Speaker 1: With Laurent's Segoland from London and Gerard Reed from Berlin.
Speaker 1: This is Redefining Energy Today. On Redefining Energy, we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about wind, the state of the wind industry.
Speaker 2: And winners faced difficult yes recently, supply chain issues, technical issues,
Speaker 2: but despite that, it continues to grow. So it was
Speaker 2: probably time to get on the show. Ben Backwell, who
Speaker 2: is the head of the Global Wind Energy Council, and
Speaker 2: he really has a view on everything that's happening from
Speaker 2: China to Europe to America, and he was calling us
Speaker 2: from benn where he is preparing.
Speaker 1: Cop Yeah, so why don't we bring him on the show?
Speaker 3: Ben, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4: Good morning, Lauren, Marna Jareds.
Speaker 3: First question.
Speaker 2: You've been leading the Global World Energy cancial for about
Speaker 2: seven years. What is the Global Wind Energy Council.
Speaker 5: So, the Global Wind Energy Council represents the private sector
Speaker 5: in the wind energy industry. So we represent the corporates
Speaker 5: which are manufacturers, developers, technology companies. We also represent the
Speaker 5: associations around the world, so the associations in Brazil, in Japan,
Speaker 5: in South Africa, in the US and so on. So
Speaker 5: we're the voice of the wind industry, and we essentially
Speaker 5: talk to governments around wind energy and its benefit and
Speaker 5: why you should be doing wind. So that's what we're about,
Speaker 5: and we're really involved intensely in trying to develop new markets.
Speaker 5: I mean that's always been our things that we were
Speaker 5: involved in the very early days of India, China, South Africa, Brazil.
Speaker 5: More recently we've been working in places like Vietnam and
Speaker 5: the Philippines. We work a lot on offshore wind now
Speaker 5: over the last five ten years to develop that market
Speaker 5: around the world. Yeah, we're out there telling the story
Speaker 5: for the wind industry and trying to develop the right
Speaker 5: regulation and policy around wind.
Speaker 4: Can we sort of maybe just to talk a little
Speaker 4: bit about the stage of the industry as you see
Speaker 4: it now, right.
Speaker 5: It's an interesting moment. So wind's been growing fast over
Speaker 5: twenty years, as you guys know, it's gone from being
Speaker 5: a very small, almost kind of hobby industry maybe thirty
Speaker 5: forty years ago to now a big global industry and
Speaker 5: it's still growing pretty fast. So we've reached one terrawa
Speaker 5: of wind energy around the world a couple of years ago.
Speaker 5: We're breaking records in terms of new installations and this
Speaker 5: year twenty twenty four. We think we've probably reached about
Speaker 5: one hundred and twenty gigawatts of installations this year, probably
Speaker 5: a bit more, maybe one hundred and forty.
Speaker 2: Sorry for our listeners. That's double what it was ten
Speaker 2: years ago. So it's remarkable because we hear our WIN
Speaker 2: is not working and no, guys, we've been doubling WIN.
Speaker 2: We've been doubling the past ten years. So this is
Speaker 2: a growing industry. And I want to go on the runt,
Speaker 2: but maybe I'll do the runt a bit later.
Speaker 5: Just go on, Ben, I'm looking forward to the rank.
Speaker 3: Lauren.
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, we're on the trajectory i'd say of doubling,
Speaker 5: probably around twenty thirty twenty twenty thirty one mark. So
Speaker 5: that's the good news. You know, we're growing. I guess
Speaker 5: the not so good news is we're not growing fast enough,
Speaker 5: both in terms of meeting the energy climate targets that
Speaker 5: countries have, but also in terms of playing our role
Speaker 5: within the transition. And maybe we can dig into that
Speaker 5: wind plays a really important role within the transition. It's
Speaker 5: not just about the giga what's installed, it's about the
Speaker 5: gigaw's produced by wind, and it's about the relatively high
Speaker 5: capacity factors that wind has compared to some of the
Speaker 5: other renewed energy sources. So wind is going to play
Speaker 5: a really important role in terms of the actually energy
Speaker 5: produced in the energy transition. And we're not going fast enough.
Speaker 5: I guess the other challenge is that we're not growing
Speaker 5: in all the right places the right speed. If you
Speaker 5: look at maybe twenty twenty five that we're in at
Speaker 5: the moment, we could probably expect something maybe up to
Speaker 5: one hundred and fifty gigwatts of new installations, but probably
Speaker 5: even up to one hundred giga's is going to me
Speaker 5: in China, China being by far the biggest market now,
Speaker 5: and that's not a bad thing, that's a good thing.
Speaker 5: So the challenge for us is we need to be
Speaker 5: going much faster everywhere else in the world. So you've
Speaker 5: got a few places are doing pretty well. You've got
Speaker 5: the kind of big markets China, the European Union, the US,
Speaker 5: up and down India.
Speaker 3: You've got many.
Speaker 5: Other places where the progress is just way too slow.
Speaker 4: Can I ask you, if you're talking about the hundred giga,
Speaker 4: what's going to China? Right when you talk about that
Speaker 4: fifty Gigawa's that's not going to China, and just how
Speaker 4: the various markets there are performing. You said, the European market,
Speaker 4: the US market, and then by the way, anything else
Speaker 4: in terms of sort of you know new markets that
Speaker 4: are coming up that you think, oh my god, it
Speaker 4: could be really exciting.
Speaker 3: For on shore.
Speaker 5: What we're seeing now is India speeding up. Germany's doing
Speaker 5: really well now that they've reformed the planning laws, the
Speaker 5: UK is coming back, and there's also place like the
Speaker 5: Middle East now right which are completely new markets. And
Speaker 5: we're talking about places like Egypt. We're also talking about
Speaker 5: Saudi becoming a a pretty important market. You've also got
Speaker 5: places like Central Asia now that are doing big on
Speaker 5: your wind projects. And then you've got offshore, which is
Speaker 5: growing faster than the average of wind as a whole.
Speaker 5: And there you've got, on top of the European Union, China, UK,
Speaker 5: you've also got these places now like Japan, Korea, Philippines, Vietnam,
Speaker 5: all of which now have big off your wind targets
Speaker 5: and are trying to implement. So there's good new areas
Speaker 5: of growth coming as well.
Speaker 2: Okay, can I start my rant, guys.
Speaker 5: Yeah, go go ahead of the rant.
Speaker 3: Let's hear it.
Speaker 2: Okay, So my rant is the following. If there was
Speaker 2: no wind industry, basically we would need.
Speaker 3: Two more Qatar.
Speaker 2: The number of attacks that this industry has been subject
Speaker 2: to were a victim of a cultural war from the
Speaker 2: extreme right. Those people who don't know nothing. We see
Speaker 2: them in the press in Europe. In the US, they're
Speaker 2: supported by the fascify industry, sometimes even the nuclear lobby.
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, if you look
Speaker 2: at the name of those people, which I don't want
Speaker 2: to name because they don't deserve to be named, they
Speaker 2: are also supporting Russia. So an attack on the wind
Speaker 2: is an attack on freedom.
Speaker 3: That's it. I finished my runt.
Speaker 4: That was a very early round for you, you know sometimes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but Benni's in belems be so that's very early
Speaker 2: for him. And talk about the Cup because the wind
Speaker 2: industry has a very important role to play in the Cup.
Speaker 3: So how is Bedam going.
Speaker 5: Well, it's seven o'clock in the morning and it's pouring
Speaker 5: there with rain and it's hot, but it's a great place.
Speaker 5: It's beautiful and people are incredibly welcoming. You can see
Speaker 5: all the preparations going up all around the city and
Speaker 5: we're meeting with the state authorities today. We've been in
Speaker 5: Brazili at the last few days meeting with federal authorities
Speaker 5: around the Cup and the COP president and see team
Speaker 5: in different ministries. So yeah, it's always exciting coming to
Speaker 5: Brazil and this year COP is pretty important both for
Speaker 5: renewables and for win. Why because it's what they call
Speaker 5: Global stock take Year, which is when countries have to
Speaker 5: come and put their numbers on the table and show
Speaker 5: what they're really doing in terms of carbon reduction. It's
Speaker 5: also a year where countries need to come and present
Speaker 5: their NDCs, which are their targets in terms of implementation
Speaker 5: in terms of energy and climate. So these are them
Speaker 5: nationally determined contributions. So it's a pretty important year and
Speaker 5: maybe related to your rant Alaurum, we come at this
Speaker 5: at a time when renewables is being attacked and especially
Speaker 5: where wind has been attacked now for several years. There's
Speaker 5: a lot of disinformation out there, there's a lot of
Speaker 5: noise out there, a lot of it coming from the
Speaker 5: same place, and there's an attempt to undermine the international
Speaker 5: frameworks around this and that can have its effects. Especially
Speaker 5: important this year that the world comes together that there's
Speaker 5: a sensible discussion that to the willing of countries and
Speaker 5: actors that are pushing forward the energy transition come together,
Speaker 5: and that we're really confident and firm in our commitment.
Speaker 3: You know, we can't let.
Speaker 5: This noise and disinformation on the mind of what we're doing.
Speaker 4: Ben, and I just like to follow on from what
Speaker 4: you said, and also from Laurent's rant, which is, I
Speaker 4: mean I'd come at a slightly different angle, which is
Speaker 4: we can't block this energy transition anymore.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: And when I hear people sort of say, oh, yeah,
Speaker 4: we need to build a nuclear because of AI, got
Speaker 4: good luck to you on that.
Speaker 1: I'll take you fifteen.
Speaker 4: Years to build a nuclear power station, doesn't help you
Speaker 4: with your AI. But actually I go and say, well,
Speaker 4: you want to build a CCGT, I go, good, look,
Speaker 4: you won't be able to get one of them till
Speaker 4: twenty thirty because you know, the order books are followed
Speaker 4: for g and Siemens and midsubci and.
Speaker 2: By the way, the price is double and the prices.
Speaker 4: So what this means is what a huge opportunity for
Speaker 4: the wind, the solar, the renewable industry going forward, because
Speaker 4: you've got a willing. Let's say buyer of Power and
Speaker 4: AI plus you've got man for electricity in the Western
Speaker 4: world going up for the first time in years.
Speaker 1: I look at it a slightly different way.
Speaker 4: I just got my god, economics is gonna win, energy
Speaker 4: security's going to win, and competition policy is going to win.
Speaker 4: So it's just about I don't say, ignoring the bullshit
Speaker 4: that we're hearing around, but just maybe going out with
Speaker 4: a different message, which is you can't resist renewables.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I tend to agree with you. We
Speaker 5: definitely shouldn't be panicking. We should definitely be keep calm
Speaker 5: and carry on, and we should be just going out
Speaker 5: there and walk in the walk and building. And I
Speaker 5: think it's really important that we don't get distracted just
Speaker 5: by all the noise, like you said, and we don't
Speaker 5: need to go out there and fight everything. We need
Speaker 5: to just show that what we're doing is effective and
Speaker 5: the economics are compelling. As you say. Having said that,
Speaker 5: one of the things we've realized over the last few
Speaker 5: years is that sometimes the politics can disrupt massively in
Speaker 5: a way that's really unhelpful for the transition. And if
Speaker 5: there's one thing I think to go to win specifically,
Speaker 5: I mean, our economics are compelling, and the role we
Speaker 5: need to play within the energy transition means that we
Speaker 5: need to be really central. But it's really hard to
Speaker 5: get things done in many places, and this is probably
Speaker 5: the main thing holding us back. It's not the economics
Speaker 5: in terms of price compared to other technologies, right, And
Speaker 5: it's not the economics in terms of us of the
Speaker 5: system impacts of wind. It's the fact that it takes way, way,
Speaker 5: way too long to get stuff done in many places.
Speaker 5: And there's many factors blocking us in many countries. And
Speaker 5: that's true even in the most favorable places like in
Speaker 5: the European Union or the UK. There's a lot of
Speaker 5: factors that blockers all the time. And you see that
Speaker 5: all around the world, and there's a kind of inertia,
Speaker 5: you know, kind of government inertia where the complexity seems
Speaker 5: to kind of just increase, the bureaucracy seems to kind
Speaker 5: of increase. And that really hurts us because, as you say,
Speaker 5: in terms of actually going out and building projects, we
Speaker 5: can do it a lot quicker than certainly the nuclear
Speaker 5: more than gas. As you say, this used waiting lists
Speaker 5: for many components for many other technologies, and so it
Speaker 5: absolutely makes sense. But what I see is this kind
Speaker 5: of idea that there's a silver bullet somewhere in the
Speaker 5: future that's going to solve all the energy problems, right,
Speaker 5: whether it's nuclear fusion or something or SMRs, and that's
Speaker 5: going to solve all the problems. In the meantime, it
Speaker 5: just kind of slow things down. And I think that's
Speaker 5: the danger. That's slow and then people tell around and say, well,
Speaker 5: this doesn't work.
Speaker 2: You've been listening a very popular episodes about Bill Gates,
Speaker 2: you know, and smell and all the click.
Speaker 3: But the old the old world.
Speaker 2: Was oh my god, yeah or your again.
Speaker 3: I mean.
Speaker 2: But also what I would like to pinpoint is that
Speaker 2: not only the industry is growing, but the technology is
Speaker 2: getting better. If you compare the type of turbines we
Speaker 2: put now on shore and offshore compared to say fifteen
Speaker 2: years ago, I mean, they have what triple size, so
Speaker 2: that they're bigger, there is less footprint, they are more productive.
Speaker 2: So this industry continues to innovate. I mean, I don't know,
Speaker 2: we're like we're talking about of shot to buying a
Speaker 2: twenty megawork.
Speaker 3: I remember the first one. They were like four or fivelence.
Speaker 2: So this is this is remarkable.
Speaker 5: The technology is incredible. Also, the efficiency with which we
Speaker 5: can install turbines is completely different. I mean, you know
Speaker 5: it used to be you know, when we started doing offshore,
Speaker 5: you were lucky. If you can install one turbine a
Speaker 5: week on a offic wind farm. You can do now
Speaker 5: easily one a day.
Speaker 3: And that's just.
Speaker 5: How the technologies improved, the installation technology, but also the
Speaker 5: tech in terms of how we integrate with the grid,
Speaker 5: the sensors, all that. That's again, that's the good news.
Speaker 5: I guess, you know, I don't want to put a
Speaker 5: downer on it. And the bad news is that a
Speaker 5: lot of companies don't make money and there is an
Speaker 5: issue there with the way the market's set up. The
Speaker 5: returns for many years have been have been really bad
Speaker 5: for wind energy manufacturers. More part of this relates to
Speaker 5: continually going to bigger and bigger turbines. Part of this
Speaker 5: is how do we just make everything massive in terms
Speaker 5: of manufacturing and standardize and just kind of push out
Speaker 5: what we've already built rather than continually being pushed to
Speaker 5: kind of go to bigger turbine.
Speaker 1: Bright the way, could I just say it's this nice
Speaker 1: to cover this sector as an analyst.
Speaker 4: I mean, the thing that I would reflect on now
Speaker 4: is that the market's in a totally different place than
Speaker 4: it was ten years ago, because ten years ago you
Speaker 4: had I've got to say, you have too many manufacturers,
Speaker 4: particularly on the onshore side, and you also had on
Speaker 4: the offshore side too many manufacturers. Now, looking from I'm
Speaker 4: talking from a western point of view, you've got two
Speaker 4: players left and then you've got this one or two
Speaker 4: Chinese players, and that's sort of an Oligopoli situation. You
Speaker 4: would assume in that type of environment that margins will improve,
Speaker 4: and also in the onshore space, I would say the
Speaker 4: exact same thing. Now. The caveat and all that is
Speaker 4: whether the Chinese are really going to internationalize and compete
Speaker 4: with the Vestas and the Semens of this world and
Speaker 4: whatever going forward, it might bring another sort of factor
Speaker 4: and force of change into this industry.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: This means it's all good for the customer at the
Speaker 4: end of the day, because it means competition is driving
Speaker 4: innovation and price reductions.
Speaker 5: Now, for sure, we've been incredibly successful in bringing down
Speaker 5: the price and we are competitive pretty much ever in
Speaker 5: the world. The factor which is causing doubt in the
Speaker 5: industry or kind or limiting the ability to scale up
Speaker 5: really is the way that off take work. You know,
Speaker 5: we moved from feeding tariff to auctioning quite a few
Speaker 5: years ago, and then since then there's been this race
Speaker 5: to the bottom in terms of prices, which we totally get.
Speaker 5: We want to provide value the consumer, we want to
Speaker 5: be competitive, but often some of those off take systems
Speaker 5: don't really allocate risk in a way which works for
Speaker 5: investing and manufacturing. And I'm talking about things like auctions
Speaker 5: that are kind of zero bids or negative bidding auctions,
Speaker 5: which are essentially mean you have to take risk on
Speaker 5: a kind of future power price. Some of those things
Speaker 5: are unhelpful, and then needs to do a better kind
Speaker 5: of risk allocation. This is the energy transition, and there
Speaker 5: needs to be pretty clear signals to move on decisively
Speaker 5: when we're in that kind of middle period, and I
Speaker 5: do think in many places in framework the incentives are
Speaker 5: not there to do that effectively.
Speaker 2: I agree with you, because if you look at the
Speaker 2: conditions that are given to new coal plants in Asia,
Speaker 2: they get PPAs which are like insane at prices which
Speaker 2: are like double because let's say it, because of corruption.
Speaker 2: The coal industry is a corrupt industry. And if we
Speaker 2: have the same condition as the coal industry, I mean,
Speaker 2: we would put three times more wind. So I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: I mean that's my second rant of the episode. But
Speaker 2: I guess this is wrong day. We are not treated
Speaker 2: properly by all those guys that they're going to come
Speaker 2: and smile at cop and yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And
Speaker 2: you know behind some of those people are nefarious. They
Speaker 2: are nefarious. They prefer their personal interest to the interests
Speaker 2: of the people. But okay, me saying, let's move to
Speaker 2: probably a bit more positive territory, which is the new
Speaker 2: report that you're going to put out in a few days,
Speaker 2: so kind of explain what it is.
Speaker 5: So the Global Wind Report is the report from a
Speaker 5: bottom up perspective, details all the projects in the world
Speaker 5: where the wind industry is growing, what we've installed, but
Speaker 5: also every year kind of has a theme around the
Speaker 5: challenge is where the new markets are. So that report's
Speaker 5: coming out soon. It's going to show from the data,
Speaker 5: pretty good year, but not as good a year as
Speaker 5: we expected. Probably around another record year, but again not
Speaker 5: going as fast as we'd like. And there's a few
Speaker 5: things to note. Maybe one is the US, where it's
Speaker 5: been a little bit disappointing compared to what we're expecting.
Speaker 5: But in generally it will show a pretty strong year
Speaker 5: and with some growth areas in new markets, but also
Speaker 5: will show a few places where they really getting their
Speaker 5: act together and speeding up. Germany being one to mention.
Speaker 5: It shows where government has really gone and reformed planning
Speaker 5: law for instance, really gone and put in the right
Speaker 5: measures and say we're serious about speeding up. It can
Speaker 5: be done. Yeah, that's what the report's about. Be a
Speaker 5: pretty good year for US.
Speaker 2: You talk about the US, so let's talk about the US.
Speaker 2: The politicization offshore win especially has been in my personal opinion, despicable.
Speaker 2: And if I look at the right offs, I mean
Speaker 2: that poor hosted how much did they had to write
Speaker 2: off like five billion on the various project and also
Speaker 2: ILIEV got a billion shelled billion and so on. So
Speaker 2: that industry, our industry honestly believed that there was a
Speaker 2: case and they started putting the supply chain and do
Speaker 2: the analysis and everything has been just torn down following
Speaker 2: a no full campaign. Really, those people who are beyind
Speaker 2: should not be proud. I mean, like, what a.
Speaker 3: Way is dying? Yeah, ten years before they shot, they'll
Speaker 3: byar rise.
Speaker 2: I mean this is absolutely ridiculous. Yeah, that's my third round. Sorry,
Speaker 2: I thought the last round.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna give an answer to that round because I
Speaker 4: have a completely different view. Okay, I've used very simple
Speaker 4: United States. They're blessed with incredible natural resources, incredible onshore
Speaker 4: resources in terms of wind, incredible resources in terms of
Speaker 4: solar and also gas. So why the hell should they
Speaker 4: pay you know, treble digit prices per mega water for
Speaker 4: offshore wind when they can do it unshore and through
Speaker 4: all the other sources for cheaper. So for me, I
Speaker 4: would actually go and say, stupid Europeans for going over
Speaker 4: there and banking on the American government going and putting.
Speaker 1: Massive subsidies in for off show win when they don't
Speaker 1: need it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hear you, misters a week. You'll be reinvited
Speaker 2: next year. But let me tell you. Try to take
Speaker 2: a cable from Kansas or Clubat to New England, you know,
Speaker 2: and cross twelve states and I don't know how many
Speaker 2: counties and so on. So, yes, there is a resource,
Speaker 2: fantastic resource in the center of the US, but we
Speaker 2: were talking about the northeast where they don't have the gas.
Speaker 2: So in fact, the gas they paid as much as
Speaker 2: in Europe because there's no pipeline, there's no wires. There
Speaker 2: are big load centers between Boston and New York. So
Speaker 2: it made a lot of sense if you consider the
Speaker 2: global price to the system, not just the three digits.
Speaker 3: Okay, it's what.
Speaker 2: I'm fine to have a win at a twenty dollars
Speaker 2: o MAGA what hour in Oklahoma. But if you need
Speaker 2: it in Boston, I'd rather put my offshore wind across Boston.
Speaker 4: And Ben, I'd like to hear your thoughts that it's
Speaker 4: a little bit like if I'm seeing what's going on
Speaker 4: in Germany with off show wind. You've had the CEO
Speaker 4: of r wa ade on the two biggest utilities basically
Speaker 4: go out say off show wind makes no sense whatsoever,
Speaker 4: they say from an economics point of view. Now they're
Speaker 4: not talking, by the way, necessarily about the turbine cost.
Speaker 4: They're talking about the grid course. So I would just
Speaker 4: say that where I'm trying to point out is Derek
Speaker 4: is concerned about the economics of offshore wind compared to
Speaker 4: other alters.
Speaker 3: There's two things.
Speaker 5: First of all, US on shore wind is extremely competitive, right,
Speaker 5: and it was very powerful in developing the wind's industry
Speaker 5: as a whole. In the arguments for winds. We've got
Speaker 5: to remember that when we started really winning the arguments
Speaker 5: was where when we could do win in Texas and
Speaker 5: those kind of places are just hugely competitive prices and
Speaker 5: those economics are really compelling, and utilities and customers prefer
Speaker 5: win for that reason because you can install it quickly
Speaker 5: and it's great economics. So that should continue and you know,
Speaker 5: and we're seeing a lot of projects continuing and repowering
Speaker 5: and those economics will not go away. And especially, I mean,
Speaker 5: given what you guys have said about nuclear and gas,
Speaker 5: that just is going to make sense to the US economy.
Speaker 5: When the Inflation Reluction Acts was announced, we were really
Speaker 5: expecting a real boom in onshore wind mainly but also
Speaker 5: in off us offshore wind industry to start developing. Unfortunately,
Speaker 5: the deployment of that wind in the US was slower
Speaker 5: than it should have been, and that's mainly because of permitting,
Speaker 5: but also because of complexity around releasing IRA credits, and
Speaker 5: so the boom I think that people were expecting has
Speaker 5: only half happened. And then, of course then you get
Speaker 5: a new government coming in that has had from what
Speaker 5: I can see, a kind of chilling effect on project development.
Speaker 5: So that's on one side, and then on offshore wind
Speaker 5: I kind of go with Laurent. The economics makes sense
Speaker 5: on the East Coast and some other places because of
Speaker 5: the way the US system works, and you know, you're
Speaker 5: looking at building an industry which can then deliver very
Speaker 5: very competitive prices with very large scale projects, right, and
Speaker 5: you know you've got to go through that early deployment phase.
Speaker 5: We went through that in the UK, we went through
Speaker 5: that in Europe, and we got to a place where
Speaker 5: off your wind could deliver very compelling prices for power.
Speaker 5: So the US was just starting that journey, and a
Speaker 5: lot of the supply chain development was predicated on getting
Speaker 5: IRA credits that proved to be more complex than people
Speaker 5: have expected. There's also issues around local supply chain difficult
Speaker 5: part of the IRA was it was also predicated again
Speaker 5: on basically doing things in the US and doing all
Speaker 5: the supply chain in the US, and that supply chain
Speaker 5: wasn't there, so that caused issues as well. And now
Speaker 5: of course, we have a suspension of permitting in federal
Speaker 5: lands for offshore, which is federal, So that essentially means
Speaker 5: that if you're not if you don't already have a
Speaker 5: license and you're not already building, it looks difficult. And
Speaker 5: that's politics, that's not the economics. So I think a
Speaker 5: lot of people were expecting the kind of ira ifuel
Speaker 5: boom to happen that hasn't really happened. I mean, for
Speaker 5: a market that's as important as the US for US,
Speaker 5: it matters. It's not the biggest market, not more than
Speaker 5: five percent of the global market, but I think it
Speaker 5: was one where a lot of people were expecting it
Speaker 5: to continue to grow strongly, especially right now.
Speaker 3: Ben.
Speaker 4: Maybe just as the last question, can we talk a
Speaker 4: little bit about this whole concept of wind reset.
Speaker 1: What do you mean by this?
Speaker 5: We kind of coined this term because we could see
Speaker 5: that the industry had grown steadily over many years. But
Speaker 5: I feel like we're a bit of a pivotal moment
Speaker 5: where we're obviously going to keep growing, but we need
Speaker 5: to grow at this kind of accelerated pace. And it's
Speaker 5: like we've come up against some structural issues around the
Speaker 5: world and they're kind of common issues in many many markets,
Speaker 5: and so we started talking with our members about in
Speaker 5: this kind of reset where we can get on a
Speaker 5: kind of accelerated path, where we can get on track
Speaker 5: with the climate and energy targets move towards more of
Speaker 5: a tripling trajectory rather than a doubling trajectory. So we
Speaker 5: did a lot of work around this with partners like
Speaker 5: Bloomberg manif and we've come up with these kind of
Speaker 5: areas where we want to look at and we're bringing
Speaker 5: the industry together around these and a number of forums.
Speaker 5: There's a number of work streams. You know, there's some
Speaker 5: really clear fixes that together with governments, we can come
Speaker 5: up with which can get us on an even faster track.
Speaker 2: Well, Ben from Brazil, it was a great pleasure to
Speaker 2: have you on the show. And I like to tell
Speaker 2: our listeners we the wind industry were the Jedi Knights
Speaker 2: of the energy transition and we'll defeat the evil Empire.
Speaker 3: Child quite could just laugh at that. Thanks for cop
Speaker 3: of that machine.
Speaker 5: Thanks guys being fun saying well job.
Speaker 2: I like those conversations a bit tough.
Speaker 3: Some runs.
Speaker 2: I love to do some runs with bull that around
Speaker 2: and you know my conclusion is sonar has to go
Speaker 2: with batteries and win as to go with skyboards. It's
Speaker 2: as simple as that.
Speaker 3: I like that.
Speaker 1: That's a very good way pulling it very good. You're
Speaker 1: absolutely right.
Speaker 4: I never thought of that that form, but it makes
Speaker 4: sense because what you want to do is you want
Speaker 4: to move WIN from areas where there's lots of wind
Speaker 4: to where there's no wind, where there's no correlation, and
Speaker 4: that requires just with some it's much easier because what
Speaker 4: you do is you just put in the battery and
Speaker 4: use it when the song goes down.
Speaker 1: It's pretty simple. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 3: Pretty good. Good conclusion. The good conclusion.
Speaker 2: Look, the second conclusion, and this is something I also
Speaker 2: said directly to the Solar Association, is guys, there's so
Speaker 2: much solar now. There are really countries where it's almost
Speaker 2: uncontrollable with capture price, and so that please don't push
Speaker 2: governments for solar auctions. If you really want auctions, you
Speaker 2: pair solar and batteries. But you know, solar unconstrained or uncontrolled,
Speaker 2: is detrimental to the stability of the system. So what
Speaker 2: was good fifteen years ago is not relevant anymore. Plus
Speaker 2: it's gonna spare some taxpayers money.
Speaker 3: I like it.
Speaker 2: We need firm green power firm. Absolutely absolutely. We thank
Speaker 2: Ben for on the show. We are a big supporter
Speaker 2: of the winning energy.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Ben, it's great having you on.
Speaker 1: It took us a long time to get you on,
Speaker 1: but who's worth it.
Speaker 2: And jeorb I'll talk to you next week, loocome.
Speaker 3: Forward to it.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Redefining Energy.
Speaker 4: Don't forget to read the show and subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify,
Speaker 4: or the platform of your choice.