WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:02.480 I want to welcome everyone back to the Peakingana Show. 2 00:00:03.399 --> 00:00:06.040 Thomas is back and we're gonna start something new. 3 00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:09.599 Hey doing Thomas, I'm well, thank you thanks for hosting me. 4 00:00:10.240 --> 00:00:17.039 Of course we have gotten several requests for your take 5 00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:23.000 on the Balkans Wars, Bosnia, Yugoslavia, maybe even talk about 6 00:00:23.000 --> 00:00:26.640 Tito a little bit. But yeah, where do you want 7 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:28.359 to Where do you want to start this one. 8 00:00:29.800 --> 00:00:36.280 Today? I anticipate this series naturally kind of like organically 9 00:00:36.359 --> 00:00:39.520 we'll go three episodes obviously as your show, figuratively and literally, 10 00:00:40.280 --> 00:00:42.439 we'll go as many as you wish on the topic. 11 00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:46.479 What I'd like to do today, I'm want to focus 12 00:00:46.520 --> 00:00:51.439 on what the Croatians called the Homeland War. That was 13 00:00:51.479 --> 00:00:59.159 the war that approximately was caused by you know, Croatis 14 00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:05.959 declaration to pay in Croatia and Macedonia essentially seceding from 15 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:13.599 the Yugoslavian political structure in nineteen ninety one, and the 16 00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:19.040 Serbian response to that, and the relationship of that to 17 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:25.719 the situation then underway in the Soviet Union, and what Berlin, 18 00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:33.680 where Helmet Cole was still consler at the time, what 19 00:01:33.719 --> 00:01:37.480 Berlin's response was, how the world in turn reacted to 20 00:01:37.560 --> 00:01:41.959 that and what the relationship of that constellation, effectors and 21 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:46.480 those developments were on the situation in the Soviet Union, 22 00:01:46.519 --> 00:01:52.599 which was at that time very volatile. In the second episode, 23 00:01:52.680 --> 00:01:54.079 I think we should get into the history of the 24 00:01:54.079 --> 00:01:57.120 Independent State of Croatia. I've got a particular interest in 25 00:01:57.159 --> 00:02:02.319 Croatia for a few reasons, and they were especially for 26 00:02:02.359 --> 00:02:05.760 such a small country. They played an important and very 27 00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:11.080 outsized role in the Access Alliance, Okay, but also it's 28 00:02:11.199 --> 00:02:14.719 key to understanding what happened not just in the Homeland War, 29 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:19.360 but in the Bosnian War and later in the adjacent 30 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:24.319 conflicts like that, you know, in Kosovo, where Croatia wasn't 31 00:02:24.599 --> 00:02:29.240 a combatant party, but Croatia and what Croatia did or 32 00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:36.080 did not do was instrumental in how events developed. And Croatia, 33 00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:39.479 it's inarguable this isn't some Slam and Serbian people or 34 00:02:40.080 --> 00:02:45.199 anything of the sort. You know, Croatia is the most 35 00:02:45.280 --> 00:02:49.599 insinuated into the kind of Western conceptual paradigm. I mean, 36 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:55.280 part of that is for very pragmatic strategic reasons. Part 37 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:58.240 of that is for reasons of values and for lack 38 00:02:58.280 --> 00:03:06.759 of a better term, familiarity. But Croatia and particularly Tujiman, 39 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:13.000 who was at the helm of Croatia as it achieved independence. 40 00:03:13.919 --> 00:03:17.159 He was a he was in some ways a kind 41 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:21.960 of perfect foil to almost in like manny Keian terms, 42 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:25.800 so Melosovich and he was a very unique individual, and 43 00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:28.439 I think he was one of the most significant figures 44 00:03:28.439 --> 00:03:32.319 of the later twentieth century. So I want to today, 45 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:34.800 I want to I want to get into the the 46 00:03:34.840 --> 00:03:38.039 conditions that led to the the Homeland War with a 47 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:42.639 focus on, you know, the Croatian internal situation. Next time, 48 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:44.639 I think we should deal with the Second World War 49 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:50.120 and the constellation of factors therein and the independent state 50 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:54.759 of Croatia. And then in the final episode, I think 51 00:03:54.800 --> 00:03:57.520 we should deal with the Serbian situation, like their internal 52 00:03:57.560 --> 00:04:01.719 situation and more of like a deep capacity and what 53 00:04:01.800 --> 00:04:06.039 the relationship of that is to what I believe was 54 00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:09.360 you know, the kind of the kind of final like 55 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:12.319 poisoning of relations between you know, the United States and 56 00:04:12.360 --> 00:04:16.360 the Russian Federation was when America assaulted Serbia nineteen ninety 57 00:04:16.439 --> 00:04:20.839 nine without provocation. So that's the way I think it 58 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:24.879 should break down, if that's agreeable to both you and subscribers. 59 00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:28.560 But there's a lot here, so bear with me, and 60 00:04:29.319 --> 00:04:31.439 there's terms that I'll do my best to clarify as 61 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:39.600 we go, But go ahead, it all sounds good to me. Okay, No, great, 62 00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:43.120 There's terms that I will define as we go, but 63 00:04:43.399 --> 00:04:46.519 aren't going to be fully fleshed out until we get 64 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:54.079 into the deep dive context of you know, there the 65 00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:58.160 significance of these of these things. So bear that in 66 00:04:58.240 --> 00:05:00.839 mind too. I will I will come back to anything 67 00:05:00.839 --> 00:05:02.839 that seems ambiguous, and I'm aware that a lot of 68 00:05:02.839 --> 00:05:09.360 the seams ambiguous to the uninitiated. The key to understanding 69 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:15.120 how things developed in the way Yugoslavia broke apart, particularly 70 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:22.000 what guided decision making in the Croatian Control Group around 71 00:05:22.120 --> 00:05:28.120 tu Jaman, You've got to understand what was underway vis 72 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:33.560 are the Bush forty one administration and why they were 73 00:05:33.560 --> 00:05:39.759 so zealously behind Gorbachev and Chevin Narze, who was a 74 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:44.040 Grbachev's you know, top advisor. He was kind of the 75 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:51.759 man behind Perastrika in conceptual and policy terms. There was 76 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:59.480 this basic concord between you know, Bush and James Baker 77 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:03.759 and uh people within you know Bush and Baker's orbit, 78 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:13.000 like Brent Scowcroft, you know, contra the team b Coterie 79 00:06:13.319 --> 00:06:16.120 kind of best exemplified by people like were most purely 80 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:20.360 exemplified by people like Cheney, you know, who wanted who 81 00:06:20.439 --> 00:06:23.639 wanted who wanted the Soviet Union dismantled and and and 82 00:06:23.720 --> 00:06:30.680 kind of you know laid prostrate and the most you know, 83 00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:35.279 and the and the most complete and punitive way possible. 84 00:06:38.319 --> 00:06:44.439 Bush and Bakers. Uh kind of absolute imperative was that 85 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:51.240 they wanted to preserve the Soviet structure, not its internal constitution, 86 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:54.720 but it's basic structure. It's like kind of you know, 87 00:06:56.279 --> 00:07:04.800 essentially administrated government, mental organizational modality until full disarmament had 88 00:07:04.839 --> 00:07:10.079 benefit accomplished. Okay, you know, total nuclear disarmament, a drawing 89 00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:16.240 down of Soviet conventional forces, you know, to something minuscule, 90 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:19.639 you know, to to to levels of some kind of 91 00:07:19.680 --> 00:07:24.360 like internal you know, constabulary element. And only then would 92 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:27.920 there be discussion about, you know, moving forward, like how 93 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:31.160 the Soviet Union would be structured or whether it would 94 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:36.560 continue to exist at all. You know, it ending up 95 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:44.160 with you know, tanks Uh in a in red Square 96 00:07:45.560 --> 00:07:52.279 and Yeltson literally banning the Communist Party, declaring himself President 97 00:07:52.319 --> 00:07:55.560 of the New Russian Federation and then holding what I'm 98 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:57.959 on to do you know, like an add doct plebiscite 99 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:02.680 that was totally at odds with what the Bush administration 100 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:10.920 wanted to develop, Okay, and why that became possible in 101 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:14.920 an indirect but essential way was impacted by what happened 102 00:08:14.920 --> 00:08:19.519 in Yugoslavia. And for people wh think I'm overemphasizing this, 103 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:27.879 there's a fascinating memo that circulated the Department of State. 104 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:31.600 I mean, all the minutes of any like official meeting 105 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:36.840 between the Secretary of State and his Soviet counterpart or 106 00:08:36.919 --> 00:08:41.039 the or the Soviet chief executive would obviously, you know, 107 00:08:41.159 --> 00:08:49.960 be widely circulated. May eleventh of eighty nine, Gorbachev met 108 00:08:49.960 --> 00:08:58.000 with Baker and Chevin Nards. It was present to the 109 00:08:58.159 --> 00:09:03.440 topic of discussion was, uh, was force levels in Europe 110 00:09:05.360 --> 00:09:09.000 with a particular focus on nuclear weapons, and Garbage Off 111 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:15.799 initiated the conversation by putting it to Baker, I know, 112 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:22.080 because we know, you know through our intelligence apparatus that 113 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:25.799 you're planning to deploy you know, a missile platform in 114 00:09:25.840 --> 00:09:30.759 the nineteen nineties that's analogous to the then very feared 115 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:36.600 you know, Soviet SS twenty three, and uh, you know 116 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:40.399 this is a problem you know it, uh, Grocha is 117 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:43.240 basically like I, you know, I'm not concerned with how 118 00:09:43.240 --> 00:09:47.039 this looks on the perspective of a reality, but obviously 119 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:49.919 we need some kind of guarantee from you that you know, 120 00:09:49.960 --> 00:09:52.120 you're not gonna you're not gonna You're not gonna pursue 121 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:56.600 these hyper advanced like next generation like strategic nuclear weapons platforms. 122 00:09:57.679 --> 00:09:59.840 We need to guarantee from you that that's not going 123 00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:04.519 to happen, you know, before we go any further here. 124 00:10:07.399 --> 00:10:10.240 Gorrichoff further said that he and Warsaw he and his 125 00:10:10.279 --> 00:10:15.519 warsaw Peck counterparts were prepared to conduct negotiations on a 126 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:19.960 total draw down tactical nuclear forces, you know, just outright 127 00:10:22.639 --> 00:10:27.600 and uh, as well as the abolition of the nuclear 128 00:10:27.639 --> 00:10:31.600 capability of you know, quote du dual purpose platforms primarily 129 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:34.639 cruise missiles, you know, basically put placing them beyond use, 130 00:10:34.879 --> 00:10:41.399 as far as being married the nuclear warheads. Okay, if 131 00:10:41.399 --> 00:10:45.279 all this seems very esoteric, but that's my whole point, okay, 132 00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:50.159 is that you know, this was this was the issue, 133 00:10:52.360 --> 00:10:56.120 the only issue really in the minds of Bush and Baker, 134 00:10:59.039 --> 00:11:03.679 you know. In Bush forty one, he was described by 135 00:11:03.720 --> 00:11:07.000 Conda Leeza Reyes is constantly cautious. I think that's that's 136 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:11.279 the wrong way to characterize it. Calculating, yes, you know, 137 00:11:11.399 --> 00:11:20.159 incredibly thorough, Yes, but uh Bush was thinking systemically. And 138 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:26.440 that's exactly like, that's exactly the the the model that 139 00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:34.440 Nixon had for bringing about, you know, the the end 140 00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:41.200 of UH Soviet hard power, you know, by negotiated means, 141 00:11:41.799 --> 00:11:44.639 you know. And I I invoked that because I don't 142 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:48.679 I don't think anybody could say that Nixon was cautious. Okay, 143 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:58.120 the UH or chaf Further, the remainder of the discussion 144 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:03.639 is reflected in the minutes memorializing the memo. He basically 145 00:12:03.639 --> 00:12:06.480 click ticks off a list of concession as the Soviets 146 00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:11.519 have made. You know, they would draw on over five 147 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:21.600 hundred uh tactical nuclear munitions from the European theater. If 148 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:26.480 they could expect reciprocity from NATO, they they they'd be 149 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:33.399 willing to withdraw all nuclear forces, tactical nuclear forces, more 150 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:38.879 self packed territory between that day in nineteen ninety one, 151 00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:45.759 you know, and obviously tactical nuclear weapons to the Soviets 152 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:50.639 were uh, this was this was this was within this 153 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:53.279 was this was literally a local threat, you know. I 154 00:12:53.320 --> 00:12:56.159 mean that's why if there seems to be a strange 155 00:12:56.200 --> 00:13:01.120 imbalance and you know, kind of the the types of 156 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:04.039 forces that are emphasized, I mean, that's that that should be. 157 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:07.840 I mean, obviously people have basically understand a geography anybody 158 00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:09.679 who's bothering to listen to these talks that we have, 159 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:13.080 but people might not be familiar with, you know, the 160 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:16.320 strategic and tactical distinction is applied to weapons platforms like 161 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:19.000 that's that's why these battlefield nuclear weapons are of such 162 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:22.480 a concern to Moscow, Like then is now okay? Because 163 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:27.159 deployed in the European theater that that's got they've got 164 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:34.039 tremendous destructive power, and that that has implications for you know, uh, 165 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:41.919 for first strike as well as myriad other things the 166 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:49.639 second uh interestingly too. Gorbichoff says he's convinced that there's 167 00:13:49.639 --> 00:13:53.360 a special working group within the National Security Council as 168 00:13:53.360 --> 00:13:56.519 well as the intelligence community in Washington that's working to 169 00:13:56.600 --> 00:14:00.320 discredit Pair of Strike up and that Robert Gate is 170 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:04.480 probably behind this effort and this needs to be openly 171 00:14:04.519 --> 00:14:12.840 discussed less you know, public opinion, you know, converge around 172 00:14:13.159 --> 00:14:20.879 this kind of narrative, and as as I've indicated before, 173 00:14:21.039 --> 00:14:23.399 like CIA at this point was really something of a joke, 174 00:14:25.159 --> 00:14:28.240 although they did still have some power to impact perception 175 00:14:28.279 --> 00:14:33.639 and particularly through public diplomacy efforts. And Gorbacheff I believe 176 00:14:33.679 --> 00:14:37.399 is absolutely right. Like CI, at that point, Aldridge Aims 177 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:42.080 had sold out every human asset they had behind the 178 00:14:42.120 --> 00:14:47.120 Iron curtain, all of whom, of course, had been unceremoniously 179 00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:52.600 executed by KGB and gru So CIA was not just 180 00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:55.639 flying blind, but you know, them pretending that it's forever 181 00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:59.200 nineteen sixty. I mean that they that was their raison 182 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:04.519 detra you know, so grow Withrow's basically going down the 183 00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:08.759 list of things that can potentially derail this sort of 184 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:18.000 disarmam and Concord and UH Bakers you know, playing it 185 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:22.960 close to the chest, but obviously warming up to these, 186 00:15:26.840 --> 00:15:34.480 to these, to these do these efforts by Moscow, and 187 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:42.399 you know he's he guarantees UH an elimination of you know, 188 00:15:42.399 --> 00:15:46.480 any kind of tactically symmetry as regardless tactical forces, and 189 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:49.000 being in Europe, you know, immediately be followed up by 190 00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:58.679 you know, a further draw down in total nuclear forces 191 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:04.320 and UH the emphasis uh by Baker as well as 192 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:11.840 you know what's emerging from the White House and visa 193 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:16.960 via Bush's uh contentious dealings with Poland and some of 194 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:21.960 the other Warsaw Pact satellites, the opposition elements in these states, 195 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:27.120 you know, Uh, Bush is essentially insisting on patients and 196 00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:33.720 you know, people particularly like Valenca, who despised allow this 197 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:38.279 process to work, and that negotiation has to come from 198 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:43.480 the top down, meaning uh, you know, agreements between Moscow 199 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:49.759 and and and Washington, and only then, you know, can 200 00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:53.120 we talk about the future of the satellite states and 201 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:57.440 transition to you know, normalized government outside of you know, 202 00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:04.880 the the captives oviate orbit. So obviously we'll move on here. 203 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:08.160 But this is obviously like this was obviously an extraordinarily 204 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:12.680 delicate minuet. Even if there was general stability in the 205 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:21.039 Balkan theater and other potential kind of flashpoint locales, you 206 00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:28.480 know it, Uh, it would require a real commitment probably 207 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:34.920 over two administrations on you know, on on on the 208 00:17:34.920 --> 00:17:38.279 American side, who were you know, fully committed to the 209 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:45.359 program and as and and and reciprocally in Moscow. It 210 00:17:45.359 --> 00:17:48.119 would have required I mean, garbage off ended up being 211 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:53.880 very long lived. But it would have required Grbachoff retaining 212 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:56.880 his mandate probably for the subsequent decade, and if not 213 00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:02.000 he himself, you know, uh, a protege who could be 214 00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:08.079 expected to essentially carry out exactly the policy program outlined 215 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:19.759 by Shepard Nardsen and you know, kind of the Perastrika concepts. 216 00:18:21.720 --> 00:18:28.880 What was happening in Yugoslavia at this time. Yugoslavia was 217 00:18:28.960 --> 00:18:33.640 outside of the warsawf HAAG orbit you know, they they 218 00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:41.640 and they uh they were treated after the cruise, chief 219 00:18:42.000 --> 00:18:46.079 thought led to the re establishment of of of of 220 00:18:46.160 --> 00:18:53.440 cordial relations with Yugoslavia, and Tito himself and Moscow always 221 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:58.519 treated Yugoslavia as part of the socialist community of Nations 222 00:18:58.599 --> 00:19:05.079 and there was complex interdependence in the form of UH 223 00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:14.519 common form and comic con But Ugoslavia stood, you know, 224 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:18.440 as AH as a genuine neutral in the Cold War. 225 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:23.799 Did do you do you consider did you consider them 226 00:19:23.799 --> 00:19:25.039 to be socialists? 227 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:28.559 The Slabs? Yeah? 228 00:19:29.920 --> 00:19:30.839 In what way though? 229 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:33.759 I mean it was a planned economy, you know, based 230 00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:40.680 upon you know, the essentially administered inputs and production schemes 231 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:44.599 and everything else. I mean, like they they praacticed socialist 232 00:19:44.640 --> 00:19:51.039 economics to a t. They were thirsty for foreign currency 233 00:19:51.160 --> 00:19:55.279 in a way that really no other East Bloc country was, 234 00:19:55.400 --> 00:19:58.359 save East Germany, but East Germany was kind of in 235 00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:02.880 the role of Hong Kong is to you know, vis 236 00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:06.799 a vis the PRCS. That was unusual. So, I mean 237 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:10.440 Yugoslavia was able to draw direct investment in a way 238 00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:14.359 that you know, say, like Poland and Czechoslovakia wasn't. But 239 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:17.920 I mean they absolutely, you know, they absolutely were practicing 240 00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:21.640 state socialism and. 241 00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:25.359 They had they were like water water treatment plants and 242 00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:28.240 all sorts of things as such that were like guild 243 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:30.039 owned that were like guild run. 244 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:36.200 Yeah, they had, and they allowed they allowed, uh, they 245 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:39.839 allowed certain like NGOs to exist like at least nominally, 246 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:45.160 like outside the formal party structure, like which wouldn't have 247 00:20:45.279 --> 00:20:49.319 washed and you know, the Soviet Union itself, but that 248 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:51.880 was not alike the kind of stuff that was emerging 249 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:54.599 in Hungary after nineteen fifty six. I mean a lot 250 00:20:54.640 --> 00:20:57.480 of this stuff was uh, a lot of stuff was 251 00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:03.960 like cosmetic and also like it you could you could 252 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:11.039 carry on autonomously within certain parameters in the Yugoslavian system, 253 00:21:11.119 --> 00:21:14.279 but if you took on a political if you took 254 00:21:14.319 --> 00:21:18.920 on a political commitment like you'd be crushed by the 255 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:21.039 secret police, you know, just like you would anywhere else 256 00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:27.400 by in the wall. I mean, that's that's the that's 257 00:21:27.440 --> 00:21:31.079 that's the key takeaway. And uh, Tito was a real 258 00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:36.599 Communist in my opinion, you know, I mean he in 259 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:41.039 order to the whole idea of a Yugoslavia is is 260 00:21:41.200 --> 00:21:45.720 uh is was was doomed from inception for all kinds 261 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:49.319 of reasons. But the idea was the most turtle of 262 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:54.960 you of Tito in terms of the geostrategic mind. An 263 00:21:55.039 --> 00:21:57.880 impulse is that he realized that the United States and 264 00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:01.759 the Soviet Union both had to be kept out or 265 00:22:01.799 --> 00:22:05.759 you know, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, would would would would 266 00:22:05.759 --> 00:22:08.599 they would? They would stand together or fall together amidst 267 00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:15.200 the the Cold War dynamic. And we'll get into the 268 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:20.000 kind of basic suspicion of Serbs and Croats to UH, 269 00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:24.200 inter governmental organizations, including I might add the Catholic Church, 270 00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:26.839 despite the fact, I mean croats and work are like 271 00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:31.599 a Catholic vanguard, but they're not. They were always they 272 00:22:31.640 --> 00:22:37.240 were always suspicious of of you know, UH, any kind 273 00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:39.960 of vaticant effort to directly impact their politics and the 274 00:22:40.000 --> 00:22:46.079 internal situation they're in, which is interesting. But there's a 275 00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:49.000 strong heritage of that and the Balkans, and we'll get 276 00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:51.839 into the Bosniaks of people too. I'm not leaving them out. 277 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:56.839 They're they're hugely important. Uh but that but for our 278 00:22:56.880 --> 00:23:00.920 purposes right now, they kind of don't feature center stage. 279 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:07.640 But May thirteenth, nineteen ninety that was the infamous that's 280 00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:11.039 something the football game that I'm talking about soccer, not 281 00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:15.400 the pigskin game obviously. That's in the soccer match at 282 00:23:15.480 --> 00:23:21.440 the Zagreb at the Maximir Stadium between Zagreb Dynamo and 283 00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:26.000 Belgrade Red Star, which are like too like very they're 284 00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:30.119 they're kind of like Ranger and Celtic, Okay, like they're 285 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:32.319 the Rangers and Celtic, like they're you know, like the 286 00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:37.960 old firm rivalry, like very nationalistic, very much a stand 287 00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:45.440 in for a you know, ethno sectarian nationalism. The game 288 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:50.200 erupted into like this general like melee between like cross 289 00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:55.440 and Serbians as well as the police and at uh 290 00:23:56.799 --> 00:23:58.880 like the the level of violence, it was clear that 291 00:23:58.920 --> 00:24:01.599 something was afoot, that that this was just typical like 292 00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:07.119 football pitch, you know, dust up kind of stuff, and 293 00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:11.920 sure enough I put it an underway. All that preceding 294 00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:17.000 Spring was the new Croatian Parliament had been convening. They 295 00:24:17.160 --> 00:24:20.319 formally held its first session, held the first session on 296 00:24:20.440 --> 00:24:25.400 May thirtieth of nineteen ninety. But President to Jamon, and 297 00:24:25.440 --> 00:24:29.240 we'll get into who he was in a minute, he 298 00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:34.880 formally announced the manifesto for a new Croatian Constitution and 299 00:24:35.799 --> 00:24:40.079 an entire like multitude literally of political, economic and social changes, 300 00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:50.319 most of most concern to non Croats. The extent that 301 00:24:50.359 --> 00:24:53.359 this constitution outline to what extent minority rights would be guaranteed, 302 00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:55.799 I mean mainly for Serbs. The relationship between Croats and 303 00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:58.680 Bosniax is complicated. We'll get into that as we proceed 304 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:05.000 with the series. But local Serb politicians just opposed this outright, 305 00:25:05.319 --> 00:25:09.279 you know, they said it's a it's a manifesto for 306 00:25:09.319 --> 00:25:12.720 ethnic cleansing with someone ironic if you consider the source. 307 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:18.400 It's important understand Tujeman was not a bigot. I mean, 308 00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:20.480 he was a He was a He was a racial patriot, 309 00:25:20.599 --> 00:25:23.119 I believe, despite his background, and we'll get into that 310 00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:25.400 in a minute, I believe he was something of a 311 00:25:25.480 --> 00:25:31.440 national socialist, but he he was not a bigot. His 312 00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:35.319 view of a his view of democracy, his view of 313 00:25:35.359 --> 00:25:39.559 representative government was basically like the Schmidtian view. You know 314 00:25:39.640 --> 00:25:43.640 that democracy is the expressed will of the demos. It 315 00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:47.680 will always there. It represents domination by you know, one 316 00:25:47.799 --> 00:25:51.880 cohesive like ethnic, sectarian or racial group. You know, it's 317 00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:54.799 the exclusion of the expression of other cultures in a 318 00:25:54.839 --> 00:25:58.559 full and complete way. Okay, and in a place like 319 00:25:58.599 --> 00:26:00.920 the Balkans, that's an arguable if one is prone to 320 00:26:02.119 --> 00:26:12.759 kind of universalist conceits otherwise. For context, as of nineteen ninety, 321 00:26:13.440 --> 00:26:19.240 Cross represented seventy eight point one percent and Serbs self identified. 322 00:26:19.279 --> 00:26:21.640 I think Serbs represented twelve just word, twelve percent of 323 00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:26.519 the total population. But the Serbs held a disapportionate number 324 00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:32.279 of official posts closed somewhere between fifteen and twenty percent. And 325 00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:35.559 these these these posts were loaded in the police and military. 326 00:26:38.119 --> 00:26:39.880 And this is something that had been underway for a 327 00:26:39.880 --> 00:26:46.079 couple of decades, you know, Serbians becoming insinuated into the 328 00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:52.160 security element as well as uh adjacent institutions of the 329 00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:59.559 party apparatus. You know, it was the after after the 330 00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:09.480 death of the Communist Party in in Croatia and uh 331 00:27:10.759 --> 00:27:15.160 to uh a striking degree in Bosnia. Hear Segovina as well. 332 00:27:16.720 --> 00:27:21.559 You know, the uh, the like the Yugoslavian security apparatus 333 00:27:21.599 --> 00:27:25.240 was becoming a like like a Serbian institution, you know. 334 00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:37.200 And this, uh, this more than anything, kind of prompted 335 00:27:37.240 --> 00:27:40.799 public reception in Croatia among cross at their back was 336 00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:47.519 against the wall because it's not, uh, it's not the 337 00:27:47.559 --> 00:27:49.680 Croati at this time had its own army or something. 338 00:27:50.200 --> 00:27:52.880 The only army was the Yugoslav National Army like the 339 00:27:52.960 --> 00:28:02.000 j and A, And immediately after the Slovenians also held 340 00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:07.319 a parliamentary election they held there's in April in nineteen ninety, 341 00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:10.440 you know, and then the cross as we just mentioned 342 00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:13.759 in nineteen ninety. In May nineteen ninety, the j and A, 343 00:28:13.880 --> 00:28:17.799 the Yugoslav National Army, they announced an end to the 344 00:28:17.799 --> 00:28:21.880 Tito era adoption of general People's Defense. That what general 345 00:28:21.880 --> 00:28:25.279 People's Defense in practice meant was that each discreet republic 346 00:28:25.759 --> 00:28:33.319 within Yugoslavia maintained a territorial defense force that basically, you know, 347 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:37.039 at absence like a general mobilization, knowing to total war, 348 00:28:37.279 --> 00:28:42.680 you know, the local territorial defense would be responsible for 349 00:28:43.240 --> 00:28:48.559 you know, responding to emergency situations as well as acting 350 00:28:48.559 --> 00:28:52.400 in in you know, the kind of constabulary role for 351 00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:58.279 policing the internal situation, an event of a crisis. This 352 00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:02.359 was this was this was just abolished and henceforth it 353 00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:07.720 would be replaced by essentially directed system of defense you 354 00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:11.440 know UH from the J and A's UH General Staff, 355 00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:15.160 which again was what was was re pradical purposes, you know, 356 00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:24.920 like a Serbian element. The Slovenians acted rapidly to try 357 00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:31.960 and retain control over their over their territorial element. The 358 00:29:32.039 --> 00:29:36.640 Croatians played it very cool, which is fascinating, and people 359 00:29:36.680 --> 00:29:45.599 have a couple of ideas about that. The UH, the 360 00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:55.480 weapon stockpiles of the Territorial Defense Force element in Croad 361 00:29:55.559 --> 00:30:00.119 majority regions were seized by the us Lav National Army 362 00:30:01.480 --> 00:30:13.079 and it was UH, Serbia's representative in the Federal Presidency 363 00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:18.480 of Yugoslavia, which was then still let theoretically intact. He 364 00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:21.799 claimed that this action came basically at the demand of 365 00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:29.319 Serbia because again, you know, they were claiming that, you know, 366 00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:33.160 we represent all you know, Yugoslavians, but the Serbian minority 367 00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:36.960 is under direct you know, like mortal physical threat in 368 00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:44.079 newly independent Croatia, which according to Belgrade was a was 369 00:30:44.079 --> 00:30:51.480 was it was a fascist state. So Tujman realized he 370 00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:57.160 had to proceed carefully. A lot of people believe Tujman 371 00:30:57.279 --> 00:30:59.000 was in We'll get into his background a minute, but 372 00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:01.400 he was. He was an inn eellectual. He was a 373 00:31:01.400 --> 00:31:03.720 military officer, but he was he was kind of the 374 00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:08.799 constant East Block intellectual. People think he was basically playing 375 00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:13.000 like a master chess game. And he realized, uh that 376 00:31:14.200 --> 00:31:20.880 owing to you know, the good offices with with with 377 00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:25.559 Germany and particularly Cole, as well as America's need h 378 00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:29.200 you know, kind of control the situation without simply seating 379 00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:34.880 responsibility for any intervention to the Russians, which was unthinkable. 380 00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:41.240 That basically, like if he allowed the Serbs to continue 381 00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:46.200 to you know, basically kind of outrage world opinion by 382 00:31:46.200 --> 00:31:49.799 carrying out what was by all appearances kind of like 383 00:31:49.920 --> 00:31:56.039 nakedly like uh ethno sectarian program of oppression against all 384 00:31:57.079 --> 00:32:02.960 attempts at secession and self determination. That either there'd be 385 00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:07.880 direct intervention by some combination of the U N and 386 00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:12.799 the EU backed up by natal force of arms, or 387 00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:16.240 that the United States and Germany would allow you know, 388 00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:23.400 weapons to stream in and essentially give the Cross them 389 00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:26.839 they needed UH to win when push came to shove, 390 00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:33.960 and ultimately four years later that's exactly what happened, and UH, 391 00:32:34.599 --> 00:32:41.960 the Cross you know, launched this mass assault operations storm 392 00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:48.160 against the Serbian U slav National Army and like quite 393 00:32:48.200 --> 00:32:51.119 literally like liberating Croatia. And we'll get into that in 394 00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:55.960 later episodes. But I basically accept that view of two Jeman, 395 00:32:57.480 --> 00:33:02.799 which is why, as I suggested, has we commenced this discussion. 396 00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:06.119 He's you know, worthy of the praise that he receives. 397 00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:12.279 And and then more who was too Juman. He was 398 00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:16.359 born on May fourteenth, nineteen twenty two. He died in 399 00:33:16.400 --> 00:33:22.440 December of nineteen ninety nine. It's an arguable that he 400 00:33:22.519 --> 00:33:25.720 played he played the pivotal role in the in the 401 00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:29.359 creation of like the modern Croatian state, the contemporary state. 402 00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:41.400 It uh his vision of Croatia. It was. He didn't 403 00:33:41.480 --> 00:33:46.319 run from the it's it's it's passed as a fascist state, 404 00:33:46.799 --> 00:33:51.279 a national socialist state. He didn't even particularly deemphasize it. 405 00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:56.759 His background, he'd he'd fought with the Partisans against the Ustasia, 406 00:33:56.960 --> 00:34:01.640 which is interesting in art, motivated probably by the fact 407 00:34:01.640 --> 00:34:05.079 that his brother had been murdered by the Eustasha, but 408 00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:09.039 he could not be called an anti fascist, and in 409 00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:14.960 the thirty years preceding the Homeland War he was periodically 410 00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:21.920 imprisoned for nationalist activities. He wrote a History from the 411 00:34:21.920 --> 00:34:30.760 Croatian Perspective of World War Two, whereby he essentially said 412 00:34:30.760 --> 00:34:33.320 that the Croatians of the people had to work within 413 00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:39.800 the communist paradigm in order to achieve self determination, and 414 00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:44.400 that was his motivation for joining the Partisans, and in 415 00:34:44.440 --> 00:34:50.440 other men's cases, especially after the wall came down, that 416 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:54.400 would seem laughable, and to Jamon's case, it's entirely credible, 417 00:34:57.559 --> 00:34:59.599 owing to you know, the way he lived his life 418 00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:04.320 and and frankly the kind of regime that he created 419 00:35:04.760 --> 00:35:11.480 when he came to the Helm he Uh. It's important 420 00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:19.159 note too that Tito was a crawat, and even then, uh, 421 00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:23.639 there was a strong uh, there was a Serbian plurality, 422 00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:32.280 if not across party offices, you know, within the vanguardist 423 00:35:32.880 --> 00:35:39.400 elements as well as you know, in the security apparatus 424 00:35:39.400 --> 00:35:43.920 that followed. So it's a crawat who a crowd who 425 00:35:43.960 --> 00:35:46.079 was a partisan during the war years and then later 426 00:35:46.119 --> 00:35:49.239 became an arch nationalist. The way to look at that 427 00:35:49.480 --> 00:35:51.119 is you can't look at that the way you would 428 00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:55.719 in some in some in some national narratives. It's not 429 00:35:56.920 --> 00:36:00.239 it's not a matter of what's changing, changing their ats 430 00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:03.679 according to politic, according to historical currents. There is an 431 00:36:03.719 --> 00:36:07.400 internal logic there. You know, Convolutism might seem outside of 432 00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:14.400 the Balkan situation. But revisionists who write about the Balkans, 433 00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:19.039 and there are some, they made the point that it's 434 00:36:19.239 --> 00:36:23.360 incredibly misguided and just kind of like a I mean, 435 00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:26.199 just kind of like a midw conceit to paint tu 436 00:36:26.320 --> 00:36:29.679 Jaman and Melosovich's, you know, as these kind of twin 437 00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:34.440 like Balkan dictators. They were totally different kinds of people. 438 00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:37.440 They were different generations. You know, they were born, you know, 439 00:36:37.800 --> 00:36:43.239 over twenty years apart. Melosovich was the consummate kind of 440 00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:47.039 company man communist. Interestingly, he was the man the State 441 00:36:47.079 --> 00:36:51.960 department favored for a kind of perastrika in Yugoslavia to 442 00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:59.800 be overseen. And you know, uh, when I was a 443 00:37:00.000 --> 00:37:05.000 wating to what the odds of this discussion with in 444 00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:08.840 my opinion, the Bulgan situation kind of dooming the Bush 445 00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:15.800 Baker Gorba show off. Shepherd nards a concord was when, 446 00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:26.039 as I think we discussed before the UH Tujmon met 447 00:37:26.280 --> 00:37:40.519 with Helmet Cole on October seventh, nineteen ninety one, and 448 00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:47.199 raw m the Cole met on October seventh with UH Separovich, 449 00:37:48.280 --> 00:37:51.800 with Tujiman's foreign minister, and he reiterated and knowing certain 450 00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:57.320 terms that you know, as long as Croatia like abides, 451 00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:03.559 you know, the ceasefire that was then periodically in place 452 00:38:04.880 --> 00:38:08.440 and you know, continues to hold, you know, regular elections 453 00:38:08.760 --> 00:38:15.519 that you know, beyond mere cosmetic affairs that UH you know, 454 00:38:15.559 --> 00:38:18.599 the end that the newly independent Croatia has Germany's full support. 455 00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:22.840 Within the notes of the meeting is fastening. Scepparovic says, 456 00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:28.039 you know, we were painted as we're painted as national 457 00:38:28.119 --> 00:38:35.400 socialist by the UH American world press. We we we 458 00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:38.559 fear this is gonna harm our cause, like Cole says, like, 459 00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:41.480 don't worry about that. You know, when when push comes 460 00:38:41.519 --> 00:38:46.760 to shove, basically l L, I'm gonna I'm gonna reform 461 00:38:46.840 --> 00:38:52.039 Washington that this issue is non negotiable, you know, so 462 00:38:52.159 --> 00:38:56.719 Cole and of course UH Belgrade went nuts and claimed 463 00:38:56.760 --> 00:39:01.239 that UH they they they claim that tou Jaman and 464 00:39:01.320 --> 00:39:06.679 Cole were conspiring to develop a fourth Reich, that you know, 465 00:39:07.400 --> 00:39:11.360 NATO was supporting UH, a Nazi client state of Germany 466 00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:19.880 in Croatia and UH the You know that the response 467 00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:23.679 from Zagreb was that, you know, we've abided every UN 468 00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:32.079 resolution that has been assigned to us in order to 469 00:39:32.159 --> 00:39:38.199 mitigate hostilities. We are under attack. We want nothing more 470 00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:41.559 than self determination. You know, we're at risk of ceasing 471 00:39:41.559 --> 00:39:44.360 to exist at a people, as a people based on 472 00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:47.880 our unwillingness to abide communist tyranny. You know, isn't that 473 00:39:47.960 --> 00:39:50.800 what the American way is all about? And what the 474 00:39:50.840 --> 00:39:57.679 NATO enterprise was was UH was tailed and maintained to guarantee. 475 00:39:58.159 --> 00:40:03.719 And Yelton's people in Moscow obviously were listening, as were 476 00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:08.800 well less his people in Poland, I mean, as was UH, 477 00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:16.159 as was you know, all these young Turks throughout the UH, 478 00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:21.760 throughout the East Bloc, and they were saying, you know, 479 00:40:21.800 --> 00:40:24.880 who the hell is Bush to tell the Russians that 480 00:40:24.920 --> 00:40:27.800 they've just got to tolerate, you know, they've got to 481 00:40:27.920 --> 00:40:30.079 They've got to tolerate a communist tyranny for the sake 482 00:40:30.119 --> 00:40:34.360 of stability. You know, this is uh, this is egregious. 483 00:40:34.639 --> 00:40:37.280 You're telling people they've got to willfully avail themselves as 484 00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:41.679 captives to communism or something even worse and refrain from 485 00:40:41.679 --> 00:40:50.639 pursuing self determination. You know, simply, uh, it's simply simply 486 00:40:50.679 --> 00:40:53.280 to abide you know, some kind of you know, some 487 00:40:53.400 --> 00:40:56.960 kind of vision that allows Gorbachev and Hivin Nards to 488 00:40:57.000 --> 00:41:03.239 make make heroes of themselves and possibly enriched themselves exponentially, 489 00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:13.639 you know, in pursuit of this kind of a policy 490 00:41:13.719 --> 00:41:16.760 of h of non action. 491 00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:23.760 And that's really can jump n jump in for a second. Yeah, Okay, 492 00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:27.840 how much at this point, how much influence is coming 493 00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:32.920 from outside like NGO types in the in nineteen eighty eight, 494 00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:35.920 the I can't remember the name of the guy who 495 00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:39.599 started the National Endowment for Democracy, but he he bragged 496 00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:42.239 them New York Times that you know, the National Endowment 497 00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:44.320 for Democracy is now going to start doing the work 498 00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:48.840 of the CIA, and we have our eyes on Yugoslavia. 499 00:41:49.159 --> 00:41:52.280 There was some of that, but it's also what uh 500 00:41:52.800 --> 00:41:57.039 what Separovic said that Cole was correct, and there were 501 00:41:57.320 --> 00:42:00.679 there were national Socialist guys who joined up to go 502 00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:04.880 fight and uh fight against the Serbs with the cross. 503 00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:09.480 I met some of them, and uh Ingo Hasselbach is 504 00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:11.320 not an admirable guy, but he did write a very 505 00:42:11.320 --> 00:42:17.719 interesting book. He talked about that you know that that 506 00:42:18.920 --> 00:42:21.119 that that that that was a shot in the yard 507 00:42:21.159 --> 00:42:25.599 of the national socialist cause, especially in East Germany. You know, 508 00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:29.840 like the independent State of Croatia was back. It's one 509 00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:32.559 thing to uh it's one it's fun thing to have. 510 00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:37.840 It's one thing to to to to repurpose Ukraine as 511 00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:41.119 like a human torpedo and install like a clown, like 512 00:42:41.119 --> 00:42:43.280 a literal clown like Zelenski at the helm and then 513 00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:46.239 like watch it destroy itself. You know, while you allow 514 00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:48.440 these why why well, while you allow them to like 515 00:42:48.519 --> 00:42:51.079 dress up and play Nazi, that's one thing. Is another 516 00:42:51.079 --> 00:42:56.599 thing to have, like an actual national socialist state that's 517 00:42:56.639 --> 00:43:02.239 flying the standard of uh that that that Pavlich's NDH 518 00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:06.119 did and having a you know, helmet cole like standing 519 00:43:06.119 --> 00:43:08.119 literally arm in arm with like the president of the 520 00:43:08.119 --> 00:43:11.199 newly independent Croatia as a totally are in ball game 521 00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:20.239 and selling that. Selling that in Washington, you know, as 522 00:43:20.280 --> 00:43:24.000 part of a neo contage program was not an easy sell. 523 00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:28.280 What did going to carry the day m p r I, 524 00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:32.320 which was a precursor to Blackwater and a lot more 525 00:43:32.320 --> 00:43:34.440 effective in my opinion, there were much more other tradition 526 00:43:34.480 --> 00:43:37.360 of outfits like executive outcomes that people are familiar with 527 00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:42.079 that m p r I was Military Products and Resources Incorporated. 528 00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:50.400 They were they were a PMC outfit that was very 529 00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:56.320 much responsible for getting the Cross and fighting shape in 530 00:43:56.440 --> 00:43:58.679 terms of material and training the Cross. There were very 531 00:43:58.679 --> 00:44:02.760 martial people and UH that's a facilitated operations storm. But 532 00:44:02.800 --> 00:44:05.679 it's a totally different world. And like the UH, the 533 00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:08.480 Croats were like an underdog people. It's like, yeah, they 534 00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:12.360 had Germany behind them, Like yeah, I'm like American media 535 00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:15.880 basically cast them as like the good guys. But they 536 00:44:15.920 --> 00:44:21.320 also if you go to UH, you know like ed Vashim, 537 00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:23.559 like they got au, they got a whole, they got 538 00:44:23.559 --> 00:44:26.639 a whole exhibit like permon an exhibit on like you know, 539 00:44:26.679 --> 00:44:31.880 the crimes of the Ustasha. You know, they're not that's 540 00:44:31.880 --> 00:44:33.880 wonder if that's so many neo cons that clicked up 541 00:44:33.880 --> 00:44:37.039 with like Serge Trifkovic, whoite met and he doesn't like 542 00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:39.679 me very much. But that's why that's why during like 543 00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:44.199 the height of UH the height of like war on 544 00:44:44.360 --> 00:44:47.800 terror bullshit. Yeah, these like crazy like Laura Lumer type 545 00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:50.480 Zionists saying like see, like we we stay with the 546 00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:53.000 Syrups because they're victims the Holocaust too, and like they're 547 00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:56.280 they're they're also fighting Islam like that that's their big thing, 548 00:44:56.760 --> 00:45:00.800 you know, So like Krawats are not people who they 549 00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:04.039 kind of the kind of in Gio macro verse likes 550 00:45:04.039 --> 00:45:07.920 to help. Okay, that's the short answer. We can get 551 00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:13.679 more into that in a subsequent episode. It'll become particularly 552 00:45:13.719 --> 00:45:16.079 relevant as we get into Operations Storm and kind of 553 00:45:16.119 --> 00:45:20.119 like the how that developed, and there's the planning and 554 00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:22.039 execution as well as you know, kind of the order 555 00:45:22.079 --> 00:45:26.800 of battle for the Rubber met the road. But you know, 556 00:45:27.360 --> 00:45:34.400 the uh, what was obviously the forefront of embody's mind 557 00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:42.599 was what would Croatia's treatment of minorities be? You know, 558 00:45:42.840 --> 00:45:51.239 uh two junt Finesse did very well. Separovich openly stated that, 559 00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:55.679 uh there that the Zagreb government and the Futmont government 560 00:45:56.440 --> 00:46:00.000 they have actually no problem with you know, an opening 561 00:46:00.039 --> 00:46:05.280 hearing at the Hague conference that was then looming for 562 00:46:05.320 --> 00:46:10.639 the winter time, or participating representatives of you know, all 563 00:46:10.760 --> 00:46:13.039 all of of you know, the three ethnic groups, you know, 564 00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:16.840 Cross servant Bosniak, he could you know, get some declaration 565 00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:21.639 or rights from this zagarea government that would be guaranteed 566 00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:23.800 by you know, like you had observers or whatever like 567 00:46:23.880 --> 00:46:34.440 upon sensation of hostilities. You know, Uh, the true problem, 568 00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:36.559 the truth throw on the side of the server became 569 00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:40.760 the Albanians and Kosovo. But that's we're not there yet. 570 00:46:41.480 --> 00:46:45.800 But the point is, like at least more than superficially, 571 00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:48.559 the Cross said, like, look, we we would be willing 572 00:46:48.559 --> 00:46:53.280 to accept some international controls in terms of settlement of 573 00:46:53.320 --> 00:46:58.920 the Serbian minority, and we will definitely allow observers on 574 00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:02.000 the ground. We've got an to hide here. But again, 575 00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:05.440 you know, Tujman was unwilling to compromise in his statement 576 00:47:05.480 --> 00:47:11.119 that self determination involves the dominance of you know, homogeneous 577 00:47:11.159 --> 00:47:14.960 culture and its ability to get guarantee that culture's posterity 578 00:47:14.960 --> 00:47:17.440 and the practice of that culture by the people constitute it. 579 00:47:17.760 --> 00:47:20.599 And this is absolute that the self determination is, you know, 580 00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:23.400 you will not force us into some multi ethnic state 581 00:47:23.559 --> 00:47:26.239 under Serbian dominion. You know, we will not become a 582 00:47:26.280 --> 00:47:29.840 minority in our own country again, and this is not negotiable. 583 00:47:31.559 --> 00:47:35.920 And that was very baldy. But again it uh, you know, 584 00:47:36.440 --> 00:47:41.800 the this was exactly the right tactic to take. And 585 00:47:41.840 --> 00:47:48.679 again some would say tu Jaman gambled by holding back 586 00:47:48.960 --> 00:47:52.199 the way that he did and kind of letting the 587 00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:57.639 war be fought in Bosnia, while like the Cross, you know, 588 00:47:58.199 --> 00:48:01.519 we're able to kind of build political cache by appearing 589 00:48:01.559 --> 00:48:04.920 to you know, be the party that was most compliant, 590 00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:08.000 you know, with you know, law and order as as 591 00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:13.519 as a devised by NATO and the Hague. Like cynical 592 00:48:13.519 --> 00:48:16.079 as that might have been, it was a master stroke 593 00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:23.800 and tu Jaman could not have known that Operations Storm 594 00:48:23.880 --> 00:48:28.880 would develop way that it did. The subtext of the 595 00:48:29.000 --> 00:48:32.360 cole Separovic meeting is is Coal is telling him You're 596 00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:36.039 going to have the weapons you need to to win 597 00:48:36.079 --> 00:48:39.199 the homeland war when the time comes. Okay. That's if 598 00:48:39.239 --> 00:48:41.679 you know what to look for in analyzing these kinds 599 00:48:41.679 --> 00:48:48.480 of this kind of language and placing it in context 600 00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:52.000 of uh, you know, the parties and what brings them 601 00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:57.599 to the table. I think that can't be disputed. So 602 00:48:57.719 --> 00:49:06.039 that's it's basically what we think of as you know, 603 00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:13.079 the Balkan Wars like in our lifetime. That's what kicked 604 00:49:13.119 --> 00:49:22.480 off the conflict cycle and again autumn of ninety one, 605 00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:27.599 like the Cross, the first UH like real kind of 606 00:49:27.599 --> 00:49:39.840 conventional engagement was the siege of the Jillivar Barracks, whereby 607 00:49:39.880 --> 00:49:47.159 the jy and A was UH aiming to continue their 608 00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:54.719 campaign to disarmament against the Cross in Croatia proper what 609 00:49:54.880 --> 00:50:02.559 was to become Croatia proper, and Toujman eventually called off 610 00:50:02.599 --> 00:50:07.719 after after approximately fourteen days, he called off the siege 611 00:50:07.760 --> 00:50:09.519 and allowed the j and A to seize what they 612 00:50:09.519 --> 00:50:15.280 had come to take. Stood down or remained of a 613 00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:24.320 territorial forces adopted a purely kind of defensive posture, and UH. Meanwhile, 614 00:50:24.480 --> 00:50:30.719 UH took the waging the active conflict by proxy in Bosnia, 615 00:50:33.320 --> 00:50:37.559 which again was a UH was a political and strategic 616 00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:43.280 master stroke. Did that prolong the suffering of people? I mean, 617 00:50:43.280 --> 00:50:46.760 what happened in Bosnia is horrible, like beyond belief, But 618 00:50:46.840 --> 00:50:49.119 I mean Toujman did what he had to do to 619 00:50:49.119 --> 00:51:02.320 win the war, okay, and UH if with within the 620 00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:05.920 bound of rationality of that, like Belgrade had to be defeated. 621 00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:10.800 You know, I know that sounds like callous to but 622 00:51:11.000 --> 00:51:13.559 I mean the fact is it's you know, yeah, I 623 00:51:13.559 --> 00:51:20.400 mean subjecting, subjecting people in the Bosnian battle space, including 624 00:51:20.440 --> 00:51:25.119 Croats obviously, you know, to those guys of horrors for 625 00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:27.679 the greater good. I mean that that's those those are 626 00:51:27.679 --> 00:51:30.599 the kinds of decisions that that that real statesmen, you know, 627 00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:32.719 like warranty statesmen have to make, and it was the 628 00:51:32.800 --> 00:51:35.320 right call. I'm not trying to upset people. I'm not 629 00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:40.679 like at all. I'm speaking in in terms of you know, 630 00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:45.960 strategic matters, not moral ones, and uh, I'm not Uh, 631 00:51:46.239 --> 00:51:48.559 I've got a lot of respect for the Serbian people. 632 00:51:48.639 --> 00:51:51.360 I'm certainly not down on them or bashing them or anything, 633 00:51:51.679 --> 00:51:53.760 and we will give them like their fear hearing too, 634 00:51:53.960 --> 00:52:00.519 like in the concluding episode. But I think, uh, I'm 635 00:52:00.519 --> 00:52:03.719 frankly getting kind of tired. I don't know, you any 636 00:52:03.760 --> 00:52:08.079 hour that was kind of dense, So I don't want 637 00:52:08.079 --> 00:52:09.760 to get into the second. What I'm gonna get into 638 00:52:09.800 --> 00:52:11.960 next is kind of is like equally dense, and we'll 639 00:52:12.000 --> 00:52:13.599 be here in anunder two hours that I get into 640 00:52:13.639 --> 00:52:15.320 it now. So I want to. I want to say 641 00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:19.519 it because it basically ties together too Jmud regime as 642 00:52:19.639 --> 00:52:22.360 a legacy government of poplished and I want to drop. 643 00:52:22.400 --> 00:52:24.360 I want to drop the context of what the public 644 00:52:24.440 --> 00:52:28.719 regime was as it existed from five in the second episode. 645 00:52:28.719 --> 00:52:29.960 I don't want to get into it now and then 646 00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:31.599 just like have to stop in ten minutes. 647 00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:35.880 Is that there, Yep, no problem, Junior plugs. 648 00:52:35.639 --> 00:52:40.400 Yes, sir. I'm very excited to say I've got a 649 00:52:40.400 --> 00:52:42.559 bunch of video that's actually ready to go, and everybody's 650 00:52:42.599 --> 00:52:45.280 been like very patient with that, and this has been 651 00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:50.239 a learning process for me, so like I I forgive 652 00:52:50.239 --> 00:52:51.719 me for that. Have been like a hype for like 653 00:52:51.760 --> 00:52:53.599 months and months, but I think I think people really 654 00:52:53.679 --> 00:52:56.880 enjoy what I got and I'm shooting even more tomorrow. 655 00:52:57.039 --> 00:53:01.880 So sometime this week I plan to have something to upload, 656 00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:06.000 so be looking for that. You can always find me 657 00:53:06.039 --> 00:53:09.719 on substack at real Thomas seven seven seven at substick 658 00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:12.280 dot com. I've been dropping as much fresh content there 659 00:53:12.280 --> 00:53:15.159 as I can, including our dear friend Jay Burden has 660 00:53:15.159 --> 00:53:18.679 been transcribing our just our dialogues here, which is great. 661 00:53:18.719 --> 00:53:21.760 He's a real prince, and I've been uploading those. I've 662 00:53:21.800 --> 00:53:28.039 been uploading new pod content audio. So that's there. You 663 00:53:28.039 --> 00:53:31.239 can find on my website. It's Thomas seven seven seven 664 00:53:31.239 --> 00:53:34.880 dot com number seven h M S seven seven seven 665 00:53:34.920 --> 00:53:39.239 dot com. You can find me on x at capitol 666 00:53:39.360 --> 00:53:43.840 R E A L underscore number seven h O A 667 00:53:43.840 --> 00:53:48.320 S seven seven seven. I'm also on Instagram. I can 668 00:53:48.360 --> 00:53:51.639 never remember. Just search Thomas seven seven seven on Instagram 669 00:53:51.639 --> 00:53:55.639 and you'll find me just like at number seven h 670 00:53:55.719 --> 00:53:57.920 O A S seven seven seven. And yeah, let's let's 671 00:53:57.920 --> 00:54:00.960 reconvene later this week, man, and it will continue on 672 00:54:01.039 --> 00:54:05.960 the Balkan Wars. We're gonna do it, all right, thank you, Yeah, 673 00:54:06.039 --> 00:54:06.559 thank you. Man. 674 00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:11.880 I want to welcome everyone back to the Pecanana Show. Thomas, 675 00:54:11.920 --> 00:54:12.519 how are you doing. 676 00:54:12.840 --> 00:54:14.400 I'm doing very well. Thanks. 677 00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:19.199 All right, that's part two of the Balkans what we're 678 00:54:19.199 --> 00:54:21.599 gonna talk about today today. 679 00:54:21.719 --> 00:54:28.760 I wanted to provide a bit of context to understand 680 00:54:28.760 --> 00:54:33.920 the conflict cycle of the Balkan Wars from nineteen ninety 681 00:54:33.920 --> 00:54:38.400 one to ninety five and then later from nineteen ninety 682 00:54:38.480 --> 00:54:44.840 nine into two thousand. Approximately, one has to understand the 683 00:54:44.960 --> 00:54:51.559 situation of the first attempt at creating a Yugoslavian state, 684 00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:54.960 which was a fool's errand from inception. But this didn't 685 00:54:55.000 --> 00:55:01.480 originate with the Partisans or with you know, the the 686 00:55:01.840 --> 00:55:05.280 It didn't originate in the minds of the same kinds 687 00:55:05.280 --> 00:55:08.679 of people who you know, conspired with the cynics like 688 00:55:08.840 --> 00:55:15.239 Venice and Czechoslovakia. You know, it was it, there was, 689 00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:18.480 there was deep precedent for it, not into it had 690 00:55:18.559 --> 00:55:22.199 no there was no organic support for it among the 691 00:55:22.239 --> 00:55:29.000 constituent populations, but among various coteries and categories of elites 692 00:55:29.400 --> 00:55:32.360 like this is an ongoing effort. So that's number one. 693 00:55:33.159 --> 00:55:37.119 Number two, there's many, many misconceptions about the Independent State 694 00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:42.280 of Croatia as it existed from Many forty one to 695 00:55:42.320 --> 00:55:47.840 forty five. For a small country, it had a tremendously 696 00:55:47.840 --> 00:55:51.920 outsized impact. It was incredibly committed to the acts As cause, 697 00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:56.920 and a lot of people claim otherwise by conflating support 698 00:55:56.960 --> 00:55:59.840 for the Usta Show regime with support for the x 699 00:56:00.079 --> 00:56:04.480 IS cause and Adol Hitler, and that's misguided. But also 700 00:56:04.559 --> 00:56:09.079 people mischaracterize the relationship of Proosa as a people to 701 00:56:09.199 --> 00:56:14.920 the Usta Shaw and the Eustasha movement was a Bosnian 702 00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:20.079 crad movement at base, and discussing the view of the 703 00:56:20.159 --> 00:56:24.320 Ustasha in Croatia proper, it's almost like it's an impertinentalogy. 704 00:56:24.360 --> 00:56:26.960 But it's almost like it's almost like polling people like 705 00:56:27.079 --> 00:56:32.360 in England or like UH London about how they feel 706 00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:35.199 about like loyalism in Northern Ireland. You know, like you're 707 00:56:35.239 --> 00:56:38.840 you're remote from the conflict zone. And yes, I mean 708 00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:42.880 cross were really proud people, they're really like aware of 709 00:56:44.239 --> 00:56:49.800 this situation contra the civilization of other I'm speaking within 710 00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:52.400 the terms of the conflict in amics present and not 711 00:56:52.480 --> 00:56:57.079 making some value judgment or suggesting anything in absolute terms 712 00:56:57.119 --> 00:57:03.480 about the populations under discussion. But in the Bosnia is 713 00:57:03.519 --> 00:57:10.880 literally like a powder keg of of ethno sectarian conflict dynamics. 714 00:57:11.280 --> 00:57:16.480 So one's got understand the emergence of the Ustasha as 715 00:57:16.480 --> 00:57:19.440 well as the emergence of of the the Chetnik movement 716 00:57:19.679 --> 00:57:21.719 as as a as a as A as a Bosnian 717 00:57:21.760 --> 00:57:26.519 phenomenon very much. You know, on the Chetnik side, just 718 00:57:26.599 --> 00:57:32.119 complexities and ambitions that you know kind of transcended and 719 00:57:32.159 --> 00:57:34.599 superseded that. But if you're talking about kind of the 720 00:57:34.679 --> 00:57:43.599 core based of organic radical support for these UH, for 721 00:57:43.719 --> 00:57:54.400 these for these ethnic UH political programs and in ideological crusades, 722 00:57:55.360 --> 00:58:00.000 you know, the the dynamics of Bosnia Herzegovina are essential 723 00:58:00.159 --> 00:58:04.360 understanding it. So today we're gonna get into that stuff, 724 00:58:05.599 --> 00:58:07.440 and then then that and then then the next episode. 725 00:58:10.039 --> 00:58:12.119 I think, uh, you know, we'll get into the we'll 726 00:58:12.119 --> 00:58:16.599 get into the Homeland war itself and kind of how 727 00:58:16.639 --> 00:58:19.639 it resolved and with the implications where they're in. There's 728 00:58:19.679 --> 00:58:22.440 a lot here. If we start going too long, we 729 00:58:22.519 --> 00:58:26.719 might drag this out into another episode. But we've not 730 00:58:26.800 --> 00:58:29.199 been informed yet that we're boring people when we go 731 00:58:29.360 --> 00:58:31.679 longer than expected, at least, I mean, I haven't gotten 732 00:58:31.679 --> 00:58:34.000 any feedback in the regard, and I assume if that 733 00:58:34.079 --> 00:58:37.199 was underway, you you wouldn't continue to you know, be 734 00:58:37.400 --> 00:58:38.480 so kind as to host me. 735 00:58:39.159 --> 00:58:41.760 So if I think if we go beyond three episodes, 736 00:58:41.800 --> 00:58:42.760 no one's gonna complain. 737 00:58:43.960 --> 00:58:46.599 Yeah, that was the Yeah. Yeah, And I mean I 738 00:58:46.639 --> 00:58:52.760 think we're I think we understand each other enough, you know. Uh, 739 00:58:53.239 --> 00:58:54.719 we we've got we've got kind of like a rhythm 740 00:58:54.719 --> 00:58:57.079 going and the way we produce content that. Yeah, I 741 00:58:57.239 --> 00:59:02.440 think we've got a common vision in mind. The uh, 742 00:59:05.199 --> 00:59:09.840 the Balkans is a peculiar significance. There's a little kind 743 00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:17.320 of like cliche discussion about it, or cliche discussion. The 744 00:59:17.360 --> 00:59:25.480 Balkans doesn't outside significance, particularly particularly into strategic terms, just 745 00:59:25.599 --> 00:59:31.599 owing to like owing to situatedness, like literal geography, and 746 00:59:31.679 --> 00:59:39.079 in the case of Germany, a hostile Balkans or even 747 00:59:39.079 --> 00:59:41.960 in neutral Balkans, whereby the Germans for denied the ability 748 00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:51.760 to deploy, specifically to reinforce Hungary and to you know, uh, 749 00:59:52.320 --> 00:59:57.239 create any kind of defense and depth or alternatively, you know, 750 00:59:57.320 --> 01:00:03.679 traverse the frontiers of Hungary, Romania and creation Balghanichlovina proper 751 01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:06.920 if they were if they were denied the ability to 752 01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:09.920 do that, that would essentially like cut Europe in half 753 01:00:09.920 --> 01:00:13.760 in operational terms. And obviously, as it became clear that 754 01:00:15.719 --> 01:00:19.880 the Soviet Union was Germany's primary adversary and really the 755 01:00:19.920 --> 01:00:25.960 only the only path to victory in World War Two 756 01:00:26.239 --> 01:00:28.559 was was the defeat of the Soviet Union. Okay, I 757 01:00:28.639 --> 01:00:33.119 mean this was this was emergent long before Barbarossa kicked off. Okay. 758 01:00:33.719 --> 01:00:37.679 So that's the key to understanding the situation the Balkans, 759 01:00:38.280 --> 01:00:40.800 and that endures to this day. Okay, I mean, that's 760 01:00:40.800 --> 01:00:48.599 that doesn't change. Secondly, the kind of unique the unique 761 01:00:48.639 --> 01:00:54.599 affinity that great powers have for the constituent populations there. 762 01:00:56.639 --> 01:01:00.960 It creates, it creates dynamics that have a unique with escalation, 763 01:01:01.360 --> 01:01:02.760 you know, like as we talked about it a little 764 01:01:02.760 --> 01:01:09.440 bit more in today, the Craoats and the Germans, especially 765 01:01:09.599 --> 01:01:14.800 uh Austrians and Bavarians, but also I mean even the 766 01:01:16.880 --> 01:01:19.079 you know, even Slavians and and and the and the 767 01:01:19.119 --> 01:01:25.639 Prussian Officer UH Corps such that it still existed, you know, 768 01:01:25.719 --> 01:01:29.760 and in the nineteen thirties and forties, there's a basic 769 01:01:29.800 --> 01:01:33.920 affinity between Germany and Croatia, you know, and that was 770 01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:39.079 essential understanding what Helmet col did in nineteen ninety one. 771 01:01:39.119 --> 01:01:41.440 So I mean that endoors to the state too, and 772 01:01:41.519 --> 01:01:43.679 the Russians as a people, well, they've got a they've 773 01:01:43.679 --> 01:01:47.679 got a unique affinity for the Serbs. Okay, And I'm 774 01:01:47.679 --> 01:01:51.880 oversimplifying a bit for this sake of conceptual clarity. But also, 775 01:01:53.880 --> 01:01:55.840 you know, we've talked a little bit about the kind 776 01:01:55.840 --> 01:02:00.199 of Islamic awakening or revival of the late twentieth century 777 01:02:00.880 --> 01:02:07.559 and it's and its significance as an essential one of 778 01:02:07.639 --> 01:02:10.960 many essential causes and and kind of bringing down the 779 01:02:11.119 --> 01:02:14.599 U the Warsaw pack structure and kind of like the 780 01:02:14.639 --> 01:02:20.400 Stalnist model of regime model Bosnia was very much gram zero. 781 01:02:20.559 --> 01:02:25.039 Bosniaks became very radicalized and what became al Qaeda was 782 01:02:25.119 --> 01:02:29.239 very active there and kind of bringing Bosniac people like 783 01:02:29.280 --> 01:02:35.559 back into the Islamic fold. Okay, and Bosniaks have something 784 01:02:35.599 --> 01:02:41.199 of a complicated relationship to Islam, but traditionally, you know, 785 01:02:41.239 --> 01:02:45.519 they were very much adjacent and integrated into into into 786 01:02:45.519 --> 01:02:51.880 the Ottoman structure. Okay, So these are not this is 787 01:02:51.920 --> 01:02:57.679 not just something like middling ethnic conflict whereby the subject 788 01:02:57.760 --> 01:03:05.000 populations you know, aren't viewed as are aren't aren't viewed 789 01:03:05.000 --> 01:03:12.320 as holding any inherent significance historical or otherwise, save for 790 01:03:12.920 --> 01:03:17.039 you know, the pragmatic business of attempting to you know, 791 01:03:17.119 --> 01:03:21.719 resolve and enduring conflicts in such a way that you know, 792 01:03:23.639 --> 01:03:27.440 great powers can at least work with whoever emerges triumphant. 793 01:03:27.760 --> 01:03:30.920 You know, it's very very deep affinities here of you 794 01:03:31.159 --> 01:03:35.440 basically pre rational nature, a lot of which date to 795 01:03:35.519 --> 01:03:38.960 the Thirty Years War, but even that precede, you know, 796 01:03:39.880 --> 01:03:45.440 that's important to them, that's important to keep in mind. 797 01:03:48.440 --> 01:03:50.519 And then jump around a bit here. But the Bulkan 798 01:03:50.599 --> 01:03:53.840 theater of World War two was incredibly brutal. It was 799 01:03:53.840 --> 01:03:56.320 almost like that it was almost like a verymont experience 800 01:03:56.360 --> 01:04:02.159 like Vietnam type experience, you know, the uh the Chetniks 801 01:04:02.199 --> 01:04:07.760 led by uh Asa Mahalovich kind of cloak really called 802 01:04:07.760 --> 01:04:12.119 the Hell of Its Chetnicks, because there's various Chetnik factions 803 01:04:13.280 --> 01:04:17.480 party of the conflict and in various kind of like 804 01:04:17.559 --> 01:04:22.840 offshoots with the main sort of chet Nick movement. First 805 01:04:22.840 --> 01:04:25.920 and foremost, they were fighting for the restoration the monarchy. 806 01:04:26.599 --> 01:04:28.880 The monarchy as we got into, like the like the 807 01:04:28.960 --> 01:04:32.000 Yugoslav monarchy as we got into in our World War 808 01:04:32.039 --> 01:04:34.800 One series, had become for all practical purposes like a 809 01:04:35.119 --> 01:04:39.599 like you know, like a monarchy that was what was 810 01:04:39.599 --> 01:04:45.880 was was very much captivated by Serbian interests. Okay, the 811 01:04:45.960 --> 01:04:53.239 chet Nicks. The Chetnicks were found in sulant situations somewhat 812 01:04:53.960 --> 01:04:59.599 somewhat like Shankai checks forces did in their own theater. 813 01:05:00.719 --> 01:05:05.639 The primary ops of the Ustasha and the Vermoncht at 814 01:05:05.679 --> 01:05:11.440 critical moments or the Chetnicks like not the Partisans. The 815 01:05:11.480 --> 01:05:16.960 Partisans would often avoid engaging the Verhrmacht when possible, you know, 816 01:05:17.079 --> 01:05:19.639 unless it was critical for them to contest an objective. 817 01:05:20.400 --> 01:05:23.679 And this led to very high Chetnik body counts, and 818 01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:28.760 you know, it allowed Tito to spare is arguably is 819 01:05:29.559 --> 01:05:35.480 kind of like a best cadres. Okay. There was also 820 01:05:35.559 --> 01:05:38.039 complexities where you know, there are some Chetniks who were 821 01:05:38.039 --> 01:05:41.400 like somewhat adjacent almost allied with the Italians, and the 822 01:05:41.440 --> 01:05:43.559 Italians are kind of trying to play everybody off against 823 01:05:43.599 --> 01:05:48.199 each other. There was some Chetniks who ultimately defected in 824 01:05:48.280 --> 01:05:54.079 real terms, you know, to the ax Aside, and one 825 01:05:54.119 --> 01:06:00.440 of whom uh actually received the Knight's Cross. So, I mean, 826 01:06:00.480 --> 01:06:09.199 it's incredibly it was a mess, you know, But the 827 01:06:09.239 --> 01:06:15.199 degree to which two Hitler was forced to kind of 828 01:06:15.239 --> 01:06:22.119 abide all all these competing interests and all these conspiratorial 829 01:06:22.199 --> 01:06:25.639 designs of other essential allies, you know, whether you're talking 830 01:06:25.639 --> 01:06:28.400 about the Romania's, the Hungarians or like all Ducha himself. 831 01:06:29.920 --> 01:06:35.440 That's key understanding why Ante Pavolich became the the you know, 832 01:06:35.480 --> 01:06:39.320 the the chief executive of of the Independent State of Croatia. 833 01:06:39.920 --> 01:06:44.840 Because Pavlich was a very very unusual guy, as we'll 834 01:06:44.840 --> 01:06:48.679 see in a minute, and as I've emphasized before, because 835 01:06:48.679 --> 01:06:52.480 it's not a middling point, and it also it's important 836 01:06:52.519 --> 01:06:56.199 to emphasize it's rebuttal to a lot of the fallacious 837 01:06:56.199 --> 01:06:59.519 assertions in court history. The third Reich wasn't trying to 838 01:06:59.559 --> 01:07:02.400 expe weren't fascism. In fact, they were doing the opposite. 839 01:07:02.599 --> 01:07:06.639 They didn't want these stabilizing regimes to pop up that 840 01:07:06.840 --> 01:07:11.119 had a shaky mandate, you know that we're uh, you know, 841 01:07:11.679 --> 01:07:15.679 kind of blowing up the internal constitution of traditional German allies. 842 01:07:16.199 --> 01:07:20.239 Like they didn't want that at all. Okay, A rare 843 01:07:20.360 --> 01:07:27.719 incidence of a like a radical cadre based revolutionary fascist 844 01:07:27.760 --> 01:07:34.320 do Waight Elements being wholly supported by Berlin and becoming 845 01:07:34.320 --> 01:07:37.559 the official government of an essential ally like independent state 846 01:07:37.559 --> 01:07:40.000 of Croatia was really the only instance of that. I 847 01:07:40.039 --> 01:07:42.480 know some people watching this are going to say, like, well, 848 01:07:42.519 --> 01:07:45.800 what about the arrow cross in Hungary? Okay? That was 849 01:07:46.159 --> 01:07:48.199 the war was I mean, this was the final months 850 01:07:48.199 --> 01:07:53.440 of the war like that. That was you know though 851 01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:56.400 those were desperate conditions were by you know, moment to 852 01:07:56.440 --> 01:08:01.280 moment what was ah, what what was what was going 853 01:08:01.320 --> 01:08:05.519 to allow the you know, what was going to allow 854 01:08:05.559 --> 01:08:07.920 Hungary to survive? Like as a state? Like was what 855 01:08:08.119 --> 01:08:13.079 was you know, circumstances were changing, if not weak to 856 01:08:13.199 --> 01:08:14.599 you know, if not day to day and then week 857 01:08:14.639 --> 01:08:16.880 to week. So I don't think that's a fair comparison. 858 01:08:17.840 --> 01:08:20.439 But a point I'm making people again and again too, 859 01:08:20.560 --> 01:08:22.720 is you know, there was there was a peculiar almost 860 01:08:22.760 --> 01:08:25.920 kind of like internal conflict in the in the right 861 01:08:26.000 --> 01:08:29.199 security apparatus we're about like in Romania. Okay, you like 862 01:08:29.199 --> 01:08:33.880 the Iron Guard. Hitler did not back the Iron Guard. 863 01:08:33.920 --> 01:08:37.279 He backed anton Escu, who I think in a lot 864 01:08:37.319 --> 01:08:40.920 of ways was was was Hitler's best ally like he 865 01:08:40.960 --> 01:08:43.800 was closer obviously to Duce like uh like the fear 866 01:08:44.000 --> 01:08:48.319 what was I mean? But anton Escu made a huge 867 01:08:48.319 --> 01:08:52.840 commitment to Barbarossa and he was he was uh, he 868 01:08:52.920 --> 01:08:56.119 was a highly competent general officer. But that's that's the 869 01:08:56.239 --> 01:08:58.359 that's the peribial horse Hitler backed, I mean all the 870 01:08:58.399 --> 01:09:00.680 s S and the s D like they backed the 871 01:09:00.720 --> 01:09:05.119 Iron Guard. I mean owing to their owing to their 872 01:09:05.159 --> 01:09:08.880 own kind of radical inclinations and and and desire to 873 01:09:08.920 --> 01:09:13.960 sort of develop a kind of foreign policy and to 874 01:09:14.159 --> 01:09:18.239 itself like go ahead. 875 01:09:18.760 --> 01:09:21.479 Didn't Evola say that he thought the Iron Guard was 876 01:09:22.159 --> 01:09:26.359 one of the best chances to defeat communism? 877 01:09:26.840 --> 01:09:28.760 Yes, he did. The place eval was coming from. He 878 01:09:28.800 --> 01:09:31.319 looked at the Iron Guard basically as like an orthodox 879 01:09:31.359 --> 01:09:34.800 mosen and like that's not misplaced. But he if all 880 01:09:34.840 --> 01:09:36.800 this whole thing was that he looked at fascism and 881 01:09:36.880 --> 01:09:40.279 national socialism. It's just like another kind of iteration of 882 01:09:40.279 --> 01:09:43.960 of degenerated like modern materialism. If you like, the iron 883 01:09:43.960 --> 01:09:46.680 Guard is like this return to you know, the kind 884 01:09:46.680 --> 01:09:52.800 of if you would buy Doomazel's trifunctional hypothesis, if you 885 01:09:52.880 --> 01:09:55.640 the iron guards are returned like a combination of of 886 01:09:55.840 --> 01:09:58.199 of of the of functions, you know, the warrior function 887 01:09:58.279 --> 01:10:03.760 and the priestly function, which is uniquely aryan sociological paradigm, 888 01:10:04.199 --> 01:10:08.239 and that in Evel's view, you know, represented you know, 889 01:10:08.279 --> 01:10:11.199 owing to the kind of the peculiar conditions of Romania 890 01:10:11.600 --> 01:10:13.239 and kind of you know, a culture that it's still 891 01:10:13.279 --> 01:10:16.439 managed to sustain this kind of like linear consciousness of 892 01:10:16.479 --> 01:10:18.920 like ancient ways. You know it was it was it 893 01:10:18.960 --> 01:10:21.520 was like capital t tradition sort of like reaching into 894 01:10:21.520 --> 01:10:26.800 the modern era and like captivating, you know, captivating a 895 01:10:26.880 --> 01:10:29.680 national population in a way that you know, it was 896 01:10:29.800 --> 01:10:37.760 both anachronistic as as well as you know, revolutionary and 897 01:10:37.399 --> 01:10:41.159 in all the most unique ways in an Evol's opinion, 898 01:10:41.239 --> 01:10:44.279 like that's that's the only way that that's the only 899 01:10:44.319 --> 01:10:47.079 way that communists could be eradicated, like the entire like 900 01:10:47.119 --> 01:10:50.680 modality of communists thought like if you'd like preview, pretty 901 01:10:50.760 --> 01:10:53.640 much every like oppositional tendency is essentially derived from the 902 01:10:53.680 --> 01:11:04.680 same the same lapse like materialists like conceptual biases. So yeah, 903 01:11:04.920 --> 01:11:07.159 but it's like why the s S and the s 904 01:11:07.319 --> 01:11:10.920 D likes them. That's a little more complicated, not philosophically, 905 01:11:11.000 --> 01:11:13.479 I mean, when it's like it's it's murky, but it's 906 01:11:14.960 --> 01:11:17.640 But the point is, uh, the Independent State of Croatia 907 01:11:17.680 --> 01:11:20.319 stands out for a lot of reasons. But that's not 908 01:11:20.359 --> 01:11:22.039 to say that it had some kind of like weak 909 01:11:22.119 --> 01:11:27.520 mandate like people corny storians always claim it like, oh, 910 01:11:28.039 --> 01:11:30.520 you know, the Ustasha had no popular support, you know, 911 01:11:31.279 --> 01:11:33.680 I mean, I can't really be true when I mean, 912 01:11:33.720 --> 01:11:35.800 first of all, is the fact of you know, Bosnia 913 01:11:35.920 --> 01:11:41.079 being the true kind of the true kind of source 914 01:11:41.199 --> 01:11:47.239 of of of those kinds of conceptual imperatives ideologically not 915 01:11:47.319 --> 01:11:55.359 Croatia proper, but also the uh there was Croatia committed 916 01:11:55.479 --> 01:12:00.800 UH at least one division sized element, the three sixty 917 01:12:00.920 --> 01:12:06.239 ninth Reinforced Infantry of the Wehrmacht was one hundred percent Croatian. 918 01:12:06.520 --> 01:12:09.199 The three ninety second, which is also called the Blue Division, 919 01:12:09.239 --> 01:12:11.560 not to be confused with the Spanish Blue Division. The 920 01:12:11.600 --> 01:12:15.000 three ninety second was regiment sized, but you know you're 921 01:12:15.039 --> 01:12:19.199 talking about you're talking about thousands of men, all volunteers, 922 01:12:20.439 --> 01:12:23.199 who were also honored, as you know, being assimilated into 923 01:12:23.239 --> 01:12:29.279 the the The chap punk like lead element of Army 924 01:12:29.279 --> 01:12:33.640 Group South was Sault Stalingrid and all there was there's 925 01:12:33.680 --> 01:12:38.520 a Croatian Air Force legion that fought exclusively on the 926 01:12:38.560 --> 01:12:41.840 Eastern Front, and they scored like over two hundred kills 927 01:12:43.079 --> 01:12:46.000 or like victories. You know, I mean this was I mean, 928 01:12:46.000 --> 01:12:49.119 I mean the Croats. The Croats were one hundred percent 929 01:12:50.319 --> 01:12:55.159 on board with the Axis Crusade. You know the fact 930 01:12:55.199 --> 01:12:57.600 that people didn't like love the Ustasha or something that's 931 01:12:57.640 --> 01:13:01.359 not that's not you can't really derive anything from that. 932 01:13:01.439 --> 01:13:04.520 And as we'll get into their reasons for their objections, 933 01:13:05.159 --> 01:13:10.600 oh to publish his Machiavelian tendencies more than it did that. 934 01:13:10.720 --> 01:13:14.039 Oh they're too radical and violent, you know, they're this 935 01:13:14.199 --> 01:13:15.920 myth too that like oh the East sure were just 936 01:13:15.960 --> 01:13:19.039 too savage, so that even even the horrible evil SS 937 01:13:19.079 --> 01:13:22.119 said tried to stand them down. That's not That wasn't 938 01:13:22.119 --> 01:13:27.640 their objection. Their objection was that, you know, when publish, 939 01:13:27.720 --> 01:13:30.000 was essentially there to kind of like balance these furies 940 01:13:30.800 --> 01:13:37.520 you know of Italy, Romania, Hungary as well as as 941 01:13:37.600 --> 01:13:39.800 as well as as well as rooting out you know, 942 01:13:39.840 --> 01:13:45.600 the partisan threat in Bosnia Hertzklovina. You know. Meanwhile, while 943 01:13:45.600 --> 01:13:50.199 they were doing that, they're also ethnically cleansing the Ndah 944 01:13:50.399 --> 01:13:54.560 of Serbs. Like their their notion was deport a third, 945 01:13:54.800 --> 01:13:57.560 like slaughter a third and like forcibly convert a third 946 01:13:57.600 --> 01:14:03.680 to Catholicism. And they published absolutely no problem with maslums. 947 01:14:03.720 --> 01:14:06.000 In fact, like he identified with them strongly. And we'll 948 01:14:06.000 --> 01:14:07.359 get into that in the minute when we get into 949 01:14:07.359 --> 01:14:10.359 some of his bi biographic data. But that that was 950 01:14:10.399 --> 01:14:15.279 the The objection was like look like this this you 951 01:14:15.319 --> 01:14:18.000 know it was it was it was a question of 952 01:14:18.039 --> 01:14:21.119 like misplaced priorities. It wasn't like that, you know. The 953 01:14:21.239 --> 01:14:24.199 view was that like the regime and Zagreb was being 954 01:14:24.199 --> 01:14:32.960 too mean or something. But moving on it, uh the 955 01:14:33.159 --> 01:14:36.119 uh help me scroll down here and see what I've 956 01:14:36.119 --> 01:14:47.840 got on my outline. There's a uh such that it existed, 957 01:14:48.520 --> 01:14:52.159 I mean such that there was it didn't matter. The 958 01:14:52.279 --> 01:14:58.399 Kingdom of Yugoslavia, Hitler realized, you know, which still existed 959 01:14:58.479 --> 01:15:05.840 until nineteen four one. Hiller realized that he had what 960 01:15:05.920 --> 01:15:09.520 all costs the court them into the Tripartite pect, which 961 01:15:09.560 --> 01:15:18.720 eventually he did and famously famously UH the Yugoslav regient 962 01:15:18.840 --> 01:15:22.840 Prince Paul on June third, ninety thirty nine, the the 963 01:15:22.880 --> 01:15:26.359 Prince Yugoslavia and his him, his wife was wasn't was 964 01:15:26.359 --> 01:15:28.880 was an english woman, you know, like born and bred. 965 01:15:29.439 --> 01:15:35.520 They were invited to Berlin. There was this whole gala celebration. 966 01:15:35.680 --> 01:15:37.359 There's a banquet through in their honor. There was like 967 01:15:37.399 --> 01:15:44.439 a full military parade, you know. And Hitler's notion was twofold, 968 01:15:44.479 --> 01:15:51.199 like first of all the Yugoslav UH monarchy and it's 969 01:15:51.279 --> 01:15:55.920 it's its cabinet was was served dominated. Okay, And we 970 01:15:55.960 --> 01:15:57.640 talked about some of these dynamics again like in our 971 01:15:57.640 --> 01:16:02.720 World War One series. They were absolutely they were they 972 01:16:02.720 --> 01:16:05.800 were they were pursuing a course of declared neutrality, which 973 01:16:05.800 --> 01:16:09.199 in reality was a was a politic area denial to 974 01:16:09.319 --> 01:16:14.279 forbid that Bermach from any kind of operational ingress or 975 01:16:14.279 --> 01:16:17.399 egress or Yugoslav territory. All right, this had to be 976 01:16:17.520 --> 01:16:22.039 resolved in some way, not just because it's becoming clear 977 01:16:22.079 --> 01:16:27.520 and clearer that again, you know, Germany's that the primary 978 01:16:27.520 --> 01:16:30.279 threat to Germany was was was the Soviet Union, but 979 01:16:30.319 --> 01:16:33.039 also you know, the only the only way Germany could 980 01:16:34.439 --> 01:16:36.920 the only Germany could could could literally fuel its war 981 01:16:37.000 --> 01:16:42.119 machine as well as deploy in the as it needed to, 982 01:16:42.920 --> 01:16:48.319 was if there was you know, access to Romania, which 983 01:16:50.399 --> 01:16:53.039 and uh you know who these oil fields were were 984 01:16:53.039 --> 01:16:57.199 literally fueling the German economy as well as it's as 985 01:16:57.199 --> 01:17:00.199 well as it's a nascent war machine. But also again too, 986 01:17:00.279 --> 01:17:04.880 there was Jewish strategic imperatives that you know, it's it's 987 01:17:04.880 --> 01:17:09.600 simply as as ah as the Balkans couldn't seply just 988 01:17:09.600 --> 01:17:13.039 be like written off an area of operations for all 989 01:17:13.119 --> 01:17:18.199 kinds of reasons, and especially as it became clear, you know, 990 01:17:18.239 --> 01:17:21.880 even before the advent of hostilities in ninety thirty nine, 991 01:17:22.199 --> 01:17:24.720 it was clear that you know, if the British intended 992 01:17:24.760 --> 01:17:27.439 to like see through on what they were you know, 993 01:17:27.680 --> 01:17:33.439 allegending was the these guarantees on the continent that you know, 994 01:17:33.640 --> 01:17:38.279 the really the only really really in operational terms, like 995 01:17:38.359 --> 01:17:40.960 the only the only kind of assault upon Europe that 996 01:17:41.000 --> 01:17:44.319 could be staged conceptually or conceivably at that time would 997 01:17:44.399 --> 01:17:48.079 would have been you know, through the through the Balkan theater, 998 01:17:48.720 --> 01:17:54.319 you know, be it be it Greece, be it you know, Yugoslavia, 999 01:17:54.600 --> 01:18:04.880 or or otherwise. But that's when Chagrin. Paul traveled to 1000 01:18:04.920 --> 01:18:07.760 London soon afterwards, and it was clear that he was 1001 01:18:07.760 --> 01:18:15.560 being actively courted by you know, the uh, the the 1002 01:18:15.840 --> 01:18:23.720 intelligence establishment there, you know, and this becomes, uh, this 1003 01:18:23.840 --> 01:18:29.000 is Keith understanding what developed in around Pavolic and we'll 1004 01:18:29.039 --> 01:18:42.319 see in a minute. It's uh, it's you know, and 1005 01:18:42.319 --> 01:18:46.479 that's something I this is something I emphasized again and 1006 01:18:46.479 --> 01:18:52.800 again to like people tend to view Germany's attack upon Greece, 1007 01:18:53.319 --> 01:19:00.319 which really o do the the operational shortcomings the Talian 1008 01:19:00.439 --> 01:19:10.960 army as Hitler trying to force the British to stand 1009 01:19:11.000 --> 01:19:17.079 down and abandon any abandon any claim to the Mediterranean, 1010 01:19:17.960 --> 01:19:19.399 as well as it's some kind of just like show 1011 01:19:19.399 --> 01:19:21.399 a force, you know, based upon I mean, I guess 1012 01:19:21.439 --> 01:19:29.279 the the first true like paratroop assault was on Crete 1013 01:19:29.359 --> 01:19:31.800 and it was a disaster. But this idea that that 1014 01:19:31.880 --> 01:19:36.720 was some kind of flex intended to signal the UK. 1015 01:19:36.880 --> 01:19:40.760 I mean, it's ridiculous. The reason why this was critical 1016 01:19:40.840 --> 01:19:42.720 is for the reasons why I said, like the entire 1017 01:19:42.800 --> 01:19:48.039 Bulkan campaign of the Vermont it owed entirely like Germany's 1018 01:19:48.079 --> 01:19:54.000 security concerns, like conceptually orbited entirely around the Soviet Union, 1019 01:19:54.039 --> 01:19:58.960 and like existential terms. Okay, that's not in political terms obviously, Yeah, 1020 01:19:59.079 --> 01:20:01.199 like the UK's on willingness to come to terms and 1021 01:20:01.239 --> 01:20:06.039 it's you know, unrelenting pasture bellicosity like, yes, that that 1022 01:20:06.159 --> 01:20:09.920 was hugely impactful and kind of the course of of 1023 01:20:09.920 --> 01:20:14.640 of policy in Germany, you know, from the Foreign Ministry 1024 01:20:14.720 --> 01:20:18.119 to the o k W and everything else. But in 1025 01:20:18.119 --> 01:20:22.359 in in raw strategic terms what I what I just 1026 01:20:22.399 --> 01:20:31.840 said is not impeachable. The uh if the r F 1027 01:20:32.359 --> 01:20:34.720 had gotten a toe hold too, I mean again, like 1028 01:20:34.760 --> 01:20:38.039 they could have basically they could have they could have 1029 01:20:38.079 --> 01:20:44.319 laid Romania to waste. It was you know, those foreig 1030 01:20:44.319 --> 01:20:49.039 engine bombers that ultimately return to loose on germany civilian population. 1031 01:20:49.479 --> 01:20:53.159 You know, if if if put to if it put 1032 01:20:53.239 --> 01:20:58.680 to that purpose, you know what, it would have been devastating. 1033 01:20:58.720 --> 01:21:05.079 I mean, this was the concrete particulars of that, those 1034 01:21:05.079 --> 01:21:10.239 sort of of of ara of strategic bombing at scale 1035 01:21:10.359 --> 01:21:14.239 wasn't yet known, but it was. It was. It was 1036 01:21:14.359 --> 01:21:19.520 known that you know, power projection against of what would 1037 01:21:19.520 --> 01:21:22.199 you consider it be like a both the counterforce and 1038 01:21:22.239 --> 01:21:26.119 counter value nature like it was. It was it was 1039 01:21:26.119 --> 01:21:29.319 clear that this was going to be hugely impactful in 1040 01:21:29.359 --> 01:21:36.840 the next war. And it's also you know, the like 1041 01:21:36.880 --> 01:21:42.000 we talked about before. I mean, by this time the 1042 01:21:42.000 --> 01:21:45.520 the Soviet Union had or by by the advent of 1043 01:21:45.760 --> 01:21:49.880 hostilities between Germany and Poland, the Soviet Unity captured you know, 1044 01:21:50.840 --> 01:21:54.000 four hundred and ten thousand square kilometers, which was the 1045 01:21:54.039 --> 01:21:57.319 size the entire German empires of nineteen nineteen. I mean, 1046 01:21:57.319 --> 01:22:02.600 this was not this was not Hitler couldn't afford to 1047 01:22:02.640 --> 01:22:04.760 wait and see you know what developed and then trying 1048 01:22:04.760 --> 01:22:08.800 to sinuate it, you know, a kind of a kind 1049 01:22:08.840 --> 01:22:15.319 of you know, kind of a kind of meaningful Ford 1050 01:22:15.359 --> 01:22:19.439 deployment in the Balkans by you know, a combination of 1051 01:22:19.520 --> 01:22:22.079 like threats and incentivization like it just like was not 1052 01:22:22.119 --> 01:22:27.800 in the cards the and especially when it became clear 1053 01:22:27.840 --> 01:22:33.960 that Turkey is not gonna you know, Turkey traditionally was 1054 01:22:34.000 --> 01:22:37.119 ah was one of was one of the ways Germany 1055 01:22:37.199 --> 01:22:44.479 hedged against them, you know, both UH, Russian and and 1056 01:22:44.560 --> 01:22:47.279 British power in the Mediterranean. That was that was off 1057 01:22:47.279 --> 01:22:52.640 the table. It's an interesting subtext. Late in the war, 1058 01:22:53.960 --> 01:22:56.920 the foreign ministries, like the vertures of the Foreign Ministry, 1059 01:22:56.960 --> 01:23:00.000 did make towards Ankara, but it was never I mean, 1060 01:23:00.079 --> 01:23:02.600 by that point they were you know, they were in 1061 01:23:02.640 --> 01:23:05.439 the thrones of desperation and and seeking any port in 1062 01:23:05.479 --> 01:23:12.399 a storm. It was never a serious never serious, It 1063 01:23:12.479 --> 01:23:15.239 was never seriously within the minds of anybody who who 1064 01:23:15.359 --> 01:23:20.680 was you know, realistic. But by UH by March. 1065 01:23:23.319 --> 01:23:23.840 Of UH. 1066 01:23:25.880 --> 01:23:32.319 Nineteen forty one, Hungary, Romania Slovakia had all joined the 1067 01:23:32.319 --> 01:23:38.199 Tripartheid Pact. This was a big coover Hitler because the 1068 01:23:38.279 --> 01:23:42.560 Hungarian Prime Minister finally agreed to allow German troops to 1069 01:23:42.600 --> 01:23:52.880 cross through Hungarian territory to axis you know, Romania and 1070 01:23:52.880 --> 01:23:55.239 and and and and and as well as like deploy. 1071 01:23:59.079 --> 01:24:01.439 They're basically allowed like free like in rest and egress 1072 01:24:01.479 --> 01:24:07.800 across like the Hungarian frontier. And Horthy, Admiral Horthy, who. 1073 01:24:09.720 --> 01:24:09.960 Was a. 1074 01:24:11.520 --> 01:24:19.760 Was very much adjacent to Berlin. The Hungarian foreign ministry 1075 01:24:19.880 --> 01:24:25.159 had to that point been overly hostile. They'd taken the 1076 01:24:25.199 --> 01:24:32.119 same tech as Yugoslavia had, and it was a complicated 1077 01:24:33.600 --> 01:24:37.039 Horthy's role as a regent. Uh, he was far from 1078 01:24:37.399 --> 01:24:40.000 like on more. In peace questions he had something of 1079 01:24:40.000 --> 01:24:45.119 an absolute mandate, but in in times of peace or 1080 01:24:45.520 --> 01:24:51.039 in conditions short of war, foreign relations was basically in 1081 01:24:51.159 --> 01:24:57.279 the hands of a cabinet that had you know, like 1082 01:24:57.319 --> 01:25:00.319 a long history really going, that had like you know, 1083 01:25:00.399 --> 01:25:03.439 deep roots in the in the kind of was failing system, 1084 01:25:03.680 --> 01:25:11.399 you know. So it's it's important to consider that. So 1085 01:25:14.840 --> 01:25:20.960 Hiller realized that, uh all this though, was essentially null 1086 01:25:21.039 --> 01:25:30.039 and void. If Yugoslavia couldn't it couldn't be wooed. Some 1087 01:25:30.119 --> 01:25:37.680 people speculate that the Greek operation was uh with prioritized 1088 01:25:37.720 --> 01:25:40.960 as it was because Hitler aimed to offer part of 1089 01:25:41.000 --> 01:25:48.720 northern Greece to the Ugslav government as some kind of concession. 1090 01:25:48.760 --> 01:25:50.119 Like I don't know if that's true or not, but 1091 01:25:51.359 --> 01:26:00.000 it finally, at the close of March of forty one, uh, 1092 01:26:01.560 --> 01:26:09.640 the perpetually ambivalent Yugoslavs signed a tripartit pecked psychological blow 1093 01:26:09.760 --> 01:26:15.079 to London was tremendous, you know, this was, uh, this 1094 01:26:15.239 --> 01:26:22.000 is probably the biggest, this is arguably more significant and 1095 01:26:22.079 --> 01:26:28.319 more significant policy coup then had been with Hitler. Tiso 1096 01:26:29.000 --> 01:26:35.439 had accomplished in Czechoslovakia with like discrediting Britain's claim to 1097 01:26:36.560 --> 01:26:41.199 you know, the moral high ground or to you know 1098 01:26:43.920 --> 01:26:46.840 it insinuating itself as this, you know, p part of 1099 01:26:46.880 --> 01:26:51.640 the rational arbiter of the power political affairs in the continent. 1100 01:26:52.039 --> 01:26:58.119 You know, because it was it's all of all of 1101 01:26:58.119 --> 01:27:03.640 its moves that had been couched and you know, either 1102 01:27:03.840 --> 01:27:09.520 h imperatives laid down at Versailles related the self determination, 1103 01:27:09.640 --> 01:27:12.640 which of course was ridiculous in these you know, multi 1104 01:27:12.960 --> 01:27:16.680 monstrosities that had no actual organic support or it was 1105 01:27:16.840 --> 01:27:20.840 or they were framed in terms of you know, systemic stability. 1106 01:27:21.760 --> 01:27:28.199 And obviously the fact that you know, the US law 1107 01:27:28.279 --> 01:27:33.319 to join the Tripartid Pact owing to a basic appreciation 1108 01:27:33.520 --> 01:27:38.239 of Soviet aggression and the exsidential threat represented to them, 1109 01:27:39.239 --> 01:27:42.920 because it nothing would have golled him more than again, 1110 01:27:42.960 --> 01:27:45.560 you know, like allowing Germany basically a free hand to 1111 01:27:45.720 --> 01:27:50.399 deploy across the frontiers. I mean, it speaks for itself, 1112 01:27:50.600 --> 01:28:07.680 okay it but March twenty seventh, you know, literally days 1113 01:28:07.760 --> 01:28:16.119 later Hewell reported to Hitler that they've been a cut 1114 01:28:16.439 --> 01:28:22.079 in Belgrade, Paul had been overthrown. There was crowds masking 1115 01:28:22.119 --> 01:28:27.960 outside the German legation demanding, you know, Germany get out 1116 01:28:27.960 --> 01:28:33.079 of Yugoslavia. Like you know, it's it's diplomatic representatives. We're 1117 01:28:33.079 --> 01:28:37.640 being physically threatened. The Swedish envoy had been mistaken for 1118 01:28:37.680 --> 01:28:40.199 a German, had been like beaten within an inch of 1119 01:28:40.199 --> 01:28:47.600 his life. The uh, the British diplomatic legation, which quite 1120 01:28:47.680 --> 01:28:52.600 clearly was you know, the British intelligence Service under lake 1121 01:28:52.680 --> 01:28:58.520 diplomatic cover. They were doing everything they could stir up crowds, 1122 01:28:59.119 --> 01:29:04.439 you know, and and and and and arm them. This 1123 01:29:04.600 --> 01:29:09.199 cup had been engineered. You the commanders alav Air Force. 1124 01:29:11.119 --> 01:29:17.000 He was a career officer named Dustan Samovich. He was 1125 01:29:17.000 --> 01:29:25.159 a a rabid chetnik who uh hated Germany. He organized 1126 01:29:25.159 --> 01:29:33.239 revolutionary camed it around himself. The Canra refused to ratify 1127 01:29:33.279 --> 01:29:42.600 the Tripartheid pecked however, they said they they they mouthed 1128 01:29:42.640 --> 01:29:49.840 these like mild protestations. Some of its office did saying 1129 01:29:49.880 --> 01:29:52.439 that like, well we remain you know, allied with Germany 1130 01:29:52.520 --> 01:29:57.880 against the Soviet Union, you know, which obviously was I 1131 01:29:57.880 --> 01:30:01.079 I mean, I mean, it was bizarre, okay, I mean, 1132 01:30:01.119 --> 01:30:05.479 obviously this was a move to the belief probably was 1133 01:30:05.479 --> 01:30:09.039 that like confusion would reign in Berlin such that you know, 1134 01:30:09.159 --> 01:30:14.199 there'd be some sort of paralysis of of policy decisionism. 1135 01:30:14.640 --> 01:30:16.079 And by the time that was all worked out to 1136 01:30:16.199 --> 01:30:19.359 be too late. But that was an incredibly stupid gamble, 1137 01:30:19.640 --> 01:30:29.439 especially considering the man who was at the Helm in Berlin, Hitler. 1138 01:30:29.600 --> 01:30:34.000 Uh there's Hugh Will relayed later, there's only a few 1139 01:30:34.039 --> 01:30:37.680 times he ever saw Hitler like actually like enraged, you know, 1140 01:30:37.840 --> 01:30:40.680 like uh like yelling and like slamming his fist on 1141 01:30:40.720 --> 01:30:43.439 the desk and like visibly like agitated and angry. Because 1142 01:30:43.479 --> 01:30:47.720 despite what Hollywood suggests, like Hitler wasn't that that wasn't 1143 01:30:47.760 --> 01:30:59.119 his nature, but that he uh summoned uh title immediate 1144 01:30:59.119 --> 01:31:07.680 and yodo and immediately he apparently, uh I called himself 1145 01:31:07.720 --> 01:31:10.920 down and he said that, you know, owing a chorus, 1146 01:31:10.960 --> 01:31:14.840 and I just to his Austrian upbringing, what his experience 1147 01:31:14.920 --> 01:31:17.319 in the Great War, you know, he said that, you know, 1148 01:31:17.439 --> 01:31:24.000 chauvinistic Serbs, you know, they've always been they've the've always 1149 01:31:24.000 --> 01:31:30.319 been responsible for you know, catastrophes at scale, you know, 1150 01:31:30.359 --> 01:31:37.560 and uh, they're they're they're doing this again, and this 1151 01:31:37.640 --> 01:31:43.800 will not stand, he said. He already fueled the send immediately. 1152 01:31:45.199 --> 01:31:51.680 Von Brausich at that time was still the Army chief 1153 01:31:51.720 --> 01:31:58.920 of staff. He summoned the Hungarian, the Hungarian and Bulgarian 1154 01:31:59.159 --> 01:32:07.600 diplomatic and boys. He told the Hungarian envoy that Uh, 1155 01:32:08.840 --> 01:32:13.239 the hour had struck. Quote for Hungary's revenge, he said that. 1156 01:32:13.359 --> 01:32:16.880 Hitler said that Berlin would support any, any, all territorial 1157 01:32:16.880 --> 01:32:27.399 claims against Yugoslavia held by Hungary. He offered the Hungarians 1158 01:32:27.439 --> 01:32:34.399 access to the port of Flume or Fume, I don't 1159 01:32:34.399 --> 01:32:40.319 know how it's pronounced, which would give them interesting to 1160 01:32:40.359 --> 01:32:50.880 the Adriatic. The Bulgarian envoy name of dragon off he offered, uh. 1161 01:32:51.000 --> 01:32:57.319 He offered Bulgaria Macedonia. Is it just outright? He had 1162 01:32:57.359 --> 01:32:59.600 a brief work conference with the holder brush it's and 1163 01:32:59.680 --> 01:33:04.279 riven up, he said. The broad plan of assault in 1164 01:33:04.319 --> 01:33:06.960 the Balkans, he said, politically, it's vital to fall upon 1165 01:33:07.000 --> 01:33:12.640 the Balkans without mercy. And again this was actually rare 1166 01:33:13.279 --> 01:33:17.520 language for Hitler. He said, Yugoslavia to be your garden, 1167 01:33:17.600 --> 01:33:19.399 is an enemy and there were to be destroyed as 1168 01:33:19.479 --> 01:33:25.199 rapidly as possible, whatever protestations of loyalty should momentarily utter 1169 01:33:28.239 --> 01:33:47.119 now again the it's uh, the subjects here wasn't just 1170 01:33:47.199 --> 01:33:56.239 that the Semovich coup had been facilitated not an absolute measure, 1171 01:33:56.319 --> 01:34:01.800 but in essential terms by London, but the communist part 1172 01:34:01.840 --> 01:34:05.720 of Yugoslavia. They played no part in the coup, but 1173 01:34:05.840 --> 01:34:10.319 they made a significant contribution to the mass like street 1174 01:34:10.359 --> 01:34:14.039 protests and uprising that is signal popular support for it. 1175 01:34:14.720 --> 01:34:17.319 And again too, this was a a dicinctly like anti 1176 01:34:17.399 --> 01:34:23.279 German flavor, you know, so like Moscow's hand was in 1177 01:34:23.319 --> 01:34:26.319 this two you know, And that's the point I'm making 1178 01:34:26.319 --> 01:34:29.119 people again and again, you know, like the Germans where 1179 01:34:29.119 --> 01:34:31.319 you're talking about the okaw, whether you're talking like this 1180 01:34:31.439 --> 01:34:33.880 is a rare example of a quorum. You had a Hitler, 1181 01:34:34.000 --> 01:34:35.800 you had a Quel, We had Don Browschitch, you had 1182 01:34:35.880 --> 01:34:39.279 Ribbon Trup, you totally had title, basically had everybody who 1183 01:34:39.399 --> 01:34:43.800 later on, you know, basically by December forty one, it 1184 01:34:43.880 --> 01:34:47.319 was like a total fracturing here of of of worldview 1185 01:34:48.720 --> 01:34:52.840 as well as ideas on strategy, both immediate and grand. 1186 01:34:53.359 --> 01:34:55.760 But there was like an absolute consensus that then they 1187 01:34:55.800 --> 01:34:59.399 were there. The permimborial news was tightening around Germany owing 1188 01:34:59.439 --> 01:35:03.279 to these developments in Yugoslavia. And UH that was not 1189 01:35:03.720 --> 01:35:10.359 unfounded paranoia, that was absolutely correct, okay, which begs the 1190 01:35:10.439 --> 01:35:14.920 question as to what London was thinking. I mean, Salin, Stalin, 1191 01:35:15.359 --> 01:35:17.399 Stalin could afford to kind of like wait and see 1192 01:35:18.159 --> 01:35:21.319 how these machinations would develop, Like why what what that 1193 01:35:21.479 --> 01:35:25.720 was London doing with you know, provoking the Reich again 1194 01:35:25.720 --> 01:35:28.880 and again into like a war that the British couldn't win. 1195 01:35:29.479 --> 01:35:31.439 I think it was just it was raw hubers in 1196 01:35:31.479 --> 01:35:34.920 my opinion, and they they underestimated Hitler again and again 1197 01:35:34.960 --> 01:35:46.560 and again and again. The UH official directive April sixth, 1198 01:35:46.600 --> 01:35:49.800 nineteen forty one, it was fear Directive of twenty five. 1199 01:35:51.680 --> 01:35:55.880 It's coloqually known as Operation twenty five, okay, or the 1200 01:35:55.920 --> 01:36:01.000 April War. April six forty one. The invaded. The assault 1201 01:36:01.039 --> 01:36:04.279 and Yugoslavia commenced and overwhelming, first with an overwhelming air 1202 01:36:04.319 --> 01:36:07.840 assault and Belgrade with aloof off of targeting all facilities. 1203 01:36:07.840 --> 01:36:14.720 The Royal Yugoslav Air Force. The Vermont assaulted from southwestern Bulgaria. 1204 01:36:16.600 --> 01:36:20.960 They were reinforced by thrust from Romania, Hungary and UH. 1205 01:36:21.039 --> 01:36:27.000 The Ostmark which is Austria, Los Angeles. Italian forces were 1206 01:36:27.039 --> 01:36:30.760 limited to air and artillery assaults until the Elemath to April, 1207 01:36:31.359 --> 01:36:35.119 when the Italian Army was permitted to assault towards what's 1208 01:36:35.159 --> 01:36:42.079 modern day Slovenia across uh Jubijana, which I'm sure I 1209 01:36:42.119 --> 01:36:48.439 butchered the pronunciation. On the same day Hungarian forces and 1210 01:36:48.560 --> 01:36:54.800 their the was then Baca and Aranya. But like and 1211 01:36:54.920 --> 01:36:59.640 both the Italians, Hungarians faced basically no resistance. Okay, there 1212 01:36:59.680 --> 01:37:02.039 was a roslav counter assault into the northern parts of 1213 01:37:02.039 --> 01:37:05.640 the Italian protector of Albania, which gained some initial ground, 1214 01:37:05.800 --> 01:37:09.359 but the like the Yugoslavs, the Yugoslav army was in 1215 01:37:09.399 --> 01:37:14.840 total collapse by that point. Now, why did the Yugoslav 1216 01:37:14.960 --> 01:37:21.439 army just suddenly, like rapidly collapse, Well, I believe, and 1217 01:37:21.640 --> 01:37:25.319 people have downplayed this lately owing to their own sort 1218 01:37:25.319 --> 01:37:36.520 of misguided concepts that the ideological narrative. I mean, there's 1219 01:37:36.560 --> 01:37:43.920 a substantial uh Volksdotch community in Croatia and Valdier Slovena also, 1220 01:37:44.079 --> 01:37:49.159 I mean Croatians, Slovenians, Croatians and Slovenians had you know, 1221 01:37:49.159 --> 01:37:53.560 they were abjectly opposed to the Yugoslav regime, which was 1222 01:37:53.640 --> 01:37:56.560 essentially like a Chetnick regime in disguise, and this constant 1223 01:37:56.600 --> 01:37:59.479 had been a very effective fifth column and at least superficially, 1224 01:37:59.560 --> 01:38:03.199 the Royal the Royal Goslav Royal Yugoslav Army was a 1225 01:38:03.279 --> 01:38:08.640 multi ethnic army. It uh, it had to maintain the 1226 01:38:08.680 --> 01:38:12.840 appearance of not just being you know, a like like 1227 01:38:12.880 --> 01:38:17.680 a like a chet Nik revolutionary element. So I mean, 1228 01:38:17.760 --> 01:38:20.399 I I think basically nobody but the Serbs were going 1229 01:38:20.439 --> 01:38:26.079 to fight, okay, and the mask the mask dropped. Proverbially, 1230 01:38:27.039 --> 01:38:30.199 the armistice was signed on the seventeenth of April forty one. 1231 01:38:30.800 --> 01:38:33.439 You know, based on the what amount of the uncungental 1232 01:38:33.479 --> 01:38:36.479 surrender Yuoslav Army, it just no longer existed, okay. I 1233 01:38:36.520 --> 01:38:40.319 mean a combination of annihilation of forces and being like 1234 01:38:40.439 --> 01:38:45.680 mass desertion and you know, just garrisons, you know, command 1235 01:38:45.720 --> 01:38:48.720 garrison commanders just surrendering without firing a shot. You know. 1236 01:38:50.760 --> 01:38:52.920 The armists came into effect at noon the next day. 1237 01:38:54.640 --> 01:38:57.920 The Commomity with Slavia was an occupying partition by the Axis. 1238 01:38:58.920 --> 01:39:03.640 Most of Serbia and but not became a German occupation zone. 1239 01:39:03.840 --> 01:39:07.600 Other areas or other areas of what had been Yugoslavia 1240 01:39:08.720 --> 01:39:14.279 were annexed by Hungary, Italy, Albania, Bulgaria, and of course 1241 01:39:14.319 --> 01:39:18.479 Croatia became the nd H. And we'll get into that momentarily. 1242 01:39:18.600 --> 01:39:25.760 But the the Yugoslav army or what remained of it 1243 01:39:28.560 --> 01:39:35.560 military command like officially you know, and uh what what 1244 01:39:35.720 --> 01:39:40.119 remained of its infrastructure just formally became under you know, 1245 01:39:40.159 --> 01:39:45.039 like SETNA authority in command. So I mean, obviously this 1246 01:39:45.039 --> 01:39:47.079 this happened literally within hours, you know what I mean. 1247 01:39:47.079 --> 01:39:50.720 That's it's it's obvious. What was that the reality of 1248 01:39:50.760 --> 01:39:57.560 the you know, the like the the Yugoslavian state, they 1249 01:39:57.720 --> 01:40:01.359 became you know, a like kind of negatively apparent to all. 1250 01:40:04.000 --> 01:40:08.000 But it's but again it's one of the I guess 1251 01:40:08.079 --> 01:40:15.159 Hitler's exact words. Inf're a directive of twenty five and 1252 01:40:15.279 --> 01:40:22.359 forgive me, forgive me if my Chicagoese excellent butchers. This 1253 01:40:22.800 --> 01:40:33.319 is Yugoslavian militarish und stops builds Schlagen, which means the 1254 01:40:33.319 --> 01:40:36.520 the total instruction of Yugoslavia militarily and as a state 1255 01:40:36.760 --> 01:40:41.000 for all time, and to do so with pitiless, without 1256 01:40:41.039 --> 01:40:56.159 without mercy. Okay, Now enter the Shah and Polovich and 1257 01:40:56.239 --> 01:40:58.239 like who were they and who was he? Because this 1258 01:40:58.359 --> 01:41:05.640 is key I just doneerstanding how events developed, but it's 1259 01:41:05.680 --> 01:41:08.800 also it's key understanding the like the modern Croatian state, 1260 01:41:08.920 --> 01:41:12.000 including the Croatia that exists today. I'm not saying that 1261 01:41:13.279 --> 01:41:15.600 Croatia today or we're even tu to my Croati was 1262 01:41:15.600 --> 01:41:20.119 just literally like the NDH. But Tujman deliberately drew upon 1263 01:41:20.319 --> 01:41:23.239 that precedence, you know, which again kind of defeats this 1264 01:41:23.319 --> 01:41:26.399 claim by court history that oh, well, you know the list, 1265 01:41:26.399 --> 01:41:30.800 this show was nothing. But you know what, this this 1266 01:41:30.800 --> 01:41:35.000 this client regime with no depth that nobody supported, you know, 1267 01:41:35.039 --> 01:41:40.199 whether I mean, how anybody feels about it. It's you know, 1268 01:41:40.439 --> 01:41:43.000 if we're talking about modern creation statehood, we're talking about 1269 01:41:43.000 --> 01:41:46.800 the Eustashire regime. And Pavlich himself was an incredibly dynamic person. 1270 01:41:46.960 --> 01:41:50.279 You know. It was not some peasant rabble rouser or 1271 01:41:50.359 --> 01:41:55.439 some or some military straw man. You know, he was 1272 01:41:55.479 --> 01:41:58.840 actually he was. He was quite talking about politan and 1273 01:41:58.840 --> 01:42:01.199 and and just lived a remarkable life. And he was 1274 01:42:01.239 --> 01:42:04.600 a lawyer by trade versu and foremost, I mean he 1275 01:42:04.760 --> 01:42:08.199 very early on bloodied his hands as a political soldier 1276 01:42:08.279 --> 01:42:12.640 and a partisan. But that wasn't that that he was 1277 01:42:13.000 --> 01:42:25.359 a man of many faces. Okay, he dasha, I wrote, Canaries, 1278 01:42:25.880 --> 01:42:29.159 you know, the chief of the adverb, which was Germany's 1279 01:42:29.199 --> 01:42:32.960 foreign intelligence service. This is one of the AD there's 1280 01:42:33.000 --> 01:42:36.359 greatest successes. Okay. And there are some key successes of 1281 01:42:36.399 --> 01:42:39.680 the AD there, despite the fact Canaries was not just 1282 01:42:39.720 --> 01:42:41.920 a fifth columnist, he was an active trader. He was 1283 01:42:42.000 --> 01:42:45.119 collaborating with the Allies. Okay. So the AD there was 1284 01:42:45.199 --> 01:42:48.199 totally compromised from the top down on some level. The 1285 01:42:48.319 --> 01:42:49.800 s S always knew this, and this was one of 1286 01:42:49.880 --> 01:42:53.840 the imperatives for the development of the s D, which 1287 01:42:53.840 --> 01:42:55.640 would seem on his face to be just like a 1288 01:42:55.720 --> 01:43:04.880 redundant bureaucracy within the security apparatus. But there were some 1289 01:43:05.079 --> 01:43:10.479 bona fide, brilliant operational successes carried off by the AD there. 1290 01:43:10.880 --> 01:43:17.159 Like whether that was because in at operational levels there 1291 01:43:17.199 --> 01:43:20.479 were committed national socialists who were following through as if 1292 01:43:20.840 --> 01:43:23.960 you know, there the institution they started to not being compromised. 1293 01:43:24.560 --> 01:43:31.199 Whether Canaris had you know, mixed feelings about his loyalties 1294 01:43:31.680 --> 01:43:37.239 like this is not clear, but the EUSTA shows a 1295 01:43:37.359 --> 01:43:45.520 sendency owed obviously not exclusively, but an essential contributing cause 1296 01:43:45.560 --> 01:43:48.840 of its success was the fact that, uh, you know, 1297 01:43:49.159 --> 01:43:54.600 Canaris had had fermented a breakaway Croatian movement from early on. Okay, 1298 01:43:55.840 --> 01:43:58.520 and a A this is this, this is an armed 1299 01:43:59.199 --> 01:44:02.760 vanguardist around movement. There was no concept of it, you know, 1300 01:44:02.840 --> 01:44:05.600 abiding legality. There was no concept of it standing for 1301 01:44:05.640 --> 01:44:09.680 contested elections. A different situation than in Weymar. Okay. The only, 1302 01:44:10.640 --> 01:44:20.079 the only, the only way a prod national constitution, a 1303 01:44:20.159 --> 01:44:22.520 prod national state was going to be realized was was 1304 01:44:22.640 --> 01:44:25.800 through was was by the gun and by the knife. Okay, 1305 01:44:27.279 --> 01:44:37.479 Canaris is obvious kind of a choice for a leadership 1306 01:44:37.520 --> 01:44:44.039 element was a general named Sladko Katternic. He was an 1307 01:44:44.079 --> 01:44:45.640 officer of the old Hasperg Army. 1308 01:44:47.520 --> 01:44:48.119 He uh. 1309 01:44:50.479 --> 01:44:53.920 When the USA shad did seize power. He initially was 1310 01:44:54.600 --> 01:44:58.479 the kind of the figurehead aided by the adverts what 1311 01:44:58.680 --> 01:45:01.319 was code named in Jupiter organization, which was it's kind 1312 01:45:01.359 --> 01:45:06.399 of like direct action. Elements after the indefinite state have 1313 01:45:06.439 --> 01:45:11.680 been set up like Povlish, doctor Ante Povlish, who spent 1314 01:45:11.800 --> 01:45:14.159 long years in exile in Italy by that point was 1315 01:45:14.199 --> 01:45:20.119 like revealed as Cooklovnik, which means approximately means fure Cervil Croatian. Okay, 1316 01:45:22.800 --> 01:45:32.840 why the bait and switch of a figureheads like no 1317 01:45:35.720 --> 01:45:46.399 Pavlic Noura Laura Fetternic. We're we're ciphers. They both wielded 1318 01:45:46.439 --> 01:45:49.439 tremendous power and cloud. But I'm talking when I say figurehead, 1319 01:45:49.479 --> 01:45:54.439 I mean in terms of outward appearances. When of Hitler's 1320 01:45:54.520 --> 01:45:58.520 challenges with balancing Italian demands on the Balkans and specifically Croatia, 1321 01:46:00.239 --> 01:46:05.520 in order to placate Mussolini over among other things, the 1322 01:46:05.640 --> 01:46:10.680 murder of Dolphus and the subsequent ansaluse and other things, 1323 01:46:11.439 --> 01:46:16.439 early on, he agreed to see the Dalmatian coast to 1324 01:46:16.600 --> 01:46:19.960 Italy at least as a sphere of influence and an 1325 01:46:20.000 --> 01:46:23.359 event of in an event in general war, you know, 1326 01:46:23.520 --> 01:46:27.039 as a as a territorial imperative that they would be 1327 01:46:27.079 --> 01:46:35.239 permitted to capture. This caused intense resentment in Zagreb, but 1328 01:46:36.439 --> 01:46:43.960 Hitler realized it was unnecessary evil. Okay, Now, Pavolic, having 1329 01:46:44.079 --> 01:46:47.760 spent so many years in Italy and having courted, really 1330 01:46:48.000 --> 01:46:54.239 since nineteen thirty two thirty three alliance with the Italian fascists, 1331 01:46:55.319 --> 01:46:58.079 he was kind of Mussolini. He wasn't Mussolini's man, is 1332 01:46:58.239 --> 01:47:02.920 sometimes alleged in Zagreb, but he was Italians, and frankly, 1333 01:47:04.159 --> 01:47:06.760 when it game clear that if he was gonna do Croatia, 1334 01:47:06.920 --> 01:47:11.239 just kind of like this exploitable aspect I brought published 1335 01:47:11.920 --> 01:47:18.800 in the National Socialist camps so firmly. Okay Canarius is 1336 01:47:18.920 --> 01:47:26.079 uh adjutant was a He was an officer by name 1337 01:47:26.159 --> 01:47:34.640 of u Lahausen. He warned Uh the fear as well 1338 01:47:34.720 --> 01:47:38.840 as his boss Canarios, that they had to proceed very delicately, 1339 01:47:39.000 --> 01:47:44.399 that the resentment over the loss of Dalmatia and just 1340 01:47:44.479 --> 01:47:47.199 kind of the the arrogance which the Italians were proceeding 1341 01:47:48.520 --> 01:47:58.560 was wreaking absolutely havoc. He's at the literally said, Uh, 1342 01:47:58.880 --> 01:48:01.640 the Cross are people of honor with a long military tradition, 1343 01:48:03.000 --> 01:48:05.199 and it is better beyond words to be trodden down 1344 01:48:05.239 --> 01:48:07.159 and humiliated now by an army has not been able 1345 01:48:07.199 --> 01:48:09.239 to pin one victory to its colors, speaking of the 1346 01:48:09.279 --> 01:48:17.239 Italian army. Okay now who was Ante Pavolich public was 1347 01:48:17.279 --> 01:48:22.680 born and Hurtzegovina. The village of Redina, which is literally 1348 01:48:22.760 --> 01:48:32.479 in the mountains Okay in a central Bosnia, roughly nine 1349 01:48:32.520 --> 01:48:37.720 miles southwest of Hezichi. It was then part of the 1350 01:48:37.760 --> 01:48:41.920 Ottoman Empire, but it had been seated. It was formerly 1351 01:48:42.000 --> 01:48:46.640 under the sovereignty of the Sultan, but it had been 1352 01:48:46.800 --> 01:48:48.840 but the entirety of Bosnians to go Vina had phone 1353 01:48:48.920 --> 01:48:51.800 under Habsburg rule by eighteen seventy eight order the Congress 1354 01:48:51.840 --> 01:48:56.359 of Berlin. Okay, And essentially it was it was a 1355 01:48:56.439 --> 01:48:59.359 conquest without a shot being fired, as the Habsburgs raidn 1356 01:48:59.520 --> 01:49:02.359 army of a on thirty thousand men and threatened to 1357 01:49:02.399 --> 01:49:05.720 assault it. And this is this is one of the 1358 01:49:07.560 --> 01:49:09.720 if you'll allow the tangent, this is this is one 1359 01:49:09.760 --> 01:49:14.760 indicator of Ottoman power, like precipitously having deteriorated. They didn't 1360 01:49:14.760 --> 01:49:16.520 even they didn't even take the field of battle. They 1361 01:49:16.640 --> 01:49:20.279 just like seed it with some meaningless with with the 1362 01:49:20.319 --> 01:49:26.159 concession of some meaningless declaration that it remained under perhaps 1363 01:49:26.600 --> 01:49:30.479 remained under Ottoman authority. But there's an interesting dynamic here 1364 01:49:30.560 --> 01:49:35.720 of a cultural nature, and this impacted powers just upbringing directly. Now, 1365 01:49:41.319 --> 01:49:45.079 all of his parents had moved to Bosnia from a 1366 01:49:47.079 --> 01:49:49.800 village that was in Croatia proper or like what what 1367 01:49:49.880 --> 01:49:54.119 would be in Croatia within Croatia propers borders today. His 1368 01:49:54.279 --> 01:49:57.479 father had done so to work on UH the Sarajevo 1369 01:49:59.479 --> 01:50:04.640 rail line, but ultimately as a small child, the family 1370 01:50:04.760 --> 01:50:09.119 settled in a village called gi Zitto or Ja Zero 1371 01:50:10.119 --> 01:50:14.119 or public in a primary school. But Zero was a 1372 01:50:15.520 --> 01:50:21.359 Bosnia majority domain. It was overwhelmingly sunny Moslim, so pabolish 1373 01:50:21.399 --> 01:50:23.239 the crowd he attended. 1374 01:50:23.399 --> 01:50:23.520 UH. 1375 01:50:23.840 --> 01:50:28.479 The primary schools he attended were maktub like a maktab 1376 01:50:28.640 --> 01:50:31.760 is a is like an Islamic elementary school. Okay, So 1377 01:50:31.920 --> 01:50:37.039 Pablics learned published until the day he died, you know, 1378 01:50:37.640 --> 01:50:41.119 confessed his sins and went to mass daily. But he 1379 01:50:41.319 --> 01:50:45.399 was raised literally like in Moslim traditions and lessons, and 1380 01:50:45.840 --> 01:50:47.640 he knew the deep wore of his lamb like he 1381 01:50:47.720 --> 01:50:50.479 knew it's like liturgical practice, like he knew like it's 1382 01:50:51.920 --> 01:50:54.399 he knew everything about it. He was like almost he 1383 01:50:54.479 --> 01:50:57.680 was almost like half raised as like a Maslim. Okay. 1384 01:51:01.279 --> 01:51:05.680 And this is why in the NBA Sunni Islam was 1385 01:51:05.760 --> 01:51:11.840 the other state religion, along with Catholicism and uh Hanjar. 1386 01:51:12.960 --> 01:51:20.600 The bosniakafnss it's national identifier was first Croatian because official 1387 01:51:20.680 --> 01:51:26.119 policy by order of povl It was it was that 1388 01:51:26.279 --> 01:51:31.439 Bosnian Muslims are racial Croatians, and I'm going to I'm 1389 01:51:31.479 --> 01:51:34.199 gonna make people happy because like I brought like props today. 1390 01:51:35.279 --> 01:51:38.439 This is like the fez that like Hanjar like division 1391 01:51:38.479 --> 01:51:42.640 would where can people see that? I think this is awesome, 1392 01:51:43.359 --> 01:51:45.640 Like uh, the other people don't. But it's like literally 1393 01:51:45.720 --> 01:51:49.800 like a fez with a totem Kopp and a reich Saddler. 1394 01:51:50.520 --> 01:51:51.880 You know, I don't think it would look too like 1395 01:51:51.960 --> 01:51:54.479 cool on me, but like it's it's just freaking cool. 1396 01:51:55.079 --> 01:51:56.560 But but I mean, this is the this is like 1397 01:51:56.600 --> 01:51:59.560 I'm seriously like this was taken. This wasn't just like superficial. 1398 01:51:59.720 --> 01:52:08.640 So you know, Pavlic was h quintessentially cosmopolitan and like 1399 01:52:08.720 --> 01:52:11.520 that even more than it was apparent in his early 1400 01:52:11.600 --> 01:52:21.520 life as we'll get into but he uh he As 1401 01:52:21.560 --> 01:52:27.640 he became a teenager and a young adult, he had 1402 01:52:27.680 --> 01:52:29.880 a he had a much older brother who lived in 1403 01:52:30.039 --> 01:52:36.439 uh in Zagreb and during kind of like as as 1404 01:52:36.760 --> 01:52:40.399 as police got an adolescence when he was attending school 1405 01:52:40.520 --> 01:52:42.880 and trad and he became a hero in a nationalist 1406 01:52:43.520 --> 01:52:47.239 idealogues like guys who who proceeded what we came with 1407 01:52:47.279 --> 01:52:51.800 the Croatian Party of rights first and foremost a guy 1408 01:52:51.880 --> 01:52:58.199 named uh Anteashevich was like an early uh like like 1409 01:52:58.399 --> 01:53:02.840 like you know, like like froat nationalist, you know, and 1410 01:53:03.000 --> 01:53:06.079 like one of his uh like one of one of 1411 01:53:06.119 --> 01:53:11.000 the one of his that one of his, like like 1412 01:53:11.039 --> 01:53:18.760 one of his followers or or uh one of the 1413 01:53:18.800 --> 01:53:23.560 guys he mentored kind of like in in In in 1414 01:53:23.640 --> 01:53:25.920 the art of uh In philosophy of like you know, 1415 01:53:26.000 --> 01:53:30.439 political warfare was a you'll said Frank, who later became 1416 01:53:30.560 --> 01:53:33.479 like the leader of the Party of Rights. But Polloch's 1417 01:53:33.560 --> 01:53:35.640 notion was like, well, this is great that you know, 1418 01:53:35.800 --> 01:53:38.159 crowds have like this kind of like of Covid, this 1419 01:53:38.239 --> 01:53:41.840 kind of like racial sense of self, you know, and 1420 01:53:41.920 --> 01:53:45.159 and kind of a path forward for an independent state. 1421 01:53:45.680 --> 01:53:47.520 But his concern was that, like this is too much 1422 01:53:47.560 --> 01:53:51.479 of like a peasant phenomenon. But when he when he 1423 01:53:51.720 --> 01:53:55.039 when he when he went to stay with his elder 1424 01:53:55.119 --> 01:53:59.800 brother in Zagreb, like he realized that, you know, the 1425 01:54:00.399 --> 01:54:04.600 dialect was very much alive in Zagreb and people were 1426 01:54:04.640 --> 01:54:12.119 openly identifying, you know in you know, in what we're 1427 01:54:12.159 --> 01:54:17.399 traditionally you know, cosmopol and Habsburg cities, you know, croats. 1428 01:54:17.439 --> 01:54:20.199 We're living openly as Croats. I mean, I'm not trying 1429 01:54:20.199 --> 01:54:21.840 to be silly, but i mean like I'm trying to 1430 01:54:21.880 --> 01:54:24.079 think of the best way to characterize it and that 1431 01:54:26.800 --> 01:54:29.319 and that that. From that point on, you know, like 1432 01:54:29.439 --> 01:54:33.439 he public realized like this was this was a viable 1433 01:54:33.479 --> 01:54:39.000 way forward. Okay again as like a vang artist like 1434 01:54:40.079 --> 01:54:45.840 revolutionary imperative, you know, like again, this was the the 1435 01:54:47.560 --> 01:54:55.439 Yugoslav situation was nothing at all like the Viymor situation. It. Uh. 1436 01:54:56.319 --> 01:54:59.560 Polish was always beset by health problems from the time 1437 01:54:59.600 --> 01:55:01.960 he was like kid until he was murdered, like you know, 1438 01:55:03.600 --> 01:55:05.560 years after the war. And we'll get into that in 1439 01:55:05.600 --> 01:55:13.800 a later episode. But he uh he ultimately, he ultimately 1440 01:55:13.880 --> 01:55:21.439 took a law degree as a frankly, it was like 1441 01:55:21.520 --> 01:55:25.319 part of the chorus for partisans of the time on 1442 01:55:25.439 --> 01:55:32.000 both sides of the idological divide revolutionaries. Rather, he obtained 1443 01:55:32.039 --> 01:55:37.800 his doctorate in nineteenth July ninety fifteen, and he basically 1444 01:55:38.039 --> 01:55:41.199 uh he joined the Croatian part of the rights formally 1445 01:55:43.399 --> 01:55:47.840 around nineteen eighteen and worked as a lawyer in Zagreb. 1446 01:55:48.920 --> 01:55:54.760 It was uh nineteen twenty nine when his kind of 1447 01:55:54.840 --> 01:56:04.039 radicalization and tactical terms at least really ossified, and that 1448 01:56:04.119 --> 01:56:07.399 was around the time or it was it was literally 1449 01:56:07.399 --> 01:56:09.520 as it was at the same time as what became 1450 01:56:09.560 --> 01:56:13.239 to be known as the January Dictatorship January sixth, ninety 1451 01:56:13.279 --> 01:56:19.960 twenty nine, part literally a royal dictatorship was declared and 1452 01:56:20.119 --> 01:56:22.439 what was then the Kingdom of Serbs Cross and Slovenes, 1453 01:56:22.840 --> 01:56:25.560 King Alexander the first we talked about some in our 1454 01:56:25.560 --> 01:56:32.439 World War One episodes. Alexander's notion was quite literally to 1455 01:56:32.560 --> 01:56:37.159 create a Yugoslav ideology and a single Yugoslav nation, you know, 1456 01:56:37.279 --> 01:56:42.039 like under his dictatorship through you know, a combination of 1457 01:56:43.760 --> 01:56:48.960 of of a population force, population transfer, suppression of discrete languages, 1458 01:56:49.560 --> 01:56:54.760 presumably you know, outright suppression of the Islamic religion. You know, UH, 1459 01:56:56.359 --> 01:56:59.680 attempts to strip the Cross of the ability to pursue 1460 01:57:00.520 --> 01:57:08.039 and express culture and in public and shared forums. It 1461 01:57:08.479 --> 01:57:11.399 ended in nineteen thirty one with the adoption of Yugoslav 1462 01:57:11.479 --> 01:57:14.880 constitution what was called the Yugoslat ninth round Uslut Constitution. 1463 01:57:15.760 --> 01:57:18.239 But the but the damage was done, Okay, Any people 1464 01:57:18.319 --> 01:57:26.079 realize that in their view, UH, the two probable outcomes 1465 01:57:26.720 --> 01:57:30.960 for any Yugoslavian enterprises, either that there's going to be 1466 01:57:31.039 --> 01:57:38.039 a Chetnik dictatorship, you know, with the alibi or the 1467 01:57:38.159 --> 01:57:40.239 mask rather of oh, this is you know, a multi 1468 01:57:40.600 --> 01:57:44.399 this is a multi ethnic state. You know, we're all 1469 01:57:44.760 --> 01:57:48.000 where the rights of all all the all three ethnic 1470 01:57:48.039 --> 01:57:50.600 groups are are honored. Or it was going to be, 1471 01:57:51.680 --> 01:57:55.079 you know, uh, it was going to be a matter 1472 01:57:55.159 --> 01:57:57.800 of you know, the act of suppression essentially of all 1473 01:57:59.039 --> 01:58:02.239 of all cultural Russian, not unlike what's happening in the 1474 01:58:02.319 --> 01:58:06.520 Soviet Union, you know, under the but without even the 1475 01:58:06.600 --> 01:58:09.800 kind of ideological culture of Marcist Leninism to prop it up. 1476 01:58:10.079 --> 01:58:13.000 You know, this kind of this kind of utterly contrived 1477 01:58:13.520 --> 01:58:16.880 you know, Yugoslavism as a little more than a pretext 1478 01:58:16.960 --> 01:58:23.239 for you know, the crushing of of discreet historical identities 1479 01:58:24.760 --> 01:58:30.720 at this time published formerly organized the Eustaship. I have 1480 01:58:30.880 --> 01:58:34.039 absolutely no fluency in serbral croat as I understand it, 1481 01:58:34.119 --> 01:58:36.159 and I'm sure the fellows who do will correct me 1482 01:58:36.199 --> 01:58:39.359 if I'm wrong. I believe USTA should roughly translates to 1483 01:58:39.560 --> 01:58:48.520 insurgents or insurgency. Okay. The official founding in Ustacial lore 1484 01:58:49.000 --> 01:58:51.840 like to this day, is that the party was founded 1485 01:58:51.920 --> 01:59:00.119 on January seventh, nineteen twenty nine, It was around this 1486 01:59:00.279 --> 01:59:07.680 time UH published came under basically like constant um police surveillance. 1487 01:59:09.239 --> 01:59:12.399 During one during a lapse in this surveillance, uh he 1488 01:59:13.000 --> 01:59:22.560 fled to Austria and uh proceeded like nominally under the 1489 01:59:23.600 --> 01:59:26.199 with with under the predext of you know, seeking medical treatment. 1490 01:59:27.039 --> 01:59:30.039 But it's not going health problems there. You know, Vienna 1491 01:59:30.079 --> 01:59:32.800 at that time was completely lit, you know, by conspiratorial 1492 01:59:32.920 --> 01:59:36.239 designs and people pursuing those designs, and I mean that 1493 01:59:36.399 --> 01:59:37.920 that was the place to be frankly, if you were 1494 01:59:37.920 --> 01:59:40.800 trying to accomplish what he was trying to accomplish. You know, 1495 01:59:40.920 --> 01:59:45.600 he he made he made contact with other craigras who were, 1496 01:59:45.880 --> 01:59:51.520 you know, looking for some kind of catalyzing or organizational imperative, 1497 01:59:51.760 --> 01:59:56.239 you know, to develop cadres. Most of these guys were 1498 01:59:56.279 --> 02:00:00.079 political refugees, you know, they've been chased out of of 1499 02:00:00.920 --> 02:00:04.279 Soviet territory, or they were being terrorized by the Yugoslavian 1500 02:00:04.319 --> 02:00:07.960 secret police, you know, or they were they were for 1501 02:00:08.159 --> 02:00:13.680 Habsburg army officers, you know, who'd refused to return Yugoslavia, 1502 02:00:13.840 --> 02:00:16.119 you know, after the succession of you know, chetnik and 1503 02:00:17.159 --> 02:00:27.319 royalist intrigues. After a short stay there where he made 1504 02:00:27.359 --> 02:00:33.960 contact with, among other people, some Bulgarian radicals. What a 1505 02:00:34.039 --> 02:00:37.920 similar you know, with similar ambitions in mind to their 1506 02:00:37.960 --> 02:00:43.279 own peoples. He moved to Budapest, where there was a 1507 02:00:43.359 --> 02:00:49.520 more kind of welcoming environment for partisans the right Okay. 1508 02:00:52.840 --> 02:00:59.680 In March of nineteen twenty nine, the Eustasha elements still 1509 02:00:59.720 --> 02:01:05.960 within Yugoslavia undertook a campaign a direct action, the first 1510 02:01:06.520 --> 02:01:11.399 incidents of which was the assassination of A Tony Schigel 1511 02:01:12.119 --> 02:01:16.039 in Zagre. Schigel was basically a regime mouthpiece. He was 1512 02:01:16.199 --> 02:01:21.039 editor of at the top newspaper in Zagora. It was 1513 02:01:21.079 --> 02:01:23.479 a close comment on a King Alexander and Verty much 1514 02:01:23.840 --> 02:01:26.800 the mouthpiece of the regime. Like uh Lewis is should 1515 02:01:27.520 --> 02:01:34.039 murdered him? Well, this was going on the pavlic. Uh 1516 02:01:34.840 --> 02:01:41.840 He managed established contact with an element that was known 1517 02:01:41.880 --> 02:01:46.399 as the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization. This is about a 1518 02:01:46.439 --> 02:01:53.159 month subsequent to the murder of a Schlegel. Schlegel or Schligel, 1519 02:01:53.159 --> 02:02:00.880 I think it's Schlagel, but and the uh He in 1520 02:02:00.960 --> 02:02:03.720 some of his contexts Bulgarian contexts that he made in Vienna. 1521 02:02:03.840 --> 02:02:10.439 They traveled to Bulgaria in April. This led to the 1522 02:02:10.560 --> 02:02:17.960 signing by a number of partisans ethno nationalist partisan types 1523 02:02:18.840 --> 02:02:24.079 of what came to be the Sofia Declaration. It formalized 1524 02:02:24.159 --> 02:02:32.119 up It formalized cooperation between Croatian, Macedonian and Bulgarian radicals 1525 02:02:32.600 --> 02:02:38.800 like radical nationalists were posed, uh, you know, the the 1526 02:02:38.880 --> 02:02:41.920 Belgrade regime as well as the the communists and the 1527 02:02:42.000 --> 02:02:52.119 chip Nicks. Yuoslavia formally protested the government and Sofia publics 1528 02:02:52.239 --> 02:02:55.960 was then he was tried for high treason and absentia 1529 02:02:56.800 --> 02:03:01.960 and sentenced to death on the seventeenth of August nineteen 1530 02:03:01.960 --> 02:03:07.600 twenty nine. Owing to that verdict, a month subsequent, in September, 1531 02:03:07.920 --> 02:03:15.800 Publisher was arrested in Vienna. The Viennese, or sympathetic, at 1532 02:03:15.880 --> 02:03:19.279 least those in the security apparatus, you know, had more 1533 02:03:19.319 --> 02:03:24.680 than a fledging sympathy for him and his cause. Rather 1534 02:03:24.760 --> 02:03:32.840 than extraditing him, they expelled him to Germany. This caused 1535 02:03:32.880 --> 02:03:42.279 some problems because at this time there were still formally 1536 02:03:42.319 --> 02:03:47.079 good offices dilomatically speaking between Germany and Yugoslavia. The German 1537 02:03:47.119 --> 02:03:52.800 and Batchigoslavia was a typical foreign ministry veteran of the 1538 02:03:52.840 --> 02:03:57.520 time named Adolf cost was a supporter of Yugoslavia. He 1539 02:03:57.640 --> 02:04:02.199 was literally a personal friend of Tom Alexander, so this 1540 02:04:03.399 --> 02:04:10.960 obviously not bode well for Poblished before this kind of 1541 02:04:11.520 --> 02:04:16.960 hostile sentiment from you know, costas friends and my places 1542 02:04:17.000 --> 02:04:21.560 could develop into truly threatening police action against his person. 1543 02:04:21.680 --> 02:04:26.159 Published left Germany under an assumed name and went to Italy, 1544 02:04:26.479 --> 02:04:29.079 where he already had family as well as in theological contacts. 1545 02:04:29.920 --> 02:04:32.720 Now in Italy, at least for a couple of years, 1546 02:04:32.800 --> 02:04:37.079 he frequently changed location and lived under a false name. 1547 02:04:38.800 --> 02:04:42.920 He lived as an Italian national with his assuming identity 1548 02:04:42.960 --> 02:04:47.000 was at an Italian national, most Alban's Antonio Sendar or Serdar. 1549 02:04:50.119 --> 02:04:52.800 He had contact with Italian authorities at least you know, 1550 02:04:52.840 --> 02:04:56.199 the intelligence apparatus of the Fishes since at least ninety 1551 02:04:56.239 --> 02:05:00.600 twenty six, nine twenty seven. In n twenty nine he 1552 02:05:00.640 --> 02:05:07.239 managed established deeper contexts and through his UH friends in 1553 02:05:07.279 --> 02:05:10.279 the legal profession as well as some as well as 1554 02:05:10.279 --> 02:05:16.039 some radical right journalists that he befriended, he managed to 1555 02:05:16.239 --> 02:05:21.800 UH court. Mussolini's brother, Ornaldo Mussolini, was a strong supporter 1556 02:05:21.880 --> 02:05:27.000 of crowd independence, just outright and like a very like 1557 02:05:27.079 --> 02:05:32.359 a very like hardline fascist. Publish again owing to whether 1558 02:05:32.399 --> 02:05:35.439 it's his cosmopolitan upbringing or just his kind of natural 1559 02:05:35.560 --> 02:05:41.359 intelligence for sociological affairs. Wherever he went, he seemed to 1560 02:05:41.399 --> 02:05:44.560 create a basic sympathy and understanding of the crowd situation 1561 02:05:44.640 --> 02:05:48.880 among Italians, at least Italian fascist and adjacent wright wingers. 1562 02:05:49.319 --> 02:05:55.319 He was very good at this. Okay, that Fall Publish 1563 02:05:55.399 --> 02:06:02.039 published what became a widely circulated treaties really more than 1564 02:06:02.079 --> 02:06:04.079 a brochure of a less than like an actual book. 1565 02:06:05.159 --> 02:06:07.199 This ends us being widely circulated in the Third Reich, 1566 02:06:07.319 --> 02:06:15.600 especially in later years, which uh became significant for various reasons. 1567 02:06:15.680 --> 02:06:18.159 But this this, this is this brochure, if you, was 1568 02:06:18.199 --> 02:06:21.720 called the Salesment of the Croatian State Lasting Peace in 1569 02:06:21.760 --> 02:06:25.520 the Balkans, which was kind of like a it's like 1570 02:06:25.560 --> 02:06:28.880 a it was a summary of Croatian history, you know, 1571 02:06:28.960 --> 02:06:31.760 from kind of like the the you know, the the 1572 02:06:32.000 --> 02:06:39.159 Habsburg German like and and and adjacent Ustaship perspective. The 1573 02:06:39.239 --> 02:06:42.600 Italian authorities did not want to formally support the Ustaship, 1574 02:06:44.079 --> 02:06:46.920 not just because I believe it or not at this time, 1575 02:06:47.000 --> 02:06:48.840 and we made the point before, you know, kind of 1576 02:06:48.880 --> 02:06:52.039 like the zenith of this was Musolini presiding over the 1577 02:06:52.079 --> 02:06:57.600 four powers packed. But Musolini was he didn't seem it 1578 02:06:57.720 --> 02:06:59.920 himself as this as this is. It's kind of like 1579 02:07:01.359 --> 02:07:04.279 is this kind of like great negotiator who like presided 1580 02:07:04.359 --> 02:07:09.239 over these kinds of diplomatic concords and like it leads 1581 02:07:09.279 --> 02:07:15.039 a stabilizing influence. So the Italians for all of it's uh, 1582 02:07:16.119 --> 02:07:19.680 for for all of its revolutionary aptitude and capturing power, 1583 02:07:20.199 --> 02:07:23.600 like the fascists in this epoch and especially before the 1584 02:07:23.680 --> 02:07:26.920 non solution things, they were behaving very much like a 1585 02:07:27.039 --> 02:07:30.680 national conservative party, and a lot of these guys authority, 1586 02:07:30.920 --> 02:07:33.039 they didn't want to they didn't want to openly support 1587 02:07:33.239 --> 02:07:36.960 some like some like radical right partisan you know, like 1588 02:07:37.119 --> 02:07:39.920 poplished and like the Ustaship, you know, to protect the 1589 02:07:39.960 --> 02:07:43.199 reputation and for sake of optics of nothing else. And 1590 02:07:43.279 --> 02:07:46.039 that's important to understand. This is like an odd period 1591 02:07:46.159 --> 02:07:52.159 and in kind of like the the Inner Warriors, but 1592 02:07:53.159 --> 02:07:57.119 Mussolini saw them as a Mussolini at all, first and 1593 02:07:57.199 --> 02:08:02.279 foremost wanted to destroy Yugoslavia and the capture you know, 1594 02:08:02.720 --> 02:08:09.680 some kind of ingress of the Adriatic. So Publish almost 1595 02:08:09.760 --> 02:08:13.000 undoubtedly received personal support from Mussolini, and so did the 1596 02:08:13.119 --> 02:08:18.319 Ustasha generally like their offices in in Zagreb and elsewhere. 1597 02:08:20.680 --> 02:08:23.880 And towards that end, Mussolini allowed Publish to remain in 1598 02:08:23.960 --> 02:08:29.479 exile in Rome and openly trained his paramilitaries in preparation 1599 02:08:29.560 --> 02:08:35.560 for war with Yugoslavia. And UH Publish made it so. 1600 02:08:35.760 --> 02:08:43.760 He developed association with Croatian expats in Italy as well 1601 02:08:43.800 --> 02:08:47.600 as as well as HAPs for garment veterans and UH 1602 02:08:48.439 --> 02:08:55.720 Germans uh Volksdeutsch who were had direct connection, direct links 1603 02:08:55.760 --> 02:08:58.520 to the to the to the government of the Reich, 1604 02:08:59.640 --> 02:09:03.439 and a lot of these guys had very strong like 1605 02:09:03.600 --> 02:09:07.119 military experience. Okay, So he was making all that, he 1606 02:09:07.199 --> 02:09:09.880 was making all the right moves and connecting with all 1607 02:09:09.920 --> 02:09:12.920 the right people to accomplish what he wanted to accomplish. 1608 02:09:15.520 --> 02:09:19.199 Nineteen thirty one, again a financial up from Mussolini, Pobles 1609 02:09:19.319 --> 02:09:27.119 established formal camps for partisans, first UH in Boveno, Italy, 1610 02:09:29.039 --> 02:09:37.279 and ultimately UH there was camps you know, throughout throughout 1611 02:09:37.319 --> 02:09:41.319 Italy and as well as Hungary and almost certainly Bosnia, 1612 02:09:41.399 --> 02:09:51.039 though under obviously like deep cover. The UH. This created 1613 02:09:53.800 --> 02:09:57.760 this this, this, this, this kind of infrastructure facility A 1614 02:09:57.840 --> 02:10:04.880 Mussolini facilitated the smuggling of weapons and political literature in 1615 02:10:04.920 --> 02:10:11.479 Tropaganda into Yugoslavia proper. The camps were moved around constantly, 1616 02:10:14.000 --> 02:10:16.239 again at the behest of Mussolini, which you know, and 1617 02:10:17.279 --> 02:10:22.000 Musolini was kind of like he like shined brightest when 1618 02:10:22.000 --> 02:10:26.960 he was charged with a revolutionary task. You know, once 1619 02:10:28.239 --> 02:10:32.199 such revolutions had been ambitions have been consolidated, Mussolin didn't 1620 02:10:32.239 --> 02:10:35.199 shine so bright, but he was very much in his 1621 02:10:35.279 --> 02:10:40.039 element here, and Poblich was very, very fortunate to be 1622 02:10:40.119 --> 02:10:43.439 able to curry his favor and learn from him. And 1623 02:10:43.560 --> 02:10:46.319 again that's why politics can't be just be dismissed as 1624 02:10:46.359 --> 02:10:51.399 some third rate dictator or something. What he accomplished here 1625 02:10:51.880 --> 02:10:56.760 basically as a wanted man showing up in Rome without 1626 02:10:56.840 --> 02:11:00.199 any particular cloud or money and just you know, within 1627 02:11:01.199 --> 02:11:04.239 within months, you know, getting an ear with al Duce. 1628 02:11:04.439 --> 02:11:08.319 That's nothing sort of remarkable, that's Hitler like, and it's 1629 02:11:08.439 --> 02:11:18.560 an unlikelihood of ascendancy. But the Ustasha have managed to 1630 02:11:20.119 --> 02:11:25.920 establish adjacent associations not just of ethnic cross but a 1631 02:11:26.000 --> 02:11:31.720 sympathetic fascist and national socialist all throughout Western Europe and 1632 02:11:32.239 --> 02:11:36.399 in Argentina, Uruguay, Bolivia, Brazil, and even in the United 1633 02:11:36.439 --> 02:11:42.279 States and Canada did agree to which the croas developed 1634 02:11:42.319 --> 02:11:50.279 a kind of outsized cloud and national socialists and fascists 1635 02:11:50.279 --> 02:11:52.800 and adjacent circles, like they can't be overstated. I mean, 1636 02:11:52.840 --> 02:11:55.079 this is a tiny country with like a very very 1637 02:11:55.199 --> 02:11:57.680 small XPA community is because there's not that many of them, 1638 02:11:57.720 --> 02:12:02.479 and the fact that there's this kind of reach is incredible, 1639 02:12:03.039 --> 02:12:05.439 I think. I mean, obviously I'm gonna admire a pobliss 1640 02:12:05.479 --> 02:12:08.479 I mean, I think it's being unclear by now, but 1641 02:12:10.319 --> 02:12:21.640 the uh this undoubtedly in ninety three, as as these 1642 02:12:21.680 --> 02:12:25.560 elements who had been training diligently were turned loose. You know, 1643 02:12:25.600 --> 02:12:27.840 there's a series of bombings and shootings in the us 1644 02:12:27.920 --> 02:12:31.359 Lavia proper which led to just this blanket cracked down 1645 02:12:31.399 --> 02:12:34.319 a political activity as the state declared, you know, a 1646 02:12:34.359 --> 02:12:43.560 state of emergency and this counter terrorist regime. It it 1647 02:12:43.720 --> 02:12:50.680 exploited that mandate to profoundly abuse impoverished crot peasants, you know, 1648 02:12:52.039 --> 02:12:54.920 the brutality towards which was almost always meted out by 1649 02:12:55.359 --> 02:13:02.880 by Serbian police and and insecurity elements. So this was 1650 02:13:03.039 --> 02:13:05.800 kind of like a splendid example of cultivating a strategy attention, 1651 02:13:06.039 --> 02:13:08.039 you know, like among among other things, in order to 1652 02:13:08.119 --> 02:13:12.760 facilitate the emergency of a revolutionary paradigm beyond the kind 1653 02:13:12.800 --> 02:13:21.800 of narrow cadre structure. We've been going for like an 1654 02:13:21.840 --> 02:13:23.720 hour and twenty minutes and I still probably got another 1655 02:13:23.800 --> 02:13:26.439 hour material. I'm thinking if we get break in a 1656 02:13:26.479 --> 02:13:29.199 minute and then take this up in the next episode, 1657 02:13:30.680 --> 02:13:34.800 that would be fantastic. Let's do it. Let's take Yeah. Well, 1658 02:13:35.399 --> 02:13:37.399 I forgive me if that was too like long winded, 1659 02:13:37.439 --> 02:13:41.079 but there's a lot here and next episode will we'll 1660 02:13:41.159 --> 02:13:44.279 we'll deal with this, you know, the the formal ascendancy 1661 02:13:44.560 --> 02:13:49.680 of Pavlich to the office of Poklovnik, and you know, 1662 02:13:49.760 --> 02:13:51.800 the war years and sick for cash and all of 1663 02:13:51.840 --> 02:13:54.199 that stuff. I didn't realize it been going on that long. 1664 02:13:54.359 --> 02:13:58.159 So yeah, it's okay, Yeah, thanks, Yeah, do plugs real quick. 1665 02:13:58.239 --> 02:13:58.880 We'll get out here. 1666 02:13:59.319 --> 02:14:06.399 Yeah. Man. You can always find me on substack real 1667 02:14:06.520 --> 02:14:09.600 Thomas seven seven seven dot substick dot com. Actually can 1668 02:14:09.600 --> 02:14:11.479 always find me on my website. That's the best kind 1669 02:14:11.520 --> 02:14:14.640 of one stop place to find my content of all kinds. 1670 02:14:15.079 --> 02:14:18.680 It's literally Thomas seven seven seven dot com number seven 1671 02:14:19.119 --> 02:14:22.119 h O A S seven seven seven dot com. You 1672 02:14:22.119 --> 02:14:24.960 can hit me up on Telegram it's Thomas Graham again 1673 02:14:25.079 --> 02:14:28.239 number seven h O A S. Graham. You can find 1674 02:14:28.279 --> 02:14:31.600 me on x uh real capital r e A L 1675 02:14:31.840 --> 02:14:36.600 underscore number seven h O A S seven seven seven. Yeah, 1676 02:14:36.640 --> 02:14:39.239 we're we're all over the place in this in this 1677 02:14:39.359 --> 02:14:42.960 bitch man. Oh on my Instagram too, So you're gonna 1678 02:14:43.000 --> 02:14:45.039 like if you if you like, you can find like 1679 02:14:45.159 --> 02:14:46.840 my my photographs if you want to. 1680 02:14:47.600 --> 02:14:50.800 You know, it's funny. I never go on I rarely 1681 02:14:50.880 --> 02:14:53.720 go on Instagram. Sometimes someone will link me like something 1682 02:14:53.760 --> 02:14:57.960 on Instagram, like yeah or something, and it'll take me 1683 02:14:58.079 --> 02:15:01.560 to it, and then I'll back out of it and inevitably. 1684 02:15:01.039 --> 02:15:01.640 There you are. 1685 02:15:01.800 --> 02:15:05.560 There's your Instagram because you're like only one of you're 1686 02:15:05.640 --> 02:15:08.000 one of very few people that I follow, so it's 1687 02:15:08.000 --> 02:15:10.840 like I but I always see your posts. 1688 02:15:11.319 --> 02:15:13.439 It's like it's I take like a lot of photos, 1689 02:15:13.479 --> 02:15:14.880 you know, and like Instagram, it's kind of like I 1690 02:15:14.920 --> 02:15:17.039 don't like the user interface and like there it's full 1691 02:15:17.039 --> 02:15:20.399 of bots and and like creepy bullshit, like porn bullshit. 1692 02:15:20.880 --> 02:15:23.119 But it's some you know, I mean, it's a good 1693 02:15:24.159 --> 02:15:26.439 there's like that's why I met like Nego Klaw and stuff, 1694 02:15:26.479 --> 02:15:29.000 and like it's it's a good place to reach out, 1695 02:15:29.159 --> 02:15:33.600 especially the kind of like artsy people who are like 1696 02:15:33.920 --> 02:15:36.800 politically politically adjacent but not really kind of like in 1697 02:15:37.199 --> 02:15:41.880 in the sphere of activity. But it's also it's just 1698 02:15:41.960 --> 02:15:44.359 like a good repository of like photos man, you know, 1699 02:15:44.439 --> 02:15:46.880 and it's it's I can rationalize like dumping a lot 1700 02:15:46.920 --> 02:15:49.479 of photos there without feeling like a fucking guro. 1701 02:15:51.760 --> 02:15:55.560 All right, till the next time. Thank you, Thomas. I 1702 02:15:55.640 --> 02:15:59.279 want to welcome everyone back to the Pekanona Show. Thomas 1703 02:15:59.439 --> 02:16:03.359 is here and part three of the Balkans. How are 1704 02:16:03.399 --> 02:16:03.680 you doing? 1705 02:16:04.800 --> 02:16:09.119 I'm doing well. Thanks for hosting me. Of course, some 1706 02:16:09.279 --> 02:16:12.560 people got upset thinking that I wasn't telling the Serbian 1707 02:16:12.720 --> 02:16:15.000 side of the story. I mean, that wasn't my intention 1708 02:16:15.119 --> 02:16:18.479 at all. Like I got kind of irritated and I 1709 02:16:18.560 --> 02:16:20.479 wasn't feeling very well. So if I said some things 1710 02:16:20.520 --> 02:16:23.520 that upset people, I mean in response to some of 1711 02:16:23.560 --> 02:16:27.560 their complaints, I wasn't trying to be up too. The 1712 02:16:27.640 --> 02:16:29.600 reason why I focused on the Croatian side is for 1713 02:16:29.680 --> 02:16:32.959 a few reasons. The whole Raizon detra of what the 1714 02:16:33.040 --> 02:16:37.200 State Department did. Even after even post Bush and Baker, 1715 02:16:37.360 --> 02:16:39.479 I'll be out of the Clint administration like went about 1716 02:16:39.479 --> 02:16:42.280 it in kind of any illiterate way in terms of 1717 02:16:42.280 --> 02:16:44.639 their rationale. I mean, like the military in those days 1718 02:16:44.760 --> 02:16:48.600 was still pretty they had their stuff together operationally. But 1719 02:16:49.280 --> 02:16:53.360 to understand why Helmet Cole did what he did, understand 1720 02:16:53.719 --> 02:16:57.319 what the view was from Washington, you've got to you've 1721 02:16:57.319 --> 02:16:59.920 got to look at what the Croatians were doing. Okay, 1722 02:17:00.079 --> 02:17:02.799 that's why today I'm gonna take up what the Serbian 1723 02:17:02.879 --> 02:17:06.680 case was and why it was entirely misguided for them 1724 02:17:06.719 --> 02:17:10.799 to be accused of starting the wars. They absolutely didn't. 1725 02:17:11.959 --> 02:17:13.559 I mean that that's that's asked on any way, to 1726 02:17:13.600 --> 02:17:16.000 claim that, you know, an ethnic conflict is like a 1727 02:17:16.079 --> 02:17:18.959 schoolyard fight and and some party combat and it's oh, 1728 02:17:19.040 --> 02:17:23.319 it's their fault. That's not how things work. And even 1729 02:17:23.360 --> 02:17:26.159 though he even though he doesn't gain a lot of sympathy, 1730 02:17:26.239 --> 02:17:28.360 I mean even from like his own people like I 1731 02:17:28.639 --> 02:17:30.520 I found slobod on the lowst Divage to actually be 1732 02:17:30.600 --> 02:17:33.440 quite a sympathetic figure what was done with with the Hague. 1733 02:17:33.559 --> 02:17:36.040 He was quite literally killed by being put on trial, 1734 02:17:36.200 --> 02:17:41.159 and I mean that was grotesque. I've actually always considered 1735 02:17:41.200 --> 02:17:45.799 myself to be pretty sympathetic to the Chetnik cause. I 1736 02:17:45.879 --> 02:17:49.440 mean not not because I find common cause with it, 1737 02:17:49.600 --> 02:17:51.479 but I mean I I'm sim of that to anybody 1738 02:17:51.559 --> 02:17:57.159 who you know, who's whose ambition is to address the 1739 02:17:57.319 --> 02:18:01.559 historical grievance of their people and in a way that 1740 02:18:01.680 --> 02:18:05.120 guarantees their posterity in the future. So today we're go 1741 02:18:05.200 --> 02:18:07.479 get a little bit into like the Serbian situation as 1742 02:18:07.559 --> 02:18:10.760 it was in nineteen ninety one, and why you know, 1743 02:18:10.840 --> 02:18:15.040 Meloseovich was basically somebody who was He was the only 1744 02:18:15.840 --> 02:18:19.840 as ahead of state other than Gerzelski, who doesn't really count. 1745 02:18:22.000 --> 02:18:24.760 He was the only he was the only Communist functionary 1746 02:18:26.000 --> 02:18:29.120 who made in an executive role after the inner German 1747 02:18:29.200 --> 02:18:33.680 border collapsed, which is interesting. So this idea that he 1748 02:18:33.840 --> 02:18:38.000 was some archchetnik, genocidal mediac, I mean that, I mean, 1749 02:18:38.040 --> 02:18:42.360 that's that that's just that's that's a propaganda narrative anyway. 1750 02:18:42.479 --> 02:18:47.120 But you know, were they were those stripes, I mean, 1751 02:18:47.159 --> 02:18:51.280 he wouldn't he wouldn't have enjoyed the posterity he did, 1752 02:18:52.200 --> 02:18:54.719 which should be obvious. But wellokre some of that stuff 1753 02:18:54.760 --> 02:19:03.719 today and hopefully people will realizing that, you know, trying 1754 02:19:03.799 --> 02:19:09.000 to assign blame to any party combat and dur any side. 1755 02:19:09.000 --> 02:19:11.239 I mean, I don't do that anyway. I mean, there's rare. 1756 02:19:11.479 --> 02:19:14.920 One of the reasons why the Ukraine situation is bizarre, 1757 02:19:14.959 --> 02:19:17.559 it's because it's a rare case of quite literally a 1758 02:19:17.639 --> 02:19:20.959 conspiracy to provoke an irrational war that almost never happens, 1759 02:19:21.719 --> 02:19:27.079 you know. But even in that case, obviously there's there's 1760 02:19:27.840 --> 02:19:30.360 conditions on the ground that make that possible. It's not 1761 02:19:30.520 --> 02:19:35.319 just some sort of spontaneous contrivance or conspiratorial design made real, 1762 02:19:35.399 --> 02:19:40.319 because that's not that's not how political affairs develop. But 1763 02:19:44.319 --> 02:19:46.959 the Third Balkan War. Misha Glenny, he's a guy who 1764 02:19:46.959 --> 02:19:50.639 I don't particularly like. I mean, he's he's basically he's 1765 02:19:50.680 --> 02:19:55.879 kind of like a typical like globalist liberal. But he 1766 02:19:56.000 --> 02:20:01.040 did actually write about the only apologia the Serbian people 1767 02:20:01.159 --> 02:20:09.719 that got like mainstream promotion, which is interesting. So he's 1768 02:20:09.799 --> 02:20:15.920 more complicated than some of his declared positions on sociological 1769 02:20:16.040 --> 02:20:21.639 things would suggest. He assigns the onset of the Third 1770 02:20:21.719 --> 02:20:25.120 Balkan War, which is what you know, people in the 1771 02:20:25.159 --> 02:20:28.600 West lump people in the West lump. The Homeland War 1772 02:20:28.959 --> 02:20:31.600 like the Bosnian War and the coast of Low conflict 1773 02:20:31.680 --> 02:20:35.719 into like one conflict. I understand why. I understand why 1774 02:20:35.799 --> 02:20:40.319 they do that, even if it's an incomplete shorthand for 1775 02:20:40.559 --> 02:20:44.920 what really is you know, free discrete conflicts that derived 1776 02:20:44.959 --> 02:20:49.040 from a common next is a causality, but something that 1777 02:20:49.079 --> 02:20:53.719 shouldn't be controversial. June twenty fifth, nineteen ninety one, that's 1778 02:20:54.799 --> 02:20:59.200 that's when hostilities arrived in the Balkans within the conflict 1779 02:20:59.319 --> 02:21:03.520 cycle that is referred to as the Third Balkan War 1780 02:21:04.000 --> 02:21:08.440 in at least an Anglophone countries. That was the date 1781 02:21:08.559 --> 02:21:12.399 that the Republican Slovenia, which led the charge towards THEE Session. 1782 02:21:12.440 --> 02:21:14.840 It wasn't the cross initially. I mean, I think they 1783 02:21:14.840 --> 02:21:17.159 would have anyway. I mean, it's an open ended question, 1784 02:21:17.360 --> 02:21:22.680 but they're the ones who who took that step that theretofore. 1785 02:21:23.840 --> 02:21:27.719 You know, tu Jaman for all of his talk of 1786 02:21:28.680 --> 02:21:32.680 creating a truly Croatian republic that like reflected you know, 1787 02:21:32.840 --> 02:21:38.760 the the singular and an exclusive culture and the Croatian people. 1788 02:21:39.440 --> 02:21:42.079 I mean, he didn't make that move, okay, until after 1789 02:21:42.079 --> 02:21:47.760 the Slovenians declared independence, after the Republic of Croatia did. 1790 02:21:49.719 --> 02:21:54.120 The Yugoslav People's Army, which was Serbian led. Some people 1791 02:21:54.559 --> 02:21:58.159 attacked me for suggesting that the security apparatus was Serb heavy. 1792 02:21:58.799 --> 02:22:02.559 Yugoslav National Army was. It wasn't overwhelmingly Serbian, but the 1793 02:22:02.639 --> 02:22:04.959 majority of general officers, to the tune of about sixty 1794 02:22:04.959 --> 02:22:07.239 and seventy percent, where ethnic Serbs. Like that, they can't 1795 02:22:07.280 --> 02:22:10.799 be denied what their symbolies were. I mean that I 1796 02:22:11.120 --> 02:22:13.479 can't tell you. I mean, I'm sure it varied. I mean, 1797 02:22:14.000 --> 02:22:21.520 but the fact of their majoritarian status can't be denied. Okay, 1798 02:22:24.719 --> 02:22:28.680 the Ugoslav army in Vados, Slovenia, and that was really 1799 02:22:28.719 --> 02:22:33.600 when the die was cast. Now the State Department claim 1800 02:22:33.719 --> 02:22:37.600 as well as what was pontificated about on the floor 1801 02:22:37.639 --> 02:22:40.799 of the United Nations, which in those days, on the 1802 02:22:40.879 --> 02:22:43.239 heels of the Gulf War, the UN still had clout, 1803 02:22:43.639 --> 02:22:47.319 which seems strange today. But there was this big hope 1804 02:22:48.239 --> 02:22:51.760 that the UN was gonna finally fulfill its you know, 1805 02:22:51.920 --> 02:22:55.120 intended function since the Cold War was over. And now 1806 02:22:56.399 --> 02:23:01.479 the reasoning was that, you know, decision making is no 1807 02:23:01.559 --> 02:23:04.799 longer going to be colored by these these kinds of 1808 02:23:04.840 --> 02:23:07.799 strategic exigencies, you know, and now the sort of community 1809 02:23:07.840 --> 02:23:09.920 and nations is going to emerge you know, and and 1810 02:23:10.000 --> 02:23:13.239 work towards like a truly globalized plege of security. That's 1811 02:23:13.280 --> 02:23:15.200 as nine in my opinion, for all kinds of reasons. 1812 02:23:15.239 --> 02:23:17.559 But that was the belief and coming off of the 1813 02:23:17.639 --> 02:23:20.479 Gulf War, which really even more so than the Korean War, 1814 02:23:20.600 --> 02:23:23.120 because I mean the Korean War, the Soviets were boycotting 1815 02:23:23.200 --> 02:23:25.600 the Security Council and so it was, and so were 1816 02:23:25.600 --> 02:23:30.680 a bunch of their client states like this when one 1817 02:23:30.680 --> 02:23:35.680 of Bush's master strokes was the Gulf War, and it 1818 02:23:35.799 --> 02:23:41.680 wasn't just a military operation executed with Prussian efficiency. There 1819 02:23:41.760 --> 02:23:45.000 was truly like a quorum of of of civilized nations 1820 02:23:45.040 --> 02:23:47.600 as it were, including the then still like said Soviet Union. 1821 02:23:48.799 --> 02:23:55.399 So when things what the hell in Yugoslavia, everybody, whether 1822 02:23:55.520 --> 02:23:57.520 you know, from Berlin to Paris to London and to 1823 02:23:57.600 --> 02:24:01.520 Tokyo to Washington, oh well, this is a un matter, 1824 02:24:01.799 --> 02:24:05.200 will come to some sort of we'll come to some 1825 02:24:05.319 --> 02:24:07.440 sort of you know, solution there. And we'll get into 1826 02:24:07.479 --> 02:24:14.040 that in a minute. But because in my opinion, conceptually 1827 02:24:14.159 --> 02:24:17.719 even people don't realize they're doing it, and even that 1828 02:24:17.879 --> 02:24:22.040 coterie of national leadership that was in place in nineteen 1829 02:24:22.120 --> 02:24:28.680 ninety one, globally, even the more sophisticated among them, they 1830 02:24:28.719 --> 02:24:31.159 were still sort of drunk on their own rhetoric, which 1831 02:24:32.159 --> 02:24:35.319 for decades by that point had been derived from you know, 1832 02:24:35.399 --> 02:24:39.159 the judgment levity at Nuremberg. They still were operating according 1833 02:24:39.159 --> 02:24:42.159 to this idea that, well, warfare has aggressors and victims, 1834 02:24:43.200 --> 02:24:45.760 or you know, it has people who strike first and 1835 02:24:45.840 --> 02:24:51.159 people are defending themselves. So I think a genuine prejudice 1836 02:24:51.159 --> 02:24:54.479 set in against the Setnik cause for a lot of reasons. 1837 02:24:55.360 --> 02:24:58.200 But initially the claim was, oh, you know, the US 1838 02:24:58.280 --> 02:25:01.559 law people's army, that that's a s Bean, that that's 1839 02:25:01.600 --> 02:25:07.760 a Serbian military force and all but names. So when 1840 02:25:07.760 --> 02:25:12.319 the Yugoslav Mansion army intervene and Slovenia, the claim was, oh, 1841 02:25:12.399 --> 02:25:15.319 this is an example of Serbia identism, you know, and 1842 02:25:15.440 --> 02:25:18.799 that's that's that that that's what's causing all of this. 1843 02:25:19.079 --> 02:25:24.319 And of course Newsweek, which in Time magazine and all 1844 02:25:24.360 --> 02:25:26.959 these kind of print media outlets which in those days too, 1845 02:25:27.239 --> 02:25:30.520 I mean, this is when the legacy media was argulated Zenith. 1846 02:25:31.760 --> 02:25:34.639 They started running these stories about you know, ethnic cleansing 1847 02:25:34.719 --> 02:25:38.600 and mass rate in Bosnia, and the framing of the 1848 02:25:39.520 --> 02:25:44.040 narrative was well, this is all happening because of Serbia identism, 1849 02:25:44.440 --> 02:25:47.680 you know, and Slovanon Belosovich is this mad dictator and 1850 02:25:47.719 --> 02:25:49.719 the only way he's hanging on to power is because 1851 02:25:49.760 --> 02:25:53.920 he's taken on a chetnik guy's none of which makes 1852 02:25:53.959 --> 02:25:59.559 any sense. And for context, at the beginning of nineteen 1853 02:25:59.600 --> 02:26:03.319 ninety one, on Yugoslavia, which still existed, there was a 1854 02:26:03.399 --> 02:26:08.920 federation of six republics with Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia, Herzegovina, 1855 02:26:09.000 --> 02:26:16.319 Montenegro and Macedonia. Plus there's two autonomous provinces, Virtual Dina 1856 02:26:16.479 --> 02:26:21.000 and Coastovoe. The eight major ethnic populations that lived in 1857 02:26:21.079 --> 02:26:24.399 those regions, they approximately correspond in the political divisions of 1858 02:26:24.440 --> 02:26:31.239 the federation, and this is by design. And in each 1859 02:26:31.319 --> 02:26:35.799 region there could each region could claim an ethnic concentration 1860 02:26:36.040 --> 02:26:41.959 that corresponded to their national signifier. But there were there 1861 02:26:42.000 --> 02:26:46.520 were deep minority populations in all of these loka. Now, 1862 02:26:49.000 --> 02:26:51.680 one big weakness in the narrative, I mean there's many, okay, 1863 02:26:52.040 --> 02:26:54.719 but one big weakness the narrative of Serbs going crazy 1864 02:26:55.879 --> 02:27:03.239 is that not not all Serbs lived in the geographic 1865 02:27:03.760 --> 02:27:08.159 region arbitually designated Serbia. There were six hundred thousand Serbs 1866 02:27:08.239 --> 02:27:13.079 lived in Croatia. The majority of these were urbanized, and 1867 02:27:13.440 --> 02:27:16.280 it went so far as tu Jaman for all, I've 1868 02:27:16.280 --> 02:27:17.840 got a lot of respect for tou Jaman and for 1869 02:27:17.959 --> 02:27:22.040 all of his sophistication as a statesman, and he wasn't 1870 02:27:22.040 --> 02:27:26.280 a military veteran, but he was basically an academic and 1871 02:27:26.840 --> 02:27:29.280 he hung around with the Serbians he hung around were 1872 02:27:29.319 --> 02:27:33.079 in Zagreb or they were cosmopolitan types, you know, who 1873 02:27:33.120 --> 02:27:37.760 he'd met in like university life. And there was the 1874 02:27:37.920 --> 02:27:45.559 urbanized Serbs in Zagreb. They had a symbiotic relationship with 1875 02:27:45.719 --> 02:27:48.360 their Croatian neighbors. Like how much of this owed to 1876 02:27:48.399 --> 02:27:50.159 the fact that they were the minority, and when you 1877 02:27:50.200 --> 02:27:52.680 were a minority, you told the line. That's an open 1878 02:27:52.799 --> 02:27:56.639 ended question. But there was even a portmanteau called Herbie, 1879 02:27:56.840 --> 02:28:04.040 which as of her body, which means cross, and serby, 1880 02:28:04.360 --> 02:28:08.280 which means serbs. So this was like a thing, all right. 1881 02:28:08.879 --> 02:28:14.239 But the core of kind of Serbian identity and patriotism 1882 02:28:15.559 --> 02:28:21.399 in Croatia it was a rural It was concentrated. Uh 1883 02:28:23.399 --> 02:28:31.479 brought slots of the countryside, particularly in Kanin Kanean, which 1884 02:28:31.559 --> 02:28:37.079 is once for context, in the medieval period that's like 1885 02:28:37.200 --> 02:28:41.280 do like the habs for Europe. That's where Croatian kings 1886 02:28:41.360 --> 02:28:47.680 were coronated. Okay, it became a militant home of Serb nationalism. Okay, 1887 02:28:47.799 --> 02:28:52.360 it's very impoverished. People's fortunes and outcomes are very limited 1888 02:28:52.399 --> 02:28:59.959 even today. It's also on the path literally to Dalmatian, 1889 02:29:01.079 --> 02:29:05.159 which is essential. That's a life splood of Croatia and 1890 02:29:05.319 --> 02:29:09.559 like the Balkans in general, Okay, for obvious reasons. You know, 1891 02:29:09.639 --> 02:29:13.239 that's that's the uh, that's the ngress and the negress 1892 02:29:13.280 --> 02:29:19.520 of the Adriatic. See these oral serbs really for the 1893 02:29:19.719 --> 02:29:22.719 I mean they these are the These are the guys 1894 02:29:22.719 --> 02:29:25.079 who are then elderly and the descendants of guys who 1895 02:29:25.920 --> 02:29:28.639 who had fought with you know, the the hail of 1896 02:29:28.680 --> 02:29:32.719 its Chetnicks, you know, like they didn't suddenly become cosmopolitans 1897 02:29:32.799 --> 02:29:37.239 who wanted to live in some Croatian republic. And Tujman, 1898 02:29:38.360 --> 02:29:40.319 now mind you, he's a guy who came up through 1899 02:29:40.360 --> 02:29:43.239 that Tito with stapparatus, So it's not like he was 1900 02:29:43.280 --> 02:29:45.319 like some arch Eusta share or something. And he wasn't 1901 02:29:45.360 --> 02:29:49.440 a fascist, despite what people claimed in Belgrade and what 1902 02:29:49.520 --> 02:29:51.799 a lot of left wingers claimed in Germany and elsewhere. 1903 02:29:52.840 --> 02:29:56.479 But he did draw upon a lot of ustas symbol 1904 02:29:57.200 --> 02:29:59.239 and he did say like, we're not gonna run from 1905 02:29:59.239 --> 02:30:01.600 our leg you know, for our heritage in the indefended 1906 02:30:01.639 --> 02:30:04.479 state of Croatia. You know, basically people who said they 1907 02:30:04.559 --> 02:30:06.520 wanted some sort of disallow of the state, He's like, 1908 02:30:06.600 --> 02:30:13.959 fuck you. And uh, you know, the two Jami regimes 1909 02:30:13.959 --> 02:30:17.239 started doing things, you know, like only conducting official business 1910 02:30:17.360 --> 02:30:20.239 in the Western alphabet. Okay, Serbs used to really and 1911 02:30:20.319 --> 02:30:22.879 this isn't a small thing, Okay, Like even if you 1912 02:30:22.920 --> 02:30:27.079 speak the same common language, you know, even even in dialect, 1913 02:30:27.120 --> 02:30:30.840 that's pretty similar. If suddenly, if suddenly you go outside 1914 02:30:30.920 --> 02:30:34.440 and like, you know, the garments not connucting business and 1915 02:30:34.479 --> 02:30:37.639 an alphabet you can read, they're gonna feel pretty fucking marginalized, 1916 02:30:38.479 --> 02:30:42.680 you know. And even beyond that, it like symbolically it 1917 02:30:43.959 --> 02:30:48.079 it it made the Serbs feel, I'm just profoundly disrespected. 1918 02:30:49.120 --> 02:30:51.479 But when you consider that an act of war was 1919 02:30:51.559 --> 02:30:57.319 on you know, the UH, the Slovenes as well as UH, 1920 02:30:58.399 --> 02:31:00.319 as well as both the Bosnian craws us in the 1921 02:31:00.360 --> 02:31:02.879 Bosnia acts. You know, the Bosnian Moslims who in the 1922 02:31:02.959 --> 02:31:05.200 next episode. Will we'll get into their story a bit 1923 02:31:05.680 --> 02:31:08.719 if if that's agreeable. You know, they were they were 1924 02:31:08.760 --> 02:31:11.239 looking around themselves saying like, there's there's there's there's an 1925 02:31:11.239 --> 02:31:15.360 ethnic war on. You know, this isn't hypothetical anymore. There's 1926 02:31:15.399 --> 02:31:18.040 a shooting war going on between ethnic secession, this and 1927 02:31:18.079 --> 02:31:20.239 the us LAV Army, which at least at the general 1928 02:31:20.360 --> 02:31:25.200 officer level is majoritarian serve. And Tujaman now was saying 1929 02:31:25.280 --> 02:31:29.680 that Croatia is a state exclusively the Croatian people, the 1930 02:31:29.760 --> 02:31:34.639 only democracy that's valid. And Tujiman did run a democracy. 1931 02:31:35.000 --> 02:31:39.639 There were contested elections, that's and arguable. However, as a 1932 02:31:39.760 --> 02:31:45.399 matter of constitutional mandate, you know, the new infendent Croatia 1933 02:31:45.520 --> 02:31:48.840 was exclusively Croatian, you know, and if you didn't identify 1934 02:31:48.920 --> 02:31:52.040 that way, you better start otherwise, you know, you're not 1935 02:31:52.239 --> 02:31:57.159 one of us. And they jump from that in the 1936 02:31:58.280 --> 02:32:01.079 wake of a Ross and Creed which has actually already 1937 02:32:01.159 --> 02:32:05.120 jumped off. I'lbeit in a different theater, but still, you know, 1938 02:32:05.399 --> 02:32:10.719 local to where you live, you're gonna realize that you 1939 02:32:10.760 --> 02:32:13.000 can be very able to find yourself ethnically cleansed. And 1940 02:32:13.239 --> 02:32:15.559 the guys putting the bandit at you could be guys 1941 02:32:15.600 --> 02:32:18.399 who you were totally at peace with, you know, a 1942 02:32:18.520 --> 02:32:20.280 year ago or a month ago or a day ago, 1943 02:32:20.559 --> 02:32:24.520 you know, and people think that's not possible, like even 1944 02:32:24.559 --> 02:32:27.280 in America. Obviously I'm not comparing the two situations, but 1945 02:32:28.600 --> 02:32:32.840 when the Floyd bullshit jumped off, that's right before I 1946 02:32:32.879 --> 02:32:35.680 got off probation, like right before I got back on 1947 02:32:35.680 --> 02:32:38.200 the internet, and I was like, I was living in 1948 02:32:38.280 --> 02:32:41.200 this like ghetto YMCA that was like eighty percent black, 1949 02:32:42.440 --> 02:32:45.879 and I was like, okay with those guys, but I realized, 1950 02:32:45.920 --> 02:32:48.000 like at the worst of it, I'm like, you know, 1951 02:32:48.399 --> 02:32:50.760 if things get like really bad, like these guys aren't 1952 02:32:50.760 --> 02:32:52.799 going to be my friend, you know, like, and it's 1953 02:32:53.479 --> 02:32:55.719 I think most people don't think that way in this country. 1954 02:32:55.920 --> 02:32:58.079 And I mean I'm a minority here. I mean, thankuly 1955 02:32:58.120 --> 02:33:00.360 not in my town, but I mean this palm like 1956 02:33:00.399 --> 02:33:03.680 a minority of one. But I mean, so this idea 1957 02:33:03.760 --> 02:33:05.959 that oh, those people just went crazy, like your neighbors 1958 02:33:05.959 --> 02:33:08.799 wouldn't fucking whack you. Yeah they would. Yeah. I mean 1959 02:33:08.840 --> 02:33:11.360 like even here, let alone in a place things that 1960 02:33:11.479 --> 02:33:14.520 bad enough, you know. I'm not saying people should be 1961 02:33:14.600 --> 02:33:18.159 paranoid or something or you know, order mac and cheese 1962 02:33:18.200 --> 02:33:21.000 buckets from Alex Jones and you know, pretend that the 1963 02:33:21.120 --> 02:33:24.040 fucking apocalypse is coming. But this idea that you know, 1964 02:33:24.159 --> 02:33:26.399 politics can't turn on you because oh we there was 1965 02:33:26.440 --> 02:33:28.520 some kind of concord with my neighbors and they like 1966 02:33:28.639 --> 02:33:31.520 me like that's all bits are often and and and 1967 02:33:31.879 --> 02:33:36.280 a rossen Krieger or whatever equivalent is. You know, So 1968 02:33:36.399 --> 02:33:45.159 that's that's basically that's basically what the perception was. And 1969 02:33:45.239 --> 02:33:47.559 you go Slavia like a lot of the satellite states. 1970 02:33:48.040 --> 02:33:50.440 You know. One of the reasons why East Berlin was 1971 02:33:50.639 --> 02:33:53.680 so important to the Warsaw Pact. It wasn't just because 1972 02:33:53.719 --> 02:33:56.280 that was, you know, the westernmost frontier of the communist world. 1973 02:33:57.000 --> 02:34:00.479 It was because of the Communists, especially because of their 1974 02:34:00.600 --> 02:34:05.680 pretensions about you know, the industrial proletariat and the degree 1975 02:34:05.719 --> 02:34:10.000 to which they relied kind of upon these intellectual university 1976 02:34:10.079 --> 02:34:14.680 types to kind of facilitate the program. You know, they 1977 02:34:14.920 --> 02:34:18.719 they really it's like the countryside like didn't exist to them, 1978 02:34:19.600 --> 02:34:21.760 you know, and even people like too Juman, even though 1979 02:34:22.319 --> 02:34:25.760 in Yugoslavia, I don't believe, I don't believe Titoism was 1980 02:34:25.799 --> 02:34:30.200 ever adoptionary kind of Marxist Leninism, but it definitely the 1981 02:34:30.280 --> 02:34:33.680 political culture definitely was similar in terms of blind spots 1982 02:34:33.719 --> 02:34:36.200 and these guys. It's like even in the small country, 1983 02:34:37.280 --> 02:34:40.360 you know, it's like it's like the countryside you know 1984 02:34:40.479 --> 02:34:44.200 where three you know, six indreo thousand Serbs live, you know, 1985 02:34:44.760 --> 02:34:48.520 who view life and the ethnic situation the same way 1986 02:34:48.559 --> 02:34:50.879 they did in nineteen forty one. It's like this didn't 1987 02:34:50.920 --> 02:34:53.319 exist because like, oh, here in Zagreb, you know, we 1988 02:34:53.600 --> 02:34:56.040 were all the same and our served neighbors, you know 1989 02:34:56.079 --> 02:34:57.920 them gon a funny customs to go to the wrong church, 1990 02:34:58.000 --> 02:35:00.600 but they can learn to be Croatian ha ha, Like 1991 02:35:00.680 --> 02:35:05.479 there really is something to that, and you know that 1992 02:35:05.719 --> 02:35:15.000 that really can't be overstated, you know, the uh so 1993 02:35:15.159 --> 02:35:24.159 it was basically in Canean the canon and basically what 1994 02:35:24.280 --> 02:35:30.239 became the secessionist crane uh Serb Republic. This is where 1995 02:35:30.360 --> 02:35:32.239 this is where the crowd say, actually could not afford 1996 02:35:32.399 --> 02:35:38.479 going to be some kind of iridescent Serbian movement or 1997 02:35:38.520 --> 02:35:42.799 some kind of mobilized Chitnik response to what Zagreb was doing. 1998 02:35:43.159 --> 02:35:45.200 That's the last place they can afford this to happen. 1999 02:35:45.360 --> 02:35:48.000 And it's absolutely where it did happen. And there's also 2000 02:35:48.040 --> 02:35:51.239 going to be the toughest Serbs live the creation that's 2001 02:35:51.239 --> 02:35:58.760 where they lived, you know. The uh So, in the 2002 02:35:58.840 --> 02:36:02.559 first month at two Jamond's election, and again I emphasized 2003 02:36:02.600 --> 02:36:05.799 that Tujman was elected, people are gonna say whatever they 2004 02:36:05.840 --> 02:36:09.040 you know, it's kind of like people have become less 2005 02:36:09.079 --> 02:36:14.680 friendly to Croatia, the Croatia of history in academic treat medisine. 2006 02:36:14.719 --> 02:36:17.360 Know now that we're like thirty years out and you know, 2007 02:36:17.399 --> 02:36:21.040 they're they're increasingly casting to Jaman is so I'm going 2008 02:36:21.079 --> 02:36:23.840 to dictator. I mean, the Croatian system of this day 2009 02:36:24.000 --> 02:36:27.680 is a strongly presidential system. But tou Jaman was elected 2010 02:36:27.760 --> 02:36:31.159 president and a normal election. You know, you can't you 2011 02:36:31.239 --> 02:36:34.159 can't just say you can't claim you know that like 2012 02:36:34.280 --> 02:36:36.399 Russia is not a democracy. I mean Croatia is a 2013 02:36:36.479 --> 02:36:39.760 democratic is any other country on Earth? Okay? And it 2014 02:36:39.920 --> 02:36:45.600 was in nineteen ninety one as it is today, you know. 2015 02:36:45.840 --> 02:36:49.920 And uh in the lead up to tu Jemon's election, 2016 02:36:51.000 --> 02:36:54.639 again it was its academic university friends, but not only 2017 02:36:54.719 --> 02:37:01.520 ran his campaign and sort of integrated his platform and 2018 02:37:01.879 --> 02:37:05.600 his optics into a modern media apparatus at a kind 2019 02:37:05.719 --> 02:37:10.280 that you know existed in the West. But these are 2020 02:37:10.280 --> 02:37:13.079 the guys who are advising him on policy also, you know, 2021 02:37:13.120 --> 02:37:15.600 and what he needed, I mean, frankly, he needed the 2022 02:37:15.680 --> 02:37:18.920 defectors from the usav National Army who knew the situation 2023 02:37:19.159 --> 02:37:21.799 and the military apparatus as it stood then, not twenty 2024 02:37:21.920 --> 02:37:26.959 years ago. You know, he needed he needed guys who 2025 02:37:27.040 --> 02:37:29.559 could tell him what the situation was on the ground, 2026 02:37:31.239 --> 02:37:35.920 you know, in the countryside where you know, when war came. 2027 02:37:36.000 --> 02:37:40.079 I mean, that's not only worth decided, but that's that's 2028 02:37:40.120 --> 02:37:42.360 what Croage would have to capture in order to remain 2029 02:37:42.440 --> 02:37:58.760 viable as a state. And uh the uh. There was 2030 02:37:58.799 --> 02:38:07.040 also two the local cadres that facilitated Tujeman's ascendancy. In 2031 02:38:07.159 --> 02:38:13.040 contrast to the people who constitute his cabinet. A lot 2032 02:38:13.120 --> 02:38:18.079 of these guys were probably what would be viewed under 2033 02:38:18.120 --> 02:38:21.840 normal conditions as extreme. You know. There were guys who 2034 02:38:21.959 --> 02:38:24.399 for years or for decades in some cases that they 2035 02:38:24.399 --> 02:38:28.040 were middle aged. There were guys who'd basically been like 2036 02:38:28.159 --> 02:38:33.159 carrying the torch of of crawd nationalism, you know, and 2037 02:38:33.239 --> 02:38:37.239 biding their time until the Titos regime could be torn down. 2038 02:38:38.040 --> 02:38:40.760 These guys had a basic antipathy to serbs like that 2039 02:38:41.000 --> 02:38:46.239 that can't be denied. You know, such a ground organization 2040 02:38:48.559 --> 02:38:53.920 are basically guys who hate serves anyway, It doesn't matter what, 2041 02:38:55.120 --> 02:38:58.120 It doesn't matter what your control group is saying. It 2042 02:38:58.159 --> 02:39:01.319 doesn't matter what Tujman, you know, playing mellow academic is 2043 02:39:02.000 --> 02:39:08.120 talking about a conciliatory posture between populations. You know, I mean, 2044 02:39:08.200 --> 02:39:14.520 it's not it's not it's not something, it's not something 2045 02:39:14.559 --> 02:39:23.600 that's that's gonna resolve in anything but a violent separation. Now. 2046 02:39:23.719 --> 02:39:27.920 I I mean again, like nobody's in augur and I think, 2047 02:39:28.319 --> 02:39:32.360 I think key political figures, even people who had a 2048 02:39:32.399 --> 02:39:36.840 better understanding, remember realistic understanding of the situation than perhaps 2049 02:39:36.879 --> 02:39:39.760 Chujiman himself did, they couldn't have foreseen the extent of 2050 02:39:39.799 --> 02:39:43.159 the differences, and like the degree of the division and 2051 02:39:43.799 --> 02:39:46.440 the kind of hostility just beneath the surface, like coming 2052 02:39:46.479 --> 02:39:53.040 from both sides. And when Tujman won the nineteen ninety election, 2053 02:39:54.040 --> 02:39:57.040 what he should have done, regardless of what he intended 2054 02:39:57.239 --> 02:40:00.520 in terms of you know, making the city apparatus, you know, 2055 02:40:00.879 --> 02:40:05.719 truly like a truly national, democratically exclusively crowd apparatus, Like 2056 02:40:05.799 --> 02:40:09.559 he absolutely should not have done anything provocative until it 2057 02:40:09.639 --> 02:40:12.360 was clear where the cards were gonna fall and in 2058 02:40:12.479 --> 02:40:15.639 terms of secession and what the response in Belgrade was 2059 02:40:15.680 --> 02:40:17.799 gonna be. But at the same time too, there's a 2060 02:40:17.840 --> 02:40:23.559 twenty twenty hindsight, and even even in a relatively unfree country, 2061 02:40:23.559 --> 02:40:26.280 which Creatia was not. Again, but even under conditions where 2062 02:40:27.159 --> 02:40:30.600 an executive doesn't have to abide some sort of direct 2063 02:40:31.120 --> 02:40:34.559 ballot mandate, I mean, every every chief executive is bound 2064 02:40:34.639 --> 02:40:39.559 by the tenor of the of a opinion in the 2065 02:40:39.639 --> 02:40:44.799 body politic, you know, So, I mean I Tujuman was 2066 02:40:44.840 --> 02:40:46.879 in part be kind of carried on a current of 2067 02:40:49.120 --> 02:40:57.840 of of zeitgeist that probably was irrepressible. And there's also 2068 02:40:57.959 --> 02:41:01.879 I mean, there's always there's always something of uh, I 2069 02:41:01.959 --> 02:41:03.959 mean you as you know, because of where you live 2070 02:41:04.040 --> 02:41:09.680 now when compared to the locale of your birth and upbringing, 2071 02:41:10.000 --> 02:41:11.920 there's always some kind of disdain that the city has 2072 02:41:11.959 --> 02:41:14.440 for the country. Like all these people they're they're just 2073 02:41:14.559 --> 02:41:17.559 simple fucking people. Like they they're passive, they're going to 2074 02:41:17.600 --> 02:41:19.680 tolerate whatever we kind of put on them. Like that's 2075 02:41:19.760 --> 02:41:25.360 never the case, you know, and particularly not when there's 2076 02:41:26.399 --> 02:41:32.120 a tradition of partisanship that breaks down rigidly on ethnic lines. 2077 02:41:32.159 --> 02:41:38.680 I mean, like there wasn't Croatia. But you know, again, 2078 02:41:38.920 --> 02:41:40.959 a lot of this I think is out of a 2079 02:41:41.000 --> 02:41:43.280 Hegelian A lot of this is out of man's hands, 2080 02:41:46.520 --> 02:41:54.200 you know. And it's also the uh, the one thing 2081 02:41:54.239 --> 02:41:56.959 people did say at the time. And you know, Tito 2082 02:41:57.680 --> 02:42:02.920 himself was a Croat and he successfully suppressed Serb fraud 2083 02:42:03.040 --> 02:42:06.120 enemity during the totality of his rule. But I mean, 2084 02:42:07.520 --> 02:42:09.520 I think that's misguided too, man. I mean, one of 2085 02:42:09.520 --> 02:42:13.200 the things Tito he drives his mandate not from the 2086 02:42:13.280 --> 02:42:15.920 fact that cross and Serbs suddenly decided they love one another. 2087 02:42:16.000 --> 02:42:18.959 It's because the genius and Tito is he found a 2088 02:42:19.040 --> 02:42:21.559 way to keep both uncle saying man the Soviets out, 2089 02:42:22.239 --> 02:42:27.719 you know. And I mean that even the most even 2090 02:42:27.760 --> 02:42:36.799 the most kind of sectarian minded, ethnically chauvinistic minded Prome 2091 02:42:36.959 --> 02:42:43.120 Serb or Bosniak would realize that, you know. And within 2092 02:42:43.200 --> 02:42:45.719 this paradigm, you know, we stand together, or we at 2093 02:42:45.799 --> 02:42:49.440 least tolerate the situation as it is, or or or 2094 02:42:49.600 --> 02:42:51.799 or we all die, you know. I know, I don't 2095 02:42:51.840 --> 02:42:56.319 think that's entirely fair, you know. And there was other 2096 02:42:56.399 --> 02:43:02.000 things too, I mean, the this was documented. It wasn't 2097 02:43:02.040 --> 02:43:04.520 just probably probably in it from Belgrade, like upon the 2098 02:43:04.559 --> 02:43:07.600 ascendancy of upon two mins of elections, there was like 2099 02:43:07.639 --> 02:43:11.079 a massed emotion and termination to serves from from high 2100 02:43:11.120 --> 02:43:22.040 and intermediate government positions, you know, literary Craat, literary Croatian. 2101 02:43:22.680 --> 02:43:26.319 It had to be spoken in administrative positions of officialdom. 2102 02:43:26.600 --> 02:43:28.600 It wasn't just the Western alphabet had to be used 2103 02:43:28.639 --> 02:43:32.079 by everybody, but you were basically prohibited from speaking with 2104 02:43:32.159 --> 02:43:35.319 a Serbian accent. I mean that that's stuff and stuff 2105 02:43:35.360 --> 02:43:36.959 like that as a flex you know, I mean, it 2106 02:43:37.040 --> 02:43:48.959 doesn't there there's no other way to characterize it. And 2107 02:43:49.079 --> 02:43:59.000 the the failed conflict resolution model again, I mean, frankly, 2108 02:43:59.159 --> 02:44:05.680 uh however misguided in terms of the assumptions people held 2109 02:44:07.520 --> 02:44:10.079 in nineteen ninety one about the potentiality of a truly 2110 02:44:10.920 --> 02:44:14.559 global collective security. At least, thank god it was that 2111 02:44:14.799 --> 02:44:20.760 coterie at Department of State and not this current crop 2112 02:44:20.879 --> 02:44:25.120 of INSANE'SUS and out and out you know, mental subnormals. 2113 02:44:25.760 --> 02:44:28.000 I mean, when I can't even imagine that would play out. 2114 02:44:28.239 --> 02:44:33.559 But the the big believe it or not, the big 2115 02:44:33.719 --> 02:44:37.239 question was on the U and the U and General 2116 02:44:37.239 --> 02:44:41.479 Assembly and Security Council, like is this an international conflict 2117 02:44:43.120 --> 02:44:48.120 or is this a civil war? And that significance was key, okay, 2118 02:44:48.520 --> 02:44:54.440 because the United Nations, misguided as it may have been, 2119 02:44:55.840 --> 02:44:59.000 you know, philosophically to suggest that such a thing could 2120 02:44:59.040 --> 02:45:03.719 be viable. The Charter was written with an eye for restraint, 2121 02:45:03.879 --> 02:45:08.520 in part because you know, obviously Stalin's representatives had to 2122 02:45:08.559 --> 02:45:12.000 be placated and ironically, you know, as Yaki pointed out 2123 02:45:12.040 --> 02:45:14.040 again and again, I mean that actually had the effect 2124 02:45:14.120 --> 02:45:20.159 of imposing restraint upon Washington dominating the world and facilitating 2125 02:45:20.159 --> 02:45:22.680 as social engineering regime or the officer is a collective security. 2126 02:45:23.559 --> 02:45:30.719 But the UN General Assembly had no they had they 2127 02:45:30.719 --> 02:45:32.920 had no grounds to vote a resolution on a civil 2128 02:45:32.959 --> 02:45:37.440 war as regards you know, sanctioning that the party combatants 2129 02:45:38.040 --> 02:45:40.680 or directly or the UN Security counts let no grounds 2130 02:45:40.680 --> 02:45:43.920 to intervene, you know, unless there was an international dimension 2131 02:45:43.959 --> 02:45:48.760 to the conflict. You know, it would be suggested by people. 2132 02:45:49.040 --> 02:45:50.520 One of the reasons why in the era of everybody 2133 02:45:50.559 --> 02:45:53.440 loved to bandy genocide and accused people who didn't like 2134 02:45:53.520 --> 02:45:58.520 of committing it. This is arguably the Genocide Convention superseded 2135 02:45:59.719 --> 02:46:05.520 the WIN Charter as a Djiurie grounds for intervention if 2136 02:46:05.520 --> 02:46:11.520 one accepts international law paradigms as legitimate. But obviously, UH 2137 02:46:11.719 --> 02:46:16.360 in nineteen ninety one it wasn't credible to talk that way. 2138 02:46:16.479 --> 02:46:19.680 I mean, it wasn't particularly in subsequent years. But you 2139 02:46:19.760 --> 02:46:23.200 can't levy. You can't levy in an accusation of genocide 2140 02:46:23.399 --> 02:46:25.840 within like once the anside of hostilities, like it's that 2141 02:46:26.120 --> 02:46:32.680 obviously be a propaganda ployd but you know Belgrade, which 2142 02:46:32.719 --> 02:46:36.840 to Belgrade at the time it was and really until 2143 02:46:38.440 --> 02:46:46.360 the conclusion of hostilities, the UH, the Serbians identified as 2144 02:46:47.000 --> 02:46:49.520 the Union of you you know, the Yuoslavian Union of 2145 02:46:49.559 --> 02:46:55.079 Serbia and Montenegro. You know, they never claimed like, oh, 2146 02:46:55.159 --> 02:46:57.520 we are Serbia where you know, we're creating, you know, 2147 02:46:57.600 --> 02:47:01.879 like an ethno national state of Serbians, mirroring Tujman. They 2148 02:47:01.959 --> 02:47:05.120 claimed Yugoslavia is you know where the Yugoslavian government and 2149 02:47:05.200 --> 02:47:08.280 secession is against the law. These people are engaged in. 2150 02:47:09.600 --> 02:47:12.920 They're they're waging war on on the sovereign government of Yugoslavia, 2151 02:47:13.639 --> 02:47:17.959 you know, which is UH, which is UH, which is 2152 02:47:18.000 --> 02:47:21.239 both illegal and as well as an internal affair. You know, 2153 02:47:24.000 --> 02:47:31.040 now it's key the UH until the end The official 2154 02:47:31.079 --> 02:47:33.559 position at Belgrade was that this is a civil war, 2155 02:47:34.520 --> 02:47:38.760 you know, and Yugoslavia never ceased to exist, you know, 2156 02:47:39.000 --> 02:47:42.639 and the people are claiming that it's a dead letter 2157 02:47:42.680 --> 02:47:46.840 in the Yugoslavia's could put our our fascists, who have, 2158 02:47:47.159 --> 02:47:50.799 you know, a racialized view of of of high politics 2159 02:47:52.159 --> 02:47:56.799 like over dishonest. That may have been depending your perspective, 2160 02:47:57.000 --> 02:48:00.959 I mean it, it was it, you know. Bea never succeeded, 2161 02:48:00.959 --> 02:48:03.520 and Servia never claimed that the US Slabbian constitution was 2162 02:48:03.559 --> 02:48:07.440 no avoid and that we're reconstituting as a Serb republic. 2163 02:48:07.600 --> 02:48:11.319 Criina did constitute itself as the Republic of the Republic 2164 02:48:11.399 --> 02:48:14.559 of Serbia. But you know, this is this is important. 2165 02:48:14.600 --> 02:48:17.719 It's not just legal eese. It had real war and 2166 02:48:17.799 --> 02:48:26.000 peace impactfulness. But it's also the i mean, the key 2167 02:48:26.159 --> 02:48:29.280 the key shortcoming of the United Nations and executive terms. 2168 02:48:29.319 --> 02:48:35.000 I'm a sorry from the fact, however much philosophically these 2169 02:48:35.079 --> 02:48:40.239 things aren't viable. I mean, what what what what? What? 2170 02:48:40.360 --> 02:48:41.920 What are you and Blue is gonna do? Are they 2171 02:48:41.959 --> 02:48:45.479 gonna Are they gonna occupy I think occupy Bosnian assault 2172 02:48:45.479 --> 02:48:48.000 the Yugoslav army with combined arms, I mean no one's 2173 02:48:48.000 --> 02:48:54.040 ever been able to explicate how this works. And even 2174 02:48:54.079 --> 02:48:57.760 in situations like in Lebanon after eighty two, or the 2175 02:48:57.840 --> 02:49:01.719 United Nations deployees you know what, the United Nations deployees 2176 02:49:02.639 --> 02:49:05.639 permissively because all party combat and just allow it to deploy, 2177 02:49:06.000 --> 02:49:08.159 you know, I mean, it's not you know, you can't 2178 02:49:08.159 --> 02:49:14.000 speak of international law when it's when categorically it can't 2179 02:49:14.040 --> 02:49:17.639 be compulsory. So it's sort of paralysis set it in. 2180 02:49:17.760 --> 02:49:22.079 But it's also there was a broader problem that we 2181 02:49:22.200 --> 02:49:26.479 touched on in the first episode. If the UN to 2182 02:49:26.520 --> 02:49:29.879 come out and said this is an international conflict just 2183 02:49:30.000 --> 02:49:34.680 in absolute terms, it's not a civil war, you know, 2184 02:49:34.799 --> 02:49:38.520 that would have at this time there was still a 2185 02:49:38.600 --> 02:49:44.760 truly conciliatory posture towards the Soviet Union, which was about 2186 02:49:44.799 --> 02:49:50.680 to dissolve, albeit but saying suddenly, this is Croatia ors 2187 02:49:50.680 --> 02:49:52.879 a Serbia with Bosnia caught in the middle, when the 2188 02:49:52.920 --> 02:49:56.559 Bosniaks kind of just trying to survive, It's like, well, 2189 02:49:59.120 --> 02:50:02.360 Cole already a me recognized the independent state of Croatia. 2190 02:50:03.159 --> 02:50:06.920 You know, you'd essentially be sowing the seeds of a 2191 02:50:08.479 --> 02:50:12.200 wider ethnic conflict between Germany and Russia, like each backing 2192 02:50:12.239 --> 02:50:19.680 their client regime and a sort of a zero sum 2193 02:50:20.159 --> 02:50:23.840 paradigm developing. I think that was underway anyway. But again, 2194 02:50:24.280 --> 02:50:26.399 you've got to put yourself in the year nineteen ninety one. 2195 02:50:27.239 --> 02:50:31.040 You know, this wasn't this wasn't accepted thinking. The idea 2196 02:50:31.360 --> 02:50:33.760 was that this is sort of a blip on the 2197 02:50:33.879 --> 02:50:40.200 path to you know, global clicktive security arrangement. People are 2198 02:50:40.239 --> 02:50:44.760 still seriously talking about the Bush Baker model of we're gonna, 2199 02:50:44.959 --> 02:50:47.440 we're gonna totally the Soviet Union is gonna totally disarm 2200 02:50:48.280 --> 02:50:51.959 its strategic nuclear forces and draw down it's conventional force 2201 02:50:52.079 --> 02:50:54.399 divine or levels, and like we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna, 2202 02:50:54.639 --> 02:50:57.159 we're gonna with draw from Germany, and like NATO basically 2203 02:50:57.200 --> 02:50:59.959 isn't gonna exist anymore. Like this was the way people think, 2204 02:51:00.600 --> 02:51:06.760 not just talking. So that's important to consider, you know. 2205 02:51:06.840 --> 02:51:14.159 And again the uh IF, I think some of the 2206 02:51:14.360 --> 02:51:18.399 uh I think some of what was alleged in terms 2207 02:51:18.440 --> 02:51:26.600 of ethnic cleansing and and mass rape, like organized like 2208 02:51:26.799 --> 02:51:30.719 sexual violence, some of that was overstated. Some of it 2209 02:51:30.920 --> 02:51:36.559 was not okay. And we're loving to use the term 2210 02:51:36.600 --> 02:51:39.120 war crimes because said dandy so much to the floating 2211 02:51:39.120 --> 02:51:44.040 signifier has become meaningless. But there is direct testimony that 2212 02:51:44.360 --> 02:51:49.440 I I from, you know, n c o s and 2213 02:51:49.799 --> 02:51:55.959 junior officers who were witnessed to these events and they 2214 02:51:55.959 --> 02:51:57.959 have no reason to lie about it and every reason 2215 02:51:58.040 --> 02:52:01.639 to deny it. And I find that test somebody persuaded them. 2216 02:52:01.680 --> 02:52:03.959 And these weren't guys to themselves who were under indictment, 2217 02:52:04.200 --> 02:52:06.959 you know. And I think anybody doesn't believe those kind 2218 02:52:07.000 --> 02:52:09.200 of things happen in a ross and creeze being naive, 2219 02:52:10.159 --> 02:52:11.959 and I think everybody agrees that that kind of stuff 2220 02:52:12.040 --> 02:52:15.360 is horrible. But again it's like what do you It's 2221 02:52:15.399 --> 02:52:18.120 never been clear with the people who claim that you 2222 02:52:18.280 --> 02:52:20.879 should have the quote done something, So like what do 2223 02:52:20.959 --> 02:52:23.280 you do? You know, you deploy the combined arms and 2224 02:52:23.319 --> 02:52:26.600 assault the USLAV armies, like now you're at war with Serbia, 2225 02:52:26.760 --> 02:52:30.959 Like I don't know, give us idea that somehow you 2226 02:52:31.000 --> 02:52:35.200 can enter a combay zone, like an active conflict zone, 2227 02:52:36.440 --> 02:52:38.920 you know, with combined arms and like be like the 2228 02:52:39.000 --> 02:52:41.719 police or something and people stop what they're doing. You know, 2229 02:52:41.840 --> 02:52:43.840 like you you just become a party combatant when you 2230 02:52:43.959 --> 02:52:47.040 do that, you know you're you're you're you're joining a 2231 02:52:47.120 --> 02:52:51.840 gunfight that you didn't have to, you know, and that's 2232 02:52:51.879 --> 02:52:56.760 basically it. You know, it doesn't there's not that, there's 2233 02:52:56.799 --> 02:53:02.799 not there's not there's not some equitable resolution because oh, 2234 02:53:02.920 --> 02:53:09.239 they represent the United Nations. You know, it's preposterous. Now, 2235 02:53:16.319 --> 02:53:26.520 there was a claim Bosnia Herzegovina, which I think everybody 2236 02:53:26.559 --> 02:53:31.840 will agree was on the receiving end of the worst 2237 02:53:32.200 --> 02:53:44.159 excesses by all by all party combatants. Under Article twenty 2238 02:53:44.280 --> 02:53:51.479 five of the UN Charter, member states can vote to 2239 02:53:51.639 --> 02:53:57.479 intervene in a conflict zone where to not intervene would 2240 02:53:57.479 --> 02:54:00.239 be inconsistent with you know, like the fundamental protection human 2241 02:54:00.319 --> 02:54:03.079 rights and things of this sort. The language is ambiguous, 2242 02:54:04.440 --> 02:54:08.319 But the fact of the situation in Bosnia, where arguably 2243 02:54:08.520 --> 02:54:15.520 there was no majoritarian ethnos and even if you disagreed 2244 02:54:15.760 --> 02:54:22.559 with the idea that you know, the Yugoslavian, the Balkan, 2245 02:54:22.600 --> 02:54:26.120 the Third Broken War was an international conflict. Obviously whatever 2246 02:54:26.200 --> 02:54:29.000 government had could be said to exist in Vazio Scovina 2247 02:54:29.000 --> 02:54:35.879 had totally broken down. That would have been the best 2248 02:54:36.040 --> 02:54:40.959 case if you were gonna rely upon United Nations legal 2249 02:54:41.079 --> 02:54:44.840 rationales to intervene. But again like what what would that 2250 02:54:45.040 --> 02:54:47.399 force have been made up of? You you're gonna send 2251 02:54:47.520 --> 02:54:49.000 like the Buddhist far in there is you got like 2252 02:54:49.040 --> 02:54:51.079 a German army now marching in under the Office of 2253 02:54:51.079 --> 02:54:52.840 the UN saying oh, well we're here, you know, to 2254 02:54:52.920 --> 02:54:55.440 represent all nations. You're gonna you know, the Russians a 2255 02:54:55.479 --> 02:55:00.479 piece of that. You know, again, like the degree to 2256 02:55:00.559 --> 02:55:05.520 which real politique emergent earnest but of a start that 2257 02:55:05.639 --> 02:55:08.799 was somewhat more complicated than during the Cold War, just 2258 02:55:08.879 --> 02:55:11.879 in terms of that kind of conflict diets potentially that 2259 02:55:11.920 --> 02:55:14.479 we're emerging like that can't be overstated too. I mean, 2260 02:55:14.559 --> 02:55:16.840 so then it's some of you're left with, Like even 2261 02:55:16.879 --> 02:55:20.239 if the political will is there, even if there's some 2262 02:55:20.360 --> 02:55:27.799 sort of operational roadmap two resolve or you know, to 2263 02:55:27.920 --> 02:55:30.399 enforce the cease fire, like who do you deploy? You're 2264 02:55:30.399 --> 02:55:31.879 gonna get a bunch of You're gonna get a bunch 2265 02:55:31.920 --> 02:55:34.799 of like third world like like dealisters from like Ecuador 2266 02:55:36.079 --> 02:55:40.399 or to you know, to police Bosnia. I mean that's 2267 02:55:42.239 --> 02:55:47.520 on some level. You know, there was kind of a 2268 02:55:47.639 --> 02:55:54.399 hard lesson driven home about what a foolish move it 2269 02:55:54.680 --> 02:55:56.799 was to destroy Europe and kind of like rob the 2270 02:55:57.200 --> 02:56:01.200 it's constituent states a sovereignty because something like this happens, 2271 02:56:01.920 --> 02:56:04.639 like you need hasperg Empire interview. You know, you needed 2272 02:56:04.719 --> 02:56:07.239 Germany intervene, or you needed Germany and a Russia to 2273 02:56:07.319 --> 02:56:12.079 intervene and kind of decide among themselves. What's fear of influences? 2274 02:56:13.440 --> 02:56:15.520 You know, people can say all they want, like, well, 2275 02:56:15.600 --> 02:56:17.559 that doesn't matter if we're talking about the rule of law. 2276 02:56:17.639 --> 02:56:21.000 It absolutely doesn't matter, you know, because like the human 2277 02:56:21.079 --> 02:56:24.479 dimension always matters, and we're talking about human affairs. So 2278 02:56:26.360 --> 02:56:29.479 it was this kind of paralysis that just dragged on. 2279 02:56:30.239 --> 02:56:32.959 And Lawrence Egelberger, I'm actually more sympathetic too than a 2280 02:56:33.000 --> 02:56:35.639 lot of people. And I'm more simple to him as 2281 02:56:35.639 --> 02:56:38.280 a man. I mean he's dead now, but and as well, 2282 02:56:38.319 --> 02:56:39.879 I'm more sympathetic to him than a lot of the 2283 02:56:40.159 --> 02:56:43.520 hoy PELOI say nasty things about him, not unlike the Kissinger. 2284 02:56:43.639 --> 02:56:50.239 But he was under Secretary of State for a time 2285 02:56:51.399 --> 02:56:56.559 in the Bush forty one administration. He said immediately the 2286 02:56:56.600 --> 02:56:59.959 honesset of hostilities. Look, you've got to let this conflicts. 2287 02:57:00.079 --> 02:57:03.840 I will punch itself out, because if you intervene, you're 2288 02:57:03.840 --> 02:57:06.319 just gonna upset the balance. They're gonna drag out hostilities, 2289 02:57:07.120 --> 02:57:09.639 you know, and there isn't a solution basically, you know, 2290 02:57:09.799 --> 02:57:13.520 the the new Croatia and the New Serbia and whatever 2291 02:57:13.559 --> 02:57:15.319 the fate of Bosnia is, it's going to be decided 2292 02:57:16.600 --> 02:57:21.799 on the battlefield. And obviously he was you know, raked 2293 02:57:21.840 --> 02:57:23.479 from the cold and media like, oh, how dare you 2294 02:57:23.600 --> 02:57:27.200 say this, You're encouraging mass reef and genocide. I mean no, Actually, 2295 02:57:28.200 --> 02:57:31.639 exactly what Egoberger said like ended up happening in uh 2296 02:57:33.559 --> 02:57:42.399 N five. America intervened uh the Facilitati operations storm was 2297 02:57:42.440 --> 02:57:48.639 is the Croatian liberation of the Crimea, which you know 2298 02:57:50.879 --> 02:57:55.399 was the belated victory in the Homeland War for Croatia. 2299 02:57:58.719 --> 02:58:01.200 But that was a that was only the that was 2300 02:58:01.280 --> 02:58:07.000 only the that was America facilitated that by use of 2301 02:58:07.079 --> 02:58:11.520 a PMC outfit called m PRI, which was incorporated essentially 2302 02:58:11.600 --> 02:58:14.639 for that purpose, you know, for the for an operation 2303 02:58:14.760 --> 02:58:18.440 in Croatia, which is very interesting and in the final 2304 02:58:18.479 --> 02:58:25.040 episode we'll get into that. But basically, you know, for 2305 02:58:25.120 --> 02:58:29.760 all the talk about Wilberger was saying was was horrifically callous. 2306 02:58:29.840 --> 02:58:33.760 I mean that what it came down to was what 2307 02:58:33.920 --> 02:58:39.600 what resolved the conflict? The comics was deafly what he said, 2308 02:58:40.479 --> 02:58:45.479 you know, the party combats exhausted their ability to wage 2309 02:58:45.520 --> 02:58:52.360 war and UH battlefield battlefield victory and crina albeit with 2310 02:58:54.040 --> 02:58:57.559 you know, American assistance is what resolved for all time, 2311 02:58:58.159 --> 02:59:08.399 the the disputed or the contested UH objective that was crime. 2312 02:59:11.399 --> 02:59:15.959 I hope, hope people will back off of that I'm 2313 02:59:15.959 --> 02:59:18.159 saying that I hate Serbs, what I'm saying bad things 2314 02:59:18.200 --> 02:59:23.360 about them, or that I I've got some conceptual bias 2315 02:59:23.440 --> 02:59:26.760 and favor of Croatia. We should talk a little bit 2316 02:59:26.760 --> 02:59:27.680 about Slogani on the walls. 2317 02:59:30.479 --> 02:59:33.760 Yeah, it's been a lot of people's lifetimes. 2318 02:59:35.680 --> 02:59:39.159 Yeah, and I understand why if I was a Serbian 2319 02:59:40.600 --> 02:59:42.920 and I was in America or the UK, like I 2320 02:59:43.079 --> 02:59:47.559 feel very much like a population designated for hostility. You know, 2321 02:59:48.000 --> 02:59:54.159 I understand that completely, Okay, but I don't think people 2322 02:59:56.239 --> 02:59:57.559 One of the one of the reasons I focus so 2323 02:59:57.639 --> 03:00:02.840 much on the Third Right is because is the international 2324 03:00:02.959 --> 03:00:06.280 system and the entire sort of conceptual horizon that's been 2325 03:00:07.120 --> 03:00:12.360 crafted around World War Two. You've got to deal with 2326 03:00:12.399 --> 03:00:14.959 the Third Reich as sort of like the primary like 2327 03:00:15.159 --> 03:00:21.440 agent like in that narrative. Okay, So I'm not just 2328 03:00:21.520 --> 03:00:25.559 like fixated on these things at a smaller scale if 2329 03:00:25.600 --> 03:00:29.600 you're talking about if you're talking about the Yugoslavian wars 2330 03:00:30.600 --> 03:00:34.600 or what or what you know, the the Third Balkan 2331 03:00:34.719 --> 03:00:37.680 War at least the ninety one ninety five phase that 2332 03:00:37.879 --> 03:00:41.639 led to the creation of an independent Croatia. Like you've 2333 03:00:41.680 --> 03:00:44.319 got to deal with the Croatian political culture and what 2334 03:00:44.920 --> 03:00:49.159 and basically you know what the West view of Croatia 2335 03:00:49.360 --> 03:00:52.079 was and what tu Jaman was doing, That's what was 2336 03:00:52.159 --> 03:00:56.040 the dispositive variable. Okay, So like I begin with discussing 2337 03:00:56.079 --> 03:01:01.440 their Croatian situation. Also because CROs or are like German 2338 03:01:01.520 --> 03:01:04.840 adjacent and thus like Western adjacent, I frankly know more 2339 03:01:04.879 --> 03:01:10.559 about them than I do Serbians. But in my defense, again, 2340 03:01:12.120 --> 03:01:16.559 what was happening in Zagreb, and uh, it wasn't the 2341 03:01:16.680 --> 03:01:19.559 sole approximate cause of the conflict, but it was it 2342 03:01:19.639 --> 03:01:25.719 was the essential cause. Okay. The what Croatia did decided 2343 03:01:25.799 --> 03:01:29.840 the course of the war and the ultimately became the 2344 03:01:30.079 --> 03:01:34.200 political resolution. Like where like when the shooting stopped, you know, 2345 03:01:34.319 --> 03:01:38.000 the frontiers were established and accepted. It wasn't what Slovenian 2346 03:01:38.079 --> 03:01:40.760 or Macedonia was doing. It wasn't what the Bosniaks were doing. 2347 03:01:41.399 --> 03:01:45.479 Like those things had an impact. But again, like that's why, so, 2348 03:01:46.639 --> 03:01:49.719 I mean, I would have dealt with a Serbian perspective anyway, 2349 03:01:49.920 --> 03:01:55.520 but I thought it was especially imperative to do so 2350 03:01:55.719 --> 03:02:04.079 for for that reason. But Melosovich himself, I mean again, 2351 03:02:04.159 --> 03:02:10.559 he was He was a career communistep arratchik. He rose 2352 03:02:10.639 --> 03:02:17.079 to a general secretary positionary equivalent around nineteen eighty seven, 2353 03:02:17.239 --> 03:02:21.159 and actually the late Reagan administration looked at him as 2354 03:02:21.200 --> 03:02:23.040 their guy, like he was going to be like this 2355 03:02:23.120 --> 03:02:25.920 big liberalizer like he was. Basically he was supposed to 2356 03:02:25.959 --> 03:02:30.360 be like the Yugoslavian garbage show off. Okay, that's one 2357 03:02:30.360 --> 03:02:33.239 of the ways he got swept into power, was able 2358 03:02:33.280 --> 03:02:36.040 to consolidate his authority the way that he did, you know, 2359 03:02:36.200 --> 03:02:40.280 Like so this this kind of this exupposed facto rationalization, 2360 03:02:42.000 --> 03:02:46.479 you know that really began in Earnest in ninety one 2361 03:02:46.520 --> 03:02:50.440 and kind of just when it became totally irrational impunitive 2362 03:02:50.479 --> 03:02:53.799 during the Clinton regime. That Melosovich is like this madman 2363 03:02:53.920 --> 03:02:57.120 like chetnik, like there's completely at odds with reality and history, 2364 03:02:58.120 --> 03:03:00.600 Like the face he he he was this big like 2365 03:03:00.719 --> 03:03:03.399 liberal moderate. That's how he enjoyed the kind of patronage 2366 03:03:03.440 --> 03:03:10.799 that he did it. Uh And honestly, you know, Melissa 2367 03:03:10.840 --> 03:03:14.879 Benches fall from grace and power within his own country. 2368 03:03:16.520 --> 03:03:24.520 Kastunisha was elected president on October fifth, two thousand and 2369 03:03:25.360 --> 03:03:29.079 part of the big the big reason why Kristunika or Kostunisha, 2370 03:03:29.760 --> 03:03:33.360 if you're give me, if I'm booksuring the pronunciation, one 2371 03:03:33.360 --> 03:03:36.399 of the big reasons why he was able to break 2372 03:03:36.479 --> 03:03:39.399 through is because he was a Serb nationalist and Melosovich. 2373 03:03:39.680 --> 03:03:42.840 The big criticism Melosavich within Serbia was he turned his 2374 03:03:42.920 --> 03:03:45.280 back on the on the Serbian refugees. He didn't care 2375 03:03:45.280 --> 03:03:48.200 about our people. You know, he didn't fight hard enough, 2376 03:03:48.440 --> 03:03:50.399 you know, for the for the for the coast of 2377 03:03:50.479 --> 03:03:53.680 our Serbs. You know, like he he wasn't this big chetnik, 2378 03:03:54.079 --> 03:03:59.079 you know, like he was basically pragmatic. And this claim 2379 03:03:59.200 --> 03:04:01.719 that you know, most of the most of the grossest 2380 03:04:01.760 --> 03:04:06.239 excesses wherever one falls in their sympathy or background or whatever, 2381 03:04:06.680 --> 03:04:09.159 I don't think I would disagree that the worst excess 2382 03:04:09.280 --> 03:04:13.280 is carried out by all party. Combats took place in Bosnia, Okay, 2383 03:04:13.920 --> 03:04:17.799 and the idea that from Belgrade Melosevitch was somehow directing 2384 03:04:18.000 --> 03:04:20.840 like the Bosnian Serbs to do his bidding. Like this 2385 03:04:21.040 --> 03:04:23.639 is not I mean, that's not the way command authority 2386 03:04:23.760 --> 03:04:29.120 works in a modern state. But it's also like the 2387 03:04:29.159 --> 03:04:32.319 Bosnian Stirs might as well have been in a different country. Okay, 2388 03:04:32.479 --> 03:04:35.440 Like I'm not saying that, you know, the the affinity 2389 03:04:35.959 --> 03:04:38.520 that their co ethnics had for them was misplaced. I'm 2390 03:04:38.520 --> 03:04:40.479 not saying that at all, Like it was not misplaced, 2391 03:04:40.959 --> 03:04:42.760 But the point is it was almost it was a 2392 03:04:42.840 --> 03:04:48.639 totally it was a totally different socio political situation, you know, 2393 03:04:48.799 --> 03:04:54.200 like it'd be it's it'd be like saying like Jefferson 2394 03:04:54.319 --> 03:04:58.079 Davis was like it was ordering buddy Billy Anderson to 2395 03:04:59.000 --> 03:05:01.760 do things. You It's like that sounds asidine, but the 2396 03:05:01.840 --> 03:05:05.000 klan that I just raised is acidine. And people accepted 2397 03:05:05.079 --> 03:05:07.719 this is oh most of it is this a bad guy. 2398 03:05:08.239 --> 03:05:10.479 And like again I think I think sometimes that's like, 2399 03:05:10.680 --> 03:05:15.920 you know, the propaganda being distilled down into the most 2400 03:05:16.000 --> 03:05:21.440 kind of idiots caricature of reality. But it's also you 2401 03:05:21.520 --> 03:05:26.639 know the problem with assigning legalists legalisms and parent legalism. 2402 03:05:26.840 --> 03:05:31.719 Parent legalist paradigms and legalisms. The high politics, as was 2403 03:05:31.760 --> 03:05:37.319 done at Nuremberg, is it creates these perverse narratives where they're, oh, 2404 03:05:37.360 --> 03:05:41.239 there's there's there's command authorities who are bad actors, you know, 2405 03:05:41.559 --> 03:05:45.639 and they're the approximate cause of conflict, and everybody within 2406 03:05:45.719 --> 03:05:48.239 that chain of command is accountable to this bad actor. 2407 03:05:48.360 --> 03:05:54.680 Like this is not reality. You know. The uh I 2408 03:05:54.760 --> 03:05:58.479 guarantee you that some of the most hardened chet knicks 2409 03:05:59.000 --> 03:06:03.719 in uh Crina and in Bosnia and probably never even 2410 03:06:03.840 --> 03:06:06.200 heard most of it speak in their lives, like even 2411 03:06:06.239 --> 03:06:08.920 on the radio, you know, like he had nothing to 2412 03:06:09.000 --> 03:06:11.559 do with their conceptual horizon other than he was like 2413 03:06:11.639 --> 03:06:15.319 this remote like boss who in del Reid who Yeah, 2414 03:06:15.360 --> 03:06:17.440 we like that he's Serbian. But other than that, you know, 2415 03:06:17.639 --> 03:06:25.079 it's it's ridiculous, you know. And it's also too. I mean, basically, 2416 03:06:26.319 --> 03:06:29.479 if you look at the modern Serbian state under Melosovich 2417 03:06:30.280 --> 03:06:32.399 and now, and you look at the modern Croatian state, 2418 03:06:33.680 --> 03:06:38.479 I know too, Jaman and now, like basically everything else 2419 03:06:38.520 --> 03:06:40.520 suggested to be this kind of like a horrible and 2420 03:06:40.639 --> 03:06:46.799 democratic feature of Serbia or what they called Yugoslavia after 2421 03:06:46.879 --> 03:06:55.399 the secession of Croatia and UH Slovenia. I mean those 2422 03:06:55.440 --> 03:07:00.239 are basically features common to Croatia. You know, there's there's 2423 03:07:00.239 --> 03:07:03.559 what we would consider it basically chauvinus, UH, you know 2424 03:07:03.840 --> 03:07:09.639 nationalism that you know, characterized the party politics. There's a 2425 03:07:09.680 --> 03:07:15.479 basic discrount, distrust of pluralism and UH casting UH candidates 2426 03:07:15.520 --> 03:07:18.440 who talked about like, you know, a multi ethnic uh 2427 03:07:19.079 --> 03:07:24.319 Croatia where we're reviewed as traders, you know, UH, bad 2428 03:07:24.399 --> 03:07:28.079 relations with the West, you know, and and and admittedly 2429 03:07:28.120 --> 03:07:29.479 they had more we're to do with what the West 2430 03:07:29.639 --> 03:07:33.079 was doing than what Serbian Croatia were doing, but you know, 2431 03:07:33.319 --> 03:07:38.200 consistent economic stagnation, you know, reliance on subsidies, and you 2432 03:07:38.280 --> 03:07:40.600 know a handful of kind of key like national industries. 2433 03:07:41.159 --> 03:07:43.239 I mean, this is like everything they say about Serbia, 2434 03:07:43.520 --> 03:07:46.159 like being dysfunctional. It's like a mirror image of the 2435 03:07:46.239 --> 03:07:49.440 reality in Croatia. So I mean there's that too, like 2436 03:07:49.559 --> 03:07:51.040 I and I mean, I'm not I'm not saying to 2437 03:07:51.079 --> 03:07:53.680 be punitive. I got I think the Cross deserves about 2438 03:07:53.719 --> 03:07:57.319 great people, and I respect the fact that they've resisted, 2439 03:07:57.959 --> 03:08:01.319 you know, the the social engine regime astauantcy as they have. 2440 03:08:01.920 --> 03:08:04.440 But you can't you can't cast Serbian this light and say, oh, 2441 03:08:04.479 --> 03:08:07.079 but Croatia is not like that, because they're basically mirrors 2442 03:08:07.120 --> 03:08:11.959 of each other, like structurally, you know. And and frankly, 2443 03:08:12.159 --> 03:08:16.040 tu Jman Uh, he was a lot different than Melosovich, 2444 03:08:17.000 --> 03:08:18.760 like in terms of his character and in terms of 2445 03:08:19.239 --> 03:08:21.600 like his background, like we talked about in the first episode, 2446 03:08:22.399 --> 03:08:24.879 but he in terms of he was no more autocratic 2447 03:08:24.959 --> 03:08:28.280 than Melosovich was, Like arguably, I mean Tujman once the 2448 03:08:28.360 --> 03:08:32.319 war kicked off. I yes, Tujon was elected. Yes there 2449 03:08:32.319 --> 03:08:35.479 were fair elections in Croatia, but I don't think he 2450 03:08:35.520 --> 03:08:37.600 could have been removed like during this you know, the 2451 03:08:37.920 --> 03:08:41.079 State Act at war. Okay. Arguably he was like more 2452 03:08:41.959 --> 03:08:44.760 like like Molosa, which was more susceptible you know, to 2453 03:08:45.000 --> 03:08:47.879 like removal by due process than Tujman was. So there's 2454 03:08:48.000 --> 03:08:50.639 I mean, there's that too, Like you can't that this 2455 03:08:50.719 --> 03:08:54.719 attempt like other like the Serbians is is bullshit, okay. 2456 03:08:54.840 --> 03:08:58.719 And I mean, I I had thought that I conveyed 2457 03:08:58.760 --> 03:09:02.440 that clearly in our previous discussions, but because apparently I didn't, 2458 03:09:02.559 --> 03:09:06.000 I wanted our Serbian Orthodox friends to know that I 2459 03:09:06.479 --> 03:09:09.760 take that very seriously, and I'm I'm not disdaining them 2460 03:09:09.879 --> 03:09:17.360 or their considerations. But it's also too and the reason 2461 03:09:17.399 --> 03:09:19.799 why I'm Melosovich in his favor. One of the reasons 2462 03:09:19.879 --> 03:09:26.440 why he enjoyed the incumbentcated for thirteen years, you know, 2463 03:09:26.719 --> 03:09:30.719 like he did implement a market economy in a way 2464 03:09:30.760 --> 03:09:36.000 that didn't completely crash the the country, you know, unlike Yelson, 2465 03:09:36.079 --> 03:09:41.120 for example, he did tolerate multi party elections. I mean, admittedly, 2466 03:09:41.280 --> 03:09:45.719 like the political culture was exclusively you know, kind of 2467 03:09:45.799 --> 03:09:48.600 like Serb centric, but I mean again, that's appropriate. The 2468 03:09:48.719 --> 03:09:54.360 national democracy there was, there was an actual opposition, you know, 2469 03:09:54.760 --> 03:09:59.280 they did it media access. I mean, this wasn't like 2470 03:09:59.399 --> 03:10:01.239 all the kind of all the kind of pole stars 2471 03:10:02.680 --> 03:10:07.079 that these m g O types claim like constitute you know, 2472 03:10:07.239 --> 03:10:09.879 like a democratic state we approve of like he met 2473 03:10:09.920 --> 03:10:12.879 those Okay, I mean Serbia is a hell a lot 2474 03:10:12.920 --> 03:10:15.040 more free than israel Is, I'll tell you that much. 2475 03:10:15.520 --> 03:10:18.799 I mean, if that's you know, if that's any if 2476 03:10:18.920 --> 03:10:21.840 if that's the metric, you know, you can't you can't 2477 03:10:21.920 --> 03:10:24.959 claim that it was it was like Saddam's Iraq or 2478 03:10:25.040 --> 03:10:27.920 like it was this dictatorship or something, you know. I 2479 03:10:27.959 --> 03:10:31.399 mean it basically one of the reasons why again, like 2480 03:10:31.520 --> 03:10:35.840 Reagan's people and then Bushes people. Initially Melosmitch was their 2481 03:10:35.959 --> 03:10:39.239 guy is because he was basically doing he was basically 2482 03:10:39.319 --> 03:10:43.559 acting like a like a post communist, the like European 2483 03:10:43.680 --> 03:10:49.479 politician is supposed to act. You know. So this the 2484 03:10:49.600 --> 03:10:53.879 fact he was hailed into the Hague, you know, I think, 2485 03:10:54.079 --> 03:10:57.319 but you know, he he he died when he was 2486 03:10:57.520 --> 03:11:00.280 on trial, and I but I thought he had quoting 2487 03:11:00.360 --> 03:11:06.479 himself very honorably, you know. I like, well, and we'll 2488 03:11:06.479 --> 03:11:10.159 get into that in the in the book and episode. 2489 03:11:15.200 --> 03:11:20.920 I think, Uh, it's about all I got for to day. 2490 03:11:21.040 --> 03:11:23.479 Like frankly, I don't mean to be a I don't 2491 03:11:23.479 --> 03:11:27.760 mean to be a uh F A or p h 2492 03:11:27.879 --> 03:11:29.239 A G d O T. But I'm in a lot 2493 03:11:29.239 --> 03:11:34.840 of pain right now. Uh go ahead, I'm sorry, Yeah, 2494 03:11:34.920 --> 03:11:35.600 no problem at all. 2495 03:11:35.840 --> 03:11:38.079 Just uh hit hit up whatever you want to promote 2496 03:11:38.120 --> 03:11:39.600 and uh yeah, we'll get out of here. 2497 03:11:40.600 --> 03:11:44.079 No, that's great, Thank you, Pete. You can find me 2498 03:11:44.159 --> 03:11:48.559 on substack real Thomas seven seven seven substack dot com. 2499 03:11:50.239 --> 03:11:53.040 I'm having to report to annaly Pill Publishing. They're dear 2500 03:11:53.120 --> 03:11:55.440 friends of mine and they published some really incredible books 2501 03:11:55.559 --> 03:11:57.760 and I hope to publish with them in the future. 2502 03:12:00.200 --> 03:12:06.040 But uh, I'm participating in their UH in their UH 2503 03:12:06.719 --> 03:12:13.079 in their Creators program whereby if you UH, if you 2504 03:12:13.200 --> 03:12:17.319 enter my code when you order from Analog Press, like 2505 03:12:17.440 --> 03:12:19.520 regardless of size of the order, you get five percent off. 2506 03:12:21.799 --> 03:12:25.079 The code is lowercase three T H R E E 2507 03:12:25.639 --> 03:12:31.680 seven S c V E N number five. And not 2508 03:12:31.760 --> 03:12:33.760 only not only will you get five percent off, but 2509 03:12:33.879 --> 03:12:35.600 like I get a kickback from that too, as that 2510 03:12:35.719 --> 03:12:37.920 helps my brand. To just keep that in mind. You 2511 03:12:38.000 --> 03:12:40.040 can find out all the info on the substack. I 2512 03:12:40.159 --> 03:12:43.959 posted up a little piece about it. You can find 2513 03:12:44.000 --> 03:12:49.200 me on Twitter at real capital r E L R 2514 03:12:49.280 --> 03:12:52.280 E A L underscore number seven h O M A 2515 03:12:52.479 --> 03:12:55.040 S seven seven seven. You can always find me on 2516 03:12:55.120 --> 03:12:58.959 my website it's Thomas seven seven seven dot com. That's 2517 03:12:59.079 --> 03:13:01.959 number seven H one A S seven seven seven dot com. 2518 03:13:02.479 --> 03:13:06.000 You're find me on YouTube and Thomas TV number seven 2519 03:13:06.319 --> 03:13:09.879 H one A S TV. I'm uploading some like videos 2520 03:13:09.920 --> 03:13:12.239 I shoot just kind of like out and about and 2521 03:13:12.760 --> 03:13:14.680 with some of the people I talk to and things. 2522 03:13:14.879 --> 03:13:17.159 So that's gonna I'm hoping that's gonna pop a little 2523 03:13:17.159 --> 03:13:19.200 more as I upload more stuff. But that's what I 2524 03:13:19.280 --> 03:13:22.239 got all right until the next time. Thank you,