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<v Speaker 1>Lucky Land casino asking people what's the weirdest place you've

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<v Speaker 4>and start getting lucky.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, you are now listening to True Murder, the most

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<v Speaker 3>shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that

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<v Speaker 3>have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK.

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<v Speaker 3>Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking

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<v Speaker 3>and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with

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<v Speaker 3>your host, journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening.

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<v Speaker 5>Chris Thomas is not yet thirty years old when he

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<v Speaker 5>finds himself managing the immense pressure, eccentric personalities, and extenuating

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<v Speaker 5>circumstances of an international story where one small misstep could

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<v Speaker 5>adversely impact the search for a missing teenager and a

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<v Speaker 5>reputation of her family. Now twenty years later, Thomas takes

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<v Speaker 5>readers behind the scenes, providing new details, perspectives, and commentary

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<v Speaker 5>on finding Elizabeth Smart. In the process of reflecting on

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<v Speaker 5>Elizabeth's search and rescue, Thomas discovers how growing up in

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<v Speaker 5>the culture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter

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<v Speaker 5>day Saints commonly known as Mormon, helped push him to

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<v Speaker 5>develop the exact kind of intuition needed to manage Elizabeth's

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<v Speaker 5>kidnapping and rescue and do so while the world watched.

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<v Speaker 5>Unexpected juxtaposes crucial events from the Smart case with Thomas's

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<v Speaker 5>experience growing up in the latter day Saint culture, including

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<v Speaker 5>coming to understand the secret of a broken war hero

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<v Speaker 5>before it was too late. The book that we're featuring

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<v Speaker 5>this evening is Unexpected, the backstory of finding Elizabeth Smart

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<v Speaker 5>and growing up in the culture of an American religion,

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<v Speaker 5>with my special guest, author, speaker, and communications profession you know,

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<v Speaker 5>Chris Thomas. Welcome to the program, and thank you so

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<v Speaker 5>much for this interview. Chris Thomas, Thanks Dan, it's a

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<v Speaker 5>pleasure being on. Thank you so much, and congratulations on

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<v Speaker 5>this extraordinary book.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's been quite the journey and it's always you know,

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<v Speaker 2>for me, this was a first and seeing it come

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<v Speaker 2>to life has been a real thrill.

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<v Speaker 5>Let's talk about this extraordinary book project. With this book,

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<v Speaker 5>you have the forward, written by Elizabeth Smart herself. It's

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<v Speaker 5>somewhat brief, but she writes that when she was abducted

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<v Speaker 5>in two thousand and two, she didn't believe she'd live

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<v Speaker 5>another year, let alone twenty, and she spent countless hours

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<v Speaker 5>and imagining what it would be like to be rescued

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<v Speaker 5>and how it would happen, and what it would be

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<v Speaker 5>like to reunite with her family when it finally did happen,

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<v Speaker 5>a whirlwind of names, places, and so many feelings regarding

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<v Speaker 5>this unknown Only a few people stood out in her

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<v Speaker 5>memory from shortly after, and one of those people was

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<v Speaker 5>you tell us about where you were, what position you

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<v Speaker 5>were in, what was your background, and how you came

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<v Speaker 5>to be involved with the Elizabeth Smart Search and rescue.

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<v Speaker 2>So Elizabeth's cousins started an internship with my public relations

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<v Speaker 2>firm a couple of weeks before the abduction, and so

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<v Speaker 2>when Elizabeth was abducted, we volunteered to help. Initially, they

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<v Speaker 2>said we've got it. Elizabeth's uncle is a photo journalist,

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<v Speaker 2>so he had some media savvy. But as the media

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<v Speaker 2>contingent swelled, they welcomed our health and we got involved,

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<v Speaker 2>thinking it would be a few days, they'd find her,

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<v Speaker 2>we'd celebrate and go back to our day jobs. And

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<v Speaker 2>my partners ended up going back to the agency and

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<v Speaker 2>I stayed with the Smart family for the next nine

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<v Speaker 2>and a half months. So in long History, and I

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<v Speaker 2>was managing the media initially, was handling all the communications

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<v Speaker 2>efforts with a team and then over time grew to

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<v Speaker 2>be a close confidant of the family and was involved

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<v Speaker 2>in so much more.

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<v Speaker 5>You take us right, just again briefly to the first

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<v Speaker 5>time you lay eyes on Elizabeth Smart and the circumstances

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<v Speaker 5>in which you end up being at the Smart home.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, So, that day of her rescue, I actually had

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<v Speaker 2>seen Elizabeth at the police station. There had been some

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<v Speaker 2>issues with victims rights. John Walsh, the post of America's

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<v Speaker 2>Most Wanted had reached me. We'd worked very close and

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<v Speaker 2>I took his call and he had asked me to

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<v Speaker 2>pass on some information about how Elizabeth should be treated,

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<v Speaker 2>and they were doing the exact opposite. And when ed

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<v Speaker 2>Smart learned that, you know, they were violating her victims rights,

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<v Speaker 2>he became very upset, to the point where he had

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<v Speaker 2>to be restrained and I was called down to the

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<v Speaker 2>police station. So the first time I saw Elizabeth was

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<v Speaker 2>when I got out of the elevator and she was

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<v Speaker 2>coming out of an interrogation room. I didn't see anything

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<v Speaker 2>to her at that point. I felt it just wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>appropriate to talk to somebody who had been in captivity

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<v Speaker 2>just a few hours earlier. Later that night, when I

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<v Speaker 2>went up to the house to touch base and planned

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<v Speaker 2>for media for the following day. As I approached the doorstep,

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<v Speaker 2>Elizabeth and her siblings were in the background and her

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<v Speaker 2>parents were at the door talking with some neighbors. And

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<v Speaker 2>as I got out there, Elizabeth gave me this strange look,

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<v Speaker 2>like who is this? She obviously didn't recognize me from

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<v Speaker 2>the police station. And fortunately Ed caught that glimpse and

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<v Speaker 2>he said, Elizabeth, you don't know who this is. He said,

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<v Speaker 2>this is Chris. I consider him like a brother. You

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<v Speaker 2>should too, And I just wept. It was one of

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<v Speaker 2>the most remarkable experiences of my life, and for that reason,

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<v Speaker 2>I start the book with that experience and then go

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<v Speaker 2>back through the story, coming back to that day toward

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<v Speaker 2>the end.

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<v Speaker 5>Now tell us about the conversations you have, the job

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<v Speaker 5>that you have at this public relations company that's been

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<v Speaker 5>recently formed not too long before this, but also tell

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<v Speaker 5>us about who Tom Smart is and some of the

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<v Speaker 5>concerns from the family regarding Tom Smart.

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<v Speaker 2>So Tom Smart is elizabeth uncle who's the photo journalist,

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<v Speaker 2>and in fact his daughter was Sierra was the one

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<v Speaker 2>who started the internship with my firm. And Tom has

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<v Speaker 2>an interesting story. He is one of the most passionate,

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<v Speaker 2>iconoclastic people I know. And after Elizabeth was abducted, Tom

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<v Speaker 2>didn't sleep for more than one hundred and fifty hours,

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<v Speaker 2>and the longer he didn't sleep, the more his faculties

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<v Speaker 2>were compromised. And as he was interfacing with the media,

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<v Speaker 2>he started to say things that were pretty erratic, and

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<v Speaker 2>we had to try to pull him away from the media.

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<v Speaker 2>But Tom was this force throughout the book where he

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<v Speaker 2>was doing everything he could to find Elizabeth, and many

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<v Speaker 2>of the things he did were instrumental in her rescue,

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<v Speaker 2>and in other places he created some challenges as well.

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<v Speaker 2>And Tom and I have an interesting interplay as trying

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<v Speaker 2>to respond to the media and respond to his lack

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<v Speaker 2>of sleep.

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<v Speaker 5>Tell us about this board and the Smart family and

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<v Speaker 5>the actually the the Church of Latter day Saints and

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<v Speaker 5>all of the people involved in organizing and strategizing the

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<v Speaker 5>very first steps towards the search and rescue of Elizabeth Smart.

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<v Speaker 2>And one thing that was remarkable about the search for

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<v Speaker 2>Elizabeth Smart is just the level of organization and detail

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<v Speaker 2>and the resources that were available. Now, the Smarts were

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<v Speaker 2>portrayed to be very affluent, and they weren't necessarily really wealthy,

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<v Speaker 2>they definitely were gutter off than most people. At the

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<v Speaker 2>same time, they were very very well connected. So Elizabeth's

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<v Speaker 2>grandfather had been head of the National Cancer Institute. Was

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<v Speaker 2>this incredible man who actually kind of led the efforts

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<v Speaker 2>at seventy six years old, and he had done amazing

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<v Speaker 2>service around the country. So people came out of the

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<v Speaker 2>woodwork to help him. In addition to that, the culture

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<v Speaker 2>of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints

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<v Speaker 2>is one of service, and you know, we're taught from

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<v Speaker 2>a very young age to serve others, and there's a need,

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<v Speaker 2>you rise to the occasion. And that first week Elizabeth

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<v Speaker 2>was missing, more than ten thousand people came out to

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<v Speaker 2>search for her. And to provide some context, the next

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<v Speaker 2>closest search for a missing child in recent history was

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<v Speaker 2>four thousand people over several weeks. So the church played

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<v Speaker 2>a significant role in organizing that. Now these weren't all

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<v Speaker 2>church members. This was very much a community effort, but

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<v Speaker 2>was organized at the church and very much by Elizabeths congregation.

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<v Speaker 2>And I get into the culture of the church a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit in the book. It's not necessarily a religious book,

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<v Speaker 2>but to understand that effort and to understand a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of what went into rescue Elizabeth. It's important to understand

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<v Speaker 2>that culture. You asked about the board. So elizabeth aunts

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<v Speaker 2>and uncles were all pretty esteemed people, physician, a lawyer,

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<v Speaker 2>and there were others in kind of their inner circle,

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<v Speaker 2>and a tech entrepreneur, the former mayor of Salt Lake,

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<v Speaker 2>and they formed this group that more or less was

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<v Speaker 2>a board. I couldn't think of a better word than

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<v Speaker 2>a board to use for them. I don't know that

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<v Speaker 2>it was formal, but they met together twice a day

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<v Speaker 2>to work on the investigation and to figure out how

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<v Speaker 2>best to assist law enforcement, to assist the search effort,

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<v Speaker 2>and to take care of the family. And very early

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<v Speaker 2>on I was introduced and made a member of that group,

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<v Speaker 2>which was a little overwhelming in that I was twenty

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<v Speaker 2>nine years old and had a bachelor's degree and nearly

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<v Speaker 2>everyone in there was ten at least ten years older

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<v Speaker 2>than me and had many graduate degrees. But I learned

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<v Speaker 2>so much from them. It was tremendous experience.

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<v Speaker 5>And we talk about this Elizabeth Smart Search center that's

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<v Speaker 5>set up, But also what did the family really need

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<v Speaker 5>from you in your mind, and what did you and

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<v Speaker 5>your team bring to them in terms of this, but

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<v Speaker 5>also how did you arise as a for better term,

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<v Speaker 5>a leader or a spokesperson for this group.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure there was intense media attention and la and that

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<v Speaker 2>really is credit to Tom Smart, who made Elizabeth a

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<v Speaker 2>household name overnight. There's a lot of attention and he

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<v Speaker 2>really fed that and worked a lot of his media

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<v Speaker 2>contacts around the country. Once that attention was there, it

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<v Speaker 2>was figuring out how best to work with the media.

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<v Speaker 2>The media is a two edged sword and one way

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<v Speaker 2>they can be your best friend, can really help to

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<v Speaker 2>get the word out, and on the other they can

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<v Speaker 2>cut you personally pretty deep. And we had a very

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<v Speaker 2>personal discussion with the Smarts about the media early on

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<v Speaker 2>and said, you need to understand what you're getting into

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<v Speaker 2>because this is not going to be rosy. They are

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<v Speaker 2>going to take shots at you, They're going to dig

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<v Speaker 2>into your background. Are you willing to do this and

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<v Speaker 2>to what degree? And they said, we want to do

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<v Speaker 2>anything it takes to find Elizabeth. We don't care what

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<v Speaker 2>they do or say. We want to go full bore.

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<v Speaker 2>So at that point my team and I were really

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<v Speaker 2>working to be as organized as possible and how we

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<v Speaker 2>worked with the media. We were very fortunate that the

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<v Speaker 2>extended Smart family was large and they were articulate and

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<v Speaker 2>willing to do interviews. It was at that point that

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<v Speaker 2>we were working to make sure that they were well coordinated,

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<v Speaker 2>that they were consistent in how they were answering questions,

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<v Speaker 2>and that we were providing the media with you know,

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<v Speaker 2>as much content and with good commentary that would make

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<v Speaker 2>for good stories. So really trying to manage that initially,

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<v Speaker 2>and then as things got more pointed and more negative,

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<v Speaker 2>it was managing those issues and crises within the abduction

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<v Speaker 2>and the search.

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<v Speaker 5>What was your relationship with Tom Smart and how did

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<v Speaker 5>you manage that relationship or attempt to.

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<v Speaker 2>So Tom was really the only person that I had

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<v Speaker 2>known prior with him being a photo journalist. I had

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<v Speaker 2>worked with him on a number of stories. He also

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<v Speaker 2>one of my business partners. He was like an uncle

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<v Speaker 2>to him. So I knew Tom pretty well. And initially,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Tom and I felt Tom and I and

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<v Speaker 2>our team we were just part of the team, and

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<v Speaker 2>he was he was kind of leading that. But as

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<v Speaker 2>he had to be pulled off because of his lack

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<v Speaker 2>of sleep, changed his role a little bit and we

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<v Speaker 2>stepped up and Tom was Tom's kind of a cowboy.

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<v Speaker 2>He is a cowboy, really loves horses, and very much

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<v Speaker 2>has this renegade approach to things, and so there was

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<v Speaker 2>this amazing enthusiasm and passion and spirit with Tom. Sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>it was just working with him to make sure that

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<v Speaker 2>we were being productive with that. And then there were

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<v Speaker 2>challenges throughout throughout the situation where at times things got

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<v Speaker 2>a little off the rails and we had to work

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<v Speaker 2>to bring those back.

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<v Speaker 5>This book, not to take it off on a tangent,

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<v Speaker 5>but part of this story includes you growing up in

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<v Speaker 5>the Church of Latter day Saints and how that culture

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<v Speaker 5>shaped you with the experiences that you did have not

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<v Speaker 5>only with the church culture, but also this interesting and

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<v Speaker 5>fascinating and important figure in this book named Baker. Just

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<v Speaker 5>tell us briefly who this person is before we get

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<v Speaker 5>back to handling this case and Tom Smart and Bill

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<v Speaker 5>O'Reilly and Fox.

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<v Speaker 2>News absolutely so. Baker was one of the most unlikely

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<v Speaker 2>teachers in my life. He was an alcoholic who lived

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<v Speaker 2>next door to me. We had a very acrimonious relationship.

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<v Speaker 2>He was verbally abusive. At one point we got in

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<v Speaker 2>a fight. He threatened to shoot me. Several times. And

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<v Speaker 2>after thirteen years, as I was getting ready to leave

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<v Speaker 2>on a mission for my church on a whim, I

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<v Speaker 2>knocked on his door to say goodbye and spent several

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<v Speaker 2>hours and learned his real story. And this had a

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<v Speaker 2>profound impact on me that carried over to the smart Case.

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<v Speaker 2>I learned from him not to judge people. I still

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<v Speaker 2>struggle with it, but at least to try to keep

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<v Speaker 2>an open mind as it relates to what's on the surface,

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<v Speaker 2>because it's often not what's real. And also to get

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<v Speaker 2>fantastic skin. I mean, he was about as harsh of

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<v Speaker 2>an individual as you could expect. So there were several

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<v Speaker 2>lessons there, several lessons growing up in the latter day

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<v Speaker 2>Saint culture that really prepared me for that experience with

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<v Speaker 2>the smart Case. And so I go back to that.

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<v Speaker 2>It's kind of a Wonder Years type of rated memoir

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<v Speaker 2>where there's part of my childhood and then there's the

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<v Speaker 2>smart Case.

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<v Speaker 5>Specifically, let's get to you're trying to handle the media.

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<v Speaker 5>You're trying to stress that you need to have a

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<v Speaker 5>consistent messaging everyone extended family included that may be interviewed,

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<v Speaker 5>and that is you are coordinating day and night from beginning,

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<v Speaker 5>as you write in the book, from very beginning in

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<v Speaker 5>the morning, coordinating interviews, facilitating interviews, facilitating print interviews. But

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<v Speaker 5>tell us about Tom Smart and his own mission and

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<v Speaker 5>what he does, and how Bill O'Reilly and Fox News

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<v Speaker 5>comes into this story.

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<v Speaker 2>So Tom is finally Elizabeth's grandfather. Charles Smart, who's the patriarchy,

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<v Speaker 2>more or less, tells Tom, you're going home, You're getting sleep.

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<v Speaker 2>He sets up a rule that anyone who's going before

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<v Speaker 2>the media must have had at least four hours of

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<v Speaker 2>sleep the night before, and so he sends Tom off,

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<v Speaker 2>and that night, unbeknownst to us, Tom shows up on

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<v Speaker 2>Larry King Live. He had somebody drive him across town

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<v Speaker 2>to a studio we've been doing all the interviews by

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<v Speaker 2>satellite at the church house, and he's on with the

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<v Speaker 2>neighborhood milkman who had seen this man, Brett Mike Ledmans,

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<v Speaker 2>who was one of the initial suspects in the case.

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<v Speaker 2>And during the interview, Tom again, who is severely compromised

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<v Speaker 2>from a lack of sleep, determines in his mind that

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<v Speaker 2>the milkman is the actual abductor, and he tries to

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<v Speaker 2>get him to confess to the crime. Live on Larry

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<v Speaker 2>King Live, and then Tom starts saying erratic things, trying

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<v Speaker 2>to get him to confess, like the abductor's not a

305
00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:29.279
<v Speaker 2>bad person, that we think he's okay, And so that

306
00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:32.120
<v Speaker 2>was kind of the beginning of it. And after that interview,

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00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:35.240
<v Speaker 2>Tom was sent, I think, to a remote cabin with

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<v Speaker 2>no self service to get some sleep. The next day,

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00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:41.159
<v Speaker 2>though he hadn't told us that he had lined up

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<v Speaker 2>an interview with the Bill O'Reilly show and that there

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00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:47.080
<v Speaker 2>was a backstory to it that we weren't familiar with,

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00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:49.039
<v Speaker 2>and that was that Tom had worked with a man

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<v Speaker 2>named Mark Klass, whose daughter Polyclaus was unfortunately abducted and murdered,

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00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:57.399
<v Speaker 2>and he had come to town under the auspices of

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00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:00.840
<v Speaker 2>a father of a missing child, trying to provide his

316
00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:05.200
<v Speaker 2>help and advice to the Smart family and didn't disclose

317
00:17:05.240 --> 00:17:08.480
<v Speaker 2>initially that he was a paid Fox News consultant. And

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00:17:09.160 --> 00:17:11.640
<v Speaker 2>Tom set up a meeting with Ed and Lois Smart,

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00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:14.839
<v Speaker 2>Elizabeth's parents, and at the end Fox News came in

320
00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:18.400
<v Speaker 2>for a little exclusive part of the meeting, and then

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00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:20.880
<v Speaker 2>Tom called Mark out and said, wait a second, you

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00:17:20.920 --> 00:17:23.759
<v Speaker 2>know who are you working for? And Mark confessed that

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00:17:23.799 --> 00:17:25.960
<v Speaker 2>he was working for Fox News, and Tom told him

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<v Speaker 2>to stay away from the family, and so he then

325
00:17:28.599 --> 00:17:31.359
<v Speaker 2>went to Bill O'Reilly and they made this whole fuss

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<v Speaker 2>out of the fact that Tom was a suspicious individual

327
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<v Speaker 2>and that he was trying to impede the investigation, that

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00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:40.680
<v Speaker 2>Mark Klass and Bill O'Reilly wanted to bring in this

329
00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:44.839
<v Speaker 2>famed forensic artist Jeanie Boylan, and that Tom had mixed it.

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<v Speaker 2>The only problem was Tom didn't show up to the

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<v Speaker 2>interview the next day. He was going to take these

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00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:51.880
<v Speaker 2>guys head on, and the producer at the very last

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<v Speaker 2>minute was able to convince Tom's daughters, my intern Sierra

334
00:17:57.319 --> 00:17:59.920
<v Speaker 2>who was twenty one, and her younger sister who was eighteen,

335
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:03.240
<v Speaker 2>to come on the show in Tom's stead and completely

336
00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:06.960
<v Speaker 2>ambush them over the situation which they weren't aware of.

337
00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:10.680
<v Speaker 2>And this this was, I mean deplorable to begin with,

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00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:14.160
<v Speaker 2>and secondly, really caused a fury with Tom when he

339
00:18:14.279 --> 00:18:18.519
<v Speaker 2>finally came out of his exile and was arrested.

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<v Speaker 5>What did the police have to say and what's the

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00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:21.000
<v Speaker 5>media response?

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00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:24.200
<v Speaker 2>So a couple of things happened during that time. Around

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<v Speaker 2>that time, the Salt Lake Tribune publishes a story that

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<v Speaker 2>citing unnamed sources that a member of the extended Smart

345
00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:37.000
<v Speaker 2>family might be involved in Elizabeths abduction, and of course,

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<v Speaker 2>reading between the lines, it's obvious they're talking about Tom Smart,

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00:18:41.160 --> 00:18:43.279
<v Speaker 2>and it doesn't add up. I mean, at least from

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00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:46.160
<v Speaker 2>a public perspective. Here he is on Larry King Live

349
00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:49.640
<v Speaker 2>saying erratic things. Then he disappears, and then you know,

350
00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:52.200
<v Speaker 2>he's called out on the O'Reilly Show, and you know,

351
00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:56.240
<v Speaker 2>now this is happening. So Tom looks very suspicious under

352
00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:59.839
<v Speaker 2>the circumstances, and you know there's something that it takes

353
00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:02.759
<v Speaker 2>some time before the media kind of lays off of

354
00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:06.160
<v Speaker 2>Tom and the public people aren't convinced that the family

355
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<v Speaker 2>wasn't involved in some way until March twelfth, when Elizabeth

356
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<v Speaker 2>is rescued.

357
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<v Speaker 5>Now, meanwhile, the police have seemed to have their own

358
00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:18.440
<v Speaker 5>agenda and are not working or working with the family

359
00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:22.440
<v Speaker 5>necessarily and talking about a different suspect. The person named

360
00:19:22.599 --> 00:19:23.880
<v Speaker 5>Ricci tell us about this.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So Richard REESI was a handyman who had worked

362
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<v Speaker 2>at the Smart's home for a period of several months.

363
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<v Speaker 2>He had been fired I think six or eight months

364
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<v Speaker 2>before Elizabeth went missing, and there was a lot of

365
00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:41.160
<v Speaker 2>circumstantial evidence that pointed to him. It came out once

366
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<v Speaker 2>he was arrested, that he had stolen items from the

367
00:19:43.799 --> 00:19:48.160
<v Speaker 2>smart home, he had stolen items from another neighbor's home nearby,

368
00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:51.319
<v Speaker 2>and had gone in the house during the middle of

369
00:19:51.400 --> 00:19:54.359
<v Speaker 2>the night, had awakened a guest and had taken things

370
00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:59.039
<v Speaker 2>from the house. So he looked like somebody that had

371
00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:01.640
<v Speaker 2>the ability and and knew the house and all these

372
00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:03.599
<v Speaker 2>other details that could have come in in the middle

373
00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:06.559
<v Speaker 2>of the night with a knife and taken Elizabeth. So

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00:20:06.799 --> 00:20:10.119
<v Speaker 2>he was arrested. There were a number of other elements

375
00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:12.440
<v Speaker 2>that that pointed to him being the man, and the

376
00:20:12.480 --> 00:20:16.880
<v Speaker 2>police were absolutely convinced it was Richard Greasy behind closed doors.

377
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<v Speaker 2>They told the family they were ninety nine point nine

378
00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:23.920
<v Speaker 2>percent sure it was him, despite the fact that there

379
00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:29.039
<v Speaker 2>were some very peculiar developments and questions that didn't add

380
00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:30.880
<v Speaker 2>up with recy being the suspect.

381
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<v Speaker 5>So what is the family response to this differing of opinion,

382
00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:40.480
<v Speaker 5>and also what how does the public respond and the

383
00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:44.079
<v Speaker 5>media respond to the suspicions now that seemed to be

384
00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:46.079
<v Speaker 5>caused by Tom and his actions.

385
00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:50.240
<v Speaker 2>Well, there's a lot of focus on Tom and then

386
00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:53.839
<v Speaker 2>Richard Reesy tends to take some of that away when

387
00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:57.160
<v Speaker 2>the rec development breaks. That's after there had been a

388
00:20:57.319 --> 00:21:01.559
<v Speaker 2>heavy focus on Tom Smart. The Nation Inquirer, right before

389
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:06.039
<v Speaker 2>Reese is arrested as well, publishes a story about the

390
00:21:06.119 --> 00:21:09.079
<v Speaker 2>Smart brothers being involved in a gay sex ring that

391
00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:13.640
<v Speaker 2>potentially led to Elizabeth's abduction. And it was so ludicrous,

392
00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:16.640
<v Speaker 2>especially in such a conservative community like Salt Lake City.

393
00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:19.400
<v Speaker 2>That wasn't it wasn't at all believable here and even

394
00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:22.160
<v Speaker 2>outside of Salt Lake it was so far fetched. In

395
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:24.400
<v Speaker 2>a way, it did the family a favor because it

396
00:21:24.519 --> 00:21:27.039
<v Speaker 2>kind of took the emphasis off of them a little bit,

397
00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:30.559
<v Speaker 2>just because it's gone too far. And so when rees

398
00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:34.640
<v Speaker 2>came out, that became more of the focus. And then

399
00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:37.640
<v Speaker 2>and then something peculiar happened on July twenty fourth, which

400
00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:41.319
<v Speaker 2>is a statewide holiday, and there's fireworks. It's just like

401
00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:43.759
<v Speaker 2>the Fourth of July everywhere else. We celebrated it twice

402
00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:45.359
<v Speaker 2>here in the state of Utah. But on the twenty

403
00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:48.119
<v Speaker 2>fourth of July, there was a break in at Elizabeth,

404
00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:50.640
<v Speaker 2>or an attempted break in at Elizabeth's cousin's home. And

405
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:53.079
<v Speaker 2>her name was Write and she was one of Elizabeth's

406
00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:57.480
<v Speaker 2>best friends, and the irony was that it was almost

407
00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:01.599
<v Speaker 2>identical to how the break had occurred on the night

408
00:22:01.680 --> 00:22:04.960
<v Speaker 2>of Elizabeth's abduction. Yet at this point, Richard REESI was

409
00:22:05.000 --> 00:22:07.359
<v Speaker 2>in jail, so there was no way that he could

410
00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:10.079
<v Speaker 2>have done that. The police did not want the information

411
00:22:10.279 --> 00:22:13.079
<v Speaker 2>getting out, and it took about a month before it

412
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:16.720
<v Speaker 2>finally broke, And when it did break, they said that

413
00:22:16.759 --> 00:22:18.799
<v Speaker 2>they had investigated it and they believed it was a

414
00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:22.519
<v Speaker 2>teenage prank. And that was where around that time is

415
00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:25.759
<v Speaker 2>where the family and law enforcement started to really have

416
00:22:25.960 --> 00:22:29.559
<v Speaker 2>some differences of opinion as it related to Richard Reese

417
00:22:30.000 --> 00:22:30.960
<v Speaker 2>and the larger case.

418
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:34.680
<v Speaker 5>Now, you want to keep the board's focus on finding

419
00:22:35.079 --> 00:22:39.240
<v Speaker 5>Elizabeth and not suing Bill O'Reilly or any other thing

420
00:22:39.319 --> 00:22:42.519
<v Speaker 5>that anyone's proposing. You want to keep that focus. So

421
00:22:43.079 --> 00:22:46.880
<v Speaker 5>what is the strategy that you employ with the media

422
00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:50.000
<v Speaker 5>and what do you do to get the messaging that

423
00:22:50.160 --> 00:22:53.559
<v Speaker 5>you want out to that public and move this case.

424
00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:56.720
<v Speaker 2>Backing up to that point, when Tom comes back after

425
00:22:56.839 --> 00:22:59.839
<v Speaker 2>the O'Reilly interview, which I believe was on a Friday,

426
00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:02.000
<v Speaker 2>so it was like Monday morning, he brings an attorney

427
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:03.880
<v Speaker 2>with him into the board meeting and he says, you know,

428
00:23:04.039 --> 00:23:06.519
<v Speaker 2>we he starts handing out a press release and he said,

429
00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:08.519
<v Speaker 2>at the eleven o'clock briefing this morning, we're going to

430
00:23:08.599 --> 00:23:11.920
<v Speaker 2>announce that we are taking legal action against Mark Klass

431
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:15.799
<v Speaker 2>and Bill O'Reilly and Fox News. And there was just

432
00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:19.160
<v Speaker 2>such a bad idea from the onset, and he was

433
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.240
<v Speaker 2>starting to get some traction with a few people on

434
00:23:21.359 --> 00:23:23.200
<v Speaker 2>the board, and there was quite a bit of discussion,

435
00:23:23.680 --> 00:23:27.519
<v Speaker 2>and I finally stood up and wrote Elizabeth's name. There

436
00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:29.640
<v Speaker 2>was a blackboard in the room. Wrote Elizabeth's name on

437
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:32.079
<v Speaker 2>the blackboard and circled it and said, look, our focus

438
00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:35.440
<v Speaker 2>is on Elizabeth and anything that doesn't help in finding

439
00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:38.440
<v Speaker 2>her really doesn't matter, and we need to keep our

440
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:41.559
<v Speaker 2>focus there. And our message was largely along those lines

441
00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:44.200
<v Speaker 2>it had been. But moving forward, we asked ourselves that

442
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:47.039
<v Speaker 2>question quite often. You know, we went back to our mission.

443
00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:49.960
<v Speaker 2>Our mission was finding Elizabeth. This is helping, you know,

444
00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:52.799
<v Speaker 2>both tactically and from a message standpoint.

445
00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:56.640
<v Speaker 5>Can you tell us about Jane Clayson and her role

446
00:23:56.759 --> 00:23:57.400
<v Speaker 5>in this story?

447
00:23:57.680 --> 00:23:57.920
<v Speaker 2>Sure?

448
00:23:58.039 --> 00:23:58.079
<v Speaker 5>So.

449
00:23:58.279 --> 00:24:01.119
<v Speaker 2>Jane is a member of the Church of Jesus Christ

450
00:24:01.160 --> 00:24:04.039
<v Speaker 2>of Latter day Saints, had went to school at Brigham

451
00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:07.160
<v Speaker 2>Young University here in Utah and started her career with

452
00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:11.119
<v Speaker 2>KSL Television. Utah is a small, kind of a medium

453
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:15.480
<v Speaker 2>market from a demographic standpoint, but we tend to have

454
00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:19.200
<v Speaker 2>really strong broadcast journalists that come out of here and

455
00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:22.039
<v Speaker 2>go national. And then this has been for some time,

456
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:24.279
<v Speaker 2>and so this market is one that she usually two

457
00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:26.160
<v Speaker 2>or three rungs up. When you start out as a

458
00:24:26.200 --> 00:24:29.000
<v Speaker 2>broadcast journalist, you usually start in a really small market.

459
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:31.519
<v Speaker 2>You cut your teeth there, you go to the next

460
00:24:31.680 --> 00:24:34.079
<v Speaker 2>rung up, and so Jane kind of started, you know,

461
00:24:34.119 --> 00:24:36.799
<v Speaker 2>three rungs up on the ladder and quickly made a

462
00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:41.519
<v Speaker 2>name for herself and got a job with ABC Nightly News,

463
00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:44.759
<v Speaker 2>and then was discovered by CBS News and became Briant

464
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:49.000
<v Speaker 2>Gumble's co host on the Early Show, and that lasted

465
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:50.559
<v Speaker 2>for a couple of years, and then she was a

466
00:24:50.599 --> 00:24:53.599
<v Speaker 2>correspondent for CBS News and for forty eight Hours, and

467
00:24:53.720 --> 00:24:56.720
<v Speaker 2>she came out to cover the case for forty eight

468
00:24:56.759 --> 00:25:00.480
<v Speaker 2>Hours and it formed a close relationship with Lois, who

469
00:25:00.599 --> 00:25:04.440
<v Speaker 2>wasn't as involved with the day to day media. Convinced

470
00:25:04.519 --> 00:25:08.880
<v Speaker 2>Lois to do a primetime special for forty eight hours

471
00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:11.640
<v Speaker 2>that would run in February, and this was like at

472
00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:13.680
<v Speaker 2>the end of the summer, so like five months later,

473
00:25:13.759 --> 00:25:16.319
<v Speaker 2>they were there was going to be this special that

474
00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:20.799
<v Speaker 2>the family was going to collaborate with Dane Playson and

475
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:23.079
<v Speaker 2>CBS for several months.

476
00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:27.319
<v Speaker 5>On what happens in the recy case and him as

477
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:27.960
<v Speaker 5>a suspect.

478
00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:32.200
<v Speaker 2>Sure, so there's a lot of doubt and suspicion surrounding

479
00:25:32.279 --> 00:25:36.000
<v Speaker 2>Richard Reesi. And in September, which is about five months

480
00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:39.759
<v Speaker 2>after elizabeth subduction, he has a brain hemorrhage and he

481
00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:44.599
<v Speaker 2>dies in prison, completely unexpectedly, and this creates a real

482
00:25:44.759 --> 00:25:50.240
<v Speaker 2>challenge because the police are somewhat positioning his death as though,

483
00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:54.359
<v Speaker 2>you know, the mystery of Elizabeth's abduction may have died

484
00:25:54.519 --> 00:25:56.640
<v Speaker 2>with recy And so the family has to make a

485
00:25:56.759 --> 00:26:01.400
<v Speaker 2>very concerted effort to show condolence to the reci family

486
00:26:01.480 --> 00:26:04.160
<v Speaker 2>and not come off as being insincere. And in the

487
00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:08.480
<v Speaker 2>same vein pointing out that even if Reesi was involved,

488
00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:11.480
<v Speaker 2>he didn't act alone, and at that point offered some

489
00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:16.400
<v Speaker 2>rewards for information, one about, you know, if anyone could

490
00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:19.400
<v Speaker 2>explain what had happened at Elizabeth's cousin's house on July

491
00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:22.160
<v Speaker 2>twenty fourth, and a couple of other questions that they

492
00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:26.559
<v Speaker 2>offered rewards for around that time anonymously and didn't receive

493
00:26:26.880 --> 00:26:28.279
<v Speaker 2>any credible tips from it.

494
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:33.359
<v Speaker 5>You right that without a new development of finding Elizabeth

495
00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:36.799
<v Speaker 5>seems hopeless. Let's use this as an opportunity to stop

496
00:26:36.839 --> 00:26:40.799
<v Speaker 5>for a second for this message from our sponsor. Right now,

497
00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:43.839
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498
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499
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500
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501
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502
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503
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504
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505
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506
00:27:12.359 --> 00:27:15.680
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507
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:20.119
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508
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:23.359
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509
00:27:23.759 --> 00:27:27.680
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510
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:32.440
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511
00:27:32.599 --> 00:27:39.839
<v Speaker 5>murder again that's ZipRecruiter dot com slash mur der, ZipRecruiter

512
00:27:40.279 --> 00:27:44.519
<v Speaker 5>the Smartest way to Hire. Now, Chris, we were talking

513
00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:48.480
<v Speaker 5>about the it seemed that there needed to be some

514
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:52.720
<v Speaker 5>new development in this case. And you then take us

515
00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:56.960
<v Speaker 5>to the Mayflower Hotel and the Smart family travels to

516
00:27:57.079 --> 00:28:01.160
<v Speaker 5>New York City and to meet John Walsh and America's

517
00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:04.440
<v Speaker 5>Most Wanted the host. John Walsh tell us how this

518
00:28:04.640 --> 00:28:07.880
<v Speaker 5>happens and what happens as a result.

519
00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:10.359
<v Speaker 2>So there's a couple of things here that happened.

520
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:10.880
<v Speaker 4>So they do.

521
00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:14.359
<v Speaker 2>They go to New York, they do their first network interview,

522
00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:17.400
<v Speaker 2>and this is around the time of Reese's death. And

523
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:21.200
<v Speaker 2>then shortly thereafter, a couple of weeks later, Mary Catherine Smart,

524
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:23.559
<v Speaker 2>Elizabeth's sister, who was in the room the night that

525
00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:26.839
<v Speaker 2>she was abducted. She had feigned sleep. It was pretty dark,

526
00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:29.559
<v Speaker 2>she didn't get a good look at the individual, but

527
00:28:29.720 --> 00:28:33.240
<v Speaker 2>she recognized his voice and one night, you know, the

528
00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:36.200
<v Speaker 2>family had been told too throughout. Don't ask her questions.

529
00:28:36.279 --> 00:28:38.400
<v Speaker 2>If she wants to talk about it, talk about it,

530
00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:40.759
<v Speaker 2>Let her talk about it. But if you allow her

531
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:44.640
<v Speaker 2>to process it, at some point she may figure out

532
00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:46.200
<v Speaker 2>who it is. And this happened one night she was

533
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:48.640
<v Speaker 2>reading the Guinness Book of World Records and saw a

534
00:28:48.720 --> 00:28:51.480
<v Speaker 2>picture of the world's strongest woman, and it popped into

535
00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:54.359
<v Speaker 2>her head that that voice was this man named Emmanuel

536
00:28:54.440 --> 00:28:56.880
<v Speaker 2>who had worked in the yard one afternoon. He'd only

537
00:28:56.960 --> 00:28:59.160
<v Speaker 2>been there one day. And she went to her father

538
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:01.160
<v Speaker 2>and said, Dad, I know, I remember who did I

539
00:29:01.240 --> 00:29:03.240
<v Speaker 2>remember who was in the room? I know who took Elizabeth?

540
00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:06.559
<v Speaker 2>And they got pretty excited and called law enforcement. And

541
00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:11.720
<v Speaker 2>law enforcement was less interested in the development. They just

542
00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:14.279
<v Speaker 2>created tension. The fair amount of the book deals with

543
00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:17.920
<v Speaker 2>this tension between law enforcement and between Ed and Lois

544
00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:20.599
<v Speaker 2>Smart on what to do. Law enforcement does not want

545
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:24.200
<v Speaker 2>the information coming out, and Ed and Lois Smart are

546
00:29:24.720 --> 00:29:27.960
<v Speaker 2>at odds. They're extended families are at odds regarding what

547
00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:30.480
<v Speaker 2>to do that the extended Smart family feels like they

548
00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:34.000
<v Speaker 2>should defile law enforcement and come forward with the information,

549
00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:37.400
<v Speaker 2>and the other side believes that they should trust us

550
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:39.640
<v Speaker 2>authority and do what the police are saying. And this

551
00:29:39.799 --> 00:29:42.720
<v Speaker 2>goes on for several months before they finally make a

552
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:43.680
<v Speaker 2>decision on what to do.

553
00:29:44.119 --> 00:29:47.960
<v Speaker 5>What is the police justification for not going along with

554
00:29:48.200 --> 00:29:50.279
<v Speaker 5>a sketch? What is their rationale? For that.

555
00:29:50.519 --> 00:29:53.279
<v Speaker 2>You know, I couldn't really speak for the police department,

556
00:29:53.359 --> 00:29:57.039
<v Speaker 2>so what I would be saying is somewhat speculation. It

557
00:29:57.160 --> 00:29:59.480
<v Speaker 2>goes back to and in law enforcement there tends to

558
00:29:59.519 --> 00:30:01.160
<v Speaker 2>be a lot of tribalism, and I think in this

559
00:30:01.319 --> 00:30:04.559
<v Speaker 2>case there was a herd mentality where most of the

560
00:30:04.599 --> 00:30:07.200
<v Speaker 2>people in law enforcement felt that it was Richard REESI,

561
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:09.359
<v Speaker 2>that it was a slam dunk, that he had done it,

562
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:12.200
<v Speaker 2>and that they were wasting their time with anything else.

563
00:30:12.279 --> 00:30:15.880
<v Speaker 2>They also had been under incredible scrutiny from the media,

564
00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:19.640
<v Speaker 2>from the public, from the mayor's office, and I think

565
00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:24.240
<v Speaker 2>they wanted to avoid any additional items that could reignite that.

566
00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:30.759
<v Speaker 5>So what happens in terms of this continued police focus

567
00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:35.039
<v Speaker 5>on this reci and the family, as you say, increasingly

568
00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:37.920
<v Speaker 5>at odds with the police to do something with this

569
00:30:38.119 --> 00:30:41.640
<v Speaker 5>sketch that is has been produced. But the police are

570
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:45.960
<v Speaker 5>pretty lax in the production of that sketch to say

571
00:30:46.039 --> 00:30:46.400
<v Speaker 5>the least.

572
00:30:46.880 --> 00:30:49.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So there's a lot of back and forth between

573
00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:52.240
<v Speaker 2>the families. And finally Tom Smart is the one who

574
00:30:52.799 --> 00:30:56.000
<v Speaker 2>makes the recommendation that Ed and Lewis should talk to

575
00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:58.920
<v Speaker 2>John Walsh and agree ahead of time that whatever John

576
00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:01.559
<v Speaker 2>Walsh says to do that, they will follow it, and

577
00:31:01.640 --> 00:31:03.480
<v Speaker 2>they agreed to do that. And they had met John

578
00:31:03.559 --> 00:31:06.799
<v Speaker 2>earlier at the end of the summer and had done

579
00:31:06.880 --> 00:31:10.000
<v Speaker 2>his daytime talk show, and they had been invited back

580
00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:12.759
<v Speaker 2>in early December to do his year end show. He

581
00:31:12.839 --> 00:31:16.599
<v Speaker 2>brought back his best guests. And I reached out to John,

582
00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:18.640
<v Speaker 2>and I'd worked with him a fair amount, so we

583
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:20.960
<v Speaker 2>had a relationship, and I explained to him that the

584
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:23.880
<v Speaker 2>Smarts had that there was a development that they wanted

585
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:26.319
<v Speaker 2>to talk to him about and get his objective counsel,

586
00:31:26.400 --> 00:31:28.680
<v Speaker 2>that they needed him to know. I needed him to

587
00:31:28.759 --> 00:31:31.119
<v Speaker 2>remove his journalist's hat and to be you know, to

588
00:31:31.440 --> 00:31:34.880
<v Speaker 2>keep things completely confidential. And he agreed, and so we

589
00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:38.039
<v Speaker 2>went and did the show and afterwards talked to John

590
00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:40.799
<v Speaker 2>and John nearly jumped out of his seat when he

591
00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:44.480
<v Speaker 2>heard the development that Mary Catherine had remembered and said,

592
00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:46.839
<v Speaker 2>you guys need to come forward with this, that this

593
00:31:47.079 --> 00:31:49.839
<v Speaker 2>is one of the most important developments in the case.

594
00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:52.680
<v Speaker 2>And he de cided probably a dozen other cases that

595
00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:55.119
<v Speaker 2>had been solved where there had been mistakes by the

596
00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:58.720
<v Speaker 2>police department that America's most wanted had become involved in.

597
00:31:58.839 --> 00:32:01.319
<v Speaker 2>And we were always careful well, not to give new

598
00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:05.440
<v Speaker 2>developments exclusively to any one media organization. And I talked

599
00:32:05.480 --> 00:32:07.079
<v Speaker 2>to John about that and I said, we'll give you

600
00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:09.400
<v Speaker 2>some preferential treatment, but we want to do a press

601
00:32:09.480 --> 00:32:13.240
<v Speaker 2>conference in early January to announce this. You know, if

602
00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:15.440
<v Speaker 2>you want to put together a package before that, we

603
00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:17.640
<v Speaker 2>can work on something like that. And John said, let's

604
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:18.720
<v Speaker 2>talk after the first of.

605
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:22.839
<v Speaker 5>The year and what happens on Larry King Live again.

606
00:32:23.079 --> 00:32:27.720
<v Speaker 5>Larry King Live has devoted incredible amount of time and

607
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:32.240
<v Speaker 5>I'm resources, but focus on the Elizabeth Smart case. What

608
00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:36.079
<v Speaker 5>happens with John Walsh the information that you thought was confidential.

609
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:39.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So on the twenty third of December, and then

610
00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:42.240
<v Speaker 2>to back up a little bit, the Christmas holiday was

611
00:32:42.519 --> 00:32:46.200
<v Speaker 2>incredibly difficult for the Smart family. They could not fathom

612
00:32:46.400 --> 00:32:49.519
<v Speaker 2>going through Christmas without their daughter and it was a

613
00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:53.200
<v Speaker 2>very somber time for them. And I had largely said

614
00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:56.359
<v Speaker 2>let me, I'll handle you know, whatever's happening, Just take

615
00:32:56.440 --> 00:32:58.400
<v Speaker 2>care of your family, don't worry about it. I'll let

616
00:32:58.480 --> 00:33:00.480
<v Speaker 2>you know of something big rises. Well, on the twenty

617
00:33:00.519 --> 00:33:03.680
<v Speaker 2>third of December, I get a call from Tom Smart.

618
00:33:03.759 --> 00:33:06.720
<v Speaker 2>I wasn't watching, but John Walsh was on Larry King Live,

619
00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:09.640
<v Speaker 2>and he had just leaked everything about Mary Catherine's epiphany.

620
00:33:09.799 --> 00:33:12.680
<v Speaker 2>So the story came out on Larry King Live. Luckily,

621
00:33:12.799 --> 00:33:15.599
<v Speaker 2>because of the holidays, I didn't receive any calls until

622
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:17.839
<v Speaker 2>the next day, about ten o'clock the next morning, and

623
00:33:17.880 --> 00:33:20.559
<v Speaker 2>then the floodgates opened and I spent Christmas Eve on

624
00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:24.039
<v Speaker 2>my front lawn doing interviews. And the way we handled

625
00:33:24.079 --> 00:33:26.160
<v Speaker 2>that was we said that there was credibility to what

626
00:33:26.279 --> 00:33:28.720
<v Speaker 2>John was saying, and at the same time, the family

627
00:33:29.079 --> 00:33:31.440
<v Speaker 2>wasn't ready to make that announcement. They would do that

628
00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:35.640
<v Speaker 2>early in the new year. Law enforcement immediately discredited what

629
00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:37.599
<v Speaker 2>John was saying. They said he was doing it to

630
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:40.559
<v Speaker 2>promote his own TV show, that they had investigated this guy,

631
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:43.039
<v Speaker 2>that there was nothing to it, and that you know,

632
00:33:43.160 --> 00:33:44.440
<v Speaker 2>he was just blowing hot air.

633
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:47.839
<v Speaker 5>How does the other the rest of the media respond

634
00:33:48.119 --> 00:33:50.720
<v Speaker 5>to this? Even though it's on Larry King Live.

635
00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:53.240
<v Speaker 2>Locally, it gets a little national. Locally, it gets quite

636
00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:56.519
<v Speaker 2>a bit of attention. It does get coverage and they

637
00:33:56.599 --> 00:33:59.319
<v Speaker 2>give it's pretty balanced. It gets both sides. It gives

638
00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:02.519
<v Speaker 2>the side of what John saying, that it's my quote

639
00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:04.599
<v Speaker 2>saying that there's credibility to it, and then the police

640
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:06.079
<v Speaker 2>saying there's no credibility to it.

641
00:34:06.319 --> 00:34:09.000
<v Speaker 5>So you say, it's a bitter pill to swallow for

642
00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:13.440
<v Speaker 5>you with this betrayal by John Walsh. But still the

643
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:16.079
<v Speaker 5>fact remains that you want to have this information that

644
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:20.119
<v Speaker 5>Mary Catherine has brought forward in terms of the sketch

645
00:34:20.760 --> 00:34:23.760
<v Speaker 5>and description. So how do you get this to happen?

646
00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:26.599
<v Speaker 5>What happens in terms of your decision to what to

647
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:27.159
<v Speaker 5>do next.

648
00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:30.360
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, I was very disappointed that that came out

649
00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:33.800
<v Speaker 2>from John. You know, ed shared my frustration. At the

650
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:36.800
<v Speaker 2>same time, John had been such an ally to the family.

651
00:34:37.440 --> 00:34:38.960
<v Speaker 2>It was hard to be mad out of me such

652
00:34:38.960 --> 00:34:42.280
<v Speaker 2>an incredibly nice guy. In hindsight later on, there's members

653
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:45.239
<v Speaker 2>of the board, kind of the extended family who believe

654
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:48.639
<v Speaker 2>that John not leaked that information. It's possible that the

655
00:34:48.679 --> 00:34:51.039
<v Speaker 2>Smarts might not have come forward with it. There were

656
00:34:51.079 --> 00:34:54.559
<v Speaker 2>a number of things that occurred. Law enforcement as the

657
00:34:54.639 --> 00:34:58.519
<v Speaker 2>Smarts were getting closer to defile them continued to put

658
00:34:58.559 --> 00:35:01.159
<v Speaker 2>more pressure on. They pulled Ed and Lewis and me

659
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:04.280
<v Speaker 2>into a meeting one day and said, look, well we

660
00:35:04.360 --> 00:35:07.159
<v Speaker 2>want to reason with you. We found bullet casings in

661
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:11.280
<v Speaker 2>Richard Reese's cheap, and we're relatively confident that he took

662
00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:14.280
<v Speaker 2>Elizabeth out to the desert, he shot her. He's buried

663
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:17.920
<v Speaker 2>or somewhere. We may never find her. We're doing our best,

664
00:35:18.360 --> 00:35:20.639
<v Speaker 2>but we want to level with you and if you

665
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:24.320
<v Speaker 2>guys come forward with this information, it's gonna it's going

666
00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:26.559
<v Speaker 2>to cause all kinds of issues, and it potentially could

667
00:35:26.599 --> 00:35:29.320
<v Speaker 2>embarrass and Mary Catherine, and we want to protect her.

668
00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:32.079
<v Speaker 2>And so they were making this case and it kept

669
00:35:32.159 --> 00:35:36.360
<v Speaker 2>delaying things, and finally Ed Smart decided I'm coming out

670
00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:39.440
<v Speaker 2>with it. We're doing it, and on February fifth, we

671
00:35:39.559 --> 00:35:41.800
<v Speaker 2>called a press conference, and in the press conference, we

672
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:44.559
<v Speaker 2>offered a ten thousand dollars reward for anyone who could

673
00:35:44.599 --> 00:35:48.960
<v Speaker 2>exonerate Richard Reesi and then released a sketch of this man, Emmanuel,

674
00:35:49.000 --> 00:35:51.519
<v Speaker 2>who had worked on the house. For one day, local

675
00:35:51.599 --> 00:35:53.800
<v Speaker 2>media covered it ed and I jumped on a plane

676
00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:56.199
<v Speaker 2>and went to New York. I had lined up interviews

677
00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:59.280
<v Speaker 2>with the morning shows, and that next morning all of

678
00:35:59.559 --> 00:36:02.480
<v Speaker 2>the shows canceled and it was odd, and so I

679
00:36:02.599 --> 00:36:04.679
<v Speaker 2>called a source with one of the networks and asked

680
00:36:04.760 --> 00:36:07.199
<v Speaker 2>him what was going on, and he said the police

681
00:36:07.239 --> 00:36:10.159
<v Speaker 2>department had made it very clear to the media that

682
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:13.880
<v Speaker 2>they should be careful on this one, that I had

683
00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:16.480
<v Speaker 2>concocted the story to try to get Elizabeth back in

684
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:18.800
<v Speaker 2>the news, and that they had investigated this guy and

685
00:36:18.920 --> 00:36:21.400
<v Speaker 2>found nothing that led them to believe that he was

686
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:24.239
<v Speaker 2>any more prominent a suspect than anybody else. And so

687
00:36:24.360 --> 00:36:28.320
<v Speaker 2>the national media completely panned the story. Locally, the story

688
00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:30.599
<v Speaker 2>was about the reward, not the fact that there was,

689
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:32.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, the King Mary Catherine who remembered this guy

690
00:36:33.119 --> 00:36:36.000
<v Speaker 2>that was potentially involved in the abduction, and so it

691
00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:39.280
<v Speaker 2>was it was really ignored, and at that point, you John,

692
00:36:39.320 --> 00:36:41.159
<v Speaker 2>who had been the goat for a little while, came

693
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:43.119
<v Speaker 2>out as the hero. He was the only one who

694
00:36:43.239 --> 00:36:47.679
<v Speaker 2>really took the story seriously and did significant feature on

695
00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:52.880
<v Speaker 2>America's Most Wanted, which led to Brian David Mitchell's family

696
00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:55.519
<v Speaker 2>stepping forward and saying, this is his name, and he's

697
00:36:55.599 --> 00:36:57.599
<v Speaker 2>capable of this, and we need to find him. And

698
00:36:57.719 --> 00:37:00.000
<v Speaker 2>there were two other stories in the next two weeks

699
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:05.199
<v Speaker 2>on America's Most Wanted before Elizabeth was recognized by America's

700
00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:07.079
<v Speaker 2>Most Wanted viewers and was rescued.

701
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:11.119
<v Speaker 5>It's incredible you described a person that you were playing basketball.

702
00:37:11.199 --> 00:37:15.480
<v Speaker 5>One of your favorite hobbies growing up. And still imagine

703
00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:18.679
<v Speaker 5>you talk about Adjason Burnett, somebody who played high school

704
00:37:18.679 --> 00:37:23.039
<v Speaker 5>basketball with you, gave him acall he wasn't answering tell

705
00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:25.960
<v Speaker 5>us about this very dramatic scene that you read about.

706
00:37:26.119 --> 00:37:29.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So that day, on March twelfth, kind of a

707
00:37:29.119 --> 00:37:33.079
<v Speaker 2>difficult start to the day, Tom Smart had blasted law

708
00:37:33.199 --> 00:37:34.719
<v Speaker 2>enforcement to the Salt Lake Tribune.

709
00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:35.559
<v Speaker 1>And over the.

710
00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:39.199
<v Speaker 2>Prior nine and a half months, we've been so majored

711
00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:42.519
<v Speaker 2>and so disciplined in how we talked about law enforcement

712
00:37:43.239 --> 00:37:45.840
<v Speaker 2>to not be overtly critical of them. We recognized that

713
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:48.840
<v Speaker 2>they were still the families, one of the family's best

714
00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:53.519
<v Speaker 2>tools for finding Elizabeth, and also recognized that getting into

715
00:37:54.880 --> 00:37:58.079
<v Speaker 2>shouting match with law enforcement was only going to create

716
00:37:58.159 --> 00:38:00.360
<v Speaker 2>conflict in drama and it wasn't going to of any

717
00:38:01.159 --> 00:38:04.679
<v Speaker 2>good purpose. But Tom finally defiled that, and nine and

718
00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:06.800
<v Speaker 2>a half months of frustration came out in the Salt

719
00:38:06.880 --> 00:38:11.599
<v Speaker 2>Lake Tribune publishes a front page story about the family

720
00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:17.000
<v Speaker 2>finally criticizing law enforcement, which creates all kinds of national attention.

721
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:20.760
<v Speaker 2>The New York Times, USA Today, NBC News, everybody wants

722
00:38:20.800 --> 00:38:22.760
<v Speaker 2>to talk now, all of a sudden, despite the fact

723
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:24.760
<v Speaker 2>that a few weeks earlier they had no interest in

724
00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:28.599
<v Speaker 2>this development, and so we had planned a press briefing

725
00:38:28.719 --> 00:38:31.239
<v Speaker 2>for that afternoon and Tom Smart and that Smart and

726
00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:35.440
<v Speaker 2>I were getting together to determine how best to navigate

727
00:38:35.519 --> 00:38:39.119
<v Speaker 2>that situation. And a few minutes before the meeting, Ed

728
00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:41.239
<v Speaker 2>called me and told me that he had been summoned

729
00:38:41.320 --> 00:38:44.320
<v Speaker 2>to the Sandy City Police Department, Sandy being a suburb

730
00:38:44.440 --> 00:38:47.199
<v Speaker 2>ten miles to the south of Salt Lake. He was

731
00:38:47.239 --> 00:38:49.320
<v Speaker 2>told not to stop, not to talk to anyone, not

732
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:52.000
<v Speaker 2>even Lois. He felt like he needed to call me

733
00:38:52.079 --> 00:38:53.559
<v Speaker 2>because he was going to be late to the meeting,

734
00:38:53.639 --> 00:38:56.480
<v Speaker 2>he might even miss the meeting, and I told him to,

735
00:38:56.639 --> 00:38:58.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, let me know when you know something. But

736
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:00.639
<v Speaker 2>as you mentioned, my good friend Jay and Burnette, my

737
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:03.679
<v Speaker 2>basketball teammate, threw me the assist of a lifetime when

738
00:39:03.719 --> 00:39:07.360
<v Speaker 2>I called him and he finally picked up, and he

739
00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:10.119
<v Speaker 2>told me that the police department had brought in an

740
00:39:10.320 --> 00:39:14.360
<v Speaker 2>indigent teenager that they believed was Elizabeth Smart. And I

741
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:19.760
<v Speaker 2>paused and tried to keep my composure. I was crying

742
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:23.039
<v Speaker 2>and said to Jason, where did they find the body?

743
00:39:23.320 --> 00:39:25.280
<v Speaker 2>And he said, what body? She's in the room next

744
00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:28.079
<v Speaker 2>to me, and it was the most unbelievable news I

745
00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:29.960
<v Speaker 2>had ever heard. We know the end of that story,

746
00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:33.159
<v Speaker 2>but in that moment, it was surreal, and I was

747
00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:35.000
<v Speaker 2>able to get a hold of ed Smart and then

748
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:37.599
<v Speaker 2>we had a resolution plan, and Tom and I started

749
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:41.400
<v Speaker 2>calling down to the other members of the extended family

750
00:39:41.480 --> 00:39:45.159
<v Speaker 2>and the board and giving them instructions on what to do.

751
00:39:45.519 --> 00:39:47.800
<v Speaker 2>And it was about forty five minutes later that the

752
00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:50.639
<v Speaker 2>story finally hit the news. But it was the assist

753
00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:51.360
<v Speaker 2>of a lifetime.

754
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:54.440
<v Speaker 5>That's an understatement. Let's use as an opportunity to stop

755
00:39:54.480 --> 00:39:56.199
<v Speaker 5>for a second for these messages.

756
00:39:56.400 --> 00:39:59.559
<v Speaker 1>Lucky Land Casino asking people what's the weirdest place you've

757
00:39:59.599 --> 00:40:03.159
<v Speaker 1>gotten lucky? In line at the Delhi I guess ah,

758
00:40:03.320 --> 00:40:05.440
<v Speaker 1>in my dentist's office more than once.

759
00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:07.079
<v Speaker 2>Actually do I have to say?

760
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:07.519
<v Speaker 4>Yes?

761
00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:07.760
<v Speaker 5>You do?

762
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:10.480
<v Speaker 2>In the car before my kid's PTA meeting?

763
00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:14.119
<v Speaker 1>Really yes, excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?

764
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:15.400
<v Speaker 2>I never win?

765
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:16.880
<v Speaker 3>And tell well, there you have it.

766
00:40:16.960 --> 00:40:19.719
<v Speaker 1>You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landsloughts dot

767
00:40:19.840 --> 00:40:21.320
<v Speaker 1>com play for free right now?

768
00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:22.519
<v Speaker 2>Are you feeling lucky?

769
00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:22.679
<v Speaker 5>No?

770
00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:25.159
<v Speaker 1>We're just necessary fod Red my long eighteen plus terms conditions,

771
00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:26.159
<v Speaker 1>plus you on severy details.

772
00:40:26.840 --> 00:40:30.519
<v Speaker 6>You're dedicated to building a bright financial future. Grow your

773
00:40:30.559 --> 00:40:34.440
<v Speaker 6>investments with Millibank's High Yield Savings account. Earn a highly

774
00:40:34.519 --> 00:40:38.559
<v Speaker 6>competitive annual percentage yield with no fees or minimums. Getting

775
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:43.000
<v Speaker 6>started is simple to download the app, link your account

776
00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:46.800
<v Speaker 6>and start growing your money. Welcome to a new way

777
00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:50.599
<v Speaker 6>to save more for the things that matter most. Welcome

778
00:40:50.760 --> 00:40:55.039
<v Speaker 6>to Millibank, visit Milli dot bank or download the milliapp today.

779
00:40:57.400 --> 00:41:02.440
<v Speaker 5>Now you chronicle the credit moments. Again. We already mentioned

780
00:41:02.480 --> 00:41:04.960
<v Speaker 5>at the beginning of this interview when you first laid

781
00:41:05.000 --> 00:41:08.599
<v Speaker 5>eyes on her at that police station in the shabbily

782
00:41:08.760 --> 00:41:12.440
<v Speaker 5>dressed and much different after a few days of nutrition

783
00:41:12.679 --> 00:41:16.559
<v Speaker 5>and proper sleep and rest. But you also did see

784
00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:20.079
<v Speaker 5>her less than twelve hours later at the home and

785
00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:24.920
<v Speaker 5>then which began this extraordinary relationship that still exists today.

786
00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:28.920
<v Speaker 5>You've been in an employee of the Smart family. You

787
00:41:29.079 --> 00:41:32.639
<v Speaker 5>talk about the White House meeting in the rose Garden,

788
00:41:33.159 --> 00:41:36.840
<v Speaker 5>but let's talk about the national Amber Alert, one of

789
00:41:36.920 --> 00:41:40.199
<v Speaker 5>the main things that was always focus of the family

790
00:41:40.440 --> 00:41:41.559
<v Speaker 5>and also yourself.

791
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:44.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the Amber alert was a godsend and it really

792
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:48.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, a lot of people recognize Elizabeth and the

793
00:41:48.159 --> 00:41:52.159
<v Speaker 2>amazing work she does in taking something that's so tragic

794
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:55.519
<v Speaker 2>and using it as a catalyst to help other people

795
00:41:55.599 --> 00:41:57.719
<v Speaker 2>and to be a force for good. And her father

796
00:41:57.840 --> 00:42:00.440
<v Speaker 2>really started that with the Amber Alert. He was at

797
00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:03.559
<v Speaker 2>a point where he was restless, the media attention was waning,

798
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:08.239
<v Speaker 2>and I reached out to Utah's congressional delegation and Senator

799
00:42:08.360 --> 00:42:12.800
<v Speaker 2>Orn Hatch's office suggested that we get involved with lobbying

800
00:42:12.960 --> 00:42:15.880
<v Speaker 2>for the Amber Alert, and Ed it was a perfect fit.

801
00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:18.679
<v Speaker 2>He was as passionate about it as anyone could be.

802
00:42:18.800 --> 00:42:23.000
<v Speaker 2>We lobbied on Capitol Hill, we did countless interviews, and

803
00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:25.360
<v Speaker 2>the nice thing about it was it gave us an

804
00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:27.840
<v Speaker 2>opportunity every time we talked about it to also talk

805
00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:31.079
<v Speaker 2>about Elizabeth and to keep her story alive, but in

806
00:42:31.159 --> 00:42:35.239
<v Speaker 2>the process to do something very positive. And shortly after

807
00:42:35.760 --> 00:42:39.199
<v Speaker 2>Elizabeth was rescued, Ed really put the heat on, and

808
00:42:39.320 --> 00:42:42.039
<v Speaker 2>Elizabeth even wrote a letter to Congress, and a few

809
00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:45.159
<v Speaker 2>weeks later, the National Lumber Alert was passed. And it's

810
00:42:45.559 --> 00:42:48.599
<v Speaker 2>something that has stood as kind of a hallmark of

811
00:42:48.719 --> 00:42:51.920
<v Speaker 2>that case that it's been something that's now universal and

812
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:55.760
<v Speaker 2>has helped bring so many kids safely home and you've.

813
00:42:55.639 --> 00:42:59.840
<v Speaker 5>Worked and Elizabeth asked you to be involved with her,

814
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:03.239
<v Speaker 5>and again just tell us what this role was with

815
00:43:03.400 --> 00:43:07.599
<v Speaker 5>this much different project than the rescue and search for Elizabeth.

816
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:11.400
<v Speaker 2>So years later I worked with Elizabeth during the trial.

817
00:43:11.559 --> 00:43:15.599
<v Speaker 2>It was about a decade later that her abductors were

818
00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:19.280
<v Speaker 2>put on trial and then sentenced, and we looked at

819
00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:22.760
<v Speaker 2>how do we take this opportunity where there was a

820
00:43:22.840 --> 00:43:26.599
<v Speaker 2>lot of attention and use that to put out a

821
00:43:26.719 --> 00:43:31.119
<v Speaker 2>message about other survivors and other victims of child abduction

822
00:43:31.280 --> 00:43:35.880
<v Speaker 2>and sexual abuse, and worked with something that Elizabeth is

823
00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:39.239
<v Speaker 2>such a shy and modest person. She didn't want it

824
00:43:39.320 --> 00:43:41.559
<v Speaker 2>to be about her, and so this gave her something

825
00:43:41.639 --> 00:43:44.719
<v Speaker 2>else of substance to talk about and she's like, I

826
00:43:44.800 --> 00:43:46.360
<v Speaker 2>want to do this. Can I do more of this?

827
00:43:46.480 --> 00:43:49.039
<v Speaker 2>And it's you know, you have a tremendous opportunity to

828
00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:53.119
<v Speaker 2>be an advocate, And so we started working together and

829
00:43:53.199 --> 00:43:55.239
<v Speaker 2>figuring out and she had a lot of opportunities. A

830
00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:57.159
<v Speaker 2>lot of people played a role in this, but really

831
00:43:57.199 --> 00:43:59.920
<v Speaker 2>figured out how to position her in the best way

832
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:03.719
<v Speaker 2>possible so that she could make a difference and be

833
00:44:03.800 --> 00:44:05.000
<v Speaker 2>a voice for the voiceless.

834
00:44:05.519 --> 00:44:09.760
<v Speaker 5>You write in the introduction that members of the church.

835
00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:14.639
<v Speaker 5>If I don't have this incorrect. There's a reason why

836
00:44:14.760 --> 00:44:17.280
<v Speaker 5>you took so long to be able to write this book,

837
00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:20.679
<v Speaker 5>and there's a reason why it is so important to

838
00:44:20.760 --> 00:44:24.039
<v Speaker 5>include your upbringing and the lessons that you learned by

839
00:44:24.119 --> 00:44:27.000
<v Speaker 5>growing up in the culture of the Latter day Saints church.

840
00:44:27.239 --> 00:44:29.960
<v Speaker 5>Tell us a little bit about these connections and the

841
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:33.159
<v Speaker 5>relations to this story and your upbringing.

842
00:44:33.320 --> 00:44:35.719
<v Speaker 2>Sure, so I worked as I was writing the book,

843
00:44:35.880 --> 00:44:37.960
<v Speaker 2>I was part of a group of writers from around

844
00:44:38.039 --> 00:44:41.039
<v Speaker 2>the country who had no connections to Utah and no

845
00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:43.920
<v Speaker 2>connections to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

846
00:44:43.960 --> 00:44:47.440
<v Speaker 2>And as I was reviewing some initial material, they really

847
00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:50.400
<v Speaker 2>pushed me and my culture to me is passe, and

848
00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:52.840
<v Speaker 2>they kept saying, well, wait, what is this and explain

849
00:44:52.960 --> 00:44:56.239
<v Speaker 2>that we're not interested from a religious standpoint, but we're

850
00:44:56.280 --> 00:45:00.400
<v Speaker 2>really interested in your culture, and your culture really plays

851
00:45:00.400 --> 00:45:03.199
<v Speaker 2>an important role in this story. And so they pushed

852
00:45:03.239 --> 00:45:05.440
<v Speaker 2>me a lot. And we're a great sounding board as

853
00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:09.960
<v Speaker 2>somebody on the outside that helped talk about about that culture.

854
00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:12.920
<v Speaker 2>But I grew up in a culture that's very well organized,

855
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:16.000
<v Speaker 2>that that's very disciplined, you know, in the you know,

856
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:19.320
<v Speaker 2>the Mormon Church is the common term gone away from it.

857
00:45:19.639 --> 00:45:20.199
<v Speaker 5>In the church.

858
00:45:20.360 --> 00:45:21.960
<v Speaker 2>You know, even from the age of three or four

859
00:45:22.039 --> 00:45:24.880
<v Speaker 2>years old, you start speaking to the to the group,

860
00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:27.719
<v Speaker 2>so you're grown up. You grow up as a communicator,

861
00:45:27.840 --> 00:45:31.000
<v Speaker 2>you grow up doing a lot of service, and you know,

862
00:45:31.159 --> 00:45:34.440
<v Speaker 2>many people choose to serve a full time two year mission,

863
00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:36.440
<v Speaker 2>which I had the opportunity to do at the age

864
00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:39.760
<v Speaker 2>of nineteen, and there were many experiences through that that

865
00:45:40.480 --> 00:45:43.480
<v Speaker 2>prepared me for the opportunity to work with the Smarts

866
00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:45.639
<v Speaker 2>and then with the Smarts, I mean. Some interesting elements

867
00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:47.880
<v Speaker 2>of that culture as well is that you know, each

868
00:45:48.039 --> 00:45:51.960
<v Speaker 2>congregation is geographical, so if you live in a certain area,

869
00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:54.159
<v Speaker 2>you go to church with the same people in that

870
00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:57.400
<v Speaker 2>area at the same time each week. And it creates,

871
00:45:57.519 --> 00:46:00.800
<v Speaker 2>especially in Utah, it almost creates these small towns within

872
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:03.400
<v Speaker 2>a small town where everybody knows each other, everybody looks

873
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:06.679
<v Speaker 2>out for each other, and when there are needs and challenges,

874
00:46:06.880 --> 00:46:08.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, the village really comes together to help. And

875
00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:11.119
<v Speaker 2>that was a big part of the reason that the

876
00:46:11.239 --> 00:46:14.280
<v Speaker 2>search for Elizabeth was organized so quickly and so efficiently.

877
00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:16.320
<v Speaker 2>There were some outside groups that came in to help

878
00:46:16.360 --> 00:46:18.960
<v Speaker 2>with that as well. But the culture itself, and there

879
00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:20.760
<v Speaker 2>are many people who aren't in the church that are

880
00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:23.239
<v Speaker 2>a part of this culture as well that really lent

881
00:46:23.400 --> 00:46:27.880
<v Speaker 2>to that search effort and lent to providing the providing

882
00:46:27.920 --> 00:46:29.599
<v Speaker 2>to the needs of the family during that time.

883
00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:33.880
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it's very it's fascinating to see the immediate response

884
00:46:34.119 --> 00:46:38.840
<v Speaker 5>and the level of organization in this church that rallied

885
00:46:38.880 --> 00:46:42.719
<v Speaker 5>around this family is extraordinary, and I have not read

886
00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:45.199
<v Speaker 5>of anything of the sort in comparison.

887
00:46:45.519 --> 00:46:48.119
<v Speaker 2>And the interesting thing is, you know, the Smarts lived

888
00:46:48.199 --> 00:46:51.360
<v Speaker 2>in an area where people were more affluent, but this

889
00:46:51.519 --> 00:46:55.320
<v Speaker 2>same structure is exists throughout the world. Had some friends

890
00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:57.239
<v Speaker 2>who had an issue while they were on vacation in

891
00:46:57.320 --> 00:47:00.559
<v Speaker 2>Hawaii and had some extenuating circumstances, and they were able

892
00:47:00.639 --> 00:47:02.280
<v Speaker 2>to get a hold of the bishop, the leader of

893
00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:04.719
<v Speaker 2>the local ward, and then they were able to come

894
00:47:04.760 --> 00:47:07.679
<v Speaker 2>to their aid. And so there really is an amazing

895
00:47:07.840 --> 00:47:10.800
<v Speaker 2>tradition that goes back to the early days of the

896
00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:14.599
<v Speaker 2>Church of people serving one another and really being there

897
00:47:14.639 --> 00:47:16.840
<v Speaker 2>in times of need. And this was just a prime

898
00:47:16.920 --> 00:47:17.559
<v Speaker 2>example of that.

899
00:47:17.880 --> 00:47:20.320
<v Speaker 5>You also don't go into too much, but I think

900
00:47:20.360 --> 00:47:23.679
<v Speaker 5>it is very important that you and you do stress

901
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:29.280
<v Speaker 5>this that despite what Brian David Mitchell contended in say

902
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:34.280
<v Speaker 5>interviews and what the media interpreted and conveys in their

903
00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:39.480
<v Speaker 5>reports some form of connection, sort of an extremist religious

904
00:47:39.639 --> 00:47:44.599
<v Speaker 5>connection that Mitchell had with the Latter day Saints of

905
00:47:44.719 --> 00:47:48.920
<v Speaker 5>the Church. So you talk about polygamy and that issue

906
00:47:49.119 --> 00:47:52.159
<v Speaker 5>and dispel any kind of the notions that people might have.

907
00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:56.280
<v Speaker 2>And that's the stereotype of my religion, polygamy, which was

908
00:47:56.360 --> 00:47:59.599
<v Speaker 2>something that was outlawed in the eighteen hundreds. There are

909
00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:02.079
<v Speaker 2>fundamentallyst groups that are not tied to the Church, that

910
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:05.119
<v Speaker 2>are very much around the fringe that practice polygamy. And

911
00:48:05.239 --> 00:48:07.079
<v Speaker 2>I write in the book that I was asked one

912
00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:11.800
<v Speaker 2>as a child in Missouri, a gift shop cashier asked

913
00:48:11.840 --> 00:48:14.320
<v Speaker 2>me how many wives my parents had, And I'd never

914
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:17.119
<v Speaker 2>seen a polygamist growing up. I have since then, but

915
00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:19.280
<v Speaker 2>I growing up, I'd never seen one. Yeah, But there

916
00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:22.119
<v Speaker 2>are all these stories, there are lots of Netflix docuseries,

917
00:48:22.159 --> 00:48:25.760
<v Speaker 2>there's books, there's other things written about these splinter groups

918
00:48:26.800 --> 00:48:29.800
<v Speaker 2>well outside of the Church and a small fraction of

919
00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:34.480
<v Speaker 2>them that there's these extremists, the herbal Leverons, the Warren Jeffs,

920
00:48:34.519 --> 00:48:39.079
<v Speaker 2>the Brian David Mitchell's that use religion as a leverage

921
00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:41.559
<v Speaker 2>to get what they want. Elizabeth in her book said

922
00:48:41.599 --> 00:48:43.960
<v Speaker 2>that Brian David Mitchell didn't care about religion. All he

923
00:48:44.119 --> 00:48:47.679
<v Speaker 2>cared about was sex and alcohol in that order. And

924
00:48:48.199 --> 00:48:52.519
<v Speaker 2>so it's something that is misportrayed a lot specific to

925
00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:55.800
<v Speaker 2>the current Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints,

926
00:48:56.079 --> 00:48:58.079
<v Speaker 2>and so it was something that I did want to

927
00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:01.000
<v Speaker 2>address and just fell a little bit. Not that there

928
00:49:01.079 --> 00:49:03.039
<v Speaker 2>aren't issues in places, and not that there aren't some

929
00:49:03.199 --> 00:49:05.960
<v Speaker 2>issues with these splinter groups, but it's such a small percentage,

930
00:49:06.000 --> 00:49:09.800
<v Speaker 2>and it's unfortunate that it taints a group of good,

931
00:49:09.880 --> 00:49:13.840
<v Speaker 2>god faring people that are doing amazing things in our

932
00:49:13.880 --> 00:49:15.199
<v Speaker 2>community and in society.

933
00:49:15.599 --> 00:49:18.519
<v Speaker 5>We didn't talk about and we didn't talk about this

934
00:49:18.599 --> 00:49:21.360
<v Speaker 5>in the beginning, but I think it's important tell us

935
00:49:21.400 --> 00:49:25.280
<v Speaker 5>about the genesis of this book, because originally you were

936
00:49:25.360 --> 00:49:28.719
<v Speaker 5>writing about your next door neighbor, the damage Warvette, and

937
00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:31.519
<v Speaker 5>the relationship that you had and all you learned on

938
00:49:31.679 --> 00:49:34.639
<v Speaker 5>that relationship. But tell us how it plays into the

939
00:49:34.760 --> 00:49:36.960
<v Speaker 5>genesis of this book unexpected.

940
00:49:37.480 --> 00:49:39.559
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to spoil it, but the last chapter

941
00:49:39.719 --> 00:49:43.239
<v Speaker 2>is an experience that happened at a celebration a couple

942
00:49:43.280 --> 00:49:48.159
<v Speaker 2>of days after Elizabeth was rescued, and I encounter somebody

943
00:49:48.239 --> 00:49:51.800
<v Speaker 2>who just ties everything back. It was as though my

944
00:49:51.960 --> 00:49:56.039
<v Speaker 2>experience growing up with Baker Paxton had prepared me for

945
00:49:56.280 --> 00:49:58.719
<v Speaker 2>that moment. It was one of the most miraculous moments

946
00:49:58.760 --> 00:50:02.199
<v Speaker 2>outside of with rescue and meeting her for the first time.

947
00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:04.440
<v Speaker 2>It brings those two stories together. I've heard from a

948
00:50:04.519 --> 00:50:06.960
<v Speaker 2>number of people who've read the book that initially they're like, wait,

949
00:50:07.039 --> 00:50:09.239
<v Speaker 2>what is this backstory, Like, I just want to read

950
00:50:09.239 --> 00:50:12.840
<v Speaker 2>about the Smart And over time they cooked by it

951
00:50:12.920 --> 00:50:16.079
<v Speaker 2>and they all of a sudden are wanting to see

952
00:50:16.199 --> 00:50:18.679
<v Speaker 2>where that one goes as well, and then just amaze

953
00:50:18.719 --> 00:50:20.159
<v Speaker 2>how they come together in the very end.

954
00:50:20.440 --> 00:50:23.840
<v Speaker 5>And you say that there's the role of the values

955
00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:27.599
<v Speaker 5>that you learned growing up in the church. Speak to

956
00:50:28.079 --> 00:50:31.599
<v Speaker 5>the kinds of things like forgiveness and understanding, which led

957
00:50:31.639 --> 00:50:35.800
<v Speaker 5>to being able to successfully manage the kind of eccentric

958
00:50:36.360 --> 00:50:39.480
<v Speaker 5>and at times out of control characters of people like

959
00:50:39.639 --> 00:50:43.000
<v Speaker 5>Tom Smart and other people in the media themselves that

960
00:50:43.119 --> 00:50:44.119
<v Speaker 5>had their own agendas.

961
00:50:44.760 --> 00:50:47.920
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and I think today we have we're just so

962
00:50:48.079 --> 00:50:53.880
<v Speaker 2>quick to judge people, and especially people going through extenuating circumstances,

963
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:57.239
<v Speaker 2>and it's often when these people need our help the

964
00:50:57.320 --> 00:51:00.039
<v Speaker 2>most that we are the most critical of them. And

965
00:51:00.280 --> 00:51:05.559
<v Speaker 2>those experiences growing up helped me to hopefully be a

966
00:51:05.639 --> 00:51:08.880
<v Speaker 2>little bit more understanding and charitable and to have a

967
00:51:08.920 --> 00:51:12.159
<v Speaker 2>little more patience in those circumstances, because it was you know,

968
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:14.159
<v Speaker 2>if I snapped at the media, that wasn't going to

969
00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:16.599
<v Speaker 2>reflect well on the smart family. And so how do

970
00:51:16.679 --> 00:51:19.840
<v Speaker 2>you how do you diplomatically handle that situation? How do

971
00:51:19.920 --> 00:51:22.679
<v Speaker 2>you give somebody the benefit of the doubt while still

972
00:51:22.760 --> 00:51:25.039
<v Speaker 2>being assertive and looking out for the best interest of

973
00:51:25.119 --> 00:51:27.760
<v Speaker 2>your client. And so a lot of those lessons growing

974
00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:31.360
<v Speaker 2>up really instilled that in me and prepared me for

975
00:51:31.559 --> 00:51:35.519
<v Speaker 2>those experiences, and reflecting on it twenty years later has

976
00:51:35.559 --> 00:51:38.280
<v Speaker 2>helped reassure that, I mean, I still struggle with it.

977
00:51:38.360 --> 00:51:40.880
<v Speaker 2>It's not like I'm an expert at it reminds me

978
00:51:41.039 --> 00:51:43.119
<v Speaker 2>and all the time in my often I'll meet somebody

979
00:51:43.159 --> 00:51:45.199
<v Speaker 2>and in the back of my mind, I'll say, Baker,

980
00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:48.639
<v Speaker 2>you know, to remind me that this person is likely

981
00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:51.679
<v Speaker 2>very different than how I'm judging them in the story

982
00:51:51.719 --> 00:51:53.159
<v Speaker 2>I'm telling myself in the moment.

983
00:51:53.760 --> 00:51:56.719
<v Speaker 5>Yes, absolutely, It's an extraordinary book and I want to

984
00:51:56.760 --> 00:51:59.800
<v Speaker 5>thank you so much for coming on and talking about unexpected,

985
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:03.679
<v Speaker 5>the backstory of finding Elizabeth Smart and growing up in

986
00:52:03.800 --> 00:52:07.320
<v Speaker 5>the culture of an American religion. Chris Thomas, can you

987
00:52:07.440 --> 00:52:09.840
<v Speaker 5>tell us if people want to find out more information?

988
00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:12.920
<v Speaker 5>Is there a website? Do any do any social media?

989
00:52:13.039 --> 00:52:17.880
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely so, Chris Thomas connects dot com and a really

990
00:52:18.159 --> 00:52:20.199
<v Speaker 2>fun element of that, Dan, I think you find this

991
00:52:20.320 --> 00:52:23.559
<v Speaker 2>interesting is I went and pulled from about twelve chapters.

992
00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:26.920
<v Speaker 2>I pulled the video so Bill O'Reilly interview for example.

993
00:52:27.400 --> 00:52:30.480
<v Speaker 2>I have excerpts from that interview video of that interview,

994
00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:32.800
<v Speaker 2>so you can actually go back and see that that

995
00:52:32.960 --> 00:52:35.119
<v Speaker 2>corresponds with it. I have a number of pictures there.

996
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:38.400
<v Speaker 2>It links to my social media and so trying to

997
00:52:38.440 --> 00:52:42.800
<v Speaker 2>make it something that is dynamic and multimedia in function.

998
00:52:43.039 --> 00:52:45.400
<v Speaker 2>So I hope people will enjoy that. And you know,

999
00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:47.960
<v Speaker 2>the books available just about everywhere as well as on audible.

1000
00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:50.159
<v Speaker 2>I voiced the book, so if you're not pared of

1001
00:52:50.239 --> 00:52:51.960
<v Speaker 2>my voice, you can hear it in nine and a

1002
00:52:52.000 --> 00:52:52.719
<v Speaker 2>half hours more.

1003
00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:56.199
<v Speaker 5>Well, thank you so much. That's great news, and it's

1004
00:52:56.280 --> 00:52:59.760
<v Speaker 5>great to hear that you're voicing your own audiobook as well.

1005
00:52:59.800 --> 00:53:03.079
<v Speaker 5>That it's very very interesting and I think very much

1006
00:53:04.159 --> 00:53:07.280
<v Speaker 5>warranted and also appreciate it. I want to thank you

1007
00:53:07.360 --> 00:53:10.159
<v Speaker 5>so much for coming on and talking about your book Unexpected,

1008
00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:13.400
<v Speaker 5>the backstory of finding Elizabeth Smart and growing up in

1009
00:53:13.480 --> 00:53:16.679
<v Speaker 5>the culture of an American religion. Chris Thomas, you have

1010
00:53:16.719 --> 00:53:18.960
<v Speaker 5>a great evening, and thank you so much for this interview.

1011
00:53:19.119 --> 00:53:20.639
<v Speaker 2>You too, Dan, thank you so much.

1012
00:53:20.840 --> 00:53:21.199
<v Speaker 3>Good night.