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<v Speaker 1>Coming to you from the dining room table at East

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<v Speaker 1>Barbary Lane. Welcome to a special episode of Full Circle

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<v Speaker 1>the podcast. I am your host, Charles Tyson Jr. And

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<v Speaker 1>I am delighted to be sitting down with our guest today.

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<v Speaker 1>He is a wonderful author of science fiction in the

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<v Speaker 1>young adult milieu Escoor, and his new book is delightful.

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<v Speaker 1>It is called The Brightness Between Us, and it is

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<v Speaker 1>a sequel to what I feel is going to be

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<v Speaker 1>an ongoing saga. Elliott Schefer is in the building. Hi, Elliott,

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<v Speaker 1>how are you?

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<v Speaker 2>Hi? I'm great, Thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for being had by us.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a sophisticated set of grammar, right there, nailed it.

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<v Speaker 1>So, Yes, So, your new baby is entitled The Brightness

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<v Speaker 1>between Us, and it is a sequel. But first, why

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<v Speaker 1>don't you tell us what's in store for us in

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<v Speaker 1>the story overall and in this particular installment.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So, The Darkness Outside is a science fiction novel

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<v Speaker 2>I wrote back in twenty twenty one. It is a romantic,

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<v Speaker 2>gay science fiction story about It takes place four hundred

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<v Speaker 2>years in the future, and the first astronaut to settle

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<v Speaker 2>a moon outside of Saturn has gone missing. Her distress

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<v Speaker 2>beacon went off and then no one has heard from her,

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<v Speaker 2>and so the two remaining countries on Earth scramble rescue

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<v Speaker 2>mission to go rescue her, and it's may have to

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<v Speaker 2>put one astronaut from each of these warring countries on board.

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<v Speaker 2>So these two boys are enemies of each other, sworn

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<v Speaker 2>enemies of each other, but stimate they have to work

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<v Speaker 2>together to do this rescue mission. But as they approach

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<v Speaker 2>the moon of Saturn, they discover that the ship has

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<v Speaker 2>been lying to them and that their mission is not

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<v Speaker 2>at all what they were told, and that it's actually

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<v Speaker 2>something much different. And so by the end of the book,

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<v Speaker 2>these two boys have traveled across the Milky Way to

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<v Speaker 2>settle a new planet, and they are the future of

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<v Speaker 2>humanity because war is destroyed Earth, and at the end

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<v Speaker 2>of the first novel they settle on this planet and

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<v Speaker 2>begin a new life, to begin new civilization. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>kind of like a literal version of it's Adam and Steve,

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<v Speaker 2>not Adam and Eve. And then the brightness between us

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<v Speaker 2>picks up sixteen years in the future and they are

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<v Speaker 2>now thirty something dads, these two boys, and they have

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<v Speaker 2>two sixteen year old kids, Owl and Yarrow, and they're

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<v Speaker 2>trying to scramble together a life on this distant planet.

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<v Speaker 2>But there's more than they like. We don't we haven't

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<v Speaker 2>met any aliens or other creatures around, but there's plenty

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<v Speaker 2>to be discovered on the other side of the mountains

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<v Speaker 2>around their settlement about what's actually going on in this planet.

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<v Speaker 1>I love it. Yeah, the book has a constant sense

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<v Speaker 1>of wonder and discovery about it, and it's it's very cool.

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<v Speaker 1>I dig it. One of the things that warmed my heart.

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<v Speaker 1>I just love how the kids referred to their parents

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<v Speaker 1>as dad and father. I was like, it's a nice

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<v Speaker 1>way to to navigate that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Originally I had them using their parents' first names

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<v Speaker 2>because they're at their point of view characters, and they

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<v Speaker 2>kept calling them Kodiak and Ambrose, and it just felt weird,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, just like when kids first named their parents,

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<v Speaker 2>Like it can sort of startle you, right, But yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, what drew you to science fiction? Have you always

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<v Speaker 1>been a fan?

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<v Speaker 2>I've been a fan of science fiction, and yes, when

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<v Speaker 2>I was a teenager, I loved two thousand and one

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<v Speaker 2>and its follow up novels. I am a huge fan

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<v Speaker 2>of Battlecar Galactica, the reboot that started in two thousand

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<v Speaker 2>and four, And I think, you know, there's just something

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<v Speaker 2>science fiction does, this crazy thing which it takes things

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<v Speaker 2>that were concerned about like social social questions that we

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<v Speaker 2>have about how we relate to each other in our

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<v Speaker 2>contemporary world, and it puts them in a new context

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<v Speaker 2>where you can kind of see them a new and

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<v Speaker 2>reassess it. And I think that's always been a really

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<v Speaker 2>powerful selling point of that genre, just like how Star

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<v Speaker 2>Trek back in the nineteen sixties was a way to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about race for a country that was unwilling to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about race. They were doing it through this diverse

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<v Speaker 2>crew that was meeting, like Captain Kirk kept falling in

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<v Speaker 2>love with various aliens, you know, and so it was like,

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<v Speaker 2>you're like, the first interracial kiss was on Star Trek.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think there's a way in which it kind

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<v Speaker 2>of can push forward and in a way that contemporary

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<v Speaker 2>aratives not necessarily aren't equipped to do, can actually look

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<v Speaker 2>and really examine what's going on. And I think for

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<v Speaker 2>me reading these science fiction stories, I never even hoped

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<v Speaker 2>to find an LGBTQ character in them, right, And that

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<v Speaker 2>felt like a real kind of loss, like I would

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<v Speaker 2>have loved to see myself in one of these stories.

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<v Speaker 2>And so in the darkness outside us and the brightness

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<v Speaker 2>between us, it's very much trying to like fill a

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<v Speaker 2>hole that was there, not just around LGBT representation, but also,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, sci fi kind of deservedly gets a reputation

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes as being a little bit chilly, like it's kind

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<v Speaker 2>of all about the ideas and not about characters and feeling.

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<v Speaker 2>And I wanted to kind of also as much as

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<v Speaker 2>I could, like just create characters and a romance that

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<v Speaker 2>would really pull people in. And so there's a way

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<v Speaker 2>in which these boys are each other's only the only

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<v Speaker 2>other humans in each other's lives because they're trapped on

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<v Speaker 2>a spaceship together, and so there's a way in which

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<v Speaker 2>they discover that connection is the only way to survive.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that's we all live a version of

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<v Speaker 2>that story where you realize even with all your armor

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<v Speaker 2>and you're saying, like I'm good, I'm fine on my own,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't need anyone, screw my families, screw my friends, whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>Like we all learn like you do need someone, it

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't have to be your family that you were born

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<v Speaker 2>with but you do we are we only exist in

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<v Speaker 2>emotionally healthy ways if we're in a relationship with someone

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<v Speaker 2>of any sort not romantic.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's that is one thing that you know. I

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<v Speaker 1>also am a fan of science fiction, and you're right,

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<v Speaker 1>it does tend to be a little cold and clinical

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<v Speaker 1>and sterile at times, and that is an element in

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<v Speaker 1>your work that I do appreciate, that sense of emotional

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<v Speaker 1>awareness and intimacy, and you know, yeah, I think it

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<v Speaker 1>is safe to say that that comes directly from you know,

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<v Speaker 1>our queer sensibility and the longing for connection and belonging

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<v Speaker 1>and togetherness and family, et cetera, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we have to work, you know. We all had

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<v Speaker 2>to survive and upbringing where we weren't necessarily able to

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<v Speaker 2>be our authentic selves, or most of us did. So

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of our adulthood is about, you know, keeping

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<v Speaker 2>whatever armor is useful, but also removing whatever pieces we

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<v Speaker 2>can to become vulnerable to each other and not you know,

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<v Speaker 2>not always because I think you know, I certainly if

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<v Speaker 2>you look at like the wreckage of all my relationship

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<v Speaker 2>from my twenties, I just was not ready to like

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<v Speaker 2>sort of say like, oh, I need you, I need help,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like those kind of things. I was like

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<v Speaker 2>just always trying to like, no, I'm fine, Like you're emotional,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm not feeling anything right now. And that was

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<v Speaker 2>all the result of growing up in the closet and

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<v Speaker 2>feeling like I had to like be walled off from

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<v Speaker 2>needing people, relying on them, or being my full self

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<v Speaker 2>with them. And a lot of my work as an

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<v Speaker 2>adult was figuring out how to become authentic again, Like

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<v Speaker 2>I needed to do that early on in my life

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<v Speaker 2>to survive, but I don't need to now, So it's

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<v Speaker 2>a it's very much. Something I wanted to talk about

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<v Speaker 2>in the book too, is to explore how we connect

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<v Speaker 2>with other people. And it's like the hardest task of

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<v Speaker 2>our lives, I think, to really get full connection. Like

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<v Speaker 2>I think human relationships are simple on one end and

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<v Speaker 2>really tricky when you look at it through another end,

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<v Speaker 2>Like there's a lot to You're always learning about how

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<v Speaker 2>to be a good partner.

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<v Speaker 1>Whoever you're with, and there's never just one answer, and

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<v Speaker 1>that one answer doesn't always stay the same.

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<v Speaker 2>Answer yep, yep, absolutely.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know then there's also that whole like you know,

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<v Speaker 1>feeling of where the importance of love is. And you

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<v Speaker 1>talked about like, you know, building the armor and breaking

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<v Speaker 1>down the armor, and sometimes there's elements of like, you know, well,

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<v Speaker 1>if they love me, then what does that say about them?

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<v Speaker 2>And oh, yeah, I had that relationship too. Was that

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<v Speaker 2>There's some quote I think it was Whatody Allen and said,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want to be a part of any club

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<v Speaker 2>that would happen to.

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<v Speaker 1>Me as a member. Yeah, exactly right.

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<v Speaker 2>And definitely you know like some people like if someone

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<v Speaker 2>loves them, then there must be something wrong with them, right,

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<v Speaker 2>so they find a way to talk themselves out of

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<v Speaker 2>that relationship. And that's a really self defeating mindset, it is.

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<v Speaker 1>And when you said relationships in the twenties, a part

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<v Speaker 1>of me just cringe because the entire ones, the mistakes

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<v Speaker 1>we made. It's a wonder I'm still here.

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<v Speaker 2>But when you don't even know what mistakes you're making,

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<v Speaker 2>that's part of the problem. Like once you're conscious of

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<v Speaker 2>you're trying not to make, but you're making all the

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<v Speaker 2>subconscious ones, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>So and how do we learn from our mistakes when

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<v Speaker 1>we think we already know every damn thing. Yeah, it's

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<v Speaker 1>a wonder we make it out a lot. Well, actually

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<v Speaker 1>we don't.

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<v Speaker 2>Well yeah, well, and the darkness side is I don't

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<v Speaker 2>want to reveal the plot to us, but it has

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<v Speaker 2>half way through as a major thing happens where the

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<v Speaker 2>boys mission is not the actual mission and they end

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<v Speaker 2>up kind of like in a situation where they can

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<v Speaker 2>restart their relationship with each other after thousands of years

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<v Speaker 2>go back, and so they leave messages to their future

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<v Speaker 2>selves about how to be good partners for each other.

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<v Speaker 2>And that was partly about you know, when you think

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<v Speaker 2>about some of those people before I was equipped to

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<v Speaker 2>be a good relationship partner. You know, I looking back,

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<v Speaker 2>I probably knowing what I knew now, it could that

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<v Speaker 2>relationship could have worked out. You know, I've been with

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<v Speaker 2>my husband now for fifteen years, so I'm not actively

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<v Speaker 2>seeking any of that, but I think back on some

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<v Speaker 2>of those and like, it was me. It wasn't him.

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<v Speaker 2>It was me in some of those situations, and like,

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<v Speaker 2>but the scar tissues there. There's often you can return

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<v Speaker 2>to relationship, but sometimes the hurts go too deep and

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<v Speaker 2>you just can't. And I was kind of thinking about,

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<v Speaker 2>like what if you could have a redo And not

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<v Speaker 2>to reveal too much, but the story of darkness outside

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<v Speaker 2>is kind of exploring that, like, what, let's give it

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<v Speaker 2>a second go and see how we can be better.

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<v Speaker 1>Nice and you know, going to dig into that little

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<v Speaker 1>bit more in a moment, but but yeah, I was

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<v Speaker 1>just thinking, like, you know, there are a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>stories that are quote unquote universal, but I'm sitting here

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<v Speaker 1>thinking there's just some stories that can only be told

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<v Speaker 1>from a queer sensibility and a queer point of view,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, because not everyone really has that shorthand and

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<v Speaker 1>and that approach to relationships and the emotional intelligence that

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<v Speaker 1>can come through it. And it's interesting when other people

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<v Speaker 1>try to tell our stories and it just doesn't feel right.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>The legacy of science fiction too, where we have these

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<v Speaker 2>astronauts who don't have emotional needs like they are Like

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<v Speaker 2>our own Space program was we just drafted our first

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<v Speaker 2>astronauts for all Air Force pilots that were just swapped

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<v Speaker 2>over to become astronauts instead, and really they were taught

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<v Speaker 2>to like be unemotional, to like drive out emotional needs,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was thought that that's what made the perfect astronaut.

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<v Speaker 2>But now like we have a very different approach to it,

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<v Speaker 2>and you realize like they're trapped in this environment, in

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<v Speaker 2>close quarters and high tension environments with other people, and like,

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<v Speaker 2>having emotional intelligence is crucial. It's not like that's something

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<v Speaker 2>that we have to avoid emotions. It's instead it's about

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<v Speaker 2>being expressive and being in touch with what you're feeling

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<v Speaker 2>and also what other people are feeling around you. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's it's kind of time science fiction caught

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<v Speaker 2>up to the fact that, like, it's not like emotions

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<v Speaker 2>are secondary to survival. They are crucial to surviving.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, because otherwise, you know, we could just have an

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<v Speaker 1>entire story about robots.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, or robotic people, which some of the sci fi

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<v Speaker 2>classics they are like their characters, but they're not really

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<v Speaker 2>like they're just you know, sort of automatons going through

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<v Speaker 2>this storyline exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>So something very exciting your Your first book, The Darkness

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<v Speaker 1>Outside Us, is in development to be a feature film. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>that's one exciting thing. And the other exciting thing is

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<v Speaker 1>it's in development with Elliott Page's production company, Page Boy Productions,

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<v Speaker 1>which that's so many cool things wrapped them inside of

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<v Speaker 1>each other.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I was delighted when I got that call, because

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Page Boy Productions is doing really exciting stuffy.

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<v Speaker 2>They're looking to make commercial, broadly accessible movies that are

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<v Speaker 2>from and about marginalized people and getting as many people

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<v Speaker 2>on the team who are you know, trans gay by

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<v Speaker 2>and just really shaking up who's making movies and who

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<v Speaker 2>movies are about. And so it's been really exciting to

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<v Speaker 2>work with them. And then we do I can't get

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<v Speaker 2>it going to the detail because I've been announced, but

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<v Speaker 2>there's a major studio that's stepped up in a big

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<v Speaker 2>way to fund it. So that's you know, I sort

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<v Speaker 2>of feel like Charlie Brown with the football round film stuff.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure I'll run towards it and Lucy will find

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<v Speaker 2>a way to like pull the football away. But right

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<v Speaker 2>now it looks really promising that we will actually have

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<v Speaker 2>a movie of darkness Outside is sooner rather than later,

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<v Speaker 2>so that would be super exciting.

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<v Speaker 1>I love that. Have you gotten a chance to have

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<v Speaker 1>direct conversations with Elliott?

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<v Speaker 2>So I've been talking to the head of Page Boy Productions,

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<v Speaker 2>Matt Jordan Smith, and he's been my main, my main

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<v Speaker 2>go to I'm going to be in la next month,

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<v Speaker 2>so it's possible that I'll be eating with Elliott, But

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<v Speaker 2>so far we haven't had a chance to have a conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure what a group of Elliott's is called.

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<v Speaker 2>It's probably some collective noun for it, but we do

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<v Speaker 2>spell it differently. I'm one L and Elliott is two ls, so.

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<v Speaker 1>In my head it's elle Ocean.

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<v Speaker 2>But I like it. Yeah, that's good.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I love I love that. I love that mission

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<v Speaker 1>statement of the production company. And you're definitely fits right

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<v Speaker 1>in there. Especially in this time of I get so

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<v Speaker 1>tired of hearing about hearing people say why do we

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<v Speaker 1>need to care about the sexuality of the characters, Why

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<v Speaker 1>do we need to know? Why do we need to care?

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<v Speaker 1>Why does sexuality have to be put put on display

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<v Speaker 1>as it were, to which I usually then just post

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<v Speaker 1>screenshots of their fase, you know, kissing like Batman and

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<v Speaker 1>Catwoman and things like that. It's like you're not thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about it, but trust me, it's always there.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Like straight is a sexuality. It's not like that

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<v Speaker 2>is a an empty space that isn't a sexuality. It

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<v Speaker 2>is a different one.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I mean, judging from stories of a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of women, I know maybe you know, but but no,

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<v Speaker 1>that's wonderful. Yeah, talk to me, Yeah, talk to me

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<v Speaker 1>a little about your feelings on that, because you know

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<v Speaker 1>representation is crucial.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well so I was. You know, I don't love

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<v Speaker 2>the phrase like the character just happens to be gay

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<v Speaker 2>or buyer trans I think it's not.

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<v Speaker 1>That's so dismissive.

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<v Speaker 2>No one just happens to be their sexuality, right, like

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<v Speaker 2>it influences who you are and how your life is.

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<v Speaker 2>But at the same time, I definitely there's a place

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<v Speaker 2>for books that are about being LGBTQ. But Darkness Outside

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<v Speaker 2>As and Brightness between Us isn't about that as much

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<v Speaker 2>as it's just part of these characters' lives and who

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<v Speaker 2>they are. And I think we need both kinds of stories,

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<v Speaker 2>one where it's about that identity in other words, that

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<v Speaker 2>is less central. And I actually, with the screenwriter for

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<v Speaker 2>Darkness Outside As, we did a co project where we

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<v Speaker 2>read this book on the making of two thousand and one,

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<v Speaker 2>sort of thinking about other sci fi movies and what

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<v Speaker 2>we could learn from it. And I was reading that

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<v Speaker 2>book and Arthur C. Clark, who wrote the novel two

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<v Speaker 2>thousand and one, was gay and live with a man

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<v Speaker 2>in Sri Lanka.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think I knew that.

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<v Speaker 2>I know I didn't either until I read this and

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<v Speaker 2>I realized, like the characters in two thousand and one

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<v Speaker 2>to two men on a voyage, and they're not really

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<v Speaker 2>you know someone one of them has their wife back home,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's not really their sexuality is and part of

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<v Speaker 2>their characterization. And I see this kind of artful dodge

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<v Speaker 2>that Arthur cy Clark did in the sixties when you

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<v Speaker 2>wrote two thousand and one to sort of neither make

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<v Speaker 2>them gay but also like not have their straight sexuality

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<v Speaker 2>a big part of their characters. But as a result,

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<v Speaker 2>it sort of feels like there's like a little missing

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<v Speaker 2>piece somewhere in that story of this human connection. And

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<v Speaker 2>so you know, I would love to think of the

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<v Speaker 2>sort of gay version of two thousand and one. And

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<v Speaker 2>in a way, Darkness Outside is kind of is you know,

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<v Speaker 2>this front tense experience of being locked into a spaceship,

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<v Speaker 2>like you can't leave right there is no like I'm

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<v Speaker 2>out of here, we're done, Like you're like then you're

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<v Speaker 2>in the vacuum space and it's not good for you. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>they really have to figure out their relationship and their

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<v Speaker 2>and their love. And I have two different the main characters,

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<v Speaker 2>like one of them is very kind of progressive and

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<v Speaker 2>really sort of comes from a country where they speak

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<v Speaker 2>they don't even use, you know, labels for people's sexuality

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<v Speaker 2>or sexual identities. It's all just much more fluid. And

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<v Speaker 2>the other one is from a much more repressive, patriarchal

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<v Speaker 2>old school society and he's more buttoned down. And so

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<v Speaker 2>just to give us sort of different ways of looking

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<v Speaker 2>at how we approach our own sexualities through these two characters,

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<v Speaker 2>to see, you know, we all have varying relationships and

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<v Speaker 2>of comfort with our own who we are as people.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and that's that's an interesting dichotomy with people because

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<v Speaker 1>we have those of us that are like, why do

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<v Speaker 1>we need labels? Why do we need to make things

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<v Speaker 1>a thing? Why can't we just be? And then other

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<v Speaker 1>people like, but if there's no order, then then how

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<v Speaker 1>do I know how to be?

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<v Speaker 2>M h. Yeah, Well it's I find I have both

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<v Speaker 2>feelings at the same time, you know, like I don't

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<v Speaker 2>want to have to self identify or to to think

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<v Speaker 2>of the label for other people. But it's also a

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<v Speaker 2>really quick shorthand that's useful in a lot of circumstances

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<v Speaker 2>to be able to say, like, here's who I am,

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<v Speaker 2>and here's here's my descriptors. It is it can catch

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<v Speaker 2>people up really quickly, whereas it takes more work if

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<v Speaker 2>you're going to avoid labels to really get across your identity.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and now that I said that, I am thinking

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<v Speaker 1>about like the new generation and it does get a

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<v Speaker 1>little chaotic. It's like, you know, I have to learn

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<v Speaker 1>a whole new language, and it's like I am always

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<v Speaker 1>going to be respectful of my people, but you know,

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<v Speaker 1>certain things like do I really have to say Zen's are?

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<v Speaker 1>Can I just say your name?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? That one is it's hard for just the brain

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<v Speaker 2>to process it. But I do appreciate, you know, the

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<v Speaker 2>ways in which sort of these very specific identities like

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<v Speaker 2>sort of allow people to to quickly identify even if

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<v Speaker 2>they're their sexuality or their sexual identity is really complicated. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's useful and it's it's good to have

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<v Speaker 2>a broader set of terms, but it does mean, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>there will always be a term that I'm not familiar with, right,

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<v Speaker 2>So I just hope for patients and grace from people

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<v Speaker 2>that are teaching me about how they identify when it

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<v Speaker 2>when I don't yet know what they're what their.

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<v Speaker 1>Adjectives mean, right, and then you have people that are like,

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<v Speaker 1>my gender is a warm summer night, and it's like, no,

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<v Speaker 1>we're not doing that. I'm sorry, log.

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<v Speaker 2>Off, but well, I think I think there's like two

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<v Speaker 2>sides of you want gender to be really like sort

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<v Speaker 2>of taken seriously, and sometimes it can feel like it's not.

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<v Speaker 2>It's being taken not seriously, but at the same time,

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<v Speaker 2>like it's great to be playful or on gender too, right,

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<v Speaker 2>like have you know like that we can have it

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't have to be a serious concept all the time, right,

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<v Speaker 2>Like we can we can kind of screw it up

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<v Speaker 2>and be fluid and gender queer.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think pro hopefully, Yeah, definitely. And of course,

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<v Speaker 1>and to backtrack real quick, I was thinking about two

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<v Speaker 1>thousand and one and the queer sensibility behind it that

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't realize was there. Hall is kind of a

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<v Speaker 1>shady queen.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, you're all seeing eye of hell.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, now that I think about it, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I rewatched it and they're they're very handsome

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00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:29.559
<v Speaker 2>astronauts too that on that voyage. I mean, Kubrick the

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00:21:29.680 --> 00:21:32.880
<v Speaker 2>director wasn't wasn't gay from anything I can tell or buy,

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<v Speaker 2>but there definitely wasn't interest in casting very beautiful people

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<v Speaker 2>for those roles.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and you know two thousand and one is a

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<v Speaker 1>visually striking world. Oh anyway, speaking of how so AI

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<v Speaker 1>is a very present component of your work in these stories.

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<v Speaker 1>So how much of that concept do you put what

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<v Speaker 1>you want to see? And how much like where we are?

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<v Speaker 1>Because the whole concept of AI for me is very fraught.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it is for a lot of us.

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<v Speaker 2>I you know, writing Darkness Outside as I wrote it

404
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<v Speaker 2>in twenty nineteen, and at that time a I was

405
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<v Speaker 2>being mentioned. But I was a little leery of having

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<v Speaker 2>even saying that the phrase artificial intelligence in the book

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<v Speaker 2>because I was worried it's going to be like a

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<v Speaker 2>fad that we wouldn't be talking about it. And then

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<v Speaker 2>obviously now we're really talking about it a lot more.

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<v Speaker 2>That was not a worry I needed to have. But

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<v Speaker 2>I think at this point, because of our diet of

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<v Speaker 2>other science fiction stories, we're very ready to have the

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<v Speaker 2>kind of evil AI interpretation. And I definitely play with

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<v Speaker 2>it in the Darkness Outside as there's the ship's operating

415
00:22:58.359 --> 00:23:04.839
<v Speaker 2>system they call it OS is shady and it's their

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<v Speaker 2>true mission is kept a secret. From them by the ship.

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<v Speaker 2>But once they know the true mission and they are

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<v Speaker 2>heading off to settle this new planet, the AI becomes

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<v Speaker 2>an ally and it becomes when they land, it becomes

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<v Speaker 2>kind of the third parent for their kids. It's just

421
00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:22.519
<v Speaker 2>like sort of gentle gardener of this new civilization. And

422
00:23:23.039 --> 00:23:26.799
<v Speaker 2>I kind of liked playing with our expectations around it

423
00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:30.480
<v Speaker 2>that it doesn't have to be Skynet and Terminator. That

424
00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:33.240
<v Speaker 2>there is a way in which AI might be as

425
00:23:33.279 --> 00:23:36.200
<v Speaker 2>it gets more and more complicated, might be emotionally complicated too,

426
00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:39.720
<v Speaker 2>and capable of good things and bad things. And we've

427
00:23:39.759 --> 00:23:42.240
<v Speaker 2>kind of see that in our every day there's you know,

428
00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:45.200
<v Speaker 2>a lot of us are worried about the influence that'll

429
00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:48.720
<v Speaker 2>have on this information, and you know, students plagiarizing essays

430
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:52.519
<v Speaker 2>from chat GPT. But at the same time, it's, yeah,

431
00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:55.599
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it'd be hard to resist. But at the

432
00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:57.160
<v Speaker 2>same time, it's you can see all the small ways

433
00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:01.119
<v Speaker 2>in which is facilitating everyday life and useful, useful ways.

434
00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:04.920
<v Speaker 2>So I think it can be both at the same time. Right,

435
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:06.559
<v Speaker 2>we have to kind of be able to hold both

436
00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:09.319
<v Speaker 2>those in our head. It might be force a good.

437
00:24:09.119 --> 00:24:15.799
<v Speaker 1>Imbad exactly, and you know, I am all about the

438
00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:20.359
<v Speaker 1>advancement of science and technology. In fact, I'm low key

439
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:25.319
<v Speaker 1>obsessed with it. And you know, part of me is

440
00:24:25.559 --> 00:24:31.319
<v Speaker 1>very excited with the way that AI is integrating itself

441
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:35.079
<v Speaker 1>into our real life. And then part of me is like,

442
00:24:35.640 --> 00:24:39.519
<v Speaker 1>you know, the people that are creating these things, I

443
00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:41.839
<v Speaker 1>know they read the same books and saw the same

444
00:24:41.880 --> 00:24:44.240
<v Speaker 1>movies that I did. So it's like, why are we

445
00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:47.720
<v Speaker 1>trying to like do certain things to prove that we

446
00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:52.599
<v Speaker 1>can when we already have a not good example of

447
00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:55.920
<v Speaker 1>what could happen. You know, it's like, why are we

448
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:58.440
<v Speaker 1>doing this to ourselves? And why do we have that

449
00:24:58.519 --> 00:25:00.000
<v Speaker 1>impulse to do that to ourselves?

450
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:04.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, when it's this a mad scientist approach where because

451
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:07.359
<v Speaker 2>you can do it, you should do it, which you

452
00:25:07.400 --> 00:25:09.519
<v Speaker 2>trust that someone else will step in the way if

453
00:25:09.559 --> 00:25:11.640
<v Speaker 2>it's going to do wrong, that it's not your responsibility

454
00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:14.319
<v Speaker 2>as the creator of these things. And I think we're

455
00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.240
<v Speaker 2>realizing that governments have been slow to get a handle

456
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:20.680
<v Speaker 2>on how to put guardrails on AI, and in a

457
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:23.000
<v Speaker 2>lot of ways it might be might be too late.

458
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:28.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, That's why whenever I ask chat GPT to write

459
00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:31.200
<v Speaker 1>something for me, I always make sure to say please

460
00:25:31.240 --> 00:25:31.880
<v Speaker 1>and thank you.

461
00:25:33.319 --> 00:25:35.599
<v Speaker 2>Because you want to survive the robot apocalypse.

462
00:25:36.039 --> 00:25:38.160
<v Speaker 1>I'm one of the good ones. Please thank you.

463
00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:41.559
<v Speaker 2>That's right. I was just learning today that people give

464
00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:46.799
<v Speaker 2>names to their rumpus, and I've never named my robot vacuum.

465
00:25:46.880 --> 00:25:49.920
<v Speaker 2>So I think I'm worried that I'll be killed during

466
00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:53.920
<v Speaker 2>the robot uprising. Son, I'm gonna name it really quick

467
00:25:53.960 --> 00:25:55.200
<v Speaker 2>so that it keeps me alive.

468
00:25:55.720 --> 00:25:59.759
<v Speaker 1>Oh, now you have manners, uh huh, now that it's useful.

469
00:26:03.279 --> 00:26:04.200
<v Speaker 1>I love it. I love it.

470
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:04.720
<v Speaker 2>I love it.

471
00:26:05.000 --> 00:26:11.359
<v Speaker 1>So what do you do? You see the brightness between

472
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:17.519
<v Speaker 1>us being part two of an ongoing saga, I think.

473
00:26:17.559 --> 00:26:21.160
<v Speaker 2>So I'm a little leery around sequels in general, because

474
00:26:21.440 --> 00:26:24.279
<v Speaker 2>for every good sequel, there's probably four or five really

475
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:29.000
<v Speaker 2>terrible sequels out there. And you know, I actually got

476
00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:32.160
<v Speaker 2>in trouble yesterday for naming Greece Too is a terrible sequel,

477
00:26:32.200 --> 00:26:34.799
<v Speaker 2>which apparently a lot of people really love Greece Too.

478
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:37.319
<v Speaker 1>That is so controversial.

479
00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:41.720
<v Speaker 2>Apparently. But like, let's say, Speed to right. So Speed

480
00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:43.920
<v Speaker 2>was an amazing movie, and they were like, let's just

481
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:45.319
<v Speaker 2>make the bus and cruise ship and do it all

482
00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:48.000
<v Speaker 2>over again, and it just didn't work. And I think

483
00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:51.799
<v Speaker 2>when a sequels doesn't have its own thing it needs

484
00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:54.400
<v Speaker 2>to say what it's just like a follow up without

485
00:26:54.519 --> 00:26:56.119
<v Speaker 2>really a lot of thought behind it, it can be

486
00:26:56.200 --> 00:26:59.119
<v Speaker 2>kind of terrible. So I was I dragged my feet

487
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:03.039
<v Speaker 2>about writing any follow up to Darkness Outside Is until

488
00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:06.039
<v Speaker 2>I realized I had more to say and a story

489
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:08.640
<v Speaker 2>that could stand on its own, and so that's when

490
00:27:08.680 --> 00:27:11.240
<v Speaker 2>I wrote it. And so I think I am interested.

491
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:13.480
<v Speaker 2>I think this world has more stories in it to

492
00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:15.240
<v Speaker 2>tell that I would like to tell. But I'm waiting

493
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.039
<v Speaker 2>to find a storyline that can stand on its own

494
00:27:18.039 --> 00:27:21.359
<v Speaker 2>and not just rely on the other two for three.

495
00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:24.640
<v Speaker 2>So if that, if, and hopefully when that comes to me,

496
00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:26.839
<v Speaker 2>then I'll work on it. But I don't want to

497
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:29.599
<v Speaker 2>make a speed to or agrees to. The model for

498
00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:32.000
<v Speaker 2>me of like a perfect sequel was Aliens after that,

499
00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:36.759
<v Speaker 2>because Alien had this amazing creature, an amazing lead, the

500
00:27:36.759 --> 00:27:39.079
<v Speaker 2>Sigourney Reaver, and it was basically a slasher movie, just

501
00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:42.880
<v Speaker 2>in a spaceship ye And then Aliens kept the Aliens

502
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.599
<v Speaker 2>kept the main character, but the tone of the movie changed.

503
00:27:45.640 --> 00:27:47.599
<v Speaker 2>It became more like a war movie instead of a

504
00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:50.400
<v Speaker 2>slasher movie. It was like Platoon or something but with

505
00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:55.279
<v Speaker 2>the Aliens, and I thought that was so clever because

506
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:57.880
<v Speaker 2>it was a follow up. It felt like a sequel,

507
00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:01.000
<v Speaker 2>but it didn't follow the beats the original alien because

508
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:03.000
<v Speaker 2>it was the whole tone was different. And I think

509
00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:06.359
<v Speaker 2>that's that for me, is like a gold star about

510
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:08.039
<v Speaker 2>what a sequel could do. And it's something I kept

511
00:28:08.039 --> 00:28:09.759
<v Speaker 2>in mind with the brains between us.

512
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:13.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like the first movie was a horror film, the

513
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:17.519
<v Speaker 1>second movie was science fiction, and then it expands right

514
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:22.440
<v Speaker 1>there and from there, and I think that's tone is

515
00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:28.079
<v Speaker 1>very important. I'm a huge fan of the trilogy, especially

516
00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:35.160
<v Speaker 1>the second installment in a trilogy, because typically in the

517
00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:40.640
<v Speaker 1>second installment of a trilogy a there's not a happy ending,

518
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:47.279
<v Speaker 1>which is always interesting to me. And also you drop

519
00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:50.440
<v Speaker 1>right into the action, you know, because we've got all

520
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:54.240
<v Speaker 1>the world building and all the character exposition and everything

521
00:28:54.240 --> 00:28:56.240
<v Speaker 1>from the first film, so now we just jump you

522
00:28:56.319 --> 00:28:58.599
<v Speaker 1>right in the middle of the action and we just

523
00:28:58.839 --> 00:29:03.279
<v Speaker 1>story story, story, story story. That's usually like, uh, Empire

524
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:07.279
<v Speaker 1>strikes back, Matrix reloaded, Like that's that's.

525
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:10.680
<v Speaker 2>Usually your Matrix reloaded fan. That's also a controversial one.

526
00:29:10.799 --> 00:29:12.960
<v Speaker 2>That's not a purist that want to just rolled. Its

527
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:16.920
<v Speaker 2>just the first movie. Oh, interesting, like two Towers? Is

528
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:17.279
<v Speaker 2>that one?

529
00:29:17.680 --> 00:29:21.599
<v Speaker 1>Two Towers exactly? Yeah, fire yep.

530
00:29:22.279 --> 00:29:25.240
<v Speaker 2>Follow up. Yeah. I do like the feeling of not

531
00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:27.200
<v Speaker 2>having to do the work of getting to know the characters,

532
00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:29.319
<v Speaker 2>because that is there is a lot of work we

533
00:29:29.359 --> 00:29:32.240
<v Speaker 2>writers ask of readers is to spend the time putting

534
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:34.160
<v Speaker 2>the pieces together to figure out who someone is in

535
00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:37.480
<v Speaker 2>the book. And sequels are great because you already know

536
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:39.960
<v Speaker 2>they're all friends by now, so you know exactly who

537
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:40.480
<v Speaker 2>everyone is.

538
00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:44.200
<v Speaker 1>But see the other side of that, though, is then

539
00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:47.720
<v Speaker 1>that puts so much pressure on the third installment because

540
00:29:47.759 --> 00:29:50.200
<v Speaker 1>now you've got to wrap this whole thing up in

541
00:29:50.240 --> 00:29:54.359
<v Speaker 1>a satisfying way, and that doesn't happen as often as

542
00:29:54.359 --> 00:30:00.279
<v Speaker 1>i'd like. Case in points the third Matrix film, well, yeah, I.

543
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:03.119
<v Speaker 2>Mean the very few people are fighting for that one unfortunate.

544
00:30:03.720 --> 00:30:05.200
<v Speaker 2>But then like Return of the King, that was an

545
00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:06.880
<v Speaker 2>amazing right, and that was the one that won the

546
00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:10.200
<v Speaker 2>Academy Award for the Lord of the Rings. Yeah. I

547
00:30:10.279 --> 00:30:12.720
<v Speaker 2>think for me, the tricky one is the second one,

548
00:30:13.200 --> 00:30:17.240
<v Speaker 2>as on the writer side of things, because often those

549
00:30:17.279 --> 00:30:19.839
<v Speaker 2>are just treading water. Like the first book had the

550
00:30:19.880 --> 00:30:21.880
<v Speaker 2>amazing beginning and set up the premise the last one

551
00:30:21.920 --> 00:30:23.640
<v Speaker 2>is going to finish everything, and the second one is

552
00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:25.799
<v Speaker 2>like more stuff happens, you know, it's just like the

553
00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:28.920
<v Speaker 2>middle stuff. And so I think it's it's hard to

554
00:30:28.920 --> 00:30:34.160
<v Speaker 2>make those interesting on their own, right.

555
00:30:32.359 --> 00:30:36.480
<v Speaker 1>But at least with your approach with these books, you

556
00:30:36.519 --> 00:30:38.640
<v Speaker 1>don't have that pressure on yourself because you're not thinking

557
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:41.279
<v Speaker 1>of it in terms of a trilogy. You're thinking of

558
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:48.480
<v Speaker 1>like a satisfying story in this installment, and it is

559
00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:51.799
<v Speaker 1>what it is for this moment. So that's that's good

560
00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:53.000
<v Speaker 1>for you at least.

561
00:30:54.160 --> 00:30:56.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm not sure how how far this

562
00:30:56.680 --> 00:30:59.960
<v Speaker 2>will go. It'll stop once I feel like we've told

563
00:31:00.039 --> 00:31:02.279
<v Speaker 2>of all the stories that needed to be told in

564
00:31:02.279 --> 00:31:05.839
<v Speaker 2>this universe, but I'm not sure when that'll we so

565
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:07.480
<v Speaker 2>I guess we'll just find it out as we go.

566
00:31:08.359 --> 00:31:12.200
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you know, part of me doesn't know what

567
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:14.319
<v Speaker 1>to root for, but like, you know, you might get

568
00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:17.559
<v Speaker 1>to the point where when the film is a huge

569
00:31:17.599 --> 00:31:20.400
<v Speaker 1>success and then they start backing the big money truck

570
00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:33.240
<v Speaker 1>up to your house and now you're like, okay.

571
00:31:28.279 --> 00:31:30.200
<v Speaker 2>Right, right, Well part of it is, you know, you

572
00:31:30.200 --> 00:31:32.519
<v Speaker 2>see what happened with something like Game of Thrones, where

573
00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:36.119
<v Speaker 2>the TV series got out ahead of the books, and

574
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:37.799
<v Speaker 2>so it was, you know, it seemed like there was

575
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:39.839
<v Speaker 2>infinite amounts of material for them to adapt, and then

576
00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:41.839
<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden they were the schedule was getting

577
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:46.400
<v Speaker 2>ahead of Georgia R. R. Martin's, so part of it, you know,

578
00:31:46.440 --> 00:31:50.640
<v Speaker 2>writing the sequels does mean that I would be able

579
00:31:50.680 --> 00:31:52.640
<v Speaker 2>to set the terms of where this storyline would go.

580
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:56.160
<v Speaker 2>Whereas if I kind of if the movie did take

581
00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:59.519
<v Speaker 2>off like k Not Come, would they would if I,

582
00:31:59.519 --> 00:32:01.160
<v Speaker 2>if I weren't in the follow ups, they would be

583
00:32:01.200 --> 00:32:03.559
<v Speaker 2>harding a screenwriter to write it. So if I want

584
00:32:03.559 --> 00:32:05.400
<v Speaker 2>to tell the story, I better get in there, get.

585
00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:14.039
<v Speaker 1>Working exactly, because I've seen too many examples of properties

586
00:32:14.079 --> 00:32:19.759
<v Speaker 1>where they want the money, they want the capital TV,

587
00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:24.400
<v Speaker 1>they want the cash cow of the next part of

588
00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:28.079
<v Speaker 1>the of the story, and the original screenwriter or the

589
00:32:28.119 --> 00:32:34.200
<v Speaker 1>original writer isn't involved usually because you know, they don't

590
00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:38.079
<v Speaker 1>freaking want to. You know, this is not what I

591
00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:40.200
<v Speaker 1>want to do with my work, and.

592
00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:44.920
<v Speaker 2>It's not good. Yeah, one TV series you see off

593
00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:47.200
<v Speaker 2>from the showrunner who's kind of the head writer, is

594
00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:49.119
<v Speaker 2>there for a season or two and then moves on

595
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:51.640
<v Speaker 2>to other projects, and the series takes a nose dive.

596
00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:53.599
<v Speaker 2>Once there, their voice is out of the room.

597
00:32:53.920 --> 00:33:02.240
<v Speaker 1>Yep. Like right now, there's all this conversation, and I

598
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:05.359
<v Speaker 1>mean mostly on the internet in discussion groups, but like,

599
00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:10.920
<v Speaker 1>do you remember Lovecraft Country that was on HBO. Lovecraft

600
00:33:10.960 --> 00:33:17.279
<v Speaker 1>Country was a novel which essentially was like a bunch

601
00:33:17.359 --> 00:33:24.640
<v Speaker 1>of short stories stitched together with one overarching plotline, and

602
00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:32.880
<v Speaker 1>they made this brilliant series on HBO and like the

603
00:33:33.000 --> 00:33:36.880
<v Speaker 1>show had its own like had an accompanying syllabus because

604
00:33:36.920 --> 00:33:41.880
<v Speaker 1>there was so much, so many references with books and poetry,

605
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:49.839
<v Speaker 1>and it was just stunningly perfect. And when the series ended,

606
00:33:50.119 --> 00:33:52.759
<v Speaker 1>like it there was just the one, the one season,

607
00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:55.000
<v Speaker 1>and people are like, we want season two, we want

608
00:33:55.079 --> 00:33:57.680
<v Speaker 1>season two. But my whole thing is there was only

609
00:33:57.720 --> 00:34:03.559
<v Speaker 1>one book. They did the series on the book. So

610
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:05.799
<v Speaker 1>if they do a season two, now they have to

611
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:11.199
<v Speaker 1>start making up new shit without the author. I don't

612
00:34:11.199 --> 00:34:11.760
<v Speaker 1>want to see that.

613
00:34:12.920 --> 00:34:15.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, who knows, maybe they'll come up with something that's

614
00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:18.800
<v Speaker 2>out Lovecraft's love Craft, but it's hard to imagine.

615
00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:26.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, it's like you don't know what to root

616
00:34:26.280 --> 00:34:28.519
<v Speaker 1>for it. It's like, I'm not done loving this show,

617
00:34:28.599 --> 00:34:30.159
<v Speaker 1>but no, I don't want you to mess it up.

618
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:34.599
<v Speaker 2>At the same time, though, I think, you know, I'm

619
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:37.840
<v Speaker 2>really interested in not being too heavy in the room

620
00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:41.440
<v Speaker 2>if when they adapt, if they adopt, get to the

621
00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:43.400
<v Speaker 2>point where they we're getting ready to make the movie,

622
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:46.159
<v Speaker 2>because I think I've said my piece for four hundred pages.

623
00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:48.239
<v Speaker 2>I've I've said everything I want to say about the

624
00:34:48.280 --> 00:34:50.679
<v Speaker 2>characters in the storyline, and I'm kind of interested in

625
00:34:50.719 --> 00:34:53.239
<v Speaker 2>someone else's take and what they what they want to modify,

626
00:34:53.320 --> 00:34:55.119
<v Speaker 2>and what they would do. And I don't want to

627
00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:56.840
<v Speaker 2>get in a way of that. I'm afraid that, you know,

628
00:34:56.840 --> 00:34:59.000
<v Speaker 2>it's the writer I would it's like, no, you shouldn't

629
00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:02.119
<v Speaker 2>be wearing a yellow shirt, be a green shirt, like right, right, right,

630
00:35:02.280 --> 00:35:06.280
<v Speaker 2>just become insufferable to them. So I would much rather

631
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.039
<v Speaker 2>have a lighter hand help where I can, and then

632
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:11.639
<v Speaker 2>someday sit in a movie theater and the lights go

633
00:35:11.719 --> 00:35:13.880
<v Speaker 2>down and I get to just see what they did

634
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:16.159
<v Speaker 2>with something that was once just a word doc on

635
00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:16.599
<v Speaker 2>my computer.

636
00:35:17.719 --> 00:35:23.960
<v Speaker 1>I love it. Yeah, And that's interesting when, like you know,

637
00:35:26.199 --> 00:35:33.320
<v Speaker 1>when an author lets go of the rains and it

638
00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:38.920
<v Speaker 1>ends up being different than their vision and they're experiencing

639
00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:41.000
<v Speaker 1>it for the first time with the rest of us like,

640
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:43.559
<v Speaker 1>what must that feel like? Like, do you recognize your

641
00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:44.320
<v Speaker 1>baby at all?

642
00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:48.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Right, hopefully you do. But then if they make

643
00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:50.079
<v Speaker 2>a muck of it and it's a trible movie, at

644
00:35:50.119 --> 00:35:52.360
<v Speaker 2>least I can just say, like, I didn't do it right,

645
00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:55.199
<v Speaker 2>I did it, you know. But there's a ways in

646
00:35:55.239 --> 00:35:58.000
<v Speaker 2>which you know movies are different, you know, because I

647
00:35:58.000 --> 00:36:00.159
<v Speaker 2>can get a lot of tension and story out in

648
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:02.960
<v Speaker 2>the internal narration in a novel. In a movie can't

649
00:36:03.000 --> 00:36:05.519
<v Speaker 2>really do that, So they have to sort of prove

650
00:36:06.039 --> 00:36:08.760
<v Speaker 2>through the visual medium what characters are about and what

651
00:36:08.800 --> 00:36:12.000
<v Speaker 2>they're thinking. And that's a very different art form than

652
00:36:12.159 --> 00:36:15.039
<v Speaker 2>what it's a novelist I have access to. So I

653
00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:17.079
<v Speaker 2>think I'll leave it to the experts to figure out

654
00:36:17.079 --> 00:36:20.320
<v Speaker 2>how to translate what at times can be a more

655
00:36:20.360 --> 00:36:23.360
<v Speaker 2>internal story in the novel into something that is works

656
00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:25.199
<v Speaker 2>well for cinema.

657
00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:29.639
<v Speaker 1>Do you like I mean, right now, I know the

658
00:36:29.679 --> 00:36:33.119
<v Speaker 1>answer because you're in the middle of getting your work

659
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:37.880
<v Speaker 1>into a film. But do you like film adaptations better

660
00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:45.119
<v Speaker 1>than series adaptations? What do you think about those two?

661
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:49.599
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I think there's so many films that

662
00:36:49.639 --> 00:36:52.960
<v Speaker 2>I've loved in TV series that I've loved. It's hard

663
00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:57.199
<v Speaker 2>to hard to know. I think it's just keeps changing

664
00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:00.800
<v Speaker 2>so much. Which are getting the best productions and the

665
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:03.280
<v Speaker 2>best directors, Like it's used to be that like film

666
00:37:03.320 --> 00:37:05.840
<v Speaker 2>is considered a cut above, but that's those days are

667
00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:09.039
<v Speaker 2>long gone and you have some of the best digital

668
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:13.559
<v Speaker 2>entertainment is on TV now, So I think it's I

669
00:37:13.559 --> 00:37:17.559
<v Speaker 2>can see a version of like where a whole season

670
00:37:17.559 --> 00:37:19.400
<v Speaker 2>would be the darkness outside is in the whole season

671
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:23.480
<v Speaker 2>would be the brightness between us. But I think with

672
00:37:23.559 --> 00:37:25.599
<v Speaker 2>the movie you have like the total clarity, like we

673
00:37:25.679 --> 00:37:27.360
<v Speaker 2>know exactly where it's going to end, because the screenplay

674
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:29.800
<v Speaker 2>has already gotten there, and it's just a really neat

675
00:37:29.960 --> 00:37:32.360
<v Speaker 2>arc where it's a TV series ends up a little

676
00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:35.679
<v Speaker 2>more open ended and I think has more room to play,

677
00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:38.000
<v Speaker 2>but it can be a little less tight than a

678
00:37:38.039 --> 00:37:40.920
<v Speaker 2>movie can be. So I'm certainly open to both. But

679
00:37:41.079 --> 00:37:43.440
<v Speaker 2>right now we're thinking of it as a movie, right.

680
00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:46.960
<v Speaker 1>Like there is that like it can become a big,

681
00:37:47.000 --> 00:37:49.639
<v Speaker 1>sprawling thing if you let it go over the course

682
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:52.039
<v Speaker 1>of the season. But at the same time, it can

683
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:54.920
<v Speaker 1>be like you said, like you can delve more into

684
00:37:55.519 --> 00:38:02.480
<v Speaker 1>the internal struggles and the personal journeys of the individual characters.

685
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:09.159
<v Speaker 1>Like the example that's in my head the total random

686
00:38:09.239 --> 00:38:14.960
<v Speaker 1>comparison is Dear White People. Like there was the movie

687
00:38:15.000 --> 00:38:19.159
<v Speaker 1>and it told the story beginning, middle end, but then

688
00:38:19.159 --> 00:38:23.239
<v Speaker 1>they redid it for the series, and that was interesting

689
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:27.239
<v Speaker 1>in that each episode was told from the point of

690
00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:29.840
<v Speaker 1>view of a different character, so they still, over the

691
00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:33.239
<v Speaker 1>course of the series of the first season anyway, told

692
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:35.719
<v Speaker 1>the exact same story that the movie did, but you

693
00:38:35.800 --> 00:38:37.639
<v Speaker 1>got so much more out of it because you got

694
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:40.679
<v Speaker 1>to see it from this complete three sixty point of

695
00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:43.679
<v Speaker 1>view because you're seeing it from all of the different characters.

696
00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:47.719
<v Speaker 1>And that's one of the things I love about expanding

697
00:38:48.559 --> 00:38:52.559
<v Speaker 1>properties into series that you can go as deep as

698
00:38:52.599 --> 00:38:55.440
<v Speaker 1>you want, but then it really depends upon how seriously

699
00:38:55.480 --> 00:39:00.880
<v Speaker 1>you take the work, because it can easily go go astray,

700
00:39:02.599 --> 00:39:10.039
<v Speaker 1>like American Gods, for instance, Oh my god, they the

701
00:39:10.119 --> 00:39:13.159
<v Speaker 1>minutia that they paid attention to. And because I was

702
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:16.239
<v Speaker 1>so excited to see American Gods turn into a series

703
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:19.719
<v Speaker 1>because I love that book. I have never been so

704
00:39:19.880 --> 00:39:23.000
<v Speaker 1>bored by a story that I loved. You know, it's

705
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:26.039
<v Speaker 1>like we're five episodes in and we're only like twenty

706
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:29.239
<v Speaker 1>pages into this book. I don't understand, you know. So, yeah,

707
00:39:29.280 --> 00:39:34.440
<v Speaker 1>there is a two sides to that coin. So who

708
00:39:34.440 --> 00:39:41.199
<v Speaker 1>would you say are your biggest literary influences.

709
00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:44.039
<v Speaker 2>Well, for these books, I think Arthur C. Clark is

710
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:49.159
<v Speaker 2>a big one. I do love like storytelling wise, I

711
00:39:49.159 --> 00:39:52.519
<v Speaker 2>think Susanne Collins did an absolutely amazing job in the

712
00:39:52.599 --> 00:39:56.039
<v Speaker 2>Hunger Games trilogy, and I think as a model of

713
00:39:56.360 --> 00:40:00.400
<v Speaker 2>getting a tense thriller kind of story with a high

714
00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:04.360
<v Speaker 2>concept world like She's she really mastered the way to

715
00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:07.719
<v Speaker 2>do it. My favorite book of all time is a

716
00:40:07.719 --> 00:40:11.880
<v Speaker 2>book called Howard's End by Iam Forster, which you know,

717
00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:14.960
<v Speaker 2>I was set in nineteen oh eight London, but he

718
00:40:15.159 --> 00:40:18.440
<v Speaker 2>was you know, Forster was a gay man. It wasn't

719
00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:21.039
<v Speaker 2>revealed until he died in nineteen seventy and he had

720
00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:24.559
<v Speaker 2>this gay novel, Morris, that was only published then. But

721
00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:29.280
<v Speaker 2>Howard's End, yeah, it was this like straight characters but

722
00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:31.760
<v Speaker 2>written by gay man with a gay sensibility. And as

723
00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:34.760
<v Speaker 2>a gay teenager, I saw the movie and then read

724
00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:37.400
<v Speaker 2>the book and felt like kind of seen by it

725
00:40:37.440 --> 00:40:39.840
<v Speaker 2>and that I understood him, and I felt a kindred

726
00:40:39.840 --> 00:40:42.920
<v Speaker 2>spirit in Iam Forster, and so that book has always

727
00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:45.159
<v Speaker 2>held a really close place in my heart and I

728
00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:49.599
<v Speaker 2>reread it pretty regularly. It's like my comfort read. It's

729
00:40:49.639 --> 00:40:50.400
<v Speaker 2>a really great book.

730
00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:56.599
<v Speaker 1>You seem to like period pieces, like yeah, I think so.

731
00:40:57.119 --> 00:40:59.760
<v Speaker 2>I like learning about somewhere else. In general, I like

732
00:40:59.800 --> 00:41:03.480
<v Speaker 2>to feel like I've gone far away from where I am.

733
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:08.159
<v Speaker 1>It's like you're influenced by stories set in a fixed

734
00:41:08.199 --> 00:41:10.639
<v Speaker 1>point in the past, and then you write about things

735
00:41:10.679 --> 00:41:13.719
<v Speaker 1>that take place far into the future. It's interesting.

736
00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Either, you know, sort of like having a good exploration

737
00:41:18.000 --> 00:41:20.320
<v Speaker 2>where I'm running from humping in the President who knows?

738
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:25.840
<v Speaker 2>I love hmm explore episode two.

739
00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:30.400
<v Speaker 1>Here's a question. Do you have a soundtrack when you

740
00:41:30.440 --> 00:41:32.920
<v Speaker 1>when you write or do you write in complete silence?

741
00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:35.599
<v Speaker 2>No? I usually have music going. Yeah, I tend to

742
00:41:35.639 --> 00:41:39.320
<v Speaker 2>write to sort of vapid pop. That's like a good

743
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:41.239
<v Speaker 2>match for me because it's got energy but the lyrics

744
00:41:41.239 --> 00:41:44.079
<v Speaker 2>that don't require too much attention. And so I definitely

745
00:41:44.079 --> 00:41:48.360
<v Speaker 2>like wrote a whole album to you know, Kelly Clarkson

746
00:41:48.599 --> 00:41:50.400
<v Speaker 2>another one too. I don't know.

747
00:41:51.320 --> 00:41:52.280
<v Speaker 1>Interesting, I never.

748
00:41:52.320 --> 00:41:55.360
<v Speaker 2>Never wrote to Katie Perry, but I do like like

749
00:41:55.400 --> 00:41:57.800
<v Speaker 2>an album that I know and love that I can

750
00:41:57.880 --> 00:42:00.400
<v Speaker 2>put in the background and feel the energies. But it's

751
00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:02.840
<v Speaker 2>not like new music that I'm actively processing, Like that's

752
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:04.199
<v Speaker 2>the perfect writing music for me.

753
00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:06.800
<v Speaker 1>Okay, all right, I love that.

754
00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:07.840
<v Speaker 2>I love it. I love it.

755
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:13.320
<v Speaker 1>I love it. So what do you what is your

756
00:42:13.360 --> 00:42:18.199
<v Speaker 1>your hope for your your career? Like, say, where do

757
00:42:18.239 --> 00:42:23.280
<v Speaker 1>you see yourself? Pie in the Sky in in five years?

758
00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:26.320
<v Speaker 1>The movie's been out, it's a huge success.

759
00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:32.119
<v Speaker 2>I like this. I like this, future sounds great.

760
00:42:33.239 --> 00:42:35.440
<v Speaker 1>Like what do you what's on your your dream board?

761
00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:39.800
<v Speaker 2>Oh well, I'm toying around with the idea of a

762
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:44.440
<v Speaker 2>novel for an adult novel, not erotico, just a novel

763
00:42:44.480 --> 00:42:49.079
<v Speaker 2>that's audience as adults. But I was asked on a panel,

764
00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:51.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, what's the time period that you'd be interested

765
00:42:51.079 --> 00:42:53.800
<v Speaker 2>in writing about that you've never written about? And I

766
00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:56.480
<v Speaker 2>realized I'd always thought about, like what would what would

767
00:42:56.480 --> 00:42:58.079
<v Speaker 2>I have done if I were born in the Middle

768
00:42:58.159 --> 00:43:00.199
<v Speaker 2>Ages as a gay man, Like what would I I'm

769
00:43:00.239 --> 00:43:03.840
<v Speaker 2>with myself when there is no stone wall, you know,

770
00:43:04.000 --> 00:43:07.519
<v Speaker 2>there's no like gay awakening. And I realized I would

771
00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:10.519
<v Speaker 2>probably have become a monk. I don't believe in God,

772
00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:14.039
<v Speaker 2>but the idea of living on like in some monastery

773
00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:16.960
<v Speaker 2>with a bunch of other guys and brewing beer and

774
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:21.800
<v Speaker 2>illuminating manuscripts and doing astronomy and stuff, singing chants, and

775
00:43:22.280 --> 00:43:25.559
<v Speaker 2>it sounds great. So I'm imagining a novel about a

776
00:43:25.559 --> 00:43:28.360
<v Speaker 2>monastery in the twelfth century where it turns out not

777
00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:30.360
<v Speaker 2>one or two, but all the monks are gay. It's

778
00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:33.679
<v Speaker 2>like a gay monastery. So I'm not sure where to

779
00:43:33.679 --> 00:43:36.519
<v Speaker 2>go with it story wise, but I think that's probably

780
00:43:36.559 --> 00:43:38.119
<v Speaker 2>the next project for me down the pike.

781
00:43:39.400 --> 00:43:41.559
<v Speaker 1>Be honest, Fabulous Monastery ever.

782
00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:45.000
<v Speaker 2>That's right, that's a good title. I mean, you'd want

783
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:47.639
<v Speaker 2>to crack an open, right, unless the Ebulous Monastery ever?

784
00:43:48.079 --> 00:43:53.880
<v Speaker 1>I mean, hey, well, Elliott Schrefer, thank you so much

785
00:43:54.440 --> 00:43:58.679
<v Speaker 1>for sitting and chatting with me. I'm so glad that

786
00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:03.119
<v Speaker 1>I got to talk to you about your wonderful work,

787
00:44:03.199 --> 00:44:07.360
<v Speaker 1>and I look forward to being able to sit in

788
00:44:07.400 --> 00:44:11.960
<v Speaker 1>the theater and watch the film based on your work,

789
00:44:12.599 --> 00:44:16.960
<v Speaker 1>because you've got a unique point of view that I

790
00:44:17.000 --> 00:44:19.719
<v Speaker 1>think people need to need to check out, need to

791
00:44:19.719 --> 00:44:20.519
<v Speaker 1>be exposed to.

792
00:44:21.639 --> 00:44:25.519
<v Speaker 2>Well thanks, yeah, yeah, I would love that experience too,

793
00:44:25.599 --> 00:44:28.239
<v Speaker 2>So maybe we'll be communing across from two different cinemas

794
00:44:28.280 --> 00:44:31.000
<v Speaker 2>thinking about that. But this has really been a great conversation.

795
00:44:31.119 --> 00:44:33.480
<v Speaker 2>Charles and I really appreciate your having me on and

796
00:44:34.280 --> 00:44:35.519
<v Speaker 2>I've really really enjoyed it.

797
00:44:35.800 --> 00:44:39.960
<v Speaker 1>Thank you. What's your favorite way to get people to

798
00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:41.320
<v Speaker 1>buy the book?

799
00:44:42.719 --> 00:44:46.320
<v Speaker 2>I love you know. It should be in most independent bookstores,

800
00:44:46.360 --> 00:44:49.360
<v Speaker 2>your local small bookshop, so please check it out there

801
00:44:50.199 --> 00:44:53.599
<v Speaker 2>if you do want to buy it. I've signed the

802
00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:57.639
<v Speaker 2>copies in three different bookstores, Books of Wonder, Red Balloon Bookshop,

803
00:44:57.719 --> 00:45:01.320
<v Speaker 2>and Blue Willow Bookshop, so you can order from any

804
00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:05.280
<v Speaker 2>of those and they'll send you a signed copy, or

805
00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:07.119
<v Speaker 2>you can get it from your general chain store too.

806
00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:08.880
<v Speaker 2>That's all fine, fabulous.

807
00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:12.840
<v Speaker 1>So the book is The Brightness Between Us by Elliott Schreefer,

808
00:45:13.280 --> 00:45:16.039
<v Speaker 1>and I implore everyone that is within the sound of

809
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:20.400
<v Speaker 1>our voice to get yourself a copy and immerse yourself

810
00:45:20.679 --> 00:45:25.920
<v Speaker 1>in this wonderful world that he has created. Elliots, thank

811
00:45:25.920 --> 00:45:29.639
<v Speaker 1>you so much, and I hope that this is not

812
00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:31.800
<v Speaker 1>the last time we talked to each other.

813
00:45:32.400 --> 00:45:33.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that sounds great. Let's do it again.

814
00:45:34.239 --> 00:45:36.280
<v Speaker 1>Yes, take care now.

815
00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:37.119
<v Speaker 2>Thanks.

816
00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:42.079
<v Speaker 1>Full Circle is a Never Skured Productions podcast hosted by

817
00:45:42.159 --> 00:45:45.679
<v Speaker 1>Charles Tyson Junior and Martha Madrigal, produced and edited by

818
00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:49.920
<v Speaker 1>Never Scured Executive Produced by Charles Tyson Junior and Martha madrigal.

819
00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:54.960
<v Speaker 1>Our theme in music is by the jingle aries. All names, pictures, music, audio,

820
00:45:55.039 --> 00:45:58.360
<v Speaker 1>and video clips are registered trademarks and or copyrights of

821
00:45:58.400 --> 00:45:59.960
<v Speaker 1>their respective copyright holder.

822
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:03.159
<v Speaker 2>T blah black, bla ba blah, blah blah fa fla

823
00:46:03.280 --> 00:46:05.599
<v Speaker 2>fla fla fla flat black, blam black small flam black

824
00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:05.840
<v Speaker 2>black