1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,039 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:44,039 Welcome to Mind of a Murder. 14 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,399 Speaker 2: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:49,439 Speaker 3: Welcome to March everybody. 16 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, we were just talking about how cold and windy 17 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:54,439 is it where you are. 18 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:57,679 Speaker 3: I think it's actually going to start feeling like spring 19 00:00:57,719 --> 00:01:01,359 here fairly soon, so we hope that everybody is enjoying 20 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,159 their first full week of Mark. We're looking forward to 21 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,680 getting out of winter moving into spring, bringing you lots 22 00:01:10,719 --> 00:01:15,079 of brand new episodes before we do that. We did 23 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,760 want to go ahead and make an update on the 24 00:01:17,799 --> 00:01:23,799 Colonial Parkway murders investigation. Mister Thomas, as the brother of 25 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,120 a murder victim, how are you feeling about where the 26 00:01:27,159 --> 00:01:28,400 case is today? 27 00:01:29,079 --> 00:01:34,239 Speaker 2: I'm not very happy? So what else is new? 28 00:01:34,519 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 3: I was gonna say, but are you ever? And then 29 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,120 I thought that was going to be too snarky, but 30 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:39,040 you did it for me. 31 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 2: I want to be clear here. I am often happy 32 00:01:42,799 --> 00:01:45,519 in my life. It's just that when you asked me 33 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,400 a question about how happy are you with the status 34 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,159 of the Colonial Parkway murders investigation, I have to reply 35 00:01:52,359 --> 00:01:56,799 honestly that I'm not particularly happy. There are reasons for that, 36 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,159 and we'll get into what's going on and what might 37 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,239 make a family member, myself or anybody else unhappy about 38 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:05,680 the status of the investigation. 39 00:02:07,239 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 3: But as of March seventh, twenty twenty five, you would 40 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:15,080 not say that your feeling on the case is happy, optimistic, 41 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:16,280 and a bulliant. 42 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:19,719 Speaker 2: No, none of the above. 43 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 3: Okay, all right, we just wanted to get that out 44 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,800 there first thing. We'll just lead with that. 45 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 2: This will become clearer as time goes on. Here. 46 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, now we know that we have people who 47 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,159 are new to the podcast, and we know that we 48 00:02:37,199 --> 00:02:39,080 have people who are new to the case. Bear with 49 00:02:39,159 --> 00:02:41,039 us for those of you that are quite familiar with 50 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,479 the case, as we do a quick recap here for 51 00:02:43,599 --> 00:02:45,879 anybody who is new and still catching up, and then 52 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,800 we'll get to our case investigation. So the current status 53 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,400 of the Colonial Parkway murders investigation hinges largely on knowing 54 00:02:53,479 --> 00:02:58,039 where we started and a year ago, on January eighth, 55 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:01,000 twenty twenty four, the FBI and Ridge un State Police 56 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:04,479 how they press conference in which they announced that Alan 57 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:09,240 Wade Wilmer Senior, a waterman from Lancaster, Virginia, was the 58 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,280 rapist and murderer of Rabin Edwards and David Noveling in 59 00:03:13,319 --> 00:03:17,680 September of nineteen eighty seven. This is something about which 60 00:03:17,719 --> 00:03:23,000 we were hugely optimistic because we felt it meant answers 61 00:03:23,039 --> 00:03:25,039 are probably going to be coming our way for all 62 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:28,599 of us. And so I remember spending January of last 63 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,599 year being very frazzled, but also very optimistic maybe good 64 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,000 things will be happening now. Was that also your feeling 65 00:03:36,159 --> 00:03:37,280 in January of last year? 66 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 2: I think so. As we've talked about before, you and 67 00:03:40,919 --> 00:03:44,919 I had heard from media sources as far back as 68 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,319 October twenty twenty three that this was coming. We knew 69 00:03:49,639 --> 00:03:53,360 the name of the suspect, Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. Other 70 00:03:53,479 --> 00:03:58,000 family members living in dead who were associated with Wilmer. 71 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,960 We knew a lot about him as soon as his 72 00:04:02,159 --> 00:04:06,159 name came up, although I was not familiar with his name. 73 00:04:07,159 --> 00:04:12,479 As soon as the circumstances of who Wilmer was were mentioned, 74 00:04:12,759 --> 00:04:15,560 I said to you, I know who this guy is. 75 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,519 He and his brother were suspects in the Colonial Parkway 76 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:25,600 murders as far back as April nineteen eighty eight. My 77 00:04:26,079 --> 00:04:29,560 father who's passed away since, and other family members we 78 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,720 always referred to them as the watermen, so that we 79 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,439 knew that there were two watermen. Alan Wade Wilmer Senior 80 00:04:36,519 --> 00:04:40,879 and his brother Keith, who's William. Keith Wilmer had been 81 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,439 prominent suspects. We'll get into more details in a minute. 82 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,879 There was some cause for optimism because obviously we have 83 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,120 a link now in incident number two in the Colonial 84 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:53,639 Parkway murders, that is the murderer of Robin Edwards and 85 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,920 David Knobling in September nineteen eighty seven. That's the one 86 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:01,680 at Ragged Island Wildlife Refuge. There was some cause for optimism, 87 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,160 But here we find ourselves a year plus later, still 88 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,439 looking at those facts and waiting for more. 89 00:05:09,959 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 3: We also learned at that time that Wilmer had been 90 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:17,600 tied via DNA to a nineteen eighty nine murder which 91 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,680 we were not familiar with, and that was the murder 92 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:25,560 of Teresa Lynn Spa Howell, whose name, as I mentioned, 93 00:05:25,639 --> 00:05:29,240 we were not familiar with, but who was definitively tied 94 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:33,199 to Wilmer. She was last seen at the Zodiac Club 95 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,680 in Hampton, Virginia, on July first, nineteen eighty nine. And 96 00:05:37,759 --> 00:05:41,160 again learning that there was a new victim in the case, 97 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,439 and learning that there had been another DNA tie, that 98 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,680 also felt like there was cause for optimism there. Okay, 99 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:52,079 they're checking boxes, they're clearing cases. This is good. That 100 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,560 also felt Okay, they're making progress. We're happy about this, 101 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:57,680 We're pleased about this. 102 00:05:58,759 --> 00:06:01,879 Speaker 2: The two agents that seemed to be taking the lead 103 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,759 a year ago were the Virginia State Police, who were 104 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,959 the lead investigative agency in the Robin Edwards David Nobling murder, 105 00:06:09,399 --> 00:06:13,160 and then the Hampton Police Department, with a lead Agency 106 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:18,680 for Teresa Howell. The FBI was involved, and certainly there 107 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,279 are potential tie ins which remained very strong in terms 108 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:26,920 of the other Colonial Parkway murders, but at this time 109 00:06:27,199 --> 00:06:30,759 January twenty twenty four, it felt like the Virginia State 110 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,879 Police and the Hampton PD were taking the lead. 111 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,399 Speaker 3: The idea of Ellen Wade Wilmer Senior through DNA was 112 00:06:39,439 --> 00:06:43,160 done as the result of a SAKE grant sexual Assault 113 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:48,040 Kit Initiative grants requested by the Virginia Department of Forensic Science. 114 00:06:49,079 --> 00:06:52,360 Here is another lab. It is not the FBI lab 115 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,839 at Quantico. It is not any of the other more 116 00:06:56,759 --> 00:06:59,879 I would say technologically enhanced labs that we have been 117 00:07:00,199 --> 00:07:04,519 hoping would work on the case Authrum or Parabon for example. Here, 118 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,439 nonetheless is a lab who got some results, and that 119 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,680 also was something that made us feel very optimistic. 120 00:07:12,399 --> 00:07:16,199 Speaker 2: Now these SAKE grants, the Sexual Assault Kit Initiative grants 121 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,439 are being used around the country. This is Department of 122 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,920 Justice funding used typically to pay a private lab, which 123 00:07:23,959 --> 00:07:26,759 is what happened here. So as you're saying it's not 124 00:07:27,079 --> 00:07:31,519 federal labs or the Commonwealth of Virginia's labs, it's done 125 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:37,959 by an outside laboratory. Very exciting news. Now, the disappointing 126 00:07:38,199 --> 00:07:42,120 aspect of this is that Wilmer himself had died in 127 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:46,519 December twenty seventeen, so he'd been dead for several years. 128 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:52,839 We were told that test results from Wilmer's dying of 129 00:07:52,959 --> 00:07:57,800 natural causes at his home in Lancaster, Virginia were how 130 00:07:58,319 --> 00:08:03,399 his DNA ended up moving on to FBI and Virginia 131 00:08:03,439 --> 00:08:08,480 State Police and ultimately Hampton Police radar. I'm not sure 132 00:08:08,519 --> 00:08:12,000 I accept that explanation at the one hundred percent level. 133 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,480 Some of their story doesn't completely wash for me. 134 00:08:16,639 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 3: I agree, and we've never been given full transparency on 135 00:08:20,399 --> 00:08:23,600 some of these things. And that might also be because 136 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,040 our case is not a Virginia State Police case. Our 137 00:08:27,079 --> 00:08:29,800 case is an FBI case, so that that may be 138 00:08:29,879 --> 00:08:31,439 some of the reason why we don't have all of 139 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:36,240 this information available to us. We learned a little bit 140 00:08:36,399 --> 00:08:38,919 later down the road. It was only a couple of 141 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:43,720 days later that Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior did actually have 142 00:08:43,879 --> 00:08:47,879 a connection to the FBI cases. So he hadn't just 143 00:08:47,919 --> 00:08:52,320 been identified for the Virginia State Police case of Robin 144 00:08:52,399 --> 00:08:55,960 Edwards and David Nabline and the Terry Spa Howell murder. 145 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,000 We also learned that he was a suspect and the 146 00:08:59,039 --> 00:09:03,720 disappearance of Colin Cassandra Haley in nineteen eighty eight. In fact, 147 00:09:03,879 --> 00:09:09,159 he was given two polygraph examinations by an FBI polygraph examiner. 148 00:09:09,519 --> 00:09:13,200 He passed one test, the second was inconclusive, but still 149 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,159 for some reason, the FBI dropped him off their radar. 150 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:21,080 That was the big bombshell news that we were able 151 00:09:21,159 --> 00:09:24,399 to share on the podcast, And at that point the 152 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:29,080 optimistic feelings started churning into something a little different for us, 153 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,639 something similar to anger. 154 00:09:31,879 --> 00:09:36,639 Speaker 2: I would say, yeah, I would say, that's true. One 155 00:09:36,639 --> 00:09:39,000 of the things we were very disappointed about was that 156 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,279 at that January twenty twenty four press conference, the FBI 157 00:09:43,399 --> 00:09:46,519 and the Virginia State Police went out of their way 158 00:09:46,919 --> 00:09:51,279 to not confirm that Alan Wade Wilmer was a suspect 159 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:55,039 in the Call Haley disappearance, which is in April nineteen 160 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,399 eighty eight. So now that's incident number three in the 161 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:02,240 Colonial Parkway murders. As soon as we heard the story, 162 00:10:02,279 --> 00:10:04,799 as I mentioned at the top here, a number of 163 00:10:04,919 --> 00:10:08,919 us said, wait a minute, this is the two watermen. 164 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,840 I knew they were from Lancaster County, Virginia. I knew 165 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,720 a fair amount about them, but I didn't know their names. 166 00:10:16,799 --> 00:10:19,720 But this is as far back as April nineteen eighty eight. 167 00:10:19,799 --> 00:10:22,200 My father, Joe Thomas, who was in touch with our 168 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,919 FBI agents very frequently, he told me a very detailed 169 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:31,759 story with a great amount of information in it about 170 00:10:31,879 --> 00:10:35,159 these two men. And the FBI agents at the time 171 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:40,039 were convinced they had identified the killer of Richard Keith 172 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:44,440 Call and Cassandra Hayley because they had found the highly 173 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,919 distinctive truck that Wilmer was driving, and that was followed 174 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,519 by the two polygraphic examinations you mentioned, as well as 175 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:57,360 an execution of the search warrant at his home. In 176 00:10:57,399 --> 00:11:01,559 depth questioning by the FBI, there was a lot of 177 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:07,000 linkage potentially to the disappearance and likely homicide of Keith 178 00:11:07,039 --> 00:11:09,879 and Sandy. And as you mentioned a minute ago, Kristin, 179 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,480 it's baffling to me that they let him go in 180 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:18,360 nineteen eighty eight and they never circled back. The science 181 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,600 got better and better. DNA came into the four It 182 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,360 wasn't really commonly used at the time of the Colonial 183 00:11:26,399 --> 00:11:30,200 Parkway murders. But as science advanced, I cannot, for the 184 00:11:30,279 --> 00:11:33,000 life of me figure out why they didn't circle back 185 00:11:33,159 --> 00:11:36,200 on Alan Wade Wilmer Senior and potentially his brother. 186 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,879 Speaker 3: Listeners aren't privy to all of the behind the scenes 187 00:11:40,919 --> 00:11:44,159 stuff that you and I are, and I don't think 188 00:11:44,159 --> 00:11:47,120 we've ever really even let our listeners in on exactly 189 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,480 like how many phone calls a day or a week 190 00:11:50,759 --> 00:11:55,039 the two of us exchange, just catching each other up 191 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,559 on news. That was definitely a time in which we 192 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,960 were on the phone with each other constantly. Did you 193 00:12:02,039 --> 00:12:04,360 know about this? Wait? Did you hear about this? Hey? Wait, 194 00:12:04,399 --> 00:12:05,320 did you call Blaine? 195 00:12:05,399 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 2: No? 196 00:12:05,639 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 3: Did you call Andy Fox? 197 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 2: Oh? 198 00:12:07,039 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, did you talk to Joyce? It was I remember 199 00:12:10,799 --> 00:12:15,039 January of twenty twenty four being nothing but an endless 200 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:19,080 round of phone calls between all of us trying to 201 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,559 get on the same page. Who knew it? When? Did 202 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,759 they know it? How do we feel about it? It 203 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,480 was a crazy amount of phone time. 204 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,399 Speaker 2: And one of the things that's worth noting too, this 205 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:33,279 was very frustrating, and I still find this maddening to 206 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:39,519 talk about. Our longtime case agent deliberately scheduled a conference 207 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,440 call which went on for two hours. Mind you, and 208 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:47,759 I welcome the conversation. But ironically it was scheduled to 209 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:52,879 the minute one thirty pm for when the press conference 210 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,879 took place. That was done very deliberately. 211 00:12:56,279 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 3: Yeah, wasn't ironically. 212 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 2: It was done deliberately, Yeah, so that I wouldn't be 213 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,039 able to see the press conference in real time, which 214 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:10,039 was available online worldwide. I wasn't able to respond to 215 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:12,879 the press conference. As a matter of fact, I was 216 00:13:12,919 --> 00:13:16,799 so swamped with, as you're saying, phone calls, emails, and 217 00:13:16,879 --> 00:13:19,720 texts that day, including a lot of people saying to 218 00:13:19,759 --> 00:13:23,799 me on social media, Bill, where are you? Why aren't 219 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,960 you commenting about this? Why aren't you and kristin promoting 220 00:13:28,279 --> 00:13:32,120 this press conference? I was tied up with our case 221 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:36,720 agent for two hours, and that was done deliberately. There's 222 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,200 no way around it. 223 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:41,919 Speaker 3: And it wasn't like she was tying you up with 224 00:13:42,039 --> 00:13:44,720 new information for two hours or anything else. 225 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:49,039 Speaker 2: No, it was a recap. There was information that had 226 00:13:49,039 --> 00:13:53,440 been shared a few days prior with the families of 227 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:58,159 Robin Edwards, David Nobling, and Teresa Howell at a face 228 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,039 to face briefing had by the way, one of the 229 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,879 comments that was made by FBI people at that meeting 230 00:14:06,159 --> 00:14:10,559 was to these other families, don't tell Bill Thomas this 231 00:14:10,759 --> 00:14:13,960 information and if they don't, think that doesn't get back 232 00:14:14,039 --> 00:14:18,879 to me after. I know, yeah, all the families talk frequently. 233 00:14:19,919 --> 00:14:22,320 I was kind of shocked that they would go that 234 00:14:22,559 --> 00:14:26,519 far and be that petty quite frankly, to say, don't 235 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,360 tell Bill Thomas. 236 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:35,919 Speaker 3: I I feel like, given the way things have shaped 237 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,559 out with our former case agent in the last couple 238 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,519 of months, it doesn't surprise me that they would be 239 00:14:43,559 --> 00:14:45,960 willing to be that petty. And that's all I'm going 240 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:52,120 to say about it. It's I, yeah, fan at the 241 00:14:52,159 --> 00:14:56,120 moment of our former case agent for reasons that we 242 00:14:56,279 --> 00:14:59,039 may or may not get into. But I see that 243 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,279 as deliberate and I I do see it as being petty. 244 00:15:02,879 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 2: I'm laughing, not at the situation, but I'm just trying 245 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:07,840 to figure out how much do I want to say 246 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:13,759 today or at any point about what transpired behind closed doors. 247 00:15:13,879 --> 00:15:19,360 It's incredibly frustrating, and I don't think advances the Colonial 248 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,159 Parkery murders investigation not one inch. 249 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 3: No, it doesn't. And this is another sort of inside 250 00:15:27,519 --> 00:15:31,320 baseball thing for our listeners. We are constantly having to 251 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:35,440 weigh for ourselves what we can and cannot say on 252 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,879 this podcast, both about the investigation, because there are things 253 00:15:39,879 --> 00:15:42,720 that we know that we still cannot share, but also 254 00:15:43,399 --> 00:15:45,080 how much of what we say, if it ends up 255 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:48,279 on the air, is going to piss off the FBI. Today, 256 00:15:48,399 --> 00:15:52,799 it doesn't make our job any easier. We're not out 257 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:57,000 to make the FBI's chob easy for them. We're not 258 00:15:57,039 --> 00:16:00,519 intentionally trying to make it harder either. But Bill is 259 00:16:00,519 --> 00:16:03,960 the brother of a murder victim. There are certain rights 260 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,240 that murder victims and their families have in this country, 261 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,000 and I don't always see the FBI trying to protect 262 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,360 those rights to the best of their ability. And there 263 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,399 have been times throughout this last couple of months within 264 00:16:18,519 --> 00:16:22,679 this investigation where I've just shaken my head and been like, boy, 265 00:16:22,879 --> 00:16:24,879 if we put that out on the podcast, it's going 266 00:16:24,919 --> 00:16:26,720 to piss off the FBI. But I feel like we 267 00:16:26,759 --> 00:16:29,200 really need to be able to say it. It's hard 268 00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:33,039 trying to weigh this out because we're constantly I've said 269 00:16:33,039 --> 00:16:34,879 a couple of times, I feel like we're constantly playing 270 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,720 like three dimensional multi level chess, trying to figure out 271 00:16:38,759 --> 00:16:41,200 what can we say? At what point can we say it, 272 00:16:41,279 --> 00:16:44,279 and what do we absolutely not say unless we need 273 00:16:44,279 --> 00:16:45,960 to push the big red nuclear button. 274 00:16:48,159 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 2: For those of you that have been listening carefully, you 275 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,919 can probably hear me roll my eyes multiple times in 276 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:54,320 the last minute or two. 277 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,759 Speaker 3: At this point, we have rec I think about as 278 00:17:01,919 --> 00:17:02,919 much as we can. 279 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 2: There's one thing I'd like to add, which is you 280 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:08,680 mentioned this, but I think I want to spend a 281 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:09,400 minute on this. 282 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 283 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 2: God isn't until the Colonial Parkway murders. Families and reporters, 284 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,119 as you mentioned, like Andy Fox and our friend and 285 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:22,720 author Blaine Pardo, and myself and others called the FBI 286 00:17:23,079 --> 00:17:26,279 out on the fact that Wilmer had been a leading 287 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:31,799 suspect in the call Haley disappearance. Andy Fox, the reporter 288 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:37,519 for Wavy Television, asked the question twice at the press conference. 289 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:43,119 Can you say when Wilmer first moved on to your radar? Now, 290 00:17:43,279 --> 00:17:46,759 Andy Fox has covered this case since the very first day. 291 00:17:47,039 --> 00:17:50,279 He knows the answer to the question, which is, four 292 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:54,359 days after this disappearance of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley, the 293 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:59,119 FBI was looking hard at Wilmer as the leading suspect. 294 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,920 He was referred to as suspect number one in the 295 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:06,200 call Hailey disappearance, and yet the spokeswoman at that press 296 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:12,440 conference refused to say she actually just said no, she 297 00:18:12,519 --> 00:18:16,119 would not answer the question when did Alan Wade Wilmer 298 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:18,359 Senior first move on to your radar? And he asked 299 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:23,240 the question twice a few days after the press conference, 300 00:18:23,519 --> 00:18:27,920 when media coverage began to build with quotes from all 301 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,359 of us saying, wait a minute, we knew who these 302 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:36,240 watermen were. Why aren't you stating that Wilmer was also 303 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,000 the leading suspect in the call Hailey disappearance. Because now 304 00:18:40,039 --> 00:18:42,359 you're starting to look at a pattern where you've got 305 00:18:42,599 --> 00:18:47,240 Wilmer linked via DNA to incident number two in the 306 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,119 Colonial Parkway murders Robin Everts and David Knappling. And it 307 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,960 turns out he's the leading suspect in the April nineteen 308 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,240 eighty eight disappearance of Keith Colin. Cassandra Haley flashed forward 309 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,119 to Jill nineteen eighty nine. We know he's linked via 310 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:07,720 DNA again, these are confirmed to the murder of Teresa Howell. 311 00:19:08,519 --> 00:19:12,440 Why are we glossing over the fact that Wilmer had 312 00:19:12,519 --> 00:19:15,720 been a leading suspect in the Carl Haley disappearance. 313 00:19:16,799 --> 00:19:21,079 Speaker 3: We're glossing over it, because if they had followed up 314 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,920 as they should have and kept him on their radar, 315 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:30,440 Teresa Howell would still be alive. Let's be very clear 316 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,720 about that. And I'll even say it again for anybody 317 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,519 who may have missed it the first time. Teresa Howell 318 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:41,319 would still be alive today if Wilmer had been followed 319 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,240 up on as he should have been after those polygraph tests. 320 00:19:46,279 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 2: I spoke with the polygraph examiner who gave these tests. 321 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,519 I'll leave his name out of it, but I've spoken 322 00:19:53,559 --> 00:19:56,599 to him, and he even said to me he would 323 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:01,440 not have let Wilmer go. I am baffled. I don't 324 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,640 know whose call this was, but it was a bad call. 325 00:20:05,519 --> 00:20:09,599 Even if to the limits of the technology available to 326 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,799 them in nineteen eighty eight, it didn't look like they 327 00:20:12,839 --> 00:20:16,400 had enough to charge Wilmer. Where was the follow up? 328 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,680 Why didn't they circle back? They've told us for years 329 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:22,640 there are at least one hundred and fifty persons of 330 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,799 interest in this case. The investigators have said to me 331 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,000 numerous times. Bill, It's not like all one hundred and 332 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,240 fifty of them are considered the most likely. They are 333 00:20:32,319 --> 00:20:36,160 usually ten or fifteen people, maybe even a shorter list 334 00:20:36,839 --> 00:20:41,400 that are considered the most likely. No one's eliminated until 335 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,440 the case is solved. One hundred and fifty persons of interest, 336 00:20:46,079 --> 00:20:48,000 he could probably put one hundred and thirty five of 337 00:20:48,039 --> 00:20:51,039 them to the side. But why wasn't Wilmer on the 338 00:20:51,079 --> 00:20:54,039 short list? When you look back at it, he checks 339 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,039 so many boxes in this case exactly. 340 00:20:58,319 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 3: And then the more that we learned about Wilmer, about 341 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:05,079 his habit of trolling the Colonial Parkway, pulling people over, 342 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:11,160 flashing his high beams, approaching people in their cars or 343 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,599 trucks parked on the parkway, or over near the Victory Monument. 344 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,480 In one case, he really should have been more and 345 00:21:18,559 --> 00:21:22,279 more on someone's radar. The fact that he wasn't again, 346 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,559 I think, leads to Teresa Howell's death in nineteen eighty nine. 347 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:31,000 And if it turns out that he is eventually linked 348 00:21:31,079 --> 00:21:34,440 to Anna Maria Phelps, and Daniel Lower or any other 349 00:21:34,519 --> 00:21:38,799 cases like ember Lundgren down in Asheville, North Carolina, there 350 00:21:38,799 --> 00:21:41,880 are many other people who would still be alive if 351 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,319 Wilmer had been treated appropriately as the suspect that he 352 00:21:45,319 --> 00:21:45,880 should have been. 353 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:51,279 Speaker 2: From minute one, You're listening to Mind Over Murder. We'll 354 00:21:51,279 --> 00:22:05,839 be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're 355 00:22:05,839 --> 00:22:07,400 back here at mindover Murder. 356 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,759 Speaker 3: I think at this point too, if we still have 357 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:16,920 FBI analysts listening, I think they deserve to hear exactly 358 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,039 what we think went wrong in this case. And what 359 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,480 went wrong was somebody who can keep an eye. 360 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 2: On Wilmer agreed completely. Moving forward to the present day, 361 00:22:27,839 --> 00:22:31,680 we find ourselves with a new set of circumstances and 362 00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:37,680 an all new FBI team investigating the Colonial Parkway murders. 363 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 3: Yes, because there have been recent shakeups throughout the FBI, 364 00:22:45,799 --> 00:22:50,680 we now find ourselves starting at the beginning again, because 365 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,960 there have been major changes underway, both at the top 366 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,119 of the FBI with a new director and a new 367 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:03,960 assistant director at the same time. Changes have been made 368 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,119 not just at the top, but also trickled down. There 369 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,759 is a whole new team at FBI Norfolk and FBI 370 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,000 Newport News. We have a whole new set of case 371 00:23:15,079 --> 00:23:20,440 agents because our current case agent retired back in January. 372 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,640 We are at a point where we are starting over 373 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,319 again with a fresh set of eyes. And at first 374 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,400 I know that was a little disheartening, but as I 375 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,440 try to do so often in our relationship. I tried 376 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,039 to talk you off the ledge, and I think eventually 377 00:23:40,079 --> 00:23:42,920 I managed to convince you that actually having a fresh 378 00:23:43,079 --> 00:23:45,799 set of eyes, or multiple fresh sets of eyes, is 379 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,799 probably a good thing. Do you want to expand on 380 00:23:48,839 --> 00:23:49,440 that a little bit? 381 00:23:49,799 --> 00:23:53,440 Speaker 2: Sure? First of all, you're absolutely right. We have an 382 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,480 all new team. So we have a new case agent, 383 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,799 and then there's a supervisory level and that person is 384 00:24:01,839 --> 00:24:05,640 an a Sack Assistant Special Agent in charge, and that's 385 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,720 the person running the Newport News office the Peninsula offices 386 00:24:10,799 --> 00:24:13,279 they refer to it. And then we have a new 387 00:24:13,559 --> 00:24:17,200 special Agent in charge of the Norfolk Field office. So 388 00:24:17,839 --> 00:24:20,839 that's all three of the people that would be most 389 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,279 hands on now. Obviously, our new case agent is still 390 00:24:24,319 --> 00:24:26,640 coming up to speed on the case. I spoke with 391 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,680 her a few weeks ago, and I spoke with the 392 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,079 new person who is the ASAK, the assistant Special Agent 393 00:24:34,079 --> 00:24:37,680 in charge of the Peninsula office, and he's also brand new. 394 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,279 He's been there about a year. They both have great 395 00:24:41,319 --> 00:24:45,200 experience with the FBI, but they have not been handling 396 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:50,240 the Colonial Parkway murders except in recent months. One of 397 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,720 the causes for optimism and thank you for talking me off. 398 00:24:53,759 --> 00:24:57,759 The ledge is that when we look at a similar case, 399 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,960 which is the case of Julie Williams and Lolly Winans 400 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,039 in the Shenandoah National Park in nineteen ninety six, there 401 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,400 was a recent solve in that case, and that was 402 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:14,240 a situation where not dissimilar to this one. They had 403 00:25:14,279 --> 00:25:19,119 a complete turnover in the Richmond office as a result, 404 00:25:19,279 --> 00:25:22,960 it was an all new team and there are I 405 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:27,240 think some real advantages to having what we've talked about before, 406 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:32,119 fresh eyes, fresh perspective, not being wedded to the theories 407 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,000 of the past. We think that may have been a 408 00:25:35,039 --> 00:25:37,880 problem in the Colonial Parkway murders over the years, where 409 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,359 people had particular suspects they really liked and perhaps blinders 410 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,720 on in terms of who else could be involved. It 411 00:25:46,759 --> 00:25:49,720 initially made me very uncomfortable. I felt like we were 412 00:25:49,759 --> 00:25:53,920 losing a lot of case knowledge and experience with the 413 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:58,200 retirement of our case agent and the promotions of our 414 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,799 next two levels at Newport News and Norford. Once I 415 00:26:02,839 --> 00:26:08,160 had a chance to think about it, calm down. That 416 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,680 fresh eyes, fresh perspective thing. There's some real validity to that, 417 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,599 So I want to be optimistic. 418 00:26:15,279 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 3: I can say this because I don't think our former 419 00:26:17,039 --> 00:26:21,200 case agent is listening. I think that there have been 420 00:26:21,799 --> 00:26:26,759 times over the last couple of years when a very 421 00:26:26,799 --> 00:26:31,000 adversarial relationship that can sometimes exist between you and our 422 00:26:31,039 --> 00:26:35,920 former case agent have maybe kept them from listening to 423 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,640 valid theories or taken into consideration valid things that you 424 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,240 have brought forward. I am hoping that with this new 425 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,400 set of eyes and ears on the case, you guys 426 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:54,880 can re establish a hopefully better and less adversarial relationship 427 00:26:55,039 --> 00:26:59,400 and they can start looking at you as a source 428 00:26:59,519 --> 00:27:03,839 of care case knowledge and case information rather than there's 429 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,440 that guy with the frickin' podcast. He is one hundred 430 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,559 percent out to get us, because for the record, we've 431 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,480 never been out to get the FBI. That has never 432 00:27:13,519 --> 00:27:17,920 been the goal here. The goal is accountability and transparency. 433 00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,359 They are the ones who can get the job done. Ultimately, 434 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,799 we can't go out and arrest people, interrogate people, or 435 00:27:24,839 --> 00:27:27,839 anything else. We don't have that knowledge, we don't have 436 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,960 that skill set. We don't even have a set of 437 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,799 handcuffs we can do it with. They are the ones 438 00:27:32,799 --> 00:27:35,839 who have to do these things. Our job is to 439 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,759 encourage anybody who has information to report it, and our 440 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,440 job is to hold them accountable. I'm hoping that this 441 00:27:44,599 --> 00:27:49,279 relationship will go a little bit more smoothly now that 442 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,680 we have a new set of people in hand and 443 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,680 we can start with a clean slate. Is that too optimistic? 444 00:27:57,799 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 2: Certainly my goal. They're been a lot of times in 445 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,400 the last eleven years since this case agent took over 446 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,920 where I've thought to myself, I have no idea why 447 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,720 we're butting heads like this. But she had said some 448 00:28:10,839 --> 00:28:13,240 things to me, like you think you're going to solve 449 00:28:13,279 --> 00:28:16,400 the Colonial Parkway murders. And I stopped her and I said, 450 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,480 at no point have I ever said that, And at 451 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,240 no point have I ever thought that Kristin and I 452 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,359 are not investigators. I'm the brother of a murder victim. 453 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,680 She is a victim's advocate and a writer, and we 454 00:28:29,759 --> 00:28:33,440 do a podcast together. But we don't think, nor have 455 00:28:33,519 --> 00:28:37,079 we ever thought, we have the capability to solve the 456 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,920 Colonial Parkway murders. I'm putting air quotes around that that's 457 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,000 the FBI's job. And there have been times, and you 458 00:28:44,039 --> 00:28:47,039 can mix in your favorite profanities here where I've gotten 459 00:28:47,039 --> 00:28:54,000 completely exasperated. Do your efin job. No, we're not thinking 460 00:28:54,039 --> 00:28:56,960 we're going to solve the Colonial Parkway murders. We're asking 461 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,279 you to do your job. Over the years, I have 462 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,000 provided a ton of information things that have moved on 463 00:29:04,039 --> 00:29:07,279 to our radar as a result of doing this podcast 464 00:29:07,359 --> 00:29:10,640 and our advocacy in this case. But we share that 465 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:15,039 information with the FBI on a regular basis. I typed 466 00:29:15,039 --> 00:29:18,200 the information up and I sent it to them. One 467 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,240 of the areas where we got most tangled in a contentious, 468 00:29:22,759 --> 00:29:28,039 argumentative period was at one point when someone that approached 469 00:29:28,119 --> 00:29:30,799 us at crime Con a couple of years ago with 470 00:29:31,079 --> 00:29:34,640 an important tip. We've talked about this before. I had 471 00:29:34,799 --> 00:29:40,000 missed the opportunity to grab a notebook and write down 472 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,319 this woman's contact information, and she very much wanted to 473 00:29:43,359 --> 00:29:47,359 meet you, and you had not yet arrived on seeing 474 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:49,759 you were delayed with flame trouble. 475 00:29:49,799 --> 00:29:53,319 Speaker 3: As I recall now, it was a late it was 476 00:29:53,319 --> 00:29:57,160 a weather delay trying to get into Orlando. And yeah, 477 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,000 that wasn't the best crime Con ever heard, because we'd 478 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,680 started out that way, and as soon as I arrived, 479 00:30:03,799 --> 00:30:06,880 you had told me, oh my god, this person had 480 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,799 offered this wonderful tip. Machine never came back and I 481 00:30:10,839 --> 00:30:13,000 wasn't able to get down her information. I remember we 482 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:14,319 were both stewing about it. 483 00:30:14,599 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and this was one of those situations where, like 484 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,680 an idiot, I mentioned this to our case agent when 485 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,759 we got back from crime Con. She was very interested. 486 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:30,599 I didn't have contact information at that point for this 487 00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:34,039 individual and her husband. They had both approached. They lived 488 00:30:34,039 --> 00:30:36,920 in Virginia, they did have a connection to the Colonial 489 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,640 Parkray murders, and they were really trying to be helpful. 490 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,720 But like I said, like an idiot, I didn't write 491 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,440 down her name, phone number, or email address, anything like 492 00:30:46,519 --> 00:30:48,440 that because I thought we were going to see her 493 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:53,359 the next day, and for whatever reason, that didn't happen. Eventually, 494 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,319 after a two week push by the two of us 495 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,279 and with crime CON's help, we put out notice is 496 00:31:00,319 --> 00:31:02,839 on our Mind Over Murder podcast that we were looking 497 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,000 for these individuals. We did hear from them, and the 498 00:31:06,039 --> 00:31:08,759 woman was really nice and she never said anything. But 499 00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:10,880 I actually think they were on vacation. I think they 500 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,039 went to Disney World or something, which is right next 501 00:31:13,039 --> 00:31:17,319 door to the Orlando location. In the meantime, I have 502 00:31:17,759 --> 00:31:22,559 our case agent literally threatening me, insisting that I'm withholding 503 00:31:22,599 --> 00:31:27,759 information in my sister's murder investigation, and I was furious 504 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,599 and I said, on what effing planet am I going 505 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,319 to withhold information in the Colonial Parkway murders, which I 506 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:42,400 remind you is my sister's murder investigation. This is insane. Yes, 507 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,559 I'm embarrassed that I didn't get this woman's contact information. 508 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,720 Kristin and I are doing everything we can to find 509 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,160 this woman, and we were successful. So two weeks later 510 00:31:52,519 --> 00:31:55,119 we were able to hear from this woman. I talked 511 00:31:55,119 --> 00:31:57,440 to her. I typed it all up like we do 512 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,880 every single time it into the FBI, and they said 513 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,359 thank you, and then they followed up as appropriate whether 514 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,480 or not that tip led anywhere, that's for the FBI 515 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,680 to decide, not for Kristin Dilly or Bill Thomas to decide. 516 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,599 But it's things like that where they actually threatened me. 517 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,279 They actually said we're going to bring you up on 518 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,960 federal obstruction of justice charges, and of course I just 519 00:32:22,039 --> 00:32:26,480 blew up and I was like, go right ahead, if 520 00:32:26,519 --> 00:32:28,000 you think that's going to change things. 521 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 3: There have been times where I have posed the question 522 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:33,960 to myself, and one time when I posed it out 523 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,200 loud to you as to whether the biggest issue in 524 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,359 this case is with the Bureau as a whole, or 525 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,880 with that case agent in particular, for what it's worth. 526 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,839 And it's not worth a whole lot, because I'm not 527 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,519 the brother of a murder victim. I'm just a victim's advocate. 528 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,079 I think the biggest issue with the case over the 529 00:32:54,119 --> 00:32:58,240 last couple of years has been that agent, not the Bureau. 530 00:32:59,039 --> 00:33:02,000 And I know you don't agree with me necessarily on that, 531 00:33:02,119 --> 00:33:04,000 and that's fine. I'm willing to be wrong, but for 532 00:33:04,079 --> 00:33:07,759 what it's worth, I think the biggest issue recently has 533 00:33:07,839 --> 00:33:11,519 not been the FBI as an umbrella, but more the 534 00:33:11,559 --> 00:33:13,599 issues that came up with that particular agent. 535 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,599 Speaker 2: Speaking of willing to be wrong, I was shocked by this. 536 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,119 In the last few weeks of her time with the FBI, 537 00:33:21,599 --> 00:33:25,960 she actually said to another family member who we're close with, 538 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,839 that we the families were going to be embarrassed when 539 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,039 they solved the Colonial Parkway murders. Now, I love the 540 00:33:34,119 --> 00:33:37,440 optimism that the FBI is ultimately going to be able 541 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,559 to solve this case. I really do appreciate that. But 542 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,680 the idea that we're going to be embarrassed, and when 543 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,640 she says the family members, let's be really honest here, 544 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,200 she means me because I'm the most outspoken family member 545 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,759 regarding the Colonial Parkway murders. So what she's saying is 546 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,720 we I am going to be embarrassed when they solve 547 00:33:57,799 --> 00:34:02,039 this case. And I'm like, really, thirty eight years later 548 00:34:02,119 --> 00:34:06,200 and I'm going to be embarrassed. I'm totally willing to 549 00:34:06,279 --> 00:34:09,920 be embarrassed. So far, I haven't been able to wrap 550 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,199 my brain around that one. 551 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,320 Speaker 3: It embarrassed for what for? What for speaking out, for 552 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,360 kicking up a fuss, for being irate that your sister's 553 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,159 case has not been solved in thirty eight years. It's 554 00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:25,000 going to be thirty nine years this year, and the 555 00:34:25,119 --> 00:34:28,679 year after that it's going to be forty. There is 556 00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:32,000 nothing embarrassing here other than the fact that this case 557 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,360 should have been solved long ago. When you told me that, 558 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,199 I saw red, and I don't see red very often 559 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,320 in terms of my temper, but boy, that was enraging. 560 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 2: If I owe anybody an apology, they'll get one. And 561 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:53,039 I have made misstatements over the years, as I said 562 00:34:53,039 --> 00:34:57,400 to this case agent and others, I'll apologize for anything 563 00:34:57,679 --> 00:35:02,960 I got wrong. Point it out. Please tell me where 564 00:35:03,159 --> 00:35:05,880 we got it wrong. And I will suck it up 565 00:35:06,079 --> 00:35:10,639 and apologize, but I am fully prepared to be embarrassed, 566 00:35:10,679 --> 00:35:12,400 but somehow I'm doubting it. 567 00:35:13,519 --> 00:35:15,880 Speaker 3: As much as I hate to end the FBI bashing, 568 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,239 we probably should. I want to make sure that you 569 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,119 have a chance to update everybody on the two questions 570 00:35:23,159 --> 00:35:26,639 that people ask us most about. Number one, what's going 571 00:35:26,679 --> 00:35:29,840 on with DNA and number two, what's going on with 572 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,119 Cotis and Wilmer. So I'm going to go ahead and 573 00:35:32,159 --> 00:35:34,800 ask you about the first one, what is going on 574 00:35:35,199 --> 00:35:38,960 with DNA results? Is anything new coming down the pipeline? 575 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:44,119 Speaker 2: We're hopeful, real important. Remember the discussion we had a 576 00:35:44,159 --> 00:35:48,079 few minutes ago about the breakthrough in the Robin Edwards 577 00:35:48,159 --> 00:35:51,039 David Nobling part of the case, which was due to 578 00:35:51,039 --> 00:35:56,679 WITHSAKE grant, the Sexual Assault Kit Initiatives grant. After the 579 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:02,840 success of that grant, the Virginia Department of Forensic Sciences 580 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:08,719 requested additional grants for cal Haley and Thomas Dowski, and 581 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:14,199 we were promised updated DNA results in October twenty twenty 582 00:36:14,199 --> 00:36:18,000 four for cal Haley and in November twenty twenty four 583 00:36:18,079 --> 00:36:21,480 for Thomas Dowski, but we still don't have any results, 584 00:36:21,559 --> 00:36:24,840 which is really frustrating. I feel like this is always 585 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:29,199 such a moving target. I understand ours is a cold case. 586 00:36:29,679 --> 00:36:32,719 It doesn't get the high priority that an case that 587 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:37,280 involving a terrible murderer, what have you, that might have 588 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:41,320 happened last week. We do understand that. But when grants 589 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,960 have been provided by the SHAKE program, what's the hold 590 00:36:46,079 --> 00:36:50,199 up here? Now? We did hear from the FBI regarding 591 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,840 Carl Haley that they were going to do an amplification 592 00:36:54,079 --> 00:36:59,079 technique in the DNA that they were testing from Keith 593 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:04,639 Calls to at Oslica. Apparently they did find DNA and 594 00:37:04,679 --> 00:37:08,039 they were amplifying it. It's like a signal boost. We 595 00:37:08,039 --> 00:37:12,400 were expecting results in December twenty twenty four, but here 596 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:16,440 it is now March twenty twenty five, still no update. 597 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,280 And then we never heard anything in Kathy Thomas and 598 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:24,960 Rebecca Dowski's DNA retests that woul due in November twenty 599 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:29,719 twenty four, So that part it's still a frustrating moving target. 600 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,119 You mentioned the codis thing. We've been asking a lot 601 00:37:34,119 --> 00:37:38,280 of questions over the past year. Why wasn't Alan Wade 602 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,840 Wilmer Seniors DNA ever placed into the codas system, which 603 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,480 to our knowledge it still has never been placed in COTIS. 604 00:37:47,079 --> 00:37:53,199 That's the combined DNA index system. Unfortunately, according to the 605 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,400 rules in the Commonwealth of Virginia and every state is 606 00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:00,000 a little different, Wilmer was never charged with a FELT, 607 00:38:00,679 --> 00:38:06,159 so his DNA was never placed in the CODIS system. 608 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,639 Apparently they can do one to one testing, that is 609 00:38:09,679 --> 00:38:15,440 looking at Wilmer's DNA versus individual cases, but we are 610 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,480 really looking as families for a one to many search, 611 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,119 which is what CODIS typically provides. 612 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,159 Speaker 3: Yes, So that's a good example of what we call 613 00:38:25,199 --> 00:38:27,719 the CODIS gap that we've talked to Lindsay Wade and 614 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,519 others about. And that is something that I think can 615 00:38:30,599 --> 00:38:34,719 probably just be solved with some legislation, which hopefully the 616 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,239 AG's office would be willing to help us out with 617 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,760 or someone else with a footing Capitol Hill, either up 618 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,119 in Richmond or up in DC. And that's something I 619 00:38:43,119 --> 00:38:46,519 think that we're still going to be looking into. I 620 00:38:46,559 --> 00:38:50,719 think that things are probably going to move slowly for 621 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,679 a while because we do still have a team that 622 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,000 is trying to get up to speed a case that 623 00:38:57,039 --> 00:39:01,039 has extended for thirty eight years. I heard someone I 624 00:39:01,039 --> 00:39:03,679 don't remember what book I read it in or I 625 00:39:03,679 --> 00:39:05,960 heard someone say it, but they are. They talked about 626 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,679 this concept of tonnage of a case that has so 627 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,920 much paperwork and files to it that it gets crushed 628 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,119 under its own inertia. I would assume that there is 629 00:39:16,159 --> 00:39:20,559 a ton of paperwork and files to go through in 630 00:39:20,599 --> 00:39:23,199 the lifespan of this thirty eight year old case. So 631 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,800 I'm betting that our new case agents are probably going 632 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:28,519 to take a little bit to get up to speed, 633 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,119 and I'm not going to begrudge them that time to learn. 634 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,360 If you want to learn the case inside and out, 635 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,119 you've got to do all the reading and talk to 636 00:39:36,159 --> 00:39:39,400 everybody who's worked on it previously. So I do hope 637 00:39:39,519 --> 00:39:41,800 that they are taking the time to really get to 638 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,000 know every aspect of this case the same way that 639 00:39:44,039 --> 00:39:48,599 we are. If it means a little slow going and 640 00:39:48,639 --> 00:39:51,599 then eventually pick up speed, I'm fine with it. What 641 00:39:51,679 --> 00:39:55,039 are your hopes moving forward, Bill. 642 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,360 Speaker 2: I'm hoping that all the changes at the FBI, which 643 00:39:57,559 --> 00:40:02,039 start at the very top and extend down to our 644 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:08,880 case agents and ASAX and sacs in Norfolk. I understand 645 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,559 it's going to take some time to come up to speed, 646 00:40:11,679 --> 00:40:15,639 But there are a lot of great leads and fantastic 647 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:19,400 work that's gone into this case that should be ripe 648 00:40:19,519 --> 00:40:23,079 for the plucking. We understand that other suspects have been 649 00:40:23,119 --> 00:40:27,480 identified but not named. We're aware of the fact that 650 00:40:27,519 --> 00:40:30,440 there are at least three other suspects in the Colonial 651 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,840 Parkway murders. We'd love to see those leads followed up on. 652 00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:39,119 We actually participated in some of that analysis, and we 653 00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:43,559 provided contact information for some people that the FBI was 654 00:40:43,639 --> 00:40:46,440 looking for. There was some confusion about names, and we 655 00:40:46,559 --> 00:40:48,880 asked some people that know this case and they were 656 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,760 able to provide information, which again we turned over to 657 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,559 the FBI. They're the investigators, not two of us. I 658 00:40:55,639 --> 00:40:58,400 think we did some really good work with some help 659 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,199 from friends of ours. We've got a lot of people 660 00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:05,159 pulling for our success. I would love to see this 661 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,960 case move forward. I do get your point, kristin that 662 00:41:10,159 --> 00:41:13,320 there are thousands and thousands of documents in the case file. 663 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,519 There's a lot of analysis that's gone into this case, 664 00:41:17,599 --> 00:41:20,800 and a lot of work and a lot of terrific investigators, 665 00:41:21,199 --> 00:41:25,039 forensics experts, and others who've worked this case. I just 666 00:41:25,079 --> 00:41:26,960 think we need to try to find a way to 667 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:28,519 push this over the finish line. 668 00:41:29,199 --> 00:41:33,159 Speaker 3: I agree, and I'm hoping that these newer case agents 669 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,679 are I'm hoping that in addition to a new fresh 670 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,400 set of eyes, they will have a new fresh set 671 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:44,320 of perspectives on this sort of help that can come 672 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:50,239 with a sort of partnership of information with victims, families, advocates, 673 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,760 and case experts. I would love to see the FBI 674 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,920 and other law enforcement agencies moving forward leaning into this 675 00:41:58,079 --> 00:42:03,320 idea that reaching out to experts, civilian experts, crowdsourcing, various 676 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,840 other things. Those are ways of helping to solve cases. 677 00:42:07,199 --> 00:42:09,400 I know that the Bureau kind of likes to kick 678 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,760 at old school, and that's fine. Maybe they're never going 679 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,480 to lean into this idea. But I would love to 680 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,719 see people and law enforcement agencies lean on people like 681 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,880 us because we do have a lot of case knowledge, 682 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,719 a lot of content knowledge. We have willingness to help, 683 00:42:25,079 --> 00:42:27,599 we are eager to help, and I would love to 684 00:42:27,599 --> 00:42:31,440 see all of these thousands and thousands, if not millions 685 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,920 of at home sluice citizens, sluice citizens detectives be tapped 686 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,519 for some use for some of these things. I want 687 00:42:38,519 --> 00:42:40,719 to give a shout out to two of our amazing 688 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:46,840 research assistants, Debbie and Nancy, who are just they're absolutely amazing. 689 00:42:47,039 --> 00:42:49,159 Every time that we have asked them, can you help 690 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,239 us do some research on something, They're there with it. 691 00:42:52,639 --> 00:42:55,559 They are amazingly helpful, They're so supportive, they come to 692 00:42:55,599 --> 00:42:58,360 all of our live events. They are really just top 693 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,280 Nutch people and we love them too to death. And 694 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,239 there are so many people out there like Debbie and Nancy. 695 00:43:04,599 --> 00:43:07,159 There are tons of people like Robert Gray, who always 696 00:43:07,199 --> 00:43:11,960 asks amazing questions. We have so many wonderful supporters out 697 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,119 there who want to help and are willing to help. 698 00:43:14,159 --> 00:43:17,119 I'm hoping that as we move forward through the next 699 00:43:17,199 --> 00:43:20,639 couple of years, law enforcement looks at all the citizens 700 00:43:20,679 --> 00:43:23,480 sleuths out there and figures out a way how can 701 00:43:23,519 --> 00:43:26,800 we tap into that knowledge because it is vast. There 702 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,199 are a lot of us who want to help. I'll 703 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:30,480 get off my soapbox now. 704 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 2: And there's certainly one other person we should mention, which 705 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,639 is a geographic profiler, Doug McGregor. He was the one 706 00:43:39,679 --> 00:43:43,920 who was incredibly helpful when we were looking for a 707 00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:49,639 particular family member who had been associated with Wilmer. With 708 00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,320 Doug's help, we were able to find this person and 709 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,639 pass along their information to the FBI. Whether or not 710 00:43:55,679 --> 00:43:59,400 that pans out, they don't always tell us that hope 711 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,320 springs it. Ernel. We are really hoping that we can 712 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:08,599 see this thing through to a satisfactory conclusion with identified 713 00:44:08,639 --> 00:44:12,679 suspects living or dead, and get this case solved. 714 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,039 Speaker 3: While we're doing shout outs here, though, we also want 715 00:44:15,079 --> 00:44:17,639 to shout out Keith Mamacos, who is very good at 716 00:44:17,639 --> 00:44:20,960 doing all things detail oriented with this case. We want 717 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:22,639 to shout out Michelle who comes to all of our 718 00:44:22,679 --> 00:44:25,559 live events, Susan who comes to Crime con all the time. 719 00:44:25,599 --> 00:44:29,320 We have so many wonderful people here locally, Heather who 720 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,000 works at a bookshop in downtown CW who is always 721 00:44:32,039 --> 00:44:35,119 so nice and always sports beautiful mind over Murder t shirts. 722 00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,519 You guys are the best, and we really could not 723 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:43,000 do this without you. You make us feel good about 724 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,119 the work that we're doing. You make us feel like 725 00:44:45,159 --> 00:44:48,960 it's appreciated, and so thank you very much to everybody, 726 00:44:49,679 --> 00:44:53,199 And also whoever recently updated the Wikipedia page for the 727 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,559 Colonial Parkway murders. That was spot on an excellent thank 728 00:44:56,599 --> 00:44:57,559 you to whoever did that. 729 00:44:58,159 --> 00:45:02,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, I just noticed that today We'd have some problems 730 00:45:02,679 --> 00:45:05,719 with Wikipedia in the past, but somebody went in there 731 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,079 and did a very nice update, and thank you for that. 732 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:10,519 Speaker 3: If you all like the work that we're doing, and 733 00:45:10,559 --> 00:45:13,159 we hope that you do because you're listening, please do 734 00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,960 feel free to leave us five star ratings and reviews 735 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,039 on just about every platform that you can think of. 736 00:45:18,119 --> 00:45:20,280 We do want to keep growing the podcast as much 737 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,440 as possible. We are looking to start a Patreon with 738 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,840 a couple of different levels of support coming up here, 739 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:31,159 and so do be looking forward to patreons to live events. 740 00:45:31,199 --> 00:45:33,000 We do have a live event coming up in May, 741 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,199 and of course we have Crime Con coming up in September. 742 00:45:37,039 --> 00:45:39,639 We are still looking for other ways to engage with 743 00:45:39,679 --> 00:45:41,960 you all, but please reach out to us on our 744 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,280 social media pages like us, rate us, review us, give 745 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,920 us five stars. Anything that you can do to support 746 00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,039 the pod, we appreciate that is going to do it. 747 00:45:51,079 --> 00:45:53,559 For this episode of Mind and From Murder, thank you 748 00:45:53,599 --> 00:45:56,239 so much for listening. We'll see you next time. 749 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,440 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 750 00:46:09,559 --> 00:46:10,960 Another Dog Productions. 751 00:46:11,559 --> 00:46:14,880 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 752 00:46:15,199 --> 00:46:17,639 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 753 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:20,320 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McCloud. 754 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:24,760 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 755 00:46:25,559 --> 00:46:28,800 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 756 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,519 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 757 00:46:31,599 --> 00:46:33,400 Murders on Facebook. 758 00:46:33,199 --> 00:46:36,199 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 759 00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:37,880 Bill Thomas. Five six. 760 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,440 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder. 761 00:47:02,079 --> 00:47:26,079 Speaker 3: Eight