WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.120 --> 00:00:01.159 Judy was boring. 2 00:00:01.360 --> 00:00:01.679 Hello. 3 00:00:02.000 --> 00:00:04.759 Then Judy discovered chumpacasino dot com. 4 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:06.320 It's my little escape. 5 00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:08.039 Now Judy's the life of the party. 6 00:00:08.119 --> 00:00:10.240 Oh baby Mama is bringing home the bacon. 7 00:00:10.439 --> 00:00:14.519 WHOA, take it easy, Judy, Jump the CHUMPA life is 8 00:00:14.519 --> 00:00:17.559 for everybody. So go to chumpacasino dot com and play 9 00:00:17.559 --> 00:00:20.559 over one hundred casino style games. Join today and play 10 00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:23.480 for free for your chance to redeem some serious prices. 11 00:00:24.079 --> 00:00:27.960 Jump chumpacasino dot com. Noe's necessary, poly We're promitted by 12 00:00:28.120 --> 00:00:30.120 eighteen lust terms and condition to pla see what's every details. 13 00:00:30.440 --> 00:00:34.880 Step into the world of power, loyalty, and luck. 14 00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:37.560 I'm gonna make him an offer you can't refuse. 15 00:00:37.600 --> 00:00:41.679 Were family canoli's and spins mean everything? 16 00:00:41.799 --> 00:00:44.439 Now you want to get mixed up in the family business. 17 00:00:44.560 --> 00:00:49.759 Introducing the Godfather at chumpacasino dot com. Test your luck 18 00:00:49.799 --> 00:00:52.359 in the shadowy world of the Godfather Slough. 19 00:00:52.600 --> 00:00:55.399 Someday I will call upon you to do a service 20 00:00:55.439 --> 00:00:55.679 for me. 21 00:00:55.759 --> 00:00:59.320 Play the Godfather now at chumpacasino dot com. Welcome to 22 00:00:59.479 --> 00:01:01.000 the Family vdW group. 23 00:01:01.039 --> 00:01:02.840 No purchase necessary if we were previted by loss ye 24 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:06.920 terms and conditions eighteen plus with Lucky Land slots. You 25 00:01:07.000 --> 00:01:09.040 can get lucky just about anywhere. 26 00:01:09.280 --> 00:01:11.400 Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today. 27 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:13.480 Has anyone seen the bride and groom? 28 00:01:14.040 --> 00:01:16.920 Mari, Sorry we're here. We were getting lucky in the 29 00:01:16.959 --> 00:01:18.239 limo and we lost track of time. 30 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:21.799 No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up 31 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:23.040 quicker than a guess registered. 32 00:01:23.319 --> 00:01:25.439 But in that case, I pronounce you lucky. 33 00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:29.439 Play for free at lucky landslots dot com. Daily bonuses 34 00:01:29.480 --> 00:01:31.319 are waiting. No purchase necessary board. 35 00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:33.959 We're prohibited by long eighteen plus terms and conditions applying. 36 00:01:34.040 --> 00:01:35.359 See website for details. 37 00:01:35.959 --> 00:01:39.200 Lucky Land Casino asking people what's the weirdest place you've 38 00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:39.920 gotten lucky? 39 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:43.000 Lucky in line of the Delhi, I guess ah in 40 00:01:43.079 --> 00:01:45.000 my dentist's office more than once. 41 00:01:45.120 --> 00:01:47.799 Actually do I have to say? Yes? You do? In 42 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:50.640 the car before my kid's PTA meeting? Really? 43 00:01:50.840 --> 00:01:53.760 Yes, excuse me, what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 44 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:56.519 I never win? And tell well, there you have it. 45 00:01:56.519 --> 00:01:59.640 You could get lucky anywhere playing at Lucky landslots dot com. 46 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:00.959 Play are free right now? 47 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:05.799 Are you feeling lucky? Eighteen plusurs conditions plus everty game. 48 00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:18.879 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 49 00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:22.000 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 50 00:02:22.080 --> 00:02:28.159 written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker DTK. 51 00:02:29.039 --> 00:02:32.879 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 52 00:02:33.000 --> 00:02:37.080 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 53 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:41.319 your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 54 00:02:51.000 --> 00:02:55.520 Good Evening. In March two thousand and nine, pretty vivacious 55 00:02:55.639 --> 00:02:58.599 Ronda Casto plunged to her death from a three hundred 56 00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:01.840 foot cliff in the Oregon war Woods. The only witness, 57 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:05.080 Stephen Nichols, the father of her nine month old baby Annie, 58 00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:09.599 told police investigator she slipped and fell. Yet Nicholls's story 59 00:03:09.639 --> 00:03:12.240 didn't quite mesh with the facts, and some of his 60 00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:16.000 other actions raised suspicions as well, including just days after 61 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:18.639 her death, trying to collect on a million dollar life 62 00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:21.960 insurance policy had taken out on his unemployed twenty three 63 00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:25.639 year old girlfriend four months earlier. What had begun with 64 00:03:25.680 --> 00:03:28.879 a nine one one called report and accident quickly turned 65 00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:33.479 into a homicide investigation. However, in part due to lackluster 66 00:03:33.560 --> 00:03:37.479 police work, the case grew cold. Then, in twenty eleven, 67 00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:41.599 Darty Robinson, a tenacious investigator with a Portland law firm 68 00:03:42.120 --> 00:03:46.439 began digging into the circumstances surrounding Ronda's death. The law 69 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:50.240 firm represented Ronda's mother, who believed that Nicholls, thirty four 70 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:53.000 at the time, had murdered her daughter. She wanted to 71 00:03:53.039 --> 00:03:55.800 prevent him from gaining custody of Annie and the life 72 00:03:55.840 --> 00:04:00.879 insurance money. What Robinson discovered, including an tempt by Nichols 73 00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:03.280 to throw his first wife off a high rise balcony 74 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:07.039 in China, as well as sexual abuse allegations with Ronda's 75 00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:11.120 underage sister, convinced her that Ronda's death was no accident. 76 00:04:12.439 --> 00:04:15.400 So began her six year battle to save Annie from 77 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:20.519 her own father and fine justice for Ronda. In the meantime, 78 00:04:20.680 --> 00:04:24.360 a parallel investigation into the case by co author Steve Jackson, 79 00:04:24.759 --> 00:04:27.600 an award winning journalist and New York Times bestselling author 80 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:32.639 and private investigator Tom McCallum, posed the same questions, what 81 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:36.639 really happened to Ronda Casto on that cold, rainy afternoon 82 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:39.600 on the Eagle Creek trail and what would become of 83 00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:42.680 her child. The book that we're featuring this evening is 84 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:47.279 Saving Annie Book two. The Investigator with my special guest 85 00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:53.040 Steve Jackson, journalist, author, and Wild Blue Press publisher Steve Jackson. 86 00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:55.360 Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much 87 00:04:55.360 --> 00:05:00.319 for agreeing to this interview. Steve Jackson, Thanks Ann, always 88 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:03.480 good to be here. Thank you. It's always a pleasure 89 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:05.839 to have you and some of the authors from Wild 90 00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:10.879 Blue Press as well. Let's talk about Saving Annie. This 91 00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:14.120 is the book two. Previously not I think a few 92 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:16.480 weeks ago, four or five, six weeks ago, we had 93 00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:21.240 you talk about Saving Annie book one. As you do 94 00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:25.160 in the prologue, you give a synopsis for those people 95 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:28.639 that didn't get a chance to hear that. Let's talk 96 00:05:28.639 --> 00:05:32.079 about March two thousand and nine. Ronda Casto, twenty three 97 00:05:32.160 --> 00:05:35.480 year old, as we mentioned in the introduction, gives us 98 00:05:35.959 --> 00:05:41.040 a little bit of a synopsis of what happened, as 99 00:05:41.079 --> 00:05:43.800 you do in the prologue to Saving Annie. Book two. 100 00:05:45.519 --> 00:05:48.800 Well, yes, as you know the way the books are 101 00:05:48.839 --> 00:05:53.959 set up there, it's one story told in four different books, 102 00:05:53.959 --> 00:05:57.839 because that's the way the story breaks up. And we 103 00:05:58.600 --> 00:06:03.279 thought we'd experiment a little bit with serialization of books, 104 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:06.360 and so we do it with a small sum at 105 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:09.560 the beginning of each which doesn't give you much of 106 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:13.319 the details. But enough to remind people who have read 107 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:17.040 the previous book of where we're at the book. But anyway, 108 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:21.519 on March two thousand and nine March sixteenth, two thousand 109 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:28.920 and nine, Ronde Casto and her boyfriend, who also was 110 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:32.600 the father of her child, her instant, went for a 111 00:06:32.680 --> 00:06:37.680 hike up in the an area off the Columbia River 112 00:06:37.759 --> 00:06:43.959 Gorge in Oregon, and at some point in that hike, 113 00:06:44.040 --> 00:06:50.480 around three o'clock in the afternoon, Ronda plunge from an 114 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:55.439 almost three hundred foot cliff, and a few hours later, 115 00:06:55.680 --> 00:07:01.040 her boyfriend, Stephen Nichols, called nine one, and that is 116 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:03.120 how the story begins. 117 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:09.439 Now with this Stephen Nichols. The of course, this book 118 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:14.600 is called Saving Annie. So daughter's nine years old. What 119 00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:20.600 happens with Annie after her mother is missing and dead? 120 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:29.319 Just just a small correction. It's Annie is at this 121 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:33.480 time nine months old, so she's stilling still and no, 122 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:39.519 it's quite all right. It's one of those mistakes. But well, 123 00:07:39.560 --> 00:07:43.519 what happens with Annie is that at first she's left 124 00:07:43.600 --> 00:07:52.079 with her her maternal grandmother, who is also accusing Nichols 125 00:07:52.319 --> 00:07:59.800 of having murdered Ronda in part for a million dollars 126 00:08:00.040 --> 00:08:03.160 learn policy that he took out on Rohnda and in 127 00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:07.519 part because he's had a sexual affair going with Rona's 128 00:08:07.560 --> 00:08:16.240 younger sister since she was fifteen years old, obviously a 129 00:08:16.720 --> 00:08:22.240 criminal act. At a point in here around May June 130 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:30.000 of two thousand and nine, Nichols demanded Annie and from 131 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:34.159 the grandmother, and she believed that she had to hand 132 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:37.679 the child over to him. He took the child and 133 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:43.240 moved in with his father and stepmother up in Bend, Oregon, 134 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:47.360 which is central organ As opposed to where they've been 135 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:48.279 living in Portland. 136 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:55.279 Now, Nichols has gotten a lawyer, so he's refused to 137 00:08:55.360 --> 00:08:58.440 talk to the lead investigator in this in Hood River 138 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:04.720 Sheriff's office, and that's Detective Sergeant Jerry Tiffany. And when 139 00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:06.919 we mentioned about the insurance claim, and so they all 140 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:10.759 know about him trying to get that insurance claim and 141 00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:14.519 that we mentioned also that it's highly suspicious when he 142 00:09:14.799 --> 00:09:20.039 just obtained the purchase the insurance policy and then she 143 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:24.320 ends up dead. Now with the police and their suspicions, 144 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:27.879 but yet he gets a lawyer and refuses to talk 145 00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:30.759 to police, makes us move to Bend, Oregon, moves in 146 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:34.720 with his family. What is the living arrangement there in Bend, Oregon. 147 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:39.519 And then when do we introg when do you introduce 148 00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:43.519 Darty Robinson and how she comes into the picture here 149 00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:45.039 in this story. 150 00:09:47.039 --> 00:09:53.759 Well, Stephen and Annie, as we said, move in with 151 00:09:53.960 --> 00:09:58.600 his father and stepmother. They live a few miles out 152 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:00.639 of Bend, Oregon in a communit to be known as 153 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:06.879 Sun Rivers, sort of a wooded semi rural area and 154 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:13.320 you know, in the forest, I guess, uh, And and 155 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:17.799 so that's that's where they're living at this time. Uh. 156 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:25.000 Julia Simmons, the child's maternal grandmother one, is trying to 157 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:31.960 prevent Nichols from collecting the money the insurance policy, and 158 00:10:32.360 --> 00:10:38.120 she's also wants custody as a child, so that uh, 159 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:43.440 and some of these imaginations are going on during this time. 160 00:10:44.399 --> 00:10:47.720 Miss Simmons actually thinks that if anybody is going to 161 00:10:47.759 --> 00:10:52.519 get the insurance money, she should and get the child, 162 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:55.720 so that the money is being used on the child 163 00:10:55.799 --> 00:11:02.480 and it's it's in her possession. So as she's doing this, 164 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:10.960 she goes to a victim's assistance program in the county 165 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:17.120 where she's living, and they refer her to Gardy Robinson, 166 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:22.120 who is a paralegal working for an attorney in Portland 167 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:27.320 named Robert Barton, as former prosecutor in Orange County. And 168 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:31.399 the whole purpose is Darty has signed up through her 169 00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:35.360 church to do some free legal work for people. And 170 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:40.759 so she's told about this story about this woman who 171 00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:46.360 is trying to gain custody of her granddaughter and also 172 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:52.320 prevents the child's father, who she believes killed her daughter, 173 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:57.440 from getting the money. So disinterest Darty, who has her 174 00:11:57.519 --> 00:12:05.559 own history of children being specially abused, and so it 175 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:10.200 kind of strikes a heartstring with her when she hears 176 00:12:10.240 --> 00:12:15.000 about this, and so she invites Ms. Simmons to their 177 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:16.919 law office to hear her story. 178 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:23.159 Now, this Darty, you talk about that she's had many 179 00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:25.600 things in her life so that she can be empathetic 180 00:12:25.679 --> 00:12:29.159 towards this and also, as you write in this book, 181 00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:32.480 take this on like a personal crusade to be able 182 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:35.519 to save this child. Tell us a little bit about 183 00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:40.799 her background before this fortuitous meeting at this through the church. 184 00:12:40.960 --> 00:12:45.480 And then when she goes to her employer basically Bob 185 00:12:45.559 --> 00:12:49.759 Barton and pleads her case to be able to take 186 00:12:49.840 --> 00:12:52.759 this and do what's necessary. Tell us a little bit 187 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:56.960 about Darty Robinson and her background that shaped her about this. 188 00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:02.159 Yeah, dok Darty is very interesting person just adjusting her 189 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:06.840 background and and has based a lot. She was raised 190 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:10.919 by missionary parents who actually took her to Africa when 191 00:13:11.000 --> 00:13:13.480 she was young and they lived there for a number 192 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:21.000 of years and then before returning. And she's an accomplished pianist. 193 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:27.039 But but the dark side of this is she was 194 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:31.360 also molested twice when she's by two different people, I 195 00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:34.639 should say more than twice, but two different people during 196 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:39.320 her childhood and when she was a teenager. And uh so, 197 00:13:39.480 --> 00:13:43.080 of course that has brings its own trauma and uh 198 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:47.639 into it. But also even more tragically is that Darty 199 00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:51.279 was married and had a had a family with a 200 00:13:51.799 --> 00:13:56.879 number of children, and one day one of her daughters 201 00:13:57.000 --> 00:14:00.679 came to her and said that her husband, his husband, 202 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:06.600 the child's father, had molested her. And this, of course 203 00:14:06.960 --> 00:14:14.840 just threw everything into chaos. Dardy uh went to the 204 00:14:14.879 --> 00:14:21.399 police with with the allegations. Her husband was arrested. He 205 00:14:21.559 --> 00:14:24.559 was a very well known man and uh they lived 206 00:14:24.600 --> 00:14:28.960 in Washington, the state of Washington this time, and so 207 00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:32.919 he uh, you know, he denied it, of course, and 208 00:14:34.039 --> 00:14:36.879 h Darty went to Hell with a lot of church 209 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:41.080 people and other people, uh accusing her of making all 210 00:14:41.200 --> 00:14:44.120 this up and and that sort of thing, and uh 211 00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:51.039 until well into all of this, her husband, former husband 212 00:14:51.120 --> 00:14:57.000 at this point uh finally confessed, which of course vindicated Darty. 213 00:14:58.519 --> 00:15:02.360 But you know, she now had a shattered family with 214 00:15:03.879 --> 00:15:07.120 daughter who had been sexually molested as she had been. 215 00:15:08.159 --> 00:15:14.759 So it's sort of one of those things where you know, 216 00:15:14.919 --> 00:15:20.519 she's she's very empathetic to the plight of children. You know, 217 00:15:21.000 --> 00:15:27.080 Darty ish would put any child ahead of herself, and 218 00:15:27.240 --> 00:15:29.679 so when she hears about this story about Ron the 219 00:15:29.799 --> 00:15:35.480 casto's child living with the man who possibly killed her 220 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:40.200 mother and is having an affair with the mother's younger sister, 221 00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:46.000 it definitely motivates her to get involved. 222 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:50.120 It's interesting and I think it's important to mention too 223 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:53.480 that because of this, again we talked about this tenacious 224 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:56.360 character and she has to have that to pursue this campaign, 225 00:15:57.080 --> 00:15:59.279 is that she wanted to give her husband. 226 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:00.679 Years. 227 00:16:00.799 --> 00:16:05.799 At one point she went to the district attorney and 228 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:10.000 she fought and did an investigation and brought those investigative 229 00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:13.120 skills to her new career as a paralegal. As a 230 00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:15.639 result of the things that she was able to accomplish 231 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:19.919 to protect her children, and he got a maximum he 232 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:23.120 got five years. Through that, she convinced the judge that 233 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:25.919 he should get that kind of sentence. And then that 234 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:29.759 brought those, as you write, those investigative skills to her 235 00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:35.240 new career at this legal firm. How does she convince 236 00:16:36.519 --> 00:16:40.240 Bob Barton that he should get involved? And once well, 237 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:44.039 once the isn't involved, what do they do in terms 238 00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:48.759 of trying to get this before a district attorney and 239 00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:52.039 have these charges followed up on that she has done 240 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:57.600 this work for and investigated and about Stephen Nichols. 241 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:04.079 I'm sorry, Dan, I lost track of you there. What 242 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:05.200 what is the question? 243 00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:10.359 Well, the once she goes to Barton at the law firm, 244 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:13.119 what is the next move with in terms of relationship 245 00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:13.799 with police? 246 00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:18.400 Okay, okay, that's that's that's what I had had not 247 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:22.160 underst stood. Well, they begin a but what they basically 248 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:25.960 are doing here is they are the case that they 249 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:31.400 take on Miss Simmons. The grandmother has a has already 250 00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:34.519 filed a custody case trying to get the child, so 251 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:37.799 she has a lawyer for that. So what she's what 252 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:42.240 Darty and Bob Barton initially start out to do is 253 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:49.279 to prevent Stephen Nichols from getting the money from the 254 00:17:49.400 --> 00:17:52.279 insurance case. And and what they what Darty wants to 255 00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:55.000 do is to make sure that this money is put 256 00:17:55.079 --> 00:18:00.440 aside for the child into the future, obviously thinking that 257 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.319 the child may have some issues to deal with, but 258 00:18:03.480 --> 00:18:07.559 also just you know, the whole idea of this man 259 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:13.160 who that she quickly learns the police believe killed uh 260 00:18:13.759 --> 00:18:18.079 the mother, and and the insurance company has refused to 261 00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:23.480 to pay off on this policy at this time due to, uh, 262 00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:29.119 you know, concerns that Stephen Nichols may have murdered Ron 263 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:33.920 de Casto. So that's how they initially get started. It's 264 00:18:33.960 --> 00:18:38.480 that they don't start to to uh try to prove 265 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:43.839 that Nichols did anything to Ron, that they that basically 266 00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:46.400 they start with the idea of let's stop him from 267 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:49.920 getting the money right now and uh and then if 268 00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:53.799 we have to, will file a wrongful death, which is 269 00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:59.759 a civil version of a of a murder charge. And 270 00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:02.680 and it's kind of as he's starting to do this 271 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:06.240 that she's learning that, you know, there's a lot more 272 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:09.960 to this this whole case. There's the case of the 273 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:17.079 younger sister who was being sexually exploited by Stephen Nichols 274 00:19:17.160 --> 00:19:21.279 when she was only fifteen years old. Nichols goes up 275 00:19:21.319 --> 00:19:24.319 to when he moves to Bend and is living up 276 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:30.400 there with Annie, gets in trouble for sexually molesting a 277 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:33.960 thirteen year old girl in a swimming pool, so he 278 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:38.400 basically can't keep his hands to himself or anything else. 279 00:19:39.799 --> 00:19:42.920 During you know, this is eight months after Ronda's death, 280 00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:46.519 He's already getting in trouble for this sort of thing, 281 00:19:47.039 --> 00:19:51.640 and so Darty starts to get more and more alarmed. 282 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:57.640 Not only is Nichols possibly the murder of murderer of 283 00:19:58.519 --> 00:20:05.279 Annie's mom Ronda, but he sexually molested underage girls, so 284 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:07.960 of course that starts to raise concerns. 285 00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:12.240 At the same time, you say that Robinson is trying 286 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:16.720 to get information from the police from Jerry Tiffany and 287 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:19.640 he's not being cooperative. Yet she is providing information she 288 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:21.880 believes in asking him and reaching out to him to 289 00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:24.119 see if she can help in any way. What is 290 00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:27.920 his response to her reaching out to try to help. 291 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:35.480 Well, basically, during this period of time, she was I 292 00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:40.200 get to put up politely the police investigation a year 293 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:46.799 after Ronda's death has pretty much stalled. There are a 294 00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:51.599 number of witnesses who were never even interviewed, including Nichol's 295 00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:56.519 former wife and a former girlfriend who had filed domestic 296 00:20:56.599 --> 00:21:04.240 violence charges against him. He had lawsuits with his siblings 297 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:09.880 were suing him for stealing money from a trust, which 298 00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:14.039 is yet another motive for him needing a lot of 299 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:17.440 money fast as he was being sued for about a 300 00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:20.519 half a million dollars by his siblings, and all of 301 00:21:20.599 --> 00:21:26.039 this stuff had not been run down by the police 302 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:29.240 investigation which was supposed to be headed by Sergeant Tiffany. 303 00:21:30.680 --> 00:21:36.319 So Tiffany, as she started to feed him information hoping 304 00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:41.880 that he would reciprocate and give her information, basically would 305 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:45.279 take her information, say thank you, but then say he 306 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:48.759 couldn't tell her anything because it was an ongoing investigation. 307 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:54.000 Curious as to what ongoing investigation since he had not 308 00:21:56.480 --> 00:22:01.680 interviewed some witnesses or interview them late or it wasn't 309 00:22:01.720 --> 00:22:06.839 doing anything much with these as far as a Darty 310 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:09.039 could tell or any sort. 311 00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:16.759 Of paperwork, So how do they they It's very interesting 312 00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:20.680 with the civil wrongful death civil suit and in the 313 00:22:20.799 --> 00:22:24.680 aim of that in terms of the purpose behind this, 314 00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:28.440 and you explain what the difference is between a civil 315 00:22:28.480 --> 00:22:31.400 suit and you, of course the best example is O. J. Simpson, 316 00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:34.400 and then you explain the difference in terms of preponderance 317 00:22:34.559 --> 00:22:38.039 of evidence. But tell us about why they thought of this, 318 00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:42.119 how it came to them, and explain the difference in 319 00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:46.240 the civil and criminal cases and why they thought that 320 00:22:46.319 --> 00:22:48.680 this would be an advantage for them. 321 00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:52.759 Well, there there's a couple of things going on here 322 00:22:53.480 --> 00:22:58.079 with they by all a wrongful death, which, as you noted, 323 00:22:58.279 --> 00:23:00.799 is very similar to what happened in the O. J. 324 00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:06.720 Simpson case where OJ was uh tried in the criminal 325 00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:10.880 court and found not guilty. So the families of Ron 326 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:15.640 Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson uh suit in civil court 327 00:23:16.400 --> 00:23:21.039 with what's called a wrongful death suit. As we all know, 328 00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:24.720 in a criminal case, the evidence the state has to 329 00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:28.359 prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt, which is fairly 330 00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:31.680 high bar. It's not beyond any and all doubt, as 331 00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:34.599 some people will say, but it's beyond a reasonable doubt, 332 00:23:35.240 --> 00:23:39.400 which Andy, and you have to have a unanimous jury 333 00:23:39.799 --> 00:23:43.920 verdict to convict somebody in a criminal case with a 334 00:23:44.119 --> 00:23:50.880 with a murder condition with a wrongful death you are. Basically, 335 00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:57.039 it's the preponderance of an evidence would lead uh, you know, 336 00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:02.240 the jury to believe that he was indeed guilt, guilty 337 00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:09.200 of having caused the death of the victim in this case, 338 00:24:09.319 --> 00:24:15.200 Rondo Castro and Uh. And it doesn't require a unanimous jury. 339 00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:20.720 It's it's a majority, a simple majority. And of course 340 00:24:21.319 --> 00:24:26.839 in the criminal case there's the possibility of imprisonment as 341 00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:29.680 well as fines and that sort of thing. With the 342 00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:34.640 civil case, it's it's it's a matter of the money 343 00:24:35.319 --> 00:24:40.839 and getting getting a settlement from the the defendant. In 344 00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:43.839 this case with Ronda, there's a couple of things that 345 00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:50.200 are trying to accomplish. One is that if Nichols, the 346 00:24:50.359 --> 00:24:54.799 insurance company turns around, turned around and and gave Nichols 347 00:24:54.920 --> 00:24:59.559 the money, because he was doing the insurance company for 348 00:24:59.720 --> 00:25:02.200 this money, if they turned around and gave it to him, 349 00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:07.359 they wanted to make sure they could sue Nichols and 350 00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:12.759 hopefully get the money that way for Annie through the 351 00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:18.920 wrongful death losses. And the other part is to is 352 00:25:19.079 --> 00:25:23.599 that if Nichols was sued, they'd be able to depose him, 353 00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:26.960 which in a criminal trial, we all know that the 354 00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:30.640 defendant isn't required to take the stand in his own defense. 355 00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:35.279 Most don't take the stand because then if you subject 356 00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:39.279 yourself to cross examination, questions and all that sort of thing. 357 00:25:40.400 --> 00:25:43.519 But in the civil suit, Nichols would have had to 358 00:25:43.640 --> 00:25:48.039 have been deposed under oak, which means they could have 359 00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:54.200 asked me questions about the circumstances of Ronda's death, and 360 00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:58.720 in the same sort of cross examination that would have 361 00:25:58.839 --> 00:26:04.480 happened in aiminal trial, except for with the deposition, and 362 00:26:04.559 --> 00:26:06.640 then of course that he could have been brought to 363 00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:10.559 the span during the civil during the trial part of 364 00:26:10.599 --> 00:26:14.400 the civil suit, and the and question on the stand 365 00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:19.519 with the attorney of course having the record of what 366 00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:22.720 he said in the deposition. So in a way it's 367 00:26:23.079 --> 00:26:26.079 it's a way of forcing him to answer questions about 368 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:29.720 Ronda's death, which he had refused to do after the 369 00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:34.799 initial couple of interviews with police that night of and 370 00:26:34.920 --> 00:26:37.720 so this is sort of a way to get to 371 00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:42.960 him without it being a criminal case. And of course, 372 00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:45.880 at this time, the difference between the O. J. Simpson 373 00:26:46.039 --> 00:26:49.519 case and this case was there was no criminal case 374 00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:54.880 yet against Nickels, no murder murder case. So whatever he 375 00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:57.960 had said in a deposition during the civil case, or 376 00:26:58.039 --> 00:27:01.200 if he took the stand during the civil case, could 377 00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:04.599 have also been used in a future criminal case. And 378 00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:07.440 that's the importance of what they were trying to do. 379 00:27:07.559 --> 00:27:11.440 There absolutely, very very unique and I thought that was 380 00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:15.240 a very fascinating part of this case, one of them. Anyway, 381 00:27:16.319 --> 00:27:20.079 let's talk about two February third, twenty and eleven and 382 00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:25.079 Darty Robinson and Bob Barton. Why are they lived as 383 00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:29.400 you write? What's going on in the Shoots County that's 384 00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:30.359 made them angry? 385 00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:37.359 Well, this goes back to Stephen Nichols. He's arrested and 386 00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:43.079 indicted for five counts felony counts of sexual abuse of 387 00:27:43.160 --> 00:27:48.319 a minor from this incident that took place eight months 388 00:27:48.359 --> 00:27:51.079 after Ronda's death up in ben in the swimming pool. 389 00:27:52.200 --> 00:27:56.119 So you know, this is important to them for a 390 00:27:56.200 --> 00:28:01.200 number of reasons. One is they believe he's a sexual 391 00:28:01.960 --> 00:28:06.440 abuse abuse her. Uh, he's the guilty of sexual assault. 392 00:28:08.119 --> 00:28:12.039 And also that you know now it could give them 393 00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:19.880 some leverage to to get farther into the Ronda Casto case. 394 00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:23.920 So anyway, they they've gone up and they've talked to 395 00:28:24.039 --> 00:28:30.640 the prosecutor in the Shoots County District Attorney's office during 396 00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:35.079 after Nichols was indicted, and and for a good half year, 397 00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:39.400 or actually more than half. You're almost a year and 398 00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:44.599 a half of all this. You know, the Nichols get 399 00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:49.640 some good defense attorneys. They stall, they they get to 400 00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:53.240 ask for other times. They they investigate. They of course 401 00:28:53.319 --> 00:28:55.480