Speaker 1: If a four year old saw a doctor cutting open
Speaker 1: his mom with a knife, that four year old might
Speaker 1: think that the doctor was evil.
Speaker 2: But once that child.
Speaker 1: Understands that his mom has cancer and the doctor was
Speaker 1: actually performing surgery to save her life, his perception might change.
Speaker 1: This is how many believers explain the way that evil
Speaker 1: we read about in their sacred text. We don't have
Speaker 1: the full picture, okay, but wouldn't that work the other
Speaker 1: way around. Imagine the same four year old sees a
Speaker 1: nurse walks into his mom's hospital room carrying balloons and
Speaker 1: a cup of ice cream.
Speaker 2: That child, the nurse is good to that child.
Speaker 1: What he doesn't know is that the nurse is a
Speaker 1: disgruntled employee who isn't even supposed to be in the room.
Speaker 1: And while his mom is distracted by the ice cream,
Speaker 1: the nurse injects a deadly poison into her iv and
Speaker 1: suddenly the goodness that child perceived was actually a necessary
Speaker 1: step or something horrific. So if our limited human perspective
Speaker 1: means we can't look at seemingly evil actions and conclude
Speaker 1: that God is evil, how can we look at seemingly
Speaker 1: good actions and conclude that God is good for all?
Speaker 1: We know those seemingly good things could be a cosmic
Speaker 1: distraction or a necessary stepping stone towards something grand, incomprehensible
Speaker 1: disaster in the distant future. So with that being said,
Speaker 1: let's have a real discussion about the morality of your
Speaker 1: God and skip the antiques. If you're going to tell
Speaker 1: me that your God is perfectly good, loving, just, and
Speaker 1: worthy of worship, then I think I'm allowed to look
Speaker 1: at that God's behavior and ask by what moral standard.
Speaker 1: Power doesn't automatically equal goodness. Authority doesn't automatically equal morality,
Speaker 1: and worship doesn't make an action ethical. So tonight I
Speaker 1: want to talk about the morality of the God's people
Speaker 1: worship and whether we're actually judging their actions by our
Speaker 1: moral standard or simply giving them an exemption from one.
Speaker 1: If you disagree with the statement and don't believe your
Speaker 1: God is a moral monster, call in and tell us why.
Speaker 1: Or maybe you agree with us and would like to
Speaker 1: share why, call in or request up on TikTok.
Speaker 2: I'm your host, thinker.
Speaker 1: This is the atheist experience, and the show starts right now.
Speaker 2: Welcome, Welcome, everybody.
Speaker 1: That is such a beautiful audience out there.
Speaker 3: I know there's a lot of people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so excited, beautiful. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Today is today is August sixteenth, twenty twenty six, and
Speaker 1: we want to welcome all of you to the Atheist Experience.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us. I'm your host.
Speaker 1: Thinker and joining me right now is Godless Engineer.
Speaker 2: How are you doing today, guys?
Speaker 3: You know, I'm hot. It is hot out here. At
Speaker 3: least it's not human which is what it usually is
Speaker 3: in Alabama and that's where you drown just in you know,
Speaker 3: the open air. But yeah, it's hot. I've been outside,
Speaker 3: you know, talking with everybody, just enjoying the community and everything,
Speaker 3: and it's been great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is my first time in Austin, and I
Speaker 1: must say that it is a it's a beautiful city.
Speaker 2: It's not as hot as everybody told me.
Speaker 1: Like it's gonna be one hundred and twelve degrees and
Speaker 1: as soon as you get there, like you might become dehydrated.
Speaker 1: Make sure you have a fan around your neck because
Speaker 1: like all the water in your body's gonna like dry up.
Speaker 1: I was so terrified.
Speaker 3: Yeah, my wife. Luckily, I have my wife here with me,
Speaker 3: and she's been keeping water like in front of me
Speaker 3: the entire time, like, don't get to drink, don't forget
Speaker 3: to drink.
Speaker 2: That's good, that's good.
Speaker 1: I would say Austin is a very interesting place and
Speaker 1: I definitely want to come back more often. I enjoyed
Speaker 1: meeting a lot of people in the ACA community. Yesterday
Speaker 1: was the famous back cruise and we had a lot
Speaker 1: of fun.
Speaker 2: I learned a lot about bats.
Speaker 1: I learned a lot about bats, and I've been asking everybody, like,
Speaker 1: what is the obsession that Austin.
Speaker 2: Has with bats? What's the obsession? Do you know?
Speaker 3: I actually I have no idea. Sorry, I was waiting
Speaker 3: to get up there on TikTok. I don't know what
Speaker 3: the obsession with bats is, although I am a batman fan,
Speaker 3: so I mean, I don't know if maybe that's it,
Speaker 3: But definitely bats are an interesting you know, I guess
Speaker 3: a group of organisms. Maybe it stems from the Bible,
Speaker 3: where the Bible labels them as birds, do you know?
Speaker 1: I thought about that all day yesterday, Like every time
Speaker 1: I learned something new about the bats, I was thinking
Speaker 1: to myself, like, how could God get this wrong and
Speaker 1: label these.
Speaker 2: Creatures as birds?
Speaker 1: Like there's so many different types of bats, Like I did.
Speaker 1: How did Jesus get that wrong?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can only imagine that. You know, I don't
Speaker 3: have a good answer to like, if he's omniscient, he
Speaker 3: should know, but he doesn't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe a Christian will tell us. I don't know,
Speaker 1: but yeah. So we're streaming live today from the Free
Speaker 1: Thought Library in front of a live studio audience, and
Speaker 1: we want to thank you for being here, and if
Speaker 1: you weren't able to be with us today, then make
Speaker 1: sure that you set a reminder for next year to
Speaker 1: join us in Austin, because I will definitely be here.
Speaker 1: We are also try streaming today, so big shout out
Speaker 1: to our viewers on TikTok and YouTube mobile. If you're
Speaker 1: watching us on TikTok tonight and you want to talk
Speaker 1: to us, then request up to join and we'll bring
Speaker 1: you right on up on stage. And please make sure
Speaker 1: that you are at least eighteen years of age or
Speaker 1: older before doing so. The Atheist Experience is a product
Speaker 1: of the Atheist Community of Austin, a nonprofit organization dedicated
Speaker 1: to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and
Speaker 1: the separation of religion and government.
Speaker 2: This means that you can give us.
Speaker 1: A tax free donation as many as you want in fact,
Speaker 1: and know that not only is it going to a
Speaker 1: good cause, but also that it helps you too.
Speaker 2: So we are the lines are.
Speaker 1: Open if you would like to call in and explain
Speaker 1: to us why your God is not a moral monster,
Speaker 1: because I am one hundred percent convinced that, in fact
Speaker 1: he is. Give us a call at five one two
Speaker 1: nine nine two four to two, or visit ACA dot
Speaker 1: show for a slash call. So, God, lets tell me
Speaker 1: when you first started, because you were a Christian before, right,
Speaker 1: so when you first started deconstructing or moving towards atheism,
Speaker 1: was morality of the God a decision maker for you?
Speaker 3: Not at all?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, so when I was a Christian, I didn't
Speaker 3: really give too many thoughts about, like at least critical
Speaker 3: thoughts about what's in the Bible and how the Bible
Speaker 3: presents the Christian God as far as morality. It goes
Speaker 3: like really critically analyzing, uh, the God of the Bible
Speaker 3: and his morals. Because I did that thing. And it's
Speaker 3: something that I've come to notice with a lot of
Speaker 3: people out there now is that they they create a
Speaker 3: romanticized version of both God and Jesus in their heads,
Speaker 3: and they attribute their own moral foundations and their their
Speaker 3: moral uh conclusions and everything like that to that particularly
Speaker 3: romanticized figure, and so they just end up taking on
Speaker 3: whatever kind of moral you know, uh, moral conclusions or
Speaker 3: moral positions that you have, and that ends up just
Speaker 3: being kind of their position.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: So I never, I never, you know, was bigoted towards
Speaker 3: LGBTQ people, even though I had, you know, that kind
Speaker 3: of thrown in my face all the time, and it
Speaker 3: was definitely uh you know, and I guess intrinsically taught
Speaker 3: to me, or it was it was ingrained in me,
Speaker 3: uh you know, the the misogyny as well as homophobian
Speaker 3: and everything like that growing up, as you know, says
Speaker 3: hat white man in the South. That was just something
Speaker 3: that I was exposed to, and I didn't realize until
Speaker 3: later that some of those concepts were that way. But
Speaker 3: it was kind of like I was always at odds
Speaker 3: with myself because I never had a problem, but at
Speaker 3: the same time, like I'd been taught these things, So
Speaker 3: it's kind of like a little bit of cognitive dissonance
Speaker 3: there that I usually resolved with like just being a
Speaker 3: good person and just not really understanding the connection to
Speaker 3: religion that it had.
Speaker 1: Really, I can understand that I don't even remember the
Speaker 1: word morals or morality coming up in any sermon whatsoever.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't until I started deconstructing and having these
Speaker 1: types of conversations that people started actually identifying.
Speaker 2: The be good people as morals.
Speaker 1: And I find that when I talk to a lot
Speaker 1: of believers that they don't know what the knowledge of
Speaker 1: good and evil is in the garden, and they don't
Speaker 1: realize that that's talking about a moral conscience. And my
Speaker 1: biggest question is like, if your God is so moral
Speaker 1: and is so concerned.
Speaker 2: With your morality, why would.
Speaker 1: He would Why does his story start off with him
Speaker 1: commanding humanity not to gain the ability right to assess
Speaker 1: their own morality? And I think the reason for that
Speaker 1: is because the God isn't moral, and the God like
Speaker 1: wants you to anything that the God commands or does,
Speaker 1: you have to see it as good or evil if
Speaker 1: that doctrine says that it is right.
Speaker 2: So like you talk about the LGBTQI.
Speaker 1: A community, if the God of a specific religion says
Speaker 1: that being gay is immoral, then you have to adopt
Speaker 1: that because you are just a believer.
Speaker 2: There's a you know, a follower.
Speaker 1: Of the God, and you just do whatever they say,
Speaker 1: what the doctrine says, right, because you can't decide that
Speaker 1: on your own now.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that a lot of Christian out there,
Speaker 3: they don't exactly think too deeply about what the religion
Speaker 3: actually says. I think that a lot of them have
Speaker 3: been indoctrinated with a sense of divine command theory just
Speaker 3: simply that God says that it's this way. And I've
Speaker 3: heard it so many times out there where people are like, well,
Speaker 3: I'm not saying this, God is saying that it's wrong
Speaker 3: to be you know, homosexual, or God says that it's
Speaker 3: wrong to whatever position they want to want to support
Speaker 3: right there, And so they use it as a shield
Speaker 3: in order to protect themselves from accountability. And I feel like,
Speaker 3: you know, that's kind of what a lot of the
Speaker 3: moral like, some of the moral considerations of the apologetic
Speaker 3: surrounding the argument for morality for God kind of centers
Speaker 3: around is just you know, not having to take moral
Speaker 3: accountability for the shitty opinions that you hold.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's the gape goat for the God of
Speaker 1: the Bible, God of christanity typically right is that it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be held accountable because it's not a
Speaker 1: human and is not it can't be judged by our
Speaker 1: human standments. But yet we as humans have to speak
Speaker 1: for the God right standard right because you can't do
Speaker 1: that with your human brain. And it's like, well, what
Speaker 1: brain are you using? Right to like, whose brain are
Speaker 1: you using? Well, God told me this, you were able
Speaker 1: to access a God's brain. And this is the biggest
Speaker 1: issue that I have when if when people say that
Speaker 1: God is a creator of life, therefore God is has
Speaker 1: all right and soleign power to take life, and they
Speaker 1: give that reason for a God commanding humans to go
Speaker 1: into another land and slaughter those humans, and they say, well,
Speaker 1: God has a right to do that.
Speaker 2: Then to me, that proposes a problem for.
Speaker 1: Morality as a whole when it comes to humanity, right,
Speaker 1: then it makes morality random. Any person could say, well,
Speaker 1: God talked to me and told me to execute divine
Speaker 1: judgment on these this group of people because they're not
Speaker 1: living the way God says live, And then that person
Speaker 1: is then.
Speaker 2: Held liable by the law in our world, the.
Speaker 1: Human world, And a judge says, well, you don't have
Speaker 1: a way to prove that God told you to do that, right,
Speaker 1: You have no way of showing any evidence that God
Speaker 1: told you to execute divine justice. But we're supposed to
Speaker 1: accept that same reason when we're discussing Samuel telling Saul
Speaker 1: that God told him to execute judgment. It doesn't hold
Speaker 1: up in our world, why should it hold up in
Speaker 1: the world of the belief right? You see what I'm saying.
Speaker 3: It looks like we do have somebody in the guest
Speaker 3: request over there on the TikTok that we can pull
Speaker 3: up real quick. They may be a friendly though.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, let's see.
Speaker 1: Flowy, Yeah, we got you are.
Speaker 3: I didn't mean to come up.
Speaker 2: It's okay, friendly, Sorry, no worries. We'll take you to
Speaker 2: have a good one.
Speaker 1: Okay, thanks, all right, all right, she said, oh no,
Speaker 1: but but yeah.
Speaker 3: Uh so. You know, one thing that I find with
Speaker 3: the whole uh moral argument is that they always want
Speaker 3: to portray it as having like some kind of objective
Speaker 3: moral standard, right, just because they're appealing to God's standard
Speaker 3: or something like that. But what I find is that
Speaker 3: by them trying to appeal to God's standard, it really
Speaker 3: causes them to deviate away from any kind of like
Speaker 3: human centered standard. You fail to, you know, take into
Speaker 3: account how your moral actions or your moral conclusions affect
Speaker 3: your fellow man, and instead you're just doing things to
Speaker 3: appease the wizard in the sky that you know, you
Speaker 3: think is going to punish you if you don't follow
Speaker 3: his rules, which I mean, honestly, I prefer to go
Speaker 3: the harder route of, you know, making the determination about
Speaker 3: how my actions affect other people, not whether or not
Speaker 3: some magical Merlin and magical Merlin's oxymoron, you know, the
Speaker 3: masterful Merlin that exists in the sky.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 3: I feel like focusing on what appeases that particular figure
Speaker 3: just is an easy way to dehumanize people in your
Speaker 3: community as well as just in general.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think that's the only time that a
Speaker 1: lot of believers do it right. They don't expect that
Speaker 1: same type of standard when it has to do with
Speaker 1: their own actions, but when they're wanting to dictate the
Speaker 1: way another person lives, right, I don't think believers go
Speaker 1: around thinking that is okay for another person to get
Speaker 1: a command from a god that says, kick your child
Speaker 1: out the house, or you know, go and murder you know,
Speaker 1: these group of people because they're different and they're not
Speaker 1: living according to which is why I say a lot
Speaker 1: of I would love to talk to a believer that
Speaker 1: can help me understand why we should see divine command
Speaker 1: theory as acceptable when we're talking about these stories in
Speaker 1: their sacred text, and why it's not why they know
Speaker 1: it's not acceptable and our reality right in our objective reality, right,
Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, I do.
Speaker 3: Think that we got a question from the audience, so
Speaker 3: can we go to that question?
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, all right, all right.
Speaker 6: First of all, welcome to Austin. I hope you all
Speaker 6: enjoying your say. So, I was wondering, regardless of God's
Speaker 6: actual character, do you think religion is a useful tool
Speaker 6: in any case for getting people who would otherwise be
Speaker 6: unvirtuous or wicked even to sort of be more moral
Speaker 6: because the God said so at fear of divine punishment.
Speaker 1: I think it has done that, you know, no more
Speaker 1: than jail has, you know, stopped people from committing crimes
Speaker 1: because they don't want to lose their freedom. Religion has
Speaker 1: definitely been able been used to shape different behaviors in
Speaker 1: society as humanity grew and learn how to live in communities.
Speaker 1: Whether or not it's still a needed tool for the
Speaker 1: majority of humanity, I don't think so. But I do
Speaker 1: think that unfortunately, some adults are immature and still need
Speaker 1: that parent or that that ruler to keep them from
Speaker 1: harming another person. But I think if anything, one our
Speaker 1: criminal justice system, if we focus more on rehabilitating people
Speaker 1: who have those desires, rehabilitating their their thoughts and their ideas,
Speaker 1: and then also therapy pushing more so, like getting to
Speaker 1: the root of why a person wants to, you know,
Speaker 1: cause another person harm and and for some of those
Speaker 1: people you may have to keep them separate from uh
Speaker 1: other people. But I do think that religion has served
Speaker 1: its purpose in that in that area, But I don't
Speaker 1: think it's necessary to keep going now.
Speaker 3: I I think that anything that can be accomplished by
Speaker 3: you know, using religion in order to affect that is
Speaker 3: going to be better accomplished by, you know, taking a
Speaker 3: more either secular humanist route or just humans route in general.
Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be secular necessarily. It can be
Speaker 3: sort of a theistic sort of humanism. But I think
Speaker 3: that humanism, I would think, would be a better route
Speaker 3: to go. I mean, sure, that there are there are
Speaker 3: people out there with certain you know, I guess mental
Speaker 3: illnesses might be the better or the accurate way to
Speaker 3: represent that that, you know, whether psychopaths or sociopaths or
Speaker 3: however that's classified now. I think that you could still
Speaker 3: appeal to them using humanism as a sort of a
Speaker 3: rigid rule set, as opposed to having to threaten them with,
Speaker 3: you know, either eternal damnation or use religion in some
Speaker 3: kind of subversive way. I think that the more honest
Speaker 3: that you can be about something, the better off somebody
Speaker 3: is going to be.
Speaker 1: I think really like in today's world that is it
Speaker 1: really the fear of hell that's stopping people from harming
Speaker 1: another person? Or is it just that they're saying right
Speaker 1: that it is because at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: like I said, a person can say all day God
Speaker 1: told me to go over there and kill this person.
Speaker 1: They know they're gonna have to face the judges, right
Speaker 1: the law of the land, and regardless of what Jesus
Speaker 1: Joseph Jarra told you.
Speaker 2: The law is going to you know, lock you up.
Speaker 1: If you know you go to trial, God isn't going
Speaker 1: to be able to get you out of that. And
Speaker 1: so I think like people can make the claim that
Speaker 1: religion has you know, stopped them from committing a violent crime,
Speaker 1: but in reality, like I think, we have justice, criminal
Speaker 1: justice systems and laws established that are probably a lot
Speaker 1: more powerful and convincing people not to do dumb shit.
Speaker 3: So, uh, you know, I guess that kind of that
Speaker 3: made me think of the whole idea of atheists just
Speaker 3: want to sin, Like they always make it out to
Speaker 3: be like atheists or atheists because they want to sin.
Speaker 3: They don't want to be held to any kind of
Speaker 3: standard by God or anything like that. And I find
Speaker 3: that that's such a bullshit thing to say about atheists,
Speaker 3: especially when you consider how many Christians out there freely
Speaker 3: sin perfectly fine and they just ask for forgiveness.
Speaker 1: Have you ever asked them, like, what sin can I
Speaker 1: commit as an atheist that you can't commit as a Christian?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And what do they say?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, They're always obviously they're going to be like, well, no,
Speaker 3: we've all sinned and fallen short in the glory of God.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: They can never point out any specific sin that is,
Speaker 3: you know, something that they want to do, unless they
Speaker 3: can be misogynistic or homophobic, either one of those two things.
Speaker 3: They'll act like, oh, it's because you know, you want
Speaker 3: to be gay or you want to support the LGBTQ
Speaker 3: community or something like that. Like they always want to
Speaker 3: paint it as one of those you know, sort of
Speaker 3: like a signpost sort of you know issue.
Speaker 1: That's just them saying, my sin is not like your
Speaker 1: sin is bigger than mine. That's all I ever hear
Speaker 1: when they say stuff like that. And I always take
Speaker 1: them to Proverbs six sixteen through nineteen, where it literally
Speaker 1: says that it lists the seven things that are an abomination.
Speaker 1: It includes lying, like, it includes committing adultriy. So like,
Speaker 1: I always take them to that and I ask like,
Speaker 1: why is your abomination less than this abomination? And so
Speaker 1: like they there is no sin that an atheist would
Speaker 1: need to not worship their God or believe in their
Speaker 1: God to commit that they can't commit, so it doesn't
Speaker 1: make any logical sense. Y.
Speaker 3: I typically will come back and I'll ask them, like,
Speaker 3: you know, basically, is there any sin that's too grave
Speaker 3: other than of course offending the Holy Spirit? Is there
Speaker 3: any sin that is too great for Jesus to forgive?
Speaker 3: And you know, obviously they're like, no, there's not there's
Speaker 3: not any kind of sin that's that's too great. You know,
Speaker 3: all sin can be forgiven. And so it always confuses
Speaker 3: me because it's like, Okay, well, if any sin can
Speaker 3: be forgiven besides the one that I've already definitely committed,
Speaker 3: then it seems like that's not the motivation, Like how
Speaker 3: can that be the motivating factor?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just not. It doesn't make any sense, And
Speaker 1: I don't see a reason for. Like, what I don't
Speaker 1: understand is what is making them agree with the moral
Speaker 1: issues of the God in the Bible, Like what's making
Speaker 1: a person say God has a right to kill if
Speaker 1: he wants to, or God has a right to say
Speaker 1: he's impartial but actually be partially if he wants to right.
Speaker 1: And I think it's because a lot of believers don't
Speaker 1: really know what morality is. And I don't think that
Speaker 1: they actually it's almost like they have a ready made
Speaker 1: package of morality and they don't have to build their
Speaker 1: more framework themselves. Their pastors build the moral framework for
Speaker 1: them and tell them this is right, this is wrong,
Speaker 1: you do this, you do that, and they are.
Speaker 2: Comfortable with that. They don't want to do the hard work.
Speaker 3: I think no I really don't think that they do
Speaker 3: want to do the hard work. And I mean I
Speaker 3: think that it's just because it's easier just to you know,
Speaker 3: blame God essentially, like just say, oh, well God says this,
Speaker 3: therefore that's bad, you know, kind of thing like it.
Speaker 3: To me, it always comes across as just generally lazy,
Speaker 3: like lazy thinking, not necessarily that they can't do it.
Speaker 3: But some people, and I've been you know, I've succumbed
Speaker 3: to this too, is just you know, falling into lazy thinking,
Speaker 3: just allowing somebody else to do the thinking for me.
Speaker 3: And I think that that's really easy to fall into,
Speaker 3: just allowing somebody else to tell you what to do,
Speaker 3: what to think, what to say. But you know, as
Speaker 3: part of my deconstruction, I decided that I was not
Speaker 3: going to allow that. Like again, like I fell into
Speaker 3: lazy thinking. I just believed what I was told. I
Speaker 3: you know, believed everything that I was told to believe.
Speaker 3: And so when I came out of that, I was like, well,
Speaker 3: I'm not going to just fall into that anymore. I'm
Speaker 3: actually going to critically, you know, consider what I believe,
Speaker 3: why I believe it, have good reasons for believing in
Speaker 3: the things that I do.
Speaker 1: I think too, because they believe that they can go
Speaker 1: and get forgiveness.
Speaker 7: Right.
Speaker 1: And so if this thing is allowing you to do
Speaker 1: harmful or bad things and still be seen or claim
Speaker 1: to be good, right, and this same thing that is
Speaker 1: supposed to be good does things that are seemingly not good,
Speaker 1: but because of the authority of it, you can say, Nope,
Speaker 1: that's good because God did it. This is the same
Speaker 1: entity that you can go to when you do harmful
Speaker 1: things and ask the God to forgive you, right, and
Speaker 1: you get forgiveness.
Speaker 2: That why not defend it?
Speaker 8: Right?
Speaker 1: It's the thing that's making you look good despite the
Speaker 1: harm that you do, despite the bad that you do.
Speaker 1: And so I think a lot of them defend that
Speaker 1: because that's the benefit that they get from it.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: There's a prompt that I run on my show that says,
Speaker 1: Jesus's unlimited sin, unlimited forgiveness, abundant grace contract is bad
Speaker 1: for humanity. And they always come up and they go,
Speaker 1: it's not unlimited sin. And I say, I say, oh,
Speaker 1: is it unlimited forgiveness?
Speaker 2: And they'll go yep.
Speaker 1: I'm like, Oh, if it's unlimited forgiveness, then there's an
Speaker 1: opportunity for unlimited sin.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't understand if there's not unlimited If there
Speaker 3: is unlimited forgiveness, then there how can there be not
Speaker 3: be limited sin? Like, it doesn't make it an kind
Speaker 3: of sense because if there's a limited forgiveness, then automatically
Speaker 3: you've got it doesn't matter how many sins you commit,
Speaker 3: you know exactly.
Speaker 1: And so they typically get mad at me and start
Speaker 1: cussing me out because they've never thought about the fact
Speaker 1: that they've signed up for this agreement that says, hey,
Speaker 1: here's a blank check no matter what sin you commit,
Speaker 1: how many unless you talk about me. This is the
Speaker 1: thing that makes me say that the God of the
Speaker 1: Bible is just immoral, because Jesus says, hey, no matter
Speaker 1: what you do to a human I'm going to forgive you,
Speaker 1: but you better not talk about my ghost like that.
Speaker 2: I ain't gonna forgive you. Right.
Speaker 1: So he's like, here's a blank check for whatever you
Speaker 1: do to any human being, whatever you do to yourself,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to forgive you. And they have not
Speaker 1: realized that that's the contract that they're in.
Speaker 2: Most of them don't know that they're in a contract, right,
Speaker 2: They think.
Speaker 1: Covenant is like a spiritual word or something, but like
Speaker 1: most of them don't know that they're in an agreement
Speaker 1: that says I will I will forgive you for whatever
Speaker 1: whatever sin.
Speaker 2: You can come to me repent.
Speaker 1: And they say, well, you're supposed to turn from your ways.
Speaker 1: You're supposed to, But is there a requirement that says
Speaker 1: that if you don't, you can't get forgiveness.
Speaker 3: Again, No, I mean there's really not. I mean, well,
Speaker 3: I do know that that some people have come back
Speaker 3: at me and been like, well, repentance requires real repent,
Speaker 3: like God knows in your heart, so like if you
Speaker 3: keep committing the same sin, then He's going to stop
Speaker 3: forgiving you. But I mean again that that just ends
Speaker 3: up being very confusing with the supposed like mercifulness of
Speaker 3: God and Jesus and everything. And I find that you
Speaker 3: get into a lot of different ways that you can pretzel,
Speaker 3: you know, in those particular concepts. I do want to
Speaker 3: remind people out there that if you're watching on YouTube,
Speaker 3: either on the vertical stream or the horizontal stream, you
Speaker 3: can call in by dialing five one two nine one one,
Speaker 3: I'm too for two or hitting up that link over there.
Speaker 3: I think it's a c A dot show forward slash
Speaker 3: call AXP or call it's just call sorry, just call.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 3: You can hit up those links and you'll be able
Speaker 3: to call and talk to us if you disagree with
Speaker 3: anything that we're talking about here today, like God being
Speaker 3: a moral monster. Now thinker, I'm kind of curious, what
Speaker 3: do you think is like one of the biggest things
Speaker 3: in God's came in and slash Jesus. I've been I've
Speaker 3: been trying to affix Jesus to these rather shitty things here,
Speaker 3: like yeah, yeah, same here. But Christians tend to take
Speaker 3: high offense to labeling. Are saddling Jesus with the atrocities
Speaker 3: of God in the Old Testament, And I'm just kind
Speaker 3: of curious, what's the what's the the moral monstery kind
Speaker 3: of thing that that Jesus slash God is commanded or done?
Speaker 2: Well? One he called a canaanie woman a dog, right.
Speaker 3: That's the one I like to bring up the most
Speaker 3: because because you could easily frame it to where they
Speaker 3: immediately take offense. It's like, oh, yeah, Jesus is so great.
Speaker 3: Why did he call a woman a bitch and make
Speaker 3: her beg right? It's like, oh, Jesus didn't do that.
Speaker 3: It's like, oh, do you want to read the scripture?
Speaker 2: Say she was a puppy. It was a puppy. It's
Speaker 2: like he called her his pet.
Speaker 1: But also the stealing of the donkey, right, they a
Speaker 1: lot of believers will say, well, everything belongs to God.
Speaker 2: He stole a.
Speaker 1: Donkey, and he taught his He taught his disciples how
Speaker 1: to appeal to authority to steal somebody else's shit, right,
Speaker 1: because he's like, hey, say these words, like if somebody
Speaker 1: asks you what you're doing, just say these words, like
Speaker 1: the lord needs it. Like he's appealing to the word lord.
Speaker 1: Like anybody could have been a lord at that time.
Speaker 1: You have the landlords, you had the Roman centurions, you
Speaker 1: had the.
Speaker 2: Roman Empress. Like he just says, say these words.
Speaker 1: He was being slick and manipulative, put it to authorities
Speaker 1: to take somebody else's shit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he taught them how to do that.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean, and and you know that's going to be
Speaker 3: labeled as something that's good. You got to agree that
Speaker 3: that stealing teachings, especially teaching somebody to steal another person shit, Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's good.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And I always like to juxtapose that against like it's like, well,
Speaker 3: I using secular humanism or you know, just humanism in general.
Speaker 3: I can explain to you why that's bad or detrimental,
Speaker 3: you know, but can you do the same, Like and
Speaker 3: I find that Christians, they they try to justify it,
Speaker 3: but then you there's all It's kind of like there's
Speaker 3: always a Bible verse. There's always a Bible verse that
Speaker 3: you can break out, like with the donkey or with
Speaker 3: any other atrocity in the Old Testament. You can always
Speaker 3: break it out, and you can always be like, well,
Speaker 3: he did it here, so you know, why not why
Speaker 3: not there? Or why not now?
Speaker 2: Yeah, like a lot of them don't know. Oh, we
Speaker 2: haven't had the question.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we got a question from the audience. So let's
Speaker 3: cube up over there at the audience. What's up?
Speaker 9: Yeah, Hey, how's it going. You know, a lot of
Speaker 9: what we talk about with with god moral monster and
Speaker 9: like a more personal level can lead towards like, maybe
Speaker 9: that's not a God. I want to believe in an atheism,
Speaker 9: And then you start seeing it in terms of turning
Speaker 9: into like more of an anti theist when you see
Speaker 9: how that moral monster gets into systems institutions and such.
Speaker 9: And I was having some conversations with someone at the
Speaker 9: bat Crees yesterday about being anti theist or kind of
Speaker 9: the problems of bringing God into all these institutions and systems.
Speaker 9: And I could agree with all the problems, all the
Speaker 9: moral failings, but I come from a very large family.
Speaker 9: I have very good relations in my family. Most of
Speaker 9: them are really good except this thing, and they really
Speaker 9: are promoting this and pushing it, and I had this
Speaker 9: internal wall that comes up, and I'm like, I want
Speaker 9: to be anti theist.
Speaker 3: I want to have a problem with so I wanted
Speaker 3: not support it. Oh crap.
Speaker 9: That means I now have a big conflict with my
Speaker 9: family and I don't know what to do with that,
Speaker 9: and I kind of like get halted by it. So
Speaker 9: it's like, I don't know, I'm just kind of like
Speaker 9: relating to that. I can agree with everything here, but
Speaker 9: I'm like, ah, crap, Like what do I do with
Speaker 9: that when I don't necessarily want to cut off my
Speaker 9: family because of it. I just wanted to see if
Speaker 9: you gotta had any thoughts on that.
Speaker 3: Well, I guess how how egregious is it? Because like
Speaker 3: it Kim like there's a there's a difference in like
Speaker 3: just maybe a more minor moral issue that could come up,
Speaker 3: or there's like, hey, trans people should die. Like there's
Speaker 3: like a varying degrees there. I guess, So is which
Speaker 3: end of the spectrum is that on? More on the
Speaker 3: other end? Oh okay, all right, yeah, well I mean
Speaker 3: for me at least? Uh, Well, I actually think or
Speaker 3: what do you what do you think?
Speaker 4: First? Sorry?
Speaker 2: Far go ahead as far as what to do, well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess what? Uh and correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 3: But I think it's like, how do you breach a
Speaker 3: conversation or approach family members that are holding those very
Speaker 3: detrimental moral positions without you know, completely cutting off that family, Like,
Speaker 3: how can you find some kind of way to I guess,
Speaker 3: you know, I guess draw a peaceful line in the sand,
Speaker 3: or approach them in a way that you can hope
Speaker 3: to affect change.
Speaker 1: So I caution giving advice in that way because everybody's
Speaker 1: family is different.
Speaker 3: And then.
Speaker 1: How you set boundaries in the way you are willing
Speaker 1: to enforce those boundaries is different. Because I have had
Speaker 1: to cut family off, and we've blocked each other for months,
Speaker 1: two years even, and everybody isn't willing to do that, right,
Speaker 1: And so it really depends on you, and if you're
Speaker 1: a but to set boundaries with your family and explain
Speaker 1: to them that you don't agree with a specific belief
Speaker 1: that they hold and how they treat a specific group
Speaker 1: of people, and if they want to be around you,
Speaker 1: then they cannot be saying the things that they say.
Speaker 1: They cannot be mistreating people. And if they don't stop
Speaker 1: doing it, then you have to be the one to
Speaker 1: enforce that boundary and actually remove yourself because you can
Speaker 1: state it. And the more you allow them to say
Speaker 1: it to be around you and doing it, then they're
Speaker 1: not gonna stop it. They're not gonna take that, take
Speaker 1: it serious.
Speaker 2: And I'm not.
Speaker 1: Anti theists, like I don't really give a fuck of
Speaker 1: a person believes in a god or not.
Speaker 2: I care more what they believe the God is saying
Speaker 2: to them, and.
Speaker 1: You know, the morality, right, like the belief sysm that
Speaker 1: they hold and how they treat humans and how it
Speaker 1: affects our objective reality. I think a person, if a
Speaker 1: person doesn't believe in a god, that to yourself and
Speaker 1: stop trying to force me to.
Speaker 2: Accept it as my truth.
Speaker 1: I mean it would be good if everybody started believing
Speaker 1: in things that are true and you know, focus on that.
Speaker 1: But I'm not necessarily anti theist. I don't think I've
Speaker 1: gotten there yet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean I would consider myself to be
Speaker 3: an anti theist, but that also doesn't preclude me from
Speaker 3: like working with religious people or being nice to religious people.
Speaker 3: I think that it really depends on what the issue
Speaker 3: is and where your personal line is. I definitely think
Speaker 3: that you should, you know, have a boundary and make
Speaker 3: that boundary clearly known about, you know, certain issues. If
Speaker 3: it's something that is very personal to you or very
Speaker 3: important to you, you know, make that decision for yourself
Speaker 3: if you want to really broach that. But I would
Speaker 3: also ask, like some if they are holding those particular
Speaker 3: positions that are so detrimental or you find that they
Speaker 3: are very detrimental, do you. I guess, in my opinion,
Speaker 3: I personally don't want to interact with those individuals, even
Speaker 3: if they are part of my family. But I know
Speaker 3: that that's you know, very personal to me. It's you know,
Speaker 3: I'm not going to tell you not to interact with
Speaker 3: them or whatnot. You could be on the inside track
Speaker 3: of those things. And be able to change their mind
Speaker 3: about stuff. There have been certain issues that I've encountered
Speaker 3: in my life where I've been able to change people's
Speaker 3: minds about stuff, and that's through a careful conversation. I
Speaker 3: would definitely suggest watching some street epistemology or learning from
Speaker 3: some street epistemological methods there for you know, broaching those
Speaker 3: kinds of conversations, because they have this uncanny ability to
Speaker 3: have those difficult conversations without really you know, causing those
Speaker 3: kinds of riffs. So it is possible if you want
Speaker 3: to try to change them, but it's also okay if
Speaker 3: you want to cut them out. But again, like Thinker said,
Speaker 3: I mean, that's you know something You've got to make yourself,
Speaker 3: a decision that you got to make for yourself. You
Speaker 3: got to decide what your boundaries are. But once you
Speaker 3: figure out what those boundaries are, I would highly suggest
Speaker 3: you sticking to your boundaries and having enough self respect
Speaker 3: for yourself to stick to those boundaries.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think guys, we still have folk lines open.
Speaker 1: This is kind of interesting that, Like when I talk
Speaker 1: about how when my daughter came out to me and
Speaker 1: my family wanted to talk to her, and I had
Speaker 1: to say no, like, she's my daughter. I want to
Speaker 1: make sure that you know, there's nothing put into her
Speaker 1: mind that's going to make her hate herself.
Speaker 2: And I had to set that boundary.
Speaker 1: But like there's my family is accepting now where they
Speaker 1: used to be very you know, believing that homosexuality was
Speaker 1: a sin and you know, condemning it every chance they got.
Speaker 2: But we have several people in our family who are
Speaker 2: the LGBT.
Speaker 1: Community and the treatment that they would have gotten years ago,
Speaker 1: the family is except accepting of them.
Speaker 2: And they're not trying to like.
Speaker 1: Call them every day and say, you know, you're going
Speaker 1: to hell if you don't. You know, it's hey, how
Speaker 1: is your day? And you know, we love their their spouses,
Speaker 1: they've had children, and it's like John said, being the
Speaker 1: change that they get to see, if that makes sense,
Speaker 1: Like your difference is gonna it's gonna be what makes
Speaker 1: a difference.
Speaker 2: So yeah, allowing yourself to be different so that they
Speaker 2: can see it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just to a reminder for everybody, we do have
Speaker 3: open lines. Like like like Thinker said, the number is
Speaker 3: five one two nine nine to one nine two four two,
Speaker 3: or you can hit up the ACA Dot Show for
Speaker 3: a slash call if you want to call in and
Speaker 3: interact with us on whether or not you think God
Speaker 3: is a moral monster. If you're over there on TikTok,
Speaker 3: you can request up easily if you would like to
Speaker 3: talk with us about why your God is not a
Speaker 3: moral monster or why you think that maybe you have
Speaker 3: a definition of God that you know, escapes those criticisms
Speaker 3: that we've been talking about today. But it looks like
Speaker 3: we do have another audience question out there. What's up
Speaker 3: out their audience?
Speaker 5: Hi, how's it going. I think you guys really hit
Speaker 5: the nail on the head earlier when you were talking about,
Speaker 5: you know, what happens when God commands you know, these
Speaker 5: ancient people to go into Ad and kill all the
Speaker 5: people there. And how do Christians today look at that,
Speaker 5: Like what type of you know, mental gymnastics do they
Speaker 5: have to do to say, Okay, that was cool because
Speaker 5: God said so. And they kind of say and you,
Speaker 5: like you said, they come up with this idea like, well,
Speaker 5: God created us, so he has the right to take
Speaker 5: us out of this world. And I feel like there's
Speaker 5: so many things in the Bible, like as in you know,
Speaker 5: we're born, we can do about it and where requires
Speaker 5: how vintion and like that's like, no matter what we're
Speaker 5: going to send, we can't not sin. And that's like
Speaker 5: a biblical principle. I'm like, well, that's like kind of unfare.
Speaker 5: We don't have a chance. And then if you ask
Speaker 5: them to think about it, they don't really have a
Speaker 5: good answer. And I was always told as a Christian,
Speaker 5: like Isaiah fifty five eight and nine, like God's ways
Speaker 5: are higher than our ways. We can't understand that, And
Speaker 5: that's the principle they really anchor in on. And I'm
Speaker 5: just asking. I'm like, I hope at the end of
Speaker 5: the day, Christians have to like admit nothing about what
Speaker 5: they say makes sense to them. They have to always say, well,
Speaker 5: God said it. I can't reasonably understand why, but God does,
Speaker 5: so that I'm going to shut my brain off and
Speaker 5: then accept that. And I'm just like, you just have
Speaker 5: to check your brain to be at that point. You know,
Speaker 5: I don't know if you guys what you thought of that.
Speaker 1: So yeah, definitely, there's another prompt that I'm running on
Speaker 1: my channel.
Speaker 2: What do believers have against thinking?
Speaker 1: And that's it right there, right Like they're afraid that
Speaker 1: they're going to thank themselves out of faith by like
Speaker 1: logically thinking about these more dilemmas. Today, I had a
Speaker 1: conversation with a believer, loudmouthflow girl, but she like literally
Speaker 1: we were talking about whether or not the God of
Speaker 1: the Bible is deceptive and like he literally says in
Speaker 1: Ezekiel fourteen nine, if a prophet is deceived, and like,
Speaker 1: you can just imagine him holding in his hand of
Speaker 1: I the Lord have deceived that prophet, like he's making
Speaker 1: a declaration.
Speaker 2: It was me, if this prophet speaks a deceiving word,
Speaker 2: I did it.
Speaker 1: And she fought tooth and nail to not accept that
Speaker 1: it was you know, her God, admitting that he was
Speaker 1: and can be deceptive, that he can give a false
Speaker 1: prophecy intentionally.
Speaker 2: She wanted to focus on the.
Speaker 1: Why, and mind you, before we before she started focus
Speaker 1: on the why, I warned her. I said, hey, I
Speaker 1: have these conversations for three years now. Believers typically try
Speaker 1: to focus on the why and not the what. And
Speaker 1: I said, remember what we're investigating right now is the what,
Speaker 1: and the what is can God lie?
Speaker 2: And she said, I know, I'm not like all those
Speaker 2: other Christians. They're ignorant.
Speaker 1: I'm not and then when she gets to the logical
Speaker 1: and tellment that the God can lie and does, she
Speaker 1: crashes out and she just focuses on it's judgment.
Speaker 2: She went as far as even changing the meaning of
Speaker 2: the word answer.
Speaker 1: When he says I will answer them myself, the answer
Speaker 1: no longer meant speak and meant judge, Like she changed
Speaker 1: the definition of what the word means. And it's because
Speaker 1: they are afraid that they're going to thank themselves out
Speaker 1: of a God.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And I think the thing that you're really honing in
Speaker 3: on there is cognitive dissonance and how cognitive dissonance is
Speaker 3: resolved in a person, because I feel like when people
Speaker 3: encounter those things that are, you know, counter to what
Speaker 3: they understand and know, like God is good, you know
Speaker 3: that simple statement. If they encounter some thing in the
Speaker 3: Old Testament that seems to be counter to that, like
Speaker 3: Exodus twenty one seven, where the father can sell his
Speaker 3: daughter into sexual slavery to another man or the man's
Speaker 3: son or whatever, you know, that's obviously going to cause
Speaker 3: some kind of issue with a believer who thinks that
Speaker 3: God is good all the time, and all the time,
Speaker 3: God is good, and they're typically what I've noticed is
Speaker 3: that they will go to just tossing out the information
Speaker 3: that's contradictory to what they know that God is good,
Speaker 3: and they rely on what they've been indoctrinated into, and
Speaker 3: that's essentially, well, you know, it's God, So you can't
Speaker 3: criticize God like I'm just a lowly human and what's
Speaker 3: my criticism. I don't have anything to stand. Kind of
Speaker 3: goes back to the whole moral argument about well, you
Speaker 3: don't really have a standard just to ground your moral
Speaker 3: judgments on right, like you don't. You can't really say that,
Speaker 3: so like you can't say that sexual sexual trafficking little
Speaker 3: girls in number thirty one eighteen is a bad thing.
Speaker 3: You can't say that. But obviously we can ground that
Speaker 3: in various ways as atheists. But what I think is
Speaker 3: a stark contrast is that they actually can't ground that
Speaker 3: as being bad like you can't. They can't coherently argue
Speaker 3: that that's a bad thing to do as long as
Speaker 3: with a caveat, you know, as long as God says
Speaker 3: to do it, then.
Speaker 2: It's And that's what I was saying in the opening.
Speaker 1: If we can't ground in our morals and say that
Speaker 1: it's bad for the God to tell them to sex
Speaker 1: traffic children. Then likewise they can't ground it in goodness?
Speaker 1: Right if because we are humans and our cognitive abilities
Speaker 1: are limited, right in, our understanding is limited because not
Speaker 1: a god. Neither can we then say that we understand
Speaker 1: him enough to say that he's good?
Speaker 10: Right?
Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense. By what grounds are they able
Speaker 1: to say that the that the God is good?
Speaker 3: Oh well, I mean God told us himself that he's like,
Speaker 3: I am good. Don't worry about it. I am good,
Speaker 3: I promise you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's what I would love for them to.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I think they tend to get scared
Speaker 1: of my ass when I whenever I feel like I
Speaker 1: feel like there's some religious guy that usually talks loud
Speaker 1: in my comments, sitting there watching and going I'm gonna,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I mean, I mean, I can't I can't
Speaker 3: understand how you be intimidating. No, no, no, I mean
Speaker 3: I've seen your lives, and I mean I think that, uh,
Speaker 3: you know, if somebody comes up with a whole bunch
Speaker 3: of bullshit and they're trying to spend that bullshit in
Speaker 3: your direction. I mean, you're sure to put him in
Speaker 3: their place, so, I mean, and I'm sure that they're
Speaker 3: like I would do it, but I don't feel like
Speaker 3: having my ass handed to me today.
Speaker 1: No, But seriously, that's the biggest question that I have, Like,
Speaker 1: I have a lot of questions surrounding the belief system,
Speaker 1: and when it comes to morality, I understand why they're
Speaker 1: demoralizing themselves and defending the God because they believe that
Speaker 1: they are, you know, just puny humans with no say
Speaker 1: on the decisions that the God makes. I don't understand
Speaker 1: why they ignore the human being giving the command while
Speaker 1: they say divine command theory.
Speaker 2: I don't understand that.
Speaker 1: And then I don't understand how they feel that they
Speaker 1: can then say that that it's good what the God
Speaker 1: does if they feel like because they're humans, they can't
Speaker 1: say that's bad.
Speaker 2: Like why does it only work one way? But I
Speaker 2: don't think I'll ever get that, No, I mean.
Speaker 3: I feel like a lot of things will never be
Speaker 3: answerable other than just the you know, the the claims
Speaker 3: of the tautologies that they throw, you know, in that direction,
Speaker 3: hoping to you know, be sufficient answers, just like you know,
Speaker 3: just the claim that God is good, and then that's
Speaker 3: it seems like that's where they start from. Instead of
Speaker 3: like actually critically analyzing whatever kind of moral u situation
Speaker 3: coming to any kind of moral decision, they don't. They
Speaker 3: don't actually analyze the moral conundrum that's at their at
Speaker 3: their hand, at their fingertips. That what they do is
Speaker 3: they start with, well, God is good. What did God
Speaker 3: say to do? Oh he said to stab little kids
Speaker 3: in the face and to slice their throats. Okay, well,
Speaker 3: then I guess that's good. And then they start with
Speaker 3: the apologetics. I mean, you've got people like William Lane
Speaker 3: Craig who, for ten plus years, I mean, it seems
Speaker 3: to be part of his fundamental, like a fundamental part
Speaker 3: of his position that it's good to kill pagan babies
Speaker 3: because they'll at least go to heaven because they're not
Speaker 3: raised up into a pagan society, just not even considering
Speaker 3: the fact that like, like even a slightly better plan
Speaker 3: in this situation would be to, oh, well, you can,
Speaker 3: you know, go to war with them and capture people,
Speaker 3: capture the kids, and then raise the kids in your
Speaker 3: own society, right, I mean, kids that young, they're not
Speaker 3: gonna remember shit, and so like that is like that's
Speaker 3: still a horrible solution, but at least you're not, you know,
Speaker 3: having the Israelites like slaughter children.
Speaker 4: We see.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of them are just like they
Speaker 1: accept they watch these YouTube videos, right, accept these apologetics,
Speaker 1: and they don't they stop thinking. They don't think any
Speaker 1: further than that, right, because when they say, oh, William
Speaker 1: Lane Greg said it's okay to kill Pagan babies because
Speaker 1: they're going to go to heaven, and then you say, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: that's the moral standards you hope, So then likely today
Speaker 1: you're saying it's okay to kill Muslim babies because they're
Speaker 1: going to go to heaven or and then oh uh,
Speaker 1: it was okay for what the early Christians did when
Speaker 1: they went onto the continent of America and enslaved people
Speaker 1: and killed babies because they were paying, downgraded them to
Speaker 1: savages because they were paying.
Speaker 2: So then you were saying that you agree with all that.
Speaker 2: Then they go, no, that was wrong, that wasn't true Christianity.
Speaker 2: Wait wait, you just said that it was right. Like
Speaker 2: they don't think any further.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we do get a question from the crowd, but
Speaker 3: I do want to remind people that we have full
Speaker 3: lines open. So if you want to call in the
Speaker 3: numbers five one two nine nine two two, or you
Speaker 3: can hit up in your your in your in your
Speaker 3: in your browser there ACA dot show Ford slash call.
Speaker 3: You'll be able to talk to us if you're over
Speaker 3: there on TikTok request up. We've been talking a whole
Speaker 3: bunch of mad shit about your God. I'm sure that
Speaker 3: you're pretty steamy in there in the chat there. Instead
Speaker 3: of being a keyboard warrior, request up and actually directly
Speaker 3: talked to us. So, uh, we got a question from
Speaker 3: the crowd. What's up there?
Speaker 2: Crowd?
Speaker 3: Hi, y'all doing.
Speaker 11: Hey, it's lively out here. So I just wanted to
Speaker 11: get your thoughts on something that I heard preached actually
Speaker 11: at a church down the street from here recently, and
Speaker 11: it's about it's very common that people from a Christian
Speaker 11: background will understand Romans one as telling you what the
Speaker 11: thoughts of a non believer are, right, what happens inside
Speaker 11: the head of a non believer, somebody that rejects God.
Speaker 11: You can find all about it in Romans one. The
Speaker 11: problem is is if you read this and I'm curious
Speaker 11: what you guys think I've never read Romans one and
Speaker 11: then found a person in existence that meets the criteria
Speaker 11: of how horrible a person this it can actually be.
Speaker 11: So just to skim down it a little bit, there
Speaker 11: you get a whole section about godlessness and wickedness going together,
Speaker 11: and we can debate that what do we call wicked?
Speaker 11: What do we call godless? Yeah, sure there's the we
Speaker 11: are without excuse. We didn't glorify God or give thanks.
Speaker 11: And I'm willing to take that on claim to be wise.
Speaker 11: But I became a fool now that probably, But I
Speaker 11: don't have to be right about everything anymore. But the
Speaker 11: scariest part about all of this is when we get
Speaker 11: down to where it talks about the kind of person
Speaker 11: that you are without God, and this is uh and
Speaker 11: this has to this is they have become filled with
Speaker 11: every kind of wickedness, evil, greed, depravity, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit,
Speaker 11: and malice. They're gossip slanderers, god haters, insolent, arrogant, boastful,
Speaker 11: and they invent ways of doing evil that disobey their parents.
Speaker 11: They have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy.
Speaker 11: And yet I have been accused of being a part
Speaker 11: of a group that has toxic empathy this year, Yet
Speaker 11: I experience no mercy, I have no love. So I'm
Speaker 11: curious to what you guys think about this. I actually
Speaker 11: have posed this back to Christians, saying I've never even
Speaker 11: a met a Christian that meets all of these criteria
Speaker 11: because this isn't what humans are like.
Speaker 1: But what do you guys say, I've never heard anyone
Speaker 1: say that this is like applied to like all Christians.
Speaker 1: They usually read Woman's one uh to me regarding the
Speaker 1: LGBTQ I a community, And first.
Speaker 2: Off, I have to literally do a.
Speaker 1: A reading class with them and teach them how to
Speaker 1: follow pronouns so that they can find the subject and understand,
Speaker 1: like who is Paul talking about here? And we got
Speaker 1: to follow the days and thems throughout the whole thing
Speaker 1: to identify.
Speaker 2: Who the who Paul is talking about.
Speaker 1: And it's he's basically talking about the Jewish followers in
Speaker 1: Rome who have left Paul's gospel and gone to Pagodism.
Speaker 2: And so he's being specific about a specific group of people.
Speaker 4: But the.
Speaker 1: Paul is ranting here, like he's not basically saying that
Speaker 1: this is every human in the world that doesn't believe
Speaker 1: in his God. But also I always ask them, are
Speaker 1: you saying that every homosexual person invents evil shit and
Speaker 1: it's proud of it? Like, are you saying that every
Speaker 1: homosexual person is this disobeys their parents?
Speaker 2: Like you got to be saying that they all do.
Speaker 1: These things, and they'll go, well, no, just some of them,
Speaker 1: Like it doesn't make any sense. But also I think
Speaker 1: a lot of hatred comes from that text because people
Speaker 1: just don't fucking know how to read. Like we're dealing
Speaker 1: with low literacy, and then people believe that they can
Speaker 1: interpret the words of an all powerful, all knowing and
Speaker 1: intelligent God and you're sitting here with a fifth less
Speaker 1: than a fifth grade literacy level.
Speaker 3: Like no, well, I'm reading Romans one here and it
Speaker 3: says they devise new ways of sinning, And I'm interested
Speaker 3: in this new ways of sinning, Like, I mean, I
Speaker 3: don't know about y'all, but I'm pretty tired of like
Speaker 3: the old ways of sinning that we've been doing all
Speaker 3: this heathen re shit. Let's figure out, let's work shop
Speaker 3: some new ways to sin. I mean, we can easily
Speaker 3: do this, y'all. We're all very smart people here, like
Speaker 3: we can determine new ways to sin. But you know,
Speaker 3: even within the context that you know, the Christians typically
Speaker 3: throw this at throw it at us with I think
Speaker 3: that it's particularly hilarious the idea of being labeled as
Speaker 3: as having was it toxic compassion or toxic empathy? Yeah,
Speaker 3: toxic empathy. But then in the same breath reference a
Speaker 3: scripture that says they don't show any kindness or compassion
Speaker 3: like I don't. I cannot, I literally cannot take anybody
Speaker 3: seriously if they're gonna say, if they're gonna claim like
Speaker 3: toxic empathy, but then be like, you're just not kind enough.
Speaker 3: That just doesn't make sense to me. Yeah, we got
Speaker 3: another question from the audience, very inquisitive audience today.
Speaker 12: Hey there, Jamie, how you doing. Hello there, folks. I
Speaker 12: love the idea of the new original sins like forgiving
Speaker 12: me Father, for I have sinned, I have coveted when
Speaker 12: I was wife, forgive me Father, I invert a squirrel.
Speaker 12: Well that's an original sin, but my actual not invert rodents.
Speaker 12: But my actual question is actually comes from the dearth
Speaker 12: of actual Christians coming up to defend their God, because man,
Speaker 12: have I been in some online fights over the past
Speaker 12: few days. One very specifically sticks out in my mind,
Speaker 12: and again I invited them to come onto the shows
Speaker 12: and talk about it. It was that they said that
Speaker 12: we could not deign to call something that God does
Speaker 12: unjust because we, again, we can't comprehend what justice is.
Speaker 12: And the simple answer I always give is, well, justice
Speaker 12: is getting what you deserve. How can you redefine it
Speaker 12: to mean something else? I mean, if some Christians says, well,
Speaker 12: you can't call God unjust because he's God, how would
Speaker 12: you respond to that?
Speaker 3: See, you can't call God unjust because he's God. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's something of that nature.
Speaker 12: The sovereignty, the sovereignty, and also just the fact that
Speaker 12: we are mere humans and what is our framework for justice?
Speaker 3: Well, I mean it seems like they're just starting off with, well,
Speaker 3: God is just, and so whatever's you know, you know,
Speaker 3: against God or not falling in line with what God wants,
Speaker 3: that's unjust. So it's basically defining just or what is
Speaker 3: just by whatever God likes or whatever God wants. And
Speaker 3: I feel like that's kind of past awkwards from what.
Speaker 1: Justice they do with morality though, right, yeah, it is
Speaker 1: is the sovereign God like mean human him, God, I
Speaker 1: know nothing, you know all, Like that's what it basically is.
Speaker 3: Uh okay. So I'm not trying to shield my own
Speaker 3: stuff here right now. But I do have I've put
Speaker 3: out a Bible app that has a bunch of like
Speaker 3: an analysis section and everything like that. And so I'm
Speaker 3: pulling up here since we don't have any Christians to
Speaker 3: call in because they're too scared to face you know,
Speaker 3: thinker in myself like they don't they don't want to
Speaker 3: challenge us on God. It's way too They're like, nah,
Speaker 3: we're not going to have our asses handed to us
Speaker 3: today by by these two. But if you would like
Speaker 3: to call in, uh, the number is five one two
Speaker 3: nine nine one nine two four two, or you can
Speaker 3: request up over there on the TikTok side, or you
Speaker 3: can hit up ACA dot show Forward, slash call and
Speaker 3: you can be able to talk to us. But like
Speaker 3: I said, I do have my own Bible app that
Speaker 3: I'm setting up, I'm maintaining and everything like that, and
Speaker 3: I've got this contradiction section. Now, thinker, Uh do you
Speaker 3: have like a oh okay, Uh, so do you have
Speaker 3: a favorite like contradiction in the Bible at.
Speaker 1: All favorite contradiction not really hmmm, a favorite one I
Speaker 1: don't even like. I rarely pay attention to the contradictions.
Speaker 4: Huh.
Speaker 2: I don't have a favorite one. I can't think of
Speaker 2: what one like.
Speaker 1: I guess the solemn, I mean the the inciting Satan inciting,
Speaker 1: like I think.
Speaker 2: This is the way my mind works.
Speaker 1: At first, when I first started deconstructing, the contradictions were
Speaker 1: a big deal to me, right, and then the more
Speaker 1: and more I studied, and I'm like, oh, the it's
Speaker 1: not univocal.
Speaker 2: So this is why this one says this and this.
Speaker 1: So I don't nearly pay attention to the contradictions that
Speaker 1: much unless you know a believer like breis it up?
Speaker 2: But the Solomon not Solomon? Uh for Samuel and uh.
Speaker 1: Second chronicles where the god in size David with the
Speaker 1: to take the census, and then the chronicler comes back
Speaker 1: and goes, no, it was I guess that one, okay,
Speaker 1: would be.
Speaker 2: It's not a favorite. I don't have a favorite college.
Speaker 2: You put me on the spot.
Speaker 3: I'm so sorry. You know that everybody's scared to call us.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to think of, you know, stuff to do
Speaker 3: on the spot. Here for me personally, which anybody else, Yes, the.
Speaker 1: Birth of Jesus, thank you, she called me batman. The
Speaker 1: that's the birth of Jesus. And whether quin terry is
Speaker 1: whether the he was born during the census. Okay, yeah, yeah, No,
Speaker 1: that's a good one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really good one because you know, you
Speaker 3: can't he can't be born in both time periods, and
Speaker 3: both time periods are time box to a certain events
Speaker 3: that you know they have to contend with. So that's
Speaker 3: that's a that's a good one. I know one is
Speaker 3: kind of like one of those prophecies that Jesus like
Speaker 3: never fulfilled kind of thing. So I'm looking here and
Speaker 3: for anybody out there that's curious, party, yes.
Speaker 1: Okay, that man, I'd be named him all kinds of things, Jesus,
Speaker 1: Joseph Christ but quh.
Speaker 3: But for anybody that's curious, it's Gebible dot app and
Speaker 3: it's got like some great analyses sections. But the contradiction
Speaker 3: I'm looking at right now is will the Messiah be
Speaker 3: a descendant of David? And so like there's several old
Speaker 3: Testament stuff that is actually characterizing like what they think
Speaker 3: the Messiah will be, and that's a descendant of David, right,
Speaker 3: and then of course in the New Testament they have
Speaker 3: to finagle things which kind of plays off of what
Speaker 3: you were talking about the different birthdays of Jesus. But
Speaker 3: this is the different lineages, because there's different lineages that
Speaker 3: are given to Jesus and it's all in an effort
Speaker 3: to directly connect him to David. And so that's it's
Speaker 3: it's an interesting contradiction in the Bible because it's it's
Speaker 3: definitely the Bible at odds with itself as far as
Speaker 3: like what even the Messiah is going to be. I
Speaker 3: believe we have another question from the audience. All right,
Speaker 3: so what's up their audience? How you doing?
Speaker 4: I'm good, I'm doing good.
Speaker 2: Let me just try to see if I get right.
Speaker 4: There we go.
Speaker 10: So recently, a famous streamer as been Gold, said online
Speaker 10: as an atheist that he would prefer to live in
Speaker 10: a white Christian nationalist nation because of the values that
Speaker 10: it instills in everyone else and that how that benefits him.
Speaker 10: I was wondering what you guys would think of that,
Speaker 10: and honestly, why an atheist would come to that kind
Speaker 10: of conclusion.
Speaker 1: Well, I think atheism doesn't get rid of racism like
Speaker 1: there are racist atheists, there are homophobic atheists. Like atheism
Speaker 1: is just a lack of belief in a god, atheism isn't.
Speaker 2: I'm a moral person. I'm more moral because I don't believe.
Speaker 4: In a god.
Speaker 1: And I think this is why I say I don't
Speaker 1: give a fuck of a person believes in a god
Speaker 1: or not.
Speaker 2: I care about what you say you believe.
Speaker 1: Right on my live stream, when people come up, if
Speaker 1: they are racist, if they're rude, I don't stop and think, oh,
Speaker 1: this is an atheist.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna treat you different. I'm not. I'm gonna say fuck.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna say fuck you lord.
Speaker 1: No, you're gonna get the same aggression whether you're a
Speaker 1: believing a believer who's racist or homophobic, or an atheist.
Speaker 1: But I think it's just that that person is a
Speaker 1: racist atheist who prefers white supremacy ideologies, whether it's with
Speaker 1: a god or without.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I don't know why in the fuck anybody
Speaker 3: would say that they would prefer Christian nationalism like that
Speaker 3: seems like a crazy, you know, position to hold. And
Speaker 3: it's exactly what Thinker said that, you know, inherent or
Speaker 3: ingrained racism is always seems to be always present in group.
Speaker 3: You know, the atheist position isn't inoculated against racism, misogyny,
Speaker 3: or any of those things. And I think to want
Speaker 3: to live in a Christian nationalist sort of system, I
Speaker 3: guess it kind of reveals that, like, you know, as
Speaker 3: long as you're okay, you don't care what happens to
Speaker 3: everybody else. And I feel like that reveals more about you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think there's a different Like so when
Speaker 1: they say Christian nationalism, they're not saying, oh, everybody who's
Speaker 1: Christian will be prioritized.
Speaker 2: It's it's hierarchical, right.
Speaker 1: And we've heard different people within office say things about
Speaker 1: Christian nationalism is white Christian nationalism, right, It is the
Speaker 1: white Christian male prioritized at the top, and then everybody
Speaker 1: else at the bottom, who you know, who are Christian.
Speaker 1: That's Christian nationalism. And you know, we can't you know,
Speaker 1: play around with that, like people like there there are
Speaker 1: black people who have said that they they think Christian
Speaker 1: nationalism would be okay because they think that Christian nationalism
Speaker 1: just means it's Christian, you know, that's being prioritized.
Speaker 3: It's it's hierarchical, right, and I know a lot of
Speaker 3: people have like the like I was saying before, with
Speaker 3: the romanticized sort of idea of God or Jesus. They
Speaker 3: do the same thing with Christianity in general. They romanticize
Speaker 3: the religion into thinking that, oh, it's it's just happy,
Speaker 3: go lucky, like it's just being good to people and
Speaker 3: all this other stuff, when in reality, I think that
Speaker 3: you're you're liable to get into the harsher you know,
Speaker 3: fundamentalists sort of sex, because those are the sex that
Speaker 3: are really pushing for Christian nationalism. It's the fundamentalists out there.
Speaker 3: It's the it's the fundamentalist Like sorry, I almost slipped
Speaker 3: up there. It's fundamentalists out there that want to enact
Speaker 3: family voting, and they want to enact different law laws
Speaker 3: to disenfranchise women, especially black women and the black community
Speaker 3: in general. They are out there trying to push for
Speaker 3: laws that are gonna sequester, you know, the vote for
Speaker 3: says head white males. And so if you if you
Speaker 3: hear a says head white male who is very obviously
Speaker 3: gonna be okay in a Christian nationalist state, uh be like, oh,
Speaker 3: Christian nationalism is perfectly fine with me. It's they're just saying,
Speaker 3: I don't care what fucking happens to you. I'm fine.
Speaker 2: Well, some of them don't know.
Speaker 1: Like I talked to one on my on my Life
Speaker 1: like two weeks ago, and he was a, you know,
Speaker 1: a nice guy. He said he he was one that
Speaker 1: believed that Christian nationalism just meant, you know, that.
Speaker 2: The God would govern. And I asked him.
Speaker 1: I was like, well, who's gonna decide? Like, how do
Speaker 1: you know when a god is creating a rule, Like
Speaker 1: how does the God govern? And he's like, I didn't
Speaker 1: think about that. He was like, everybody communicates with God.
Speaker 1: I said, so it's going to be a nation of chaos,
Speaker 1: like everybody's gonna be fighting back and forth saying God
Speaker 1: said this. God said that, and he goes, no, He said,
Speaker 1: you know, there's going to be one person that speaks
Speaker 1: for God. And I said, well, who decides who that
Speaker 1: person is? And he said, well, I guess it would
Speaker 1: have to be you know, like Moses, Like God made
Speaker 1: moses staff into a snake. I said, are y'all waiting
Speaker 1: on some magic trick to be able to choose who's
Speaker 1: going to speak for the God in this theocracy? That
Speaker 1: y'all are hoping. He was like, well, I didn't think
Speaker 1: about that. So, like a lot of them are sitting
Speaker 1: around thinking that it would be great for God to
Speaker 1: you know, govern.
Speaker 3: You know, our world.
Speaker 1: But who's gonna actually talk because the God don't have
Speaker 1: lips and he.
Speaker 2: Can't talk. Oh, yeah, I said it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we do have one question question I think from
Speaker 3: the audience this, I know who this is on this
Speaker 3: go ahead?
Speaker 13: Yeah, So my question is one of the most common
Speaker 13: and I would say most frustrating responses that I've gotten
Speaker 13: from theists when I bring up biblical contradictions is mysterious ways.
Speaker 13: And so I was wondering, what is your maybe favorite
Speaker 13: or best response to when a theist just gives that
Speaker 13: answer and kind of tries to shut down the conversation.
Speaker 2: His ways are mysterious.
Speaker 1: We usually just make fun of it, like it depends
Speaker 1: on what we're talking about, because it's like it's a mystery.
Speaker 2: Then how they held that you even know about it?
Speaker 2: Like what else is a mystery?
Speaker 1: But those are thought stopping cliches. Yeah, like, it depends
Speaker 1: on what we're talking about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, how I'd respond to it would would just be
Speaker 3: simply to acknowledge the thought stopping nature of it and
Speaker 3: be like, well that that's just the thought stopper and
Speaker 3: you know, and then try to probe a little bit
Speaker 3: more is what I would do, Like, uh, you know,
Speaker 3: I would try to get them to think more critically
Speaker 3: about it, like instead of you know, stopping there mysterious ways,
Speaker 3: go a bit deeper and be like, well, can a
Speaker 3: god that's all good? Really, you know, command the sex
Speaker 3: trafficking little girls, Like I don't think so. You would
Speaker 3: think that that would be an easy question, but like,
Speaker 3: I can't tell you the number of times I brought
Speaker 3: that up to a Christian on a call and they're like, well,
Speaker 3: it depends on the contacts. It's like, I don't think
Speaker 3: it does, buddy.
Speaker 1: Like, and I also like when they say the mysterious
Speaker 1: thing and that I say that that their world is
Speaker 1: spiritual and whatever happens in the spiritual world states in
Speaker 1: the spiritual world.
Speaker 2: You just want to be able to say that up
Speaker 2: and down and down up like that ain't a mister,
Speaker 2: that's you lying?
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, thank you so much for that question.
Speaker 4: We do.
Speaker 3: We have Maddie calling in yep, Hi there, Maddie, how
Speaker 3: you doing.
Speaker 4: Hi?
Speaker 7: I'm doing good. How are y'all?
Speaker 3: I'm doing pretty good. So what do you want to
Speaker 3: talk about today?
Speaker 7: I want to talk about the topic about God being
Speaker 7: a moral monster, and I could not agree more. Honestly,
Speaker 7: it's kind of annoying when believers say, especially to atheists,
Speaker 7: that we get our morals from a God, or even
Speaker 7: try to elude that we get our morals from the God,
Speaker 7: like they wouldn't even agree with half of the shit
Speaker 7: in this book, like going into other country and getting
Speaker 7: virgin child brides, or slavery or selling your daughter off.
Speaker 4: At the sex slave.
Speaker 7: But I want to ask, how would you guys go
Speaker 7: about showing or talking about our morals existing outside of
Speaker 7: this God or the fact that they don't come from
Speaker 7: this God? And how should we deal with being told
Speaker 7: that our morals do come from this God of this book?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I personally like to appeal to secular humanism,
Speaker 3: and the way that I bring that up is that
Speaker 3: I essentially juxtapose secular humanism against like God, his will,
Speaker 3: what God wants, because like the moral system that Christianity
Speaker 3: presents is God centered, it's not human centered. It's not
Speaker 3: centered on the health and well being of our fellow
Speaker 3: humans or other sentient creatures on our planet or anywhere
Speaker 3: for that matter, and so I typically will juxtapose it
Speaker 3: against that, like I care about what happens to my
Speaker 3: fellow humans and what effect my actions have on people
Speaker 3: around me. That's what I care about, and that's what
Speaker 3: I ground my sense of morality, and that's how I
Speaker 3: make my moral decisions as to you know, how does
Speaker 3: this how does this action affect the people around me
Speaker 3: and affect my society and all that. Whereas Christians, what
Speaker 3: they end up doing, not all Christians obviously, but like
Speaker 3: the Christians that would pose this particular challenge, they're going
Speaker 3: to be more concerned with what pleases God, and that's
Speaker 3: usually not what's best for humanity, and it's really hard
Speaker 3: for them to actually, at least I find it's hard
Speaker 3: for them to ground that in what's best for humanity
Speaker 3: other than just the simple claim that it is best
Speaker 3: for humanity just because God says so, and that's never convincing.
Speaker 1: Well maney, I would have to say that sometimes you'll
Speaker 1: hear Christians say that you can't ground your morals unless
Speaker 1: it's within the God. And I've had conversations with believers
Speaker 1: in ass well if you believe that it is wrong
Speaker 1: for you to kill, and I believe that it's wrong
Speaker 1: to kill, and neither of us kill, then what's the difference?
Speaker 1: And they say, well, yours isn't grounded in God and
Speaker 1: you're not killing. Doesn't really matter, Like they don't have
Speaker 1: any any basis to say that if we both aren't
Speaker 1: out here killing people, that there is any better than
Speaker 1: the other. But when then I come back and I say, okay,
Speaker 1: but if your God tells you that, if you believe
Speaker 1: that God is speaking to you and he wants you
Speaker 1: to go and kill, then do you kill? And they
Speaker 1: say yes, And I say, the difference with me is
Speaker 1: that my morals are rooted in logic, and my morals
Speaker 1: are rooted in compassion and humanity. So then there there
Speaker 1: isn't anything outside of me that can override that logic
Speaker 1: that says that it is harmful to like, everyone deserves
Speaker 1: a right to life, and therefore I should not take
Speaker 1: someone else's life because I wouldn't want someone to intrude
Speaker 1: on my right to live.
Speaker 2: Right, So that logic overrides.
Speaker 1: In the in the moment of when when I'm in
Speaker 1: a moment of heat, right and I'm upset, that logical
Speaker 1: framework then stops me from harming another person. But if
Speaker 1: you're if you if your moral system is rooted in
Speaker 1: a belief that a God can command you to kill
Speaker 1: in a moment of anger, and you can tell yourself
Speaker 1: a scripture he gives us to the righteous judgment, and
Speaker 1: he said they will try down all the scorpions and
Speaker 1: then bam, you don't kill somebody because you believe God
Speaker 1: has told you to.
Speaker 2: Does that make sense? Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
Speaker 14: I mean I always say that my mother taught me
Speaker 14: my morals.
Speaker 2: I think humanity.
Speaker 14: We've been teaching ourselves my morals through the exact things
Speaker 14: that you guys said, like circular humanism, and also what
Speaker 14: we believe is right, Like we know, am well that
Speaker 14: flapping somebody's for no reason is a bad thing, Like
Speaker 14: we should not do that, and that's because it's harming
Speaker 14: a person.
Speaker 7: So I always say it comes like, yeah, that's bound.
Speaker 14: I'm sorry, y'all.
Speaker 7: Okay, So yeah, I was.
Speaker 2: Agree with you.
Speaker 1: I was saying bullying is bad, and like kicking people
Speaker 1: off of bikes, that's bad.
Speaker 7: Yeah, right, especially especially like there's no reason, but there's
Speaker 7: obviously a reason why somebody.
Speaker 2: And that's when the morals get overwritten.
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying, right, this should never be a
Speaker 1: reason that you can say, hey, I kicked a child
Speaker 1: off of a bike. But like, if that happens, then
Speaker 1: your morals aren't rooted in and logic or secular humanism, right, It's.
Speaker 2: Rooted in like emotion. And so that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: That was an example, but go ahead, I'm sorry, all.
Speaker 7: Right, right, And I mean, you know that could be
Speaker 7: subjective depending on the situation, you know, but it's okay.
Speaker 7: Like our parents, our morals and moral.
Speaker 14: Are really just passed down through our generations.
Speaker 7: And I think as our brains developed, you know, as
Speaker 7: a species of humans, as we developed, as we started
Speaker 7: thinking about things that we like happening in us and
Speaker 7: things that we don't like happening to us, we created
Speaker 7: these morals. And like we see, these morals differentiate depending
Speaker 7: on what region of the world we're looking at. Like
Speaker 7: we can look at greg Miss how they have their
Speaker 7: morals and this book and how they have their morals.
Speaker 7: For for instance, we can look at Buddhism and what
Speaker 7: they believe in Hinduism and how they all just kind
Speaker 7: of different.
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 7: Are different minds on the way we think in.
Speaker 2: These different areas and situations.
Speaker 14: Yes, that's.
Speaker 11: That is.
Speaker 2: That is so true, Maddie. I agree.
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm not in on the joke on this.
Speaker 3: I'm trying to act like it's just a mystic's.
Speaker 7: That's all we're giggling about.
Speaker 1: Yes, at me, Okay, that's okay, the correct way it's
Speaker 1: it's Buddhism, that's the creation.
Speaker 3: No, it's Buddhism. It is bootyism, now, that.
Speaker 1: Is what it is.
Speaker 7: Booty No.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I prefer Buddism to you know, Buddhism.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's okay.
Speaker 7: Back, won't stop laughing.
Speaker 2: It's okay, Matt, it is okay.
Speaker 1: Hey, we make mistakes, right, And so that's the good
Speaker 1: thing about secular humanism is that we're not going to
Speaker 1: send you to hell for saying Buddhism, like, we're gonna.
Speaker 2: Laugh with you. We're gonna like offer the correct.
Speaker 1: Information and it's just gonna be a clip that's gonna
Speaker 1: be funny.
Speaker 15: No, let's not clip that.
Speaker 7: But thank you guys, Thank you guys for the information
Speaker 7: in the conversation. It was really good and I hope
Speaker 7: you'll have a great show.
Speaker 2: Can you save me?
Speaker 3: You bye bye. So, just so that everybody knows, technically,
Speaker 3: the religion that worship's booty is at at donndtology apparently.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's the religious worship of curvy bunts.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, oh wow you interesting.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, since we.
Speaker 1: Have taken one call and we're almost done for today,
Speaker 1: I am gonna go ahead and finish our announcements. We
Speaker 1: have a channel that houses all of the shows on
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Speaker 3: All right, so we do have somebody on the TikTok,
Speaker 3: but we do have an audience question real quick that
Speaker 3: we want to get to before getting to the TikTok guest. So,
Speaker 3: TikTok guest, we will get to you here in just
Speaker 3: a second, but let's go back out to the audience.
Speaker 15: Well, much like you said, the nurse who could be
Speaker 15: could have good intentions or poor intentions, but she appears
Speaker 15: to have good intentions. Let's pretend that I want you
Speaker 15: to pick your favorite God dilemma, and let's pretend that
Speaker 15: God tells you you're wrong about me.
Speaker 3: You've got it all wrong.
Speaker 2: I did the right thing.
Speaker 3: You think God was im moral? You did the right thing.
Speaker 15: What evidence would you require from the God in order
Speaker 15: to support him saying that he was actually moral in
Speaker 15: the instance that we he appears to be immral.
Speaker 1: I think it would actually take me like I would
Speaker 1: have to take some time to think about that. But
Speaker 1: I think I've studied a lot of the dilemmas, you
Speaker 1: know pretty much that I don't see any evidence of
Speaker 1: actually being a morals Like if we look at the
Speaker 1: David one, where the God basically plays a Livio pope
Speaker 1: for David and fixes the situation. I can't see in
Speaker 1: any situation, in any instance, why, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: see anything that would make me go, oh, okay, I
Speaker 1: see why he told Nathan not to hold a trial
Speaker 1: and put the king on trial and get the witnesses.
Speaker 1: If had he held a trial, what large, what big
Speaker 1: a worser event could have happened? And why did David
Speaker 1: need to live? Like I don't, I don't know. I've
Speaker 1: studied it enough to Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that the ones that I would have
Speaker 3: trouble with on this one would be ones that are
Speaker 3: pretty much beyond the pale, Like I guess it would
Speaker 3: take an incredible amount of evidence to show that it
Speaker 3: is actually benefiting mankind, like number thirty one eighteen. I
Speaker 3: can't imagine the reason why slaughtering an entire group of people,
Speaker 3: but taking the young girls as plunders to be forced
Speaker 3: into sexual slavery. I don't foresee any kind of context
Speaker 3: at all in which a better plan couldn't have been derived, Like,
Speaker 3: you can come up with better solutions for that that
Speaker 3: are more humane, more humanistic, and actually care about people
Speaker 3: in that situation. I mean, mainly, don't kill everybody. I
Speaker 3: feel like that would be the case, but you would
Speaker 3: have to show how, like oh, yeah, they totally you know,
Speaker 3: needed to die for one reason or another. It would
Speaker 3: just have to be a really really good reason that
Speaker 3: I guess. I feel like it is nigh insurmountable.
Speaker 2: I think, like I've actually thought about these things. And
Speaker 2: when I.
Speaker 1: Talk about the fact that if he's all powerful, then
Speaker 1: he shouldn't have to do anything and moral to get
Speaker 1: his what he wants done. Right, if we think about
Speaker 1: the many conversations that we have with believers who say, well,
Speaker 1: God had to lie, he had to send lying spirits
Speaker 1: because he needed to get Ahab up to Mount Yeah,
Speaker 1: so he could kill him.
Speaker 2: So he just he didn't actually lie.
Speaker 1: He gave the spirits permission because that was a part
Speaker 1: of the plan to get a have to do whatever. Well,
Speaker 1: if he has to demoralize himself, because if lying's against
Speaker 1: his nature, and he has to give permission to something
Speaker 1: that's against his nature in order for a thing to happen.
Speaker 1: That he's not all powerful, right, And that's the lie
Speaker 1: that you're telling yourself. And so I've thought about it
Speaker 1: from that way as well. And then this divine command
Speaker 1: theory and God is sovereign and he created us, therefore
Speaker 1: he can take our lives. Well, then if you believe
Speaker 1: that he gave you life and he's the reason that
Speaker 1: you wake up every morning, then you're thanking him for that.
Speaker 2: Then what all powerful, sovereign God needs.
Speaker 1: To wake up a group of humans and then send
Speaker 1: another group of humans and to that land to kill
Speaker 1: him because he doesn't want them on the earth anymore.
Speaker 2: That's illogical to me. And they're like, there's no.
Speaker 1: Amount of evidence that would make me go, oh, that's
Speaker 1: why he that's why he didn't even wake the MP
Speaker 1: like he literally put that story puts the power of
Speaker 1: life and death in the hands of a mortal while
Speaker 1: at the same time there's mortal supposed to see themselves
Speaker 1: as less than the God. Right, So it doesn't it
Speaker 1: just I've studied these things so much, I've asked so
Speaker 1: many questions.
Speaker 2: I just don't see any other.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we've got somebody from TikTok. But lines are
Speaker 3: still open over there for you to call in. The
Speaker 3: number is five one two nine nine two four to two.
Speaker 3: If you think that you can defend God from his immoral,
Speaker 3: really shitty attitude towards human beings, then please do call in.
Speaker 3: We would love to hear from you and try to
Speaker 3: defend him. But over here on the TikTok side, we
Speaker 3: do have Melmann medic that wants to request up and
Speaker 3: let's see if they can connect.
Speaker 2: She might be a friendly, that's one of.
Speaker 3: The Let's see if they can connect.
Speaker 2: It might be a friendly, that's one of them.
Speaker 3: I'm getting crap. I'm getting feedback.
Speaker 2: I can't.
Speaker 3: Uh there we go. Oh nope, still getting feedback.
Speaker 2: I can't drop our or meter. I don't know why.
Speaker 3: I think they're working it out on the other end.
Speaker 4: Let go.
Speaker 3: Somebody said in the chat.
Speaker 2: There, Uh, I'm not sure if she knew she was
Speaker 2: up there yet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, Well, uh so we actually don't have anybody
Speaker 3: on TikTok but my bad.
Speaker 4: Uh uh.
Speaker 3: But as far as uh, you know, I guess the
Speaker 3: morality of God goes. I mean, we have been talking
Speaker 3: about a lot of different topics today as far as
Speaker 3: the morality of God goes. And uh, I'm wondering, do
Speaker 3: you do you find that whenever you confront Christians on
Speaker 3: your lives with the morality of God, What's what's a
Speaker 3: common answer that they give to like the more horrible
Speaker 3: things that you know, you confront.
Speaker 2: Them with, like sovereign, You can't question God? Like who
Speaker 2: are you too? To say that God is for all?
Speaker 2: It's just it's usually the divine and command theory. God
Speaker 2: is sovereign.
Speaker 1: Especially when we talk about David. This might be white
Speaker 1: people don't like talking to my ass, but.
Speaker 2: Like today that it was in God.
Speaker 1: David had a bigger plan and that's why the God
Speaker 1: did not require David to be held liable for coting
Speaker 1: adultrait and murder according to the law, So David had
Speaker 1: to live so that Solomon could be born. And I said, oh,
Speaker 1: I said, so you're telling me that your God orchestrated
Speaker 1: David sin.
Speaker 2: Like your God influenced David.
Speaker 1: To commit adultery and commit dartists murder so that he
Speaker 1: could marry Bethshiva, so that he could have Solomon and
Speaker 1: she said, I guess that's what that's I guess that's
Speaker 1: what it is. I said, No, that's exactly what you
Speaker 1: just said. It is like it was all in your
Speaker 1: God's plan for David to commit murder and blah blah blah.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I think that's why they don't like
Speaker 1: talking to my ask but allowed to go talments of it.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean it's hard when you put them
Speaker 3: down into a situation where they don't have an answer,
Speaker 3: because what I've noticed is that a lot of Christians
Speaker 3: out there, they don't like not having the answer. That's
Speaker 3: why it's easy to just punt it to you know,
Speaker 3: well God said this, God said that kind of thing,
Speaker 3: and when they don't have an answer, it really makes
Speaker 3: them uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: I think the problem is that they do positive answers
Speaker 1: and then they expect that answer to be it. But
Speaker 1: then when you when you say, okay, so this is
Speaker 1: you're saying, this is what happened. Okay, let's look at
Speaker 1: that and analyze that claim. And that's what they're not expecting, right,
Speaker 1: that's for that answer to be taken and investigated further,
Speaker 1: saying that, oh, the reason God didn't require the law
Speaker 1: to be followed was because Solomon had to be born.
Speaker 1: They're not thinking about the intelment of that claim of
Speaker 1: that being the answer right to say that, you're if
Speaker 1: it had to be Solomon needed to be born, then
Speaker 1: your God orchestrated all the sudden.
Speaker 2: In the beginning, it was a part of its claim.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, so, uh, we don't have any car or well,
Speaker 3: we got one that's screening in, I believe, so we
Speaker 3: we're gonna have a call here in just a second.
Speaker 3: Uh while that is screening in, we do have some
Speaker 3: super chats to cover. We've got the first super chant here.
Speaker 3: Sorry for springing this on the the crew. On the
Speaker 3: back end there, we've got a slow TDI for nine
Speaker 3: ninety nine that says what you're experiencing, thinker is exactly
Speaker 3: one of the reasons I moved from Clarksville, Tennessee, to
Speaker 3: out to Utah. I was tired of breathing my water
Speaker 3: and would rather be in Iraq literally than in Tennessee.
Speaker 3: What did he talk about, Oh, he's talking about weather,
Speaker 3: so like how hot it is, you know in in Tennessee.
Speaker 3: I guess the you know how the humidity and all
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff with how how hot and difficult.
Speaker 3: It can be out there. See, we do have somebody
Speaker 3: that's get uh there we go. They just popped up
Speaker 3: into the host queue. We've got uh Tariq calling in.
Speaker 3: Trek is a theist? What's up there, Terik? How you doing?
Speaker 3: I'm all right yourself doing good there, buddy. Uh So
Speaker 3: what do you want to talk about today?
Speaker 4: I don't think God is immoral. I think that he
Speaker 4: has to make the tough choices that lead to the
Speaker 4: ultimate good.
Speaker 3: Okay, what tough choices? I think you're you're shaking your
Speaker 3: head there.
Speaker 2: I've talked to I've talked to k a thousand times.
Speaker 3: Okay, so he's he's he's not working with us, he's
Speaker 3: he's legit.
Speaker 7: Again.
Speaker 3: I am not in on the joke, uh Treek? Okay,
Speaker 3: So why do you think that your God is doing
Speaker 3: things because he has to?
Speaker 4: Uh? Well, let me do with because like you never
Speaker 4: heard of the butterfly effect?
Speaker 3: Oh you mean like with asking picture?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've seen that movie. I mean you know it's
Speaker 3: all right, I mean it can be a little confusing
Speaker 3: at times. Have you seen the alternate ending where you
Speaker 3: like basically strangles himself in the womb like that's kind
Speaker 3: of fucked.
Speaker 4: Up, right, I've actually never seen the film.
Speaker 3: Oh shit, why'd you bring it up?
Speaker 4: Well, it's because it's the same premise. Oh, there's a
Speaker 4: premise if you try to if you try to change
Speaker 4: things to avoid certain outcomes, and things might be worse.
Speaker 4: So I think you have to get rid of the
Speaker 4: Amalekites for a better world. Yes, otherwise things might have
Speaker 4: been worse.
Speaker 3: Well, so Treik, God would know everything, right, correct, Okay, So,
Speaker 3: like I get that you're trying to liken slaughtering entire
Speaker 3: groups of people to a butterfly wing causing a hurricane
Speaker 3: or a tornado or a cyclone or something like that.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's a little bit reductive in my opinion.
Speaker 3: But do you with God knowing everything, don't you think
Speaker 3: that maybe God could figure out a way to like
Speaker 3: affect whatever he wanted to without, you know, needlessly slaughtering people.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm. I think that God has set up the
Speaker 4: system and works within it to generate the outcomes that
Speaker 4: are desired.
Speaker 3: Who desired, and who's desired outcome his.
Speaker 4: Exactly.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean couldn't he I mean, couldn't he figure
Speaker 3: out a way to get his desired outcome without having
Speaker 3: to like, you know, slaughter an infant.
Speaker 4: You know, that's a question that I wrestled with for
Speaker 4: years and ultimately the answer is.
Speaker 3: Hold Onterri, hold on. What a second thinker, have you
Speaker 3: had to wrestle with the idea of whether or not
Speaker 3: you should slaughter an infant?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 3: No, okay, So it seems like you don't really have
Speaker 3: to wrestle with it. Why did you have to wrestle
Speaker 3: with whether or not stabbing a baby's friend?
Speaker 2: So did you do you wrestle? Do you think that
Speaker 2: abortion isn't more?
Speaker 4: Absolutely?
Speaker 1: But you got to wrestle with the idea of whether
Speaker 1: or not as okay to slaughter and if it, well.
Speaker 4: You see it's different because one is ordained by God
Speaker 4: and the other it's just malice.
Speaker 3: Well hold on for human life, well hold on. So
Speaker 3: like when God, God ordained a type of abortion, and
Speaker 3: I believe numbers right, Like, I mean, if if a
Speaker 3: wife cheats, then you can force her to have an abortion, right,
Speaker 3: that's fine.
Speaker 4: Right, as long as it's ordained.
Speaker 3: Okay, So I means as long as the wife cheats,
Speaker 3: there you go. You can abort, right, that's fine.
Speaker 4: But you see the reason for that I'm sorry, you
Speaker 4: can go ahead.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean it just seems a bit uneven
Speaker 3: to me that it seems like if God were to
Speaker 3: appear to you right now, like Jesus right in the
Speaker 3: middle of your living room or maybe your basement sorry
Speaker 3: parents' basement. Sorry, I had to correct myself. It appeared
Speaker 3: to you right now and was like, hey, I need
Speaker 3: you to go next door and stab a baby in
Speaker 3: the face. You think that that would be morally better
Speaker 3: than allowing a woman to have bodily autonomy?
Speaker 4: Is that?
Speaker 3: Am I imagine? Am tracking that right?
Speaker 4: You're kind of there essentially without the go ahead of
Speaker 4: the preordanization of the act of God, I would not
Speaker 4: take that action. But seeing as how he would be
Speaker 4: coming to me directly and let you know that, I
Speaker 4: would have to move.
Speaker 3: You would have to move What do you mean move,
Speaker 3: like you'd have to move to go and stab the baby,
Speaker 3: or like you would have to move as in like
Speaker 3: I've got to get out of here. It's hauntin.
Speaker 4: I mean, in the interest of you know, serving the Lord.
Speaker 4: Would obviously try to figure out why that would be
Speaker 4: asked of me.
Speaker 3: Maybe it would be a well TOI hold on, you
Speaker 3: got lean not on your own understanding, but trust in
Speaker 3: the Lord, buddy, absolutely.
Speaker 4: And I would trust that he would tell me his reasoning.
Speaker 4: It might turn out to be a.
Speaker 3: Hold on you just said, I would have to figure
Speaker 3: out why he was telling it to me. And then
Speaker 3: I quoted you scripture directly from the Lord saying, hey,
Speaker 3: don't think about it, just do it, Bud, And you're like,
Speaker 3: and then you're just kind of rolling with that, Like
Speaker 3: I feel like you're at odds with yourself here.
Speaker 4: So it's like this. Sometimes God asks people to do
Speaker 4: things much like Abraham, right, you know, go and slaughter
Speaker 4: your child, But it turns out it was just a
Speaker 4: test faith. So, like I was saying, I would try
Speaker 4: to see if maybe it was one of those situations
Speaker 4: where he wanted to see if he could trust me
Speaker 4: with much more.
Speaker 1: So you were expecting to be like Abraham, Well, yes,
Speaker 1: why do y'all always do that? Like why do y'all think?
Speaker 1: Why do y'all always think that the story is going
Speaker 1: to end for you the way it end for the
Speaker 1: characters in this book, Like are y'all watched are y'all
Speaker 1: reading this book as like a comic book, And you're
Speaker 1: like picturing yourself like in the story, and you're like.
Speaker 2: I'm Abraham, that's my character.
Speaker 1: Like why why why do you always that you're gonna
Speaker 1: get the same outcome as a character in the.
Speaker 3: Book main character syndrome.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, honestly, I think that you could actually sum
Speaker 4: that up with the phrase there's nothing new under the song.
Speaker 4: Obviously there are different archetypes out there that are you know,
Speaker 4: any filial slots And.
Speaker 1: What if he doesn't what if he does not stop
Speaker 1: you the way he stopped Abraham and Deuteronomy thirteen, He
Speaker 1: says that you must be willing to Actually, we're gonna,
Speaker 1: we're gonna, we're gonna tie Jesus in on this, Okay,
Speaker 1: So and.
Speaker 2: I'm sure you do.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you do, Matthew, Sorry, Mark fourteen twenty six.
Speaker 1: Jesus says, in order to be my disciple, you must
Speaker 1: hate your mom, your dad, your husband, your wife, your sister,
Speaker 1: your brother, and even your own life. Right, you're familiar
Speaker 1: with that smug absolutely? Are you familiar with the descripture
Speaker 1: where when Jesus was yahweh Joseph.
Speaker 2: He says that you must.
Speaker 1: If your your brother, your your son, your daughter, your husband,
Speaker 1: your wife, or even your best friend tries to get
Speaker 1: you to worship another.
Speaker 2: God, you have to kill him.
Speaker 4: I've heard you. You turn people speak on nuts, cartrios.
Speaker 2: You've heard it, right.
Speaker 1: So what if he doesn't stop you like he did Abraham?
Speaker 1: What if he follows through with that?
Speaker 2: Would you do it? What if he says, hey, in
Speaker 2: order to be my disciple, you have to hate.
Speaker 1: Your mom, your brother, your sister, your brother, and even
Speaker 1: your own life enough to follow my laws and do
Speaker 1: Toteronomy thirteen.
Speaker 4: I mean it would be tough, but you know he
Speaker 4: works in mysterious ways.
Speaker 3: It could be that she Oh, you're fucking with me, now, you.
Speaker 16: Got it?
Speaker 3: First of all, Okay, here's red flag number one, voice changer,
Speaker 3: red flag number two. You're saying all of the things
Speaker 3: that we've been talking about this entire time, unronically supposedly
Speaker 3: number three, you're having to wrestle with the idea of
Speaker 3: stabbing babies in the face or killing anybody. Really, I
Speaker 3: mean that seems to be like something you shouldn't have
Speaker 3: to like wrestle with right now, So like, what is it?
Speaker 3: Are you using?
Speaker 4: Hold on?
Speaker 3: Ter hold on? Are you using a voice changer? Because
Speaker 3: you're so embarrassed about the horrible argumentation you're giving for
Speaker 3: your God, or like, are you using it because you're
Speaker 3: just scared of being recognized by friends and family?
Speaker 4: Fortunately, this is my authentic voice.
Speaker 3: Bullshit, No, this is this is obviously a voice changer.
Speaker 3: I could have sworn I heard a second ago. Go
Speaker 3: on the fritz for a second. Oh really, I thought, so,
Speaker 3: I don't know, maybe I'm wrong anyways, tery yeah, so God,
Speaker 3: God works in God, God works in mysterious ways, and
Speaker 3: therefore stab babies in the face. Like, I don't know,
Speaker 3: I feel like that's kind of like I mean.
Speaker 4: That, well, if I could elaborate a little bit, maybe
Speaker 4: it's so that God wants me to commit that act
Speaker 4: and show me your world wherein that act produces, you know,
Speaker 4: some kind of negative net overall in the world. And
Speaker 4: then he takes you back to the time before, and it.
Speaker 3: Takes you back to the time before. What what the
Speaker 3: fuck is this?
Speaker 4: Like the time the act was committed. He has mysterious ways.
Speaker 4: I cannot tell what he would do when asking me
Speaker 4: to do such a thing. I mean, obviously he knows
Speaker 4: the way of such a decision, and obviously he provide
Speaker 4: a way out for me, seeing as how it was
Speaker 4: at his best.
Speaker 3: So can you imagine Tarique here standing in front of
Speaker 3: the judge and the judge is like, well, why the
Speaker 3: fuck did you stand up baby in the face, and
Speaker 3: He's like, I thought God was going to stop me.
Speaker 1: You're still going to go to jail. Well, like Jesus Joseph,
Speaker 1: it's not going to be able to get.
Speaker 7: You out of that.
Speaker 2: Like, you are still going to go to jail.
Speaker 3: I thought I was going to go back into the
Speaker 3: past and it was just going to be a big
Speaker 3: old fancy Wait. God was going to do a big
Speaker 3: rewind and do undo it all, and he's going to
Speaker 3: be like, aha, askton. Picture was going to come out
Speaker 3: and be like, you're butterfly punked?
Speaker 4: Can I ask you a question? Sure? I'll take that
Speaker 4: for yes. So do you conceive that I believe that
Speaker 4: God is more intelligent than any of us?
Speaker 3: I think you think that.
Speaker 4: Sure, that's exactly what I asked. Correct, So in that
Speaker 4: when he's asking me to do something and I have
Speaker 4: no idea what's on the other side of that. Am
Speaker 4: I not fair to assume that he's already threed all
Speaker 4: of that and has a solution for me waiting on
Speaker 4: the other side.
Speaker 3: Well, no, so I haven't questioned like that particular aspect
Speaker 3: of it, which I mean, I think that you should
Speaker 3: be questioning that aspect of it. My question to you
Speaker 3: specifically at the very beginning of this was why are
Speaker 3: you having to sit there and mull it over? Because
Speaker 3: you because when you first answered, you were like, well,
Speaker 3: I'd have to really think about it and everything like that.
Speaker 3: And you know, of course I lobbied that very easy
Speaker 3: scripture at you about how you shouldn't lean on your
Speaker 3: own understanding, and then you see to change your tune,
Speaker 3: so you just seem to be a bit all over
Speaker 3: the place. My contention is that you even saying, oh, well,
Speaker 3: I'd have to think about it, I'd have to, like
Speaker 3: you know, I'd have to come to the conclusion or
Speaker 3: think of a good reason as to why God would
Speaker 3: be asking me this. I'm saying that the actual answer
Speaker 3: that God would be expecting is blind obedience, and that
Speaker 3: should make you question, well, I.
Speaker 4: Think that it's testing the spirit with the spirit, and
Speaker 4: they're moving ahead once it's confirmed.
Speaker 3: Testing the spirit with the spirit. Is that like hitting
Speaker 3: a motherfucker with another motherfucker, or.
Speaker 4: I know, I would not say that it's using the
Speaker 4: character and the abilities of God to determine whether something
Speaker 4: is from God or not.
Speaker 2: But who are you testing? If you're the only one? Like,
Speaker 2: are you testing yourself?
Speaker 4: Like you're the only one?
Speaker 2: What the spirit is?
Speaker 4: You?
Speaker 15: Like?
Speaker 2: Ain't nobody else there? Like it's just you saying God
Speaker 2: say it? So who are you testing?
Speaker 4: God's will is laid out in the Bible, and we
Speaker 4: see that will come to fruition through various actions, some
Speaker 4: you would deem as you know, moral, some less, but
Speaker 4: all of it points to the reclamation of his people
Speaker 4: from hell. So testing the spirit would be seeing if
Speaker 4: the actions or words given would align with that ultimate
Speaker 4: goal of reclamation.
Speaker 2: And who decides that?
Speaker 1: When you go to the scripture and you read it,
Speaker 1: who decides whether or not it passes the test?
Speaker 4: Right? Well? The Holy Spirit will stir up that answer
Speaker 4: in me.
Speaker 2: But who decides what the Holy Spirit says?
Speaker 4: Well, that would be God, of course.
Speaker 2: And who decides that what God says?
Speaker 4: None other than himself.
Speaker 3: Do you see the circle that the thinker just belt
Speaker 3: right there? I mean it's she basically dog walked you
Speaker 3: in a circle.
Speaker 4: Well, it's only a circle because she forgot about Jesus,
Speaker 4: who makes the strongest shape a triangle.
Speaker 3: Said yeah, what okay, Well, hold on, I wanted to
Speaker 3: bring up Deuteronomy six sixteen that says do not test
Speaker 3: the Lord your God, and like, well, it says like
Speaker 3: you did at Massa.
Speaker 4: But I mean, oh, well, like I don't have a Massa,
Speaker 4: so I can't do that.
Speaker 2: It's Massa okay.
Speaker 3: But so my question though, is is that you talk
Speaker 3: about testing the spirit.
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: The spirit is God or part of God, right, okay?
Speaker 3: So so God directly says don't test me, bro, but
Speaker 3: then you're testing him, like it seems like he wouldn't
Speaker 3: like being tested.
Speaker 4: Well, unfortunately, this would not be a situation such Asthma saw.
Speaker 4: This would be taking his word, applying his word to
Speaker 4: his word, and seeing if it is in fact his word.
Speaker 4: I find my mistaken the incident at Massaw something entirely different.
Speaker 3: It's altogether Well, my point is that it says, don't
Speaker 3: test me, and so like, I feel like you should
Speaker 3: probably respect God's boundaries there with testing him.
Speaker 4: I mean, but the Bible also does say test the
Speaker 4: spirit with the spirits?
Speaker 3: Where does it say that? Well, no, I know, you
Speaker 3: mean the Bible. Buddy, what I'm asking for is book
Speaker 3: chapter verse. If he can. I've got a Bible up
Speaker 3: right in front of.
Speaker 4: Me, absolutely, So what you want to do is you
Speaker 4: want to go in your search bar of that Bible
Speaker 4: and type in testing spirit and we should pop up
Speaker 4: for you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I did. I did do the testing
Speaker 3: thing and it it brought me to the thing that said, hey,
Speaker 3: don't test me, motherfucker.
Speaker 4: And so.
Speaker 3: I'm just wondering what am I supposed to be looking for?
Speaker 3: Like I asked for book chapter verse and you're like, well,
Speaker 3: could you do a Google search for me? What I've got?
Speaker 3: I've got, So I've got Matthew four one, First John
Speaker 3: four one, Mark fourteen thirty eight, Matthew twenty six forty one,
Speaker 3: Like which one is it?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 3: First John for one says trust every spirit, but put
Speaker 3: the spirits to the testify. Oh, okay, here we go.
Speaker 3: Maybe this is it? First Yeah, I found it for you,
Speaker 3: Like did you not know about this? Did you just
Speaker 3: take a pop shot at the Bible as like it'll
Speaker 3: probably be in there. That's a that's a risky roulette.
Speaker 4: Game there, buddy, accurately quoted. That makes sense.
Speaker 3: Let's see Oh, it says, dear friends, don't trust every spirit,
Speaker 3: but put the spirits to the test to find out
Speaker 3: whether they're from God. For there are many false prophets
Speaker 3: out there in the world. So my question now is
Speaker 3: how do you discern between false prophets and true prophets?
Speaker 3: If you have God in your answer, I'm going to
Speaker 3: fucking lose it. If you say God, don't say God,
Speaker 3: are you there?
Speaker 4: It's okay, Yeah, I'm here. Are you ready for this answer?
Speaker 3: Probably not? You're not ready. You have to use the Bible,
Speaker 3: so God, thank you.
Speaker 4: Yes, you have to get to know God in order
Speaker 4: to know God. Wait, no idea, I get it.
Speaker 3: No, you have to get Wait, you got to know
Speaker 3: God before you can know God. Like, what the fuck
Speaker 3: kind of sense does that make? I feel like that
Speaker 3: violates you kind of law?
Speaker 4: No, you have to get to know God before you
Speaker 4: can know God. For instance, if I said I heard
Speaker 4: thinkers say she hates short people. With a few knew her,
Speaker 4: she probably wouldn't say that. Told me if you knew her.
Speaker 3: Why are you casting some doubt on that question? Right there? Like,
Speaker 3: she probably wouldn't hate short people.
Speaker 4: She might. I don't know.
Speaker 2: You must be short.
Speaker 3: He is short, King.
Speaker 1: But the difference, right with what you're saying, right, is
Speaker 1: that John can hear my voice. John has hung out
Speaker 1: with me, so he knows my personality, right. He has
Speaker 1: watched my YouTube videos, my TikTok, and John can just say, hey,
Speaker 1: did you say.
Speaker 2: You hate short people. You can't do that with your God.
Speaker 2: That's the difference.
Speaker 4: I can't ask somebody.
Speaker 2: You cannot.
Speaker 1: You can ask him, but you can ask him. But
Speaker 1: you're going to also answer it yourself.
Speaker 3: Right, You won't actually get an answer or God. I
Speaker 3: mean you'll you know, I'm sure you'll come up with
Speaker 3: an answer that's yourself answering.
Speaker 4: It for God. It sounds as though you've never had
Speaker 4: an actual personal in counsel with God.
Speaker 3: Am I Neither have you?
Speaker 4: So you haven't correct.
Speaker 3: No, I'm saying neither have you. Neither of us have
Speaker 3: had a personal experience with God.
Speaker 4: Interesting, Well, yeah, neither one of you probably has. The wise,
Speaker 4: you probably be on the other side of the whole thing.
Speaker 3: If you've had a personal experience with God. I would
Speaker 3: suggest some kind of therapy.
Speaker 4: Well, the betterments of my life. I don't at this time.
Speaker 2: I mean, the thing is, though, like let's say you did.
Speaker 2: I have an experience.
Speaker 1: Nobody, no one else has access to this experience, Like
Speaker 1: no one else heard or seen the same thing that
Speaker 1: you did.
Speaker 2: Right right, you are the decider of this, like, let me,
Speaker 2: let me let me ask you. Let me ask you
Speaker 2: a question. When you when you.
Speaker 1: Pray and seek forgiveness from your gud, do you get
Speaker 1: a confirmation that says you've been forgiven.
Speaker 4: In a way. Yes, they're not all the same, but
Speaker 4: I do get that same confirmation.
Speaker 2: What's the confirmation that you get from heaven?
Speaker 4: Sometimes it'll be uh, something small, like watching the flower
Speaker 4: bloom and that gilt rushes away from me. Sometimes it
Speaker 4: will be something big, and it'll be the person themselves
Speaker 4: coming to me and forgiving me for the actions that
Speaker 4: have done against them.
Speaker 3: Hold on, are you seriously suggesting that? Like you see
Speaker 3: a flower like bloom and you're like, oh, God has
Speaker 3: forgiven me for that thing that I did. It was
Speaker 3: it was it was a deplorable thing. I murdered a baby.
Speaker 3: But you know God made the flower bloom, so obviously
Speaker 3: God is given as a okay for that big old
Speaker 3: sorry that I gave him, or or it is killing
Speaker 3: a baby in this particular respect. Does that require something bigger,
Speaker 3: like maybe like a fucking plane in the sky that
Speaker 3: where God's like, cool, bro, you're good?
Speaker 4: Uh Not that that would be outside of the realm
Speaker 4: of what my God can do. Oftentimes in those situations,
Speaker 4: I would actually not know, seeing as how I do
Speaker 4: my best to follow his will and his word. I
Speaker 4: don't commit any major you know, full pause with humans.
Speaker 4: How do you know?
Speaker 3: Well, you could, you could commit a faux pas with
Speaker 3: with with God, and he could just be getting madder
Speaker 3: and madder.
Speaker 4: Yet he continues to bless me with every new day.
Speaker 3: He blesses you. I guess you mean he wakes you
Speaker 3: up every day.
Speaker 4: Well, whether or not she does. The Earth is still spinning,
Speaker 4: the sun is still arising, there's still oxygen on the planet.
Speaker 4: There are many many ways that he could take away
Speaker 4: that which sustains us.
Speaker 3: And how do you know that God keeps the air
Speaker 3: on the Earth and the Earth spinning?
Speaker 4: Well, I mean have you tried.
Speaker 3: Have I tried? Have I tried stopping the earth?
Speaker 4: I mean, have you tried spinning it? Have you tried
Speaker 4: keeping the air contained to the planet.
Speaker 3: I don't have to do any of those things because
Speaker 3: physics exists, and I understand how physics works. Do you
Speaker 3: know how physics works?
Speaker 4: I could be a liar and say yes.
Speaker 3: Okay, so it's just an argument from ignorance that you
Speaker 3: don't know how physics works, so therefore God.
Speaker 4: Not necessarily. No, I don't know that my news of
Speaker 4: how airspace chapped to a planet, but.
Speaker 3: I do know that it's gravity.
Speaker 4: To the grace of God, it will for longer.
Speaker 3: No, No, where's where so in in in the in
Speaker 3: the process of of like mass or matter bending space
Speaker 3: time and causing gravity to happen. Where is God in that?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 3: Where does does that process need? Like a wizard?
Speaker 4: I don't know what you mean by a wizard, but
Speaker 4: certainly you know obviously I believe that He set those
Speaker 4: in place to kind of governed uh, that which we
Speaker 4: call reality.
Speaker 3: No, I mean so what what I what I mean?
Speaker 3: In space time? So space time is displaced by mass,
Speaker 3: you know, matter, and that causes gravity what we experience
Speaker 3: as gravity. None of that requires any kind of magical
Speaker 3: like jews or magical aspect to it. Like, That's just
Speaker 3: how reality operates. So in order for you to say
Speaker 3: that God is necessary for that to happen, you would
Speaker 3: need to provide some kind of grounding that that makes
Speaker 3: God necessary for it. All you've stated is just the
Speaker 3: claim that God is necessary, instead of actually building a
Speaker 3: bridge to establish that. Could you somehow establish that God
Speaker 3: is necessary for gravity to exist?
Speaker 4: My favorite question absolutely Genesis.
Speaker 3: You get asked this multiple times.
Speaker 2: No, he doesn't.
Speaker 3: How can this be your favorite question? Like this is
Speaker 3: the first time I've ever asked this question before, Like
Speaker 3: normally it's the water cycle. Grad Thank you. Can you
Speaker 3: explain to me how God creates it's gravity or how
Speaker 3: He's made gravity or something like that, just like fucking no,
Speaker 3: he can't, John stop please?
Speaker 4: No, I mean all you really need to know is
Speaker 4: that gravity is still a theory.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, I think I think I think Trek
Speaker 1: has had enough uh fun today.
Speaker 3: To wait, has Tarik had enough or have you had
Speaker 3: enough drink? Uh Tarke? I really think that you need
Speaker 3: to go back and research some basic science ship because
Speaker 3: like there's no need for a wizard, which I mean
Speaker 3: I was gonna ask you to distinguish between God and
Speaker 3: a wizard, but I mean we we are getting to
Speaker 3: the end of the show here.
Speaker 4: Okay, Well, what did you do Hopefully next time you guys.
Speaker 3: Will have you I've been hearing you. I don't know
Speaker 3: what you mean ears to hear like I've can you
Speaker 3: see me on the TV? I've got ears like right here.
Speaker 3: I don't know what you mean by ears to hear?
Speaker 3: Think or do you have ears?
Speaker 2: It looks like you got somebody's going to get an
Speaker 2: ear full when I, like, I have I have ears?
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, yep, Trek, are you still there?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 2: Calls into my show a line?
Speaker 4: Or does he?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 15: So?
Speaker 3: Is he a troll?
Speaker 2: Huh No, he's he's something else, something else.
Speaker 3: He's definitely something else. All right, Tarik, we are here
Speaker 3: at the end.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 3: Next time we will be sure to I guess have
Speaker 3: our hearing ears on instead of whatever then we put
Speaker 3: on today. But yeah, I hope that you'll call in again.
Speaker 3: There will be a new set of hosts next week,
Speaker 3: and hopefully maybe you can convince them of, you know,
Speaker 3: God not being a wizard. Okay, see you later there, Tarik.
Speaker 3: You have a good day. What I didn't even bring
Speaker 3: a tie?
Speaker 8: Just yell at Dan.
Speaker 3: You can hear us outside Dan. We're summoning Dan. We
Speaker 3: know you can hear us.
Speaker 8: We need the board to do that in here, it's
Speaker 8: a spirit.
Speaker 2: He's out there. He's ignoring us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh wait, there, you guys.
Speaker 8: Really on for an extra.
Speaker 3: We got We got on the car, so we're having
Speaker 3: fun with him.
Speaker 16: But how he took He took like ten seconds to respond,
Speaker 16: but it sounded like he wasn't using that time to think.
Speaker 1: I know, he just sat there like unfortunately anytime he
Speaker 1: calls in, like he just randomly talks about stuff and
Speaker 1: then he makes like really bad dad jokes in the middle.
Speaker 2: I was like, he doesn't think you can relate to that.
Speaker 2: He's a nice guy. I keep him around, but he's
Speaker 2: a nice guy.
Speaker 3: Does he always use a voice changer?
Speaker 2: Or is it like I never noticed that he was
Speaker 2: using a voice he'sus a voice.
Speaker 12: I think his action started changing halfway through the car.
Speaker 2: His accent changed.
Speaker 3: No, I don't know. It sounded like a voice changer
Speaker 3: to me.
Speaker 8: It sounded like it was like an I.
Speaker 2: Think he might be scared of like his family.
Speaker 3: Maybe.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: If you're watching, I'm sorry, what are y'all doing in here?
Speaker 3: We don't know you called me what.
Speaker 8: We came in because we wanted to thank everybody we're
Speaker 8: here this weekend, just real.
Speaker 4: Quick, and.
Speaker 17: We often get accused of never getting anything done, never
Speaker 17: making a difference in anybody's life. This was dropped off
Speaker 17: by somebody that you met with and I'm not gonna
Speaker 17: say her name, but the person who was there with Yes,
Speaker 17: she specifically was so moved by your compassion and everything
Speaker 17: that she wanted you to have these. But yeah, and
Speaker 17: once again, hey, uh, these are the people who have
Speaker 17: been kind enough to work with us, not just on
Speaker 17: the show today, but throughout the entire weekend. Please give
Speaker 17: them another round applause. I love you all, probably equally,
Speaker 17: maybe not, but you know a little more, Kelly, you
Speaker 17: among you know who I love? Are all right? But everybody,
Speaker 17: thank you for coming out, and we're gonna go ahead
Speaker 17: and close this thing out. I will turn it over
Speaker 17: to the pros and.
Speaker 8: Can I just say a special things to all the
Speaker 8: other people, all the volunteers that really help.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there, the crew is awesome.
Speaker 8: Yeah really seriously, thank you to the crew. Amazing, amazing weekend.
Speaker 8: Everybody needs to come.
Speaker 2: Out next year, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: I want to say thank you to members of my
Speaker 1: online community who some flew out here, some live out here.
Speaker 1: Thank you all so much for supporting and being out.
Speaker 1: I got do that, got with my broach. We're broach
Speaker 1: buddies now, all right, so we're done.
Speaker 2: I can't keep it up. Yeah, so.
Speaker 12: Uh huh.
Speaker 2: What's the outro?
Speaker 15: Oh?
Speaker 1: Well, thank y'all so much for being here today, everybody.
Speaker 2: We'll see y'all next week.
Speaker 3: By thanks.
Speaker 4: Watch yeah nine, Yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Don't have a different places I go.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I got my stuff out there.
Speaker 16: Watch Talking In Live son days at one pm Central
Speaker 16: and call into the show at five ve two
Speaker 3: Four two, or connect to the show online at a
Speaker 3: C eight dot show slash call Hall