1
00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:03,759
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecanana Show.

2
00:00:04,719 --> 00:00:08,119
Speaker 2: Hey, Dan Thomas, doing well man, Thanks for thanks for

3
00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:08,640
hosting me.

4
00:00:08,679 --> 00:00:13,519
Speaker 1: As always, of course I'm going to start something new here,

5
00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,359
don't really uh know, have an idea of how many

6
00:00:17,359 --> 00:00:19,640
episodes you have in mind for this, But this is

7
00:00:19,719 --> 00:00:24,920
a pretty big topic and a requested topic. So Operation Gladio.

8
00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:29,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's I suggested we play it by ear figuratively

9
00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,560
and literally and see how long it takes us to

10
00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:37,960
cover the material and not just what we consider and

11
00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,119
you know, a more than an adequate capacity, but that the

12
00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,679
subs like I want to hear about Ladio is one

13
00:00:44,679 --> 00:00:49,159
of these misunderstood things. You know, there's a great deal

14
00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:54,679
of brutality of a of a particular sort. I mean

15
00:00:54,679 --> 00:00:57,759
the Cold War. The Cold War was neither was a

16
00:00:57,759 --> 00:01:01,039
condition of neither war nor peace. So even behind the

17
00:01:01,119 --> 00:01:06,760
verbial lines of peace and divided Europe, you know, there

18
00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:13,000
was a certain callousness that that that bled into contemplation

19
00:01:13,159 --> 00:01:18,439
of what was not just necessary but also reasonable. You know,

20
00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:29,200
the moral metric shifted, okay, I mean obviously in in

21
00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,400
Southeast Asia, what was very ine, late bare was that

22
00:01:33,599 --> 00:01:37,959
you know, Okay, the face of modern warfare very much

23
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:47,280
reduces attrition to a to to you know, to a

24
00:01:47,879 --> 00:01:52,719
subjective goal. You know, that must be coded in the

25
00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:59,319
most contact terms possible and studied as to you know,

26
00:02:00,719 --> 00:02:06,480
the impactfulness on victory odds. You know that quite literally

27
00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:12,000
the manufacturer of human corpses facilitates or does not facilitate.

28
00:02:13,039 --> 00:02:18,039
But again too, you know, there were like peace didn't

29
00:02:18,039 --> 00:02:23,080
really reign anywhere in the Cold War that it was

30
00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:28,879
a contested battle space, and obviously Europe proper, you know,

31
00:02:30,039 --> 00:02:37,000
the the inner German border west, you know, thank god

32
00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,719
that didn't become an active battle space. But as I'm

33
00:02:39,719 --> 00:02:44,919
always citing, like William Odum, anyone who served, anyone who's

34
00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:52,479
deployed there, you know, on either side, would relay that

35
00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,879
like these were not peace conditioned. That felt like being

36
00:02:54,879 --> 00:02:58,240
at war. You know, it was not remotely like any

37
00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:04,520
other you know, peace time posting. And people look at

38
00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:10,000
something like Operation Gladi. Oh, they it's a gross affront,

39
00:03:10,039 --> 00:03:15,080
I guess, you know, not just to their not not

40
00:03:15,199 --> 00:03:18,919
just their they're they're kind of like moral conceptual horizon

41
00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,639
just in absolute terms, but the idea that this kind

42
00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:25,400
of thing could be carried out in their conditions of

43
00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:28,919
peace is just like a bondable, too abominable to them.

44
00:03:29,759 --> 00:03:38,599
And interestingly it's lumped in with the Phoenix program, which

45
00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,919
obviously did what what ovidly was like, and you know,

46
00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:49,280
a mac V SAG operation, and mac V SAG was

47
00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:54,080
was very adjacent CIA in those days. It was a

48
00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:59,120
mac V SAG and US civilian intelligence operation, you know,

49
00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:04,759
like the constant to to you know, direct action targeting

50
00:04:05,439 --> 00:04:10,400
of discreet personages who construted the analf infrastructure. You know,

51
00:04:10,639 --> 00:04:15,319
because you're fighting a non state actor, obviously the human

52
00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,040
beings are the infrastructure of your ops. Okay, but you know,

53
00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:27,439
people discussed it during obviously the the Gates Committee hearings,

54
00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:30,800
the kind of guilded CIA, and people talk about it

55
00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:36,480
today like, oh, this is what horrible overreach. It's it's

56
00:04:36,519 --> 00:04:40,279
unbelievable America and Americans could do something like this, which

57
00:04:40,319 --> 00:04:43,639
is really kind of preposterous, man, because that by definition,

58
00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,920
you know, not just an asymmetrical war, but an ideological

59
00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:53,920
war in a Cold War battlespace, you know, whereby on

60
00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,360
top of everything else, you know, there's this kind of

61
00:04:58,399 --> 00:05:06,199
profound difference between combatants, you know, culturally, racially, you know,

62
00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,920
every other way Okay, I mean actually come as no

63
00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,360
surprise anybody, and I don't want to go too far

64
00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:18,160
a field, but yes, there were instances of corruption within

65
00:05:18,879 --> 00:05:23,959
the Phoenix program. You know, some some army, the Army

66
00:05:23,959 --> 00:05:26,519
of the Republic of Vietnam, like an intelligence officer like

67
00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:28,879
got mad at some guy like carrying out with his wife,

68
00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:30,399
and this guy ended up on the list and ended

69
00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:35,879
up getting whacked. And that's horrible and it's indefensible. But

70
00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:41,800
in absolute terms, you know, presuming a basic integrity of

71
00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:46,240
the officers and NCOs involved, and I believe it was

72
00:05:46,519 --> 00:05:50,000
exclusively officers and n CEOs, and particularly in those days

73
00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:56,800
of special forces, that was a pretty rigidly maintained schema,

74
00:05:58,879 --> 00:06:03,399
you know, had it been where it was, it was

75
00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,879
implemented as intended. Not only was it highly effective in

76
00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:13,120
my opinion, but it was far far, far more justifiable

77
00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,839
and moral terms. You know. Then then deploying arc light raids,

78
00:06:17,879 --> 00:06:20,000
you know that drop five and a pound bombs on

79
00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,639
you know, on women, kids and old people in the

80
00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:30,600
middle of a race, Patty. But you know, so when

81
00:06:30,639 --> 00:06:37,680
people talk about Gladil as if they're discussing, you know,

82
00:06:37,759 --> 00:06:41,800
something like a real life horror film you should look

83
00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,399
at it in those terms that as aforementioned, you know,

84
00:06:44,519 --> 00:06:47,240
and or you consider in the same vein as people

85
00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,240
do who suggested like the Pinochet regime, like the distilled

86
00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,720
essence of evil. It's become this kind of bogey man,

87
00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,160
this conceptual bogey man. For whatever reason. I speculate there's

88
00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:03,360
some seminal text, whether by Howard Zander Chomsky and I

89
00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,920
really Chomsky's done some worthwhile things, but I think even

90
00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,360
his most ardent defenders, at least you know, who are

91
00:07:10,399 --> 00:07:14,120
tuned into your content, would agree with me that, you know,

92
00:07:16,079 --> 00:07:24,319
his uh, his objectivity was compromised by these deeply i'd argue,

93
00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:30,920
almost theologically felt conceptual biases. But there's number there's a

94
00:07:30,959 --> 00:07:33,920
number of things going on with thedio. Okay. First of all,

95
00:07:33,959 --> 00:07:37,800
the Cold War was a totally abnormal conflict. You know,

96
00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:41,879
I'm always making the point again and again. One of

97
00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,240
the reasons it's completely foolhardy, you know, whether it's Lindsey

98
00:07:46,279 --> 00:07:49,040
Graham or whether it's you know, the kind of pitiable uh,

99
00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,680
you know, seing to be former President Biden talking about

100
00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,920
like you know, Putin not not not Russia, Putin, like

101
00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,360
he's not gonna stop in Ukraine, He's gonna Poland like this,

102
00:08:02,079 --> 00:08:05,279
but like like this this idea that states, you know,

103
00:08:05,439 --> 00:08:07,959
like mad men just kind of somehow, by accident of

104
00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:14,000
faith or by guile and ruthlessness, you capture apparatus of

105
00:08:14,079 --> 00:08:18,120
space and proceed like capture land like somehow like the

106
00:08:18,279 --> 00:08:21,600
more like, if you collect enough fertile women and sore

107
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,160
like can grow like sortum or something like, you win,

108
00:08:24,879 --> 00:08:26,920
like I even know what their notion is. But even

109
00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:34,159
that was obsolescence really even by the Second World War,

110
00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,879
save for the fact of the need of for Germany

111
00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,840
or Japan or one of the disadvantage kind of bat

112
00:08:42,879 --> 00:08:44,919
and when I say disadvantage I mean vis a vis

113
00:08:45,519 --> 00:08:50,000
their power potential too, you know, become a superpower. You know, yes,

114
00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:57,159
growth from and and is the is the basis of

115
00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:02,559
political and military challenges which become synonymous and and discreete

116
00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,039
and and totally unusual ways and such conditions. But also

117
00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,360
like like Laban drom even if you to wholy reject outright,

118
00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,600
you know, the kind of national socialist view of of

119
00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:18,039
of blutes and ross and everything else. I mean that

120
00:09:18,039 --> 00:09:25,679
that's there were that was that the twentieth century was uh,

121
00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,279
you know. Essentially it was it was the grand clash

122
00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:34,960
of uh, it was the grand class of civilizations to

123
00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:43,080
determine like what globalism would be. Okay, So once the

124
00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:48,240
Cold War said it in earnest, you know, your your ops,

125
00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,639
you were fighting your ops because they'd become the standard

126
00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:57,960
bearers of of of of an idea. And America was

127
00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,519
always kind of returning the serve to the con immunists

128
00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:07,960
because that both that that conceptual environment as well as

129
00:10:08,159 --> 00:10:14,159
you know, what military imperatives were prioritized within that paradigm.

130
00:10:15,159 --> 00:10:17,879
You know that it was it was, it was, it was.

131
00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:24,000
It was the Warsaw Pact, and they're adjacent elements, you know,

132
00:10:24,039 --> 00:10:31,840
who are the ones pursuing a revolutionary imperative? So, I mean, uh,

133
00:10:32,039 --> 00:10:34,159
that was the problem, and that was one of that.

134
00:10:34,159 --> 00:10:37,960
That was one of George Kennan's points, you know in uh,

135
00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:42,039
in the Long Memo or whatever. You It's it's not that,

136
00:10:42,159 --> 00:10:44,399
you know, we we've got to challenge the Soviet Union

137
00:10:44,399 --> 00:10:48,519
and Warsaw Pact for every ancient ground. It's that we've

138
00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:50,240
got to put ourselves in a position and we're not

139
00:10:50,279 --> 00:10:59,840
simply reacting and returning to serve. You know, Now, how

140
00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:05,600
do you do that if again, you're you're ops are

141
00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:11,480
the standard bearers of an idea, you know, and really

142
00:11:11,519 --> 00:11:17,919
your victory metric to accomplish global domination, destroy all competing ideologies,

143
00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:26,120
you know, assimilate people into this world society essentially, you know,

144
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:35,039
that was envisioned by the Nuremberg you know ideology. But

145
00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:39,840
you know, obviously the Soviet Union was the concord of

146
00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,559
the United States and the Soviet Union. They'd totally falling apart.

147
00:11:42,759 --> 00:11:47,120
So any future victory scenario would entail the United States

148
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,879
basically inheriting the mantle of what was envisioned, you know,

149
00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:57,559
by the Nuremberg ideological program. But the way that you know,

150
00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,799
the way that you win that is by eradicating the

151
00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:05,320
me idea and in underconniction of the act of war

152
00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:10,879
that consues the eradication of humans who are the standard

153
00:12:10,879 --> 00:12:18,360
bearers of you know, the enemy idea, such that you know,

154
00:12:19,039 --> 00:12:24,200
along the variety of criteria or perhaps even just one

155
00:12:24,279 --> 00:12:31,559
singular distinctively resilient criteria, that they can't be re educated

156
00:12:31,639 --> 00:12:36,159
or somehow like assimilated into a new paradigm. Okay, obviously

157
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:42,600
this has implications for you know, the the absolute enmity

158
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:49,159
between the the Reich and and European Jewry, such that

159
00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:54,960
European jury who was a self conscious, self identified political actor.

160
00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,639
But I that's a bit outside the scope of we're

161
00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:05,000
talking about. But there's complications that were emergent here that

162
00:13:06,639 --> 00:13:11,879
must be considered within those realities are just explicated, Okay,

163
00:13:12,039 --> 00:13:18,279
and this is very important now interestingly, and perhaps this

164
00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:25,080
won't surprise anybody, you know, really the pioneers of political warfare,

165
00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:32,120
as you know, from the side of you know, the

166
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:37,120
colonialist power or kind of perspective of you know, the

167
00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:43,519
more powerful combatant or if you will, you know, the

168
00:13:44,519 --> 00:13:50,080
party combatant who like America, who is you know, perpetually

169
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:55,200
returning to serve when op for decided to act. You know,

170
00:13:55,679 --> 00:14:00,039
the United Kingdom really kind of perfected what became a

171
00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:08,600
symmetrical warfare doctrine and political warfare doctrine. Okay, we're talking

172
00:14:08,639 --> 00:14:12,240
about Operation Banner and how Frank Kitson, you know, in

173
00:14:12,279 --> 00:14:15,200
Northern Ireland, especially owing to our viewing of resurrection Man

174
00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:23,000
Frank Kitsen, one of his I mean, basically the key

175
00:14:23,039 --> 00:14:29,159
takeaway from his kind of operational theory, if it can

176
00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,039
be distilled down to one kind of core principle on

177
00:14:32,639 --> 00:14:36,200
how to wage war against an insurgency is you've got

178
00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,399
to create a counter gang. But you've got to do

179
00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,200
this in some way. It's basically organic, Okay. You know,

180
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:43,919
you've got to work with what the Germans called the

181
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,279
mentioned material that's on the ground. You've got to sort

182
00:14:47,279 --> 00:14:52,799
of mold them. And they're political and military and sceptual

183
00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:58,720
horizon around what's instinctively already present, you know, and you've

184
00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,399
got to sort of transform the energies into something that's

185
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:08,679
you know, deadly er, more efficient, more military with the

186
00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:14,879
capital m you know, and more workable in integrated command capacity.

187
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:20,000
You know, then would just kind of be there, you know,

188
00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:28,879
like autocatonically or whatever. And of course Kits and uh,

189
00:15:30,159 --> 00:15:33,200
you know, despite the fact that he was only the

190
00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,639
commander on the ground in an operation Banner and Northern

191
00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:42,879
Ireland for about two or three years, that conflict model

192
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,159
endured the duration of hostilities. And I've made the point

193
00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:55,480
again and again that you know, when when the provisional

194
00:15:55,559 --> 00:16:02,559
IRA and adjacent Republican groupings and others, what insists that

195
00:16:03,519 --> 00:16:08,200
there was for formal collusion underway between the British security

196
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:13,399
element and loyalists. That was true. Okay, Now that doesn't

197
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,600
mean that, you know, Frank Kitson got together and hired

198
00:16:17,639 --> 00:16:19,960
some mercenary types and said, okay, you're now the Ulster

199
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,320
Volunteer Force, you know, or you're now ready and commando.

200
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,679
It was nothing like that. Like what they did was

201
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,440
they looked at what they looked at what was already

202
00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:34,399
developing on the ground. You know, in uh, you know,

203
00:16:34,559 --> 00:16:39,440
the the sectarian war in the street where like literal

204
00:16:39,519 --> 00:16:44,879
battle lions are being established between you know, sectarian living

205
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,799
between living spaces based on sectarian criteria, and you had

206
00:16:48,799 --> 00:16:55,600
these militious just spontaneously forming, you know. So they began approaching,

207
00:16:55,679 --> 00:17:02,000
you know, guys like Gusty Spence, you know, who was

208
00:17:02,039 --> 00:17:07,839
indispensable and the the the recreation of the Ulster Volunteer

209
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,440
Force in nineteen sixty six. Spence a certain combat in

210
00:17:11,519 --> 00:17:15,799
Greece with the British Army. Okay, the UVF was always

211
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,480
kind of the share punk of loyalism, you know. The

212
00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:23,119
UDA was this kind of like mass vigilante movement which

213
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,240
wasn't out in Hill ninety two, but UFF which was

214
00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:32,440
technically like the their their direct action wing that was

215
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:37,640
very very very much cultivated by British intelligence and military elements. Okay,

216
00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:44,079
and by by nineteen ninety three, loyalists were out killing

217
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,279
the IRA, you know, Suddenly, like it just became very

218
00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:53,920
very good at targeting people who were either you know,

219
00:17:55,160 --> 00:18:02,400
ir provisional IRA members or you know, shin Fein representatives

220
00:18:02,559 --> 00:18:05,559
or social democrats they wanted dead for whatever reason. Like

221
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,319
suddenly loyals became very very good at what they did. Okay,

222
00:18:09,759 --> 00:18:11,759
I mean no means like saying like what they did

223
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,920
was good. But when the bound of rationality, you know,

224
00:18:15,039 --> 00:18:20,079
and that Kitten's own point was look, you know, and

225
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,480
he was comparing in punitive terms with the British do

226
00:18:22,559 --> 00:18:24,599
things the Americans and the Germans. He's like, you know,

227
00:18:24,599 --> 00:18:27,759
you don't, you don't bring just more and more firepower

228
00:18:27,799 --> 00:18:33,599
to bear, you know, against uh, against an insurgency. You know,

229
00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,920
you're you're gonna kill a whole lot of people. You're

230
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,920
gonna you know, many of whom are you know, women, kids,

231
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:45,680
old people and just you know, other people who are

232
00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,319
you know, clearly noncombatants. And you're probably gonna you're probably

233
00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:55,799
gonna create more insurgents than you annihilate. But also there's

234
00:18:55,839 --> 00:18:58,920
got to be a kind of like menuet like ridiculously

235
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:04,440
that sounds between forces under arms, you know, for them

236
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,519
to for one hostile contact is made for them to

237
00:19:08,599 --> 00:19:14,480
remain engaged and actually you know, push for victory, you know,

238
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:19,160
by by by you know, by the way you're killing

239
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,640
the enemy. You know, if you if you seek your

240
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,480
counter gang loose on like this gang of like Mau

241
00:19:26,599 --> 00:19:30,240
Mau rebels, if you lose like the u v F

242
00:19:30,319 --> 00:19:35,440
on the p I R A, when they make a contact,

243
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,119
they're gonna fight it out and slaughter each other in

244
00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:43,319
a way that wouldn't happen if you know you, you

245
00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,920
know you you you roll, you roll through cedar tanks

246
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,559
into the streets. When the IRA doesn't anything you don't like,

247
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,599
you know, they'll disappear literally into the ether. And then

248
00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,440
the like lab of Satchel charge into like the turret hatch,

249
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:57,640
you know, like when your when one of your people,

250
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:02,480
like pops us head out for smoke. You know. And

251
00:20:02,559 --> 00:20:07,319
there's something that's kind of understated, needing to mirror what

252
00:20:07,519 --> 00:20:12,759
op for is in order to annihilate him in kind

253
00:20:12,759 --> 00:20:21,240
of like the post conventional Westphalian landscape. Now, what was

254
00:20:21,279 --> 00:20:24,119
gladiol and how does that had to do with like

255
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:33,039
anything else was talking about. Well, around nineteen fifty two

256
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,880
America in the UK, this is when they became really

257
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,519
truly kind of like fully indexed in military terms, not

258
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,200
not not just at the operational and kind of command

259
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,480
to control level and drilling with one another, you know,

260
00:20:48,599 --> 00:20:53,079
like in the inner German border, you know, be at

261
00:20:53,079 --> 00:20:56,519
the North German North German Plains, it was primarily the

262
00:20:56,559 --> 00:21:00,319
British that Benelux State's responsibility and like the fold the

263
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:04,799
gap which is primarily American armored cavalies area of operation.

264
00:21:05,519 --> 00:21:09,519
But they like like a conceptual indexing, like took a

265
00:21:09,599 --> 00:21:11,359
route and I believe a lot of this ode to

266
00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:16,759
the fact that by by January fifty two, obviously both

267
00:21:16,839 --> 00:21:20,640
you know, American forces as well as you know, the

268
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,759
British Army had been engaged, you know, in a very

269
00:21:23,799 --> 00:21:29,599
brutal conflict in Korea. Okay, their learning curve was expanding

270
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,960
in all kinds of ways relating to the study of war. Okay,

271
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:41,240
they developed this need within the minds of you know,

272
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,720
military analyst types on the civilian side and kind of

273
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,519
like think tank whiz kids or were ubiquitous in the

274
00:21:47,559 --> 00:21:52,480
Cold War as we've talked about, but also you know

275
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:58,839
military officers, uh, you know, from from from company level upward,

276
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,799
you know, like we need, we need to develop some

277
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:09,759
kind of tactical strategic imperatives, you know, relating asymmetrical warfare

278
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,839
that allows you know, the the realization of you know,

279
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,960
kind of the like the full spectrum of our of

280
00:22:17,039 --> 00:22:23,759
our killing power, but again without without allowing politics to

281
00:22:23,839 --> 00:22:28,519
creep into decision making, you know, in a in a

282
00:22:28,559 --> 00:22:30,920
way that you know, it's kind of proven fatal in

283
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:36,920
some key instances visa vis the managerial state, you know,

284
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,240
the like the experience of the Gall in Algeria, like

285
00:22:39,279 --> 00:22:41,279
first and foremost, I mean I think the Gall was

286
00:22:41,319 --> 00:22:43,440
not I don't think highly of them, but just in

287
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:48,319
purely objective terms, I mean, that's one example. But so

288
00:22:52,599 --> 00:22:54,960
in nineteen fifty two, and especially when you have the

289
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,920
experience of fighting the People's Liberation Army at China, you know,

290
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,839
and this this this kind of like endless ability of

291
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:10,480
them to absorb casualties, you know, and utilize combined arms

292
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,039
with Soviet help, and there was a lot of Soviet

293
00:23:13,079 --> 00:23:18,359
pilots flying sorties over Korea and kind of horrifyingly, a

294
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,680
number of American POWs ended up in the Soviet Union

295
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:26,880
and never returned. But because it may, you know, it

296
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:35,400
became clear that when war comes, and uh mind you

297
00:23:35,559 --> 00:23:41,640
this was you know, uh, this was long before strategic

298
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:47,400
parody existed between the United States and Warsaw Packed, but

299
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,799
I mean it was also before the it's it was

300
00:23:50,839 --> 00:23:54,720
also like manned manned bombers were you know, the the

301
00:23:54,880 --> 00:24:02,039
zenith of of kind of strategic nuclear platforms. But the

302
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:07,640
understanding was in basically every scenario game that you know,

303
00:24:08,319 --> 00:24:12,720
the Warsaw Packs is gonna overrun Europe. They're gonna smash that.

304
00:24:12,839 --> 00:24:20,319
The National Volks Army, which emerged later, but in nineteen

305
00:24:20,319 --> 00:24:26,079
fifty two, a combination of Volks two Lights I were

306
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,319
the East German Army in all but name and group

307
00:24:30,319 --> 00:24:34,160
of Soviet forces in Germany were as possible for the

308
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:37,920
operational sector I'm about to describe. After fifty six it

309
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,519
became the National Vokes Armies domain. They were gonna smash

310
00:24:42,599 --> 00:24:49,519
through the inner German border, you know, which at times

311
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,440
at the time the Berlin Wall wasn't there. After the

312
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:56,000
Berlin Wall was created, Interestingly, there were these like weak

313
00:24:56,039 --> 00:24:59,880
points where like chargers could like blow holes you know,

314
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,960
so that the National volks Army can storm through with armor,

315
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,240
but because it may the understanding that was when war

316
00:25:06,319 --> 00:25:13,599
came the National Volks Army They're gonna storm West Berlin. Well,

317
00:25:14,839 --> 00:25:24,799
you know, the warsaw packed overshoots Berlin assaults across the

318
00:25:24,839 --> 00:25:30,880
North German plane smashers to the Foldy Gap, almost certainly

319
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,839
utilizing chemical weapons and possibly taking the nuclear weapons if necessary,

320
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:43,599
and NATO at best get hold out for seventy two hours,

321
00:25:44,079 --> 00:25:51,079
you know, until until the Soviet army reaches the Rhine.

322
00:25:51,319 --> 00:25:55,799
And then even if NATO is the capacity to reconstitute,

323
00:25:56,319 --> 00:25:59,160
it's not gonna have the forces and being in order

324
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,480
to prevent you know, a further Soviet push, you know,

325
00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:07,799
thin Atlantic Ocean. Okay, so you're looking at a situation

326
00:26:08,279 --> 00:26:14,920
where okay, you know, and in these days, mind you,

327
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:20,640
the the catal is changed. For why this uh was

328
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:26,400
considered in terms almost exclusively of conventional war fighting, save

329
00:26:26,519 --> 00:26:29,359
again for you know, the tactical deployment of chemical and

330
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:35,480
nuclear weapons and the real this this isn't this endured

331
00:26:35,599 --> 00:26:38,079
thirty years later, but for very different reason. Then we'll

332
00:26:38,079 --> 00:26:43,680
get into that. But the fact isn't it basically it's

333
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:49,880
a basically conventional fight NAT, it was gonna be overrun

334
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:59,640
by the massive superiority of forces in being by warsaw PCTs. Okay,

335
00:27:02,599 --> 00:27:09,559
The only hope really of liberating the continents in these

336
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:17,680
cases would be some sort of infrastructure, infrastructure in situ

337
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:23,559
that could be activated, you know, in order to generate

338
00:27:23,799 --> 00:27:28,880
UH an insurgency, like a pre existing insurgency basically, and

339
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,599
this had never really been attempted before, unless you count

340
00:27:31,599 --> 00:27:33,759
the Viet Cong, but it's kind of a different thing.

341
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:42,640
But you know, the understanding was that UH men were

342
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:48,160
selected who are designated, you know, to be stay behind

343
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:57,440
elements all the way up to I believe battalion level. Arms,

344
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:05,200
cachetes were hidden, escape were prepared. Politically, loyal civilians were

345
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:13,000
recruited when TURN developed their own like social infrastructure around

346
00:28:13,079 --> 00:28:17,359
what was to become the core mission, an event of

347
00:28:17,559 --> 00:28:26,119
UH Soviet conquest. Plant the true truly clans, truly clandestine

348
00:28:26,279 --> 00:28:31,279
cells were established who made contact with one another, but

349
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:36,519
didn't even make contact with each other's respective handlers, you know,

350
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,079
or with the above board but still highly secret GLADIO

351
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:51,079
designated elements and UH. This was largely devised by the

352
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,720
United Kings what was which during World War Two, what

353
00:28:55,839 --> 00:29:00,440
came to be called the United Kingdoms Special Operations Executive

354
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:09,400
Okay Gladiol was largely created with the experience and development

355
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,759
of former SEO officers. I had the pleasure a man

356
00:29:13,799 --> 00:29:16,559
who was a dear friend of my family and who

357
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:20,920
was actually one of them. That of going to the

358
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,559
old university is because he taught there. His name was

359
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:31,359
Uh Samuel Sarcesian. As he might have gleaned, he was Armenian.

360
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:38,839
His parents are Armenian immigrants. He was in the Special Forces.

361
00:29:39,839 --> 00:29:44,920
He was in a heavy action in Korea in the infantry,

362
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,039
and he was one of the first true green Berets,

363
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,279
you know, to pass the Q course and get the

364
00:29:52,279 --> 00:29:56,000
Green Berets. And why they recruit him, it wasn't just

365
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,039
because he was an excellent comments soldiers. Because he was Armenian,

366
00:29:59,559 --> 00:30:03,160
you know, he could stay behind and blend in, you know,

367
00:30:03,799 --> 00:30:11,799
And the earliest like special forces became something somewhat different

368
00:30:12,559 --> 00:30:15,160
or it included that mission as well as like many

369
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:22,359
other adjacent UH ones as time went on. But Uh,

370
00:30:23,119 --> 00:30:26,319
that really is the birth of special Forces. It's very

371
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:34,599
much a Cold War creature, you know. I'm not saying

372
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,160
that's bad or something. I actually think, I actually are

373
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,319
any Special Forces is in a lot better shape these

374
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,599
days than I think so kind. It's got a lot

375
00:30:42,599 --> 00:30:44,079
of problems, but I don't want I don't want to

376
00:30:44,759 --> 00:30:49,720
upset the that our friends who are military guys, and

377
00:30:49,799 --> 00:30:52,880
they I mean, like are literal friends of hours. Like

378
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,599
I'm not talking like Randos and I. I they don't

379
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,519
mean they know I hold them in tremendous respect. But

380
00:30:58,599 --> 00:31:08,559
its point being, uh, you know it, Uh, this was

381
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:15,400
very much you know, it's taking very seriously. And not

382
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:19,119
only was like for example, like my my, my mentor

383
00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:23,200
and family friend, the Sarkesian, like not only was he

384
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:28,200
a you know, Armenian immigrant stock, but uh the dialectical

385
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:35,440
inflection he could affect that properly to fit in with locals.

386
00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:42,359
You know, this was very very sophisticated on operational terms,

387
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:51,279
especially for the time. Now something interesting happened. It's always

388
00:31:51,319 --> 00:31:58,039
developed and the center of gladio because of the gladio

389
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:05,920
was Italy. Okay, now now why Italy? You know Italy?

390
00:32:06,079 --> 00:32:12,000
Uh I maintained that, uh, the real it is the

391
00:32:12,039 --> 00:32:16,440
Marshall Plan. It wasn't it wasn't just uh it was.

392
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,079
It wasn't what Stalin said and just you know, kind

393
00:32:19,079 --> 00:32:23,279
of bind the Buddhist Republic to American debt or whatever like. Yeah,

394
00:32:23,279 --> 00:32:25,359
I mean that was like an added benefit. But I

395
00:32:25,359 --> 00:32:27,480
mean the Buddhist Republic was done. I mean they were

396
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,440
they were being more in the plan out of existence.

397
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:36,680
Like Italy on the other hand, just geostrategically as well

398
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:41,799
as in sheer economic terms for you know, a European

399
00:32:42,319 --> 00:32:45,960
zone of of commerce and industry. You know, they were

400
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:51,680
incredibly important. Okay, Italy had to be brought in the NATO.

401
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,599
Italy also had to be repaired from the devastation it

402
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:03,759
had suffered, you know, and throughout the fifties and sixties.

403
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,240
You know, it'll ended up becoming i think for a time,

404
00:33:07,279 --> 00:33:10,960
you know, like the fifth largest economy in the world,

405
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:17,440
you know it only also it never underwent a denacification

406
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:22,640
process it Uh, there was still a very active communist

407
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,920
party there, you know that that didn't just participate and

408
00:33:27,599 --> 00:33:33,200
challenge for seats, but they insulated themselves into coalition and

409
00:33:33,279 --> 00:33:39,440
governments regularly, you know. And on the other side you

410
00:33:39,599 --> 00:33:47,720
had openly fascist and national socialist parties that uh were

411
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,240
rapidly they weren't just rabidly anti communists, they were rapidly

412
00:33:51,279 --> 00:33:54,480
anti Soviet. They still viewed the Soviet Union like as

413
00:33:54,519 --> 00:33:59,480
their ops. Okay, and I maintain, you know, the big

414
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,279
you don't know. I mean, you're you're a learned guy,

415
00:34:02,319 --> 00:34:06,079
but some of this stuff is trivia. You know. YACKI

416
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,599
had a huge falling out with Moseley, and Moseley refused

417
00:34:09,639 --> 00:34:18,159
the publish imperium through the Union movement the brand because

418
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,840
Mosley wasn't an arch cold warrior, you know, like one

419
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,239
hundred and ten percent, And a lot of people are like, well,

420
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,840
he was trying to find his way back to respectability

421
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,840
in British political life. I don't think that's the case.

422
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:31,960
I think he really believed that.

423
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:37,039
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, anybody who knows, anybody who knows what Mosley

424
00:34:37,079 --> 00:34:39,679
went through in the next you know, fifteen to twenty years,

425
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,159
knows that he he was he knew he wasn't getting

426
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,199
back into oh yeah, the main stream of politics.

427
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's ridiculous what he was saying. I

428
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,599
think he's gonna be a prime minister or something. I mean,

429
00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:54,880
like all the fair people thinking what it's uh.

430
00:34:54,599 --> 00:34:57,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's video on YouTube of him in like nineteen

431
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,960
sixty two going into some British town to and their

432
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:02,599
people chasing him, trying to beat him.

433
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:07,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a preposterous claim. And like who's he trying

434
00:35:07,559 --> 00:35:10,800
to impress? And it's like Mosley even in the even

435
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,119
in the inter Warriors, like, uh, I mean, Mosley did

436
00:35:14,159 --> 00:35:16,960
his own thing, and he was uh, he indexed very

437
00:35:17,039 --> 00:35:20,400
much with Hitler. But at the point he disagreed with

438
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:22,480
Hitler on and he was like open about it, I

439
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,280
mean like and he yeah, he one of the reasons

440
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,159
is he's a hero of mine. He was very like

441
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:33,400
free thinking man. But so Italy being this back to

442
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,519
where we were, Italy being Italy being ground Zery Gladio. Again,

443
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,159
it wasn't just because the political the internal political situation,

444
00:35:43,159 --> 00:35:45,599
you know, the need to bring Italy back into the

445
00:35:45,639 --> 00:35:49,400
fold of Europe under his perannumber. You know what was

446
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,920
then the European coal and Steel community, and you know,

447
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,159
and the and to bringing up the snuff as as

448
00:35:56,199 --> 00:35:58,880
a real uh as a real you know, like regional

449
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,679
power into itself. But also you hadn't, Gladio, was you

450
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,679
had You had a whole lot of very fit, very

451
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:12,800
committed fascist men of military age who had experience you

452
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,800
know what I mean, these this is not that kind

453
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:20,079
of duty that just regular guys are gonna sign on for,

454
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,760
you know, even if they're basically patriotic anti communists like

455
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,039
you need uh, like you need basically like like fascist

456
00:36:28,159 --> 00:36:33,239
jihadi for something like this. Okay, you know, and it's

457
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,559
also too you know, how do you how do you

458
00:36:35,639 --> 00:36:40,800
recruit men for for these roles? Do you? You don't just

459
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,440
like put an ad out, you know and like the

460
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,800
them equivalent of you know, Craigslist or something, you know,

461
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,920
like as it was in two thousand and six. You

462
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,239
don't uh, you know, you don't just uh, you know,

463
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,159
you know, at the evening news, you know, just say like,

464
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,800
you know, we're building a state behind fascist army. You know,

465
00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:59,679
would you look to be part of it? You know?

466
00:36:59,679 --> 00:37:05,159
They they had like you know, NATO uh intelligence as

467
00:37:05,159 --> 00:37:08,039
well as uh, you know, like the NATO's kind of

468
00:37:08,039 --> 00:37:14,559
commanding control element, which would have been at that point

469
00:37:15,639 --> 00:37:19,199
the supreme alleyed command in Europe. They had to basically

470
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,639
which is why I brought up, you know, kissing this

471
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:25,920
point on counter yangs. They basically had the index with

472
00:37:27,119 --> 00:37:31,679
you know, the fascist resistance that still existed there, and

473
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:37,920
these national socialist guys who never changed their stripes and

474
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,800
who were very very active. You know, you basically had

475
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,800
index with them when some kind of trust sell them

476
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:51,800
on the merits of the mission and you know, convinced

477
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,719
them to essentially start start training for this you know

478
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,760
what was then a very like real contingency and we're

479
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:04,480
gonna these people into cells you know, like a self

480
00:38:04,519 --> 00:38:08,159
stroke that's actually workable, that allows them, you know, to

481
00:38:08,159 --> 00:38:13,719
become habituated to their the command structure of uh of whatever.

482
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:17,920
I don't know the force levels would have been exactly,

483
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,760
but you know, whatever arm element they were part of.

484
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,559
But also it got them habituated to drilling with one

485
00:38:23,599 --> 00:38:26,920
of you with another and all the all the kind

486
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:32,599
of psychosocial imperatives that one needs to cultivate if you're

487
00:38:32,599 --> 00:38:36,079
gonna send you know, what is called the military sociology,

488
00:38:36,119 --> 00:38:42,440
a primary group of men, you know, into action. But uh,

489
00:38:44,119 --> 00:38:46,800
a lot of this, you know a lot of people

490
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,320
didn't know about any of this. I mean people like

491
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,719
my dad did, but like, uh, that to my dad,

492
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:54,599
so secret squirrel. But he was in a position to

493
00:38:54,639 --> 00:38:57,960
know about certain things that other people didn't. But the

494
00:38:58,039 --> 00:39:05,639
general public it really didn't know about the scope, breath

495
00:39:05,639 --> 00:39:09,440
and Purpose and Gladio until about October nineteen ninety, Okay,

496
00:39:10,079 --> 00:39:12,920
and that was very interesting because basically, like right about

497
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,880
a year after the Energement border collapsed, a lot of

498
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:21,880
these uh, a lot of these, a lot of these

499
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,320
kinds of like deep dark secrets of the Cold War

500
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,320
wanally that way, we're just kind of like things that

501
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,840
had been very eyes only like suddenly came to light.

502
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:33,639
I think the I think it's still the people who

503
00:39:33,639 --> 00:39:36,519
are in control of a lot of this data. They

504
00:39:36,599 --> 00:39:40,320
knew that this was very very rapidly you know, gonna

505
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,320
be kind of censored and take out, taking out of circulation,

506
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,000
which is exactly what happened, say this sense of like

507
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:50,679
it's now or never now. So in October nineteen ninety,

508
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,320
I'm gonna butcher this name and I'm so sorry, but

509
00:39:56,519 --> 00:40:08,000
uh Julie Androtti he issued for this series of revelations

510
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,960
relating to the internal situation like of the Western Bloc,

511
00:40:13,039 --> 00:40:15,719
like pretty much from you know, the emergence in NATO

512
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,119
and especially kind of it's the starting point was you know,

513
00:40:22,519 --> 00:40:25,519
mid Korean War, like when Gladio first became kind of

514
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,000
you know became more than just sort of a you know,

515
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:34,400
like an abstract uh you know model banded about it

516
00:40:34,559 --> 00:40:44,679
among like war college types. Giulio Androtti, I think it

517
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,360
was something of like an Italian and in hour man,

518
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:54,360
but not quite I think it was. I think he

519
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,639
was far more of a compelling person is I don't

520
00:40:56,639 --> 00:40:59,280
mean that negatively, but he My point is that he

521
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,760
wasn't even considering the Italian situation he was in. He

522
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:09,079
was unusual for a post post war European executive in

523
00:41:09,199 --> 00:41:12,840
DROUGHTI he was the forty first Prime Minister of Italy.

524
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:24,039
He served in seven governments seventy two, seventy three, seventy six,

525
00:41:24,159 --> 00:41:29,639
seventy nine, nineteen eighty nine to ninety two. He was

526
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:34,119
really and he was the leader of the primary organizer

527
00:41:34,119 --> 00:41:38,039
of the Christian Democrats from the earliest days. And here's

528
00:41:38,039 --> 00:41:41,920
the thing. People don't understand the Christian Democrats in Europe.

529
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,719
They're not just like the Republicans of the Tories. They

530
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:52,599
were basically the Vatican Party in Italy to a lesser

531
00:41:52,599 --> 00:41:57,639
degree in Germany like after World War Two. Okay, they

532
00:41:57,639 --> 00:42:02,599
were genuinely conservative, were socially right wing. They had a

533
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,880
very strong IDENTI vacation with the Catholic Church, and Catholic

534
00:42:08,199 --> 00:42:11,440
what alistair magendire, I guess we call virtue I Thics,

535
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,880
although I'm sure they had I'm not Catholic and I'm

536
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,480
no read Italian. I'm sure they had different sources to

537
00:42:16,599 --> 00:42:21,519
draw upon. But my point being the Christian Democrats, they

538
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:28,880
they uh there there their heritage probably had more to

539
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:35,199
do uh with you know, the kind of political culture

540
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,239
one had in Austria and the Inner War years than

541
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:43,119
it did, you know, with with somebody like uh like

542
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:49,239
you know, like uh like like like Adaer Okay, for example.

543
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:55,199
Much as like I said, there there was some basic

544
00:42:55,280 --> 00:43:03,159
similarities and and Geordie had an inner thing uh perspective,

545
00:43:04,039 --> 00:43:09,519
and he he's viewed these days as probably the most

546
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:15,519
powerful and prominent like political like executive political figure of

547
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:19,639
uh of the Italian First Republic, you know, since you know,

548
00:43:19,679 --> 00:43:26,679
since nineteen forty five basically Okay, And I'm going so

549
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:31,639
deep into his biography because it's essential understanding gladio okay,

550
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,280
and you'll see why or like what I mean in

551
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:41,679
a minute. He begins a protege of a man named

552
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:50,920
Elsid de Geest Sperri, the Sperry became a member of

553
00:43:50,960 --> 00:44:01,239
the Parliament of a Trentino, which was a UH part

554
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:06,239
of the Austrian reichstad It was one of these uh

555
00:44:06,679 --> 00:44:10,960
it was one of these Italian territories that was semi

556
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:16,159
autonomous but was under the sovereignty of the Habsburg Empire. Okay,

557
00:44:19,159 --> 00:44:24,639
because Sperry began began the First World War is partitically neutral.

558
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:33,400
He sympathized very very strongly with Pope Benedict and said basically,

559
00:44:33,519 --> 00:44:35,559
like you know, if you're if you're a good Catholic

560
00:44:35,599 --> 00:44:38,199
and you know, like a good Italian, you know you're

561
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:44,000
you're gonna buy you know, Pope Benedicts, Uh, ultimately what

562
00:44:44,199 --> 00:44:48,920
were ultimately unsuccessful, you know, like but very well intentioned

563
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:53,920
of Resince here everts towards peace. Carl the First of

564
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:59,679
Austria was another figure very much kind of like Index

565
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:07,159
with this respective who uh whom you know who uh

566
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:14,280
Ugus Berry saw, you know, I die with but Gaspari

567
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:20,920
as time went on, became somewhat radicalized. Okay. In nineteen

568
00:45:21,039 --> 00:45:23,880
nineteen he was one of the founders but became the

569
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:31,800
Italian People's Party along with Luigi Sturzo. He served as

570
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,719
a deputy in the Italian Parliament for a few years

571
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:39,480
from twenty one to twenty four, which is obviously you know,

572
00:45:39,519 --> 00:45:48,079
the fascist ascendancy was nineteen twenty two. He was enthusiastic

573
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:55,280
about support of his party, the PPI and UH the

574
00:45:55,400 --> 00:46:00,320
first UH government around their first kabinet Mussolini, because the

575
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,440
way he viewed it, it was that you know, this is this,

576
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:06,760
this is what we need to standing is of Bolshevism,

577
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,519
because Bolshevism is going to destroy the Catholic Church and

578
00:46:09,559 --> 00:46:11,360
they're already you know, just like they're doing to the

579
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,719
Orthodox Church. And he wasn't wrong, you know, and Mussolini's

580
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,159
Moslene's relations to Catholicism was complicated. It was kind of

581
00:46:20,159 --> 00:46:24,559
like Charleston Moross okay, And it's hard for like, first

582
00:46:24,559 --> 00:46:26,719
of all, I don't believe Mosleini was an atheist, even

583
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,920
though he wasn't you know, God fearing in the sense

584
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,679
we're talking about. But it's when a si rumors put

585
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:37,360
themselves and you know, kind of a twenty twentieth century

586
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:42,840
modernist perspective, especially when shaped by the Great War, and

587
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:48,800
you know, the kind of certainly humanizing paradigms like they're

588
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:50,960
in all level of which seemed to mirror each other,

589
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:57,000
and some sort of like grand constellation tailored the rob

590
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,199
man of his ability to live othe his historical he

591
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:04,280
had as a discreet personality. It's not as like Marxist

592
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:09,719
Pavelin or something. It's you know, they're very very much

593
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,400
the core of the European right, like the true right,

594
00:47:12,519 --> 00:47:25,840
like thought in these terms. Yeah yeah, but uh as

595
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:35,159
uh as Mussolin's grip kind of became absolute and unlike Hitler,

596
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:45,679
who you know was a huge or a tremendous aspect

597
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:50,639
of his ascendency oud uh you know, the strategics of

598
00:47:50,639 --> 00:47:56,320
of plebisites. You know, Mussolini was much more. There's not

599
00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:01,440
only called a personality on Mussolini in there. There definitely

600
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:08,360
wasn't you know, uh, from the from from the center

601
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,960
right to the to the truly fascist. You know, I

602
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,920
mostly he had had a very strong mandate for a

603
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:26,320
twentieth century executive, but uh, he was prone to almost

604
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:33,559
like quasi Leninists, you know, sort of utterances that then

605
00:48:33,639 --> 00:48:40,519
that henceforward just became the law. You know. He mostly

606
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:53,920
mostly fundamentally, uh fundamentally altered the structural balance of power

607
00:48:54,039 --> 00:49:04,599
between the executive and and in the parliam and and

608
00:49:04,599 --> 00:49:09,079
and in the electoral system itself as well as the

609
00:49:09,119 --> 00:49:14,000
parliament was largely becoming someone gilded anyway by the Serrebral Law,

610
00:49:15,119 --> 00:49:19,440
which basically guaranteed like the National Fascist Party, you know,

611
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:25,559
like a certain signage of cabinet seats, okay, so essentially

612
00:49:25,599 --> 00:49:33,639
became a one party state without you know, something like

613
00:49:33,679 --> 00:49:37,400
the Enabling Act to finesse it. And for the record too,

614
00:49:37,639 --> 00:49:41,239
and this is a subject for a different series or episode,

615
00:49:42,079 --> 00:49:48,960
but you know, Hitler didn't. Hitler didn't take the oath

616
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:54,519
of office as counselor, you know, and then or even

617
00:49:54,599 --> 00:49:56,840
later after you after the Enabling Act, you know, when

618
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:01,360
he became a consulor and and fear of the German Reich,

619
00:50:02,519 --> 00:50:06,320
he didn't. He didn't something declare that like you know now,

620
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,159
like you know, organized state are all you know, or

621
00:50:09,199 --> 00:50:16,000
all apparatus of the party, you know, and the internal

622
00:50:16,079 --> 00:50:22,920
police apparatus was very directly co opted by National Socialists

623
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,159
and became an organ of the party, which is interesting

624
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:30,599
of itself, but other than that, that's one of the

625
00:50:30,639 --> 00:50:32,840
reasons there was this kind of agonistic pluralism in the

626
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:37,559
Third Reich, where in some ways people didn't couldn't quite

627
00:50:37,639 --> 00:50:40,719
grasp like where you know, sort of like the state

628
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,800
bureaucracy stops and the party bureaucracy began. Or you had

629
00:50:45,639 --> 00:50:50,400
you had organic government that literally had like an identical mandate,

630
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,280
you know, but one was you know, like a branch

631
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:55,599
of the s D which was accountal of the s S.

632
00:50:56,079 --> 00:51:01,239
Like another was you know, like a an internal security

633
00:51:01,239 --> 00:51:05,480
department that was you know, tied to the AD there,

634
00:51:05,639 --> 00:51:08,000
you know, which had absolutely no leg accountability to the

635
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:20,639
same chain of command. But the uh, what ultimately happened was, uh,

636
00:51:21,159 --> 00:51:25,280
these kinds of these kinds of like reform is by

637
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:35,000
the by bully pulpit flexing like figuratively and literally. This

638
00:51:35,199 --> 00:51:39,199
led to this led a great deal of turmoil in

639
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:43,559
the early years of the the National Fascist Party. And

640
00:51:43,639 --> 00:51:48,159
it's a single party rule, there's a great deal of

641
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:55,239
violence against other parties would refuse to accept, uh you know,

642
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:58,920
the serbral law and just kind of refuse will accept,

643
00:51:59,079 --> 00:52:03,960
you know, it'll dose a sort of self appointed mandate.

644
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:14,079
This caused the PPI to this the fracture. Digas Ferry

645
00:52:14,559 --> 00:52:21,239
became uh he remained on as a secretary of a

646
00:52:23,039 --> 00:52:30,360
of the Anti Fascist faction that remained until November twenty

647
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:36,400
November No. Twenty until until November nineteen twenty six. You know,

648
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,079
in a true climate of kind of over violence and

649
00:52:39,079 --> 00:52:44,480
intimidation became the norm. You know, the the PPI was

650
00:52:44,639 --> 00:52:50,920
was just formly dissolved. You know. Gasperi himself was arrested

651
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:57,920
in March of twenty seven. He did four years in prison.

652
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,599
The Vatican negotiated a real lease, you know, which again

653
00:53:04,159 --> 00:53:09,360
as the indexing and the relationship between the Vatican and

654
00:53:11,159 --> 00:53:16,760
the Christian Democrats and their precursors, that's really important, you know,

655
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:20,159
to understanding the politics the inner warriors nearly Cold War.

656
00:53:24,679 --> 00:53:30,920
But you know, he was, uh, he was after his

657
00:53:31,159 --> 00:53:36,679
release in nineteen twenty eight, he was basically unpersoned, you know. Yeah,

658
00:53:36,679 --> 00:53:40,679
he had deficuely finding employment. He was in serious financial difficulties.

659
00:53:43,639 --> 00:53:47,559
His uh, some of his church contacts, you know securit

660
00:53:47,639 --> 00:53:52,679
yim a job as a cataloger in the Vatican Library,

661
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,239
which probably saved his life, and that's where he spent

662
00:53:55,280 --> 00:54:00,760
the next that in the next fourteen years until until

663
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:05,719
the collapse of the of the Kingdom of Italy I mean,

664
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:07,840
the Rum state in forty three, I mean the rum

665
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:15,840
state of the Cellar Republic endured. But you know it's uh,

666
00:54:16,119 --> 00:54:22,119
the big contribution of Gaspari one of the major international

667
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:27,920
one of the major international newspapers, which in those days

668
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:33,559
a political newspaper, a new political newspaper having international circulation

669
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:38,599
was a big deal. He wrote a column where this

670
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,639
was in Ninete, this was in nineteen thirty four, I mean,

671
00:54:41,639 --> 00:54:46,039
when he had absolutely no love for the National Fascist Party,

672
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:52,360
but uh he uh he celebrated the defeat of the

673
00:54:52,760 --> 00:55:01,440
Social Democrats and uh in Austria we claim were you know,

674
00:55:01,559 --> 00:55:08,039
on a on a mention of de christianizing Austria, and uh,

675
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:12,320
you know that they were cobD allies of the Bolsheviks.

676
00:55:12,519 --> 00:55:15,360
And he see declared to knowing certain terms that the

677
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:19,599
German Church that we you know in Italy we should

678
00:55:19,639 --> 00:55:23,199
follow example of the of the German Catholic Church, you know,

679
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:26,239
and we should prefer knowing certain terms you know, national

680
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:30,840
Socialism to Bolshevism, like Bolshevism is our is the mortal

681
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,400
enemy of Christ and of the Catholic Church. So this

682
00:55:34,559 --> 00:55:37,719
is uh, you know, these these these alliances are more

683
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:48,960
complicated than people will. You know. It's during uh, during

684
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:54,159
World War two. This is one of the spirit has

685
00:55:54,199 --> 00:56:02,559
formally established the Christian Democrats. I think it was clear

686
00:56:02,639 --> 00:56:05,840
to me he saw the writing on the wall that

687
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:09,039
you know, the Acts were going to lose the war.

688
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:19,440
He published, uh, and deliberately limited circulation to uh what

689
00:56:19,559 --> 00:56:22,360
appears to be you know, like a handful of cadres

690
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:27,599
that we trusted. The samounted to a program for the

691
00:56:27,639 --> 00:56:34,519
new Christian Democrat Party, and uh it was titled quite literally,

692
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:44,079
you know, Ideas for Reconstruction. Okay, Gasperry. From that point on,

693
00:56:45,039 --> 00:56:46,639
you know, he was like the under He was the

694
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:50,920
undisputed kind of han show. Not just the Christian Democrats,

695
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:56,920
which were a new sort of constellation of of of

696
00:56:57,039 --> 00:57:03,039
political values contained in one you know, pretty pretty autocratic

697
00:57:03,119 --> 00:57:09,320
and well managed party, but they ended up dominating Parliament

698
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,880
for decades, you know, and they were basically right wing.

699
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:16,000
I mean I don't mean that in twenty first century terms.

700
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:19,239
I mean they were very much like a nationalist Catholic

701
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:24,360
you know, very you know, very pro very very patriotic,

702
00:57:25,119 --> 00:57:28,960
you know, like racialism didn't feature into their equation to

703
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,280
the same degree that it did and does some continent

704
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:36,559
all tendencies. But this was a genuine like right wing tenancy, okay,

705
00:57:38,719 --> 00:57:45,800
And when Southern Italy was conquered by the Allies, this

706
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:50,280
ferry became basically like the main representatives of the Christian

707
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:55,280
Democrats and what became known as the National Liberation Community,

708
00:57:56,119 --> 00:58:01,199
the National Liberation Committee, like dissident elements that you know,

709
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:05,880
we're we're all kind of jockeying from you know, patronage

710
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:10,119
by the Allies and you know who would give them

711
00:58:10,159 --> 00:58:16,079
the mandate and uh, you know, the security elements in

712
00:58:16,199 --> 00:58:21,519
order to in order to do insinuate themselves as you know,

713
00:58:21,599 --> 00:58:26,280
the prominent pre eminent like cadre or party like ruling

714
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:36,760
the country. It's uh, this very first uh became a

715
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:44,320
minister without portfolio and a government led by Ivan Benom.

716
00:58:48,599 --> 00:58:56,039
Later in Farizio Perry's cabinet, he became the Minister of

717
00:58:56,119 --> 00:59:00,320
Foreign Affairs. And that's kind of when that's got all

718
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:06,079
these ideas he's been cultivating, like got wide sort of circulation,

719
00:59:07,119 --> 00:59:09,119
you know, And in my opinion, he was always a

720
00:59:09,159 --> 00:59:12,519
more kind of thoughtful individual than add and hour I

721
00:59:12,519 --> 00:59:15,039
think of adding now it's kind of like a great

722
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:21,000
perbial horse trader and like literally like an incredibly like

723
00:59:21,159 --> 00:59:25,400
skilled politician, but I there was there was no real

724
00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:29,280
vision there like good or bad. I mean there's I

725
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:31,920
Han Drudell had something to say about adding how but

726
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:33,599
I'm not I'm not going to repeat it less like

727
00:59:33,719 --> 00:59:43,440
YouTube virus or something. But to be fair, I compared

728
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:48,079
to some possibilities I had now looks pretty good and gaspary. Uh,

729
00:59:48,519 --> 00:59:50,880
I think it was positively hero. I'm considering a lot

730
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:56,679
of a lot of you know, the challenges he was

731
00:59:56,719 --> 01:00:01,360
facing quite literally not just a you know, his his

732
01:00:01,519 --> 01:00:09,599
soul and sanity, but his life and whim. Finally, uh, Gaspari.

733
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:12,360
From forty five to fifty three, he was prime He

734
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:18,159
was prime minister of a successive Christian Democrat like governments. Now,

735
01:00:18,159 --> 01:00:20,920
if you know what about Italian politics, that's that's like

736
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:25,159
absurd longevity. Okay, that's like that's that that's basically a

737
01:00:25,199 --> 01:00:27,960
British prime minister like ruling for like you know, like

738
01:00:28,079 --> 01:00:31,920
eighteen years. Okay, Like I don't think if I'm not

739
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:33,800
making front of the Italians. This is like a fact.

740
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:39,480
But uh this uh you know this, it was declared

741
01:00:39,519 --> 01:00:46,960
a republic. You know immediately they signed uh a peace treaty.

742
01:00:47,159 --> 01:00:49,960
Uh like a from a Peatriot with the Alan forty seven.

743
01:00:50,519 --> 01:00:53,039
They they were they were one of the original Natal

744
01:00:53,079 --> 01:00:59,760
members in forty nine, you know. And again uh Gasparri

745
01:01:00,039 --> 01:01:03,719
and uh the Christian Democrat delegation, they actively courted the

746
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:07,159
United States, you know. And again I don't I don't

747
01:01:07,159 --> 01:01:10,679
buy into the mythology of like, oh, the Marshall Plan

748
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:13,599
just like created magic money and like made made Europe

749
01:01:13,639 --> 01:01:17,039
like rich. Again. Uh, that's that's complete nonsense. But there

750
01:01:17,039 --> 01:01:21,320
were infrastructural needs and there was a need for capital

751
01:01:21,559 --> 01:01:24,880
and key sectors in order for Europe to be able

752
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:29,599
to like like realize its great power potential. And the

753
01:01:29,719 --> 01:01:37,559
Marshall Plan when it's uh, when it when it's capital

754
01:01:39,079 --> 01:01:43,920
inflows were truly targeted in a way that indexed with

755
01:01:44,239 --> 01:01:52,559
necessary developmental schemes. It was highly effective. And he uh

756
01:01:52,679 --> 01:01:57,639
he lobbied very very hard for U for participation in

757
01:01:57,639 --> 01:02:01,440
the Marshall Plan. The like the Marshall Plan, I gets

758
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:07,039
it really did. In the case of Italy, I I

759
01:02:07,079 --> 01:02:09,239
don't think the term you know, like economic miracle, like

760
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:13,800
the Spanish miracle or itself pretty miracle, you know, because

761
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:18,880
it's it's just another everything kind of like conscious or

762
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:22,360
not to like make economics. It's a good secure thing.

763
01:02:23,199 --> 01:02:25,119
But to act like it's literally some kind of magic

764
01:02:25,159 --> 01:02:28,480
and it it doesn't owe to you know, the human

765
01:02:28,519 --> 01:02:34,400
ability to you know, to truly like build equity, you know,

766
01:02:34,599 --> 01:02:40,960
from from the raw stuff of the capital again quite

767
01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:46,679
literally and you know, the uh, the Marshall plane itself

768
01:02:46,719 --> 01:02:50,239
did not revide Europe. But at the same time, again

769
01:02:52,199 --> 01:02:59,840
the European colon steel community was essential. And you know,

770
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:06,280
gesperit's like like like pushing to make this, you know,

771
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:14,639
a policy priority and you know, making it an unconditional imperative,

772
01:03:15,039 --> 01:03:28,199
you know, for for his government was essential when uh,

773
01:03:28,639 --> 01:03:33,440
when he did take uh when when he did it

774
01:03:33,679 --> 01:03:39,000
become prime MINSI that first time, succeeding Ferruccio Pary. He

775
01:03:39,079 --> 01:03:43,079
inherited a coalition that included both Italian Communist Party and

776
01:03:43,519 --> 01:03:51,719
Italian Socialist Party delegates, along with along with other like

777
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:56,519
smaller parties that were nominally independent or you know, had names,

778
01:03:56,519 --> 01:03:59,400
you know, like the you know, like a Liberal Republican

779
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:02,320
Party or the Action Party, but you know, some of

780
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:06,119
which had very much you know, we're communists at Jason

781
01:04:06,239 --> 01:04:17,159
if not, you know, no proxies too. To Gatsbury's credit,

782
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:31,320
his Deputy Prime Minister Palmiro Togliotti did cooperate in gas

783
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:35,440
Spurry's attempts to soften the terms of impending l I

784
01:04:35,559 --> 01:04:41,960
PCE treaty with Italy. You know, again, you know, seeing

785
01:04:42,239 --> 01:04:45,320
very much what was being done to Germany, and this

786
01:04:45,519 --> 01:04:53,360
was this, This is you know, him lobbing so heavily

787
01:04:53,400 --> 01:05:00,440
and so very publicly for relief through and cop operation.

788
01:05:01,199 --> 01:05:04,599
They're in the European recovery program, you know, which was

789
01:05:04,719 --> 01:05:10,400
the tangling of the Marshall Plan. You know this this,

790
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:19,719
this was opposed most siparously by the communists, but gas

791
01:05:19,719 --> 01:05:24,920
Sperry did manage to hold this you know, initial prime

792
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:32,079
ministership together despite all odds, especially when you consider you know,

793
01:05:32,199 --> 01:05:35,599
the the fact that he was dealing with the cabinet

794
01:05:35,639 --> 01:05:39,400
has very much stopped. But that was very much stocked

795
01:05:39,639 --> 01:05:49,599
by os the Uh. It was under Gasperry's watch that

796
01:05:49,679 --> 01:05:54,880
Italy would you know, the one thing significant referendum on

797
01:05:54,960 --> 01:06:01,719
his watch pose the question of whether Italy was to

798
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:07,599
remain a monarchy here become a republic, you know, and

799
01:06:07,639 --> 01:06:13,480
again that I believe very much was uh was uh

800
01:06:13,639 --> 01:06:16,599
the spirits like Machiavellian streak. You know, like I said,

801
01:06:16,719 --> 01:06:24,440
like he like Franco's redeem post World of the Spury

802
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:29,480
obviously was a far more amorable figure. One of the

803
01:06:29,480 --> 01:06:34,199
ways that uh, they were able to you know, kind

804
01:06:34,199 --> 01:06:40,000
of bring the Vatican into the fold and not just

805
01:06:40,239 --> 01:06:47,320
uh administrative capacities and in terms of uh insinuating a

806
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:50,840
kind of moral legitimacy, which you know carried a lot

807
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:57,880
of cachet still in those days, but also uh it's

808
01:06:58,159 --> 01:07:03,159
allowed it allowed for a certain freedom of movement in

809
01:07:03,679 --> 01:07:08,480
global politique vis a vis what you know, other countries

810
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:12,000
would respond to that they wouldn't have, you know, if

811
01:07:12,079 --> 01:07:15,880
Italy was merely, you know, a a client regime in

812
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:20,440
the United States with all the trappings they're in, including

813
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:25,480
you know, the stripping away of the Roman Church from

814
01:07:26,519 --> 01:07:32,239
you know, not just uh authority in government and administration,

815
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:41,639
but also in national life. It's uh. He was chief

816
01:07:41,679 --> 01:07:44,199
of the Italian delegation at the World War two peace

817
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:55,280
conference in Paris. Uh. You know, he remained harshly critical

818
01:07:55,320 --> 01:08:04,039
of the sanctions that remained on in poets on Italy,

819
01:08:05,599 --> 01:08:09,960
owing to various intrigues and some of which were just

820
01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:15,159
kind of born of vengeance driven sensibilities, especially considering that

821
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:18,479
you know, Italian leadership was not going to be placed

822
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:21,279
on trial or you know, or certect these kinds of

823
01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:29,119
show trial homicides under auspices of you know, justice. But

824
01:08:32,359 --> 01:08:36,840
he did gain very strong concessions from the allies that

825
01:08:37,079 --> 01:08:48,039
guaranteed Italian sovereignty, particularly as regarded the bulk and some

826
01:08:48,079 --> 01:08:53,319
of the eastern border territory was lost Yugoslavia, but the

827
01:08:53,359 --> 01:08:57,199
free territory of Trice was divided between the two two stays.

828
01:08:57,199 --> 01:09:02,760
And obviously you know, NATO meaning at that point just America,

829
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:08,920
like you know, signed on as the guardan tour of

830
01:09:08,920 --> 01:09:15,600
of these uh borders. Now back to Androtti again, this

831
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:20,000
is important to understand. I'm not boring with it, but

832
01:09:21,600 --> 01:09:26,039
let's figure out the hell I am you have my

833
01:09:26,159 --> 01:09:40,079
senior moments. Back to Androtti, Androti had achieved cabinet rank

834
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:49,840
at a very young age, and by the time, by

835
01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:54,000
by the end of his tenure, he'd he'd occupied virtual

836
01:09:54,039 --> 01:10:02,600
every major office of the post war Italian state, and

837
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:05,880
he again was seen as quite literally like the unofficial

838
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:11,319
liaison with the Vatican, you know, and foreign policy terms

839
01:10:12,239 --> 01:10:16,079
and DROUGHTI you know very much the protos vego Sperry.

840
01:10:17,079 --> 01:10:21,319
You know, he guided the European unions like Italy within

841
01:10:21,439 --> 01:10:25,319
kind of the what the ecing and the EU, and

842
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:32,960
Roti guided Italy's integration into it, and fascinating leads to

843
01:10:33,039 --> 01:10:35,920
me if you know what my kind of research interests

844
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:40,520
are and if you kind of understand the nuances of

845
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:46,039
what Gladio was to the men who staffed it, which

846
01:10:46,119 --> 01:10:49,039
was something very different than the men who conceived of

847
01:10:49,079 --> 01:10:54,920
it and wanted to utilize it for strategic purposes, you

848
01:10:54,960 --> 01:11:02,680
know that were fairly transparent and already pursued uh close

849
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:09,800
relations with the Arab world, you know, and he uh

850
01:11:10,079 --> 01:11:13,439
he had a strong, strong following not just in Italy

851
01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:18,399
but uh especially through Catholic Europe, but also like you know,

852
01:11:18,439 --> 01:11:23,199
throughout the futality, throughout the totality of what was becoming,

853
01:11:23,319 --> 01:11:32,960
uh you know, the Burgening ec EU. He substantially mediated corruption.

854
01:11:35,720 --> 01:11:39,560
He'd ow's seen the transformation of the country from you know,

855
01:11:39,600 --> 01:11:43,560
a basically rural country into literally the world's fifth largest economy.

856
01:11:44,039 --> 01:11:47,960
That's totally insane. That's only comparable, I think to like

857
01:11:48,079 --> 01:11:52,000
South Korea went from having an economic profile comparable at

858
01:11:52,359 --> 01:11:56,159
Burkina Fosso to like being like the number nine Ruld economy.

859
01:11:56,439 --> 01:12:00,439
Like granted there was like massive subsidies and infrastructural aid.

860
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:03,560
You know, that was kind of like the reward for

861
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:08,840
you know, contributing some very much and not not just

862
01:12:08,920 --> 01:12:13,840
in not not just in in in treasure, but in blood,

863
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:18,960
you know, to the Vietnam War. But it's truly remarkable

864
01:12:22,880 --> 01:12:26,640
to consider, especially when it's something that just seems like

865
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:33,079
impossible an AGV man, you know, like undercurrent historical conditions.

866
01:12:33,119 --> 01:12:43,640
But the uh his uh, he was a huge uh.

867
01:12:44,199 --> 01:12:48,800
Andrati's ops claimed that he was a neoliberal. That's kind

868
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:52,880
of like the catch that's kind of like the favored

869
01:12:53,039 --> 01:12:58,119
uh sort of slander, you know, of of of the

870
01:12:58,199 --> 01:13:02,399
of these kinds of posts war European politicians, you know,

871
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:07,800
who rejected kind of like the Keynesian model, and you know,

872
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:13,640
began to realize that this overregulation and state planning was

873
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:16,560
was quite literally crushing what remained in national industry. But

874
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:21,560
it also it was you know, it was it was

875
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:24,479
actually like you know, enslaving Europe to the dollar like

876
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:30,279
even more than a you know, even even even more

877
01:13:30,319 --> 01:13:32,279
than today. I mean by by like a wide mile,

878
01:13:32,319 --> 01:13:37,359
it's not even close. But I he was only a

879
01:13:37,399 --> 01:13:41,239
supply sider. But he you know, like I said, I think, uh,

880
01:13:42,359 --> 01:13:47,319
I you know, I don't know seriously, especially people who

881
01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:50,520
articully learned it in economics, you know when they bandied this,

882
01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:53,039
uh like, oh he was he was a neoliberal and

883
01:13:53,119 --> 01:13:54,800
like God's in the right. Do that too, that that

884
01:13:54,920 --> 01:13:57,159
means that you have no like credibility or something as

885
01:13:57,159 --> 01:14:01,439
a right winger. It's like, I don't, I you know,

886
01:14:01,560 --> 01:14:04,720
the the political was the economic and I mean that

887
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:07,079
that's that's a liberal con seed man. That's not the

888
01:14:07,079 --> 01:14:12,479
way you think of things anyway. But uh, you know

889
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:16,359
Androtti again is also his His two other kind of

890
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:21,680
big commitments were you know, staunchly supporting an the next

891
01:14:21,720 --> 01:14:27,560
thing with the Vatican, and you know, a strong hostility

892
01:14:27,640 --> 01:14:34,079
towards the Italian Commedist Italian Communist Party and the Soviet Union.

893
01:14:35,359 --> 01:14:47,159
Now remember how we're talking about the English, the British, rather,

894
01:14:47,319 --> 01:14:52,680
there's plenty of Scots and uh and the Alsterman among

895
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:58,640
the ryans of those Biostards. And how they really were

896
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:09,079
the pioneers of asymmetrical warfare well around uh, around the

897
01:15:09,159 --> 01:15:18,880
nineteen seventies, very late seventies. Look here, general Sir John Hackett,

898
01:15:19,159 --> 01:15:22,319
he was former commander in chief of the British Army

899
01:15:22,359 --> 01:15:27,840
on the Rhine, which was again they they were the

900
01:15:27,880 --> 01:15:34,000
primary UH British Army element and the inner German border. Okay.

901
01:15:35,119 --> 01:15:40,720
They were kind of the equivalent of ah of of

902
01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:48,960
of twelve twelve Black Horse, the folding Gap. Okay. He

903
01:15:49,319 --> 01:15:53,640
he confirmed over a series of interviews and like talks

904
01:15:54,239 --> 01:15:56,960
you know, at various you know, war college side venues.

905
01:15:57,239 --> 01:16:01,439
This was November sixteenth, nineteen nineties. So again you're right

906
01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:07,319
on the heels of these earlier disclosures about Gladio Well

907
01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:20,000
Hacket hack I said, have known certain terms that a contingent,

908
01:16:20,239 --> 01:16:25,920
a contingity, a contingency plant plan involving quote stay behind

909
01:16:26,079 --> 01:16:30,399
and resistance in depth was drawn up after ninety forty

910
01:16:30,399 --> 01:16:39,920
five and was absolutely essential. Okay. A proto j of

911
01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:50,680
his anthony for R. Hockley, a former commander in chief

912
01:16:50,720 --> 01:16:56,640
of NATO's UH forces in Northern Europe, which would have

913
01:16:56,680 --> 01:17:03,800
been area of operation would have been UH UH Norway, Denmark,

914
01:17:04,800 --> 01:17:12,800
the UH, the North, the Scandinavian, the North Sea. He

915
01:17:13,079 --> 01:17:21,039
uh reiterated to The Guardian magazine that yes, what General

916
01:17:21,159 --> 01:17:27,119
Hackett that suggested it was was absolutely true. Now, the

917
01:17:27,199 --> 01:17:32,720
British were big on public diplomacy in a way America wasn't,

918
01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:36,880
you know, I think a couple of years back, it's

919
01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:40,279
before there was as many options available on Twitter to

920
01:17:41,239 --> 01:17:45,520
you know, do spaces and things. And I don't believe

921
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:49,199
I've ever done on pot about it, but I've posted

922
01:17:49,239 --> 01:17:58,800
many images of the Soviet Military Power magazine that you

923
01:17:58,840 --> 01:18:03,079
could purchase in any post office and it was released

924
01:18:04,199 --> 01:18:10,880
every year from I believe eighty one until nineteen ninety.

925
01:18:12,600 --> 01:18:15,960
It was put out by the Defense Intelligence Agency. It

926
01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:19,000
was full of this incredible artwork because obviously a lot

927
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:24,079
of these weapons platforms, NATO didn't have actual photographs of them,

928
01:18:24,399 --> 01:18:30,840
but you know, they knew they existed. But this was

929
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:34,479
obviously an effort at you know, true public diplomacy, like

930
01:18:34,720 --> 01:18:41,920
educates the public on a question of policy significance or

931
01:18:43,279 --> 01:18:48,039
political goings on. You know that you know, they wouldn't

932
01:18:48,199 --> 01:18:53,399
they wouldn't ordinarily be availed to, you know, a body

933
01:18:53,439 --> 01:18:57,960
of work that could sort of explain such college matters

934
01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:01,479
and in concise terms, and that seems completely quaints like

935
01:19:01,520 --> 01:19:05,880
in the Internet era. But Britain was always big on this.

936
01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:12,560
America was less big on this, you know. But in

937
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:18,479
the Cold War there were a few kind of very

938
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:22,479
striking examples, and Soviet military power was one of them. Well,

939
01:19:22,560 --> 01:19:27,439
what the British did was and my dad had these

940
01:19:27,479 --> 01:19:29,880
books on his bookshelf as when I was a little kid,

941
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:39,439
and they only blew my fucking mind. But Sir General,

942
01:19:39,479 --> 01:19:43,439
Sir John Hackett, he wrote a book in nineteen seventy

943
01:19:43,479 --> 01:19:52,279
eight and it was marketed as a novel in America.

944
01:19:52,479 --> 01:19:55,239
I don't believe it was marketed as such in the UK.

945
01:19:55,399 --> 01:19:57,359
And in the UK it had a different epilogue, and

946
01:19:57,399 --> 01:20:01,199
we'll get into that in a minute, but it was

947
01:20:01,279 --> 01:20:06,680
called the Third World War August nineteen eighty five. It

948
01:20:06,760 --> 01:20:11,319
was a fictionalized account that reads kind of like threads

949
01:20:11,359 --> 01:20:15,239
and a threads. You know, it was a movie, but uh,

950
01:20:16,119 --> 01:20:21,319
you know the it doesn't have a traditional like fiction

951
01:20:21,479 --> 01:20:24,960
narrative structure. You know, like it'll jump to some you know,

952
01:20:25,079 --> 01:20:31,760
like warsaw packed like early warning posts you know in

953
01:20:31,800 --> 01:20:34,840
East Germany, you know, and they'll like jump to you know,

954
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:38,920
some Soviet missile base in Kazakhstan, and they'll like jump

955
01:20:38,960 --> 01:20:43,840
to like you know, the President's like situation room. But uh,

956
01:20:44,079 --> 01:20:48,840
what it basically is is it's it describes a scenario, okay,

957
01:20:51,479 --> 01:20:58,359
that being that in August nineteen eighty five, Sovie mean

958
01:20:58,399 --> 01:21:05,960
Warsaw packed the Salt Western the Uh. There's a follow

959
01:21:06,079 --> 01:21:09,840
up in nineteen eighty two called The Third World War

960
01:21:09,960 --> 01:21:16,600
The Untold Story, which elaborated on the original with some

961
01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:20,399
details of this counter faction universe, but also again like

962
01:21:20,520 --> 01:21:23,720
it it it added a kind of what I think

963
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:28,239
it was an alibi for Western for American audiences. It's fascinating,

964
01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:37,760
but for context. Some of them hack it believed in

965
01:21:39,760 --> 01:21:43,840
you know, this was the final really critical phase of

966
01:21:43,840 --> 01:21:46,399
the Cold War. You know, like seventy eight, seventy nine,

967
01:21:46,479 --> 01:21:52,279
like eighty five were able Archer era. You know, it

968
01:21:52,399 --> 01:21:57,840
was a four armed conclusion to a lot of these uh,

969
01:21:57,880 --> 01:22:00,800
a lot of these general law officers that there was

970
01:22:01,039 --> 01:22:06,640
going to be a war in Europe, Okay, and uh,

971
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:11,239
basically their job was not just to protect you know,

972
01:22:12,279 --> 01:22:14,960
the people in the United Kingdom or the people the

973
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:18,119
United States, you know, the people of Italy, you know,

974
01:22:18,439 --> 01:22:24,119
depending on the executive we're talking about, it's the folks

975
01:22:24,119 --> 01:22:28,000
of their abilities and also to you know, to do

976
01:22:28,039 --> 01:22:32,000
everything they can to fight and win in nuclear war

977
01:22:34,680 --> 01:22:38,560
for our Hockeley, who was heck gets some protege I

978
01:22:38,560 --> 01:22:44,880
mentioned a minute ago. During this time he started advocating

979
01:22:44,920 --> 01:22:50,720
strongly for the creation of a new Home Guard and

980
01:22:50,800 --> 01:22:56,479
anticipation of a potential Soviet assault. You know, the the

981
01:22:56,800 --> 01:22:58,960
Home Guard of World War two was like lampoon and

982
01:22:59,000 --> 01:23:01,079
stuff like Dad's are you know, have you've ever seen that?

983
01:23:02,279 --> 01:23:09,760
But for Hogween Haggar were serious about having able bodied

984
01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:14,560
young men, you know, like basically, uh take on the

985
01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:19,800
role of uh of a gladiol element an event, uh

986
01:23:20,079 --> 01:23:26,920
of warsaw Pact, assault of the island. Okay, So in

987
01:23:26,960 --> 01:23:29,880
the books or in the book, uh, we'll start with

988
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:35,720
kind of I think is the primary source, which is

989
01:23:35,760 --> 01:23:50,319
the first addition, and uh the Third World War untold

990
01:23:50,439 --> 01:24:01,239
story they describe uh, basically the political situation as it

991
01:24:01,359 --> 01:24:07,119
stood then in terms of you know, alliances, allegiances, then

992
01:24:07,279 --> 01:24:12,960
active battle spaces. There was some speculation about space based

993
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:16,680
weapons platforms, but otherwise it was all based on like

994
01:24:16,800 --> 01:24:20,439
forces and being you know, at then extent force levels

995
01:24:20,439 --> 01:24:24,920
and weapons systems that actually existed and could expect it

996
01:24:24,960 --> 01:24:29,560
to be performed, could expected to perform an action as

997
01:24:29,600 --> 01:24:34,199
described in the narrative. But uh, the novel starts then

998
01:24:34,720 --> 01:24:42,920
for presidential election, Walter Mondale, who's the Democratic nominee, loses

999
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:48,399
the former Governor Thompson of South Carolina, who's obviously supposed

1000
01:24:48,399 --> 01:24:55,319
to be Ronald Reagan. Okay, most of what's going on,

1001
01:24:56,479 --> 01:24:59,920
as you know, in the world situation, as it's person

1002
01:25:00,520 --> 01:25:05,800
and witnessed by like Reagan and his cabinet, is detailed

1003
01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:11,119
by you know, President Thompson's advisors, you know, who are

1004
01:25:11,159 --> 01:25:16,039
briefing him on the international situation, like from the time

1005
01:25:16,039 --> 01:25:20,319
he takes office, you know, until and then beyond the

1006
01:25:20,319 --> 01:25:24,279
outside of hostilities, you know. So at the outset of

1007
01:25:24,279 --> 01:25:33,920
the book, Uh, Asia's uh becoming a real powerhouse. They've increasingly,

1008
01:25:36,840 --> 01:25:42,800
with the accepts in North Korea and Vietnam, liberalize their

1009
01:25:42,800 --> 01:25:50,960
economies and the sort of you know, ease back from

1010
01:25:51,039 --> 01:25:57,039
any kind of political interdependence with the Soviet Union. From

1011
01:25:57,039 --> 01:26:04,000
a strategic and military perspective, China has a has like

1012
01:26:04,039 --> 01:26:07,359
a Dang type figure at the helm. It was like

1013
01:26:07,479 --> 01:26:10,520
not like a reformer kind of in like the Western

1014
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:14,960
you know, like fox democracy sense, but he's basically become

1015
01:26:15,000 --> 01:26:21,279
a hostile to communism and all but name he's trying

1016
01:26:21,319 --> 01:26:25,399
to flip UH North Korea and Vietnam against the Russia,

1017
01:26:25,479 --> 01:26:29,119
but basically buying them off, you know, and pursue UH

1018
01:26:30,239 --> 01:26:33,720
a kind of gradual you know, encircle them into the

1019
01:26:33,760 --> 01:26:41,960
Soviet Far East, the India, which is UH, the Soviet

1020
01:26:42,039 --> 01:26:46,279
Union's like only real like strong ally in the region.

1021
01:26:47,159 --> 01:26:54,399
You know, it continues to deteriorate. They're the exception to

1022
01:26:54,479 --> 01:27:04,520
like Asia's prosperous condition. It's literally the tior rating. The

1023
01:27:04,560 --> 01:27:13,359
Arab Cold War is intensifying as UH as a a

1024
01:27:13,439 --> 01:27:18,720
nacerost Uh government in Egypt that's basically you know, like

1025
01:27:18,800 --> 01:27:26,279
a left wing nationalist like some of communists adjacent dictatorship

1026
01:27:26,840 --> 01:27:35,720
is creating towards war with Saudi Arabia. South Africa has

1027
01:27:35,720 --> 01:27:40,359
become a federation, like a racially divided federation, but under

1028
01:27:40,359 --> 01:27:45,279
a Bantu bantustan system, which is basically stable but lives

1029
01:27:45,319 --> 01:27:50,319
under concerns threat by Nigeria, which is now like fully

1030
01:27:50,359 --> 01:27:54,279
committed to the South African border war. As are like

1031
01:27:54,399 --> 01:28:04,119
actual Soviet troops Ethiopia as UH all apart including Eritrea,

1032
01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:11,399
the Soviets try to show up the situation and install

1033
01:28:11,479 --> 01:28:18,119
their own proxy government but this fails, and then the

1034
01:28:18,239 --> 01:28:21,399
book shows like a world map, like what the implications

1035
01:28:21,399 --> 01:28:23,880
of all these things are like a hypothetical like you

1036
01:28:23,920 --> 01:28:28,520
know Reagan like a situation room, like on every front,

1037
01:28:28,600 --> 01:28:32,119
like the Soviets are are are losing the Cold War,

1038
01:28:33,079 --> 01:28:40,720
you know, it's uh. Meanwhile, the Pollet Burrow, which presumably

1039
01:28:44,479 --> 01:28:47,600
the trifecta of because this public is rated in seventy

1040
01:28:47,640 --> 01:28:52,199
eight the trifecta and drop off Vermiko and Ustenov is

1041
01:28:52,239 --> 01:28:55,359
kind of like the real trum Rather, they're like they're

1042
01:28:55,359 --> 01:28:58,119
the real executive of the USSR, you know, with the

1043
01:28:58,279 --> 01:29:01,520
with the increasingly kind of disabled, the version of the

1044
01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:08,800
figurehead and drop of or his like counterpart in the story,

1045
01:29:09,600 --> 01:29:13,600
he basically drops the same speech that he did in

1046
01:29:13,680 --> 01:29:17,800
eighty or eighty one where he talked about how, you know,

1047
01:29:17,840 --> 01:29:21,760
the Soviet Union was like could not compete, you know,

1048
01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:25,680
like in the information revolution, and you know, they the

1049
01:29:25,680 --> 01:29:29,760
amount of computing powder computing power in the country was pathetic,

1050
01:29:30,119 --> 01:29:32,159
you know, compared to any developed state. And if this

1051
01:29:33,640 --> 01:29:37,439
wasn't altered within a decade and remedied, like the Soyds

1052
01:29:37,439 --> 01:29:40,920
would lose the Cold War. Basically, an identical speech is

1053
01:29:40,960 --> 01:29:43,520
given by you know, the stand in for a drop

1054
01:29:43,560 --> 01:29:46,119
off or you know again the trump we just mentioned.

1055
01:29:49,319 --> 01:29:56,359
You know, the poet bro accepts these conclusions proffered by

1056
01:29:56,399 --> 01:30:01,880
this uh composite executive character or character character is kind

1057
01:30:01,880 --> 01:30:07,199
of consensus that you know, the total state nation of

1058
01:30:07,239 --> 01:30:11,279
the economy means that the Soviet armed forces will not

1059
01:30:11,399 --> 01:30:14,960
be able to retain technological parody for the with the

1060
01:30:15,000 --> 01:30:20,800
West for beyond a decade, and that the that the

1061
01:30:20,840 --> 01:30:24,359
only way like the Soviet Union can bring the Cold

1062
01:30:24,399 --> 01:30:31,239
War to a victorious conclusion is uh to assault Western Europe,

1063
01:30:31,960 --> 01:30:38,520
annihilate NATO, you know, kind of forever, banish American forces

1064
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:41,399
from the continent, you know, and then you know, the

1065
01:30:41,520 --> 01:30:47,119
super peace from a position of uh a strength and

1066
01:30:47,279 --> 01:30:54,520
uh if not benevolence. The poet through understands that those

1067
01:30:54,640 --> 01:31:00,279
resistance from NATO is guaranteed that before you state it's

1068
01:31:00,279 --> 01:31:09,199
amount of counteroffensive, the threat of the threat, especially of

1069
01:31:10,079 --> 01:31:14,079
tactical nuclear weapons and the use of chemical weapons, and

1070
01:31:14,119 --> 01:31:16,840
the potential in the case of the former of horizontaliscalation

1071
01:31:19,479 --> 01:31:23,920
will not some NATO states out of the war further

1072
01:31:24,520 --> 01:31:29,640
compromising you know, their ability to reconstitute amidst you know,

1073
01:31:29,680 --> 01:31:36,159
the massive kind of gap and numerical forces and being so,

1074
01:31:39,880 --> 01:31:44,119
the Soviet Diplomatic Corps also believes that they can cause

1075
01:31:44,119 --> 01:31:49,800
a schism in the Western Defense Court on by convincing

1076
01:31:49,880 --> 01:31:52,159
France the sty out of the conflict. Who you know,

1077
01:31:52,159 --> 01:31:54,800
France is not a NATO member. They remain adjacent, but

1078
01:31:55,359 --> 01:31:58,079
during this period of relations between NATO and France were

1079
01:31:58,079 --> 01:32:03,560
particularly frosty. The poet broad decides that there's three options

1080
01:32:03,560 --> 01:32:08,159
before them, very in a wills with a large a

1081
01:32:08,560 --> 01:32:16,640
massive preemptive nuclear strike against Europe alongside UH special as

1082
01:32:16,960 --> 01:32:22,600
paratrooper elements deployed in areas not under direct nuclear assault,

1083
01:32:22,920 --> 01:32:27,279
followed by a seven day land invasion to the Linz

1084
01:32:27,399 --> 01:32:33,199
frand for wins Frankfurt Dunkirk line. So another event is

1085
01:32:33,239 --> 01:32:38,079
so bad in any event, assault the proverbial center with

1086
01:32:38,199 --> 01:32:44,319
nuclear weapons like without regard for you know, counter value

1087
01:32:44,319 --> 01:32:51,000
attriction like assault the periphery with special operations elements, and

1088
01:32:51,039 --> 01:32:58,760
then smashed through UH. Then now it radiated you know,

1089
01:32:59,159 --> 01:33:03,000
former main line of resistance, you know, with warsaw packed armor,

1090
01:33:04,119 --> 01:33:08,479
you know. And then upon reaching UH again the lens

1091
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:14,560
Frankfurt Dunkirk lying basically within you know, a stone's throw

1092
01:33:14,640 --> 01:33:19,960
of of the ocean, you know, to demand a demand

1093
01:33:20,039 --> 01:33:30,119
Natal come to peace terms. Variant B is identically above,

1094
01:33:30,319 --> 01:33:35,800
but with full deployment of chemical weapons and high explosive

1095
01:33:35,920 --> 01:33:40,840
conventional ordinance, but a complete ban on the use of

1096
01:33:41,800 --> 01:33:51,399
nuclear weapons. Variant C would be a conventional invasion with

1097
01:33:51,560 --> 01:34:02,079
tactical nuclear strikes being employed. If if, if, if NATO

1098
01:34:02,199 --> 01:34:11,119
is able to hold before warsaw path reaches the Rhine

1099
01:34:11,560 --> 01:34:18,800
within seven days, the PO ultimately decides on Invariant C

1100
01:34:20,119 --> 01:34:26,479
to avoid horizontal escalation. And you know, the development of

1101
01:34:26,760 --> 01:34:31,319
what almost certainly would you know, snowball into a general

1102
01:34:31,439 --> 01:34:37,840
nuclear war, especially based upon the platforms then deployed and

1103
01:34:40,319 --> 01:34:47,039
the particularly kind of dangerous coupling of their their sensitivity

1104
01:34:47,079 --> 01:34:52,079
to the sensory data, but their lack of ability to

1105
01:34:52,199 --> 01:35:00,760
gauge you know, the the the true strength of forces

1106
01:35:00,800 --> 01:35:08,159
from where the you know, the enemy device detected is

1107
01:35:08,399 --> 01:35:21,159
ben emergents. You know. But uh what uh like short

1108
01:35:21,159 --> 01:35:28,840
story long, What basically carries the day for NATO is

1109
01:35:28,840 --> 01:35:32,199
like these stay behind like Gladio units and like the

1110
01:35:32,279 --> 01:35:39,680
US Marine Corps. They they were able to flip Yugoslavia

1111
01:35:40,359 --> 01:35:43,439
out of a position of neutrality into like actual hostility

1112
01:35:44,560 --> 01:35:48,640
against the Soviet Union, with the exception of like some

1113
01:35:48,880 --> 01:35:56,399
aspects of you know, uh of ethnics serves, like serving

1114
01:35:56,439 --> 01:35:59,960
in the security apparatus, you know, both police and military.

1115
01:36:01,479 --> 01:36:07,079
But you know, the uh, the Soviet Union stalls basically

1116
01:36:08,359 --> 01:36:14,079
because uh when warsaw packed uh they hit West German

1117
01:36:14,199 --> 01:36:21,279
forces at Kreenfield, attempts to chase them out of the Netherlands,

1118
01:36:22,239 --> 01:36:29,039
and compounding you know, the the setback of the the

1119
01:36:29,119 --> 01:36:33,159
high attrition they took. You know these uh, these these

1120
01:36:33,800 --> 01:36:37,079
these Dutch militias, you know like raise up and and

1121
01:36:37,199 --> 01:36:42,159
just uh and just smash. You know. Essentially these these

1122
01:36:42,159 --> 01:36:45,880
already weakened uh, the Soviet columns, you know they are

1123
01:36:47,039 --> 01:36:51,279
they're they're essentially you know, becoming kind of like dead

1124
01:36:51,439 --> 01:36:56,680
uh where they sit, going to their uh lack of

1125
01:36:56,760 --> 01:37:03,760
access to fuel. But you know, it's obvious that this

1126
01:37:03,880 --> 01:37:09,800
book was published, uh to present a scenario to the

1127
01:37:09,800 --> 01:37:12,640
British people. I mean, it's like it's like a it's

1128
01:37:12,640 --> 01:37:16,880
a policy, Uh, it's it's a war plan. It's it's

1129
01:37:16,920 --> 01:37:21,319
a work plan slash war gaming manual, coupled with uh,

1130
01:37:22,520 --> 01:37:27,520
you know, an argument in favor of you know, this

1131
01:37:27,720 --> 01:37:31,840
tactical doctorate is how Britain can best protect itself an

1132
01:37:31,840 --> 01:37:35,840
event of World War three and over this taste where

1133
01:37:35,840 --> 01:37:39,319
people might find the kind of place in such things.

1134
01:37:39,319 --> 01:37:47,840
It's essential and people need to be behind these aforementioned elements,

1135
01:37:48,319 --> 01:37:53,079
you know, for them to be effective. You know, not

1136
01:37:53,159 --> 01:37:59,279
just in you know, material and logistical terms, but in

1137
01:37:59,359 --> 01:38:05,199
terms they're rational, morale and everything else. Now it's got

1138
01:38:05,359 --> 01:38:14,199
very interesting when you know the the early four structure

1139
01:38:14,199 --> 01:38:19,039
of Gladio elements like turns out to be like like

1140
01:38:19,159 --> 01:38:24,359
out and out you know, fascists, you know, especially in Italy,

1141
01:38:25,159 --> 01:38:32,199
and there's a parallel here. I think it was Roberto

1142
01:38:32,720 --> 01:38:43,439
Fiori who was uh. I think it's the Italian the

1143
01:38:44,039 --> 01:38:49,159
Italian Liberation movement to the Italian national movements. You know,

1144
01:38:49,199 --> 01:38:53,279
the the legacy of the National Fascist Party they had

1145
01:38:53,359 --> 01:38:56,520
us gives them development in the ranks, not unlike that

1146
01:38:56,640 --> 01:39:00,439
of the national fronts, you know, into the into the

1147
01:39:00,520 --> 01:39:03,479
into the into the political, into the political soldier wing

1148
01:39:03,520 --> 01:39:06,920
and like the Flag group, which I find totally fascinating,

1149
01:39:07,800 --> 01:39:12,239
and it bears directly on what we're going through today

1150
01:39:12,399 --> 01:39:19,399
within our own within our own resistance culture. And we'll

1151
01:39:19,399 --> 01:39:23,039
get into that next episode. I'm sorry if that went

1152
01:39:23,760 --> 01:39:27,399
too long, but I'm like really tired. Otherwise I keep

1153
01:39:27,439 --> 01:39:32,920
on going. But I hope that's an acceptable stopping point.

1154
01:39:33,560 --> 01:39:35,119
There's like a lot more to take in, and this

1155
01:39:35,199 --> 01:39:37,039
is kind of a logical stopping point. You'll see what

1156
01:39:37,119 --> 01:39:39,119
I mean. We'll get in the next episode. If that's cool.

1157
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:43,319
Speaker 1: Yep, that works. Two plugs real quick from on line.

1158
01:39:44,840 --> 01:39:48,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, you'll find me on Twitter at Capital r

1159
01:39:48,720 --> 01:39:54,039
e a l underscore number seven him as seven seven seven.

1160
01:39:55,039 --> 01:39:58,520
You'll find me on substick real Thomas seven seven seven

1161
01:39:58,560 --> 01:40:01,960
at subset dot com. I got a pot on there,

1162
01:40:01,960 --> 01:40:04,560
I got long from on there, I got a Mersh line.

1163
01:40:04,560 --> 01:40:08,840
Now it should be so kind, like we drop the

1164
01:40:09,119 --> 01:40:14,600
Mersh address and on the description section, you know, buy

1165
01:40:14,640 --> 01:40:17,920
like really dope shirts and flags and stuff like that

1166
01:40:18,560 --> 01:40:23,640
that I think are really cool. My uh the artist

1167
01:40:23,720 --> 01:40:27,079
who who mocked him up, Hair Kreeg. He's he's He's

1168
01:40:27,079 --> 01:40:32,239
fucking incredible, Just an incredible dude and a fine artist.

1169
01:40:32,520 --> 01:40:35,800
I'm working on this documentary of our and Taylor. I'm

1170
01:40:35,840 --> 01:40:39,199
going to the DNC convention in a few weeks. And again,

1171
01:40:39,239 --> 01:40:41,439
I am sorry to everybody I had to miss Nashville

1172
01:40:42,479 --> 01:40:45,000
this weekend, but I got to see my strength. Man.

1173
01:40:45,039 --> 01:40:47,640
I'm sorry to sound like some like banged up freaking

1174
01:40:48,000 --> 01:40:52,640
old lady or something, but as far as my plugs

1175
01:40:52,640 --> 01:40:56,039
like seeking you so fine man in my Instagram, you know,

1176
01:40:56,079 --> 01:40:59,640
I'm all over the place. I'm trying to bear down now.

1177
01:41:00,000 --> 01:41:09,199
And you know this uh, this documentary kind of video

1178
01:41:09,199 --> 01:41:12,520
content type stuff which I which which I think is

1179
01:41:13,039 --> 01:41:15,720
not that I don't know, some pretentious. I think there's

1180
01:41:15,720 --> 01:41:18,840
a profundity to it, man, but also it's this is

1181
01:41:18,920 --> 01:41:22,520
important history that's going to be lost then. But that

1182
01:41:22,760 --> 01:41:25,399
and my manuscript is kind of like my my big

1183
01:41:25,439 --> 01:41:30,199
focus right now. But I'm always available to do pods

1184
01:41:30,239 --> 01:41:34,079
man like uh never ever hesitate to ask me. Yeah,

1185
01:41:34,119 --> 01:41:38,840
let's let's reconvene and and do part two of Lady,

1186
01:41:38,920 --> 01:41:41,359
and we should watch we should watch another movie too, man,

1187
01:41:41,439 --> 01:41:43,279
so we can.

1188
01:41:44,720 --> 01:41:48,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we're gonna do that. Well we uh while

1189
01:41:48,000 --> 01:41:49,840
we sign off, I'm gonna recommend a movie.

1190
01:41:50,880 --> 01:41:54,039
Speaker 2: Yeah man. Yeah, well thanks, yep, take care.

1191
01:41:56,319 --> 01:42:00,760
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecingano Show. Thomas,

1192
01:42:00,840 --> 01:42:01,359
how are you doing?

1193
01:42:02,000 --> 01:42:03,279
Speaker 2: And well thanks for hosting me.

1194
01:42:04,199 --> 01:42:06,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, let's get uh, let's get part two of

1195
01:42:06,920 --> 01:42:09,399
Operation Gladio going. It's been a little while, you know,

1196
01:42:09,600 --> 01:42:12,159
I've been busy and decided to take a break for

1197
01:42:12,239 --> 01:42:16,239
one episode and uh talk about current events. But yeah,

1198
01:42:16,399 --> 01:42:18,079
I'm eager for this. Let's do it.

1199
01:42:19,039 --> 01:42:23,439
Speaker 2: I think I left off talking about public diplomacy and

1200
01:42:23,520 --> 01:42:29,479
talking uh the civili about Sir John Hackett and his

1201
01:42:29,800 --> 01:42:34,119
uh you know, in his his conflict model, his predicted

1202
01:42:34,199 --> 01:42:39,520
conflict model. Those then later made available and marketed as

1203
01:42:39,760 --> 01:42:44,359
you know, in book form, you know, as a bit

1204
01:42:44,359 --> 01:42:50,640
of strategic forecasting, you know, like like fiction. And I

1205
01:42:50,680 --> 01:42:54,720
think I was discussing that to emphasize did agree to

1206
01:42:54,760 --> 01:43:03,399
which you know, convention know four structure planning returned in

1207
01:43:03,520 --> 01:43:09,319
earnest you know, not just in policy corridors, but it

1208
01:43:09,319 --> 01:43:11,640
was it was very much at the forefront of in

1209
01:43:11,680 --> 01:43:13,840
the minds of public intellectuals, you know, people at Thomas

1210
01:43:13,880 --> 01:43:19,359
shilling people you know, like like Hackett himself, you know,

1211
01:43:19,399 --> 01:43:27,039
the emergency deeper parodies and you know countermeasures uh against

1212
01:43:27,479 --> 01:43:32,279
both you know, long range nuclear weapons platforms as well

1213
01:43:32,279 --> 01:43:38,520
as theater based weapons systems, you know, led people to

1214
01:43:38,600 --> 01:43:46,239
realize that that conventional forces had had acquired a new relevancy,

1215
01:43:47,000 --> 01:43:52,399
and obviously there's a political aspect of that very much

1216
01:43:52,439 --> 01:43:57,680
related to, you know, how to manage a potential occupation

1217
01:43:57,800 --> 01:44:03,039
by Soviet forces. And that's really what that that's really

1218
01:44:03,039 --> 01:44:08,520
what gave sort of momentum to GLADIOH from something that

1219
01:44:08,600 --> 01:44:11,600
was just sort of bandied about in in think tanks

1220
01:44:11,600 --> 01:44:17,399
and and various defense ministries and in the constellation of

1221
01:44:17,560 --> 01:44:21,479
states that made up NATO, and you know, it became

1222
01:44:21,520 --> 01:44:28,680
a real essential aspect of of war planning for the

1223
01:44:28,680 --> 01:44:36,079
Western Alliance and uh, I think particularly the experience of

1224
01:44:36,199 --> 01:44:39,840
Vietnam as well as some of these experiences in in

1225
01:44:40,000 --> 01:44:43,920
Latin America and Africa. You know, you don't you don't

1226
01:44:43,920 --> 01:44:47,840
want to wait until the onset of hostilities to develop

1227
01:44:47,920 --> 01:44:51,720
what Frank Kittson called, you know, your your counterinserviancy element.

1228
01:44:51,960 --> 01:44:53,960
You know, you want that to be part of your

1229
01:44:55,560 --> 01:45:02,600
force structure and being okay, and also especially in Italy,

1230
01:45:02,800 --> 01:45:08,079
but in other states too. You know, there was a

1231
01:45:08,159 --> 01:45:16,439
radical right wing that were it not assimilated in some

1232
01:45:16,479 --> 01:45:22,920
sort of formal capacity into the into the into the

1233
01:45:22,960 --> 01:45:28,920
formal political and military structure like the former kind of

1234
01:45:29,119 --> 01:45:37,079
the formal sort of you know, conflict readiness paradigm. You know,

1235
01:45:37,119 --> 01:45:39,439
these these these people could have caused a whole lot

1236
01:45:39,439 --> 01:45:43,039
of problems, you know, I mean, they did cause problems.

1237
01:45:43,079 --> 01:45:47,159
I'm talking within the bound of rationality of old world logic.

1238
01:45:47,279 --> 01:45:50,680
I'm not rendering an absolute judgment on these people's values

1239
01:45:50,720 --> 01:45:57,119
and what they considered to be acceptable, owing to you know,

1240
01:45:57,199 --> 01:46:01,840
what was in their perception an ongoing emergency. But it

1241
01:46:01,840 --> 01:46:06,479
was an odd sort of conspiracy of historical variables, particularly

1242
01:46:06,520 --> 01:46:09,560
in the final phase of the Cold War, that you know,

1243
01:46:09,640 --> 01:46:12,800
kind of like led to this being. Is something that

1244
01:46:13,399 --> 01:46:16,760
was developed in earnest and then taken seriously by people

1245
01:46:16,840 --> 01:46:24,319
like a different a different paradigm with with less binary

1246
01:46:25,359 --> 01:46:28,800
possible outcomes and event of hostilities. It's not something that

1247
01:46:28,880 --> 01:46:33,000
really would have it sounds that really would have acquired

1248
01:46:34,039 --> 01:46:40,840
legs metaphorically speaking, you know. And and like we talked

1249
01:46:40,880 --> 01:46:44,600
about command and control, really what under like the revolution

1250
01:46:44,720 --> 01:46:47,760
and military affairs, which was a real thing. It wasn't

1251
01:46:47,880 --> 01:46:53,399
just a propaganda work to intimidate Warsaw Pact. It wasn't

1252
01:46:53,439 --> 01:46:56,520
just something that wore college types or constantly looking for

1253
01:46:56,600 --> 01:47:01,640
ways to kind of tweak not just force structure, but doctrine,

1254
01:47:02,039 --> 01:47:09,239
like kind of P NUMBERC doctrine it. It had a

1255
01:47:09,359 --> 01:47:17,239
real core of realism to it, you know, the kind

1256
01:47:17,239 --> 01:47:20,840
of the computing revolution and the emergence a true high

1257
01:47:20,880 --> 01:47:24,600
tech you know, at the very close of the nineteen seventies,

1258
01:47:24,640 --> 01:47:27,239
and they're like the very very early nineteen eighties, like

1259
01:47:27,279 --> 01:47:31,960
this changed everything. Okay, and America and NATO, they never

1260
01:47:32,079 --> 01:47:39,359
had the same kind of rigid commitment, arguably inflexible commitment

1261
01:47:39,520 --> 01:47:45,000
that the Warsaw Pact had, you know, to treating things,

1262
01:47:45,239 --> 01:47:49,600
to treating battle doctrine almost like regulation and not deviating

1263
01:47:49,680 --> 01:47:54,119
from that. You know, they didn't do that, but they

1264
01:47:54,159 --> 01:48:00,520
were similarly interested in eliminating uncertainties from the bad space

1265
01:48:00,560 --> 01:48:06,279
in terms of operational outcomes, okay, and command to control,

1266
01:48:07,199 --> 01:48:13,640
which also spills over into in devetails with situational awareness,

1267
01:48:14,039 --> 01:48:17,640
you know, up to the minute, if not the moment.

1268
01:48:18,520 --> 01:48:22,039
You know, this was a real thing. And one of

1269
01:48:22,039 --> 01:48:26,079
the things that it takes on an outside significance when

1270
01:48:26,079 --> 01:48:29,560
you're trying to control the battle space and a future

1271
01:48:29,600 --> 01:48:36,279
conflict in that capacity is there's there's outliers that are

1272
01:48:37,239 --> 01:48:41,640
unconventional in nature, Okay, both in absolute terms as well

1273
01:48:41,680 --> 01:48:46,359
as in according to the rationale of military science. Okay,

1274
01:48:47,000 --> 01:48:51,960
So you couldn't really leave these elements that were already

1275
01:48:52,000 --> 01:48:56,199
existing and kind of coalescing, you know, in Italy and

1276
01:48:56,239 --> 01:49:00,680
in the Bentalic States, to a less a degree, in

1277
01:49:00,720 --> 01:49:04,279
the Buddhist Republic, Like, you couldn't just leave these kind

1278
01:49:04,279 --> 01:49:13,920
of resurgent through or vestigial fascists and national socialist cadres.

1279
01:49:13,960 --> 01:49:15,920
You couldn't just kind of like leave them alone and

1280
01:49:16,720 --> 01:49:20,640
hope they behave themselves. You know. But then suddenly, you know,

1281
01:49:21,800 --> 01:49:26,399
when war arrives, you know, you have a problem with

1282
01:49:26,479 --> 01:49:29,680
these people. And then like while you're while you're fighting

1283
01:49:29,720 --> 01:49:37,399
the Soviet Union and warsaw packed, you know, the outcome

1284
01:49:37,399 --> 01:49:39,560
of which probably would have been decided within like seventy

1285
01:49:39,560 --> 01:49:42,399
two to one hundred hours in the initial phase. I mean,

1286
01:49:43,199 --> 01:49:45,399
you know, it just was it was a recipe for

1287
01:49:45,479 --> 01:49:48,760
disaster to say like, oh well, we're just we're just

1288
01:49:48,760 --> 01:49:52,600
going to like address this contingency when it emerges. You know,

1289
01:49:52,680 --> 01:49:57,560
that's not realistic. So that was that's something to keep

1290
01:49:57,560 --> 01:49:59,720
in mind, you know, kind of like a very different

1291
01:50:00,279 --> 01:50:05,199
initiative in terms of it's underlying reasoning, in terms of

1292
01:50:06,199 --> 01:50:09,520
you know, its application of force, and in terms of

1293
01:50:09,560 --> 01:50:12,600
its purpose, Like the Phoenix Program, I raised because people

1294
01:50:12,600 --> 01:50:16,239
act like the Phoenix programs like this sinister thing. You know,

1295
01:50:17,880 --> 01:50:21,560
there was nothing nice about it. It definitely blurred the

1296
01:50:21,560 --> 01:50:27,079
line between you know, civilian in combatant, and it pretty

1297
01:50:27,159 --> 01:50:30,600
much flew in the face of what was at least

1298
01:50:30,600 --> 01:50:34,159
formal precedent as regards the laws and customs of war

1299
01:50:35,079 --> 01:50:38,000
and what is legitimate what and who is legitimate target

1300
01:50:38,159 --> 01:50:43,920
and who is not. But there's an organic quality to

1301
01:50:46,159 --> 01:50:51,359
two doctrines that develop incident too and then anticipation of

1302
01:50:51,479 --> 01:50:57,000
armed hostilities. Okay, so they're really there wasn't some like

1303
01:50:57,199 --> 01:51:02,600
sinister thing about surrounding Edo. It wasn't some shadow government

1304
01:51:02,640 --> 01:51:05,640
waiting in the wings, because oh then NATO was actually

1305
01:51:05,800 --> 01:51:09,920
you know, occulted fascist and it's it wasn't that, you know,

1306
01:51:10,560 --> 01:51:15,279
these guys were you know, secretly indexed with the government

1307
01:51:15,319 --> 01:51:17,520
and they were just like mask reading as extremists to

1308
01:51:17,600 --> 01:51:21,640
kind of try and get an understanding of of of

1309
01:51:21,680 --> 01:51:24,760
how exactly how many people in the population at large

1310
01:51:25,119 --> 01:51:28,039
was sympathetic to these ideas and then in turn could

1311
01:51:28,039 --> 01:51:29,960
be mobilized. It was nothing like that, Okay. It was

1312
01:51:30,039 --> 01:51:35,399
very organic. Okay, whether people agree with it on ethical

1313
01:51:35,479 --> 01:51:43,279
or doctrinal terms, or not, that was essential and one

1314
01:51:43,319 --> 01:51:46,119
of the reasons one of the ways NATO survived, especially

1315
01:51:46,199 --> 01:51:49,840
after France about out, despite continuing to participate in a

1316
01:51:49,840 --> 01:51:53,239
lot of a lot of command post exercise for NATO.

1317
01:51:53,880 --> 01:51:59,760
You know, it was the nuclear question changed things, obviously,

1318
01:52:00,119 --> 01:52:00,640
but it was.

1319
01:52:00,600 --> 01:52:05,760
Speaker 3: One of the the main thing that that changed was

1320
01:52:05,800 --> 01:52:08,880
that NATO kind of developed into and one of the

1321
01:52:08,920 --> 01:52:11,840
reasons it's obsolete today among the many, but NATO kind

1322
01:52:11,840 --> 01:52:15,399
of developed into by about nineteen eighty, like late.

1323
01:52:16,920 --> 01:52:20,560
Speaker 2: Very late seventies, early eighties, it kind of morphed into

1324
01:52:20,640 --> 01:52:29,399
this sort of forum to integrate and optimize assets of

1325
01:52:29,439 --> 01:52:35,079
the several member states and in so doing also kind

1326
01:52:35,119 --> 01:52:39,640
of marshaling, mobilizing and optimizing assets that were just like

1327
01:52:39,680 --> 01:52:44,680
intrinsic to the battlespace, like literally natural features of Europe,

1328
01:52:47,159 --> 01:52:50,479
you know, within the territories that constant of the alliance,

1329
01:52:50,520 --> 01:52:54,960
as well as within spaces that were undoubtedly going to

1330
01:52:55,000 --> 01:53:02,159
be you know, the setting for future engagements nature. You know,

1331
01:53:02,399 --> 01:53:07,640
so everything from you know, setting up logistical infrastructure to

1332
01:53:07,680 --> 01:53:11,640
facilitate rapid reinforcement, you know, in terms of uh, you know,

1333
01:53:11,680 --> 01:53:18,960
homogenizing the gauge of of railroad tracking to you know,

1334
01:53:19,079 --> 01:53:26,479
making sure that the properly uh paved roads were uh

1335
01:53:27,000 --> 01:53:32,880
you know, abutted the essential uh like the essential choke

1336
01:53:32,960 --> 01:53:36,039
points as it were, where you know, NATO is likely

1337
01:53:36,079 --> 01:53:40,279
to be able to hold op for you know, for

1338
01:53:40,359 --> 01:53:44,840
at least you know, forty eight hours or so, you

1339
01:53:44,880 --> 01:53:48,119
know it. It's what an aspect of this too is

1340
01:53:48,119 --> 01:53:52,279
a utilizing the terrain a lot of a lot of

1341
01:53:52,319 --> 01:53:58,119
theater based nuclear weapons we're actually based on on farmland,

1342
01:53:58,720 --> 01:54:02,439
you know, and and getting getting these farmers to agree

1343
01:54:02,439 --> 01:54:05,560
to that, like it took some out and out bribery

1344
01:54:05,640 --> 01:54:09,039
as well as you know, very kind of aggressive political

1345
01:54:09,039 --> 01:54:13,680
finesse and I'm sure in some cases threats. But you know,

1346
01:54:13,720 --> 01:54:23,840
the human aspect of ecologies, discrete ecologies within defined territorial spaces,

1347
01:54:24,359 --> 01:54:27,159
I mean that they're not only an important answer to

1348
01:54:27,239 --> 01:54:31,079
that think may be the most important aspect. Okay, So

1349
01:54:32,800 --> 01:54:42,119
people likely to become partisans in event of warsaw Pack conquest,

1350
01:54:42,279 --> 01:54:46,039
you know, these were people who already existed, you know,

1351
01:54:46,199 --> 01:54:49,520
and kind of drilling them into a viable you know,

1352
01:54:49,680 --> 01:55:01,039
stay behind military force or paramilitary force built around you know,

1353
01:55:01,079 --> 01:55:06,039
what kind of a kind of counterinsurgent cadre structure that

1354
01:55:05,880 --> 01:55:10,439
that only tracked with like the overall disposition of what

1355
01:55:10,560 --> 01:55:19,079
constanted preperedness and what constituted adequate force structures you know,

1356
01:55:19,199 --> 01:55:23,800
to survive, if not actually defeat were saw packed in

1357
01:55:24,000 --> 01:55:30,399
uh in general uh war conventional or otherwise. You know.

1358
01:55:30,800 --> 01:55:37,439
So these uh, these guys in the Italian social movement,

1359
01:55:38,920 --> 01:55:41,640
you know, these these these these national socialist guys who

1360
01:55:44,079 --> 01:55:48,039
you know already had kind of a self structure their own,

1361
01:55:49,760 --> 01:55:55,840
you know, these these uh, these guys who were affiliated

1362
01:55:55,880 --> 01:56:00,000
with the non traditional conservative elements, but like we're very

1363
01:56:00,159 --> 01:56:06,199
much you know, engaged in the Cold War. Like these

1364
01:56:06,239 --> 01:56:09,880
people had to be brought into the fold in some way,

1365
01:56:09,880 --> 01:56:17,680
shape or form, Okay, And this had precedents, I mean

1366
01:56:17,720 --> 01:56:20,399
even in Europe, you know obviously like both the exists

1367
01:56:20,399 --> 01:56:23,119
and the Allies. You know, you're talking about OSS or

1368
01:56:23,199 --> 01:56:28,760
the the od there the Ladder, which had all kinds

1369
01:56:28,760 --> 01:56:35,880
of problems and was shot through with with with some outtraders.

1370
01:56:35,880 --> 01:56:41,079
But there's also some you know, there's there were some

1371
01:56:41,159 --> 01:56:45,960
aspects of it, particularly I don't know how intelligence agencies

1372
01:56:46,039 --> 01:56:49,000
like break down what would be the equivalent of an

1373
01:56:49,079 --> 01:56:51,720
order of battle, but there were there were there were

1374
01:56:51,760 --> 01:56:55,399
company level elements, if that's the proper way to conceptualize it,

1375
01:56:56,520 --> 01:57:00,279
who had no truck with Canarists, had no only idea

1376
01:57:00,359 --> 01:57:04,439
he was even you know, conspiring against the fear and

1377
01:57:04,479 --> 01:57:08,039
the party, you know, who were very much engaged in

1378
01:57:09,000 --> 01:57:13,680
doing things like you know, identifying chet Nicks that you know,

1379
01:57:13,920 --> 01:57:16,199
we're we're not just fighting the Partisans, but you know,

1380
01:57:16,239 --> 01:57:19,359
we're also fighting other factions at chet Nicks and basically

1381
01:57:19,439 --> 01:57:25,119
found themselves you know, adjacent to uh, the access powers

1382
01:57:25,119 --> 01:57:27,680
and theater and what they want to accomplish, you know.

1383
01:57:27,720 --> 01:57:32,199
And and these guys are brought in the fold okay,

1384
01:57:32,840 --> 01:57:37,640
America obviously OSS and and British secret intelligence. They're constantly

1385
01:57:37,640 --> 01:57:42,439
trying to they're constantly trying to identify, you know, French

1386
01:57:42,520 --> 01:57:45,560
resistance types who they could insist, you know, we're not

1387
01:57:45,640 --> 01:57:48,239
actually communists. And they were failing at that in terms

1388
01:57:48,239 --> 01:57:51,159
of ideological bonafides. But that's not the reason why like

1389
01:57:51,199 --> 01:57:53,600
the Gaul becomes such an important front man to them.

1390
01:57:53,640 --> 01:57:56,319
It's not that these it's not these like partisans stay

1391
01:57:56,359 --> 01:57:58,960
behind elements in France, like just like a level of

1392
01:57:59,039 --> 01:58:02,600
trills to golf so much. It's that, uh, you know,

1393
01:58:02,640 --> 01:58:06,920
in the Anglophone world especially, he could be held out

1394
01:58:06,960 --> 01:58:10,880
as kind of a catalyzing figure that the people would accept,

1395
01:58:10,920 --> 01:58:13,960
you know, and when the when the reality of uh,

1396
01:58:15,079 --> 01:58:17,960
when the reality of of of the elements that you know,

1397
01:58:18,000 --> 01:58:22,640
supposedly he inspired and upon his you know stage return

1398
01:58:22,720 --> 01:58:24,880
to France to be the commander of it. I mean

1399
01:58:25,159 --> 01:58:27,680
often these people had like no trouble them whatsoever. But

1400
01:58:29,560 --> 01:58:33,680
you know, it's the it's the appearance, uh that matters,

1401
01:58:33,720 --> 01:58:38,079
and the ability to you know, finesses that people will

1402
01:58:38,119 --> 01:58:47,399
basically accept it. You know. The U in nineteen forty seven,

1403
01:58:48,920 --> 01:58:51,279
that's kind of the critical year in my opinion, and

1404
01:58:51,359 --> 01:58:55,800
in terms of like the first real kind of the

1405
01:58:55,800 --> 01:59:02,319
first real kind of like integrated NATO war planning what

1406
01:59:02,439 --> 01:59:09,720
became NATO, This this kind of like integrated operational structure

1407
01:59:10,439 --> 01:59:15,800
sort of like emerged, you know. It was nineteen forty

1408
01:59:15,840 --> 01:59:22,760
seven in France, the United Kingdom, the Benelux states. They

1409
01:59:25,000 --> 01:59:31,119
they had commissioned well came to me known as the

1410
01:59:31,199 --> 01:59:36,159
quote Western Union Clandestine Committee, which technically was just kind

1411
01:59:36,159 --> 01:59:39,760
of like this academic forum of like military officers and

1412
01:59:40,239 --> 01:59:46,359
conflict specialists in military science types. But it was its

1413
01:59:46,399 --> 01:59:50,520
work was informing policy in a direct way. It was

1414
01:59:50,520 --> 01:59:58,479
like a direct pipeline to the several defense departments of

1415
01:59:58,479 --> 02:00:02,399
of post war Europe. And one of the first things

1416
02:00:02,439 --> 02:00:07,399
they did was create at least on at least formally,

1417
02:00:08,600 --> 02:00:13,760
was create a joint policy and stay behind elements, you know.

1418
02:00:16,119 --> 02:00:21,800
And this was what was presented by the Europeans in

1419
02:00:22,399 --> 02:00:24,800
ninety fifty one, after you know, NATO had formally come

1420
02:00:24,840 --> 02:00:30,000
to existence, that this whole, this format, this Clandestine Committee,

1421
02:00:30,800 --> 02:00:34,479
it was basically formally assimilated into in the NATO or

1422
02:00:34,520 --> 02:00:40,439
on ninety fifty one, fifty two, okay, and that's when

1423
02:00:40,640 --> 02:00:46,000
Supreme Allied Commander Europe, you know, in other words, you know,

1424
02:00:46,039 --> 02:00:55,520
the Americans, they they established they were own kind of

1425
02:00:55,520 --> 02:01:00,479
assimile of it, which was also like you know, had

1426
02:01:00,560 --> 02:01:11,960
jurisdiction over earlier incarnations such as the Western Union Klindestine Committee.

1427
02:01:13,359 --> 02:01:20,800
They UH she Supreme Allied Command Commander Europe UH branded

1428
02:01:20,800 --> 02:01:26,600
this UH committee the quote Clandestine Planning Committee, and it

1429
02:01:26,680 --> 02:01:30,640
was housed at Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers in Europe. I mean,

1430
02:01:30,640 --> 02:01:33,319
this was taken very seriously, you know, and of course

1431
02:01:33,359 --> 02:01:37,039
America at that time was was engaged in Korea in

1432
02:01:37,079 --> 02:01:41,399
a very a very brutal war, you know, and not

1433
02:01:41,399 --> 02:01:45,279
not just was not was America engaged against you know,

1434
02:01:45,319 --> 02:01:47,399
the North Korean Army, but you know they were engaged

1435
02:01:47,399 --> 02:01:50,760
against the Chinese people of Origion Army. Okay, this was

1436
02:01:51,520 --> 02:02:00,520
very critical time. The peacetime role obviously of uh the

1437
02:02:00,560 --> 02:02:07,560
Glendeston Planning Committee, you know what a basically to coordinate

1438
02:02:08,079 --> 02:02:12,760
the different military and paramilitary plans and kind of conceptual

1439
02:02:12,840 --> 02:02:17,359
paradigms in the several states and adjacent partners states like

1440
02:02:17,399 --> 02:02:20,760
you know, Switchland to Austria and then later France in

1441
02:02:20,840 --> 02:02:24,279
order to both like avoid you know, like duplicate committees.

1442
02:02:25,840 --> 02:02:31,279
You know that, especially in military capacities at the command level,

1443
02:02:31,319 --> 02:02:33,840
at the general command level, you can't have like, as

1444
02:02:33,840 --> 02:02:35,800
it said, too many cooks in the kitchen without every

1445
02:02:35,920 --> 02:02:44,600
real problems. Okay, So Supreme l i'd command. They were

1446
02:02:44,680 --> 02:02:47,399
sending a message like, look, you know that that's not

1447
02:02:47,560 --> 02:02:49,840
happening what we just described. You're not You're not all

1448
02:02:49,840 --> 02:02:53,359
going to develop your own policy on houses coordinated. There's

1449
02:02:53,359 --> 02:02:56,279
gonna be one policy. It's it's going to be an

1450
02:02:56,319 --> 02:02:59,720
integrated command and control structure, and it's going to be

1451
02:02:59,720 --> 02:03:07,960
treated basically like any other like any other NATO Branch

1452
02:03:08,720 --> 02:03:17,840
Combat Element. Okay, there is two groups formed within uh

1453
02:03:18,439 --> 02:03:24,479
this uh, this clandestine Planning Committee, one of which was

1454
02:03:24,640 --> 02:03:33,760
uh pretty much exclusively focused on on communications, you know,

1455
02:03:33,840 --> 02:03:42,760
and and homogenizing language fluency and familiarity with you know,

1456
02:03:43,159 --> 02:03:51,000
essentially uh, the platforms, the weapons platforms, the command and

1457
02:03:51,039 --> 02:03:58,239
control technologies, everything else you know that was agreed upon

1458
02:03:58,279 --> 02:04:00,479
to be utilized. One of the we this is a

1459
02:04:00,479 --> 02:04:09,119
warsaw pact was that you know, German uh like not

1460
02:04:09,239 --> 02:04:13,800
spell folks. Army officers probably above the equivalent of captain,

1461
02:04:14,279 --> 02:04:16,920
like most of them had at least some fluency in Russian.

1462
02:04:17,319 --> 02:04:20,840
Like most Russians did not speak speak German. You know,

1463
02:04:20,920 --> 02:04:23,880
most of the Germans did not speak Polish. You know.

1464
02:04:23,960 --> 02:04:29,359
The uh you had the the Baltic people, a lot

1465
02:04:29,359 --> 02:04:33,479
of them spoke like neither Russian nor German. You know.

1466
02:04:33,720 --> 02:04:39,199
So there was this this uh led to kind of

1467
02:04:39,199 --> 02:04:43,039
like a house divided, I mean commanding control level that's fataled.

1468
02:04:44,199 --> 02:04:47,560
So NATO, you know, they they integrated their rank structure,

1469
02:04:48,119 --> 02:04:51,800
you know, these like formal equivalents of uh like like

1470
02:04:51,840 --> 02:04:55,399
what like uh, well like an E three is six

1471
02:04:55,439 --> 02:05:02,840
and everything. Okay, they uh it was you know they

1472
02:05:03,039 --> 02:05:07,079
it was decided you know, like in what command, I

1473
02:05:07,079 --> 02:05:09,840
mean different commands, like different languages would be favored like

1474
02:05:09,880 --> 02:05:15,439
within that command based on you know, the the the

1475
02:05:15,199 --> 02:05:20,880
the ethnic constitution of primary elements in theater. But uh,

1476
02:05:21,600 --> 02:05:26,720
basically like fluency, basic fluency and like German or English

1477
02:05:26,880 --> 02:05:34,720
like was was essential. You know, they're uh, there was

1478
02:05:34,760 --> 02:05:38,439
an integration of uh, like the main battle tanks used

1479
02:05:39,079 --> 02:05:45,199
you know, like uh back then, Uh, it was less complicated.

1480
02:05:45,640 --> 02:05:49,159
It was far more brutal and perilous to like be

1481
02:05:49,239 --> 02:05:53,039
part of a tank crew, but it was comparatively like

1482
02:05:53,079 --> 02:05:56,079
little tech compared to like we'd used to. But you know,

1483
02:05:56,159 --> 02:05:58,760
like they you know, like American tank crew has become

1484
02:05:58,800 --> 02:06:01,680
familiar with you know, like we like British tanks and

1485
02:06:01,760 --> 02:06:04,880
vice versa, and like both would you know, become familiar

1486
02:06:04,960 --> 02:06:09,880
with you know, like German panthers that were in heaviest

1487
02:06:09,880 --> 02:06:15,319
deployment and things like that. You know, So similarly, you know,

1488
02:06:18,800 --> 02:06:22,119
the way this the dis vision towards stay behind elements

1489
02:06:22,159 --> 02:06:29,520
and partisans was was homogenized, you know, and and brought

1490
02:06:29,560 --> 02:06:37,000
into this homogenization process of of command and control. And

1491
02:06:37,000 --> 02:06:42,560
in addition to that working group that you know focused

1492
02:06:42,600 --> 02:06:50,199
on communication and networks and everything else. There's another working

1493
02:06:50,239 --> 02:06:53,359
group you know, or committee if you will, called the

1494
02:06:53,399 --> 02:06:58,319
Special Projects Branch, and that basically you would it would

1495
02:06:58,399 --> 02:07:02,520
work a different scenarios, okay, I know it. Try and determine, okay,

1496
02:07:02,560 --> 02:07:05,199
like what what what? What are the capabilities of these

1497
02:07:05,239 --> 02:07:07,640
stay of these stay behind units, Like what can they

1498
02:07:07,680 --> 02:07:13,760
actually do? You know? What's their mission orientation? And concrete terms,

1499
02:07:14,239 --> 02:07:16,520
you know, like what what are they? What are they?

1500
02:07:16,520 --> 02:07:18,279
What are they trying to strike at? You know, like

1501
02:07:18,319 --> 02:07:21,439
are they trying to are they trying to index with

1502
02:07:21,640 --> 02:07:26,279
civilian elements that can either be cajoled into cooperating with

1503
02:07:26,359 --> 02:07:29,319
them or who are naturally disposed to be friendly to

1504
02:07:29,319 --> 02:07:31,760
them anyway? You know? Basically, are they like a European

1505
02:07:31,880 --> 02:07:35,399
Viet cong except on the right? Are they? Are they

1506
02:07:35,439 --> 02:07:39,119
basically like a reserve element so that when you know,

1507
02:07:39,199 --> 02:07:42,720
mass casualties occur, like these guys can basic rush to

1508
02:07:42,760 --> 02:07:48,319
the front and and and and fill the roles of regulars,

1509
02:07:48,720 --> 02:07:54,600
like are they is their function basically like partisan attacks

1510
02:07:54,600 --> 02:07:59,760
and terrorism, you know, against the East German and Soviet

1511
02:07:59,840 --> 02:08:08,560
and check who occupiers or whatever, and so the Special

1512
02:08:08,600 --> 02:08:20,800
Projects Branch, you know, like clarified this stuff. Okay, Eventually

1513
02:08:20,840 --> 02:08:27,000
this became integrated in UH in nineteen fifty seven, and

1514
02:08:27,039 --> 02:08:30,479
I I think that's really when UH, that's really when

1515
02:08:30,520 --> 02:08:32,760
like NATO came into its own and that's when still

1516
02:08:32,800 --> 02:08:38,359
people were banning about, especially people who did not want,

1517
02:08:39,399 --> 02:08:43,359
especially people who favored like a demilitarization in Germany, you know,

1518
02:08:43,479 --> 02:08:46,439
like the United States and warsaw packs basically out of Europe.

1519
02:08:47,079 --> 02:08:49,439
And their notion was, well, we can create our own

1520
02:08:49,479 --> 02:08:53,479
collective security arrangement with with with without European defense community,

1521
02:08:54,600 --> 02:08:57,800
you know, consisting like the Benelux states, you know, like Germany,

1522
02:08:58,000 --> 02:09:04,000
ideally France, you know, Italy and the UK. And the

1523
02:09:04,079 --> 02:09:08,319
idea was that it would be a totally integrated structure

1524
02:09:08,520 --> 02:09:11,239
and it wouldn't represent like anyone nation. Like one of

1525
02:09:11,279 --> 02:09:14,199
the reasons why I like the BUNDESLH like their uniform

1526
02:09:14,239 --> 02:09:16,520
seems so like dull and there's not even anything like

1527
02:09:16,520 --> 02:09:21,680
about them, that's like, other than the fact that cuff

1528
02:09:21,800 --> 02:09:25,399
titles are still in use, you can't really tell that

1529
02:09:25,760 --> 02:09:29,680
they're like a German army. But the whole the uniforms

1530
02:09:29,680 --> 02:09:35,239
they adopted ultimately was in this era like fifty seven

1531
02:09:36,000 --> 02:09:39,880
and that was like deliberate because the idea was like, Okay,

1532
02:09:39,880 --> 02:09:42,520
this is like the Army of Europe, but we've also

1533
02:09:42,560 --> 02:09:44,239
got to like make it clear that there's not any

1534
02:09:44,319 --> 02:09:48,279
quot unquote like chauvinistic tendencies like avafan SS you know,

1535
02:09:48,359 --> 02:09:52,119
but where you know, where we're kind of just like

1536
02:09:52,119 --> 02:09:59,960
this like European Defense Force and in a in parliament

1537
02:10:00,199 --> 02:10:08,119
committees across the proposed member states. The conceptionally like it

1538
02:10:08,159 --> 02:10:12,600
gained some some ground, but you know it it proved

1539
02:10:12,600 --> 02:10:19,279
basically unworkable, particularly after you know, the things things changed

1540
02:10:19,319 --> 02:10:23,560
in Berlin and it was clear that you know, really

1541
02:10:23,600 --> 02:10:27,439
after Korea in my opinion, and some other things, but

1542
02:10:27,560 --> 02:10:30,319
it became clear that like the Soviets were not they

1543
02:10:31,279 --> 02:10:36,560
and they had no more good faith credibility and as

1544
02:10:36,560 --> 02:10:39,600
of the Soviets Sovits, we're never gonna leave Germany, okay,

1545
02:10:39,640 --> 02:10:44,520
and Berlin particularly it wasn't just like the coveted sort

1546
02:10:44,560 --> 02:10:49,079
of prize on the on the war map, but it

1547
02:10:49,119 --> 02:10:52,479
was it was a thorn in the side of warsaw Pack,

1548
02:10:52,640 --> 02:10:54,560
just like Cuba was a huge thorn in the side

1549
02:10:54,600 --> 02:11:01,119
of you know, the United States. But it that by

1550
02:11:01,239 --> 02:11:04,000
you know, by like nineteen sixty sixty one. I know,

1551
02:11:04,159 --> 02:11:09,439
nobody was talking about a European Defense Committee anymore. But

1552
02:11:12,000 --> 02:11:17,079
one of the things that one of the things that

1553
02:11:17,159 --> 02:11:24,039
came out of kind of this experimental like military culture

1554
02:11:24,039 --> 02:11:32,359
on the continent was the establishment of a combined the

1555
02:11:32,439 --> 02:11:37,920
Six Powers Lions Committee is the United States, United Kingdom, France,

1556
02:11:38,720 --> 02:11:42,479
Benelux countries, you know, all of whom again had been

1557
02:11:42,520 --> 02:11:51,399
involved in developing developing a war plan in doctrinal paradigm

1558
02:11:51,399 --> 02:11:58,880
for the stay behind organizations. But you know when when

1559
02:11:58,880 --> 02:12:06,119
this when the Six Powers Committee like formally convened, which

1560
02:12:06,159 --> 02:12:09,720
became the quote Allied Clandestine Committee, and its final iteration

1561
02:12:09,800 --> 02:12:13,760
of nineteen seventy six was the quote Allied Coordination Committee.

1562
02:12:15,319 --> 02:12:18,600
It literally its functions like the way people described it,

1563
02:12:19,760 --> 02:12:24,680
you know, I'm talking about you know, top NATO brass

1564
02:12:25,640 --> 02:12:29,920
as well as you know, civilian elements, you know, like

1565
02:12:29,960 --> 02:12:32,319
in the in the Bundust Republic government who were like

1566
02:12:32,439 --> 02:12:44,279
indexed with the NATO structure. They uh, they uh, they

1567
02:12:44,359 --> 02:12:48,359
refer to it as specifically, you know, the technical committee

1568
02:12:48,359 --> 02:12:54,680
to bring stay by the organizations together and clearly defined

1569
02:12:55,239 --> 02:13:01,119
like their mission, mandate, force structure and all of that. Okay,

1570
02:13:05,720 --> 02:13:10,640
what was the authority of a supreme all command in Europe,

1571
02:13:11,159 --> 02:13:16,359
and it was basically godlike within its dominion. You know,

1572
02:13:18,920 --> 02:13:21,520
That's one of the things. I mean when you signed

1573
02:13:21,520 --> 02:13:25,920
on for NATO, you signed on to go all in

1574
02:13:27,640 --> 02:13:30,399
when war arrived, were saw packed. I mean you also

1575
02:13:30,680 --> 02:13:38,720
agreed not just tacitly, but in a very what what

1576
02:13:38,720 --> 02:13:45,720
what what would become a very active, actively engaged capacity

1577
02:13:46,439 --> 02:13:49,479
of you know, not just allowing like theater based nuclear

1578
02:13:49,520 --> 02:13:53,359
weapons to be based on your territory, but like essentially

1579
02:13:53,560 --> 02:13:59,279
UH allowing UH America to have you know, control over

1580
02:13:59,279 --> 02:14:01,000
these munitions, you know, I mean it was just like

1581
02:14:01,039 --> 02:14:03,199
one example, I mean at the point somebody the other

1582
02:14:03,319 --> 02:14:11,479
day like when the when when these intermediate range platforms

1583
02:14:11,640 --> 02:14:15,560
plitsic mental platforms arrived in Europe and went platforms like

1584
02:14:15,560 --> 02:14:19,479
the person too, which people find odd these days, but

1585
02:14:19,680 --> 02:14:22,600
was you know the army had was it was an

1586
02:14:22,680 --> 02:14:29,000
army weapons platform like at the folded Gap, it was

1587
02:14:29,039 --> 02:14:36,760
a loof off flowed that retained control over the launch mechanism.

1588
02:14:37,560 --> 02:14:41,000
It was the Americans who retained physical custody of the warheads.

1589
02:14:41,800 --> 02:14:44,880
And you know, if an order came down, you know,

1590
02:14:44,920 --> 02:14:48,439
those wards actually married to their launch vehicles. But I mean,

1591
02:14:48,479 --> 02:14:51,399
obviously it was it was America who had the final

1592
02:14:51,479 --> 02:15:02,920
say on these things, you know, but it uh the

1593
02:15:03,079 --> 02:15:06,319
UH and this is pretty openly talked about, at least

1594
02:15:06,319 --> 02:15:13,920
within within within NATO command corridors. I mean, some of

1595
02:15:13,960 --> 02:15:18,600
the languages was deliberately ambiguous. But it's not. It wasn't

1596
02:15:18,600 --> 02:15:21,520
this like eyes only thing where people would claim like

1597
02:15:21,560 --> 02:15:26,079
it didn't exist, you know, which is kind of interesting.

1598
02:15:26,640 --> 02:15:30,359
And that's why, like when what it came to be

1599
02:15:30,439 --> 02:15:33,279
colloquially and kind of flippantly known as you know, like

1600
02:15:33,319 --> 02:15:36,439
the Years of Lead and Italy jumped off. That's one

1601
02:15:36,479 --> 02:15:40,439
of the reasons why a lot of the media establishment,

1602
02:15:42,000 --> 02:15:50,199
you know, found uh allied command structures to basically be culpable.

1603
02:15:50,800 --> 02:15:52,640
I mean, if you there's a whole other issue, we'd

1604
02:15:52,640 --> 02:15:54,760
probably to get in that another episode, like what were

1605
02:15:54,760 --> 02:15:58,039
the Years of Lead? Like were these were these were

1606
02:15:58,039 --> 02:16:01,920
these self described like fascist?

1607
02:16:02,840 --> 02:16:05,079
Speaker 1: I mean they were they were allied with the Red

1608
02:16:05,199 --> 02:16:07,560
Army Froction, the Red Army Froction, and so.

1609
02:16:08,439 --> 02:16:11,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, some of them were definitely, Yeah, some of them

1610
02:16:11,640 --> 02:16:13,760
it's not clear who they were. And some of them

1611
02:16:13,800 --> 02:16:17,960
the guys they arrested, it doesn't really track. It was

1612
02:16:18,000 --> 02:16:20,520
like who they could blame these things on, you know,

1613
02:16:20,600 --> 02:16:24,079
but assuming as you know, but the some of the

1614
02:16:24,119 --> 02:16:27,279
subs probably don't like. The claim was that you know,

1615
02:16:27,359 --> 02:16:31,960
this this quote unquote like neo fascist terrorism, which killed

1616
02:16:31,960 --> 02:16:36,200
a lot of people. The claim was that, well, these

1617
02:16:36,200 --> 02:16:43,200
are the stay behind organizations, you know, NATO and these

1618
02:16:43,239 --> 02:16:48,079
you know, right wing governments. They're directing these attacks to

1619
02:16:48,239 --> 02:16:54,239
happen so as to procure you know, like a permanent

1620
02:16:54,239 --> 02:16:58,559
emergency mandate, you know, to basically like militarize the country

1621
02:16:58,600 --> 02:17:06,479
in perpetuity. I mean that's not impossible, but I mean

1622
02:17:08,719 --> 02:17:14,000
the late seventies, early eighties, when you had the Soviet

1623
02:17:14,120 --> 02:17:18,879
Union from a few hundred kilometers away, you know, like

1624
02:17:20,479 --> 02:17:32,399
pointing pointing these like massive i RBMs at Western Europe,

1625
02:17:33,239 --> 02:17:39,040
you know, that had multiple warheads that you know, when

1626
02:17:39,040 --> 02:17:43,079
they hit their target would just like devastate the entire country.

1627
02:17:43,639 --> 02:17:46,840
In the case of like these smaller states, I mean,

1628
02:17:46,840 --> 02:17:48,319
like it's not if you want people to if you

1629
02:17:48,319 --> 02:17:51,000
want to create some sort of like balance of terror

1630
02:17:53,159 --> 02:17:58,319
at in you know, at scale such that you know

1631
02:17:58,360 --> 02:18:02,760
it provides like a catalyst for martial law, I mean,

1632
02:18:02,840 --> 02:18:06,440
you can you don't need to kill eighty people in

1633
02:18:06,479 --> 02:18:10,360
a train station bombing in nineteen eighty. You can say that, like, well,

1634
02:18:10,680 --> 02:18:14,200
the Soviets have targeted us for annihilation and obviously based

1635
02:18:14,239 --> 02:18:19,959
on the deployment pattern, like they now believe that, uh,

1636
02:18:20,639 --> 02:18:24,239
that nuclear that first use of nuclear weapons is perfectly

1637
02:18:24,280 --> 02:18:28,719
acceptable as a means of accomplishing their goals by by

1638
02:18:28,959 --> 02:18:32,840
megacittle force of arms. I mean you ok, there you go.

1639
02:18:33,319 --> 02:18:35,159
You know, like the Soviets gonna kill us all if

1640
02:18:35,159 --> 02:18:39,680
we don't build countermeasures and and and mass arrest people

1641
02:18:39,719 --> 02:18:43,920
who are are not willing to support, you know, the

1642
02:18:43,959 --> 02:18:47,559
war effort when it comes, Like, there's ways, there's ways

1643
02:18:47,600 --> 02:18:50,000
you can do it in epoch or could have done it,

1644
02:18:51,000 --> 02:18:53,200
Like you don't need to like pull off a spectacular

1645
02:18:54,719 --> 02:18:58,079
you know, a series of bombings or shootings and like

1646
02:18:58,200 --> 02:19:00,399
kill a few hundred year own countrymen. Like that's not

1647
02:19:01,799 --> 02:19:04,520
and again it's not impossible, but it just kind of

1648
02:19:04,559 --> 02:19:11,159
defies credibility to me in the absence some more concrete evidence.

1649
02:19:17,479 --> 02:19:25,280
And again this was this was discussed very openly. It

1650
02:19:25,319 --> 02:19:31,000
like US Army at the US Army War College. This

1651
02:19:31,159 --> 02:19:34,719
was circulated later. I mean, it's still in the Cold War.

1652
02:19:35,479 --> 02:19:42,200
I don't know when it first emerged, but there was

1653
02:19:42,280 --> 02:19:47,559
a there was a document like a study put out

1654
02:19:47,600 --> 02:19:58,520
by Supreme Ali Command Europe that from the Supreme Headquarters

1655
02:19:58,520 --> 02:20:03,000
of the Light Powers in Europe. It was titled Supreme

1656
02:20:04,440 --> 02:20:09,479
Headquarters Powers in Europe Problems Outstanding with the quote standing Group.

1657
02:20:11,360 --> 02:20:17,799
There's a subheading number four titled quote special Plans and

1658
02:20:17,920 --> 02:20:27,399
quite literally it it it was Taylor to address, uh, like,

1659
02:20:27,440 --> 02:20:31,159
the DeLine the literal delineation of responsibilities of the quote

1660
02:20:31,159 --> 02:20:38,200
clandestine services. And it went on to say, you know,

1661
02:20:38,360 --> 02:20:44,120
quote the delineation of responsibilities that's a premium and commanded

1662
02:20:44,200 --> 02:20:51,159
Europe on clandestine matters, including quote pertinent definitions and organizations

1663
02:20:51,520 --> 02:20:56,680
and principles for unorthodox warfare planning. You know. So this

1664
02:20:56,920 --> 02:21:00,040
was really at the forefront. And again I don't I

1665
02:21:00,520 --> 02:21:04,680
don't want to go too far afield because this is

1666
02:21:04,680 --> 02:21:07,680
already a dense topic. But you've got to understand the

1667
02:21:07,799 --> 02:21:13,440
overall as the Soviets approach to nuclear parody and arguably

1668
02:21:14,920 --> 02:21:22,159
you know, shot past NATO and specifically United States in

1669
02:21:22,280 --> 02:21:30,360
terms of its strategic nuclear capability. Yeah, like America developing

1670
02:21:32,159 --> 02:21:37,639
countermeasures that you know, characterized by deep parrot what's called

1671
02:21:37,680 --> 02:21:44,559
deep parodies. You know, arguably that kind of neutralized Soviet

1672
02:21:44,559 --> 02:21:49,120
advantages owing to smarter and higher tech. But like, regardless

1673
02:21:49,120 --> 02:21:50,920
of the nuclear weapons are off the table or not,

1674
02:21:51,840 --> 02:21:55,879
even if horizontal escalation was like an inevitability, even you

1675
02:21:55,879 --> 02:21:59,879
could prove that World War three was going to start

1676
02:22:00,719 --> 02:22:08,280
with a conventional like combined arms fight across a massive front,

1677
02:22:08,559 --> 02:22:15,879
and casualties were gonna be utterly horrifying. One of the reasons, uh,

1678
02:22:15,959 --> 02:22:19,879
the tankers on the North German plane, which was mostly

1679
02:22:19,920 --> 02:22:24,879
a British Army area of operation conto the Folded Gap,

1680
02:22:25,360 --> 02:22:29,319
you know, which was patrolled by eleventh Army Calory. You know,

1681
02:22:29,399 --> 02:22:33,760
black Horse is like the lead element. These guys are

1682
02:22:33,799 --> 02:22:36,600
totally knowing certain terms, you know they I mean, they

1683
02:22:36,600 --> 02:22:39,799
were issued in phetamines on the regular. You know you're

1684
02:22:39,799 --> 02:22:41,879
gonna you're gonna have Our job is to hold for

1685
02:22:41,920 --> 02:22:45,719
seventy two hours and you're not gonna survive this. But

1686
02:22:45,879 --> 02:22:52,319
we will hold for seventy two hours without sleep, you know,

1687
02:22:52,600 --> 02:22:57,239
and kill as many, kill as many of Ivan's tanks

1688
02:22:57,319 --> 02:23:01,200
as we can before we get over run. And we

1689
02:23:01,239 --> 02:23:07,559
will get overrun, you know. And the thought was it

1690
02:23:07,639 --> 02:23:09,799
wasn't the thought it was I think it was pretty

1691
02:23:09,840 --> 02:23:15,200
well grounded and based on the inputs that were utilized,

1692
02:23:16,319 --> 02:23:22,920
which for the time was was correct. Within six to

1693
02:23:23,040 --> 02:23:29,440
seven days Warsaw pack that had reached the Rhine, and

1694
02:23:30,520 --> 02:23:35,520
around ninety two ninety three when the old Soviet archives

1695
02:23:35,520 --> 02:23:39,680
that brief period they were basically open, you know, to

1696
02:23:39,799 --> 02:23:45,920
Western historians, including mister Irving, it was pretty clear that

1697
02:23:45,959 --> 02:23:49,520
the Soviets planned once they reached the Rhine to stop,

1698
02:23:50,840 --> 02:23:56,639
to reconstitute, regroup and refit, and then presumably like demand

1699
02:23:56,840 --> 02:24:00,319
like issue surrender terms to the Allies and then you know,

1700
02:24:00,360 --> 02:24:07,040
like demand demand the Allies demure and accept the you know,

1701
02:24:07,120 --> 02:24:11,000
the Soviet dominance of Europe. So it was even like

1702
02:24:11,000 --> 02:24:14,239
a best case scenario. You're you know, you're you're looking

1703
02:24:14,280 --> 02:24:21,600
at being overrun, okay, and the only way to combat

1704
02:24:21,680 --> 02:24:25,239
that you can't you can't you can't combat that from

1705
02:24:25,280 --> 02:24:28,280
the air, okay. You know, the only way to combat

1706
02:24:28,319 --> 02:24:39,600
that is literally on the ground, you know, in a

1707
02:24:39,639 --> 02:24:45,399
way that uh essentially makes the again kind of like

1708
02:24:45,440 --> 02:24:55,239
the social, political and military and paramilitary like ecology essentially

1709
02:24:55,280 --> 02:24:59,319
too hostile and too dangerous and too unstable like for

1710
02:24:59,360 --> 02:25:03,719
the occupied to manage. Okay. And again I mean, for

1711
02:25:03,920 --> 02:25:05,920
this might seem obvious to some people, but it seems

1712
02:25:05,959 --> 02:25:09,159
obvious for the reasons I'm talking about, because that that

1713
02:25:09,239 --> 02:25:20,520
became this essential, this essential aspect of of war doctrine,

1714
02:25:21,840 --> 02:25:30,680
you know, says Clindestine, uh, the Ali Clandestine Coordinating Committee.

1715
02:25:31,399 --> 02:25:35,319
It created what was also known as the several quote

1716
02:25:35,360 --> 02:25:41,120
Allied clindistant Coordinating Groups. And these guys would they the

1717
02:25:41,159 --> 02:25:50,879
liaise on the personnel front with the NATO command elements

1718
02:25:51,399 --> 02:25:54,799
down to like at least battalion level and probably comedy level.

1719
02:25:58,520 --> 02:26:06,040
These uh, the these these coordinating groups were almost exclusively

1720
02:26:06,040 --> 02:26:14,840
staffed by uh, you know, men from from Supreme headquarters,

1721
02:26:15,559 --> 02:26:26,319
you know, Allied UH forces in Europe. The uh, the

1722
02:26:26,399 --> 02:26:29,440
idea was, uh, you know again to create a kind

1723
02:26:29,440 --> 02:26:33,719
of how much an aity of of thought and orientation,

1724
02:26:34,639 --> 02:26:40,000
you know, towards the formal mission statement. Well, uh, at

1725
02:26:40,000 --> 02:26:46,399
the same time kind of tailoring these efforts to address

1726
02:26:46,520 --> 02:26:50,399
and kind of satisfy the local conditions in each of

1727
02:26:50,440 --> 02:26:57,399
these countries, which varied quite a lot, you know, culturally, linguistically,

1728
02:26:58,079 --> 02:27:04,000
you know, the terrain was different, like the way people viewed, uh,

1729
02:27:04,639 --> 02:27:07,760
the way people viewed like the Easterns and the Russians differed.

1730
02:27:08,879 --> 02:27:13,479
You know, it was there's there's political, there was anthropological,

1731
02:27:13,559 --> 02:27:22,879
there was you know, sociological aspects. How these decisions were running. Now,

1732
02:27:26,840 --> 02:27:31,719
an event of World War three, Supreme Allied Commanded Europe

1733
02:27:32,000 --> 02:27:37,159
absolutely intended and was meant to and was structured to

1734
02:27:38,520 --> 02:27:43,000
exercise operational control well for pretty much every aspect of

1735
02:27:43,040 --> 02:27:45,760
the member state. For then the reason without like micromanaging

1736
02:27:45,920 --> 02:27:49,280
or trying to make micromanage you know, like unit or

1737
02:27:49,360 --> 02:27:56,760
into tactics because of self defeating. But so in terms

1738
02:27:56,799 --> 02:28:04,319
of like overall, in terms of like overall strategic orientation,

1739
02:28:04,879 --> 02:28:11,719
there wasn't in forest homogeneity, but to coordinate activities such

1740
02:28:11,799 --> 02:28:16,319
that we're talking about across like all different commands. An

1741
02:28:16,360 --> 02:28:19,280
event of wartime, you know, particularly where you're raising the

1742
02:28:19,360 --> 02:28:22,479
clock because you basically have you know, seventy two hours

1743
02:28:22,520 --> 02:28:26,120
to hold the Soviet Union at Bay on the mainline,

1744
02:28:26,159 --> 02:28:30,559
resistance at Fold in the North Rim and plane. You're

1745
02:28:30,600 --> 02:28:33,239
not gonna be able to just like splendidly like and

1746
02:28:33,600 --> 02:28:41,719
incorporate this structure into in a pre existing community areas.

1747
02:28:42,079 --> 02:28:45,079
I mean, you're gonna have to abide for those differences

1748
02:28:45,120 --> 02:28:49,680
and for those discrete you know kind of sensitivities to

1749
02:28:51,000 --> 02:28:56,159
various things that might seem totally innocuous or ridiculous or whatever.

1750
02:28:56,760 --> 02:28:59,399
You know. So I'm not suggesting this with some like

1751
02:28:59,440 --> 02:29:03,159
well machine, but it was basically I mean that that's

1752
02:29:03,239 --> 02:29:08,799
kind of the best you can do if this is uh,

1753
02:29:09,159 --> 02:29:11,559
if this is the mission orientation, you know, like the

1754
02:29:11,959 --> 02:29:14,239
you get the world as the world is not, you know,

1755
02:29:14,319 --> 02:29:19,520
like the not not not a tlleric utopia or everybody

1756
02:29:19,639 --> 02:29:22,959
is everybody privileges reason over a passion and man is

1757
02:29:23,000 --> 02:29:25,639
basically melible. And I mean that's that's not the way

1758
02:29:25,680 --> 02:29:35,760
things are, you know, I believe. And this takes us

1759
02:29:35,760 --> 02:29:45,559
back some years to it was after you know, the

1760
02:29:45,600 --> 02:29:50,799
Supreme Allied command elements, We're already devising ideas on how

1761
02:29:50,799 --> 02:29:53,760
to incorporate stay behinds into the order of battle and

1762
02:29:53,799 --> 02:29:57,600
the war playing structure. I mean that like again, that

1763
02:29:57,600 --> 02:30:03,280
that that kind of research began in ernest around nineteen

1764
02:30:03,280 --> 02:30:08,639
fifty seven as NATO kind of evolved, and again like

1765
02:30:08,760 --> 02:30:13,079
as as nuclear forces came off the table, as you know,

1766
02:30:13,159 --> 02:30:20,360
both the primary deterrented and the primary kind of assault

1767
02:30:21,520 --> 02:30:31,639
platform you know again, conventional forces and political uh warfare

1768
02:30:31,760 --> 02:30:36,760
took on an outside significance, and in nineteen seventy two,

1769
02:30:38,920 --> 02:30:49,479
a man named Vincenzovi and Seguerra. He's the man who

1770
02:30:50,239 --> 02:30:56,120
was blamed and continues to be for the Patiano massacre

1771
02:30:59,440 --> 02:31:04,600
on May thirty first, ninety seventy two. Patiano is a

1772
02:31:04,639 --> 02:31:13,520
suburb of Cigarato in Italy. Apparently some anonymous call came in,

1773
02:31:13,879 --> 02:31:18,719
you know, this is like provisional Ira style to the

1774
02:31:18,760 --> 02:31:28,639
local police, the Cadabagnetti, I think they're called, telling them

1775
02:31:28,680 --> 02:31:36,159
to check this car, this abandoned car. The car itself

1776
02:31:36,200 --> 02:31:38,799
turned out to be an explosive, like like the whole

1777
02:31:38,840 --> 02:31:40,920
thing was like wired with like I think plass speak.

1778
02:31:42,639 --> 02:31:46,360
So when these coppers investigated it, you know when they

1779
02:31:46,559 --> 02:31:52,040
like Jimmy didor open like like it exploded and and

1780
02:31:52,040 --> 02:31:57,600
and you know killed the I think it killed three

1781
02:31:57,600 --> 02:31:59,399
of the cop three of the five cops, and like

1782
02:31:59,440 --> 02:32:07,799
the others were aimed. But you know, it begs uh.

1783
02:32:08,239 --> 02:32:14,600
There was more severe attacks subsequent, some of which were

1784
02:32:14,719 --> 02:32:17,920
bona fide man's casualty events. But it does beg the

1785
02:32:18,000 --> 02:32:23,639
question like why, And it's not just uh, people like

1786
02:32:23,680 --> 02:32:28,600
Howard's in and with crank ideas you see, like fashion's

1787
02:32:28,639 --> 02:32:33,840
under their bed it's reasonably serious historians who claim that

1788
02:32:33,959 --> 02:32:36,399
like see like this is this is the fruits of

1789
02:32:36,440 --> 02:32:39,000
Operation Ladio, and it's like okay, but like why what

1790
02:32:39,120 --> 02:32:42,239
was the motive of these guys doing this? You know,

1791
02:32:42,440 --> 02:32:44,959
I mean, I like I said, like their claim is that,

1792
02:32:45,440 --> 02:32:47,559
oh well, it was just part of a tension strategy.

1793
02:32:47,600 --> 02:32:52,079
But it's like, but again, like you you don't need

1794
02:32:52,120 --> 02:32:58,360
that when warsaw packed as as twenty three thousand nuclear

1795
02:32:58,399 --> 02:33:02,799
weapons and thousands of them are pointed it at Europe

1796
02:33:02,799 --> 02:33:08,120
at decapitation range. You know, it's kind of the same

1797
02:33:08,120 --> 02:33:11,360
reason in my mind, Like you don't need to like

1798
02:33:11,719 --> 02:33:14,719
blow up the World Trade Center and pretend al Kaeda

1799
02:33:14,799 --> 02:33:18,040
did it to like pass the Patriot Act. You know,

1800
02:33:18,200 --> 02:33:25,000
that's not that's not things worked, you know. I mean

1801
02:33:25,000 --> 02:33:27,239
it's like look at the COVID nonsense that the government

1802
02:33:27,319 --> 02:33:30,239
like murder ten million people to pretend COVID with like

1803
02:33:30,239 --> 02:33:35,959
this deadly virus. Like no, I mean, like it's it's uh,

1804
02:33:36,440 --> 02:33:42,120
that's not really a propaganda works, and people generally go

1805
02:33:42,239 --> 02:33:44,639
along with it, you know, like at the face value.

1806
02:33:44,840 --> 02:33:47,000
You know, and again, especially during the Cold War, there

1807
02:33:47,040 --> 02:33:51,319
was peculiar exigencies due to the history of students of

1808
02:33:51,719 --> 02:33:55,360
history will know, like Juliusavola when he was arrested and

1809
02:33:55,440 --> 02:34:01,120
indicted and he was acquitted. It was events so these

1810
02:34:01,319 --> 02:34:05,399
uh years of light attacks, and the claim was that

1811
02:34:06,319 --> 02:34:09,840
Evla was some kind of like guru figure took this

1812
02:34:10,040 --> 02:34:14,920
cult of like young fascist partisans and so in some

1813
02:34:15,079 --> 02:34:19,639
like in chot way, like he was conspiring to kill

1814
02:34:19,719 --> 02:34:23,079
people with these like terrorists, which made no sense whatsoever

1815
02:34:23,200 --> 02:34:31,159
and basically got lapped out of court. But the perpetrators

1816
02:34:31,200 --> 02:34:40,719
of the Patiano massacre was alleged to be Vincenzo Vinceeguera,

1817
02:34:42,040 --> 02:34:51,920
a guy named Carlo Sicatuni, a guy named Ivano Boccaccino.

1818
02:34:54,360 --> 02:34:59,479
All these guys were members of the New Order was

1819
02:34:59,600 --> 02:35:05,479
Chloe called the New Order. The full name of it

1820
02:35:05,520 --> 02:35:10,319
was the New Order Scholarship Center, okay, which was basically

1821
02:35:12,479 --> 02:35:16,079
it was. It was basically like uh, that kind of

1822
02:35:18,879 --> 02:35:22,520
kind of like neo fascist cell, like intellectual type guys

1823
02:35:22,920 --> 02:35:25,639
who were also in into like paramilitary stuff and things.

1824
02:35:27,040 --> 02:35:30,479
They were big on like Julius Evlon stuff. You know.

1825
02:35:32,840 --> 02:35:35,479
But like I said, it doesn't really like it doesn't

1826
02:35:35,479 --> 02:35:44,680
really track, you know. Bocaccino was in fact he he

1827
02:35:44,680 --> 02:35:46,879
he himself was involved in some of these events, and

1828
02:35:46,959 --> 02:35:52,639
he later was killed like in in murky circumstances during

1829
02:35:52,680 --> 02:35:56,479
like a similar event. You know, some people claim that like,

1830
02:35:56,559 --> 02:35:58,840
well he was like a cop or like some intelligence

1831
02:35:58,879 --> 02:36:01,360
ass that that is possible, or maybe he was just

1832
02:36:01,399 --> 02:36:12,559
like a nut. Okay, Vinciguerta and Cicutini, they were both

1833
02:36:13,159 --> 02:36:21,079
sentenced to life in prison for years. Uh. Cicutini, Uh,

1834
02:36:21,719 --> 02:36:24,520
he fled to Spain, like when the indictment came down

1835
02:36:24,840 --> 02:36:27,319
with the informational complaint. I don't know if in Europe,

1836
02:36:27,360 --> 02:36:31,680
like they actually indict people, they afford people to process,

1837
02:36:31,760 --> 02:36:35,360
at least in a loose sense, like but they I

1838
02:36:35,639 --> 02:36:41,760
think their protocol is different. But he uh, he was

1839
02:36:41,799 --> 02:36:46,200
finally pinched in like you know, nineteen ninety eight, and

1840
02:36:46,239 --> 02:36:49,239
then uh about a decade later, like when his health

1841
02:36:49,319 --> 02:36:51,680
was failing, like they just they just like coult him

1842
02:36:51,719 --> 02:36:55,319
lose it for compassionate release. And it's like, really, man,

1843
02:36:55,399 --> 02:36:58,840
like you, this guy's just like demented terrorists, acording to

1844
02:36:58,840 --> 02:37:02,079
you when you're like cutting them loose for ill health.

1845
02:37:02,159 --> 02:37:06,479
I mean, like the whole the whole thing was strange.

1846
02:37:06,559 --> 02:37:09,040
What's significant too, is that like the New Order and

1847
02:37:09,120 --> 02:37:13,479
this whole, uh, this whole kind of like New Order

1848
02:37:13,639 --> 02:37:17,559
like like think tank or like intellectual kind of cadre,

1849
02:37:17,680 --> 02:37:22,760
do anything about it. Like that. These guys were they

1850
02:37:22,799 --> 02:37:25,680
were born out of the the Italian Social Movement, which

1851
02:37:25,760 --> 02:37:27,639
wasn't me. It was it was an openly like neo

1852
02:37:27,680 --> 02:37:30,760
fascist party, but it was a mainstream party, you know,

1853
02:37:31,000 --> 02:37:35,760
uh like Mussolini's granddaughter, you know, like she was, uh

1854
02:37:36,600 --> 02:37:39,159
she was like a public face of it, you know,

1855
02:37:40,719 --> 02:37:45,399
and in their traditional strongholds like Pepe, people people like

1856
02:37:45,520 --> 02:37:49,239
openly like celebrated and rep and repped that. You know,

1857
02:37:51,120 --> 02:37:55,920
like that, the New Order was something of a schismatic

1858
02:37:56,079 --> 02:38:06,760
breakoff from that from the Italian Social movement. Like I said,

1859
02:38:06,799 --> 02:38:08,600
what I like in it too, what I like in

1860
02:38:08,639 --> 02:38:11,319
it too. It's an imperfect example, but you know, like

1861
02:38:11,360 --> 02:38:15,239
that like the National Front schism that uh led like

1862
02:38:15,280 --> 02:38:18,600
you know, the Flag Group, which was you know the

1863
02:38:18,799 --> 02:38:22,239
uh different traditional kind of John Tyndall National Front, And

1864
02:38:22,239 --> 02:38:24,559
there's nothing wrong with that. I think National Front actually

1865
02:38:26,000 --> 02:38:33,760
did some really great things, especially for especially for uh,

1866
02:38:34,239 --> 02:38:37,719
you know, the downwardly mobile kind of like white working

1867
02:38:37,760 --> 02:38:42,879
class whose communities really were devastated by you know, the

1868
02:38:43,000 --> 02:38:51,360
UK is sort of Swiss dal Merstic globalism. But you

1869
02:38:51,399 --> 02:38:56,920
know the uh, and like I said, the Italian social

1870
02:38:56,959 --> 02:39:00,000
movement itself is every evil and like sense of build

1871
02:39:02,600 --> 02:39:04,639
the new order was very much more on like a

1872
02:39:04,719 --> 02:39:10,680
national socialist tip if that uh, I don't know if

1873
02:39:10,680 --> 02:39:12,719
that makes any different seqal or not. But again, like

1874
02:39:12,760 --> 02:39:21,760
I don't, this whole narrative doesn't really add up. But

1875
02:39:22,959 --> 02:39:27,799
you know the uh, it's also too like I don't,

1876
02:39:28,719 --> 02:39:30,879
I mean happened the regene is basically speaking out of

1877
02:39:30,920 --> 02:39:32,920
like both sides of its mouth. It's like, okay, like

1878
02:39:33,879 --> 02:39:37,719
these state behind organizations, I'm not going as far as

1879
02:39:37,719 --> 02:39:40,120
to say that like well, you know, like NATO created them,

1880
02:39:40,200 --> 02:39:43,000
Like you can't. You can't just like create al Qaeda

1881
02:39:43,120 --> 02:39:45,239
or whatever like idiots like Michael Morrissey. You can just

1882
02:39:45,280 --> 02:39:51,120
like create some radical like neo fascist cadre as a

1883
02:39:51,120 --> 02:39:54,280
state on one element. Like it's how life works, you know.

1884
02:39:54,680 --> 02:39:58,840
The these tendencies developed very organically, They solidify in a

1885
02:39:58,959 --> 02:40:03,159
harden and become in some people's cases like extreme owing

1886
02:40:03,200 --> 02:40:06,680
to like you know, personal influences in their orbit who

1887
02:40:09,760 --> 02:40:12,879
kind of feed on these people's like youth of energy

1888
02:40:13,600 --> 02:40:18,120
that tends to outshine their their capacity for self reflection.

1889
02:40:20,000 --> 02:40:24,000
But it's uh, you know. But at the same time,

1890
02:40:26,600 --> 02:40:29,520
at the same time, the fact that these guys were

1891
02:40:31,159 --> 02:40:35,040
for decades by the time this stuff was happening, they

1892
02:40:35,040 --> 02:40:38,159
were not just fully assimilated into kind of like the

1893
02:40:38,280 --> 02:40:42,719
NATO command and control structure, but they were considered to

1894
02:40:42,719 --> 02:40:45,360
be like an essential part of it. So it's like,

1895
02:40:45,719 --> 02:40:48,280
but now you can't control your people anymore, and they're

1896
02:40:48,319 --> 02:40:51,680
like blowing up cops. They're like, you know, they're they're

1897
02:40:51,719 --> 02:40:54,840
opening fire, they're ripping through fill auto like it at

1898
02:40:54,959 --> 02:40:58,000
train stations and killing old ladies and everybody else who

1899
02:40:58,000 --> 02:41:02,319
happens to be down range their fire like that. That

1900
02:41:02,399 --> 02:41:09,319
doesn't really make sense, man, Okay, you know, it just doesn't.

1901
02:41:09,520 --> 02:41:14,559
And not everything is uh not not not everything's a

1902
02:41:14,600 --> 02:41:20,399
science experiment, and you know, not everything's uh not not

1903
02:41:20,440 --> 02:41:23,760
everything lends itself the cutable inputs where you can you know,

1904
02:41:23,959 --> 02:41:28,399
derive like a concrete answer on the human condition and

1905
02:41:29,280 --> 02:41:34,959
you know, war and peace and stuff like that. I uh,

1906
02:41:36,360 --> 02:41:40,319
some I think that that's there's a lot of uh,

1907
02:41:41,040 --> 02:41:42,719
even to this day, there's like a lot of smoke

1908
02:41:42,799 --> 02:41:45,719
around these things, like for really for no reason, you

1909
02:41:45,760 --> 02:41:47,000
know what I mean. Like the men who were really

1910
02:41:47,040 --> 02:41:50,840
instrumental in these activities are long dead. You know. It's

1911
02:41:50,840 --> 02:41:53,600
like like you could say, well, this might like embarrass

1912
02:41:53,639 --> 02:41:55,479
the government. It's like, okay, if peop want to take

1913
02:41:55,479 --> 02:41:58,239
the people want to take government seriously anymore. Even if

1914
02:41:58,239 --> 02:42:02,799
they did, it's like okay, I mean there is there's uh,

1915
02:42:04,040 --> 02:42:06,319
there's a laundry list of like AAST nine A grievances

1916
02:42:06,360 --> 02:42:09,120
like people hang on you know, like the government. You know,

1917
02:42:09,159 --> 02:42:11,920
it's like, what's what's one more? You know, I don't

1918
02:42:12,440 --> 02:42:15,520
I don't really understand the discussion. I mean I understand it intellectually.

1919
02:42:15,479 --> 02:42:18,360
You know. What I mean is I continue to kind

1920
02:42:18,360 --> 02:42:26,040
of stupefy me that people don't see uh like see

1921
02:42:26,040 --> 02:42:32,879
through how like fucking uh transparent? The this is Oh wow,

1922
02:42:32,879 --> 02:42:35,840
we've been going for out an hour, haven't we. Yeah,

1923
02:42:35,959 --> 02:42:37,879
let's get into the years of LED next MANX. If

1924
02:42:37,879 --> 02:42:39,719
I if I start that now, we're gonna be here

1925
02:42:39,719 --> 02:42:40,360
like another hour.

1926
02:42:41,399 --> 02:42:42,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, no problem.

1927
02:42:43,360 --> 02:42:44,879
Speaker 2: I don't want to fuck with the program.

1928
02:42:45,280 --> 02:42:47,440
Speaker 1: Sounds good to me.

1929
02:42:47,760 --> 02:42:49,959
Speaker 2: Someone I want to crash thom because I got frankly,

1930
02:42:50,000 --> 02:42:51,200
I got a big day tomorrow.

1931
02:42:52,120 --> 02:42:55,280
Speaker 1: Oh yeah you do, but uh do plugs real.

1932
02:42:55,239 --> 02:42:58,559
Speaker 2: Quick yes, sir, you can always find them. You can

1933
02:42:58,559 --> 02:43:01,879
always find me on my web site. It's Thomas seven

1934
02:43:01,959 --> 02:43:06,319
seven seven dot com number seven h M A S

1935
02:43:06,319 --> 02:43:11,040
seven seven seven dot com. I'm on Twitter. I got

1936
02:43:11,040 --> 02:43:14,879
a pretty active I got a pretty active timeline. It's

1937
02:43:15,120 --> 02:43:20,040
real capital R E A L Underscore number seven h

1938
02:43:20,159 --> 02:43:26,639
M A S seven seven seven. I'm on t ram.

1939
02:43:26,879 --> 02:43:31,159
I'm on Instagram. I uh my substack is the best

1940
02:43:31,159 --> 02:43:33,559
place hitting me up. I got I got a lot

1941
02:43:33,559 --> 02:43:36,280
of video. This My podcast is a lot of just

1942
02:43:36,360 --> 02:43:38,520
kind of like random audio and me talking to people.

1943
02:43:38,520 --> 02:43:41,520
We got a very active chat that's been hopping a

1944
02:43:41,559 --> 02:43:46,399
lot lately. That's real Thomas seven seven seven dot substack

1945
02:43:46,479 --> 02:43:49,440
dot com. If EP could include like some of my

1946
02:43:50,360 --> 02:43:53,639
plugs in the video description, that would that would be great. Man.

1947
02:43:53,920 --> 02:43:55,799
You'd have my gratitude of course. Yeah.

1948
02:43:55,920 --> 02:44:00,600
Speaker 1: I have your and I have your the uh the

1949
02:44:00,600 --> 02:44:02,719
the new merch you have and everything included there.

1950
02:44:03,079 --> 02:44:05,680
Speaker 2: No, that's awesome. Yeah, thanks so much. Yeah, I am

1951
02:44:05,760 --> 02:44:09,760
very blessed that our our buddy Harrik Kreeg. I have

1952
02:44:09,840 --> 02:44:11,520
no idea how to mock that stuff up, man, and

1953
02:44:11,559 --> 02:44:13,000
he's got real ability, you know.

1954
02:44:14,200 --> 02:44:17,239
Speaker 1: I'm very It looks good it looks really good.

1955
02:44:17,719 --> 02:44:22,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, look really good. Looks yeah yeah, no, it's people

1956
02:44:22,959 --> 02:44:24,959
really like it, and it makes me happy, man, that

1957
02:44:25,159 --> 02:44:27,280
we can deliver stuff that people like you can actually

1958
02:44:27,280 --> 02:44:28,879
want to like wear on their body, you know.

1959
02:44:30,719 --> 02:44:33,920
Speaker 1: And you actually got retweeted by Candae Owens yesterday.

1960
02:44:34,200 --> 02:44:36,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. That's why it's been like a deluge

1961
02:44:36,120 --> 02:44:42,559
of It's weird, man, It's I it's weird being like

1962
02:44:42,760 --> 02:44:46,040
Internet famous in some small way. Like I mean, okay,

1963
02:44:46,079 --> 02:44:48,200
I'm fine with it. I don't know, think about Cannas Owens.

1964
02:44:48,239 --> 02:44:50,479
I don't really mess with their content or anything whatever.

1965
02:44:50,520 --> 02:44:53,840
I mean, she wants to retweet me, that's fine, but

1966
02:44:54,120 --> 02:44:55,520
uh yeah, it's kind of nutty.

1967
02:44:56,399 --> 02:44:58,120
Speaker 1: All right, Thomas, thank you very much.

1968
02:44:58,479 --> 02:44:59,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Bud.

1969
02:45:02,360 --> 02:45:05,159
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pekaniana Show.

1970
02:45:05,680 --> 02:45:09,200
Thomas is back, and I think this is the I'm

1971
02:45:09,239 --> 02:45:12,840
going to conclude Gladio today, right, it's long time coming.

1972
02:45:13,520 --> 02:45:14,040
You're muted.

1973
02:45:14,319 --> 02:45:17,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm just call up my outline he

1974
02:45:17,879 --> 02:45:23,479
real quick, No problem, Yeah no, I think, oh yeah,

1975
02:45:23,520 --> 02:45:27,319
here we go. I already got it up. Yeah. Like

1976
02:45:27,399 --> 02:45:33,239
I said, man, just to advise the viewers and subs,

1977
02:45:33,280 --> 02:45:36,360
like I don't. I don't feel great, so like forgive

1978
02:45:36,360 --> 02:45:38,559
me if I repeat myself or like lose my place.

1979
02:45:38,600 --> 02:45:44,280
But I think we're I think we're good. So I

1980
02:45:44,280 --> 02:45:45,840
think I want to get into today, and like I

1981
02:45:45,879 --> 02:45:53,959
will as we get into the topic. Gladio created an

1982
02:45:54,000 --> 02:45:57,600
interesting ideological culture that is relevant to like what we

1983
02:45:57,719 --> 02:46:01,120
do today. It's not it's not just a strange footnote

1984
02:46:01,159 --> 02:46:04,440
of history. It's not just something that gives rise to

1985
02:46:04,760 --> 02:46:08,680
conspiratorial narratives. It's not just you know, this kind of

1986
02:46:08,760 --> 02:46:15,280
artifact of Cold War grand strategy and military planning and

1987
02:46:15,280 --> 02:46:19,000
and you know, related specifically to the nuances of political

1988
02:46:19,040 --> 02:46:23,319
warfare and and all of that. You know, And like

1989
02:46:23,360 --> 02:46:24,920
I said, I don't want to get ahead of ourselves,

1990
02:46:25,000 --> 02:46:29,120
but you know, ground zero for gladi was really Italy, okay,

1991
02:46:29,120 --> 02:46:34,159
and Italy. Italy absolutely lost the war, like like all

1992
02:46:34,159 --> 02:46:37,120
of Europe. Did you know the Vatican was hit incredibly hard,

1993
02:46:37,440 --> 02:46:40,639
like figuratively and literally, you know, like Vatican two was

1994
02:46:40,719 --> 02:46:49,879
basically like like the the the Catholic leadership hierarchy reuh

1995
02:46:50,120 --> 02:46:53,360
reinventing itself to to be agreeable to you know, to

1996
02:46:53,440 --> 02:46:55,879
American hegemy and like and like that. In the Nurmer

1997
02:46:55,959 --> 02:47:01,399
World War, okay, and the rest of Italy. Italy was

1998
02:47:01,399 --> 02:47:03,319
was a key. I mean, Italy was like the fifth

1999
02:47:03,399 --> 02:47:08,680
largest economy I think into the seventies on this planet.

2000
02:47:09,440 --> 02:47:14,479
And Italy, Italy and the Benelux countries they were they

2001
02:47:14,520 --> 02:47:17,600
were they were like NATO's literal flanks, okay. I mean

2002
02:47:17,639 --> 02:47:22,399
obviously like the the Bunis Republic, the Bunia you know,

2003
02:47:22,479 --> 02:47:25,639
the US Army, you know, espeifically, the armored KAEV and

2004
02:47:25,680 --> 02:47:31,760
field artillery, the British Army on the North German plane.

2005
02:47:32,319 --> 02:47:36,360
They they were they were the fare punk of like

2006
02:47:36,399 --> 02:47:39,879
the mainline of resistance in near German border. But the

2007
02:47:39,959 --> 02:47:43,280
Italian Army you know, in the south and the Benelux

2008
02:47:43,760 --> 02:47:47,959
uh military elements on then in the north they were

2009
02:47:48,079 --> 02:47:51,000
just as essential. So there was this weird situation with

2010
02:47:51,120 --> 02:47:55,200
the Italy because it wasn't occupied like the Bundus Republic was.

2011
02:47:55,440 --> 02:47:59,000
It was part of NATO. But there was also this

2012
02:47:59,120 --> 02:48:01,799
like overtly fan that's just culture that was still active there,

2013
02:48:02,360 --> 02:48:05,479
like they were sending people to parliament, you know, they

2014
02:48:06,079 --> 02:48:07,840
and it just kind of had to be tolerated because

2015
02:48:07,879 --> 02:48:09,799
it's like what are you gonna do? It's like they

2016
02:48:09,879 --> 02:48:11,799
had they had a pro they had a Cold War

2017
02:48:11,879 --> 02:48:15,680
your government that they had like a permanent incumbency, you know,

2018
02:48:15,760 --> 02:48:19,200
they were they they hated the Communists. They were like

2019
02:48:19,200 --> 02:48:21,319
one hundred and ten percent fying the Cold War. It

2020
02:48:21,399 --> 02:48:22,799
was kind of like something that it was kind of

2021
02:48:22,799 --> 02:48:26,959
something like Washington had to tolerate. So but of course

2022
02:48:27,000 --> 02:48:29,000
they decided to kind of like try and purpose that

2023
02:48:29,159 --> 02:48:31,639
towards Cold War ends on the political side, not just

2024
02:48:31,680 --> 02:48:34,760
the military side. And that was like the core of Gladio.

2025
02:48:35,479 --> 02:48:39,479
You know, there's there's obviously Gladio elements in in the

2026
02:48:39,479 --> 02:48:43,399
Benelux countries, like in France as well, even though France

2027
02:48:43,520 --> 02:48:46,559
wasn't you know, part of the formal NATO structure, there

2028
02:48:46,639 --> 02:48:50,719
was a there were there were Gladio elements of a

2029
02:48:50,879 --> 02:48:55,399
sort like in in the Buddhist Republic. Oh that was

2030
02:48:55,399 --> 02:48:57,479
like a tricky thing, you know, and it was it

2031
02:48:57,520 --> 02:49:00,760
was weirdly handled. But Italy, like the of these guys

2032
02:49:00,879 --> 02:49:04,000
was Italy. You know. Also you know, like the Italians,

2033
02:49:05,399 --> 02:49:09,399
the Italian Seven, they contribute like an outsized in an

2034
02:49:09,399 --> 02:49:14,719
outsized way to European cultural things. And like we've talked about,

2035
02:49:14,879 --> 02:49:18,559
you know, like I mean going back to the to

2036
02:49:18,639 --> 02:49:21,520
the inner warriors, you know, like Mussolanie's March on Rome.

2037
02:49:22,040 --> 02:49:26,319
That was a huge development, you know. Uh, it was

2038
02:49:26,319 --> 02:49:31,159
this right wing revolutionary tendency that was basically like returning

2039
02:49:31,159 --> 02:49:33,920
the serve like out of the bullster of revolution. And

2040
02:49:34,040 --> 02:49:37,840
weird when you seem to Americans like art and like

2041
02:49:38,159 --> 02:49:43,159
artistic endeavors and and aesthetical things that has this that

2042
02:49:43,200 --> 02:49:47,040
has like an outsized cachet in Europe like to this day,

2043
02:49:47,479 --> 02:49:49,639
Like you wouldn't think of America of some painter or

2044
02:49:49,639 --> 02:49:52,959
even like a novelist or a filmmaker, like you wouldn't

2045
02:49:53,000 --> 02:49:56,040
think of You wouldn't think of him like putting something

2046
02:49:56,040 --> 02:50:00,479
in the stream of cultural commerce and it like a

2047
02:50:00,520 --> 02:50:03,799
movement developing around it or coming to like symbolize some

2048
02:50:03,879 --> 02:50:06,440
kind of movement. But in Italy that's very much the case.

2049
02:50:06,559 --> 02:50:09,360
It wasn't it is, you know, and the Cold War

2050
02:50:09,520 --> 02:50:12,760
was no exception. So you had these guys in Italy

2051
02:50:13,920 --> 02:50:16,920
running around who constant kind of like the core of

2052
02:50:16,959 --> 02:50:19,840
Gladio and like some of them are very compromised. They

2053
02:50:19,840 --> 02:50:23,360
were basically like NATO agents and that's like just what

2054
02:50:23,360 --> 02:50:25,680
they were, and they didn't really give a fuck, like

2055
02:50:25,760 --> 02:50:28,639
about what your knowing ideology was beyond you know, cold

2056
02:50:28,639 --> 02:50:32,120
war imperatives. But you also had these guys who were

2057
02:50:33,079 --> 02:50:36,079
you know, who were basically like act like said Julius

2058
02:50:36,079 --> 02:50:39,399
eve Lah or whore in the early days, had you know,

2059
02:50:39,520 --> 02:50:44,280
fought in the Italian army like with the Axis, or

2060
02:50:44,520 --> 02:50:48,120
you know, they were guys who came to Gladio because

2061
02:50:48,120 --> 02:50:51,719
they were agitating against communists, you know, or they were

2062
02:50:52,000 --> 02:50:55,600
or immigrants or you know, whatever their kind of core

2063
02:50:55,799 --> 02:50:59,000
issues were, and they got swept up, you know by

2064
02:50:59,079 --> 02:51:05,159
like Italian carbonaria or or political police. And I'm like, okay,

2065
02:51:05,159 --> 02:51:06,920
look like why why do you make it so useful?

2066
02:51:06,959 --> 02:51:09,079
Like this is what you're wanting to do? You know?

2067
02:51:11,399 --> 02:51:14,680
So that that's that's kind of like the that that

2068
02:51:14,680 --> 02:51:16,520
that's kind of that was kind of like the situation

2069
02:51:16,680 --> 02:51:19,440
on the Italian street, you know, particularly in Rome, but

2070
02:51:19,520 --> 02:51:24,920
kind of like all over the country. And I can't

2071
02:51:24,920 --> 02:51:27,520
remember I got into this or not. I refreshed my recollection,

2072
02:51:27,719 --> 02:51:31,719
but I if I'm repeating myself, call me on it.

2073
02:51:31,760 --> 02:51:36,239
But what kind of brought gladi out of people's awareness?

2074
02:51:36,760 --> 02:51:40,200
I'm talking in terms of like the general public was,

2075
02:51:40,360 --> 02:51:43,920
uh was the Patiano massacre? I can't remember we got

2076
02:51:43,920 --> 02:51:47,600
into this last time or not, but basically on May thirty,

2077
02:51:47,639 --> 02:51:52,319
first seventy two, there was was characterized as a neo

2078
02:51:52,479 --> 02:52:00,360
fascist terror attack. There's an anonymous call, uh play to this

2079
02:52:00,719 --> 02:52:07,280
carbonary barracks in a suburb of uh the Sigadado, and

2080
02:52:07,360 --> 02:52:12,079
the caller said, you know, hey, check this car, Check

2081
02:52:12,120 --> 02:52:14,719
this abandoned car. You know it's it's an I ED.

2082
02:52:15,879 --> 02:52:19,360
And when they did, and it like it exploded, as

2083
02:52:19,399 --> 02:52:23,319
like they were trying to investigate it, and it killed

2084
02:52:23,319 --> 02:52:29,840
these three cops. The perpetrators are the guys who got

2085
02:52:29,840 --> 02:52:32,840
brought up, who got stuck with the charges on grounds

2086
02:52:32,840 --> 02:52:36,840
of it. They were, uh, this guy named Vincenzo and Seguera,

2087
02:52:37,520 --> 02:52:44,520
Carlo Sicatini, and this guy Ivano Bucket Chino and all

2088
02:52:44,559 --> 02:52:49,079
these guys remembers of this of this group called New Order,

2089
02:52:50,680 --> 02:52:53,360
the the the official name is the New Order of

2090
02:52:53,399 --> 02:52:57,280
Scholarship Center. It was basically like a think tank and

2091
02:52:58,479 --> 02:53:01,360
it wasn't a political party. It was kind of like Ellen.

2092
02:53:01,399 --> 02:53:05,680
The ben La was like uh Greece g R E

2093
02:53:05,799 --> 02:53:11,239
c E or Grace, you know it was. It basically

2094
02:53:11,239 --> 02:53:12,600
was what it appeared to be. It was like a

2095
02:53:12,639 --> 02:53:18,680
Research Group, you know, and when when you know what,

2096
02:53:18,840 --> 02:53:20,840
where they who was funding them and where they were

2097
02:53:20,840 --> 02:53:23,920
getting money from wasn't exactly clear, but there was a

2098
02:53:23,920 --> 02:53:26,120
lot of that. There's a lot of there's a lot

2099
02:53:26,120 --> 02:53:29,239
of like money going into it. And the Italian Social Movement,

2100
02:53:30,959 --> 02:53:35,399
which was a mainstream political party despite they can they

2101
02:53:35,440 --> 02:53:40,600
considered and consider themselves to uh to be the direct

2102
02:53:40,680 --> 02:53:44,479
descendance of the the National Fascist Party and they kind

2103
02:53:44,479 --> 02:53:48,079
of are like, it's not cap but the New Order

2104
02:53:48,159 --> 02:53:50,760
Scholarship Center they came about based on like a schiz

2105
02:53:50,840 --> 02:53:56,959
on in the Italian Social Movement, which is interesting, like

2106
02:53:57,079 --> 02:54:00,000
as as the Italian Social Movement kind of approached mainstream

2107
02:54:00,079 --> 02:54:03,040
respectability and like the Eisenhower era, which happened to like

2108
02:54:03,040 --> 02:54:05,440
a lot of like right wing parties in Europe and

2109
02:54:05,559 --> 02:54:07,120
during that era too, I mean that was one like

2110
02:54:07,120 --> 02:54:10,399
Francis Yacki was like writing speeches for Joseph McCarthy, Like

2111
02:54:10,520 --> 02:54:14,120
very unusual stuff was going on due to you know

2112
02:54:14,159 --> 02:54:16,760
what amounts so like an enduring emergency. You know, this

2113
02:54:16,879 --> 02:54:19,879
is the era like the Berlin crises and things. You know,

2114
02:54:19,879 --> 02:54:22,120
people are convinced that coldor is gonna be him hot

2115
02:54:22,360 --> 02:54:25,559
become hot This was also in a bunch of guys

2116
02:54:25,600 --> 02:54:28,399
with real trigger time, you know, like basically the entire

2117
02:54:28,479 --> 02:54:31,600
first SS, like leap stand Art, they were rotting in

2118
02:54:31,639 --> 02:54:35,840
prison sept Dietrich had a life sentence, Yak and Piper

2119
02:54:35,920 --> 02:54:38,559
at the death kind of lead. A bunch of these

2120
02:54:38,600 --> 02:54:41,840
guys got released during this era, like not because NATO

2121
02:54:41,920 --> 02:54:45,719
wanted to be nice and not not because Washington decided

2122
02:54:45,760 --> 02:54:49,280
they wanted to roll back the present they've established at Nurnberg.

2123
02:54:49,360 --> 02:54:52,000
But they're like, you know, we're we're we're almost certainly

2124
02:54:52,000 --> 02:54:54,680
going to fight World War three imminently, and we need

2125
02:54:55,559 --> 02:54:57,360
we you know, we need officers and n c os

2126
02:54:57,360 --> 02:54:59,120
that we actually fought the Ivans and we can't be

2127
02:54:59,159 --> 02:55:01,319
going around to arresting people for being right wing and

2128
02:55:01,360 --> 02:55:07,360
that's not gonna work. So kind of the mainstream of

2129
02:55:07,360 --> 02:55:12,520
the Italian social movement are Turo Michellini, who was like

2130
02:55:12,520 --> 02:55:16,600
their Hancho, Like he was basically a moderate for the time.

2131
02:55:16,680 --> 02:55:20,200
He was like a right wing moderate. He uh, he

2132
02:55:20,280 --> 02:55:23,959
wanted to click up with the Christian Democrats, with the monarchists,

2133
02:55:24,200 --> 02:55:26,319
you know, basically he wanted to join kind of like

2134
02:55:26,360 --> 02:55:32,479
the mainstream coalition of like center right parties, and these

2135
02:55:32,520 --> 02:55:37,719
guys uh, like Buggaccino and like Vinci Gatta and like Sicutini,

2136
02:55:38,559 --> 02:55:41,760
they were like, uh, like that's not happening, like they're forebears.

2137
02:55:41,799 --> 02:55:43,440
I don't think they were involved at that time, but

2138
02:55:44,319 --> 02:55:47,639
you know, these there was these schismatic guys you know

2139
02:55:47,719 --> 02:55:52,239
who were who were uh, who are very much like

2140
02:55:52,280 --> 02:55:55,719
Evold and Ancolytes, and they're like that's bullshit, like you're

2141
02:55:55,719 --> 02:55:58,440
not You're not gonna turn us into some like some

2142
02:55:58,600 --> 02:56:02,600
like regime approved like like part of the parliamentary apparatus.

2143
02:56:03,280 --> 02:56:06,440
You know. So these guys found a new order, okay,

2144
02:56:08,879 --> 02:56:12,920
and there was a uh and this guy this is

2145
02:56:13,000 --> 02:56:14,959
kind of formalize the nineteen fifty six there was this

2146
02:56:15,000 --> 02:56:17,680
big meeting in Milan that was the Italian social mooge

2147
02:56:17,719 --> 02:56:21,639
in Congress and this guy Pino Rowdy, who was the

2148
02:56:21,959 --> 02:56:24,079
he was he was like kind of the representative what

2149
02:56:24,159 --> 02:56:27,920
became like new order. He basically stood up and said,

2150
02:56:27,959 --> 02:56:30,760
like you know that you're you're disgracing the honor like

2151
02:56:30,799 --> 02:56:33,600
the man who died like fighting the Americans and the communists.

2152
02:56:33,760 --> 02:56:35,719
You know, how dare you? You know you're trying to

2153
02:56:35,799 --> 02:56:38,840
hijack us? You know this this is this is Jewish,

2154
02:56:39,079 --> 02:56:42,840
you know, fuck you basically, So like that was that

2155
02:56:43,680 --> 02:56:45,360
So these New Order guys were kind of like and

2156
02:56:45,360 --> 02:56:48,000
everybody shit list anyway, Like I'm not saying they didn't

2157
02:56:48,000 --> 02:56:50,600
plant as Bob. Maybe they did or maybe they didn't,

2158
02:56:52,360 --> 02:56:55,399
but it served multiple purposes to claim these guys did it,

2159
02:56:55,440 --> 02:56:59,319
even if they did not. And I love Italians and Italy.

2160
02:56:59,520 --> 02:57:01,399
I'm not saying bad things about them as a people,

2161
02:57:01,520 --> 02:57:05,719
but Italian justice is not exactly rigorous or going to

2162
02:57:05,760 --> 02:57:08,600
do process, you know, especially during that era.

2163
02:57:09,040 --> 02:57:11,159
Speaker 1: If you don't like the Italian government, wait five years,

2164
02:57:11,200 --> 02:57:12,639
we'll get a new one.

2165
02:57:13,360 --> 02:57:17,479
Speaker 2: Yeah that too, But that's that's kind of the context

2166
02:57:17,760 --> 02:57:22,120
and other other right wing movements in Europe, and this

2167
02:57:22,319 --> 02:57:26,799
is a very different circumstance. It wasn't like now there,

2168
02:57:27,479 --> 02:57:30,239
you know, like I'm always talking about these these literally

2169
02:57:30,280 --> 02:57:33,680
mentally retarded people who like show for Zelensky and stuff

2170
02:57:33,680 --> 02:57:35,760
because they're like too stupid to be alive. But some

2171
02:57:35,840 --> 02:57:38,639
of the are they're like they're like brain eating amba

2172
02:57:38,799 --> 02:57:45,600
or something. But but in those you know like that nowadays,

2173
02:57:45,639 --> 02:57:48,959
there there's there's literally like the regime, there's globalism, and

2174
02:57:49,000 --> 02:57:52,120
then there's people resisting it, you know, whether there's Salathis

2175
02:57:52,120 --> 02:57:55,319
who are not good guys, or our friends, whether they're in Iran,

2176
02:57:55,360 --> 02:57:58,920
whether they're in Russia who are our friends, whether they're

2177
02:57:58,959 --> 02:58:02,280
you know. But I mean in the Cold War there

2178
02:58:02,319 --> 02:58:06,399
was all these bizarre intrigues and everything was characterized by

2179
02:58:06,479 --> 02:58:12,239
Cold War dynamics and phenomenon. So like even if you

2180
02:58:12,280 --> 02:58:15,280
didn't want to take a side, you had to insinuate

2181
02:58:15,719 --> 02:58:20,360
sinsinuate yourself somehow into that paradigm, like otherwise you were

2182
02:58:20,399 --> 02:58:23,559
just pissing into the wind, you know. So and plus two,

2183
02:58:23,600 --> 02:58:26,239
you could play people off against each other, you know,

2184
02:58:26,360 --> 02:58:31,319
like if you know in the fifties and sixties and

2185
02:58:31,319 --> 02:58:33,719
then post it tot you know, in the nineteen eighties.

2186
02:58:34,479 --> 02:58:36,959
I mean basically, if you were approached, if you were

2187
02:58:37,000 --> 02:58:39,479
if you were a partisan, whether you're in Italy or

2188
02:58:39,520 --> 02:58:43,719
the or the Benelux countries or the UK, and you've

2189
02:58:43,719 --> 02:58:46,879
got actual bodies on in the street, you could approach

2190
02:58:46,959 --> 02:58:49,840
by some intelligence guy or some NATO type. Yeah, I

2191
02:58:49,879 --> 02:58:51,920
mean you can basically take turns to him. You know,

2192
02:58:52,000 --> 02:58:54,440
you want to start behaving myself, You want me to

2193
02:58:54,440 --> 02:58:57,239
commit to doing something when you need to fight the communists,

2194
02:58:57,399 --> 02:58:59,239
you would have given me a lot of money or

2195
02:58:59,280 --> 02:59:01,399
a lot of small and ammo or like a lot

2196
02:59:01,440 --> 02:59:04,479
of drugs I can sell or something, you know. And

2197
02:59:04,520 --> 02:59:07,799
there was like limits to this obviously, but you know,

2198
02:59:07,840 --> 02:59:13,559
it was a rarefied circumstance, you know, a new order. Also,

2199
02:59:14,360 --> 02:59:17,280
there's stuff was disseminated throughout Europe and in those good days,

2200
02:59:17,920 --> 02:59:22,000
you know, fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, you know, print media

2201
02:59:22,120 --> 02:59:24,000
was the only thing, was the only game in town,

2202
02:59:24,079 --> 02:59:27,280
you know, so and what you could find, especially especially

2203
02:59:27,360 --> 02:59:31,479
based on the censorship censorship regime, not just in the

2204
02:59:31,479 --> 02:59:34,920
Buddhist Republic, but in the UK and other places, you know,

2205
02:59:34,959 --> 02:59:36,719
you had to take like you had to get what

2206
02:59:36,760 --> 02:59:39,479
could be smuggled in, you know, and sometimes it be

2207
02:59:39,479 --> 02:59:41,719
in English, sometimes it wouldn't. Sometimes it'd be like an

2208
02:59:41,799 --> 02:59:46,799
English translation that was imprecise. But a whole lot of

2209
02:59:46,799 --> 02:59:51,879
this material relevant to the right, relative to the old

2210
02:59:52,159 --> 02:59:57,120
resistance in Europe. What's coming out of Italy and you

2211
02:59:57,120 --> 03:00:00,440
know now orders publications they very much valorize the Third

2212
03:00:00,520 --> 03:00:05,840
Right and the Kingdom of Italy. And there were dead,

2213
03:00:06,200 --> 03:00:08,079
you know, in the independent State of Croatia, and like

2214
03:00:09,319 --> 03:00:13,639
all the excess powers they also they had links with

2215
03:00:13,760 --> 03:00:17,040
the Boor of Republican Rhodesia also, like they had strong

2216
03:00:17,120 --> 03:00:21,959
support there. You know. It was very anti modernist. It

2217
03:00:22,040 --> 03:00:24,520
was very Strasser, right, you know, and despite what people

2218
03:00:24,760 --> 03:00:27,440
think Strasser had, uh, he had he had a he

2219
03:00:27,479 --> 03:00:29,799
had a very nuanced view of things. I don't agree

2220
03:00:29,840 --> 03:00:32,799
with this perspective. But it wasn't just oh he was

2221
03:00:32,879 --> 03:00:36,120
a socialist, but he also didn't like Zionism. It's there

2222
03:00:36,200 --> 03:00:38,719
was nothing like that. And he was not pro Soviet.

2223
03:00:39,760 --> 03:00:41,799
He said that, you know, Europe has to fight some

2224
03:00:41,920 --> 03:00:44,319
kind of concord with Moscow no matter what the government

2225
03:00:44,440 --> 03:00:47,760
is there, and that's the way forward. But he basically

2226
03:00:48,799 --> 03:00:52,239
the reason why the standard of the Black Front it

2227
03:00:52,360 --> 03:00:54,200
was the hammer and sword. It wasn't just because it

2228
03:00:54,239 --> 03:00:58,319
looks cool. You know, he's the Strassers, the Strasser. His

2229
03:00:58,399 --> 03:01:01,959
whole point was we've got to return to like medieval origins.

2230
03:01:02,079 --> 03:01:04,719
That's you know, not not in some ridiculous way or

2231
03:01:05,360 --> 03:01:08,120
or not in some luodite way. But he's like, you know, this,

2232
03:01:08,280 --> 03:01:13,840
this devolved, localized governmental structure is what's natural to Europe.

2233
03:01:14,200 --> 03:01:16,440
You know, yes, we need a national government, but it's

2234
03:01:16,479 --> 03:01:19,079
got to be totally federated and not just the name only,

2235
03:01:19,719 --> 03:01:22,559
you know, like they like down to down like the

2236
03:01:22,639 --> 03:01:27,399
township level, like they basically wanted like local sovereignty and

2237
03:01:28,200 --> 03:01:31,760
for matters that you know impact you know, like the

2238
03:01:31,959 --> 03:01:35,120
folk community or like war in peace question the base

2239
03:01:35,200 --> 03:01:39,520
of security, like that's that's what the national community ossifies

2240
03:01:39,799 --> 03:01:43,639
as one. But otherwise, you know, it's it exists in

2241
03:01:43,680 --> 03:01:46,479
this totally like organic kind of like spontaneous and the

2242
03:01:46,639 --> 03:01:50,399
wealth capacity. And that's basically what the third position was

2243
03:01:50,520 --> 03:01:53,760
up on during the entire Cold War. And the third

2244
03:01:53,840 --> 03:01:56,399
position as we think of it, it does not exist anymore.

2245
03:01:57,399 --> 03:02:01,639
You know. John Bowden made that point. So if you're like, oh,

2246
03:02:01,680 --> 03:02:04,040
I'm a third positionist, well that doesn't make any sense

2247
03:02:04,079 --> 03:02:08,280
in America anyway, because there is no American third position. Okay,

2248
03:02:08,920 --> 03:02:11,239
there was like a there there was there was a

2249
03:02:12,319 --> 03:02:14,239
there was a taffy and right wing position that was

2250
03:02:14,280 --> 03:02:17,319
America first, we shouldn't be fighting the Cold War. But

2251
03:02:17,399 --> 03:02:20,680
that's something totally different. And in the twenty oars centi's

2252
03:02:20,719 --> 03:02:23,680
just not a third a third position anywhere, because there's

2253
03:02:23,760 --> 03:02:28,920
not there's not the binary paradigm. There's globalism and everybody

2254
03:02:28,959 --> 03:02:33,120
opposing it. That's it. And those people opposing it. They

2255
03:02:33,159 --> 03:02:36,399
have different motives for opposing it, some of which are

2256
03:02:38,479 --> 03:02:42,399
some of which you know, are like rhyme with one another,

2257
03:02:42,760 --> 03:02:45,639
some which don't at all. But there's but but there's

2258
03:02:45,680 --> 03:02:48,799
not two positions. There's one position and there's the resistance.

2259
03:02:49,600 --> 03:02:53,840
This is actually important. It's not just something that academic

2260
03:02:53,959 --> 03:02:57,799
types and people like me are into or relate to,

2261
03:02:58,959 --> 03:03:00,879
you know, contemplate, pontificate that.

2262
03:03:03,360 --> 03:03:09,159
Speaker 1: Well people, but people may. I think sometimes people think

2263
03:03:09,200 --> 03:03:11,559
that you say stuff like that just to just to

2264
03:03:11,680 --> 03:03:15,600
upset them. Because it upsets them. They you know, they

2265
03:03:15,680 --> 03:03:20,639
think they're a third positionist and they underah in what way.

2266
03:03:20,760 --> 03:03:23,200
You know, It's like it's like talking about being right

2267
03:03:23,280 --> 03:03:25,360
wing or left wing and you're talking about the early

2268
03:03:26,000 --> 03:03:27,040
you know, twentieth century.

2269
03:03:27,159 --> 03:03:27,680
Speaker 2: In Europe.

2270
03:03:27,760 --> 03:03:29,680
Speaker 1: It's not the same thing as in Europe as it

2271
03:03:29,760 --> 03:03:32,399
is in the United States. There's a lot more nuance there.

2272
03:03:33,639 --> 03:03:38,479
Speaker 2: Well, there's also the same guys who think that they

2273
03:03:38,879 --> 03:03:41,879
like they think that they think that they're right wing

2274
03:03:42,719 --> 03:03:47,120
if they agree on foreign policy with Chuck Schumer, Ben Nettinya,

2275
03:03:47,239 --> 03:03:51,319
who Joe Biden in Nancy Pelosi. It's like, I don't

2276
03:03:51,360 --> 03:03:54,520
care if you don't like the Russians. If you're ethnically

2277
03:03:54,600 --> 03:03:57,879
cleansing Slavic people on orders of a zion Is for

2278
03:03:57,959 --> 03:04:03,280
the purpose of dismantling Ukraine and Russia as discreete ethnocultural entities,

2279
03:04:03,559 --> 03:04:06,159
you're not right wing. You're some kind of fuck head

2280
03:04:06,159 --> 03:04:09,399
who's killing people for the globalist regime. Like the fact

2281
03:04:09,440 --> 03:04:11,879
you wear like a little swastigardless of a black metal

2282
03:04:12,479 --> 03:04:15,159
or because you're like some like Brony Satanists, doesn't make

2283
03:04:15,200 --> 03:04:17,120
you right wing. It just makes you a fucking idiot.

2284
03:04:17,840 --> 03:04:19,760
You know. Like if I if I like rob a

2285
03:04:19,840 --> 03:04:23,360
liquor store when I'm high on crack and say, you know,

2286
03:04:23,719 --> 03:04:26,440
God saves the King, that doesn't make me a monarchist.

2287
03:04:26,479 --> 03:04:28,600
It makes me a crackhead who robs liquor stores and

2288
03:04:28,719 --> 03:04:31,719
says weird things. You know. It's kind of the same thing. Man,

2289
03:04:32,200 --> 03:04:36,280
Like if Nambla started like wearing swasiguds nimblesics to fucking basted,

2290
03:04:36,280 --> 03:04:38,440
I'm gonna go like fucking kid because it's like beast

2291
03:04:38,920 --> 03:04:41,079
like they literally would be like that, you know. Like,

2292
03:04:41,680 --> 03:04:44,200
but that's a different I don't want to ran about

2293
03:04:44,200 --> 03:04:48,479
that and get my blood pressure up. But the uh,

2294
03:04:51,280 --> 03:04:54,479
but you know, yeah, I did. I mean, but that

2295
03:04:54,639 --> 03:04:57,079
that was basically like the situation in Italy and again

2296
03:04:57,280 --> 03:05:02,719
like uh the damastic car, these these Carbonariti like that

2297
03:05:02,879 --> 03:05:05,280
that these guys probably I don't think they wanted to

2298
03:05:05,360 --> 03:05:11,719
kill the police, but I think they definitely were like

2299
03:05:11,760 --> 03:05:16,239
guilty of the crying charge despite whatever propaganda might have

2300
03:05:16,280 --> 03:05:20,040
been milked out of it by by the Italian government.

2301
03:05:20,600 --> 03:05:23,079
Because these guys are these guys are serious, like the

2302
03:05:23,159 --> 03:05:26,200
New Order guys, they jumped the gun a little bit.

2303
03:05:26,559 --> 03:05:30,559
A lot of them didn't have practical experience as partisans

2304
03:05:30,920 --> 03:05:34,040
like the like the Growth Army fraction did you know,

2305
03:05:34,079 --> 03:05:37,559
they weren't properly trained in that stuff. But you know

2306
03:05:37,639 --> 03:05:40,360
they were serious. They were like willing to engage in

2307
03:05:40,399 --> 03:05:45,879
direct the action. But as time went on, they kind

2308
03:05:45,920 --> 03:05:52,840
of they became something of an elite uh organization. You know,

2309
03:05:52,879 --> 03:05:55,879
they very they gave, they gate kept very hard. They

2310
03:05:56,000 --> 03:06:00,760
always helped themselves out as a vanguard as tendency. You know,

2311
03:06:01,120 --> 03:06:04,879
as time went on there there kind of causeic paramilitary

2312
03:06:04,920 --> 03:06:10,200
aspect became more uh like a high speed and and incredible.

2313
03:06:11,760 --> 03:06:14,200
You know, at peak they had about ten thousand numbers

2314
03:06:14,239 --> 03:06:18,120
and these guys, Uh, this is only campaign for nuclear

2315
03:06:18,200 --> 03:06:20,840
disarmament was a big thing in Europe, which it selves

2316
03:06:20,920 --> 03:06:24,840
like a cover not just for like you know, uh

2317
03:06:25,239 --> 03:06:27,440
like like Soviet and wasn't like money was coming into

2318
03:06:27,479 --> 03:06:29,760
fund this stuff, but it's also a cover for like

2319
03:06:29,799 --> 03:06:33,799
real radicals, you know, and and and communists and anarchists

2320
03:06:33,840 --> 03:06:36,639
of varied stripes like now order they they go out

2321
03:06:36,680 --> 03:06:39,000
and like kick the shit out of these guys when

2322
03:06:39,000 --> 03:06:42,639
they'd have like protests and these like mass demonstrations, you know.

2323
03:06:42,799 --> 03:06:45,680
So that that caused the Garment in Rome to kind

2324
03:06:45,719 --> 03:06:47,360
of like raise a cyber and be like, okay, like

2325
03:06:48,319 --> 03:06:52,000
let's not just like smash these guys. And then I

2326
03:06:52,040 --> 03:06:54,719
think that had a lot to do with them kind

2327
03:06:54,719 --> 03:06:58,399
of being the Cora Gladio beyond like what I already suggested,

2328
03:06:58,639 --> 03:07:01,479
what I was just going to peculiar conditions of Italy

2329
03:07:01,600 --> 03:07:05,079
and and and nuances they're in. But it's like, Okay,

2330
03:07:05,120 --> 03:07:08,079
these guys, these guys will get dirty, Okay, you know

2331
03:07:08,200 --> 03:07:10,879
that they're not afraid to do that. And they they

2332
03:07:10,920 --> 03:07:13,719
seem to be thirsty for action, you know, so they're

2333
03:07:13,760 --> 03:07:17,799
not we we can be advised, especially if we if

2334
03:07:17,840 --> 03:07:20,200
we sent some special operations for US types to kind

2335
03:07:20,200 --> 03:07:23,120
of bring up the speed. These guys will probably be

2336
03:07:23,639 --> 03:07:26,200
like looking forward to some kind of Soviet assault where

2337
03:07:26,200 --> 03:07:29,159
they can go out and and and play cowboys and Indians.

2338
03:07:29,680 --> 03:07:34,639
It's kind of like a perfect stormist stuff. But uh,

2339
03:07:36,760 --> 03:07:43,239
later on a substantial uh the stancial percentage of these

2340
03:07:43,280 --> 03:07:51,319
guys like rejoined uh the Italian social movement, but that

2341
03:07:51,760 --> 03:07:54,000
they remained kind of like I think some of that too.

2342
03:07:54,079 --> 03:07:57,520
It was them like hemorrhaging off people who like weren't

2343
03:07:58,399 --> 03:08:02,079
really up to the task of doing extra legal stuff.

2344
03:08:02,120 --> 03:08:06,280
It's complicated, but there's a lot of historians, and not

2345
03:08:06,479 --> 03:08:11,600
just mainstream historians, but like you know, uh, like vanguardist

2346
03:08:11,639 --> 03:08:13,680
types like us, we like read this as like, oh,

2347
03:08:13,719 --> 03:08:15,799
there was a second schism. I don't think that's true.

2348
03:08:16,239 --> 03:08:19,360
But that's kind of complicated. I in the time we

2349
03:08:19,399 --> 03:08:21,760
got left, I don't want to I don't want to

2350
03:08:21,760 --> 03:08:29,559
go on that tangent deeply. But the uh and not coincidentally,

2351
03:08:29,680 --> 03:08:32,559
the New Order's motto was our honor is called loyalty.

2352
03:08:32,760 --> 03:08:38,399
I'm not gonna try and pronounce the Italian variant of that,

2353
03:08:38,680 --> 03:08:44,639
but obviously that's you know, my yeah, has Troy, my

2354
03:08:44,799 --> 03:08:47,760
loyalty is my honor which is the en SS model.

2355
03:08:49,079 --> 03:08:51,559
The symi of the organization was a double headed axe,

2356
03:08:52,079 --> 03:08:54,280
you know, like meaning like we look both right and left,

2357
03:08:54,399 --> 03:08:57,360
but you know, the ross, the folk community is the center,

2358
03:08:57,479 --> 03:09:00,680
and like we represent that as a vanguard, you know,

2359
03:09:00,760 --> 03:09:05,280
and we fight both elements from within when they threaten us,

2360
03:09:05,719 --> 03:09:08,600
but we will act as like the shpare punkd of

2361
03:09:08,760 --> 03:09:12,079
either if it advances, you know, the interests of the

2362
03:09:12,559 --> 03:09:20,840
folk community. An important side note to this is what

2363
03:09:21,040 --> 03:09:26,479
became of the British National Front, which today and I

2364
03:09:26,879 --> 03:09:29,239
can't say for sure what the state of the London

2365
03:09:29,360 --> 03:09:32,280
Street is or anything. I read the Nation and so

2366
03:09:32,440 --> 03:09:37,319
if our English and Ulster friends and Scottish friends, if

2367
03:09:37,360 --> 03:09:40,639
I'm wrong about this, please weigh in and don't be offended.

2368
03:09:40,719 --> 03:09:43,000
But I don't think I'm wrong. I think the National

2369
03:09:43,120 --> 03:09:45,399
Front the British National Fraud, not to be confused with

2370
03:09:45,479 --> 03:09:50,959
the French organization, which is a lot more mainstream and

2371
03:09:51,120 --> 03:09:56,479
regime approved. The I think the National Front these days

2372
03:09:56,559 --> 03:10:00,159
is basically a website, okay, or like a social media Uh,

2373
03:10:00,760 --> 03:10:03,159
it's got some social media presence, but like even they're

2374
03:10:03,239 --> 03:10:05,600
like nobody, not even just fold, like a couple hundred

2375
03:10:05,600 --> 03:10:07,319
people who fuck with it and don't care about it.

2376
03:10:07,840 --> 03:10:11,360
But it was a big deal in the seventies and eighties.

2377
03:10:11,760 --> 03:10:15,040
They're the fourth largest party. They're they were the largest

2378
03:10:15,040 --> 03:10:17,680
party after the lib Dems in the UK for a minute. Okay.

2379
03:10:19,079 --> 03:10:22,000
They were founded by A. K. Chesterton who had been

2380
03:10:23,319 --> 03:10:29,760
who'd been affiliated with Mosley. He came from UH. He

2381
03:10:29,840 --> 03:10:32,680
came from the League of Empire Loyalists and the first

2382
03:10:32,879 --> 03:10:40,040
British National Party and he was related to UH. He

2383
03:10:40,159 --> 03:10:42,959
was related to G. K. Schesterton. He'd been born in

2384
03:10:43,040 --> 03:10:46,399
South Africa. During the Second Bold War, his family fled

2385
03:10:46,760 --> 03:10:54,799
back to the UK. But it uh, this was uh.

2386
03:10:55,639 --> 03:10:57,959
This was during the time when Enna Powell was really

2387
03:10:58,040 --> 03:11:00,280
kind of carving out like a dissident tendance in the

2388
03:11:00,399 --> 03:11:08,239
UK too. But the National Front it really got cloud

2389
03:11:08,319 --> 03:11:11,040
when John Tindall kind of came to the helm And

2390
03:11:11,120 --> 03:11:15,959
Tindall was an interesting guy. I highly recommend his autobiography.

2391
03:11:16,000 --> 03:11:20,719
It's really it's good stuff. But you know Tindall, Uh.

2392
03:11:21,360 --> 03:11:24,360
Kindall's big thing was, you know, stop non white immigration,

2393
03:11:25,440 --> 03:11:29,040
and he campaigned on a plat from a repatriot these

2394
03:11:29,079 --> 03:11:32,079
people now, which absolutely would have been possible at that time.

2395
03:11:32,200 --> 03:11:34,680
That wasn't He wasn't just like talking shit like we're

2396
03:11:34,719 --> 03:11:36,600
gonna build a wool and it's gonna stop all these

2397
03:11:36,639 --> 03:11:38,920
Mexicans because it's a wol. It was like nothing like that.

2398
03:11:39,120 --> 03:11:41,360
It was like you could do this because the politable

2399
03:11:41,399 --> 03:11:44,000
will was there, you know, and uh, this is when

2400
03:11:44,000 --> 03:11:46,079
things are totally going to hell in Northern Ireland, and

2401
03:11:46,159 --> 03:11:48,680
Northern Ireland is relevant to this Gladio a third position

2402
03:11:48,799 --> 03:11:51,520
thing two. I'm not just on a crazy tangent, but

2403
03:11:53,680 --> 03:11:56,239
Tindall was basically like a main He was a pretty mainstream,

2404
03:11:56,319 --> 03:12:00,200
like white nationalist, empire loyalist type guy. He's like, why

2405
03:12:00,239 --> 03:12:02,680
we post the footing with the IRA, Fuck these people

2406
03:12:02,799 --> 03:12:05,239
smash them? Why are we getting flooded with these Third

2407
03:12:05,280 --> 03:12:09,719
world immigrants? Like why, you know, why? How come? You

2408
03:12:09,760 --> 03:12:11,840
know why? Why why are the Tories like talking a

2409
03:12:11,920 --> 03:12:14,959
lot of shit. But we're basically getting state socialism then,

2410
03:12:16,479 --> 03:12:18,799
and and we're not you know, we're we're not even

2411
03:12:18,799 --> 03:12:24,600
a competitive economy anymore. But something started happening within the

2412
03:12:24,680 --> 03:12:27,920
National Front and the NF two. They'd have these mass

2413
03:12:28,040 --> 03:12:34,000
rallies in London and you know, in uh, in Liverpool

2414
03:12:35,079 --> 03:12:38,559
and in Belfast, although it hit Belfast a little bit later,

2415
03:12:39,959 --> 03:12:44,239
and I'm getting ahead of myself. But the guys who

2416
03:12:44,399 --> 03:12:48,399
came to constitute the West Belfast Brigade, like C Company

2417
03:12:48,440 --> 03:12:51,559
of the West Belfast Brigade of the UDA, Johnny Adare,

2418
03:12:52,719 --> 03:12:55,319
who was who was an infamous guy and not an

2419
03:12:55,399 --> 03:12:59,399
admirable guy, very much a gangster. He was a National

2420
03:12:59,520 --> 03:13:01,520
Front still head and he was in the Rock against

2421
03:13:01,559 --> 03:13:04,280
Communism scene, and so were all his friends. And these

2422
03:13:04,319 --> 03:13:08,639
guys became C Company, okay, and like they were all

2423
03:13:08,680 --> 03:13:13,200
about the National Front. So on the one hand, like

2424
03:13:13,360 --> 03:13:19,440
Comedy eighteen and these guys other than other than the

2425
03:13:19,559 --> 03:13:25,559
mid Ulster UV which became the LVF under Billy Rice Rain.

2426
03:13:27,280 --> 03:13:29,079
You know, people say like, well it was an outlie

2427
03:13:29,200 --> 03:13:31,799
or like the far right and loyalists don't have the

2428
03:13:31,879 --> 03:13:36,040
common ground. That's not really true, okay, Like, but we'll

2429
03:13:36,040 --> 03:13:38,399
get into that in a minute. And this totally relates

2430
03:13:38,520 --> 03:13:43,079
to the third position of schismatic schismatics in Italy, which

2431
03:13:43,120 --> 03:13:46,440
in turn impacted the National Front, which in turn found

2432
03:13:46,920 --> 03:13:52,520
an audience in Ulster, specifically belf Pass. But what happened

2433
03:13:52,760 --> 03:13:58,559
in the National Front was the schism happened between what

2434
03:13:58,760 --> 03:14:02,239
was called the political soul faction and what was the

2435
03:14:02,440 --> 03:14:06,399
Flag group because the National Front zine or newsletter was

2436
03:14:06,520 --> 03:14:12,799
the Flag. Okay, But essentially Tindall leaves a National Front

2437
03:14:12,879 --> 03:14:15,520
and identity too and he forms the British National Party,

2438
03:14:15,879 --> 03:14:18,520
which in turn became the b n P of the nineties,

2439
03:14:18,879 --> 03:14:20,959
where Nick Griffin was at the helm, which is understanding

2440
03:14:20,959 --> 03:14:23,399
because Griffin was part of the political soldier faction. But

2441
03:14:27,120 --> 03:14:33,520
the uh, the National Front split during the during this

2442
03:14:33,680 --> 03:14:40,399
time appropising when Tindall left, okay, and the Official National Front,

2443
03:14:40,440 --> 03:14:44,239
which was the political soldier faction, they started they started

2444
03:14:44,280 --> 03:14:48,000
associating with this guy, Roberto Fiori. But I believe Griffin

2445
03:14:48,079 --> 03:14:51,440
actually lived with for a time, not in some weird way,

2446
03:14:51,719 --> 03:14:53,799
but like they lived into like the same rooming house

2447
03:14:53,840 --> 03:14:56,399
or a bunch of like right wing guys. It was

2448
03:14:56,440 --> 03:15:02,600
more like their h hughes basically. But the Official National

2449
03:15:02,760 --> 03:15:07,719
Front or the Political Soldier faction, they basically are like,

2450
03:15:07,840 --> 03:15:10,399
why why are we worried about preserving the monarchy? Like

2451
03:15:10,479 --> 03:15:12,639
why are we worried about trying to bring the UK

2452
03:15:13,040 --> 03:15:18,559
back to you know, as it existed between you know,

2453
03:15:18,719 --> 03:15:21,760
like the reign of you know, the minute of the

2454
03:15:21,760 --> 03:15:25,000
Prime misership A Disraeli and you know through like Getwardian

2455
03:15:25,280 --> 03:15:30,360
days to you know, basically probably like when Ramsey McDonald

2456
03:15:30,719 --> 03:15:33,159
the game PM, It's like, why is that like our model?

2457
03:15:33,920 --> 03:15:35,399
You know, He's like, we got to start looking at

2458
03:15:35,440 --> 03:15:41,879
ourselves as as uh as political soldiers. You know, Uh,

2459
03:15:42,479 --> 03:15:46,479
we got to start viewing uh, you know, America and

2460
03:15:46,639 --> 03:15:50,319
its client regime in London as our enemy just as

2461
03:15:50,360 --> 03:15:55,280
much as the communists are. They started uh making overtures

2462
03:15:55,319 --> 03:16:00,600
to cut offy because cut off he would would, uh,

2463
03:16:00,799 --> 03:16:04,680
he'd support elements that he thought would advance the goals

2464
03:16:04,760 --> 03:16:09,319
that you know. Kadafi was very much Warsaw packed adjacent,

2465
03:16:09,399 --> 03:16:13,000
like ten percent, but he was an unusual guy and

2466
03:16:13,239 --> 03:16:15,600
like my friend Big D like in you know, the

2467
03:16:15,680 --> 03:16:17,520
first time I cut con it what I mean, it

2468
03:16:17,639 --> 03:16:19,639
was no Rouken and he was talking. You know, he

2469
03:16:19,879 --> 03:16:23,200
got swept up in the indictments when when Jeff Fort

2470
03:16:23,520 --> 03:16:25,920
you know, was and the Rukens were taking money from

2471
03:16:25,959 --> 03:16:28,639
Kadafi was fourth then talk and spent on dope to

2472
03:16:28,719 --> 03:16:31,079
put on the street. And Kadafi he's like, fuck, this

2473
03:16:31,200 --> 03:16:34,399
guy put a hit on them. But you're, like Big

2474
03:16:34,479 --> 03:16:36,719
D said, He's like the a lot of the Rooken

2475
03:16:36,799 --> 03:16:39,520
leadership was all about that. But so we're like these

2476
03:16:39,559 --> 03:16:43,680
third positions guys in Europe, okay. And and of course

2477
03:16:43,799 --> 03:16:48,680
the uh like the Flag Group, you know, they they

2478
03:16:48,719 --> 03:16:51,440
were like, this is bullshit. You know, you don't you don't,

2479
03:16:52,000 --> 03:16:54,559
you don't associate with non whites. We're not radicals, you know,

2480
03:16:54,719 --> 03:17:00,360
a all of that. Okay. But as the National Front

2481
03:17:00,479 --> 03:17:07,479
was doing that, the uh you know, and and this

2482
03:17:07,600 --> 03:17:11,319
kind of stress right stuff was was being like widely

2483
03:17:11,360 --> 03:17:16,079
disseminated at least within like right wing circles, you know.

2484
03:17:16,239 --> 03:17:19,239
At this time, like in nineteen eighty six, when the

2485
03:17:19,280 --> 03:17:25,440
two wings that party formally split, it was probably about

2486
03:17:25,680 --> 03:17:29,200
they probably about like five thousand like like hardcore members

2487
03:17:29,319 --> 03:17:31,639
like paid dues and they're like like on record and

2488
03:17:31,680 --> 03:17:40,239
all of that stuff, and about uh probably about three

2489
03:17:40,319 --> 03:17:43,479
thousand of them like mhm, like stay with like the

2490
03:17:43,559 --> 03:17:47,040
mainstream National Front, but two thousand like clicked up with

2491
03:17:47,200 --> 03:17:50,559
you know, like the political soldier like official National Front

2492
03:17:54,159 --> 03:17:58,239
political Soldier wing. But they had you know in the

2493
03:17:58,399 --> 03:18:00,760
UK only here like if you got a form of play,

2494
03:18:00,760 --> 03:18:03,520
if Yourenacord is a political party, like you pay dues,

2495
03:18:03,879 --> 03:18:06,840
you know, it's like a membership organization and you've got

2496
03:18:06,920 --> 03:18:10,559
supporters who aren't at all involved in like the membership

2497
03:18:10,639 --> 03:18:14,200
side of things. So despite like what seems like paltry

2498
03:18:14,280 --> 03:18:19,520
numbers for like a protest party, that's actually pretty good

2499
03:18:19,600 --> 03:18:22,079
for the time. And like I said, these guys could,

2500
03:18:22,639 --> 03:18:24,959
these guys could get a crowd in the streets in London,

2501
03:18:25,040 --> 03:18:28,079
particularly if they were you know, if they were if

2502
03:18:28,079 --> 03:18:31,319
they were clashing you know with the campaign for nolear

2503
03:18:31,360 --> 03:18:36,879
disarment types or or or like radical left types, because

2504
03:18:36,920 --> 03:18:39,760
like people didn't like those types, you know, they just didn't,

2505
03:18:39,959 --> 03:18:42,200
you know, I mean, at end of this day, I

2506
03:18:42,239 --> 03:18:43,959
think if the man in this I realized London has

2507
03:18:44,079 --> 03:18:47,760
changed dramatically since then and since I was there in

2508
03:18:47,799 --> 03:18:52,159
the late nineties. But I I'm sure it's kind of

2509
03:18:52,200 --> 03:18:56,120
like Shytown. There's there is kind of like but the

2510
03:18:56,200 --> 03:18:59,040
silent majority type element that gets mad when they see

2511
03:18:59,079 --> 03:19:01,920
that stuff. And a lot of these non white people,

2512
03:19:02,159 --> 03:19:04,040
whether they should be there or not a different question,

2513
03:19:04,200 --> 03:19:05,799
but a lot of them don't like that shit either.

2514
03:19:07,040 --> 03:19:11,120
But you know, so plus do like the National Front,

2515
03:19:11,200 --> 03:19:17,639
even it's early iteration. You know, under Tyndall, it did stand,

2516
03:19:17,840 --> 03:19:20,799
it did contest, it did contest elections, but it viewed

2517
03:19:20,799 --> 03:19:30,200
itself as a vanguardist tendency when it did, uh that

2518
03:19:30,440 --> 03:19:35,159
change really after Tyndall left, they decided they wanted to

2519
03:19:35,239 --> 03:19:40,239
become almost like a mainstream party in some ways, you know,

2520
03:19:40,319 --> 03:19:42,719
and like a mass membership organization. This is one of

2521
03:19:42,760 --> 03:19:44,600
the reasons for the skins of my belief because for

2522
03:19:44,719 --> 03:19:47,399
something like for an organization like that, like that's fatal

2523
03:19:47,479 --> 03:19:50,280
to it. You know, it's not. It's not just that

2524
03:19:50,360 --> 03:19:54,680
you've got to adopt a vanguardist posture if you're in

2525
03:19:54,680 --> 03:19:57,719
the United States or the UK or or the EU

2526
03:19:58,719 --> 03:20:01,840
these days, like an those days, even when there's kind

2527
03:20:01,840 --> 03:20:09,120
of more room to participate in formal processes, you you

2528
03:20:09,239 --> 03:20:12,319
couldn't you couldn't just try and like reinvent yourself as

2529
03:20:12,399 --> 03:20:14,639
kind of like the dissident Tories or something like or it.

2530
03:20:15,520 --> 03:20:18,319
It wouldn't like just just by like sheer value and

2531
03:20:18,399 --> 03:20:21,879
you would be diluted and the into becoming an effectual

2532
03:20:22,000 --> 03:20:25,040
like regardless of the fact that you know, there's not

2533
03:20:25,239 --> 03:20:28,159
there's not real social capital between an organization putting people

2534
03:20:28,159 --> 03:20:30,440
in an organization like a million members or something. But

2535
03:20:31,959 --> 03:20:34,600
any event, and now that was the big thing the

2536
03:20:34,639 --> 03:20:38,799
political Soldier faction. They refuse to stay in for protect

2537
03:20:38,879 --> 03:20:48,399
contest elections, but bringing it to bringing it to bring

2538
03:20:48,479 --> 03:20:50,959
it to the to the Northern Ireland situation and kind

2539
03:20:51,000 --> 03:20:54,440
of how Gladiol which in turn kind of gave rise

2540
03:20:54,520 --> 03:20:56,760
the third position, which in turn impact like an active

2541
03:20:56,840 --> 03:21:00,760
conflict on the ground and weighs unforeseen. This guy named

2542
03:21:00,760 --> 03:21:06,200
Andy Tierry, he was born in Belfast. You know, it's

2543
03:21:06,239 --> 03:21:08,520
a poor family. He sounded like an x x ex

2544
03:21:08,600 --> 03:21:14,360
British Army soldier. He grew up in the loyalist heartland

2545
03:21:14,440 --> 03:21:21,200
on Shango Road, and his family and many others he

2546
03:21:21,239 --> 03:21:26,959
had like uh moved to bally Murphy and then New Barnsley,

2547
03:21:27,440 --> 03:21:29,559
like when his dad needed work, like you know, cause

2548
03:21:29,559 --> 03:21:31,799
among other things. In the late sixties it was like

2549
03:21:31,840 --> 03:21:35,120
a huge recession you know across the UK, but I

2550
03:21:35,159 --> 03:21:39,520
mean Belfast was especially hit hard. And when the troubles

2551
03:21:39,559 --> 03:21:43,079
kept off in sixty nine, the family, uh, they got

2552
03:21:43,159 --> 03:21:46,600
ethnically cleansed, like they're they got attacked. So they go

2553
03:21:46,760 --> 03:21:50,040
back to the shay I go Try is an ancient

2554
03:21:50,159 --> 03:21:53,799
Scottish name, So I'm sure like the Tierries are on

2555
03:21:53,879 --> 03:21:57,319
the shit list of the of the provos, anybody else,

2556
03:21:57,440 --> 03:22:02,639
Like when it first jumped off yet is his roots

2557
03:22:02,680 --> 03:22:05,239
could be traced to the early days of the ulcer plantations.

2558
03:22:05,280 --> 03:22:08,200
I mean this, this guy had like loyalism in his DNA. Okay,

2559
03:22:10,079 --> 03:22:11,920
I'm not saying that's good or bad. That's a fact.

2560
03:22:12,319 --> 03:22:17,159
It's just a fact. But so Tierry clicks up with

2561
03:22:17,319 --> 03:22:21,360
the He first clicks up with the UVF. They liked

2562
03:22:21,440 --> 03:22:24,280
him because he was serious and tough, and he was

2563
03:22:24,360 --> 03:22:26,879
literally from the Shanghio Road and his family had been

2564
03:22:27,040 --> 03:22:32,000
attacked by out of the provos or adjacent vigilantes. But

2565
03:22:32,159 --> 03:22:34,200
Tierry looks at the UVF and he's like, you know,

2566
03:22:34,280 --> 03:22:37,520
these guys are like the UVF soul notion first of all,

2567
03:22:37,680 --> 03:22:41,319
I mean it, you know, it was this the second

2568
03:22:41,399 --> 03:22:44,559
iteration which came about in sixty five and in which

2569
03:22:44,639 --> 03:22:49,159
Tierry joined. They were very, very selective. They looked at themselves,

2570
03:22:49,239 --> 03:22:52,040
this direct action element, who's job it was to kill

2571
03:22:52,159 --> 03:22:54,760
the IRA. Like, yes, they dropped a lot of civilian

2572
03:22:54,840 --> 03:22:58,399
bodies too, just to terrorize people. But their idea was

2573
03:22:58,479 --> 03:23:00,959
were not a mass members sportman is, We're not a

2574
03:23:01,079 --> 03:23:06,040
vigilante grouping. You know, we're an elite element. We're a

2575
03:23:06,159 --> 03:23:10,360
counter terrorist element. You know, we we attack the provos

2576
03:23:10,399 --> 03:23:12,760
and we killed them. You know. Tiri's old thing is like,

2577
03:23:12,840 --> 03:23:16,000
look like my family, but my family got murked and

2578
03:23:16,399 --> 03:23:18,959
and like kicked out of our home. You know, we

2579
03:23:19,239 --> 03:23:22,120
we need somebody to protect Protestant areas from this kind

2580
03:23:22,200 --> 03:23:25,319
of thing. Yes, you say, you know what, that's not

2581
03:23:25,479 --> 03:23:29,079
we do. So Tiri joins the UDA. Well, first he

2582
03:23:29,200 --> 03:23:35,120
joined the shankillt Defense Association, And there was a bunch

2583
03:23:35,159 --> 03:23:39,600
of quote defense associations that got set up in Protestant hoods,

2584
03:23:40,200 --> 03:23:46,000
especially in interface areas, and basically they'd organize on like

2585
03:23:46,120 --> 03:23:50,600
quasi military lines, you know, and like vigilantism, whether it's

2586
03:23:50,719 --> 03:23:53,440
here in the American South and whether it's an Ulster,

2587
03:23:54,120 --> 03:23:56,319
that's just like what we do. You know, that's just

2588
03:23:56,440 --> 03:24:02,479
what that's what Ulster Scott do. Okay. As the as

2589
03:24:02,559 --> 03:24:07,000
these defense organizations like started street fighting with their Catholic

2590
03:24:07,399 --> 03:24:12,920
neighbors and and with the provos and and with other elements,

2591
03:24:15,079 --> 03:24:20,159
they start getting coalesced into a single element which became

2592
03:24:20,239 --> 03:24:24,159
the Ulster Defense Association, which at peak I think had

2593
03:24:24,200 --> 03:24:29,280
about fifty thousand members. And UDA's notion they weren't outlawed

2594
03:24:29,360 --> 03:24:33,920
until nineteen ninety two because they incorporated above Board, and

2595
03:24:33,959 --> 03:24:37,000
they said we're a defense organization and like an event

2596
03:24:38,680 --> 03:24:41,840
Dublin intervenes, we're gonna go to the rifle and we're

2597
03:24:41,879 --> 03:24:44,479
going to attack, or an event you know, we get

2598
03:24:44,600 --> 03:24:49,319
sold out by London, we're gonna fight. You know. That

2599
03:24:49,479 --> 03:24:53,680
was their whole deal. And UFF was the current name

2600
03:24:53,760 --> 03:24:57,760
for the direct action element, which was Ulster Freedom Fighters. Okay,

2601
03:24:57,879 --> 03:25:00,319
those are their shooters, that's what they called themselves. And

2602
03:25:00,399 --> 03:25:03,520
they claimed that they weren't the same organization. And a

2603
03:25:03,559 --> 03:25:06,760
lot of people on the provo side as well as

2604
03:25:06,840 --> 03:25:08,879
just kind of observers are critical of how this whole

2605
03:25:08,920 --> 03:25:12,440
thing was handled by the Crown. They say like, well,

2606
03:25:13,000 --> 03:25:15,600
you know, UFF was very much like in part of

2607
03:25:15,719 --> 03:25:18,639
Crown proxy and that's why they just let it do

2608
03:25:18,760 --> 03:25:23,079
each thing. That's not the old It's it's more murky

2609
03:25:23,159 --> 03:25:31,719
than that, okay. Butterierry, he he developed a reputation for

2610
03:25:31,879 --> 03:25:35,879
two things. He was a guy who kind of raised

2611
03:25:35,920 --> 03:25:40,799
hell within the organization for like strongly heterodox ideas, and

2612
03:25:40,959 --> 03:25:43,239
he was he was very very tough, so like the

2613
03:25:43,319 --> 03:25:46,120
men respected him, even though he thought that he was

2614
03:25:47,559 --> 03:25:51,239
kind of spinning off into crazy territory. I said with

2615
03:25:51,280 --> 03:26:02,319
all respect, that's just a fact. He Heerry's kind of

2616
03:26:02,399 --> 03:26:06,280
the zenith of this tendency. In May nine seventy four

2617
03:26:06,399 --> 03:26:14,440
there was the Ulster Workers Council strike and Tierry knew

2618
03:26:14,479 --> 03:26:17,600
a bunch of these guys and like the in the

2619
03:26:17,680 --> 03:26:21,799
Belfast and Ulster wide labor movement because he'd been like

2620
03:26:21,840 --> 03:26:25,040
a shop steward like back in his like days as

2621
03:26:25,079 --> 03:26:29,399
like a factory laborer, you know, So he was he

2622
03:26:29,600 --> 03:26:33,239
was somewhat close to this guy Glenn Barr, who was

2623
03:26:34,000 --> 03:26:38,280
the strike leaders like the UDA. In those days they

2624
03:26:38,360 --> 03:26:41,079
had like a very socialist event you know, and like

2625
03:26:41,200 --> 03:26:45,120
the and like the the worst council strike like basically

2626
03:26:45,280 --> 03:26:48,399
like shut down Belfast. This was still when you know,

2627
03:26:48,520 --> 03:26:52,559
like the UK was an economy relying on national industry.

2628
03:26:52,600 --> 03:26:57,280
There's like really really food barred things. So Tierry got

2629
03:26:57,360 --> 03:26:59,879
this reputation is like this kind of like labor leader

2630
03:27:00,120 --> 03:27:02,360
and like hero the working man like which he was.

2631
03:27:02,479 --> 03:27:06,600
I wasn't cap he was those things, but he also

2632
03:27:06,799 --> 03:27:09,799
was like this like rabid loyalist. So that like raised

2633
03:27:09,840 --> 03:27:13,280
the UDA's profile because like people theretofore have been like

2634
03:27:13,760 --> 03:27:15,719
these guys are just like a munch of like yahou

2635
03:27:16,120 --> 03:27:20,200
vigilantes and killers and like sectarian wacos. They're like, oh,

2636
03:27:20,280 --> 03:27:22,680
maybe these guys are like actually like serious people or

2637
03:27:23,239 --> 03:27:25,879
and whether we like them or not, they're gonna have

2638
03:27:26,040 --> 03:27:29,239
like a serious impact on how the crisis resolves in

2639
03:27:29,319 --> 03:27:33,399
Northern Ireland. But Terry, he was a big strass arrist.

2640
03:27:34,000 --> 03:27:37,680
He was like reading the kind of content that like

2641
03:27:37,760 --> 03:27:40,559
the New Order was putting out. He was like reading

2642
03:27:40,680 --> 03:27:43,600
like potical soldier stuff that the National Front was putting out.

2643
03:27:44,719 --> 03:27:48,760
He took out. He started putting out essays and like

2644
03:27:48,840 --> 03:27:52,639
the UDA magazine. But we got a push for an

2645
03:27:52,639 --> 03:27:57,120
independent ulster like Ian Paisley's a bastard, Like fuck these

2646
03:27:57,159 --> 03:27:59,799
politicians who are trying to like piggyback on the fact

2647
03:27:59,799 --> 03:28:03,680
were fighting the war. You know. Tierry famously banned like

2648
03:28:03,719 --> 03:28:06,399
Ian Paisley from like this one UDA meeting, Like he

2649
03:28:06,479 --> 03:28:08,360
physically is like you like pushed them bags, like get

2650
03:28:08,399 --> 03:28:10,040
the fuck out of here. That made a bunch of

2651
03:28:10,079 --> 03:28:12,559
people really upset. They're like, you can't do that. He's

2652
03:28:12,559 --> 03:28:15,399
not gonna do what the fucking want. You know, what

2653
03:28:15,479 --> 03:28:19,680
are you gonna do about it? You know? So maybe

2654
03:28:19,680 --> 03:28:21,719
he had more balls and good sense in some ways,

2655
03:28:23,319 --> 03:28:26,959
but point being This is like when the third position

2656
03:28:27,239 --> 03:28:30,760
like came to Ulster, which at that point was like

2657
03:28:30,879 --> 03:28:36,879
a peaked conflict cycle. Okay, so that's kind of when

2658
03:28:37,159 --> 03:28:39,559
and people started like connecting the dots. I don't like

2659
03:28:39,719 --> 03:28:41,799
mean like you know, like the man in the street.

2660
03:28:42,520 --> 03:28:45,440
I mean it's like academic types and these military sociologists

2661
03:28:46,520 --> 03:28:48,479
and these guys were very much kind of on the

2662
03:28:49,360 --> 03:28:53,840
public affairs and psychological warfare side of special operations. They're like,

2663
03:28:53,920 --> 03:28:57,280
what's happening here, Like maybe this isn't like a great

2664
03:28:57,399 --> 03:29:01,200
thing that this third position off is like spinning off

2665
03:29:01,280 --> 03:29:05,399
from what was a very manageable and constructive, you know,

2666
03:29:06,879 --> 03:29:10,479
missing profile and Gladio and I believe that was the

2667
03:29:11,200 --> 03:29:14,799
earliest stuff that's super critical of Gladio. It kind of

2668
03:29:14,840 --> 03:29:20,600
got it kind of went into circulation again during during

2669
03:29:20,719 --> 03:29:28,120
uh the uh the premiership of of h who's the

2670
03:29:28,200 --> 03:29:31,959
Italian guy who who likes the ladies and dyed his

2671
03:29:32,079 --> 03:29:36,680
hair and like Sconi, Yeah, yeah, he bro Leasconi was

2672
03:29:36,719 --> 03:29:40,440
part of this weird like quasi Mason Lodge that people

2673
03:29:40,959 --> 03:29:42,600
added like a bunch of these guys and like they're

2674
03:29:42,639 --> 03:29:44,879
like two thousand, like oh, that's that's part of Gladio.

2675
03:29:45,479 --> 03:29:47,719
So these kind of info wars type guys and like

2676
03:29:47,840 --> 03:29:52,920
other kind of people like that, they started circling all

2677
03:29:52,920 --> 03:29:55,000
this stuff like Gladio like it's just like this big

2678
03:29:55,120 --> 03:29:58,319
conspiracy like not, and like a lot of the content

2679
03:29:58,399 --> 03:30:03,719
they were dropping about in like the later seventies, as

2680
03:30:03,840 --> 03:30:07,239
people were kind of like saying, like Gladio is a

2681
03:30:08,239 --> 03:30:10,680
is a terrorist tendency and here's why what was happening

2682
03:30:10,760 --> 03:30:13,639
in Belfast. You know, look at these cops got blown

2683
03:30:13,719 --> 03:30:16,360
up in Italy, Like look at all these bad guys.

2684
03:30:16,440 --> 03:30:19,639
Who are you know, they're fascists. They they they got

2685
03:30:19,719 --> 03:30:25,520
crazy ideas. They're sitting around reading reading Stressorus propaganda. That's

2686
03:30:25,600 --> 03:30:28,719
kind of like what brought it into and kind of

2687
03:30:28,799 --> 03:30:32,600
into the into the conscious mind of some of these people.

2688
03:30:33,680 --> 03:30:37,040
And this is this is actually important. You know, It's

2689
03:30:37,079 --> 03:30:39,920
not I realized I got like a strong research interest

2690
03:30:40,079 --> 03:30:47,399
and things and like not in Ireland. But that that that, uh,

2691
03:30:47,879 --> 03:30:51,840
that they that it's significant what we're talking about. And

2692
03:30:53,319 --> 03:30:57,360
you know, like I said too like as it later on, Yeah,

2693
03:30:57,440 --> 03:31:02,920
after Thierry was killed, Uh, you know this kind of

2694
03:31:03,040 --> 03:31:08,040
third force in the loyalist paramilitarism or third way rather

2695
03:31:10,479 --> 03:31:15,200
third position in paramilitarism that kind of endured man. And

2696
03:31:15,360 --> 03:31:17,239
like I said, like I put Billy Wright in the

2697
03:31:18,000 --> 03:31:22,079
camp even though conditions were different. By the time he

2698
03:31:22,239 --> 03:31:29,399
became powerful on the on the street. And uh, but

2699
03:31:29,559 --> 03:31:35,000
this guy, uh Tierri's buddy was this guy named Sammy Duddy.

2700
03:31:36,239 --> 03:31:40,799
And uh one of the there's a there's an there's

2701
03:31:40,799 --> 03:31:44,040
a there's a conflict resolution outreach center in Belfast named

2702
03:31:44,040 --> 03:31:46,600
from Duddy, which is interesting. But he was a guy.

2703
03:31:46,760 --> 03:31:48,719
He's a guy with a reputation, is like a thinker

2704
03:31:49,239 --> 03:31:51,879
in the U d A. And a lot of these

2705
03:31:51,959 --> 03:31:54,520
UDA guys are very committed to their politics. But a

2706
03:31:54,600 --> 03:31:56,280
lot of them are kind of like brawlers and like

2707
03:31:56,399 --> 03:32:00,200
roughnecks and and and like action oriented guys. The other

2708
03:32:00,239 --> 03:32:04,000
kinds of guys were prone to by like discussing political

2709
03:32:04,079 --> 03:32:10,600
theory with you, you know. But you know, uh Tiri

2710
03:32:10,799 --> 03:32:13,319
and uh Duddy absolutely worth those kinds of guys as

2711
03:32:13,360 --> 03:32:17,399
well as being you know, very very very hard dudes.

2712
03:32:19,200 --> 03:32:24,360
But that the uh tiriy Uh he was one of

2713
03:32:24,360 --> 03:32:26,600
the guys who found the quote the new Ulster of

2714
03:32:26,639 --> 03:32:35,440
political research group. They they they became famous or within

2715
03:32:36,319 --> 03:32:42,319
conflict study circles because uh, they published this paper called

2716
03:32:42,479 --> 03:32:48,200
UH Beyond the Beyond the Religious Divide, and it reiterated

2717
03:32:48,239 --> 03:32:50,520
the call for an independent Ulster or at least like

2718
03:32:50,559 --> 03:32:54,200
it devolved a truly devolved UH political structure to be

2719
03:32:54,280 --> 03:32:59,239
implemented and finding some way to make peace with the

2720
03:32:59,360 --> 03:33:05,399
provos and some sort of like organic capacity which was

2721
03:33:05,479 --> 03:33:10,479
really which was really which was really interesting, I think,

2722
03:33:12,440 --> 03:33:20,319
but that uh, you know, he this is this this

2723
03:33:20,520 --> 03:33:23,600
really if you look at people want to know about

2724
03:33:23,639 --> 03:33:26,280
like what the real world impact was of of Gladio

2725
03:33:26,719 --> 03:33:30,280
and whatnot. Like that's I mean, beyond the fact there's

2726
03:33:30,319 --> 03:33:34,280
a series of insane murders in Belgium that people think

2727
03:33:34,479 --> 03:33:37,799
was Gladio adjacent. I don't think that's the case. We

2728
03:33:37,920 --> 03:33:41,600
can talk about that in another I've i think playing

2729
03:33:41,600 --> 03:33:43,760
with the idea of doing some content unlike the big

2730
03:33:43,920 --> 03:33:47,399
like conspiracy theories, like the things that ways, the ones

2731
03:33:47,440 --> 03:33:49,959
that always think are worth addressing, you know, and I

2732
03:33:50,040 --> 03:33:53,040
know it's just like stupid, but that would be the

2733
03:33:53,079 --> 03:33:56,600
time to take up something like that. But that's that's

2734
03:33:56,680 --> 03:33:59,000
basically what I have on Gladio, man. And then like

2735
03:34:00,079 --> 03:34:04,520
it's just like as an addendum or an epilogue, you know,

2736
03:34:04,680 --> 03:34:09,920
this people gotta understand too, you know, the original mandate

2737
03:34:10,000 --> 03:34:14,559
of Special Operations Forces it wasn't to train Navy seals

2738
03:34:14,639 --> 03:34:18,159
to be like direct the action super commandos you know

2739
03:34:18,280 --> 03:34:24,079
who who deployed the landlocked countries and get on target

2740
03:34:24,239 --> 03:34:27,799
of individual guys who are thought to be you know,

2741
03:34:28,440 --> 03:34:31,840
teleban operatives and like penetrate our targets and then kill them.

2742
03:34:32,079 --> 03:34:36,040
That's like not what they were for, Like Special Operations Forces,

2743
03:34:36,200 --> 03:34:41,520
as Kennedy envisioned it as a William Odom who was

2744
03:34:41,600 --> 03:34:43,520
very much big army, but as he you know, he

2745
03:34:43,600 --> 03:34:47,040
had he was he was instrumental in native war planning.

2746
03:34:47,200 --> 03:34:49,760
The way he envisioned in their role in the force structure,

2747
03:34:50,479 --> 03:34:56,319
it was when Warsaw Pact overruns us, we're gonna we're

2748
03:34:56,360 --> 03:35:00,399
gonna parachute or glide in. You guys who like the

2749
03:35:00,520 --> 03:35:03,959
people in theater and talk their language are going to

2750
03:35:04,040 --> 03:35:08,399
click up with these gladiol guys on the ground and

2751
03:35:08,479 --> 03:35:11,239
you're gonna train them on how to do things operationally,

2752
03:35:11,600 --> 03:35:13,920
and you're gonna lead them and you're basically gonna play

2753
03:35:14,000 --> 03:35:18,040
Red Dawn in occupied West Germany or in Italy. Like

2754
03:35:18,200 --> 03:35:22,079
that was the idea. You know, it took time for

2755
03:35:22,159 --> 03:35:25,159
this is gonna develop into a mainstream idea, and like

2756
03:35:25,239 --> 03:35:28,280
by the late eighties, like yeah, that everybody took that

2757
03:35:28,440 --> 03:35:31,680
for granted. But this was viewed as weird and crazy

2758
03:35:32,000 --> 03:35:37,159
and dangerous and shady pretty much by everybody. And that's

2759
03:35:37,200 --> 03:35:39,840
one of the reason it's green Berets like nowadays, like

2760
03:35:40,879 --> 03:35:44,680
the spare punked up of the Army of Special Operations Forces.

2761
03:35:46,120 --> 03:35:49,840
Until the nineties, people like at green Berets as you're

2762
03:35:49,840 --> 03:35:53,399
a weirdo, you like killing people, you're probably a fascist,

2763
03:35:53,520 --> 03:35:56,280
and you're creepy, and you will never get promoted above

2764
03:35:56,479 --> 03:36:00,399
like colonel probably that's not just like something in Rambo movies.

2765
03:36:00,479 --> 03:36:05,399
That was like the way it was okay, and it

2766
03:36:05,520 --> 03:36:09,120
wasn't clear like how in a general war this would

2767
03:36:09,159 --> 03:36:12,559
actually develop because it never you never know when you

2768
03:36:12,680 --> 03:36:15,799
have a novel concept, don't get me wrong, Like this,

2769
03:36:16,000 --> 03:36:19,600
this idea of repecial forces was absolutely correct. That was

2770
03:36:19,639 --> 03:36:23,079
a very forward looking idea and it was a very

2771
03:36:23,159 --> 03:36:29,959
ballsy idea, and it was absolutely the way uh, you know,

2772
03:36:30,120 --> 03:36:34,719
Army Command Europe should have been looking at things. But uh,

2773
03:36:35,559 --> 03:36:41,360
it was not something that people felt comfortable with. And

2774
03:36:41,440 --> 03:36:43,360
of course there was a concern too, like what if

2775
03:36:43,399 --> 03:36:48,840
these guys like go native, which was entirely possible, Okay,

2776
03:36:49,479 --> 03:36:53,000
but that's that's where a lot of this kind of

2777
03:36:53,079 --> 03:36:57,319
strange uh stuff came from. In terms of cap about

2778
03:36:58,360 --> 03:37:00,600
Gladio of being this conspiracy the part it was a

2779
03:37:00,680 --> 03:37:06,639
typical typical lefty stuff about oh, the government is actually

2780
03:37:06,760 --> 03:37:09,319
fascist and doing all these bad things, like the government

2781
03:37:09,399 --> 03:37:11,760
is terrible things. But it's not because they're like secret

2782
03:37:12,000 --> 03:37:15,959
fascists or something, obviously, but the a lot of the

2783
03:37:16,079 --> 03:37:18,840
concern about this kind of stuff, that's where it came from.

2784
03:37:19,520 --> 03:37:24,760
But it did despite the fact that you know, World

2785
03:37:24,760 --> 03:37:30,520
War three never came, there was a direct impact on

2786
03:37:31,920 --> 03:37:37,319
the politics of Europe and even in conflict zones like

2787
03:37:37,399 --> 03:37:43,959
Northern Ireland. And those guys who constituted that the core

2788
03:37:44,079 --> 03:37:49,040
of these tendencies that came up with Gladiol, we they

2789
03:37:49,159 --> 03:37:51,520
are part of what we are. I mean, if if

2790
03:37:51,559 --> 03:37:55,879
you're somebody who you know is finds common cause with me,

2791
03:37:56,319 --> 03:37:58,280
I mean I'm not I'm not speaking for anybody else,

2792
03:37:58,639 --> 03:38:02,000
you know when I say we, you know, so that's

2793
03:38:02,639 --> 03:38:04,840
you've got to know. You've got to know your own heritage,

2794
03:38:05,639 --> 03:38:10,079
not just you know. Uh. In terms of ethnos and

2795
03:38:10,280 --> 03:38:14,079
and and your familiar lore and your your your race

2796
03:38:14,159 --> 03:38:16,040
and your nationality, like you've got to know, like where

2797
03:38:16,040 --> 03:38:20,040
are these ideas that you commit to or come from?

2798
03:38:20,559 --> 03:38:22,520
And that's part of it. I hope that wasn't a

2799
03:38:22,600 --> 03:38:24,680
scattershot like I said, I don't know. I think we

2800
03:38:24,760 --> 03:38:26,600
can wrap up now because I don't frankly have much

2801
03:38:26,680 --> 03:38:29,360
else and I'm not feeling good, so forgive me.

2802
03:38:30,360 --> 03:38:33,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, not a problem. I have two questions. Yeah, One,

2803
03:38:34,159 --> 03:38:37,040
were you thinking of Mark du trou when you talked

2804
03:38:37,040 --> 03:38:38,159
about the serial killer.

2805
03:38:38,280 --> 03:38:41,959
Speaker 2: Or he's he's another one who's also affiliated with that? No,

2806
03:38:42,200 --> 03:38:45,719
these guys in Belgium, they pulled these high incident robberies

2807
03:38:46,239 --> 03:38:48,840
where they'd storm like a grocery store or something like

2808
03:38:48,959 --> 03:38:50,600
not even like a turn of the made set. They'd say,

2809
03:38:51,000 --> 03:38:54,360
this is a robbery. Empty your pockets. Then they take

2810
03:38:54,440 --> 03:38:57,920
like the manager and they them open the safe and

2811
03:38:58,000 --> 03:39:00,840
they take like like like if quoting like three hundred

2812
03:39:00,879 --> 03:39:06,200
dollars or something. Then they'd kill everybody and witnesses and

2813
03:39:06,319 --> 03:39:09,040
see them like loading into this van. And it was

2814
03:39:09,159 --> 03:39:14,760
guys with like glocks and h and k's and stare

2815
03:39:15,440 --> 03:39:20,159
like like military weapons, like wearing gloves who were like

2816
03:39:20,280 --> 03:39:24,319
in shape, and it's like these guys are killing like five,

2817
03:39:25,479 --> 03:39:28,840
they're catching murder liability for five bodies to steal like

2818
03:39:28,920 --> 03:39:31,680
a few hundred dollars. And they did this like six

2819
03:39:31,799 --> 03:39:35,479
or seven times, like they were never identified. But guys

2820
03:39:35,600 --> 03:39:38,719
doing that kind of stuff like got like like three

2821
03:39:38,799 --> 03:39:41,879
to six guys would show up in like military gear

2822
03:39:42,239 --> 03:39:45,159
with like balaklavas or ski masks. This is a robbery.

2823
03:39:45,239 --> 03:39:48,600
No one's gonna get hurt. But then they kill everybody

2824
03:39:49,799 --> 03:39:53,479
and a lot of people like these guys were gladiooperatives,

2825
03:39:53,559 --> 03:39:55,639
you know, trying to scare people. But it's like why

2826
03:39:55,639 --> 03:39:57,760
would they be doing that. It's not like subsequently the

2827
03:39:57,799 --> 03:40:01,040
government of Belgium's like this is martial law. It was

2828
03:40:01,079 --> 03:40:04,120
just like they were doing this and nobody knew why

2829
03:40:04,399 --> 03:40:07,639
the government was being weird about it. Definitely said people

2830
03:40:07,639 --> 03:40:09,959
are like, oh no, they were just training for you know,

2831
03:40:10,120 --> 03:40:12,120
like on target direct the action mission. It's like, that's

2832
03:40:12,159 --> 03:40:14,440
not any train people. And if they're gonna do that,

2833
03:40:14,559 --> 03:40:16,559
you know what you do or what you would do.

2834
03:40:17,159 --> 03:40:19,360
You'd say, this is a tramp house. See if you

2835
03:40:19,399 --> 03:40:22,079
guys can get in there kill everybody and not die,

2836
03:40:22,799 --> 03:40:25,719
Like that's how you do it, you would say there's

2837
03:40:25,719 --> 03:40:29,079
some pensioners and like women and kids shopping for groceries

2838
03:40:29,360 --> 03:40:32,959
like shoot them. Oh, and nobody has any weapons like

2839
03:40:33,040 --> 03:40:36,159
that's not that doesn't make any sense. But I'm not

2840
03:40:36,239 --> 03:40:38,200
feeling well, so I'm having some brain flog. But I'll

2841
03:40:38,879 --> 03:40:41,600
I'll do chows another one though, and that case also

2842
03:40:41,719 --> 03:40:42,559
makes like no sense.

2843
03:40:43,559 --> 03:40:46,159
Speaker 1: But all right, well then I'll let you. I'll let

2844
03:40:46,239 --> 03:40:49,600
you get going here. Yeah, just do quick plugs.

2845
03:40:50,040 --> 03:40:54,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, man, thank you, Pete. I've got a lot

2846
03:40:54,079 --> 03:40:57,159
of content in the can from my pod and people

2847
03:40:57,280 --> 03:41:00,000
like my homie Jefferson Lee and like my friend Danna

2848
03:41:00,079 --> 03:41:04,840
they Ramondo. They've been like helping me with all this stuff,

2849
03:41:04,879 --> 03:41:07,559
which is awesome. So there's a lot of fresh stuff

2850
03:41:07,559 --> 03:41:11,079
on my substack where the that's where the podcast is

2851
03:41:11,120 --> 03:41:14,159
and other good stuff. It's real Thomas seven seven seven

2852
03:41:14,200 --> 03:41:19,920
dot substack dot com. I'm on social media at real

2853
03:41:20,319 --> 03:41:27,479
capital r E A L underscore number seven lowercase h

2854
03:41:27,680 --> 03:41:33,200
O M A S seven seven seven. I'm on t

2855
03:41:33,360 --> 03:41:34,280
gram and Instagram.

2856
03:41:35,200 --> 03:41:35,319
Speaker 1: Uh.

2857
03:41:35,440 --> 03:41:38,440
Speaker 2: My dear friend HERR Kreig, he puts out like branded

2858
03:41:38,520 --> 03:41:41,399
merse that we make because just like stuff that I

2859
03:41:41,479 --> 03:41:42,959
think it's cool because I'm kind of like a T

2860
03:41:43,120 --> 03:41:47,159
shirt guy and like a closed guy. If you'd include that,

2861
03:41:47,440 --> 03:41:50,120
like in the descriptions. I can never remember like what

2862
03:41:50,319 --> 03:41:55,120
the what the website is, but yeah, that's so where

2863
03:41:55,120 --> 03:41:58,360
I'm at. Then I promise im I'll be better in

2864
03:41:58,399 --> 03:42:01,000
a few days and and forgive me if this wasn't

2865
03:42:01,079 --> 03:42:01,680
up to snuff.

2866
03:42:01,760 --> 03:42:05,079
Speaker 1: Man, No, this is all good. This was uh, this

2867
03:42:05,239 --> 03:42:09,120
was good. There was a lot there. Yeah, I'll include

2868
03:42:09,200 --> 03:42:10,719
everything that you you asked.

2869
03:42:10,879 --> 03:42:12,559
Speaker 2: All right, that's a great, thank you.

2870
03:42:12,639 --> 03:42:14,200
Speaker 1: Hete all right talks. So thanks