Speaker 1: Hi.
Speaker 2: My name is Josel and Anti and I'm from Pedaluma
and I play at Rooster Run Golf Course in Pedluma, California.
This is Golf Smarter episode nine hundred and ninety nine.
Speaker 1: Rick Martine told me years and years ago and when
PGA down at their Port Saint Lucy complex built the
Die Preserve, he got to spend a lot of time
with Pete and Alice Dye. And he goes, I never
really knew this, but once they get the routing done,
they build every hole from the green backwards. So he goes,
if you really want to learn how to play a hole,
go stand on the green and look backwards, and you
will figure out where you need to hit in from
to make the ball hold the green, to make the
ball have your best release, to be able to get
flags to go for other places. And once you figure
out where that is, then you walk backwards to that
spot and you go, well, clearly, I should be teeing
off on the right side of the tee so that
it opens up the fairway for me. I don't know
if great players do that on tour, but I do
know that most of the caddies I see out there
pre walking the course, are walking the exact opposite direction
of where we're going, and they look at it that way.
Speaker 3: How to read golf courses from green to tea to
maximize your game Their old friend Joe Howett.
Speaker 1: This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights from
great golf minds to help you lower your score and
raise your golf IQ.
Speaker 3: Here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome back to the Golf
Smarter podcast.
Speaker 1: Joe, Fred, it's great to see you again. And I
know you're on the road to one thousand, and you
know you got to have a speed bump along the way,
so thanks for taking me in there towards the ultimate goal.
I don't want to slow you down on your charge.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, this is not a speed bump at all.
This is a celebration. Coming up to episode one thousand
is just mind blowing to me. And I really wanted
to feature and focus on the people who I think
made this podcast great. And you definitely get to be
in the very highest slot here at nine ninety nine.
Speaker 1: You know, if you look that upside down, that might
feel how some players feel about their instructor. Six sixty six.
You're making me do things I can't do well.
Speaker 3: Actually, episode six hundred and sixty six was with golf
course architect Trip Davis.
Speaker 1: Well, that is kind of the Antichrist if you think
about it. Those golf course architects sneak little troubles and
tribulations in there.
Speaker 3: Do you do you love golf course design or does
it frustrate you?
Speaker 1: Well, that's a really good question, and I do love
golf course design. And I think all of a sudden
you're seeing, you know, like the gil Hons's that are
out there, and you got the bo Wellings, and you're
seeing a lot of golf courses that are designed that
are essentially equal, logically friendly, very easy to maintain, and
most important and some of Tiger's new courses they're very playable.
I think we've gotten that. You know, Pete Pete Die
sort of stuck the golden key in there and open
a door and go, what if we make up our
three that's surrounded by water? And then everybody else said
I can make it harder than that. And now the
operators of the golf course have kind of come back
and said, well, we like that, but there's a delay
on the twelfth hole that is making everybody play this
course in six hours, So how do we make this
a little more friendly? And I do love looking at
golf course design because you know from a coaching or
a playing standpoint, and you know that too, Fred. You
get up there and you go, what the world were
they thinking? Or Wow, this is a great golf hole
and look at all we're not even designers, and you
can kind of go, look at all the different whole
locations you can have here. Look at you could take
a risk and play this way, and you could play
it safe, play that way. And then you get to
those other holes and you go, oh, dynamite. That's all
this whole needs. Is just some dynamite. They should start
over on that one. It's it's and I think there's
a level of play where Fred, you and I would
look at it and go, it's not because I can't
play the whole great. It's because the only person who
can play the whole great is either Rory McElroy, Jack
Nicholas or Ben Hogan, you know. And so yeah, golf
course design is fun and when it allows places to
hit the ball for the average players, places for the
better players to take chances, and plenty of spots on
the green. You know, it's great to have tricky, undulating greens,
but when you go over and you look at the
greens over in Scotland and Ireland and England, they're also huge.
And one of the tougher shots in golf is a
really long put and you know, there's nothing to be
said about, oh, this is a huge green. I hit
the green. That don't mean you're making in par That
means you got another tough shot in front of you.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I can't. You know, I've had multiple sixty foot putts.
I kind of you know, I measure out my putts
all the time, and I've had sixty foot putts And
it's like, okay, you're in three putt territory here. You
gotta that's something you really should be working on is
lagging at that distance. But when you get to the
hundred foot putts, it's like, please, can't I have a
wedge here?
Speaker 1: Please? I've never swung a putter this hard and this
fast unless I was really angry.
Speaker 3: Do you have architects that you like, look forward to
playing their courses, that you really appreciate their work?
Speaker 1: You know, honestly, one of them that always stands out
in my mind. I do love kind of the way
gil Hans is letting everything flow around the course, whether
it's in the Carolinas or even out in the Palm
Springs area or gosh, one of his earliest designs and
I'm for getting, oh my gosh, there's a college there
and it's just outside jen and I'm not summer set.
I'll think of it. But Nicholas has his deals. Tom Weiskough.
Anytime I've ever played a weiss Cough course and I've
gotten to maybe the twelfth or thirteenth toll, I'll look
at somebody, go who designed this course? I thought. So
I'm having a really good time and I'm actually scoring
decent and it's kind of tough, So yeah, I thought
he was a great designer. Really, just some hidden gems interesting.
Speaker 3: Interesting. And as an instructor, and especially because you're a
PGA Master instructor and you're coaching at a higher level,
how do you incorporate golf course architecture and design into
your teaching? Because really what we're doing is we're not
playing the golf ball, We're playing the golf course.
Speaker 1: I can't give you away all my secrets, you know.
Speaker 3: Yes, you can, because nobody's listening.
Speaker 1: Honestly, there's two things, and I will. I think all
great instructors realize we've never come up with an original idea.
We've always learned from our peers. Rick Martine told me
years and years ago, and when PGA down at their
Port Saint Lucy complex built the die the die course
down there, the Die Preserve, he got to spend a
lot of time with Pete and Alis Die and he goes,
I never really knew this, but basically, once they get
the routing done, they build every hole from the green backwards.
So he goes, if you really want to learn how
to play a hole, go stand on the green and
look backwards, and you will figure out where you need
to hit in from to make the ball hold the green,
to make the ball have your best release, to be
able to get flags to go for other places. And
once you figure out where that is, then you walk
backwards to that spot and you go, well, clearly, I
should be teeing off on the right side of the
tee so that it opens up the fairway for me.
I don't know if great players do that on tour,
but I do know that most of the caddies I
see out there pre walking the course are walking the
exact opposite direction of where we're going, and they look
at it that way, and that's one big thing, so
kind of thinking of the way you're going to play
it from the green backwards. And then Gail Peterson, who
is an amazing, amazing I mean he's a Hall of
Fame instructor, top one hundred, top fifty, Bennett Sea Island
for however many years. She sat down with me one
afternoon in Kingsville and she got a beverage napkin tells
you where we were sitting, and she goes, I learned
this from Moe Pickens, and she goes, this is what
players need to do when they get to a golf tournament.
And he said, start with the obvious. A seven iron
off of a flat lie is a seven iron off
of a flat lie. Whether you're in Boise, Texas, New Hampshire,
or Florida, the range, the course, it doesn't make any difference.
That's a waste of your time. When you get to
the tee, find your line on the tee. That gives
you the ability to not run out a room and
have the widest area to hit two. I think Scott
Fawcett a decade would tell you that in two seconds,
you know, find your widest area. And for a good player,
make sure you don't run out of room. And I'm
telling you as a coach when you say don't run
out of room, this is very important. When you're in competition,
you are moving faster and you are hitting the ball further.
So if you go, oh, that's two seventy there, I'll
never reach it. Baloney, you will hit that. I guarantee
you you will hit that unless you hit an off shot.
So not running out of room. Give yourself twenty yards,
not just ten yards, all right, So that's one the
speed of the greens. You got to know that. Find
out what the sand is like, because the sand is
different on every course. You might not always be using
your sand. If the sand is more beach like, or
if it's firmer, or if it's two or stand and
it's perfect. You could hit a one iron out of there,
probably if you still had one. So you gotta know
what the sand is like. And the last thing is
kind of interesting. Rough is rough, and you're gonna know
in two seconds the most club you can hit out
of there, Okay, find out the grass, the longer grass
that's around the green, and find out how the ball
will react when it rolls in there or bounces in there.
Is gonna is it gonna hang on top of the grass,
Is it gonna go halfway down the grass, or it
was gonna go all the way down to the bottom
of the grass. Learn those shots and learn what clubs
you need. So in terms of course design, find your
line off the tee, figure out what the bunkers the
sand is, get the speed of the greens, and then
find out what that longer grass around the green and
how the ball is going to be sitting, and learn
how to have your shot around there. And when you
go watch the professionals practice, you can see you can
see them back there on the tee. They're caddy and
then there they got their sheet out and they're drawing lines.
That's exactly what's happening off the tee. Maybe every fourth
hole or so, they'll hit a ball out of a
green side bunker to make sure that the sands are
consistent the putting green and the regular green. They spend
hours on there, and then they'll take a couple of
golf balls. Sometimes they'll they'll hit a good shot up there,
and their cady'll just take three golf balls and toss
them over there and go, Okay, let's hit those and
see see how it works. It's very efficient and you
learn so much because those are the things that are
different on every course you play, and every designer will
have their own little spin on it.
Speaker 3: Okay, my mind is completely blown. That was so helpful
for anybody at any level to have that. Now, of course,
it's difficult to walk a course backwards when you're playing
public golf or you know. I mean, if you have
a country club, great, I'm sure you'll find times on
Monday to be able to go walk your course backwards,
but usually it's not the easiest thing to do. So,
if I guess, the suggestion would be that make sure
when you get to the green, of of course you're playing,
turn around and look back so that the next time
you're there.
Speaker 1: What do you think that's absolutely perfect? You know, And
I've been around enough players throughout my career that they
do get to the green and then they look back
and they go, maybe we should try and carry that bunker.
That's a way better line. And if we're down wind.
We're definitely going to take it over that bunker. It
opens up way down here, so that's a huge suggestion.
And then move along, please, yeah.
Speaker 3: Right, don't stand there drawing pictures on the green and
take your scorecard off the green, leave the area, open
it up, then write down your scores. Don't do it
on the green.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, So I have to tell you a
fast story. But this is the best part about spending
time with you. We always we start out with topics
that we get way off tnded, but we have love topics.
Speaker 3: And we were there's no way we're going to get
to all of them.
Speaker 1: I just know it, Like, don't stand there and draw pictures.
Of course, you have yardage books. There was a young
lady years and years ago that played the tour, Stacy Pramanasud,
and she went out there I think two times, maybe three,
And if I'm not incorrect in my story, I believe
it was her father who was caddying for her. And
as I said, you know, they all have the little
yardage books, and I happened to and I will tell
you very humbly, I was caddying for a young lady
who I was helping a long name, NB Park, so
she could have picked a better caddy. Anybody who's middle
aged with bad feet and add is not a good choice.
I can tell you that right away.
Speaker 3: Each other.
Speaker 1: So Stacy's dad has this book and I happen to
kind of walk by him and he's over on the
side of the green and I'm like, oh, good lord,
he's drawing out the entire greed. I mean, he must
have been a courtroom sketch artist at one point in
his life, because I'm watching this san and it came
together in like thirty seconds. He's got the he she
gives him the club. He walks over to the next tee.
He's got all the ridges and everything does. And I'm like,
you guys need to frame these and sign them. They
are unbelievable. And he's like, uh, sometimes we like the
way we do it better. But never delayed play at all.
And I was like, I was like, those are works
of art, my man. That is just awesome. But today,
obviously we have all kinds of topographical maps that we
can pull down from anything. So but it's that was
old school to a tea and it was a gorgeous
work of art.
Speaker 3: That's awesome story. Thank you. You know, one of the
things that kind of has rattled in my head for years,
and I would love to have this disputed because it's
probably not right. But I've always felt like the USGA,
the governing bodies, let's just say, are advocate it's for
the golf course more than they're an advocate for the golfer.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: The goal is, the goal is to make the golf
courses difficult as it can be for every golfer at
every level, right, And so they're more concerned about make
you know, as opposed to when you talk about growing
the game, it's not about the people, it's about the property.
Speaker 1: Night out. I always and let me tell you, I
think Mike Wan, who is obviously the executive director of
the USJA and did so much great stuff with the
LPGA and making that tour become an accessible and exciting tour,
I think little by little he's doing that with the USDA.
But I think I think I was chatting with a
caddy once and I said, and he and I were laughing,
and he said something about it. He said, boy, if
the USDA was in charge at NASCAR, it seems like
they'd sneak in and under inflate a few of the
tires on the guy's card. Yeah, and they'd probably nicked
the brake line. While they're at it. They go, let's
see how you boys do on this oval today. But
it is they are advocates of the golf course, and
much to their defense, it is the one week a
year if you take out the you know, you're British
and Scottish and Irish and all those type opens where
you have weather that you will never deal with based
on tour schedules. So you've got that. But it's going
to be one of the toughest tests of golf. And
I know it's tough on the players, but it's really
a way to go. Okay, you guys are the hundred
best we've seen. You hit your wedges closer than anybody
because you go with every flag, You hit your driver
further and everybody, and you're tremendous putters. Let's see if
you can adapt to a facility or a course that
doesn't set up for that. And that is a week
where the champions a lot of times you go, God,
that person came out of nowhere. How did they do
that good? And they go, well, they adapted and the
other ones that are you know, it's that big ego going,
I will beat this golf course and you're going, no,
first you got to befriend the golf course and go
could you give me a little little birdie here on six? Maybe?
And well, so it's there are they're advocates for the game,
and I think the beauty of what they do is
remind us all that this game every day is about adjusting.
It's not about overpowering. Some days you're going to play
in cold weather. Some days you're going to play and win.
Some days you're going to And if you just think
you can have one set of skills that's going to
withstand all those. It's not if you hit a high
ball and it's a windy day, you're going to struggle.
If you hit a low ball and you're playing in
a USGA event, it's not going to stop on the green. So,
in a very interesting way, it forces even the best
players of the world to maybe learn an added skill set.
And of course, you know the beauty of a guy
like Jack Nicholas is he could work the ball both directions.
He could do whatever he wanted to do with the ball.
He could hit it high, he can hit it low.
And you find a player that can do that, and
you got somebody, and then you get someone like Bryson
who says, if I can hit it far enough, we
all know how long the rough is. I got a
sand wedge coming out of there. That's what I was
going to hit from one eighty. I might as well
be at one to twenty and see how I can
get it to the creen. But again, that's not overpowering
the USGA. That's going I found a different way to adapt.
So it's a love and hate relationship I think with
the players. And I'm going to tell you on the
coaches side, Fred, you haven't lived till you're walking around
the USGA US Open setup and a player goes, what
in the world do I do from here? I'm going,
I knew I should have stayed at a holiday and
express last night.
Speaker 3: So we did a an episode recently with Terry Kaylor
and we talked about how the amateur golf game, you know,
because what you're talking about is for one weekend a
year for very few select golfers, but golf courses have
to survive all year long, right, and that they the
pros literally play a different course than we play, even
if we get to the opportunity to play on that
same course. And the sense that they hit driver wedge
right the only thing they hit longer. I think he
even gave a statistic about Dustin Johnson hitting a seven
iron once in one season on his approach shot. Is
that the only reason they're hitting something more than a
seven iron is because they're going for a part five
and two right. They're usually hitting just wedges. Well, we're
hitting hybrids, we're hitting you know, long irons, We're hitting
three woods and five woods for our approach shots. Our
game is much harder than their game. Yes, you're laughing
at me again.
Speaker 1: No I'm not. I'm I'm agreeing with you and and
all of us as we as we change our hair color,
the swing speed we used to have we don't have,
and that can facilitate equipment changes so that the ball
will come in in what's known as a playable trajectory.
You know, you don't want it coming in like a
B one bomber, stating across the top of the green
and expecting it to stop. If that's your if that's
your flight plan, you might want to leave the flag
in no matter where you are and hope that it
runs into it. But we are playing a different game
than they are. And from that standpoint, if you, I
think just to throw the USGA in there again. The
year that they had the twin US Opens at Pinehurst,
everybody was scratching their head, going how are they going
to pull this off? And when you realize that on
the fourteenth hole, or the twelfth hole, or the seventh hole,
that if the ladies had a seven or eight iron in,
the men also had a seven or eight iron into
that hole. And that becomes very much for the average player.
And I think golf courses are doing a better job
of this right now. Play the ts that will allow
you to hit in and approach shot that is in
your scoring iron range, maybe six, seven or eight iron,
and that's the minute you get that. It's kind of
like looking at every hole and subtracting one fifty five
and going how far do I have to hit it
off the tee? Oh my gosh. If we play these,
I got to hit the shortest drive. I have to
hit us two to seventy. The rest of them are
three hundred. Yeah, I get it, forget it. And that's
let me tell you something. There's there's a pride thing
that you want to go back and play the tips.
If you want to play the tips, play one of
the par fives from the tips, play one of the
par threes from the tips, and play one of the
shorter par fours from the tips, because if you play
the long par four from the tip, you're just playing
another part five, right.
Speaker 3: Literally, that's a great suggestion, and any suggestion.
Speaker 1: If you're going to do that, Gosh, this game can
be fun.
Speaker 3: The game is so much more fun when you're scoring well.
I can't believe how you frustrated. I've been with golf
over the years. But when I was able to and
I'm not doing it now, but when I was able
to hit you know, a couple of rounds in the
upper seventies, it was like, Wow, that was fun. That's
you know, that's when we get back into talking about
the zone and the flow state. That was fun because
it was just easy today. Yeah, I wasn't thinking about
all those things.
Speaker 1: And when you're hitting those scoring irons in it doesn't
take long to notice, Wow, this is where I need
some work. Either you're hitting the fairway and missing the
green or you're missing the fairway and missing the green.
You either got to work in your t shot or
your rights. But if you're having to reach for maximum
distance on every shot, you don't know where to work.
All you know is you've got to hit the ball further,
and that generally is not a great recipe for getting better.
Speaker 3: So interesting that, you know, before we started, you had
a couple of topics that you suggested that we talk about,
and you just led into one of them as we
talk about equipment changes and playing wedges into the green whatnot,
and you suggested that maybe we need to talk about
these specialty wedges and what they're not telling you, who's
not telling us? What are they not saying?
Speaker 1: So this sounds like a big teaser, and it's like, uh.
Speaker 3: Oh, totally is fred what you said to me.
Speaker 1: You're going to put this out there and then my
friends are going to go, Hall, it said something stupid
again and they're going to go, what's what's so unusual
about that? Joey? You know what? Honestly, and I'm gonna
tell you, and I even I was even chatting with
my better half on this and she goes, yeah, it
usually takes you guys a couple of years to figure
out what's going on. She's like, but when you're in
the background. So I've watched this phenomenon that's been going on,
and it's very prevalent with college golfers. These are young
kids that have great swing speeds. And I'm so speaking
both on the men's team and the ladies team college golf,
and over the past two years for certain, maybe a
little longer. All of a sudden, I keep going, I
keep hearing the same comment, and like, there's something going
on there, and I know it with my game, but
I'm going, I don't play as much as I used to.
I probably don't have a swing speed. So and one
of them that comes out a ton is like you
hear a twenty year old kid go, I don't get it,
you know. And all the college kids they always have
the latest equipment and everything else, right, they're always up
to they take care of the teams, and they go,
I just don't get it. I used to hit this
fifty six degree wedge one twenty. I can't hit it
over one oh five anymore. Still a fifty six degree wedge,
still whatever, And I'm hearing the same comment from the
young ladies on the university teams, and they're like, you know,
fifty six used to be my go to at one
hundred to one hundred and three yards. I can't get
it over ninety five anymore.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. I have a sound effect for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, lah lah, Charlie Roan's teacher now. And I know
you've had some of the greatest, some of the greatest
short game guys in the business, like James Siekman and
Stan Utley, and you know they would kind of go, well,
first of all, if you're trying to hit your wedge
full out, you've got a problem, I mean, because you
deserve every evil that's about to come your way. But
I went to I went the other route, and I said,
I'm going to go to an authority on this. So
there is a tremendously gifted instructor up at Caves Valley
named Bernie Najar, and Bernie happens to teach a guy
named Kyle Berkshire. If you don't know who Kyle is,
he is the world long drive champion, the kid with
the long hair and the mullet, the five time champion.
And I tell right, yes, exactly, And I said, Bernie
I have a question that I'm sure you have run
into because a lot of the guys you teach. Now
he teaches tour players. And he said, a lot of
the guys you teach. And I said, here's my question.
I just posed it. I said, I keep hearing this comment.
Is it me? Or are these boutique and specialty wedges?
You know, you got Titleist Volk, the Cleveland with Callaway,
you got the Glides with the ping, these great wedges
that we have now are they going shorter than they
used to? Bernie sends back, and I know, figuratively, I'm
gonna grab my phone and find the message. But it
was the greatest response I've ever seen. Interesting question. I'll
get back to you in a second. It comes back
the first line. First of all, wedges are for losers.
They should drive the grain. And he said, no, what's
happened on these wedges? The sixty degrees, the fifty eights,
the fifty six is fifty four, it's fifty Two's is
they are coming up with so many different soul configurations
and heel relief and toe relief and different shavings that
the center of gravity on those clubs keeps getting a
little higher and higher, and that center of gravity starts
pushing the club more under the ball. So when a
player tries to swing that club faster and hit it further,
it actually gets more spend, goes higher and shorter. But
around the green you can operate that club at a
much slower swing speed. And now you see these guys
and ladies out there hit these chip shots and you're like,
how in the world do they get that ball to
stop downhill lot of long grass on a downhill green.
That's impossible. So the design of these wedges has become
one where at a slower speed around the green or
in your twenty thirty forty fifty yard shot where you're
not swinging full, they're phenomenal, but the overall distance on
those when you try and crank it up to your
full swing and normal swing, it's not going where it
should be. Now, Bernie ended that and saying, if you
look at some of the senior tour players, they are
still playing wedges from three to four years ago. They're
just getting them regrooved every year because of the waiting,
they can use that extra distance. And Bernie's last sentence said,
if you wanted a suggestion, for a player like that,
I would get the gap wedge that goes with the set,
you know, and sometimes it's an a wedge, and sometimes
it says G on it, And as fate would have it,
the very next day after that, I was in College Station, Texas,
standing on the tee with Stacy Lewis. She had just
come from a fitting at her club supplier as Mizuno,
and she said, I got a distance I can't hit,
and they're having trouble dialing these wedges in because they're
not going as far anymore. She said, So I put
this in the bag. What do you think? She pulled
out the gap wedge exactly as Bert and I took
a picture of it, and I said, Bernie, did you
two guys talk before I got here? But I'm telling
you that from the player that is maybe kind of
the more athletic player doesn't have to be the college player.
But if you like to go after that wedge, give
that gap wedge that matches your set of clubs, give
that another look. When you first got it, you probably
got your wedges and everything, and you put that guy
over in the garage, and little by little it's time
to move the backup quarterback off of the bench and
put him near the sidelines and let him take a
look at what's going on.
Speaker 3: It's interesting to say that because I've been playing PXG
clubs for about a year and it came with a
gap and a pitching wedge, and I have found that
I can really get a lot. I don't have to
have a distance to pull out that gap wedge. Sometimes
I choke up and I can knock ten yards off
of it, right. Sometimes I use it as not necessarily
a putting stroke. But if I just need to keep
it along the ground, you know, keep it low and
let it roll up, I can do that from forty
five fifty yards.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: But what about like these boutique wedges, these companies, you know,
like we're talking about Terry Kaylor and Edison Golf, and
you know he comes up with lots of soul designs
and whatnot makes his clubs unique. Can those boutique companies,
can they compete with the vokies in the Cleveland's?
Speaker 1: Can they?
Speaker 3: And are they of value to the average golfer? Oh,
I was talking about the amateur golfer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I definitely think so. And for the amateur golfer,
there's two things that you know. There is physics of
the golf club and you can't argue with those literally,
and there's physics of the driver and you can't argue
with those. So that boutique wedge that you're going to
look at, here's here's your two criteria. Number One, use
them at controlled swing speeds, not full out. Doesn't have
to be slow, but controlled swing speeds. And two, but
I'm being honest about this, if it's a cool looking
club and you go, God, I love the way this
wedge looks, then dog on it. Stick it in your bag,
because you're now you're dying to get to that spot
to use the wedge. And that's the same spot used
to go, oh god, I'm here again on fifteen. I
hate this serially. At least if you have a club
in front of you and you go, I really like
the way this thing looks. Controlled swing speed looks good. Look,
the grooves are going to be fine, the bounce is
going to be fine on it. That's stuff you can
find through any manufacturer, any fitting. But there's an area
for those boutique wedges, just like there is potters. We
talked about lab golf a little bit earlier, and you know,
it's it's what meets what meets the eye as a
big confidence builder. You know, you and I have had
to go to things in our careers and we've gone
and we've had to put on a coat and tie
and you get halfway out the door and you go,
I look like an idiot in this tie. Take the
tie off and put a better tie on. Then you
feel better and you have a little more confidence.
Speaker 3: But I'm only laughing because yeah, I really relate to that.
Speaker 1: You never I returned the tie I had to wear
once I got to regifted it. Let's let's be honest, all.
Speaker 3: Right, Let's change topics for a little bit, because I'm
really interested to get your impression of something that I've
talked a lot about this year. And it's not it's
weird because I don't I brag about the fact that
I don't talk about the PGA or the LPGA tour.
I have to say LPGA because you're here. But uh,
I don't like talking about it because it's old news
by the time a podcast comes out. But I was
really enamored with TGL this year. I thought it was
a lot of fun. I thought that it could be
the future of how we do golf. I loved listening
to these guys talk with each other, strategize with each other,
you know, give each other a hard time.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: I thought it was a blast and two hours of golf.
Any Yes, I love it. How did you feel about
TGL this year?
Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan, I really am. I just yeah.
And Fred, you've talked enough about it with your friends too,
and I guarantee you the one within two sentences or
three sentences anytime somebody talks about it. I love the
shot clock. That's I mean there, it is right there,
and it's beautiful. You know. I don't know how you
would ever do it on a live tour event, but
you know, at some point it would almost behoove to
have that forty five second shot clock behind the green
to go, dude, that guy's taking a minute and a half.
And then you look at the official timing and you're like,
he's been checking his emails for the last forty five seconds. Oh,
let me start the buzzer, you know, so.
Speaker 4: And then all of a sudden, boom boo boom, yeah
boo boom boo boom, and it's it's kind of like
I it's so latable today because so many people and
the affordability of the technologies and the launch monitors and
the home simulators and the net.
Speaker 1: I mean, people can do this in their house and
they can kind of play the same. And you know,
if you grow this thing out, you go, well, you
have your TGL leagues, but now you have your amateur leagues,
and now you can get into sort of a bracket
division and go the people that when the Southeast Division
are going to be part of the TGL Championship and
maybe the amateurs take on the pros. And I mean,
I love it. It's it simulates golf, but it simulates
the strategy, It simulates the pressure that they're under with
the time clock. It simulates the camaraderie in this game,
and it's you know, it's but you don't have.
Speaker 3: In tournament play because everyone's on their own island, right,
But here you have team golf, which we know team
golf works. Yes, between Ryder Cup and you know, President,
we know it works.
Speaker 1: I I just I can't wait to see where it
grows too, to be honest with you, because I think
all it's going to do is keep getting better and
better and to have a time limit and go, hey,
I can watch this. Not only that, I can actually
go back and I can. I'm I'm of that age.
So do we still DVR or do we TVO? Or
we way past that? Now?
Speaker 3: We record it?
Speaker 1: We recorded, Yes, that's what I We.
Speaker 3: Don't say videotape anymore. We just record it.
Speaker 1: But then you know, even you know, sometimes you go, oh,
don't tell me what happened in the last round of
the Masters, and then you rewatch it and you're like, Okay,
that's six hours out of my life, and you're trying
to fast forward and TGL You're like, man, this I
can watch this and I can do it quick and
I it's it's so accessible and it's so relatable to
an Okay, there's a gentleman who I call the authority
in the game of golf, and you need to have
him on the podcast once. His name is Tim Briand,
and he is with foresight, and he is the source
of information of nobody I've ever seen. At this point worldwide,
forty four percent of golf is off green grass.
Speaker 3: Tell me that number again, forty four if.
Speaker 1: I'm not incorrect, and I'll tell you what after the
podcast I'll come back and you can put a different
number down there if that's what it was. But it's
so high to think that over forty percent of the
golfers that's probably a better number, are not playing golf
on a golf course. They're at top Golf, They're at Puttshack,
They're at simulator places that are popping up all over
the place. They're at their house, they're playing the World
Golf League and Fred, You and I have a golf
date with Jim and Bob every Thursday night. We are
in our simulator room because we can afford the simulator.
And oh, by the way, this week we are playing
Oakmont and it's you and I best ball against their
alternate shot. I mean, these things are going on all
over the world. So the overall number of golfers is insane,
but how much golf is non golf course golf is amazing,
and that tgl is. I love everything that grows this game, literally,
and I do. I really love top golf. Everybody's like,
do you like it? And I'm like, well, you get
I'm kind of new. I go, well, then make sure
you're on the second floor or higher because every shove
will be airborne regardless of what's happening, right, But sometimes
that's as far as they go because it is fun
to go there. It is fun to hang with your friends.
It's fun to get a little bite to eat and
maybe grab a brew or something and have a few chuckles.
But the number of people that are like, gosh, I'd
like to go try this on a golf course because
it's a different game. But all of a sudden, the
simulator golf and then you see the tgl and you're like, okay,
let's do that. That is just pushing and it's hanging
the biggest it's not a carrot, it's a giant ice
chocolate cupcake. At the end of that stick to peepler
going we are going to take a trip and we
are gonna go play sand Hills, Nebraska, and we're all in,
let's go. And the same people who might not have
played the game four or five years ago but learned
it on a simulator and they get pushed forward there.
Speaker 3: But does it grow the game?
Speaker 1: I think it grows the game, and I also think
that it grows the participation on green grass golf courses.
You do think so, yeah, because you know at some
point you go, oh, my gosh, I had no idea
the hill on this hole was that bad. Yeah, and
then you get that real life tingle and you're like,
oh man, this is insane. I can't I can't believe
we're here. So it it grows.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and it's interesting because you know, is TGL
leading the way and simulator golf or they just like
this is going on and it really represents what is
going on, and now we have a media outlet to
it that people are like, oh, you see, we are
doing that, right, So you think that the future of
simulator golf is the real thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think they opened that can and all of
a sudden they're going, lord yeah, I mean yeah the can.
Speaker 3: Ye I was like, what was that noise you just made?
Speaker 1: But literally, when you go over to Korea, so much
of the golf is played in simulator rooms. I mean,
that is your golf outing because the courses are so
difficult to get on. And all of a sudden they
peered open through that door and you go, my gosh.
People have been doing this all over the world for
the last eight to ten years, and now it's not like,
come on, everybody, let's go. Do I feel like, do
you guys realize how many people have been doing this
for the last six, seven, eight years and it's a
big fan, a huge fan.
Speaker 3: And I think that you know, in the fifties and
sixties it was bowling alleys. I think simulators. I actually
think if you get a room that has simulators and
bowling and maybe even a couple ping pong tables, put
a stage in a bar, we've got a room.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: So do you like on TVL.
Speaker 1: Pain putt and pen paint putt and pins?
Speaker 3: Be careful, yes, exactly. Now do you do you like
on TGL how they're playing courses, you know, holes that
are designed that no one's ever seen before. It's like,
you know, we hear about oh I want to go
play Bethpage Black because that's what the pros. Well, you
can't play that course and you know the way they
play it, right, But this is a course only the
hand selected best players in the world are getting to play.
Do you like that or do you wish you saw
a little bit of pebble, a little bit of Saint Andrews,
a little bit of you know, sawgrass.
Speaker 1: I think in a different way like with TGL and
some of those holes that. I mean, that's another avenue
for the amateur, be it a golfer, an amateur architect
could go, I have an idea for a hole you
guys could play and Fred you and I. I'm surprised
they haven't done this yet, but I want to say,
was his name Lloyd or Loyal Chapman that used to
make the paintings of the insane golf holes, you know,
like the side of the Grand Canyon where it just
dropped and then you know you had the machog. Yeah, yeah,
and so again another avenue that brings more people into
the game and interest to kind of go, hey, why
don't you design a hole? Maybe you can end up
on TGL.
Speaker 3: That's a great idea to open it up for a
design contest. Wow. Yeah again, and it's you know, once
that out there, then you go, how do I How
do I play that golfle on my simulator?
Speaker 1: That looks like so much fun? Right, And maybe it's
not a real golfer in real life, but you go,
I got to play with the pros played.
Speaker 3: There you go? There you go, though, maybe they should
make them available. We had Augie Pisa who designed you know,
he was one of the three designers and he talked
about those assignments. It was great. Do you know since
you were really tapped into the LPGA, do you know
of any women that have been approached that they said, Hey,
we're going to do an LPGA TGL or possibly even
co ed teams. I just think that the what they
can do with different teams now, between co ed, between
the seniors, between you know, bringing in amateurs or not.
I think that there's something that they can do to
make this. It just doesn't have to be one time
of year. It could be. I'm sure ESPN's looking to
expand this because it worked for them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it could definitely be things to do in
the off season. Do I know if anybody has approached
the LPGA. I do not at this point, but I
will tell you this, the comments and the interest from
the ladies out there is like, that would be so
much fun. That would be so much fun, and it's like, oh,
we definitely have to get the team. We've got to
get you know, Lexi Thompson and Maria Fosse for length
off the tee and oh my gosh, you know we
can bring inby Park out of retirement. She's one of
the greatest putters ever and all of a sudden you go,
So the enthusiasm is there on the lady side. And
I've heard that same comment too. It'd be like, wow,
if they could do a co ed thing, it would
be really neat.
Speaker 3: Right, right, Yeah, but less I think for seniors to bring.
You know, it's like, the thing that was beautiful about
seeing Tiger first of all, is that it made him human,
unlike anything we've ever seen. He was having so much fun,
and he was vulnerable, and he made mistakes. We love
to see that, right, But with we're not going to
see Tiger walk seventy two holes again. No, I'm pretty much.
I think everyone can agree that that ship has sailed, unfortunately,
but he can play a TG. He can play it
so far in Florida, right it's around not only around
the corner from his house. But seniors don't have to
have that seventy two holes of walking. They have two
hours of going from this hole, you know, from hitting
over here on the grass to their little funny green.
Speaker 1: Fred, You're an influencer in this business, and the only
thing that's going through my mind right now is they
can definitely have a Wendy's three Tour Challenge on the TGL,
and that was I got to go to those a
couple of years with Stacy Lewis and to talk about
how much fun those players had and how much fun
the spectators had. But it was neat to see the players.
I remember the one year Stacey played with bou Weekley
and Kenny Perry and to just be standing there to
the side and then watch them. You know, Boo is like,
how do you hit that shot? And then Kenny Perry's
coming over and he's like, you know, I found that
as I got older, I changed this a little bit
and that actually gave me more distance on my driver,
changing this in my swing and I'm over there. I
can't write things down past he speaks slower, please, But
what a simplistic idea, but that that was so much
fun for the players. And when you get those, when
you get the co Eds or you bring the seniors in,
every one of those players in the group learns something
from one another. And it isn't just like I got
to hit it longer, or I got a putt better
to it's it's just great being around and go all right,
I'll tell you something I've never told anybody else. Now
here's what I do out of the rough. I actually
swing slower than my normal swing, so the grass has
time to part out of the way, so the club
will hit the back of the ball. Whatever. And you
hear these things and you're like, Okay, we're going to
go try that as soon as we're off the course.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: That's where the secrets come out.
Speaker 3: Yep, yep. A lot of fun, as is having a
conversation with you, my friend. I really really appreciate you
coming back on and helping us celebrate episode one thousand
coming up, and being part of our cavalcade of creative
geniuses who we get to pick the brains of Joe Hallett.
You're my hero.
Speaker 1: I thank you, man Fred. Anytime you call, I tend
to pick up the phone. Now sometimes I don't sign
on in time, but my man, what you do for
this game. First of all, congrats on the thousand. You're
off on your journey for the next one thousand and
if anybody wants to, I mean, the beauty of what
you do is any player of any level can learn something,
have fun, have a laugh, and take something to the
golf course. When they're done, and that is the way
you get people interested in the game and keep playing.
You're doing a great job.