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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker DTK.
Speaker 2: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 2: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 2: your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. In March two thousand and nine, pretty vivacious
Speaker 6: Ronda Casto plunged to her death from a three hundred
Speaker 6: foot cliff in the Oregon war Woods. The only witness,
Speaker 6: Stephen Nichols, the father of her nine month old baby Annie,
Speaker 6: told police investigator she slipped and fell. Yet Nicholls's story
Speaker 6: didn't quite mesh with the facts, and some of his
Speaker 6: other actions raised suspicions as well, including just days after
Speaker 6: her death, trying to collect on a million dollar life
Speaker 6: insurance policy had taken out on his unemployed twenty three
Speaker 6: year old girlfriend four months earlier. What had begun with
Speaker 6: a nine one one called report and accident quickly turned
Speaker 6: into a homicide investigation. However, in part due to lackluster
Speaker 6: police work, the case grew cold. Then, in twenty eleven,
Speaker 6: Darty Robinson, a tenacious investigator with a Portland law firm
Speaker 6: began digging into the circumstances surrounding Ronda's death. The law
Speaker 6: firm represented Ronda's mother, who believed that Nicholls, thirty four
Speaker 6: at the time, had murdered her daughter. She wanted to
Speaker 6: prevent him from gaining custody of Annie and the life
Speaker 6: insurance money. What Robinson discovered, including an tempt by Nichols
Speaker 6: to throw his first wife off a high rise balcony
Speaker 6: in China, as well as sexual abuse allegations with Ronda's
Speaker 6: underage sister, convinced her that Ronda's death was no accident.
Speaker 6: So began her six year battle to save Annie from
Speaker 6: her own father and fine justice for Ronda. In the meantime,
Speaker 6: a parallel investigation into the case by co author Steve Jackson,
Speaker 6: an award winning journalist and New York Times bestselling author
Speaker 6: and private investigator Tom McCallum, posed the same questions, what
Speaker 6: really happened to Ronda Casto on that cold, rainy afternoon
Speaker 6: on the Eagle Creek trail and what would become of
Speaker 6: her child. The book that we're featuring this evening is
Speaker 6: Saving Annie Book two. The Investigator with my special guest
Speaker 6: Steve Jackson, journalist, author, and Wild Blue Press publisher Steve Jackson.
Speaker 6: Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much
Speaker 6: for agreeing to this interview. Steve Jackson, Thanks Ann, always
Speaker 6: good to be here. Thank you. It's always a pleasure
Speaker 6: to have you and some of the authors from Wild
Speaker 6: Blue Press as well. Let's talk about Saving Annie. This
Speaker 6: is the book two. Previously not I think a few
Speaker 6: weeks ago, four or five, six weeks ago, we had
Speaker 6: you talk about Saving Annie book one. As you do
Speaker 6: in the prologue, you give a synopsis for those people
Speaker 6: that didn't get a chance to hear that. Let's talk
Speaker 6: about March two thousand and nine. Ronda Casto, twenty three
Speaker 6: year old, as we mentioned in the introduction, gives us
Speaker 6: a little bit of a synopsis of what happened, as
Speaker 6: you do in the prologue to Saving Annie. Book two.
Speaker 4: Well, yes, as you know the way the books are
Speaker 4: set up there, it's one story told in four different books,
Speaker 4: because that's the way the story breaks up. And we
Speaker 4: thought we'd experiment a little bit with serialization of books,
Speaker 4: and so we do it with a small sum at
Speaker 4: the beginning of each which doesn't give you much of
Speaker 4: the details. But enough to remind people who have read
Speaker 4: the previous book of where we're at the book. But anyway,
Speaker 4: on March two thousand and nine March sixteenth, two thousand
Speaker 4: and nine, Ronde Casto and her boyfriend, who also was
Speaker 4: the father of her child, her instant, went for a
Speaker 4: hike up in the an area off the Columbia River
Speaker 4: Gorge in Oregon, and at some point in that hike,
Speaker 4: around three o'clock in the afternoon, Ronda plunge from an
Speaker 4: almost three hundred foot cliff, and a few hours later,
Speaker 4: her boyfriend, Stephen Nichols, called nine one, and that is
Speaker 4: how the story begins.
Speaker 6: Now with this Stephen Nichols. The of course, this book
Speaker 6: is called Saving Annie. So daughter's nine years old. What
Speaker 6: happens with Annie after her mother is missing and dead?
Speaker 4: Just just a small correction. It's Annie is at this
Speaker 4: time nine months old, so she's stilling still and no,
Speaker 4: it's quite all right. It's one of those mistakes. But well,
Speaker 4: what happens with Annie is that at first she's left
Speaker 4: with her her maternal grandmother, who is also accusing Nichols
Speaker 4: of having murdered Ronda in part for a million dollars
Speaker 4: learn policy that he took out on Rohnda and in
Speaker 4: part because he's had a sexual affair going with Rona's
Speaker 4: younger sister since she was fifteen years old, obviously a
Speaker 4: criminal act. At a point in here around May June
Speaker 4: of two thousand and nine, Nichols demanded Annie and from
Speaker 4: the grandmother, and she believed that she had to hand
Speaker 4: the child over to him. He took the child and
Speaker 4: moved in with his father and stepmother up in Bend, Oregon,
Speaker 4: which is central organ As opposed to where they've been
Speaker 4: living in Portland.
Speaker 6: Now, Nichols has gotten a lawyer, so he's refused to
Speaker 6: talk to the lead investigator in this in Hood River
Speaker 6: Sheriff's office, and that's Detective Sergeant Jerry Tiffany. And when
Speaker 6: we mentioned about the insurance claim, and so they all
Speaker 6: know about him trying to get that insurance claim and
Speaker 6: that we mentioned also that it's highly suspicious when he
Speaker 6: just obtained the purchase the insurance policy and then she
Speaker 6: ends up dead. Now with the police and their suspicions,
Speaker 6: but yet he gets a lawyer and refuses to talk
Speaker 6: to police, makes us move to Bend, Oregon, moves in
Speaker 6: with his family. What is the living arrangement there in Bend, Oregon.
Speaker 6: And then when do we introg when do you introduce
Speaker 6: Darty Robinson and how she comes into the picture here
Speaker 6: in this story.
Speaker 4: Well, Stephen and Annie, as we said, move in with
Speaker 4: his father and stepmother. They live a few miles out
Speaker 4: of Bend, Oregon in a communit to be known as
Speaker 4: Sun Rivers, sort of a wooded semi rural area and
Speaker 4: you know, in the forest, I guess, uh, And and
Speaker 4: so that's that's where they're living at this time. Uh.
Speaker 4: Julia Simmons, the child's maternal grandmother one, is trying to
Speaker 4: prevent Nichols from collecting the money the insurance policy, and
Speaker 4: she's also wants custody as a child, so that uh,
Speaker 4: and some of these imaginations are going on during this time.
Speaker 4: Miss Simmons actually thinks that if anybody is going to
Speaker 4: get the insurance money, she should and get the child,
Speaker 4: so that the money is being used on the child
Speaker 4: and it's it's in her possession. So as she's doing this,
Speaker 4: she goes to a victim's assistance program in the county
Speaker 4: where she's living, and they refer her to Gardy Robinson,
Speaker 4: who is a paralegal working for an attorney in Portland
Speaker 4: named Robert Barton, as former prosecutor in Orange County. And
Speaker 4: the whole purpose is Darty has signed up through her
Speaker 4: church to do some free legal work for people. And
Speaker 4: so she's told about this story about this woman who
Speaker 4: is trying to gain custody of her granddaughter and also
Speaker 4: prevents the child's father, who she believes killed her daughter,
Speaker 4: from getting the money. So disinterest Darty, who has her
Speaker 4: own history of children being specially abused, and so it
Speaker 4: kind of strikes a heartstring with her when she hears
Speaker 4: about this, and so she invites Ms. Simmons to their
Speaker 4: law office to hear her story.
Speaker 6: Now, this Darty, you talk about that she's had many
Speaker 6: things in her life so that she can be empathetic
Speaker 6: towards this and also, as you write in this book,
Speaker 6: take this on like a personal crusade to be able
Speaker 6: to save this child. Tell us a little bit about
Speaker 6: her background before this fortuitous meeting at this through the church.
Speaker 6: And then when she goes to her employer basically Bob
Speaker 6: Barton and pleads her case to be able to take
Speaker 6: this and do what's necessary. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 6: about Darty Robinson and her background that shaped her about this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, dok Darty is very interesting person just adjusting her
Speaker 4: background and and has based a lot. She was raised
Speaker 4: by missionary parents who actually took her to Africa when
Speaker 4: she was young and they lived there for a number
Speaker 4: of years and then before returning. And she's an accomplished pianist.
Speaker 4: But but the dark side of this is she was
Speaker 4: also molested twice when she's by two different people, I
Speaker 4: should say more than twice, but two different people during
Speaker 4: her childhood and when she was a teenager. And uh so,
Speaker 4: of course that has brings its own trauma and uh
Speaker 4: into it. But also even more tragically is that Darty
Speaker 4: was married and had a had a family with a
Speaker 4: number of children, and one day one of her daughters
Speaker 4: came to her and said that her husband, his husband,
Speaker 4: the child's father, had molested her. And this, of course
Speaker 4: just threw everything into chaos. Dardy uh went to the
Speaker 4: police with with the allegations. Her husband was arrested. He
Speaker 4: was a very well known man and uh they lived
Speaker 4: in Washington, the state of Washington this time, and so
Speaker 4: he uh, you know, he denied it, of course, and
Speaker 4: h Darty went to Hell with a lot of church
Speaker 4: people and other people, uh accusing her of making all
Speaker 4: this up and and that sort of thing, and uh
Speaker 4: until well into all of this, her husband, former husband
Speaker 4: at this point uh finally confessed, which of course vindicated Darty.
Speaker 4: But you know, she now had a shattered family with
Speaker 4: daughter who had been sexually molested as she had been.
Speaker 4: So it's sort of one of those things where you know,
Speaker 4: she's she's very empathetic to the plight of children. You know,
Speaker 4: Darty ish would put any child ahead of herself, and
Speaker 4: so when she hears about this story about Ron the
Speaker 4: casto's child living with the man who possibly killed her
Speaker 4: mother and is having an affair with the mother's younger sister,
Speaker 4: it definitely motivates her to get involved.
Speaker 6: It's interesting and I think it's important to mention too
Speaker 6: that because of this, again we talked about this tenacious
Speaker 6: character and she has to have that to pursue this campaign,
Speaker 6: is that she wanted to give her husband.
Speaker 1: Years.
Speaker 6: At one point she went to the district attorney and
Speaker 6: she fought and did an investigation and brought those investigative
Speaker 6: skills to her new career as a paralegal. As a
Speaker 6: result of the things that she was able to accomplish
Speaker 6: to protect her children, and he got a maximum he
Speaker 6: got five years. Through that, she convinced the judge that
Speaker 6: he should get that kind of sentence. And then that
Speaker 6: brought those, as you write, those investigative skills to her
Speaker 6: new career at this legal firm. How does she convince
Speaker 6: Bob Barton that he should get involved? And once well,
Speaker 6: once the isn't involved, what do they do in terms
Speaker 6: of trying to get this before a district attorney and
Speaker 6: have these charges followed up on that she has done
Speaker 6: this work for and investigated and about Stephen Nichols.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, Dan, I lost track of you there. What
Speaker 4: what is the question?
Speaker 6: Well, the once she goes to Barton at the law firm,
Speaker 6: what is the next move with in terms of relationship
Speaker 6: with police?
Speaker 4: Okay, okay, that's that's that's what I had had not
Speaker 4: underst stood. Well, they begin a but what they basically
Speaker 4: are doing here is they are the case that they
Speaker 4: take on Miss Simmons. The grandmother has a has already
Speaker 4: filed a custody case trying to get the child, so
Speaker 4: she has a lawyer for that. So what she's what
Speaker 4: Darty and Bob Barton initially start out to do is
Speaker 4: to prevent Stephen Nichols from getting the money from the
Speaker 4: insurance case. And and what they what Darty wants to
Speaker 4: do is to make sure that this money is put
Speaker 4: aside for the child into the future, obviously thinking that
Speaker 4: the child may have some issues to deal with, but
Speaker 4: also just you know, the whole idea of this man
Speaker 4: who that she quickly learns the police believe killed uh
Speaker 4: the mother, and and the insurance company has refused to
Speaker 4: to pay off on this policy at this time due to, uh,
Speaker 4: you know, concerns that Stephen Nichols may have murdered Ron
Speaker 4: de Casto. So that's how they initially get started. It's
Speaker 4: that they don't start to to uh try to prove
Speaker 4: that Nichols did anything to Ron, that they that basically
Speaker 4: they start with the idea of let's stop him from
Speaker 4: getting the money right now and uh and then if
Speaker 4: we have to, will file a wrongful death, which is
Speaker 4: a civil version of a of a murder charge. And
Speaker 4: and it's kind of as he's starting to do this
Speaker 4: that she's learning that, you know, there's a lot more
Speaker 4: to this this whole case. There's the case of the
Speaker 4: younger sister who was being sexually exploited by Stephen Nichols
Speaker 4: when she was only fifteen years old. Nichols goes up
Speaker 4: to when he moves to Bend and is living up
Speaker 4: there with Annie, gets in trouble for sexually molesting a
Speaker 4: thirteen year old girl in a swimming pool, so he
Speaker 4: basically can't keep his hands to himself or anything else.
Speaker 4: During you know, this is eight months after Ronda's death,
Speaker 4: He's already getting in trouble for this sort of thing,
Speaker 4: and so Darty starts to get more and more alarmed.
Speaker 4: Not only is Nichols possibly the murder of murderer of
Speaker 4: Annie's mom Ronda, but he sexually molested underage girls, so
Speaker 4: of course that starts to raise concerns.
Speaker 6: At the same time, you say that Robinson is trying
Speaker 6: to get information from the police from Jerry Tiffany and
Speaker 6: he's not being cooperative. Yet she is providing information she
Speaker 6: believes in asking him and reaching out to him to
Speaker 6: see if she can help in any way. What is
Speaker 6: his response to her reaching out to try to help.
Speaker 4: Well, basically, during this period of time, she was I
Speaker 4: get to put up politely the police investigation a year
Speaker 4: after Ronda's death has pretty much stalled. There are a
Speaker 4: number of witnesses who were never even interviewed, including Nichol's
Speaker 4: former wife and a former girlfriend who had filed domestic
Speaker 4: violence charges against him. He had lawsuits with his siblings
Speaker 4: were suing him for stealing money from a trust, which
Speaker 4: is yet another motive for him needing a lot of
Speaker 4: money fast as he was being sued for about a
Speaker 4: half a million dollars by his siblings, and all of
Speaker 4: this stuff had not been run down by the police
Speaker 4: investigation which was supposed to be headed by Sergeant Tiffany.
Speaker 4: So Tiffany, as she started to feed him information hoping
Speaker 4: that he would reciprocate and give her information, basically would
Speaker 4: take her information, say thank you, but then say he
Speaker 4: couldn't tell her anything because it was an ongoing investigation.
Speaker 4: Curious as to what ongoing investigation since he had not
Speaker 4: interviewed some witnesses or interview them late or it wasn't
Speaker 4: doing anything much with these as far as a Darty
Speaker 4: could tell or any sort.
Speaker 6: Of paperwork, So how do they they It's very interesting
Speaker 6: with the civil wrongful death civil suit and in the
Speaker 6: aim of that in terms of the purpose behind this,
Speaker 6: and you explain what the difference is between a civil
Speaker 6: suit and you, of course the best example is O. J. Simpson,
Speaker 6: and then you explain the difference in terms of preponderance
Speaker 6: of evidence. But tell us about why they thought of this,
Speaker 6: how it came to them, and explain the difference in
Speaker 6: the civil and criminal cases and why they thought that
Speaker 6: this would be an advantage for them.
Speaker 4: Well, there there's a couple of things going on here
Speaker 4: with they by all a wrongful death, which, as you noted,
Speaker 4: is very similar to what happened in the O. J.
Speaker 4: Simpson case where OJ was uh tried in the criminal
Speaker 4: court and found not guilty. So the families of Ron
Speaker 4: Goldman and Nicole Brown Simpson uh suit in civil court
Speaker 4: with what's called a wrongful death suit. As we all know,
Speaker 4: in a criminal case, the evidence the state has to
Speaker 4: prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt, which is fairly
Speaker 4: high bar. It's not beyond any and all doubt, as
Speaker 4: some people will say, but it's beyond a reasonable doubt,
Speaker 4: which Andy, and you have to have a unanimous jury
Speaker 4: verdict to convict somebody in a criminal case with a
Speaker 4: with a murder condition with a wrongful death you are. Basically,
Speaker 4: it's the preponderance of an evidence would lead uh, you know,
Speaker 4: the jury to believe that he was indeed guilt, guilty
Speaker 4: of having caused the death of the victim in this case,
Speaker 4: Rondo Castro and Uh. And it doesn't require a unanimous jury.
Speaker 4: It's it's a majority, a simple majority. And of course
Speaker 4: in the criminal case there's the possibility of imprisonment as
Speaker 4: well as fines and that sort of thing. With the
Speaker 4: civil case, it's it's it's a matter of the money
Speaker 4: and getting getting a settlement from the the defendant. In
Speaker 4: this case with Ronda, there's a couple of things that
Speaker 4: are trying to accomplish. One is that if Nichols, the
Speaker 4: insurance company turns around, turned around and and gave Nichols
Speaker 4: the money, because he was doing the insurance company for
Speaker 4: this money, if they turned around and gave it to him,
Speaker 4: they wanted to make sure they could sue Nichols and
Speaker 4: hopefully get the money that way for Annie through the
Speaker 4: wrongful death losses. And the other part is to is
Speaker 4: that if Nichols was sued, they'd be able to depose him,
Speaker 4: which in a criminal trial, we all know that the
Speaker 4: defendant isn't required to take the stand in his own defense.
Speaker 4: Most don't take the stand because then if you subject
Speaker 4: yourself to cross examination, questions and all that sort of thing.
Speaker 4: But in the civil suit, Nichols would have had to
Speaker 4: have been deposed under oak, which means they could have
Speaker 4: asked me questions about the circumstances of Ronda's death, and
Speaker 4: in the same sort of cross examination that would have
Speaker 4: happened in aiminal trial, except for with the deposition, and
Speaker 4: then of course that he could have been brought to
Speaker 4: the span during the civil during the trial part of
Speaker 4: the civil suit, and the and question on the stand
Speaker 4: with the attorney of course having the record of what
Speaker 4: he said in the deposition. So in a way it's
Speaker 4: it's a way of forcing him to answer questions about
Speaker 4: Ronda's death, which he had refused to do after the
Speaker 4: initial couple of interviews with police that night of and
Speaker 4: so this is sort of a way to get to
Speaker 4: him without it being a criminal case. And of course,
Speaker 4: at this time, the difference between the O. J. Simpson
Speaker 4: case and this case was there was no criminal case
Speaker 4: yet against Nickels, no murder murder case. So whatever he
Speaker 4: had said in a deposition during the civil case, or
Speaker 4: if he took the stand during the civil case, could
Speaker 4: have also been used in a future criminal case. And
Speaker 4: that's the importance of what they were trying to do.
Speaker 6: There absolutely, very very unique and I thought that was
Speaker 6: a very fascinating part of this case, one of them. Anyway,
Speaker 6: let's talk about two February third, twenty and eleven and
Speaker 6: Darty Robinson and Bob Barton. Why are they lived as
Speaker 6: you write? What's going on in the Shoots County that's
Speaker 6: made them angry?
Speaker 4: Well, this goes back to Stephen Nichols. He's arrested and
Speaker 4: indicted for five counts felony counts of sexual abuse of
Speaker 4: a minor from this incident that took place eight months
Speaker 4: after Ronda's death up in ben in the swimming pool.
Speaker 4: So you know, this is important to them for a
Speaker 4: number of reasons. One is they believe he's a sexual
Speaker 4: abuse abuse her. Uh, he's the guilty of sexual assault.
Speaker 4: And also that you know now it could give them
Speaker 4: some leverage to to get farther into the Ronda Casto case.
Speaker 4: So anyway, they they've gone up and they've talked to
Speaker 4: the prosecutor in the Shoots County District Attorney's office during
Speaker 4: after Nichols was indicted, and and for a good half year,
Speaker 4: or actually more than half. You're almost a year and
Speaker 4: a half of all this. You know, the Nichols get
Speaker 4: some good defense attorneys. They stall, they they get to
Speaker 4: ask for other times. They they investigate. They of course
Speaker 4: go after the thirteen year old and try to paint
Speaker 4: a bad picture of her. There's a lot of this
Speaker 4: sort of thing going on, and so uh, but Darty
Speaker 4: and Bob Barton are very interested in that the prosecutor
Speaker 4: uh stays on the case and uh and goes after
Speaker 4: him for the felonies, which will also give him a
Speaker 4: sexual assault felony. While this other case of sexual assault
Speaker 4: down in Portland on Rondo's younger sisters is also being investigated.
Speaker 4: So the prosecutor up there, a woman named Jody Bond,
Speaker 4: assures them for during this whole time that she's she's
Speaker 4: not going to plead this case. She's going to continue
Speaker 4: to press for felony charges. She's very confident, she's very good.
Speaker 4: She's done this, done sexic cases for number of years.
Speaker 4: And uh, and so it looks like they're going to
Speaker 4: go to in January of twenty eleven. But shortly before
Speaker 4: they're they're a an election and they're a new district
Speaker 4: attorney is elected. And one thing, he fires all of
Speaker 4: his all of the former deputy district attorneys, including Jody
Speaker 4: Vonn when this is going on, and then he directs
Speaker 4: another deputy district attorney, one who's still there, to plead
Speaker 4: the case out. So basically they pleaded out to a
Speaker 4: misdemeanor sexual molesting case. Nichols gets a slap on the risk, essentially,
Speaker 4: and suddenly that case goes away. Right.
Speaker 6: You also say that fortunately Darty Robinson obtained a certified
Speaker 6: copy of the Shoots County file and a certified copy
Speaker 6: of the audio tape of the sentencing carrying, and you
Speaker 6: say years later, you write, years later, it would prove crucial.
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Speaker 6: Third love dot com slash true. Steve we talked about
Speaker 6: the frustration that Darty Robinson was experiencing with this incredibly
Speaker 6: lenient sentence, especially when they were agreed to that they
Speaker 6: were hoping for and been promised a much more harsh
Speaker 6: sentence for him, a more appropriate sentence. So what to
Speaker 6: does Starty Robinson and Bob Barton do next?
Speaker 4: Well, obviously, as you said, this was this was very
Speaker 4: disappointing for them, and uh, you know that with everything else,
Speaker 4: they needs to stall the the sexual assault investigation down
Speaker 4: in Portland on the younger sister, the murder, the murder
Speaker 4: case doesn't seem to be going anywhere, uh and uh
Speaker 4: so all they can do at this moment is just
Speaker 4: continue with their plan to stop Nichols from getting the
Speaker 4: money from the life insurance policy and keep gathering information
Speaker 4: and sending it to Jerry Tiffany, hoping that at some
Speaker 4: point he he will put a case together and and
Speaker 4: do something about Ron de Casto's death. They are convinced
Speaker 4: by this time because they've they've done their own investigation,
Speaker 4: probably a better investigation than the police had done. I
Speaker 4: think that's actually fairly obvious, and were as convinced as
Speaker 4: any of the police detectives, and a number of them
Speaker 4: were convinced that Jerry Tiffany has said he was convinced
Speaker 4: that Nichols was responsible, but another number of other detectives
Speaker 4: who weren't in charge had also believed it, and in
Speaker 4: so so Gardy and Bob Barton. Remember Bob Barton was
Speaker 4: a former prosecutor in Orange County, which is a very
Speaker 4: large UH district attorney's office, as opposed to the very
Speaker 4: tiny district attorney's office in Hood River County, which is
Speaker 4: the county where Ronda was murdered or died. I guess
Speaker 4: I should say at this point the so all they
Speaker 4: can do is is is keep trying to gather information,
Speaker 4: talk to witnesses, get them on the record. As you noted,
Speaker 4: Darty got a copy of the Nichols sentencing hearing him
Speaker 4: the plea deal he got because as you said, this
Speaker 4: will this will come into play uh later in UH
Speaker 4: and actually will appear in book three. It's important. But
Speaker 4: so they just continue with their investigation, just realizing that
Speaker 4: somehow Nichols keeps slipping through the uh uh. The fine
Speaker 4: machinations of justice. I guess.
Speaker 6: We talked about the years later would prove crucial. You
Speaker 6: talk about that certified copy of the auto tape of
Speaker 6: the sentence and hearing and just the copy of the
Speaker 6: Shoots County file itself. What do they get, especially from
Speaker 6: that audio tape of the sentencing hearing. What does Darty
Speaker 6: and Bob Barton realize and have as ammunition per se
Speaker 6: in that sentencing hearing.
Speaker 4: Well, I think that the part of what it is
Speaker 4: is that you know, they have a record now that
Speaker 4: he of what he had done, and both his remarks
Speaker 4: to the police when they came over. They were investigating this,
Speaker 4: and they came over and he essentially admitted to what
Speaker 4: he had done. Also, the thirteen year old girl and
Speaker 4: her parents. Some of the texts that Steve Nichols sent
Speaker 4: to this thirteen year old berry sexually suggestive. He's send
Speaker 4: a photograph with himself posing shirtless in front of a mirror.
Speaker 4: And this is a thirty four year old guy. I'm
Speaker 4: sending this sort of thing to a thirteen year old girl.
Speaker 4: And so this is all preserved will, which, as we've said,
Speaker 4: will come in to play later on in this. So
Speaker 4: you know that basically is the is that they're they're
Speaker 4: building this case that they they believe should have been
Speaker 4: being built by the police.
Speaker 6: You talk about October eleventh, twenty eleven, regarding the wrongful death,
Speaker 6: and you call it a cross claim. Tell us what
Speaker 6: happens in that case, Well.
Speaker 4: The wrongful death is is eventually drawn out, which wasn't
Speaker 4: entirely unexpected. A judge says, this is not the right
Speaker 4: venue for it, you know, that would be more of
Speaker 4: a federal case. And so they it gets thrown out.
Speaker 4: But it serves its purpose of the The insurance company
Speaker 4: can't settle with Nickels and give him the money. And
Speaker 4: there was also a guardian at Lythham who wanted some
Speaker 4: of the money. Everybody wants all this money except for
Speaker 4: for Annie and so, and that's Darty's of course. The
Speaker 4: main objective is to make sure that Hanny gets the money.
Speaker 4: So they they they get to the they deposed the
Speaker 4: insurance company agent who sold this insurance policy to Ronda,
Speaker 4: and a lot of things come out. There's there's items
Speaker 4: like originally they had asked for a smaller amount five
Speaker 4: hundred thousand on Ronda and Steve both, and that was
Speaker 4: when Ronda was present. Then when the agent got back
Speaker 4: to his office, Steve called him up and asked if
Speaker 4: they could raise it to actually he wanted one point
Speaker 4: four million on Ronda's But after a couple of weeks
Speaker 4: of negotiating back and forth, they settled on a one
Speaker 4: million dollar policy, which is very questionable. In the first place,
Speaker 4: you don't give a million dollar policy for a young
Speaker 4: woman who was unemployed, had no asset, was on was
Speaker 4: as a matter of fact, on welfare and food stamps,
Speaker 4: because Steven Nickels did very little to support her or
Speaker 4: her child. And so this is a mistake in the
Speaker 4: first place by this insurance company. And and for this
Speaker 4: very reason is that you don't, you know, give somebody
Speaker 4: an insurance policy that provides a motive to to h
Speaker 4: to murder somebody else and you and there should be
Speaker 4: and there usually is requirements of you know, uh being
Speaker 4: able to prove a certain amount of income for that
Speaker 4: that is somewhat close to what you're asking as an
Speaker 4: insurance policy. And there's it's also the quickness that uh,
Speaker 4: you know, Steve Nichols is very anxious to have this
Speaker 4: done and done quickly and uh, and it's done he
Speaker 4: I believed, first applies in November. They're given the UH.
Speaker 4: After this, from this back and forth and settling on
Speaker 4: a million dollars, UH, they go back to they get
Speaker 4: the policy is a is awarded to them in December
Speaker 4: and they receive it in January. There's a number of
Speaker 4: buys on both applications, so the whole thing was a mess.
Speaker 4: The insurance agent who sold it to him was very
Speaker 4: inexperienced and he did not get much help from the
Speaker 4: higher ups in the office, and so they deposed him.
Speaker 4: And all of this comes out about how this was
Speaker 4: arranged and arranged very quickly, and I believe they get
Speaker 4: the insurance policy sign on it in January, and of
Speaker 4: course Ronda is dead two months later.
Speaker 6: As part of this too. In October twenty eleven, you
Speaker 6: talk about the settlement was reached about the money. Tell
Speaker 6: us how the court rules on that money dispersion.
Speaker 4: So there is a settlement that the court doesn't actually
Speaker 4: make the decision, they agree with it once it's made.
Speaker 4: Is basically Steve Nichols did not want to be deposed.
Speaker 4: He did not want to go under oath and be
Speaker 4: asked questions that could be used later to uh to
Speaker 4: match against whatever he told the police and whatever he
Speaker 4: might say or have exposed in a criminal trial. So
Speaker 4: he agrees that it's going to release any any sort
Speaker 4: of hole he has on the money and so the
Speaker 4: only money Steve Nichols actually gets out of this is
Speaker 4: to pay his attorneys off, which is it was a
Speaker 4: chunk of money several one hundred thousand dollars and uh
Speaker 4: and the rest of the money goes into a trust
Speaker 4: for Annie. Uh and and that's sort of where the
Speaker 4: book two ends up with Darty has been successful at
Speaker 4: stopping Nichols from getting any of this money. The remainder
Speaker 4: of the money, UH well, his interest on it is
Speaker 4: in a trust with Annie. Now at this point Steve
Speaker 4: Nichols is still her guardian, has custody of her, and
Speaker 4: he's allowed to use the money for her her niece,
Speaker 4: not his, but hers such as the dance lessons or
Speaker 4: clothing or or things along those lines. But he's supposed
Speaker 4: to be held under a very uh if there's somebody
Speaker 4: watching over this this trust who he has to report
Speaker 4: the expenditures too. And this will also come into play
Speaker 4: in later books as to how he manipulates this uh somewhat.
Speaker 4: But the main point and ending for book two is
Speaker 4: that Guardy and Bob Barton have done what they set
Speaker 4: out to do, which is to make sure Steve Nichols
Speaker 4: doesn't receive this money. And that it's put a guide
Speaker 4: for Annie. But the last the last part of book
Speaker 4: two is that at this point Gardy is determined that
Speaker 4: not only will Steve Nichols not receive any money, but
Speaker 4: he'll answer uh uh to justice for the death of
Speaker 4: Ron mcasso if she has anything to do with it.
Speaker 6: You talk about that, but we didn't mention how much
Speaker 6: does she find out? How much do her and as
Speaker 6: a result, Bob Barton know about the particulars of this
Speaker 6: case that looks from anyone looking at looks like an
Speaker 6: obvious murder.
Speaker 4: Well, there are there are some indications she doesn't know
Speaker 4: everything at this point. She does know that his some
Speaker 4: of what he tells the police doesn't match. Uh, you know,
Speaker 4: that's the facts, and that he changes his stories. Uh,
Speaker 4: there's the the She has heard a number of things,
Speaker 4: both in family members and friends, that Nichols had basically
Speaker 4: made some threats in the past. Of course, there's a
Speaker 4: million dollar insurance policy as one motive. There's another motive
Speaker 4: in the in the younger that he's obsessed with the
Speaker 4: younger sister and wants Ronda out of the way so
Speaker 4: he can be with her. Even tells her at some
Speaker 4: point that Annie will forget her mom and and the
Speaker 4: younger sister can step in and be the mom. There's
Speaker 4: the the He makes claims such as that he he
Speaker 4: went and bought an engagement ring and was going to
Speaker 4: propose to Ronda on this trail from which she fell,
Speaker 4: and that was the reason they're up there on a
Speaker 4: rather nasty weather day. But there's there's no proof that
Speaker 4: he ever bought it. That they go to the jewelry
Speaker 4: store where he claims to have purchased this, and they
Speaker 4: said no, they were in here, but nobody ever bought anything.
Speaker 4: So he's getting caught and lies for one thing, And
Speaker 4: why do you lie if if the truth serves you.
Speaker 4: He has the two sexual assault on minors cases, the one,
Speaker 4: of course we just talked about he ends up with
Speaker 4: the slap on the wrist because of the district attorney,
Speaker 4: and the other one is still being investigated this time.
Speaker 4: And so there's there's just a lot of you know,
Speaker 4: it's a it's a circumstantial case. There's you know, there
Speaker 4: were no witnesses to when Ronda fell. Uh, there is
Speaker 4: a witness that Darty at this time is not yet
Speaker 4: aware of who was the search and rescue a guy
Speaker 4: who was the first with his partner, were the first
Speaker 4: to reach Ronda's body, and that they found there. We
Speaker 4: talked in the first first segment about how that did
Speaker 4: not match Nichol's story either. So she's just she's like
Speaker 4: any good investigator. You know, there's a point where you
Speaker 4: use a chipping point, where you're convinced of something. And
Speaker 4: so now you've got to go see if you can
Speaker 4: put together a case and if you can present it
Speaker 4: to somebody who will take this board. Darty by this
Speaker 4: time has talked to Stephen Nichols's former wife, who's told
Speaker 4: her that when they were living in Shanghai, at one
Speaker 4: point he attempted to first smother her and then tried
Speaker 4: to throw her off the balcony of an eight four
Speaker 4: balcony in Shanghai, kind of which, you know, you start
Speaker 4: putting things together of motus forenda, which is throws somebody
Speaker 4: off of a high h of a balcony or a
Speaker 4: cliff or or whatever else. And then in his history
Speaker 4: of sexual assault and physical assault, particularly with women, and
Speaker 4: and so this just sets her off on quest number two,
Speaker 4: which is too you know, pursue. She's she's protected Annie,
Speaker 4: and and and even though Annie is still in the
Speaker 4: possession of Steve Nichols, which she's now trying to work
Speaker 4: on that custody Casey, the first custody lawyer, does not
Speaker 4: do a very good job and in fact doesn't do anything,
Speaker 4: is eventually disbarred as a results of this and some
Speaker 4: other cases. But so they kind of they take on
Speaker 4: the custody case as well, even though Bob Barton now
Speaker 4: has kind of done his job and is backing out
Speaker 4: of it, but he he allows Darty to continue forward
Speaker 4: trying to put together the evidence needed for a murder case.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about too, sorry, go ahead, go ahead,
Speaker 6: go ahead, you talk about the the she and Barton
Speaker 6: had asked to meet with the Hood River district attorney
Speaker 6: named Sewell. That sounds like, if I'm not correct, it
Speaker 6: sounds like they're trying to go over someone's head to
Speaker 6: try to appeal to this district attorney. What's the result
Speaker 6: of that. I know, we probably said, Well.
Speaker 4: First of all, they try to go through Tiffany saying,
Speaker 4: you know, we we'd like to, you know, talk to
Speaker 4: the district attorney Sewell, and Tiffany is sort of, well,
Speaker 4: why do you want to do that? And there's like, well,
Speaker 4: we'd like to you know, present what we think is
Speaker 4: the case and maybe help you get some uh support
Speaker 4: and uh, you know, to to keep going board with
Speaker 4: this and and that sort of thing. But at this
Speaker 4: point nothing much comes of it yet. And once again
Speaker 4: that will be handled in book three and four, uh
Speaker 4: and in how that comes to uh to change over
Speaker 4: time and and some of the other things that happened
Speaker 4: during this period of time.
Speaker 6: You write in the book that very cryptic. You talk
Speaker 6: about Ronda talking or Randa talking to her aunt about
Speaker 6: the proposed cryptical hiking that that day. Tell us if
Speaker 6: she knew about that and what that claim was.
Speaker 4: From the end, well, the the ant and the grandmother
Speaker 4: actually both anim that they received a text from Ronda
Speaker 4: that about the hike Stephens. Stephens been talking about going
Speaker 4: on this hike for some time, and you know, and
Speaker 4: he tells the police a bunch of varying stories, everything
Speaker 4: from they wanted to lose weight to where he wanted
Speaker 4: to propose to her in a romantic spot, various stories.
Speaker 4: But the aunt and the grandmother said they receive a
Speaker 4: note from Ronda shortly before they leave for this hike
Speaker 4: thing he either wants to propose to me or shove
Speaker 4: me off a cliff. And that of course is just
Speaker 4: you know, day day, this is the day that she dies.
Speaker 4: That's sort of one of those you know, trust the
Speaker 4: sort of statements of of what what happens, you know,
Speaker 4: the uh, you know Nichols will come along later. Know
Speaker 4: that you know they're lying about that. You know, there's
Speaker 4: because they don't have they don't didn't keep the text
Speaker 4: and uh, and so there's there's no proof of this.
Speaker 4: On the other hand, when you're looking at this as
Speaker 4: an investigator, the police go over to the house on
Speaker 4: the night Ronda dies, uh that they've been told she's dead.
Speaker 4: They go over there to to break the news, and
Speaker 4: without having any time to kind of come up with
Speaker 4: the story or make these sorts of things up, they
Speaker 4: they make these statements. They make the statements about that
Speaker 4: there's a life insurance policy. Uh. The ant and the
Speaker 4: grandmother says, she told us he was either going to
Speaker 4: propose or throw her off the cliffs. So you know,
Speaker 4: if you don't realize the kind of timing of this,
Speaker 4: you could say, Okay, well, this is a upset, angry family.
Speaker 4: They came along later. Maybe they want the insurance money,
Speaker 4: so they make up all these things. They didn't have
Speaker 4: time for that, they didn't have time to put their
Speaker 4: heads together and say, Okay, what you should say is this,
Speaker 4: and what you should say is that. So, you know,
Speaker 4: when you're building a circumstantial case, a good prosecutor has
Speaker 4: to be very aware of making sure the jury understands
Speaker 4: that that very thing is that there is no time
Speaker 4: here to come up with a this kind of a
Speaker 4: story with this kind of details.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you also talk about that we mentioned in the
Speaker 6: introduction too as well, that the parallel investigation is to
Speaker 6: this case is being conducted by yourself and private investigator
Speaker 6: Tom McCallum. And you say, posing the same questions, tell
Speaker 6: us a little bit about investigator Tom McCallum, and just
Speaker 6: this parallel investigation that is being conducted at the same time.
Speaker 4: Well, this is this has starts to happen right about
Speaker 4: the time when uh uh, the insurance case is wrapping
Speaker 4: up and Darty is uh uh, you know, has done
Speaker 4: what she wanted to do, has saved the money for Annie,
Speaker 4: is now starting her custody uh part of the case
Speaker 4: as well as looking into justice for Ron de Casto.
Speaker 4: And we're completely unaware of her. Tom Tom is Tom.
Speaker 4: Tom is from a very very wealthy man in the
Speaker 4: Bend area of Oregon, and he has some concerns because
Speaker 4: his daughter, who is going through a divorce, is is
Speaker 4: dating this guy that he and all their friends find
Speaker 4: kind of creepy. This guy, you know, he's he's got
Speaker 4: a young child now, uh, you know, a year and
Speaker 4: something years old, almost two. He's hanging around her daughter
Speaker 4: with his kind of money. You know, he checks out everything.
Speaker 4: So he has Tom to run a background check, and that,
Speaker 4: of course becomes part of becomes book three. Sort of interesting.
Speaker 4: Tom and I had met in nineteen eighty nine, I believe,
Speaker 4: when I was living in Oregon and the Oregon Department
Speaker 4: of Corrections head was murdered in a parking lot outside
Speaker 4: of the organ Department of Corrections building, and it became
Speaker 4: the police and prosecutors tried to paint this story that
Speaker 4: he'd been surprised by some burglar as he was getting
Speaker 4: into his car, but none of that added up, and
Speaker 4: a young man was arrested about a year after it happened.
Speaker 4: And everything I've been doing up to that point, investigating
Speaker 4: who I'd probably written several hundred stories all told, maybe
Speaker 4: maybe not quite that many by this time. But I
Speaker 4: suddenly got a call from the defense investigator for the
Speaker 4: young man who had been arrested, and he wanted me
Speaker 4: to sit down with him and talk about how I
Speaker 4: found out what I'd found out, And at first I
Speaker 4: told him to bug off. I wasn't sharing anything with anybody.
Speaker 4: And that happened for a couple of times, and finally
Speaker 4: this guy, Tom McCollum volunteered to buy me lunch, and
Speaker 4: as you know, all journalists will go for a free lunch,
Speaker 4: so we ended up meeting and uh and it became
Speaker 4: fast friends after that have done some different investigations together.
Speaker 4: So when Tom got a call from this billionaire and
Speaker 4: this is the start of book three, UH, and Tom
Speaker 4: discovers that this guy, this creepy guy whose name is
Speaker 4: Stephen Nichols, just some domestic violence charges restraining orders against
Speaker 4: him had it was possibly a suspect and a murder case. Obviously,
Speaker 4: this raises a bunch of red flags, and Tom decided
Speaker 4: he needed a little help on the investigations, so he
Speaker 4: called me and I drove out in January of twenty
Speaker 4: twelve and we started our investigation, which as you note
Speaker 4: parallels a lot of what Darty had done and is
Speaker 4: still doing at this time, though we are unaware of
Speaker 4: her for probably the next six months.
Speaker 6: And started three absolutely, and it's called The Journalist and
Speaker 6: the Private Eye, and book four is called Case Closed.
Speaker 6: Tell us when book three is going to be released.
Speaker 6: Hopefully it isn't released yet, to tell us when it's
Speaker 6: going to be released, and book four, when it's slated
Speaker 6: to be released.
Speaker 4: Book three is going to be released shortly after Christmas.
Speaker 4: In fact, there may be a little Christmas present for
Speaker 4: everybody on that one. We're still working out details. And
Speaker 4: then book four will come out in January. And for
Speaker 4: those who don't want to read books in parts, even
Speaker 4: though we think it's kind of an exciting way, we've
Speaker 4: had lots of people tell us that it's kind of
Speaker 4: fun to have something to look forward to, but people
Speaker 4: who don't want to read that way. In late February
Speaker 4: will probably be releasing the entire book or all four
Speaker 4: books combined into one. So if you'd rather wait until
Speaker 4: till then you can, or you can stay up with
Speaker 4: everybody else on what's going on in the case.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, I think it's a real success doing it this way.
Speaker 6: Like I had mentioned to you beforehand, I said, it
Speaker 6: just really draws you more, even more so into the
Speaker 6: characters that are involved in this As you say, you
Speaker 6: weren't even aware of people that heroic people and heroic
Speaker 6: efforts to be able to solve this case. And then
Speaker 6: without that knowledge you and Tom McCallum undergo and undertake
Speaker 6: this investigation on your own as well. And it's a
Speaker 6: fascinating case and a fascinating way of delivering this story
Speaker 6: to the audience, I think. So I want to thank
Speaker 6: you very much for coming on and talking about Saving Annie.
Speaker 6: Book two The Investigator. Thank you very much, Steve Jackson.
Speaker 6: For those people that might not know about Wild Blue Press,
Speaker 6: can you just give us a little bit of information.
Speaker 6: I know many authors that have been on this program
Speaker 6: are from the Wild Blue Press stable of authors. Tell
Speaker 6: us a little bit about Wild Blue Press and how
Speaker 6: they might look at your other work and the roster
Speaker 6: of fine authors Wild Blue Press.
Speaker 4: We're an indie publishing company. We like to say we're
Speaker 4: an A through Z company that we we have the
Speaker 4: best of traditional publishers along with the best of indie publishers.
Speaker 4: We specialize in particular and true crime as well as
Speaker 4: thrillers and mysteries. That we have a couple of histories
Speaker 4: and are hoping this year to expand into some other genres.
Speaker 4: But can find out all about us at wildbluepress dot com.
Speaker 4: That's wild blue press dot com all one word, and
Speaker 4: to find our list of authors. We have some great
Speaker 4: true crime That is that this ball has just been
Speaker 4: one great book after another, and it's going to continue
Speaker 4: into the new year. We like to like to think
Speaker 4: that we're the leading publisher and true crime right now.
Speaker 6: Absolutely, Steve. I want to congratulate you on that. An
Speaker 6: incredible diverse group of authors and subjects, and I think
Speaker 6: it's taken true crime where it needed to go. I
Speaker 6: think some of the other obviously the big publishers have
Speaker 6: not got the pulse of the reader, the true crime reader.
Speaker 6: So I think Wild Blue Press has certainly got the
Speaker 6: lion's share of all the real good true crime authors
Speaker 6: and the fantastic stories that they've written about. I want
Speaker 6: to thank you very much, Steve for coming on and
Speaker 6: talking about saving Annie Book two The Investigator. You have
Speaker 6: a great evening. Thank you very much, Steve Jackson.
Speaker 4: YouTube Dan. It's always a pleasure.
Speaker 6: Thank you.
Speaker 4: Good night,