WEBVTT 1 00:00:11.800 --> 00:00:16.559 Hello everyone, and welcome to Talk Nerdy. Today is Monday, 2 00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:20.039 August third, twenty twenty six, and I'm the host of 3 00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:23.079 the show Doctor Kara Santa Maria. And this is the 4 00:00:23.160 --> 00:00:26.440 last of three episode intros that I am pre recording 5 00:00:27.079 --> 00:00:30.600 before I leave for a trip to Australia and New 6 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:33.399 Zealand with the other podcast that I work on, The 7 00:00:33.439 --> 00:00:37.200 Skeptics Guide to the Universe. I should be getting back today. 8 00:00:37.320 --> 00:00:40.320 Time travel is weird like that, isn't it. So next 9 00:00:40.359 --> 00:00:43.359 week I will make sure to thank any patrons that 10 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:45.520 I missed in the meantime. 11 00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:48.200 And now I say we just dive into it. This 12 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:53.000 is a fascinating episode. I had the opportunity to chat 13 00:00:53.079 --> 00:00:58.079 with doctor Rupica Rissom. She is a professor of Digital 14 00:00:58.159 --> 00:01:03.159 Humanities and Social Engage at Dartmouth, where her research explores 15 00:01:03.200 --> 00:01:08.519 how histories of race, empire, and technology shape the modern world. 16 00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:14.040 She's written several books, including New Digital Worlds, and was 17 00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:19.480 a co editor of Anti Racist Community Engagement and The 18 00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:24.840 Digital Black Atlantic. She's also the past president of the 19 00:01:24.879 --> 00:01:28.439 Association for Computers and the Humanities. But today we're going 20 00:01:28.519 --> 00:01:33.680 to be talking about her newest book. It's called Data Empire. 21 00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:39.840 The power of information to organize, control and dominate. So, 22 00:01:39.959 --> 00:01:47.680 without any further ado, here she is doctor Rupica. Rissom Well, Rupica, 23 00:01:47.799 --> 00:01:49.680 thank you so much for joining me today. 24 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:52.159 Thank you so much. Care I'm excited to be here. 25 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:55.920 I'm so pumped to talk about not just your new book, 26 00:01:55.959 --> 00:01:58.000 but also all of the work that you do and 27 00:01:58.040 --> 00:02:01.560 how it feeds into this that you have to tell, 28 00:02:01.879 --> 00:02:06.079 which I think is it's one of those interesting ideas 29 00:02:06.079 --> 00:02:09.800 that is unique in that we don't often, I guess, 30 00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:16.680 think about history and power structures having to do with data, 31 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:19.800 especially historically. I think more and more people are being 32 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:23.840 attuned to that now. But so it's like a unique 33 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:28.280 way of telling this important insight but also incredibly ubiquitous 34 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:31.800 and probably everybody goes duh once you start to talk 35 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:32.800 about it, right. 36 00:02:33.800 --> 00:02:36.280 Absolutely, I feel like that's sort of the story of 37 00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:40.360 my life, which is I'm saying things that I feel 38 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:45.400 like are very very obvious, and yeah, in conversation they're not, 39 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:48.400 but once we start talking about it, all of a sudden, 40 00:02:48.639 --> 00:02:50.080 those dots get connected. 41 00:02:50.719 --> 00:02:51.400 Absolutely. 42 00:02:51.479 --> 00:02:56.120 So before we even get into the book, let's dig 43 00:02:56.199 --> 00:03:00.759 into sort of your academic positioning, because it's a very 44 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:08.240 interesting multidisciplinary position. I guess, Wow, that wasn't redundant at all. 45 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:12.400 So you are an associate professor of Digital Humanities and 46 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:17.840 Social Engagement at Dartmouth. What department or are you like 47 00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:19.400 matrix between departments. 48 00:03:19.840 --> 00:03:23.120 I'm actually a full professor now as ten days ago. 49 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:25.919 Stop it, I love it. Okay, I'm gonna update that 50 00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:28.759 for the intro. And I'm so congratulation. 51 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:33.000 Thank you. I'm very excited. It's been a long time. 52 00:03:33.599 --> 00:03:37.280 And yes, I am this professor of this thing called 53 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:41.680 Digital Humanities and Social Engagement. But I'm situated in two departments, 54 00:03:41.719 --> 00:03:45.919 the Film and Media Studies department and the Compared Literature Department. 55 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:48.560 Ah interesting, Okay, I. 56 00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:52.439 Can make this way more complicated by explaining that I 57 00:03:52.479 --> 00:03:56.000 have a PhD in English, and I started out my 58 00:03:56.159 --> 00:03:59.639 career at Salem State University of Public University in Massachusetts, 59 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:03.759 where I was in an English and a higher education 60 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:07.800 and so I just go, I go with They'll take 61 00:04:07.879 --> 00:04:11.000 me really anywhere that wants to let me do my work. 62 00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:12.120 I love it. 63 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:14.719 You know where I did my PhD Media Studies was 64 00:04:14.759 --> 00:04:16.079 in the psychology department. 65 00:04:16.360 --> 00:04:17.519 Oh nice, yeah, yeah. 66 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:20.839 So it's I think a lot of these uh, these 67 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:23.879 kind of boundaries are quite wiggily right. 68 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:26.480 This is definitely a I don't know. 69 00:04:26.519 --> 00:04:29.000 I've had whole episodes that we dedicated to the problem 70 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:34.120 non problem of human beings really needing to categorize things 71 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:35.600 and put labels on things. 72 00:04:37.839 --> 00:04:39.720 Very fitting considering the topic of my book. 73 00:04:41.879 --> 00:04:43.160 So this is so interesting. 74 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:45.959 So you've studied English, You're you're working in these two 75 00:04:46.000 --> 00:04:48.439 different departments that really have a lot of kind of 76 00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:53.639 culture and societal influence. You know, we're talking about historical 77 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:59.759 but also contemporary ways that individuals I guess, uh, not 78 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:04.839 even and just individuals, but whole systems exist within within 79 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:08.160 culture and how that shifts and changes. So that has 80 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:14.199 everything to do with race and gender and class and 81 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:20.360 kind of country of origin, and also capitalism and socialism 82 00:05:20.439 --> 00:05:23.720 and different kind of financial structures and different governmental structures. 83 00:05:23.720 --> 00:05:27.040 Like how do you even know where to focus your attention? 84 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:32.240 My interests have always been on the impact of colonialism 85 00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:37.279 on culture and on history, and it started with literature 86 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:41.199 because when I was in college and read postcolonial literature, 87 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:46.319 so literature from countries like India or Jamaica, for the 88 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:49.879 first time, I felt like the writers put language to 89 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:54.319 experiences that I had had that I did not want 90 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:57.720 to talk about being an immigrant to the US myself 91 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:02.680 as a young child and coming from a family who's 92 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:07.360 originally from Kishmir. And so I was really interested because 93 00:06:07.399 --> 00:06:11.279 I thought, Okay, there's a language for talking about why 94 00:06:12.199 --> 00:06:14.920 it feels like some countries have more power over each 95 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:17.759 other and how did I even get here? And so 96 00:06:17.800 --> 00:06:21.439 the point of entry for me was literature, but very 97 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:25.639 very quickly I started becoming interested in history. I started 98 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:30.920 becoming interested in digital culture and how we have these 99 00:06:31.240 --> 00:06:35.319 incredible tools for content creation available to us, whether it's 100 00:06:35.399 --> 00:06:40.160 to do it as individuals who want to tell our 101 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:46.399 own stories or as academics who want to tell stories 102 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:49.120 that haven't been told that come out of their research. 103 00:06:49.360 --> 00:06:52.399 And yet I always felt like, why aren't people actually 104 00:06:52.480 --> 00:06:55.519 using these tools to do that important thing? And that's 105 00:06:55.560 --> 00:06:58.040 why I got interested in the field of digital humanities. 106 00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:01.040 And it was at a moment in time in the 107 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:05.399 late twenty tens where rather it was in the early 108 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:08.560 twenty tens where the field was sort of starting to 109 00:07:08.600 --> 00:07:10.600 be a thing, and I thought, Okay, here's actually my 110 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:14.639 moment to say, we have these powerful tools, let's actually 111 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:17.199 use them to not just tell everybody who Shakespeare. 112 00:07:16.720 --> 00:07:22.519 Is right, such an such an interesting origin story. Do 113 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:24.240 you have family still in Kashmir? 114 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:24.560 Oh? 115 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:28.600 Yeah, of course, So when you do you consider you know, 116 00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:30.800 I've I've had a lot of folks on the show 117 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:34.920 when we talk about you know, intersectionality and identity and 118 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:40.600 the I guess, the struggles and the difficulties, but also 119 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:45.120 the beauty in you know, being bicultural or multi cultural. 120 00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:50.079 Do you consider yourself like a firmly bicultural individual at. 121 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:54.680 The very least. So I was born in Wales. 122 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:57.160 Oh, interesting, okay. 123 00:07:57.000 --> 00:08:00.959 And because my parents left Kashmir in the early seventies 124 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:03.839 and they went to the UK, and they lived in London, 125 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:06.639 outside of London, and eventually in Wales, where I was born. 126 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:10.480 And then they decided after about four or five years 127 00:08:10.519 --> 00:08:13.720 there that they wanted something different from their lives, and 128 00:08:14.240 --> 00:08:16.040 we had some family in the US, and so we 129 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:20.720 came here. And so I very much feel KASHMIRI I 130 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:26.800 very much feel British, and I also feel American, and 131 00:08:26.879 --> 00:08:30.560 so it's very it's very strange. But you know, you 132 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:34.759 can take the best parts of all of it and 133 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:36.360 try to ignore the rest. 134 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:40.320 Yeah, yeah, better advice, I have not heard. It's something 135 00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:42.639 we often talk about in so I work as a 136 00:08:42.679 --> 00:08:46.240 psychologist in a cancer center, and very often when we're 137 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:50.679 talking about I don't know, mortality and religion and politics 138 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:54.039 and all of these deeply existential things that people are 139 00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:57.960 grappling with today. That seems to be the consensus amongst 140 00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:01.080 the professionals and the patients, like is sort of take 141 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:05.279 what serves you, take what you find joy in, and 142 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:07.320 just leave the rest behind. 143 00:09:08.759 --> 00:09:11.919 It's really all we can do, especially when you consider 144 00:09:12.600 --> 00:09:15.720 so many of the pressures that we're dealing with right now, 145 00:09:15.840 --> 00:09:20.840 from particularly in the US, from a political system that 146 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:22.840 feels very. 147 00:09:24.960 --> 00:09:32.240 Much in turmoil, to put it lightly, agree wholeheartedly. So 148 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:35.440 it's so interesting this kind of very intersectional approach that 149 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:41.159 you take to understanding you know, our contemporary I guess 150 00:09:41.320 --> 00:09:48.679 placement or situation context milieu against the historical background, especially 151 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:54.279 with an eye towards colonialism, which of course encompasses all 152 00:09:54.320 --> 00:09:59.799 of those different features of misogyny and supremacy and racism 153 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:06.440 and just power and othering and and yet this story 154 00:10:06.600 --> 00:10:10.480 not and yet but and also this story specifically is 155 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:15.759 about like information, it's about data. So when we think 156 00:10:15.759 --> 00:10:19.000 about data, I think we often think about the Internet, 157 00:10:19.240 --> 00:10:23.039 or computers or modern tools that are used to store data, 158 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:25.679 or even like DNA. But I think a lot of 159 00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:30.519 us forget that data really is just what recorded information. 160 00:10:30.679 --> 00:10:35.039 It's it's a it's a meta concept of seeing or 161 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:38.600 organizing information and figuring out a way to transmit it. 162 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:41.440 It doesn't it could have been quite crude in the past. 163 00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:45.080 Right, absolutely. And the way I think of it is 164 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:50.600 that most things really just aren't that new, and even 165 00:10:50.639 --> 00:10:54.600 if they are, we got them somehow. And my interest 166 00:10:54.639 --> 00:11:00.600 has always been how far back can we trace idea 167 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:05.159 a concept that is being positioned as being new or 168 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:09.120 disruptive or unprecedented, which is my least favorite. 169 00:11:08.799 --> 00:11:13.279 Word, disruptive. Yeah, President good. 170 00:11:14.840 --> 00:11:16.879 So if we look as far back as we can 171 00:11:17.399 --> 00:11:21.159 based on what archaeologists have found so far, we get 172 00:11:21.240 --> 00:11:25.759 back forty three thousand years ago to the mountains at 173 00:11:25.759 --> 00:11:30.159 the border of Uswatini Mozambique in South Africa, the La 174 00:11:30.320 --> 00:11:37.200 Mambo Mountains, where archaeologists have found a baboon femur with 175 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:40.840 these notches on it, and they've determined that they're not 176 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:45.879 decorative and they're not accidental, and so someone was intentionally 177 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:50.000 carving these little markers and they were tracking something, and 178 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:53.279 it's so powerful just to think forty three thousand years 179 00:11:53.279 --> 00:11:57.279 ago someone thought, you know, I need to remember something 180 00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:00.360 i'm seeing or a phenomenon I'm observing, and there I'm 181 00:12:00.360 --> 00:12:03.679 going to carve these little notches into this bone to 182 00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:07.200 do that. And what else are we doing now, really 183 00:12:07.279 --> 00:12:12.759 other than carving notches and bones? Only now we have computers. 184 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:17.960 Absolutely, even this concept of counting before we may have 185 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:21.600 even developed a system for I've always been fascinated by 186 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:26.360 the idea that mathematics is not really a language. We 187 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:29.399 can talk about it like it's a language of organization, 188 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:33.559 but very very simple. Mathematics is in some ways baked 189 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:36.519 into the fabric of reality. And I think about that 190 00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:39.679 a lot when I think about our relationship to science, 191 00:12:39.720 --> 00:12:42.480 our relationship to the humanities, that a lot of what 192 00:12:42.559 --> 00:12:46.799 we do is just to try to use language or 193 00:12:46.919 --> 00:12:51.559 use tools to conceptualize things that we're just observing anyway. 194 00:12:52.600 --> 00:12:55.480 Absolutely, and that's where I start the story of data, 195 00:12:55.600 --> 00:13:00.960 which is that it's simply about creating a physical representation 196 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:06.759 or a material representation of something that we think is important. 197 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:10.039 And that, for me is actually why I get very 198 00:13:10.039 --> 00:13:12.879 frustrated when people try to claim that data is neutral 199 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:16.279 and objective, because even from that moment forty three thousand 200 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:19.840 years ago, there was an intention there. There is a decision, 201 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:23.799 a decision to count and to track, and that's still happening. 202 00:13:24.919 --> 00:13:27.279 I just don't I've never understood the argument. 203 00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:29.559 I see it all the time working in the sciences 204 00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:34.200 and kind of working within this subculture of scientific skepticism, 205 00:13:34.320 --> 00:13:40.399 where I notice a lot of, like you said, claims 206 00:13:40.440 --> 00:13:44.919 that either scientific approaches or data can somehow be neutral 207 00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:51.879 or unbiased or you know, kind of like perfectly representative of. 208 00:13:53.759 --> 00:13:55.399 Existence that is out there. 209 00:13:56.039 --> 00:13:59.639 And it's like, I feel like just saying it's done 210 00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:04.840 by people should be enough, Right, Like people have minds 211 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:07.679 and they make decisions about what they want to count 212 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:09.320 and what they don't want to count, and they make 213 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:12.200 decisions about why things are important and other things are 214 00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:17.320 less important. And you can't tease any bias, I mean, 215 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:20.840 you can't not see bias inside of that. It doesn't 216 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:23.519 necessarily mean it's bad or wrong, or there has to 217 00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:27.039 be a value judgment on it, although oftentimes there is one. 218 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:31.679 But you can't you can't be quote pure in your 219 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:35.480 approach if you're a person because by definition of being 220 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:38.159 a person, you have a perspective. 221 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:44.039 It's true, and I blame I blame the late seventeenth 222 00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:48.480 century scientists for this, and then in the eighteenth century 223 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:51.399 scientists as well, because that's when we first see that 224 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:54.360 word data showing up in the English language, and it 225 00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:58.919 starts in math, and it's used synonymously with the givens 226 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:04.320 of a proof. We're doing geometrical proofs and we're saying, given, 227 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:10.080 here's the fact, and that word eventually becomes used by 228 00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:14.799 people in royal societies for natural science as a way 229 00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:20.879 of talking about observed phenomena like a barometric measuring or 230 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:25.840 where a star is in the sky, that they can 231 00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:29.159 write down and it's been plucked out of its natural 232 00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:33.559 context and put down on a piece of paper, and 233 00:15:33.600 --> 00:15:36.840 that it can be compared with other measurements, or it 234 00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:42.919 could be analyzed or calculated and then generalized now with 235 00:15:43.039 --> 00:15:48.080 the natural world, assuming that everyone has a shared vocabulary 236 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:53.200 of how you're analyzing it, which isn't necessarily the case, 237 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:57.120 depending on one's culture and the cultural context in which 238 00:15:57.200 --> 00:16:01.000 one's doing science. Other than that case, you know, so 239 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:04.080 to the idea that you can just take something, write 240 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:07.480 it down, compare it with something else and then make 241 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:13.440 a generalized theory based on it is hiding a whole 242 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:17.919 lot of human hands, Yeah, playing a role in. 243 00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:21.720 It, absolutely, and who are those human hands? And I 244 00:16:21.759 --> 00:16:25.240 think that's one of those. I mean, it's such a 245 00:16:25.320 --> 00:16:27.279 it's such a fascinating thing to start to try to 246 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:30.960 really tease a part when you look when you try 247 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:35.519 to empathize with the oppressor, for example, you try to 248 00:16:35.559 --> 00:16:39.519 empathize with the colonist, or even just with the individuals 249 00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:43.480 who were in power. Due to all of the different 250 00:16:43.519 --> 00:16:51.039 factors and features, you know, the cultural historical milieu, there 251 00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:54.399 is a privilege you know, we I don't use that 252 00:16:54.399 --> 00:16:56.960 word lightly, but there is a privilege that comes along 253 00:16:57.000 --> 00:17:03.759 with experiencing the world that you experience and being told 254 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:08.920 from the time you're born that your view is somehow 255 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:13.480 more important, more dominant, more clean, more reflective of reality 256 00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:16.839 that you probably just never questioned it that there were 257 00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:19.240 probably a lot of these, you know, seventeenth and eighteenth 258 00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:23.880 century thinkers that you were talking about, especially scientists, maybe 259 00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:26.240 less so the earlier philosophers, but also no, I shouldn't 260 00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:29.680 say that. Definitely the philosophers as well, but that just 261 00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:33.440 kind of we're like, well, I was endowed with this smarty, 262 00:17:33.519 --> 00:17:38.400 smart brain. Therefore what I'm saying is probably the most real. 263 00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:42.480 I wouldn't know. They never had that problem. 264 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:45.240 Me neither. 265 00:17:45.640 --> 00:17:47.640 But you know, it's interesting to try to empu you know. 266 00:17:47.680 --> 00:17:51.519 I think when we talk about colonialism from the perspective 267 00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:55.640 of hindsight and knowledge, you know, what we know today, 268 00:17:55.799 --> 00:18:00.240 there's always conflict between the individuals who kind of see 269 00:17:59.880 --> 00:18:03.720 the havoc that has been reaked and the individuals. You know, 270 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:06.880 it's a very like right wing perspective that we see 271 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:09.160 often in the United States of like, well, I wasn't there, 272 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:11.279 it's not my fault, and we're past that, and you know, 273 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:14.079 it's all level playing field now, and you're like, Okay, 274 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:17.319 that is definitely not true. But I think when you 275 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:20.880 get beyond that conflict and you try to see the 276 00:18:20.920 --> 00:18:23.279 world as it was through the eyes of those who 277 00:18:23.319 --> 00:18:28.119 were in power and architects, I'm always curious how much 278 00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:31.519 they knew, you know, how much insight they had. 279 00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:33.039 I guess it's a good way to put it. 280 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:35.680 Into what they were actually doing, and how much they 281 00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:39.200 thought that this was just the natural way of things existing. 282 00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:42.119 I think they absolutely did, and we think about the 283 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:46.480 context of the eighteenth century, for example, in Europe, where 284 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:51.559 a lot of this theorization of data is happening. These 285 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:55.519 are the people who are in cultures that have gone 286 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:59.400 out around the world and conquered other people and have 287 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:02.000 felt that they absolutely had the right to it. So 288 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:05.240 I'm not sure why I would also simultaneously be expecting 289 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:08.960 them to have a critical eye on the production of science. Right. 290 00:19:10.559 --> 00:19:16.039 That's such a good point, and it's fascinating to think that, 291 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:18.440 And that's why I'm always like very eked out. 292 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:20.319 I don't know if you have the same experience, but. 293 00:19:20.359 --> 00:19:25.119 Among my peers and colleagues in circles that I respect 294 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:28.359 and run in because I am very, very pro science, 295 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:32.880 I always get incredibly eked out and kind of feel 296 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:37.599 a defensiveness rise when I hear rhetoric about let's say, 297 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:43.640 space exploration or about mineral rights or mining that feel 298 00:19:43.759 --> 00:19:49.759 so deeply colonial with just this unapologetic well, science for 299 00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:55.640 science sake, you know, exploring is our sort of natural proclivity, 300 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:58.440 and it's a good thing that we should make sure 301 00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:01.680 that we're always promoting. Not that I think it's wrong 302 00:20:01.799 --> 00:20:05.279 to ask open ended questions, but I'm so worried about 303 00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:11.440 that reckless perspective, as if there is no potential downside 304 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:15.920 to going places we've never been and just like fucking 305 00:20:15.920 --> 00:20:16.519 stuff up. 306 00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:19.440 One of the things we always talk about in my 307 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:26.559 house is is it morally okay to colonize Mars? Yes? Exactly. 308 00:20:27.039 --> 00:20:29.279 It's a huge argument on my other podcast. 309 00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:31.839 Yeah, because the thing is, one could argue there are 310 00:20:31.839 --> 00:20:34.160 no people there, but then what about the bacteria? 311 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:36.839 Yep, and that's what Yeah, that's always there. They're like, 312 00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:39.640 it's not the same as colonialism because there's no people there. 313 00:20:39.640 --> 00:20:41.960 And I'm like, yeah, but the colonists, at least the 314 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:45.720 early ones who were like going west because they thought 315 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:48.039 they might fall off the world if they didn't, they 316 00:20:48.039 --> 00:20:50.279 didn't expect there to be people there. 317 00:20:50.799 --> 00:20:53.640 Oh gosh, yeah, that's absolutely true, right. They thought it 318 00:20:53.680 --> 00:20:54.839 was just the empty land. 319 00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:57.799 Yeah, and then when people were in the way, that's 320 00:20:57.799 --> 00:20:59.839 how they saw them. They're like, look, gotta get rid 321 00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:03.279 of this complication that we've run into. And I'm not 322 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:04.839 saying if we go to Mars we're gonna find people. 323 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:06.519 We've been to Mars plenty of times with robots. We 324 00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:07.880 know there's no people, but. 325 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:09.359 It's that perspective. 326 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:12.440 That's that kind of very Western person, and I'm always 327 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:17.039 just like, can we just listen to indigenous wisdom sometimes. 328 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:19.359 Maybe once in a while. 329 00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:21.880 One of the things I was thinking about is that 330 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:26.680 we talk about the most cutting edge large language models, 331 00:21:26.759 --> 00:21:31.119 we call them frontier models. Oh wow, right, it's the 332 00:21:31.240 --> 00:21:33.960 language is so baked in right there. 333 00:21:35.279 --> 00:21:38.839 Gosh you must it's I remember early on in my 334 00:21:39.039 --> 00:21:42.240 sort of identity development and then later in my career 335 00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:46.359 development and journalism. In psychology, there's that inflection point where 336 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:50.319 you realize like, oh, patriarchy is everywhere, right, or like 337 00:21:50.319 --> 00:21:53.400 like white supremacy is everywhere. And you know, I had 338 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:55.519 a professor who would always say, yeah, it's the water 339 00:21:55.599 --> 00:21:58.359 we swim in. It's why you don't even see it, 340 00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:02.640 because it's all around us all the time. I can't 341 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:08.279 imagine that for you. Colonialism is the water use I mean, 342 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:13.359 you must see it kind of manifesting everywhere in language, 343 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:14.680 in even in math. 344 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:20.920 It ruins everything I really want to enjoy project call Mary. 345 00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:24.400 Oh no, I really did. No. Actually I thought it 346 00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:27.680 was great, but I definitely at that moment of oh no, 347 00:22:27.799 --> 00:22:29.720 here we go again. Yeah, I still. 348 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:31.119 A friend just told me I need to see it 349 00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:33.119 because I loved the Martian right, and I loved Andy Weir, 350 00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:34.039 and I loved the approach. 351 00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:36.599 But yeah, I was like, I have. 352 00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:39.559 A feeling I'm gonna have the same experience. 353 00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:42.279 It's really it's wonderful, though, don't please go see it, 354 00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:42.799 please sell. 355 00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:44.400 I think that's the thing too. 356 00:22:44.519 --> 00:22:47.000 We still have to live in the world we live in, right, 357 00:22:47.039 --> 00:22:49.480 And I think a lot of times there's a black 358 00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:51.960 and white way of thinking, and I can't imagine and 359 00:22:52.279 --> 00:22:54.160 tell me if this has been your experience as an 360 00:22:54.200 --> 00:22:59.160 academic who raises a lot of these uncomfortable conversations and truths. 361 00:22:59.799 --> 00:23:03.480 I imagine that you get trolls and haters and pushback 362 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:06.680 from people who are very black and white in their thinking, 363 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:09.000 who are kind of like, don't rain on our parade. 364 00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:11.839 Don't tell me all this bad stuff. Because I still 365 00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:14.079 want to be able to engage in the world that 366 00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:17.079 I engage in, and I still want you know, progress 367 00:23:17.119 --> 00:23:19.720 and capitalism and all the things that make my life easier. 368 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:24.839 But like it's complicated, it's ambivalent. Both these things can 369 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:26.680 be true at the same time, right. 370 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:31.400 Absolutely, I am the ruiner of fun in many cases, 371 00:23:31.720 --> 00:23:36.640 but at the same time, this is the world that 372 00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:38.720 we live in, and the world that we live in 373 00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:42.559 is complicated, and I think one of my frustrations, whether 374 00:23:43.240 --> 00:23:47.920 it's coming from people who want to say racism doesn't 375 00:23:47.960 --> 00:23:53.480 exist or people who want to say I have developed 376 00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:57.039 this leftist ideological purity test that you must adhere to 377 00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:04.000 if you want to be respected, neither of those are 378 00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:09.960 really able to address the complexity of lived reality. And 379 00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:12.039 I don't say this to say I am all here 380 00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:15.839 to be a relativist about it. I think absolutely if 381 00:24:15.880 --> 00:24:19.119 you think that racism is not a problem, then we 382 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:22.400 don't actually have very much to talk about it, right, 383 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:27.279 because that is going to then influence this entire conversation. 384 00:24:27.440 --> 00:24:30.039 And I cannot take you very seriously unless you want 385 00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:31.759 to have a conversation about why you might be wrong, in 386 00:24:31.759 --> 00:24:32.400 which case right. 387 00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:35.640 But yeah, it's almost an a priori assumption that if 388 00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:38.200 that is the you know, sacred cow you hold on to, 389 00:24:39.079 --> 00:24:44.319 every conversation beyond that is in some ways moot or 390 00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:46.920 at least it's deeply biased, and you're probably not going 391 00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:49.160 to get anywhere. It's like it's like talking to a 392 00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:51.839 flat earth or about physics or geometry, Like there's just 393 00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:53.440 a certain point where it's like, there's no point of 394 00:24:53.559 --> 00:24:54.559 having this conversation. 395 00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:58.640 It's absolutely true. You know. I just worry so much 396 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:03.640 though when I look at so just happening right now 397 00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:07.279 in the US, and I think about what's happening with 398 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:12.039 NIH or you know, what's happened where they're going after 399 00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:16.960 the Smithsonian now, and just thinking about how on the 400 00:25:17.000 --> 00:25:21.519 one hand, sometimes I want to really dig in and 401 00:25:21.559 --> 00:25:27.720