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Speaker 1: For those of you tuning in, this is a little

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bit of a rough start, but it is the start

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of the Adventures in DevOps podcast episode number whatever. I

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don't even know what number were on anymore. But today's topic,

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it's a little DevOps therapy session. Joining me in the

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therapy room today, Warren Perrad to Born, Hey, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, I h you say therapy as sort of a

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joke there, but I frequently not as a joke, say

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the tea and my executive title.

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Speaker 3: It definitely stands for now.

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Speaker 1: I mean it, it was kind of said with humor,

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but like it's valid, especially today's topic, because I'm really

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interested in getting perspective from you and Jillian welcome to show, Jillian,

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how are you? I'm interested in getting feedback from y'all

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on this topic because it's it's a valid thing, and

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I don't think I'm the first person to ever face this,

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So I think that's the beauty of having platforms like

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this is to get perspective from people that you may

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not otherwise be able to get perspective from.

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Speaker 2: So I'm not a therapist, so if you have medical

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needs there, I'm gonna have to definitely refer you to

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licens passion.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 1: I was kind of assuming here I was going to

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walk out of here with a prescription for something sweet.

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Are you telling me that that's not true?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think there are a bunch of things that

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are now legal in your state, So you know, maybe

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just your look around your local city municipality and all

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your problems could be solved by a short, little walk.

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Speaker 1: Dude, that is an understatement for where I live. They

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have totally embraced the new laws in this town.

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Speaker 4: They haven't in New Hampshire. To drive a whole like,

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you know, thirty minutes to Massachusetts before I can make

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those dreams come true.

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Speaker 1: That's horrible, Jillyan. A thirty minute drive.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, something. It's not even more like, you know, one

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of my sisters and my mom's lives, so it's not

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like I'm not there all the time. Anyways, it's a struggle.

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Speaker 1: When I lived in Arizona, they had an app called

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weed Maps that was basically Uber for weed delivery, and

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you would go and I never use it, but you

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could go into the app place your order and then

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some time later some drug dealers showed up at your

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house and dropped off what you ordered.

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Speaker 3: I've never, I've never used it, but I have.

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Speaker 1: No I actually advised a guy who was creating a

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competitor to that company. And yeah, anyway, on today today's topic,

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before we just get banned from the show for conversations, Yeah,

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so today's topic is is it possible to hire a

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candidate who is too good for your team? And so

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let me set the stage here a little bit. It's

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funny because a few episodes back, I was talking about

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how I think I'm just kind of tired of writing

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infrastructure code and looking for something different. And now all

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of a sudden, I'm the manager of the team here

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and I'm backfilling the position that I vacated on the team,

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and we're interviewing candidates. And one of the candidates we

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interviewed is just an absolute rock star. And I hate

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to put that term out, but he really is. He's

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very passionate about DevOps. He understands the concepts and the principles,

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and he knows how it relates to the business and

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the value that his trade brings to making the company

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a more successful company. And his skills are not to

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put my exist team down, but they're like top notch skills,

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and so one of the guys on my team who

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did a technical interview with him, came back to me

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and said, I'm concerned that this guy might be too

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good for our team, because if we bring him on,

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it's going to challenge everyone else on the team to

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bring up their own skill set, because the average skill

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set is going to be raised now. And I didn't

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really think that's a horrible thing. It's always good to

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have that kind of pressure, I think and it. But

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the other point he made I thought was really valid.

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Maybe this is the wrong company for that candidate, because

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we are an early stage startup and a lot of

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our processes aren't well defined, and sometimes we have to

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go forward with things that aren't processes because it's more

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important to ship the product and get feedback from our

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customers than it is to build a long term, scalable

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solution for it, you know, because in reality and startup world,

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you may launch your product and it may fail miserably.

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So you don't want to invest time and effort up

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front building this super robust pipeline for something that's never

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gonna see you know, long term, long term production use.

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And so that was the part of his feedback that

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really stood out to me, like, what if we brought

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this guy on and he was starting to regret his

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decision because we don't have enough opportunities to really take

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full advantage of his skills. And so that's what I

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wanted to talk about today. Is it possible to hire

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someone who's too good for your team? And should you

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do it anyway or should you pass on that candidate.

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure that it's possible to hire somebody that's

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too good, because I know, I mean, I know for

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myself personally, I don't like to be the best person

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doing the things that I'm doing. I always like working

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with a variety of people, and other people are always

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going to be like there's always going to be somebody

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who knows more than I do. And maybe that's maybe

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that's a personal preference that I just really enjoy working

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on interdisciplinary teams. But I've worked on enough teams where

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everybody thinks like that to make me think it. Maybe

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it's a commonality among tech people that we all like

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to be learning new things all the time, and that's

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part of what brings us to tech. So I would

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say from there, probably not. And I feel like this

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is maybe a conversation that could be had with the team.

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You could ask them like, hey, you know, how would

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how would you feel about this? Like with your existing team.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just go ask them, right, I see you

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thinking heavily over Warren, What are your thoughts?

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Speaker 2: Oh, there's so many things here, and I'm trying to

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limit myself to whatever the most important aspects are. So

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what I heard I actually the first thing that you

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brought up of raising the sort of bar of expectation

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of what people's levels are. I mean, I feel like

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the most one of the biggest mistakes is incorrectly leveling someone.

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So if you have the spot, if you can afford

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hiring a principal engineer over a staff engineer, even though

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you thought you only needed a staff engineer, it's fine

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as long as they get that label and they get

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the commiserate compensation for it, whatever that is in the environment.

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If you're not doing that, then there's going to be

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sort of a mismatch of expectations between what the individual

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wants and what they could potentially get elsewhere. I think

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one of the mistakes we tell ourselves is that, oh,

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you know, uh, maybe in a couple of years they

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would leave but I mean in the tech industry, they're

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going to Whoever you're going to hire is likely going

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to leave in a couple years anyway, So I often

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like to throw that out. Also, I think one of

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the worst things to hear, ever, is you're too qualified

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for the role we want, And like, I don't think.

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Speaker 3: That's great feedback for the candidate.

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Speaker 2: I mean, especially in whatever market they're in or whatever

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their circumstances is, they may be willing to take a

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pay cut for some period of time because of their

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own personal situation. And I think it would just like

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if I was in that situation and that scenario, it

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would just really suck for me to be told that

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over and over again by lots of companies. Think literally,

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I will like clean toilets, but no one will hire

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me because they think I'm overqualified. It's like, please, like

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I just I just want to do something else, and

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I don't think that's a good reason. So I do

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want to be careful about the bringing the level up

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of the team. While it is good to push the

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team members, you have to look at the culture of

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the individual team members and what their values are, because

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it can be a real struggle for them if they

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don't feel like they're prepared or the kind of person

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that wants to be pushed there, like you could be

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driving a wedge within your team, and I have seen

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that where there is a lot of pressure that people

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may put on themselves because they now feel like they're

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in a higher quality team in some way and they

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have to meet that expectation, and maybe you start changing

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your guidelines on what performance looks like because of that.

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So I think being cognizant of those changes that will

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happen because of that person is important as well, so

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that for me starts to fall into fit right, you know,

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what changes are they going to impact in the team.

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If they're really too good, then of course they're good enough,

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so that's never the problem. But you did say something

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that I did catch on, which is that maybe you're

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looking for a pioneer and they're more of a town planner,

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which means they're not necessarily a fit for the type

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of work that you want to do. They're actually not

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qualified in that way because what they care about is

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different for what you need. Now there is a question

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of whether or not they want to work in that

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mode or they are able to work in that mode.

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But it's like, let's say you're hiring for a JavaScript

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or Python, those are the languages you use, and someone

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comes in with C Sharp and Java experience and they're like, Oh,

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I'm super excited to you see.

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Speaker 3: Sharp in Java.

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Speaker 2: If you're going to go in the direction of changing

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your language, that's fine, But if you expect them to change,

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they have to sort of want to change. And so

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I do wonder whether or not the criteria you have

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in your job description is matches their expectations, or whether

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or not there's an area to dive down there.

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Speaker 3: So I think there's a.

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Speaker 2: Couple of different angles that are all worth spending more

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time thinking about.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good point. Like our job description is

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it's kind of your average, run of the mill infrastructure

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DevOps type job description. It doesn't really elaborate a whole

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lot on where they would fit into the team and

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where they fit into the company. And I think that's

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a really good distinction there.

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Speaker 3: That makes it.

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Speaker 1: Makes it a bit easier to say whether or not

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this person is a good candidate because now you're not

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talking Now you're not focusing on their devop skills, You're

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focusing on their role within the team and within the company.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean skills there are five out of five,

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and maybe there are six out of five for what

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you're evaluating, great like, you know, pay a lot more

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attention to those other areas, and maybe you want someone

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Maybe the question you're asking yourself is would it be

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better to have someone that's four out of five or

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three out of five? But are aligned better with those

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other requirements that we have for the culture or the

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personal values or the area that they'll be working on,

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or the processes that we have in place, and that

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person may not be a match there. So I think

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we're very quick, especially in the technology or engineering areas,

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to believe that the skills level is the driving factor

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for our performance and whether or not we should hire.

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But often when I do interviews, we break it up

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into a bunch of different areas that are like the

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short term coding expertise, systems designed, whether or not it's

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a cultural fit, and how they deal with certain individual

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problems what we usually call a behavioral interview, and so

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they can absolutely pass some of those and fail other ones,

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and then it's about comparing along those each individual access,

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but together across each of the candidates so.

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Speaker 1: How do you decide or how like, when you're creating

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a new role, how do you what your thought process

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look like for determining what the non technical requirements are

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for that role.

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Speaker 2: So a lot of it comes from expectations of the

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company and the culture that you have. For instance, it

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could be super detail oriented, is really important for you,

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I mean me personally at our company, myself, the executive

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team we are, we really do care about getting things

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done to say correctly in our regards. So high quality

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is really really critical, especially with the product, the expectations

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of our customers engaging with them, and so we look

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to see people are going to achieve that. And often

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that means for us generalists that have death in one

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particular area that is important to round out the team.

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So maybe we have someone that is deep in understanding

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infrastructure in aws. Maybe we have someone that's deep in

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specifically the security knowledge around on device management, credentials, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: There's someone with quality. You know, there's a lot of different.

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Speaker 2: Avenues that you go down here, people that want to

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reach out to customers and handle support there. And so

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it's very obvious for us when we're missing some area

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and we want to find someone whose depth is in

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that category, and that's how we sort of define the

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job description, and then we play the game. We release

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the same job description three or four times with different

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titles because they may have had different titles at other companies.

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Speaker 1: So you ab test your job descriptions and your job ads. Yeah,

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for sure, Fresh Line, we're still going to go.

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Speaker 4: Back to I think some of these issues could be

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a conversation, maybe these ones with the candidate. I do

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kind of agree that the you know, if we're going

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to say there's a spectrum between startups and enterprise between

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how like I suppose wild West the processes are, whether

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they exist, how fluid they are, that kind of thing.

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I would still say a lot of that is a

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personality fit. Like it just seems like some personalities lend

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themselves better to one type or the other. But I

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have trouble believing that like a season tech professional, which

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this person clearly is right, that he wouldn't know that

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already and be aware of the fact that your company

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is a startup and that maybe it's more on the

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wild West side of the spectrum versus the enterprise E side,

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and probably wouldn't have applied if that wasn't something that

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he was interested in, right, Like, presumably this is somebody

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with some choices in life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now, I think one thing I've already learned from this

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conversation with you is I do need to go have

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another conversation with this person and make sure that I've

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clearly explained to the best of my ability the environment

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that they're coming into and where we're doing well and

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where we may not be at the level of some

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of the things they've done in the past, just to

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make sure that that doesn't come as a surprise to them,

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and if they were to accept an offer, that they're

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accepting it with all the knowledge that I can share.

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Up friend, Yeah, I mean I.

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Speaker 3: Feel like I want to disagree with Jillian.

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Speaker 2: Uh yeah, yeah, Yeah, I mean I don't know much

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angle to take care honestly. I mean, I think realistically,

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when you turn down the candidate, you want to have

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a better answer than you're too qualified for sure, So

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how you get there is sort of up to you.

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The journey you want to figure out. I think you

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can definitely turn down a candidate because oh, they really

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want the job, but we say we don't think it's

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a fit for you and it's not a fit for

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you because even though you don't know, or subconsciously consciously

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you don't know, but subconsciously you need something different.

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Speaker 3: You may be looking for a job.

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Speaker 2: It may seem great to you, but looking at your

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experience or what you actually care about, we know that

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you're not going to be happy in I want.

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Speaker 4: To find that response to patronizing. Like, I mean, I

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get it, like it's your's you know, you're the hiring person.

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You can hire or not based on whatever reasons you want.

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But I personally would find that response to be very patronizing.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the truth is a lot of people.

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Speaker 4: It's the response. It's the response doesn't really.

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Speaker 2: Matter well, I mean it's difficult to articulate in a

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way which is clear and gives them comfort that they

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aren't the right person for that role and to be

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also happy about it. So yeah, I mean, there are

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lots of things you can say, but I don't think

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they're like saying that.

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Speaker 3: You're there, you're overqualified. You know that that for me

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is at the very low bar, uh, you know, end

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of the spectrum.

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Speaker 2: I definitely try to try to avoid saying that you're

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not a fit for us here because what we need

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don't doesn't match what you're currently giving us. You know,

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these are the areas that we think that you're not

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a match for. I would share that before the end

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of the interview process, like give them the opportunity to

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either justify or come around. And one way that I

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do that is say, hey, like, we're happy to get

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you on board if you think that our evaluation is

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wrong here, but we're going to be looking at this

321
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aspect and hoping that we're you know, we're wrong, that

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you're correct, and we get through this and you know,

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right now we're super hopeful, but we can take that step.

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We can do the experiment, get you on board, and

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then see how it plays out and maybe everything will

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be fine. You know, it's a risk both ways. And

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the thing I say a lot is we collectively are

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really bad at interviewing people, like not just not my company,

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but you know, like every company. And because we can't

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really know someone in four to ten hours of an

331
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interview process whether or not they're going to be effective

332
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long term, actual evidence is going to tell us that.

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So we're just trying to reduce the damage the wrong

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decision will make on on our team on other individuals

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on our company, and you don't, like you don't need

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to necessarily do that upfront, you know, three three month

337
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probation period, being explicit about that. Then you know, constant

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feedback on what's going on so that they know what

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where their areas are that they're missing, and like you said,

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will like potentially self select out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And one thing I agree with you completely on

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is like the risk sponsor you're overqualified is not adequate.

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Like this person they've invested time into this process too,

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and so I owe them like a clear set of

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reasons why we would think that they're not the right person.

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And if I can't articulate that to them, then I

347
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have to really I haven't done my job well.

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Speaker 4: I think it's nice to you do that. By the way,

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Like I've been applying for jobs lately, and a couple

350
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of them were just like, now, which what with somebody else?

351
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Which I mean, I guess it's something. It's a response anyways,

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but it would be nice to get some more details.

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Speaker 1: I think that's of the industry, Like the state of

354
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the industry is, like you feel fortunate if you get

355
00:18:43,839 --> 00:18:46,960
a rejection email. So many of them just you never

356
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hear anything at all.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, so I think that's definitely the first step.

358
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I mean, what I hear a lot in some of

359
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the communities I'm in is people are worried about potential

360
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legal repercussion, or they have specific requirements or guidance from

361
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their HR department or head of people to not explain

362
00:19:08,759 --> 00:19:14,119
what the issues are because kendidate can I don't know, hypothetically, sue,

363
00:19:14,839 --> 00:19:18,759
I mean, it doesn't really happen though, it's you know,

364
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you're protecting yourself from something that is almost for sure

365
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not the case. So I think just trying to actually

366
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be a human being and be clear about what the

367
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problem is and potentially give someone the opportunity to explain

368
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themselves is what I definitely would recommend.

369
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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, because a lot of this, a lot

370
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of our current decision in this particular instance, is based

371
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on some assumptions from previous conversations, and so it's worth

372
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going back and saying, hey, here's what we're thinking and

373
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then maybe learning something different, something that didn't come out

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in the original set of interviews.

375
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Speaker 2: Well, I mean i'd even take it further, like how

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confident are you in your own interview process and in

377
00:20:00,039 --> 00:20:03,400
your interviewers that are running that process to be gauging

378
00:20:03,519 --> 00:20:07,480
the information you get back as qualified signals on those

379
00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:11,000
different avenues. I mean, I know there are certain things

380
00:20:11,039 --> 00:20:12,759
that I don't I'm not great at picking up on,

381
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and so I need my other interviewers to help me

382
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,440
out there some things that maybe the question was phrased

383
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,039
in a way that the candidate wasn't expecting and or

384
00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,799
wasn't prepared on a certain avenue, and then you maybe

385
00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:26,119
double down on whatever they said there which doesn't match

386
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,240
their reality or how they actually think in that moment,

387
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,240
you know, misunderstanding that wasn't qualified. And I think those

388
00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,359
are the sorts of things where you just end up

389
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:36,599
getting yourself into a bad situation where you're making a

390
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,759
decision based off of in perfect data both in volume

391
00:20:40,799 --> 00:20:43,839
but also in your collection process. And so you know,

392
00:20:43,839 --> 00:20:45,759
if you err on the side of well, no, actually,

393
00:20:45,799 --> 00:20:47,240
we've been doing this for a very long time. We're

394
00:20:47,279 --> 00:20:49,440
very comfortable in who the interviewers are and the collect

395
00:20:49,519 --> 00:20:51,599
and the questions are asking and how they evaluate those.

396
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Speaker 3: Then you know you can be comfortable and the answers

397
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you get back.

398
00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:58,200
Speaker 2: But if it's I've see it the biggest problem that

399
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:00,480
I usually see in the interviewing is that the interviewers

400
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,400
are usually just thrown together. They don't have a lot

401
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,119
of experience interviewing. They may be technical and we're talking

402
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:09,559
about culture behavioral interviews here, whether or not they're a

403
00:21:09,559 --> 00:21:11,640
good fit long term for the company, they don't have

404
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,039
that experience, and sometimes the interviews come down to like

405
00:21:14,079 --> 00:21:17,400
a panel interview where you have two plus people interviewing

406
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,240
the candidate, which is just like the.

407
00:21:19,559 --> 00:21:21,400
Speaker 3: Numbers are not in the candidate's favor right.

408
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,559
Speaker 2: It can be a sort of viewed as the hostile environment,

409
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,759
and they're getting interrogated, and the questions don't often even

410
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,599
give you a good signal there of what's happening, and

411
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,200
so like all those things can contribute to getting a

412
00:21:34,279 --> 00:21:37,400
confusing response, of which then you really just need to

413
00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:40,480
keep diving down into further to qualify that.

414
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that describes our situation completely when you think

415
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:49,400
about it, like in reality. Yeah, because I'm the new

416
00:21:49,519 --> 00:21:53,640
manager to the team, and I've made a lot of

417
00:21:53,799 --> 00:21:57,640
changes to the team since I've taken over, So there's

418
00:21:59,799 --> 00:22:03,440
you know, there's some uncertainty across the team there, and

419
00:22:03,559 --> 00:22:09,400
then the we don't interview many people period at this company,

420
00:22:10,079 --> 00:22:18,480
so we don't really have a strong historical past or

421
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,680
historical record of how we've done and interviews in the past.

422
00:22:22,319 --> 00:22:25,359
And then let's add one more plot twist to it.

423
00:22:27,279 --> 00:22:29,920
We're an early stage startup that's still trying to find

424
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,960
out what we do for a living. So there's it's,

425
00:22:34,079 --> 00:22:35,920
you know, shifting sands.

426
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,079
Speaker 3: For sure. It's never too late to try to figure

427
00:22:39,079 --> 00:22:40,279
out what you want to do with your life.

428
00:22:40,839 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 1: Right I'm fifty four and still trying to answer that question.

429
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,440
I'm feeling some pressure, though, I'm not gonna lie.

430
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 4: I think one of these days we should have a

431
00:22:51,799 --> 00:22:56,079
show on making the switch from a purely technical role

432
00:22:56,240 --> 00:23:00,839
to not Is that something I keep hearing about, maybe

433
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,359
because it's my own personal struggle, But anyways, next Jef,

434
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:03,880
next shop.

435
00:23:04,559 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 2: No, I mean, I think that's an interesting topic. I

436
00:23:07,319 --> 00:23:10,920
actually have found that now for the current state of

437
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,200
the tech economy, it's going to be less of a

438
00:23:13,319 --> 00:23:17,079
question because companies are cutting out what they call middle

439
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:21,200
management team leads and are having and going to a

440
00:23:21,279 --> 00:23:25,240
quote unquote flat organization, which is just a made up nonsense,

441
00:23:25,759 --> 00:23:32,519
and they're less concerned about having canonical responsibilities that match

442
00:23:32,599 --> 00:23:35,119
what we would have historically called career people management.

443
00:23:36,799 --> 00:23:39,279
Speaker 4: That's the pendulum that's going to swing back, though maybe

444
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,200
not like fully to the extent that it was maybe

445
00:23:41,279 --> 00:23:43,440
let's say, like before COVID. Maybe it was too bloaded

446
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:44,079
before COVID.

447
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:44,559
Speaker 3: But I just.

448
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,519
Speaker 4: I don't know. I've worked with too many engineering teams.

449
00:23:48,559 --> 00:23:50,319
I feel like there needs to be like some level

450
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:51,559
of adult supervision there.

451
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 1: So the approach I've been taking with my team and

452
00:23:54,920 --> 00:24:00,440
to change changes I've made is putting more responsible and

453
00:24:00,559 --> 00:24:04,880
authority on the senior engineers, saying I don't need to

454
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:06,599
be in a meeting as a manager. I don't need

455
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,160
to be in a meeting unless there's a problem. You

456
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:15,119
own this product, go meet with the team that builds

457
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,319
it and figure out how to get it done, and

458
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,640
make the decisions that you know how to make. You've

459
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,000
been doing this a long time. You know what to do,

460
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,160
you know what not to do, and just go do it,

461
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,039
and if you're wrong, we'll fix it. Nobody's going to die.

462
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I really like the mentality of turning

463
00:24:32,519 --> 00:24:36,039
the ship around and pushing the delegating down to where

464
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,079
the decision should be, which is the information that the

465
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,160
people have, so how you select who should be making

466
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,920
a decision along with them having the competence the capability

467
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:48,880
to actually do that. And I think those two are

468
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,400
the pillars that David Marque actually talks about there. And

469
00:24:52,839 --> 00:24:55,160
you know, not everyone is at that point, but trying

470
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:56,960
to get them, like as a leader, trying to get

471
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,559
them to that point is like the stepping stone to

472
00:24:59,559 --> 00:25:01,400
be thought of. And a lot of people are too

473
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,400
short term focused. So like in the perspective of we

474
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,880
need to hire someone, consumably there's some short term, some midterm,

475
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,759
and some long term problems that you're looking out for

476
00:25:12,279 --> 00:25:14,440
that you think someone needs to come in and support

477
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,160
that because your current team can't handle it in some way.

478
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,359
Not this like made up we need to scale, but

479
00:25:19,559 --> 00:25:22,799
realistically we are going to fail in this particular way,

480
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,559
and that's where we need someone to save us. And

481
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,559
obviously the short term mindset not the best one. But

482
00:25:28,839 --> 00:25:30,960
we can hire someone for three to six months to

483
00:25:31,039 --> 00:25:33,319
handle the short term problem. How are we going to

484
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,680
hire someone, you know, six months, three year, a couple

485
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,960
of years to handle the medium term problem. So I

486
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,039
mean you keep swapping up people, for sure, but I

487
00:25:40,079 --> 00:25:43,319
think that's sort of how I personally engage interviews when

488
00:25:43,519 --> 00:25:46,279
creating a job description and trying to find that person.

489
00:25:46,319 --> 00:25:48,480
So maybe the person you've got, like you said, maybe

490
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,640
they're the perfect person six six years down the road,

491
00:25:51,799 --> 00:25:53,000
or you know what they're going to set up for

492
00:25:53,039 --> 00:25:55,519
six years down the road, maybe they're not really the

493
00:25:55,759 --> 00:25:59,640
startup person. I know when people start companies started moving

494
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,839
to the room situation. One of the problems that we

495
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:06,039
had initially is a large pool of our potential candidates

496
00:26:06,559 --> 00:26:09,680
had never worked in a remote environment, and we had

497
00:26:09,759 --> 00:26:13,160
been remote even before the pandemic, And realistically a big

498
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:14,880
problem is a lot of people are like, oh, remote,

499
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,200
that sounds great, and I'm like, okay, but you know,

500
00:26:17,279 --> 00:26:20,680
it's different working in a starufference. It's different in some

501
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,920
meaningful way. And people say, oh, yeah, whatever, startup, that's fine.

502
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,400
You know, maybe it's less certainty. I'm like, okay, but

503
00:26:27,799 --> 00:26:30,000
you don't really understand what less certainty means in a

504
00:26:30,079 --> 00:26:35,119
day to day environment, Like you may subconsciously understand that, oh.

505
00:26:35,079 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 3: The job may not be here in two years, but

506
00:26:37,759 --> 00:26:38,720
that actually means.

507
00:26:38,559 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 2: How you work on things is fundamentally different than working

508
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,160
in a different stage of a company with different particular problems.

509
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, the example I used for that is, like, let's

510
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,920
define uncertainty. Uncertainty means you get a call in the

511
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,319
middle of the day from your wife who wasn't able

512
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,000
to buy grocery store groceries at the store and had

513
00:26:59,039 --> 00:27:02,519
to put them all back because your paycheck bounced because

514
00:27:02,559 --> 00:27:05,960
your employer was out of money and didn't feel that

515
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:11,359
it was needed to be shared across everyone who thought

516
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,640
they just got paid. That's that's the level of uncertainty

517
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,279
at startups, just for odd, random examples out of nowhere.

518
00:27:20,799 --> 00:27:26,079
Speaker 4: Yeah, Alex, your groceries are not other people's top priorities.

519
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,720
They are your top priority, though, so kind to balance

520
00:27:28,799 --> 00:27:31,839
those things. I mean it before made an interesting point

521
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,240
earlier that, like, you know, you can't hire people short term.

522
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:35,599
Speaker 3: I know.

523
00:27:35,759 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 4: I've worked for a few companies that almost everybody starts

524
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,440
off as a contractor, and that's kind of their way

525
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,200
of making sure that you're like a cultural fit, and

526
00:27:43,319 --> 00:27:46,119
then you know, if they like you, they hire you

527
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,279
full time. I've also been places where contracts were yearly

528
00:27:49,839 --> 00:27:52,119
and so they just never they never fired like anybody,

529
00:27:52,319 --> 00:27:55,680
like people did like truly bananas, things right just off

530
00:27:55,759 --> 00:27:59,480
the wall. Bizarro behavior. Nobody ever got fired because of

531
00:27:59,559 --> 00:28:02,680
the year the contract would expire and then occument and

532
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,519
then they just wouldn't rehire you. So there's like, there's

533
00:28:05,559 --> 00:28:07,599
plenty of ways around that, although of course that's not

534
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:09,240
what you want to happen, right. You want to hire

535
00:28:09,279 --> 00:28:11,440
the right fit and they're there for a couple of

536
00:28:11,519 --> 00:28:13,680
years with the duration of the project or that kind

537
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:13,960
of thing.

538
00:28:15,519 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 2: I mean, you brought up a really interesting sort of

539
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,200
parallel here with the how does the employment contract look like? Uh,

540
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:23,839
how what is the payment schedule?

541
00:28:24,039 --> 00:28:24,079
Speaker 1: Like?

542
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,119
Speaker 2: Uh, what is the legal aspect behind the engagement? And

543
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,160
unfortunately these seem like they're more coupled than I would

544
00:28:32,279 --> 00:28:35,480
like just from a you know, individual mindset perspective. If

545
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,640
I'm on a contract, oh that will likely end. Companies

546
00:28:38,759 --> 00:28:41,160
should not just not renew the contract. There are so

547
00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:44,079
many contractors that I know that get to the end

548
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,039
of their you know, six month or year contract, like

549
00:28:47,119 --> 00:28:48,559
I have no idea if I'm going to have a

550
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:50,920
job in two months, like, and I'm not going to

551
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,160
find out until the year rolls over, and then I'm

552
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:55,640
going to be told whether or not I have any

553
00:28:55,799 --> 00:28:58,240
Like that's just a terrible situation to be in, and

554
00:28:58,440 --> 00:28:59,519
I think that way.

555
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 4: There's people who don't feel that way.

556
00:29:01,519 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: Like really well, I mean, for instance, when we hire

557
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,640
people out of say some Eastern European countries, it's more

558
00:29:10,759 --> 00:29:14,119
common for us to use a employment contract that is

559
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,720
between businesses, just because of how local employment laws work

560
00:29:17,799 --> 00:29:21,359
and how they're actually better for everyone for the individually

561
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,279
set up as a company. So we use individual like

562
00:29:24,559 --> 00:29:28,000
corporate contracts there, but we don't treat them as contractors.

563
00:29:28,039 --> 00:29:31,319
So like, how the legal setup is is completely different

564
00:29:31,359 --> 00:29:34,759
than the expectations on how they communicate or engage with

565
00:29:34,799 --> 00:29:38,119
the team, how the culture works, and like I think

566
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,480
that there is a tendency to couple those together, but

567
00:29:40,559 --> 00:29:43,640
they absolutely don't need to be that way. So yeah,

568
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,000
I mean, if you're scared because you know every contract

569
00:29:46,039 --> 00:29:48,519
you have is going to potentially end, like I feel

570
00:29:48,519 --> 00:29:50,480
like your employer can be doing a much better job

571
00:29:50,759 --> 00:29:54,480
letting you know way ahead of time. Like I would say,

572
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:55,960
if you're on a contract and you're in one of

573
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,680
these situations and you don't have the personal expectation that

574
00:29:58,759 --> 00:30:00,680
at the end of the contract going to be over,

575
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,240
I'd add into the contract like will automatically renew less

576
00:30:04,279 --> 00:30:06,880
in the three months leading up to, like to the

577
00:30:07,119 --> 00:30:07,880
end of the contract.

578
00:30:08,079 --> 00:30:10,559
Speaker 3: It is is explicitly you know, canceled.

579
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 2: And then you sort of bake in a little bit

580
00:30:13,759 --> 00:30:20,240
of safety like mental safety psychology there for yourself so

581
00:30:20,319 --> 00:30:21,960
that you don't end up in a situation where you're

582
00:30:22,359 --> 00:30:24,920
basically in limbo as far as what your future job.

583
00:30:24,839 --> 00:30:25,279
Speaker 4: Is going to be.

584
00:30:27,039 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's great advice for anyone who does contract work.

585
00:30:29,839 --> 00:30:34,480
Add that clause in there, because that's it's a recurring

586
00:30:34,559 --> 00:30:36,960
thing that I've heard over the years. You know, hey,

587
00:30:37,039 --> 00:30:39,720
my contract's going to expire, and no one's really saying

588
00:30:39,799 --> 00:30:44,839
anything or answering questions. So your role, like Gillian said,

589
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,200
your responsibility is to put groceries on the table. That's

590
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:54,920
not your employer or contract partner's responsibility. So you're just

591
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,039
looking out for yourself when you add that clause to

592
00:30:57,119 --> 00:30:57,720
your contract.

593
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,319
Speaker 4: Yeah. So, I mean I've been doing the contracting thing

594
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,759
pretty much full time. I mean, presumably I have an escort,

595
00:31:04,839 --> 00:31:06,799
but like basically I just have like a bunch of

596
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,359
like little jobs that are that are that are all

597
00:31:09,519 --> 00:31:12,119
very flexible, right, and I have added those kind of

598
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:14,359
things to contracts. It depends on, like the company that

599
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,000
I'm working with, how much of the contract is sort

600
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,480
of boiler plate that I'm not going to like. I

601
00:31:19,519 --> 00:31:21,119
don't know. I'm not going to go hire a lawyer

602
00:31:21,279 --> 00:31:23,119
just just to deal with this stuff, right Like, it's

603
00:31:23,319 --> 00:31:25,640
it's just me and I don't even really work full

604
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,599
time most of the time. But I'm also concerned by

605
00:31:28,799 --> 00:31:30,759
how I would ever enforce something like that.

606
00:31:32,519 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can never come up.

607
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,039
Speaker 4: I just go get another contract.

608
00:31:38,039 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 2: I mean those of us that are in a fortunate

609
00:31:40,799 --> 00:31:43,240
position that you know, that's what we can do in

610
00:31:43,319 --> 00:31:47,480
those circumstances. Often the best advice I would give here

611
00:31:47,799 --> 00:31:50,359
is make it so that you don't like If you're

612
00:31:50,359 --> 00:31:52,960
in that situation, it's not the end of the world.

613
00:31:53,079 --> 00:31:55,440
So I don't know if that means charging more, that

614
00:31:55,519 --> 00:31:58,400
means start charging at the beginning of the cycle, using

615
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,039
a retainer based So when I do consulting, I usually

616
00:32:02,039 --> 00:32:03,880
do a retainer at the beginning of the month, which

617
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:05,920
I don't care what happens at the end of the month.

618
00:32:06,279 --> 00:32:07,279
Speaker 3: It's I've already been.

619
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,319
Speaker 2: Paid for whatever happens there, and I know whether or

620
00:32:09,319 --> 00:32:12,000
not to start working or whatnot. And then maybe increase

621
00:32:12,039 --> 00:32:14,960
that even more, uh, based off to let yourself have

622
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,480
the freedom to deal with those anomalous events where you're

623
00:32:19,519 --> 00:32:22,799
not you don't have the transparency with that particular client.

624
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,519
So yeah, for sure, like you're not gonna get into

625
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,079
a legal battle at all there, Like you're not going

626
00:32:30,119 --> 00:32:31,680
to go through that process in most cases.

627
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,079
Speaker 3: So I'm totally with you.

628
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point. A little bit

629
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,920
changing topics here, but totally worth doing. Because of the

630
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,759
number of people in our industry who do contract work,

631
00:32:42,799 --> 00:32:46,359
and that comes down to setting the proper hourly rate

632
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,319
for your services. A lot of people jump to the conclusion, oh,

633
00:32:51,799 --> 00:32:53,920
I want to make one hundred thousand dollars a year,

634
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,400
so I'm going to charge fifty bucks an hour, right,

635
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,480
And that's true. That half works, but that doesn't really

636
00:33:01,559 --> 00:33:05,880
take into account everything that you are doing as a contractor.

637
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:10,000
Because as a contractor, for every hour that you spend

638
00:33:10,759 --> 00:33:13,359
working on the problem you are hired to solve, you're

639
00:33:13,359 --> 00:33:18,400
going to spend another hour doing the financial aspects, the accounting,

640
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,759
the book keeping, the taxes and all that kind of stuff.

641
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,759
And then there's another hour spent on top of that

642
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,799
spent marketing looking for your next client. So for every

643
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,160
hour that you work, there's two unpaid hours in there

644
00:33:34,599 --> 00:33:36,720
of just running your own business, because that's what you

645
00:33:36,839 --> 00:33:39,200
are as a contractor. And so when you set your

646
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,960
hourly rate, you want to get paid for that time too.

647
00:33:42,119 --> 00:33:44,720
So your hourly rate needs to reflect all the work

648
00:33:45,319 --> 00:33:49,519
that is not hands on the keyboard, building Docker files

649
00:33:49,599 --> 00:33:51,200
or writing terraform infrastructure.

650
00:33:52,559 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, you really don't bill as many hours

651
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,279
as maybe you think you will, like, Oh, it's going

652
00:33:57,359 --> 00:33:59,039
to be great, I'm going to bill all these hours

653
00:33:59,079 --> 00:34:01,079
and make all this money, and then you realize everything

654
00:34:01,079 --> 00:34:04,279
else you have to do to actually keep the ball rolling.

655
00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:07,680
So if you're starting off whatever you think your hourly

656
00:34:07,759 --> 00:34:10,559
rate should be, probably just double it. I'm just just

657
00:34:10,599 --> 00:34:12,280
gonna go with just double it right away.

658
00:34:13,079 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 3: Yeah already. Then.

659
00:34:16,079 --> 00:34:17,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, do you feel like you have a good plan

660
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:18,880
of attack? Well, what are you gonna what are you

661
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:20,280
gonna do? When you Oh?

662
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: Absolutely not. I'd be scared shitless if I felt like

663
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:23,159
I had a good plan.

664
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 4: Like, surely there's something I'm missing.

665
00:34:27,599 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 3: No, I do.

666
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,159
Speaker 1: I think A couple of key takeaways I got from

667
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:34,280
here is I need to really take a step back

668
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,559
and think about what role this person has in my

669
00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:40,880
team and define that so that everyone on my team

670
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,440
who's interviewing them and the candidate themselves has a clear

671
00:34:44,559 --> 00:34:49,119
set of expectations of what this job entails outside of

672
00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:50,920
writing terrorform code.

673
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:52,760
Speaker 4: And then.

674
00:34:54,119 --> 00:35:01,679
Speaker 1: Have another put another step in the process, or maybe

675
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,079
just do this when one off or whatever, But I

676
00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:07,119
need to have another conversation with this candidate and really

677
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:13,199
let them know what we're thinking, why we have those concerns,

678
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,760
and give them an opportunity to address those specifically.

679
00:35:19,039 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 2: You also have an opportunity for a sort of risk

680
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,079
evaluation for your business, like how bad would it be

681
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,079
if you hired the candidate even knowing Like let's assume

682
00:35:29,119 --> 00:35:31,679
all those things were true regarding the candidate and the

683
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,719
potential problems, Like what is the actual impact for the business,

684
00:35:35,079 --> 00:35:37,599
Like if you how bad would it be like in

685
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,400
three months, six months, I'll till you had to fire them, Like,

686
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:42,920
you know, is it likely that they would cause the

687
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:44,440
startup to actually fold?

688
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 3: You know in that way?

689
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 2: Because like I feel like we don't do a great

690
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,119
job sort of evaluating what the risk is when we talk,

691
00:35:53,199 --> 00:35:58,400
you know, with anything honestly interviews, buying SaaS, software.

692
00:35:58,159 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 3: Pulling in libraries, et cetera. You know, we don't really

693
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:01,679
do a great job doing that.

694
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 2: We usually have a lot of fear up front about

695
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,679
making the right decision, but then we don't really think

696
00:36:07,679 --> 00:36:11,679
about our recourse as much if it is the wrong one.

697
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:15,559
Speaker 1: That's a really good point. That's one that we don't

698
00:36:15,599 --> 00:36:20,719
talk about near often enough, like the risk of it.

699
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,599
And I'm glad to hear you say like SaaS evaluation,

700
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,079
because that's a pet peeve of mine and I feel

701
00:36:28,159 --> 00:36:30,280
like I'm the only person who has that pet peeve,

702
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,960
you know, Like you use a SaaS provider and you

703
00:36:34,079 --> 00:36:36,840
send them a bunch of your data and then they

704
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,760
get a security breach and now all of your customer's

705
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,679
data is out in the wild because of something they did.

706
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,800
And like, the absolute best case scenario you can hope

707
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:51,079
for in that situation is that you get an at

708
00:36:51,199 --> 00:36:53,679
mentioned in the tweet from their CTO when they say

709
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,559
how sorry there are, and what steps they're going to

710
00:36:55,599 --> 00:36:58,679
do to make sure it ever ever, ever happens again. Like,

711
00:36:58,760 --> 00:36:59,760
that's the best case scenario.

712
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 2: So we put eslays in our contracts to handle repayment

713
00:37:06,559 --> 00:37:09,800
to customers if we there is like a serious problem.

714
00:37:10,559 --> 00:37:14,639
Usually it's around up time specifically. But you know, honestly,

715
00:37:14,679 --> 00:37:16,719
I see a lot of people on the opposite side

716
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,880
of the spectrum that are so heavily evaluating which SaaS

717
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,519
provider to go with. They spend months and months trying

718
00:37:24,519 --> 00:37:27,440
to pick one, And honestly, the answer is like, forget,

719
00:37:27,519 --> 00:37:29,880
You're never gonna know what the impact is going to

720
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:31,800
be until after it happens. You're not going to be

721
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,679
able to predict that. Forget it, Like, just you're better

722
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,920
off just those two months that you wasted like tens

723
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,360
of thousands of dollars doing that evaluation. It didn't doesn't

724
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,039
amend to anything. Just pick one, go forward, see what happens,

725
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,679
and then pivot if you need to, because you're not

726
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,239
gonna be able to figure out what the risk is.

727
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,480
There are companies out there with tens of thousands, hundreds

728
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,880
of thousands of engineers who have all the certifications in

729
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,480
the world trying to prove that they're secure, and they're

730
00:37:57,519 --> 00:38:00,119
the ones that are the one are posting oops, we

731
00:38:00,199 --> 00:38:04,719
had another security breach yet again. So I mean, you're

732
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,400
not going to be able to evaluate that upfront, do you?

733
00:38:08,639 --> 00:38:11,599
Speaker 1: This is way off tangent, but I'm curious, do you

734
00:38:12,119 --> 00:38:17,239
accept negotiations in contracts regarding your slas, Like you say, hey,

735
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,199
we promised this with our SLA. This is our commitment

736
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,599
to you. If a potential customer comes back and says,

737
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,119
that's all cool, but we want this SLA instead, do

738
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:29,679
you entertain those negotiations.

739
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,679
Speaker 2: The answer is no, but for two reasons. One, our

740
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,880
default SLA is like incredibly high. We are four and

741
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,519
a half nine's by default is what we put everywhere.

742
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,920
There's no like super enterprise plan where we promise on

743
00:38:46,079 --> 00:38:49,639
even higher SLA, so people can't really request that, nor

744
00:38:49,639 --> 00:38:52,559
would they need to. And the truth is that just

745
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,480
promising a higher SLA like you can't even really deliver

746
00:38:55,599 --> 00:38:57,679
on that. The SLA is a made up number.

747
00:38:58,519 --> 00:38:58,639
Speaker 3: You know.

748
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 2: We can use our slis and are whatever our internal

749
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,360
objectives are to decide how much we want to be up.

750
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,400
But realistically you'd have to have a fundamentally different product

751
00:39:08,519 --> 00:39:10,719
in order to reach the next level of SLA. It

752
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,280
doesn't really make sense to promise some customers a low

753
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,960
SLA and other customers a high SLA. The ones who

754
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,320
want to high SLA are the ones that are paying

755
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,159
you lots of money. So you're gonna end up paying

756
00:39:21,199 --> 00:39:22,840
out a lot of money if you have a problem,

757
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,039
even a little problem. So the ones that don't pay

758
00:39:26,039 --> 00:39:27,880
you anything don't really care what your ESLA is. You're

759
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:29,880
not gonna end up paying them out a lot anyway,

760
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,199
even if you gave them a higher SLA. So it

761
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:33,920
doesn't really make any sense for us to have that

762
00:39:34,159 --> 00:39:37,880
disparity and make some companies who are building critical products

763
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:39,880
but don't pay us a lot of money feel like

764
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:43,400
they're second class customers for us.

765
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,559
Speaker 3: So we don't offer different scales like that.

766
00:39:46,039 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 2: I mean, if someone wanted us to have a higher SLA,

767
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,039
I do the never split the difference perspective. This increases

768
00:39:53,119 --> 00:39:55,280
the risk for us, so you will pay us more

769
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,519
money upfront for that SLA.

770
00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:58,039
Speaker 1: For sure.

771
00:39:58,159 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 2: I have no problem increasing that SOLE with a higher

772
00:40:01,079 --> 00:40:03,960
upfront cost, and we for sure will make those trade offs.

773
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 3: Usually it's like, do you actually really need that? No, No,

774
00:40:07,599 --> 00:40:08,000
you don't.

775
00:40:08,079 --> 00:40:11,599
Speaker 2: I mean your own software isn't even that high realistically,

776
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,760
so I don't know why you expect some vendor to

777
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:15,000
be even higher than that.

778
00:40:16,039 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 1: Dude, I love your insights. I love throwing questions like

779
00:40:19,599 --> 00:40:24,159
that at you, because like your like the ven diagram

780
00:40:24,559 --> 00:40:28,199
thing of your business skills and your technical skills is

781
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:28,800
pretty cool.

782
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,639
Speaker 3: I'm bad at both, That's what I'm hearing.

783
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 1: But maybe you're bad at both, but the overlap is great.

784
00:40:39,159 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 3: You know.

785
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 2: It's interesting because like I was a very technical person.

786
00:40:42,039 --> 00:40:45,719
I studied engineering, and then the jobs that I got

787
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:50,000
put into were very customer focused technical support, not so

788
00:40:50,199 --> 00:40:54,079
hard software development or working with the people on the

789
00:40:54,159 --> 00:40:56,920
shop floor and manufacturing and building software for them. So

790
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,199
I was always uniquely in a situation where or I

791
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,920
had to fully understand what my customers actually cared about,

792
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:05,599
my users actually cared about, and less about the technology.

793
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,440
And I told myself that lie that every engineer that

794
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,639
didn't really have a job tells themselves, which is I

795
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,880
just want difficult technical problems to solve, Like, no, you don't.

796
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,280
What you want is problems that you think are technically difficult,

797
00:41:17,639 --> 00:41:19,920
but you feel like you were able to solve them

798
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,280
pretty easily and then patch yourself on the back. I

799
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,360
mean that's what everyone wants, like perceive that it's difficult,

800
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,920
but then able to actually solve it, and after a

801
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,760
while you're like, I actually don't want complex, difficult problems

802
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,639
to solve, because if I have those, that means something

803
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:37,639
is fundamentally broken with what we're.

804
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:39,679
Speaker 1: Doing for sure. I think that was one of the

805
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,320
big insights that helped me on my career, is that

806
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:44,960
no one gives a shit about the terraform code I write.

807
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:48,679
What they care about is that the terraform code I

808
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,719
write allows them to ten x their customer base without

809
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:54,320
increasing operating costs.

810
00:41:54,679 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 4: That's why I like working with scientists, because like, it's

811
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,519
a nice public experience and that I know, Oh, I

812
00:42:00,639 --> 00:42:02,159
know for a fact, if they could get rid of

813
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,639
me and do this and like excel on their laptops,

814
00:42:05,679 --> 00:42:08,400
they would, they absolutely would. They would push me out

815
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,920
the door, like and if I'm really lucky, I might

816
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:12,840
get like a fruit basket or something. As I'm being

817
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,920
pushed out. I would be on so fast that it

818
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,599
would just be remarkable. So it's good. It's good to

819
00:42:19,639 --> 00:42:21,800
always know that that, if you know, if people could

820
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,079
solve the problems without technology, they would nobody cares about

821
00:42:25,159 --> 00:42:30,159
your elegantly abstracted uh Python classes or something. Good.

822
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 3: Good to know.

823
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:32,760
Speaker 1: All right, should we do some picks?

824
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:33,559
Speaker 3: Yeah?

825
00:42:33,639 --> 00:42:35,320
Speaker 1: Sure, all right, what'd you bring?

826
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:35,679
Speaker 3: Jillian?

827
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,039
Speaker 4: I forgot again. I had one. I was thinking about

828
00:42:40,079 --> 00:42:41,559
one during the week and I was like, this is

829
00:42:41,639 --> 00:42:44,719
going to be a great, a great pick for the show.

830
00:42:49,639 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 3: One.

831
00:42:50,159 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 4: I have a futon mattress that I bought from Amazon,

832
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,719
and that thing is great for yard naps. So I've

833
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,280
just been like throwing my tark outside and then putting

834
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,280
the Futon matt and then I just like lay around

835
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:04,920
on that thing all day. And it's great because it

836
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:09,639
is unseasonably warm for November in New Hampshire and it's

837
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,559
just it's like the best thing ever. I was dog

838
00:43:11,639 --> 00:43:14,039
sitting one day and the dog really appreciated it too.

839
00:43:14,159 --> 00:43:16,920
It was lots of fun, had friends over, They've taken

840
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:18,400
yard naps. It's been a good time.

841
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 1: Amazon Futon mattress for yard naps.

842
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, that's it.

843
00:43:24,199 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 4: That's the pick. It was great I ever spent.

844
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:31,079
Speaker 1: We have snow on the ground, so I'm not gonna

845
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,079
exercise that pick right now, but I'll check back the

846
00:43:34,159 --> 00:43:35,519
spring after things start.

847
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,639
Speaker 4: Warming up, and you know, springtime, you'll be there.

848
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 1: All right, Warren, what'd you bring?

849
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:41,280
Speaker 2: I feel like you can put the tarp on top

850
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:42,480
of the snow if it's not melting.

851
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,159
Speaker 1: I was thinking the temperature is probably more the limiting

852
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,199
factor than the snow, to be honest.

853
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 4: Well, if you have the futon, then you don't get cold,

854
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:53,519
so presumably I bought it.

855
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 1: It's cold everywhere out there, it's cold everywhere, not just

856
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:57,480
on the ground.

857
00:43:58,199 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 4: Okay, that's true, but that's what really makes you cold

858
00:44:00,519 --> 00:44:02,280
if you go camping, is like when you're laying on

859
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:04,960
the ground that it's the ground that's cold. So if

860
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,000
you have the mattress, then you have like a buffer

861
00:44:07,079 --> 00:44:08,039
between you and the cold.

862
00:44:09,159 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think I'm not quite climatized from Arizona for

863
00:44:12,519 --> 00:44:12,920
that yet.

864
00:44:13,599 --> 00:44:16,079
Speaker 4: Okay, you still need some time, huh yeah.

865
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:17,199
Speaker 3: Oh oh.

866
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 4: Then the other pick is that I got a heated

867
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:21,079
mattress pad. And this thing is great, This is like

868
00:44:22,039 --> 00:44:24,440
quite this might be better than the than the yard

869
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,400
mattress futon thing, it's very nice.

870
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,639
Speaker 2: I feel like the secret pick is both of those together.

871
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,639
First the tarp, then the mattress, then the heated mattress pad,

872
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,719
then then the futon, and then your goal.

873
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 4: Then yeah, that's it. That's like the perfect combination. That's

874
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:38,880
what I need.

875
00:44:39,519 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 1: So you can bundle it and create an Amazon affiliate

876
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:43,880
link and then just post that in the show notes,

877
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:45,320
I could.

878
00:44:48,159 --> 00:44:50,719
Speaker 4: You know, forget all these technical skills that I presumably have.

879
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,079
This could be the money making scheme of my.

880
00:44:54,159 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 1: Dreams, right, all right, what'd you bring? Yeah?

881
00:44:58,679 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 2: So, first statistic, which is just really shocking for me,

882
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,960
some research that had been completed recently shows us that

883
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:12,320
about zero point five percent of our brain matter is

884
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:17,360
now composed completely of plastics. Zero point five percent. I

885
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,719
mean that's that's like a ridiculously high number.

886
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:22,199
Speaker 3: Like this is just so high.

887
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 2: I can't believe I think the study the scientist was saying,

888
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,519
I even can't believe these words are coming out of

889
00:45:27,559 --> 00:45:29,519
my mouth right now, Like it's so shocking to have.

890
00:45:29,679 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 3: Read like what we actually discovered here that is just

891
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:32,840
so high.

892
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,800
Speaker 2: So like I don't have any I don't have any

893
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:38,800
real solutions for that other than, like, you know, stop

894
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,000
using plastic in every way, like everything you buy, just

895
00:45:42,199 --> 00:45:46,400
like cancel. But my pick is going to be something

896
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,159
that I started only recently a couple of years ago,

897
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,280
which is to help combat the forever chemicals that we

898
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,519
may consume from the baking papers and pans and whatever

899
00:45:57,559 --> 00:45:59,440
plastics are in the air that get into our lungs

900
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,760
and end up in our and our brain, and that's

901
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:07,280
a blood donation for sure. Like the medieval times they

902
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,159
had something, you know, blood letting. You'd go and get yourself,

903
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:13,559
drop some quarts of blood on the floor, some leaders

904
00:46:13,679 --> 00:46:16,079
and uh you know anything that's in there that needs

905
00:46:16,119 --> 00:46:18,119
to get out for sure. Well though, you know, you

906
00:46:18,159 --> 00:46:21,320
can donate your blood to a hospital or clinic that

907
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,559
absolutely needs it, uh, in case of some sort of emergency.

908
00:46:24,599 --> 00:46:25,519
Speaker 3: So it's a double win.

909
00:46:25,599 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 2: You get to remove some forever chemicals from your body

910
00:46:28,519 --> 00:46:31,320
that are likely going to be responsible for some part

911
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,280
of your eventual death, and and.

912
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 3: Also help the community out at the same time. Right on,

913
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:37,800
I like that?

914
00:46:38,519 --> 00:46:41,079
Speaker 4: Is that like a thing that works though, because your

915
00:46:41,159 --> 00:46:43,639
body is making new cells and new tissue and new

916
00:46:43,679 --> 00:46:47,239
everything all the time. Like the meat sack that is

917
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,480
you is not the meat sack that was you ten

918
00:46:49,559 --> 00:46:53,159
years ago, right, So does it actually get rid of

919
00:46:53,199 --> 00:46:56,639
the plastics or the forever chemicals if you're they're in

920
00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:00,559
your bloodstream like releasing blood but really blood?

921
00:47:00,639 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 3: Sure?

922
00:47:01,559 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 2: Well, some of us, about fifty percent of the population,

923
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:10,079
have a built in genetic strategy for constantly getting rid

924
00:47:10,159 --> 00:47:14,320
of blood, which includes whatever permanent chemicals.

925
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:15,639
Speaker 3: May be built up there.

926
00:47:16,079 --> 00:47:18,679
Speaker 2: But for sure, anything in your bloodstream that is there

927
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,199
is going to get removed. I mean, not a huge amount,

928
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,039
like one liter out of a small number, a small

929
00:47:24,039 --> 00:47:26,159
amount that actually exists in your body. But it's not

930
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:31,519
like your bone marrow is producing plastic based blood cells there.

931
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,840
So you are removing a volume of liquid which does

932
00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:38,159
contain in it forever chemicals that have no other way

933
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,519
out of your body because your body isn't filtering them out.

934
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:42,039
Speaker 3: Yeah.

935
00:47:42,039 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 1: I gave blood the other day and there was like

936
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:44,599
a Hershey's wrapper that came out.

937
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,039
Speaker 4: That's probably a lot of time blood streams as well.

938
00:47:49,199 --> 00:47:54,199
It's like just chocolate and candy and jump the shock amount.

939
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: All right, So my pick, I'm picking a book by

940
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:02,960
Timothy Leary and it's The Psychedelic Experience, a manual based

941
00:48:03,039 --> 00:48:05,360
on the Tibetan Book of the Dead, and it's been

942
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,920
really entertaining. I'm only about halfway through it, but it's

943
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:11,800
been super entertaining. The Tibetan Book of the Dead is

944
00:48:12,159 --> 00:48:17,639
a book I think about three thousand years old that

945
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,039
was used even though it's called the Tibetan Book of

946
00:48:20,079 --> 00:48:23,360
the Dead. It's a book about releasing the ego and

947
00:48:23,519 --> 00:48:28,000
learning how to live. But then Timothy Leary, who was

948
00:48:28,079 --> 00:48:31,960
famous in the sixties for the being one of the

949
00:48:32,079 --> 00:48:38,079
prominent figures of the psychedelic movement, he read that book

950
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,039
and then associated a lot of the things described in

951
00:48:41,119 --> 00:48:45,119
that book with psychedelic trips, and so then he wrote

952
00:48:45,199 --> 00:48:48,639
this book that ties the different stages of a psychedelic

953
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:55,360
trip to the different different stages that are described in

954
00:48:55,559 --> 00:48:58,840
the Tibetan Book of the Dead. And so I just

955
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:00,800
find it really fascinating. It was a cool read.

956
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 4: Did you read the book by the guy that went

957
00:49:03,039 --> 00:49:06,559
to South America and like had lots of trips for

958
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,360
DNA and was like all the psychedelic people knew about

959
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,760
DNA long before you know, Rosslyn Franklin or the people

960
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,400
who went along and imaged it. No is that I

961
00:49:17,519 --> 00:49:19,519
don't I don't remember the title now, but I'll try

962
00:49:19,599 --> 00:49:21,239
to get it for you because it's it's a very

963
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:23,559
it is a very entertaining read. It's a good time

964
00:49:24,239 --> 00:49:28,000
right on cool in Las Vegas, but with DNA it's

965
00:49:28,039 --> 00:49:29,719
great a right on.

966
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 1: All right, that's an episode. Thank you both for your input,

967
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:37,239
thank you for joining me on this show, and thank

968
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,480
you listeners for listening. Be sure and let us know

969
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:44,599
on all the different socials if you have comments, thoughts, input,

970
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,480
topic ideas, or want to be a guest. And with

971
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:50,719
all of that out of the way, i'll see y'all

972
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:51,159
next week.