Speaker 1: This is Rosemaye Ellen Guiley, and you're listening to Unknown
Origins Radio.
Speaker 2: We live in a world filled.
Speaker 3: If you're known, you trans handle the truth.
Speaker 2: I'm glad as hell.
Speaker 4: I'm not gonna like this anymore. We will not go
quietly into the night. We will not vanish, not a night.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Unbound Origins.
Speaker 5: Radio, and good evening everybody. Welcome to another edition of
Unknown Origins Radio, where we talk about everything having to
do with the strange and paranormal here on the Dark
Matter Radio Network. I'm your host, Mark Johnson, and joining
me is our co host mister Bruce Pearson.
Speaker 4: How are you tonight, Bruce?
Speaker 1: Great? Thanks Mike. How are you guys doing?
Speaker 5: I'm doing good, doing good, And as usual, we have
mister Keith Rowland producing in the background.
Speaker 4: You know, we don't say this enough on the air.
Speaker 5: We say it off the air, but you know we
have to throw our kudos out to Keith. He produces
us every week here on Dark Matter, does a phenomenal job.
You know we wouldn't run as smoothly as we do
without him. So you know, Keith, we got to throw
you our kudos there. So welcome to another edition We're
gonna have a great guest here coming up in just
a few minutes before we get going. Of course, we
just you know, want to do our usual housekeeping things
that are coming up. We definitely wanted to bring up
the event that's coming up this Saturday, Bruce, I will
let you talk a little bit more about that, since
you've been really streaming lighting that the last few weeks.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I'm gonna be involved with it down in Westfield,
New Jersey with Bruce Dango. He has the premiere of
his documentary about his incident that kind of got him
involved in the paranormal when he was six years old.
The Steering Man is the name of the program. It'll
be premiered in Westfield from six to ten pm is
the time of the event, with dinner and there's some
entertainment and of course the Q and A and meet
and greet and all that neat stuff. And that's this
Saturday in Westfield, New Jersey. Steering Man. You can look
it up on the internet. There's a couple of tickets left.
I think he's got almost four hundred tickets sold at
this point, so it's pretty big venue. It's a very
nice haul We've done some fundraisers over the years with
the Ghost Hunters team for Touret syndrome, and they're going
to raise money this time for both Touret syndrome research
and also childhood cancer. So it's for a good cause.
If you're anywhere within traveling distance out of New York
Philadelphia area or anywhere in New Jersey, it's going to
be a good time. So has put a lot into
this thing for the last year or so and it's
a very well done program. Excuse me. And so you
can get a hold of me and market Dark Matter
Network at the Unknown Origins Radio on our website and
get some information. You go on the web and staring Man.
This should be easy to find and you can get
the information there.
Speaker 5: That's gonna sound like a great event. I really wish
I could make it. Unfortunately I'm tied up this weekend,
but definitely say hi to Bruce for me and.
Speaker 4: Let me know how the movie comes out. And you
know the movie the dvd.
Speaker 5: They are preparing premiering the movie this weekend, but it
is also available for purchase on DVD. Do you know
the website where it's available, No, but.
Speaker 1: I'll get it for next week once it's said the premiere.
I know he started doing some pre sales on it
and I don't have that information. It's a it's an
interesting I had it written down and I actually don't
have it with me right now, but I'll make sure
I have it for the listeners next week.
Speaker 4: Okay, great.
Speaker 5: You know, we've got a couple of other things that
are coming up to as we've mentioned before, and I'll
be promoting this for the next couple of months that
this June, Phenomenology one oh seven is coming back to
Pennsylvania outside of Gettysburg in York, Pennsylvania, and that'll be
June eighteenth through the twenty first. You can go to
their website at phenom Events dot com to get tickets
get a full lineup. They've got a lot of great guests,
a lot of big names in the paranormal and one
of the things they're really focusing on this year are
those people who have experienced the extreme hauntings, and they're
having the survivors from the Amityville Horror House, the original
children from the Amityville Horror the family from the haunting
in Connecticut that they made the movie about the movie,
the conjuring they have that family will be there as well,
our good friend Bill Bean and and so many other
people that have had these extreme hauntings. So that's the
theme for this year. And they've got a lot of
great guests. So you can go to Phenom Events dot
com see the full lineup, get tickets, get your hotel information. Uh,
you know, we've been there for the last several years.
It's really a fun event and it's a lot it's
it's a great time. You learn so much, get to
interact with everybody, especially in the vendor room. There's always
so much going on in the vendor room, the lectures,
there's you know, ghost hunts, a lot of different things.
So definitely check it out. If you need more information
on that, again, Phenom Events dot com, or you can
even feel free to contact us at Unknown Origins Radio
dot com and we can give you some more information.
Also wanted to point out on a personal note, really
excited to announce that today we launched with glannet Tye Public.
We launched a brand new book and we're very excited
about this. We have a new author who came on
were today. His name is Barry Durham. He's an author
out of the UK and he has previously self published
a series of novels based on the Demdike Witches the
Pendle which was you know in here in America when
we think of witches, we think of the Salem Witch Trials. Well,
in England they had their own version back in sixteen
oh two, which was the Pendle Witches, which were a
lot of people who were unfairly accused of witchcraft had
their homes and their properties seized by the town or
the state. It was a really scandal at the time.
And Barry who has written a wonderful novel called The
Demdike Legacy, and it's actually a paranormal mystery novel. It's
a detective novel with a paranormal edge to it and
dealing with some survivors of the descendants of the original
Pendle Witches and someone is killing off and they have
to buy band together with the police to solve this murder.
Speaker 4: I've read the book.
Speaker 5: It is really phenomenal and we're really happy to have
him on board. So that book launches today with glannet
Tye and is now available on our website at Glennettie
dot com and it's also available on Amazon dot com
and softcover and kindle format. We're actually going to try
to get Barry on the show here coming up in
the near future because you know, you know, as an author,
he's also a lecturer and he is he has a
great fascination for the history of England with the Pendle
witches and the witchcraft of the area, and I think
it'd be a great topic for the show.
Speaker 4: So we'll see what.
Speaker 5: We can do to get Barry on here in the
near future. But definitely check out the book glennety dot
or Amazon The dem Dyke Legacy.
Speaker 4: Great book.
Speaker 1: Well, congratulations to you and Irene also, and you guys
are really growing and leaps and bounce with the media
empire as I call it.
Speaker 5: You know, you know, we start off small little steps
and things are just happening, and we're just really really
excited about it. I mean, what makes me happy for
it And I'm not trying to turn this into a
self commercial here, but what I really enjoy doing is
helping other people get their stuff out there and published
and in the public eye. And that's what makes me
feel good, is getting somebody who normally wouldn't be able
to get their work out there and seen by the public.
You know, we help them publish, get their books out there.
We've worked out some distribution deals. We're going to be
hopefully our books are going to be in a lot
of the major bookstores here very soon. So we've got
a lot of things going and it's really been taken
off and it just makes me feel good that these
types of book, these really good books that people out
there writing, get to see the light of day that
they may not have with the traditional publishing companies.
Speaker 1: Well that's true, and there's a lot of good stories
that need to be told. So yeah, I'm looking forward
to reading this latest one you get out as soon
as I get a copy of my hands or get
an e book, And it sounds like a fascinating premise.
So look forward to having him on the air too.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, it'll be good.
Speaker 5: I just got to work out the time difference because
he's in England, so well, we'll see what we can
put together. But you know, on that note, I think
it's time to get on with our show tonight.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 5: We're really excited to welcome back tonight's guest. He was
on the show before just a few months ago. We
had such a great time talking to him that we
had to bring him back on the show because we
certainly did not get anywhere near to being able to
talk about everything we wanted to talk about that first time.
So we want to talk to welcome our guest, mister
Butch Witkowski. And Butch is the director at the UFO
Research Center of Pennsylvania. He's had a lot of years
experience with researching UFOs, the paranormal and even encryptid encounters
throughout the state of Pennsylvania. So Butch, welcome to the program.
Speaker 1: How are you tonight, I'm fine, Thanks for having me
back on.
Speaker 5: Well, thanks for coming on. And I know we were
actually talking a little bit. We already started some conversations
before the show and I had to stop and say, wait, wait,
this is great stuff.
Speaker 4: We need to save it for the show.
Speaker 5: But you know, we always seem to have us to
talk about. Just briefly, just for those people who may
not have heard you on our show before and want
to come back, you know, and are listening to for
the first time, can you just give our listeners just
a brief background of your background and how you got
into the UFO research.
Speaker 1: Sure, I've been in it now this is my twenty
sixtyear I believe started out with seeing something in the
sky I couldn't explain. While I was standing there with
other people, called the local police, sheriff's department, air Force base,
everything I could think of, radio stations, TV stations, and
I watched the object that was a good three hundred
feet long, at least six seven stories high, bronze and color,
a couple of pale green lights on the side, just
hovering above a mountain in Tucson, Arizona. My neighbor across
the street was standing outside looking at it also. He
was at that time director of Federal Prisons for the
tough for the state of Arizona and other western states.
And my other neighbor was a retired highway patrol officer.
And we all looked at it and we couldn't come
up with anything. It just hovered. It was silent, There
was no electronics bothered or anything like that, and it
just covered up very silently a little maybe fifteen hundred
two thousand feet high, and shot off to the like
a bullet. I've never seen anything that day. I could
probably see a bullet faster got involved in trying to
find out what it was. Of course, you know, when
you start out, you just collect books and a lot
of paper, and I really didn't have any directions. So
I joined MUFON, became a state section director and a
chief investigator start team member with them. After a few years,
decided that it wasn't quite going the way I wanted
it to go, so I started the UFO Research Center
in Pennsylvania in two thousand and nine. We have twelve groups.
We have one in two in Europe, one in England,
and one in Poland, and the ten remaining are in
the state different states in the United States. They're all
long time researchers. Their backgrounds are very varied, from helicopter
pilot to federal investigator to abduction researchers, psychics, you know,
the whole gamut, UFO researchers, crypto researchers, ghost hunters. And
it seemed to work out a whole lot better because
now instead of just you know, struggling with one report,
I have all these people I can throw a report
out to and count on their experiences in their backgrounds
to help decipher something that may be given me an
issue or giving them an issue. We'd publish a monthly
magazine on the net on our website called JAR, which
is a journal for Abnormal Abduction Research, which was started
originally in two thousand and six, I believe by Elady Douglas,
who passed away a year ago, and I talked to
her to get it up and running again, and which
I did, and it's a bi monthly thing. Unfortunately, she
died two days before it came out. She was a
longtime researcher twenty six years. Boy, she was a hard lady.
She was something to deal with. And the group is
continued to grow new members. We have a cold case unit,
four gentlemen that really I don't even tell anybody their names.
They just go about doing their business on cold cases,
which really works out really well. You know, when you
walk up to somebody and you're trying to get some
information and you tell them you're from such and such
a UFO group or whatever group, you know, they get
tight lipped or they just walk away laughing or whatever.
This way, they can get involved in a conversation with
that person and the person has no idea really who
they're talking to or what they're talking about, and they're
just telling you the truth. Usually and it's helped us
a great deal in a couple of cases that we're
working on now. We don't publish a case completed until
we're done with it. Those are on our website also.
And I guess the longest case, the shortest case that
we ever worked on was probably about a year and
a half. Most of them run between a year and well,
the one is running into what it's sixty year now,
But that's pretty much. It's just a pretty diverse group
of people that are really good at what they do
and helps us a lot. We help a lot of
other people and groups with information, database information or you know,
our mole units. We have two of those. So it's
just took something very small and made it into something
very workable, I guess is the best way to put it.
Speaker 5: You know, a lot of us have done that. You know,
we've done that with our paranormal group here in New Jersey.
You know, you got to start from somewhere, and it's
those groups that can grow and develop from there. I
mean there's a lot of groups that come and go
real quick, a lot of people who are into it
just for a quick thrill, and then there are the
longtime researchers who stay in and really start to make
a difference in the in the community and with the research.
Your group is definitely one of those, you know, and
getting into some of the topics that we wanted to
cover tonight, I know we started talking about some of
them off air. We and there's so many that I
that I can look at us going into and talking
about tonight. But one of the things we started talking
a little bit off air is encryptids. And I know
you've done some cryptid research as well, and you know,
we were talking a little bit off air about the
differences between you know, people who look at cryptids as
just undiscovered animals and then the paranormal.
Speaker 4: Side of it.
Speaker 5: So I was wondering if you could talk about some
of a couple of the cryptid cases that you've worked on.
Speaker 1: Well, the most recent case I think is probably the
strangest one because we got it about two months ago.
And this is a gentleman who's grown up in that area,
hunted that area state game land was walking is too
wime around the dogs, as he always did up a
fire lane. For somebody doesn't understand what a fire lane
in is just a path for fire trucks to come
in case there's a forest fire and nothing exciting happening.
Leaves the truck with the dogs and has them on
leashes and up the road they go, and about one
hundred and fifty yards away from the truck, these dogs
freak out. They go absolutely bananas. They start ripping and
tearing at the leashes. They're trying to get away from
him their head and they want a head to the woods.
And he doesn't see anything. He doesn't see any animals
or anything like that. And the dogs are at it
that bad that they are actually digging a hole with
their front paws, trying to get away from him to
get to whatever he didn't see. And then as he
looks up, he sees this entity creature, whatever you want
to call it, walk out of the walk out of
the right hand side of the road, out of the woods.
He describes it as about seven foot tall, could be
a little larger. Looked like a large man. It did
not resemble bigfoot or sasquatch in any way. It had
normal arm's legs, but very muscular, short, dark brown or
black hair covering the body, and no tail, no protruding
ears that he could see, and The thing that's struck
him as being the oddest thing out of a very
odd situation was it had a snout. And when he
says a snout, I asked him what he meant by that,
like long dog snout, wolf something like that. He said, no,
more like you'd see on a bulldog or a pug.
But it was a protruding snout. And it walked across
the road, walked into the other side, and the dogs
are still going bananas, and just goes out of sight.
So he calms the dogs down enough to go down
and get him back to the truck, which he does.
He retrieves a handgun, goes back up, can see exactly
where he was because of the hole in the ground
from the dogs. Walks into the woods on the right
hand side, sees nothing. He walks in the left hand side,
sees nothing. The oddest part to him was, now, this
guy's retired airline commercial pilot and Air Force pilot of
forty years, so he knows what he's looking at. He said,
it never looked at us, myself or the dogs. He said,
it walked straight ahead, paid no mind, like we were
never there. So he said, I don't know if I
saw an actual thing, or it was an apparition, or
he said, I just don't know what to say. So
he got back to me later that evening and he
said he was going to get some friends together and
they were going to go look the area up and
take the camera and whatever and see if they could
find any trace tracks, footprints. So they go there and
he said, we're right at the spot because there's the
hole from the dogs. And they walk into the right
hand side of the woods. Now, these guys are pretty
much armed to the teeth high powered rifles the whole
nine yards, which I told him that was not really
a good idea. But they walked in to the right side,
walked back in about fifteen hundred yards and see anything.
No broken trees, branches or nothing like that. They walked
back out. They all walk into the left side of
the road, to the other side of the road. They
get in about fifty yards and he said, we all stopped.
We all looked at each other and it was time
to get out of the dodge. And I said, what
do you mean And he said, look, he said, I'm
never going back there again. He said, I don't know
what's in there. I don't know what it was. I
can't describe the feeling other than total fear, even though
I was standing there with a high powered weapon in
my hand. He said, all I know is we all
had the same feeling at the same time, and we
all got back to the truck and went home. And
I'm never going back there again as long as I live.
So I checked with some other research that are close
to that area, and they related similar reports of not
so much the creature, but of people that were with
them while they were doing a research investigation who came
out of the woods, shaken, you know, tail white, and
just left, not to be coming back. And he said
that happened twice. So what is it. I have no idea.
When the weather breaks and I don't freeze to death,
just walk into my truck. We are going to go
up there and spend the weekend and see what we
can find. I know where the location is. He gave
me a road. He didn't give me an exact location,
but he told me the road where the gate was.
And when I checked with the other researchers, they said, yes,
we know where that gate is. We know where that
road is. So I'm pretty much sure I can get
to the same location or you know, within that general area.
But I have no explanation for it. I put it
out on the web page, I put it out on Facebook.
I put everywhere I could think of, and nobody can
back with anything because it does not look like a bigfoot.
It's the neck wasn't broad, the head wasn't pointy. I mean,
the arms weren't extra long. It wasn't a huge, huge,
eight ten foot, you know. He said it was a
good seven foot, maybe a little taller. But he said
it walked just like a man. It didn't lumber along.
And he said it just walked across the road like
we were not there and we didn't exist.
Speaker 5: Was it covered in hair like a bigfoot?
Speaker 1: Or very short, very short dark brown or black hair,
no clothing, no swinging arms, he said it just He said,
you would took the hair off the thing and put
him in a suit and had him walk across wouldn't
been any different than a tall man. So and now
I know there's this big flat going on in the
in the crypozoology bigfoot realm of interdimensional beings and humanoid
or animal bigfoot. But I can't go either way on it.
I have to keep an open mind on this because,
first of all, you know, without having you know, just
a great story told to me and other people kind
of backing up the story with what they said, it's
still not evidence of what happened. I can't say it's interdimensional.
I don't know if anybody could ever say what's interdimensional
and what's not. I mean, that's all kind of speculation
at this point, you know, like parallel worlds and all
that stuff that all very well may be, but you know,
there's not enough there to grasp onto to say, well, yeah,
that's what it was. And there's not enough to grasp
onto that that yes, that was a bigfoot or some
related creature. Now, one other thing to throw into the pot,
which was very disturbing, was through other researchers in that area.
They were doing an investigation, and they were walking up
an area close by, maybe a mile or two away,
and it was getting dark, and out of the woods
strolls a guy in military garb. Now I don't mean
the stuff he buys your local army and navy. This
guy had everything, full automatic weapon, all new gear, you know,
the gear that is issued now. And looked at them
and they looked at him, and they both looked as
surprised as at each other, and the guy said, I'm
just hunting some bear and turned around and walked back
into the woods and he disappeared. Uh huh. Now that's strange.
That is really strange. Now, not too far from that
area is Ssylvania had a nuclear reactor that sits right
in the middle of a state game lands. It's a
forbidden area, you know. It's all blocked off and closed
down in the early late nineteen ninety eight or ninety nine,
and the license was pulled in two thousand and one
or two. But it was put there early on in
the sixties to develop nuclear engines for private aircraft. And
so who knows what's going on. You know, it's one
of those things where without going and looking and snooping
around and sticking my head where it don't belong, you know,
at this point, really all I have is a story.
I mean, I have no I have some inroads to
information that's been gathered. But as far as saying what
it was he saw, was it interdimensional? Did it walk
across the it didn't see them, or he didn't see it.
So but the dogs, he said, are very docile. He's
had them since pupps. He said, they've never reacted like that.
And he said they saw long before I did. He
said there was a good two or three minutes before
that thing stepped out out of the woods. And he
said they already knew it was there beforehand. And at
first he thought, you know, it was a skunk or
bear or fear or something. But he said when that
walked out. I asked him what he did. He said,
I just froze and started staring at it and watching it.
He said, I didn't know what it was. I don't
know what it was going to do. And I said, well,
what would you have done had it turned you know
the face? You had to let the dogs go. I said, well, yeah,
good idea. But that's very strange. That's a very strange case.
I've tried to find other cases that mimic it, and
I can't find any. I can't even find something that
matches the description of the creature that he described.
Speaker 5: You know, there's a lot more are strange things going
on out there, and not only in this country but
in other countries, of cryptids that people see that are
just simply not undiscovered.
Speaker 4: Animals.
Speaker 5: They're just they look like some type of being, in
some cases possibly intelligent beings.
Speaker 4: I'll just bring it up.
Speaker 5: I asked her if she wanted to come on the air,
and she doesn't want to come on the air to
talk about it. But you know, before we were on
the show, my business partner Irene alan Block was talking
about to you about these creatures that she saw in
her garden once in her house in Wales that looked
like what we could only describe as the if you
think of the movie Predator when the predator was cloaked,
but you could still kind of see that outline even
though it was cloaked, and it looked something exactly like that.
There were two of them, two creatures, and she actually
watched one walk right up to her and then when
she said something or made some movement that she let
it know she could see it, it froze and then
slowly backed up and walked away. And you know, you
start to think about that. You know what somebody thinks
that right away. The first thought they would think is, well, aliens, well.
Speaker 4: Are you well, how do you know?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Exactly, you don't.
Speaker 1: Know, no, And if you don't keep an open mind,
doing this research and investigation and take everything into consideration,
you're just beating a dead horse. You might as well
just sit in your living room and watch cartoons. Because
when you get a report like this where there is
no explanation, and not only do you have the person
that sees the entity, but you have buddies that go
with in the next day, and they all get this
same feeling to get out of dodge. You know, we
need to leave, and we need to leave now. And
yet they're standing there, fully armed that they could probably
take on anything that came at them. Just said that's it,
We're not staying, and you know, they just all went
and they all I said to myself, well, what did
one guy say something? And another guy he said no,
we all stopped at the same time. And I said,
what did you feel? He said the only best way
I can tell you, butch He said it was fear,
unbridled fear, and we knew we had to leave. And
I went okay. And then talking to other researchers, they
had that happened twice twice to people that were with them.
Like I said, one came running out of the woods
for no reason, stone white and just kept on going,
and another group that was with them one time they
had the same thing, and they decided they were going
to leave because they never said what they saw, they
never said what they felt. They just said, we can't
be here right now. We've got to go. Are these
folks seeing what are they dealing with? What's walking around
in these woods or people's homes or whatever. It's it's
something that's not explainable. The first thing I thought of, well,
maybe you know, you hear a lot about dog man
and the Brian seech out in western Pennsylvania and his
wife do a lot of work on that, and I
haven't talked to him about this case yet, but I should,
I guess. But the descriptions don't match. I mean, the
dog men are seen on four on, running on all
fours or on hind legs, and they resemble a dog.
They have the long snout, you know, kind of like
weirwolf looking. He said this, No, he said, this did
not look like that. He said, this looked like a man.
The head was the same as a man, except for
this protruding snout, which he described as probably like a
bulldog that not long but not short, but kind of
just protruding, and he said it never really looked at me.
He said, it just walked out, walked across the road,
and one on the other side and that was it.
So again, what are we dealing with now?
Speaker 5: You know, the one thing that you mentioned about, they
all felt this intense sphere. There's two things on that
that I want to comment on in the research that
I've done in people I've talked with, you know, in
some bigfoot cases, there has been some theories that that Bigfoot,
possibly as other creatures, use a version of infrasound and
are able to generate an infrasound that actually causes people
to feel fear and it's used as a defense mechanism
to get people to turn and leave. But if you
also look in UFO cases, UFO cases, people who have
gone through what we would think of as the abduction experience,
you know, so many of them feel this overwhelming sense
of absolute sheer terror. Whitley Strieber in his books he
always described, you know, the absolute sheer, mindless terror that
he would feel during these situations, and to the point
where it seems like a lot of people, if they
start to think about it, realizing that the terror almost
is artificial, like they're being made to feel that way.
And you know, maybe in this case, when these hunters
see this creature and they feel this terror, maybe it
is a form either a type of infrasound, that is,
you know, that it's being used as a defense mechanism
to keep you know, keep danger away, or maybe even
if you if you look on the paranormal side, maybe
a psychic level that they're able to manipulate people's emotions,
just like I think is what happens sometimes in these
abduction scenarios where emotions are controlled to a certain extent
for whatever reason.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there are you know, there are a lot
of cases that are out there. I'm sure you've read
and Bruce is read and I know I've read where
you know, people start talking about telepathy and they're told
not to go there, or not to do this, or
not to be afraid or whatever, and they don't know
who they're talking to. They don't see anybody. You have
folks that sasquatch hunters in the northwestern part of the
United States that have done the same thing. You know,
they're sitting by a campfire or they're getting their packed
together and next thing you know, they get this feeling
of I need to leave, and they either leave equipment
or they grab their gear and they just take off
and they have no explanation for it. It's just they
just like you said, it could be a defense mechanism,
which does make a lot of sense if there's if
there's not going to be any one on one contact
and they have that ability to put into somebody's mind
you need to leave now or you or think bad
things are going to happen or whatever. I mean, it's logical.
I mean it makes sense. But again, you know, it's
it's such a dark area, uh, and these cases of
people seeing entities, whether they're dark shadows in a room
or they are clouds on a ceiling that dissipate, or
beings shaped, beings that are almost looked translucent. I mean,
this is there are so many weird things going on,
and really this stuff has only come out in the
last two years that you know, people are coming forward
with this stuff and they're scared to death. I mean
they don't they don't even want to talk about it.
Like this guy here, he said when he was done
talking to me, he said, that's it. He said, I'm finished.
I told you everything I have. Everything happened. This is
the way it happened. He said, do with it as
you please, he said, just be careful. That was it.
That was the end of the story.
Speaker 4: You know what, if you look turn it around.
Speaker 5: You know there's people who have these experiences being in
an area and then they get do overfilm overwhelming feeling that.
Speaker 4: They have to leave.
Speaker 5: What about those people in UFO cases who get the
overwhelming feeling to turn down this dark road, yeah and
do something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it works both ways. I mean, I mean there
are cases where and this long before GPS is that
put you on the wrong road where people said, you know,
they were driving home, driving home, the same way that
they went every day all their lives, and they had
this overwhelming feeling to make a right hand turning up
this road, or go up this highway and then make
another turn, and you know they were being directed to
go somewhere. And then of course then whatever happens happens
with the abduction scenario. But yeah, that's that's happened a
lot back at a couple of details this area, and
it was in Pennsylvania where they had the nuclear reactors supposedly, yes,
oh yeah, oh yeah, and what area of pency was
that it's in Let me see here, it's between two counties,
but it's it's actually between Center and clear Fuel. It
takes in It's right, it's right between them. There's a
huge state game land, and I mean it's huge. It's
there's a lot of thousands of acres and dead center
in this uh uh area since this uh let me
pull my file up here while I'm talking about this. Uh,
it's it was actually started as just a research center
for development of different types of engines for aircraft and
it went on for a while. I understand that it
was not very a lot of let's put it this way,
A lot of money was poured into it and they
got a lot of nothing out of it, Okay, And
uh the folks that were running it were uh military
and uh like homing aircraft and they were trying to
attach a nuclear device, a nuclear engine to a small aircraft.
And this would have been for commercial use, not military use,
because they already had it. Uh. And the area is
the Quehanna Wildlife Area if people want to look that up.
It's q U E h A n n A. It's uh.
It borders three counties Cameron, Clearfield and Elk And if
you just do a wiki on it, I'm sure it's
in wiki. If you do a wiki on it, they
actually show you a map and they show you the
restricted zone which is right inside this huge and it's
a huge gang land. What's a city. So for reference
for listeners that the nearest city would be let's see,
let me look here once the nearest city he would be.
And while you're doing that, let me let me explain
to your context. Ironically, one of the jobs that Stanton
Freeman had was working on nuclear power plants for aircraft.
I believe it was in the fifties, you know, because
he trained as a nuclear physicist. But it's interesting because
you know that was I believe with hype and they
may be mistaken, but I just found that interesting that
they were trying to develop a nuclear actor to be
used for aircraft propulsion. And there is really no small
towns around there, but they are all broken up into township.
So if somebody would look up Benezette Township, b N
E Z E T T E or Covington, they would
find it. But if they very weak documentation on the
web about this soci if they go to the Quihana
Wildlife on Wikipedia, the whole story is there. It's forty
eight thousand acres. Pretty good piece. Yeah, And it was
the people that were actually running it. Curtis Wright Corporation
bought like eighty square miles of state forest for research
in nuclear power jet engines. And of course you have
the west branch of the Susquehanna River close by for water.
So but I guess they started finding some of the
radioactive isotopes up there. They were like stordium ninety and
cobalt sixty. And it continued into two thousand and two.
It cost thirty million dollars to build, and then the
nuclear license was terminated in two thousand and nine. Wow,
not long ago, No, but it's it's a restricted area
and it's on the map on Wikipedia shows you the
restricted area. That's a fascinating story. I mean then and
of itself. Was one group up there actually a research
Bigfoot research group in that area lives close by, and
they had taken and found a course. They were there
and found a core sample laying there, jeez, And they
took the core sample home. And the way the guy
was saying to me, he says, you know, we're looking
at this thing, and he says kind of weird looking.
And a babor came in and said, well, did anybody
check this for radiation? And they said, well, no, we
know that kind of equipment, and he said, well I do.
So he went home and came back and he said,
you need to bury this right now. He said, it
almost pined the needle coach. I mean, if you got
that kind of stuff laying around, and and you know
the isotopes that were using were strodium ninety and cobalt sixty,
I mean, all they would have had to do was
stay in the room with that core sample for a
couple hours and they probably wouldn't be around. Yeah, I
wouldn't stick that in your pocket and right around the
car for a couple of days, that's for sure. And
I forget what they said it costs to clean it up. Wow,
it was. It was outrageous the money. But because it
was just there's radioactive and toxic wastes buried there, so beauty.
That's why they probably still haven't restricted I would think.
So that's probably a little Hanford site here for Pennsylvania
and that area. When we did some research on the
area that was really the biggest group of Susquehanna and
Iroquois Indians that lived in the United States lived in
that total that that wildlife area still lived there. I'm
sure that'll bode well for their health, probably into the
groundwater and everything else. Do you feel there's a correlation
there for with uh, perhaps that that facility and what's
been sighted in the area with bigfoot? I'm kind of
putting it that way in my mind. You know, first
of all, you got the creature, and then you have
the military guy come stopping out of the woods hunting
bear not with an automatic rifle in this count in
this state, and then you have this which is in
you know, within a couple mile. It just it doesn't
make a whole lot of sense. I mean, if they
were going to clean this place up, and they said
they cleaned it up, why is it still a restricted
area and fenced off in all that stuff that people
can pay as it guarded? I mean, are you aware
of nobody nobody, no guards or anything like that. But
I mean it can't be that secure that these guys
could walk in and pick up a core sample. Wow.
I mean, so the other how many other people have
taken a core sample and just like stuck in the
garage or maybe put it on the mantel and say, oh,
I got this up with the old nuclear site or something.
I mean, if anybody's listening and they got any of
that stuff, they need to get rid of it and
bury it deep really quick because strodium ninety alone is very,
very deadly, and add cobalt sixty to that, and I
mean it's unbelievable.
Speaker 5: It's just amazing that that is left lying around. Yeah,
I mean, let's just not talk about the fact that
how irresponsible that is.
Speaker 1: Well, not only that, but I saw some pictures. I
don't remember what I saw them. Now there's probably on
the internet, but I saw some pictures of the place
and it was graffiti on the walls. So if there's
graffiti on the walls, of course that means kids are
getting in there. So we got kids in there, and
we got live core samples laying around that have already
been tested to be positive. So this is not good.
This is really not good. No, and who knows what,
Like you said, what residual was in the ground and
in the water for the water, you know, some poor
guy up there camping or doing some hunting because the
hunting area around it is all open. So they go
downstream and they fill up their canteen. They don't know
what they're drinking. Well, the plumes they get into an aquifer,
I mean, you know, but this is not uncommon unfortunately
with the military and the US government. I mean, half
of Cape Cod's water supply is Philadoia do to drop
in everything that you can think of Air Force Base
there on, and it's it's really a hot spot for
campers and hikers in the summertime. There's no permanent residence
in that whole area. A lot of cross country skiing
in the winter. There are no vehicles allowed in the area.
But it's just and and one of the things, uh,
the Autobahn Society hasn't listed as one of the most
important bird areas in the state of Pennsylvania. Oh that's good.
It's easy to track them when they glow in the dark, exactly,
you know, Mark, But just not to get off on
this topic, but our wonderful garden state. You go down
to Lakehurst and you know, they were dumping benzene and
every bloody other thing and into the you know, into
the ground out there, and they polluted most of the
water down around McGuire and Lakehurst in that whole area.
Speaker 5: And there's a big scandal that the seventies wasn't there
or sure Love Canal or whatever it was.
Speaker 1: The Philadelphia Navy are built built some of their docks
by taking drums, filling them with sand and hydraulic fluid
when they were refitting ships, burying the drums on top
of each other, and building bulkheads to add extra piers.
And that's right along the Delaware River. So I mean,
you could go on for hours of this this type
of environmental abuse. But you know, nuclear radiation. Not to
bring it in, but anybody who wants to check into
nuclear uh, the problems with nuclear fallout just go type
in on the internet. You take a look the plumes
out of Fukushima. Oh if we ever heard of that.
That's been going on for four years now. I guess
there's somewhat Yeah. I mean, if you want to go
back to what kind of damage is done from this
stuff being thrown around and gotten rid of before there
were actually loss against it, look at Love Canal, right,
you know I've driven past that, and it's this this
whole town that's a ghost town of course, because they
were using polluted oil to keep the dust down on
the roads, the back roads and stuff. But it polluted everything, polluted,
the groundwater polluted, the local creeks got into the houses.
The rate of cancers were unbelievable. And you know, I
know when we go up, we have radiation gear and
we have radiation detectors and isotope detectors and stuff, and
then I'll tell you what We're going to be dressed
to the kilt with everything, because I'm not taking any
kind of chance.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, you bring up an interesting point because
not just with this type of investigation. I mean, we
talked with our good friend David Rowntree, and you know
some of the investigations he's been doing on the paranormal
side where he has been using his equipment and has
actually been able to measure what he considers to be
singularities or Einstein rosenbridges opening by these gamma ray bursts
that seem to indicate in paranormal terms whether a portal
is opening. Activity seems to happen during those times. And
there were a couple of investigations that he did one
last year over at the Shanley Hotel where the gamma
rays that were coming off of that.
Speaker 4: He was measuring.
Speaker 5: We're starting to get to dangerous levels where they had
to keep people out of the rooms. So then it
starts making you think, well, you know, these paranormal investigators
we go into places, and we're constantly doing these investigations,
and we're going to all these paranormal spots, and the
one piece of gear that we don't take with us, YEP,
is a something to measure the radiation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know it's get you know, I put
on our website, on our upour coup website, on Facebook
all the equipment that we carry, not all, but most
of it. And I had somebody send me a note
one time said well, why do you carry radiation gear?
Why would you carry radiation gear for paranormal investigations. I said,
you should carry radiation gear no matter where you go.
You spend almost one thousand dollars for an infrared camera
or a multi spectral spectrum camera, and you don't buy
one hundred and fifty dollars radiation detector. Now what sense
does that make?
Speaker 4: Exactly?
Speaker 1: I said, you got rd on't you've got residual radiation,
and you don't know what's underground. You don't know why
that house is abandoned. You don't know why people come
out of the house they don't feel well, or they're dizzy,
or they think they had some kind of contact with
a spirit. And you know, if you held a meter
up to them, they'd probably light up like a Christmas tree. So,
you know, people need to really think about what they're
doing and where they're going, especially the folks that go
to these old factories and stuff. You know, you don't
know what was done in those factories. I mean a
lot of them were during the war. They made weapons,
they made bombs, they made bullets, I mean the chemicals
that were used. I mean the place could be polluted
with it. But you know, you're down there stomping around
the water and hoping to get a picture of a
ghost or something, and you don't know what you're standing
in or what you're breathing. And you know, caution is
always the first thing in any investigation. I don't care
if it's UFOs or ghosts of paranormal sasquatch. If you're
out there and you haven't taken the cautions to protect
yourself and others that are with you now, shame on you. Well, yes,
I think you know. I actually had this discussion a
couple of times with people said, you know, I can
remember in the UH I think it was called the
Levittown Lunatic Asylum. Here's a one hundred and fifty year
old tunnel system. Just everything slathered in asbestos. You've got
paint coming off the walls, which you know are filled
with lead, the dust, the mold in these wet, damp buildings,
and everybody's trucking around, no mask on or anything. No,
just the obvious hazards that are there in an old
building would be enough to make. And then you got
people just you know, trotting along kicking up this dust
and you're breathing it directly in over a period of
six or eight US. And then what amazes me is,
you know, and I've gone out in a couple of
investigations with some other groups, and you know, they showed
you their first aid kit, which is a little bigger
than a pack of cigarettes, right, and I'm going like,
come here, I want to shave something and take them
over to the truck and open the truck and we say,
see that big blue I go up there, that's a
trauma kit, right, I said, because if you fall and
break your leg, that little kit you have isn't going
to mean anything. But that blue kid up there has
splints in it, right, or an air split or whatever. Paramedic,
believe me, you're walking around old building with all kinds
of junk laying around, sharp edges, rusted pipes. Yeah, there
was a there was a guy, I believe. I think
it was a New Jersey group, Northern Northern New Jersey,
I believe, where the guy walked into a nail. Yeah,
and you know, uh, impaled himself on a nail that
was sticking through a wall and didn't do anything about it.
Of course, got in effected. He damn near died. But
I mean he's okay. But just the fact that nobody
even had anything or thought to, you know, stop the
bleeding or try to control the bleeding, or had some
kind of antiseptic to apply, or or or or anything,
or even take him to the hospital. Three days later
when he wakes up in his head swallowing up, you know,
and then he goes to the hospital. So people need
to exhort caution a lot, whether it's there in the woods,
or they're in an old house or whatever. I mean,
you know, you see these things on YouTube where the
guys walk on the steps and the steps give it way.
Fortunately they catch themselves, but you know, there's got to
be somebody out there to win through the floor.
Speaker 5: You know, I'm even watching in you know, my guilty
Pleasure show like Ghost Adventures. It's funny watching them now
that they've been on for several seasons and now whenever
they're going into these buildings, now they're now they're throwing
on the respirators. And you know, because they learned the
hard way. They all got respiratory problems from going in
these damp buildings with whatever, dust and mold and asbestos
and whenever they encounter they weren't protected before and now
they're paying the price.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like Bruce said, you know, you have
no idea what you're walking around in. You have no
idea what was there. You have mold and you have lead,
and you have I mean, who knows what you're walking
around And it's just amazing to me that people just
you know, you see them walking around and I've seen
it firsthand. Flip flops flip flops and shorts and a
T shirt. And okay, so it's hot outside, that doesn't
mean you shouldn't have one a good pair of boots
and long pants, you know what I mean, and a respirator.
But you know, people do what they do and I'll
probably never ever understand it, but it's the way people
do things, and I just try to impart a lot that.
You know, safety is a big concern. I mean, it's
a lot of fun, you know, and it's a night out,
and it depends on type of research you are. You're
either going out for fun and games or you're going
out to really see if you can find something. But
if you're not prepared for the worst, I mean, you
better not go. Just like walking through cemeteries at night
with no flashlight. Yeah yeah, I mean, and it's not
very forgiving when you catch up, no grant, it doesn't
give exactly right, yeah, exactly. You know. There's one of
the there's an interesting point that you brought up early
in your discussion about your background that I think needs
to be reiterated, and that is the the these cases
are not snap your fingers. And you know, most people
think that this old house would rebuild the house in
twenty eight minutes, and that these cases all take place
or reviewed and done, you know, in twenty eight minutes
or an hour, the length it takes of the length
of most of your cases from beginning to end. I
don't think that's a point that most people understand. This
is not a hit and run type of business by
any means. Now, could you talk about why it takes
so long for the listeners that are familiar with the procedures. Sure,
I think that's an important aspect of it. Okay, Well,
well let's take a We'll start out with a paranormal case. Okay,
So you get somebody to calls you and they say
they have something wrong with something's going on in the home.
So now the first thing you want to do is
get all the information with them, what they got, what
they're going. You need to visit them, showing empathy of
what it is because you don't know what's going on.
And then when you get back and you start your
you start to do the investigation. One of the things
you want to do is research the house, when was
it built, how many people live there, was there anything
strange that happened at the house, You know, like, uh,
was there a murder at the house? Was there? Well,
you know, anything, just anything, anything you can dig up
on the house, the property itself, that's number one. So
you've got all that stuff now, and uh, maybe you
could track down a couple of the past owners to
see if they've had anything like that happening to them.
And then when you do the investigation, you don't walk
around with the person that is reporting this. You know,
show me what you're seeing and where you're seeing it.
And once you get that all down, then you can
start with your equipment, setting up your equipment and your
cameras and all that stuff and go around and check
to see if you've got hotspots or to see if
you've got any any readings, whether it be E M
F or radiation or whatever. Questions you should be asking,
are you know, has anybody gotten sick in the house
or anybody continually getting sick in the house. I mean,
you can be talking about just a house right on gas.
Look at the position of the beds or the beds
close to electrical sockets. You know, EMF can do a
we can really wreck your head. So if the guy's bed,
the guy's complain he can't sleep, or he's getting nightmares,
or he's waking up screaming in the middle of night.
He's waking up seeing stuff. And you see that this
pillow is right up against a duplex plug. He needs
to move that bed because APA says that, you know,
to be proper away from to get away from EMF
from electrical outlets, you need to be between five and
six feet away. So his bed needs to be five
or six feet away. And we did do that with
one case, and the guy got back to us and
said that must have been in he said, because I
have no issues anymore. So there are a lot of
things to look at. You know, Researching and investigating is
more than just taking a report and talking to somebody
and hanging up the phone or going to the house
and talking to him and gone home after he took
a few pictures and this, that and the other thing.
And it depends on the researcher. I mean, I've had
people call me up and started complaining about somebody that
was researching their case and they want us to take
it over, and we will not do that. If somebody
else is investigating it, that's their baby. Where the guy
sat for two hours talking to people and then asked
them if they had a pensil and paper where he
could take notes. After two hours cheese. So you know,
if you're going to do this, you need to do
it properly. If you don't know how to do it properly,
get a hold of somebody that's been doing it a
long time. Ask if you can ride along with him.
Ask if you can just go along and watch that
be that observer. You know, that's the way you're going
to learn. And there's people out there that have really
good backgrounds in investigations for insurance companies, police department. They
couldn't investigate a siding if their life depended on it,
because you take a UFO siding. I don't know how
many hundreds and hundreds of reports I've read where nobody
checks the weather. No, no, and they don't even look
at the weather. They don't look at temperature change. And
that should be the same thing in a paranormal investigation,
temperature change room to room. But you know, I had
a case one time where a guy said he sworn,
declare this is what he saw, and he went on
and on and on his an elaborate story. And when
I went back home and checked the way there. There's
no way he could have seen anything. The ceiling was
only fifteen hundred feet, you know. And this guy's telling
me he's seeing this and this and this. I'm going
like impossible. So you know, it helps you, and it
helps you know, get the you know, sort it out
really and if you have the you can't give up.
I mean, you got to look at everything, every little thing,
no matter how small it is. If you're looking for
debris or you're looking for evidence, you know, you have
to do that properly. There's rules of evidence to follow,
you know. But you don't take something off the ground.
Let's just say it's a bigfoot when somebody thinks it's
a piece of scat. So the guy gets his rubber
gloves on, he gets his baggy out and he puts
it in there and he seals it, and then he
writes on it the day and time and where it
was and all this that and the other, and then
he hands it to his buddy, who's either the peanut
butter and jelly sandwich, who reaches into the bag and says,
what is that? Yeah, right, well that's done. And people
don't realize that you can contaminate evidence. I mean, if
you're taking evidence, you should have a mask on. You
should have rubber gloves on because your breath when people talk,
they don't realize it, but if they look look at
a slow motion camera, every time they open their mouths,
there's spittle coming out. What's on your hands, So you
want to have gloves. So it encompasses a lot more
than people think. And a case can take you know,
you can figure something out, like the guy with the
ceiling fifteen hundred foot ceiling. Yeah, I mean that was
a matter of a few minutes really, But we have
cases where in Carbondale that took us two and a
half years, the Todd's East case. We're on our sixth
going into our sixth year with that, and we have
other other cases that are taking a year or more.
Only let me jump in here because speaking about time,
I'm going to let Mark take us out to the break.
We're at the top of the hour. We'll pick up
again talking about some of some of the generalizations that
don't hold water right after this break.
Speaker 5: Mark, Yes, we're going to be right back right after
these messages with our guest, Butch Witkowski, So don't go away,
We'll be right back.
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Speaker 6: Hi, This is Hilaris Blue Raven with Hyperspace on Dark
batter Radio. Tune in on Tuesdays at seven pm Eastern
Standard Time for an intriguing show obtaining to cover technology, UFOs,
paranormal mysticism, and spirituality.
Speaker 5: And welcome back everyone to Unknown Origins Radio here on
the Dark Matter Radio Network. I'm your host, Mark Johnson
along with Bruce Pearson, and we're talking with our guest Witchkowski.
Speaker 4: Uh and Uh.
Speaker 5: We've been having a wonderful conversation tonight. Butch, I mean,
there's so much that we've been covering and wanting to
talk about.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 5: But before I asked a question, Bruce, you were starting
a lot kind of questioning before we were going off
the air, and I think you wanted to continue that.
Speaker 1: Well, Yeah, I just like to make a couple of
points for the listeners. I haven't really thought about it.
I think it's so disingenuous for any group or organization
to spend one night or two nights in a facility,
in a building, in a house, or at a location
and to pronounce there's no paranormal activity, there's nothing here
that's you know, that's a kin to drop in your
fish hook in the water for thirty seconds and saying
there's no fish in the river or the lake or
what you have you it's just and I think this
speaks to you know what Butch was saying in terms
of you know you're sharing with this is the amount
in order to do a proper investigation, you know, just
drop in for three hours and drop out and make
a proclamation that you know, anything is. And this actually
applies to some of the hotspots that I've worked with
over the years doing documentaries with pilots and stuff. You
take a considerable amount of time. If there's more than
one siting on a UFO siding, you can build a
pretty good body of evidence. It's hard to do. That's
probably a lot less practical to do in terms of
UFO investigations than it is with paranormal But I think
it's just absurd to think that, you know, taking one
night in a building and you'll be able to make
a pronouncement just because there was no activity involved there
to draw a grand conclusion. And I also wanted you
to mention to feel free to disagree with me on that.
But if you're really going to do a chain of evidence,
and this is one thing that Chase Klotsky worked on
extensively in her book, and had a properly conducted an investigation,
to protect evidence, to acquire evidence, to not disturb any
evidence that you find. And you know, if we're going
to have anyone in the skeptic or traditional forensic fields
take any of this, uh seriously, then I think the
bar has to be raised. And Mark and I've had
this discussion many times. You know, if you're if you're
just doing this for entertainment value or or you need
a night out, you know, I could think of a
lot better ways than sitting in a in a stinky, old,
moldy building all night long in the summer when it's
one hundred degrees or in the winter when it's like
this and it's three degrees. And I've done both, so
neither one of them is terribly pleasant. But if that's
what you're in it for, that's fine. That's you know,
that's not for me to judge. If you are trying
to do a serious investigation, and we've discussed this on
a number of shows, first of all, try to have
some understanding of the theories then that's what they are
of why we carry these instruments, and why the way
they function might indicate something into terms of paranormal evidence.
That's the first thing I would recommend. I mean, if
all you know about your meter is it's a plastic gadget,
the lights light up on it, and when the lights
light up on it, then there must be a ghost around.
It's hard to say to extrapolate that you're an investigator
at that point. Basically, you know you're just looking at
lights on a piece of plastic. Try to understand some
of the background and you have a better picture of
how all these pieces go together to form a puzzle.
That would be my first suggestion to anyone who's serious
about it. If you want to have credibility, do your research.
Try to the extent that we can in a non
scientific area to learn about the theories behind why a
K two meter works or why how EVPs may or
may not happen, and what the mechanism is. You're not
going to come up with the answers. If there were answers,
I guess we wouldn't be having this discussion. That's kind
of my pet peeve about it. If you're going to
try to be professional, they try to be professional, don't
you go out and buy a bunch of equipment and
run around with you know, well you know, and a
lot of the equipment sold that's out there sold now
for the paranormal hunters. A lot of that stuff is
like you say, the light slight up, Well it could
have been your buddies buckle that lit it up, who knows.
But you know, if you buy a good EMF meter
and a good radiation detector, I mean, those are things
that are not going to fail you. And another thing
I wanted to bring up and I wanted to say,
and I forgot. When you are doing research on a home,
one of the things you absolutely want to do is
get to your historical society there's one available in the area,
or a library, go through old papers, old newspaper articles,
whatever you can find on that particular house or that
particular area or the dates. Now that information in your
pocket when you get into the investigation where you're actually
on the scene and you're going to start setting up
your equipment doing this any other thing, you know. Okay,
So the Historical Society said that, you know, there was
a fire here in eighteen ninety five, and the home
was rebuilt three times, but in that eighteen ninety five fire,
the whole family perished. So now you've got a little
something that you can put on your tag on your
investigative report. Or there was a murder committed in the forties,
or something next door or down the street or out front,
or there was a terrible crash and a bunch of people.
You know, the most paranormal activity, from what I understand
and what I've seen, take place in areas where there
has been a death, of violent death. I spoke at
a meeting up in Johnstown and the guy said to me,
he says, you know when we had the flood here,
He said, you know that little bridge you crossed over.
I said, oh yeah, coming into town. He said, okay,
he said when the flood happened, he said, homes from
up upstream got washed down and they all jammed up
in these rivers at the bridge. You know, they just
started hitting each other and before you know it, there
was just this whole conglomeration of houses stacked on top
of each other, and they caught fire. You know, they
were because cooking back then was fire. And he said
people were screaming. They couldn't get to them, they couldn't
get them out. There's no way they could even get
near them. And he said, you know, many people have
reported to his group up there that you know, on
certain nights that are close to the dates of the
first flood, they hear people screaming, asking for help and this,
that and othering. He said, we have not had one
paranormal group come up to investigate that. And he said,
we've asked many. Well, there you go, miss l You
can't paint everybody with the same brush. But I think
it's important from my money to by way of example,
I have to give kudos to dead files. I mean,
I think that that is a clear indication of if
you're really going to do an independent documented historical record
background check, and that's the way you do it. And
I think that to me, that's one of the most
well represented shows on television of how paranormal research can
be done. It's not the only way by any means.
Back in nineteen seventy four, they had an incident here
in Pennsylvania called the Carbondale Sighting Incident or lantern incident,
where a group of kids saw something fall into a
mine area where there was a silk pond. Okay, and
it was sizzling, and it was bright, and it's any
other thing. And it goes on and on and on
with the police showing up and shooting at it. But
the researcher that took it on was out of Philadelphia,
and he for years years just said that this was
a joke. It was a hoax. The kids threw a
lantern in there, and this lantern was being moved around
in the soap pond by the underwater movements and the currents.
Read the report and that was what hit me in
the face. Currents in a soap pond. It's a static pod.
It's not like a flowing river. So it took me
almost two years to get his report because he goes
into great depth on the internet about what took place.
He was there for almost two and a half days.
He was called in by the police and had all
this stuff. And it took me almost two years to
find a report, and I found it. I found it.
Kufos had a file with the report, the actual report,
and so I called Kufos. I talked to doctor Rodinger
and I asked him if I could have a copy
of it, and he said, sure, send me the postage.
So I sent him three bucks. He sent me this
thing and I read it. This investigator, for whatever reason,
instead of being there for two and a half days,
what it blolled down to there he was more like
two hours and twenty minutes, two hours and twenty minutes.
But anybody that questioned the Carbondale incident was made out
to be a fool, an idiot, you know. Whatever. He
wanted to call him at that particular day, it was
always something different. And when he found out we were
investigating it, he said, he called me and he said,
I didn't know anybody was really interested in this, and
I told him, and you know, I'm not interested in
forty five fifty year old memories, I said, but I'm
going to look at it forensically and see what I
can come up with. So besides the lantern moving around
the water, which was nonsense. I bought six lanterns, the
exact lantern. I got a hold of the manufacturer of
the lantern. I got a hold of the manufacturer of
the battery. I asked him because in his report says
that when they pulled the lantern out of the water,
it was all corroded. It was seeping its electrolyte. So,
you know, when I talked to the battery people, I said,
how long would this thing be lit? Because it was
supposed to be lit many hours? I said, how long
would this thing be lit in that with the battery
that condition? The guy said, never would have been lit.
He said, the continuity was gone. He said, that's it. Well,
he said, he submerged both terminals. Yeah, he said, and
he said this thing, he said, never would have been lit.
So we tried to find the original lantern, and the
chief police had that and he sold it at the
yard sale for five bucks. You know, well, okay, we
found some pictures of the lantern of the light in
the pond, and it's a lot bigger than lantern. And
when you look at the lantern, we took it apart.
The handle it's aluminum, but the handle weighs like four ounces.
Right with the battery in the bottom part, it weighs
a couple pounds, a couple three pounds. So this thing
was supposed to be thrown by these kids into the
pond and handle down. Hardly tell you how many times
I threw it in that pond and it never landed
handled down. It's impossible. And so we made the report up.
We published the report and basically said that you know
you lied, But they now have a Carbondale how should
I call it? It's not a conference, it's like carbondale, Carbondale,
UFO days or something. They call it twice now they've
had it two years in a row. Twice I've contacted
them and asked them if I could come and speak
at it my own expense and bring along the report,
and twice they said no, thank you. Really did they
tell you why they declined a free offer or someone
who's no, sir. I have the report made by the
supposedly initial investigator with all the name states who all
contacted who, I mean, the government was involved, NASA was involved.
I mean, they have all these phone calls listed from
who they talked to at NASA who they talked to
with the Air Force and all this stuff. And one
of the things he said when he was saying it
was a hoax, well, there's no way you can get
out of this place. But we've been there a number
of times, and of course, you know walking around. I
just walked around this big clump old coal dirt and
stuff like that. And there's a road that's wide enough
to take two tractor trailers side by side through. Now,
the inroad, my truck barely made it through the inroad,
but the out road. So that was his thing. You
couldn't get a truck that size down that road. No,
not down that road you couldn't, but the other road
you could. And so here we sit with the evidence.
I mean, I have that man's report, signed, sealed, delivered,
numbered the whole nine yards, and they don't want to
see it. Who was this man affiliated with? You know,
his group was called the Philadelphia Philadelphia UFO Research Center
or something like that. I'm trying to think of what
it was called. But anyway, I mean, there were a
lot of witnesses. I mean, there were there were five kids,
there were six police officers involved. You had this, you
had this two scuba divers. You had a photographer there,
Moufon was involved, Apro was involved. His outfit was called
the twentieth Century UFO Bureau. That sounds a big commercial life.
But beyond that, though, you would think that if they
were now it's just a private or nonprofit or volunteer
group that's promoting this event. Now, well, the guys have
a radio state. The two guys that put it on
evidently have a radio station, and they put it on.
And I missed it the first year, and then somebody
brought to my attention, but it was like two month late.
So I sent him an email and said, look, you know,
I had this original report and I said, I'll be
more than what come to come up, and you know,
and well I never heard back, so I thought, well
it was too late anyway, So finding out about the
other one at the time, I sent him another email said, look,
you know I have the full report. I mean, I mean,
you get in a report where you have NORAD, you
have the Air Force, you have NASA, and the NASA
call to the police department is documented it being lasting
from one to one and a half hours for a lantern.
I don't think so and I feel like that they
would want to it as being more legitimate than a
lantern thrown in the pond. And you know, there are
little things that they're like the police officer the lantern moving,
the police officer in the boat was trying to hook it. Okay,
now it's sitting in like twelve foot of water and
he's using a four foot stick to hook it. There
you go, that don't work. Yeah, So there were so
many things that stood out that just jumped on that
report that you know, I sat here and basically left
for about an hour thinking like, oh, this is going
to be a fun report, and just taking the report apart,
just using his report nothing else, and it just it
was crazy. And after we published it on the website,
he called me again to wish me a merry Christmas.
That was it. Well, there are many layers to this
onion of why legitimate researcher, as much as we can,
as volunteers and people not for a living, try to
push the ball up the hill, why little progress has
made And this is, you know, along with the professional
skeptics who are never held to the same standard anyone
else would be, you've got people in it for their
own agendas, their own reasons, you know. It just every
one of these situations or incidents is just an impediment
for the research to go on legitimately. So I think
you just have to try to keep raising the bar,
do the best you can. And I don't think there's
anything wrong in calling out people that just you know,
are clearly knuckleheads or have their own agendas that are counterproductive.
Did you ever notice this that groups that are out there,
when they take on new members, and I don't care
what size group it is, when they take on new members,
they get no training, none, noation, no background. And and
I've I went had a number of groups on the
paranormal side come through, and I would ask them just
discreetly as a pull. You know, they twenty groups lined
up to go through the Red Mill down there at
any given time, and there wasn't there weren't enough weekends
to do it. And I'd say, well, tell me about
your you know, ask them when they call and try
to get some idea whether you know, it's just a
name with somebody calling off a phone that wanted to
have a you know, the frat house out for a
fun time. And I never ran into that, But I
always ask the question, and really, what kind of training
to get these people? Well, you know we have these
this equipment and that, Okay, we need my question. So yeah,
you're a great point. I mean, they don't know, nobody
gets an orientation or training or and and you know
there are enough good researchers out there exactly. I don't
mean if that could, I could put a could put
a training together, a training session together at a local
fire company or or or the local library for a
few hours on a once a month for free, no charge,
and actually you know, show people at least the right
direction to start in. But you know, when you got
three girls and I warned them, I basically talked them
out of it. There were three girls that were going
to go to a cemetery that has not been utilized
for forty or fifty years here in the county, and
they were going to spend the night in the cemetery
looking for ghosts. And I said, this is not a
good idea for a number of reasons. First of all,
you don't know who's lurking in that cemetery, you don't
know what's going on, you don't know your way around,
you've never been there before. You haven't even been there
in a daylight. So just packing up a lunch and
grabbing a flashlight and running around in the cemetery that's
been shut down for forty or fifty years is not
really a good move. I said, not that anybody could
grab you or anything like that, but I said, you
know what if you walked across a grave that was
sinking and yeah, or a tombstone fell on you, I
said heavy, or a monument that'll kill you. I said,
and there's nobody. It's three girls. They're all in their twenties,
and they're going to go stomping around in the cemetery.
I said, bad idea. Don't do it, and they didn't.
Eventually they didn't do it, but they were going to.
They actually called to find out if they could borrow
some equipment and I said, sure, where are you going?
And they started telling me that and I was like, oh, crap, man,
I panic. I said, this is not going to turn out. Well, well, yeah,
we do live in the real world and people get
hurt and you know, but it's the same thing with
you know, in bigfoot research, you're out in the woods.
Mostly it's done at night. I mean, it can be dangerous.
I mean, there's a lot of stuff in the woods
that will hurt you. I mean, and it doesn't necessarily
have to be stationary. It could be on four legs. Well.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I have a friend who runs the Ohio Bigfoot Hunters,
Tim Stover, and he'd recently had posted when he was
out in the woods and because he's out almost every
day bigfoot researching, and he was out in the woods
one day and as he was walking out, he heard
something behind him and turned around.
Speaker 4: There's a coyote right behind him, and that code.
Speaker 5: He paste him and followed him out and scared the
crap out of him, because you know, where there's one,
there's usually more.
Speaker 1: And now coyote alone, you need to probably back it off.
A coyote with a group, you ain't backing off. No, No,
If they're in a pack, you're not going to stop them.
When I lived out in Arizona, I used to have
one that used a sunbathe out in my backyard and
very docile and they've never bothered anything. Of My dogs
would come out and bark at him and they'd go back in.
He just lay there nothing. When two or three of
them were out there and my dogs came out. Man,
they started showing teeth and getting really defensive, to the
point where I was holding a handgun. So snakes, I mean,
come on, there's just so many things. But it's all
in the researcher's mind. What do they want to do.
If they want to have fun and games, they should
go to a haunted house. Yeah, pay the ten bucks
and go through the thing and let them scary and
go home happy. But if you want to go out
and you want to do it legitimately and the right way,
there are precautions, there are steps to be taken there.
There's an investigative protocol you need to follow. You need
to do your research. And when you tell people they
got to read a book or they got to go
to the historical side, they go, oh my, well, why
do I got to do that? Well, there's a reason
for it. I mean, you're not going to go in
there looking like a dummy. One case that I went
on with another group, which really impressed me because a
couple of times I went with other groups and they
never did it. This guy pulled out a file and
he had the complete history of that home, who lived there.
He had every owner. Now, a bunch of them were
passed away, but he did find the previous owner who
he checked with, who said, well, yeah, he did have
some strange things happened in the house, but he said,
I paid no attention to him because I wasn't there
all the time. I was on the road. I was
a salesman. And now these people are having the same
thing he had, and he hasn't lived in the house
for years. So I mean that's a start, right, And uh,
but yeah, I guess it's more exciting too.
Speaker 5: Well.
Speaker 1: I think the other side of that coin is though,
you know, you go sit in an eight degree weather
all night long. Yeah, if you're not serious about it,
that that'll flush out the heat part pretty quickly, Yeah,
real quick. Uh. And and uh, you know with our van,
you know, we have a canopy to set up, we
have computers to set up, we have a heater, uh
nine thousand BTU heater, we have you know, there's food,
there's there's stuff to drink. I mean, there's nobody says
it has to be uncomfortable, you know. And I mean
and you you're sharper, you're you know, you're not drowsing
off if you have a hot cup of coffee in
your hand that was just made, or or you know
you got warmth. Uh and and uh. You know you
can actually work at your canter and do what you
want without freezing fast to the keyboard. And it comes
down to you're either going to do it for real
or you're going to do it for fun. So right, but.
Speaker 5: Let me ask you a question, not trying to change
the subject. I wanted to get your thoughts on because
one of our listeners in the chat room also brought
it up. One note, what are your thoughts on this
new report that's coming out of Manitoba about this crash UFO.
Speaker 4: Have you heard anything on that or what are your
thoughts on it?
Speaker 1: I got a hold of a friend of mine up
in Canada who sent me newspaper clipping that this thing
was this military exercise. It's a winter exercise. It's held
every year. It's just held in different parts of Canada,
and this year was held in Manitoba there and it's
basically a winner exercise for the troops. There was nothing seen.
There were reporters, local reporters were on the site and
they didn't see anything other than the military guys. You know,
setting up the kitchen and pitching tents and parking trucks.
The first reports were that it was a pyramid shape
that was sticking out, well, there was a pyramid shape
sticking out it was a piece of ice. And then
when they said it was a piece of ice, then
it graduated to a saucer. And then when they said, no,
you're just looking at the ice from a different angle,
and then it turned into a tube. So I think
it probably was just a military exercise.
Speaker 4: Okay, you know, it's always good to get the professionals.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. I mean when I first saw it, went like, wow, roswell.
But you know, I've had so many roswells, or I
read so many roswells. Are right, I'm getting crazy.
Speaker 4: What disinformation on the internet say it isn't so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that can't be. That can't be a lie.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 5: The other thing I wanted to ask, as you know,
we're talking about you know, people tramping around the woods
and uh, you know, doing things that maybe that that
are not quite so safe, and that kind of leads
me to segue into you know, one of the cases
that you've worked on and we've discussed with you before,
is the Todd Ceas case, and you know you've done
a lot of research on that case, and yet there
are similar cases out there. And I know, you know
there's David Plaids who has his book on missing for
one one And if you if you look at the
number of people who disappear in this country every year,
and while there are a lot of them who disappear
of their own free will, you know, people trying to
fly under the radar, start a new life, whatnot. What's
going on, especially in our national parks is almost frightening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you know there are cases where you know,
people are walking with a group and they just walk
out of the way to like relieve themselves or just
take a look over a little look or a little
hill and they're gone. There's cases where guys have guy
walked out of a bar on a Saturday night where
he was with his friends and there was quite a group.
It's like eight or ten people said hey, look I'll
go get the car and walked in and they watched
him walk into the parking lot and after about fifteen
minutes he wasn't there, didn't come back, car didn't come back.
So they went in. There was the car and he
was gone, he's never been seen since. Where do you go?
And you know, go ahead, Mark, I.
Speaker 4: Mean one of the things.
Speaker 5: And again something that we're starting to look into. And
there's a big schism between, you know, the the nuts
and bolts types of investigators, whether or not your paranormal
Bigfoot UFO. There are the people who leaned towards the
tried and true explanations, the nuts and bolt Satan explanations,
or even like the undiscovered animal. And yet I know
I've personally have been leaning the opposite way of all
these different possibilities that almost defy our comprehension, that could
lean towards the possible multi dimensional aspect, parallel world aspects.
Speaker 1: And a good researcher should keep his mind open to that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And it's it seems like that adds an explanation
to a lot of these things that we see that
seem to vanish. They're there and then they vanish right
in front of us. Some of the paranormal aspects that
creatures like Bigfoot or sasquatch seems to have in some
cases that people have reported. And even these cases, let's
say somebody turns around, walks around a corner and has
gone and never be seen again. Where did they go?
You know, on the paranormal side of it. And this
is a story I've related here on the show.
Speaker 4: Often is when you know.
Speaker 5: People talk about a residual hauntings and being able to
seeing like, you know, a woman in a victorian dress
walking down the stairs, and you know, people say, well,
that's you know, they try to explain it by saying, well,
the you know, the granite in the ground or not
flowing water and something imprinted, and it replays over.
Speaker 4: And over and yet more and more.
Speaker 5: Lately, I'm leaning towards possibly the either multi dimensional and
even the time aspect, where even physicists look at string
theory and other theories thinking that time is all times
happening at once and it's only our perception of it
that makes it seem linear. So somebody who sees that
ghost walking down the stairs, are you seeing a ghost?
Speaker 4: Are you? Or are you seeing.
Speaker 5: Maybe a live, living, breathing person who in just another
time period that you can whatever conditions happen, you're just
temporarily seeing them.
Speaker 1: Right see. And that's that was one of the things
that really crossed my mind with the fellow up there
in the state Gameland, seeing that the creature did not
look at him. Was the creature in another era area,
era time zone dimension that he saw it for that
brief time, but it never saw him, or you know,
look at it looked at him or something like that.
I probably would have thought a little different, but he
said it paid him no mind. Now, a wimarana is
a large dog, and two of those dogs, I mean,
if they'd be ripping at something trying to get to me,
I'd be running. There is no way I'd just ignore
them and just walk on. And but again, the researcher
has to or the investigator has to keep their mind open.
Like I said before, I know, there's this big riff
in the community of Bigfoot. The guys are saying, well,
we never found anything because they're interdimensional, and you got
the other guys saying, well you never found anything because
they're smarter than you are. It just goes back and
forth and back and forth, and you kind of get
tired of listening to that. What they should do is
keep an open mind. Yes, it could be a lost primate,
it could be some lost human brace from wherever. It
could be interdimensional, it could be a time traveler. It
could be a parallel world that you briefly get the glimpse.
That's why they disappear on you. There's so many questions,
but you know the answers aren't there. So what they
should do instead argue with each other, start looking for answers,
Start putting reports together where this happens, where people are,
you know, reports of where they disappear in front of them,
or it catches it on a camera. And I'm just
one of those guys that I may be wrong, but
walking around knocking on trees, nailing baking to the wall
and throwing out donuts and running through torches and screaming
at the top of your lungs isn't going to get anything.
I agree. I think electronically is the way you're going
to get them. Set up your CA. I mean, they
have cameras stab trail cameras now that are wireless. They're
good for two or three miles. You can set those
things high in a tree, face them down, facement and
direction that you're looking, and go back and sit in
your truck and watch them on your computer.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: At the same time, I know researchers who have used
them and whenever they they seem to think that these
creatures always seem to know when they're up, because you
can have activity in an area in the second they
put up the cameras, then the the activity stops.
Speaker 4: It's like they sense them.
Speaker 5: And you know, if if, maybe, if these creatures are
sensitive to electromagnetic fields, and let's face it, you have
these equipment, they're electrical, they have batteries.
Speaker 4: They're gonna have any MP for them. Yeah, that they're sensitive.
Speaker 5: To that, and that's why they avoid them.
Speaker 1: Well that and you know, I want to tell you
someon If I see somebody run through the woods with
a torch screen at the top of the lungs thrown
bacon at me, I'm gonna hate them in the head
with a stick.
Speaker 4: Well, I don't know it is bacon, you know, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean you can't turn Well, let's go with a
beef sandwich. Let me jump in there. And and for
the sake of the listeners aren't familiar with it, because
I think it's it's an amazing tale, and would you
mind relating the Todd Seas situation and story. And I
just want to preface it with this, agree, disagree, skeptical believer, whatever,
you are, remember this fellow lost his life. You know,
there's family members that and so that's where the real
world touches, whatever you want to think. And that's a
shame on any level, whatever happened to them, whether you know,
whatever the facts are, and you know that's the real
fact is somebody died, and uh, that's pretty hard to
walk around and ignore. So I just want to put
that up front because I think sometimes people and that's
very important because there are real people about. I mean,
there's family members involved here. So this is a joke
and I mean this was this was a father, a brother,
an uncle, you know, a cousin who had family and
a mom and dad and children. And the story is
that the gentleman Toddsy's gets up you know, last time
he's seen lives at one am in the morning. He
leaves the house at five am to do some pre
season deer spotting, which he did a lot of. He
was a big guy, you know, in hunting and fishing.
He was really enjoying that, mostly archery. And where was
this doubt So this was in Northumberland County, Pennsylvania. So
his home is at the base of the Northumberland Ridge,
which is a six square mile ridge in that area.
So he jumps on his four wheeler and he heads
up to the mountain, which he did a lot from
what we gather, and it says to the wife, you know,
he'll be back at noon like he always is. And
he's dressed in camouflage lifeweight camouflage coverall, and off he goes.
And twelve o'clock rolls around. He doesn't show up. Two
o'clock rolls around. The wife gets panicked. Was very hot
and humid that day. She thought maybe heat stroke or
something like that, you know, or he had an accident
with the ATV. So she calls the police. Police start
a search party, and to make a long story short,
two hundred searchers go over that mountain, all six square
miles of it. They find the ATV a mile away.
There are cadaver dogs, there are search doll you know, bloodhounds,
there are people on horseback, ATVs, a state police helicopter.
They don't see him, he doesn't see them. The family's out,
they know exactly where he goes. They go to the
spots he normally went to. He's not there, so there's
no keys with the ATV. The ATV is just parked there.
There's no signs of any struggle or anything like that.
So they searched till nightfall, and they give up at nightfall,
and then they resume it the first light next morning,
same group out there looking hunting, and they don't find him.
And at a little before eight o'clock at night the
next day, a searcher sees something in the underbrush behind
the house, like one hundred and fifty yards from the home.
There's a small pond and then there's a bunch of
old down trees and stuff, and he sees something laying
under the down tree and it's mister C's and to
get there would be impossible. The condition of the body
was remarkable in that it was becaying. Now this is
only in a little less than forty hours. There was
no way there was going to be an open casket
with this body. Then the strange, the strange things start
to happen when we looked into it, where the corner
said he wasn't involved yet he was the corner he
said he wasn't. It was somebody else, but he beat
that guy two years earlier in the election. The police
department he on us around. They weren't the ones that
investigated it. It was the state police. They had nothing
to do with it. We started looking into mister c.
We couldn't find any records for him. No high school records,
no birth records. No, this record is a record. I
mean in plain english. I mean it was a truck drivers,
so they should out a Pennsylvania driver's license. He didn't.
I mean we couldn't find one. I found mine. I
found mine when I took my test when I was
sixteen years old. I'm sixty eight. Was on mine. I
went into the PENNSIL, the Social Security Death Index. I
looked up my father, who passed away in nineteen seventy.
And the information that's in there is like a name,
date of birth, where he worked, where we lived, our home,
phone number, brothers and sisters, wife's name, where he went
to school, he graduated, military service. I mean, all that
stuff is there. I went into todd Zeesis. The only
thing that say is born died date. Where goes down
to the next column, which would say family record, It
says none found. We looked in his background because the
cause of death came back as a cocaine overdose.
Speaker 2: Ha.
Speaker 1: We got the autopsy report and the toxicology report, and
I'm sure that that Carner is very sorry that he
sold it to us, because that just opened up a
whole can of worms. The amount of degradated cocaine in
his body. Had he taken that amount to get that
amount of degrade degraded cocaine in his body, he probably
would have taken the hit and took about two steps
when he fell over dead. Things we're wrong with the
autopsy was they took no nasal swabs, they didn't look
for puncture wounds. There was very little to take from
the cavity. Every autopsy I've ever attended, blood was always
taken from the chest cavity. In his case, it wasn't
enough there, so they took it from the lower leg,
which is very odd. His autopsy showed that there was
no trauma. The autopsy the body was unremarkable. He had
no diseases. Everything was intact where it should have been. Now,
had he taken that amount of cocaine, there would have
been damage not only to the brain, but to the lungs.
There would have been bleeding, hematomas, just a whole lot
of stuff missing and not going on just my experiences,
I mean, I took this information to forensic pathologist. I
took it to doctors, my brother in laws. The doctor,
I mean everybody looked at it said the same thing,
This is pretty much BS. And I said, yeah, that's
kind of what I figured. We looked up his if
he was such a huge cocaine user. We looked up
as criminal record. We found one thing. We found that
he was arrested for speeding two years prior, which he
pled guilty to and paid the fifty dollars fine. That
was all we could find there. He had no military records,
no driver's license records, no hunting license records, no high
school records. Even though we do have a picture of
him in high school in the yearbook, the records are
not there for him. Everybody else but not him. So basically,
the guy was erased. Now there's only one group I
know that can erase you. I'm pretty sure I don't
have to tell your listeners who that is. But just
many things wrong with the case. Family members lied to us,
The corner lied to us. The family said they actually
found He wasn't found in this camouflage clothing. He was
found in cut off jeans, socks and a teacher boots
were never found. The family found the coveralls and they
went through the pockets looking for the keys for the ATV.
Of course there was none. There was nothing else in
the pockets. But they did turn the uh the cover
alls over to the police department. And in the off
house report it says that the police. The corner says
the police department called him and said they found cocaine
in his pocket. Now, I don't know about you, but
if that would have been my brother out there, and
the circumstances would have been the same, and they would
have been cocaine in the pocket, I'd have buried it. Yeah, No,
kid serves no purposes at that point. Now, what was
the distance between the ATV and where they found him
behind the house? One mile of extremely rough, rocky terrain
and he had no shoes on, no shoes on uh
okay where his feet all cut up? Nope, thirty muddy.
But now here's the best part, what I call the
best part. Cast But there was a report given the
day he disappeared or yeah, the day disappeared. Yeah, the
day disappeared in the morning. We don't have the exact time.
Where some guys were fishing in the river, which is
right down from his house on the other side of
the road, and they said what they reported was a
craft above the power lines where the ATV was found,
and it looked like somebody being pulled up by a
light beam in their underwear. Now, at the distance from
the river to where the ATD was found, it would
look like somebody in their underwear, but in fact he
had on a camouflage T shirt and a pair of
cutoff jeans and socks. So we find something out about
this case. There's people working on this case in Australia.
We have people in New Zealand. We have psychics, we
have police officers, we have federal people that are with
our cold case unit that are working on this case.
And we're going into our sixth year. And my little
I always say, my little one inch binder that I
started with is now a six inch binder that's going
to be gredduating into a tenange binder. Shortly. I think
we've everything we have, We've documented, I have nothing word
of mouth. Everything that we got is either on an
email from the person that gave it to us, or
it's from like the toxicology people. It's on their letterhead,
from the autopsy, it's on their letterhead. From the corner,
it's on his letterhead. Police departments on their letter head.
So nobody's ever going to say, when this case is
brought to an end eventually, that we made up anything
about the case. Everything has been documented. It's black and
white on paper. The maps, the photographs, everything are verified
and true. So and that's the thing. It's really taken
a long time. You know, when somebody wants to talk
to you, we say, well, i'd rather if you just
send send me your information on an email. So whether
it's relevant or not, I have that information. I have
that request from whoever it was. And that's one of
the things where like I was saying earlier in the show,
everything needs to be documented, no matter what you do,
because if you have no documentation, if you just have
a story, you have no case, you have no evidence.
So if the corner says, well that U four Top group,
they lied, I never sent him the autopsy, well I
have his letter, and I have the autopsy report, and
I got the letter and the toxicology report, and his
name's on him and he signed it. So if he
pulls that, I'll just put that all over the internet,
and that'll be the end of him. First of all,
I don't think he's allowed to sell that kind of
information that should have been public knowledge. Well that's top
because I'm sure. Yeah. So anyway, the case is still open.
We work it actively, and we will continue to work
on it till we get an answer. But right now,
if somebody said to me, what do I think? What
do I think I have with all the information that
we have and the condition of the body and the
cocaine and all the circumstances around. Either I have something
that's a very very strange, out of the ordinary case,
or I have the first case that can document a zombie.
Because there is no way that man in that condition
walked one mile or crawled one mile or flew one
mile to the location he was found behind his home.
When that whole day, that whole second day, people had
to walk by that location to get on the trail
to go over to the ridge. So all these people
are walking past this body and they don't see it.
They don't smell it when they're looking for it. Now,
the dogs don't smell it. Let me tell you something.
I worked with a cadaver dog one time, found the
body four foot under dirt and rock. Yeah, that's they
don't make mistakes like that was there Also, if I
remember correctly, there's a bit of an op. He was
his casket and well, yeah, the casket was sealed. They
say some things we couldn't document because people just clammed up,
which was like the funeral director and the even though
the corner had the funeral director, had a funeral home
or has a funeral home, he was not the one
that had the burial. It was another outfit in the town.
But when you look at the condition of the body
through the autopsy report, you can't understand why it was
a closed casket. There was no way they were going
to open up a casket for this guy, so he
was in a sealed casket. But to make that proper,
I've seen reports where people have said, well the casket
was lad and it was sealed, and it was welded
shut and this, that and the other nonsense. All caskets
are sealed, right, I mean when they turn those locks
that they pull that little piece of plastic tape off,
there's that's a that's a tar strip, and that seals
the casket. But anyway, one of the other things that
was unique was when I asked one one of my
cold case members, if asked the family why the dogs
didn't smell the body, could a condition it was in?
They said, Oh, we had this terrible rain. Here's where
weather played a big part. Went right back to the weather,
pulled the weather for that location for that day, for
those hours, for that day, it rained zero point zz
zero one inch. Well there you go, that's not even
enough to wet my driveway. No, that's not even a sprinkle. Nope.
So this hard rain that was told us that's why
they couldn't see or smell the body. And nowhere else
in any report does it say that the rain that
day they still smell the body. I mean that's oh yeah, absolutely.
And the condition that body was, you should have been
able to smell this guy within a mile. Really it was.
It was bad. And to get to that here and
here's another part, you know, which we're still working on him,
were still getting information from forensic guys. Excuse me, Yeah,
how do you get that decayed that quickly? Exactly? I
mean the body takes a body takes certain steps when
it when it's gone. Uh, you know, you have liver mortis,
you have rigor mortis, then that goes away, and then
you have the stage where you know, larva stage for maggots,
and then flies and it goes on and on and
on till it rots. But this guy had skin slippage already. Yeah.
See that's even if it's warm temperature. I mean, I mean,
he wasn't bloated. Uh, they couldn't take any fluid from
the eyes because they said the eyes were pretty much gone. Wow,
you know, from from from decay. And if you look
at a person that's laid and not particularly him, but
you look at anybody a cadaver that's out in the
in the in the open, the fluid in the eyes
dry up and they just it's it's like letting a
grape out in the sun, you know, it just shrivels up. Well,
that's what the same thing happens to the eye. And
it's there, but there's there's nothing there. I mean, it's
it's not round anymore. It's kind of like a like
a dried out fluid. So yeah, the district Fisher's fluid
is gone. It's it's just one of these cases that
we're just not going to give up on. There's just
too much there. And that took place in twenty ten,
if I'm correct, right, two thousand and two, two oh
that long ago. Yeah wow. And I was asked about
it at a conference, and to be honest, I didn't
even know about it. I said, I never heard that story.
But when I came home from the conference, I pulled
it up and the original reporter was Peter Davenport from
Newport around Washington State. But his whole report is information
garnered from the newspapers. Very few anything in there that's
from anybody like We talked to some friends, and he
was very big with the Little League. We talked to
some people that were with the Little League. He was
involved with those kids for a long, long, long, long time,
and they said, let me tell you something. The one
guy said, if he would have had a hint of
any drugs being used by Todd Seas, he wouldn't have
got within five blocks of these kids. No way, impossible.
And we checked with halfway houses, we checked with the county,
we checked with everybody that would handle, you know, that
type of a situation where you have a drug addict.
They didn't have nothing on this guy, So did any
of the local papers champion this story as being god
or they just well, they didn't until we got involved
about the end of the first year. We could still
get the stuff from the newspaper in their archives, right,
which we got and printed and you know, documented and
put into our evidence file. Now that whole thing has
been white it's not even on their archives anymore. And
how did they explain that when you question, you know,
I mean, if they don't, they don't. They just don't respond,
just like they don't the fire company doesn't even have
a man they're supposed to have a report for even
going out on that call those two days. And what
did the state police say. The investigator that handled that
case retired I think in two thousand and seven six,
and I wasn't looking at it until you know, two
thousand and nine. You can't get and they won't give
you any information like where he lives or anything like
that town of course not well that you understand that,
But however, you know, if it's for the public record,
I mean, those records have to be ringed. Ah. But
there's a way to get around that which the attorney
for the county district attorney for that county can't release
any that information because it is still an open case pace, right,
and so they get around that. Yep. And you said
you and if I remember an interview you conducted and
I heard prior to this that the corner was less
than forthcoming, the funeral director was less than fourth coming.
Oh yeah, they all lied. We got them, I mean
what they told us in emails. And then we responded
by saying, just take the corner. He was not at
the scene. He doesn't know when the body was found
or where it was found. He was the only corner.
Speaker 4: To see Jill and I hate to be.
Speaker 1: Corner retired two years prior, and he beat him in
the election.
Speaker 4: I hate to be the bearer of bad news.
Speaker 5: But we are literally coming up on one minute till
the show is out. So Butch, thank you so much
for coming on the show tonight.
Speaker 4: Again.
Speaker 5: Another fabulous conversation with you tonight. As you could tell,
we could have kept going at least another hour or
two here, oh at least real quick, Where can people
find you?
Speaker 1: Www? UFO r coop dot com. And that's on Facebook
or our website on Facebook. They just click on Facebook
and they can go to U four cop website and
there's a lot of information there. They can go to
our homepage, our website and go to our closed cases
Open cases. They can see what we're doing where we're at.
We are going to have a paranormal roundtable on April eighteenth,
twenty fifteen, in Alberta, Pennsylvania. They can find that information
also on there. So if you want to sit down
with a whole bunch of investigators and ask us the
questions and get the answers you're looking for, we'll be
there from eight o'clock, nine o'clock in the morning toll
eight o'clock at night.
Speaker 5: Well again, but thank you very much for coming on
the show. We really loved having you.
Speaker 1: On anytime guys for me, thank you very much. Man,
all the best for you.
Speaker 4: And Vigure everyone.
Speaker 5: Thanks everyone for listening to another edition of Unknown Origins.
Speaker 4: Radio.
Speaker 5: Tune in every Thursday night here at eight pm Eastern
Standard Time on the Dark Matter Radio Network.
Speaker 1: We'll see you next week, everybody, Take care
Speaker 4: Of everyone, Have a good evening.