signed executive Order

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in nine to nine to eight one ending racial segregation

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in the United States Armed Forces. Do you have anything

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to add, Richard.

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Speaker 2: The land Camera, the Polaroids and Camera nineteen forty eight,

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No kidding. Yeah. For Canadians, the Davelin Beaver, the DHC two.

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This is a prop plane float typically float planes, the

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ultimate bush plane and I flew on one like a

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month ago. It's called the Beaver. Yeah. Wow. Of course

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in the dash too. Uh and it's like it's a legend,

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just an unbelievable machine. Wow. Only made for until in

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nineteen sixties, still flying today. And finally, because it is

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a tech show, so let's talk about the men Chester Baby,

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which was one of the very they arguably the very

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first electronic quote stored program computers coming out of World

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War Too. There was a lot of computers being built,

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but this was a computer that could actually store a

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program within it and execute that program. It added thirty

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two words of memory of thirty two bits each for

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a total of one twenty four bits.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Good Lord, and the Baby was the test bed for

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the Mark one, which eventually became what they called the

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Manchester Ferrante, which was the first commercially available stored program

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computer in the world.

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Speaker 1: Also the first Canadian land cruiser was called the Moose

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Nice and the first Canadian boat was called the Otter

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and then the sister submersal submersible. Anyway, I kid, you're

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making this stuff all right, So let's now let me

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finally introduce Rob Officially. Rob MenShing is the CEO and

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co founder of fire Giant, a company that provides commercial

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support in tools for the Wicks tool set. He's also

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the creator and maintainer of Wicks. Of course, we talked

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about the most powerful set of tools for running building

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Windows installation packages. The Wicks tool set holds the unique

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distinction of being the first open source project released by Microsoft,

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and Rob has been deeply involved in open source over

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twenty five years. He's passionate about making open source sustainable

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and his latest proposal, the open Source Maintenance Fee, is

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all about creating a better path toward. It is all

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about creating a better path forward for projects and their maintainers.

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This ought to be really good, Rob, welcome back.

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Speaker 3: Thank you. I'm looking forward to talking to you guys.

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It's I didn't realize that twenty twelve that was that

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was easy for show. You had some after that, but yeah,

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twenty twelve of you were still a Blue badge.

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Speaker 2: That's how long ago that was.

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Speaker 3: Just barely that's right. I started fire Giant twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 2: Wow, yes, there you go. So it's like it's been

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twelve years in fire Giant. But yeah, it's a way back, yeah,

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way back moment.

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Speaker 3: As long as that's kind of throws me off. I

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think I've been fire Giant as long as I've been

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at Microsoft, as I was at.

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Speaker 2: Microsoft, as long as your Microsoft n Yeah, and he

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still feels like it's your new thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it feels like a startup. It feels like I've

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been doing this for about three years. But when I

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look back, we've done more than three years of work,

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and I just can't reconcile the two together. So when

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you say it's been twelve years, I have to and

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go really, I guess, man, we have so much more

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to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not like I'm getting the bottom eye to

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do list. That's not a thing.

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Speaker 1: So when did you go solo again? Thirty thirteen twenty.

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Speaker 3: Right at the beginning. I retired from Microsoft in twenty

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twelve and started fire Giant. Fire Giant officially launched in June,

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But you know, takes six months to put everything together,

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but we had the idea, you know, to begin to

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my thirteen I was working towards that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, when immediately came to mind when I read

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your bio. There in the things that you're talking about

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for open source, making it sustainable and better, you know,

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better prospects for owners of OSS projects. Is that we

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is that show that we did at NDC in twenty

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twenty two with David Whitney. I was in November twenty

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twenty two making open Source Work for Everyone with David Whitney,

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and I remember we got into this really cool what

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if discussion about what if you know, places like GitHub

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would have some sort of pay mechanism built in, so

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like write in Visual Studio, you could say, hey, this

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is open source, but they would really appreciate your donations

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or something like that. Just make it low friction for

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people to donate to open source projects. You're nodding your head.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there have been ideas in this space for a

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long time, and lots of different ideas floating around this space,

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which is fantastic because I don't think we're going to

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end up with one solution to what do we do

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with open source to make it viable for everybody to

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continue working in it. So I do believe there are

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many different options that we need to consider because there

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are many different kinds of projects. And the idea of

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having some way to pay maintainers in GitHub was very

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present because now they have sponsors, which turned into very

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much that even if it's not deeply in a Grandville studio,

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it is exactly in that space. So yeah, there's been

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lots of thinking and talking about this, and I decided

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I had to formalize some of it. So that's why

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I want to talk to you today about.

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Speaker 1: So let's get to it. What are your ideas?

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Speaker 3: Do you want the history? Do you want the idea first?

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Speaker 2: That tweet thread is really important, Okay, because it's an

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encapsulation of so many projects I've seen.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so maintainers. When you're a maintainer of a successful

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project for a long term, the world changes a little bit,

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the changes for you a little bit. And I have

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this theory that I've been developing of there are these

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mega projects that people know about, that's the ones they

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think of. They usually have corporates running them, and they

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have a different way of operating. You have the hobby projects,

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I don't have like that term acoungement, but you know,

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startup projects, they're just getting off the ground and the

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people are still very enthusiastic about what they are, what

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they could be, the future is everything ahead of them, right,

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and they're just trying to find more users. And that

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place is awesome. Then you hit the what I call

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the working class projects, where you've usually graduated from being

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a hobby project and you've now ended up in a

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space where people depend on you, and you take that

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responsibility seriously that you have an important piece of the ecosystem.

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It's the what is that the Ohio project? You are

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that tiny little cog standing up the whole system on

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top of you from SKCD, Yeah, you are that little

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block and you take it seriously, like this is my project.

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And I've been running the Wicks tool set for twenty

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plus years longer if you count the stuff I did

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in Microsoft, but twenty plus years. And after a while

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you kind of get to a place where not everybody's

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treating the project particularly well or you particularly well. And

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for the last few years I've been very frustrated with

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what's been going on around the project. And then the

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EXZ UTLS issue hit at the March last year. I

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think it was fourth that issue. I saw all these

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people talking about the attack vector that almost turned into

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a back door on Linux that got into cloud servers

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and every Linux like it was crazy, and I knew

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people are going to do the analysis of what it

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was and how it worked, because that's like the geeky

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technical stuff. But for me, I saw the story behind it.

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Speaker 2: We better recap what happened last year because not everybody's yeah,

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good idea. All right.

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Speaker 3: So someone found a way to use and xx udles,

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which is this like compression library and tool that was

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included in I think every major Linux distribution, and a

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we believe an attacker. Now at this point, someone very

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dedicated found a way to use the build system to

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inject code that did not appear until inside the Linux

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build or something in that effect, so that they could

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insert a back door into the Linux build system that

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they could then connect back in and it would end

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up on all Linux machines. And it happened to be

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found by a dev working on performance some performance issue

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was like Microsoft and Azure and said hey, wait this

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is acting a little slow and found the problem.

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Speaker 2: It was like a half a second or something, right, Yeah,

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it was minuscule.

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Speaker 3: It was talked about narrow, narrow, narrow by the slimmest

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margins that someone found that that could have been catastrophic,

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and then nobody might have even noticed once it's out there,

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it could have just been an invisible back door.

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Speaker 2: Well, they also bags the question how many we not noticed? Right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah it was. It was a very very sophisticated attack,

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so obviously fascinating to every developer out there, like, wow,

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how did this work? How did you get in there?

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How do you slip yourself into s sh or all

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the And I'll be honest, I didn't dig into those

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details because the part that I saw was the a

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thread and someone pointed out a thread, the email thread

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archived on you know, set of way pages of their

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their their mailing list, and I started at the top

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and I found the maintainer of the project talking to

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the people that are then believed to have put in

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this attack. And in it you have people pushing on

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this maintainer saying you're not doing enough for the project.

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Why haven't you submitted all these prs, why haven't you

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fixed all these bugs? And you can hear the maintainer saying, oh, yeah,

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I'm going to get to that. It's just it's been

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really hard and I've just been a lot of pressure.

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And you can hear like there's other things in their

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life going on, right and and he says, oh, and

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there's someone that's been helping me on the side. You know,

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that's been really helpful. But you know, it's it's really

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hard finding people to take over a project or helping

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a project. And then you have repeated cases that if people, well,

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you should give up on your project because clearly you're

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not going to take care of it, and someone else saying, oh,

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we understand, it's really hard to maintain your project. You know,

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you could be really busy, but you really should do

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something because your project will suffer because you're not doing this.

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And at the end, the guy's like, well, you know,

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this other person's been really helpful, and you know we'll

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probably have them helping more. It turns out that that person,

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that named person is the person that's tracked back to

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it's the attack or inserting the attack vector into make

401
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files and the data files and everything else.

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Speaker 1: And they made themselves look like, you know, they were

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going to help out like they.

404
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Speaker 2: Well, they be clear. They they had been more helping out,

405
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They had been making contributions, like one person had been helping.

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Speaker 1: Right, it's what I'm saying. But all the way along

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the goal must have been to at once they gain

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their trust to launch this attack, and nobody would ever

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suspect them.

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Speaker 3: Right, So one person was helping, and then two other

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people showed up in this particular thread, and the timing

412
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spread out. It's not like immediately back in back and forth.

413
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It's like a week spread out, two weeks here. I mean,

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it's not obvious. And when I originally saw this thread

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and I wrote down a tweet about this, that I realized, oh,

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and it was like, I don't know, thirty tweets and

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I was like, oh, I hate it when people write

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tweet thread. So I ran and put in my blog

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so you can read it all one big pass much

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as you read, and I had more contexts. At that time,

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there were theories that this could be a truly coordinated attack,

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with multiple people operating what we call sock puppets pretend

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to people pretending to be different. I don't characters in

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a play trying to manipulate what they wanted I thought

425
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that felt a little far fetched at the time, because

426
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it felt very real. Everything that was being discussed and

427
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treated and the way that people were acting was very

428
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common for what you get on maintainers. You get sets

429
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of people just showing up going why haven't you fed

430
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me yet? I want my fix? Where's my build? I

431
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can't believe you haven't fixed this in ten years. I

432
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just got that comment this morning from somebody. I can't

433
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believe you haven't fixed this in ten years.

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Speaker 2: And that's when you offer them the refund of everything

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they've paid.

436
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Speaker 3: I actually offered to assign them the issue, which is

437
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my new tactic. In the end, I ended up really mad,

438
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like just stomping mad. And I've been low key mad

439
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for quite a while having seen other maintainers treated the

440
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same way, feeling it myself. And I'm fortunate that I

441
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have Bob who works who's a co maintainer on the

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WHIS tool set with me, so I have someone I

443
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can talk to and kind of, you know, walk off

444
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that ledge. No, sorry, step away from the ledge from

445
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the ledge. Yeah, just like this is this is too much?

446
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Speaker 2: You're really a friend, you'll jump off with me? No, No,

447
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that's not the goal here.

448
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Speaker 3: Well, and when you're in a project that is popular

449
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and successful and you have lots of users, you will

450
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hit this space where you went up with a non

451
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trivial number of people showing up making demands of the

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project without any thoughts of any contributions. And so the

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xc udels that event and then finding out that it

454
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was very possibly Nation State actors. Nobody knows for sure,

455
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but that level of coordination made me just go that

456
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that's it. I'm going to do something. I don't know

457
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what I'm going to do. But at April last year,

458
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you know, about a year ago now, I said, I'm

459
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going to find something and I'm not doing it like

460
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this anymore. We're not just going to have maintainers out

461
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here unprotected from every you know, everything. We need to

462
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change the culture and the way that we treat maintainers.

463
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And so I sat for months just I couldn't put

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it down. I had job to do. This is not

465
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my job. But I had this thought process in the

466
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back of my head, going what can we do that

467
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builds a system that works well for maintainers, that is

468
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fair to everybody involved, and can scale. And it was

469
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all based off this tweet of mine that got a

470
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million in some views, which I don't write tweets like that.

471
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I'm not a mean person, right, I write tweets communicate

472
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Moory project, my company and what I do. That thing

473
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went crazy and everybody in the thread agreed that it

474
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was a problem. I have never seen so many people

475
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agree on Twitter.

476
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,079
Speaker 2: The Internet. You're not supposed to get along, that's not

477
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:27,279
how Ever.

478
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 3: The only discussion that went sideways where people were disagreeing

479
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,880
was whether we should have universal basic income. And I

480
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:35,759
was like, Okay, I'm not touching that. You guys, go

481
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:37,960
have fun on that conversation. That's a bit far. Yeah,

482
00:24:38,079 --> 00:24:41,079
a bit far, And it just was like a side

483
00:24:41,079 --> 00:24:43,279
thread on the whole thing. But everybody agreed.

484
00:24:44,279 --> 00:24:44,799
Speaker 2: So yeah.

485
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,559
Speaker 3: I went from there and my experience with frustration of

486
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:50,920
where I was at as a maintainer, because like a

487
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,319
year before that, I remember one morning I woke up

488
00:24:53,559 --> 00:24:55,279
and you know, dealt so with me and I just

489
00:24:55,279 --> 00:24:57,079
get my wife said that's it. I'm done. I'm not

490
00:24:57,079 --> 00:24:59,480
going to do this anymore. Like why am I Why

491
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,920
do I even do this? Why am I putting myself

492
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:03,640
through this? I have a company built on this open

493
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:08,279
source project. I'll just do it a different way. And

494
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,960
I'm the guy that worked for years inside Microsoft to

495
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,920
make open source happen. So I was like, I'm walking

496
00:25:16,039 --> 00:25:19,720
I my mind was torn. It was I was I

497
00:25:19,759 --> 00:25:22,680
was broken. It was pretty bad in this space. So

498
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,319
to hear other maintainers having these same problems and pains,

499
00:25:26,599 --> 00:25:28,559
I reached out to a number of them. And every

500
00:25:28,599 --> 00:25:31,039
maintainer that has a project that you think of successful,

501
00:25:31,599 --> 00:25:34,680
that you thought was successful, if you know it by

502
00:25:34,799 --> 00:25:38,279
name and you know that maintainer, they are in either

503
00:25:38,319 --> 00:25:41,759
one of two camps. One they don't care about what

504
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,799
happens to the project and they're just distracted from it.

505
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,319
DHH has this famous slide where he's just like, f you, Like,

506
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,519
that's the way he approaches his project. He doesn't care

507
00:25:51,559 --> 00:25:53,839
about you. That's a fine way to go. I know

508
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,160
no maintainer, I personally know no maintainers that operate that

509
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,079
way because they care too much about their project and

510
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,960
being how it work well. All the ones I talked

511
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,000
to all have were like, yep, I totally agree. I've

512
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,880
all thought about quitting every single one of them, all

513
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,960
of the major projects, all of them are all in

514
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:09,599
the same spot.

515
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 2: So now you wake up in the morning up, you know,

516
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,759
immediately anxious about I haven't dealt with I haven't got

517
00:26:16,759 --> 00:26:19,000
to like you're dreading going to your office.

518
00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so that was the reality. That's where it's at.

519
00:26:23,279 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 2: End.

520
00:26:23,559 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 3: I decided I was going to have to create a solution. So,

521
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,839
like I said before, I think there will be many

522
00:26:29,039 --> 00:26:31,839
solutions for many different sized projects, for different kind of

523
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,759
types of projects. I know, my project, it's about half

524
00:26:35,799 --> 00:26:37,680
a million lines of code. There's two of us that

525
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,759
work on it. Often there's only one person that works

526
00:26:39,759 --> 00:26:44,759
on it. And we have you know, millions of downloads,

527
00:26:45,319 --> 00:26:48,160
tens of millions of downloads, ten million downloads, twelve million downs.

528
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,920
Now it's a big project, all that kind of good stuff.

529
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,880
And I said, all right, in this space, what can

530
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,680
I do? And so I sat down for a while

531
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:02,640
and started going, what if we charge a fee for

532
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,000
people to use the project? And from there I started

533
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:07,799
putting it together. So should I go jump into the

534
00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:09,559
details of the maintenance.

535
00:27:09,279 --> 00:27:11,319
Speaker 2: Fe then yeah, let's go all right, yeah, let's do it.

536
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,640
Speaker 3: So the maintenance feek idea came as I slowly started

537
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,240
teasing apart the problem and I realized that there's open

538
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,319
source software and that has a license on it that

539
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,079
we all know and love. All of our various license

540
00:27:25,079 --> 00:27:27,960
out there, whether you're like MIT or GPL or my

541
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,039
favorite MSRL, whatever license, we know all of that. And

542
00:27:32,079 --> 00:27:36,400
what I got to was that license applies to the

543
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,519
source code. And if we say that that license will

544
00:27:39,519 --> 00:27:42,799
only apply to the source code and stop there, that's

545
00:27:42,839 --> 00:27:44,759
an open source project. Like that's enough to say that

546
00:27:44,799 --> 00:27:47,200
your software is open source. Right. You don't have to

547
00:27:47,319 --> 00:27:50,519
build the source code for people. You don't have to

548
00:27:50,599 --> 00:27:54,160
have an issue tracker, You don't have to take changes

549
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,000
from other people and apply them to your open source software.

550
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,519
Your open source software is open source. Are done?

551
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:00,880
Speaker 2: Yeah?

552
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 3: You you have successfully created an open source project. So

553
00:28:05,079 --> 00:28:10,200
all that other stuff that is generally expected of maintainers.

554
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,119
Build a binary that other people can use. Answer the

555
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,480
discussions that people have, keep a discussion list where people

556
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,279
can ask questions, have an issue tracker, deal with them.

557
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,200
Some people expect you to fix all of them. Do

558
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,440
regular builds, stay up to date with all of the

559
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,160
dependencies that you have, as those keep changing. Dot A

560
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,519
framework I'm looking at you. You know, security vulnerabilities that

561
00:28:30,559 --> 00:28:32,920
pop up, you know all of the you know, spam

562
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,240
shows up. Yeah, go make sure that doesn't show up. Oh,

563
00:28:35,279 --> 00:28:37,119
you have to have signing certificates for your binaries, we'll

564
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,480
keep those up to date, so on and so forth.

565
00:28:39,599 --> 00:28:44,680
So there's all this other stuff that's actually that's the project,

566
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:50,119
that's the work that the maintainers do regularly, outside of

567
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,519
maybe choosing to write some lines of code as a contributor. Right,

568
00:28:54,079 --> 00:28:57,680
So if we separate those two concepts and we say,

569
00:28:58,079 --> 00:29:01,359
I'm going to make the open source software open source

570
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,279
by this license, but the rest of this stuff that

571
00:29:05,359 --> 00:29:07,920
I have to do to maintain the project to make

572
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,079
it viable as most people expect it to be. What

573
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,039
if I have a fee? And in that tweet thread

574
00:29:14,079 --> 00:29:16,359
that we were talking about, I kept throwing out the

575
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,640
idea of what if you paid ten bucks per month

576
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,680
for a project? Nobody ever said peepe. They're like, yeah,

577
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,160
that seems fine, right, maintainers ten bucks a month, no problem.

578
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:29,799
So I said, all right, we're going to create the

579
00:29:29,799 --> 00:29:34,039
maintenance fee and for all of the stuff that isn't

580
00:29:34,079 --> 00:29:37,400
the source code itself. You want the bills, you want

581
00:29:37,519 --> 00:29:40,880
issue tracker and discussion lists, and you want signing certificates

582
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,200
and all that stuff maintained. You pay ten bucks a

583
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:47,440
month if you make money. So if you're a student,

584
00:29:47,759 --> 00:29:49,519
if you don't make money, if you don't want to

585
00:29:49,559 --> 00:29:53,720
play in the money game, no problem, you're in. Hang out.

586
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:57,119
Let's go right, we're talking source code, we're talking open source.

587
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,519
But if you're making money, if you're a compan or

588
00:30:00,559 --> 00:30:03,400
your employee at a company using a project, you're in

589
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,119
a different world. You're using this and you are getting

590
00:30:06,119 --> 00:30:08,400
some value out of it. So you get to.

591
00:30:08,359 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: Pay, and you're taking a dependency on it a.

592
00:30:10,559 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 3: Fee, right, right, And you depend on it and you

593
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,559
want to presumably want it to be there, so you

594
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,079
pay the fee. Really simple. And then I stacked it

595
00:30:19,119 --> 00:30:21,160
and I said, all right, we have dependencies an open

596
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,039
source project. So if an open source project says I'm

597
00:30:24,039 --> 00:30:26,279
going to start charging a fee for all of the

598
00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:30,440
stuff that isn't the software, than any dependency that you have,

599
00:30:30,559 --> 00:30:32,680
you pay their fee too. Okay, Right, So if I

600
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,960
have a dependency us on some other project, then I

601
00:30:36,039 --> 00:30:38,519
pay them. My project takes a fee, then I pay

602
00:30:38,559 --> 00:30:39,720
them however many fees they have.

603
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,559
Speaker 1: So you basically now are in a money distribution royalty

604
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,000
kind of right system.

605
00:30:46,079 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 3: Right, You you taking a fee in your project means

606
00:30:48,759 --> 00:30:50,359
you now have decided to take money, So now you

607
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,720
play as money. If your project doesn't take money, then

608
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:54,799
you don't have to pay money. At the idea of

609
00:30:54,839 --> 00:30:56,920
being like, look, if you're not making money, you're not

610
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,119
paying people, right, You're not trying to bankrupt people or

611
00:30:59,119 --> 00:31:01,039
anything like that. We're trying to get to a place

612
00:31:01,079 --> 00:31:05,279
where maintainers now can get paid for the work that

613
00:31:05,319 --> 00:31:07,720
they have to do to keep the software going and

614
00:31:07,839 --> 00:31:10,319
viable in an environment where people expect it to be.

615
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,279
Speaker 2: Any you're driving this through GitHub.

616
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. What I realized was that with the system, I

617
00:31:15,279 --> 00:31:18,160
ended up with about the tightest feedback loop that I

618
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:23,839
could create. Consumers pay a maintenance fee for the maintainers

619
00:31:23,839 --> 00:31:27,400
to maintain the project. The maintainers maintain the project, so

620
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:30,480
that the consumers continue to pay the fee, so that

621
00:31:30,519 --> 00:31:32,359
the consumers pay the fee to maintain the projects, and

622
00:31:32,359 --> 00:31:34,319
the maintainers continue to part and you end up with

623
00:31:34,359 --> 00:31:39,119
this tiny little loop cycle. Nobody else involved. There's nothing

624
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,640
else out there, because so many other proposal I'd seen

625
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:49,440
required somebody out there to do something to make this possible.

626
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,039
Usually some company is going to come down on high

627
00:31:52,079 --> 00:31:54,880
and say I have now created a system by which

628
00:31:55,079 --> 00:31:57,640
you will get paid, and the maintainers could be like, oh,

629
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,640
thank you, finally good assuming payment what they want. But

630
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,720
you know, a solution from outside here. Maintainer just says

631
00:32:04,279 --> 00:32:07,000
I require a fee and it all works. It's just

632
00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:08,920
between you and the consumer on that fee. You're good

633
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:09,160
to go.

634
00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 2: All right?

635
00:32:10,559 --> 00:32:12,279
Speaker 1: And I have so many questions, but we got to

636
00:32:12,319 --> 00:32:14,119
take a little break here, so we'll be right back

637
00:32:14,119 --> 00:32:17,960
after these very important messages. Stay tuned. Did you know

638
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,039
that you can work with AWS directly from your ID?

639
00:32:22,079 --> 00:32:26,599
AWS provides toolkits for visual studio, visual studio, code, and

640
00:32:26,799 --> 00:32:31,519
jet brains rider. Learn more at AWS dot Amazon dot com,

641
00:32:31,559 --> 00:32:39,599
slash net slash tools. And we're back. It's dot net rox.

642
00:32:39,599 --> 00:32:42,519
I'm Carl Franklin and that's my friend Richard Campbell and

643
00:32:42,559 --> 00:32:45,160
our friend Rob Menching, and we're talking about making open

644
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,440
source sustainable. I have so many questions, but the first

645
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,759
question I have is do you just work on the

646
00:32:51,759 --> 00:32:55,400
honor system? Do you just say, how do you prove

647
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:57,480
that you're not making money? How do you prove that

648
00:32:57,559 --> 00:33:00,200
you are? How do you do you go after for

649
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,160
people if they start using it and making money without

650
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:04,000
it without paying?

651
00:33:04,079 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 3: This is this is a fantastic question. And I sat

652
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,079
here for a long time going how do we do enforcement?

653
00:33:10,279 --> 00:33:12,720
And every maintainer as I presented this idea to them

654
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:14,759
always kind of got to this point, like I really

655
00:33:14,839 --> 00:33:16,519
love this idea. I never thought of it that way.

656
00:33:17,279 --> 00:33:19,000
How do you make it happen?

657
00:33:19,279 --> 00:33:19,519
Speaker 2: Right?

658
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 3: So, in the new gut world, we produce nugat package. Sorry,

659
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,480
in the dot net world mostly about nugat packages. That's

660
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,480
how a lot of things are attributed. Even my own

661
00:33:28,759 --> 00:33:32,240
system is now msbilled, SDKs and dot net tools and

662
00:33:32,279 --> 00:33:34,599
a whole bunch of NEWGAT packages. So we're all in

663
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,720
on nugat. I kind of sat and got all right,

664
00:33:37,759 --> 00:33:40,720
So what do I want? I want to declare a

665
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,440
I have a license, an open source license that applies

666
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,079
to source code. I need a YULA, an end user

667
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,839
license agreement to apply to the binaries and the rest

668
00:33:49,839 --> 00:33:53,960
of the project. Okay, oh, I can have a license

669
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,000
for this source code. I can write AYULA that does

670
00:33:57,039 --> 00:34:00,000
not impinge on your rights that the license gives you.

671
00:34:00,839 --> 00:34:03,559
I can put that ULA in the nugat package, and

672
00:34:03,559 --> 00:34:05,680
then lo and behold. Nugat has a way to say

673
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:09,239
require acceptance when you accept a Nugat package. So you

674
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,360
have to say I accept the terms of the ULA

675
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,960
AKAI will pay the maintenance fee because I am making money,

676
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,960
and you have to check that box. And now you

677
00:34:21,599 --> 00:34:26,199
have legally said that you are complying with the maintenance

678
00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:27,800
fee for any project that you want.

679
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: And that amounts to Diddley Squad, however, because we've all

680
00:34:30,519 --> 00:34:33,400
agreed to ULA's because otherwise we can't use the software.

681
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:33,639
Speaker 3: Yeah.

682
00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, So nobody's ever knocked on my door and said, hey,

683
00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:37,760
did you read that ULA?

684
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 3: Yeah. But if you remember, lawyers had a huge, huge

685
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,639
challenge when they first started trying to pick up open source,

686
00:34:44,679 --> 00:34:47,239
and they held up everything saying no, no, no, we

687
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,800
can't pull source code into the company that open source

688
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,079
license until we understand what those licenses will do to

689
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:57,760
us and our company. The maintenance fee puts a legal

690
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,320
document in there that if a lawyer sees it and

691
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,000
you've accepted it, you're on the hook for it. I

692
00:35:04,039 --> 00:35:06,440
believe it's written correctly. I've had another lawyer write it.

693
00:35:06,679 --> 00:35:08,400
You're now on the hook. So any lawyer that saw

694
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,000
it inside the company be like, we're on the hook

695
00:35:11,079 --> 00:35:11,320
for this.

696
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay.

697
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 3: And this is actually important because there are many maintainers

698
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:17,760
out there that I've come out and said, oh, you know,

699
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,639
I would I would pay I you know, get how

700
00:35:20,639 --> 00:35:22,920
sponsors is great. I would pay it, and my company,

701
00:35:23,079 --> 00:35:26,079
you know, should pay it. But you know, the procurement team,

702
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,880
I just they they won't do anything. They're so hard

703
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,199
to get work through, and I believe them. Procurement teams

704
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,440
are very challenging with my own company. You know, we

705
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,519
can spend six months with the company and their procurement

706
00:35:36,519 --> 00:35:37,920
team just trying to get them to pay us for

707
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,960
the legal agreement they already signed up for and the

708
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,760
services they're paying for. It's a challenge, I get it.

709
00:35:43,559 --> 00:35:46,559
So let's create a system by which the curement team

710
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:48,480
has to pay it because the legal team will show

711
00:35:48,519 --> 00:35:50,639
up and say, hey, you know this open source thing,

712
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:52,840
we already went through our time and figured out how

713
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,159
to deal with open source. Now you, as a procurement team,

714
00:35:55,559 --> 00:35:58,119
you now need to figure out how to deal with

715
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,119
open source projects that require this maintenance because you have

716
00:36:01,199 --> 00:36:03,480
to pay them because the license says that you have to.

717
00:36:03,599 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: And for big businesses with lawyers, I think that's probably

718
00:36:07,639 --> 00:36:11,159
a valid thing. What about all the small businesses.

719
00:36:10,679 --> 00:36:12,679
Speaker 2: But that's that's who we want to pay.

720
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: But what about a small business that's making a million

721
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,159
dollars a year and it's Joe and his wife and

722
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,360
they don't have lawyers. You know, maybe they do, but

723
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:21,760
they're going to take the chance. How are you going

724
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:23,639
to enforce? How are you going to enforce it?

725
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 3: So I've been slow walking the enforcement past the legal

726
00:36:29,199 --> 00:36:32,159
requirements that will hopefully build the structure that everything else

727
00:36:32,199 --> 00:36:36,280
stands on. Okay, I've had people ask, hey, what do

728
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,360
you do with the issues in the Wicks tool set.

729
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,840
We've called out that you check a box if you're

730
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,519
using money and you go through our templates, it says

731
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,519
you're using this for monetary value. Check the box it

732
00:36:47,519 --> 00:36:50,920
says you are sponsoring the project. So we're getting the

733
00:36:51,159 --> 00:36:52,679
education and awareness out there.

734
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 2: Now.

735
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:59,039
Speaker 3: There are some projects that I saw that lock their

736
00:36:59,159 --> 00:37:01,719
issue tracker unless you sponsor.

737
00:37:01,519 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 2: So you can't submit an issue.

738
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,519
Speaker 3: Enter that, you can't submit the issues, you can't get

739
00:37:05,559 --> 00:37:09,840
the issues unless you sponsor the projects. That's doable through

740
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,159
GitHub sponsors. Straight up, that's.

741
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,199
Speaker 1: Only if you're making money, right What about the student who.

742
00:37:15,079 --> 00:37:18,760
Speaker 3: Isn't Again, So that's the challenge of the enforcement on

743
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,119
that front for people that aren't making money. We have

744
00:37:21,159 --> 00:37:23,880
to find a place in there. After I made this announcement,

745
00:37:24,599 --> 00:37:27,719
the GitHub sponsors lead reached out to me and we

746
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,719
had some conversations about what could be done. So there,

747
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,639
what I'm saying is right now, we're in the beginning,

748
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:38,000
and I want to start the enforcement by assuming that

749
00:37:38,679 --> 00:37:41,840
the developers that said I want to be able to

750
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,760
help you and maintain your project, but I can't get

751
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,960
through procurement now have the tool they need to go

752
00:37:49,039 --> 00:37:51,079
to their legal team and say, I now need to

753
00:37:51,119 --> 00:37:54,239
pay this project because it has a legal requirement. Please

754
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,159
help me solve this issue with the procurement team.

755
00:37:57,559 --> 00:38:01,039
Speaker 2: And people have told me, but also coming to them

756
00:38:01,079 --> 00:38:04,039
with the documents to say here's how it solved exactly.

757
00:38:04,199 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not. Before it was like, you know, let's

758
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,039
say as an individual contributed company and you're using this

759
00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:11,920
project that you want to support it, and you're like, yes,

760
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:13,880
I want to help them, and you go to your

761
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,119
boss and your boss says, no, dude, too much work.

762
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,119
Let's not bother. Just just go do it and be done.

763
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:23,039
Now you're able to go to the boss and boss say, hey, boss,

764
00:38:23,159 --> 00:38:25,400
there's now this legal requirement. We have to do this.

765
00:38:26,119 --> 00:38:27,960
Boss will be like, well, if we're going to continue

766
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:29,639
this project, we have to go do with legal, we

767
00:38:29,679 --> 00:38:31,800
have to go do with procurement. They now have that tool,

768
00:38:32,159 --> 00:38:34,280
will they maybe say, you know what, forget it. Let's

769
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,039
just go use a different project that's free, that doesn't

770
00:38:37,079 --> 00:38:41,280
have this open source maintenance fee. Absolutely, that may absolutely happen.

771
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 1: So I have ideas. I have some ideas, which always

772
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,920
happens when I have these great conversations with guys like you.

773
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,400
But one idea is to have a sort of an

774
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:57,039
outside agency that does enforcement. And I don't because I think,

775
00:38:57,159 --> 00:39:00,079
you know, software developers, they don't want to be in

776
00:39:00,119 --> 00:39:03,199
that position. You know, nobody wants to be the bad

777
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,039
guy and have to on top of having to write

778
00:39:06,079 --> 00:39:08,239
good code. Now you got to wake up every morning

779
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,679
and wonder who's not paying me that needs to be

780
00:39:10,679 --> 00:39:14,239
paying me. So an outside agency is not like a

781
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,199
union or something, but just somebody that works on behalf

782
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,599
of contributors to enforce this. The other thing that I

783
00:39:21,639 --> 00:39:24,920
was thinking of was is gone from my head. It's

784
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:25,360
just gone.

785
00:39:25,599 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 3: These ideas are great. I want the ideas, and honestly,

786
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,199
if someone comes up with an idea and is inspired

787
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,360
by the open Source Maintenance Fee and says, ah, this

788
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,000
is a good idea, but it is fatally flawed this way.

789
00:39:38,039 --> 00:39:41,079
But I can create a system that works better. I

790
00:39:41,119 --> 00:39:44,159
hope that happens. Or people say, hey, here are different

791
00:39:44,199 --> 00:39:47,880
ways that you can do enforcement with the structure that

792
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,239
the open Source Maintenance fee happens, I'm going to write

793
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:52,880
them down. I have a discussion list on the open

794
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,039
Source Maintenance Fee dot org. It says, hey, if you

795
00:39:55,079 --> 00:39:57,719
have more facts that your more ideas, you want to add,

796
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:00,880
more questions that need to be answered, let's put them

797
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,280
up there. There is a place to have the conversation

798
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,079
to say, here's what we need to do. And I

799
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,079
want to be really clear. The Wix tool set is

800
00:40:09,079 --> 00:40:12,239
the first project to apply the open Source Maintenance Fee,

801
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,000
and we did so on the seventh, so a week

802
00:40:15,039 --> 00:40:16,119
ago today.

803
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,199
Speaker 2: The seventh of April, of April of.

804
00:40:18,199 --> 00:40:20,360
Speaker 3: Twenty twenty five, the seventh of April twenty twenty five,

805
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,159
so a week ago today. That has put all the

806
00:40:24,199 --> 00:40:26,679
pieces in place, and I've been then using that experience

807
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,239
to update the step by step list for maintainers on

808
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,039
the open Source Maintenance Fee dot org site. So if

809
00:40:33,039 --> 00:40:34,760
you want to go through it. It just lays out

810
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,000
all the five or seventh steps you have to do

811
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:38,039
to work your way through.

812
00:40:38,079 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 1: It's really cool, right, so I found I remembered the

813
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,639
second idea. Okay, the second idea was to require by

814
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:48,599
law companies to publish as software bill of materials. So

815
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,440
on every website in there about page or whatever, there

816
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,960
should be a link to a s bomb page and

817
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,280
then every dependency that they've taken must be listed there.

818
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,880
And that way would it be easier for an auditor,

819
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:01,719
even if the auditor was GitHub?

820
00:41:02,039 --> 00:41:03,039
Speaker 2: Right yep, you know.

821
00:41:03,119 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 1: GitHub seems like the logical place where this kind of

822
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,079
thing would happen for getthub repost. But maybe in another place.

823
00:41:09,119 --> 00:41:09,519
I don't know.

824
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,159
Speaker 3: I actually had someone ask me if we would try

825
00:41:12,199 --> 00:41:16,519
to get an SPDX identifier for the OSMF.

826
00:41:16,639 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 2: So.

827
00:41:17,159 --> 00:41:24,159
Speaker 3: SPDX is the software what identity system They have a

828
00:41:24,199 --> 00:41:26,239
way of saying s bombs. Basically, they're one of the

829
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:29,400
standards for specifying s bombs and one of the big

830
00:41:29,519 --> 00:41:32,519
features they've provided are the standard list for all the

831
00:41:32,599 --> 00:41:34,320
various open source licenses out there.

832
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:38,159
Speaker 1: Because it's advantageous for every software company to have an

833
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:42,760
s bomb, right Yes, it's absolutely advantageous to them. Yes,

834
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,440
because of security problems, right, and so you know when

835
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:47,480
there's a problem, oh, we're using.

836
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,079
Speaker 3: That, right. And if the maintenance fee was in SPDX,

837
00:41:50,599 --> 00:41:53,480
then you would just use the identifier and then you'd know, hey,

838
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,559
they're already doing this, and they would they'd all roll

839
00:41:55,599 --> 00:41:58,239
down the direction that you're saying. Now. Yeah, there's only

840
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:00,559
one project using the open source maintenance fee right now,

841
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,199
and we are slowly working our way through the experience

842
00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:08,960
of what does it mean to do so? And enforcement

843
00:42:09,039 --> 00:42:12,760
is an area where I'm trying to be extremely respectful

844
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,880
to the challenges that I know individual developers will have

845
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,920
inside their companies. I worked in Microsoft, I know big

846
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,199
company challenges. I spent a lot of time with lawyers

847
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:26,800
when I was first trying to get the WISK tools

848
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,039
set released as an open source I think part of

849
00:42:29,079 --> 00:42:31,880
that training helped me design the open source maintenance fee

850
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:34,880
is learn how to use lawyers to help you get

851
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:39,280
a problem solved. Where we go through enforcement is a question.

852
00:42:40,519 --> 00:42:44,400
I think getting the first foundation and then normalizing the

853
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:49,800
idea that maintainers should be paid to maintain the projects,

854
00:42:50,519 --> 00:42:53,559
and that if you don't want to use the project,

855
00:42:53,679 --> 00:42:57,039
and you don't want to pay a maintainer money for

856
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,480
them maintaining the project, then you can go take the

857
00:42:59,519 --> 00:43:02,400
source code because it's still available, it's still a source.

858
00:43:02,679 --> 00:43:05,519
You can go take the source code and maintain it yourself,

859
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,000
which is the alternative.

860
00:43:07,519 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: You know, in the interest of security. This is the

861
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,480
same reason that that bill got pass that requires everybody

862
00:43:13,519 --> 00:43:17,400
to allow cookies, yes or no. Right that is required

863
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,880
by law right in GDPR. Yeah, the GDPR. And so

864
00:43:22,119 --> 00:43:25,320
just like that the way that got passed, this could

865
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,960
be you know, you you must have an s bomb

866
00:43:28,119 --> 00:43:30,039
and you must be able to well.

867
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 2: I would point out that that is not enforced. No

868
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,079
one has ever been charged for not doing that. Yeah, so,

869
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,079
and yet lots of people have done it. Like enforcement

870
00:43:39,119 --> 00:43:41,840
is a separate issue here, yea, And I would argue

871
00:43:42,159 --> 00:43:46,519
long before you get to anywhere near that, you can

872
00:43:46,639 --> 00:43:50,079
have nudges from within GitHub. Like the main thing we're

873
00:43:50,079 --> 00:43:53,039
hoping for is a get hub. Here is poke at

874
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:58,480
obvious large organizations that are utilizing these resources to write, Hey,

875
00:43:58,679 --> 00:44:00,000
you know you should be making a contry.

876
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 3: Here is the path and to basically put a system

877
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:06,760
in place that starts allowing people to do the right thing.

878
00:44:07,079 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, make it reduced to friction doing the right thing.

879
00:44:10,119 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 3: He says, Look, you have to do this. So now

880
00:44:13,039 --> 00:44:14,880
the people that want to do the right thing are

881
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,199
now empowered to go take care of the larger systems

882
00:44:18,519 --> 00:44:22,000
that naturally would not change or continue to run the

883
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,119
way they do. And we will continue to have large

884
00:44:25,159 --> 00:44:28,280
companies with their procurement systems which are designed not to

885
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,840
spend money to you know, not spend money on maintainers

886
00:44:33,199 --> 00:44:36,519
for these projects. I mean. One of the interesting comments

887
00:44:36,559 --> 00:44:40,000
I got very recently was someone left a comment saying, hey,

888
00:44:40,679 --> 00:44:44,119
I will need some extra verification of to give you money.

889
00:44:44,159 --> 00:44:46,400
I will need some extra verification to know that you're

890
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,440
not a terrorist organization, right right, because my procurement team

891
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:53,880
can't fund terrorist organizations. And I was like, sure, whatever

892
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,000
you need, let me know, we'll answer those questions. But

893
00:44:57,039 --> 00:45:00,079
then I stopped and said, it is harder for the

894
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,000
the procurement team. The procurement team has higher standards than

895
00:45:04,159 --> 00:45:06,840
the developers do for taking the code, like you already

896
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,760
took the code the binary code usually and are using it,

897
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:13,719
and I don't remember a background check or anything like

898
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:17,079
that to take the bus. I heard terror because I

899
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:19,559
use my code. What we have done is create some

900
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:24,159
artificially high bar on the procurement and the sustaining the

901
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,880
project if projects want to be sustained by money, and

902
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,039
the way that you can take the code into the

903
00:45:30,039 --> 00:45:33,119
sources world. And we've also created a culture where I

904
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,000
just take it and I don't have to do anything

905
00:45:36,039 --> 00:45:37,239
else after that.

906
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 2: Well, and there's an advantage to that too, because you

907
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,199
want to take it out for a spin. You want

908
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:44,440
to prove that it's valuable to the organization, Like you

909
00:45:44,519 --> 00:45:46,360
need to get to a place before you even have

910
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,000
the conversation about you know, do I want to spend

911
00:45:49,039 --> 00:45:51,679
money on this or not? I mean, I do appreciate

912
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,800
and I've included the link to how wix tool sets

913
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:56,840
maintenance fee is set up where it's based on the

914
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:58,840
size of the organization with the size of the contribution.

915
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,519
Is because this now roll the other way where a

916
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,760
CFO should be able to go to gethub and say, hey,

917
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:11,480
what libraries is my company using? What is the total

918
00:46:11,519 --> 00:46:14,880
fee I should be paying. My experience with CFOs is

919
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,679
they'll kind of check once a year, but don't make

920
00:46:17,719 --> 00:46:19,119
it more complicated than that.

921
00:46:19,599 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 3: And so we fell upon I fell upon GitHub sponsors

922
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,519
because it was very straightforward for a lot of maintainers

923
00:46:25,559 --> 00:46:29,199
to be able to access that directly without having to

924
00:46:29,199 --> 00:46:31,559
do a whole lot of extra work. And also because

925
00:46:31,599 --> 00:46:35,840
gethub sponsors has may have relationships has larritionships a lot

926
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:40,679
of companies through their enterprise system, and through that enterprise system,

927
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,280
you can say pay for sponsorships by invoice. It doesn't

928
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:46,159
have to be a credit card. So you can walk up

929
00:46:46,199 --> 00:46:49,039
with an invoice to get Hub and say here, I

930
00:46:49,119 --> 00:46:51,320
want you know, give me. I think the minimum invoice

931
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:53,159
is like five thousand dollars. It's a pretty large number.

932
00:46:53,159 --> 00:46:55,920
But you can pay an invoice in bulk and know

933
00:46:56,199 --> 00:46:58,519
I will pay my maintenance fees, you know, in bulk

934
00:46:58,599 --> 00:47:01,320
for this amount of time for all projects.

935
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, so GitHub will disperse it.

936
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:04,079
Speaker 3: There's a process.

937
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 2: Well that's important, right, Like that's the important part of it.

938
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 3: And it can also wire straight into your enterprise buss.

939
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,039
So if you're already paying for repose and you know

940
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,320
actions and all time, and you know space inside GitHub

941
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:18,320
with they already have that, then your sponsors just end

942
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:22,079
up as line items inside that nice payment system.

943
00:47:22,119 --> 00:47:22,519
Speaker 2: Already.

944
00:47:22,679 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what we don't want. We don't want

945
00:47:25,039 --> 00:47:30,679
the Spotify model. Like imagine GitHub. In order for you

946
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,400
to access any of this open store of source stuff,

947
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,039
you'd have to pay GitHub, you know, ten dollars a

948
00:47:36,039 --> 00:47:38,840
month or thirty dollars a month or whatever, and then

949
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,239
you can use whatever you want for free, and then

950
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,760
that gets dispersed among all of the projects. Like that

951
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,440
model is horrible. It's horrible for the music business, and

952
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:50,880
it would be even more horrible for the software business.

953
00:47:51,159 --> 00:47:53,119
I'm just the anti patterns are community.

954
00:47:53,199 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 3: I've seen proposals for doing that through like Newgate, like

955
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:58,719
nugat would get a bulk upload and then send out

956
00:47:58,760 --> 00:47:59,880
whoever has most downloads.

957
00:48:00,079 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 2: I don't like that at all.

958
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 3: I don't like any of those systems either, because they

959
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,559
all can be gamed. With the numbers. With the open

960
00:48:06,599 --> 00:48:09,000
source maintenance fee, you basically say, here are the projects

961
00:48:09,039 --> 00:48:12,480
I use. Whatever you know in your package reference or

962
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,360
your package cafig. If you're still using that, you look

963
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,440
at your packages you depend on. You chose them. They

964
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:19,119
didn't get in there because someone out of them. You

965
00:48:19,199 --> 00:48:21,360
chose them. You go to each others project, you go, oh,

966
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:22,760
there's the fee for that one. There's a feed for

967
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,039
that win there's a feed for that, and there's a fee,

968
00:48:24,039 --> 00:48:26,320
but there all of the things that I use and

969
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,719
the people that I depend on, I've now paid the fee.

970
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,719
You're done. You don't have to go down some crazy train,

971
00:48:32,159 --> 00:48:33,199
you know, tree.

972
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,880
Speaker 2: And ultimately the maintainers are setting the fear for their projects.

973
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 3: Correct.

974
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,079
Speaker 2: And if you don't like that fee, don't use that project.

975
00:48:40,159 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 3: Right, if a fee is like ten thousand dollars per month,

976
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,519
you might go, hmm, I think I can have an

977
00:48:45,559 --> 00:48:49,280
engineer use that source FEDE and maintain it myself and

978
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,760
all the overhead that goes with staying on top of

979
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,840
the source code, being awarable, security vulnerabilities, that whole list

980
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,400
I brought back. You're like, yeah, that makes sense. But

981
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:01,639
for a small company, ten dollars And I've had many

982
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:05,639
business people tell me ten dollars is too low, just flat.

983
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:09,159
Speaker 1: That depends on depends on the value right that you're providing, correct.

984
00:49:09,199 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 3: And so the Wix toolset I use as a tiered model.

985
00:49:12,039 --> 00:49:13,760
So we're going to try to also show that where

986
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,440
if you're a small company less than twenty people, it's ten,

987
00:49:16,519 --> 00:49:19,320
if you're twenty to one hundred people, it's forty. And

988
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,920
if you're over that at sixty. That tiered model basic

989
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:23,599
to say that you're getting more value out of it

990
00:49:23,599 --> 00:49:28,320
as a bigger company, that those tiering systems will see

991
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:30,360
how all that works. But the goal is basically, look,

992
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,400
nobody's arguing that ten dollars is too much.

993
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, like it just if it is.

994
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 3: It's like a dev at one hundred thousand dollars a year,

995
00:49:38,039 --> 00:49:39,800
it's like two hours of their time for the year.

996
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,400
So if you can take the source code, build it,

997
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,119
maintain it, keep up the date on all those things

998
00:49:45,119 --> 00:49:46,960
for less than two dollars per year, then that your

999
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,719
procurement team's right. You should copy the code and maintain

1000
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:53,559
it yourself, right, right, But two hours is not a

1001
00:49:53,559 --> 00:49:56,159
lot of time to keep up even build a project

1002
00:49:56,199 --> 00:49:58,480
and keep tracking. Come on, it doesn't work, and that's

1003
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,159
why we want maintainers. Do you see the reactions when

1004
00:50:01,159 --> 00:50:04,480
other projects say, hey, we're gonna not be open source anymore.

1005
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,079
You can see people being upset. She's like, look, you

1006
00:50:07,119 --> 00:50:09,639
have the source code, you can build it, and they're like, oh,

1007
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:11,679
that takes work. I'm like, wait, so.

1008
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 2: You know it takes work. You know enough to know

1009
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:15,480
why I'm where I am.

1010
00:50:15,519 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 3: You're complaining that it takes work, but we're not doing

1011
00:50:18,519 --> 00:50:21,760
anything to support the people doing that work. And I

1012
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,800
want to be really, really really clear, because I don't

1013
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,559
think I've said this yet. These are not support contracts.

1014
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,159
These are not I if you're going to get fixed

1015
00:50:29,159 --> 00:50:31,239
my bugs, you're going to fix my features, you're going

1016
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:34,000
to write the code. It's not that, it's essentially the

1017
00:50:34,039 --> 00:50:36,920
work it takes to keep a project running that people

1018
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:38,559
don't see. I know a lot of people don't even

1019
00:50:38,599 --> 00:50:41,440
know that's there, but just sucks up so much time

1020
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:43,920
of a Maintainer's so much energy out of a maintainer.

1021
00:50:44,039 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 1: Have you published the documents and the mechanisms to go

1022
00:50:47,039 --> 00:50:49,679
ahead and do this in your own projects? Like if

1023
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,480
somebody's listening and they say, yeah, I want to implement

1024
00:50:52,519 --> 00:50:54,719
this in my project, do you have a little zip

1025
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:57,360
file they can download and with instructions and everything.

1026
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:57,559
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1027
00:50:57,599 --> 00:51:00,199
Speaker 3: So if you go to open Source Maintenance Fee dot org,

1028
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,679
you will get presented with two options at the top.

1029
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,360
If you're a consumer. It explains why the open source

1030
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,159
maintenance fee is there. And I have a six minute

1031
00:51:09,199 --> 00:51:13,199
video where I tell pieces of this story in one

1032
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,400
unified video, and then it breaks it down with the

1033
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,920
fact and things like that. There's a separate route you

1034
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,679
go through as a maintainer, and that essentially lays out

1035
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,400
the Hey, you're a maintainer. Here's why you should consider

1036
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,400
taking a maintenance fee all the work you're doing. Because

1037
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,119
when I talk to maintainers, a lot of them had

1038
00:51:28,159 --> 00:51:30,199
never thought about all the work they'd been doing. But

1039
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,079
as I was talking to them, when I was first

1040
00:51:32,119 --> 00:51:33,960
vetting this idea, a lot of them would like get

1041
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,000
to that point. They all start nodding, going, oh, yeah,

1042
00:51:36,039 --> 00:51:37,880
I do a lot of wow, And I thought, oh,

1043
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:39,880
that's a lot of work, isn't it. So there's that,

1044
00:51:40,079 --> 00:51:42,599
and then there's next one is this five step process.

1045
00:51:42,639 --> 00:51:45,639
I think of the steps to do, and the first

1046
00:51:45,639 --> 00:51:49,880
step is communicate the change. Tell your community that you're

1047
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:52,639
going to introduce a maintenance fee at some point in

1048
00:51:52,679 --> 00:51:54,519
time in the future, with the date whatever that date

1049
00:51:54,599 --> 00:51:56,519
is for your product. And then it says here's how

1050
00:51:56,519 --> 00:51:59,000
you can set up with GIOB sponsors. And then here's

1051
00:51:59,039 --> 00:52:01,239
what you do and you read me, and then here's

1052
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,800
the EULA. By the way, here's a EULA already man

1053
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,880
verified by the fire Giant lawyers. So if you want it,

1054
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,559
you can have it. It should work for you, no problem.

1055
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:12,960
I can't guarantee that. My lawyer won't let me tell

1056
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,679
you that. We guarantee that because lawyers won't ever do that.

1057
00:52:16,119 --> 00:52:17,920
Speaker 2: You're a lawyer.

1058
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:20,800
Speaker 3: But it's good and because we got feedback on the

1059
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,440
first draft that I had up there that was not good.

1060
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:25,400
It had problems, and I got plenty of feedback from

1061
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:28,599
the internet that it was bad. But we fixed those bugs.

1062
00:52:28,639 --> 00:52:30,760
No problem. And then it goes through on how to

1063
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:33,320
add the EULA to your package. And I have steps

1064
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:38,880
for both MPM, for for MPM and for new gits

1065
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:40,639
because those are the ones that I understand enough of

1066
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:42,239
to do that. But if people come along and say, hey,

1067
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,400
here's how I could do it for other types, I'd

1068
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:48,079
love to get that information on the website. But it's

1069
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:51,119
it's like a five step process. And the big one

1070
00:52:51,199 --> 00:52:55,039
up front is copy this blank you know this message,

1071
00:52:55,039 --> 00:52:57,599
replace the date, and send it to the place where

1072
00:52:57,639 --> 00:53:00,920
your people are. Create an issue, pin the top, put

1073
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:04,000
a discussion, put at the top, say we're doing this,

1074
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:07,079
and then you do the rest of the steps and

1075
00:53:07,159 --> 00:53:10,719
it will take you a day, I mean or two

1076
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:13,599
to do it. It's not hard to step up. Just

1077
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:15,360
had to get the I mean the hardest part was

1078
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,920
getting the yula put together that passed all the rules.

1079
00:53:18,079 --> 00:53:20,599
Now you just copy and paste it and replace your

1080
00:53:20,639 --> 00:53:23,039
license inside your your nigga peck and had.

1081
00:53:23,159 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 1: I can't believe we haven't asked you this question, but

1082
00:53:25,079 --> 00:53:27,000
how did it work out for you so far? And

1083
00:53:27,159 --> 00:53:28,559
how long has it been in place?

1084
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:30,119
Speaker 3: It's been seven days?

1085
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 1: Wow, Okay.

1086
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:34,639
Speaker 3: At the point of recording, it's been in force in

1087
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:38,239
seven days. It has been announced for a month and

1088
00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:41,360
a half ish, because I announced it four weeks right

1089
00:53:41,360 --> 00:53:42,880
after the maintenance fee was announced, which was the end

1090
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:47,760
of February, okay. And I got a lot of feedback

1091
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:53,639
and various questions up front, not a lot of pushback

1092
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:58,559
on doing it, not a lot of pushback on why

1093
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,679
or none of that real negativity of that. It could

1094
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:03,320
be that they're not saying it. I'm sure they're just

1095
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:04,920
not saying out loud they're playing people. I'm sure they're

1096
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:06,480
very upset that we're making.

1097
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:06,920
Speaker 2: Do this work.

1098
00:54:07,079 --> 00:54:09,159
Speaker 3: I have got the feedback from some people say, hey,

1099
00:54:09,599 --> 00:54:11,119
this is a lot of work to go through our

1100
00:54:11,199 --> 00:54:14,480
legal team and our procurement team, and I'm like yep, yep,

1101
00:54:15,119 --> 00:54:17,480
we would pay you money, but the procurement team's really

1102
00:54:17,519 --> 00:54:20,000
a problem. I'm like, yeah, I know, like, well what

1103
00:54:20,039 --> 00:54:22,000
do I do. I'm like, dude, it's your procurement team.

1104
00:54:22,639 --> 00:54:25,320
Like you're going to have to educate them, and every

1105
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:27,840
company's procurement team needs to be educated so.

1106
00:54:28,119 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 2: Well, and you're going to build up more language around

1107
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,639
how to talk to your procurrement team as this goes by,

1108
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,719
because part of this is what's the cost of us

1109
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:38,559
moving off of this project or maintaining itself and like

1110
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:42,719
showing larger dollar signs to the CFO, then get this

1111
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,159
through procurement so we can keep working.

1112
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:47,800
Speaker 3: So one of the feedback I got from people was

1113
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:50,880
our one idea I got out there was hey, be

1114
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:52,599
cool if you had a list of companies that had

1115
00:54:52,599 --> 00:54:55,679
already adopted this as yeah, we're doing this, so I'll

1116
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,960
try to go there. We're early in this, and that's

1117
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:00,599
why I was really happy you got had me on

1118
00:55:00,639 --> 00:55:01,239
because I just.

1119
00:55:01,199 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 2: Wanted super early stages. I think the main thing you

1120
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:07,920
READNACT right now, Rob, more than anything is more projects

1121
00:55:07,920 --> 00:55:08,920
to set up like this.

1122
00:55:09,159 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's my feeling is that I was That's

1123
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:13,679
why I'm really glad you guys had me here is

1124
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:16,800
because we can get the message out to maintainers so

1125
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:20,559
the day can start going, Yeah, you know what I am.

1126
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:23,719
I know exactly what he's saying. I know exactly how

1127
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:27,360
he feels. And when I first announced this at the

1128
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,840
end of February, I got so many dms from maintainers

1129
00:55:31,119 --> 00:55:33,119
and you know them, you know who they are. They

1130
00:55:33,159 --> 00:55:36,760
DM me saying this is brilliant. I was like, great,

1131
00:55:37,119 --> 00:55:38,960
but I didn't have the ule at that time, and

1132
00:55:39,519 --> 00:55:42,280
there's a leap of faith that you have to do it.

1133
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,199
We've seen a couple so I want to talk about

1134
00:55:45,199 --> 00:55:47,599
the commercialization that projects has been going through, because that's

1135
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,960
that's what we're kind of I'm hoping we can counter here.

1136
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,800
But the idea that maintainers will be like, you know what,

1137
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:58,280
my time is worth something, sure, and I should be

1138
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:00,800
paid for this set of work that I am doing.

1139
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:02,840
That actually is taking a lot of energy out of me.

1140
00:56:03,159 --> 00:56:05,199
And if I could put this into my project, I'm

1141
00:56:05,199 --> 00:56:07,880
not going to retire. I might not have enough users

1142
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,519
to make a business, but one developer I talked to

1143
00:56:10,599 --> 00:56:16,800
said he probably has fifty ten to fifty companies using

1144
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,000
his software. I was like, so that's like, you know,

1145
00:56:19,039 --> 00:56:22,079
one hundred to five hundred bucks a month. He's like, yeah,

1146
00:56:22,119 --> 00:56:25,440
that's about a weekend. Okay. Oh if I had five

1147
00:56:25,519 --> 00:56:27,599
hundred bucks a month that I could do something fun

1148
00:56:27,639 --> 00:56:30,440
on a weekend, then I could spend the other weekend

1149
00:56:30,719 --> 00:56:33,639
maintaining my project. Because he's just like, why am I bothering? Yeah,

1150
00:56:33,679 --> 00:56:36,159
he's and he'll walk. Those companies will be out of luck.

1151
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,199
Speaker 2: But you hit on the key point, which is the

1152
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:42,840
alternative is they head towards commercialization, which is going to

1153
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:45,639
make it even more expensive for a bunch of people

1154
00:56:45,639 --> 00:56:48,519
who want to use this. It's going to make ask

1155
00:56:48,559 --> 00:56:50,760
a developer to do thing I maintainer, do things they

1156
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:54,280
don't want to do, like operating a business like that.

1157
00:56:54,559 --> 00:56:57,519
That is a weaker choice. Then here's the low friction

1158
00:56:57,599 --> 00:56:59,559
way that lets everybody keep doing what they're good.

1159
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,840
Speaker 3: At, and it walks away from open source, which I

1160
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,360
don't want. I don't want that to be the way.

1161
00:57:05,199 --> 00:57:07,079
Speaker 2: The alternative open source starts to implode.

1162
00:57:07,159 --> 00:57:10,239
Speaker 3: Yeah right, It basically says, you know what open source failed,

1163
00:57:10,679 --> 00:57:14,239
and that requires me to say, yeah, no, that idea

1164
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:18,199
that I had well in nineteen ninety nine, and then

1165
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:20,840
finally made a reality in two thousand and four that

1166
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:22,719
you know, companies should do open source and it should

1167
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,039
be a thing, and people and developer should do open source.

1168
00:57:25,079 --> 00:57:27,480
You should be able to go out there and create

1169
00:57:27,519 --> 00:57:30,840
communities around your source code. Wow, that should be possible.

1170
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:33,480
It just says no, don't or don't be successful because

1171
00:57:33,519 --> 00:57:34,599
you will end up in a space.

1172
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:37,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can do it, you just won't be successful.

1173
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:38,559
Speaker 3: Where you hate it. Yeah, just don't be successful. Don't

1174
00:57:38,719 --> 00:57:41,159
don't have your project work out because you will end

1175
00:57:41,239 --> 00:57:42,920
up in a space that you want, or if you do,

1176
00:57:43,079 --> 00:57:45,039
you have to enter that space where I don't care

1177
00:57:45,199 --> 00:57:47,159
about any of you, which is a completely different way

1178
00:57:47,199 --> 00:57:49,079
of interacting with your project and the community. It's not

1179
00:57:49,159 --> 00:57:53,360
a community. It pains me and I'm I'm very conflicted

1180
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:57,079
in this whole space still because I'm seeing people commercializing

1181
00:57:57,119 --> 00:58:00,960
their projects. At the same time, I couldn't reach out.

1182
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:02,840
I couldn't reach out to everybody. So I'm hoping here,

1183
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:04,519
at least take a little maintenance fee and go you

1184
00:58:04,559 --> 00:58:06,519
know what, I will follow that because there's a list

1185
00:58:06,639 --> 00:58:08,440
or no, no, I'm going to go route like that,

1186
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:10,760
but a different way or a different spin on it great.

1187
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:13,039
I want to see where people go. I just want

1188
00:58:13,039 --> 00:58:15,320
maintainers to have an option that they don't have to

1189
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:19,119
give up and commercialize or just walk away, and they

1190
00:58:19,119 --> 00:58:21,480
can have a space that you know what, I could

1191
00:58:21,519 --> 00:58:26,440
fund a bit of my world here and feel good

1192
00:58:26,599 --> 00:58:31,000
about this space and if you know, and they'll have

1193
00:58:31,039 --> 00:58:34,920
other maintainers with them. I'm out here, right. So people

1194
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:36,360
told me I was gonna get fired at Microsoft when

1195
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:37,480
I said I was going to try to open source

1196
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:41,400
my little project. It didn't. I was there for eight

1197
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,559
more years until I decided to retire. I'm doing this now.

1198
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:46,760
I was afraid I was going to get lambasted off

1199
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:50,280
the internet. I haven't been, and I hope so we

1200
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:53,000
could do something to change the ecosystem, because that's where

1201
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:53,519
I want us.

1202
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,559
Speaker 1: Well, I have a few open source projects that are

1203
00:58:56,599 --> 00:58:59,679
popular that then I think I might visit this with

1204
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,480
So yeah, I'm going to be looking through my repos

1205
00:59:03,519 --> 00:59:03,880
and it.

1206
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,639
Speaker 2: Looks like a weekend's worth of work. Yeah. To learn

1207
00:59:06,679 --> 00:59:09,320
the pattern, yeah, and put it into your project.

1208
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:12,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yah, Yeah, you follow pattern and if there's issues,

1209
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:15,280
you know, send them to me and will revise the

1210
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:16,599
document and make it better.

1211
00:59:16,679 --> 00:59:18,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the more we can refine the material the better.

1212
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:23,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly, it's good stuff. Yeah, that's that's the

1213
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:26,280
I hope we can get to a better space.

1214
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:28,079
Speaker 1: I'm sure we will at some point.

1215
00:59:28,199 --> 00:59:30,599
Speaker 3: Can I add a couple of gripes at the end here? Yeah,

1216
00:59:30,639 --> 00:59:32,159
go ahead, you could try to stick where you want,

1217
00:59:32,159 --> 00:59:34,760
all right. So one people will say it's a rug pull.

1218
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,440
You're going to get that the whole open source maintenance fee,

1219
00:59:38,559 --> 00:59:41,480
any charging for anything turns into rug poole. I don't

1220
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:43,320
have a good answer that, because they're not entirely wrong.

1221
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:44,960
It is a bit of a rug pull. It is

1222
00:59:45,119 --> 00:59:46,639
we're changing the rules on you.

1223
00:59:46,679 --> 00:59:49,079
Speaker 2: The ultimate rug pool is a project you're depending on

1224
00:59:49,199 --> 00:59:52,159
no longer being dependent and being maintained. Right, which rug

1225
00:59:52,159 --> 00:59:53,400
pole would you like? Yeah?

1226
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, the alternative is exactly. The alternative is they just

1227
00:59:56,400 --> 01:00:00,480
go away. And my hope is that we can get

1228
01:00:00,559 --> 01:00:02,519
out get to a place where it's no longer a

1229
01:00:02,639 --> 01:00:05,280
rug pole. Because everybody expects it that companies walk up

1230
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:08,159
to a project, go man, this one doesn't take a

1231
01:00:08,199 --> 01:00:10,559
maintenance fee or anything. How do we know that the

1232
01:00:10,599 --> 01:00:13,320
companies the project is going to stick around for us?

1233
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:15,039
So I'd love for us to get to the other

1234
01:00:15,079 --> 01:00:17,840
side where it's not a rug pull, it's a you

1235
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:19,840
need to do this so that we can, like, we

1236
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:22,000
would like to have some interaction here, so we know

1237
01:00:22,519 --> 01:00:24,679
that you'll continue to maintain this project for us. So

1238
01:00:24,679 --> 01:00:27,760
I'd love for the to turn around. Maintainers may still

1239
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:29,400
say I don't want money, because I don't want money,

1240
01:00:29,519 --> 01:00:31,719
that's fine. I'd love for it to be turned around,

1241
01:00:31,719 --> 01:00:34,880
so it's not a rug pull. The second right is

1242
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:38,400
that I've been seeing this a lot as the commercialization

1243
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:42,800
has started happening, or as this whole all these issues

1244
01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:45,599
have popped up. I see people saying they shouldn't have

1245
01:00:45,679 --> 01:00:48,159
made an open source in the first place if they

1246
01:00:48,159 --> 01:00:51,000
didn't want to give it away for free, and it

1247
01:00:51,519 --> 01:00:54,199
just it. It makes me so mad.

1248
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:56,239
Speaker 2: Is an awesome piece of ignorance there.

1249
01:00:57,039 --> 01:01:01,400
Speaker 3: Because I didn't make it open source to make it free.

1250
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:05,239
I made it open source so that people could join

1251
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:08,440
and we could build something right right, But that's not

1252
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,280
what happened. The fact that the source code is available

1253
01:01:11,519 --> 01:01:14,239
for you to do as you wish with it, as

1254
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:19,000
in freedom to go forth, is what this is about.

1255
01:01:19,559 --> 01:01:22,840
It was never about me giving my time away for

1256
01:01:23,079 --> 01:01:28,159
twenty five years for free and having people not appreciate it.

1257
01:01:28,199 --> 01:01:31,000
That was never the goal. And it also is never

1258
01:01:31,039 --> 01:01:32,719
the goal that we'd get to the end twenty five

1259
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:36,480
years later and say, haha, I'm now going to charge

1260
01:01:36,519 --> 01:01:38,480
you for this thing that you become dependent on.

1261
01:01:39,519 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 2: That was the goal. That's what I wanted all along.

1262
01:01:42,679 --> 01:01:45,119
Speaker 1: Like, come on, well, and the fact is right, you're

1263
01:01:45,119 --> 01:01:45,599
not paying.

1264
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 3: No maintainer's doing that.

1265
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:49,079
Speaker 1: You're not paying if you're not making money on it.

1266
01:01:49,079 --> 01:01:51,159
If you are making money on it, it should be

1267
01:01:51,199 --> 01:01:52,639
less of an issue exactly.

1268
01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:56,039
Speaker 3: But this whole attitude I see about. They never should

1269
01:01:56,039 --> 01:01:57,599
have made it free in the first place.

1270
01:01:57,679 --> 01:02:01,159
Speaker 1: Say just I get so torq staggering bullshit.

1271
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:05,360
Speaker 2: That never made it free. I expected contributions. They never came.

1272
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:10,480
Now I'm buried either pay me or contribute. Well, not anymore.

1273
01:02:11,079 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 3: You know, I don't even expect contributions, like like, let's

1274
01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:17,079
be like, even as a maintainer, I didn't expect contributions.

1275
01:02:17,159 --> 01:02:20,920
I wanted people talking about it, helping people participating, working together.

1276
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:26,320
I would have my project suffered significantly in documentation because

1277
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:29,519
I'd hope that people would contribute what they learned is

1278
01:02:29,559 --> 01:02:31,800
a great contribution and just write it down and give

1279
01:02:31,840 --> 01:02:33,599
it back to us. Nobody did that. They wrote it

1280
01:02:33,599 --> 01:02:36,159
on their own blogs in their own places, and they

1281
01:02:36,199 --> 01:02:38,480
spread it all about the internet. They never came back

1282
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:40,920
to a project. That's probably partly a failure on my

1283
01:02:41,039 --> 01:02:43,920
maintenance of my project and my doctition and my community.

1284
01:02:44,239 --> 01:02:47,159
But the goal was that people would work together and

1285
01:02:47,159 --> 01:02:48,679
we could all be set up ninjas together.

1286
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:49,159
Speaker 2: Yep.

1287
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:52,239
Speaker 3: Right, those sixteen people you talked about the beginning, Yeah,

1288
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:55,119
those my people, right, that's why we're out here, right,

1289
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:59,559
we're making these things happen, and we are not alone.

1290
01:03:00,239 --> 01:03:02,320
And then there's way, way, way too many people are

1291
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:03,800
out here. Well, it's free, so I'm just going to

1292
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:06,400
use it. And I can't believe that you didn't take

1293
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:08,800
care of I issue ten years ago when someone else

1294
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:09,239
opened it.

1295
01:03:09,519 --> 01:03:13,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. The original mantra of the open source community was

1296
01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:18,000
this small group of peers building stuff and helping each

1297
01:03:18,039 --> 01:03:20,639
other to make it better. Right, And that's I think

1298
01:03:20,719 --> 01:03:24,199
one tenth of one percent of the audience is actually

1299
01:03:24,239 --> 01:03:26,119
out there. And I'm not saying anything bad about that.

1300
01:03:26,159 --> 01:03:28,840
It's like, but recognize where you're sitting. Yeah, there's a

1301
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:30,880
whole other show here to talk about. How do we

1302
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:36,039
work with contributors to just recognize their value. But we

1303
01:03:36,079 --> 01:03:38,320
can do that today. Let's work on the reality of

1304
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:40,039
where we are right now, which is that most of

1305
01:03:40,079 --> 01:03:43,400
these open source projects have a maintainer and that person

1306
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:44,559
needs help. Rob.

1307
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:48,159
Speaker 1: We got to pull the clock here and say thank

1308
01:03:48,199 --> 01:03:50,920
you very much. This is great. It's a great idea,

1309
01:03:51,079 --> 01:03:54,440
it's great stuff. I hope that I can get involved

1310
01:03:54,599 --> 01:03:57,840
in it, and I hope other people listening will evaluate

1311
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:02,320
their open source projects and see whether this makes sense

1312
01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:02,719
to you.

1313
01:04:03,039 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 3: It's the beginning of a conversation that we need to have.

1314
01:04:06,159 --> 01:04:09,000
I'm hoping it can unlock more ideas so that we

1315
01:04:09,159 --> 01:04:12,199
get to a place that is sustainable for all these maintainers.

1316
01:04:12,800 --> 01:04:14,400
Thanks Rob, Thanks guys.

1317
01:04:14,119 --> 01:04:16,280
Speaker 1: And thank you for listening, and we'll see you next

1318
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:39,239
time on dot net rocks. Dot dot net Rocks is

1319
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:43,000
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1320
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:47,400
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1321
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:50,360
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01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:55,480
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01:04:55,519 --> 01:04:57,360
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1324
01:04:57,639 --> 01:05:02,440
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1325
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:05,280
and access to the full archives going back to show

1326
01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:09,079
number one, recorded in September two thousand and two. And

1327
01:05:09,199 --> 01:05:11,599
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01:05:11,599 --> 01:05:15,079
in business. Now go write some code. See you next time.

1329
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 3: You got JAD middle vans. Then I