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Speaker 1: Hi everybody, and welcome to the Kylie Cast. I'm Kylie Griswold,

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Managing editor at The Federalist. Please like and subscribe wherever

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I would love to hear from you today. I am

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so excited to welcome to the show, Doctor Carrie Gress.

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Carrie is a wife, a homeschooling mother of five. She's

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a senior contributor to the Federalist, and she is the

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founder and editor of Theology of Home and she's the

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author of ten books, most recently Something Wicked, Why Feminism

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Can't be Fused with Christianity. It is such a good read,

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and I feel at this point compelled to offer a

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trigger warning for our conversation because it's such a hot topic.

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Carrie and I dive into the origins of feminism and

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why first wave feminism is actually just as destructive as

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the subsequent waves, as well as what feminism even is

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and how it's harmed Christian marriages, and how women who

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are Christians but have been seduced by feminism can get

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out of the feminism cult and reclaim a biblical worldview

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of womanhood. That and so much more, without further ado,

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please welcome to the show, Carrie Gress. Carrie Gress, it

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is so great to have you on the Kylie Cast.

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Thank you for joining me today.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here.

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Speaker 1: I have been chopping at the bit to talk to

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you about this book ever since I heard about it,

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and then after reading about it even more so. It's

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such an important topic and I just can't wait for

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more people to read it. And to learn about it.

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So why don't before we dive into the themes of

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the book, why don't you just tell listeners a little

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bit about yourself and how you came to write this book.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So I am a mother five, I have a PhD

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in philosophy. And when I was doing that PhD, I

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said out loud to God that I would never.

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Speaker 2: Write on women's issues.

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Speaker 3: And here we are eleven books in and I think

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most of them have been related to women's issues.

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Speaker 1: So you should never do that.

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Speaker 2: No, don't do it. It always backfires. The same thing happened.

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Speaker 3: Actually when I met my husband. I met him and

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thought the poor woman that has to marry this guy,

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and ended up marrying him. So God has a great

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sense of humor. But in any event, Yeah, so I

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about ten years ago I wrote my first book, kind

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of just really starting to scrutinize feminism.

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Speaker 2: And that book came out in twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 3: It was called The Anti Mary Exposed, Rescuing the Culture

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from Toxic Femininity. And you know, really, at that point,

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nobody was talking about this about feminism as an issue,

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and so it was kind of an outlier. And you know,

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but the book did well, and I had all these

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people say, can you write a book that would be

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more secular friendly or Protestant friendly, And you know, it

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was totally up for that because I thought that the

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themes were very universal and were not specific just to Catholics.

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And so I then wrote another book called The End

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of Woman, and that came out with Regnery in twenty

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twenty three, and that.

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Speaker 2: Was was great.

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Speaker 3: It's sort of it did well, and it was just

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kind of a philosophical walk through, you know, the foundations

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of feminism and how we got from feminism to the

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trans movement and kind of.

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Speaker 2: All the pieces in between.

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Speaker 3: And then finally I realized, you know, I haven't like

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put the nail on the coffin yet, haven't made it

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clear that feminism and Christianity really are from totally different DNA.

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They have different, you know, roots entirely, and we just

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as Christians, need to stop trying to make the two

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work because it's creating a lot of damage. It's creating

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a lot of confusion more than anything. And I think

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that Christians in general just don't know like what's good

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and what's bad.

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Speaker 2: And what parts we can keep and what parts we.

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Speaker 3: Can't, and So that was really the goal with this

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book was to just finally add a lot of clarity

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and just say, look, these are two very distinct, you know,

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philosophical groups. Feminism was actually set up to undermine and

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to get rid of Christianity, and you know, we need

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to just stop trying to make the two work together.

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Speaker 1: Yes, in the book, you include so much fascinating history,

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and I was especially captivated by your section on and

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first wave feminism, and it kind of took me back

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mentally to a big project I did in college. It

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was college. It was my capstone project on the transgender revolution,

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and that was before it became quite the flashpoint that

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it is now. But in my research, I mean, it

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took me directly back to second wave feminism. I mean

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there's a direct line between Betty free Dan and you know,

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Bella Abzug and their work, and Simone de Bovoir and

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the trans movement and the way that they talked about,

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you know, being beyond gender and not being born a

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woman but becoming one and all these things. But I

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think so that made sense to me, like why second

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wave feminism was so evil and so subversive. But I

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think subconsciously I believed the lie that first wave feminism

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was okay because here are these noble goals, This was necessary,

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but second wave feminism wasn't. And you know, diving especially

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into that first few chapters of your book where you

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really get into the nasty origins of first wave feminism,

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really opened my eyes even more.

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Speaker 2: To some of these some of these issues.

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Speaker 1: So you can you just kind of a thirty thousand

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foot view, because I think we could talk about this

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for a full hour, but just kind of why the

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first wave was just as bad as the second and

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third wave.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so the first wave I bought the lie as well.

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And actually, when I wrote my book The End of Woman,

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I thought, Okay, I've got two days to research the

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first wave. I'll just find some nice quotes and then

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I'll move back to the second wave.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I'm still in the first wave. I

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haven't been able to leave it yet.

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Speaker 3: It's just there's so so much and I keep digging

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and finding more, and that for this book, for something Wicked,

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what really became super abundantly clear was just this the

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idea of how much the first wave was really built

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on disordered theological ideas. Mary Wollstonecraft actually was she had,

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you know, migrated in her faith from Anglicanism to then

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dissenting Christian and then onto Unitarianism, which doesn't believe in

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the Trinity, it doesn't believe in Divini Christ. And she actually,

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you know, makes the point that any kind of male mediator,

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and she's here talking about both pastors and priests and

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Jesus himself is at block or an obstacle to a

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woman's potential to have a relationship or be in relationship

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with God. So she makes that very clear. And then

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you can see as the movement moves forward, it jumps

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across the pond over back to the United States. But

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all of those early first wave feminists from Lucretia Mott

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and Fanny Wright's another one that that people are coming

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to know Elizabeth, Katy Stanton, Susan b. Anthony, Matilda gauge

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On and on, they almost all of them where both

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became Unitarians. So they left you know, Calvinism and being

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Baptists to anything mainline. They left for Unitarianism. And then

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they also most of them also dabbled in the occult

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and were very involved in what was called spiritualism, which

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was you know, seances, and knocking on tables and all

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kinds of things. And that actually where Elizabeth Katy stand

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had the idea for the Seneca Falls Convention in the

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first place, was at one of those spirit tables, which

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is now in the Smithsonian here in Washington. So yeah,

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it's it's pretty amazing when you start looking at it.

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But the but Elizabeth Katie Stanton and Susan B. Anthony

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in particular that you know, their newspaper was called The Revelution,

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and they very specifically were targeting Christianity and they wanted.

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Speaker 2: They believed that it was a tool.

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Speaker 3: Being used by men to enslave women, and they compared

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women's lives to those of slaves, and you know, they're

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very explicit about this, this kind of overlap, which you

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know is audacious when you actually look at who these

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women were and how privileged they were. You know, they're

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making this effort to compare themselves to slaves before the

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Civil Wars.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's really amazing.

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Speaker 3: So that that's kind of the the nest of it,

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or you know, the essence of it. And then even

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things like you know, suffrage was important, but it was

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just more what was more what seemingly was more important

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was this idea of transforming the understanding of womanhood into

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something very masculine, trying to get women believe that they

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would be happier the more they became like men, and

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you know, that they had to just get rid of

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the shackles of Christianity and that then they would be

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liberated from it.

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Speaker 2: So that's kind of the big picture.

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Speaker 1: I think, yeah, yeah, oh my goodness, there's so much

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to unpack and what you just said. And I mean,

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of course, as we've seen since then, there is no

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limiting principle to becoming more like men. I mean, you know,

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first it's it's unshackling yourself. Then it's you know, then

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we see the introduction of the pill like way later

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of course that makes women more like men, and then

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abortion makes women more like men, and then oh, you

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can just actually become a man. Actually you're not actually

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confined to your womanhood. I mean, there is no logical endpoint.

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It's so destructive. I also think it's so interesting that

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so many of these first wave feminists did have religious roots,

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that they did actually have some theological understanding or backing,

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because it strikes me that this was almost you know,

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early decons instructionism.

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Speaker 2: And it's so so.

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Speaker 1: Interesting because you know, all over Instagram, and maybe it's

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just my algorithm or the type of people that I follow,

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but it seems to me that there is a huge

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overlap that then Diagram might just be mostly a circle

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here of women who have bought into feminism and women

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who have deconstructed from Christianity. And of course there are

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still a lot of women who who claim to be

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Christians and I are I think faithful Christians who don't

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know that they've been deceived by feminism and would also

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identify as feminists. But I think there's also a large

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segment of women who do have who do have a

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religious background but were maybe poorly catechised, whether they're Catholic

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or Protestant, and have fallen for feminism and that feminism

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has deconstructed the weak faith that they did have. And

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so it's just interesting you even see this in the

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first wave because really that's what happened to the architects

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of feminism right now.

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Speaker 3: And that was one of the things that was really

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fascinating to see was just these loops that you know,

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these cycles that go that we go through, and so

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very explicitly. I was seeing, you know, what were happening

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among Protestants in particular, kind of this engagement with the occult,

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whether it's enneagrams or you know, just manifesting and various

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things that you are popping up. All of those things

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happened in the eighteen hundreds. And I think, you know,

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the first thing we have to do in understanding this

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is sort of get rid of this the sense that

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we have of this very Victorian prim and proper era,

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but really recognized that there was something very radical going

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on during this period. And even Percy Shelley, who is

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you know, it seems like a totally random person, but he's,

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you know, English poet who created this woman named Sithna

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that became the model for what feminism became.

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Speaker 2: She's these three pieces.

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Speaker 3: One of them was Contempt for Men, which came from

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Shelley's mother in law, Mary Wellstonecraft.

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Speaker 2: From his father in law.

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Speaker 3: He got the idea of what they called free love

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or the end of monogamy. His father in law, William Godwin,

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thought that that he thought that marriage was a kind

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of slavery, and he later went on to influence Marks significantly.

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And then Shelley added his own fascination with the occult.

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But he also said, you know, way back then, this

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is like early eighteen hundred, said we, you know, eventually

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will get rid of this construct called gender or sexuality.

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I'm not exactly sure what language you use, but that

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was kind of the idea, was that he saw that

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this was something that we just needed to rid ourselves of.

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And so it's interesting to see, you know, he's saying

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this well over two hundred years ago, and now if

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you look at feminism today, what is it. It's contempt

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for men, it's promiscuity, and it's the occult. So not

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everybody obviously is involved in all three of those things,

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but you can see how once you are those things

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really do enslave you into this kind of you know,

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this new slavery I think of use and denigration that

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we're really seeing around us now. You know, it's very

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hard to uphold the ordered dignity of a person when

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those pieces are really at play, and that the isolation

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that comes.

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Speaker 2: With them and whatnot.

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Speaker 3: So yes, absolutely amazing to see the patterns, I think.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and just that those seeds were present from the

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very beginning. Again, that this wasn't something that started as

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an innocent thing that kind of snowballed out of control.

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It's this, this was, this was the point the whole time. Yes,

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and there's nothing new, nothing new under the sun here.

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This is a total sidebar. But I also found it

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so interesting as I was reading this first wave history,

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because I took literature classes in college, specifically British literature,

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and it was so funny to see that there's just

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these two parallel tracks. Like I knew of a lot

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of these characters, but I didn't know of them as

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being so adjacent to first wave feminism. I just knew

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of their writing, you know, the Shelley's and all of them,

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and then seeing how they fit into Mary wollstone I

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don't know how to say her name Stonecraft. It was

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just very fascinating. I'm like, oh, wow, there's there's way

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more to probe here than I had any idea when

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I was when I was superficially studied studying these authors

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in college.

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Speaker 2: So fascinating. Wow, No, I think something right.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we should have started here. But but how do

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you define feminism? Because I know everybody has a different

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idea of what it is, So do you think.

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Speaker 3: It is so I think feminism what we're not talking

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about is just this general idea that feminism is about

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helping women. I think this has been kind of a

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blob definition that feminism has trying to use and has

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really stuck under the radar because of it. You know,

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it's it says, well, if you don't like feminism, you

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must not want to help women, or you know, it's

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evaded scrutiny. And I think, very specifically looking at what's

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happened with feminism and the movement and the whole trajectory,

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feminism really is about creating autonomy for women, for women

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as something of an idol that that's really the goal

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of a woman's life is to be autonomous from career,

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I mean from husbands and children, to have her own

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career and sort of basically dictate the way that her

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life looks, that she's sort of the one behind the

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control instead of being deeply embedded in relationships and whatnot.

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And then in addition to that, I have all these

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other pieces and this is really where the book came from.

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Kind of this idea of recognizing that feminism as this

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shadow church is because I think feminism has mimics a

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lot of the things that you see in Christianity. So

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it has this, you know, we have an object of

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worship in Christianity, which is God, and feminism has this

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idol of women's autonomy. And then from there you go to,

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you know, the different commandments that it's got, which are

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I just discussed that the contempt for men, the promiscuity,

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and the involvement, and the occult it's sacrament which is abortion.

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It's got its own form of evangelization, which is certainly,

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you know, broken women break other people around them, and

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we see that in spades. And then it becomes much

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more easy easy to become a feminist because of the

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bitterness and whatnot that's sown in it. And then another

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extraneous piece of it. But I think is really important

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is the emotional level. Christianity has faith, hope, and love,

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and feminism has contempt, rage, and envy are really the

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emotions that it really is trying to promote in women.

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Speaker 2: And that's certainly not by accident either.

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Speaker 3: That goes back to the early eighteen nineties when the

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socialists realize that women are a lot more politically active

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and engaged.

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Speaker 2: When they're angry. So anyway, those are.

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Speaker 3: That's kind of the fabric of it, and that's what

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I talk about in the book itself, or all these

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different pieces that you see that kind of line up

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as imitating Christianity.

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Speaker 4: We are officially in a market riptide with Iran the

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Watched Out on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski. Every

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00:16:47,159 --> 00:16:49,919
day Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and the

330
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,279
economy and how it affects your wallet. If you have

331
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,759
a good portfolio with good companies, just get out of

332
00:16:55,759 --> 00:16:59,039
the way. Don't guess what's going to happen tomorrow. Do

333
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,279
not fight the riptide. Whether it's happening in DC or

334
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,839
down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. Be informed.

335
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,000
Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris

336
00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:10,039
Markowski on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it is interesting that you know, this

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kind of blob definition is so easy to get behind.

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I think that's why so many, so many women fall

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for it. Is Oh, it's just because to oppose feminism

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is just to oppose womankind. If you if you believe

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the modern conception of the definition of feminism, and it

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is just so interesting that the feminists have not only

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defined their own movement wrongly, but they've also defined what

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being an anti feminist is wrongly as well. They kind

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of hold all the definitions, and it's hard because the

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definitions are so vague to to oppose feminism because again

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it's it's such a flowery, vague definition, and yeah, hard

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to oppose something that sounds so noble and so so wonderful.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well then it adds on the you know you,

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certain people aren't allowed to talk about it, like men

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can't talk about it.

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Speaker 2: Because I'm not women, and then I'm not supposed to

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talk about it because I have a PhD.

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Speaker 3: You know, it sort of becomes like this mommy deariest relationship,

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like you've benefited from feminism, therefore we can't talk about it,

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you know, which nobody would accept that when it comes

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to any kind of religion, like oh, you've benefited from Christianity,

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therefore you can't scrutinize it like that.

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Speaker 2: That's ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: You know, no one, no secular person, and no one

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who would consider themselves a feminist, would actually allow that

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to happen in that case.

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Speaker 2: So why is it that somehow.

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Speaker 3: It's this is protected entity, right, look behind the curtain

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at what's really going on behind it and see, you know,

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is this really good? And I think it's because so

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much of it is really bad that it's you know,

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it's worked hard to hide it from the general population.

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Speaker 1: You touched on autonomy when you talked about the three

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Commandments of feminism. Can you in the book you write

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that autonomy is both a lie and an idol. Can

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you explain what you mean by that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So autonomy is fascinating because one of the things

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that you see, you know, first wave feminism, for all

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of its faults, you've got all these women who are,

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with the best of intention, trying to protect other women.

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That the irony is, of course, that all the efforts

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that they've made to try to protect women have not

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actually worked. So, for example, if you look at who

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Mary Wollstonecraft is trying to protect her sister and her

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best friend and the relationships they were involved in, we

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still see the exact same kind of abuse in women,

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only it's much much worse, especially if you include human

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trafficking and all the other realities, awful realities that we're

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seeing today.

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Speaker 2: In the world.

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Speaker 3: So there's this effort at trying to sort of bubble

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wrap women that if we don't have these relationships with

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men or with children, and we're just really focused on

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what are our own you know, career and focus, then

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we're not going to be vulnerable. But of course that's

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the lie, because you're still vulnerable. It just comes in

394
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different stages. And you know, this is part of being human,

395
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is that idea of being in relationship with others and

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loving others and self gift. And you know, the tragedy is,

397
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of course, that so many women buy into this, and

398
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then it's not until they're you know, fifties sixties that

399
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they realize like, okay, this lie about my fertility was

400
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a total lie, and now I'm alone and this is

401
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not at all what I wanted my life to look like.

402
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So I think that's the big lie. But the thing

403
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that's so compelling about it is, you know, this idea

404
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of autonomy is appealing because you don't have to wait

405
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for a man to ask you on a date, you

406
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don't have to wait for someone to propose to you.

407
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You know, everything is really about your own control and

408
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power and what it is that you want, and the career,

409
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it certainly is the goal of you know this this

410
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elusive goal of having this incredible career and you know,

411
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being very fulfilled by that.

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Speaker 2: But I think obviously there are problems.

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Speaker 3: With that as an idol, because that's never going to

414
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satisfy you, you know, especially because it becomes we become

415
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so insular and self gazing, and we know through Christianity

416
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that we've become that joy really comes from self gift

417
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and giving of ourselves to others and uniting ourselves with

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God's will instead of it being all our will. So

419
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I think that those are you know, all of these

420
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things are problematic because it's it's it's questing after something

421
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that's a much lower good than what it is that

422
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we're meant to really be seeking. And sadly, of course,

423
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our economic system is really built around this. You know,

424
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,279
you've got medical schools and law schools promoting the idea

425
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of freezing eggs, and you know, women that you can

426
00:21:38,759 --> 00:21:41,599
just put off motherhood until you're ready for it, and

427
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,119
you know, these things too, are just laden with lies

428
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because of course women's fertility isn't a switch that can

429
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be flipped on and off at will, but you know,

430
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has its own path and course and you know and

431
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levels off, you know, steeply after a certain age. So yeah,

432
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I think that's the real issue, is just trying to

433
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see asked this that this really is about, you know,

434
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being seduced into an idea of what it is it's

435
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best for us, instead of what's fundamentally really is the

436
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best thing for women.

437
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting that. I Okay, So I wonder if

438
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that is why IVF specifically can be so seductive for

439
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,079
Christians or for people who would carry the you know,

440
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:29,000
label of pro life. But are you know, deceived into

441
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thinking that IVF is pro life rather than what it is,

442
00:22:32,079 --> 00:22:34,440
which is you know, part of big fertility. It's actually

443
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horrible for women, it's deadly for children because you're not

444
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fully scorning motherhood. You are just trying to have your

445
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cake and eat it too. It's like it's like trying

446
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to value human life, trying to value motherhood, but also

447
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trying to live out the lie of autonomy and the

448
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idol of autonomy of I can have my career, i

449
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can pursue the things that I want to pursue. I'm

450
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not shackled by my fertility. I'm not shackled by you know,

451
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a single motherhood or stay at home, motherhood, life in

452
00:23:04,279 --> 00:23:07,839
the home. But I can still hold these two things

453
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that are kind of contradictory of motherhood and you know,

454
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the feminist ideal simultaneously while also convincing that IVF is

455
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a pro life and Christian position. And I hadn't thought

456
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of that till just now, but it really seems like

457
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maybe one way that the enemy can deceive women into

458
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thinking that they are can be both feminists and Christians

459
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and also pro life while supporting these practices that are

460
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inherently neither Christian nor pro life.

461
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Speaker 2: Yeah.

462
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Speaker 3: Now, I think that's an amazing point, because you just

463
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connected a lot of really interesting dots that I hadn't

464
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,400
really thought about. But I think that what you've just

465
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described is what we're seeing, especially among conservative feminists and

466
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Catholic feminists in particular, is kind of this cake and

467
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,640
eat it too attitude, where it can be I can

468
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:50,559
still do all these things that I want to do

469
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and without having to give anything up. And the reality

470
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is is that, you know, that's that's the big problem,

471
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is that we have been seduced and told and even

472
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the whole culture reflects this, this idea of having it

473
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all and being able to do it all and there's

474
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no sacrifice at any point. But we know that, you know, order, beauty, love,

475
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all of these things are actually built on sacrifice. And

476
00:24:13,279 --> 00:24:15,039
you know, obviously this is the beauty of a woman

477
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,960
having many seasons of her life and you know, being

478
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,119
able to learn which season needs to what needs to

479
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,839
happen at which season, that's really important. But instead we've

480
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,599
prioritized kind of this goal of like the career and

481
00:24:28,759 --> 00:24:30,039
still wanting to be the stay.

482
00:24:29,839 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 2: At home mom. But it's in the end of it.

483
00:24:31,759 --> 00:24:34,559
And actually I wrote a piece about this for the Federalist.

484
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 3: Is this idea of kind of this girl math of

485
00:24:38,279 --> 00:24:40,759
you can't do both the full time mom and the

486
00:24:40,799 --> 00:24:46,000
full time career without something giving, and sadly what we

487
00:24:46,079 --> 00:24:48,799
have seen give are the children. And I think IVF

488
00:24:48,839 --> 00:24:52,720
is just another you know piece, you know, even earlier

489
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,519
at an earlier stage of where we are expecting children

490
00:24:55,559 --> 00:24:59,200
to sort of accommodate us instead of the other way around.

491
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,400
So yeah, I really the way they can articulated that.

492
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 1: The self sacrifice point is such a good a good

493
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,039
point too, because I think one thing that I've heard

494
00:25:06,039 --> 00:25:09,880
from self described feminist Christians is just this idea of

495
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,279
Jesus as a liberator. And you know, of course, in

496
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,000
some ways we know that that is true in the

497
00:25:15,039 --> 00:25:17,279
sense that he frees us from our sins, like he

498
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,960
liberates us in some ways. But just just sort of

499
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,319
going back to the basics of what we know about

500
00:25:24,319 --> 00:25:28,319
the character of Christ as not somebody who liberates us

501
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,920
to self actualization, but rather to self denial, like he

502
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,599
is the epitome of self sacrifice. That's the whole point

503
00:25:35,599 --> 00:25:37,880
of the gospel, is that he came to actually lay

504
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,160
down his life for the good of others. And just

505
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,240
this idea that that the feminist ideal of I can

506
00:25:43,319 --> 00:25:45,960
have it all, and I can determine my destiny and

507
00:25:46,039 --> 00:25:48,599
you know, I can live out my dream even if

508
00:25:48,599 --> 00:25:51,799
it requires putting my family and other people around me

509
00:25:51,839 --> 00:25:54,759
on the back burner. It's so anti the character of Christ.

510
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,400
And we can use, we can you know, co opt

511
00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,799
feminist language and sort of try to marry it to

512
00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:03,119
Jesus speak, but it just doesn't work because that's just

513
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,640
not who the Savior is. And so it's so important

514
00:26:06,799 --> 00:26:08,759
to help get women out of these patterns of thinking

515
00:26:08,799 --> 00:26:11,400
that are just really really anti biblical.

516
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I think that is such a great point too.

517
00:26:14,319 --> 00:26:15,680
You know, one of the books that I use for

518
00:26:15,759 --> 00:26:19,599
my research was this book called Satanic Feminism. And when

519
00:26:19,599 --> 00:26:22,359
I first read this book, it's it's published by Oxford

520
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,200
University Press, very academic.

521
00:26:24,279 --> 00:26:26,759
Speaker 2: It was a it was a dissertation.

522
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 3: And I, for whatever reason, I don't know why, I

523
00:26:29,839 --> 00:26:32,880
never looked at the subtitle of the book, and I

524
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,000
just assumed that this guy was against feminism, because with

525
00:26:37,039 --> 00:26:39,880
a name like Satanic Feminism, you would think that who

526
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,720
would be for that? But the subtitle of the book

527
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:48,799
is basically, how Lucifer Liberated Women. That's the subtitle of

528
00:26:48,839 --> 00:26:51,200
the book. And so it's really interesting because he's of

529
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,960
course using it's it's really an awful book, but the

530
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,960
research is amazing and was incredibly helpful, especially in my

531
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:00,400
book and a Woman. But that's the amazing thing is

532
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,319
just this what does that word liberate mean and what's

533
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,319
being what is it playing out? And so if you

534
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,279
go back to the first wave, what they mean by

535
00:27:08,319 --> 00:27:11,960
liberation is freedom from husband and Christianity.

536
00:27:12,039 --> 00:27:13,279
Speaker 2: That's exactly what they mean.

537
00:27:13,319 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 3: They don't mean, you know, that this sort of contorted

538
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,200
way of you know, no more sacrificing. They mean the

539
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,920
exact opposite of that, and that really is I think

540
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,680
what you're right, Christ calls us to is this life

541
00:27:25,759 --> 00:27:29,519
of following him, of emptying ourselves out for others, and

542
00:27:29,559 --> 00:27:33,000
that's really where we're going to find joy and happiness,

543
00:27:33,039 --> 00:27:34,759
and we're going to find, you know, the beauty of

544
00:27:34,759 --> 00:27:38,519
complementarity of male and female. Going back to Genesis, which

545
00:27:38,559 --> 00:27:40,319
is a whole other layer of things that have been

546
00:27:40,319 --> 00:27:43,640
distorted by the feminists in the first wave in particular,

547
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:47,480
is this idea of who Eve was and what she represented.

548
00:27:47,559 --> 00:27:50,880
So anyway, Yeah, I think these are really important terms

549
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,720
that we need to, you know, understand deeply who the

550
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,880
person of Christ was and what it is that we're

551
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,799
meant to follow instead of just having this expectation.

552
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:03,079
Speaker 2: That you know, really it's an entitlement.

553
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 3: It's a sense of entitlement that we're somehow owed things

554
00:28:07,039 --> 00:28:08,440
instead of offering things.

555
00:28:08,839 --> 00:28:11,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, you bring up Genesis, and that was one thing

556
00:28:11,319 --> 00:28:12,960
that struck me. I think you bring it up multiple

557
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,519
times in the book about just the Satan's tactic of

558
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,680
going after the woman and how that worked in the

559
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,960
garden and how that has just continued throughout all time

560
00:28:23,079 --> 00:28:26,000
that I forget how you phrase it. Maybe you can

561
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,920
you can articulate it better, but just the way that

562
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,240
you can crumble so many things by like captivating women

563
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,119
and catching them in the sin, and the way that

564
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,759
it's just destroyed everyone, not just women.

565
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,599
Speaker 3: Right right, Yeah, no, I think that's exactly right. There's

566
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:45,880
something about womanhood where men will follow what it is

567
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,359
that women do. We see that with Eve, and so

568
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,920
you better get your women right. And this is you know,

569
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,920
the tragedy of what feminism has done is because it has.

570
00:28:54,799 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: Silenced men so broadly.

571
00:28:57,319 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 3: You know, it's just amazing to hear the cricket see

572
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,039
and there's so many men, you know, I hear privately

573
00:29:01,079 --> 00:29:04,319
all the time who don't like feminism, who don't want feminism,

574
00:29:04,359 --> 00:29:06,519
and there are certainly a few that are speaking up,

575
00:29:06,559 --> 00:29:09,480
and the voices are getting louder and stronger and more numerous,

576
00:29:10,279 --> 00:29:12,359
Thanks be to God, but that for.

577
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,039
Speaker 2: You know, how many we're in like the sixth.

578
00:29:14,759 --> 00:29:17,519
Speaker 3: Decade of this, and it's taken a very long time,

579
00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:20,839
I think for that realization. And you know, we had

580
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:22,839
to get to this point where people it's just so

581
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,200
obvious to see what the damage is and so people

582
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,599
are feeling a lot more comfortable I think talking up

583
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,680
or speaking up about it. But absolutely I think that

584
00:29:31,759 --> 00:29:34,960
Fulton Sheen had this amazing line about how you can

585
00:29:35,039 --> 00:29:38,519
measure a culture by the level of its women, because

586
00:29:38,599 --> 00:29:43,000
women are typically meant to be something that men aspire

587
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,960
to be worthy of. So when you have women who

588
00:29:46,039 --> 00:29:49,440
are not aspiring to anything worthy, in fact, you know,

589
00:29:49,599 --> 00:29:51,640
it's very difficult even to find what a good woman

590
00:29:51,799 --> 00:29:54,680
is in the culture today. There's nothing for them to

591
00:29:54,759 --> 00:29:57,559
aspire to. There's nothing for them to really have to

592
00:29:57,599 --> 00:30:02,359
become better men in order to be attractive, and you know,

593
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,640
something that that woman feels like is worth attaching herself to.

594
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,279
And so I think this is one of the reasons

595
00:30:09,319 --> 00:30:11,519
why we're seeing so many problems, you know, the constant

596
00:30:11,559 --> 00:30:13,960
complaint there's no men out there, well, what.

597
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:14,759
Speaker 2: Are we done with women?

598
00:30:14,839 --> 00:30:17,039
Speaker 3: You know, it sort of feels like, in many respects,

599
00:30:17,079 --> 00:30:19,400
sort of this race to the bottom of like which

600
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:24,920
sex can behave worse instead of the opposite, which actually

601
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,079
has sort of this internal motivation for people to become

602
00:30:28,119 --> 00:30:31,960
better built. And when you're really working with human nature

603
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:33,079
as it ought to be worked.

604
00:30:32,839 --> 00:30:35,599
Speaker 1: With right well, and it's not just about character and

605
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,599
virtue but also about function, Like you don't need men

606
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,640
to be providers. When women become the providers and women

607
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,279
are core substitutes for it. But still it's when women

608
00:30:45,359 --> 00:30:48,920
have supplanted men in function, then you also don't need

609
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,960
men to step up to do what they were designed

610
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,359
to do. And so it's just, you know, the fault

611
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,559
of not being able to find good men in many ways,

612
00:30:57,599 --> 00:30:59,599
probably in most ways falls at the feet of women.

613
00:31:00,599 --> 00:31:01,960
We really need to own up to.

614
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 3: That well, and I think that's right in terms of

615
00:31:05,799 --> 00:31:08,440
even looking at where the big change happened, and it

616
00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:12,200
certainly happened in the sixties and seventies with free love,

617
00:31:12,359 --> 00:31:15,480
you know, promiscuity becoming something to which women really aspire

618
00:31:15,519 --> 00:31:17,519
because they thought that would make them more like men.

619
00:31:18,519 --> 00:31:21,319
That's the big change that I think it took place,

620
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,240
and that we haven't really paid enough attention to to

621
00:31:24,319 --> 00:31:29,200
really realizing the incredible amount of damage that is being.

622
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:29,519
Speaker 2: Done by that.

623
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 3: But the amazing thing is is that women aren't generally

624
00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:36,160
able to be autonomous and take care of all the

625
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,400
things that they want. It usually ends up being the

626
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:41,640
state that takes over the role of the man. And

627
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,519
that's the real tragedy because that's when you're really trapped

628
00:31:45,279 --> 00:31:47,640
because we become so dependent on the state, and of

629
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,400
course the state then has to grow larger, and then

630
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,359
you've got men are who are not responsible for anyone

631
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,200
or anything. So yeah, it's it's amazing to see, you know,

632
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,839
there's no longer just sort of two people here. There's

633
00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:04,799
that the state has become its own entity, such that

634
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,400
the phrase burerogamy is being used. You know, women are

635
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,240
now married to the state and not to men.

636
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,519
Speaker 1: That is such a good point. And it's not even

637
00:32:13,279 --> 00:32:17,160
hidden anymore. I mean, this has been an explicit goal

638
00:32:17,319 --> 00:32:21,880
of the government since I mean probably before Barack Obama.

639
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,960
But Life of Julia comes to mind of this idea

640
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,680
that there's this woman who is fulfilled in every way

641
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,079
and she doesn't have a husband, and you know, big

642
00:32:30,119 --> 00:32:32,400
brother is her husband and he takes care of her

643
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:37,359
from cradle to grave, and it's, oh, it's just so damaging.

644
00:32:37,359 --> 00:32:41,480
And I don't understand. I don't understand the allure, Like

645
00:32:41,559 --> 00:32:45,480
why is this desirable for women? You know, because you're

646
00:32:45,559 --> 00:32:49,119
not autonomous, you are not self sufficient, you're not independent,

647
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,559
you are still cared for by an abusive husband. Because

648
00:32:53,559 --> 00:32:56,119
the state is the state will never love you back.

649
00:32:56,559 --> 00:32:58,519
Speaker 3: They will never love you back as much as much

650
00:32:58,519 --> 00:33:00,799
as you give to it. And I and I think

651
00:33:00,839 --> 00:33:03,799
that's a really fundamental point, though, is that women's vulnerability

652
00:33:03,839 --> 00:33:08,640
hasn't gone away. It's just been masked or or somehow

653
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,640
we've been fed something align about it that it's not true,

654
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,759
or somehow we don't believe that we're vulnerable even though

655
00:33:14,799 --> 00:33:17,279
we're still married to the state. You know that it's

656
00:33:17,319 --> 00:33:21,279
this incredible amount of confusion about it. And and then

657
00:33:21,319 --> 00:33:23,200
if you look at the flip side, though, you know

658
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,079
what is what happens when you have men who provide

659
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:31,160
and protect and you know, understand their roles as husbands

660
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,440
and fathers. And it's in that space that suddenly a

661
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,519
woman's vulnerability is no longer you know, liability, it's actually

662
00:33:37,519 --> 00:33:40,200
an asset because that's when she really is allowed to

663
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,920
become the person that she's meant.

664
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 2: To be, which is a life giver.

665
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,759
Speaker 3: Women are meant to be life givers, whether we're biological

666
00:33:46,799 --> 00:33:49,960
mothers or spiritual mothers, you know, all of these different

667
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,000
aspects in which.

668
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:52,559
Speaker 2: Women mother others.

669
00:33:53,599 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 3: When you, when you are cared for and protected and loved,

670
00:33:56,799 --> 00:33:59,559
then suddenly all of that can bloom in this incredibly

671
00:33:59,599 --> 00:34:03,920
beautiful and fruitful way in our lives, where you know,

672
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,079
children are know that they're loved and can grow up

673
00:34:08,079 --> 00:34:09,880
to be the children that they're meant to be instead

674
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:14,079
of you know, passed around from you know, organization organization

675
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:18,199
or person to person, and then the marriage itself obviously

676
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,519
becomes stronger as well. So I think that we it's

677
00:34:22,559 --> 00:34:25,559
exciting to start thinking about how do we as conservatives

678
00:34:25,559 --> 00:34:30,840
start creating better models of what is available to us

679
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,559
when we actually follow human nature and really understand the

680
00:34:34,559 --> 00:34:37,519
complementarity of male and female and then the trouble gifts

681
00:34:37,519 --> 00:34:40,400
that men have and then what women have, and even

682
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,719
that baseline idea, like when you tell the woman that

683
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,960
she's a mother and she understands that to a core,

684
00:34:45,039 --> 00:34:47,880
even though she has no children. We see it certainly

685
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,559
in little girls, you know, this innate desire to mother,

686
00:34:52,559 --> 00:34:54,000
and we help her do that in a way that's

687
00:34:54,119 --> 00:34:57,559
ordered and not driven by her emotions or her ego

688
00:34:57,679 --> 00:35:03,000
or whatnot. Only she can do amazing things no matter

689
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,119
where she's at, if she's in the workplace or if

690
00:35:05,159 --> 00:35:07,360
she really is you know, she does have her own children,

691
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,800
or if she ends up you know, working in a

692
00:35:10,199 --> 00:35:14,280
job that requires her to be really compassionate. Then then

693
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,159
she looks like a much different person and she can

694
00:35:16,199 --> 00:35:18,719
really get through life in a different way instead of

695
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,920
always searching for something, you know, it becomes about her

696
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,159
becoming more of who she's meant to be, instead of

697
00:35:25,199 --> 00:35:28,239
grasping at things that you are supposed to just be

698
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,679
pleasurable or tantalizing or you know, the next adventure, the

699
00:35:32,679 --> 00:35:35,679
next wardrobe or whatnot. There's a real core and a

700
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,280
depth there, and I think that's what we were missing today.

701
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,239
And the idea of good woman is that core of

702
00:35:42,639 --> 00:35:45,280
what it means to take care and love and treasure

703
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,320
and you know, be loyal to others.

704
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,119
Speaker 1: That's such an important point. I've been thinking a lot

705
00:35:51,159 --> 00:35:56,400
about this idea of misplaced mothering, because this desire to

706
00:35:56,559 --> 00:35:59,800
mother is inherent in women, even if we do fight

707
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,119
ainst our biology. But I've been thinking about it a lot.

708
00:36:03,159 --> 00:36:05,320
And now that we've been talking about the state and

709
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,400
kind of being married to the state, it strikes me

710
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,000
that it's not just a one way relationship there either,

711
00:36:10,039 --> 00:36:14,360
where the state becomes the husband for the woman, but

712
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,880
also it in many ways becomes her the object of

713
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,039
her mothering, where you know, we see this a lot

714
00:36:20,039 --> 00:36:24,159
with progressive political activism, where women will murder their own

715
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,199
children in the womb, but then use their mothering instinct

716
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,239
to go protest for you know, children in another country

717
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,039
that they don't know and will never meet. And you know,

718
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,840
I think of you know, the lies from the media

719
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,000
about the five year old used as bait by ice

720
00:36:38,119 --> 00:36:40,639
or whatnot, and number of women who came out of

721
00:36:40,639 --> 00:36:43,519
the woodwork to mother this boy in the sense of

722
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,920
caring for him and you know, advocating for his rights

723
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,159
and all these things. It's like, these are all instincts

724
00:36:49,159 --> 00:36:52,679
that are good, but they should be channeled toward your

725
00:36:52,679 --> 00:36:55,639
own children. And you know, I mean then you run

726
00:36:55,679 --> 00:36:57,400
into all kinds of media propaganda. I mean, there's many,

727
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,079
many elements of this that have nothing to do with

728
00:36:59,079 --> 00:37:02,039
with feminism specif. But it just strikes me that it's

729
00:37:02,039 --> 00:37:04,599
actually a circular relationship where you care for the state

730
00:37:04,639 --> 00:37:07,119
cares for the woman, and then the woman will will

731
00:37:07,679 --> 00:37:12,159
use her mothering instinct to to sort of facilitate more

732
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,519
of this from the state, and and it's just it's

733
00:37:15,519 --> 00:37:19,119
so crazy. You cannot deny this biological urge to mother.

734
00:37:19,199 --> 00:37:22,920
And I had a really awesome conversation last week with

735
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,320
Chloe Cole on the podcast she fell for the transl

736
00:37:27,599 --> 00:37:31,519
as a child and and you know, was living as

737
00:37:31,559 --> 00:37:34,079
a man quote unquote for a while and has detransition,

738
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,920
and she talks about how one of the things that

739
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,559
kind of brought snapped her back to reality was being

740
00:37:39,679 --> 00:37:43,440
in class and learning about pregnancy and breastfeeding and it's

741
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,559
striking her that like, I'm never going to get to

742
00:37:45,559 --> 00:37:47,280
do this, but she's wired to do this and she

743
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,079
wants to do this, and how powerful just that, Like

744
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,880
women can spend their whole lives fighting against this urge,

745
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:56,239
but it's still there, and maybe it manifests in ugly ways,

746
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,719
but but it doesn't go away just because you you know,

747
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,800
fall for abortion and and all these other anti woman,

748
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,840
anti life things. The urged mother is still present.

749
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think that's that's really important.

750
00:38:08,199 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 3: And you know, obviously the pet craze has been a

751
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:15,320
huge avenue through which women are still mothering. You know

752
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,400
now that especially now that you see dogs and strollers

753
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,960
and you know, it's just amazing how far it's gone.

754
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,079
But yeah, it is that that misplaced compassion, that idea

755
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,079
of the woman who works for peta but she's awarded

756
00:38:30,119 --> 00:38:32,400
her own child. And you know, one of the ways

757
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,239
that I've started talking about it and thinking about it

758
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,719
specifically is just to really, you know, ask that question,

759
00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,320
like how local is your love or the people that

760
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:40,719
you love?

761
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 2: Can you touch them, can you see them? Can they

762
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:43,159
see your face?

763
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 3: Because that's really where women excel and you know, are

764
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,039
so gifted because we're so embodied to be a sense

765
00:38:51,039 --> 00:38:54,880
of home for others, certainly in a very real sense

766
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,039
as far as as having a child. That's you know,

767
00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:00,679
a woman is the is the first home for every

768
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:05,320
human and then you know, it only extends out of

769
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:06,320
there in terms.

770
00:39:06,159 --> 00:39:08,639
Speaker 2: Of the amount of time that you know, you just spend.

771
00:39:09,039 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 3: Holding a baby, looking at a baby, holding your children,

772
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,239
looking at you know, being dialed into them in a

773
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,280
very real and rich way. And instead we've we've said, oh,

774
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,119
that's not really that important. You need to be involved

775
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,000
doing big things, you know, saving the universe or saving

776
00:39:24,039 --> 00:39:27,760
the world, doing something with people that you have, you know,

777
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:28,920
you probably never even meet.

778
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 2: So I think you're.

779
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,800
Speaker 3: Exactly right about that real inversion that's that's happening and

780
00:39:34,519 --> 00:39:38,400
continues to happen and be sold to us as a m.

781
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,159
Speaker 1: Let's let's go back to the three commandments of feminism,

782
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,719
because one thing in the book that really struck me

783
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,239
that I've been kind of noodling on is how these

784
00:39:48,519 --> 00:39:53,599
three commandments of feminism, which I think you said, are promiscuity, Uh,

785
00:39:53,639 --> 00:39:56,960
what is it? Autonomy and the occult is that correct.

786
00:39:56,639 --> 00:39:59,679
Speaker 2: Time, promiscuity can tempt from men and they call oh.

787
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, And how they directly attack the Trinity, which

788
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,440
is especially interesting in light of the Unitarian beliefs of

789
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,679
the early feminist But can you can you kind of

790
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,480
explain how each of these commandments does directly attack the

791
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:15,000
three persons of the Trinity.

792
00:40:15,599 --> 00:40:18,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, So this was a fascinating insight that I actually

793
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:20,840
got from my husband because he was trying to find

794
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,079
a quick way for me to describe all of this

795
00:40:23,119 --> 00:40:25,519
because it comes up over and over and over again

796
00:40:26,159 --> 00:40:28,480
and again. It comes from Percy Shelley in the early

797
00:40:28,519 --> 00:40:33,519
eighteen hundreds. So yeah, when you're obviously, if you have

798
00:40:33,599 --> 00:40:35,679
contempt for men, it's going to be very hard to

799
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,079
have a direct relationship with God the Father, because you're

800
00:40:39,079 --> 00:40:44,519
not going to trust men. The second part would be promiscuity. Well,

801
00:40:44,519 --> 00:40:48,440
if you're promiscuous, you're could not honoring your body, which

802
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,679
is the temple of the Holy Spirit. And then the

803
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,760
third way would be obviously the occult, which is really

804
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,920
a violation of the authority of Christ as King and

805
00:40:58,199 --> 00:41:02,159
Savior of the world. Instead, you're really buying into something

806
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,039
that is supposed to be, you know, at odds with

807
00:41:05,119 --> 00:41:09,719
His his power and his kingdom. So I think it's

808
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,880
it's fascinating to see like that those are the three things,

809
00:41:13,039 --> 00:41:17,360
because they may get incredibly difficult to then re estabulate,

810
00:41:17,599 --> 00:41:21,360
re establish a relationship with God because the fact that

811
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,519
you've gone after these very specific ways that we're embodied

812
00:41:25,559 --> 00:41:28,239
souls that you know are are able to be in

813
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,639
relationship with the Trinity. Yeah, I think it's a it's

814
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,239
really it's kind of devastating when you start seeing just

815
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:41,000
how targeted Christianity has been by the feminists from in that,

816
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,440
you know, very the mechanics, not just the general idea,

817
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,440
but in the very mechanics of what it means to

818
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:47,880
believe in the Trinity.

819
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 1: Yes, can you explain a little bit more about the

820
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:56,480
occult aspect of this, because you know, if again, if

821
00:41:56,519 --> 00:42:00,159
my instagram is any indications, there are a lot of

822
00:42:00,199 --> 00:42:04,880
self described feminist Christian women who are not, you know,

823
00:42:05,039 --> 00:42:09,280
blatantly into this witchy occult stuff. They're just posting girl empowerment,

824
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,280
you know, memes and think that that their career is

825
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,000
more fulfilling the motherhood and then you know, by by

826
00:42:15,039 --> 00:42:17,239
all accounts, it stops there.

827
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 2: So what would you.

828
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,599
Speaker 1: Say to women who who maybe would self identify as

829
00:42:21,599 --> 00:42:25,000
both feminists and Christians, who say, yeah, this doesn't apply

830
00:42:25,039 --> 00:42:27,280
to me because I'm not I'm not into tarot cards

831
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,800
and I don't do palm rings and I don't dabble

832
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:31,599
in anything of the occult.

833
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean I think that you can sort

834
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,719
of bracken out the occult in a certain respect because

835
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:38,960
I think there are so many women that that do

836
00:42:39,079 --> 00:42:40,679
believe that. And actually that was kind of one of

837
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,440
the things.

838
00:42:43,039 --> 00:42:43,840
Speaker 2: That you know, I didn't.

839
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 3: I've tried to tone down discussion of that certainly in

840
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:48,599
the last book, The End of Women, because I just

841
00:42:48,599 --> 00:42:52,199
thought this isn't really as important as these other philosophical ideas,

842
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,360
the way in which we've been brainwashed. And this is

843
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,079
why in the End of Women Too, I talk a

844
00:42:57,119 --> 00:43:00,679
lot about the communist connection and this idea of the

845
00:43:00,679 --> 00:43:03,480
prioritization of work, and so I think that's actually the

846
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,159
bigger piece is you know, Betty frid Anne. We know

847
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,239
there's a ton of documentation. There's actually a book written

848
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,000
by her friend, David Horowitz I think is his name,

849
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,199
about Betty fred Anne and her connection with communism and

850
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,000
this idea of getting women out of the home to

851
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:22,199
do productive work, because the Communists had decided that motherhood

852
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,519
was not productive work. So she uses all these really

853
00:43:25,559 --> 00:43:30,639
amazing psychological tactics, things like, you know, women's fear of

854
00:43:30,679 --> 00:43:33,679
missing out, and you know, again the denigration of the home.

855
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,480
She calls it the comfortable concentration camp. So she's trying

856
00:43:37,519 --> 00:43:40,199
to denigrate that to get women out into the workforce

857
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:44,079
so that to promote the Communist revolution. So I think

858
00:43:44,119 --> 00:43:45,960
this is you know, the problem isn't so much for

859
00:43:46,079 --> 00:43:48,559
Christians necessarily on the occult level.

860
00:43:48,639 --> 00:43:50,199
Speaker 2: It is exactly what you described.

861
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:52,679
Speaker 3: It's on the work level, and this level of autonomy

862
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:58,360
and the prioritization of work over the much more important

863
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:02,039
elements of faith and family. So I think that that's

864
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,800
you know that so for the woman that you've just described,

865
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,639
that's really the key issue because in a certain respect

866
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,119
it's it's bought in sort of through the back door

867
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,039
communist principles, which are obviously not in any way congruent

868
00:44:15,079 --> 00:44:19,159
with Christianity either, this idea of you know, constantly.

869
00:44:20,159 --> 00:44:21,679
Speaker 2: Even that that language.

870
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,519
Speaker 3: Of empowerment, you know that that sort of implies that

871
00:44:23,519 --> 00:44:26,960
women were not in power and gets back to that

872
00:44:27,039 --> 00:44:31,079
language of victimhood or victimization, where women are automatically victims

873
00:44:31,079 --> 00:44:33,840
because we're female, and men are the victimizers or the

874
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:38,840
pressure pressers because they're male, which is absolutely you know,

875
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:43,159
the language of marx that's been twisted through critical.

876
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:43,599
Speaker 2: Theory and whatnot.

877
00:44:44,519 --> 00:44:46,760
Speaker 3: So I think there's a lot more going on than

878
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,400
people realize that it's you know that there's there.

879
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 2: It's kind of language.

880
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 3: It's very loaded with a lot of Communist and Marxist

881
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,159
concepts that that we sort of buy into at our peril,

882
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:01,639
and I think that's really what we're seeing. You know,

883
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:03,599
so many of the problems in the culture today is

884
00:45:03,639 --> 00:45:07,639
because we've become very communists by focusing on work and

885
00:45:07,679 --> 00:45:10,800
the denigration of the home, and we've really allowed this

886
00:45:11,119 --> 00:45:14,079
to proliferate because we don't understand the importance of the home.

887
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:18,519
So I think that's hopefully that speaks a little bit

888
00:45:18,679 --> 00:45:22,159
more directly to that. And you know, aside from the occult,

889
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,039
like even if you're not involved with occult, if you're

890
00:45:24,079 --> 00:45:27,199
still involved in this language where women are victims and

891
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:31,880
therefore entitled to something and men are therefore oppressors and

892
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,880
not entitled to something. You know, this is where you

893
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,920
get into dei and all kinds of issues about merit

894
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,480
and the way in which we use structure society such

895
00:45:42,519 --> 00:45:46,599
that the family can fundamentally flourish instead of what we're

896
00:45:46,599 --> 00:45:47,440
seeing today.

897
00:45:47,639 --> 00:45:50,039
Speaker 1: Right right, yeah, well, and I guess you know, even

898
00:45:50,039 --> 00:45:52,239
if you're not into astrology or even if you're not

899
00:45:52,639 --> 00:45:55,199
practicing any of these, you know, wu who kind of

900
00:45:55,320 --> 00:46:01,239
out there things occult things, you can't get away from

901
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,840
the origins of feminism being rooted in the occult. And

902
00:46:05,039 --> 00:46:07,360
you also, it makes me think of the garden again,

903
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,039
like you know, when when Adam and Eve's sin and

904
00:46:10,119 --> 00:46:13,559
after the fall, you know, they're told, or Eve is told,

905
00:46:13,679 --> 00:46:16,320
your desire will be for your husband and he will

906
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,880
rule over you. And just this like this sort of

907
00:46:20,079 --> 00:46:22,679
friction between the sexes and like the way that women

908
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:24,719
try to dominate men and try to take over men's

909
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,199
roles and I mean that is just that's been ongoing

910
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,760
since the Garden, and you know, it's a sin, and

911
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,280
so in that way it is demonic. I mean, it's

912
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,599
from the enemy, it's not Christian, and so even if

913
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:38,480
not an ault, it's still demonic.

914
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 2: I think that's such a great point too.

915
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,760
Speaker 3: And you know, I think that whole element really, I mean,

916
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:48,199
feminism fundamentally is based on power and control. And so

917
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,960
if there's a situation where a woman, you know, fundamentally

918
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,239
will says I will not serve. Even though we know

919
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,960
that God has set up the hierarchy, set up the

920
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,239
whole Christian order in a and respect, No, this isn't

921
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:06,360
isn't tyranny, This isn't some sort of like men have authority,

922
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,559
you know, every man who has authority over every woman.

923
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,719
You know, there there are there's After two thousand years,

924
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:15,360
we have a very beautiful understanding of what this means

925
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,559
and that this order that God has created and it's

926
00:47:18,519 --> 00:47:20,119
and I think that that's one of the things that

927
00:47:20,119 --> 00:47:22,760
gets so tiresome is just sort of the sense of like, Okay,

928
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:24,440
this is not what you know, I have to explain

929
00:47:24,519 --> 00:47:26,840
over and over again what I don't mean, you know,

930
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:27,920
I don't mean that.

931
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 2: Men are are tyrants, and you know, on and on.

932
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 3: So I think that that's really where we have a

933
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,360
lot of work to do, is just in terms of

934
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,679
helping people understand the subtlety of it, and also the

935
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,920
fear that women have in terms of first of all,

936
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:49,039
recognizing that we're not meant to be just like another

937
00:47:49,119 --> 00:47:52,639
mother to our husbands, that that there's a real order there.

938
00:47:52,679 --> 00:47:53,519
Speaker 2: And I think that, you.

939
00:47:53,559 --> 00:47:55,280
Speaker 3: Know, one of the things that I think is incredibly

940
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:59,320
attractive in men, and having been around a lot of

941
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:01,559
seminary and men who are going to be pres you

942
00:48:01,559 --> 00:48:04,360
always see there's women around them, and some of it's

943
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:08,000
because they're comfortable with them, but there's also this element

944
00:48:08,079 --> 00:48:11,320
of there's something very attractive about men who really want

945
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:17,079
to hear God's heart. They really are men after pursuing

946
00:48:18,159 --> 00:48:20,760
with you know, making every sacrifice to really know what

947
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,599
God wants. And I think that that's an important thing

948
00:48:23,599 --> 00:48:26,119
that we have to communicate to men and to women too.

949
00:48:26,119 --> 00:48:29,760
It's just that understanding of we've got to stop fudging

950
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,000
this and allowing women just to take over because it's

951
00:48:32,039 --> 00:48:33,760
too It's a lot easier to do that than to

952
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,280
fight and vice versa, that we have to start really

953
00:48:37,599 --> 00:48:40,400
holding people accountable for what it is that their responsibilities

954
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,039
are and for women to stop taking over what men

955
00:48:44,079 --> 00:48:46,480
are meant to do, and you know, vice versa, we

956
00:48:46,519 --> 00:48:49,239
don't the last we need or you know, submissive men.

957
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:54,400
So I think that even you know, having for the

958
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,599
conversations about this can be incredibly helpful and fruitful, even

959
00:48:57,639 --> 00:49:00,880
just in our daily lives with friends and you know,

960
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:04,119
Bible studies and looking at the way other people have

961
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,039
lived this well can be really instructive and help us

962
00:49:07,039 --> 00:49:10,039
sort of fill out that moral imagination of how this

963
00:49:10,119 --> 00:49:15,000
is supposed to look instead of always faulting defaulting back

964
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,719
into this you know, oh, she's a doormat or she's

965
00:49:19,159 --> 00:49:22,440
the empowered overlord of a woman. You know, we have, right,

966
00:49:22,679 --> 00:49:25,079
there's a lot more beauty and nuance in the middle

967
00:49:25,119 --> 00:49:27,119
of that that that I think we need to start

968
00:49:27,119 --> 00:49:30,400
looking at more carefully and with you know, a lot

969
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:31,119
more precision.

970
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: I think your your most recent answer kind of gets

971
00:49:35,039 --> 00:49:38,960
to this, but how do you think that feminism specifically

972
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:44,320
has harmed Christian marriages? And maybe sort of a sister

973
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:50,039
question to that is, how can husbands help their wives

974
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,039
not to fall into the traps of feminism, because even

975
00:49:53,079 --> 00:49:56,079
women who are married can so often get sucked into

976
00:49:56,079 --> 00:49:58,760
these algorithms, are sucked into group chats or you know,

977
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:02,039
wine mom called sure or whatever it is, where it's

978
00:50:02,559 --> 00:50:04,840
it's the norm to gossip about your husband and it's

979
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,840
the norm to tell each other that you know, you

980
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,320
can have it all and you know, I mean, there's

981
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:15,159
so much bad messaging that comes from woman to women

982
00:50:15,679 --> 00:50:18,639
and even two married women who have children. So not

983
00:50:18,679 --> 00:50:21,840
only how has how has feminism harmed Christian marriages? But

984
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,599
also how can husbands help their wives not to be

985
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,320
swept into that short of telling them to you know,

986
00:50:27,519 --> 00:50:30,000
encouraging them to log off and get off social media,

987
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:31,679
because I think that's a start. But how else?

988
00:50:33,079 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, that's really huge.

989
00:50:34,519 --> 00:50:36,519
Speaker 3: I mean I think part of that is just first

990
00:50:36,559 --> 00:50:40,719
really understanding just how manipulated we are on an emotional

991
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,760
level and bombarded by this kind of content all the time.

992
00:50:44,559 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 2: Being really picky about who it is that you follow,

993
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,000
what it is that you watch, how you spend your time.

994
00:50:49,079 --> 00:50:49,679
That's one thing.

995
00:50:50,159 --> 00:50:54,039
Speaker 3: Obviously filling up you know, having a regular regime of

996
00:50:54,679 --> 00:50:57,880
prayer and of silence. I think those are incredibly important

997
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:02,639
and really understanding just how to kind of process your emotions,

998
00:51:02,679 --> 00:51:06,280
like especially when you feel provoked and angry about something like, Okay,

999
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,639
what's really behind that? What who's where's that coming from?

1000
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:11,280
Is that the voice of God?

1001
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 2: You know?

1002
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 3: Learning how to discern those are those are really important things.

1003
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:17,880
And I think women, you know, we need to get

1004
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,079
back to this place where we understand, where we become steady.

1005
00:51:21,639 --> 00:51:25,679
There's something so compelling about women that are steady under pressure,

1006
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:28,320
or they're steady under you know, when the gossip starts,

1007
00:51:28,639 --> 00:51:31,519
there's there's something really powerful the woman that saysn't say anything,

1008
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,519
you know, So that is the other piece is really

1009
00:51:35,599 --> 00:51:40,360
understanding female steadiness. We have the vice of We have

1010
00:51:40,639 --> 00:51:45,639
an attraction to the vice of both envy and and distraction,

1011
00:51:46,079 --> 00:51:51,320
and that means that the opposing virtue is not envy,

1012
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,400
not comparing ourselves to others, but also being able to

1013
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:57,639
sort of be peaceful in the midst of turmoil. So

1014
00:51:57,679 --> 00:52:01,119
I think that those are important pieces. Obviously, our husbands

1015
00:52:01,159 --> 00:52:05,239
can help us dramatically in terms of you know, couples

1016
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:09,639
praying together, families praying together, reading the Bible together, you know,

1017
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:14,559
making your life focused more around Christ. And you know,

1018
00:52:14,599 --> 00:52:20,320
what we know builds up culture and just having frank conversations.

1019
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:21,800
You know, one of the things that I know as

1020
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:26,440
a as a woman, that I've really come to value

1021
00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:29,960
is do people know that they can disagree with me?

1022
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,360
And this is something that I cannot say in every

1023
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:35,280
error in my life. I'm good at this, Yet I'm

1024
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:37,679
still working on this a lot, because I think all

1025
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:40,599
of us are really recovering feminists, and so many responses

1026
00:52:40,679 --> 00:52:42,920
has been so ingrained in us. But I think that's

1027
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,159
an important thing too, is do I have the humility

1028
00:52:45,199 --> 00:52:48,440
to listen and to you know, let other people express

1029
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,639
their views and take them on and change, you know, accordingly.

1030
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 2: So that's important.

1031
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:55,840
Speaker 3: And then I think, more than anything though, it goes

1032
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,639
back to that idea of what's local, loving what is local,

1033
00:52:59,679 --> 00:53:03,519
Loving your colleagues the best you can, being present to them,

1034
00:53:03,679 --> 00:53:07,599
meeting their needs, loving your children, loving your spouse, prioritizing

1035
00:53:07,599 --> 00:53:12,079
those needs. And you know, it's amazing how even countercultural

1036
00:53:12,119 --> 00:53:15,239
it is to say we should really prioritize the needs

1037
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:18,840
of our husbands. And yet you know what could be

1038
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:22,199
more basic, who's closer to you, you know, and even

1039
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:26,159
just recognizing what happens when we love others better, they're

1040
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,960
able to love us better, and just that the goodness

1041
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,199
that then kind of come springs, you know, the fruitness,

1042
00:53:31,199 --> 00:53:33,519
that fruit that springs from that is really important too.

1043
00:53:33,639 --> 00:53:36,480
So anyway, I could probably keep talking about this in

1044
00:53:36,559 --> 00:53:38,119
terms of specifics, but I think.

1045
00:53:39,679 --> 00:53:41,079
Speaker 2: You know, these aren't hard things.

1046
00:53:41,079 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 3: It's just a matter of kind of unplugging from what

1047
00:53:43,519 --> 00:53:46,199
it is that we've grown used to and really recognizing

1048
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:49,960
the way those things are manipulating us and using us

1049
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,400
for friends that are not at all Christian.

1050
00:53:53,159 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I'm sure there's a lot of overlap here,

1051
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,760
but just a slightly different angle on kind of the

1052
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,519
same question. And say, there's a woman listening to this

1053
00:54:01,679 --> 00:54:04,840
who is thinking, I'm a Christian and I would have

1054
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,360
identified as a feminist, but I'm tracking with you. I'm

1055
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,159
seeing that this is not this is not really compatible.

1056
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:13,719
What are some concrete steps that she can take to

1057
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:18,559
exit this sort of you know, because it's feminism truly

1058
00:54:18,679 --> 00:54:21,559
is like the water that women swim in. It it's

1059
00:54:21,679 --> 00:54:26,079
so pervasive it colors everything. So what are some concrete

1060
00:54:26,079 --> 00:54:29,800
steps women can take to sort of deprogram their minds

1061
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,360
or retrain their minds, you know, taking every thought captive,

1062
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:36,400
to obey Christ, to get away from these practices that

1063
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:41,079
are inherently anti man, anti God, whatever, and to really

1064
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:45,239
like get back and be informed in their womanhood by

1065
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:46,400
a biblical worldview.

1066
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:47,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1067
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:49,320
Speaker 3: Well, one of the things I do in the book,

1068
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:51,480
and of course, you know, my first suggestion is read

1069
00:54:51,519 --> 00:54:54,960
the read the book, but something wicked. But one of

1070
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:56,719
the things I do in the book is look at

1071
00:54:57,039 --> 00:55:00,199
really the role of men in a positive way. I

1072
00:55:00,199 --> 00:55:02,880
think this is something that's been completely absent. You know,

1073
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,880
our commercials are devaluing men, denigrating men, making them look

1074
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:10,000
like it's you know, TV shows, on and on.

1075
00:55:11,039 --> 00:55:12,840
Speaker 2: But really to start seeing what it is.

1076
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:17,119
Speaker 3: What it's a value that comes with a patriarchy and hierarchy.

1077
00:55:17,159 --> 00:55:18,960
And you know, one of the things that's amazing is

1078
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,039
just to see, like the way the military functions. And

1079
00:55:21,519 --> 00:55:24,719
we value this in corporate America because women are in

1080
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:27,840
that hierarchy, so we understand how it works. And in

1081
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:29,960
the military obviously, but if you can just see the

1082
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:35,199
way that men mobilizing and moving out in smaller groups,

1083
00:55:35,599 --> 00:55:39,119
but every person, every man in that group has an

1084
00:55:39,119 --> 00:55:41,119
important role to play. And I think this is one

1085
00:55:41,119 --> 00:55:44,199
of the best gifts that men have the women don't

1086
00:55:44,199 --> 00:55:48,280
always have, is that they don't toss people aside in

1087
00:55:48,679 --> 00:55:51,800
those dynamics because they realize everybody has something to contribute.

1088
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 2: So understanding that it's.

1089
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,719
Speaker 3: Important understanding even the role that men play in society,

1090
00:55:56,800 --> 00:56:00,920
like every matriarchy that has ever existed up being ghetto

1091
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:05,639
wised and losing its wealth because men and fathers are

1092
00:56:05,679 --> 00:56:09,360
the ones who are like they're the guardians of like

1093
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:12,320
a hydraulic dam. They hold in the gifts of the

1094
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:14,760
children until the children are ready to use those gifts,

1095
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,679
like their sexuality, or they're the ones that are saying, okay,

1096
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:19,320
it's time for you to leave the nest.

1097
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:24,079
Speaker 2: You know you're ready. You know, especially sons showing them.

1098
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 3: You know, they were all those rights of passage that

1099
00:56:26,519 --> 00:56:30,559
used to happen, giving them responsibility, giving them experiences where

1100
00:56:30,599 --> 00:56:32,800
they could actually fail that they had to rise the

1101
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:37,119
occasion to succeed in. So I think, you know, aside

1102
00:56:37,119 --> 00:56:39,119
from the things that I've already said about social media

1103
00:56:39,159 --> 00:56:41,079
and our emotions, I think the biggest thing is to

1104
00:56:41,159 --> 00:56:44,360
really start seeing because the patriarch is very invisible in

1105
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:46,800
our culture. We don't value it until things go wrong

1106
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,239
or until you know my own case, when we had

1107
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,039
an addition built on our home and I was like,

1108
00:56:52,159 --> 00:56:52,960
it's all men.

1109
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:55,800
Speaker 2: Here, but where are all the women who are putting, you know,

1110
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:56,559
doing the roof.

1111
00:56:56,639 --> 00:56:58,480
Speaker 3: And I think they showed up when they did the

1112
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:00,800
painting and then when they cleaned up, but otherwise it

1113
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:04,800
was all men pouring the concrete and whatnot. So I

1114
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,360
think that could be really worthwhile thing to do. And

1115
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,400
you know, the other thing too, is really understand the

1116
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,880
way in which men love women. This is something I've

1117
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:15,920
never been able to do well because it requires I

1118
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,559
could probably do it with poetry, but I think, you know,

1119
00:57:18,599 --> 00:57:21,199
when the way men talk about women when they don't

1120
00:57:21,239 --> 00:57:24,880
know that they're listening, for example, poetry or music lyrics,

1121
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:27,320
you get a real sense, I think of what it

1122
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:30,519
is that that men value about women. And it's usually

1123
00:57:30,519 --> 00:57:33,320
not because she's bossy, nagging and you know, in a

1124
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:37,679
pantsuit like there's something much more tender and frail. And

1125
00:57:37,719 --> 00:57:40,039
there's something about the way in which women feel like

1126
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:42,840
allow men to feel that they're home and they're safe

1127
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:47,639
and they're cared for. You know that those are important

1128
00:57:47,639 --> 00:57:49,760
things I think for us to realize that instead of

1129
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:51,880
sort of feeling like we need to check these boxes

1130
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:56,719
of you know, our own prowess and skill set. We

1131
00:57:57,159 --> 00:57:59,599
need to really look at what is it that we are.

1132
00:58:00,039 --> 00:58:03,800
How is it the receiving others around us and being

1133
00:58:04,239 --> 00:58:06,320
in relationship in a healthy way with the men in

1134
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:09,400
our lives. I think that's another important aspect of it.

1135
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 1: Yes, that's such a good point about the music and

1136
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:15,199
the poetry and just that men and women's differences is

1137
00:58:15,199 --> 00:58:19,840
actually what makes things work. I think the platitude, you know,

1138
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,840
diversity of our diversity is our strength is such garbage

1139
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,400
until it comes to until it comes from marriage, and

1140
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,719
then I think sometimes that's exactly right. That's what makes

1141
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:31,000
that's what makes things work, is that we're different. So

1142
00:58:31,719 --> 00:58:35,440
everybody should read carries new book Something Wicked. You can

1143
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:37,679
get it on Amazon, but Carrie, I imagine there are

1144
00:58:37,679 --> 00:58:39,719
better places people could buy it. Where can they buy it?

1145
00:58:40,519 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, if people want to sign copy, you can get

1146
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:46,119
it at my own website, Theology off home dot com

1147
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:51,519
or the publisher Sofia Institute dot org is Sofia Institute

1148
00:58:51,519 --> 00:58:53,519
Press is the publisher so great?

1149
00:58:53,519 --> 00:58:55,480
Speaker 1: And where can people follow you? Where can they find you?

1150
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 3: Best place is Instagram or Theology ofhome dot com, and

1151
00:59:00,159 --> 00:59:03,000
I also have my own website, Carrie Gress dot com.

1152
00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:05,719
Speaker 1: Awesome, Carrie, I had such an awesome time talking to you.

1153
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:07,480
Thank you for writing this book, thank you for making

1154
00:59:07,519 --> 00:59:09,400
time to chat with me about it. I'm so excited

1155
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:10,760
for all the people who are going to buy the

1156
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:13,920
book now because they will get to hear all the

1157
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:16,239
great messaging as well. So thanks so much for your time.

1158
00:59:16,559 --> 00:59:17,599
Speaker 2: Thank you my pleasure.

1159
00:59:22,679 --> 00:59:25,239
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for tuning into this week's episode

1160
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:27,960
of the Kylie Cast. If you haven't done so already,

1161
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:31,360
please like and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, leave

1162
00:59:31,400 --> 00:59:34,199
us a five star review, and of course, go pick

1163
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:37,519
up a copy of Carrie's new book, Something Wicked, Why

1164
00:59:37,599 --> 00:59:41,440
Feminism Can't be Fused with Christianity. It's such an excellent read.

1165
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,400
It's a resource I will definitely be returning to time

1166
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:47,480
and time again. I will be back next week with

1167
00:59:47,639 --> 00:59:51,079
more so until then, just remember the truth hurts, but

1168
00:59:51,119 --> 00:59:59,119
it won't kill y'all.