WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:00.760 Get value. 2 00:00:00.800 --> 00:00:03.120 You can't argue with at Tesco with their amazing club 3 00:00:03.160 --> 00:00:06.160 card prices. Serve up something special with our finest Meil 4 00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:08.839 deal for two starring one main, two sides and dessert 5 00:00:08.919 --> 00:00:12.039 for only sixteen euro like succulent Board, be approved Virus 6 00:00:12.039 --> 00:00:14.880 Shined the Strip loin Steaks with peppercorn butter or Delicious 7 00:00:14.919 --> 00:00:18.399 Virus Chicken Parmegama served with creamy potato gretam under a 8 00:00:18.480 --> 00:00:22.199 mix of rainbow root vegetables and enjoy Goozillionaire or Solder 9 00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:25.440 caramel cheesecake. Can't argue with that shop in store or 10 00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:29.120 online Tesco. Every little helps available to most doores, prices 11 00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:30.120 very inn express. 12 00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:33.439 Oh hey, it's the guy on next door who is like, 13 00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:36.439 does anyone want some zucchinis? Because no one warned him 14 00:00:36.479 --> 00:00:39.240 that unattended zucchinis can grow to be the size of 15 00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:42.840 a human baby. Ali Ward back with an instant classic 16 00:00:42.960 --> 00:00:46.560 episode of Ologies. This is an episode you're gonna listen 17 00:00:46.600 --> 00:00:48.280 to more than once. I'm going to tell you right now, 18 00:00:48.320 --> 00:00:52.399 not because the subject matter demands it for comprehension, but 19 00:00:52.479 --> 00:00:56.679 because it is the very ethos of ologies, all wrapped 20 00:00:56.759 --> 00:01:01.359 up in the most soothing, mellow audio. Hug you will 21 00:01:01.399 --> 00:01:05.799 ever lay yours on. It's overlooked beauty, It's following bliss, 22 00:01:06.000 --> 00:01:09.359 It's Mythbustinger. Okay, let me just run through the things. 23 00:01:09.400 --> 00:01:11.120 Let's get to the show. So thank you to all 24 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:13.680 the supporters. At patreon dot com slash Ologies. You can 25 00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:15.519 join for as little as a buck a month and 26 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:19.079 submit questions. Perhaps hear yours asked in future episodes. Thanks 27 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:22.359 to everyone wearing Ologies shirts and hats and bikinis and 28 00:01:22.439 --> 00:01:25.879 new face coverings at ologiesmirch dot com links in the 29 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:29.000 show notes. Tag yourself in hashtagologies. Merch on Instagram will 30 00:01:29.040 --> 00:01:31.599 repost you. Thanks to everyone who rates and subscribes and 31 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:34.319 leaves reviews. I read all of them. They help Ologies 32 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:35.640 stay at the top of the science charts. 33 00:01:35.760 --> 00:01:36.079 Thank you. 34 00:01:36.159 --> 00:01:38.840 I like cheese Rich, who wrote, not only is information 35 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:41.599 put in accessible language, but it also opens up your 36 00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:43.640 eyes to all the wonderful things there are to know 37 00:01:43.840 --> 00:01:46.200 and do in the world. Oh, I like cheese Rich. 38 00:01:46.400 --> 00:01:47.159 You have no idea. 39 00:01:47.400 --> 00:01:49.239 This is right in line with that. If anyone else 40 00:01:49.319 --> 00:01:51.599 left a review this week, I one hundred percent read 41 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:54.640 it and appreciated it, including some suggestions for future episodes 42 00:01:54.680 --> 00:01:59.599 on rocks and squirrels and the unhoused crisis appreciated. Okay, briology. 43 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:04.239 Brio in Greek straight up means moss, So thank you Greek. 44 00:02:04.359 --> 00:02:04.920 That was quick. 45 00:02:05.159 --> 00:02:09.520 So this briologist is perhaps the most beloved in her field. 46 00:02:09.800 --> 00:02:12.879 She got her bs in botany from Sunni Environmental Science 47 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:16.280 and Forestry and a master's and a PhD in botany 48 00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:20.159 from the University of Wisconsin. She has published numerous papers 49 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:24.039 on mosses and plants and traditional ecological knowledge. She is 50 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:29.840 a distinguished teaching professor. She covers botany, ethnobotany, indigenous environmental issues. 51 00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:32.759 She's been a TED speaker. She's an enrolled member of 52 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:37.000 the Citizen Potawatami Nation and the author of two huge books, 53 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:41.120 The Gorgeous Gathering Moss, a Natural and cultural history of mosses, 54 00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:45.800 and the New York Times bestselling Braiding Sweet Grass, Indigenous Wisdom, 55 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:49.520 Scientific Knowledge and the Teachings of Plants. Many many people 56 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:51.960 have suggested and begged that I get her on the show, 57 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:54.599 So thank you to brain Picking's own Maria Popova for 58 00:02:54.680 --> 00:02:58.080 the nudge in her direction. We set up a time 59 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:03.319 to meet. Virtually, I listened to this ologist's velvety, soft 60 00:03:03.400 --> 00:03:07.639 voice via audiobooks so much that I was so nervous. 61 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:11.080 I was afraid I'd be too loud or jarring, or 62 00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:14.280 I'd make an airhorn noise with my mouth. So I 63 00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:17.199 did my best just to keep calm. And this episode 64 00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:21.159 is just a gorgeous stroll through the forest floor, an 65 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:26.719 eye opening loop, squinting gaze at hidden mysteries, and an intro. 66 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:29.280 To your new hero. We cover what is a moss? 67 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:30.240 Where do they grow? 68 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:32.560 Can you eat them? Should you have one as a 69 00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:33.120 bath matt? 70 00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:35.520 Are they soft to nap on? What's up with lichen? 71 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:38.759 How to incorporate your native teaching into your science work, 72 00:03:38.919 --> 00:03:43.360 or how to recognize and appreciate indigenous knowledge without appropriating it? 73 00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:48.800 And moss smoothies with the moss wonderful briologist Doctor Robin 74 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:50.639 Wall Kimmerer. 75 00:04:08.199 --> 00:04:10.479 After, of course, well there's that. 76 00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:17.040 And so now you are talking to me from from 77 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:17.959 New York right now? 78 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:20.199 Yes, I live in upstate New York. 79 00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:21.879 How are the seasons changing right now? 80 00:04:22.920 --> 00:04:25.680 Oh, it is just the height of June. I live 81 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:29.000 out in farm country and so it's hay making weather. 82 00:04:29.160 --> 00:04:32.000 So the air is just full of the wonderful scent 83 00:04:32.120 --> 00:04:35.720 of new cut hay. And wildflowers. It's really sort of 84 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:40.839 the peak of photosynthesis right now. So it's pretty lovely. 85 00:04:42.120 --> 00:04:45.319 I know from reading you know, your books that you've 86 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:48.879 you've always been obviously drawn to the outdoors. Do you 87 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:53.000 remember some of your first kind of interactions with looking 88 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:55.439 at plants and looking at at wild growth. 89 00:04:57.160 --> 00:05:02.120 You know, it's it's really almost impossible for me to 90 00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:06.240 pinpoint that because I just grew up in the natural world. 91 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:10.000 It was always part of my being and part of 92 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:14.319 my family experience, and so it's hard to say there 93 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:18.800 was a moment when I really connected. But I had 94 00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:22.959 the benefit of a rural childhood and parents who were 95 00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:28.959 avid outdoors people and naturalists, and I think that I 96 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:33.879 was mostly shaped by these old farm fields that were 97 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:38.639 around where I grew up. That meadow kind of array 98 00:05:38.680 --> 00:05:43.560 of wildflowers and wild strawberries and all of that was 99 00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:48.000 certainly the formative landscape for me as a naturalist. I'd 100 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:51.480 call it my backyard, except it was, you know, the landscape, 101 00:05:51.519 --> 00:05:52.160 not my yard. 102 00:05:54.279 --> 00:05:57.399 And what about different plants? 103 00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:00.680 What drew you to mosses in particular? 104 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:05.360 You know, it's a it's an odd story in that 105 00:06:06.279 --> 00:06:09.480 I've always been, of course drawn to plants. And when 106 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:13.319 I went away to college to be a botany major, 107 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:16.959 I took every botany class I could get my hands on, 108 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:19.680 and there were a lot of them. And the only 109 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:25.439 one I didn't take was the ecology of mosses. No, really, 110 00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:28.199 I left it till the last I thought, oh, really, 111 00:06:28.240 --> 00:06:31.600 you know, it's just this tiny, little green film. How 112 00:06:31.639 --> 00:06:36.680 could that be interesting? So I'm really familiar with this 113 00:06:36.839 --> 00:06:39.600 notion of the overlooked world because I did it myself. 114 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:45.759 I was really interested in forest ecology, and so I 115 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:49.519 overlooked the masses. But then I took one class in it. 116 00:06:50.120 --> 00:06:53.240 That moment, I remember it was the first day of 117 00:06:53.279 --> 00:06:56.360 my Ecology of mosses class, and putting a lens on 118 00:06:56.480 --> 00:07:01.160 the mosses and seeing a forest in nature, and it 119 00:07:01.319 --> 00:07:05.480 was love at first sight. Oh so yeah. 120 00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:09.560 And I remember in gathering moss you mentioned that you 121 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:13.279 had kind of a loop, a magnifying glass, and you 122 00:07:13.759 --> 00:07:16.360 spent some of your some of your money to get 123 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:16.720 your own. 124 00:07:17.480 --> 00:07:17.839 Uh huh. 125 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:20.439 Yeah, And I still have it. 126 00:07:20.600 --> 00:07:23.120 When I think of the innumerable objects I have lost 127 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:25.759 in my life, I have never lost my loop. 128 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:30.519 And you know, this is. 129 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:34.120 Such a This is obviously a stupid question but what 130 00:07:34.519 --> 00:07:37.600 is a moss For someone who doesn't know, Well, how 131 00:07:37.639 --> 00:07:39.000 do you even define a moss? 132 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:43.279 I'm glad you asked, because when people hear about my 133 00:07:43.399 --> 00:07:46.240 passion for mosses, they look at me really funny and 134 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:50.360 they think, like, you mean that green scum? Like, no, no, 135 00:07:50.439 --> 00:07:55.439 I don't mean green scum. Mosses are the oldest plants 136 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:58.680 on the planet. People say they are primitive. Really, they're 137 00:07:58.800 --> 00:08:02.160 very sophisticated, I think, but they're primitive because they're so 138 00:08:02.279 --> 00:08:07.439 small and simple. That's why people classify them that way. 139 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:11.399 But mosses are members of the plant kingdom, the first 140 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:16.519 plants to colonize land three hundred and fifty million years ago. 141 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:20.720 When I think about what is a moss, a moss 142 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:24.079 is really a miniature forest. 143 00:08:25.079 --> 00:08:27.160 Did I just purchase a thirteen dollars loop to go 144 00:08:27.199 --> 00:08:29.079 look at mosses and pretend like I'm in a movie 145 00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:32.080 called Honey I shrunk the biologist? I most definitely did. 146 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:34.519 And are they do? 147 00:08:34.639 --> 00:08:40.320 They have roots systems that are much different than trees. 148 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:43.440 How are they able to cling to so many surfaces? 149 00:08:44.360 --> 00:08:46.720 Well, that's really the important question, you know, when you 150 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:50.960 said what is a moss? Oftentimes the best way to 151 00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:55.320 answer that is what do mosses not have? Ali They 152 00:08:55.320 --> 00:09:01.480 don't even have roots, really, no, who are not rooted plants, 153 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:04.200 and that's how they can cling. They do have these 154 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:09.399 little threadlike structures called rhizoids, which allow them to attach, 155 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:14.519 but they're not absorptive the way roots are. They don't 156 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:18.919 have the capacity to take up water and nutrients. They're 157 00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:22.279 really just points of attachment. 158 00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:25.799 So think of a muscle like a bivalve attaching to 159 00:09:25.879 --> 00:09:29.279 a rock or a boat. They're not eating through those fibers. 160 00:09:29.279 --> 00:09:30.240 They're just hunkered down. 161 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:34.159 And so when we think about what mosses are, one 162 00:09:34.240 --> 00:09:37.360 of the ways to characterize them is by what they 163 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:40.320 don't have in comparison to all the plants that are 164 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:44.879 around us. They don't have roots, they don't have flowers, 165 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:50.000 they don't have the xylum and flow them that vascular 166 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:54.080 tissue that allows water to be moved within the plant. 167 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:57.600 They don't have any of that. And yet they're able 168 00:09:57.679 --> 00:10:03.519 to occupy virtually every habitat on the planet and endure 169 00:10:03.879 --> 00:10:07.759 all kinds of different kinds of environments. So they're super simple, 170 00:10:07.919 --> 00:10:10.519 but in their simplicity is kind of the key to 171 00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:11.240 their success. 172 00:10:12.279 --> 00:10:16.279 And so without flowering they reproduce with spores. 173 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:22.240 They do yep, just like in higher plants, there are 174 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:26.879 females and males, there are eggs and sperm tucked in 175 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:31.799 among the little tiny leaves of the moss. And you know, 176 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:37.159 like flowering plants, we know about insects moving pollen around 177 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:42.320 for fertilization. For mosses, it's they need water for that 178 00:10:42.440 --> 00:10:45.679 to happen. There has to be a continuous bridge of 179 00:10:45.799 --> 00:10:50.519 water between male and female for the sperm to swim along, 180 00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:54.399 sometimes just along the surface of a leaf to go 181 00:10:54.480 --> 00:10:55.720 find the female. 182 00:10:56.240 --> 00:10:59.960 So the water acts like the ultimate wingman, just pass 183 00:11:00.039 --> 00:11:03.759 sing a long sperm like a note and class like, hey, 184 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:06.039 h my friend wanted you to have this that boom 185 00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:07.480 you're pregnant with moss babies. 186 00:11:07.840 --> 00:11:12.159 And once the sperm does fertilize that egg, yeah, then 187 00:11:12.240 --> 00:11:16.399 it sends up this little stalk called a sporophyte that 188 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:21.519 will puff out clouds of spores that will go off 189 00:11:21.559 --> 00:11:26.240 and germinate. They don't make seeds, but they work from 190 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:27.799 the dispersal of spores. 191 00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:31.559 And so all of this is happening in miniature. When 192 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:34.679 we're taking a walk through the forest and we just 193 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:37.360 maybe see a green log and take it for granted. 194 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:39.679 All of this drama is happening. 195 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:44.320 All of this drama. Yes, yes, and you know, it's 196 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:47.799 like anything. The closer you look, the more drama you see. 197 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:52.080 And if you start to set aside those notions of 198 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:55.519 what mosses don't have and say, okay, I think of 199 00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:59.720 mosses as real rule breakers in the plant kingdom because 200 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:02.919 they live their lives in ways that are so different 201 00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:06.159 than all of the other plants. But yeah, when you 202 00:12:06.200 --> 00:12:13.320 start to pay attention, they are successful because of their differences, 203 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:14.159 I guess. 204 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:16.879 Would be the way to say that, Yeah, you know, 205 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:20.399 where can they grow? You mentioned that they can inhabit 206 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:23.159 all these places other plants can't. I'm trying to picture 207 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:26.039 like the outer reaches, like where are some of the 208 00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:28.240 most surprising places mosses have been found? 209 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:34.679 One of the mosses can grow pretty much anywhere. The 210 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:39.360 only place that they can't tolerate are salty environments. So 211 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:41.559 they're not in the ocean, they're not in the seashore, 212 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:47.039 but every place else they occur. And we tend to 213 00:12:47.080 --> 00:12:50.240 think about mosses as like you said, being on a 214 00:12:50.279 --> 00:12:53.559 wet log. They're in a shady forest, they're next to 215 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:57.039 a waterfall or a stream or a bog wet places, 216 00:12:57.360 --> 00:12:59.919 but one of the most surprising places to find them 217 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:04.879 is in the desert. They yeah, yeah, there are mosses 218 00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:10.320 that live off from morning dew in the desert. That's 219 00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:13.559 all the water they ever get. So to me, those 220 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:16.720 are some of the most surprising and one of the 221 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:20.440 beauties of When you ask where do mosses live, there's 222 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.720 the big answer of everywhere except for marine environments. But 223 00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:28.679 if we go to smaller to think about the world, 224 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:32.519 like a moss, mosses live on surfaces for the most part. 225 00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:35.200 You know, think about where you see them. They're they're 226 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:38.480 on logs, they're on trees, they're on rocks, they're on 227 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:45.840 pavement in city mosses mostly they don't live on the soil, 228 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:50.720 although some do because they're out competed by the bigger 229 00:13:50.919 --> 00:13:55.360 flowering vascular plants. So they tuck themselves in on all 230 00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:59.279 of these surfaces where it doesn't matter if you don't have. 231 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:06.279 Yeah, that's so smart, it's so clever of them. I 232 00:14:06.360 --> 00:14:09.000 know that we might take them for granted because our 233 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:13.200 eyesight just doesn't allow us to kind of identify or 234 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:14.279 notice their differences. 235 00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:16.519 But when you're looking through a loop. 236 00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:19.639 How are their edges different, and how are their forms 237 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:20.600 and structures different? 238 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:26.440 Well, they are at the scale of a loop, and 239 00:14:26.519 --> 00:14:28.919 even at the scale of just being on your knees 240 00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:33.720 and looking carefully. One moss is as different from the 241 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:37.240 next as a oak tree is from a birch tree 242 00:14:37.480 --> 00:14:42.879 from a pine tree. Their leaves might have toothed edges, 243 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:46.039 the leaf might be pleated, the leaf might be round, 244 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:48.720 it might be long, it might be like a hair 245 00:14:48.919 --> 00:14:54.799 like extension. There's tremendous diversity of form within the mosses, 246 00:14:55.480 --> 00:15:00.039 and that alone is a wonderful introduction to mosses, just 247 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:03.240 to see that they have tiny stems and they have 248 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:08.399 beautifully arrayed leaves. People think about them as a green film, 249 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:12.440 almost like there's nothing structural within it. It's just like 250 00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:16.639 a green textile or something. But no, they are tiny 251 00:15:17.320 --> 00:15:24.879 little plants with world leaves and leaves that might be flattened, spiraled. 252 00:15:25.000 --> 00:15:28.840 There's tremendous diversity of ways to be a moss. And 253 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:31.480 that's why I always say to people. People say, oh, 254 00:15:31.639 --> 00:15:34.720 there's moss on that rock. Really, there's no such thing 255 00:15:34.759 --> 00:15:39.320 as moss. There are mosses on any given rock there 256 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:43.759 might be ten different kinds of moss that until you 257 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:47.759 start to look, it just looks like green wallpaper. But 258 00:15:47.799 --> 00:15:50.519 then when you stop and look, you see that it's 259 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:51.159 a whole world. 260 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:57.399 And how are all of those different mosses categorized? How 261 00:15:58.320 --> 00:15:58.879 I know that. 262 00:15:59.320 --> 00:16:01.080 They don't have a lot of common names. 263 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:09.000 True. Unfortunately, mosses within sort of Western natural history, shall 264 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:13.279 we say, have been so overlooked that for the most 265 00:16:13.279 --> 00:16:17.320 part they don't even have common names. Although just and 266 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:20.799 there weren't even field guides to them until a few 267 00:16:20.879 --> 00:16:25.720 years ago, and there are now some nice photographic and 268 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:31.159 drawing based field guides and some attempt to put common 269 00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:36.879 names on them. I'll admit they're not very interesting common names. 270 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:41.919 Hooker's branched carpet moss. You know, it's, you know, not 271 00:16:42.039 --> 00:16:47.320 really very evocative. But maybe as people start looking more 272 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:52.279 they'll they'll have better, more colorful names. 273 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:55.799 So when you call a moss side note, you usually 274 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:59.320 call it by its buttoned up formal Latin name. But 275 00:16:59.559 --> 00:17:04.400 since doctor Kimmer is like the bryologist, I asked, is 276 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:07.559 she going to get to name any like Kimmer's shag 277 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:11.039 or heck in cool green fluof? She was like I'm good. 278 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:15.640 I'm really more of a moss ecologist, and so I'm 279 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:21.200 more interested in their relationships and their adaptive structures. And 280 00:17:21.359 --> 00:17:25.480 the names are convenient ways to discern one from the other, 281 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:31.079 and of course they're important in understanding evolutionary relationships. But 282 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:36.640 my fascination with them is is much more in what 283 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:40.880 they're doing rather than who they are in a in 284 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:42.400 a taxonomic sense. 285 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:46.839 That's a great way to put it. And what is 286 00:17:46.920 --> 00:17:51.400 their role ecologically? That's a huge question, I realized, But what. 287 00:17:51.480 --> 00:17:53.039 Are they what are they busy doing? 288 00:17:54.359 --> 00:17:57.799 Well, I'm so glad you asked, because they're They're tiny 289 00:17:57.839 --> 00:18:02.440 little plants and yet they have a huge role to play. 290 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:08.319 Where to start. One of the most important things to 291 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:12.000 think about in terms of the roles that mosses play 292 00:18:12.759 --> 00:18:16.279 is that their whole bodies, their whole way of being, 293 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:21.039 is designed at the scale of water drops. They are 294 00:18:21.160 --> 00:18:26.200 designed to attract and hold water, and so one of 295 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:30.079 their major roles is to do exactly that. Mosses are 296 00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:33.400 like sponges. They hold the water and then they release 297 00:18:33.480 --> 00:18:38.880 it slowly into the environment, so they create humidity. For example, 298 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:43.920 they also create a moist seed bed for other plants 299 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:46.839 to seeds to fall on, and then those seeds are 300 00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:51.279 essentially falling on to a damp sponge that's holding on 301 00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:59.160 to that moisture. Their moisture holding capacity influences nutrients too. 302 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:04.680 Think about that moss on a log that you were invoking, Well, 303 00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:08.880 if that moss is keeping the log damp by virtue 304 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:12.680 of being a sponge, that means that the decay fungi 305 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:16.279 are hard at work inside that log, breaking it down 306 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:22.079 recycling nutrients much more effectively than if that log didn't 307 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:25.839 have a moss blanket on it. So they keep the 308 00:19:25.960 --> 00:19:31.759 environment moist which allows many many other processes to unfold. 309 00:19:32.319 --> 00:19:36.799 That's certainly one of their major roles. You can, you'll 310 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:39.119 you'll have to turn me off, alick. 311 00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:42.839 As I know, I love this. My ears are open, Okay. 312 00:19:43.359 --> 00:19:47.000 One of the other things that that I think people 313 00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:51.640 are fascinated to know is that mosses have been termed 314 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:57.799 the coral reef of the forest because within a moss 315 00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:03.200 there are hundreds of little organisms living in that. When 316 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:06.599 we say well the mosses are a miniature forest, they're 317 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:10.039 not only a miniature forest of tiny little trees, but 318 00:20:10.240 --> 00:20:14.440 they have metaphorically birds living in that canopy. There are 319 00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:17.680 all kinds of invertebrates that travel up and down the 320 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:20.640 trunks of the mosses, if you will, from the top 321 00:20:20.680 --> 00:20:25.279 of the moss canopy down to the soil. There are herbivores, 322 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:28.880 there are grazers, there are predators. There's a whole food 323 00:20:28.920 --> 00:20:34.079 chain happening inside a little clump of moss. The most 324 00:20:34.119 --> 00:20:37.640 insane festival the world has ever seen. So they are 325 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:42.000 tremendous reservoirs of biodiversity, and that's why they get called 326 00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:43.960 the coral reefs of the forest. 327 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:49.799 And what eats moss? Who grazes on it? Yeah, it's 328 00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:55.319 a great question. For the most part, mosses are so 329 00:20:56.599 --> 00:21:01.960 well chemically defended that not much eat them. Within that 330 00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:06.680 little microcosm, there are some invertebrates which will eat them. 331 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:11.200 The invertebrates that have piercing mouth parts will sometimes stick 332 00:21:11.279 --> 00:21:15.960 that stylet into a moss cell and take out the contents. 333 00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:21.759 There are some larvae that will actually consume the leaf, 334 00:21:22.519 --> 00:21:27.920 but for the most part, mosses themselves are not consumed. 335 00:21:28.400 --> 00:21:32.319 So what do I mean by grazers. Well, within that 336 00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:36.599 little moss forest there are a little algae and bacteria 337 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:40.400 and fungi, that live on the moist moss leaf surface, 338 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:43.839 and there are insects that come along, invertebrates excuse me, 339 00:21:44.079 --> 00:21:48.599 that come along and actually scrape off the little epiphytic 340 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:52.200 algae and fungi, and that's what they're eating, not the moss. 341 00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:55.119 They're living the stuff. They're eating, this stuff that's. 342 00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:56.599 Growing on the moss. 343 00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:01.200 Okay, side note, epithetic means stuff that grow on other stuff. 344 00:22:01.559 --> 00:22:05.000 So any epiphyte is a plant that grows on another 345 00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:08.079 plant and just needs air and moisture. It's not parasite, 346 00:22:08.119 --> 00:22:10.519 it's just chillin. It just uses the other plant for support. 347 00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:17.200 Few epiphytes are mosses, air plants, orchids, and Spanish moss, 348 00:22:17.640 --> 00:22:20.839 which is not a moss. It's just named after its 349 00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:24.400 resemblance to a beard lichen. But it's also not a lichen, 350 00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:27.799 nor is it from Spain. So whenever you feel bad 351 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:31.960 about yourself, just remember people had three shots to name 352 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:36.079 Spanish moss and they screwed up three times. So you're 353 00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:40.519 doing fine, buddy. Oh and what kind of chemical defenses 354 00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:42.000 are the mosses producing. 355 00:22:43.240 --> 00:22:47.519 Well, I guess I should back up to answer that 356 00:22:47.599 --> 00:22:51.079 to say that that for the most part, vertebrates do 357 00:22:51.160 --> 00:22:56.039 not eat mosses. The only ones that do. Birds will 358 00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:59.640 sometimes eat the capsules the sporophytes, which are protein rich, 359 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:03.200 but they almost never eat the leafy part of the plant, 360 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:06.960 in large part because that leafy part of the plant 361 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:10.519 is so low in nutrients. It's mostly just sell wall 362 00:23:10.599 --> 00:23:14.359 and water. There's not a lot of sugars or proteins 363 00:23:14.400 --> 00:23:17.400 in those leaves, so it's kind of a why bother 364 00:23:19.480 --> 00:23:24.920 You shouldn't eat them because they're nothing but fiber, and 365 00:23:25.000 --> 00:23:28.079 they have a lot of anti microbials in them, and 366 00:23:28.119 --> 00:23:31.240 that's where the chemical defenses come in. I mean, if 367 00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:35.519 you think about it, it's a superb adaptation because mosses 368 00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:40.079 live on wet surfaces, right, They live on bark and 369 00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:44.440 soil and logs and rocks, and so therefore they would 370 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:48.559 be subject you would think, to attack by fun dry 371 00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:53.839 by bacteria. But they have over a long evolutionary history, 372 00:23:53.960 --> 00:24:00.160 they have anti microbials, primarily polyphenolic compounds and tannins that 373 00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:04.839 are in those leaves that make them unpalatable as well 374 00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:10.839 as not very rewarding for any organisms to eat them. 375 00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:13.480 So if you're like, yes, yes, a polyphenol, but you 376 00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:16.119 don't know what one is, don't worry, I gotcha. So, 377 00:24:16.279 --> 00:24:20.480 a polyphenol is a carbon containing chemical and it's characterized 378 00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:24.200 by usually many repeating phenyl groups. A phenol is a 379 00:24:24.680 --> 00:24:26.680 C six H five oh. 380 00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:27.200 So. 381 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:31.640 Polyphenols can do things like release or suppressed growth hormones. 382 00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:35.039 They can protect plants from UV rays, they can deter 383 00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:38.880 moss munchers. They can even signal to other plants like hey, 384 00:24:38.960 --> 00:24:41.839 what's up, let's ripen. They can also fight infections, and 385 00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:45.000 those last types are called phyto alexins in case you're 386 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:47.519 ever in need of that word. Now, a tannin is 387 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:49.880 a type of polyphenol. And if you've ever had like 388 00:24:49.880 --> 00:24:55.160 a dry tongue feeling from red wine or a green banana, 389 00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:58.880 or god forbid you eat an unripe per cinmon, which 390 00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:02.359 is so cringe inducing you just you might as well 391 00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:04.880 just try to get a tongue transplant, because it's brutal. 392 00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:07.839 It's game over. But yeah, then you've had tannins. Now, 393 00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:10.680 what if you ate stuff that other people don't want 394 00:25:10.680 --> 00:25:13.440 to eat? Would anyone want to eat you? And have 395 00:25:13.640 --> 00:25:18.680 those antimgroobigal properties ever been used by other animals in 396 00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:23.480 their own defense against microscopic critters. 397 00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:28.640 There's a hypothesis that exactly that, because the only place 398 00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:32.960 in the world that vertebrates do eat mosses is in 399 00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:39.920 the Arctic. Terriboo will eat mosses. Lemmings and voles will 400 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:44.319 eat mosses, and some of the studies have suggested that 401 00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:47.559