Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: My name is Josel and Anti and I'm from Pedaluma
Speaker 2: and I play at Rooster Run Golf Course in Pedluma, California.
Speaker 2: This is Golf Smarter episode nine hundred and ninety nine.
Speaker 1: Rick Martine told me years and years ago and when
Speaker 1: PGA down at their Port Saint Lucy complex built the
Speaker 1: Die Preserve, he got to spend a lot of time
Speaker 1: with Pete and Alice Dye. And he goes, I never
Speaker 1: really knew this, but once they get the routing done,
Speaker 1: they build every hole from the green backwards. So he goes,
Speaker 1: if you really want to learn how to play a hole,
Speaker 1: go stand on the green and look backwards, and you
Speaker 1: will figure out where you need to hit in from
Speaker 1: to make the ball hold the green, to make the
Speaker 1: ball have your best release, to be able to get
Speaker 1: flags to go for other places. And once you figure
Speaker 1: out where that is, then you walk backwards to that
Speaker 1: spot and you go, well, clearly, I should be teeing
Speaker 1: off on the right side of the tee so that
Speaker 1: it opens up the fairway for me. I don't know
Speaker 1: if great players do that on tour, but I do
Speaker 1: know that most of the caddies I see out there
Speaker 1: pre walking the course, are walking the exact opposite direction
Speaker 1: of where we're going, and they look at it that way.
Speaker 3: How to read golf courses from green to tea to
Speaker 3: maximize your game Their old friend Joe Howett.
Speaker 1: This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights from
Speaker 1: great golf minds to help you lower your score and
Speaker 1: raise your golf IQ.
Speaker 3: Here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome back to the Golf
Speaker 3: Smarter podcast.
Speaker 1: Joe, Fred, it's great to see you again. And I
Speaker 1: know you're on the road to one thousand, and you
Speaker 1: know you got to have a speed bump along the way,
Speaker 1: so thanks for taking me in there towards the ultimate goal.
Speaker 1: I don't want to slow you down on your charge.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, this is not a speed bump at all.
Speaker 3: This is a celebration. Coming up to episode one thousand
Speaker 3: is just mind blowing to me. And I really wanted
Speaker 3: to feature and focus on the people who I think
Speaker 3: made this podcast great. And you definitely get to be
Speaker 3: in the very highest slot here at nine ninety nine.
Speaker 1: You know, if you look that upside down, that might
Speaker 1: feel how some players feel about their instructor. Six sixty six.
Speaker 1: You're making me do things I can't do well.
Speaker 3: Actually, episode six hundred and sixty six was with golf
Speaker 3: course architect Trip Davis.
Speaker 1: Well, that is kind of the Antichrist if you think
Speaker 1: about it. Those golf course architects sneak little troubles and
Speaker 1: tribulations in there.
Speaker 3: Do you do you love golf course design or does
Speaker 3: it frustrate you?
Speaker 1: Well, that's a really good question, and I do love
Speaker 1: golf course design. And I think all of a sudden
Speaker 1: you're seeing, you know, like the gil Hons's that are
Speaker 1: out there, and you got the bo Wellings, and you're
Speaker 1: seeing a lot of golf courses that are designed that
Speaker 1: are essentially equal, logically friendly, very easy to maintain, and
Speaker 1: most important and some of Tiger's new courses they're very playable.
Speaker 1: I think we've gotten that. You know, Pete Pete Die
Speaker 1: sort of stuck the golden key in there and open
Speaker 1: a door and go, what if we make up our
Speaker 1: three that's surrounded by water? And then everybody else said
Speaker 1: I can make it harder than that. And now the
Speaker 1: operators of the golf course have kind of come back
Speaker 1: and said, well, we like that, but there's a delay
Speaker 1: on the twelfth hole that is making everybody play this
Speaker 1: course in six hours, So how do we make this
Speaker 1: a little more friendly? And I do love looking at
Speaker 1: golf course design because you know from a coaching or
Speaker 1: a playing standpoint, and you know that too, Fred. You
Speaker 1: get up there and you go, what the world were
Speaker 1: they thinking? Or Wow, this is a great golf hole
Speaker 1: and look at all we're not even designers, and you
Speaker 1: can kind of go, look at all the different whole
Speaker 1: locations you can have here. Look at you could take
Speaker 1: a risk and play this way, and you could play
Speaker 1: it safe, play that way. And then you get to
Speaker 1: those other holes and you go, oh, dynamite. That's all
Speaker 1: this whole needs. Is just some dynamite. They should start
Speaker 1: over on that one. It's it's and I think there's
Speaker 1: a level of play where Fred, you and I would
Speaker 1: look at it and go, it's not because I can't
Speaker 1: play the whole great. It's because the only person who
Speaker 1: can play the whole great is either Rory McElroy, Jack
Speaker 1: Nicholas or Ben Hogan, you know. And so yeah, golf
Speaker 1: course design is fun and when it allows places to
Speaker 1: hit the ball for the average players, places for the
Speaker 1: better players to take chances, and plenty of spots on
Speaker 1: the green. You know, it's great to have tricky, undulating greens,
Speaker 1: but when you go over and you look at the
Speaker 1: greens over in Scotland and Ireland and England, they're also huge.
Speaker 1: And one of the tougher shots in golf is a
Speaker 1: really long put and you know, there's nothing to be
Speaker 1: said about, oh, this is a huge green. I hit
Speaker 1: the green. That don't mean you're making in par That
Speaker 1: means you got another tough shot in front of you.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I can't. You know, I've had multiple sixty foot putts.
Speaker 3: I kind of you know, I measure out my putts
Speaker 3: all the time, and I've had sixty foot putts And
Speaker 3: it's like, okay, you're in three putt territory here. You
Speaker 3: gotta that's something you really should be working on is
Speaker 3: lagging at that distance. But when you get to the
Speaker 3: hundred foot putts, it's like, please, can't I have a
Speaker 3: wedge here?
Speaker 1: Please? I've never swung a putter this hard and this
Speaker 1: fast unless I was really angry.
Speaker 3: Do you have architects that you like, look forward to
Speaker 3: playing their courses, that you really appreciate their work?
Speaker 1: You know, honestly, one of them that always stands out
Speaker 1: in my mind. I do love kind of the way
Speaker 1: gil Hans is letting everything flow around the course, whether
Speaker 1: it's in the Carolinas or even out in the Palm
Speaker 1: Springs area or gosh, one of his earliest designs and
Speaker 1: I'm for getting, oh my gosh, there's a college there
Speaker 1: and it's just outside jen and I'm not summer set.
Speaker 1: I'll think of it. But Nicholas has his deals. Tom Weiskough.
Speaker 1: Anytime I've ever played a weiss Cough course and I've
Speaker 1: gotten to maybe the twelfth or thirteenth toll, I'll look
Speaker 1: at somebody, go who designed this course? I thought. So
Speaker 1: I'm having a really good time and I'm actually scoring
Speaker 1: decent and it's kind of tough, So yeah, I thought
Speaker 1: he was a great designer. Really, just some hidden gems interesting.
Speaker 3: Interesting. And as an instructor, and especially because you're a
Speaker 3: PGA Master instructor and you're coaching at a higher level,
Speaker 3: how do you incorporate golf course architecture and design into
Speaker 3: your teaching? Because really what we're doing is we're not
Speaker 3: playing the golf ball, We're playing the golf course.
Speaker 1: I can't give you away all my secrets, you know.
Speaker 3: Yes, you can, because nobody's listening.
Speaker 1: Honestly, there's two things, and I will. I think all
Speaker 1: great instructors realize we've never come up with an original idea.
Speaker 1: We've always learned from our peers. Rick Martine told me
Speaker 1: years and years ago, and when PGA down at their
Speaker 1: Port Saint Lucy complex built the die the die course
Speaker 1: down there, the Die Preserve, he got to spend a
Speaker 1: lot of time with Pete and Alis Die and he goes,
Speaker 1: I never really knew this, but basically, once they get
Speaker 1: the routing done, they build every hole from the green backwards.
Speaker 1: So he goes, if you really want to learn how
Speaker 1: to play a hole, go stand on the green and
Speaker 1: look backwards, and you will figure out where you need
Speaker 1: to hit in from to make the ball hold the green,
Speaker 1: to make the ball have your best release, to be
Speaker 1: able to get flags to go for other places. And
Speaker 1: once you figure out where that is, then you walk
Speaker 1: backwards to that spot and you go, well, clearly, I
Speaker 1: should be teeing off on the right side of the
Speaker 1: tee so that it opens up the fairway for me.
Speaker 1: I don't know if great players do that on tour,
Speaker 1: but I do know that most of the caddies I
Speaker 1: see out there pre walking the course are walking the
Speaker 1: exact opposite direction of where we're going, and they look
Speaker 1: at it that way, and that's one big thing, so
Speaker 1: kind of thinking of the way you're going to play
Speaker 1: it from the green backwards. And then Gail Peterson, who
Speaker 1: is an amazing, amazing I mean he's a Hall of
Speaker 1: Fame instructor, top one hundred, top fifty, Bennett Sea Island
Speaker 1: for however many years. She sat down with me one
Speaker 1: afternoon in Kingsville and she got a beverage napkin tells
Speaker 1: you where we were sitting, and she goes, I learned
Speaker 1: this from Moe Pickens, and she goes, this is what
Speaker 1: players need to do when they get to a golf tournament.
Speaker 1: And he said, start with the obvious. A seven iron
Speaker 1: off of a flat lie is a seven iron off
Speaker 1: of a flat lie. Whether you're in Boise, Texas, New Hampshire,
Speaker 1: or Florida, the range, the course, it doesn't make any difference.
Speaker 1: That's a waste of your time. When you get to
Speaker 1: the tee, find your line on the tee. That gives
Speaker 1: you the ability to not run out a room and
Speaker 1: have the widest area to hit two. I think Scott
Speaker 1: Fawcett a decade would tell you that in two seconds,
Speaker 1: you know, find your widest area. And for a good player,
Speaker 1: make sure you don't run out of room. And I'm
Speaker 1: telling you as a coach when you say don't run
Speaker 1: out of room, this is very important. When you're in competition,
Speaker 1: you are moving faster and you are hitting the ball further.
Speaker 1: So if you go, oh, that's two seventy there, I'll
Speaker 1: never reach it. Baloney, you will hit that. I guarantee
Speaker 1: you you will hit that unless you hit an off shot.
Speaker 1: So not running out of room. Give yourself twenty yards,
Speaker 1: not just ten yards, all right, So that's one the
Speaker 1: speed of the greens. You got to know that. Find
Speaker 1: out what the sand is like, because the sand is
Speaker 1: different on every course. You might not always be using
Speaker 1: your sand. If the sand is more beach like, or
Speaker 1: if it's firmer, or if it's two or stand and
Speaker 1: it's perfect. You could hit a one iron out of there,
Speaker 1: probably if you still had one. So you gotta know
Speaker 1: what the sand is like. And the last thing is
Speaker 1: kind of interesting. Rough is rough, and you're gonna know
Speaker 1: in two seconds the most club you can hit out
Speaker 1: of there, Okay, find out the grass, the longer grass
Speaker 1: that's around the green, and find out how the ball
Speaker 1: will react when it rolls in there or bounces in there.
Speaker 1: Is gonna is it gonna hang on top of the grass,
Speaker 1: Is it gonna go halfway down the grass, or it
Speaker 1: was gonna go all the way down to the bottom
Speaker 1: of the grass. Learn those shots and learn what clubs
Speaker 1: you need. So in terms of course design, find your
Speaker 1: line off the tee, figure out what the bunkers the
Speaker 1: sand is, get the speed of the greens, and then
Speaker 1: find out what that longer grass around the green and
Speaker 1: how the ball is going to be sitting, and learn
Speaker 1: how to have your shot around there. And when you
Speaker 1: go watch the professionals practice, you can see you can
Speaker 1: see them back there on the tee. They're caddy and
Speaker 1: then there they got their sheet out and they're drawing lines.
Speaker 1: That's exactly what's happening off the tee. Maybe every fourth
Speaker 1: hole or so, they'll hit a ball out of a
Speaker 1: green side bunker to make sure that the sands are
Speaker 1: consistent the putting green and the regular green. They spend
Speaker 1: hours on there, and then they'll take a couple of
Speaker 1: golf balls. Sometimes they'll they'll hit a good shot up there,
Speaker 1: and their cady'll just take three golf balls and toss
Speaker 1: them over there and go, Okay, let's hit those and
Speaker 1: see see how it works. It's very efficient and you
Speaker 1: learn so much because those are the things that are
Speaker 1: different on every course you play, and every designer will
Speaker 1: have their own little spin on it.
Speaker 3: Okay, my mind is completely blown. That was so helpful
Speaker 3: for anybody at any level to have that. Now, of course,
Speaker 3: it's difficult to walk a course backwards when you're playing
Speaker 3: public golf or you know. I mean, if you have
Speaker 3: a country club, great, I'm sure you'll find times on
Speaker 3: Monday to be able to go walk your course backwards,
Speaker 3: but usually it's not the easiest thing to do. So,
Speaker 3: if I guess, the suggestion would be that make sure
Speaker 3: when you get to the green, of of course you're playing,
Speaker 3: turn around and look back so that the next time
Speaker 3: you're there.
Speaker 1: What do you think that's absolutely perfect? You know, And
Speaker 1: I've been around enough players throughout my career that they
Speaker 1: do get to the green and then they look back
Speaker 1: and they go, maybe we should try and carry that bunker.
Speaker 1: That's a way better line. And if we're down wind.
Speaker 1: We're definitely going to take it over that bunker. It
Speaker 1: opens up way down here, so that's a huge suggestion.
Speaker 1: And then move along, please, yeah.
Speaker 3: Right, don't stand there drawing pictures on the green and
Speaker 3: take your scorecard off the green, leave the area, open
Speaker 3: it up, then write down your scores. Don't do it
Speaker 3: on the green.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, So I have to tell you a
Speaker 1: fast story. But this is the best part about spending
Speaker 1: time with you. We always we start out with topics
Speaker 1: that we get way off tnded, but we have love topics.
Speaker 3: And we were there's no way we're going to get
Speaker 3: to all of them.
Speaker 1: I just know it, Like, don't stand there and draw pictures.
Speaker 1: Of course, you have yardage books. There was a young
Speaker 1: lady years and years ago that played the tour, Stacy Pramanasud,
Speaker 1: and she went out there I think two times, maybe three,
Speaker 1: And if I'm not incorrect in my story, I believe
Speaker 1: it was her father who was caddying for her. And
Speaker 1: as I said, you know, they all have the little
Speaker 1: yardage books, and I happened to and I will tell
Speaker 1: you very humbly, I was caddying for a young lady
Speaker 1: who I was helping a long name, NB Park, so
Speaker 1: she could have picked a better caddy. Anybody who's middle
Speaker 1: aged with bad feet and add is not a good choice.
Speaker 1: I can tell you that right away.
Speaker 3: Each other.
Speaker 1: So Stacy's dad has this book and I happen to
Speaker 1: kind of walk by him and he's over on the
Speaker 1: side of the green and I'm like, oh, good lord,
Speaker 1: he's drawing out the entire greed. I mean, he must
Speaker 1: have been a courtroom sketch artist at one point in
Speaker 1: his life, because I'm watching this san and it came
Speaker 1: together in like thirty seconds. He's got the he she
Speaker 1: gives him the club. He walks over to the next tee.
Speaker 1: He's got all the ridges and everything does. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: you guys need to frame these and sign them. They
Speaker 1: are unbelievable. And he's like, uh, sometimes we like the
Speaker 1: way we do it better. But never delayed play at all.
Speaker 1: And I was like, I was like, those are works
Speaker 1: of art, my man. That is just awesome. But today,
Speaker 1: obviously we have all kinds of topographical maps that we
Speaker 1: can pull down from anything. So but it's that was
Speaker 1: old school to a tea and it was a gorgeous
Speaker 1: work of art.
Speaker 3: That's awesome story. Thank you. You know, one of the
Speaker 3: things that kind of has rattled in my head for years,
Speaker 3: and I would love to have this disputed because it's
Speaker 3: probably not right. But I've always felt like the USGA,
Speaker 3: the governing bodies, let's just say, are advocate it's for
Speaker 3: the golf course more than they're an advocate for the golfer.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: The goal is, the goal is to make the golf
Speaker 3: courses difficult as it can be for every golfer at
Speaker 3: every level, right, And so they're more concerned about make
Speaker 3: you know, as opposed to when you talk about growing
Speaker 3: the game, it's not about the people, it's about the property.
Speaker 1: Night out. I always and let me tell you, I
Speaker 1: think Mike Wan, who is obviously the executive director of
Speaker 1: the USJA and did so much great stuff with the
Speaker 1: LPGA and making that tour become an accessible and exciting tour,
Speaker 1: I think little by little he's doing that with the USDA.
Speaker 1: But I think I think I was chatting with a
Speaker 1: caddy once and I said, and he and I were laughing,
Speaker 1: and he said something about it. He said, boy, if
Speaker 1: the USDA was in charge at NASCAR, it seems like
Speaker 1: they'd sneak in and under inflate a few of the
Speaker 1: tires on the guy's card. Yeah, and they'd probably nicked
Speaker 1: the brake line. While they're at it. They go, let's
Speaker 1: see how you boys do on this oval today. But
Speaker 1: it is they are advocates of the golf course, and
Speaker 1: much to their defense, it is the one week a
Speaker 1: year if you take out the you know, you're British
Speaker 1: and Scottish and Irish and all those type opens where
Speaker 1: you have weather that you will never deal with based
Speaker 1: on tour schedules. So you've got that. But it's going
Speaker 1: to be one of the toughest tests of golf. And
Speaker 1: I know it's tough on the players, but it's really
Speaker 1: a way to go. Okay, you guys are the hundred
Speaker 1: best we've seen. You hit your wedges closer than anybody
Speaker 1: because you go with every flag, You hit your driver
Speaker 1: further and everybody, and you're tremendous putters. Let's see if
Speaker 1: you can adapt to a facility or a course that
Speaker 1: doesn't set up for that. And that is a week
Speaker 1: where the champions a lot of times you go, God,
Speaker 1: that person came out of nowhere. How did they do
Speaker 1: that good? And they go, well, they adapted and the
Speaker 1: other ones that are you know, it's that big ego going,
Speaker 1: I will beat this golf course and you're going, no,
Speaker 1: first you got to befriend the golf course and go
Speaker 1: could you give me a little little birdie here on six? Maybe?
Speaker 1: And well, so it's there are they're advocates for the game,
Speaker 1: and I think the beauty of what they do is
Speaker 1: remind us all that this game every day is about adjusting.
Speaker 1: It's not about overpowering. Some days you're going to play
Speaker 1: in cold weather. Some days you're going to play and win.
Speaker 1: Some days you're going to And if you just think
Speaker 1: you can have one set of skills that's going to
Speaker 1: withstand all those. It's not if you hit a high
Speaker 1: ball and it's a windy day, you're going to struggle.
Speaker 1: If you hit a low ball and you're playing in
Speaker 1: a USGA event, it's not going to stop on the green. So,
Speaker 1: in a very interesting way, it forces even the best
Speaker 1: players of the world to maybe learn an added skill set.
Speaker 1: And of course, you know the beauty of a guy
Speaker 1: like Jack Nicholas is he could work the ball both directions.
Speaker 1: He could do whatever he wanted to do with the ball.
Speaker 1: He could hit it high, he can hit it low.
Speaker 1: And you find a player that can do that, and
Speaker 1: you got somebody, and then you get someone like Bryson
Speaker 1: who says, if I can hit it far enough, we
Speaker 1: all know how long the rough is. I got a
Speaker 1: sand wedge coming out of there. That's what I was
Speaker 1: going to hit from one eighty. I might as well
Speaker 1: be at one to twenty and see how I can
Speaker 1: get it to the creen. But again, that's not overpowering
Speaker 1: the USGA. That's going I found a different way to adapt.
Speaker 1: So it's a love and hate relationship I think with
Speaker 1: the players. And I'm going to tell you on the
Speaker 1: coaches side, Fred, you haven't lived till you're walking around
Speaker 1: the USGA US Open setup and a player goes, what
Speaker 1: in the world do I do from here? I'm going,
Speaker 1: I knew I should have stayed at a holiday and
Speaker 1: express last night.
Speaker 3: So we did a an episode recently with Terry Kaylor
Speaker 3: and we talked about how the amateur golf game, you know,
Speaker 3: because what you're talking about is for one weekend a
Speaker 3: year for very few select golfers, but golf courses have
Speaker 3: to survive all year long, right, and that they the
Speaker 3: pros literally play a different course than we play, even
Speaker 3: if we get to the opportunity to play on that
Speaker 3: same course. And the sense that they hit driver wedge
Speaker 3: right the only thing they hit longer. I think he
Speaker 3: even gave a statistic about Dustin Johnson hitting a seven
Speaker 3: iron once in one season on his approach shot. Is
Speaker 3: that the only reason they're hitting something more than a
Speaker 3: seven iron is because they're going for a part five
Speaker 3: and two right. They're usually hitting just wedges. Well, we're
Speaker 3: hitting hybrids, we're hitting you know, long irons, We're hitting
Speaker 3: three woods and five woods for our approach shots. Our
Speaker 3: game is much harder than their game. Yes, you're laughing
Speaker 3: at me again.
Speaker 1: No I'm not. I'm I'm agreeing with you and and
Speaker 1: all of us as we as we change our hair color,
Speaker 1: the swing speed we used to have we don't have,
Speaker 1: and that can facilitate equipment changes so that the ball
Speaker 1: will come in in what's known as a playable trajectory.
Speaker 1: You know, you don't want it coming in like a
Speaker 1: B one bomber, stating across the top of the green
Speaker 1: and expecting it to stop. If that's your if that's
Speaker 1: your flight plan, you might want to leave the flag
Speaker 1: in no matter where you are and hope that it
Speaker 1: runs into it. But we are playing a different game
Speaker 1: than they are. And from that standpoint, if you, I
Speaker 1: think just to throw the USGA in there again. The
Speaker 1: year that they had the twin US Opens at Pinehurst,
Speaker 1: everybody was scratching their head, going how are they going
Speaker 1: to pull this off? And when you realize that on
Speaker 1: the fourteenth hole, or the twelfth hole, or the seventh hole,
Speaker 1: that if the ladies had a seven or eight iron in,
Speaker 1: the men also had a seven or eight iron into
Speaker 1: that hole. And that becomes very much for the average player.
Speaker 1: And I think golf courses are doing a better job
Speaker 1: of this right now. Play the ts that will allow
Speaker 1: you to hit in and approach shot that is in
Speaker 1: your scoring iron range, maybe six, seven or eight iron,
Speaker 1: and that's the minute you get that. It's kind of
Speaker 1: like looking at every hole and subtracting one fifty five
Speaker 1: and going how far do I have to hit it
Speaker 1: off the tee? Oh my gosh. If we play these,
Speaker 1: I got to hit the shortest drive. I have to
Speaker 1: hit us two to seventy. The rest of them are
Speaker 1: three hundred. Yeah, I get it, forget it. And that's
Speaker 1: let me tell you something. There's there's a pride thing
Speaker 1: that you want to go back and play the tips.
Speaker 1: If you want to play the tips, play one of
Speaker 1: the par fives from the tips, play one of the
Speaker 1: par threes from the tips, and play one of the
Speaker 1: shorter par fours from the tips, because if you play
Speaker 1: the long par four from the tip, you're just playing
Speaker 1: another part five, right.
Speaker 3: Literally, that's a great suggestion, and any suggestion.
Speaker 1: If you're going to do that, Gosh, this game can
Speaker 1: be fun.
Speaker 3: The game is so much more fun when you're scoring well.
Speaker 3: I can't believe how you frustrated. I've been with golf
Speaker 3: over the years. But when I was able to and
Speaker 3: I'm not doing it now, but when I was able
Speaker 3: to hit you know, a couple of rounds in the
Speaker 3: upper seventies, it was like, Wow, that was fun. That's
Speaker 3: you know, that's when we get back into talking about
Speaker 3: the zone and the flow state. That was fun because
Speaker 3: it was just easy today. Yeah, I wasn't thinking about
Speaker 3: all those things.
Speaker 1: And when you're hitting those scoring irons in it doesn't
Speaker 1: take long to notice, Wow, this is where I need
Speaker 1: some work. Either you're hitting the fairway and missing the
Speaker 1: green or you're missing the fairway and missing the green.
Speaker 1: You either got to work in your t shot or
Speaker 1: your rights. But if you're having to reach for maximum
Speaker 1: distance on every shot, you don't know where to work.
Speaker 1: All you know is you've got to hit the ball further,
Speaker 1: and that generally is not a great recipe for getting better.
Speaker 3: So interesting that, you know, before we started, you had
Speaker 3: a couple of topics that you suggested that we talk about,
Speaker 3: and you just led into one of them as we
Speaker 3: talk about equipment changes and playing wedges into the green whatnot,
Speaker 3: and you suggested that maybe we need to talk about
Speaker 3: these specialty wedges and what they're not telling you, who's
Speaker 3: not telling us? What are they not saying?
Speaker 1: So this sounds like a big teaser, and it's like, uh.
Speaker 3: Oh, totally is fred what you said to me.
Speaker 1: You're going to put this out there and then my
Speaker 1: friends are going to go, Hall, it said something stupid
Speaker 1: again and they're going to go, what's what's so unusual
Speaker 1: about that? Joey? You know what? Honestly, and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: tell you, and I even I was even chatting with
Speaker 1: my better half on this and she goes, yeah, it
Speaker 1: usually takes you guys a couple of years to figure
Speaker 1: out what's going on. She's like, but when you're in
Speaker 1: the background. So I've watched this phenomenon that's been going on,
Speaker 1: and it's very prevalent with college golfers. These are young
Speaker 1: kids that have great swing speeds. And I'm so speaking
Speaker 1: both on the men's team and the ladies team college golf,
Speaker 1: and over the past two years for certain, maybe a
Speaker 1: little longer. All of a sudden, I keep going, I
Speaker 1: keep hearing the same comment, and like, there's something going
Speaker 1: on there, and I know it with my game, but
Speaker 1: I'm going, I don't play as much as I used to.
Speaker 1: I probably don't have a swing speed. So and one
Speaker 1: of them that comes out a ton is like you
Speaker 1: hear a twenty year old kid go, I don't get it,
Speaker 1: you know. And all the college kids they always have
Speaker 1: the latest equipment and everything else, right, they're always up
Speaker 1: to they take care of the teams, and they go,
Speaker 1: I just don't get it. I used to hit this
Speaker 1: fifty six degree wedge one twenty. I can't hit it
Speaker 1: over one oh five anymore. Still a fifty six degree wedge,
Speaker 1: still whatever, And I'm hearing the same comment from the
Speaker 1: young ladies on the university teams, and they're like, you know,
Speaker 1: fifty six used to be my go to at one
Speaker 1: hundred to one hundred and three yards. I can't get
Speaker 1: it over ninety five anymore.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. I have a sound effect for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, lah lah, Charlie Roan's teacher now. And I know
Speaker 1: you've had some of the greatest, some of the greatest
Speaker 1: short game guys in the business, like James Siekman and
Speaker 1: Stan Utley, and you know they would kind of go, well,
Speaker 1: first of all, if you're trying to hit your wedge
Speaker 1: full out, you've got a problem, I mean, because you
Speaker 1: deserve every evil that's about to come your way. But
Speaker 1: I went to I went the other route, and I said,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to an authority on this. So
Speaker 1: there is a tremendously gifted instructor up at Caves Valley
Speaker 1: named Bernie Najar, and Bernie happens to teach a guy
Speaker 1: named Kyle Berkshire. If you don't know who Kyle is,
Speaker 1: he is the world long drive champion, the kid with
Speaker 1: the long hair and the mullet, the five time champion.
Speaker 1: And I tell right, yes, exactly, And I said, Bernie
Speaker 1: I have a question that I'm sure you have run
Speaker 1: into because a lot of the guys you teach. Now
Speaker 1: he teaches tour players. And he said, a lot of
Speaker 1: the guys you teach. And I said, here's my question.
Speaker 1: I just posed it. I said, I keep hearing this comment.
Speaker 1: Is it me? Or are these boutique and specialty wedges?
Speaker 1: You know, you got Titleist Volk, the Cleveland with Callaway,
Speaker 1: you got the Glides with the ping, these great wedges
Speaker 1: that we have now are they going shorter than they
Speaker 1: used to? Bernie sends back, and I know, figuratively, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna grab my phone and find the message. But it
Speaker 1: was the greatest response I've ever seen. Interesting question. I'll
Speaker 1: get back to you in a second. It comes back
Speaker 1: the first line. First of all, wedges are for losers.
Speaker 1: They should drive the grain. And he said, no, what's
Speaker 1: happened on these wedges? The sixty degrees, the fifty eights,
Speaker 1: the fifty six is fifty four, it's fifty Two's is
Speaker 1: they are coming up with so many different soul configurations
Speaker 1: and heel relief and toe relief and different shavings that
Speaker 1: the center of gravity on those clubs keeps getting a
Speaker 1: little higher and higher, and that center of gravity starts
Speaker 1: pushing the club more under the ball. So when a
Speaker 1: player tries to swing that club faster and hit it further,
Speaker 1: it actually gets more spend, goes higher and shorter. But
Speaker 1: around the green you can operate that club at a
Speaker 1: much slower swing speed. And now you see these guys
Speaker 1: and ladies out there hit these chip shots and you're like,
Speaker 1: how in the world do they get that ball to
Speaker 1: stop downhill lot of long grass on a downhill green.
Speaker 1: That's impossible. So the design of these wedges has become
Speaker 1: one where at a slower speed around the green or
Speaker 1: in your twenty thirty forty fifty yard shot where you're
Speaker 1: not swinging full, they're phenomenal, but the overall distance on
Speaker 1: those when you try and crank it up to your
Speaker 1: full swing and normal swing, it's not going where it
Speaker 1: should be. Now, Bernie ended that and saying, if you
Speaker 1: look at some of the senior tour players, they are
Speaker 1: still playing wedges from three to four years ago. They're
Speaker 1: just getting them regrooved every year because of the waiting,
Speaker 1: they can use that extra distance. And Bernie's last sentence said,
Speaker 1: if you wanted a suggestion, for a player like that,
Speaker 1: I would get the gap wedge that goes with the set,
Speaker 1: you know, and sometimes it's an a wedge, and sometimes
Speaker 1: it says G on it, And as fate would have it,
Speaker 1: the very next day after that, I was in College Station, Texas,
Speaker 1: standing on the tee with Stacy Lewis. She had just
Speaker 1: come from a fitting at her club supplier as Mizuno,
Speaker 1: and she said, I got a distance I can't hit,
Speaker 1: and they're having trouble dialing these wedges in because they're
Speaker 1: not going as far anymore. She said, So I put
Speaker 1: this in the bag. What do you think? She pulled
Speaker 1: out the gap wedge exactly as Bert and I took
Speaker 1: a picture of it, and I said, Bernie, did you
Speaker 1: two guys talk before I got here? But I'm telling
Speaker 1: you that from the player that is maybe kind of
Speaker 1: the more athletic player doesn't have to be the college player.
Speaker 1: But if you like to go after that wedge, give
Speaker 1: that gap wedge that matches your set of clubs, give
Speaker 1: that another look. When you first got it, you probably
Speaker 1: got your wedges and everything, and you put that guy
Speaker 1: over in the garage, and little by little it's time
Speaker 1: to move the backup quarterback off of the bench and
Speaker 1: put him near the sidelines and let him take a
Speaker 1: look at what's going on.
Speaker 3: It's interesting to say that because I've been playing PXG
Speaker 3: clubs for about a year and it came with a
Speaker 3: gap and a pitching wedge, and I have found that
Speaker 3: I can really get a lot. I don't have to
Speaker 3: have a distance to pull out that gap wedge. Sometimes
Speaker 3: I choke up and I can knock ten yards off
Speaker 3: of it, right. Sometimes I use it as not necessarily
Speaker 3: a putting stroke. But if I just need to keep
Speaker 3: it along the ground, you know, keep it low and
Speaker 3: let it roll up, I can do that from forty
Speaker 3: five fifty yards.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: But what about like these boutique wedges, these companies, you know,
Speaker 3: like we're talking about Terry Kaylor and Edison Golf, and
Speaker 3: you know he comes up with lots of soul designs
Speaker 3: and whatnot makes his clubs unique. Can those boutique companies,
Speaker 3: can they compete with the vokies in the Cleveland's?
Speaker 1: Can they?
Speaker 3: And are they of value to the average golfer? Oh,
Speaker 3: I was talking about the amateur golfer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely think so. And for the amateur golfer,
Speaker 1: there's two things that you know. There is physics of
Speaker 1: the golf club and you can't argue with those literally,
Speaker 1: and there's physics of the driver and you can't argue
Speaker 1: with those. So that boutique wedge that you're going to
Speaker 1: look at, here's here's your two criteria. Number One, use
Speaker 1: them at controlled swing speeds, not full out. Doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be slow, but controlled swing speeds. And two, but
Speaker 1: I'm being honest about this, if it's a cool looking
Speaker 1: club and you go, God, I love the way this
Speaker 1: wedge looks, then dog on it. Stick it in your bag,
Speaker 1: because you're now you're dying to get to that spot
Speaker 1: to use the wedge. And that's the same spot used
Speaker 1: to go, oh god, I'm here again on fifteen. I
Speaker 1: hate this serially. At least if you have a club
Speaker 1: in front of you and you go, I really like
Speaker 1: the way this thing looks. Controlled swing speed looks good. Look,
Speaker 1: the grooves are going to be fine, the bounce is
Speaker 1: going to be fine on it. That's stuff you can
Speaker 1: find through any manufacturer, any fitting. But there's an area
Speaker 1: for those boutique wedges, just like there is potters. We
Speaker 1: talked about lab golf a little bit earlier, and you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's what meets what meets the eye as a
Speaker 1: big confidence builder. You know, you and I have had
Speaker 1: to go to things in our careers and we've gone
Speaker 1: and we've had to put on a coat and tie
Speaker 1: and you get halfway out the door and you go,
Speaker 1: I look like an idiot in this tie. Take the
Speaker 1: tie off and put a better tie on. Then you
Speaker 1: feel better and you have a little more confidence.
Speaker 3: But I'm only laughing because yeah, I really relate to that.
Speaker 1: You never I returned the tie I had to wear
Speaker 1: once I got to regifted it. Let's let's be honest, all.
Speaker 3: Right, Let's change topics for a little bit, because I'm
Speaker 3: really interested to get your impression of something that I've
Speaker 3: talked a lot about this year. And it's not it's
Speaker 3: weird because I don't I brag about the fact that
Speaker 3: I don't talk about the PGA or the LPGA tour.
Speaker 3: I have to say LPGA because you're here. But uh,
Speaker 3: I don't like talking about it because it's old news
Speaker 3: by the time a podcast comes out. But I was
Speaker 3: really enamored with TGL this year. I thought it was
Speaker 3: a lot of fun. I thought that it could be
Speaker 3: the future of how we do golf. I loved listening
Speaker 3: to these guys talk with each other, strategize with each other,
Speaker 3: you know, give each other a hard time.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: I thought it was a blast and two hours of golf.
Speaker 3: Any Yes, I love it. How did you feel about
Speaker 3: TGL this year?
Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan, I really am. I just yeah.
Speaker 1: And Fred, you've talked enough about it with your friends too,
Speaker 1: and I guarantee you the one within two sentences or
Speaker 1: three sentences anytime somebody talks about it. I love the
Speaker 1: shot clock. That's I mean there, it is right there,
Speaker 1: and it's beautiful. You know. I don't know how you
Speaker 1: would ever do it on a live tour event, but
Speaker 1: you know, at some point it would almost behoove to
Speaker 1: have that forty five second shot clock behind the green
Speaker 1: to go, dude, that guy's taking a minute and a half.
Speaker 1: And then you look at the official timing and you're like,
Speaker 1: he's been checking his emails for the last forty five seconds. Oh,
Speaker 1: let me start the buzzer, you know, so.
Speaker 4: And then all of a sudden, boom boo boom, yeah
Speaker 4: boo boom boo boom, and it's it's kind of like
Speaker 4: I it's so latable today because so many people and
Speaker 4: the affordability of the technologies and the launch monitors and
Speaker 4: the home simulators and the net.
Speaker 1: I mean, people can do this in their house and
Speaker 1: they can kind of play the same. And you know,
Speaker 1: if you grow this thing out, you go, well, you
Speaker 1: have your TGL leagues, but now you have your amateur leagues,
Speaker 1: and now you can get into sort of a bracket
Speaker 1: division and go the people that when the Southeast Division
Speaker 1: are going to be part of the TGL Championship and
Speaker 1: maybe the amateurs take on the pros. And I mean,
Speaker 1: I love it. It's it simulates golf, but it simulates
Speaker 1: the strategy, It simulates the pressure that they're under with
Speaker 1: the time clock. It simulates the camaraderie in this game,
Speaker 1: and it's you know, it's but you don't have.
Speaker 3: In tournament play because everyone's on their own island, right,
Speaker 3: But here you have team golf, which we know team
Speaker 3: golf works. Yes, between Ryder Cup and you know, President,
Speaker 3: we know it works.
Speaker 1: I I just I can't wait to see where it
Speaker 1: grows too, to be honest with you, because I think
Speaker 1: all it's going to do is keep getting better and
Speaker 1: better and to have a time limit and go, hey,
Speaker 1: I can watch this. Not only that, I can actually
Speaker 1: go back and I can. I'm I'm of that age.
Speaker 1: So do we still DVR or do we TVO? Or
Speaker 1: we way past that? Now?
Speaker 3: We record it?
Speaker 1: We recorded, Yes, that's what I We.
Speaker 3: Don't say videotape anymore. We just record it.
Speaker 1: But then you know, even you know, sometimes you go, oh,
Speaker 1: don't tell me what happened in the last round of
Speaker 1: the Masters, and then you rewatch it and you're like, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's six hours out of my life, and you're trying
Speaker 1: to fast forward and TGL You're like, man, this I
Speaker 1: can watch this and I can do it quick and
Speaker 1: I it's it's so accessible and it's so relatable to
Speaker 1: an Okay, there's a gentleman who I call the authority
Speaker 1: in the game of golf, and you need to have
Speaker 1: him on the podcast once. His name is Tim Briand,
Speaker 1: and he is with foresight, and he is the source
Speaker 1: of information of nobody I've ever seen. At this point worldwide,
Speaker 1: forty four percent of golf is off green grass.
Speaker 3: Tell me that number again, forty four if.
Speaker 1: I'm not incorrect, and I'll tell you what after the
Speaker 1: podcast I'll come back and you can put a different
Speaker 1: number down there if that's what it was. But it's
Speaker 1: so high to think that over forty percent of the
Speaker 1: golfers that's probably a better number, are not playing golf
Speaker 1: on a golf course. They're at top Golf, They're at Puttshack,
Speaker 1: They're at simulator places that are popping up all over
Speaker 1: the place. They're at their house, they're playing the World
Speaker 1: Golf League and Fred, You and I have a golf
Speaker 1: date with Jim and Bob every Thursday night. We are
Speaker 1: in our simulator room because we can afford the simulator.
Speaker 1: And oh, by the way, this week we are playing
Speaker 1: Oakmont and it's you and I best ball against their
Speaker 1: alternate shot. I mean, these things are going on all
Speaker 1: over the world. So the overall number of golfers is insane,
Speaker 1: but how much golf is non golf course golf is amazing,
Speaker 1: and that tgl is. I love everything that grows this game, literally,
Speaker 1: and I do. I really love top golf. Everybody's like,
Speaker 1: do you like it? And I'm like, well, you get
Speaker 1: I'm kind of new. I go, well, then make sure
Speaker 1: you're on the second floor or higher because every shove
Speaker 1: will be airborne regardless of what's happening, right, But sometimes
Speaker 1: that's as far as they go because it is fun
Speaker 1: to go there. It is fun to hang with your friends.
Speaker 1: It's fun to get a little bite to eat and
Speaker 1: maybe grab a brew or something and have a few chuckles.
Speaker 1: But the number of people that are like, gosh, I'd
Speaker 1: like to go try this on a golf course because
Speaker 1: it's a different game. But all of a sudden, the
Speaker 1: simulator golf and then you see the tgl and you're like, okay,
Speaker 1: let's do that. That is just pushing and it's hanging
Speaker 1: the biggest it's not a carrot, it's a giant ice
Speaker 1: chocolate cupcake. At the end of that stick to peepler
Speaker 1: going we are going to take a trip and we
Speaker 1: are gonna go play sand Hills, Nebraska, and we're all in,
Speaker 1: let's go. And the same people who might not have
Speaker 1: played the game four or five years ago but learned
Speaker 1: it on a simulator and they get pushed forward there.
Speaker 3: But does it grow the game?
Speaker 1: I think it grows the game, and I also think
Speaker 1: that it grows the participation on green grass golf courses.
Speaker 1: You do think so, yeah, because you know at some
Speaker 1: point you go, oh, my gosh, I had no idea
Speaker 1: the hill on this hole was that bad. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then you get that real life tingle and you're like,
Speaker 1: oh man, this is insane. I can't I can't believe
Speaker 1: we're here. So it it grows.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and it's interesting because you know, is TGL
Speaker 3: leading the way and simulator golf or they just like
Speaker 3: this is going on and it really represents what is
Speaker 3: going on, and now we have a media outlet to
Speaker 3: it that people are like, oh, you see, we are
Speaker 3: doing that, right, So you think that the future of
Speaker 3: simulator golf is the real thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they opened that can and all of
Speaker 1: a sudden they're going, lord yeah, I mean yeah the can.
Speaker 3: Ye I was like, what was that noise you just made?
Speaker 1: But literally, when you go over to Korea, so much
Speaker 1: of the golf is played in simulator rooms. I mean,
Speaker 1: that is your golf outing because the courses are so
Speaker 1: difficult to get on. And all of a sudden they
Speaker 1: peered open through that door and you go, my gosh.
Speaker 1: People have been doing this all over the world for
Speaker 1: the last eight to ten years, and now it's not like,
Speaker 1: come on, everybody, let's go. Do I feel like, do
Speaker 1: you guys realize how many people have been doing this
Speaker 1: for the last six, seven, eight years and it's a
Speaker 1: big fan, a huge fan.
Speaker 3: And I think that you know, in the fifties and
Speaker 3: sixties it was bowling alleys. I think simulators. I actually
Speaker 3: think if you get a room that has simulators and
Speaker 3: bowling and maybe even a couple ping pong tables, put
Speaker 3: a stage in a bar, we've got a room.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: So do you like on TVL.
Speaker 1: Pain putt and pen paint putt and pins?
Speaker 3: Be careful, yes, exactly. Now do you do you like
Speaker 3: on TGL how they're playing courses, you know, holes that
Speaker 3: are designed that no one's ever seen before. It's like,
Speaker 3: you know, we hear about oh I want to go
Speaker 3: play Bethpage Black because that's what the pros. Well, you
Speaker 3: can't play that course and you know the way they
Speaker 3: play it, right, But this is a course only the
Speaker 3: hand selected best players in the world are getting to play.
Speaker 3: Do you like that or do you wish you saw
Speaker 3: a little bit of pebble, a little bit of Saint Andrews,
Speaker 3: a little bit of you know, sawgrass.
Speaker 1: I think in a different way like with TGL and
Speaker 1: some of those holes that. I mean, that's another avenue
Speaker 1: for the amateur, be it a golfer, an amateur architect
Speaker 1: could go, I have an idea for a hole you
Speaker 1: guys could play and Fred you and I. I'm surprised
Speaker 1: they haven't done this yet, but I want to say,
Speaker 1: was his name Lloyd or Loyal Chapman that used to
Speaker 1: make the paintings of the insane golf holes, you know,
Speaker 1: like the side of the Grand Canyon where it just
Speaker 1: dropped and then you know you had the machog. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and so again another avenue that brings more people into
Speaker 1: the game and interest to kind of go, hey, why
Speaker 1: don't you design a hole? Maybe you can end up
Speaker 1: on TGL.
Speaker 3: That's a great idea to open it up for a
Speaker 3: design contest. Wow. Yeah again, and it's you know, once
Speaker 3: that out there, then you go, how do I How
Speaker 3: do I play that golfle on my simulator?
Speaker 1: That looks like so much fun? Right, And maybe it's
Speaker 1: not a real golfer in real life, but you go,
Speaker 1: I got to play with the pros played.
Speaker 3: There you go? There you go, though, maybe they should
Speaker 3: make them available. We had Augie Pisa who designed you know,
Speaker 3: he was one of the three designers and he talked
Speaker 3: about those assignments. It was great. Do you know since
Speaker 3: you were really tapped into the LPGA, do you know
Speaker 3: of any women that have been approached that they said, Hey,
Speaker 3: we're going to do an LPGA TGL or possibly even
Speaker 3: co ed teams. I just think that the what they
Speaker 3: can do with different teams now, between co ed, between
Speaker 3: the seniors, between you know, bringing in amateurs or not.
Speaker 3: I think that there's something that they can do to
Speaker 3: make this. It just doesn't have to be one time
Speaker 3: of year. It could be. I'm sure ESPN's looking to
Speaker 3: expand this because it worked for them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it could definitely be things to do in
Speaker 1: the off season. Do I know if anybody has approached
Speaker 1: the LPGA. I do not at this point, but I
Speaker 1: will tell you this, the comments and the interest from
Speaker 1: the ladies out there is like, that would be so
Speaker 1: much fun. That would be so much fun, and it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: we definitely have to get the team. We've got to
Speaker 1: get you know, Lexi Thompson and Maria Fosse for length
Speaker 1: off the tee and oh my gosh, you know we
Speaker 1: can bring inby Park out of retirement. She's one of
Speaker 1: the greatest putters ever and all of a sudden you go,
Speaker 1: So the enthusiasm is there on the lady side. And
Speaker 1: I've heard that same comment too. It'd be like, wow,
Speaker 1: if they could do a co ed thing, it would
Speaker 1: be really neat.
Speaker 3: Right, right, Yeah, but less I think for seniors to bring.
Speaker 3: You know, it's like, the thing that was beautiful about
Speaker 3: seeing Tiger first of all, is that it made him human,
Speaker 3: unlike anything we've ever seen. He was having so much fun,
Speaker 3: and he was vulnerable, and he made mistakes. We love
Speaker 3: to see that, right, But with we're not going to
Speaker 3: see Tiger walk seventy two holes again. No, I'm pretty much.
Speaker 3: I think everyone can agree that that ship has sailed, unfortunately,
Speaker 3: but he can play a TG. He can play it
Speaker 3: so far in Florida, right it's around not only around
Speaker 3: the corner from his house. But seniors don't have to
Speaker 3: have that seventy two holes of walking. They have two
Speaker 3: hours of going from this hole, you know, from hitting
Speaker 3: over here on the grass to their little funny green.
Speaker 1: Fred, You're an influencer in this business, and the only
Speaker 1: thing that's going through my mind right now is they
Speaker 1: can definitely have a Wendy's three Tour Challenge on the TGL,
Speaker 1: and that was I got to go to those a
Speaker 1: couple of years with Stacy Lewis and to talk about
Speaker 1: how much fun those players had and how much fun
Speaker 1: the spectators had. But it was neat to see the players.
Speaker 1: I remember the one year Stacey played with bou Weekley
Speaker 1: and Kenny Perry and to just be standing there to
Speaker 1: the side and then watch them. You know, Boo is like,
Speaker 1: how do you hit that shot? And then Kenny Perry's
Speaker 1: coming over and he's like, you know, I found that
Speaker 1: as I got older, I changed this a little bit
Speaker 1: and that actually gave me more distance on my driver,
Speaker 1: changing this in my swing and I'm over there. I
Speaker 1: can't write things down past he speaks slower, please, But
Speaker 1: what a simplistic idea, but that that was so much
Speaker 1: fun for the players. And when you get those, when
Speaker 1: you get the co Eds or you bring the seniors in,
Speaker 1: every one of those players in the group learns something
Speaker 1: from one another. And it isn't just like I got
Speaker 1: to hit it longer, or I got a putt better
Speaker 1: to it's it's just great being around and go all right,
Speaker 1: I'll tell you something I've never told anybody else. Now
Speaker 1: here's what I do out of the rough. I actually
Speaker 1: swing slower than my normal swing, so the grass has
Speaker 1: time to part out of the way, so the club
Speaker 1: will hit the back of the ball. Whatever. And you
Speaker 1: hear these things and you're like, Okay, we're going to
Speaker 1: go try that as soon as we're off the course.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: That's where the secrets come out.
Speaker 3: Yep, yep. A lot of fun, as is having a
Speaker 3: conversation with you, my friend. I really really appreciate you
Speaker 3: coming back on and helping us celebrate episode one thousand
Speaker 3: coming up, and being part of our cavalcade of creative
Speaker 3: geniuses who we get to pick the brains of Joe Hallett.
Speaker 3: You're my hero.
Speaker 1: I thank you, man Fred. Anytime you call, I tend
Speaker 1: to pick up the phone. Now sometimes I don't sign
Speaker 1: on in time, but my man, what you do for
Speaker 1: this game. First of all, congrats on the thousand. You're
Speaker 1: off on your journey for the next one thousand and
Speaker 1: if anybody wants to, I mean, the beauty of what
Speaker 1: you do is any player of any level can learn something,
Speaker 1: have fun, have a laugh, and take something to the
Speaker 1: golf course. When they're done, and that is the way
Speaker 1: you get people interested in the game and keep playing.
Speaker 1: You're doing a great job.