Speaker 1: Hello, everyone, Welcome to Seafood Matters and thank you for
joining us again today. I'm delighted to be chatting with
Rodrigo Armada, sustainability director at Baja Aqua Farms Group. Hi Rodrigo,
thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2: Pleasure to meet you, pleasure to be on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. Yeah, I'm looking forward. For those
not familiar, can you briefly explain what Bacha Aqua Farms
produces and where it sits in the global seafood market.
Speaker 2: Yes, of course.
Speaker 3: So, Bajaco Farms is a bluefin tuna ranching company. We're
an operation located on Encinnata Baha, California, right off the
Pacific coast. We're around two hours south of San Diego
and are Our farm is located right in front of
Coronado Islands, which are near the border with the United States. Basically,
what bluefin tuna ranching means is we capture wild blue
in tuna and we toe them to our farm where
we feed them for six to twelve months and afterwards
harvest to export internationally and some to the national market.
And currently the company is among the biggest producers in
the world of blue in tuna. Providing high quality sushimi
grad within tuna or different markets.
Speaker 1: My goodness, I didn't expect that tuna. You were gonna
say most farms are salmon.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So it's I think we're a little bit
in between the fishing and the aquaculture world because although
it is not fishing because we feed the fish, it's
not aquaculture per se, because it's also not full cycle farming, right,
So yeah, we're kind of in this niche around the world.
Speaker 2: There's few farms.
Speaker 3: You'll see farms in Australia, Japan and the Mediterranean and
right off the coast here in Mexico and Bakalifornia.
Speaker 1: That must be a good product because obviously the way
you describe it there, that's from wild right from the start.
Speaker 3: Yes, and we're taking a native species and veenie with
also native species. So that's the value added within the
company is all the sardine and anchovies that we feed
the tuna are locally sourced from here off the Pacific coast,
so you're basically feeding the fish a similar diet to
what they would be eating out there in the wild.
That plus also having the cold waters, we have the
perfect environment for a high quality product.
Speaker 1: That sounds a terrific setup. Before we go deep work,
can you give us a quick sense of your own
background and what brought you into this role.
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, So I'm a sustainable development engineer. Before
working here a Bajaco Farms, I worked as a consultant
for a brief time, and also I worked in the
can in the canning industry, so but for beverages, So
I'd say I have a little more diverse background. What
brought me to Bajaco Farms is I'm I'm a local.
I'm from in Senata, California. So there's Incinnata if you
know it, and if you don't, you should definitely come
to know this beautiful city. It's we're basically a wine
and food city. Therefore, there's not too many sustainability opportunities.
Speaker 2: So when I had the chance to apply here about how.
Speaker 3: Farms and work within this the yac culture industry, work
with the ocean, and also be able to work within
the sustainability field, everything made sense for me. So it
was kind of the right time, right place to be,
and that's how I came to Bajack of Farms and
since then I've been here for four and a half
years now. I started here.
Speaker 2: At the end of twenty twenty one and since I've stayed.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, brilliant. What does sustainability actually mean to back
Aqua Farms on a day to day basis?
Speaker 3: So, I mean, more so than what it means to
the company, it's very important to I think from a
personal sense, sustainability has become a term that everybody tries
to interpret and interpret in the wrong way, and I
think there we can all align to a more homogeneous definition.
Speaker 2: That way, we all go within the same standard.
Speaker 3: Right, So for us here at the company and personally,
sustainability or even more so sustainable development, it has much
to do with Like we've it comes similar to the
Bruinlant sustainability definition and which make proper use of natural
resources to attend I would say, not market demands, but
rather social and well being necessities, So the proper use
of natural resources to attend.
Speaker 2: Human requirements and needs.
Speaker 3: Meanwhile also allowing the same ecosies them from where you're
extracting these natural resources to continue to thrive throughout time,
not only to be able to attend the needs of
future generations, but also keep serving those same purposes that
those resources.
Speaker 2: Were meant to serve.
Speaker 3: Right, So, thinking about ecosystem services not only provided to humanity,
but also to the same habit that an ecosystem, they
belong with it. So it has a lot to do
with just a I think it starts with empathy, having
empathy and being understanding that we are part of and
not owners of those resources.
Speaker 2: Right So, I think that's the way we.
Speaker 1: Look at from listening to you, Rodrigo, if I was
to put a word to it in my head from
listening to you, it would be ethics.
Speaker 3: Good ethics, Thank you, thank you. It's going back to
our roots. I think people are humans in general. We
are we're very empathetic creatures and being just mindful of
where we are and where we stand currently as a
society within this ecological crisis. I think it's very important
to have that in mind when we're taking decisions, and
it gives us a much more holistic point of view
whenever we're taking business decisions. Right, So, I think that's
what we're starting.
Speaker 1: Aquaculture is often promoted as a future of seafood, but
it is also it's critics. What are the biggest environmental
pressures for euro operation faces.
Speaker 2: Great question.
Speaker 3: I think that whenever we're talking about any primary.
Speaker 2: Industry, there's going to be pushbacks.
Speaker 3: And actually, I think those pushbacks from society are the
ones that enable companies to continue to innovate and thrive
within changing geopolitical, social.
Speaker 2: And environmental aspects.
Speaker 3: Right, So for us, i'd say the main ones are, well,
I think there are relatively obvious. You're taking two resources
from the water, right, So the two main things are
what's the state of those fisheries, the state of the
lufing tuna fishery, what's the state of the sardine and
anchobe's fisheries. So since those are our main natural resources
that we extract from the water, we've got to make
sure that able to replenish and the population is able
to stay in a sustainable the biomass, the biomass that
stays in the water.
Speaker 2: Is still a sustainable population.
Speaker 3: So these two, i'd say, are the main points that
we need to look at, and we'll talk a.
Speaker 2: Little bit more about what we're doing in those regards.
Speaker 3: And also not any less important, I think the other
environmental issues that are most critical to our operations are
our carbon footprint. It is we are carbon intensive, I'd
say a carbon intensive operation just from the diesel that
we require to catch the fish, the diesel that's required
to operate the farm, right, and of course having a
company that exports most of its product our scope three
carbon footprint. I think it's also a hard issue to tackle,
but still I think it's important to have in mind.
And finally, the environmental impact that I think, and this
is general throughout the AGA culture industry, the environmental impact
that we have on site, right, So how do we
manage our farm and the impact that we have in
the local ecosystem where we have our operation, I'd say
those who are the key ones?
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when you look at your farms today, what's
the one idiot you know still needs real improvement? I
suppose that an ongoing situation is.
Speaker 3: It requires improvement, I'd say that just and we're working
on it, but continue innovating and improving our FCR. That's
and it's been a critical issue that a lot of
people would point out about the industry. And although I
think it's a complex conversation, I think we are very
mindful of it, and we we put a lot of
effort and innovation behind that.
Speaker 2: That main issue, I'd say improving on FCR And also.
Speaker 3: I'd say that's the one the most critical issue that
we still have, not necessarily because of the impact that
it has in the farm, but the impact that you're
have in from the extraction from this natural stock.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and feed this is always a central issue.
Is there any sort of idea to really reduce the
reliance on wild fish and poot?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: So, of course alternative feed is something that we've explored
in the past. We've just not come with a correct
mixing diet that we would need.
Speaker 2: Furthermore, we're also.
Speaker 3: And I understand this point of view, still skeptical of
which are the new environmental impacts that we are going
to open if we were to start transitioning to alternative feed.
Speaker 2: So what I'm talking about is when we look at.
Speaker 3: Feed and comparing two feeds.
Speaker 4: From a life cycle analysis point of view, we start
broadening the conversation, right So, and I think this is
a good segue to.
Speaker 2: Talk a little bit about how we've been managing.
Speaker 3: The Sarge Infistry to ensure that this is not a
population that is neither.
Speaker 2: Risk of collapsing nor nor going to an unsustainable levels. Right.
Speaker 3: So, actually part of what we're doing is we're within
an MSc improvement project where we've worked with eighty five
percent of the startine vessels throughout the whole BA California Peninsula.
Speaker 2: That's two states California.
Speaker 3: We've allied with our industrial partners to go for the
MC certification.
Speaker 2: We're still working on it.
Speaker 3: As you might imagine, coordinating efforts between thirteen different companies
along two states has taping a few years, and we've
taken a lot of action to improve.
Speaker 2: How we manage the fishery.
Speaker 3: So I put that into context because I think that
is an important starting point.
Speaker 2: If we are able.
Speaker 3: To sustainably manage the fishery, we are able to continue
our operation while also being mindful of that resource and
taking care of it through different harvest control rules that
we've vote voluntarily implemented within this fishery. So from that
point of view, the risk of going to alternative feed is,
of course, well, today we don't give any vaccines to
our fish, we don't use any antibiotics, we don't use
any type of chemicals. So going from a natural feed
to alternative feed, we have a higher risk are affecting
fish welfare and also any waste from the feed that
goes to the bottom of the seafloor has a much
higher impact than the waste of the sardines because currently,
and we know this because we monitor the EBIT for
monthly and do test every six months of this event health,
we know that a lot of that waste is.
Speaker 2: Being consumed by the same environment.
Speaker 5: There.
Speaker 3: We have a ton of sea lions, lobsters, crabs, shellfish
on the seabed floor. So although we want to reduce
waste at the maximum, the fact that they are sardines
the same ecosis and is consuming those rather than if
we had any type of pellets. So we just take
into account all of these factors plus of course economic
factors before taking.
Speaker 2: A decision on transitioning to alternative feat.
Speaker 3: So we although we have explored some with cold universities,
we have still not find that correct mix and consider
all these factors that I previously mentioned that make us
feel comfortable with that decision and transition.
Speaker 1: I would take it that you're confident and the traceability
and sustainability of your.
Speaker 2: Feed on one hundred percent.
Speaker 3: Because we are a vertically integrated company and it's a
partner company, a sister company that is extracting that that's sardine.
So we are very hands on with Howard's managed. Some
of the actions that we've taken is we've now have
an absorb board program for with one hundred percent coverage
of all the vessels that are part of the certification Alliance.
Not only that, but we've also implemented fishing vans, voluntary
fishing vans. So last year we had a fishing van
for three months on specific bay where we had juvenile
fish that that's like in the beginning of the year,
from January to March, that's when sardine spawned actually right
here in the Dosentles baby right here in the Sanata,
and we basically close that as an industry.
Speaker 2: Nobody could fish.
Speaker 3: There and that allowed to drastically reduce the incidents over
juvenile fish. And I'm more than fifty percent versus the
previous year. So I see that we're taking real action
to reduce the environmental impact that we have not only
by the fishing operation, but allowing the stocks to continue
to replenish and be there for the long run.
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's something I'm not getting right
here roud we go. Bet if there's fashion in bonds
or quotas or that when you're you're not catching fish
your ranch in them, would you be commend to any
of that bond.
Speaker 3: So the fishing band that we had last year, like
I mentioned, it was specifically for a region. Therefore, we
could still fish starting another regions within the peninsula, just
not specifically here. Yeah, So it was more of a
band to allow the juvenile fish to continue to replenish.
It had a that was the main objective to check
juveniles because that was what was pointed out by our
technical science team that that was the critical issue that
we need to attend to as an industry.
Speaker 2: So that's why the decision was made.
Speaker 1: There's one thing that comes to mind. On the feed
you're talking about Rodrigo. You might say, well, yes, not
you might say I would definitely say I'm probably thinking
about selfish, but I would say, before you give all
the object and sardines to the tuna, I would like
to think you keep some for yourself.
Speaker 5: Unfortunately, the Mexican market is not very there's not a
high appetite for sardina and njovies in the Mexican market has.
Speaker 2: Nothing to do with Europe. It is a very different world.
Speaker 3: Here in Mexico there is a very very low acceptance
of that product. So I know that sometimes the argument is, well,
why don't we take those sardines and those anchovies to
fed people.
Speaker 2: Around the world when we don't have not even the
local markets.
Speaker 3: We need to international markets to be able to put
that product there. And also there's because.
Speaker 2: There's no local demand. And when I say local, I
mean at a national level.
Speaker 3: In Mexico, we don't have the infrastructure nor the know
how for high quality canning. Yes, and so everything that
goes behind that industry, we don't have it developed in
this country.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, on fish wealth that an ethics is getting more attention.
How do you define a measure and a commercial operation?
Speaker 3: So from a commercial point of view, it's actually very
straightforward because the and when I say this, because the
better of the tuna are the higher quality of the part.
So if we are able to maintain a low stress
levels on tuna, we're able to maintain low stocking density
on our pens. That leads to a drastically lower mortality rate.
And also whenever we take the tuna out, as long
as the harvest is as humane as possible and less
stressed its full possible for the tuna, that product is
also going to come out in the highest possible quality.
So I'd say that maybe it's two ways. One we
have the ethic side of it, so the proper handling
of the fish, just for the simple reason that it
is a living being.
Speaker 2: And at the end of the day, we need.
Speaker 3: To, like I was mentioning, being mindful and empathetic with
our resources, and we can't just think of it as
something that we own. Therefore being very mindful of that
and respectful of the fish.
Speaker 2: And then from purely a commercial point of view, because
as you might imagine, we don't as.
Speaker 3: Long as much as we'd like to think that everybody
thinks the same in all the companies, we all have
a different drivers.
Speaker 2: And from the commercial team, the driver's very straightforward.
Speaker 3: From the market point of view as well, is the
better you take care of that fish.
Speaker 2: The higher equality, and therefore everything makes sense.
Speaker 3: And that's how we've been able to maintain I consider
a high fish welfare standard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good's that's excellent. And how do you
approach stock in density and are.
Speaker 3: Listing so the stocking density that we manage in our
pens is at three kilograms per treek meters. That's what
we manage and how we are able to manage it is.
Speaker 2: We have robs, remotely operated.
Speaker 3: Robots that we use to monitor the tuna pens daily
and those cameras our team also measures the tuna, so
we follow on a monthly basis how much our tuna
has grown in Therefore, world will to also manage the
stocking density. We see a population within any of those
pens that is growing a lot, well, we know that
we need to harvest it pretty soon to be able
to relieve some of that excess of tuna that we
might have. And also running broadening a little bit more
of the conversation and how we take care of our
tuna we have We monitor its health daily and we
also clean the tuna pens daily because visibility is a
key factor and when we have a lot of algae
that attaches itself to the pens, it lowers stability drastically
and therefore it reduces how much our tuna eats. So
we also have a roof that allows us to clean
these tuna pens automatically and our team goes i'd say
we clean the whole farm and around twenty to twenty
five days, depending just on different factors, right, how much
work our team has. But this is part of the
continuous operation that we follow to be able to ensure
the best environment for our tuna and then go into
the harvesting side.
Speaker 2: We practice e kijimi for the harvest.
Speaker 3: So this basically for the audience that doesn't know, we
stun the fish and after we stun this fish, we.
Speaker 2: Quickly I don't know the best way to explain this.
Speaker 3: We have a diver that that is in the water
and after tunas are stunned, they grab them and they
kill them, make them brain dead.
Speaker 2: They spike their brain in case they didn't.
Speaker 3: Die by the electrical stunt, and afterwards they bleed them
out and continue to.
Speaker 2: Hold sacrifice sacrifice method, and we've.
Speaker 3: Seen that this is the most humane and stress free
way that we can sacrifice our fish. I'd say any harvest,
if if anybody has seen a harvest, doesn't matter the
species there's it's always going to be a more bloody scene.
But we try to make it as human as possible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good, that's good. The thing that is wondering,
I thought it was interesting when you were saying about
the if it's if you don't clean it, these either
food consumption go down. Because I'm just thinking if I
fish would just say the tuna were in the wild
and there was bad weather, well the bottom would be
stirred up and it would be difficult for them to
see in a natural environment.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not an.
Speaker 2: Expert under behavior in the wild.
Speaker 3: Therefore I'd say that I'm probably not the proper person
to answer the question as right.
Speaker 1: No, no, No, I wasn't I wasn't there. I didn't
mean I was wanting to you to answer that. I
was just it was just a thought that they would
they would come across that in the wild. So I
do you feel that they're eating what they're seeing?
Speaker 3: Yes, definitely, definitely, we've seen it in the farm. Actually,
that one of the parameters that we take into account
whenever we're gonna feed. If we have very low visibility
levels in the water because I don't know, there's high
microalogy concentration, for example, or it's just bad weather, we
drastically reduce the amount of feed that we're gonna give
to the tuna.
Speaker 2: Or if it's just too bad weather, we just don't
feed it.
Speaker 3: Because we know that that's not gonna be eaten, it's
gonna all go to the seabed floor. So that that
is one of the key parameters that our front team
looks at whenever we're taking daily decisions on the feed
because of course we have it planned, but as you
and your listeners also know, the sea is always unpredictable.
Speaker 2: So any plan that you have, the sea has other plants.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is that a point where productivity and welfare coming
to conflict? Do you hoddle that?
Speaker 3: I think we praior is the welfare. We prioritize the
welfare over the production because.
Speaker 2: The main stains, one of the main stays of our
brand is the quality of the fish.
Speaker 3: And as I was mentioning before, we know that if
we want a high quality fish, we need not only
a high quality operation, but also the high quality care.
So we will always prioritize the welfare of the tuna
over the production.
Speaker 2: And some of those examples.
Speaker 3: Of course, as we're mentioning, not feeding the fish, although
you might lose a few pounds of not growing them
out whenever there's bad weather, but it's just a stressful situation,
so you're not going to priordice that and.
Speaker 2: Just other ways that we.
Speaker 3: Do that of course is having a harvest that takes
a longer time. So our heart risks sometimes can take
up to six hours.
Speaker 2: Because of the way that we do it.
Speaker 3: So it is an intense operation, but good things same time.
Speaker 2: Yeh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what empact do your farms have on sundin
but in ecosystem.
Speaker 3: So at least from the studies that we do periodically
on the water quality and the sediment quality is minimum.
Speaker 2: So fortunately, as I'm mentioning, because.
Speaker 3: Of the type of feed that we give, the impact
on the CB four has at least from what we've
been studying, minimal.
Speaker 2: To very low.
Speaker 3: Furthermore, there is a.
Speaker 2: A the island that's right behind us Coronado Islands.
Speaker 3: It's a natural protected area by the Mexican government, and
we have a close relationship with an angio here in
California that that studies protects the habitats and all islands
throughout the Pacific coast.
Speaker 2: And from our talks.
Speaker 3: With them, the at least from a seber because they
specific they specialize in seber populations.
Speaker 2: From a seber perspective, the.
Speaker 3: Species of populations have stayed practically the same.
Speaker 2: We haven't seen any impact in that point of view.
Speaker 3: And also a very important thing they haven't mentioned is
where we're located is far up the coast and that
and therefore we have very strong marine currence in that area.
Speaker 2: So yeah, we have. Yeah, so we are fortunate.
Speaker 3: Enough to have a space where it's naturally deprivated. So
at least from the studies that we've made, we've seen
a low impact on the local ecosystem.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that'll be important. That'll be important for the
quality of the tuna as well.
Speaker 2: Will it the muscle of course, of course, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. How do you monitor see bad health waste and
by a diversity around your site.
Speaker 3: So wasted byrdiversity? How we monitor it? We have cameras
that we take to the seabed floor and it's the
same rough that we use for the nets that's able
to stay right next to the net, and also we
take it down to the sebent floor and we go
throughout all of depends.
Speaker 2: We have a planning so one month we're.
Speaker 3: Monitor one area of the farm, another month another area
of the farm, and that way we're able to cover
the whole farm and span anywhere from two to three
months depending on the frequency. We've lowered that frequency actually
because when we started the monitors, we did that weekly
and we noticed that there was very low impact and
very low waste on the seabed floor, so that changed
to quarter every two weeks, and then it changed two monthly.
Speaker 2: So that's how we monitor that is from a visual
point of view.
Speaker 3: So we have biologists that look into the species that
we're looking at, how many species we're looking at, and
also looking at spots in the sea for in case
there's like white spots where there's have integradation. We haven't
identified any of those white spots where we have degraded
cbit floor. And from the first question, we take samples
from the ce bit floor every six months and we
analyze those in independent laboratories to see more from a
chemical and biological point of view. And in those analysis
we base off of Friends of Disease certification and what
they dictate within the parameters that we need to monitor.
So we monitor those parameters in the certification and that
gives a good screenshot on the health I know, and
we know that it is much more than that. But
that's the way that we started and as we continue
to progress within our sustainability strategy will continue to enhance
the studies to have a broader perspective.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, if I say it shows saying this of
environmental study and what action would you take, then.
Speaker 2: Well, the first action that we would take is.
Speaker 3: We would need to see if it's the whole farm
that is affected or if it's only part of the farm.
Speaker 2: If there's only one part of the farm that's.
Speaker 3: Effective, we would take those pens out of that region
and we have other agricultural concessions that we could take
those pens to and that way the site is left
off to replenish.
Speaker 2: So and in case the whole site was that was
the condition for the whole site, we would need to.
Speaker 6: Have a proper planning to see if we would be
able to allocate the whole farm to our other sites,
and if so, that would be the action.
Speaker 2: If not, we would.
Speaker 3: Need to maintain some of the pens there rotating in
different areas of the concession, and the rest move to
our other concessions that we have more to the south,
because as I mentioned, those are that consition that we
mainly operate is near the border, and we will need
to take those pens to more here to the south.
So that flexibility that we have as a company is
also a way to manage that potential risk because of course,
whenever we have an intensive feeding operation, there will come
up time where we will probably need to let that
site rest, and that's why as a company there'ents some
effort to diversify different areas where we can farm.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, is there any certification standards you work with?
Speaker 3: Well, currently we have only Friends of the Sea, and
it mainly has to do with their certifications for agriculture
and their certifications for fishing. There's no certifications for farming
and that's something that we've come across in the space,
which is why, as I mentioned, we're focusing on certifying
the fishing practices for the extraction of our feed and
further tipeline, we want to do the same for bluefin tuna.
Speaker 2: So in a sense, since we're not able to certify
our farm by a C or.
Speaker 3: BAP because it is not agriculture, and since the product
cannot go with the label of MSc because it's not
fishing either, our strategy is.
Speaker 2: Similar to a let's say a hotel.
Speaker 3: A hotel has a supply change, sustainable supply chain policy.
So the procurement policy is going to tell them that
they can only buy fish from MSc certified or AC certified.
Speaker 2: We're doing the same with our farm.
Speaker 3: We're only gonna enter to our farm feed that comes
from an MBSC certified fishery, and we're only gonna stuck
in poop and two that comes from an MSc certified fishery.
This way we're able to ensure everything that goes in
already comes from a sustainable managed population. And then it's
just focusing on the aquacultural practices and adheering to standards,
although being mindful that we cannot certify the farm itself
because there's no farming certifications, Okay, so there are more
so references and how we should properly manage it.
Speaker 1: Power do certifications reflect what's really happening on the water.
Speaker 3: I think they are a good mechanism for consumers to
have a good idea on some of the practices that
go on farms. But I would not call it the
do all, end all, because if we're taking actions to,
for example, how do you manage your waste?
Speaker 2: Not only the waste.
Speaker 3: And I'm not talking specifically the waste from that is
generated by the fish in the water, but the waste
from our operation, how do you manage it?
Speaker 2: Or how do you manage your carbon footprint?
Speaker 3: Ac In this the latest version of the standards, they
included carbon footprint within it and carbon production plants, and
I think that that's great. But before that we didn't
see that as an industry, how do you manage your
water footprint? So I think all those certifications like I
mentioned are a good way for consumers to be able
to have more visibility and how companies operate.
Speaker 2: There's still a lot of things that are.
Speaker 7: Not are not possible to cover with those certifications, and
we need to do a little bit more of a
deep dive from a consumer point of view on what.
Speaker 2: Companies do in specific topics.
Speaker 3: And that's a reason why we last year we published
our first sustainability report, a Deer to the GI Standard.
That way we can give our consumers, clients, and any
stakeholders interested more visibility of our operation, and not only
from an environmental point of view, but also from a
social and labor practice point of view, because sustainability is
not only about the environment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you feel sustainable that he's got a cost?
Speaker 3: Well, it depends because not implementing sustainable practices for me
has a much higher costs, but the cost is just
distributed to different affected stakeholders. So talking about cost, if
I'm going to I don't know, say a pipe cream,
We're gonna put all one hundred percent renewable energy on
the farm, Right, that'd be awesome, but it's very complex.
Speaker 2: But let's say we are able to do that.
Speaker 3: Yes, they will have a high capex cost and in
the short term it will have an impact on our
shareholders' pockets. But I argue first that we'll have an
ROI that allows our shareholders to recoup that investment. And
more so than that, as I mentioned, if they were
not to take that cost themselves, that cost is extrapolated
to the rest of the population in the world that
live within a climate that's segraining. So whenever we don't
invest in sustainability, I think we're just extornating cost to others.
Speaker 2: Rather another example, if we were.
Speaker 3: Not if which is not the case, but if we
were not to invest in security, well, if we don't
ensure that we have a no securities are your safety
If we were not to have a safe operation, well
you're extoranating the cost of not having the proper practices
to your employee. If he suffers an injury, he's going
to have that cost rather.
Speaker 2: Than the churchholders.
Speaker 3: So whenever we invest in sustainability, I think we are
just investing in people in the environment.
Speaker 2: And although this will come.
Speaker 3: From a economic point of view as a cost to
shareholders or the company itself, if we were not to
do that investment, I think we're externating costs to the
environment or community or the employees.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I get that. I don't think if a
question is gonna ask you, there's no I think you've
already answered it. In tougher market conditions, what gets tested
first margin or sustainable sustainability commitments?
Speaker 3: That's that's a great question. Well, I think it's company dependent.
It's it depends on It comes down to the prior
use of the shareholders. And also looking if you have
tough market conditions, how long those tough market conditions are.
Speaker 2: Going to last?
Speaker 3: And again, what's the risk appetite that the shareholders of
the company might happen?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 3: Are they comfortable with going with the risks of a
tougher market for a six month period or if it's
very uncertain will that lead to different decision making. I
think that that's hard question to answer because it varies
from company to company. I'll do a caveat that I
would put for back performances. Fortunately, we have a I
think we have a product that although right now I'd
say the market is very unstable with everything that's going
on around the world, wars and everything.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to get political here, so I will go
into that for that. But although we have those conditions within.
Speaker 3: The market that are restricting the consumption of our products,
our product has been able to stay afload, and I
think that just.
Speaker 2: Talks highly about again, the quality of the product.
Speaker 3: So although I think Bluefin Tuna is a product that
competes with a lot of different proteins in the premium market,
but we've been able to stay with the steady demand.
Speaker 2: Think to what we have operating a company.
Speaker 3: Stable supply three hundred and sixty five days a year,
and you know that it's always going to be a
high quality product. So maybe those tough market conditions don't
affect us as much.
Speaker 2: Therefore, our shareholders are also able to.
Speaker 3: Not be restricted as much by those market conditions to
take any decision regarding sustainability investments.
Speaker 1: But I would have said, I would have thought anyway, Rodrigo,
with the ethics and all you've talked about with your operation,
I know from plastic experience, but I would say, if
it was a tough market situation, I think people would
still go for your product first.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that I would hope for the same
the same.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, you've got standards that you keep and they're high,
and I'm quite sure like every other industry, there'll be
those that are not. The standards are not so high.
Speaker 2: Yes we know that.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, of course, of course they all have names
in last names right by. I think that's the step
that the company's taking right now, and because when we
look at it, sustainability is really new for this company.
The department started basically twenty twenty two, right, so our
efforts are I'd say that we're just looking at We're
in the first one hundred meters of a marathon, so
I think we have a long way to go still.
But as you mentioned, I think that the practices that
we're putting forth and we're putting out there are leading
to a higher loyalty from our consumers, and we take
part at that.
Speaker 1: When you are to a standard, there's no question you
do get that loyalty.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yes.
Speaker 1: Our consumers driving change or is it coming from retailers
or the supply chain?
Speaker 2: I think both.
Speaker 3: I think both, and it just depends where you are
in the within the whole chain supply chain. For example,
we are not yet, but we're still not yet a
consumer facing company.
Speaker 2: What I mean by that is you're not going to
go to.
Speaker 3: Whole Foods tomorrow or Costco and see Blue Vena Steaks.
We sell directly to distributors retailers, so and I think
it is cascades down right. So we see it from
the retailer and distributors are pressuring us to improve our standards,
but that comes from hey, demand from the consumer side,
and consumer that is saying, hey, we want sustainable products,
we want protein that is properly sourced. We want traceability
in our seafood, we want to know where this fish
come from, especially thinking about all the IUU that goes
around the world. I think that it comes from consumers
and it's elevated by distributors and retailers directly to producers.
Speaker 2: And we need to adhere to that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what innovations are you most focused on right now?
Is it feeds technology or offshore systems.
Speaker 3: It's feed technology. We've started this transition in twenty twenty three.
Well at the end of twenty twentye in October, we
installed the first centralized feeding system for bluefintuna in the world,
and we are aiming for in twenty twenty seven having
the second centralized feeding system for bluefintuna in the world,
and that way we will be able to feed one
hundred percent of our farm with two centralized feeding systems.
Speaker 2: So the next person I would imagine is what is
what are these centralized feeding systems?
Speaker 3: So similar to the sound farming where you're have a
let's call it a mother ship that feeds all the pens,
we want to do the same in blueing tuna and
bluefing tuna. How it's traditionally been done is we used
so at least when I first arrived to this company,
we used to have I think it was like ten
or twelve boats, and there were these feeding boats that
will go around the whole farm, feeding the tunas and
basically just pumping from It was very archistenal method.
Speaker 2: If you go to other parts of the world. They
will still use.
Speaker 3: Shovels to shovel sardine, or you'll have just a simple
pump and it goes from a PBC tube.
Speaker 2: Just dropping to the pens.
Speaker 3: So what happened, First, we had a lower utilization factor
from the tuna. Second, like I mentioned, these were ten
to twelve boats that were growing around the farm, so
we have a much higher carbon footprint. Secondly, the conditions
for our people in this smaller boat. There were old boats.
Speaker 2: Very small, they weren't ideal.
Speaker 3: So going from those smaller boats that were inefficient on feeding,
they were inefficient on diesel consumption, we go to two
only two boats that feed the whole operation. We have
much better conditions. We have a gym for the people,
we have bigger spaces for them to rest. So I
think we are able to improve living conditions for the people.
We were able to reduce the amount of diesel that
we consume, and therefore we're just in our carbon footprint
and we're able to also feed better and have a
higher utilization factor, which in the long.
Speaker 2: Run leads to taking less startines out of the water.
Speaker 3: And this has been a operational transformation that we've been
undergoing and this is where we put our efforts and
the shareholders have put an investment to that sounds good.
Speaker 1: Are we moving towards genuinely low impact aquaculture or just
incrementally improving.
Speaker 3: I think we're still in the incrementally improving phase. We
still have a ways to go.
Speaker 2: And it's not entirely because of the industry.
Speaker 3: And again I wouldn't like to generalize, because each company
is doing their own efforts and each industry is and
I say that each industry is in a different maturing
process moving too. An ranching has been around in Mexico
for thirty years, and when you compare that to maybe
oyster farming.
Speaker 2: Or that has much more years and it's.
Speaker 3: Also less intensive, I'd say that they are further along
just because of the nature of the species itself.
Speaker 2: Oysters. They the bibles themselves just for filter feeders.
Speaker 3: Right. So I think we're still We're still improving. We
have a ways to go, but I see a lot
of positive change. And if you were to ask me,
what do I see in the horizon that really inspires me,
I'm just seeing I think it was in more way
that they installed off grid floating systems to have renewable
energy for the farm. I think those are the next
steps that we as an industry we need to start taking.
So for example, today now at the level maybe in
twenty twenty seven, when we have only two boats basically
feeding the.
Speaker 2: Whole farm, well, most of our load is going to
be an electrical load.
Speaker 3: It's going to be electrical load because it's not going
to be the main ships motor that is operating the
operation itself, is going to be generators that we have
on the vessel that feed the feeding system, to feed refrigeration,
to feed all the electrical loads within the boat. So
if most of the energy being consumer is electrical load,
that's great news.
Speaker 2: Because you're able to transition to renewable energy. So I
think that's a step in the horizon.
Speaker 3: And another one that's I think fascinating and honestly very
interesting regarding environmental impact of the farms and is having
integrated agriculture systems.
Speaker 2: So maybe.
Speaker 3: I'm not saying this is say something for today or
for tomorrow, but a few years down the line, having
algae within our farm, while also having eye dolls within
our farm to be able to drastically reduce the impact
that we have naturally in the farm itself. So I
think those are still the next steps that we need
to take as an industry and having a more holistic
approach to sustainability.
Speaker 1: That sounds very interesting, But what you might say, I'm
a bit confused, But I would have thought something that
would have been good for yourselves and Bacha Farms would
be the fact that tuna is such a high value
you're not having to just constantly be thinking of.
Speaker 2: Volumes that allow That helps us a lot. Yes, definitely, yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely.
We actually.
Speaker 3: Currently there's there's ongoing UH talks at international level between
the different different companies different countries that operate these RFMOs,
the regional fishery management organizations that manage the stocks of
bluefin tuna, and at least what from a Mexico point
of view industry point of view, what we're pushing for
is the least amount of the least amount of growth
within the quotas. We want the quotas to stay as
they are right now because we want to because we're
mindful that this is a stock that was depleted in
twenty ten. Fortunately, as of twenty twenty two, the species
recovered is officially not over fish anymore. We wanted to
get to a point where it's a sustainable population, and
I think we're right in.
Speaker 2: The cusp of that. And for us, yeah, we don't
want more fish.
Speaker 3: But the question was regarding where do we see this
industry within the sustainability path, And that's why, that's why
my answer was that right, because we see I think
we want to push for sustainability not as a.
Speaker 2: Not as a.
Speaker 3: Slogan for the brand, but as something real that we
adopt as a company. And therefore we need to be
always pushing for more, always pushing to how can we
improve our operation, how can we be not only more efficient,
but how can we get to a point where we're
a net positive operation in which the amount of value
that we extract from the environment we're able to give
back just as much.
Speaker 1: Yeah I didn't volu you.
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Do you see a realistic to fully decarbonized aquaculture?
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 3: It's that that's a very good question, and it's complex
because it involves innovation in different spaces. So to be
able to have a fully decarbonized aquaculture industry, we also
need shipping, and from airline shipping to become fully decarbonized,
because that's how we get the product to our consumers.
Speaker 2: To apply, we also need innovation in ships.
Speaker 3: So today we see that shipping has now hydrogen vessels
down the pipeline, but we're have we seeing any of
that innovation for fishing vessels, for example. So I think
there's still innovation that needs to go in marine engineering,
in the shipping industry, specifically air shipping industry, to be
able to get to a fully decarbonized agriculture. Because the
operation itself, yeah, I think most of it can be
de carbonized, but everything that has to do with taking
fish out of the water and taking the fish from
our plant to our consumer. Those two which are the
most critical drivers for the growth of of the carbon footprint.
Those are the ones that need to be tended to.
And those are Although the agoculture industry should put pressure
to that and we are, it needs to come from
different industries as well.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, And what would you feel was the biggest
misconception people have about farmed fish.
Speaker 2: I think the biggest misconception that people have about farm
fish is that.
Speaker 3: It is an unhealthy or non natural protein source, and
they rather drift away from aquacultural products, and they rather
choose beef or pork or maybe a fish that was
caught by the local fishermen.
Speaker 2: And although I think it's super important to continue to
put first and.
Speaker 3: Foremost in our list uh local produce and of course
that that local fishermen to continue helping them. Comparing seafood
and general aquaculture products with beef, pork, lamb, I mean,
it's not even a conversation from life cycle and analysis
and ecological footprint point of view, it is a much
more responsible source protein to have the almost any aquaculture
species rather than those other proteins. So I think the
consumers whenever they hear all they use antibiotics or the
classic in salmon farming that the color the salmons have
are is not natural when it comes from farming, this
misconception that that is unhealthy or bad for them.
Speaker 2: That's and and I think that is still.
Speaker 3: Affecting consumers decisions, and we need to it's a global population.
Speaker 2: I think we need to start consuming much more seafood,
not only not only because.
Speaker 3: We need to source more protein, healthy protein sources for
our population, but also because we need to start driving
down the consumption of proteins that have a high ecological footprint.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and with that, is there any sort of criticism
you would say the industry just maybe it doesn't quite
yet getting right.
Speaker 2: I think the.
Speaker 3: Industry itself is doing a really good job to listening
to what consumers are asking for. I think that we
need to improve how we communicate those efforts that companies.
Speaker 2: Are are putting to attend to those criticisms.
Speaker 3: And honestly, just at least from the short time that
I've been in the seafood industry, I've never seen any
criticisms that are taking.
Speaker 2: A negative point of view. I think most of them
are seen as constructive. Right.
Speaker 3: For example, we hear what people say about what're taking
from natural stocks. I hear that we're conscious of that,
so we're trying to do our best to have sustainable
fishing stocks. And whenever I've seen again criticism to the industry,
you know, we need to source better sourcing for alternative feed.
So you're starting to see a lot of innovation and
bring indifferent even cricket protein to the mix for feed
for aguaculture. So I think the industry is doing a
good job to tending those criticisms and that I think
today is not maybe not as visible because those changes
take time.
Speaker 2: It's not a straightforward process.
Speaker 3: To go from one fee for another, or to changing
how you operate a farm, or you know, changing where
you source your fish from.
Speaker 2: It takes time.
Speaker 3: So I think maybe some changes are still not as
visible as consumers might want them to be. But I'd
use this question to say, I think in general, the
seafood industry is doing a good job, and maybe what
we're lacking is more on how we properly communicate what
we're doing to those systems.
Speaker 1: No, that's good, that's good. I wasn't trying to cut
that one. If we're sitting here again ten years, what
would success look like to bacha aqua farms.
Speaker 3: I think for us is I go back to have
we been able to innovate, to tend to our the
critical points that I mentioned at the beginning of this interview, right,
So I mentioned the extraction of natural resources that was
being sardines, anchovies, and tuna, the impact that we have
on our farming, our current footprints.
Speaker 2: So in ten years from now, what.
Speaker 3: Would look at successes having all of the fisheries that
we take fish from, anchovies already and tuna all having
them MSCY certified with above ninety grades and all those certifications,
meaning that we've highly improved the management of those resources.
And therefore the maybe those questions on are we deplete
in the resources are not only tended to, but also
we are certain that those fish are going to be
in the water for a much longer period of time. Second,
having some type of aquaculture integrated agriculture system.
Speaker 2: I think for us that.
Speaker 3: And we were not able to talk about it in
this conversation, is the impact that we have from toxic
algae blooms that happen just because of the region one
that we're at.
Speaker 2: So also again going back.
Speaker 3: To fish welfare, there's different studies that show that combining
macro algae within fin fish operations as a very high
positive impact on not only the ecoystem itself, but also
as a mechanism to reduce the impact by Mike Raby
because they compete with them.
Speaker 2: And finally.
Speaker 3: Integrating renewable energy to our farm to start reducing what
we can reduce. So, as I mentioned, maybe we're not
able to reduce the carbon fruit from from the fishing vessels,
nor the export of fishing, but where we operate, the
site that we operate, being able to start the transition
to renewable energy. I think those three components, certifying our fisheries,
having renewable energy installed the farm, and having an integrated
aguaculture system at the farm as well.
Speaker 2: Those three components, I'd say that would be an evidence
of a successful sustainability strategy.
Speaker 1: That's good. And would there be any would you say,
what would fail looked like and what's at risk if
the industry doesn't get it right?
Speaker 2: Well, I think the first part of it.
Speaker 3: If we don't get it right, if we're not able
to certify those fishing stocks, the whole narrative collapses because
if we're not able to certify those fishing stocks is
for a reason. It's because those stocks are not a
a sustainable state. And if we're not able to ensure that, well,
that means that we need to reduce how much fish
we're taking out of the water, and maybe that means
shrinking the industry.
Speaker 2: So that would be my answer. The industry would need
to shrink because of the depletion of natural resources.
Speaker 3: So I think the stakes are very high. And secondly,
if we are not able to start decarbonizing our industry.
We're gonna fall behind all of the other industries that
are putting a lot of effort into that. And I
think in general food system it's it's becoming a topic
that is in top of mind of a lot of consumers.
What's the carbon footprint? Refine our proteins. So we might
not be able to compete as a boop intuna industry.
Maybe again solment or maybe against.
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: Maybe a lot of people go more into bibilops and
they starting a lot more oysters clamps. So I think
that we can lose market if we are not able
to have these things right. So we have two answers.
Having to drink are just stocks that we're taking out
and therefore shrinking the operation, and the other risk is
to market share.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's good answers. Have you a pressure from
when you're talking about destainability and the bonds and cuts
and things, Are you have your pressure from environmental NGOs
where you.
Speaker 3: Are definitely definitely a lot of course there's pressure, But I,
like I mentioned, I think that pressure is necessary. I mean,
I'm not I'm not gonna come here to your podcast
and say that the industry is where it needs to be. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So and sometimes sometimes.
Speaker 3: If you ask me, and I am sure if you
ask other stinkabilely professionals, Sometimes that criticism that comes from
outside is welcomed because we need pressure from different sides
to be able to push for the change that is needed.
Speaker 2: So I welcome that criticism.
Speaker 3: I welcome that pressure because sometimes it also opens our
eyes to things that we were maybe blind to.
Speaker 1: That's very healthy. The problem sometimes it's found here is
a whale called fishing, and they have endless amounts of
money on the industry doesn't have that.
Speaker 3: I mean, as long as criticism is, as long as
the criticism comes from science perspective and not narrative perspective,
I think it's healthy when and I think that's when
the industry sometimes clashes with some NGOs, is that some
engeos out there are driving other private interests and not
science based nor ecological reasons. It's yeah, So that's when
the world starts at this conversation starts getting distorted because
you're talking about what's the interest that you're really defending, right, So,
if you're not coming from an environmental and science point
of view, and it's being more driven by who's your sponsor.
Speaker 2: That's where we have a lot of issues, I.
Speaker 1: Think, yeah, yeah, no, what I was more coming from there,
Rodrigo was the problem. Sometimes there's work. Well, no, I'll
put it another way. And I've actually had this quote
from a scientist. He says there's a massive difference between
afficialty scientist and an environmental scientist.
Speaker 2: Definitely huge difference.
Speaker 1: Yeah, huge, Yeah, Rodrigo, where can our listeners follow you online?
If you have a social media presence.
Speaker 3: You can follow us at Bajaco Firms dot USA and
that's where they can follow us on our Instagram. Uh,
and if anybody wants to link with me, they can
find me on LinkedIn by my name. That's indeed my
socials Instagram is really more for personal reasons.
Speaker 2: I don't feel a lot of professional work out there.
Speaker 3: But yeah, they definitely go followed by Hako froms dot
USA and Instagram, Facebook pages, and you can also find
us on TikTok and for me personally, you can find
me in LinkedIn by my name.
Speaker 1: Excellent. Well, thank you very much. We'll just fold up
and appreciate your time, Rodrigo, and I hope things go
very well for.
Speaker 2: You, thank you very much. Jim, it was a pleasure
have any and you thank you.