WEBVTT 1 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:14.919 Welcome to Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. Our guest in 2 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:17.879 this edition is Tom Young, a veteran of the Maryland 3 00:00:17.879 --> 00:00:21.000 and West Virginia Air National Guard. He served as a 4 00:00:21.000 --> 00:00:23.960 flight engineer aboard the C one, thirty Hercules and C 5 00:00:24.199 --> 00:00:28.760 five Galaxy transport planes. He's a veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan. 6 00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:32.560 He's also the author of nine military themed novels. The 7 00:00:32.640 --> 00:00:35.679 latest is The Map Maker, which centers on the French 8 00:00:35.719 --> 00:00:39.399 resistance in World War Two. Tom Young was born on 9 00:00:39.439 --> 00:00:42.880 his family's farm in North Carolina, and there was also 10 00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:45.840 a history of military service in his lineage. 11 00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:48.880 My grandfather served in World War II. He was a 12 00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:53.719 B seventeen mechanic with the legendary eighth Air Force. So 13 00:00:54.240 --> 00:00:56.920 I grew up hearing his stories from World War Two. 14 00:00:57.280 --> 00:01:01.280 And what interested you in joining the Air National Guard 15 00:01:01.320 --> 00:01:04.640 and why specifically the Guard as opposed to another branch 16 00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:05.159 of the service. 17 00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:09.200 Well, I'd always had an interest in flying, but I've 18 00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:15.000 had an unlikely dual career in aviation and in writing 19 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:18.000 in journalism. As I mentioned, my grandfather was a World 20 00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:20.760 War Two veteran, an eight Air Force veteran, and his 21 00:01:20.840 --> 00:01:25.599 stories were part of what sparked my interest in flying. 22 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:30.239 But I also had an interest in journalism and writing, 23 00:01:31.120 --> 00:01:34.680 and when I started college at the University of North 24 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:39.040 Carolina at Chapel Hill, I seriously considered going through Air 25 00:01:39.079 --> 00:01:42.920 Force ROTC and pursuing a full time active duty Air 26 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:45.480 Force career. But I also had this interest in journalism, 27 00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:49.120 and in my youthful ignorance, I thought I had to 28 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:52.000 choose one or the other and never look back. So 29 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:56.200 for a long time I pursued journalism pretty single mindedly. 30 00:01:56.239 --> 00:01:58.879 I worked with the broadcast division of the Associated Press 31 00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:03.400 in Washington. But during that time I also began taking 32 00:02:04.159 --> 00:02:07.439 private pilot flying lessons, and that was like throwing gas 33 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:10.599 on a fire. I found out I loved flying. I 34 00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:13.080 had a passion for it. I dare say I had 35 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:15.759 an attitude for it, and I wanted to experience more 36 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:19.400 of it, so I joined the Air National Guard. By 37 00:02:19.439 --> 00:02:22.080 the time I joined the Guard, I got a late start. 38 00:02:22.159 --> 00:02:25.199 I was above the age limit for pilot training, but 39 00:02:25.280 --> 00:02:28.400 there was no age limit for flight engineer training as 40 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:31.319 long as you enlisted by age thirty five. So I 41 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:34.280 became a flight engineer, initially on the sea one thirty 42 00:02:34.280 --> 00:02:37.639 Hercules just loved it. It really enjoyed flying as a 43 00:02:37.639 --> 00:02:40.439 flight engineer. And then when the one sixty seventh Airlift 44 00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:43.879 Wing converted to the C five Galaxy, I spent the 45 00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:46.680 last eight years of my career on the C five. 46 00:02:46.919 --> 00:02:48.800 Well, let's talk about the planes. First of all, the 47 00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:51.319 Sea one thirty Hercules. He said just a minute ago 48 00:02:51.360 --> 00:02:53.000 that that she loved it. What did you love about it? 49 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:53.199 Oh? 50 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:54.360 I just loved that aircraft. 51 00:02:54.400 --> 00:02:59.840 It's it can do anything. It always brought me home safely, 52 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:05.719 beautifully designed aircraft. They're still making C one thirties. Of course, 53 00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:08.120 the J models they make now are quite different from 54 00:03:08.159 --> 00:03:10.599 the A models that first began flying, I believe in 55 00:03:10.680 --> 00:03:14.520 nineteen fifty four. But it's such a tough, versatile aircraft. 56 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:18.080 It's why it's still around. It's why it's still being made. 57 00:03:18.199 --> 00:03:20.120 And then the C five, I know, it's a lot bigger, 58 00:03:20.199 --> 00:03:23.360 So talk about what that plane was like to deal with. 59 00:03:23.639 --> 00:03:26.240 The C five was very different. And when our unit 60 00:03:26.360 --> 00:03:29.240 first began to convert from the C one thirty to 61 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:32.560 the C five, silly me I thought, well, it's another 62 00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:36.000 Lockheed aircraft and it's still an airlift mission. How different 63 00:03:36.080 --> 00:03:39.000 could it be? Oh? I didn't know anything. It was 64 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:42.800 a very different aircraft with a different mission. We were 65 00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:46.120 going from tactical airlift to strategic airlift, and it was 66 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:52.639 just a different lifestyle. A tactical airlift involves essentially moving 67 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:56.680 cargo around within a theater of operation. Strategic airlift is 68 00:03:56.680 --> 00:03:59.719 taking very large loads of cargo all the way from 69 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:03.240 the US to the theater of operation and then flying 70 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:06.039 all the way back to the US. So it involves long, 71 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:10.479 long legs of flying very long days. Often your days 72 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:14.560 are overnight. So it was quite a culture change. 73 00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:16.720 And so if you're going all the way to Afghanistan 74 00:04:16.800 --> 00:04:18.560 or Iraq, how many times would you have to stop 75 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:22.560 and refuel to get from one place to the other. 76 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:25.800 It would depend on how the mission was planned. Most 77 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:29.279 often what we would do was we take off from 78 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:31.959 an East coast base wherever we picked up cargo, and 79 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:34.360 that could be Dover, that could be Charleston, it could 80 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:38.319 be Maguire, any number of bases on the East coast, 81 00:04:38.319 --> 00:04:42.000 and then you fly overnight, usually to stay overnight either 82 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:45.720 at Roda Naval Air Station in Spain or Ramstein Air 83 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:48.199 Base in Germany, and then after crew rest, you would 84 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:52.360 continue the leg either to bag Dad perhaps if you're 85 00:04:52.399 --> 00:04:55.199 going to Iraq, or to Bogram Air Base if you're 86 00:04:55.199 --> 00:05:00.160 going to Afghanistan. We had an aerial refueling capability, but 87 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:03.399 we didn't use that all the time because that's the 88 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:06.279 most expensive way to refuel. We would use it when 89 00:05:06.279 --> 00:05:09.959 we had to, but it's not something you always planned 90 00:05:09.959 --> 00:05:14.560 on doing. To give you a good example of a 91 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:19.040 time when it was necessary involves my last deployment. It 92 00:05:19.079 --> 00:05:23.759 was in two thousand and twelve and the one hundred 93 00:05:23.800 --> 00:05:27.839 and first Aviation Brigade was swapping out helicopters with the 94 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:31.199 eighty second. We were involved in something called a multi 95 00:05:31.240 --> 00:05:34.639 mode operation to swap those helicopters in and out, and 96 00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:40.360 it was intricately planned like clockwork. The inbound helicopters came 97 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:44.519 to Rota on ships, then they were loaded on our 98 00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:48.199 C fives with the rotors folded up. Of course, we 99 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:53.160 would fly them into Afghanistan, offload the inbound helicopters, onload 100 00:05:53.199 --> 00:05:58.360 the outbound helicopters. You couldn't take off during the day 101 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:02.519 with a load that heavy and have enough fuel to 102 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:05.279 do much of anything, so the mission was cut so 103 00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:06.839 that we would take off at night when it was 104 00:06:06.879 --> 00:06:10.600 cooler aircraft performance would be better, but even then you 105 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:13.519 couldn't put on enough fuel to fly from Bogram all 106 00:06:13.560 --> 00:06:16.240 the way back to Roda. So we would take off 107 00:06:16.240 --> 00:06:19.959 from Afghanistan, refuel in the air, and then fly back 108 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:20.399 to Rota. 109 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:22.959 Walk us through your duties as a flight engineer. 110 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:27.000 The flight engineer does not steer the aircraft, but he 111 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:33.800 or she monitors and operates all the systems such as hydraulics, electrics, pressurization, 112 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:37.160 all of that sort of thing. To give you a 113 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:41.120 mental picture if you've ever seen any photos or videos 114 00:06:41.240 --> 00:06:45.120 of some of the larger, older transport aircraft. Of course 115 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:47.360 you see the pilot and co pilots sitting in the 116 00:06:47.360 --> 00:06:50.360 front two seats, but then there's a third seat with 117 00:06:50.439 --> 00:06:54.199 someone sitting facing to the right at a great big 118 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:59.680 panel of switches and instruments. That's the flight engineer on 119 00:06:59.720 --> 00:07:02.120 some and that's on the C five and other aircraft 120 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:05.240 like the seven forty seven in the Sea one thirty, 121 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:08.920 and for that matter, in other aircraft like the P 122 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:13.120 three oryon the engineer is not sitting facing to the right, 123 00:07:13.199 --> 00:07:17.399 but he's sitting between and slightly after the pilots, and 124 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:21.920 his panel is overhit. But generally speaking, flight engineer positions 125 00:07:21.959 --> 00:07:25.879 have this position where you're facing to the right, so 126 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:28.920 you're monitoring all the systems, but you're also the crew mathematician. 127 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:34.319 It's the engineer's responsibility to calculate things like takeoff speed, 128 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:40.199 clomb rate, fuel consumption, take off distance, fuel burn, landing distance, 129 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:42.439 anything to do with aircraft performance. 130 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:43.759 Did you ever come under fire? 131 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:47.519 Yes, oh, yes, a lot of Sea one thirty crews 132 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:52.560 came under fire. Nothing ever hit an aircraft that I 133 00:07:52.800 --> 00:07:56.680 was in. In fact, to my knowledge, I don't think 134 00:07:56.759 --> 00:08:00.279 anything ever hit any of the one sixty sevenths aircraft, 135 00:08:00.279 --> 00:08:03.000 but there were one sixty seven, or rather there were 136 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:06.600 UH Sea one thirties that were struck by fire in 137 00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:10.199 UH I know in Iraq and probably in Afghanistan as well. 138 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:14.360 I credit luck for part of that, but also I 139 00:08:14.879 --> 00:08:19.839 credit the one sixty seventh high standards of training and readiness. 140 00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:21.920 At that time. 141 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:25.800 We had an excellent wing commander, a Colonel Jesse Thomas, 142 00:08:26.319 --> 00:08:28.879 and he made sure that by the time we got there, 143 00:08:29.720 --> 00:08:33.759 we were very familiar with things like flying on night 144 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:41.159 vision goggles, running those combat entry entrants and and exit checklists. 145 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:45.600 He made sure his unit was ready before we got there. 146 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:48.320 What's that like the first time people are shooting at you. 147 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:51.159 It happened so fast you don't have time to get scared. 148 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:55.879 And of course I realized coming under fire is very 149 00:08:55.879 --> 00:08:59.879 different depending on where you are and what your situation is. 150 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:04.279 It's very different. I'm sure probably a lot worse for 151 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:08.720 troops on the ground. But if you're in a C 152 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:14.440 one thirty flying over Iraq at night, it just happens 153 00:09:14.440 --> 00:09:19.080 so quickly. You hear the missile warning system go off, 154 00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:24.159 the defensive flares launch, and it's over in an instant. 155 00:09:25.240 --> 00:09:27.639 And as I say, you don't have time to get scared. 156 00:09:27.639 --> 00:09:29.879 If you get scared, it's later when you look back 157 00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:31.559 on it and you think what could have happened. 158 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:35.559 Thinking about those particular planes, they're not known for their elusiveness, 159 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:37.600 So is there any sort of evasive action taken? 160 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:40.759 There are maneuvers you can take, and you would be 161 00:09:40.799 --> 00:09:43.200 surprised how effective it can be in a C one thirty. 162 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:48.399 It's been a while, so I don't remember exactly what's 163 00:09:48.440 --> 00:09:51.120 classified and what's not, so I won't get into details. 164 00:09:51.759 --> 00:09:55.519 But see one thirty is with their defensive systems and 165 00:09:55.559 --> 00:10:01.159 with their defensive tactics are more then you might think. 166 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:04.159 Is there any particular incident that stays with you as 167 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:07.480 perhaps being the most intense enemy fire or the. 168 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:10.600 Most intense happened in May of three. We had just 169 00:10:10.720 --> 00:10:15.000 taken off from Baghdad, and this was about eleven o'clock 170 00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:19.120 at night, and I suppose some of the insurgents decided 171 00:10:19.559 --> 00:10:22.000 that night they wanted to take out an airlifter, and 172 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:25.799 they were waiting some distance off the end of the 173 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:30.080 runway for the next aircraft to come along. And as 174 00:10:30.120 --> 00:10:33.120 we're climbing out, and this is still at fairly low altitude, 175 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:35.600 all of a sudden, in much less time than it 176 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:39.919 takes to tell it, we hear the warning system tones 177 00:10:40.080 --> 00:10:46.080 go off, the defensive flares launched automatically. The flares are 178 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:48.440 hotter than the heat signature of your engines, and they 179 00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:51.399 help defeat a heat seeking missile. So you hear these 180 00:10:52.120 --> 00:10:56.159 gosh off warning tones, the flares punch, and the flight 181 00:10:56.159 --> 00:10:58.960 deck lights up like the sun because of those flares. 182 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:02.919 And then instantly, because we have had a very alert, 183 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:07.159 very good aircraft commander, he racks the aircraft into a 184 00:11:07.240 --> 00:11:11.960 hard turn, and people were making the call outs they're 185 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:14.000 supposed to make to do the things you're supposed to 186 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:18.799 do in that situation, and just like that, it's over. 187 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:24.600 And then the flight day gets really quiet, and we 188 00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:27.519 climb up to altitude and we flew the rest of 189 00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:30.960 the way back to Massira Island. And since then we've 190 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:34.000 often discussed about how quiet the rest of that flight was. 191 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:37.639 There wasn't much more conversation except for what was required 192 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:40.720 to do checklists, and I think it was because everybody 193 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:43.320 was reflecting on what could have happened. 194 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:46.200 That's Tom Young, who served in Iraq and Afghanistan as 195 00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:49.360 a flight engineer with the Air National Guard. When we 196 00:11:49.440 --> 00:11:52.039 come back, we'll focus on the French resistance and Young's 197 00:11:52.080 --> 00:11:55.559 new book, The Map Maker. I'm Greg Corumbus and this 198 00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:59.159 is Veterans Chronicles Sixty Seconds of Service. 199 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:02.799 This sixty Seconds of Services presented by T Mobile, recognizing 200 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:06.200 these steadfast, edication and sacrifices made by service members and 201 00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:08.960 their families. T mobile is committed to supporting active duty 202 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:12.799 veterans and military spouses. Visit t mobile dot com slash 203 00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:13.919 military to learn more. 204 00:12:14.039 --> 00:12:17.399 Disabled Vet Kyle Cornwell saw a shivering Vietnam VET on 205 00:12:17.440 --> 00:12:20.519 a Sacramento sidewalk and gave him his coat and meal. 206 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:25.399 That single act grew into a grassroots movement. Kyle now 207 00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:29.240 leads weekly outreach walks, bringing essentials like tense, water and 208 00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:33.720 emotional support to dozens of unhoused veterans. He's partnered with 209 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:36.759 local shelters and pushes for a systemic change in veteran 210 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:41.080 housing policy. Kyle, who once felt invisible, has become a 211 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:44.240 lifeline for so many. Today's sixty seconds of Service is 212 00:12:44.279 --> 00:12:47.039 brought to you by Prevagen. Prevagen is the number one 213 00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:50.360 pharmacist recommended memory support brand. You can find Prevagen and 214 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:54.480 the Vitamin Aisle in stores everywhere. For more great veteran stories, 215 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:57.399 just go to National Defense Network dot com. 216 00:12:57.399 --> 00:13:00.919 This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbas. Our guest in 217 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:03.960 this edition is Tom Young, a veteran of the Maryland 218 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:07.360 and West Virginia Air National Guard. He served in Iraq 219 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:10.960 and Afghanistan as a flight engineer aboard C one thirty 220 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:15.320 Hercules and C five Galaxy transport planes. He's also the 221 00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:18.639 author of nine novels. The latest is The Map Maker, 222 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:21.840 about the French resistance in World War Two. One of 223 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:24.679 the fascinating aspects of the novel is that Young's main 224 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:28.399 characters are fictional, but he has them carrying out missions 225 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:31.559 that really happened. So I asked him how he weaved 226 00:13:31.679 --> 00:13:33.799 fact and fiction for this novel. 227 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:37.759 That required some research, but it was fascinating research and 228 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:40.440 I had a lot of fun looking into it. And 229 00:13:40.480 --> 00:13:43.879 the reason I picked that subject matter is now we're 230 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:46.720 in the eightieth year since the end of World War Two, 231 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:49.440 so World War Two is pretty well tilled ground for 232 00:13:49.519 --> 00:13:51.799 fiction by now. So I try to look for some 233 00:13:51.879 --> 00:13:55.399 of the lesser known corners of World War II history, 234 00:13:56.240 --> 00:13:59.600 and for me, one of those corners was the French 235 00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:03.559 resistance and the air operations that supported it. So when 236 00:14:03.559 --> 00:14:07.279 I began looking into that, I found that fascinating and 237 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:09.759 thought that would be a good corner to explore. 238 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:13.879 So the way I set up. 239 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:17.399 The initial conflict in The Map Makers, I have two 240 00:14:17.440 --> 00:14:21.279 main characters. One is a French American woman named Charlotte Denoux. 241 00:14:21.399 --> 00:14:24.360 She's a resistance agent and she used to be an 242 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:28.679 art student, so she has turned her talents to drawing 243 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:32.879 maps and charts and diagrams on German positions and capabilities 244 00:14:32.919 --> 00:14:36.240 to give targeting information to the resistance and to the Allies. 245 00:14:37.240 --> 00:14:39.519 The problem is she's a little too good, and the 246 00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:42.679 Gestapo knows about her. So she's on the run as 247 00:14:42.759 --> 00:14:45.720 the novel opens, on the run across occupied France, trying 248 00:14:45.720 --> 00:14:49.000 to stay a step ahead of the Gestapo and keep 249 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:53.039 them from dragging her into an interrogation chamber. And what 250 00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:55.200 she really needs is a ride. She needs a flight 251 00:14:55.240 --> 00:14:57.759 out because she needs to stay away from the Gestapo 252 00:14:57.879 --> 00:15:01.279 and she still has important information to get to the Allies. 253 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:06.120 My other main character is a French pilot, Phelipe Gerard. 254 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:09.519 He is entirely fictional, but the things he does are 255 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:13.120 historically based. He was a pilot for the French Air Force. 256 00:15:13.639 --> 00:15:16.080 After the fall of France, he got out of France 257 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.159 and made his way to Britain where he joined the 258 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:20.320 British Royal Air Force, and there were a lot of 259 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:25.200 pilots from Nazi occupied countries who did that. So as 260 00:15:25.240 --> 00:15:28.480 the novel opens, he's flying for the RAF in what 261 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:32.000 the RAF called a Special Duties Squadron nowadays we'd call 262 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:37.240 it Special Operations and his unit flies light single engine aircraft, 263 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:41.960 the Westland Lysander, in and out of occupied France by night, 264 00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:46.159 navigating by moonlight to land in clandestine airfields like a 265 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:50.360 farmer's pasture and deliver supplies and ammunition to the resistance, 266 00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:52.919 or to pick up agents sometimes to bring them to 267 00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:55.679 Britain for consultations, and then to fly them back in 268 00:15:56.039 --> 00:15:57.759 and go right back into the fray. It's a hell 269 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:00.200 of a way to commute to and from work. They 270 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:03.799 actually did this, and Philippe gets task with the job 271 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:07.679 of finding Charlotte and flying her out. But that's harder 272 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:09.919 than it sounds, because she's on the run and she 273 00:16:10.120 --> 00:16:14.679 can't stay in one place for any length of time. Plus, 274 00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:18.360 even if Philippe does get information on her whereabouts, does 275 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:21.159 he trust that information or is it a Nazi trap? 276 00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:24.720 So that's the opening setup for the map maker. 277 00:16:24.840 --> 00:16:27.200 Well exactly, because I believe the very first sequence in 278 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:30.159 the book is that he lands in a place where 279 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:32.799 it basically was a trap. It'll be too many spoilers here, 280 00:16:33.080 --> 00:16:36.240 but in terms of how this was arranged, because obviously, 281 00:16:36.320 --> 00:16:39.600 when people think of the formal French military, obviously the 282 00:16:39.679 --> 00:16:42.600 Nazis swept through France in about a month and a half. 283 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:47.080 The miracle at Dunkirk saves a lot of lives. Obviously, 284 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:51.039 how did they connect and organize with these figures still 285 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:54.600 in France to set up these networks focusing on different 286 00:16:54.600 --> 00:16:58.559 things and having these codes arranged where you could identify, yes, 287 00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:00.799 this is the right person I'm supposed to meet. It 288 00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:04.039 seems very intricate and elaborate, but it seems like it 289 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:06.200 had to have been done on the fly pretty much. 290 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:09.319 It was very intricate, and it was done on the fly. 291 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:12.880 And that's part of what makes the French resistance so amazing, 292 00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:16.559 because you know, after the French military has been taken down, 293 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:21.160 who's going to serve in the resistance but volunteers. Whoever volunteers. 294 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:23.400 One of the books I read for research made a 295 00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:27.720 fascinating point. It said, for the most part, the French 296 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:32.640 resistance was amateurs going up against the best trained police 297 00:17:32.640 --> 00:17:34.680 force in the world, the Gestapo. 298 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:36.960 But they did have. 299 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:40.359 Some help in getting organized, initially from the British, from 300 00:17:40.400 --> 00:17:44.839 the British Special Operations Executive, and they would parachute in 301 00:17:44.839 --> 00:17:50.839 an agent to help the resistance organize into various cells. 302 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:57.240 They call them circuits, and there was sometimes not a 303 00:17:57.240 --> 00:18:00.000 lot of communication between the various circuits, and that was 304 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:04.880 by design, so that if one circuit got taken down, 305 00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:07.519 or if a number of people from one circuit got arrested, 306 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:09.359 there would be a limit to how much information you 307 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:12.200 could get out of them. And then later when the 308 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:15.960 US was involved in the war, the forerunner of the CIA, 309 00:18:16.119 --> 00:18:19.559 the OSS, the Office of Strategic Services, also got involved 310 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:22.960 in coordinating with the resistance. But that was one of 311 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:28.039 the biggest challenges, was to how to coordinate and organize 312 00:18:28.039 --> 00:18:30.079 these cells, how to herd these cats, but at the 313 00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:32.920 same time not have them too linked, because you wanted 314 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:36.079 plausible deniability and you know, that sort of thing for 315 00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:38.599 security purposes. So it was really quite a challenge. And 316 00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:42.160 the trade craft that they used, you know, the coded 317 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:45.480 transmissions and things on the radio, was just absolutely fascinating. 318 00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:47.920 Tom Young is a veteran of the Maryland and West 319 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:51.960 Virginia Air National Guard, serving in both Iraq and Afghanistan 320 00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:55.200 as a flight engineer aboard C one thirty Hercules and 321 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:59.039 C five Galaxy transport planes. His latest novel is The 322 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:03.119 Map Maker, focusing on the French resistance during World War Two. 323 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:06.160 When We Come Back. Young's expertise and love of flying 324 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:09.119 comes through in the novel. We'll also discuss just how 325 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:11.920 important the French resistance was to the overall success of 326 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:15.240 the Allies and just how vicious the Nazi, Gestapo and 327 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:20.079 SS forces were towards French civilians. I'm Greg Corumbus and 328 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:26.279 this is Veterans Chronicles. This is Veterans Chronicles. I'm Greg Corumbus. 329 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:28.599 Our guest is Tom Young, and we're talking about his 330 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:31.519 new novel, The Map Maker, and we pick up the 331 00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:36.720 conversation with Young explaining how he incorporated aviation extensively into 332 00:19:36.759 --> 00:19:37.279 the novel. 333 00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:42.880 Well, history dictated that the Special Duty Squadron that I 334 00:19:42.920 --> 00:19:47.079 assigned Felipe to in the novel really existed, and they 335 00:19:47.119 --> 00:19:50.599 flew the Westland Lysander, so that was an easy choice. 336 00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:55.720 The light aircraft he flies from France when he steals it, 337 00:19:56.599 --> 00:19:59.000 that was a commonly used light aircraft in France. And 338 00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:04.039 then when his French Air Force unit is reconstituted in 339 00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:08.559 North Africa, that real world unit was assigned the photo 340 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:12.200 reconvariant of the P thirty eight Lightning. So all of 341 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:15.039 that was dictated by real world history and as far 342 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:19.880 as researching how those aircraft were flown. Oddly enough, I 343 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:24.640 found YouTube to be a very valuable resource because someone, 344 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:28.480 probably several someones, has done US authors and historians a 345 00:20:28.480 --> 00:20:31.799 great favor by uploading the YouTube a lot of World 346 00:20:31.880 --> 00:20:35.519 War Two era training films, and those films are excellent. 347 00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:38.000 Back then, the War Department enlisted a lot of a 348 00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:41.920 list Hollywood talent to make those films, and they're fantastic. 349 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:44.799 They're as good as anything any training film I ever 350 00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:47.200 saw in the military, except what I saw was in color, 351 00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:50.079 and they were in black and white. And you can 352 00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:52.680 find on YouTube a training film from World War II 353 00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:56.000 on anything. You can imagine how to feel strip an 354 00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:59.759 M one rifle, how they packed parachutes back then, how 355 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:02.960 they use those great big backpack radios, and how they 356 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:06.440 operated most of the aircraft of that era. You can 357 00:21:06.440 --> 00:21:09.319 find a training film that walks you through the checklist 358 00:21:09.480 --> 00:21:13.960 from pre flight to shutdown, and if you're an aviation 359 00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:16.400 geek like I am, you can get lost in that stuff. 360 00:21:16.400 --> 00:21:20.480 And then one of the challenges becomes not overloading the 361 00:21:20.519 --> 00:21:22.160 reader with too much of that detail. 362 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:25.759 It's also interesting the time frame in the war that 363 00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:28.920 you chose here, because the fall of France to the Nazis, 364 00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:32.079 of course, came in nineteen forty, and so Philip has 365 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:34.880 been doing what he's been doing pretty much ever since then. 366 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:36.599 We pick it up in the summer in nineteen forty 367 00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:41.720 three in your novel, and it's feeling pretty bleak, pretty hopeless. 368 00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:45.279 He's not even sure why he's still doing this. There's 369 00:21:45.319 --> 00:21:48.240 a backstory to something he feels guilt over. How does 370 00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:51.559 that kind of help us understand what the mood the 371 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:54.359 outlook was at that point in the war, kind of 372 00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:56.960 between forty and forty three, where not a lot was 373 00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:57.839 going really well. 374 00:21:57.960 --> 00:22:01.720 In nineteen forty three, things really did look bleak for 375 00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:07.440 the French resistance. The Germans had pretty much rolled up 376 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:13.119 one of the most effective circuits or cells. One of 377 00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:17.599 the high ranking French resistance agents, Jean Moulon, who had 378 00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:20.359 been sent into France to try to organize these various 379 00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:25.279 circuits to the extent possible, and he had been captured. 380 00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:29.039 So things looked very bad for the resistance at that time, 381 00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:34.240 but they pressed on despite the odds and eventually prevailed. 382 00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:37.960 There's also kind of an interesting amalgamation of groups that 383 00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:40.720 are part of the resistance, but they're very different from 384 00:22:40.759 --> 00:22:43.440 one another. So for example, when Charlotte's on the run, 385 00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:46.960 she runs into one group that's not one that she's 386 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:49.599 real familiar with. Then they end up with a bunch 387 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:51.279 of Spaniards for a while, and then they've got a 388 00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:54.359 trust communists to get them to different points. So talk 389 00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:56.039 about how the resistance was kind of this. 390 00:22:56.119 --> 00:22:59.920 Hodgepides, Yes, when I referred to herding the cats early, 391 00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:03.400 I was not being entirely facetious. There were really very 392 00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:09.279 widely disparate groups participating in the resistance, and sometimes they 393 00:23:09.279 --> 00:23:12.559 were across purposes. And part of the challenge that Jean 394 00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:15.279 Mulan had before he was captured, and part of the 395 00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:19.279 challenge that for example, Charles de Gaulle had trying to 396 00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:22.279 influence events from where he was in Britain at the time, 397 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:27.160 was organizing these groups and it was quite a challenge. 398 00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:29.039 And one of the things I tried to do in 399 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:33.839 The Map Maker was to give the reader something of 400 00:23:33.880 --> 00:23:36.720 a tour of some of the things the French resistance 401 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:40.079