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Start having the 47 00:01:57.159 --> 00:02:00.000 most fun ever at Chumbuck Casino dot com. 48 00:02:00.200 --> 00:02:02.480 Pret never they idivoid over every by lost your recognitions 49 00:02:02.519 --> 00:02:02.920 eighteen plus. 50 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:15.919 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 51 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:19.039 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 52 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:26.400 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK Every 53 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:30.080 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 54 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:34.400 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 55 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:48.919 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. In the winter of 56 00:02:49.039 --> 00:02:53.039 eighteen seventy three, a small band of prospectors lost their 57 00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:57.439 way in the frozen wilderness of the Colorado Rockies. Months later, 58 00:02:57.439 --> 00:03:00.800 when the snow finally melted, only one of them emerged. 59 00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:04.560 His name was Alfred G. Packer, though he would soon 60 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:08.199 become infamous throughout the country under a different name, the 61 00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:12.439 Man Eater, after the butchered remains of his five traveling 62 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:15.800 companions were discovered in the secluded valley by the Gunnison River. 63 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:21.199 Packer vanished for nine years, becoming the West's most wanted man. 64 00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:25.159 But followed was a saga of evasion and retribution as 65 00:03:25.159 --> 00:03:29.280 the Trial of the Century worked to extricate fact from myth, 66 00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:34.039 and Paul Prye, a once famous pioneering journalist, took on 67 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:38.240 the cause of Packer. Man Eater is the definitive story 68 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:42.159 of a legendary crime, a gripping tale of unspeakable suffering, 69 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:46.840 the desperate struggle for survival, and the fight to uncover 70 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:50.439 the truth. Story that we're book that were featuring this 71 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:53.919 evening is Man Eater, The Life and Legend of an 72 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:57.400 American Cannibal, with my special guests, journalist and author and 73 00:03:57.439 --> 00:04:00.879 professor Harold Scheckter. Welcome back to the program, and thank 74 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:02.680 you very much for greening to this interview. 75 00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:05.800 Harold Scheckter, Thank you for inviting me. 76 00:04:07.240 --> 00:04:10.080 Thank you very much Harold, for our audience. I just 77 00:04:10.120 --> 00:04:13.400 got to mention this is Harold Checkter is one of 78 00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:18.759 the most prolific and important true crime writers period, I 79 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:21.879 will say, in America today this period. So I thought 80 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:24.600 i'd just say that for all those stuff, and we'll 81 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:27.480 talk about at the end how many books you have 82 00:04:27.519 --> 00:04:32.360 written so far, and it is again prolific. Let's jump 83 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:35.639 right into this story. As you introduce in the very 84 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:37.759 beginning of the book, you set the stage for the 85 00:04:39.079 --> 00:04:44.160 very very i guess thorny subject of cannibalism, a subject 86 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:49.079 that everyone seems to be horrified yet fascinated by. So 87 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:52.399 let's talk about John C. Fremont and the mid eighteen 88 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:56.639 hundreds in the American West and tell us who John 89 00:04:56.680 --> 00:05:01.199 Fremont is and what's the situation, what is the reality 90 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:04.920 like in the American West in the mid eighteen hundreds. 91 00:05:05.439 --> 00:05:08.639 Well, I mean the West was at that time completely 92 00:05:08.959 --> 00:05:14.079 unexplored territory, in a very very rugged, very very primitive 93 00:05:16.560 --> 00:05:22.600 you know, this, a vast, vast unexplored wilderness. Fremont was 94 00:05:22.720 --> 00:05:28.120 who was known as the Great Pathfinder, was a person 95 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:40.000 who was sent out to chart certain pathways through the 96 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:46.480 West in the company of Kit Carson, the legendary scout 97 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:54.399 and Indian fighter, and his his Fremont's books about his adventures. 98 00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:58.879 You know, most people today remember Lewis Clark, but in 99 00:05:58.920 --> 00:06:02.600 the nineteenth century John C. Fremont was at least as 100 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:07.160 famous as one of the great pioneering explorers who opened 101 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:12.319 up the far reaches of the Western wilderness to white 102 00:06:12.759 --> 00:06:19.920 settlement and colonization. And Fremont himself became such a celebrated 103 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:25.720 figure that he was nominated as the Republican Party's first 104 00:06:25.759 --> 00:06:31.160 presidential candidate in eighteen fifty six, and one of the 105 00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:35.600 charges that was brought against him, you know, we we 106 00:06:35.680 --> 00:06:40.959 think we're living through, you know, a particularly nasty mud 107 00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:48.879 slinging presidential campaign right now. But back then, as I 108 00:06:49.040 --> 00:06:53.360 say my book, the charges that were leveled by politicians 109 00:06:53.399 --> 00:06:57.279 against each other make modern day mud slinging look like, 110 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:00.600 you know, the height of civility. And one of the 111 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:03.959 charges I was brought against Fremont was that he was 112 00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:09.000 a cannibal, which unlike some of the other charges that 113 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:13.240 he was illegitimate, that he was an adulterer, that he 114 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:17.959 was a native born Frenchman back in the mid nineteenth century, 115 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:21.000 as today people were, I guess they were kind of 116 00:07:21.000 --> 00:07:25.160 berthers around. But in any case, as it turns out, 117 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:29.720 the cannibal charge was true because on one of his expeditions, 118 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:36.519 Fremont and his men became it became trapped in these 119 00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:40.920 snow choked mountains, and when some of them died and 120 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:45.160 the others were starving, they resorted to cannibalism. So a 121 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:47.199 part of the beginning of my book, you know what 122 00:07:47.319 --> 00:07:48.759 I'm trying to. What I do in the beginning of 123 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:52.199 that book is put the Packer's story in some kind 124 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:57.639 of context, not only the context of, you know, the 125 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:03.920 incredibly harsh circumstances that these early frontiersmen and explorer's faced 126 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:07.480 in the American wilderness, but just in the context of 127 00:08:08.279 --> 00:08:15.720 attitudes towards what's called survival cannibalism. You know, situations where 128 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:22.079 men in extremely dire circumstances of extreme starvation have resorted 129 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:27.720 to cannibalism as their only means of survival. And let 130 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:32.480 me just interject, you know, I mean, I've written, as 131 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:38.840 you know, about some of America's most notorious cannibal killers, 132 00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:44.480 most notably Albert Fish, you know, the infamous cannibal pedophile 133 00:08:44.600 --> 00:08:50.200 of the nineteen twenties and thirties. The book Mannire doesn't 134 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:56.879 deal with that kind of psychopathic serial murder. Cannibalism deals 135 00:08:56.919 --> 00:09:02.279 with a case of survival, analysm and murder, but not 136 00:09:02.440 --> 00:09:03.159 serial murder. 137 00:09:07.000 --> 00:09:11.000 Now with this you talk about, it's probably well known 138 00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:13.799 about the gold rush in California, but as you write 139 00:09:13.799 --> 00:09:16.480 in the book, within about ten years they said the 140 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:20.320 rivers were panned out and disillusioned miners were searching elsewhere. 141 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:24.519 So in nineteen fifty eight you talk about William Green Russell, 142 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:28.200 where do they resort to and where's the new El Dorado. 143 00:09:29.080 --> 00:09:35.080 It's actually eighteen fifty eight, and it was in there 144 00:09:35.120 --> 00:09:39.320 were these various mineral strikes gold and silver in the 145 00:09:39.399 --> 00:09:46.399 Colorado Rockies and a particularly rich strike or in the 146 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:52.559 San Juan Mountains in southwestern Colorado, and that's set off 147 00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:58.200 a second gold and silver rush that brought thousands of them, 148 00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:03.919 you know, get rich copefuls flocking to the mountains of Colorado. 149 00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:08.000 You know, there was a famous one of them was 150 00:10:08.120 --> 00:10:13.879 Pike's Peak, and you'd have thousands and thousands of these 151 00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:19.240 people in covered wagons with Pike's Peaker bust written am 152 00:10:19.320 --> 00:10:24.159 ba canvas canopies. So, you know, Packer became caught up 153 00:10:24.200 --> 00:10:26.840 in that, in that kind of hysteria. 154 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:34.159 Now with this as well, with this mining craze, we're 155 00:10:34.200 --> 00:10:37.440 not talking about a place that's not fraught with its 156 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:43.559 own problems in terms of accessibility and danger and the elements, 157 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:47.000 in terms of the weather in the winter or weather 158 00:10:47.080 --> 00:10:48.960 in all the seasons. So tell us a little bit 159 00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:49.360 about that. 160 00:10:51.559 --> 00:10:55.600 Well, you know, Colorado's you know, a gloriously beautiful place. 161 00:10:55.720 --> 00:10:59.799 I actually lived in Colorado's for a year myself. But 162 00:11:00.240 --> 00:11:03.720 you know, the rockies in the winter, and particularly back 163 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:10.120 then when it was largely uninhabited by you know, white settlers, 164 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:13.600 so excuse me, you know, other than you know, there 165 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:17.279 were some cities like Denver and so on, but but 166 00:11:17.360 --> 00:11:20.519 in terms of the San Juan Mountains, very very few 167 00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:24.759 outposts of the civilization, and in the winter, the conditions 168 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:29.720 were incredibly harsh. You know that there might be three 169 00:11:29.799 --> 00:11:32.799 or four feet of snow in the grounds. There were 170 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:39.159 these you know, precipices and gullies and chasms. I mean, 171 00:11:39.559 --> 00:11:43.200 it was you really took your life in your hands 172 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:49.159 trying to negotiate that landscape in the middle of winter. Uh. 173 00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:55.600 And you know that's what happened with Packer and his comrades. 174 00:11:56.480 --> 00:12:00.559 They set off very confidently in the belief that they 175 00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:03.519 could make their destination in a certain amount of time, 176 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:07.679 and quickly found out that, you know, they had seriously 177 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:11.720 underestimated the harshness of the environment and the severity of 178 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:12.759 the elements. 179 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:19.480 Let's talk a little bit about this. Alfred Packer very 180 00:12:19.480 --> 00:12:23.919 interesting you talk about not is his childhood, but you 181 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:27.639 can get it back towards be previous to obviously this 182 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:33.679 fateful event where the men die and there's cannibalism. Tell 183 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:36.440 us a little bit about how James Packer from Salt 184 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:40.519 Lake City comes to the Denver area and under what 185 00:12:40.639 --> 00:12:42.320 circumstances and why. 186 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:50.600 Okay, Alfred Packer kas Packer Well Packer was born in Pennsylvania. 187 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:54.759 He always claimed to be related to a very prominent 188 00:12:55.080 --> 00:12:59.320 Pennsylvania named Asa Packer, who was a railroad magnet and 189 00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:02.679 the founder of the High University. That was one of 190 00:13:02.720 --> 00:13:07.759 the many fabrications that Packer indulged in. The family subsequently 191 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:11.879 moved to Indiana. Packer left home at a relatively young 192 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:16.840 age and in his mid adolescence and enlisted in the 193 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:22.559 Union Army during the Civil War. Packer was afflicted again 194 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:29.200 from childhood with grandmu epilepsy UH, and so he ended 195 00:13:29.240 --> 00:13:33.440 up getting a disability discharged. He he was he was 196 00:13:33.480 --> 00:13:38.519 subject to very very very extreme UH and increasingly frequent 197 00:13:38.600 --> 00:13:44.360 seizures as a result of that illness. He re enlisted 198 00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:52.080 a different a different unit. He event was discharged again, 199 00:13:52.679 --> 00:14:00.440 eventually drifted out West. He claimed again apparently falsely, to 200 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:06.159 have served with George Armstrong Custer. But in any case, 201 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:12.600 you know many details of his past or shrouded in obscurity, 202 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:17.039 but we do know that by the early eighteen seventies 203 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:21.360 he had drifted around west again. He was doing some prospecting, 204 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:28.720 making his living in various odd jobs. He eventually made 205 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:34.960 his way to Utah, and that's really where the saga 206 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:37.200 of Alfred Packer picks up. 207 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:44.320 Now, tell us the situation you talk about writing the 208 00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:48.639 introduction of the book, that the circumstances to which people 209 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:52.279 would resort to cannibalism. And throughout the book you cite 210 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:58.480 examples of not only historic examples and less known examples 211 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:03.399 of cannibalism in America, but also the prevailing attitude by 212 00:15:03.480 --> 00:15:05.559 society at that time towards it. 213 00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:13.200 Yeah, so, well, you know society was sorry, go ahead, no, no, well, 214 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:19.519 you know society was you know, in first of all, 215 00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:22.679 of course, it's always been a subject of incredible fascination 216 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:27.879 to people, you know, who respond with a mixture, well 217 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:31.279 with kind of titillated horror. You know, the most famous 218 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:35.039 case in American history, you know, the Donner Party, which 219 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:39.600 happened some years before the Packer case. And you know, 220 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:45.759 depending on well, to some extent, depending on the character 221 00:15:45.840 --> 00:15:49.559 of the people who ended up having having to resort 222 00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:54.159 to those extremities. You know, the attitude could be fairly forgiving. 223 00:15:56.080 --> 00:16:01.320 You know. In fact, one thing I do discovered in 224 00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:07.600 my researches is that cannibalism per se is not really 225 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:15.080 illegal in virtually all states of the Union. So uh, 226 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.399 you know. So so there are many many instances, or 227 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:24.840 significant number of instances in American history where people again 228 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:33.200 who have been in these unimaginably nightmarish circumstances, uh and 229 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:37.559 and driven half crazed by hunger and were near death 230 00:16:37.639 --> 00:16:43.200 by starvation themselves, and who resorted to surviving on the 231 00:16:43.240 --> 00:16:48.399 flesh of you know, dead companions that you know, those people, 232 00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:52.279 you know, have often been been regarded fairly sympathetically by 233 00:16:52.279 --> 00:16:55.279 the public. Uh. You know, there's a famous case. I 234 00:16:55.399 --> 00:16:58.000 just made a movie about it, the Welsh of Essex, 235 00:16:58.759 --> 00:17:03.399 which was one, you know, very very famous case. They 236 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:05.200 made him. There was a book in the Heart of 237 00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:08.559 the Sea and a movie recently released about him. Was 238 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:11.480 one of the inspirations for the book Moby Dick, you know, 239 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:14.559 where these sailors who were stuck on this life both 240 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:20.000 you know, ended up surviving by cannibalizing their dead, dead comrades, 241 00:17:20.039 --> 00:17:26.079 and you know those people were should not only not punish, 242 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:29.680 but again you know, treated very sympathetically. 243 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:38.759 Now you also introduced the situation, the circumstances in which 244 00:17:40.119 --> 00:17:45.079 Alfred Packer joins this group of people. Again, we there 245 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.720 is a mix of some of the storytelling he does 246 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:52.400 about his background and to that testament, he does a 247 00:17:52.400 --> 00:17:55.240 little bit of this trying to describe himself as a guide. 248 00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:58.880 So in that with this little tale about him being 249 00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:03.599 a guide, Yeah, how does he impress these people enough 250 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:06.640 so that they can take them on board? Because there 251 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:09.640 wasn't amount of fee that was required to be joining 252 00:18:09.640 --> 00:18:12.079 this journey, So tell us how he circumvented that and 253 00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:13.319 how he came to be included. 254 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:18.680 Well, you know, there was a group of about twenty 255 00:18:19.240 --> 00:18:27.000 miners who were all living around Bingham, Utah at the time, 256 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:31.240 and you know, Packer got wind of the fact that 257 00:18:31.319 --> 00:18:35.279 they were organizing in an expedition to the San Juan 258 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:40.799 Mountains to prospect for silver, and Packer, who as you said, 259 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:44.720 had no money at the time, offered his services as 260 00:18:44.759 --> 00:18:48.839 a guide, claiming that he had spent a lot of 261 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:51.799 time in the area, and he had in fact spent 262 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:56.759 some of his time in Colorado for sure, and that 263 00:18:56.839 --> 00:18:59.920 he would be able to lead them to their destiny 264 00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:02.720 in a very short time. None of the other men, 265 00:19:02.759 --> 00:19:08.440 among these other twenty miners had ever been to Colorado, 266 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:14.559 so they were willing to. Well, this one prospector whose 267 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:17.000 name was McGrew, you know, kind of took a shine 268 00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:20.240 to Packer, was willing to grub stake him as you 269 00:19:20.279 --> 00:19:23.720 put it, that is, you know, pay his way in 270 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:26.839 return for you know, Packer helping him out with his 271 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:34.559 horses and zen, but also you know, his services supposedly 272 00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:39.160 as a guide who could lead them to where they 273 00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:42.279 wanted to go in a matter of you know, a 274 00:19:42.279 --> 00:19:44.359 couple of weeks. 275 00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:49.839 Now with this, these people had seen people perish before 276 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:53.720 because of starvation. So these people set out to calculate 277 00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:58.279 and then acquire enough supplies that they wouldn't starve. Great 278 00:19:58.319 --> 00:20:01.519 tell us how it was that with the supplies, But 279 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:05.279 also was this a dangerous or not dangerous time to 280 00:20:05.319 --> 00:20:09.480 be going? And did anybody advise against leaving at that time? 281 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:14.720 Well, when they initially set out from being a Utah, 282 00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:20.640 you know, they left Trying to remember exactly, I think 283 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:24.519 they set out in November eighteen twenty one men, including Packer, 284 00:20:25.240 --> 00:20:30.519 set out from Utah in November eighteen seventy three, and 285 00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:36.240 again Packer assure them that they could make their journey 286 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:40.599 well within certainly within a month, so that they would 287 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:48.720 arrive there, you know again before you know, well they're 288 00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:53.079 according to him, you know, the harshest part of the winter. 289 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:59.079 In the event they didn't, they didn't get to the 290 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:03.319 area if three months, because they rapidly became clear that 291 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:07.079 Packer had no idea how to get where they were going. 292 00:21:07.400 --> 00:21:10.960 But but yeah, so so you know, so the numbers, 293 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:14.519 so the supplies that they equipped themselves with, you know, 294 00:21:14.559 --> 00:21:18.400 we're all based on this estimated time that Packer had 295 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:26.480 given them, which was you know, severely severely uh, you know, underestimated. 296 00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:32.839 But yes, and then also they felt that they could 297 00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:37.960 probably you know, supplement their supplies by killing game along 298 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:41.640 the way. But again the weather was so much harsher 299 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:46.440 than they had anticipated that they encountered very very very 300 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:47.680 little game to kill. 301 00:21:50.440 --> 00:21:53.599 Important part of this story, too, is the fascinating history 302 00:21:53.759 --> 00:21:57.599 that's included in this amazing story and about if I'm 303 00:21:57.640 --> 00:22:04.799 pronouncing it right, the UT's Uti Indians and Utes and 304 00:22:05.319 --> 00:22:09.680 the Utes Indians of Colorado. And you also include the 305 00:22:10.279 --> 00:22:13.759 incredible history of the negotiation and how much land that 306 00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:17.519 they that they had owned and negotiated successfully for, but 307 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:23.319 also their experience in living and surviving this often harsh area. 308 00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:26.880 So tell us a little bit about that story, about 309 00:22:27.079 --> 00:22:32.160 these unique Indians and their connection to this story. 310 00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:39.000 Well, I mean, the Youthes were this loose confederation of 311 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:44.920 different tribes who were populating this really vast area of 312 00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:50.359 the Colorado Territory. And of course, you know, we all 313 00:22:50.480 --> 00:22:56.559 know that you know, very very sorry history of you know, 314 00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:02.440 of of white American expansion into those into that frontier. Uh. 315 00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:08.119 You know, as soon as any valuable resource you know, gold, 316 00:23:08.279 --> 00:23:14.920 silver or whatever was discovered uh on you territory, there 317 00:23:14.920 --> 00:23:20.960 would be this incredible incursion of of of wide American settlers. 318 00:23:21.640 --> 00:23:26.920 Uh and you know, increasing uh conflict between the whites 319 00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:32.759 and the Native Americans, and uh, you know, the the 320 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:38.319 the the Indians were constantly forced into this position, you know, 321 00:23:38.440 --> 00:23:43.119 of having to negotiate these treaties which would guarantee them 322 00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:49.720 supposedly in perpetuity, you know, all this land, you know, 323 00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:51.759 but as soon again, you know, again, as soon as 324 00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:56.680 somebody discovered more gold or silver on the Indian reservation. Uh, 325 00:23:56.759 --> 00:23:59.759 there would be another invasion of white settlers and you 326 00:23:59.839 --> 00:24:03.039 know the Indians, uh, you know, this land that had 327 00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:06.480 been promised to them forever, they suddenly had to be renegotiated, 328 00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:10.400 and you know, their reservations became smaller and smaller and 329 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:15.440 smaller and smaller. Uh. They there was a very very 330 00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:20.400 remarkable figure named Chief Uray who became sort of the 331 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:26.079 designated chief of the youth nation. Uh and who you know, Uh, 332 00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:32.039 it was a figure that you know, the white white 333 00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:35.839 America and some of his own people had somewhat different 334 00:24:35.880 --> 00:24:38.240 feelings about. You know, some of his own people, I 335 00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:41.200 guess saw him kind of as what later came to 336 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:45.960 be called an Uncle Tom who was betraying them, you know, 337 00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:48.920 to the whites. He was you know this, no, you 338 00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:51.319 know this well he was called a friend to the whites. 339 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:54.680 But you know, he was kind of a visionary person. 340 00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:57.759 I mean he understood that, you know, he was between 341 00:24:58.039 --> 00:25:00.359 the proverbial rock and a hard place. I mean he 342 00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:06.359 understood that, you know, without negotiating these these treaties, his 343 00:25:06.480 --> 00:25:11.119 people are just going to be totally exterminated. So yeah, 344 00:25:11.240 --> 00:25:15.440 so those were the that was the native population that. 345 00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:21.759 You know that Packer and his companions and all the 346 00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:25.359 all the white prospectors and settlers to the area, you know, 347 00:25:25.559 --> 00:25:27.359 had to confront and deal with. 348 00:25:30.640 --> 00:25:34.039 Now, let's talk about how he gets down to its 349 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:41.000 five companions and himself, including George Noon and alatzen Heiser 350 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:46.000 and his friend McGrew, who really was pretty sympathetic and 351 00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:49.160 sort of the attitude what what do they think about 352 00:25:50.079 --> 00:25:53.799 Alfred Packer after they realized he really wasn't much of 353 00:25:53.839 --> 00:25:56.400 a guide and they were didn't have much to eat 354 00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:56.680 at all. 355 00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:01.200 Well, I mean, some of the men. There's a guy 356 00:26:01.240 --> 00:26:05.799 named Laussenheiser, as you mentioned, another guy named Nutter in particular. 357 00:26:06.279 --> 00:26:09.720 You know, some of the men had this antipathy towards 358 00:26:09.759 --> 00:26:13.440 Packer from the beginning. You know, I don't think Packer 359 00:26:13.519 --> 00:26:19.000 had the most winning personality, and according to against some 360 00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:21.519 of the people he was traveling with, you know, he 361 00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:27.440 seemed to be displaying kind of suspicious interest in the 362 00:26:27.480 --> 00:26:30.319 amount of money they were carrying with them, and you know, 363 00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:34.799 they also felt that he was hogging much of their 364 00:26:35.400 --> 00:26:39.680 increasingly diminishing provisions. So there were a few of the 365 00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:47.559 men there who really bitterly disliked and distrusted Packer even 366 00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:52.519 before it became clear that he had completely misled them 367 00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:57.839 into thinking that he could serve as a god the 368 00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:01.160 people he was traveling with. This guy McGrew in particular, 369 00:27:01.839 --> 00:27:04.920 you know, fell much more warmly towards Packer and felt 370 00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:10.880 sorry for him. The other thing, again, were these terrible 371 00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:15.799 seizures that that Packer was subject to, you know, which 372 00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:18.240 some of the men you know, were really really really 373 00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:24.079 put off by, unsettled by in a very very deep way. 374 00:27:24.200 --> 00:27:27.720 I mean, they found it very very disturbing. You know, 375 00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:31.240 McGrew was much more sympathetic and would really tend to 376 00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:33.599 Packer when he was in the throes of one of 377 00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:38.160 these seizures. But but Packer definitely, you know, even again 378 00:27:38.359 --> 00:27:42.559 before it became queer that he really had no idea 379 00:27:42.599 --> 00:27:46.440 where he was going, had made had made enemies among 380 00:27:46.519 --> 00:27:46.920 those men. 381 00:27:48.759 --> 00:27:52.640 So in fairly short order, certainly a lot sooner than 382 00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:55.519 they thought, they were already considering eating one of their horses. 383 00:27:55.599 --> 00:27:59.480 So we're talking about they went from a completely different 384 00:28:00.039 --> 00:28:04.759 made of mind and mode in if they're considering their horses. 385 00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:09.240 So tell us about the first decisions to eat something 386 00:28:09.319 --> 00:28:13.960 other than and and you talk about eating things other 387 00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:14.960 than animals as well. 388 00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:19.480 So well, you know, as I said, a packer had 389 00:28:19.559 --> 00:28:22.240 promised he would get them, you would get them to 390 00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:27.359 the their their destination of the San Juan Mountains, you know, 391 00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:32.319 from utah in in less than a month. Uh. And 392 00:28:32.680 --> 00:28:37.599 they had they had, you know, equipped themselves accordingly with provisions. 393 00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:44.160 It Uh, it's a little unclear. I mean even they 394 00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:52.039 probably you know, were undersupplied even even to that extent. Again, 395 00:28:52.079 --> 00:28:54.839 they were hoping to encounter much more game than they did. 396 00:28:55.599 --> 00:28:59.119 So yeah, by by the time they were by the 397 00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:03.319 time they actually finally did reach the San Juan Mountains 398 00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:07.519 of Colorado, they had been reduced to eating the horse feed. 399 00:29:07.559 --> 00:29:12.680 I mean, they had eaten their horses grain. They were 400 00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:17.440 really in a state of near starvation. They were, yes, 401 00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:20.920