Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
Speaker 1: Epstein Chronicles. In this episode, we're diving right back in
Speaker 1: to the Kathy Rumler interview with Congress mister Lynch. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I just want to understand are we going to see
Speaker 1: the exhibits? Miss Crockett. I was just going to ask,
Speaker 1: do you mind speaking up just a little bit? Miss Rumler?
Speaker 1: Oh sure, Crockett. You kind of faded off towards the
Speaker 1: end of your last statement. Rumler, okay, no problem, absolutely redacted.
Speaker 1: We'll go back on the record, Miss Rumler. Okay. So,
Speaker 1: as I was saying, I was certainly aware that he
Speaker 1: had pled guilty to prostitution related offenses that involved sexualized massages.
Speaker 1: I knew that he was open to me with me
Speaker 1: about it, or so I believed about the nature of
Speaker 1: his conduct, as I discussed at some length this morning.
Speaker 1: So what I was making here was an offhanded joke. Certainly,
Speaker 1: sitting here in twenty twenty six is in extraordinarily poor taste.
Speaker 1: But it was a joke about his prior criminal history.
Speaker 1: Redacted question. So when you wrote best Massage Ever, but
Speaker 1: not your kind of massage, you were referring to how
Speaker 1: he used massage to entice his victims. Answer, No, that's
Speaker 1: not what I'm saying at all. Again, as we discussed
Speaker 1: at length this morning, I understood that the conduct that
Speaker 1: mister Abstein had engaged in, as stated by miss Backer
Speaker 1: in the letter to the Deputy Attorney General, was that
Speaker 1: mister Abstein was, in essence a customer or a john. Okay,
Speaker 1: taking a step back for a second. I had been
Speaker 1: a prosecutor in the DCUs Attorney's office, and as a
Speaker 1: young you know, prosecutor in that office. She gets cut off.
Speaker 1: Question before we take a step back, let's take a
Speaker 1: step forward. Answer, okay, question, what kind of massage were
Speaker 1: you referring to? Answer for me question when you wrote
Speaker 1: best Massage Ever, but not your kind of massage to
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein? What was his kind of massage? Answer? Let
Speaker 1: me explain the context of this email. Epstein had, I believed,
Speaker 1: as a holiday Christmas gift, had given me a half
Speaker 1: day spa at the Peninsula Hotel. Okay, and that's what
Speaker 1: he's referring when he's saying we all set for a
Speaker 1: day of joy. He's saying, are you going to have
Speaker 1: a nice day at the Peninsula Spa? Where I was
Speaker 1: able to, you know, pick up again, it was a gift.
Speaker 1: I was able to pick up or pick whatever I
Speaker 1: wanted to do at the Peninsula Spa, which is a
Speaker 1: lovely place in New York. Question that's right. Your emails,
Speaker 1: the emails between mister Epstein and his assistant Leslie Groff,
Speaker 1: they call it Kathy Rumler's Pampered Weekend. And then mims
Speaker 1: Groff and you email, and you told miss Groff quote
Speaker 1: Jeffrey's so thoughtful as always. So yes, answer okay, so yes.
Speaker 1: And so he then asked me basically, you know, are
Speaker 1: you all set to go have a you know, nice
Speaker 1: day at the spa? Essentially, question a day of joy?
Speaker 1: Answer a day. And so then after I go to
Speaker 1: the spa. So it's the following day. I'd gone on
Speaker 1: a Saturday. I believe I went on a Saturday morning.
Speaker 1: And so I wrote back and said, you know, best
Speaker 1: massage ever, meaning I had a very nice massage at
Speaker 1: the spa. And I said, but not your kind of massage. Yes,
Speaker 1: that was a joke to him about the fact that
Speaker 1: he had engaged in the crime of prostitution. Where the
Speaker 1: act again, as I understood it, was that he paid
Speaker 1: women to give them sexualized massages. Now what I wanted
Speaker 1: to say, taking a step back, So again, as I stated,
Speaker 1: I wish I had never met Jeffrey Epstein. I wish
Speaker 1: I'd never dealt with the guy. It was a mistake
Speaker 1: to deal with him. I wish I certainly wish I'd
Speaker 1: never emailed with him. And sitting here, you know, ten
Speaker 1: years later, in light of everything we know, now this
Speaker 1: is a joke where I'm using humor to basically again
Speaker 1: sort of call him out on the fact that he
Speaker 1: had this conviction. And it's in poor taste. But when
Speaker 1: I was, when I was a prosecutor, and I was
Speaker 1: doing prostitution cases at this in this period of time,
Speaker 1: so this when I was doing prostitution cases, it would
Speaker 1: have been, you know, two thousand and one, two thousand
Speaker 1: and two. In the District of Columbia, the crime of
Speaker 1: prostitution is the agreement between an individual who is seeking
Speaker 1: sex and someone who is willing to provide sex for money.
Speaker 1: The crime is the agreement, okay, And we were instructed
Speaker 1: it was, you know, the policy of the office at
Speaker 1: the time that because the crime was the agreement that
Speaker 1: both the John and I'm using the law enforcement terms.
Speaker 1: The john and the prostitute were both prosecuted. They were
Speaker 1: prosecuted equally. Question can a minor be a prostitute? Answer?
Speaker 1: Absolutely not. Question you told Jeffrey Epstein that answer absolutely not.
Speaker 1: Question at least on one occasion. Is that right? Answer?
Speaker 1: Under the law a minor United States law, a miner
Speaker 1: cannot consent to prostitution. Yes, I agree with you entirely.
Speaker 1: Question you mentioned this letter from a lawyer Thacker that
Speaker 1: you refer to a lot. Answer yes. Question, Well, we'll
Speaker 1: talk about that later. But the letter references massages on
Speaker 1: I don't know eighteen times. It recounts allegation after allegation
Speaker 1: of how mister Epstein used massage to entice victims. Answer yes, question,
Speaker 1: so that's more than just Jeffrey Epstein paying for sex
Speaker 1: one time in two thousand and seven. Right answer, Oh,
Speaker 1: I have never suggested that I believed he had to
Speaker 1: pay for sex for one time. Question So then, were
Speaker 1: you so what were you referring to? Were you referring
Speaker 1: to the full range of his alleged conduct that you
Speaker 1: were aware of? Answer? This was an offhand remark. I
Speaker 1: certainly wasn't referring to the full range of conduct. You
Speaker 1: know in a one sentence, offhand joke that, as I've
Speaker 1: said to you, sitting here today was in very poor taste.
Speaker 1: Question did you think one of the issues here he
Speaker 1: bought you this massage? This was not the first or
Speaker 1: the last massage that he had bought you, nor was
Speaker 1: it the only time you discussed massages with them. So
Speaker 1: given what you knew, then why did you accept any
Speaker 1: massages from Jeffrey Epstein? Answer? Okay, wait, wait wait wait
Speaker 1: wait wait wait. Question she gets cut off. And why
Speaker 1: were you joking about it and what you did with him? Answer?
Speaker 1: He gave me a gift. Okay, so he gave me
Speaker 1: a gift, a half day at the spa at the
Speaker 1: Peninsula Hotel in New York City. I think I also
Speaker 1: got a facial that day. I don't remember. But in
Speaker 1: any event, when I go to the spa, which I
Speaker 1: have gone to many many times over the course of
Speaker 1: my life, and I've gone to spa resorts, a lot
Speaker 1: of women go to spas, and in ninety nine percent
Speaker 1: of those cases, I've paid for my own massage as
Speaker 1: a gift. He gave me a half day at Peninsula Spa,
Speaker 1: and I got a massage, That is what this is.
Speaker 1: Question you knew he was a registered sex offender at
Speaker 1: the time? Right answer yes. Question so why were you
Speaker 1: accepting gifts of massages from a registered sex offender whose
Speaker 1: offenses including getting massages? Answer? I can't even follow the
Speaker 1: logic of your question, mister addacted? What part don't you understand? Ms? Rumler,
Speaker 1: I don't understand. I don't understand the question, mister adacted?
Speaker 1: Do you want me to repeat the question differently? Question?
Speaker 1: Did you ever think of his underage victims at any point? Think, Hey,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to accept a massage from Jeffrey Epstein,
Speaker 1: or I'm not going to joke about Jeffrey Epstein's history
Speaker 1: of massage and I'm not even going to talk about
Speaker 1: massages with Jeffrey Epstein. Answer As I said, I didn't
Speaker 1: accept a massage from Jeffrey Epstein. He bought me as
Speaker 1: a gift a day at a very well established hotel
Speaker 1: SPA in New York City, and I accepted it because,
Speaker 1: as I stated, he was a primary advisor to a
Speaker 1: client of mine. There was no reason not to accept it.
Speaker 1: It was a nice gesture and I accepted it. Question,
Speaker 1: let's move on answer, it's not more complicated than that question.
Speaker 1: So the twenty nineteen indictment at the arraignment, the government
Speaker 1: said that mister Epstein engaged in a year's long scheme
Speaker 1: to sexually abuse underage girls, paying minor girls to themselves
Speaker 1: be abused, and also paying certain victims to recruit other
Speaker 1: girls to be subject to the defendant sexual abuse rumler
Speaker 1: minority Exhibit B. Let's introduce his minority Exhibit B an
Speaker 1: email exchange between you and mister Ebstein from September nineteenth,
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen. In it, mister Epstein wrote, quote, girls careful,
Speaker 1: I will renew an old habit. Answer. Yes, I see
Speaker 1: that question. We've already established that you were aware of
Speaker 1: the allegations against mister Ebstein because you had read the
Speaker 1: Thacker Letter. At this point. Did you consider whether mister
Speaker 1: Ebstein was referring to his past crimes involving young girls
Speaker 1: when he said, girls careful, I will renew an old
Speaker 1: habit answer? Okay, First of all, I don't know whether
Speaker 1: I had read the Thacker letter in September of twenty fourteen.
Speaker 1: I had, you know, I'd only met with mister Ebstein
Speaker 1: I think twice at that point so just to put
Speaker 1: that into characterization in proper context. But I remember this
Speaker 1: email very notwithstanding it was twelve years ago. I remember
Speaker 1: this email very specifically, and during either the first or
Speaker 1: second meeting that I had with Epstein. In the course
Speaker 1: of the conversation, and it may have actually been in
Speaker 1: reference to reference to me, he referred to women as girls, okay,
Speaker 1: and I said to him, don't refer to women as girls. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: I'm now fifty five years old, and I've been, you know,
Speaker 1: a practicing lawyer for a long time, and I've been
Speaker 1: referred to as a girl by many men in many context.
Speaker 1: And I said, don't do that. And so I write,
Speaker 1: most girls do not have to worry about that crab.
Speaker 1: I'm basically in my email referring back to that conversation. Okay, like, hey, knucklehead,
Speaker 1: I'm referring to myself here, most girls don't have to
Speaker 1: worry about this crab. Then he responds, girls, question, Mark careful,
Speaker 1: I will renew an old habit question. So it was
Speaker 1: something of an inside joke between the two of you.
Speaker 1: Answer about language question, got it question? All right, Let's
Speaker 1: move on to minority exhibit CEE. This bates number e
Speaker 1: f TA zero two five one zero eight zero three.
Speaker 1: This is a March fourth, twenty fifteen email exchange, and
Speaker 1: the portion I'd like to talk to you about's on
Speaker 1: page one. Miss mister Fishman, can you give us a minute,
Speaker 1: take us while to get down to the table redacted?
Speaker 1: Do you see what you wrote to him? Darling? I
Speaker 1: am not one of your young things, Miss Rumler, yes,
Speaker 1: I do. Question. What were you referring to, mister Fishman.
Speaker 1: Do you mind if she looks at the whole document first? Redacted? Absolutely, Rumler.
Speaker 1: So the context here is that I was doing a
Speaker 1: lot of international travel in the course of my law practice,
Speaker 1: and I can tell you I can tell you from
Speaker 1: the context here that I had just landed in China,
Speaker 1: because I say, I had a loner BlackBerry that makes
Speaker 1: out going calls. So, as any member of the room
Speaker 1: who has traveled to China knows, that's typically the protocol
Speaker 1: that you would use when traveling to China. And he again,
Speaker 1: in very typical fashion, I'm complaining about the fact that
Speaker 1: I'm hired from all the travel, and he patronizingly tells
Speaker 1: me that I can figure out a way to travel better.
Speaker 1: Question by redacted and then and then you reply answer,
Speaker 1: and then I reply again in sort of a snarky way.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not one of your young things. Remember
Speaker 1: he had his girlfriend was probably fifteen years younger than
Speaker 1: me and at that time, and said, I've been doing
Speaker 1: this for twenty years and despite well honed skills, it
Speaker 1: still sucks. Question. So there was his girlfriend, but you
Speaker 1: said you're young things. So answer, well, he also had
Speaker 1: he also had staff, you know, several women in their
Speaker 1: you know, late twenties, early thirties who were on his staff,
Speaker 1: who traveled with him. And so basically saying, don't again,
Speaker 1: don't man explain me. I'm cranky again. He's asking for something,
Speaker 1: he wants me to call him or something, and I
Speaker 1: just landed in China, where I probably didn't want to be. Question,
Speaker 1: what do you remember about those staff? Answer? Pardon question
Speaker 1: the staff you just mentioned, what do you remember about them? Answer?
Speaker 1: I remember that he had quite a large staff, and
Speaker 1: he had, you know, women and men on his staff,
Speaker 1: and he had some assistance, personal assistance. Question do you
Speaker 1: know if all the women on his staff were American?
Speaker 1: Were any of them foreign? Answer? Some of them were
Speaker 1: Russian and Eastern European yes, all right, folks, we're going
Speaker 1: to wrap up right here, and in the next episode,
Speaker 1: we're going to pick up where we left off. All
Speaker 1: the information that goes with this episode can be found
Speaker 1: in the description box.