1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Welcome back to thrilling Threads. If you are driving right now, 2 00:00:03,799 --> 00:00:05,280 keep your eyes on the road. But I want you 3 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:08,880 to prepare yourself because today we are pulling on a 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:13,439 thread that might just unravel the entire fabric of your reality. 5 00:00:13,679 --> 00:00:15,279 Speaker 2: Hey, no small claim. 6 00:00:15,359 --> 00:00:17,519 Speaker 1: I know, I know every podcast says this will change 7 00:00:17,519 --> 00:00:21,480 your life. But today we are not talking about productivity 8 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:25,120 hacks or diet tips. We are talking about an existential 9 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:29,000 thriller that is playing out right now inside your own head. 10 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 2: It is good to be back, and you are right 11 00:00:31,039 --> 00:00:33,159 to set the stakes that high. Usually we look at 12 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:37,159 things in the world, you know, history, tech, biology. Today 13 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,920 we are turning the camera around. We are looking directly 14 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:42,320 at the thing that is doing the looking exactly. 15 00:00:42,759 --> 00:00:44,359 Speaker 1: And to kick this off, I want to start with 16 00:00:44,399 --> 00:00:47,000 a hook that has been well, it's been haunting me 17 00:00:47,079 --> 00:00:49,119 since I started prepping for this deep dive. 18 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 2: Oh I'm intrigued. 19 00:00:50,359 --> 00:00:53,399 Speaker 1: I want you, the listener, to imagine for a second 20 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,520 that you are a worm. You are inching through the cool, 21 00:00:56,679 --> 00:00:57,960 damp dirt in a garden. 22 00:00:58,039 --> 00:00:59,000 Speaker 2: Okay with you so far? 23 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: Or if you prefer, imagine you are a vine twisting 24 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,400 around a trellis hunting for sunlight. Now here's the question. 25 00:01:08,079 --> 00:01:09,840 Is there something it feels like to be you? 26 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,519 Speaker 2: Ah? That is the fundamental question, as the philosopher Thomas 27 00:01:13,599 --> 00:01:16,079 Nagel would put it. Is the light on inside the 28 00:01:16,079 --> 00:01:19,200 house or is it just an empty building with automatic sensors? 29 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 1: Right? Are you just a biological robot input dart on, 30 00:01:22,359 --> 00:01:26,280 skin output, wiggle muscle? Is it just data processing without 31 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:27,920 a movie playing inside your head? 32 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,159 Speaker 2: Or is there a tiny, dim, primitive spark of experience? 33 00:01:31,239 --> 00:01:32,760 Is there a you in the worm? 34 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,159 Speaker 1: This brings us to the gateway of what is known 35 00:01:35,159 --> 00:01:39,120 as the hard problem of consciousness. Why does a specific 36 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,959 arrangement of atoms carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen result in. 37 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 2: A feeling why anything at all? Theoretically we could be zombies. 38 00:01:46,239 --> 00:01:48,920 We could walk, talk, eat, and sleep without actually feeling 39 00:01:48,959 --> 00:01:51,480 any of it, but we do feel. The question is why? 40 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: And to help us navigate this absolute mindfield without losing 41 00:01:54,799 --> 00:01:58,120 our minds, or maybe while losing them intentionally, we are 42 00:01:58,159 --> 00:02:00,879 digging into a fascinating stack of material. Today. 43 00:02:00,879 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 2: We have some great guides. 44 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: Our primary guide is an in depth interview with Annika Harris. 45 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:08,759 She's the author of the New York Times bestseller Conscious, 46 00:02:09,319 --> 00:02:11,919 A brief guide to the fundamental mystery of the mind. 47 00:02:12,039 --> 00:02:14,360 And she's the creator of the docuseries lights On. 48 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,319 Speaker 2: We are also pulling heavily from the video titled Science's 49 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,919 Difficult Journey to Try to Understand Consciousness, which was released 50 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:23,199 by Big Think. 51 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 1: And what I appreciate about Annika Harris and why I 52 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:28,520 think she's perfect for this, is that she sits at 53 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,319 this very specific, very difficult intersection. 54 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,879 Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, she is working with neuroscience, philosophy, and physics 55 00:02:36,199 --> 00:02:39,280 trying to get these disciplines which usually hate talking to 56 00:02:39,319 --> 00:02:42,039 each other, to collaborate on the mystery of the mind. 57 00:02:42,199 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. They don't play well in the sandbox together, do they? 58 00:02:44,719 --> 00:02:47,319 Not at all? And that is our mission today. We're 59 00:02:47,319 --> 00:02:51,199 going to try to dismantle your most basic intuitions about reality. 60 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:53,520 We are going to question if you actually have a 61 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,159 self spoiler alert you might not. 62 00:02:56,599 --> 00:02:58,479 Speaker 2: We're also going to ask if you have free will 63 00:02:58,719 --> 00:03:01,840 spoiler alert. It's very complicated, and we. 64 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,599 Speaker 1: Are going to ask if consciousness is actually everywhere like gravity, 65 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:06,840 rather than just something your brain cooks up. 66 00:03:07,039 --> 00:03:09,159 Speaker 2: And I know that sounds radical, right, It sounds almost 67 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:10,039 like mysticism. 68 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:10,439 Speaker 1: It does. 69 00:03:10,599 --> 00:03:13,039 Speaker 2: But as we unpack the source material, you might find 70 00:03:13,039 --> 00:03:16,879 that the radical explanation is actually the most logical one scientifically. 71 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: So let's get into it. Section one. What the heck 72 00:03:20,759 --> 00:03:24,039 are we even talking about? Because when I say consciousness, 73 00:03:24,439 --> 00:03:27,240 I feel like most people imagine complex stuff. 74 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:31,439 Speaker 2: For sure. They think of Hamlet, or solving a math problem, 75 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,120 or worrying about their taxes. 76 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, the internal monologue, the voice in. 77 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 2: Your head, That is the most common misconception. And Harris 78 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,000 clears us up immediately in the interview. She makes a 79 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:42,560 very very sharp distinction. 80 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:43,879 Speaker 1: Okay, when she talks. 81 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,199 Speaker 2: About consciousness, she is not talking about intellect. She is 82 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,280 not talking about linguistic thought or complex planning. 83 00:03:50,599 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: So it's not the smart stuff. I mean, my calculator 84 00:03:53,039 --> 00:03:56,360 is smart in a way, but we aren't asking if 85 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:57,080 it's conscious. 86 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,039 Speaker 2: Precisely, your calculator can do calculus facts than any human, 87 00:04:01,199 --> 00:04:03,199 but we're pretty sure there's nothing it's like to be 88 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:04,199 that calculator. 89 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: It's dark inside the ship, right. 90 00:04:06,479 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 2: So Harris defines consciousness as the bare fact of felt experience. 91 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: Well, let's unpack this felt experience. I want to make 92 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,199 sure we really nail this definition, because everything else, I 93 00:04:19,199 --> 00:04:21,680 mean everything hangs on it. 94 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 2: It does, so think back to that worm example, you 95 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,240 started with. A worm is obviously not writing poetry. Obviously 96 00:04:28,319 --> 00:04:31,000 it isn't contemplating its mortality or wondering if it left 97 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,079 the obanon. But as it moves through the soil, does 98 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,920 it feel the friction of the dirt against its skin? 99 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: Right? Is there a sensation? Is there a qualia? As 100 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:41,759 the philosophers say, exactly? 101 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 2: Does it have an internal drive? A feeling of hunger 102 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,439 that pushes it toward food or a feeling of bad 103 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,279 that pulls it away from a sharp rock? 104 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,199 Speaker 1: So it doesn't need to have the word for hunger. 105 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,319 It just needs the raw feeling. 106 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 2: The raw feeling. If the answer is yes, if there 107 00:04:56,759 --> 00:04:59,279 is any experience happening there, no matter how dim, no 108 00:04:59,319 --> 00:05:02,399 matter how alien to us, then the worm is conscious. 109 00:05:02,519 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: I love that it lowers the bar in a way 110 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,160 that makes the universe feel a lot more crowded. 111 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 2: It does, doesn't it. 112 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,639 Speaker 1: It really reminds me of that famous essay by Thomas Nagel, 113 00:05:10,759 --> 00:05:13,560 What is it Like to Be a bat? Harris brings 114 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,399 this up as a cornerstone at the discussion. 115 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:19,439 Speaker 2: Yes, Nagel's bat is iconic in philosophy. He published that 116 00:05:19,439 --> 00:05:21,680 back in nineteen seventy four, and it is still the 117 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,560 gold standard for explaining the gap between knowing how something 118 00:05:24,639 --> 00:05:26,360 works and knowing what it feels like. 119 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,959 Speaker 1: It's such a perfect example because we can describe a 120 00:05:28,959 --> 00:05:31,639 bat perfectly. We know it's a mammal, we know it flies, 121 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,920 we know it uses sonar. We can dissect it and 122 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:36,199 map every single nerve. 123 00:05:36,399 --> 00:05:39,639 Speaker 2: We can understand the physics of echolocation perfectly. We can 124 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,120 explain how the sound waves bounce off the cave wall, 125 00:05:42,199 --> 00:05:45,240 hit the bat's ears and get processed by the auditory cortex. 126 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:47,519 We can map the neurons firing. 127 00:05:47,639 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: We can have all the data, all of it. 128 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,519 Speaker 2: But Nagel's point, and Harris emphasizes this, is that even 129 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,040 if you have all that data, you still have zero 130 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,319 idea what it feels like to perceive a room through sound. 131 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,439 Speaker 1: None. What is the texture of a chair when perceived 132 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,680 through echoes? What is the color of a moth's fluttering 133 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:06,519 wings and sound? 134 00:06:06,759 --> 00:06:08,519 Speaker 2: We can't even begin to imagine it. And that's the 135 00:06:08,639 --> 00:06:10,160 umweald right, Yes, the. 136 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,959 Speaker 1: German term umwaldt. It refers to the self centered world 137 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,839 of an organism, the specific sensory bubble they live in. 138 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:20,879 Speaker 2: It's such a useful concept. The bat's umwald is built 139 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:25,040 of sound, textures, and echoes. Our umwaldt is built largely 140 00:06:25,079 --> 00:06:28,040 of color and light. A dog's is built on a 141 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,199 universe of smells we can't even. 142 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: Detect, and you just can't translate between them. You can't 143 00:06:33,079 --> 00:06:36,399 explain the experience of the color red to someone who 144 00:06:36,399 --> 00:06:39,480 has been blind from birth. No matter how much you 145 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,639 talk about wavelengths and photon frequencies. 146 00:06:42,199 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: It's impossible. You can give them all the objective facts, 147 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,519 but you can't transmit the subjective experience. 148 00:06:47,759 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: It really highlights that experience is primary. It's the foundation. 149 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,240 You can't engage with the world without it. Harris makes 150 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,879 this point that we can't even imagine living without consciousness 151 00:06:57,959 --> 00:06:59,839 because it's the medium for everything we know. 152 00:07:00,079 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 2: It's like a fish trying to imagine not being in 153 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,560 water exactly. She challenges us to imagine moments without that 154 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,000 internal monologue, you know, to get closer to what this 155 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:09,319 pure consciousness is. 156 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,319 Speaker 1: I tried this earlier today while I was making coffee. 157 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,199 It's actually really hard because my brain just wants to 158 00:07:14,319 --> 00:07:15,079 chatter constantly. 159 00:07:15,079 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 2: Oh it, shut up. 160 00:07:16,279 --> 00:07:18,839 Speaker 1: I'm sitting there trying to have a pure experience of 161 00:07:18,879 --> 00:07:21,240 the steam rising, and my brain is like, am I 162 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,879 doing it? I think of doing it. I'm hungry. Don't 163 00:07:24,879 --> 00:07:25,839 forget to buy milk. 164 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,759 Speaker 2: The narrator is very persistent, but Harris suggests thinking about 165 00:07:30,759 --> 00:07:34,680 an infant, think of a newborn baby. Okay, they feel 166 00:07:34,839 --> 00:07:37,079 pressure on their skin. They don't know the word skin, 167 00:07:37,199 --> 00:07:38,839 they don't know the word of pressure. They don't know 168 00:07:38,839 --> 00:07:41,560 where their body ends. And the blanket begins. But the 169 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,680 feeling is there. That raw sensation is there. 170 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,959 Speaker 1: Or hearing a bell ring before your brain slaps the 171 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,399 label bell on it, there is just the raw sound, 172 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:52,839 the vibration in the air. 173 00:07:52,839 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 2: Or seeing the color grain, just the raw greenness of 174 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:56,759 it before you think that's the color of grass. 175 00:07:56,839 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: Exactly. That raw sensation is consciousness. Thought is just an 176 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,560 add on. Thought is secondary. The experience is the foundation. 177 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:06,959 Speaker 2: And once you strip away the complex thoughts, you realize 178 00:08:06,959 --> 00:08:09,399 that consciousness might be a lot more common than we think. 179 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:13,040 It might not be this exclusive club for big brained mammals. 180 00:08:12,839 --> 00:08:16,279 Speaker 1: Which brings us directly to the hard problem. This is 181 00:08:16,319 --> 00:08:19,639 the term coined by the philosopher David Chalmers, and it 182 00:08:19,639 --> 00:08:22,160 seems to be the wall that science keeps banging its 183 00:08:22,199 --> 00:08:23,120 head against. 184 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 2: It really is. 185 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,639 Speaker 1: But to understand why it's hard, we have to understand 186 00:08:26,639 --> 00:08:28,399 what the so called easy problems are. 187 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,399 Speaker 2: Right, and easy is a bit of a joke here 188 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,720 in neuroscience. The easy problems are things like how does 189 00:08:35,759 --> 00:08:39,480 the eye focus light? How does a neuron fire? How 190 00:08:39,519 --> 00:08:41,919 does the brain distinguish a cat from a dog? 191 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: Those don't sound easy to me. That sounds like a 192 00:08:44,039 --> 00:08:45,000 PhD thesis. 193 00:08:45,039 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 2: They are incredibly complex, but they are solvable through engineering. 194 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,519 They're problems of mechanism. We can, in theory, build a 195 00:08:53,519 --> 00:08:55,000 machine to do them right. 196 00:08:55,159 --> 00:08:58,399 Speaker 1: Your smartphone can focus light, you can process data. It 197 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,000 can even use AI to identif that there's a cat 198 00:09:01,039 --> 00:09:03,000 in your photo. It draws a little box around it 199 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:04,200 and says cat exactly. 200 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,759 Speaker 2: Your phone can label it as a cat. But, and 201 00:09:06,799 --> 00:09:08,720 this is the crux of the hard problem. Does your 202 00:09:08,759 --> 00:09:10,200 phone know it is looking at a cat? 203 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: Is there a movie playing inside the microchip? 204 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,919 Speaker 2: Does the phone enjoy the cuteness of the cat? Does 205 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:16,279 it feel anything at all? 206 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,639 Speaker 1: I certainly hope not. That would make deleting photos really 207 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:20,440 really awkward. 208 00:09:20,639 --> 00:09:23,919 Speaker 2: It would we assume the phone is dark inside, it's 209 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:28,159 processing without feeling. The hard problem as Chalmers defined it 210 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,200 is why aren't we like the phone? Why does our 211 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:32,799 processing feel like anything? 212 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,039 Speaker 1: It is so weird when you stop and think about it. 213 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:41,679 The universe is mostly dead stuff, right, Yeah, atoms, rocks, stars, vacuum. 214 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,960 It's all just physics playing out correct. 215 00:09:44,039 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 2: It's non conscious matter obeying physical laws. 216 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: So how do you take a bunch of dead, non 217 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,759 conscious atoms, carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, arrange them into a brain 218 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,639 and suddenly, poof the lights turn on? Where does the 219 00:09:56,639 --> 00:09:57,440 feeling come from? 220 00:09:57,519 --> 00:10:00,080 Speaker 2: That is a mystery. It's what some philosophers call the 221 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,279 explanatory gap. How does matter get configured to create a subject, 222 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:05,399 to create a point of view? 223 00:10:05,759 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: And Harris poses a very provocative question here in the 224 00:10:08,639 --> 00:10:11,559 Big Think video. She asks, what if we are looking 225 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:13,200 at it the wrong way? What if the whole premise 226 00:10:13,279 --> 00:10:16,480 is wrong exactly? What if consciousness isn't something the brain makes? 227 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:18,279 What if it goes deeper than biology? 228 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 2: This is where it gets really sci fi, and I 229 00:10:20,159 --> 00:10:23,200 absolutely love it. She uses the analogy of gravity. 230 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: It's a great analogy. 231 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 2: Yes, think about gravity. It's a fundamental property of the universe. 232 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,480 It's a field. It pervades everything. 233 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: It's not like the Earth decides to have gravity. 234 00:10:34,279 --> 00:10:37,879 Speaker 2: No mass warps space time, and we call that gravity. 235 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,559 We don't say that a planet creates gravity out of nowhere. 236 00:10:41,879 --> 00:10:44,600 We say the planet interacts with the fundamental field of 237 00:10:44,639 --> 00:10:48,080 gravity that is already there, inherent in the fabric of 238 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:48,840 the cosmos. 239 00:10:49,039 --> 00:10:52,279 Speaker 1: So she's suggesting consciousness might be like that, a fundamental 240 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,759 field that's just part of reality precisely. 241 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,639 Speaker 2: It's a view often linked to a philosophical position called panpsychism, 242 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,360 the idea that consciousness in some extremely basic, primitive form 243 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,320 might be a fundamental property of matter itself. 244 00:11:07,799 --> 00:11:09,799 Speaker 1: So wait, let me get this straight. Are you saying 245 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,639 an electron has a tiny, tiny, tiny bit of experience. 246 00:11:13,279 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 2: Not thoughts, An electron isn't worrying about the stock market 247 00:11:16,399 --> 00:11:18,759 or its place in the universe. Okay, good, But maybe 248 00:11:18,759 --> 00:11:22,360 there is a tiny spark of being a minuscule proto 249 00:11:22,399 --> 00:11:25,360 conscious field associated with it. If this is true, the 250 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:27,759 brain isn't a magical generator of consciousness. 251 00:11:27,799 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: It because more like a receiver then, or an antennae. 252 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,279 Speaker 2: A receiver or a concentrator or an amplifier. It takes 253 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,440 this fundamental property that's everywhere and organizes it, structures it 254 00:11:38,519 --> 00:11:43,200 into the rich three D high definition movie of human life. 255 00:11:43,039 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: That completely shifts the whole picture. It goes from being 256 00:11:46,039 --> 00:11:49,679 a magic trick of the brain abricadabra, here's a feeling, 257 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:51,840 to a fundamental force of nature. 258 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,039 Speaker 2: It reframes the question instead of how does dead matter 259 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:59,440 create consciousness, the question becomes how does consciousness organize itself 260 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,039 into complex forms like us? 261 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 1: And if that's true, if consciousness is fundamental, then it's 262 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:05,639 not just in brains. 263 00:12:06,159 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 2: And that leads us to one of the most surprising 264 00:12:08,799 --> 00:12:12,240 and frankly controversial parts of the source material. We need 265 00:12:12,279 --> 00:12:13,840 to talk about plants. 266 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: Yes, vegetable intelligence. And this is where I started looking 267 00:12:16,279 --> 00:12:18,639 at my salad very very differently. It's hard not to, 268 00:12:18,799 --> 00:12:20,600 but I have to be the skeptic here for a second. 269 00:12:20,639 --> 00:12:24,320 We are talking about plants, no brain, no central nervous system, 270 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:27,600 just you know, cellulose and water. How can we possibly 271 00:12:27,639 --> 00:12:29,000 talk about them being conscious? 272 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,519 Speaker 2: And I am glad you are skeptical. You should be. 273 00:12:31,639 --> 00:12:35,440 This is a very counterintuitive idea, But Harris discusses some 274 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,279 incredible experiments that challenge the idea that you need a 275 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,759 brain to process information or make decisions. 276 00:12:40,879 --> 00:12:43,639 Speaker 1: Oh wait, let's talk about the p seed links. This 277 00:12:43,759 --> 00:12:46,799 experiment just it blew my mind. Yeah, walk us through 278 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:47,360 the setup. 279 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,159 Speaker 2: So this is the Y maze experiment. It's a classic 280 00:12:50,159 --> 00:12:54,159 setup in animal behavior, but applied to plants. Scientists took 281 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,600 pea seedlings and planted their roots in a maze shaped 282 00:12:57,639 --> 00:12:58,440 like the letter Y. 283 00:12:58,759 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: So the root grows down in hits a fork in 284 00:13:00,639 --> 00:13:00,919 the road. 285 00:13:01,039 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 2: Exactly, it hits a fork in the road that has 286 00:13:02,639 --> 00:13:04,919 to decide whether to grow left or right. 287 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,399 Speaker 1: Okay, So normally that would just be random chance right, 288 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,399 fifty to fifty, yeah, or maybe following gravity. 289 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 2: You would think. But then they added a stimulus. In 290 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,519 the first part of the experiment. They put a water 291 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:17,759 source at one end of the Y and the roots, 292 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:20,159 the roots obviously grew toward the water. 293 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:22,919 Speaker 1: Sure, that makes sense, that's just mechanics, right, they can 294 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,879 physically sense the moisture gradient in the soil. Gamp soil 295 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:28,320 feels different to the root tip. 296 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,639 Speaker 2: Right, that's tropism, it's a known mechanism. But then, and 297 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,120 this is the kicker, they removed the water instead, they 298 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,840 just played the sound of running water through a speaker 299 00:13:38,879 --> 00:13:39,919 at one end of the maze. 300 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,639 Speaker 1: Wait, what the plants could hear the water? 301 00:13:42,879 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 2: The roots grew toward the sound. Get out, seriously, seriously, 302 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,279 They perceived the vibration of the water and made a 303 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,279 decision to grow in that direction to ensure their survival. 304 00:13:52,759 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: Okay, but hearing, isn't that just feeling vibrations, like when 305 00:13:56,639 --> 00:13:58,720 you stand next to a big speaker at a concert 306 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,000 and feel the base in your chin. 307 00:14:00,519 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 2: It is exactly like that. They have mechana receptors that 308 00:14:03,279 --> 00:14:07,360 are sensitive to vibration. But here's the thing. They utilize 309 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,360 that sensory data to make a prediction. 310 00:14:09,639 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: Prediction. 311 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,399 Speaker 2: Yes, they bet their energy on the idea that sound 312 00:14:13,399 --> 00:14:17,559 of water equals water. That is information processing. That is 313 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:19,720 a choice based on sensory input. 314 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,559 Speaker 1: That is wild, no ears, no brain, but they're listening 315 00:14:23,679 --> 00:14:24,279 and choosing. 316 00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 2: And it gets even creepier with the daughter vine. 317 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:27,879 Speaker 1: The vampire plant. 318 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 2: Essentially, yes, the daughter vine is a parasite. It looks 319 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:34,919 like a bunch of orange spaghetti. It has no roots 320 00:14:34,919 --> 00:14:37,240 of its own. It can't survive on its own. It 321 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,600 needs to attach to a host plant and suck out 322 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,120 its nutrients. Okay, but it's picky. It has preferences. It 323 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,480 prefers tomato plants over wheat, for example, because tomatoes are 324 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:47,919 a better source of nutrients. 325 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,919 Speaker 1: So how does a vine without eyes or a nose 326 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,759 find a tomato plant from across the garden. 327 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 2: Smell is part of it. They can sense chemical volatiles 328 00:14:57,279 --> 00:14:59,519 in the air. That's been known for a while, but 329 00:14:59,559 --> 00:15:02,039 hair is Eng's recent research showing they can also detect 330 00:15:02,159 --> 00:15:04,039 light waves passing through leaves. 331 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: Whoa explain that? How does that work? 332 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:08,919 Speaker 2: Think about it. When we see a green leaf, we 333 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,919 are seeing the green wavelengths of light that are bouncing 334 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:12,240 off it. 335 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:14,759 Speaker 1: Right. The other colors are absorbed exactly. 336 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 2: But other wavelengths pass through the leaf. The quality of 337 00:15:18,639 --> 00:15:21,639 that light changes depending on the leaf's shape. It's chemistry, 338 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:25,039 how healthy it is. The daughter vine analyzes the light 339 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:26,960 that passes through potential hosts. 340 00:15:27,159 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: It's doing spectroscopy. 341 00:15:28,679 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 2: It's doing complex trigonometry with light waves. It can determine 342 00:15:32,519 --> 00:15:35,000 the shape and distance of the plant based on how 343 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,279 the light is altered. It can tell a good host 344 00:15:37,279 --> 00:15:39,159 from a bad one. 345 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:43,279 Speaker 1: That is calculation. It is analyzing the quality of the host, 346 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,039 and then it grows toward the good host and ignores 347 00:15:46,039 --> 00:15:46,519 the bad one. 348 00:15:46,679 --> 00:15:47,679 Speaker 2: It makes a choice. 349 00:15:47,799 --> 00:15:49,919 Speaker 1: So here's the implication, And I want to ask you 350 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,559 this because you're the expert here. If a plant can 351 00:15:52,639 --> 00:15:56,919 process data, perceive the environment through sound and light, and 352 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,440 make decisions growing left versus growing right, is there a 353 00:16:00,559 --> 00:16:01,480 felt sense there? 354 00:16:01,639 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 2: That is the million dollar question. If we go back 355 00:16:04,639 --> 00:16:07,919 to our definition of consciousness as Baar felt experience, and 356 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,799 we see an organism reacting to sound and light in 357 00:16:10,799 --> 00:16:14,000 a way that looks like desire for water or food, 358 00:16:14,679 --> 00:16:17,440 can we confidently say it's dark inside. 359 00:16:17,519 --> 00:16:20,399 Speaker 1: It sounds crazy to say a salad has feelings. My 360 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,480 brain just rebels against that. But Harris argues that we 361 00:16:23,559 --> 00:16:26,759 only think it's crazy because of our intuition exactly. 362 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 2: And this brings us to a major theme of the interview, 363 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:30,320 the trap of intuition. 364 00:16:30,519 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: We love our intuition, We love our gut feelings. Trust 365 00:16:33,399 --> 00:16:35,120 your gut, right, That's what everyone. 366 00:16:34,759 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 2: Tells you, and evolutionarily, intuition is fantastic. It keeps you alive. 367 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,440 If you are walking down a dark alley and the 368 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,519 hair on the back of your neck stands up, that's 369 00:16:44,559 --> 00:16:48,759 your intuition processing subtle cues, maybe a shadow, a sound 370 00:16:48,799 --> 00:16:52,679 you didn't consciously register, dilated pupils in a stranger's eyes. 371 00:16:53,279 --> 00:16:56,840 It tells you danger. Long before you can logically explain 372 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,399 why it's a survival mechanism. 373 00:16:59,519 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: It's great for avoiding tigers in the tall grass, perfect 374 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:02,639 for that. 375 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 2: But Harris points out that intuition is terrible at physics. 376 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,279 It is terrible at understanding the true nature of reality 377 00:17:09,519 --> 00:17:12,319 when you go beyond the scale of everyday survival. 378 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 1: Give us some examples of where it just completely fails. 379 00:17:15,039 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 2: The classic one. The Earth feels flat. 380 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,559 Speaker 1: It absolutely doesn't looks flat. If I drop a ball, 381 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,480 it falls down, not towards the center of a giant's 382 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,519 spinning sphere. My whole experience. 383 00:17:24,079 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 2: Screams flat exactly. Our intuition screams flat plane. But reality 384 00:17:28,079 --> 00:17:30,480 is a sphere spinning at one thousand miles an hour 385 00:17:30,519 --> 00:17:33,279 in a vacuum. Intuition fails spectacularly. 386 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: Okay, what's another one? 387 00:17:34,599 --> 00:17:37,519 Speaker 2: Or look at solid objects. This table in front of 388 00:17:37,599 --> 00:17:39,680 us feels solid. If I bang my hand on it, 389 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,319 it stops me. My intuition says, this is a continuous 390 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:44,480 solid block of matter. 391 00:17:44,599 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: Oach, Yeah, that sounded solid. 392 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,839 Speaker 2: But physics tells us that the atoms making up that 393 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,759 table are ninety nine point nine nine nine percent empty space. 394 00:17:53,039 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: That number always gets me. 395 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 2: It's mind boggling. If the nucleus of an atom were 396 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,960 a marble on the fifty yard line of a football state, 397 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,759 the electrons would be tiny specks in the highest bleachers. 398 00:18:04,079 --> 00:18:05,440 The rest is empty space. 399 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: So my coffee cup is technically resting on a force 400 00:18:08,759 --> 00:18:12,559 field of electron shells repelling each other. Not a solid object. 401 00:18:12,799 --> 00:18:15,279 Speaker 2: Correct, But if we trusted our intuition, we would never 402 00:18:15,319 --> 00:18:17,759 have discovered atoms. We would just say it's hard, so 403 00:18:17,839 --> 00:18:19,519 it's solid. End of story. 404 00:18:19,759 --> 00:18:22,319 Speaker 1: Or what about germs? For centuries people didn't believe in 405 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,200 germs because we couldn't see them. Our intuition was, if 406 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:26,559 I can't see it, it's not there. 407 00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 2: And millions of people died because of that intuition. Doctors 408 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,039 didn't watch their hands. So Harris applies this consistent failure 409 00:18:33,079 --> 00:18:34,680 of intuition to consciousness. 410 00:18:34,839 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: Okay, so bring it back. 411 00:18:36,039 --> 00:18:39,319 Speaker 2: We have a strong intuition that only things with faces, brains, 412 00:18:39,319 --> 00:18:41,240 and screams are conscious. 413 00:18:41,039 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: Because they look like us, they behave like us. 414 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 2: Right, it's a deep seated biological bias. Just as we 415 00:18:47,279 --> 00:18:50,599 had to accept the counterintuitive truth that the Earth is round, 416 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,400 Harris suggests we are in the middle of a paradigm 417 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,160 shift where we may have to accept the counterintuitive truth 418 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,359 that consciousness might exist without a brain. 419 00:18:58,519 --> 00:19:01,519 Speaker 1: It's the next the world is aund moment, it could be. 420 00:19:02,079 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 2: And she gives two questions to help break this intuition, 421 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,559 to prove that our gut check on consciousness is totally unreliable. 422 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,079 Speaker 1: Okay, let's hear them. Yes. 423 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:15,039 Speaker 2: Question one, is there any external evidence that conclusively proves 424 00:19:15,079 --> 00:19:18,240 consciousness in another being, even another human? 425 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:20,640 Speaker 1: I mean, if I see you smiling, I assume you're happy. 426 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,000 If I pitch you and you scream, I assume you 427 00:19:23,039 --> 00:19:25,319 feel pain. That feels like pretty good evidence, you. 428 00:19:25,279 --> 00:19:29,039 Speaker 2: Assume, But can you prove it? No, you can't. You 429 00:19:29,079 --> 00:19:31,759 can build a robot that smiles, you can program a 430 00:19:31,839 --> 00:19:34,400 character on a screen to scream ouch when you click 431 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,799 on it. That doesn't prove there is a feeling behind it. 432 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: The West World problem, the philosophical zombie exactly. 433 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 2: So the answer to question one is no, we have 434 00:19:43,839 --> 00:19:46,240 no external proof that anyone else is conscious. You just 435 00:19:46,279 --> 00:19:48,839 assume it because they are like you. It's an inference. 436 00:19:49,759 --> 00:19:52,519 Speaker 1: And question two, this one is even weirder. 437 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 2: Question two, is consciousness actually doing anything? Is it driving behavior? 438 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, of course course it is. I feel thirsty, 439 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,599 so I reach from my glass of water. The feeling 440 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,000 drives the action. That's my intuition. 441 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 2: Intuition says yes, absolutely, but neuroscience is starting to say 442 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,200 maybe not. And this is where it gets very strange. 443 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: This is where we get into the illusion of behavior. 444 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,440 And this part really really shook me because we assume 445 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,000 that if something is conscious, it acts conscious, and if 446 00:20:23,039 --> 00:20:25,160 it's acting like a rock, it's not conscious. 447 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,559 Speaker 2: But we know that is false. We have definitive proof that 448 00:20:27,599 --> 00:20:30,200 it's false because of conditions like locked in syndrome. 449 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,799 Speaker 1: She talks about gen Dominique Bobby. He wrote the book 450 00:20:32,839 --> 00:20:34,519 The Diving Bell and the Butterfly. 451 00:20:34,319 --> 00:20:38,839 Speaker 2: An incredible, tragic and beautiful story. Bobby suffered a massive stroke. 452 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,480 He was completely paralyzed. He couldn't speak, couldn't move a finger, 453 00:20:42,559 --> 00:20:43,880 couldn't even breathe on his own. 454 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,119 Speaker 1: So to the outside world, for all intents and purposes, 455 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,000 he looked like a vegetable. He looked lights. 456 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:55,519 Speaker 2: Out, completely unresponsive, but inside his mind was completely intact. 457 00:20:55,559 --> 00:20:58,960 He was fully conscious. He felt, he thought, he remembered, 458 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:00,640 he composed sentence, and. 459 00:21:00,599 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: He wrote his entire memoir. How did he do it? 460 00:21:03,079 --> 00:21:07,599 Speaker 2: By blinking his one working eye, his left eyelid. Someone 461 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,119 would read the alphabet to him over and over, and 462 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:11,960 he would blink when they got to the right letter. 463 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,839 Letter by Edter, he wrote a masterpiece that. 464 00:21:14,839 --> 00:21:17,759 Speaker 1: Is terrifying and inspiring at the same time. But it 465 00:21:17,799 --> 00:21:20,319 proves the point. You can have a rich, complex inner 466 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,640 world with zero external behavior. 467 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:25,079 Speaker 2: Exactly so, just because a rock or a plant isn't 468 00:21:25,079 --> 00:21:28,559 writing memoirs or screaming, it doesn't prove a lack of consciousness. 469 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:32,119 The silence of the outside tells us absolutely nothing about 470 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:33,680 the experience on the inside. 471 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,559 Speaker 1: She also mentions anesthesia awareness, which is my personal nightmare fuel. 472 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 2: It is horrific. It's rare, but it happens. People are 473 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,119 given muscle paralytics but not enough anesthetic. They can't move, 474 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,920 they can't speak, but they are awake and feel the surgery. 475 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 1: I can't even imagine. 476 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 2: It's the ultimate locked in state. They are conscious, but 477 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,119 they cannot behave so the link between consciousness and behavior 478 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:55,799 is broken. 479 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: Okay, let's move away from the nightmares, please. But I 480 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,880 get the point. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 481 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,559 But then she flips it. What about when we do act? 482 00:22:05,759 --> 00:22:08,400 You asked earlier, if consciousness drives the bus, right. 483 00:22:08,279 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 2: The intuition is I see a bear, I feel fear, 484 00:22:11,319 --> 00:22:13,440 and because I feel fear, I run A. 485 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,839 Speaker 1: Then B, then C, cause and effect. The feeling of 486 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:18,160 fear causes the running. 487 00:22:18,319 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 2: But the reality of the biology when they measure it 488 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,799 in the lab is often you see the bear, your 489 00:22:22,799 --> 00:22:26,359 amigdala triggers a response, Your body releases adrenaline, your muscles tense, 490 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,240 you start running, and then your brain registers the conscious 491 00:22:30,279 --> 00:22:31,039 feeling of fear. 492 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,319 Speaker 1: Wait, so the running happens before the feeling or at 493 00:22:34,319 --> 00:22:35,240 the same time. 494 00:22:35,039 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 2: The physical reaction often begins before the conscious awareness of 495 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,359 the emotion fully forms. The conscious feeling is a laggy report. 496 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,279 It's the news anchor reading the script after the event 497 00:22:45,319 --> 00:22:46,599 has already happened on the ground. 498 00:22:46,839 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 1: So my consciousness isn't the driver, it's the passenger screaming 499 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,440 whoa yeah, after the car has already swerved to avoid 500 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:53,920 the poddle. 501 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 2: In many cases of rapid response, Yes, that's a great 502 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,759 way to put it, and Harris talks about the binding 503 00:22:59,799 --> 00:23:04,039 problem to explain this temporal weirdness. She uses the piano example. 504 00:23:04,279 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 1: Right, when you play a piano key, I do this, 505 00:23:07,759 --> 00:23:09,079 It feels instantaneous. 506 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 2: It does. You experience three things simultaneously. It seems you 507 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,160 feel your finger hit the key, you see the key 508 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,240 go down, and you hear the note. It feels like 509 00:23:17,319 --> 00:23:18,519 one single. 510 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: Instant moment, a single now. 511 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,519 Speaker 2: But physics tells us that's impossible. Light travels much much 512 00:23:23,519 --> 00:23:26,640 faster than sound, and the nerve impulses from your finger 513 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,200 travel at a different speed and a different distance up 514 00:23:29,279 --> 00:23:31,680 your arm than the auditory signals from your ear. 515 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,039 Speaker 1: So those three signals arrive at the brain at completely different. 516 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,640 Speaker 2: Times, milliseconds apart, but definitely not at the same time. 517 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,759 Speaker 1: So the brain is editing reality. It's time shifting things. 518 00:23:40,839 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 2: It is post production. The brain holds all the data 519 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,039 in a buffer, waits for all the feeds to come in, 520 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,559 syncs them up, and then presents it to your consciousness 521 00:23:48,599 --> 00:23:49,559 as a live event. 522 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,319 Speaker 1: But we are actually living in a slightly delayed, edited 523 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,000 tape delay of reality. 524 00:23:55,319 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 2: Correct. You are always living in the very recent past. 525 00:23:58,519 --> 00:24:01,759 Your conscious now is actually a split second ago. 526 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: That is deeply, deeply unsettling. 527 00:24:04,319 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 2: It really is. 528 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,039 Speaker 1: Okay, if we can't trust our behavior, and we can't 529 00:24:07,039 --> 00:24:10,400 trust our sense of time, can we at least trust 530 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,079 that we exist. I mean I am here, I am 531 00:24:12,079 --> 00:24:14,240 a self. I am the pilot of this meat suit. 532 00:24:14,759 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 2: Now we arrive at the illusion of self, and this 533 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,440 is perhaps the hardest pill for people to swallow. 534 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,799 Speaker 1: Harris is very careful here, which I appreciate. She says, 535 00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:25,680 there are things that aren't illusions. My history, my body, 536 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,799 my personality, my likes, my dislikes, my autobiography. Those are 537 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:30,559 real patterns. 538 00:24:30,759 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 2: Yes, the story of you is real. The collection of 539 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,559 memories and habits is real. But the illusion is the 540 00:24:36,599 --> 00:24:40,799 feeling that there is a static, solid entity, a little 541 00:24:40,799 --> 00:24:44,440 man behind your eyes that is unchanging and separate from the. 542 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,599 Speaker 1: World, the CEO and the control room of your. 543 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:49,240 Speaker 2: Head exactly that CEO is the illusion. 544 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: She uses the wave analogy, which I found really beautiful 545 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:52,720 and helpful. 546 00:24:53,039 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 2: It is a great analogy. Think of a wave in 547 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,279 the ocean. We look at it, we point to it, 548 00:24:57,319 --> 00:24:59,640 and we say, there is a wave. We can measure 549 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,119 its high, it's speed, it has a name. It's a 550 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:06,359 distinct thing. But is the wave a solid object. 551 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,839 Speaker 1: No, It's just water moving in a particular pattern. 552 00:25:10,039 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 2: Right. It is a process. The water molecules that make 553 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,960 up the wave one second are left behind the next 554 00:25:16,039 --> 00:25:18,279 as the pattern moves on. The wave isn't a thing, 555 00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:21,319 It's a pattern of energy moving through the water. 556 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: And we are the wave. 557 00:25:22,319 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 2: We are the wave. We are a process. We are 558 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:28,440 not static. We are a continuous flow of changing biology, 559 00:25:28,559 --> 00:25:31,759 changing thoughts, changing atoms. You are not the same person 560 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,119 physically or mentally that you were at the start of 561 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:34,880 this sentence. 562 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: My cells have died and been replaced. My neural connections 563 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,480 have shifted, just from listening to you speak exactly. 564 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 2: But we suffer from what you could call change blindness. 565 00:25:43,519 --> 00:25:46,359 We don't notice the constant, subtle changes. So we create 566 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,160 a story of a solid, continuous self. 567 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 1: And there is actual neuroscience behind this. No self idea, right, 568 00:25:53,039 --> 00:25:55,799 it's not just poetry or you know Eastern philosophy. 569 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,039 Speaker 2: Oh absolutely. It centers on a brain network called the 570 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,359 default mode network or DMN. 571 00:26:01,599 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: Okay, what's that. 572 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,079 Speaker 2: This is a network of brain regions that is most 573 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,279 active when we are at rest, not focused on a task. 574 00:26:08,519 --> 00:26:12,400 It's active when we are daydreaming, ruminating, worrying about ourselves, 575 00:26:12,519 --> 00:26:14,400 thinking about the past or future. 576 00:26:14,519 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: So it's the me network. 577 00:26:15,519 --> 00:26:18,039 Speaker 2: It's the me network. When the DMN is loud, the 578 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,759 self feels very solid. I am worried, I want this. 579 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,319 I regret that that's the DMN talking. 580 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,759 Speaker 1: But when does it go quiet in flow states? Yeah? 581 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,680 Speaker 2: Think about when you are an athlete in the zone, 582 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,359 or deeply engast in a video game or playing a 583 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,160 musical instrument. You lose yourself. 584 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: Oh totally, You're just doing there's no internal narrator second 585 00:26:37,759 --> 00:26:39,559 guessing you. You become the action. 586 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 2: The neuroscience shows that in those moments, the DMN goes quiet. 587 00:26:43,799 --> 00:26:47,319 The same thing happens in deep meditation or with certain psychedelics. 588 00:26:47,559 --> 00:26:49,359 And notice the description people use. 589 00:26:49,519 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: They say they feel at one with the universe. 590 00:26:51,799 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 2: They feel the boundaries between themselves and the world dissolve. 591 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: And Harris argues that this feeling, this oneness, is actually 592 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,960 closer to the physical truth than are normal state of feeling. 593 00:27:02,759 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 2: Separate exactly because physically we are continuous with the environment. 594 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:09,680 The feeling of separation is the illusion. 595 00:27:10,079 --> 00:27:13,559 Speaker 1: She has this amazing visual thought experiment. She says, imagine 596 00:27:13,559 --> 00:27:15,400 if we could see air molecules. 597 00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 2: Yes, this is a great one. 598 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: If you could see the air like a thick, swirling soup, 599 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,000 you would see the molecules flowing out of my lungs. 600 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,400 With my breath and directly into yours. You'd see the 601 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,759 sound waves from my voice physically touching your ear drums. 602 00:27:30,839 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 2: You would see that there is no empty space separating us. 603 00:27:33,839 --> 00:27:36,960 We are physically connected to everything around us constantly. The 604 00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:40,240 skin is not a solid wall, It's a permeable membrane, 605 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,039 constantly exchanging matter and energy with the world. 606 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,319 Speaker 1: That is both beautiful and slightly gross about the sharing 607 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,279 breath part, but I totally get it. We aren't isolated, 608 00:27:49,279 --> 00:27:50,759 separate egos. We are part of the soup. 609 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 2: We're just a local thickening of the soup, a temporary pattern. 610 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,039 Speaker 1: A local thickening of the soup. I'm gonna put that 611 00:27:57,079 --> 00:27:59,119 on my business card. I want to sit with that 612 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,759 idea for a second. If we accept that we are 613 00:28:02,799 --> 00:28:06,319 continuous with the universe, just a process of atoms flowing 614 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,160 through a pattern we call a body that has a 615 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,920 really distinct and scary consequence. 616 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 2: I think I know where you're going with this. 617 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: Well, if I am just a process of the universe, 618 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,000 like a wave or a weather pattern. Waves don't decide 619 00:28:20,039 --> 00:28:23,559 to crash, Tornadoes don't choose which house to hit. They 620 00:28:23,599 --> 00:28:24,960 just follow the laws of physics. 621 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 2: And this is the part that makes people really angry, 622 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,799 because if you follow the logic of physics and biology 623 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,839 all the way down, you inevitably run headfirst into the problem. 624 00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:36,319 Speaker 1: Of free will or the illusion of free will. So 625 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:37,799 let's tackle the final boss. 626 00:28:38,119 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 2: Annaka Harris is very gentle about this in her work, 627 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,480 but she's also very firm. She draws a sharp line 628 00:28:43,519 --> 00:28:46,799 between what she calls conscious will and free will. 629 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: What's the difference because to me they sound like the 630 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:50,680 same thing. 631 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 2: She acknowledges that choice exists as a process. Humans weigh options, 632 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,200 We deliberate, even the pea plant weighs options in its 633 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:03,920 own way. Complex decision making is a real biological phenomenon. 634 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,759 Speaker 1: Okay, so I did choose to wear this shirt today. 635 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,359 My brain went through a process, A choice happened. 636 00:29:09,759 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 2: But the illusion is that you, that little pilot, that 637 00:29:13,279 --> 00:29:16,079 separate self in your head, swooped in and made that 638 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,839 choice independently of the laws of physics and the prior 639 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:19,799 state of the universe. 640 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,519 Speaker 1: The illusion is that I could have done otherwise in. 641 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,119 Speaker 2: That exact same atomic configuration, with the exact same brain 642 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,079 chemistry and history leading up to that moment. Yes, the 643 00:29:29,119 --> 00:29:31,359 illusion is that you could have freely chosen. 644 00:29:31,079 --> 00:29:37,079 Speaker 1: Differently, she brings up this twenty thirteen fMRI study that is, frankly, it's. 645 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,759 Speaker 2: Spooky, the outcome prediction study. It's one of many, but 646 00:29:39,799 --> 00:29:41,920 it's a powerful one. They put people in a scanner 647 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,240 and gave them a simple choice, add two numbers or 648 00:29:44,279 --> 00:29:44,960 subtract them. 649 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: A simple binary choice left to right AARB. 650 00:29:47,519 --> 00:29:50,799 Speaker 2: The researchers monitored their brain activity, and they found that 651 00:29:50,839 --> 00:29:53,559 the patterns of activity in the brain predicted the choice 652 00:29:53,599 --> 00:29:57,119 with high accuracy up to four seconds before the participant 653 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,920 felt they had consciously decided four seconds. 654 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,319 Speaker 1: That's an eternity in brain time. One two, three, four. 655 00:30:04,799 --> 00:30:05,920 That's a huge gap. 656 00:30:06,079 --> 00:30:08,839 Speaker 2: It is a massive gap. The brain had already crunched 657 00:30:08,839 --> 00:30:12,279 the data, fired the relevant neurons, and committed to add. 658 00:30:13,039 --> 00:30:15,640 Four seconds later, the conscious mind had the thought, hmm, 659 00:30:16,039 --> 00:30:17,200 I think I'll choose to add. 660 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: So the conscious mind is just taking credit for the 661 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,480 brain's work. It's like the press secretary announcing a decision 662 00:30:23,519 --> 00:30:26,119 the president made an hour ago in a closed room. 663 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,799 Speaker 2: Essentially, the decision bubbles up from the darkness of the unconscious. 664 00:30:30,039 --> 00:30:33,079 You don't make the thought, you witness the thought appearing 665 00:30:33,079 --> 00:30:34,000 in your consciousness. 666 00:30:34,039 --> 00:30:36,319 Speaker 1: She success a little finger lift experiment we can do 667 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,160 right now, and if you're listening, try this. Put your 668 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,799 hand on your lap, decide to lift your index finger 669 00:30:41,839 --> 00:30:45,000 sometime in the next few seconds. Just wait for the impulse, 670 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,200 wait and then lift it. 671 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,799 Speaker 2: And observe closely what happens. Did you command the finger 672 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,480 to move or did the impulse to lift it just 673 00:30:55,799 --> 00:30:58,880 arise on its own. Did you choose when the impulse would. 674 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,039 Speaker 1: Come it just pops up. I didn't say okay on 675 00:31:01,039 --> 00:31:04,960 the cant of three, three to one go, It just happened. 676 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:06,200 It felt like a hiccup of will. 677 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 2: That is the illusion of free will in action. You 678 00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,920 are not the author of your impulses or your thoughts. 679 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,559 They emerge from a complex system you don't control. 680 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,039 Speaker 1: But this leads to what you called an ethical tornado. 681 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,319 If I'm not the author, I'm just a biological robot 682 00:31:20,359 --> 00:31:23,319 reacting to my genetic programming in my environment. Yeah, how 683 00:31:23,359 --> 00:31:25,039 can you blame me for anything? If there is no 684 00:31:25,119 --> 00:31:27,799 free agent? What happens to justice and responsibility? 685 00:31:28,039 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 2: This is where Harris pivots to a very compassionate but 686 00:31:31,519 --> 00:31:35,319 also very logical view. She uses the tornado analogy. 687 00:31:35,559 --> 00:31:38,519 Speaker 1: Right, if a tornado destroys your house. Are you angry 688 00:31:38,519 --> 00:31:39,160 at the tornado? 689 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,119 Speaker 2: You might be devastated, you might grieve the loss of 690 00:31:42,119 --> 00:31:44,359 your home, but you don't hate the tornado. You don't 691 00:31:44,359 --> 00:31:46,359 want to punish the tornado because it's evil. 692 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: You don't think it had a choice. 693 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,599 Speaker 2: You understand it is a weather pattern behaving according to 694 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,640 the laws of physics. It couldn't have done otherwise. Harris 695 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,680 suggests we view humans the same way. 696 00:31:57,039 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: So if someone commits a crime, they. 697 00:31:59,079 --> 00:32:02,799 Speaker 2: Are like a dangerweather pattern, or a better analogy might 698 00:32:02,839 --> 00:32:06,359 be they are a computer running broken software. 699 00:32:05,799 --> 00:32:08,039 Speaker 1: So we still stop them. We put them in prison 700 00:32:08,079 --> 00:32:11,119 to protect society, just like we build storm shelters to 701 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:12,400 protect ourselves from tornado. 702 00:32:12,559 --> 00:32:16,319 Speaker 2: Yes, you absolutely contain the tornado. You fix the broken 703 00:32:16,359 --> 00:32:20,359 software if you can through rehabilitation. But you drop the hatred, 704 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,319 You drop the retributive, moralizing desire to make them suffer 705 00:32:24,799 --> 00:32:26,039 just for the sake of suffering. 706 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,319 Speaker 1: It changes the conversation from you are a bad person 707 00:32:29,359 --> 00:32:32,640 who deserves to be punished to you are a person 708 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,680 with bad programming or bad brain chemistry, and you are 709 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,240 a danger that needs to be managed. 710 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,119 Speaker 2: It's a much more clinical, but also a more humane 711 00:32:40,279 --> 00:32:43,240 way to look at human error and harmful behavior. It 712 00:32:43,279 --> 00:32:47,079 removes the ego and the satisfying but ultimately illogical feeling 713 00:32:47,079 --> 00:32:49,519 of blame from the equation of justice. 714 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:55,279 Speaker 1: Wow, okay, we have dismantled pretty much everything self will reality. 715 00:32:55,599 --> 00:32:57,920 Where does this leave us? What do we do with this? 716 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,119 Harris ends with some speculation on the future. She calls 717 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:02,880 it experiential science. 718 00:33:03,039 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 2: This is her wildest, most far out idea, but it 719 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:10,039 flows logically from everything else. If consciousness is fundamental, and 720 00:33:10,079 --> 00:33:13,440 if the boundaries between us are illusions, could we one 721 00:33:13,519 --> 00:33:15,920 day share subjective experiences like. 722 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,559 Speaker 1: Actually beam a thought or a feeling from my brain 723 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,960 directly to yours, a mind meld. 724 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,759 Speaker 2: Not just the words. Imagine if Einstein could have beamed 725 00:33:23,759 --> 00:33:27,000 his intuition of space time directly into your brain, not 726 00:33:27,119 --> 00:33:31,279 the math, not the equations, the actual feeling of understanding relativity. 727 00:33:31,359 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: That would change everything, education, communication, empathy. If I could 728 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,799 feel your pain literally, not just sympathize with it, but 729 00:33:37,839 --> 00:33:40,240 actually feel it, wars would end overnight. 730 00:33:40,319 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 2: It would be the ultimate dissolution of the self, a 731 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:43,160 true connection. 732 00:33:43,519 --> 00:33:46,519 Speaker 1: She ends the interview with this lovely simple story about jogging. 733 00:33:47,319 --> 00:33:49,240 She decided to run a thought experiment. While she was 734 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,839 out for a run in the woods. She decided to 735 00:33:51,839 --> 00:33:55,240 imagine that all the plants she passed weren't plants, but 736 00:33:55,319 --> 00:33:56,480 were animals. 737 00:33:56,839 --> 00:33:58,519 Speaker 2: Like insects or strange creatures. 738 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and just that mental shift, that change in her 739 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,680 belief about them totally changed how the world felt. Suddenly 740 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,240 the forest wasn't just seen or he was alive, It 741 00:34:07,359 --> 00:34:09,440 was watching her. It was full of other subjects. 742 00:34:09,519 --> 00:34:12,199 Speaker 2: It highlights that our experience of the world is largely 743 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,639 a construct of our beliefs and assumptions. Change the belief 744 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:16,679 change the experience. 745 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,320 Speaker 1: So we have gone from worms to waves. Yeah, from 746 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,079 the illusion of the self to the reality of the 747 00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:25,239 pea plant. This has been heavy, but in a good way. 748 00:34:25,519 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 2: You know, it is a lot to process. But I 749 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,800 think the takeaway, if there is one, is that we 750 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,599 are part of something much larger, much more mysterious, and 751 00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:37,039 much more interconnected than our daily intuition tells us. We're 752 00:34:37,039 --> 00:34:39,039 not just a ghost in a machine. We're part of 753 00:34:39,039 --> 00:34:39,840 the whole system. 754 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,760 Speaker 1: Absolutely. So here is our final provocation for you, the listener. 755 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:46,800 The next time you feel angry at someone, maybe someone 756 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:49,559 cuts you off in traffic, or your boss is being 757 00:34:49,599 --> 00:34:54,119 particularly annoying. Stop for just a second, ask yourself, who 758 00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:55,719 is the eye that is angry? 759 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 2: Where is this eye located? 760 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 1: And if you stop telling yourself the story of you 761 00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:04,360 being disrespected, if you just observe the raw feeling of anger, 762 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,800 does it change? Does the anger lose his power and 763 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:08,679 just disappear? 764 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 2: Is the anger a property of a solid self or 765 00:35:12,079 --> 00:35:14,920 is it just a temporary weather pattern passing through the system. 766 00:35:15,159 --> 00:35:17,519 Speaker 1: Mull on that. Let us know in the comments. Do 767 00:35:17,599 --> 00:35:19,960 you feel like a pilot in your life or a passenger? 768 00:35:20,599 --> 00:35:22,039 Are you a wave or a particle? 769 00:35:22,199 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 2: I'm definitely feeling like a wave today. 770 00:35:24,199 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: I think I'm a pea plant listening for the sound 771 00:35:26,079 --> 00:35:30,599 of water. Thank you for listening to thrilling threads. Keep 772 00:35:30,639 --> 00:35:32,639 pulling at reality and see what unravels. 773 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:33,519 Speaker 2: Until next time.