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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back in your Leadership. I'm Chris, I'm Lorenzo, and

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<v Speaker 1>Lorenzo on this episode, I want to talk about an

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<v Speaker 1>interaction that we had on LinkedIn with one of our connections.

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<v Speaker 1>This is a person named Matt Dunsmore, and we asked

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<v Speaker 1>Matt if we could, uh, you know, talk about this

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<v Speaker 1>on an episode, and he gave gave his permission. So

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<v Speaker 1>Matt was kind of shared a post on LinkedIn where

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<v Speaker 1>he had an interaction with his boss that didn't go

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<v Speaker 1>the way that he expected to go. And basically, the

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<v Speaker 1>boss reacted poorly in a moment and it was rooted

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<v Speaker 1>in external stressors that that that his boss was going

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<v Speaker 1>through because of other things happening at work, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>he wasn't you know, making an excuse for his boss.

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<v Speaker 1>He was kind of giving an explanation, but but he

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<v Speaker 1>talked very openly about how that reaction from his boss

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<v Speaker 1>in the moment really eroded the trust he had in

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<v Speaker 1>his boss. And you know, we've we've spoken about the

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<v Speaker 1>importance of predictability if if you're if you're a leader,

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<v Speaker 1>that you want to be predictable when you when you

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<v Speaker 1>interact with your people so that they they know how

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<v Speaker 1>you're going to respond in any in any you know, interaction,

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<v Speaker 1>And I think this was a great example of this

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<v Speaker 1>kind of playing out in reality and not just you know, hypothetically.

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<v Speaker 1>He talks really candidly about the fear that comes along

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<v Speaker 1>with that and what that can do to an entire team.

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<v Speaker 1>So I wanted to discuss this because I think it's

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<v Speaker 1>something that you know, we both think is very important

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<v Speaker 1>when it comes to the responsibilities.

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<v Speaker 2>Of a leader. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, I enjoyed the post, And to your point, I

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<v Speaker 3>know we've spoken about some of the similar concepts before

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<v Speaker 3>on the podcast, but what I what I appreciated most

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<v Speaker 3>about it was kind of towards the end of his

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<v Speaker 3>post when he talks about it's not enough to be

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<v Speaker 3>great when things are going well. True leadership shows up

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<v Speaker 3>in the hard moments and it's about emotional regulation, self awareness,

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<v Speaker 3>and accountability. And then he said this not using passion

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<v Speaker 3>in quotation marks as an excuse for bad behavior, right,

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<v Speaker 3>And I think that it's that's it's such a great

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<v Speaker 3>call out and just a reminder around the role and

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<v Speaker 3>the expectation of leadership and what you're doing and what's

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<v Speaker 3>going on and what you're responsible for and what you're

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<v Speaker 3>accountable for and the role that you have when it

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<v Speaker 3>comes to shaping culture and ways of working and the

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<v Speaker 3>framework of what you're in which your team operates. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>these are things that I've seen over my career. When

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<v Speaker 3>you have a leader like this, When you have a

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<v Speaker 3>leader that has these kind of like off the handle

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<v Speaker 3>moments or is not able to you know, regulate their

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<v Speaker 3>emotions or these types of things, well, then guess what

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<v Speaker 3>happens with the rest of the team. You see the

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<v Speaker 3>same things start to happen amongst the direct reports. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>especially if you're working on a team like this where

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<v Speaker 3>maybe you've got one direct boss and you've got multiple

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<v Speaker 3>leaders on that team. Well, now you start to do

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<v Speaker 3>it to one another. Now it becomes a part of

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<v Speaker 3>just how things get done here, and it becomes you know,

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<v Speaker 3>it becomes okay to to make a comment and then

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<v Speaker 3>walk out of a meeting like like, how is that

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<v Speaker 3>ever productive? How is that ever you know, creating collaboration,

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<v Speaker 3>creating space to to to make sure that we're we're

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<v Speaker 3>having a you know, positive work towards trying to find

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<v Speaker 3>a common goal. So okay, yeah, maybe you did walk

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<v Speaker 3>out of a meeting maybe you did walk out of

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<v Speaker 3>something where you know, things like that your leader treated

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<v Speaker 3>you that way. And I think that's an exact example

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<v Speaker 3>of that. To walk out of one meeting and to

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<v Speaker 3>walk into this one and have that type of reaction

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<v Speaker 3>to your team tells me all I need to know

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<v Speaker 3>about the meeting you were just in, right right, I

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<v Speaker 3>don't even have to be there to know what would

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<v Speaker 3>have to happen to someone to put them in that

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<v Speaker 3>type of a mentally emotional state to feel like that

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<v Speaker 3>would be okay to do their own team. Well, I'm

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<v Speaker 3>sure it was exactly the same thing that happened in

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<v Speaker 3>that meeting, right right. Somebody felt embarrassed, they felt attacked,

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<v Speaker 3>They maybe they had their their ego is hurting, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>whatever that might be, and they're just kind of projecting

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<v Speaker 3>and cascading that same emotion through their team. And if

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<v Speaker 3>I had to guess, and I'm sure if I asked Matt,

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<v Speaker 3>like number one, how long did you stick around? And

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<v Speaker 3>number two that team that you were on, was this

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<v Speaker 3>a team that was just like, you know, a great

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<v Speaker 3>team and a high performing team. If I'm in Vegas,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm putting my money on probably not especially over long.

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<v Speaker 2>Periods of time. Right.

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<v Speaker 1>So, so first of all, I think it's important that

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<v Speaker 1>we when we discussing it like this, that an explanation

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<v Speaker 1>and an excuse are not the same thing. Right, There's

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<v Speaker 1>always a reason why something happened. That doesn't mean that

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<v Speaker 1>it's okay. It just means that there's a reason.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 1>So, your boss treating you that way is not a

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<v Speaker 1>good reason or an excuse to treat your people that way.

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<v Speaker 1>But if that's the cause of it, then it is

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<v Speaker 1>what it is. If you're saying that you know, if

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<v Speaker 1>you if you're of a belief that the what's the

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<v Speaker 1>old saying that the ship rolls downhill? Right, Like, if

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<v Speaker 1>you believe that if you got treated a certain way,

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<v Speaker 1>that it's now part of your responsibility to make sure

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<v Speaker 1>that your people know that because either you you are

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<v Speaker 1>blaming them for the fact that you got yelled at,

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<v Speaker 1>either they didn't come through for you, and instead of

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<v Speaker 1>owning that as a failure of leadership, if your people

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<v Speaker 1>aren't coming through for you, what is it that you're

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<v Speaker 1>doing that makes them either not want to or not

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<v Speaker 1>capable of doing it. But this idea of you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the reason why his boss treated him this way, was

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<v Speaker 1>because that's part of the culture of the organization. Clearly,

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<v Speaker 1>if he's being treated that way, it's not a one off.

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<v Speaker 1>I think typically in organizations the culture, it's really difficult

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<v Speaker 1>to change the culture with one bad apple, right, Like,

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<v Speaker 1>if the culture is is good and people treat each other,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, properly, and they are nice to each other.

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<v Speaker 1>A person who gets hired in, who makes it through

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<v Speaker 1>the interview process, who becomes the the you know, using

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<v Speaker 1>air quotes, you're passionate screamer, that person typically won't last

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<v Speaker 1>long the culture outs them, right, So if it's happening

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<v Speaker 1>in multiple places, it implies it's part of the culture

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<v Speaker 1>and it's considered acceptable. Right. So, so I agree with

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<v Speaker 1>you that it's probably not a high performing team. But

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<v Speaker 1>the the ability of Matt in the moment to look

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<v Speaker 1>inwardly not just at why is this a problem because

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<v Speaker 1>of his own personal experience, like don't yell at me,

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<v Speaker 1>but what did it actually do? What did that do

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<v Speaker 1>to me as an employee in the moment, and he

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<v Speaker 1>says that it completely eroded the trust that he had

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<v Speaker 1>with his leader, mainly because he didn't know what to

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<v Speaker 1>expect from his leader going forward from now on whether

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<v Speaker 1>you go when into any meeting or had anything to say.

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<v Speaker 1>He didn't know whether he was about to be applauded

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<v Speaker 1>or chastised or anything in the middle with an interaction

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<v Speaker 1>with this leader from that point forward. And that's a

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<v Speaker 1>huge problem if you want to make sure that your

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<v Speaker 1>people are keeping you in the loop on what's going on,

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<v Speaker 1>if you want to know what's happening on your team,

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<v Speaker 1>if you want to be able to get if you

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<v Speaker 1>want to be able to feel like the information you're

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<v Speaker 1>being given by your people is accurate and truthful and

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<v Speaker 1>all encompassing, then the only way to do that is

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<v Speaker 1>to make sure that they have zero problem coming to

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<v Speaker 1>you with that information. Even if it's information it says

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<v Speaker 1>I messed up, like I made a mistake and I

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<v Speaker 1>messed up. The response from you needs to be arong

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<v Speaker 1>the lines of how do we get through this together?

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<v Speaker 1>Not how do I make sure you were fully aware

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<v Speaker 1>that this is your problem because you fed up?

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely No.

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<v Speaker 3>I think it's a it's such an important, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>thing to consider to think about because I think that

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<v Speaker 3>as as leaders and as you kind of mature in

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<v Speaker 3>your leadership and as you are really kind of solidifying

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<v Speaker 3>and cementing who you are as a leader and how

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<v Speaker 3>you go about doing things. You know, we take so

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<v Speaker 3>much from the leaders that we've had, you know, both

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<v Speaker 3>positive and negative, and there are always going to be

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<v Speaker 3>those situations where somebody had maybe a not so great

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<v Speaker 3>leader and has figured out ways to adjust their own style.

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<v Speaker 2>To like never be that leader.

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<v Speaker 3>But the reality is that, like so much of who

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<v Speaker 3>we are in leadership is so much it is shaped

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<v Speaker 3>by the leaders that we've always had.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I share that because these.

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<v Speaker 3>Are things that if you've experienced this, if you've only

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<v Speaker 3>known leadership this style, if you've only seen it done

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<v Speaker 3>this way over time, if you believe that this person

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<v Speaker 3>is a good leader because they've kept their job for

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<v Speaker 3>a long time, or you see that they have continued

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<v Speaker 3>to get promoted, then it's only human nature that you're

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<v Speaker 3>going to, you know, kind of follow in those footsteps

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<v Speaker 3>to a degree and have these same types of qualities

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<v Speaker 3>and same types of approaches to leadership.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that what we're seeing.

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<v Speaker 3>Now and why you know, we've talked about this podcast,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, being on for so long and people sitting

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<v Speaker 3>us questions and information in scenarios is because we're seeing

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<v Speaker 3>a major shift here and what is being allowed from

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<v Speaker 3>a leadership standpoint, it's the accountability factor of leaders and

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<v Speaker 3>saying like what is acceptable, what's not acceptable? And I

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<v Speaker 3>think over time we're seeing that more and more conversations

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<v Speaker 3>and dialogue like this is happening, not just amongst peers

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<v Speaker 3>and amongst employees, but but in spaces around how we're

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<v Speaker 3>assessing who leaders are and what they do. And we're

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<v Speaker 3>finding that leaders that have this kind of approach or

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<v Speaker 3>are inconsistent or create fear in a team, I think

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<v Speaker 3>are being held accountable much more than they ever have before.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think that's good. I think it's really good

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<v Speaker 3>for the workforce in general. And I think it's something

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<v Speaker 3>that we continue to do is call these things out

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<v Speaker 3>and continue to share and push back on these specific

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<v Speaker 3>types of examples. There's always going to be leaders who

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<v Speaker 3>have to I mean, we all have to hold people accountable.

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<v Speaker 3>We all have to be firm, we all have to

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<v Speaker 3>be clear, we have to be you know, we have

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<v Speaker 3>to be transparent in consequences for actions and what can

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<v Speaker 3>happen if if goals or or or objectives aren't meant.

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<v Speaker 3>We have to do that type of work. But there

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<v Speaker 3>is a way to be clear and fair, and I

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<v Speaker 3>think and do that with with elements of empathy. Then

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<v Speaker 3>there is to just be it, to just do it

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<v Speaker 3>in a very you know, uh, maybe maybe rigid way

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<v Speaker 3>that causes people to feel fear and or to copy

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<v Speaker 3>that behavior or think that behavior is okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, Well, clearly Matt's boss was again not making excuses

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<v Speaker 1>for him, but Matt's boss was probably feeling fear in

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<v Speaker 1>the moment when he was yelling at Matt, because he

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<v Speaker 1>felt fear of what could happen to his own job

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<v Speaker 1>because of the meeting he just got out of with

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<v Speaker 1>his own boss, and and not and in not feeling

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<v Speaker 1>that sense of confidence he may have had in his job,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, an hour before, and so that that comes out,

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<v Speaker 1>that fear comes out in the you know, the the

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<v Speaker 1>stress and the yelling and the and the passion and

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<v Speaker 1>the emotional dysregulation. But I want to go back to

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<v Speaker 1>something else you said I think is really important around

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<v Speaker 1>what we get exposed to and what that leads to doing.

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<v Speaker 1>Because you're right, we do learn from all of the

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<v Speaker 1>leaders that we have, and hopefully over your career you

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<v Speaker 1>have enough examples of leaders that are that are both

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<v Speaker 1>good and bad. Like in reality, you you hopefully become

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<v Speaker 1>blessed enough in your life to be able to work

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<v Speaker 1>for a leader who is not a good leader at

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<v Speaker 1>some point because you and not for a long time,

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<v Speaker 1>but enough to understand what is important to you and

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<v Speaker 1>what is not important to you, what is acceptable to

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<v Speaker 1>you as an employee, was not acceptable to use employee,

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<v Speaker 1>and how that feels, so that you know how it

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<v Speaker 1>feels to other people when you do those things, because

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<v Speaker 1>you're right, if you are only exposed to one type,

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<v Speaker 1>it's really difficult to do anything other than that. And

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<v Speaker 1>you know, you can make the argument that you know, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>we should inherently know it's not the right thing to

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<v Speaker 1>do to this, or it's not the right thing to

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<v Speaker 1>treat people like that. Sure, I guess in your personal

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<v Speaker 1>life maybe, But work life and personal life are different sometimes.

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<v Speaker 1>And I know I know people who have had situations

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<v Speaker 1>where they have a difficult time maintaining employment because of

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<v Speaker 1>the way they treat people at work, but they have

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<v Speaker 1>no problem maintaining friends and personal relationships at life. They

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<v Speaker 1>just think this is the way a boss is supposed

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<v Speaker 1>to act. And the reason they think that is because

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<v Speaker 1>they work for the same boss for a long time,

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<v Speaker 1>they got acclimated it, they got used to it, and

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<v Speaker 1>they tolerated things they shouldn't have tolerated, and over a

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<v Speaker 1>long enough timeline, they started to believe that that was

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<v Speaker 1>the way you were supposed to treat people. And it's

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<v Speaker 1>a frustrating thing to see. But if you can, over

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<v Speaker 1>time work for enough people who have different leadership styles

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<v Speaker 1>to see what not just you gravitate towards, but what

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<v Speaker 1>feels good to you as a person. I don't think

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<v Speaker 1>anybody can say that they want to get yelled at

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<v Speaker 1>from a standpoint to where they lose trust in their leader,

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<v Speaker 1>where they feel like their job is in jeopardy. If

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<v Speaker 1>you've done something and you've made a mistake, you want

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<v Speaker 1>someone who is a leader who said I want to

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<v Speaker 1>be your leader. You want that person to say, how

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<v Speaker 1>can we fix this? Not how can we make sure

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<v Speaker 1>that you're punished for it? And there might be fallout,

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<v Speaker 1>there might be consequences, but that's a different conversation. That's

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<v Speaker 1>not something that has to have the emotion and the

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<v Speaker 1>passion of the moment. The emotion and the passion of

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<v Speaker 1>the moment should be the feverish ways in which you

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<v Speaker 1>try to fix the situation together as teammates and as partners.

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<v Speaker 1>And then if there are consequences later on, they are

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<v Speaker 1>what they are, and you deal with them with you know,

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<v Speaker 1>with empathy and with grace, and you and you treat

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<v Speaker 1>people like human beings absolutely, and with that it brings

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<v Speaker 1>us us to this episode's one minute hack.

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<v Speaker 2>But first a few words for more sponsors.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, for this episode one minute hackers, I want

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<v Speaker 1>you to do. I want you to be cognizant of

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<v Speaker 1>how you put the impression of yourself out when you're

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<v Speaker 1>in your interactions with your people, and not just people

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<v Speaker 1>reporting to you, but your colleagues, your peers, and your

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<v Speaker 1>bosses too. Think about it from this from the standpoint

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<v Speaker 1>of is is what I'm saying, how I'm acting, how

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<v Speaker 1>I'm presenting myself. Is it representative of the personal brand

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<v Speaker 1>that I want people to think of me? And if

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<v Speaker 1>the answer is no, then obviously some changes need to

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<v Speaker 1>be made. But on the flip side, it's not just

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<v Speaker 1>about being consistent. Because you can consistently have bad behavior

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<v Speaker 1>as a leader too, that doesn't mean it's okay just

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<v Speaker 1>because you're predictable. You need to be predictably a good leader.

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<v Speaker 1>But again, the consistency and the predictability is primarily what

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<v Speaker 1>this is about. If your people can't predict how you'll

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<v Speaker 1>respond to them in the moment, they're less likely to

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<v Speaker 1>come to you with a problem. They're less likely to

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<v Speaker 1>ask for help. But if they know that they can

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<v Speaker 1>predict and trust that your response to them is going

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<v Speaker 1>to be one of support and help and how you're

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<v Speaker 1>going to get through this together, they're much more likely

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<v Speaker 1>to come to you when they have an issue. And

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<v Speaker 1>so think about how those interactions happen on the little things,

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<v Speaker 1>because all your predictability, kind of quotient is is is

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<v Speaker 1>a sum of all the previous interactions that people have

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<v Speaker 1>had with you or seeing you have with other people

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<v Speaker 1>over the last recent time. And one interaction that doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>fit with the pattern might not hurt you that much,

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<v Speaker 1>but more than one can, because you probably don't have

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of interactions with a person to where they

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<v Speaker 1>have a lot of data to go off of, and

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<v Speaker 1>so every interaction is important because you never know who's watching.

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<v Speaker 1>You never know who's talking with their peers and their

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<v Speaker 1>friends and their coworkers about the interaction they just had

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<v Speaker 1>with you. Every interaction is important. Be a predictable and

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<v Speaker 1>consistent leader, and your people will come to you when

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<v Speaker 1>they have issues because they'll want your guidance and your support.

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<v Speaker 1>They won't just you know, be afraid of how you're going.

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<v Speaker 2>To respond to them. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>I appreciate that, and I love your kind of point

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<v Speaker 3>of like, don't be a predictable and consistent jirk. You

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<v Speaker 3>know what I'm saying, Like like that, Yeah, that those

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<v Speaker 3>can be also, you know, you can be predictable and you.

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<v Speaker 1>Can be told me to be myself. I'm just being me.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just being me, right, I'm just walking in here.

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<v Speaker 2>Tell you what to think. Don't screw it up again?

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<v Speaker 2>What's wrong with you? Right? Yeah? Truths hard truths.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, Yes, No, I I I appreciate that a lot,

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<v Speaker 3>and I think it's again, it's it's it was a

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<v Speaker 3>great you know, it's a great post by Matt. I

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<v Speaker 3>think it speaks to a lot of things that are

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<v Speaker 3>really really important when it comes to the responsibility of

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<v Speaker 3>leadership and the things that you have to take into account.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, I was having this conversation the other day

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<v Speaker 3>with leaders is like you've raised your hand to say

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<v Speaker 3>you want to be responsible for leading people. With that

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<v Speaker 3>comes a different level of obligation to the people that

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<v Speaker 3>you lead and accountability to the actions that you have,

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<v Speaker 3>Like you have to that you get that by default.

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<v Speaker 3>So like, if you don't want to be in that

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<v Speaker 3>space where you have to be really conscious of what

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<v Speaker 3>you say and do and you know, regulate your emotions

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<v Speaker 3>and be like, if you don't want that, then don't

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<v Speaker 3>be a leader of people. But you're saying you want to,

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<v Speaker 3>So like you then take these things on and you

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<v Speaker 3>have to make sure that you're conscious of them and

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<v Speaker 3>for all of us. And it's not always the extremes.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not always the I'm going to walk in the

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<v Speaker 3>room and be a jerk and shut somebody down or

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<v Speaker 3>do these types of things. It can be in the

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<v Speaker 3>small things that you do, the small comments that you make,

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<v Speaker 3>the hey, I have an idea, Hey, you know, now's not.

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<v Speaker 2>The time for ideas. We need to figure this out.

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<v Speaker 3>Even stuff like that that might come across as you're

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<v Speaker 3>trying to be more efficient with the time or move

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<v Speaker 3>a meeting forward. Those things can have a long tail

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<v Speaker 3>of impact on your team, the individuals on your team,

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<v Speaker 3>your capability to get great work done, so I think

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<v Speaker 3>it's a great topic and you know, I'm looking forward

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<v Speaker 3>to talking about this more often.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean one of the one of my most

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<v Speaker 1>favorite things that I heard somebody say once is they said,

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<v Speaker 1>it's the little things, there's nothing bigger. And you know,

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<v Speaker 1>obviously the implication is that it's the collection of those

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<v Speaker 1>little things to add up, right. You know, the you know,

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<v Speaker 1>baseball games aren't won by home runs, They're won by

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<v Speaker 1>base hits, right, because they collectively add up to far

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<v Speaker 1>more runs than the home run than the home runs do.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is this is the same thing. You can

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<v Speaker 1>have great meetings with people where you are level headed

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<v Speaker 1>and calm and cool and collected, but that's a controlled

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<v Speaker 1>environment for lack of a better word. That's a place

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<v Speaker 1>where you can put yourself on the right frame of mind.

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<v Speaker 1>If that isn't backed up by the interactions you're having

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<v Speaker 1>with people throughout the day, throughout the meetings, in the hallways,

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<v Speaker 1>at the cubicles, at the water cooler, you know, all

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<v Speaker 1>the individual little ones you have. If you don't show

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<v Speaker 1>consistency and predictability in those little interactions, then the big

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<v Speaker 1>grand gestures of the meetings will be looked at for

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<v Speaker 1>what they are, which is just you know, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>a fabrication. It's not the real you, and you still

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<v Speaker 1>won't be trustworthy. Those little interactions are just as important,

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<v Speaker 1>if not more, because of how many of them there

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<v Speaker 1>are compared to the big ones, and it's important that

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<v Speaker 1>those are the things that tell people that you're You're

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<v Speaker 1>a consistent boss, a consistent leader, and not one who

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<v Speaker 1>is unpredictable.

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, and what that resists at the end of this episode,

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<v Speaker 3>this is hocking leadership. I'm Lorenzo and I'm Chris, and

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<v Speaker 3>we'll talk to you all next time.