WEBVTT 1 00:00:30.800 --> 00:00:32.719 Welcome back to part two of our series about the 2 00:00:32.759 --> 00:00:35.200 death of Debbie Race. Let's dive right into the case. 3 00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:38.840 So the prosecution would bringing an expert to testify that 4 00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:40.880 the cuts in the bottom of the raft likely would 5 00:00:40.880 --> 00:00:43.280 have been made by an upward thrust with a knife 6 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:46.399 by someone who was underwater, and they also performed a 7 00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:48.799 number of tests to rule out the possibility that these 8 00:00:48.840 --> 00:00:51.439 cuts could have been caused by some jagged rocks. They 9 00:00:51.479 --> 00:00:53.600 were clearly in the shape of like a knife or 10 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:56.679 a sharp object. But the big issue with the prosecution 11 00:00:56.840 --> 00:00:58.880 is that they were unable to produce a knife which 12 00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:02.359 could have been a conclusive established is having slashed the raft. 13 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:05.879 They did find a snake knife inside a toolbox on 14 00:01:05.920 --> 00:01:07.959 the Jenny Lee, but the problem is that it did 15 00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:10.519 not match the puncture marks on the raft and there 16 00:01:10.519 --> 00:01:13.280 were no traces of rubber on it either. And even 17 00:01:13.319 --> 00:01:16.079 though Larry was known for owning two diving knives and 18 00:01:16.120 --> 00:01:17.959 neither of them could be found on the boat and 19 00:01:18.079 --> 00:01:21.560 were unaccounted for. But the explanation here for that five 20 00:01:21.599 --> 00:01:24.519 and a half hour gap where Larry was supposedly passed 21 00:01:24.519 --> 00:01:27.519 out is that he could have been disposing of evidence. 22 00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:30.439 So if he used a totally different knife to make 23 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:32.719 those puncture wounds in the raft. He probably went to 24 00:01:32.799 --> 00:01:34.879 a place to dispose of them where they have just 25 00:01:35.000 --> 00:01:35.799 never been found. 26 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:39.159 At some point during the story, Larry has to ut lucky. 27 00:01:39.280 --> 00:01:42.079 He's incredibly unlucky with the raft and with his story 28 00:01:42.120 --> 00:01:45.000 and all of these different lies that he's told along 29 00:01:45.040 --> 00:01:48.079 the way, or what I believe to be lies, because 30 00:01:48.120 --> 00:01:51.840 I just don't think that this was an accident. So 31 00:01:52.439 --> 00:01:54.719 somewhere along the line he has to be successful in 32 00:01:54.760 --> 00:01:57.719 the way that he planned this or potentially planned this crime. 33 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:02.840 Exactly. And also like he doesn't necessarily have to like 34 00:02:02.920 --> 00:02:05.319 dispose of the knife in the water, like he can 35 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:07.560 go somewhere on land and bury it somewhere in a 36 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:09.840 wooded area where the coast guard isn't going to search, 37 00:02:10.240 --> 00:02:12.560 and that could explain why this knife has never been 38 00:02:12.599 --> 00:02:14.639 found if this is exactly what he did. 39 00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:17.520 And that's just it right. It's not like you're looking 40 00:02:17.639 --> 00:02:20.280 for a decomposing body where you're going to bring in 41 00:02:20.520 --> 00:02:23.919 dogs that could sniff this out, or animals would predate 42 00:02:24.039 --> 00:02:27.520 upon the remains and maybe dig it up. You're looking 43 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:29.719 at burying a knife like no one's ever going to 44 00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:32.879 find that unless somebody has a metal detector and they're 45 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:35.879 looking for something metal and then they go and they 46 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:39.240 dig it up. Otherwise, authorities are never going to find something. 47 00:02:39.000 --> 00:02:41.840 Like that, Yeah, exactly. So I don't think the fact 48 00:02:41.879 --> 00:02:44.439 that they couldn't find a knife is evidence that Larry 49 00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:47.520 didn't use it in order to murder his wife. So 50 00:02:47.639 --> 00:02:49.680 Larry still had to stick to a story that he 51 00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:51.960 had two life rafts on board the Jenny Lee and 52 00:02:52.000 --> 00:02:54.400 that the one with the puncture marks was just left behind, 53 00:02:54.520 --> 00:02:56.960 and that the actual raft that Debbie went out on 54 00:02:57.240 --> 00:02:59.919 just disappeared. But they got search and rescue teams for 55 00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:02.840 the coast Guard to testify that they spent days searching 56 00:03:02.879 --> 00:03:05.800 for it and could not find it. And like I said, 57 00:03:05.800 --> 00:03:08.199 this is not like a small object like a knife. 58 00:03:08.199 --> 00:03:11.159 It floats on water. So they pretty much maintained that 59 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:13.599 if it was out there somewhere, we would have found it. 60 00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:16.439 And because the case garnered a lot of coverage in 61 00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:19.120 the local media, the authorities asked someone to come forward 62 00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:21.879 if they found a discarded raft anywhere in the area, 63 00:03:22.280 --> 00:03:25.039 but no one ever did, so I know that they 64 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:27.960 also got some of Larry's friends and diving companions to 65 00:03:28.039 --> 00:03:30.599 testify about his habits who had been on the boat 66 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:32.479 with him before, and they said, out of all the 67 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:34.479 times we went out with Larry, we do not recall 68 00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:37.599 ever having seen him with two separate life rafts on board. 69 00:03:37.919 --> 00:03:40.159 So that just seems very out of character for him. 70 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:43.599 Yeah, if it's not something that people are used to seeing, 71 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.719 then I'm much more inclined to believe that. Okay, so 72 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:50.759 it was what a year prior where the boat sank 73 00:03:50.840 --> 00:03:51.680 and he rescued his. 74 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:54.000 Daughters, Yeah, like the summer of nineteen eighty one. 75 00:03:54.159 --> 00:03:56.360 Yeah, So I believe that if you were going to 76 00:03:56.599 --> 00:04:00.599 then try to put implement some more security measures and 77 00:04:00.639 --> 00:04:04.360 have an additional flotation device on there in the event 78 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:06.719 that something went wrong with the boat, that you would 79 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:09.879 do so right after that. So then that would leave 80 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:12.919 me to believe that somebody would have seen this extra 81 00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:16.720 floatation device. The fact that nobody did is the major 82 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:20.240 red flag. And I'm more inclined to believe that the 83 00:04:20.279 --> 00:04:22.800 floatation device that they found that had the lake water 84 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:25.800 in it and had the punctures and the slashes that 85 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:28.800 expert said were likely from an upright thrust from a 86 00:04:28.879 --> 00:04:31.920 knife from somebody who was in the water from underneath. 87 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:35.639 Was the life raft, not a second life fraft. I 88 00:04:35.639 --> 00:04:37.600 don't believe that there ever was a second one. I 89 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:42.120 think this was the one, and that Larry somehow managed 90 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:46.079 to get Debbie on there and then he cut the 91 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:48.079 bottom out while he was in his dry suit. 92 00:04:49.240 --> 00:04:51.720 Yeah. The only witness who did support the idea that 93 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:54.519 Larry could have had two rafts was one of his daughters, 94 00:04:54.560 --> 00:04:56.920 who claimed that she had been in the garage prior 95 00:04:57.000 --> 00:04:59.079 to her mother's death and she recalled that she might 96 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:01.800 have seen two life on the shelf. And of course, 97 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:04.600 Larry's daughters continue to support him throughout this ordeal. They 98 00:05:04.600 --> 00:05:07.480 did not believe that he was capable of murdering their mother. 99 00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:08.800 But I think there's going to be a lot of 100 00:05:08.839 --> 00:05:12.279 bias there because the truth is just too hard to comprehend. 101 00:05:12.360 --> 00:05:14.560 So of course they're going to support their father at 102 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:17.759 every turn because they can't imagine the idea of losing 103 00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:18.600 both parents. 104 00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:22.120 Yeah. I think we see this a lot with cases 105 00:05:22.199 --> 00:05:25.879 where just because a child supports a parent, it doesn't 106 00:05:25.920 --> 00:05:29.519 necessarily mean that parent is innocent, because the way that 107 00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:33.040 they are with their children can be as different as 108 00:05:33.199 --> 00:05:35.759 night and day than they were with their partner or 109 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:39.519 their spouse, and children perceive things differently than the reality 110 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:43.839 of a relationship because parents will often wear masks in 111 00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:46.240 front of their children and they're not going to exhibit 112 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:49.759 the actual reality of the relationship because they're trying to 113 00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:52.920 protect their children. And I think most parents do this. 114 00:05:53.040 --> 00:05:55.120 There's a bit of a facade, and I think you 115 00:05:55.160 --> 00:05:57.839 get to know your parents as an adult, but while 116 00:05:57.839 --> 00:06:00.240 you're a child, you're seeing what they want to show you. 117 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:02.839 So the fact that they support their dad, it really 118 00:06:02.920 --> 00:06:03.800 doesn't surprise me. 119 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:06.839 Yeah, this is not the first case I've seen where 120 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:09.720 like the children of a spouse who was murdered still 121 00:06:09.759 --> 00:06:12.680 continued to support the other spouse, even if there was 122 00:06:12.720 --> 00:06:16.279 evidence to suggest that they were responsible. So, like we said, 123 00:06:16.560 --> 00:06:18.839 the daughters had been on the boat in the summer 124 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:20.920 of nineteen eighty one when it sank to the bottom 125 00:06:20.920 --> 00:06:23.360 of Lake Superior, but Larry wound up raising it to 126 00:06:23.399 --> 00:06:26.360 the surface and began repair work on it, And the 127 00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:28.639 first time he went out on the boat after it 128 00:06:28.680 --> 00:06:31.439 was repaired was actually May the seventh, nineteen eighty two, 129 00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:34.439 four days before Debbie's death, because he had fitted the 130 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:36.720 boat with a rebuilt engine, but claimed that there were 131 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:40.160 issues with the exhaust manifold bolt. So when he was 132 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:42.680 out there with these other guests, there was a slow 133 00:06:42.920 --> 00:06:44.839 drip type leak in the engine, but it did not 134 00:06:44.879 --> 00:06:47.680 appear to pose any risk, and the boat a engine 135 00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:50.439 seemed to work well in the water without the league worsening. 136 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:53.720 So several of Larry's friends would testify that they were 137 00:06:53.720 --> 00:06:56.199 with him on a diving expedition in the days prior 138 00:06:56.279 --> 00:06:59.480 to Debbie's death, and they did not recall seeing any issues, 139 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:02.279 and they also did not recall seeing two life rafts 140 00:07:02.279 --> 00:07:04.600 on board. So it just seems to be rotten luck 141 00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:07.319 that the very next time after that Larry went out 142 00:07:07.319 --> 00:07:09.319 on the lake with his wife, that's when the boat 143 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:11.439 would start to develop all these problems. 144 00:07:11.959 --> 00:07:14.319 Yeah, I'm just not buying it. It just seems to 145 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:17.600 be utterly convenient for Larry. 146 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:20.800 So here's another damning piece of evidence. The defense thought 147 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:23.360 this helped Larry and made him look innocent. They actually 148 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:26.879 called upon a sheriff's deputy to testify, claiming that three 149 00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:30.399 days before Debbie's death, he had actually personally spoken to 150 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:32.920 Larry because he had gone to the marina while he 151 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:35.600 was working on his boat and Larry actually approached him 152 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:38.519 and asked him to perform a safety inspection, and while 153 00:07:38.519 --> 00:07:41.240 the deputy declined, he did provide Larry with a list 154 00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:44.079 of safety equipment that was required by state law to 155 00:07:44.120 --> 00:07:47.240 be on the boat. Larry then responded by mentioning that 156 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:49.560 he had two life rafts on board, even though the 157 00:07:49.560 --> 00:07:52.800 deputy could not actually confirm having seen them. So the 158 00:07:52.839 --> 00:07:55.199 defense would argue, why would Larry ask this guy to 159 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:57.879 perform a safety inspection on the boat if he was 160 00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:00.879 planning to murder his wife, But the prosecute argued, he 161 00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:03.399 was probably just doing this to kind of establish an 162 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:06.519 alibi of sorts and make him look like a responsible 163 00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:10.199 boat owner, because technically, like, if you see a police officer, 164 00:08:10.279 --> 00:08:12.160 are you just going to say, by the way, officer, 165 00:08:12.199 --> 00:08:14.439 I want you to perform a safety inspection on my 166 00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:17.519 boat which just sank last summer, which runs a huge 167 00:08:17.600 --> 00:08:20.639 risk of him discovering a whole bunch of safety violations 168 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:22.759 which will prevent you from going on the water at all. 169 00:08:23.240 --> 00:08:26.480 So I don't think just randomly approaching deputies and asking 170 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:28.759 them to inspect your boat is something that most people 171 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:31.920 are just going to decide to do completelyhead of the blue. 172 00:08:32.000 --> 00:08:34.600 Yeah, it's like an owner of a restaurant seeing like 173 00:08:34.679 --> 00:08:37.399 a restaurant inspector on the street and being like, excuse me, 174 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:40.000 could you please come in and could you please look 175 00:08:40.039 --> 00:08:43.000 and see if there's any violations in my restaurant? Like, 176 00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:45.600 no one is going to do that. Ever, it seems 177 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:48.320 like it's a case of Larry doing too much, and 178 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:51.080 they're interpreting it as, oh, if I do this, it 179 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:53.399 looks like I'm so responsible, and then I've covered my 180 00:08:53.440 --> 00:08:56.279 bases and like you said, it's like a forensic countermeasure, 181 00:08:56.559 --> 00:09:00.000 but it's a bad one. It just it's like you're 182 00:09:00.080 --> 00:09:04.440 drawing attention to you, trying to make yourself appear as 183 00:09:04.480 --> 00:09:07.960 though you're so responsible, and then when things go awry, 184 00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:10.559 it's like, look at Larry over there, he's the most 185 00:09:10.559 --> 00:09:14.159 responsible boat owner. He's got somebody conducting all of these, 186 00:09:14.360 --> 00:09:17.360 you know, inspections on his boat and he's inviting them on. 187 00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:21.080 And then this still happened. What a good guy. And 188 00:09:21.159 --> 00:09:22.960 I think that's the way he thought that it would 189 00:09:22.960 --> 00:09:26.200 be perceived. He couldn't imagine that it could be perceived 190 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:28.919 any other way, and that this would be something that 191 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.279 would be held against him, which is wild to me. 192 00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:35.000 Yeah, definitely, And I find it odd that he specifically 193 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:37.679 said to the deputy, I have two life rafts on board. 194 00:09:37.720 --> 00:09:39.919 And I have a feeling that he probably did have 195 00:09:39.960 --> 00:09:42.840 two rafts on the boat at that particular occasion, and 196 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:45.320 that if the deputy had gone on board and seen 197 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:47.279 the rafts, he would have used that at trial and 198 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:49.480 they would have said, oh, look at this deputy. He 199 00:09:49.559 --> 00:09:51.960 saw two life rafts, and he's an officer of the law. 200 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:53.840 He's not going to lie about this sort of thing. 201 00:09:54.120 --> 00:09:56.120 So it was kind of a preemptive attempt to add 202 00:09:56.159 --> 00:09:59.399 credibility to his story, but because he didn't inspect the boat, 203 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:03.200 it did not work. So another key witness for the 204 00:10:03.279 --> 00:10:06.919 defense was Gene Obino, who was an underwater expert from 205 00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:09.960 the University of Minnesota who worked as a diving instructor. 206 00:10:10.480 --> 00:10:14.000 He attempted to debunk the prosecution scenario, testifying that it 207 00:10:14.000 --> 00:10:18.159 would have required superhuman strength and been physically impossible for 208 00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:20.240 Larry to have pulled off all the task he was 209 00:10:20.279 --> 00:10:23.399 accused of when he murdered his wife. So on the 210 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:26.559 night this took place, witnesses had reported seeing the Jenny 211 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:29.360 Leees lights near the mouth of the Taumadge River between 212 00:10:29.399 --> 00:10:32.720 eight thirty and nine thirty pm, which was the approximate 213 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:35.679 time period when Larry claimed that he and Debbie exited 214 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:38.799 the boat to climb into the life raft. However, Debbie's 215 00:10:38.840 --> 00:10:41.960 body was eventually found washed up on shore seven miles 216 00:10:42.000 --> 00:10:46.320 west of this location the following afternoon, and Obinau testified 217 00:10:46.320 --> 00:10:48.519 that Debbie's body would not have been able to drift 218 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:51.000 to that spot where she was found during this nineteen 219 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:53.600 hour window unless she had been in a raft for 220 00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:56.399 a period of time, and since she was found wearing 221 00:10:56.440 --> 00:10:58.840 a life jacket, Obino believed that she only would have 222 00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:00.840 been able to float a max some of one or 223 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:04.080 two miles before she washed up on shore. Well, the 224 00:11:04.120 --> 00:11:06.919 prosecution's rebuttal to this was that even though the Jenny 225 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:10.159 Lee was seen near the Tallmadge River at about nine pm, 226 00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:14.120 they technically only had Larry's word that Debbie left the 227 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:16.799 boat in the raft at this particular point in time, 228 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:20.440 as there were no other witnesses who could corroborate seeing Larry, 229 00:11:20.519 --> 00:11:24.039 Debbie or the raft in the water that night. So technically, 230 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:27.399 like if Larry is lying, then Debbie could have climbed 231 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:31.039 into the raft at another location miles away, so that 232 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:33.440 she only floated a mile or so when she wound 233 00:11:33.559 --> 00:11:35.480 up at the spot where she washed up on shore. 234 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:39.000 So even if John Obino is technically telling the truth 235 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:41.759 that she could not have floated seven miles, if Larry 236 00:11:41.840 --> 00:11:43.960 is lying about the point when she originally went in 237 00:11:44.000 --> 00:11:46.240 the water, then his testimony is meaningless. 238 00:11:46.679 --> 00:11:50.120 Yeah, then it's a moot point because we're relying completely 239 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:53.399 upon Larry to tell us where she entered the water. 240 00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:58.480 Then it's kind of pointless if we're believing that he 241 00:11:58.600 --> 00:12:01.600 set this whole thing up. So I don't know, it 242 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:05.360 just seems like Larry is somebody who's knowledgeable about the water, 243 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:08.919 and he might have an idea of the sorts of 244 00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:11.720 questions that could be asked regarding it. I'm just assuming 245 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:14.159 this based on the fact that he's a very accomplished 246 00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:17.559 scuba diver and he seems very into scuba diving and boating, 247 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:21.480 so there's a base level of knowledge there. So when 248 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:24.360 it comes to how far things can drift or wins 249 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:27.480 those types of things, and how far things can be carried, 250 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:30.360 I think that he would set up a story so 251 00:12:30.399 --> 00:12:32.600 that it would sound implausible for her to be in 252 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:34.960 a life jacket and to drift that far, I would 253 00:12:34.960 --> 00:12:37.360 think that would be a variable he would have considered 254 00:12:37.879 --> 00:12:42.080 when trying to establish where Debbie originally went into the water. 255 00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:44.320 If that makes sense, Oh. 256 00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:46.240 Yeah, it does to me, because, like I said, even 257 00:12:46.279 --> 00:12:49.320 though the witnesses saw the lights at that particular location 258 00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:52.759 at nine PM, and Larry said that Debbie climbed to 259 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:54.679 the rat at that point, remember he didn't call the 260 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:57.159 coastguard until two thirty am, so we have a gap 261 00:12:57.200 --> 00:12:59.519 of five and a half hours. So I think Larry 262 00:12:59.519 --> 00:13:02.240 could have tried to another location before he set off 263 00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:04.320 this murder plot, so that she only had to float 264 00:13:04.360 --> 00:13:08.159 about a mile or so. So. Obano also testified that 265 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:11.039 Debbie's skin lividity seemed to support the idea that she 266 00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:12.879 had been in a life raft when she made it 267 00:13:12.919 --> 00:13:15.679 to shore, because her blood had not sunk to her 268 00:13:15.720 --> 00:13:18.000 feet when she was found, which should have happened if 269 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:19.960 she had been in the water for an extended period 270 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:22.639 of time, since her life jacket would have kept her 271 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:26.360 an upward position. However, the prosecution claimed that the levels 272 00:13:26.360 --> 00:13:28.960 of Debbie's skin lividity showed that she had been floating 273 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:31.240 on her back for a long time. And this was 274 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:33.679 the same position her body was in when she was 275 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:36.480 found on shore. So if she was floating in the 276 00:13:36.480 --> 00:13:38.919 water for like nearly twenty four hours on her back 277 00:13:38.960 --> 00:13:41.840 the entire time, then this evidence about the lividity doesn't 278 00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:42.919 really mean anything at all. 279 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:47.240 Yeah, the lividity really means nothing unless we know the 280 00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:50.480 position that her body was in in the water. And 281 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:53.159 if she was found, like you said, she was found 282 00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:56.360 on shore on her back, yes she was, so we 283 00:13:56.399 --> 00:13:59.919 can assume that potentially she was floating in that same manner, 284 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:04.399 but we can't really know for sure. So to make 285 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:06.879 any assumptions and to say that, oh, she had to 286 00:14:06.919 --> 00:14:09.559 have been in a raft and to not think that 287 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:11.679 it's possible that she was floating on her back in 288 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:14.440 the water, I think is a bit of a wild assumption. 289 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:18.240 It is, Yeah, because we don't really have a verified timeline. 290 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:19.960 All we know for certain is that she was found 291 00:14:20.039 --> 00:14:22.759 at four pm the following day, but we don't know 292 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:24.759 when she went into the water, when she washed up 293 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:27.639 on shore, and how much she was floating. So the 294 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:31.399 defense would produce numerous character witnesses to testify on Larry's 295 00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:33.759 behalf who spoke highly of him and did not believe 296 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:36.120 he was capable of murdering his wife. And of course, 297 00:14:36.519 --> 00:14:39.159 all three of Larry and Debbie's daughters testified on their 298 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:42.320 behalf and did not believe their father was capable of 299 00:14:42.360 --> 00:14:45.159 harming their mother. But the most surprising thing about this 300 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:48.840 case is that Debbie's parents, Frank and Sylvia Selvie, stood 301 00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:51.519 by him as well, and they were well aware of 302 00:14:51.639 --> 00:14:56.000 Larry's infidelity, but they still offered their unwavering public support 303 00:14:56.120 --> 00:14:59.360 and genuinely believed that their daughter's death was an accident 304 00:14:59.759 --> 00:15:01.919 and believe Larry's story that even though he was a 305 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:04.360 lousy husband, that they do not believe he would have 306 00:15:04.360 --> 00:15:07.960 been capable of killing her. And this even rang true 307 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:11.159 like years later, because when they were interviewed on Unsolved Mysteries, 308 00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:14.039 this was like eight years after the trial, and they 309 00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:16.639 were still publicly defending Larry, saying that they one one 310 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:19.679 hundred percent believed that he was innocent and that Debbie's 311 00:15:19.679 --> 00:15:22.279 death was an accident. I mean, their support forum went 312 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:25.039 so far that during the trial, the judge actually had 313 00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:27.879 to ask the Selvies to leave the courtroom because they 314 00:15:27.879 --> 00:15:31.360 were interacting with Larry and openly embracing him. During recesses 315 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:34.039 while he was at the table, and the judge felt 316 00:15:34.039 --> 00:15:36.320 that this might unfairly influence the jury. 317 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:40.840 That is wild, and I think it comes down to 318 00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:43.840 in this case, I don't know what type of character 319 00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:46.840 and the charisma that Larry had and if he had 320 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:51.039 the parents under his spell, but it seems like they 321 00:15:51.080 --> 00:15:55.799 were really potentially in denial of all of these other things, 322 00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:59.519 and it feels like it's the convenient thing to defend 323 00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:02.919 him in a way. You have three granddaughters, and so 324 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:07.360 to accept that Larry could have killed Debbie and to 325 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:10.679 fight for justice for your daughter, your life looks very 326 00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:15.159 different because you might not then have access to your granddaughters. 327 00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:19.000 So what is the remaining piece of your daughter that 328 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:23.639 has left those girls? And on some level, it must 329 00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:26.039 have been a lot easier for them to just ardently 330 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:29.320 defend Larry and to be on that side of it 331 00:16:29.440 --> 00:16:34.639 and to guarantee access to their grandchildren via support for Larry, 332 00:16:35.240 --> 00:16:39.000 even if this was subconscious, then for them to fight 333 00:16:39.200 --> 00:16:42.360 against him and then lose access. 334 00:16:42.799 --> 00:16:45.159 Yes, I have seen this in a lot of cases 335 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:48.240 where one spouse is accused of murdering the other and 336 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:51.919 the victim's family totally turns on the accused, but they 337 00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:55.679 also lose access to the granddaughters because they're going to 338 00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:58.279 defend their parent no matter what. So even though it 339 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:00.600 does seem surprising like it'd be one thing if Larry 340 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:03.639 had painted himself as the perfect husband throughout the marriage 341 00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:05.759 and this was out of character, but it's even more 342 00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:07.960 surprising considering that they were well aware that he had 343 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:10.559 cheated on Debbie with no less than four different women. 344 00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:12.720 But I think you may be onto something there that 345 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:15.359 maybe they feared that even if Larry is found guilty 346 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:17.880 and sent to prison, if we turn on him, then 347 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:20.000 his daughters will want nothing to do with us and 348 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:23.039 will cut theirselves off. But at the very least, even 349 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:25.720 if they're fighting for Larry's innocence, they will stay with 350 00:17:25.799 --> 00:17:28.400 us because we will offer their support to them because 351 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:31.960 we are standing behind their dad. Even though the defense 352 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:34.440 tried to present that this was an accident and that 353 00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:37.279 Larry was incapable of murder, it sounds like the jury 354 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:40.480 did not believe it, because after deliberating for twelve hours, 355 00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:43.160 they found him guilty at first degree murderer and he 356 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:46.880 was given a life sentence at Stillwater State Prison in Minneapolis, 357 00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:50.119 with no possibility of parole for at least seventeen years. 358 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:53.079 So at the trial, on the advice of his attorneys, 359 00:17:53.119 --> 00:17:55.599 Larry never took the stand and testified on his own 360 00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:58.759 behalf because they figured that might backfire on him. But 361 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:01.440 Larry felt that the verdict may have been different if 362 00:18:01.480 --> 00:18:03.720 he had been allowed to testify and gave his side 363 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:06.279 of the story. So he came to believe that he 364 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:09.559 had received inadequate counsel, so as a result, he fired 365 00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:12.359 his original team of lawyers hired a new team of 366 00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:15.640 defense attorneys who appealed his conviction on the grounds of 367 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:19.079 inadequate council. There were also allegations that the jury had 368 00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:23.000 discussed Larry's decision not to testify during their deliberations, even 369 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:25.920 though the judge had specifically instructed them not to do this, 370 00:18:26.480 --> 00:18:28.640 and if true, this would have been a violation of 371 00:18:28.680 --> 00:18:31.400 Minnesota law and his Fifth Amendment rights and it could 372 00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:35.160 have unfairly influenced their verdict. And Larry also believed that 373 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:37.359 since the jury was made up of four men and 374 00:18:37.400 --> 00:18:40.680 eight women, that they may have been unfairly prejudiced because 375 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:44.599 of the information about his extramarital affairs. So a hearing 376 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:46.920 was held in which the jurors were questioned about this, 377 00:18:47.000 --> 00:18:49.480 but the trial judge ultimately decided that there was no 378 00:18:49.599 --> 00:18:52.640 germist conduct and that Larry had received a fair trial, 379 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:56.759 so his conviction was upheld, and Larry's original defense attorney 380 00:18:56.799 --> 00:18:59.200 started to speak out on this, saying that even though 381 00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:00.960 he claimed that he should, you would have testified at 382 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:03.559 trial that Larry had flat out told his attorneys that 383 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:06.359 he did not want to and said, quote, you can't 384 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:09.200 make me. So they ultimately decided it was not a 385 00:19:09.240 --> 00:19:11.480 good idea to put Larry on the stand since he 386 00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:14.720 had trouble giving direct answers to any questions, so that 387 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:17.920 might have made him look bad. So these accusations of 388 00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:20.400 inadequate counsel were not bought by the judge. 389 00:19:21.279 --> 00:19:24.319 No, and I think that Larry was actually smart not 390 00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:27.440 to get on that witness stand because his ever evolving 391 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:30.480 story would be brought into question. And so, how are 392 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:32.599 we supposed to believe that you're telling the truth now 393 00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:36.440 when it seems that you have been lying about little 394 00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:40.400 things and or misspeaking, not telling the truth in some 395 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:44.839 capacity misremembering. However, he wants to phrase it, when you 396 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:47.880 start painting that for the jury, and you start questioning 397 00:19:47.960 --> 00:19:51.680 Larry on all of these discrepancies. I don't think that 398 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:54.160 it paints a very good picture. And then when you're 399 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:57.920 introducing into evidence things like the affairs and having him 400 00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:01.359 speak on that and why, and then you have him 401 00:20:01.400 --> 00:20:03.880 talking about how he felt about Debbie, Like if that 402 00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:06.839 man got on the stand and said there's nothing wrong 403 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:11.319 with her in front of the jury, can you imagine. 404 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:13.240 Yeah, exactly. I'm just trying to visualize him trying to 405 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:16.000 put over his loving wife and say that and making 406 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:18.200 a bad impression of the jury. But it does sound 407 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:21.200 like textbook narcissism that he immediately thinks, well, if I 408 00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:22.839 had gotten on the stand and told my part of 409 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:25.119 the story, the jury would have found me not guilty. 410 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:27.920 When an actuality, the attorneys knew what they were doing 411 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:30.319 and figured that, yeah, they're probably gonna hate you and 412 00:20:30.359 --> 00:20:32.880 find you guilty even if the evidence isn't strong enough 413 00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:36.640 if you testify it. So in nineteen eighty five there 414 00:20:36.640 --> 00:20:39.319 would be another Appellet hearing which was held based on 415 00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:42.759 new information as a witness had come forward who had 416 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:45.680 purchased the Jenny Lee in the years following Debbie's death 417 00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:48.119 and claimed that in May of nineteen eighty four, he 418 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:52.519 started experiencing problems starting the engine, so an independent mechanic 419 00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:55.440 was hired to examine the boat's starter and concluded that 420 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:58.880 it was worn and could have caused an intermittent starting failure. 421 00:20:59.240 --> 00:21:01.920 The defense are you that this supported Larry's story, but 422 00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:04.920 the appellate court argued that two years had since pad 423 00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:07.880 since the starter issues happened, so this did not prove 424 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:10.920 that that jay Lee was experiencing the same engine problems 425 00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:13.920 on the night that Debbie died, So once again Larry's 426 00:21:13.960 --> 00:21:15.640 request for a new trial was denied. 427 00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:19.359 Yeah, I just don't think Larry's doing a very good 428 00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:25.039 job convincing anybody that he was unfairly or unjustly convicted, 429 00:21:25.240 --> 00:21:28.359 or ineffective counsel. All of these things that he's bringing up. 430 00:21:28.799 --> 00:21:31.319 It's sort of like it's falling on deaf years because 431 00:21:31.480 --> 00:21:34.720 it seems like he was well represented. And I think 432 00:21:34.759 --> 00:21:36.799 for him, he's so lucky that he did not get 433 00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:40.279 up on that stand, because he's inherently unlikable based on 434 00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:43.559 his words and his actions that he's taken stepping out 435 00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:46.960 in his marriage, that he would not have done well 436 00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:48.759 if he would have gone up on the stand. So 437 00:21:49.240 --> 00:21:52.440 I just think that, like crying about spilled milk after 438 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:55.039 the fact, he's not going to be very successful with this. 439 00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:58.839 No, definitely not. And he also did not do himself 440 00:21:58.839 --> 00:22:01.440 any favors when he was in viewed on Unsolved Mysteries, 441 00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:04.279 who did a final appeal segment about his case in 442 00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:07.160 December of nineteen ninety one, And I will say I 443 00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:09.839 watched this one originally aired. I saw it many times 444 00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:11.839 in the years afterwards, and I always used to be 445 00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:13.960 on the fence about it because I was thinking, well, 446 00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:16.920 he's not a likable guy, but could they really prove 447 00:22:17.039 --> 00:22:19.720 that he was capable of pulling off this very elaborate 448 00:22:19.799 --> 00:22:22.559 murder plot, which would have required what appeared to be 449 00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:25.759 superhuman effort. But I covered this one on the Trail 450 00:22:25.799 --> 00:22:28.440 when Cold a couple of years ago, and I started 451 00:22:28.440 --> 00:22:30.799 doing full research and found out that some of the 452 00:22:30.839 --> 00:22:34.799 more damning information against Larry was conveniently not mentioned on 453 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:38.480 Unsolved Mysteries. I was reading through news articles and legal appeals, 454 00:22:38.519 --> 00:22:40.240 and some of the stuff we brought up as being 455 00:22:40.279 --> 00:22:43.359 particularly damning, like the five and a half hours he 456 00:22:43.400 --> 00:22:46.079 supposedly passed out, and the fact that he kept changing 457 00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:49.599 his information about bringing scuba gear on board was not 458 00:22:49.799 --> 00:22:52.480 mentioned on the final appeal segment, which I'm sure was 459 00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:55.279 an attempt to add more ambiguity to the case and 460 00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:57.319 try to see it look like more of a mystery. 461 00:22:57.480 --> 00:22:59.960 So as as you can kind of tell, we are 462 00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:02.200 leaning towards Larry being guilty. But if you were to 463 00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:05.039 just watch the Unsolved Mystery sayingment on its own, without 464 00:23:05.079 --> 00:23:08.599 looking at any outside sources or information, you would probably 465 00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:11.240 feel more ambiguity towards them. 466 00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:14.200 Yeah, that makes sense to me, So like you are 467 00:23:14.240 --> 00:23:16.839 giving a lot more information than, of course an Unsolved 468 00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:20.279 Mystery segment is going to give. But I also feel 469 00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:23.240 like if you're to hear Larry talk about heavy and 470 00:23:23.440 --> 00:23:25.359 maybe if you're to hear it in the time period, 471 00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:28.160 it would be different. Now, we've got so many different 472 00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:31.240 true crime tropes, and we're very well aware of how 473 00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:34.880 somebody comes across in an interview, and we're more likely 474 00:23:34.920 --> 00:23:38.279 to analyze it. So I can imagine if you're watching 475 00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:41.680 this as a child, or watching this at whatever age 476 00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:45.440 in the nineteen eighties or the nineteen nineties, you're going 477 00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:49.319 to have a completely different perception than you would watching 478 00:23:49.400 --> 00:23:51.960 it now, because your knowledge, your depth and breadth of 479 00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:56.480 knowledge of crime and those who commit crimes is going 480 00:23:56.559 --> 00:24:00.680 to be infinitely greater than it would be back in 481 00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:04.279 that time period. So I think if you're watching the 482 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:07.119 unsolved mystery segment, you think, Okay, well there could be 483 00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:09.759 it could go either way. But that's the way they 484 00:24:09.799 --> 00:24:12.400 produce those segments. They want you to think that it 485 00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:14.839 could go either way and that there is some mystery. 486 00:24:15.000 --> 00:24:16.599 So that checks out for me. 487 00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:20.640 Oh yeah. Like this was originally aired many years before 488 00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:23.119 the Staircase documentary came out, and may have been my 489 00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:26.279 first experience seeing an analysis of a case where there's 490 00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:29.319 ambiguity about whether it was a murder or an accident. 491 00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:31.720 Like this isn't a thing where oh, someone else killed 492 00:24:31.720 --> 00:24:33.960 my wife and I've gone to prison. I'm going there. 493 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:35.720 He's trying to argue that I went to prison for 494 00:24:35.759 --> 00:24:38.079 a crime that never even happened, that there was not 495 00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:40.759 even any murder. So watching it at the time, I 496 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:43.279 had a lot more ambiguity about the whole thing. But 497 00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:45.039 the way they frame it, it makes it look like, oh, 498 00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:47.799 Larry swam back to his boat and then immediately started 499 00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:50.759 the engine and then went to shore to call for help. 500 00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:53.279 But then you read the legal appeals and you find it. Oh, 501 00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:55.839 he arrived and conveniently passed out for a few hours, 502 00:24:55.839 --> 00:24:57.759 and then he started the engine, and that looks much 503 00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:01.440 more damning for him. The Unsault my Mysteries broadcast actually 504 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:04.119 led to a new development because a pair of sisters 505 00:25:04.119 --> 00:25:06.480 came forward who watched the show, who claimed that they 506 00:25:06.519 --> 00:25:09.400 had once found a discarded raft about a year or 507 00:25:09.440 --> 00:25:12.079 so after Debbie's death, and they now believed that it 508 00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:14.960 may have been the missing second raft from the Jenny Lee. 509 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:17.519 So at the time they had not heard of this case, 510 00:25:17.559 --> 00:25:20.119 so they had no idea of the raft's potential significance. 511 00:25:20.200 --> 00:25:22.440 So one of the sisters wound up taking it home 512 00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:25.039 and cleaning it so that her children could play with it. 513 00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:28.440 She remembered stowing the raft in her mother's basement several 514 00:25:28.519 --> 00:25:31.720 years earlier, but by the time the Unsolved Mystery segment aired, 515 00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:33.920 she had no idea what happened to it, and they 516 00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:37.400 were unable to find it. But nonetheless, this revelation was 517 00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:40.559 used as grounds for a new appeal, and Larry's defense 518 00:25:40.599 --> 00:25:43.880 team filed another motion for a new trial. However, when 519 00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:46.480 a hearing was held, the testimony of the two sisters 520 00:25:46.519 --> 00:25:49.160 proved inconsistent, as they could not even be certain of 521 00:25:49.160 --> 00:25:51.839 the exact time period they found the raft, going back 522 00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:54.240 and forth between May of nineteen eighty two and May 523 00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:56.960 of nineteen eighty three, and they could not even pinpoint 524 00:25:57.000 --> 00:25:59.279 the exact location they found the raft, as one of 525 00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:01.759 the sisters said it was near Duluth, but Ben she 526 00:26:01.960 --> 00:26:03.640 changed her story and said it was in the Saint 527 00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:06.480 Croix River and got confused about whether the raft was 528 00:26:06.519 --> 00:26:10.119 found in Minnesota or Wisconsin. So since it could not 529 00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:13.000 be conclusively proven if the raft these sisters found was 530 00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:16.400 connected to the case, their testimony was ultimately dismissed and 531 00:26:16.480 --> 00:26:19.759 Larry's appeal was denied. So I do believe they probably 532 00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:22.480 were telling the truth about finding a raft at some 533 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:25.279 point on the river during the nineteen eighties, but there 534 00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:27.559 was nothing to indicate that this was the same raft 535 00:26:27.599 --> 00:26:28.359 from this case. 536 00:26:29.119 --> 00:26:31.680 They literally don't even know what city or state they 537 00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:35.079 found the raft in, so I'm a little befuddled by this, 538 00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:37.400 and I agree with you. It's possible that they found 539 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:39.599 a raft, but they don't have any of the details 540 00:26:39.640 --> 00:26:42.920 surrounding it, which makes me believe that the time is murky, 541 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:45.960 the dates murky, The location is murky. So you found 542 00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:49.440 a raft, Okay. It's like saying I saw a pair 543 00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:52.440 of shoes on the street at some point during some 544 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:55.960 year in some state, Like, Okay, how can you prove 545 00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:59.440 that that is connected? You can't. And we know how 546 00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:03.440 fallible eyewitness identification is with anything, and I think this 547 00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:07.039 just proves it again. It's not doing what Larry thinks it's. 548 00:27:06.920 --> 00:27:10.160 Doing exactly though I kind of would like to see 549 00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:13.039 Larry's reaction, Like imagine he's guilty in sitting in prison 550 00:27:13.079 --> 00:27:15.519 and these people come forward saying, oh my god, I 551 00:27:15.559 --> 00:27:17.799 found his raft, and Larry's thinking to himself, Oh, I 552 00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:19.759 didn't even have a raft. This is lucky for me. 553 00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:22.400 But it still makes me wonder though, if they still 554 00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:24.440 had the raft in their possession, like, would there be 555 00:27:24.480 --> 00:27:26.880 a way to be able to prove or disprove that 556 00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:29.559 this was a raft that was once on the Jenny Lee. 557 00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:31.960 But because obviously you're not going to be checking it 558 00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:34.440 for DNA or fingerprints after it's been in the water 559 00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:36.440 for a while. But I think the fact that they 560 00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:38.960 could not even pinpoint the location they found it because 561 00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:41.599 that they had found it in wisconstant. Then obviously it's 562 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:43.559 not going to be the same raft. It's not going 563 00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:45.519 to float all that way. So I think it was 564 00:27:45.599 --> 00:27:48.240 just a thing where these sisters thought they were being helpful, 565 00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:51.279 but in actuality, the raft they found had nothing to 566 00:27:51.319 --> 00:27:52.000 do with the case. 567 00:27:52.640 --> 00:27:55.039 Yeah, I happen to agree, And I think there's no 568 00:27:55.119 --> 00:27:56.759 way to know that it was a raft from the 569 00:27:56.839 --> 00:28:00.559 Jenny Lee unless it's like one of those booies kind 570 00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:03.079 of that are like life preservers that are on a 571 00:28:03.119 --> 00:28:05.759 boat that actually have the name of the boat on 572 00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:08.599 the life preserver. And I don't think that that was 573 00:28:08.640 --> 00:28:11.359 the case with these flotation devices, because we would have 574 00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:14.640 heard that it would have said that on it, or 575 00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:17.160 that it would have been printed, or it would have 576 00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:20.200 had it embroidered or something on the life raft so 577 00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:24.279 that it would be identifiable, and we don't hear any of this. So, yeah, 578 00:28:24.359 --> 00:28:26.680 the fact that the sisters likely thought that they were 579 00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:30.599 being helpful and in sharing this information, but it's so 580 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:34.799 non specific that it just feels meaningless. 581 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:39.200 So Larry eventually exhausted all his appeals and he finally 582 00:28:39.240 --> 00:28:41.279 got a chance in front of the parole board after 583 00:28:41.319 --> 00:28:44.759 serving seventeen years, but reportedly he still refused to admit 584 00:28:44.839 --> 00:28:48.319 guilt and still maintain his innocence, so his parole was denied. 585 00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:52.039 But in two thousand and five, Larry finally was granted 586 00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:55.160 parole and released from prison after serving twenty two years, 587 00:28:55.680 --> 00:28:57.960 and I haven't heard of him admitting any guilt. I 588 00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:00.640 think he still maintained his innocence, but the parole boards 589 00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:03.599 still let him free from prison, which they generally don't 590 00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:07.119 do unless you admit some culpability for your crime, especially 591 00:29:07.160 --> 00:29:10.960 since he had been originally senced to life imprisonment. So 592 00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:13.200 I have no idea how this played out. And maybe 593 00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:15.359 Larry just showed some of that charm of his and 594 00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:18.960 was able to convince this particular parole board that he 595 00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:21.880 had been wrongly convicted and railroaded, and they felt he 596 00:29:21.960 --> 00:29:24.759 was no longer a threat and released him, and as 597 00:29:24.759 --> 00:29:26.519 far as I can tell, he went back living with 598 00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:29.240 his daughters. I think he is still alive today, but 599 00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:32.720 he has never admitted any culpability and still maintains that 600 00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:35.519 he was wrongly convicted, And of course, since they believe 601 00:29:35.640 --> 00:29:38.279 that the right man went to prison, the investigation has 602 00:29:38.359 --> 00:29:41.599 been closed for several decades, so it is kind of 603 00:29:41.599 --> 00:29:43.839 surprising to me that a guy who still looked like 604 00:29:43.920 --> 00:29:46.480 he was guilty and never admitted any guilt, was still 605 00:29:46.519 --> 00:29:49.480 released from prison. So he actually made out better than 606 00:29:49.519 --> 00:29:52.079 somebody like Tommy Ziegler, who is still in prison to 607 00:29:52.119 --> 00:29:52.559 this day. 608 00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:56.839 Yeah. I feel like Florida is a very special state 609 00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:58.720 when it comes to holding on to those who are 610 00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:02.680 potentially wrongfully in gard arted. And we very much believe 611 00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:05.960 that Tommy Zieler is innocent and should be released, especially 612 00:30:06.039 --> 00:30:09.119 due to his declining health. But LORDA really seems to 613 00:30:09.160 --> 00:30:12.240 hold on tight. But as far as this case goes, 614 00:30:12.839 --> 00:30:16.240 he made out okay considering the fact that I personally 615 00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:18.960 believe that he is responsible for what happened to Debbie, 616 00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:21.839 and I'm sure that it served him well that his 617 00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:25.599 family supported him and that Debbie's family continued to support him. 618 00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:27.839 Yeah, as far as I can tell, they never did 619 00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:30.440 change their mind and still think he was innocent up 620 00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:33.960 until their dying day. So yeah, I pretty much feel 621 00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:35.839 the same thing. Like for years, I was kind of 622 00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:38.240 fifty to fifty on this case after watching it on 623 00:30:38.359 --> 00:30:41.240 Saw Mysteries because I felt, well, he's a terrible husband, 624 00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:44.079 he's not a likable person, but could he have pulled 625 00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:47.160 this off? But of course, after doing further research for 626 00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:49.720 my Trail and Cold episode a few years ago, I 627 00:30:50.079 --> 00:30:53.519 became convinced that he was likely guilty and deserved to 628 00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:56.720 go to prison. I guess the only ambiguity is, just like, 629 00:30:57.039 --> 00:30:59.720 what a risky murder plot? This was like the idea 630 00:30:59.720 --> 00:31:02.079 of making your wife out on a raft and freezing 631 00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:05.119 cold water and putting puncture marks out there to try 632 00:31:05.160 --> 00:31:08.359 to have her die of hypothermia. And for most people 633 00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:10.400 I would kind of think that this kind of murder 634 00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:12.880 plot is just way too elaborate. But once you read 635 00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:16.279 about Larry Race's diving background, how frequently he did this, 636 00:31:16.720 --> 00:31:18.880 and the knowledge he would have had of scuba diving 637 00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:22.079 and hypothermia, and the fact that he went through a 638 00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:24.680 similar incident with his daughter one year earlier, I do 639 00:31:24.759 --> 00:31:27.279 think he would have had the devious mind to brainstorm 640 00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:29.680 this and figure I'm going to try to kill my 641 00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:32.119 wife and have her freeze to death of hypothermia and 642 00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:34.880 make it look like an accident and hopefully I will 643 00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:36.799 get away with it and collect the insurance money. 644 00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:42.359 What is wild to me is that he went a 645 00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:46.200 little bit too far with the life raft. If he 646 00:31:46.720 --> 00:31:48.960 had this plan that he was going to put Debbie 647 00:31:49.000 --> 00:31:51.920 into this life raft and then sink the life raft 648 00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:55.559 so she would have hypothermia and then perish in the water. 649 00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:59.000 He went a little overzealous. Did you say there was 650 00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:02.519 five or seven in puncture marks in the life five? 651 00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:06.000 So I think he made a couple of mistakes there. 652 00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:08.559 He could have just made one puncture mark in the 653 00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:11.440 life raft. He could have done one large one and 654 00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:16.640 then maybe used something that was not a knife, because 655 00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:19.200 it's pretty easy to tell it's a really clean cut. 656 00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:21.599 Maybe if he used a rock or something else that 657 00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:25.519 was sharp but not so identifiable. But then his next 658 00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:29.599 mistake was having the lake water in that raft and 659 00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:33.440 then bringing it back onto the Jenny Lee. He could 660 00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:35.519 have disposed of it somewhere. He could have cut it 661 00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:38.559 up into little pieces, put it in something and sunk it. 662 00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:41.000 There is a lot of different ways that he could 663 00:32:41.000 --> 00:32:44.599 have approached that life raft, but it became a piece 664 00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:50.160 of evidence that experts were then able to analyze and say, well, no, 665 00:32:50.599 --> 00:32:53.160 these cuts didn't come from a rock. They came from 666 00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:56.119 an upward thrust from a knife from somebody underwater, And 667 00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:58.799 so that opens up that possibility that we've got Larry 668 00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:01.920 with his scuba gear with his dry suit. He's got 669 00:33:01.960 --> 00:33:05.480 Debbie into this life raft and he's swimming up underneath her, 670 00:33:05.799 --> 00:33:07.920 and like a scene out of a movie or out 671 00:33:07.960 --> 00:33:11.799 of fiction. Like you said, we've got him cutting this 672 00:33:11.880 --> 00:33:15.160 life reserver and then swimming away and waiting for his 673 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:18.839 wife to die. It seems like in that very narrow 674 00:33:19.680 --> 00:33:23.400 window of time that that would have happened. He's then 675 00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:25.960 what waiting in the wings for Debbie to get out 676 00:33:26.000 --> 00:33:28.359 of the life raft and then grabbing the life raft 677 00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:31.640 and taking it back to the Jenny Lee, because it 678 00:33:31.640 --> 00:33:33.440 seems like he would have had to have been close 679 00:33:33.480 --> 00:33:36.200 to Debbie when she was out of the raft or 680 00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:38.960 when she started to panic or passed out, and then 681 00:33:39.039 --> 00:33:42.359 went and retrieved that life raft. I feel like had 682 00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:45.119 no life wrap been found out all, he would have 683 00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:46.200 been in a better position. 684 00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:49.079 I think he was kind of too clever for his 685 00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:51.000 own good, that maybe he should have just left the 686 00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:54.200 life raft on the lake because Debbie apparently couldn't swim, 687 00:33:54.279 --> 00:33:56.359 so a more easier way to do it would be 688 00:33:56.359 --> 00:33:57.799 to drag her out to the middle of the lake, 689 00:33:57.880 --> 00:33:59.759 knock her out of the raft, and then just wait 690 00:33:59.799 --> 00:34:03.039 for her to like either drown or die of hypothermia 691 00:34:03.079 --> 00:34:05.000 and then just leave the rat floating out there, and 692 00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:07.440 then he could just swim back to the Jenny Lee 693 00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:09.440 call for help, and then during the search, if they 694 00:34:09.440 --> 00:34:12.000 found Debbie and the raft floating in the lake, they 695 00:34:12.000 --> 00:34:14.840 could just assume, well, she fell out and died of hypothermia. 696 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:17.360 And even if they became suspicious of Larry, it would 697 00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:19.400 be much harder to prove murder if you don't have 698 00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:22.679 puncture marks or anything like that. So I don't know 699 00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:24.480 why he did that to begin with. I think he 700 00:34:24.519 --> 00:34:26.320 was just trying to make this look like a movie 701 00:34:26.360 --> 00:34:28.440 when he could have done it in a much simpler fashion. 702 00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:31.760 I think he's a coward, is what I think. Okay, 703 00:34:32.119 --> 00:34:36.320 that for him to go and while Jenny is cognizant 704 00:34:36.360 --> 00:34:39.559 of what is happening, he could get hurt or sorry, well, 705 00:34:39.719 --> 00:34:44.239 the Jenny Lee, yeah, Debbie, Well, Debbie is conscious and 706 00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:47.039 she's aware of what's happening. He's not going to do 707 00:34:47.119 --> 00:34:48.920 it to her face. It's like the way that he 708 00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:52.440 conducts affairs. He doesn't directly say to Debbie's face, I 709 00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:54.039 don't want to be with you, I don't want to 710 00:34:54.039 --> 00:34:56.440 be in this relationship. I'm not in love with you anymore, 711 00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:59.840 which his words would lead us to believe that is 712 00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:02.920 actions would lead us to believe that he doesn't say 713 00:35:02.920 --> 00:35:05.199 that to Debbie. And so the way that he killed 714 00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:08.679 her is the same cowardly way he does it behind 715 00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:12.039 her back. He does it in an indirect way. He 716 00:35:12.119 --> 00:35:14.320 will not knock her out of that raft would have 717 00:35:14.360 --> 00:35:16.440 been a lot easier, but he would have had to 718 00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:18.719 stab her in the front versus stabbing her in the back. 719 00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:21.199 Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense to 720 00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:24.320 me that that probably explains why he did it underwater, 721 00:35:24.480 --> 00:35:26.159 so he didn't have to see her while he was 722 00:35:26.199 --> 00:35:28.920 doing it, and that explains the puncture marks. But it 723 00:35:29.000 --> 00:35:33.039 wound up being his downfall, his undoing. And I do 724 00:35:33.119 --> 00:35:36.079 think that the five and a half hour discrepancy before 725 00:35:36.119 --> 00:35:38.239 he called the coast guard at two thirty am is 726 00:35:38.280 --> 00:35:41.079 probably the result of him disposing of evidence because they 727 00:35:41.079 --> 00:35:43.360 never found the knife, they never found the scuba gear, 728 00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:46.840 and they never found the gear bag which contained Larry's 729 00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:49.800 shoes and Jenny's purse. And I know that the coast 730 00:35:49.840 --> 00:35:51.760 guard did a thorough search, so I think he may 731 00:35:51.800 --> 00:35:54.199 have traveled outside the search area to get rid of it, 732 00:35:54.400 --> 00:35:56.280 or maybe he even did it on land. He put 733 00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:58.280 it in like a wooded area and buried it so 734 00:35:58.360 --> 00:36:00.960 that they wouldn't even be looking for there. And but 735 00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:03.199 of course he was too clever for his own good, 736 00:36:03.320 --> 00:36:06.679 because once they realized that there's this weird discrepancy of 737 00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:08.440 five and a half hours, he had to come up 738 00:36:08.440 --> 00:36:11.760 with this implausible story of passing out of exhaustion for 739 00:36:11.800 --> 00:36:14.119 a few hours. And that's what caused them to just 740 00:36:14.159 --> 00:36:16.920 build evidence after evidence against him until they finally had 741 00:36:16.920 --> 00:36:19.280 a prosecutable case to indict him for murder. 742 00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:22.679 So how do you think that this played out? Do 743 00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:26.159 you think that, like, because for Larry to go and 744 00:36:26.199 --> 00:36:28.320 dispose of all of this evidence, to do all of 745 00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:32.280 these different things, it would require him moving about in 746 00:36:32.360 --> 00:36:36.000 the water and being able to do so quickly, and 747 00:36:36.159 --> 00:36:38.840 just swimming around in a dry suit isn't going to 748 00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:42.360 cut it. So is it likely that he made it 749 00:36:42.400 --> 00:36:45.039 appear that the Jennie Lee was taking on water and 750 00:36:45.119 --> 00:36:47.760 was going to go down, and then he basically got 751 00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:50.559 Debbie into a life raft, pushed her out, and then 752 00:36:51.159 --> 00:36:54.920 went and swam cut the bottom of the life raft 753 00:36:55.079 --> 00:36:57.800 and then waited for Debbie to be in the water 754 00:36:58.280 --> 00:37:01.360 and then fix whatever issue who was on the Jenny Lee, 755 00:37:01.800 --> 00:37:05.039 dragged the or for dragged the life preserver back, fixed 756 00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:07.639 the issue that was on the Jenny Lee, made it operable, 757 00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:12.920 and then went and drove the boat over to wherever 758 00:37:12.960 --> 00:37:15.239 he needed to go to go dispose of this evidence. 759 00:37:16.079 --> 00:37:18.039 I think so. I think that it would have taken 760 00:37:18.119 --> 00:37:20.280 him a couple hours to do all that in the dark. 761 00:37:20.360 --> 00:37:22.840 And I do think that they left the boat at 762 00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:26.000 a different location than Larry said, which would explain like 763 00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:28.719 why she was found seven miles away, because it seems 764 00:37:28.760 --> 00:37:31.719 implausible she could have floated that a distance, but he 765 00:37:31.760 --> 00:37:33.760 could have traveled there by boat. And she did not 766 00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:35.920 actually get into the water at nine pm, It may 767 00:37:35.920 --> 00:37:38.920 have been much later, and then she floated an hour 768 00:37:39.400 --> 00:37:41.199 a mile to the spot where she was found. He 769 00:37:41.239 --> 00:37:43.599 spent the time disposing of the evidence, and then he 770 00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:45.960 went to shore and called for help with the Coastguard. 771 00:37:46.000 --> 00:37:47.480 With this whole cover story. 772 00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:51.360 It's like he thought of half the things, but not everything. 773 00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:54.639 He took a lot of variables into consideration, but the 774 00:37:54.679 --> 00:37:57.000 way that he went about doing things, and I think, 775 00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:00.480 just with his limited knowledge and limited act says to 776 00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:04.400 the way that investigations were conducted and the way that 777 00:38:04.760 --> 00:38:08.760 investigators would approach a murder investigation slash an accident. I 778 00:38:08.800 --> 00:38:11.559 could see, like you'd mentioned earlier, and it resonated with me, 779 00:38:12.199 --> 00:38:16.039 is that he probably thought that this was just a 780 00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:19.440 tragic accident, and or he thought that that's how it 781 00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:22.480 would be perceived, that the authorities would be like, oh, 782 00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:26.000 my goodness, he had this accident with his daughters, and 783 00:38:26.079 --> 00:38:29.639 now this has happened with his wife. Poor Larry. And 784 00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:32.920 look he on a safe boat. He called a deputy 785 00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:34.760 over to take a look and to make sure that 786 00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:37.960 it was safe. And look, I've got two life preservers here. 787 00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:38.920 What a guy. 788 00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:43.440 Yeah exactly, But like most of these narcissists are not 789 00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:45.519 as clever as they think they are, and it wound 790 00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:48.519 up being his undoing. And I think the only reason 791 00:38:48.559 --> 00:38:52.079 that we've even heard of this case is probably because 792 00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:54.760 he managed to convince Debbie's parents that he was a 793 00:38:54.760 --> 00:38:58.039 good guy. It's still not entirely clear to me who 794 00:38:58.079 --> 00:39:00.559 actually took this case to Unsaw mystery, but it would 795 00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:03.519 not surprise me if Larry's daughters and Debbie's side of 796 00:39:03.519 --> 00:39:05.599 the family approached them and they probably thought, well, the 797 00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:08.000 evidence kind of shows he's guilty. But this is going 798 00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:10.760 to be an interesting story because of the ambiguity the 799 00:39:10.800 --> 00:39:13.519 mysterious aspects, so we're gonna put it on the show. 800 00:39:13.559 --> 00:39:15.440 But if that had not happened, I think this case 801 00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:17.920 would have elanguished an obscurity and no one outside of 802 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:21.119 Minnesota would have even heard about it. But for whatever reason, 803 00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:23.679 Larry just got very lucky that he managed to convince 804 00:39:23.719 --> 00:39:26.760 the parole board to release him without admitting guilt, and 805 00:39:26.840 --> 00:39:29.920 he's going to get to die a free man. So yeah, 806 00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:32.280 obviously there's not a lot of ambiguity here about how 807 00:39:32.280 --> 00:39:34.760 we feel about this case. It's not one where we're 808 00:39:34.760 --> 00:39:37.760 debating guilt or innocence. So is there any further thoughts 809 00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:39.639 you have on the death of Debbie Race? 810 00:39:40.639 --> 00:39:43.800 This is just really frustrating because I feel like we 811 00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:47.960 know Larry because we know him through his actions, and 812 00:39:48.039 --> 00:39:51.199 so I can I feel like I bought the vibe 813 00:39:51.199 --> 00:39:53.880 of who Larry is and what he's done, the type 814 00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:56.840 of person that he is, But there's just so much 815 00:39:56.960 --> 00:40:00.280 less information about Debbie out there, and so so I 816 00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:02.679 wish that I knew more about the type of person 817 00:40:02.719 --> 00:40:06.199 that she was and that who she left behind that 818 00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:08.480 loved her and the way that they felt about her, 819 00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:12.239 because it's easy, just like with the Kathleen and Michael 820 00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:16.039 Peterson staircase murder, it's easy for Kathleen to get lost 821 00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:18.800 in the chaos, and it's for it to be all 822 00:40:18.840 --> 00:40:23.639 about Michael and everything Michael related, because he's such a 823 00:40:23.679 --> 00:40:27.480 big personality and a big character, and I think that 824 00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:29.760 we're seeing a lot of that in this case. And 825 00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:33.719 also it doesn't it doesn't really help the situation that 826 00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:36.320 it was a case from nineteen eighty two. It's like 827 00:40:37.039 --> 00:40:40.760 forty something years ago, so we aren't going to have 828 00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:44.199 the information available. And I just truly hope that his 829 00:40:44.360 --> 00:40:49.119 daughters and that Debbie's daughters and Larry's daughters went on 830 00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:53.079 to have a really great life and that they spent 831 00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:56.239 lots of time with their grandparents, and that those grandparents, 832 00:40:56.280 --> 00:41:01.000 because of their support to Larry for Larry, had access 833 00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:04.360 to them, and that they had close relationships, because that 834 00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:07.719 was all that remained of Debbie on this earth, And 835 00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:12.159 that is my hope in prayer for them, And that's 836 00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:12.880 pretty much it. 837 00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:15.840 Yeah, pretty much feel the same way. I do think 838 00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:18.039 it's a shame that we don't really know much about 839 00:41:18.039 --> 00:41:20.599 Debbie as a person. Because Larry has been the subject 840 00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:23.159 in this case, and that even Debbie's own parents and 841 00:41:23.239 --> 00:41:25.760 during their interviews, spent more time talking about Larry in 842 00:41:25.880 --> 00:41:27.760 order to support them. But I kind of think that 843 00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:30.280 Debbie got lost in the mix, and it is kind 844 00:41:30.280 --> 00:41:32.840 of sad that her legacy is there's nothing wrong with her, 845 00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:35.159 like that's the most glowing thing anyone has ever said 846 00:41:35.159 --> 00:41:37.960 about her in interviews. But yeah, you can imagine how 847 00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:40.079 terrifying it would have been for to be like out 848 00:41:40.079 --> 00:41:41.760 there on a life raft in the middle of a 849 00:41:41.800 --> 00:41:43.960 freezing cold lake in the middle of the night, and 850 00:41:44.000 --> 00:41:46.440 then realize that your husband has betrayed you and slashed 851 00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:48.760 the raft and that you're going to die like a slow, 852 00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:51.719 agonizing death in the water. So yeah, you just have 853 00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:53.960 to feel immense sympathy for her. And I do hope 854 00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:57.079 that their daughters, even though there's some pretty harsh truth 855 00:41:57.119 --> 00:41:59.440 about their father, have gone on to live good lives. 856 00:42:00.199 --> 00:42:03.239 And honestly, like I can't help but think about the 857 00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:07.320 whole Robert Wagner Natalie Wood case where we see the 858 00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:10.159 parallels with Debbie being really afraid of the water, and 859 00:42:10.159 --> 00:42:13.559 we see it being so dark and it would have 860 00:42:13.599 --> 00:42:17.079 been cold and we know that Natalie would like, for 861 00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:19.400 those of you who aren't familiar, she had an intense 862 00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:21.920 fear of water and was scared her whole life that 863 00:42:22.000 --> 00:42:24.840 she was going to drown or die in water. And 864 00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:28.079 then she ends up on that boat with it was 865 00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:31.800 Robert Wagner and it was Christopher Walkin. 866 00:42:32.199 --> 00:42:32.960 Yeah, that's correct. 867 00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:38.719 Yeah, And it seemed like Robert Wagner was jealous over 868 00:42:39.119 --> 00:42:44.679 some potential flirtation between co stars Natalie Wood and Christopher Walkin, 869 00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:48.800 and something might have happened there. And I'm more inclined 870 00:42:48.840 --> 00:42:52.559 to believe that Robert Wagner did something, in my personal opinion, allegedly, 871 00:42:53.159 --> 00:42:56.960 but this case, I can't help but get shades of that. 872 00:42:57.119 --> 00:42:59.519 And my heart breaks for Natalie Wood and my heart 873 00:42:59.519 --> 00:43:03.000 breaks for Debbie because when you are so deathly afraid 874 00:43:03.039 --> 00:43:06.119 of something, to have that be the thing that kills you, 875 00:43:06.840 --> 00:43:10.679 and for it to be at the hands potentially of 876 00:43:10.719 --> 00:43:13.679 the person that you're supposed to love and trust the 877 00:43:13.719 --> 00:43:18.039 most is just such a horrific way to have your 878 00:43:18.079 --> 00:43:21.960 time on Earth end. And that saddens me really. 879 00:43:21.719 --> 00:43:24.920 Deeply, definitely so at the very least, even though there 880 00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:29.079 really isn't a case to solve anymore because his investigation 881 00:43:29.199 --> 00:43:31.320 is officially closed and we believe the right man went 882 00:43:31.360 --> 00:43:34.079 to prison. At least we can still memorialize someone like 883 00:43:34.119 --> 00:43:37.400 Debbie and closing, I just want to say the owl 884 00:43:37.440 --> 00:43:39.559 didn't do it in this particular case. I just want 885 00:43:39.599 --> 00:43:42.480 to make that clear. So that about brings an end 886 00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:45.559 to our two part series about the death of Debbie Race. 887 00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:47.719 Thank you so much for your continued support, and we 888 00:43:47.760 --> 00:43:49.800 will be back next week in order to talk about 889 00:43:49.840 --> 00:43:50.480 another case.