WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.960 --> 00:00:04.799 For those of you tuning in, this is a little 2 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:06.240 bit of a rough start, but it is the start 3 00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:10.960 of the Adventures in DevOps podcast episode number whatever. I 4 00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:14.439 don't even know what number were on anymore. But today's topic, 5 00:00:14.759 --> 00:00:18.199 it's a little DevOps therapy session. Joining me in the 6 00:00:18.199 --> 00:00:22.600 therapy room today, Warren Perrad to Born, Hey, you. 7 00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:25.559 Know, I h you say therapy as sort of a 8 00:00:25.640 --> 00:00:28.640 joke there, but I frequently not as a joke, say 9 00:00:28.640 --> 00:00:30.399 the tea and my executive title. 10 00:00:30.519 --> 00:00:35.479 It definitely stands for now. 11 00:00:35.679 --> 00:00:38.200 I mean it, it was kind of said with humor, 12 00:00:38.280 --> 00:00:41.759 but like it's valid, especially today's topic, because I'm really 13 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:47.880 interested in getting perspective from you and Jillian welcome to show, Jillian, 14 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:52.320 how are you? I'm interested in getting feedback from y'all 15 00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:55.920 on this topic because it's it's a valid thing, and 16 00:00:55.960 --> 00:00:58.079 I don't think I'm the first person to ever face this, 17 00:00:58.359 --> 00:01:02.719 So I think that's the beauty of having platforms like 18 00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:05.920 this is to get perspective from people that you may 19 00:01:05.920 --> 00:01:07.760 not otherwise be able to get perspective from. 20 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:12.319 So I'm not a therapist, so if you have medical 21 00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:14.280 needs there, I'm gonna have to definitely refer you to 22 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:15.640 licens passion. 23 00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:16.719 Right. 24 00:01:17.719 --> 00:01:19.840 I was kind of assuming here I was going to 25 00:01:19.879 --> 00:01:21.840 walk out of here with a prescription for something sweet. 26 00:01:21.879 --> 00:01:23.359 Are you telling me that that's not true? 27 00:01:24.760 --> 00:01:26.120 Well, I think there are a bunch of things that 28 00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:28.159 are now legal in your state, So you know, maybe 29 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:33.200 just your look around your local city municipality and all 30 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:35.959 your problems could be solved by a short, little walk. 31 00:01:36.799 --> 00:01:40.760 Dude, that is an understatement for where I live. They 32 00:01:40.879 --> 00:01:44.319 have totally embraced the new laws in this town. 33 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:48.439 They haven't in New Hampshire. To drive a whole like, 34 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:53.840 you know, thirty minutes to Massachusetts before I can make 35 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:55.079 those dreams come true. 36 00:01:55.560 --> 00:01:58.280 That's horrible, Jillyan. A thirty minute drive. 37 00:01:58.599 --> 00:02:02.319 Yeah, something. It's not even more like, you know, one 38 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:04.239 of my sisters and my mom's lives, so it's not 39 00:02:04.319 --> 00:02:07.120 like I'm not there all the time. Anyways, it's a struggle. 40 00:02:08.280 --> 00:02:11.960 When I lived in Arizona, they had an app called 41 00:02:12.039 --> 00:02:17.560 weed Maps that was basically Uber for weed delivery, and 42 00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:20.159 you would go and I never use it, but you 43 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:22.599 could go into the app place your order and then 44 00:02:22.680 --> 00:02:25.360 some time later some drug dealers showed up at your 45 00:02:25.400 --> 00:02:27.000 house and dropped off what you ordered. 46 00:02:27.879 --> 00:02:29.439 I've never, I've never used it, but I have. 47 00:02:33.719 --> 00:02:36.479 No I actually advised a guy who was creating a 48 00:02:37.000 --> 00:02:43.319 competitor to that company. And yeah, anyway, on today today's topic, 49 00:02:43.400 --> 00:02:49.800 before we just get banned from the show for conversations, Yeah, 50 00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:56.960 so today's topic is is it possible to hire a 51 00:02:57.159 --> 00:03:00.520 candidate who is too good for your team? And so 52 00:03:00.719 --> 00:03:04.199 let me set the stage here a little bit. It's 53 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:07.159 funny because a few episodes back, I was talking about 54 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:10.000 how I think I'm just kind of tired of writing 55 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:13.639 infrastructure code and looking for something different. And now all 56 00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:16.080 of a sudden, I'm the manager of the team here 57 00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:21.520 and I'm backfilling the position that I vacated on the team, 58 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:27.319 and we're interviewing candidates. And one of the candidates we 59 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:31.960 interviewed is just an absolute rock star. And I hate 60 00:03:31.960 --> 00:03:34.639 to put that term out, but he really is. He's 61 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:39.479 very passionate about DevOps. He understands the concepts and the principles, 62 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:43.400 and he knows how it relates to the business and 63 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:48.479 the value that his trade brings to making the company 64 00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:54.960 a more successful company. And his skills are not to 65 00:03:55.039 --> 00:03:59.000 put my exist team down, but they're like top notch skills, 66 00:04:00.039 --> 00:04:03.240 and so one of the guys on my team who 67 00:04:04.039 --> 00:04:07.800 did a technical interview with him, came back to me 68 00:04:07.879 --> 00:04:10.319 and said, I'm concerned that this guy might be too 69 00:04:10.439 --> 00:04:15.000 good for our team, because if we bring him on, 70 00:04:16.079 --> 00:04:18.920 it's going to challenge everyone else on the team to 71 00:04:19.160 --> 00:04:23.120 bring up their own skill set, because the average skill 72 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:24.680 set is going to be raised now. And I didn't 73 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:28.839 really think that's a horrible thing. It's always good to 74 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:33.160 have that kind of pressure, I think and it. But 75 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:35.879 the other point he made I thought was really valid. 76 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:39.639 Maybe this is the wrong company for that candidate, because 77 00:04:39.720 --> 00:04:42.399 we are an early stage startup and a lot of 78 00:04:42.480 --> 00:04:46.519 our processes aren't well defined, and sometimes we have to 79 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:50.720 go forward with things that aren't processes because it's more 80 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:54.480 important to ship the product and get feedback from our 81 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:59.839 customers than it is to build a long term, scalable 82 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:03.240 solution for it, you know, because in reality and startup world, 83 00:05:03.680 --> 00:05:06.199 you may launch your product and it may fail miserably. 84 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:08.720 So you don't want to invest time and effort up 85 00:05:08.800 --> 00:05:13.480 front building this super robust pipeline for something that's never 86 00:05:13.639 --> 00:05:19.839 gonna see you know, long term, long term production use. 87 00:05:20.839 --> 00:05:23.920 And so that was the part of his feedback that 88 00:05:24.079 --> 00:05:27.399 really stood out to me, like, what if we brought 89 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:32.480 this guy on and he was starting to regret his 90 00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:37.639 decision because we don't have enough opportunities to really take 91 00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:40.360 full advantage of his skills. And so that's what I 92 00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:42.519 wanted to talk about today. Is it possible to hire 93 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:46.079 someone who's too good for your team? And should you 94 00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:48.920 do it anyway or should you pass on that candidate. 95 00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:53.040 I'm not sure that it's possible to hire somebody that's 96 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:56.240 too good, because I know, I mean, I know for 97 00:05:56.360 --> 00:05:59.319 myself personally, I don't like to be the best person 98 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:02.399 doing the things that I'm doing. I always like working 99 00:06:02.480 --> 00:06:04.519 with a variety of people, and other people are always 100 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:07.560 going to be like there's always going to be somebody 101 00:06:07.600 --> 00:06:10.639 who knows more than I do. And maybe that's maybe 102 00:06:10.680 --> 00:06:13.120 that's a personal preference that I just really enjoy working 103 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:17.439 on interdisciplinary teams. But I've worked on enough teams where 104 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:21.120 everybody thinks like that to make me think it. Maybe 105 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:23.560 it's a commonality among tech people that we all like 106 00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:25.399 to be learning new things all the time, and that's 107 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:28.560 part of what brings us to tech. So I would 108 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:31.839 say from there, probably not. And I feel like this 109 00:06:32.040 --> 00:06:35.000 is maybe a conversation that could be had with the team. 110 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:37.040 You could ask them like, hey, you know, how would 111 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:41.800 how would you feel about this? Like with your existing team. 112 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:47.639 I mean, just go ask them, right, I see you 113 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:49.600 thinking heavily over Warren, What are your thoughts? 114 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:53.240 Oh, there's so many things here, and I'm trying to 115 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:57.439 limit myself to whatever the most important aspects are. So 116 00:06:58.639 --> 00:07:00.639 what I heard I actually the first thing that you 117 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:04.959 brought up of raising the sort of bar of expectation 118 00:07:05.160 --> 00:07:08.040 of what people's levels are. I mean, I feel like 119 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:11.959 the most one of the biggest mistakes is incorrectly leveling someone. 120 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:15.800 So if you have the spot, if you can afford 121 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:19.959 hiring a principal engineer over a staff engineer, even though 122 00:07:19.959 --> 00:07:22.519 you thought you only needed a staff engineer, it's fine 123 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:24.199 as long as they get that label and they get 124 00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:28.439 the commiserate compensation for it, whatever that is in the environment. 125 00:07:28.879 --> 00:07:31.120 If you're not doing that, then there's going to be 126 00:07:31.199 --> 00:07:35.079 sort of a mismatch of expectations between what the individual 127 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:38.639 wants and what they could potentially get elsewhere. I think 128 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:41.519 one of the mistakes we tell ourselves is that, oh, 129 00:07:41.639 --> 00:07:43.680 you know, uh, maybe in a couple of years they 130 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:46.160 would leave but I mean in the tech industry, they're 131 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:47.439 going to Whoever you're going to hire is likely going 132 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:49.920 to leave in a couple years anyway, So I often 133 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:51.800 like to throw that out. Also, I think one of 134 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:55.199 the worst things to hear, ever, is you're too qualified 135 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:57.439 for the role we want, And like, I don't think. 136 00:07:57.360 --> 00:07:58.720 That's great feedback for the candidate. 137 00:07:58.759 --> 00:08:01.839 I mean, especially in whatever market they're in or whatever 138 00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:04.519 their circumstances is, they may be willing to take a 139 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:07.000 pay cut for some period of time because of their 140 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:10.399 own personal situation. And I think it would just like 141 00:08:10.480 --> 00:08:13.560 if I was in that situation and that scenario, it 142 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:15.800 would just really suck for me to be told that 143 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:18.240 over and over again by lots of companies. Think literally, 144 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:21.160 I will like clean toilets, but no one will hire 145 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:23.439 me because they think I'm overqualified. It's like, please, like 146 00:08:23.519 --> 00:08:25.600 I just I just want to do something else, and 147 00:08:25.920 --> 00:08:28.800 I don't think that's a good reason. So I do 148 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:32.200 want to be careful about the bringing the level up 149 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:35.600 of the team. While it is good to push the 150 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:38.159 team members, you have to look at the culture of 151 00:08:38.399 --> 00:08:41.399 the individual team members and what their values are, because 152 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:43.519 it can be a real struggle for them if they 153 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:45.519 don't feel like they're prepared or the kind of person 154 00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:47.440 that wants to be pushed there, like you could be 155 00:08:47.559 --> 00:08:50.919 driving a wedge within your team, and I have seen 156 00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:53.759 that where there is a lot of pressure that people 157 00:08:53.840 --> 00:08:55.799 may put on themselves because they now feel like they're 158 00:08:55.840 --> 00:08:58.840 in a higher quality team in some way and they 159 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:01.279 have to meet that expectation, and maybe you start changing 160 00:09:01.320 --> 00:09:03.759 your guidelines on what performance looks like because of that. 161 00:09:03.960 --> 00:09:08.399 So I think being cognizant of those changes that will 162 00:09:08.480 --> 00:09:11.399 happen because of that person is important as well, so 163 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:14.000 that for me starts to fall into fit right, you know, 164 00:09:14.200 --> 00:09:16.240 what changes are they going to impact in the team. 165 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:19.960 If they're really too good, then of course they're good enough, 166 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:23.320 so that's never the problem. But you did say something 167 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:27.000 that I did catch on, which is that maybe you're 168 00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:30.720 looking for a pioneer and they're more of a town planner, 169 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:33.759 which means they're not necessarily a fit for the type 170 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:35.799 of work that you want to do. They're actually not 171 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:38.879 qualified in that way because what they care about is 172 00:09:38.919 --> 00:09:40.799 different for what you need. Now there is a question 173 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:42.240 of whether or not they want to work in that 174 00:09:42.360 --> 00:09:44.039 mode or they are able to work in that mode. 175 00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:47.360 But it's like, let's say you're hiring for a JavaScript 176 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:49.799 or Python, those are the languages you use, and someone 177 00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:52.360 comes in with C Sharp and Java experience and they're like, Oh, 178 00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:53.720 I'm super excited to you see. 179 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:54.240 Sharp in Java. 180 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:56.840 If you're going to go in the direction of changing 181 00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:59.639 your language, that's fine, But if you expect them to change, 182 00:09:59.679 --> 00:10:02.080 they have to sort of want to change. And so 183 00:10:02.919 --> 00:10:05.399 I do wonder whether or not the criteria you have 184 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:09.200 in your job description is matches their expectations, or whether 185 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:10.720 or not there's an area to dive down there. 186 00:10:10.759 --> 00:10:11.399 So I think there's a. 187 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:14.320 Couple of different angles that are all worth spending more 188 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:15.399 time thinking about. 189 00:10:17.080 --> 00:10:19.399 Yeah, that's a good point. Like our job description is 190 00:10:21.159 --> 00:10:24.639 it's kind of your average, run of the mill infrastructure 191 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:28.919 DevOps type job description. It doesn't really elaborate a whole 192 00:10:29.000 --> 00:10:32.240 lot on where they would fit into the team and 193 00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:34.879 where they fit into the company. And I think that's 194 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:37.960 a really good distinction there. 195 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:40.039 That makes it. 196 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:44.080 Makes it a bit easier to say whether or not 197 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:46.360 this person is a good candidate because now you're not 198 00:10:46.440 --> 00:10:49.799 talking Now you're not focusing on their devop skills, You're 199 00:10:49.840 --> 00:10:53.919 focusing on their role within the team and within the company. 200 00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:56.759 Yeah, I mean skills there are five out of five, 201 00:10:56.919 --> 00:10:58.360 and maybe there are six out of five for what 202 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:01.480 you're evaluating, great like, you know, pay a lot more 203 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:04.639 attention to those other areas, and maybe you want someone 204 00:11:04.720 --> 00:11:06.360 Maybe the question you're asking yourself is would it be 205 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:08.039 better to have someone that's four out of five or 206 00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:10.840 three out of five? But are aligned better with those 207 00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:13.440 other requirements that we have for the culture or the 208 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:16.120 personal values or the area that they'll be working on, 209 00:11:16.279 --> 00:11:18.840 or the processes that we have in place, and that 210 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:21.960 person may not be a match there. So I think 211 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:25.440 we're very quick, especially in the technology or engineering areas, 212 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:29.440 to believe that the skills level is the driving factor 213 00:11:29.720 --> 00:11:32.120 for our performance and whether or not we should hire. 214 00:11:32.200 --> 00:11:35.519 But often when I do interviews, we break it up 215 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:38.159 into a bunch of different areas that are like the 216 00:11:38.200 --> 00:11:42.360 short term coding expertise, systems designed, whether or not it's 217 00:11:42.360 --> 00:11:44.960 a cultural fit, and how they deal with certain individual 218 00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:47.799 problems what we usually call a behavioral interview, and so 219 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:50.919 they can absolutely pass some of those and fail other ones, 220 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:54.960 and then it's about comparing along those each individual access, 221 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:58.320 but together across each of the candidates so. 222 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:01.399 How do you decide or how like, when you're creating 223 00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:05.440 a new role, how do you what your thought process 224 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:10.440 look like for determining what the non technical requirements are 225 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:11.159 for that role. 226 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:15.279 So a lot of it comes from expectations of the 227 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:17.480 company and the culture that you have. For instance, it 228 00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:20.840 could be super detail oriented, is really important for you, 229 00:12:21.000 --> 00:12:24.360 I mean me personally at our company, myself, the executive 230 00:12:24.360 --> 00:12:26.960 team we are, we really do care about getting things 231 00:12:27.000 --> 00:12:29.879 done to say correctly in our regards. So high quality 232 00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:33.200 is really really critical, especially with the product, the expectations 233 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:36.159 of our customers engaging with them, and so we look 234 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:39.320 to see people are going to achieve that. And often 235 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:42.399 that means for us generalists that have death in one 236 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:46.399 particular area that is important to round out the team. 237 00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:48.559 So maybe we have someone that is deep in understanding 238 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:51.519 infrastructure in aws. Maybe we have someone that's deep in 239 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:57.639 specifically the security knowledge around on device management, credentials, et cetera. 240 00:12:57.759 --> 00:13:01.159 There's someone with quality. You know, there's a lot of different. 241 00:13:00.919 --> 00:13:02.679 Avenues that you go down here, people that want to 242 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:05.240 reach out to customers and handle support there. And so 243 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:08.639 it's very obvious for us when we're missing some area 244 00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:11.360 and we want to find someone whose depth is in 245 00:13:12.000 --> 00:13:15.360 that category, and that's how we sort of define the 246 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:18.120 job description, and then we play the game. We release 247 00:13:18.159 --> 00:13:20.279 the same job description three or four times with different 248 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:23.799 titles because they may have had different titles at other companies. 249 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:28.840 So you ab test your job descriptions and your job ads. Yeah, 250 00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:33.720 for sure, Fresh Line, we're still going to go. 251 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:37.240 Back to I think some of these issues could be 252 00:13:37.320 --> 00:13:40.320 a conversation, maybe these ones with the candidate. I do 253 00:13:40.519 --> 00:13:42.759 kind of agree that the you know, if we're going 254 00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:46.519 to say there's a spectrum between startups and enterprise between 255 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:49.720 how like I suppose wild West the processes are, whether 256 00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:52.360 they exist, how fluid they are, that kind of thing. 257 00:13:53.279 --> 00:13:54.559 I would still say a lot of that is a 258 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:57.600 personality fit. Like it just seems like some personalities lend 259 00:13:57.639 --> 00:14:00.120 themselves better to one type or the other. But I 260 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:03.679 have trouble believing that like a season tech professional, which 261 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:07.720 this person clearly is right, that he wouldn't know that 262 00:14:07.879 --> 00:14:10.159 already and be aware of the fact that your company 263 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:12.360 is a startup and that maybe it's more on the 264 00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:16.759 wild West side of the spectrum versus the enterprise E side, 265 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:19.879 and probably wouldn't have applied if that wasn't something that 266 00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:22.240 he was interested in, right, Like, presumably this is somebody 267 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:23.360 with some choices in life. 268 00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:24.120 Yeah. 269 00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:26.000 Now, I think one thing I've already learned from this 270 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:28.039 conversation with you is I do need to go have 271 00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:32.120 another conversation with this person and make sure that I've 272 00:14:32.320 --> 00:14:35.200 clearly explained to the best of my ability the environment 273 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:39.519 that they're coming into and where we're doing well and 274 00:14:39.679 --> 00:14:42.759 where we may not be at the level of some 275 00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:45.200 of the things they've done in the past, just to 276 00:14:45.559 --> 00:14:48.639 make sure that that doesn't come as a surprise to them, 277 00:14:48.679 --> 00:14:51.720 and if they were to accept an offer, that they're 278 00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:55.000 accepting it with all the knowledge that I can share. 279 00:14:55.279 --> 00:14:57.639 Up friend, Yeah, I mean I. 280 00:14:57.720 --> 00:14:59.279 Feel like I want to disagree with Jillian. 281 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:05.840 Uh yeah, yeah, Yeah, I mean I don't know much 282 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:08.679 angle to take care honestly. I mean, I think realistically, 283 00:15:08.720 --> 00:15:10.559 when you turn down the candidate, you want to have 284 00:15:10.679 --> 00:15:13.879 a better answer than you're too qualified for sure, So 285 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:16.679 how you get there is sort of up to you. 286 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:19.080 The journey you want to figure out. I think you 287 00:15:19.159 --> 00:15:21.879 can definitely turn down a candidate because oh, they really 288 00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:24.559 want the job, but we say we don't think it's 289 00:15:24.559 --> 00:15:27.559 a fit for you and it's not a fit for 290 00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:30.519 you because even though you don't know, or subconsciously consciously 291 00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:32.519 you don't know, but subconsciously you need something different. 292 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:34.600 You may be looking for a job. 293 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:36.960 It may seem great to you, but looking at your 294 00:15:37.000 --> 00:15:40.000 experience or what you actually care about, we know that 295 00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:42.759 you're not going to be happy in I want. 296 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:45.279 To find that response to patronizing. Like, I mean, I 297 00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:48.279 get it, like it's your's you know, you're the hiring person. 298 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:51.279 You can hire or not based on whatever reasons you want. 299 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:54.120 But I personally would find that response to be very patronizing. 300 00:15:55.879 --> 00:15:57.720 I mean, the truth is a lot of people. 301 00:15:57.840 --> 00:15:59.879 It's the response. It's the response doesn't really. 302 00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:05.320 Matter well, I mean it's difficult to articulate in a 303 00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:10.360 way which is clear and gives them comfort that they 304 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:13.000 aren't the right person for that role and to be 305 00:16:13.080 --> 00:16:16.480 also happy about it. So yeah, I mean, there are 306 00:16:16.519 --> 00:16:18.559 lots of things you can say, but I don't think 307 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:19.679 they're like saying that. 308 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:23.039 You're there, you're overqualified. You know that that for me 309 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:26.120 is at the very low bar, uh, you know, end 310 00:16:26.159 --> 00:16:26.799 of the spectrum. 311 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:29.360 I definitely try to try to avoid saying that you're 312 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:31.559 not a fit for us here because what we need 313 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:34.480 don't doesn't match what you're currently giving us. You know, 314 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:36.039 these are the areas that we think that you're not 315 00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:38.600 a match for. I would share that before the end 316 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:41.480 of the interview process, like give them the opportunity to 317 00:16:41.559 --> 00:16:44.679 either justify or come around. And one way that I 318 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:48.200 do that is say, hey, like, we're happy to get 319 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:50.240 you on board if you think that our evaluation is 320 00:16:50.279 --> 00:16:53.200 wrong here, but we're going to be looking at this 321 00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:55.840 aspect and hoping that we're you know, we're wrong, that 322 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:59.399 you're correct, and we get through this and you know, 323 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:02.000 right now we're super hopeful, but we can take that step. 324 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:04.480 We can do the experiment, get you on board, and 325 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:06.519 then see how it plays out and maybe everything will 326 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:09.079 be fine. You know, it's a risk both ways. And 327 00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:13.480 the thing I say a lot is we collectively are 328 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:16.559 really bad at interviewing people, like not just not my company, 329 00:17:16.640 --> 00:17:19.720 but you know, like every company. And because we can't 330 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:22.720 really know someone in four to ten hours of an 331 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:24.839 interview process whether or not they're going to be effective 332 00:17:24.880 --> 00:17:27.519 long term, actual evidence is going to tell us that. 333 00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:31.720 So we're just trying to reduce the damage the wrong 334 00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:35.599 decision will make on on our team on other individuals 335 00:17:35.640 --> 00:17:39.480 on our company, and you don't, like you don't need 336 00:17:39.559 --> 00:17:41.960 to necessarily do that upfront, you know, three three month 337 00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:46.039 probation period, being explicit about that. Then you know, constant 338 00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:49.240 feedback on what's going on so that they know what 339 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:51.599 where their areas are that they're missing, and like you said, 340 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:53.240 will like potentially self select out. 341 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:58.039 Yeah. And one thing I agree with you completely on 342 00:17:58.279 --> 00:18:02.640 is like the risk sponsor you're overqualified is not adequate. 343 00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:06.160 Like this person they've invested time into this process too, 344 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:10.160 and so I owe them like a clear set of 345 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:15.519 reasons why we would think that they're not the right person. 346 00:18:16.359 --> 00:18:20.200 And if I can't articulate that to them, then I 347 00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:23.079 have to really I haven't done my job well. 348 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:25.000 I think it's nice to you do that. By the way, 349 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:27.440 Like I've been applying for jobs lately, and a couple 350 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:29.799 of them were just like, now, which what with somebody else? 351 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:34.319 Which I mean, I guess it's something. It's a response anyways, 352 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.000 but it would be nice to get some more details. 353 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:41.000 I think that's of the industry, Like the state of 354 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:43.839 the industry is, like you feel fortunate if you get 355 00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:46.960 a rejection email. So many of them just you never 356 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:47.920 hear anything at all. 357 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:53.160 Well, yeah, so I think that's definitely the first step. 358 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:55.000 I mean, what I hear a lot in some of 359 00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:58.960 the communities I'm in is people are worried about potential 360 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:03.680 legal repercussion, or they have specific requirements or guidance from 361 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:08.359 their HR department or head of people to not explain 362 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:14.119 what the issues are because kendidate can I don't know, hypothetically, sue, 363 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:18.759 I mean, it doesn't really happen though, it's you know, 364 00:19:18.920 --> 00:19:21.680 you're protecting yourself from something that is almost for sure 365 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:25.279 not the case. So I think just trying to actually 366 00:19:25.319 --> 00:19:27.680 be a human being and be clear about what the 367 00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:31.119 problem is and potentially give someone the opportunity to explain 368 00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:34.640 themselves is what I definitely would recommend. 369 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:37.160 Yeah, for sure, because a lot of this, a lot 370 00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:41.240 of our current decision in this particular instance, is based 371 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:45.240 on some assumptions from previous conversations, and so it's worth 372 00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:49.799 going back and saying, hey, here's what we're thinking and 373 00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:52.799 then maybe learning something different, something that didn't come out 374 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:54.039 in the original set of interviews. 375 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:57.039 Well, I mean i'd even take it further, like how 376 00:19:57.160 --> 00:19:59.880 confident are you in your own interview process and in 377 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.400 your interviewers that are running that process to be gauging 378 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:07.480 the information you get back as qualified signals on those 379 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:11.000 different avenues. I mean, I know there are certain things 380 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:12.759 that I don't I'm not great at picking up on, 381 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:14.880 and so I need my other interviewers to help me 382 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:17.440 out there some things that maybe the question was phrased 383 00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:20.039 in a way that the candidate wasn't expecting and or 384 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:22.799 wasn't prepared on a certain avenue, and then you maybe 385 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:26.119 double down on whatever they said there which doesn't match 386 00:20:26.160 --> 00:20:28.240 their reality or how they actually think in that moment, 387 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:32.240 you know, misunderstanding that wasn't qualified. And I think those 388 00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:34.359 are the sorts of things where you just end up 389 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:36.599 getting yourself into a bad situation where you're making a 390 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:40.759 decision based off of in perfect data both in volume 391 00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:43.839 but also in your collection process. And so you know, 392 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:45.759 if you err on the side of well, no, actually, 393 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:47.240 we've been doing this for a very long time. We're 394 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:49.440 very comfortable in who the interviewers are and the collect 395 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:51.599 and the questions are asking and how they evaluate those. 396 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:54.200 Then you know you can be comfortable and the answers 397 00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:54.680 you get back. 398 00:20:55.000 --> 00:20:58.200 But if it's I've see it the biggest problem that 399 00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:00.480 I usually see in the interviewing is that the interviewers 400 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:02.400 are usually just thrown together. They don't have a lot 401 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:06.119