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<v Speaker 1>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome to The Pathway Chili for our next series of episodes.

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<v Speaker 2>Per usual, Ashley is still off for a little while,

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<v Speaker 2>so Jules and I will be discussing a case where

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<v Speaker 2>I share all the details and she will give off

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<v Speaker 2>her live reactions. So, Jules, are you familiar with the

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<v Speaker 2>murder of Holly Staker?

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<v Speaker 1>No, I don't think I've ever heard of this case.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, this is a wrongful conviction case about a man

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<v Speaker 2>named Juan Rivera who was unjustly incarcerated for her murder,

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<v Speaker 2>so it's technically still unsolved. This is the one I've

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<v Speaker 2>talked about a lot. I covered it on The Trail

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<v Speaker 2>Went Cold many years ago. I also did a cross-promotional

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<v Speaker 2>episode with Aaron from Generation Y in which we discussed

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<v Speaker 2>the case. And I wanted to do it now because

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<v Speaker 2>just a couple weeks after we record this, I will

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<v Speaker 2>be appearing at AdvocacyCon in Albuquerque, New Mexico and doing

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<v Speaker 2>a presentation on wrongful convictions with Justin from Generation Y,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm going to talk about this case. And This

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<v Speaker 2>is one of the most egregious wrongful convictions you're ever

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<v Speaker 2>going to see, so I want to discuss it with

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<v Speaker 2>you and see your live reaction, because I can guarantee

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<v Speaker 2>there are some moments here that will absolutely disgust you.

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<v Speaker 1>I love a wrongful conviction case because it points out

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<v Speaker 1>all of the issues with the system, especially when it

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<v Speaker 1>comes to somebody of a lower socioeconomic status, if it's

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<v Speaker 1>a person of color. then we see that the system

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<v Speaker 1>seems to be rigged against certain people. And it also

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<v Speaker 1>points out the damage that it can do to multiple

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<v Speaker 1>families when law enforcement has tunnel vision and they get

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<v Speaker 1>the wrong person. The victim's death isn't punished and you

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<v Speaker 1>have the wrong person behind bars, so there's the familial

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<v Speaker 1>ramifications that that causes. And it is a ripple effect.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's not just those two families that are affected.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a potential that the offender could then again re-offend

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<v Speaker 1>and could hurt somebody else's child. So it is just

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<v Speaker 1>such a complex topic. And I know we always love

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<v Speaker 1>when Ashley weighs in on this because she's so great

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<v Speaker 1>with wrongful convictions. So I will try to do it justice.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, like this is pretty much an example of

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<v Speaker 2>when the system went horribly wrong. Like everything you just

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<v Speaker 2>talked about happens in this case where they put an

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<v Speaker 2>innocent person in prison. and they pretty much harmed the family,

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<v Speaker 2>and then you get evidence that the real killer may

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<v Speaker 2>have harmed someone else while the wrong person was in jail.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just an example where even after it seemed obvious

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<v Speaker 2>that authorities got the wrong person, they refused to admit

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<v Speaker 2>that they made a mistake and just kept keeping this

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<v Speaker 2>going on for years and years and causing a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of trauma for a lot of people. So the case

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<v Speaker 2>takes place in 1992 in Waukegan, Illinois, and the victim

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<v Speaker 2>is 11-year-old Holly Staker. And on the evening of August

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<v Speaker 2>the 17th, she babysat the two children of one of

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<v Speaker 2>her neighbors, Don Engelbrecht. The children were Don's 5-year-old son, Blake,

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<v Speaker 2>and her 2-year-old daughter, Taylor. So they lived at a

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<v Speaker 2>two-flat apartment house, and Holly was there for a couple hours.

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<v Speaker 2>But when nightfall hit, Blake decided to go outside to

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<v Speaker 2>play for a little while. But a short time later,

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<v Speaker 2>he approached one of his neighbors to claim that when

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<v Speaker 2>he tried to go back inside the house, the front

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<v Speaker 2>door was locked, and even though he repeatedly knocked on it,

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<v Speaker 2>no one answered. So the neighbor took Blake to the

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<v Speaker 2>nearby tavern where Dawn was working her shift and explained

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<v Speaker 2>the situation, and when Dawn attempted to call her house

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<v Speaker 2>to speak with Holly, there was no answer, so she

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<v Speaker 2>immediately became concerned and asked Holly's mother to meet her,

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<v Speaker 2>at the house. And when they went inside, they did

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<v Speaker 2>find Taylor, the two-year-old, but there did not appear to

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<v Speaker 2>be any sign of Holly. And the back door appeared

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<v Speaker 2>to be kicked in, so there were signs that there

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<v Speaker 2>was an intruder there. And so they notified the police,

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<v Speaker 2>and after they arrived, they went inside the children's bedroom

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<v Speaker 2>and discovered that Holly had been murdered. Her body was

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<v Speaker 2>partially clothed, and it turned out she'd been sexually assaulted, strangled,

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<v Speaker 2>and stabbed 27 times.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow, there's so much here. Firstly, what a symptom of

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<v Speaker 1>the 1990s to have a five-year-old playing unattended outside. That's

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<v Speaker 1>not something you're going to see happen if somebody's being

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<v Speaker 1>babysat today. The fact that Holly is only 11, she's

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<v Speaker 1>watching these children, and to think that there was somebody

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<v Speaker 1>who was either aware that the parents were going to

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<v Speaker 1>be away or out, or that they'd been watching the house...

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<v Speaker 1>Because it seems unlikely that this is just some random

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<v Speaker 1>crime of opportunity that somebody wasn't laying in wait for

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<v Speaker 1>a moment where Holly would be alone and vulnerable. Because

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<v Speaker 1>while the parents were there, nothing like this happened. But

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<v Speaker 1>when she's alone, during this small window of time, she's attacked.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's almost like this offender is emboldened enough to

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<v Speaker 1>believe that these people aren't coming back right away. So

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<v Speaker 1>that would lead me down the road that they must

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<v Speaker 1>have been watching. Because if you were going to attack

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<v Speaker 1>a young girl who's 11, the chances are good if

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<v Speaker 1>you think that she lives there and you're not assuming

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<v Speaker 1>she's the babysitter, that the parents could be home at

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<v Speaker 1>any minute. So it's almost like this person knew this

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<v Speaker 1>window of time that they had.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that is one of the big unanswered questions of

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<v Speaker 2>this case. Was Holly specifically targeted? Did the offender know

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<v Speaker 2>that she was going to be there alone babysitting? because

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<v Speaker 2>it's not often that someone is just going to break

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<v Speaker 2>into a stranger's house and kill the babysitter without knowing

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<v Speaker 2>ahead of time that she's going to be there. But

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<v Speaker 2>one of the weirdest details of this case that I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think gets talked about enough is that when Dawn

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<v Speaker 2>looked around, she did not think that anything was missing,

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<v Speaker 2>so it did not appear that this was a botched robbery,

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<v Speaker 2>but she did notice that a photograph inside a frame

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<v Speaker 2>that she normally kept on her mantle had been stolen.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think that's bizarre. It makes me wonder, was someone, like,

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<v Speaker 2>targeting the Engelbrechts? Maybe they were going after Dawn and

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<v Speaker 2>were attempting to kill her, but when they came inside,

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<v Speaker 2>they did not expect her to not be home, and

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<v Speaker 2>when they saw Holly there, they decided to take out

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<v Speaker 2>their rage and kill her instead.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I guess it could go either way. It could

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<v Speaker 1>be somebody who were targeting the Engelbrechts, or you have Holly, who...

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<v Speaker 1>is 11 years old and potentially there was somebody who

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<v Speaker 1>knew that she would be babysitting, knew that she would

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<v Speaker 1>be alone for a certain amount of time. Because I

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<v Speaker 1>feel like if you're targeting the Engelbrecht to do it

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<v Speaker 1>at that time of the day and to come in

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<v Speaker 1>the home, wouldn't you have at least been watching a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit first? So it sort of leads me to

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<v Speaker 1>believe that Holly was the intended target. But the one

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<v Speaker 1>question mark for me is the photo.

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<v Speaker 2>Why?

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<v Speaker 1>Was it because there was some element of recognition? Was

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<v Speaker 1>it a trophy? Why? I don't understand that angle of it,

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<v Speaker 1>if it was indeed targeted at Holly.

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<v Speaker 2>And they haven't specifically said who was in the photograph,

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<v Speaker 2>if it was Dawn or the entire family or the children,

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<v Speaker 2>but I haven't heard anything about the Engelbrechts having any

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<v Speaker 2>known enemies, like anyone that Dawn had a personal grudge

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<v Speaker 2>with at the time who might have been compelled to

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<v Speaker 2>break into her residence and kill her. But at the

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<v Speaker 2>same time, I don't think it's a coincidence that they

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<v Speaker 2>decided to go in there when Blake, the five-year-old, was

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<v Speaker 2>playing outside. And they seemed to have the wherewithal to

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<v Speaker 2>lock the front door while he was out there to

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<v Speaker 2>ensure that he didn't get back in there. And I

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<v Speaker 2>guess this person might have think that, yes, the two-year-old

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<v Speaker 2>girl is probably not going to put up any resistance,

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<v Speaker 2>but perhaps the little boy might. So that's why I'm

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<v Speaker 2>going to come in when he just happens to be

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<v Speaker 2>playing outside.

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<v Speaker 1>Question. Okay, so... It said that her body was found

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<v Speaker 1>in like the children's rooms and it didn't say specifically,

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<v Speaker 1>but could this potentially have been done in front of

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<v Speaker 1>the two-year-old?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, that's going to be a big point that comes

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<v Speaker 2>up because many years later, the two-year-old is going to

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<v Speaker 2>be asked to testify as a witness. So she was

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<v Speaker 2>definitely in the house when it happened, but it's unclear

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<v Speaker 2>what exactly she saw, if she saw the murder or

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<v Speaker 2>if she saw the killer's face. Because years later, she's

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<v Speaker 2>going to say that she did, but obviously a two-year-old

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<v Speaker 2>is not going to know for certain unless someone is

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<v Speaker 2>coaching them. So they found a broken knife in a

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<v Speaker 2>nearby yard, and they initially suspected it was the murder weapon,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'll be getting back to that point later on.

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<v Speaker 2>And the crime went unsolved for a month and a half,

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<v Speaker 2>but on September the 29th, the police received a tip

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<v Speaker 2>from a man named Ed Martin, who had been an

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<v Speaker 2>inmate at the Lake County Jail, who claimed he had

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<v Speaker 2>recently spoken with another inmate there named Juan Rivera, who

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<v Speaker 2>was a 19-year-old from Puerto Rico who was currently incarcerated

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<v Speaker 2>for stealing a car stereo. apparently Juan had told him

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<v Speaker 2>that on the night of Holly Staker's murder, he was

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<v Speaker 2>at a party at a house that was located near

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<v Speaker 2>the Engelbrecht's residence and might have seen the killer. So

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<v Speaker 2>the police brought in Juan for questioning, and he confirmed that, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>he went to this party and he shared this story

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<v Speaker 2>with Ed Martin, and he said that he had seen

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<v Speaker 2>a man come and go from the party on multiple occasions,

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<v Speaker 2>and the last time he saw him, he looked sweaty

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<v Speaker 2>and out of breath and appeared to have a fresh

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<v Speaker 2>scratch on him. Well, when investigators looked into this lead,

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<v Speaker 2>they discovered that no party had actually taken place at

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<v Speaker 2>this house on this particular evening, so it seemed apparent

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<v Speaker 2>that Juan was lying. And this is a big unanswered

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<v Speaker 2>question in the case, because we're obviously going to find

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<v Speaker 2>out that Juan was innocent and had nothing to do

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<v Speaker 2>with this crime, but just for whatever reason decided to

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<v Speaker 2>flat out make up this story about the party and

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<v Speaker 2>the sweaty man, but he was also a guy with

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<v Speaker 2>a 9th grade education and an IQ of 79, and

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<v Speaker 2>he had a history of mental illness, depression, and even

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<v Speaker 2>some prior suicide attempts, so maybe he's just someone with

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<v Speaker 2>a mindset where he hears about a murder and will

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<v Speaker 2>make up stories about it for just no reason, because

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<v Speaker 2>that's just how his mind functions.

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<v Speaker 1>That's possible, but it's also possible he felt like the

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<v Speaker 1>blame could be put on him for one reason or another,

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<v Speaker 1>and so in order to deflect blame, he conjured up

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<v Speaker 1>this story about this man who was sweaty with a scratch.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly. I mean, there was no known connection between

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<v Speaker 2>the Rivera family and the Engelbrecht family, and as far

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<v Speaker 2>as anyone could tell, he did not know Holly, but

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<v Speaker 2>maybe he just felt, well, there's an unsolved murder that

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<v Speaker 2>took place near where I live, so people are going

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<v Speaker 2>to accuse me, so I'm just going to make up

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<v Speaker 2>this story, but unfortunately it wound up backfiring on him

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<v Speaker 2>in a huge way. So as you may have already guessed,

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<v Speaker 2>because of his low IQ and his mental health issues,

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<v Speaker 2>that he would be susceptible to interrogations, So on October

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<v Speaker 2>the 27th, Juan was brought in for questioning again, and

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<v Speaker 2>over the course of the next four days, he would

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<v Speaker 2>be relentlessly interrogated without the presence of an attorney. He

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<v Speaker 2>was interrogated for a total of 36 hours over the

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<v Speaker 2>course of four days, and his final interrogation lasted 26

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<v Speaker 2>straight hours without any sleep, or without him being able

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<v Speaker 2>to contact attorneys or family members. He was given two

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<v Speaker 2>polygraph tests, but the results were inconclusive, but he eventually

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<v Speaker 2>reached the point where he admitted that yes, He had

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<v Speaker 2>lied about being at the party, but he had nothing

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<v Speaker 2>to do with Holly Staker's murder. But after the 26-hour

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<v Speaker 2>interrogation session shortly before midnight on October the 30th, he

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<v Speaker 2>finally broke down and confessed that he was responsible for

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<v Speaker 2>Holly's murder. But as I'm sure you probably guessed, there's

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<v Speaker 2>going to be problems with this confession.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, who wouldn't at that point in time? Because

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<v Speaker 1>what is real and what is fake? You don't know

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<v Speaker 1>which way is up and which way is down. When

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<v Speaker 1>you've been deprived of sleep, potentially deprived of, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 1>if he was deprived of food and water and bathroom breaks,

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<v Speaker 1>but one can only assume. And I feel like a

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<v Speaker 1>26 hour interrogation is something that would, I feel like

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<v Speaker 1>it would violate the Geneva convention. Don't you think?

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<v Speaker 2>I think it is technically legal because I have seen, uh, issue, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>like other cases like this where people are interrogated for

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<v Speaker 2>like one or two days straight without any sleep, without

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<v Speaker 2>any break. And, uh, I guess it's a matter of

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<v Speaker 2>whether they informed him of his rights ahead of time

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<v Speaker 2>and said that, yes, we haven't charged you with anything yet,

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<v Speaker 2>so you can technically walk out right now or you

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<v Speaker 2>can get a lawyer. But the issue with people like Rivera,

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<v Speaker 2>who have IQs of like 79, is that they just

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<v Speaker 2>do not understand their rights and pretty much figure, well,

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<v Speaker 2>since I'm in here with the police, I can't do

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<v Speaker 2>anything to defend myself. And then they just sit there

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<v Speaker 2>and eventually break down and confess.

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<v Speaker 1>And in 1992, who really understood their rights with regards

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<v Speaker 1>to the police and interrogation? and when it would be

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<v Speaker 1>acceptable to get up and leave. I think his IQ aside,

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<v Speaker 1>I think you would get most people in a similar situation,

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<v Speaker 1>and unless they were very wealthy, with access to attorneys

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<v Speaker 1>who had given them the instructions that if this situation

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<v Speaker 1>were to ever arise, you say, I want my attorney,

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<v Speaker 1>and you stop the interrogation. That's common knowledge today, but

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<v Speaker 1>not in 1992.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, definitely not in 92, because there wasn't as much

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<v Speaker 2>awareness about wrongful convictions and false confessions back then, and

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<v Speaker 2>Juan probably, he definitely was not from a rich family,

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<v Speaker 2>so he figured that, well, I didn't actually commit the crime,

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<v Speaker 2>so even if I confess, they will be able to, like,

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<v Speaker 2>look back and find out that I wasn't the real killer,

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<v Speaker 2>and then I will be free. But unfortunately, it didn't

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<v Speaker 2>work out that way. So this is where it starts

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<v Speaker 2>getting really problematic, because after he made his original confession,

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<v Speaker 2>he was left alone in the interrogation room while the

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<v Speaker 2>detectives started typing out a statement for him to sign,

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<v Speaker 2>but then he started banging his head on the wall

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<v Speaker 2>repeatedly before falling to the floor and curling up into

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<v Speaker 2>a fetal position. He was then transferred to a padded

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<v Speaker 2>cell to be treated by the jail's medical personnel, but

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<v Speaker 2>during this time, a nurse witnessed him pacing back and forth,

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<v Speaker 2>banging his head on the padded wall and pulling out

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<v Speaker 2>clumps of hair, and rambling incoherently. So after this, they

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<v Speaker 2>put him in shackles, and the nurse concluded that he

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<v Speaker 2>was likely having a psychotic episode and had lost all

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<v Speaker 2>touch with reality. But in spite of this, the detectives

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<v Speaker 2>still brought the statement they prepared to Juan, and within

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<v Speaker 2>hours of his initial breakdown, they had him sign it,

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<v Speaker 2>even though he was clearly not in his right state

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<v Speaker 2>of mind.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think it's very clear that law enforcement took

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<v Speaker 1>advantage of his diminished mental capacity. And then they contributed

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<v Speaker 1>to that further by depriving him of basic human rights,

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<v Speaker 1>which would be sleep. And I don't know if he

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<v Speaker 1>was deprived of other things, but I think the fact

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<v Speaker 1>that they interrogated him for 26 hours straight speaks volumes

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<v Speaker 1>to the way that he was treated. So anything that

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<v Speaker 1>anybody signs at that point, I think, would not be

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<v Speaker 1>reliable and should not stand up in court.

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<v Speaker 2>Exactly, and what happened right after this is that the

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<v Speaker 2>police brought his signed statement to the state's attorney's office,

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<v Speaker 2>and there was concern because it had a number of inconsistencies,

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<v Speaker 2>and he provided a number of details which did not

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00:15:00.389 --> 00:15:03.549
<v Speaker 2>match the facts of the crime. So most decent attorneys

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<v Speaker 2>would say that, no, you have to find additional evidence

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<v Speaker 2>besides this confession, or maybe you've got the wrong guy.

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<v Speaker 2>But his mindset was, no, change the statement and make

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<v Speaker 2>sure it starts fitting the facts of the crime, and

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<v Speaker 2>then get him to sign it again. So he was re-interviewed,

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<v Speaker 2>even though at this point he had not slept for

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00:15:19.669 --> 00:15:22.570
<v Speaker 2>over 24 hours, and he was also convinced to sign

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<v Speaker 2>a rights waiver and change several details from his original statement,

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<v Speaker 2>and when the detectives were satisfied that the statement was

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00:15:29.450 --> 00:15:32.029
<v Speaker 2>accurate and a closer fit to the real details of

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00:15:32.049 --> 00:15:35.289
<v Speaker 2>the crime, he signed it again, and shortly thereafter he

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<v Speaker 2>was formally charged with first-degree murder.

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<v Speaker 1>This is just so unfortunate because it's so easy for

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00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:44.740
<v Speaker 1>us to play Monday morning quarterback from a much different

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00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:48.450
<v Speaker 1>position with a greater understanding and just depth and breadth

305
00:15:48.490 --> 00:15:53.909
<v Speaker 1>of knowledge about wrongful convictions, tunnel vision, false confessions, all

306
00:15:53.929 --> 00:15:58.120
<v Speaker 1>of these things that were potentially starting to become a

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00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:01.320
<v Speaker 1>topic of conversation in the 90s, but not to the degree.

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<v Speaker 1>We've seen the fallout in... you know, the 2010s to now, basically,

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00:16:06.830 --> 00:16:11.220
<v Speaker 1>where so many people were freed because of false confessions

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<v Speaker 1>and because of evidence that came to light, and a

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00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:18.399
<v Speaker 1>lot of times because of faulty forensics, or we see

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of cases where this pattern fits, and we

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<v Speaker 1>see plenty of cases where there's still people languishing behind

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<v Speaker 1>bars that are clearly not responsible for the crimes, like

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<v Speaker 1>Tommy Ziegler is one that always comes to mind because

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00:16:30.409 --> 00:16:33.480
<v Speaker 1>it's Robin's pet case, but Florida likes to hold on

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<v Speaker 1>tight to those people and doesn't seem to like to

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<v Speaker 1>admit any wrongdoing or open themselves up to the financial

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<v Speaker 1>ramifications of putting the wrong person behind bars because it

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<v Speaker 1>could cost them millions of dollars. So we're seeing all

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<v Speaker 1>of these red flags here and it's making me upset,

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<v Speaker 1>but it is pretty much par for the course. We've

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<v Speaker 1>seen it a million times.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, and this took place near Chicago in Illinois,

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<v Speaker 2>and I know that Chicago had an extensive history of

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<v Speaker 2>corruption prior to this, prior to 1992, a lot of

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00:17:06.730 --> 00:17:10.180
<v Speaker 2>wrongful convictions based on false confessions. So this was pretty

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00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:12.160
<v Speaker 2>much par for the course, and I like to think

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<v Speaker 2>that there's been a reduction to this, because I think

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<v Speaker 2>that people in law enforcement now feel that we've seen

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<v Speaker 2>so many wrongful convictions get all this exposure and cause

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of backlash. So I'm hoping now that they're realizing, hmm,

333
00:17:23.910 --> 00:17:25.940
<v Speaker 2>we better not try to get a false confession, and

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00:17:25.980 --> 00:17:29.220
<v Speaker 2>if we do, at least find other corroborating evidence, because

335
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:32.779
<v Speaker 2>if there's anything questionable about the conviction, then obviously it's

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00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:35.240
<v Speaker 2>going to come back to haunt us. And with Juan

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00:17:35.259 --> 00:17:38.019
<v Speaker 2>Rivera's case, there's just so many red flags spread about

338
00:17:38.059 --> 00:17:40.640
<v Speaker 2>where it's like you see so many traits that have

339
00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:44.059
<v Speaker 2>come forth again and again in wrongful conviction cases. But

340
00:17:44.099 --> 00:17:46.950
<v Speaker 2>back in 1992, they had like decades of getting away

341
00:17:46.970 --> 00:17:49.049
<v Speaker 2>with this and sending people to prison. So I'm sure

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00:17:49.069 --> 00:17:51.609
<v Speaker 2>they figured, well, we don't have any other evidence besides

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00:17:51.650 --> 00:17:54.039
<v Speaker 2>this questionable confession, but it's still going to work for us.

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<v Speaker 2>So this was one of those confessions where Juan did

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<v Speaker 2>not provide any details about the crime that were not

346
00:18:01.440 --> 00:18:04.970
<v Speaker 2>public knowledge to show that he had been there, and

347
00:18:05.170 --> 00:18:07.269
<v Speaker 2>there were points where police were happy to feed him

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00:18:07.309 --> 00:18:10.990
<v Speaker 2>details in order to fix some of his inaccuracies. Just

349
00:18:11.049 --> 00:18:14.289
<v Speaker 2>as an example, Juan had initially stated that Holly was

350
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<v Speaker 2>wearing a nightgown when he killed her, even though she

351
00:18:16.730 --> 00:18:19.849
<v Speaker 2>was found wearing black stretch pants and a multicolored shirt.

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<v Speaker 2>And when the detectives were helping Juan revise his statement,

353
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<v Speaker 2>they'd say things like, she had a multicolored shirt on, right?

354
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<v Speaker 2>So there they are, feeding him details which are not

355
00:18:28.819 --> 00:18:32.069
<v Speaker 2>public knowledge, which you should withhold just to make sure

356
00:18:32.140 --> 00:18:35.029
<v Speaker 2>that the confession is legitimate. And then he would agree

357
00:18:35.049 --> 00:18:36.869
<v Speaker 2>to the changes, and then they would fix them in

358
00:18:36.910 --> 00:18:40.509
<v Speaker 2>the statement before he signed it. And another big hole

359
00:18:40.630 --> 00:18:43.089
<v Speaker 2>is that he initially claimed that the boy, Blake, was

360
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<v Speaker 2>inside the apartment when he committed the murder, even though

361
00:18:45.809 --> 00:18:48.109
<v Speaker 2>Blake was playing outside at the time and did not

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00:18:48.170 --> 00:18:51.329
<v Speaker 2>return home after the killer was gone. And even though

363
00:18:51.349 --> 00:18:54.470
<v Speaker 2>Holly had been strangled, Juan never made one mention of

364
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<v Speaker 2>this during the course of his interrogations because that was

365
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<v Speaker 2>one of the details they withheld from the public, and

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<v Speaker 2>not once during, like, all these hours of interrogation did

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<v Speaker 2>he volunteer that information.

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<v Speaker 1>It's so wild to me. All of these inconsistencies, things

369
00:19:09.829 --> 00:19:13.930
<v Speaker 1>that would be holdback information because of guilt knowledge, the

370
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<v Speaker 1>quote-unquote real killer that you guys have here and you're

371
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<v Speaker 1>about to throw behind bars, he doesn't know these things.

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<v Speaker 1>So my question that I always have in these cases is,

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<v Speaker 1>did law enforcement know that he wasn't the guy and

374
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<v Speaker 1>they're still trying to fit a square peg in a

375
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<v Speaker 1>round hole because, like we always talk about, juking the stats.

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<v Speaker 1>When you have a killer of an 11-year-old girl who

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<v Speaker 1>was babysitting a 5-year-old and a 2-year-old, you have a

378
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:44.130
<v Speaker 1>community who is terrified. So what do you want to do?

379
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<v Speaker 1>Is you want to serve up that killer on a

380
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<v Speaker 1>silver platter and you want to say, you have no

381
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<v Speaker 1>reason to fear. because they're going to be getting pressure

382
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<v Speaker 1>from politicians, from the mayor, from the police commissioner, from

383
00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:00.220
<v Speaker 1>all of these people. So did you know that he

384
00:20:00.259 --> 00:20:03.720
<v Speaker 1>was the wrong guy? Or did you believe that he

385
00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:05.940
<v Speaker 1>was the right guy and he just wasn't very smart

386
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:08.279
<v Speaker 1>so he didn't have the details or he didn't remember

387
00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:11.779
<v Speaker 1>accurately and that's why you're feeding him the information? Because

388
00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:14.700
<v Speaker 1>to me, intent, when it comes to the way that

389
00:20:14.720 --> 00:20:15.920
<v Speaker 1>they proceeded, matters.

390
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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because I have seen other cases where after they

391
00:20:19.869 --> 00:20:22.970
<v Speaker 2>charge the suspect, they do everything in their power not to...

392
00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:25.920
<v Speaker 2>admit that they were wrong and keep them in prison

393
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<v Speaker 2>no matter what. But you get the sense that, at

394
00:20:29.130 --> 00:20:31.869
<v Speaker 2>the outset at least, they initially believed that they got

395
00:20:31.910 --> 00:20:34.559
<v Speaker 2>the right guy. But I'm not entirely sure that's the

396
00:20:34.579 --> 00:20:37.000
<v Speaker 2>case here. I think it's the situation you described where

397
00:20:37.019 --> 00:20:40.220
<v Speaker 2>there was so much pressure... from the community to solve

398
00:20:40.259 --> 00:20:42.440
<v Speaker 2>this case, and they probably didn't have any solid leads,

399
00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:44.200
<v Speaker 2>but then they're told, hey, there's a guy who's in

400
00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:47.900
<v Speaker 2>jail for another crime who supposedly made these incriminating statements

401
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:50.279
<v Speaker 2>and lied about being at a party that night. He

402
00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:52.400
<v Speaker 2>must be the guy, and then they're just going to

403
00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:55.079
<v Speaker 2>interrogate him and interrogate him until he finally tells them

404
00:20:55.140 --> 00:20:57.539
<v Speaker 2>what they want to hear. But of course, the big

405
00:20:57.599 --> 00:20:59.589
<v Speaker 2>issue with the confession is that they could not find

406
00:20:59.700 --> 00:21:02.509
<v Speaker 2>any other corroborating evidence to prove that he did it,

407
00:21:02.630 --> 00:21:05.970
<v Speaker 2>because he willingly provided samples of his blood and hair

408
00:21:06.029 --> 00:21:08.680
<v Speaker 2>to investigators, but they did not match any of the

409
00:21:08.700 --> 00:21:10.859
<v Speaker 2>physical evidence from the murder scene, and they could not

410
00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:15.119
<v Speaker 2>find any of Juan's fingerprints in the house. This was 1992,

411
00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:17.609
<v Speaker 2>and DNA testing was still in its infancy, so they

412
00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:20.349
<v Speaker 2>didn't use it at this point, though they would use

413
00:21:20.390 --> 00:21:24.450
<v Speaker 2>it later. And not only that, but Juan's father and

414
00:21:24.490 --> 00:21:27.509
<v Speaker 2>his girlfriend provided him with an alibi and confirmed he

415
00:21:27.549 --> 00:21:31.019
<v Speaker 2>was home the entire evening. Now, obviously, if it's the

416
00:21:31.099 --> 00:21:33.529
<v Speaker 2>defendant's family, then you have to take the alibi with

417
00:21:33.569 --> 00:21:36.210
<v Speaker 2>a grain of salt, but on that particular night, Juan's

418
00:21:36.269 --> 00:21:39.529
<v Speaker 2>mother was visiting a relative in Puerto Rico and called

419
00:21:39.549 --> 00:21:41.769
<v Speaker 2>the residence and claimed that she spoke to Juan on

420
00:21:41.789 --> 00:21:44.650
<v Speaker 2>the phone for about 20 minutes, and they checked phone

421
00:21:44.690 --> 00:21:47.599
<v Speaker 2>records and confirmed that, yes, a call from Puerto Rico

422
00:21:47.660 --> 00:21:49.819
<v Speaker 2>did go into the house on that particular night.

423
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:54.200
<v Speaker 1>It's just not adding up with Juan. Like, it would

424
00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:56.880
<v Speaker 1>be so convenient if he were the guy. You've got

425
00:21:56.920 --> 00:21:59.500
<v Speaker 1>somebody who's clearly already got a criminal record and he's

426
00:21:59.539 --> 00:22:02.619
<v Speaker 1>in prison and he's making up this story. And then

427
00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:06.109
<v Speaker 1>there's this false confession or they probably aren't saying it's

428
00:22:06.150 --> 00:22:08.630
<v Speaker 1>a false confession. They're probably saying he confessed, he broke.

429
00:22:09.369 --> 00:22:12.630
<v Speaker 1>And maybe they truly believe that that happened. But everything

430
00:22:12.670 --> 00:22:15.589
<v Speaker 1>that we're seeing is showing us that this isn't the guy.

431
00:22:16.049 --> 00:22:20.420
<v Speaker 1>But that is an inconvenient truth, right? Because if Juan's

432
00:22:20.460 --> 00:22:24.119
<v Speaker 1>not the guy, then who is the guy? You've got

433
00:22:24.180 --> 00:22:27.779
<v Speaker 1>no evidence to support any other perpetrator that we know

434
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:31.279
<v Speaker 1>of because you focused your energies on Juan. So even

435
00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:35.240
<v Speaker 1>if there were other leads or other potential suspects, you

436
00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:38.750
<v Speaker 1>poured all of your energy into Juan and him being

437
00:22:39.009 --> 00:22:44.670
<v Speaker 1>the guy. And so that gives the potential perpetrator time

438
00:22:44.769 --> 00:22:48.250
<v Speaker 1>to regroup, recalibrate, and reoffend.

439
00:22:49.509 --> 00:22:51.690
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like, I think at that point they just had

440
00:22:51.769 --> 00:22:54.430
<v Speaker 2>no other suspects, but I imagine putting myself into the

441
00:22:54.470 --> 00:22:56.410
<v Speaker 2>shoes of a real killer, and you find out that

442
00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:59.259
<v Speaker 2>someone has been arrested for your crime, you're just going

443
00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:01.240
<v Speaker 2>to think to themselves, wow, this was so easy to

444
00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:03.480
<v Speaker 2>get away with it, it's pretty much open season, I

445
00:23:03.500 --> 00:23:06.039
<v Speaker 2>can probably go harm someone else, because I know that

446
00:23:06.059 --> 00:23:08.829
<v Speaker 2>the police are no longer looking for me. So the

447
00:23:08.869 --> 00:23:11.549
<v Speaker 2>next part I'm going to share is absolutely ridiculous, and

448
00:23:11.589 --> 00:23:13.789
<v Speaker 2>this is the point when they should have decided, this

449
00:23:13.849 --> 00:23:15.970
<v Speaker 2>is the wrong guy, we should drop the charges right

450
00:23:16.069 --> 00:23:19.500
<v Speaker 2>now and start over. So I mentioned that Juan was

451
00:23:19.579 --> 00:23:22.279
<v Speaker 2>in jail because he had been arrested for stealing a

452
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:26.250
<v Speaker 2>car stereo, and he initially was given probation, but because

453
00:23:26.289 --> 00:23:29.029
<v Speaker 2>he wound up violating the probation, he was sent back

454
00:23:29.069 --> 00:23:31.690
<v Speaker 2>to jail, and that's where he made those incriminating statements.

455
00:23:32.190 --> 00:23:34.410
<v Speaker 2>But before this happened, one of the conditions of his

456
00:23:34.450 --> 00:23:37.529
<v Speaker 2>probation was that he had to wear an electronic ankle

457
00:23:37.569 --> 00:23:41.230
<v Speaker 2>monitor and was sentenced to home confinement. And guess what?

458
00:23:41.309 --> 00:23:44.490
<v Speaker 2>They checked electronic monitoring system records, and they showed that

459
00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:47.519
<v Speaker 2>this ankle monitor was was home the entire night of

460
00:23:47.619 --> 00:23:51.819
<v Speaker 2>August the 17th when Holly's murder took place. So obviously,

461
00:23:52.180 --> 00:23:54.539
<v Speaker 2>even though Juan had lied about attending a party that night,

462
00:23:54.660 --> 00:23:57.170
<v Speaker 2>here was convincing evidence to show that he was at

463
00:23:57.250 --> 00:24:01.210
<v Speaker 2>home the entire time and wasn't anywhere near the residence

464
00:24:01.269 --> 00:24:05.369
<v Speaker 2>where Holly was killed. But he actually, like, questioned Juan

465
00:24:05.410 --> 00:24:07.829
<v Speaker 2>about this, and he initially claimed that he had unplugged

466
00:24:07.869 --> 00:24:10.849
<v Speaker 2>his ankle monitor, took it off, then went to the

467
00:24:10.930 --> 00:24:14.069
<v Speaker 2>Engelbrecht's apartment to kill Holly, and then came back and

468
00:24:14.109 --> 00:24:16.789
<v Speaker 2>put it back on before anyone noticed, but that's not

469
00:24:16.829 --> 00:24:19.569
<v Speaker 2>how ankle monitors work. They're designed so that they will

470
00:24:19.609 --> 00:24:21.950
<v Speaker 2>alert the police if you try to take them off

471
00:24:22.019 --> 00:24:24.579
<v Speaker 2>or you sabotage them, so then the police change their

472
00:24:24.619 --> 00:24:27.019
<v Speaker 2>tune and says, oh, it must have malfunctioned that night,

473
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:28.819
<v Speaker 2>and then he took it off and put it back on,

474
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:31.279
<v Speaker 2>and it started working again before anyone noticed.

475
00:24:32.390 --> 00:24:36.430
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so like just for convenience sake, the one night

476
00:24:36.450 --> 00:24:39.450
<v Speaker 1>that he decides to do that, it's a malfunction. It's

477
00:24:39.470 --> 00:24:42.549
<v Speaker 1>like when cameras conveniently don't work. But my mind went

478
00:24:42.569 --> 00:24:45.450
<v Speaker 1>to exactly what you said. I was literally going to say,

479
00:24:45.579 --> 00:24:49.410
<v Speaker 1>that's not how ankle monitors work. It's not like you

480
00:24:49.450 --> 00:24:51.579
<v Speaker 1>put it on a criminal and then they've got the

481
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:53.980
<v Speaker 1>ability to unplug it and plug it back in as

482
00:24:54.059 --> 00:24:58.220
<v Speaker 1>they see fit. That would completely defeat the whole purpose

483
00:24:58.339 --> 00:25:00.640
<v Speaker 1>of being able to track somebody 24 hours a day.

484
00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:05.259
<v Speaker 1>seven days a week. There's no time off so you

485
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:08.119
<v Speaker 1>can just unplug it. It's not like this leisure time

486
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:11.480
<v Speaker 1>you get. And we also know that Juan has an

487
00:25:11.609 --> 00:25:14.609
<v Speaker 1>IQ of 79. So I'm going to go out on

488
00:25:14.630 --> 00:25:17.470
<v Speaker 1>a limb here and say Juan's not a tech genius,

489
00:25:18.089 --> 00:25:21.289
<v Speaker 1>and I just don't see him being able to circumvent

490
00:25:21.950 --> 00:25:25.609
<v Speaker 1>the functionality of an ankle monitor. And it feels like

491
00:25:25.670 --> 00:25:28.650
<v Speaker 1>law enforcement jumped in here and was like, okay, we

492
00:25:28.690 --> 00:25:30.970
<v Speaker 1>need to come up with a plan for why this

493
00:25:31.150 --> 00:25:33.950
<v Speaker 1>isn't good evidence. Okay, it just, it malfunctioned and he

494
00:25:33.990 --> 00:25:36.750
<v Speaker 1>went off and, you know, committed this murder and then

495
00:25:36.809 --> 00:25:40.380
<v Speaker 1>came back. And it's like, again, you're now just trying

496
00:25:40.430 --> 00:25:44.119
<v Speaker 1>to make this evidence, which should be pretty rock solid,

497
00:25:44.680 --> 00:25:47.180
<v Speaker 1>that he could not have been in two places at once.

498
00:25:47.299 --> 00:25:50.259
<v Speaker 1>The ankle monitor that is supposedly malfunctioning is saying that

499
00:25:50.299 --> 00:25:53.650
<v Speaker 1>he's at home. So is it not working? Because if

500
00:25:53.710 --> 00:25:57.089
<v Speaker 1>it's really malfunctioning, wouldn't we just see it not work

501
00:25:57.150 --> 00:26:00.029
<v Speaker 1>or not track Juan? But again, it's saying he's there.

502
00:26:00.589 --> 00:26:03.210
<v Speaker 1>So I'm just confused with this explanation, and I think

503
00:26:03.269 --> 00:26:06.549
<v Speaker 1>they're confused with how to exactly make this fit into

504
00:26:06.589 --> 00:26:07.190
<v Speaker 1>their story.

505
00:26:07.210 --> 00:26:09.990
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it seems like a thing where we charge him

506
00:26:10.009 --> 00:26:12.190
<v Speaker 2>with the crime after making the confession, but we don't

507
00:26:12.230 --> 00:26:14.319
<v Speaker 2>do our research to make sure that this case will

508
00:26:14.339 --> 00:26:16.579
<v Speaker 2>stand up. And once they realize, oh, he was wearing

509
00:26:16.599 --> 00:26:19.559
<v Speaker 2>an ankle monitor that evening, and records show that he

510
00:26:19.619 --> 00:26:21.519
<v Speaker 2>was at home the entire night, how are we going

511
00:26:21.539 --> 00:26:24.210
<v Speaker 2>to make this fit our narrative? And I'm sure there

512
00:26:24.289 --> 00:26:27.190
<v Speaker 2>are documented cases of criminals who've been able to circumvent

513
00:26:27.230 --> 00:26:29.710
<v Speaker 2>these things and take them off without sending an alert

514
00:26:29.750 --> 00:26:32.029
<v Speaker 2>to the police, but like you said, Juan has an

515
00:26:32.150 --> 00:26:34.819
<v Speaker 2>IQ of 79, so I don't think he's going to

516
00:26:34.859 --> 00:26:37.920
<v Speaker 2>be able to do something that sophisticated without setting the

517
00:26:37.980 --> 00:26:42.000
<v Speaker 2>ankle monitor off. So before Juan's trial was going to

518
00:26:42.059 --> 00:26:44.740
<v Speaker 2>take place, his defense team were surprised to be informed

519
00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:47.890
<v Speaker 2>by the prosecution that there might be physical evidence against

520
00:26:47.950 --> 00:26:50.990
<v Speaker 2>him after all. because shortly after he was sent to

521
00:26:51.029 --> 00:26:54.539
<v Speaker 2>the Lake County Jail for his probation violation, a wand

522
00:26:54.579 --> 00:26:57.079
<v Speaker 2>had apparently traded a pair of his sneakers to another

523
00:26:57.160 --> 00:27:00.579
<v Speaker 2>inmate in exchange for a TV set, and the inmate

524
00:27:00.619 --> 00:27:02.940
<v Speaker 2>later turned the shoes over to the police, and they

525
00:27:02.980 --> 00:27:05.920
<v Speaker 2>discovered that there was blood on them, which the authorities

526
00:27:05.940 --> 00:27:09.019
<v Speaker 2>were convinced belonged to Holly. So this seemed like pretty

527
00:27:09.059 --> 00:27:12.809
<v Speaker 2>incriminating evidence, but the defense conducted their own investigation and

528
00:27:13.089 --> 00:27:17.150
<v Speaker 2>discovered that, yes, the shoes did belong to Juan, but

529
00:27:17.190 --> 00:27:20.509
<v Speaker 2>they were not actually purchased until weeks after Holly's murder

530
00:27:20.549 --> 00:27:23.009
<v Speaker 2>took place. They got a defense investigator to get a

531
00:27:23.089 --> 00:27:26.589
<v Speaker 2>record to show that Juan's mother had purchased the sneakers

532
00:27:26.630 --> 00:27:29.690
<v Speaker 2>from a Walmart and given them to them. And not

533
00:27:29.730 --> 00:27:32.960
<v Speaker 2>only that, but this particular brand of sneakers was manufactured

534
00:27:32.980 --> 00:27:36.119
<v Speaker 2>in Hong Kong and was not even available for sale

535
00:27:36.200 --> 00:27:38.920
<v Speaker 2>in the United States at the time of Holly's murder.

536
00:27:39.299 --> 00:27:41.720
<v Speaker 2>At that particular point, they would have been in a

537
00:27:41.819 --> 00:27:46.849
<v Speaker 2>warehouse in California awaiting delivery to regional distribution centers. where

538
00:27:46.869 --> 00:27:49.829
<v Speaker 2>they would be sold in stores, so they're thinking to themselves, okay,

539
00:27:49.869 --> 00:27:53.069
<v Speaker 2>how come this blood from Holly conveniently got on these sneakers,

540
00:27:53.450 --> 00:27:55.789
<v Speaker 2>when now we know it would have been physically impossible

541
00:27:55.829 --> 00:27:58.089
<v Speaker 2>to want a wand to wear these sneakers on the

542
00:27:58.130 --> 00:28:00.190
<v Speaker 2>night of the crime, since he did not even own

543
00:28:00.210 --> 00:28:00.589
<v Speaker 2>them yet?

544
00:28:02.049 --> 00:28:04.349
<v Speaker 1>It feels like every piece of their case is falling

545
00:28:04.410 --> 00:28:08.349
<v Speaker 1>apart right now, and it's egregious to think that they

546
00:28:08.390 --> 00:28:11.799
<v Speaker 1>would continue to persevere. I guess this is just what

547
00:28:11.950 --> 00:28:15.009
<v Speaker 1>the definition of tunnel vision is. Either they are so

548
00:28:15.089 --> 00:28:17.470
<v Speaker 1>steadfast in their conviction that he did it that they

549
00:28:17.529 --> 00:28:23.069
<v Speaker 1>are willing to overlook evidence like the ankle monitor, like

550
00:28:23.130 --> 00:28:26.349
<v Speaker 1>the sneakers, that he could not have worn them. It's

551
00:28:26.410 --> 00:28:30.329
<v Speaker 1>not like there was online shopping in 1992, right? It

552
00:28:30.369 --> 00:28:32.519
<v Speaker 1>wasn't like you were going to order these sneakers from

553
00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:34.599
<v Speaker 1>Asia where they were maybe available and you could have

554
00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:37.740
<v Speaker 1>received them earlier than you would have in the United States.

555
00:28:38.180 --> 00:28:40.559
<v Speaker 1>If they weren't available in the United States at that

556
00:28:40.640 --> 00:28:44.329
<v Speaker 1>point in time, then you weren't wearing them, unless you

557
00:28:44.369 --> 00:28:48.720
<v Speaker 1>had gone overseas, flown, and purchased them there, and then

558
00:28:48.759 --> 00:28:51.519
<v Speaker 1>brought them back, which I do not believe was the

559
00:28:51.539 --> 00:28:55.779
<v Speaker 1>case with Juan, because of his socioeconomic status. This was

560
00:28:55.839 --> 00:28:59.640
<v Speaker 1>not a rich individual, and to be flying overseas would

561
00:28:59.680 --> 00:29:03.589
<v Speaker 1>have been a more expensive endeavor in 1992.

562
00:29:03.589 --> 00:29:05.970
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and he was also on probation wearing an ankle monitor,

563
00:29:06.009 --> 00:29:08.569
<v Speaker 2>so he's obviously not flying overseas to Hong Kong in

564
00:29:08.630 --> 00:29:12.019
<v Speaker 2>order to purchase shoes. So when the defense team said

565
00:29:12.059 --> 00:29:14.460
<v Speaker 2>that they were going to call it imported to testify

566
00:29:14.509 --> 00:29:17.009
<v Speaker 2>that these sneakers would not have been available for purchase

567
00:29:17.049 --> 00:29:19.049
<v Speaker 2>at the time of the murder, lo and behold, the

568
00:29:19.089 --> 00:29:21.150
<v Speaker 2>prosecution decides, oh, you know what, we're not going to

569
00:29:21.190 --> 00:29:24.089
<v Speaker 2>introduce these sneakers as evidence in the trial after all.

570
00:29:24.849 --> 00:29:27.269
<v Speaker 2>And at the time, there was an assumption that, okay,

571
00:29:27.309 --> 00:29:30.549
<v Speaker 2>maybe this blood on there was for a completely unrelated reason.

572
00:29:30.690 --> 00:29:33.130
<v Speaker 2>But then many years later, they did some DNA testing

573
00:29:33.170 --> 00:29:35.690
<v Speaker 2>on the blood and found out that it belonged to

574
00:29:36.109 --> 00:29:39.609
<v Speaker 2>Holly Staker. And of course, obviously, Juan was not wearing

575
00:29:39.630 --> 00:29:42.069
<v Speaker 2>these sneakers. when he killed her So the only way

576
00:29:42.109 --> 00:29:44.349
<v Speaker 2>that Holly's blood could have wound up on the sneakers

577
00:29:44.430 --> 00:29:47.089
<v Speaker 2>is if someone planted it there. So this is getting

578
00:29:47.109 --> 00:29:50.170
<v Speaker 2>into a case where it's not just like an innocent

579
00:29:50.190 --> 00:29:52.980
<v Speaker 2>wrongful conviction where they got the wrong guy but believe

580
00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:55.799
<v Speaker 2>they were right. This shows that someone is planting evidence

581
00:29:55.839 --> 00:29:58.480
<v Speaker 2>to try to frame an innocent man. And let's just

582
00:29:58.519 --> 00:30:01.220
<v Speaker 2>say that Juan was incredibly lucky that they were able

583
00:30:01.240 --> 00:30:03.920
<v Speaker 2>to find records that he did not purchase those sneakers

584
00:30:04.059 --> 00:30:07.049
<v Speaker 2>until after the murder. Because otherwise, if he had purchased

585
00:30:07.069 --> 00:30:09.630
<v Speaker 2>them beforehand and they found Holly's blood on there, how

586
00:30:09.650 --> 00:30:11.150
<v Speaker 2>could they prove that it was planted?

587
00:30:12.740 --> 00:30:16.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he got very lucky. We probably wouldn't be talking

588
00:30:16.460 --> 00:30:20.819
<v Speaker 1>about his wrongful conviction if they had been available in

589
00:30:20.839 --> 00:30:24.099
<v Speaker 1>the US at that time period and Holly's blood was

590
00:30:24.180 --> 00:30:26.869
<v Speaker 1>found on them. It would be really, really difficult for

591
00:30:26.890 --> 00:30:29.319
<v Speaker 1>Juan to walk his way out of that one. even

592
00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:33.029
<v Speaker 1>though there's evidence to the contrary, such as the ankle

593
00:30:33.049 --> 00:30:36.789
<v Speaker 1>monitor evidence, which makes it look as though Juan could

594
00:30:36.829 --> 00:30:39.130
<v Speaker 1>not have been there, and also the confession, where he

595
00:30:40.069 --> 00:30:43.789
<v Speaker 1>wasn't able to accurately recall what Holly was wearing, or

596
00:30:43.950 --> 00:30:48.619
<v Speaker 1>even bring up the method by which he supposedly decided

597
00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:51.900
<v Speaker 1>to murder her, which would have been strangulation. So, I'm

598
00:30:52.180 --> 00:30:55.660
<v Speaker 1>just so thankful that in a case where we have

599
00:30:55.700 --> 00:30:59.049
<v Speaker 1>a wrongful conviction and so many things are overlooked, that

600
00:30:59.289 --> 00:31:01.130
<v Speaker 1>there seems to be a little bit of luck on

601
00:31:01.150 --> 00:31:05.289
<v Speaker 1>Juan's side with regards to just this small timeline of

602
00:31:05.349 --> 00:31:08.349
<v Speaker 1>a few months, like these sneakers were not available, so

603
00:31:08.430 --> 00:31:11.630
<v Speaker 1>he couldn't have had Holly's blood on these sneakers.

604
00:31:12.349 --> 00:31:14.549
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and unfortunately, after all these years, it would be

605
00:31:14.589 --> 00:31:18.019
<v Speaker 2>impossible to prove who planted the blood, but obviously the

606
00:31:18.059 --> 00:31:20.339
<v Speaker 2>fact that there's no way these sneakers were anywhere near

607
00:31:20.359 --> 00:31:23.380
<v Speaker 2>the crime scene shows that someone in law enforcement did that,

608
00:31:23.500 --> 00:31:26.039
<v Speaker 2>and that they obviously knew that they were incarcerating an

609
00:31:26.099 --> 00:31:29.220
<v Speaker 2>innocent man and had to fabricate new evidence by any

610
00:31:29.259 --> 00:31:29.960
<v Speaker 2>means possible.

611
00:31:30.599 --> 00:31:33.019
<v Speaker 1>Or do you think that it could have been the

612
00:31:33.059 --> 00:31:36.920
<v Speaker 1>real killer, and the real killer could have potentially actually

613
00:31:37.009 --> 00:31:40.750
<v Speaker 1>worn the sneakers, and then planted them after the fact?

614
00:31:41.650 --> 00:31:43.769
<v Speaker 2>Probably not, because they were able to establish that they

615
00:31:43.789 --> 00:31:45.730
<v Speaker 2>were in a warehouse in California on the night of

616
00:31:45.750 --> 00:31:47.509
<v Speaker 2>the murder, so I don't think the real killer could

617
00:31:47.549 --> 00:31:49.250
<v Speaker 2>have had access to them at that time.

618
00:31:49.809 --> 00:31:52.099
<v Speaker 1>Okay, that definitely makes it an impossibility.

619
00:31:52.690 --> 00:31:56.549
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely. So Juan finally went on trial over a

620
00:31:56.589 --> 00:31:59.799
<v Speaker 2>year later in November of 1993, and of course, other

621
00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:02.759
<v Speaker 2>than his confession, there was no other real evidence against him,

622
00:32:03.180 --> 00:32:06.960
<v Speaker 2>so the prosecution had to introduce another questionable tactic, and

623
00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:10.039
<v Speaker 2>that was a jailhouse informant, which you often find are

624
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:12.880
<v Speaker 2>done out of desperation when the evidence is not that strong.

625
00:32:13.660 --> 00:32:15.700
<v Speaker 2>One of them was a guy named Frank McDonald, who

626
00:32:15.759 --> 00:32:18.779
<v Speaker 2>claimed that while he was serving time in Thloit County

627
00:32:18.819 --> 00:32:21.880
<v Speaker 2>Jail on the burglary charge for stealing the car stereo,

628
00:32:22.650 --> 00:32:25.799
<v Speaker 2>Juan had made some incriminating statements that he was responsible

629
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:28.579
<v Speaker 2>for Holly's murder. But of course, it turned out that

630
00:32:28.619 --> 00:32:32.180
<v Speaker 2>McDonald was questioned by investigators shortly after Juan's arrest and

631
00:32:32.220 --> 00:32:35.119
<v Speaker 2>initially said something like this, but then three days later,

632
00:32:35.500 --> 00:32:38.380
<v Speaker 2>he approached investigators again and said that, oh, by the way,

633
00:32:38.500 --> 00:32:41.130
<v Speaker 2>I did hear Juan confess, and can you help me

634
00:32:41.170 --> 00:32:44.069
<v Speaker 2>with the sentence that I'm currently serving right now? And

635
00:32:44.109 --> 00:32:48.250
<v Speaker 2>they found evidence that McDonald had attempted to sell information

636
00:32:48.349 --> 00:32:52.190
<v Speaker 2>about Juan's so-called confession to a reporter from the Chicago Tribune,

637
00:32:52.589 --> 00:32:55.109
<v Speaker 2>before he even approached the police, so obviously he was

638
00:32:55.170 --> 00:32:58.730
<v Speaker 2>a very questionable witness. But this is 1993, and of

639
00:32:58.789 --> 00:33:00.829
<v Speaker 2>course the general public isn't going to have as much

640
00:33:00.890 --> 00:33:05.009
<v Speaker 2>knowledge about false confessions and jailhouse informants, so they believe

641
00:33:05.029 --> 00:33:07.710
<v Speaker 2>that this was enough evidence to find Juan guilty, and

642
00:33:07.750 --> 00:33:11.349
<v Speaker 2>he was sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.

643
00:33:12.990 --> 00:33:17.230
<v Speaker 1>Given the evidence that they have, and just everything related

644
00:33:17.259 --> 00:33:20.069
<v Speaker 1>to this case, I feel like so much has to

645
00:33:20.109 --> 00:33:24.390
<v Speaker 1>come down to the jury at the time in 1992,

646
00:33:24.390 --> 00:33:27.410
<v Speaker 1>believing that why would you confess to something that you

647
00:33:27.450 --> 00:33:31.420
<v Speaker 1>didn't commit? Because I think it's easy to almost like

648
00:33:31.500 --> 00:33:34.339
<v Speaker 1>disregard everything else. And it's like, if this person themselves

649
00:33:34.539 --> 00:33:38.279
<v Speaker 1>is saying that they indeed are guilty of the murder

650
00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:42.259
<v Speaker 1>of Holly, then we should believe him. Because the sentiment

651
00:33:42.359 --> 00:33:45.240
<v Speaker 1>about false confessions just wasn't out there with the public

652
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:45.759
<v Speaker 1>at the time.

653
00:33:46.700 --> 00:33:49.339
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly. Like, there's so many wrongful convictions where I

654
00:33:49.380 --> 00:33:52.079
<v Speaker 2>look at them from today's perspective, and I ask myself,

655
00:33:52.380 --> 00:33:54.400
<v Speaker 2>how could the jury have believed this scenario? How could

656
00:33:54.420 --> 00:33:57.089
<v Speaker 2>they find the defendant guilty? But then I'm thinking, back

657
00:33:57.160 --> 00:34:00.230
<v Speaker 2>in 1993, I didn't have knowledge about false confessions or

658
00:34:00.269 --> 00:34:02.009
<v Speaker 2>any of this stuff. So if I was on the jury,

659
00:34:02.130 --> 00:34:04.730
<v Speaker 2>I might have believed it too. Because back then, people

660
00:34:04.769 --> 00:34:07.369
<v Speaker 2>just couldn't grasp the concept that you would confess to

661
00:34:07.410 --> 00:34:09.190
<v Speaker 2>a crime that you did not commit if you were

662
00:34:09.230 --> 00:34:10.010
<v Speaker 2>completely innocent.

663
00:34:10.710 --> 00:34:12.710
<v Speaker 1>I remember, I believe it was like on an episode

664
00:34:12.730 --> 00:34:14.750
<v Speaker 1>of Forensic Files or something. It could have been like

665
00:34:14.789 --> 00:34:18.099
<v Speaker 1>City Confidential. I remember one of those early true crime shows,

666
00:34:18.619 --> 00:34:22.280
<v Speaker 1>watching it, and this probably would have been when I

667
00:34:22.300 --> 00:34:27.760
<v Speaker 1>was a teenager in the late 90s, and thinking, why

668
00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:30.699
<v Speaker 1>would somebody say that they committed a crime that they didn't?

669
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:34.780
<v Speaker 1>And believing that if somebody confessed to something, that they

670
00:34:34.860 --> 00:34:37.969
<v Speaker 1>had to have indeed done that thing. And of course,

671
00:34:38.030 --> 00:34:41.309
<v Speaker 1>my perspective changed when I had access to more information,

672
00:34:41.369 --> 00:34:43.630
<v Speaker 1>but I do think that that would have been a

673
00:34:43.670 --> 00:34:45.369
<v Speaker 1>really popular sentiment at the time.

674
00:34:46.409 --> 00:34:48.750
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I seem to believe that my perspective on this

675
00:34:48.829 --> 00:34:51.550
<v Speaker 2>changed from a case featured on Unsolved Mysteries about a

676
00:34:51.579 --> 00:34:54.500
<v Speaker 2>guy named Johnny Lee Wilson who was wrongly convicted for

677
00:34:54.739 --> 00:34:57.480
<v Speaker 2>making a false confession because much like Juan, he had

678
00:34:57.500 --> 00:35:00.409
<v Speaker 2>a low IQ, he had a number of developmental disabilities.

679
00:35:00.820 --> 00:35:03.219
<v Speaker 2>And the police took him into the station and says,

680
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:04.679
<v Speaker 2>if you just tell us you did it, we'll let

681
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:06.969
<v Speaker 2>you go home. And he had the mindset to believe it.

682
00:35:07.590 --> 00:35:09.750
<v Speaker 2>I believe we did a couple episodes about this case

683
00:35:09.789 --> 00:35:11.969
<v Speaker 2>like a couple years ago. And this was a real

684
00:35:12.130 --> 00:35:14.269
<v Speaker 2>eye-opening one for me because I would have been in

685
00:35:14.309 --> 00:35:16.980
<v Speaker 2>my teens when I saw it on TV. And I realized, oh,

686
00:35:17.420 --> 00:35:20.000
<v Speaker 2>now I can see why people can be manipulated into

687
00:35:20.039 --> 00:35:24.650
<v Speaker 2>confessing to crimes they did not commit. So Awan's defense

688
00:35:24.670 --> 00:35:27.690
<v Speaker 2>team did appeal his conviction, and because the trial was

689
00:35:27.730 --> 00:35:30.789
<v Speaker 2>filled with a number of procedural errors, the Illinois Appellate

690
00:35:30.829 --> 00:35:34.130
<v Speaker 2>Court decided to overturn the conviction, and Awan was granted

691
00:35:34.190 --> 00:35:37.889
<v Speaker 2>a second trial in 1998. So once again, the prime

692
00:35:37.949 --> 00:35:41.030
<v Speaker 2>evidence against him was his own confession, but the original

693
00:35:41.070 --> 00:35:45.179
<v Speaker 2>jailhouse informant Frank McDonald was unavailable to testify at the retrial,

694
00:35:45.670 --> 00:35:49.219
<v Speaker 2>but the prosecution was allowed to read his transcribed statements

695
00:35:49.239 --> 00:35:52.420
<v Speaker 2>to the jury, and lo and behold, they produced another

696
00:35:52.539 --> 00:35:57.440
<v Speaker 2>jailhouse informant named David Crespo. So after Juan's conviction was overturned,

697
00:35:57.500 --> 00:35:59.590
<v Speaker 2>he had been transferred to the Lake County Jail to

698
00:35:59.619 --> 00:36:03.530
<v Speaker 2>await trial and became friends with Crespo, and claimed that

699
00:36:03.650 --> 00:36:06.809
<v Speaker 2>after they took a Spanish Bible class together, he overheard

700
00:36:06.849 --> 00:36:10.010
<v Speaker 2>Juan say that he had quote-unquote killed that little girl.

701
00:36:10.650 --> 00:36:13.570
<v Speaker 2>But it would later turn out that Crespo was released

702
00:36:13.590 --> 00:36:15.920
<v Speaker 2>from jail a short time later, and because he had

703
00:36:15.940 --> 00:36:19.500
<v Speaker 2>become friends with Juan, his family generously decided to take

704
00:36:19.539 --> 00:36:23.159
<v Speaker 2>him into their home. But he started using drugs, so

705
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:25.659
<v Speaker 2>Juan's family kicked them out, and then lo and behold,

706
00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:28.090
<v Speaker 2>he got arrested again and was facing sentencing on a

707
00:36:28.110 --> 00:36:30.969
<v Speaker 2>parole violation, and that's when he came forward with this

708
00:36:31.010 --> 00:36:33.989
<v Speaker 2>story about having heard Juan confess to the crime. But

709
00:36:34.369 --> 00:36:37.130
<v Speaker 2>put yourself in Juan's shoes. You've just had your conviction overturned.

710
00:36:37.150 --> 00:36:39.409
<v Speaker 2>You're being sent to a jail to await a second trial.

711
00:36:39.849 --> 00:36:42.409
<v Speaker 2>Are you really going to make incriminating statements to another

712
00:36:42.510 --> 00:36:44.719
<v Speaker 2>inmate and claim that you committed the crime when this

713
00:36:44.780 --> 00:36:46.300
<v Speaker 2>is your chance to get out of prison?

714
00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:50.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I truly don't think so. But I think when

715
00:36:50.800 --> 00:36:55.800
<v Speaker 1>we look at jailhouse snitches or jailhouse confessions, we have

716
00:36:55.840 --> 00:36:59.449
<v Speaker 1>to question what is the individual who's coming forward with

717
00:36:59.469 --> 00:37:04.190
<v Speaker 1>this information getting from this? Are they receiving special privileges?

718
00:37:04.210 --> 00:37:08.639
<v Speaker 1>Are they getting visits with family? Are they getting transferred

719
00:37:08.659 --> 00:37:12.579
<v Speaker 1>to another unit, something more comfortable, less security? If they

720
00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:17.110
<v Speaker 1>are receiving absolutely nothing for their testimony, then I would

721
00:37:17.130 --> 00:37:20.030
<v Speaker 1>be much more inclined to believe it to be genuine,

722
00:37:20.510 --> 00:37:23.449
<v Speaker 1>but I too, same as you, would call out the

723
00:37:23.489 --> 00:37:26.750
<v Speaker 1>timing here. Juan is about to get what he wants,

724
00:37:26.969 --> 00:37:30.480
<v Speaker 1>which is to potentially get out of prison, at least

725
00:37:30.500 --> 00:37:33.440
<v Speaker 1>to have the evidence looked at again under a different light.

726
00:37:33.840 --> 00:37:37.440
<v Speaker 1>When time has passed and perspective is had, And the

727
00:37:37.530 --> 00:37:41.050
<v Speaker 1>understanding is a lot deeper on things like false confessions.

728
00:37:41.289 --> 00:37:44.429
<v Speaker 1>So would he truly be out there talking about how

729
00:37:44.510 --> 00:37:47.210
<v Speaker 1>he did it? I don't think so, even with an

730
00:37:47.289 --> 00:37:49.130
<v Speaker 1>IQ of 79.

731
00:37:49.130 --> 00:37:51.699
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, it makes no sense whatsoever. And it just

732
00:37:51.719 --> 00:37:54.920
<v Speaker 2>seems convenient to me that after Juan's family took Crespo

733
00:37:55.059 --> 00:37:57.219
<v Speaker 2>in and he got kicked out for the house for

734
00:37:57.320 --> 00:38:00.019
<v Speaker 2>using drugs and was potentially being sent back to jail

735
00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:02.500
<v Speaker 2>for a parole violation, that's when he comes forward with

736
00:38:02.539 --> 00:38:04.909
<v Speaker 2>this story. So like you said, it's the ultimate example

737
00:38:04.929 --> 00:38:07.469
<v Speaker 2>where you have to see what a jailhouse informant is

738
00:38:07.489 --> 00:38:12.039
<v Speaker 2>getting in return before you take their story seriously. But

739
00:38:12.059 --> 00:38:14.280
<v Speaker 2>the other big piece of new evidence presented at this

740
00:38:14.340 --> 00:38:18.480
<v Speaker 2>trial was testimony from Don Engelbrecht's daughter, Taylor. who was

741
00:38:18.579 --> 00:38:21.159
<v Speaker 2>only two years old when Holly's murder took place, but

742
00:38:21.219 --> 00:38:23.510
<v Speaker 2>was now eight years old, and she got on the

743
00:38:23.550 --> 00:38:27.210
<v Speaker 2>stand to testify that she personally witnessed Holly's murder, and

744
00:38:28.190 --> 00:38:30.090
<v Speaker 2>she was killed by a male who dragged her body

745
00:38:30.130 --> 00:38:35.239
<v Speaker 2>into the bedroom, and she positively identified Juan as the assailant. But, yeah,

746
00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:37.440
<v Speaker 2>you're putting your hands over your face right now, so

747
00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:39.940
<v Speaker 2>I can understand your skepticism here, but yes, we just

748
00:38:39.980 --> 00:38:42.440
<v Speaker 2>talked about this. This is a two-year-old, and while I

749
00:38:42.500 --> 00:38:44.719
<v Speaker 2>do believe there's a good chance she witnessed the murder,

750
00:38:45.139 --> 00:38:47.969
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how she could accurately recollect it in

751
00:38:48.010 --> 00:38:50.809
<v Speaker 2>her memory after all these years, so it seemed pretty

752
00:38:50.949 --> 00:38:53.650
<v Speaker 2>obvious here that she had been coached and told that, yeah,

753
00:38:53.690 --> 00:38:56.949
<v Speaker 2>we are putting this Polly's killer back in prison, so

754
00:38:56.969 --> 00:38:59.030
<v Speaker 2>get on the stand and identify this guy as the

755
00:38:59.070 --> 00:38:59.690
<v Speaker 2>man you saw.

756
00:39:00.780 --> 00:39:05.559
<v Speaker 1>We already have an issue with eyewitness identification with adults.

757
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:10.000
<v Speaker 1>And when we think of memories... And we think of

758
00:39:10.079 --> 00:39:13.059
<v Speaker 1>our earliest memories. Most of us are going to recollect

759
00:39:13.099 --> 00:39:16.179
<v Speaker 1>things from when we're three, maybe four years old, and

760
00:39:16.219 --> 00:39:20.130
<v Speaker 1>they'll be fragmented. And we probably won't be able to

761
00:39:20.250 --> 00:39:22.769
<v Speaker 1>tell how much of it is accurate or how much

762
00:39:22.789 --> 00:39:26.090
<v Speaker 1>of it is true. Just what our young brains and

763
00:39:26.130 --> 00:39:29.469
<v Speaker 1>our perspective took in at the time. And so to

764
00:39:29.530 --> 00:39:31.719
<v Speaker 1>think that... you're going to have a memory from two

765
00:39:31.760 --> 00:39:36.719
<v Speaker 1>years old that didn't come out through hypnosis with a

766
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:42.000
<v Speaker 1>psychologist who's trained would have me questioning this. I just,

767
00:39:42.119 --> 00:39:45.690
<v Speaker 1>I've never heard of two people having memories from when

768
00:39:45.710 --> 00:39:48.780
<v Speaker 1>they're two years old that just come out and so

769
00:39:48.920 --> 00:39:53.750
<v Speaker 1>accurate that they're able to identify the perpetrator. And because

770
00:39:53.789 --> 00:39:56.789
<v Speaker 1>she was questioned and because law enforcement probably spent a

771
00:39:56.829 --> 00:40:00.289
<v Speaker 1>certain amount of time around her, I wonder if some

772
00:40:00.329 --> 00:40:03.260
<v Speaker 1>of these details were fed to her. And then she

773
00:40:03.320 --> 00:40:06.539
<v Speaker 1>genuinely believes that these are true memories because it is

774
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:09.440
<v Speaker 1>very easy to influence children. And at this point, she's

775
00:40:09.579 --> 00:40:10.380
<v Speaker 1>only eight years old.

776
00:40:11.219 --> 00:40:14.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly. So, I'm sure she was convinced she was right,

777
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:16.119
<v Speaker 2>that she had seen this guy, but I'm sure you

778
00:40:16.139 --> 00:40:18.039
<v Speaker 2>could say the same thing, that you don't remember a

779
00:40:18.099 --> 00:40:20.619
<v Speaker 2>thing that happened when you were two years old, that

780
00:40:20.980 --> 00:40:23.559
<v Speaker 2>sometimes I'm shown photographs of my parents of an event

781
00:40:23.639 --> 00:40:24.989
<v Speaker 2>I was at when I was two, and I have

782
00:40:25.050 --> 00:40:28.570
<v Speaker 2>no recollection of it whatsoever, so I seriously doubt that

783
00:40:28.929 --> 00:40:30.730
<v Speaker 2>if I witnessed a murder at the age of two,

784
00:40:30.789 --> 00:40:33.630
<v Speaker 2>that I would be able to recollect the perpetrator's face,

785
00:40:34.030 --> 00:40:36.809
<v Speaker 2>and then remember it, like, six years after the fact.

786
00:40:37.690 --> 00:40:39.110
<v Speaker 2>So that about brings an end to part one of

787
00:40:39.170 --> 00:40:41.179
<v Speaker 2>our series about the murder of Holly Staker and the

788
00:40:41.219 --> 00:40:43.960
<v Speaker 2>wrongful conviction of Juan Rivera. Join us again next week

789
00:40:44.000 --> 00:40:45.960
<v Speaker 2>as we continue talking about this in part two.

790
00:40:47.599 --> 00:40:49.079
<v Speaker 3>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

791
00:40:49.139 --> 00:40:50.559
<v Speaker 3>about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?

792
00:40:51.380 --> 00:40:53.400
<v Speaker 2>Yes, the Trail Went Cold Patreon has been around for

793
00:40:53.460 --> 00:40:57.219
<v Speaker 2>three years now, and we offer the standard... bonus features

794
00:40:57.300 --> 00:41:00.900
<v Speaker 2>like early ad-free episodes, and I also send out stickers

795
00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:03.760
<v Speaker 2>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

796
00:41:03.800 --> 00:41:06.780
<v Speaker 2>with us on Patreon. If you join our $ 5 tier,

797
00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:10.769
<v Speaker 2>Tier 2, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in which

798
00:41:10.929 --> 00:41:13.869
<v Speaker 2>I talk about cases which are not featured on the

799
00:41:13.929 --> 00:41:17.030
<v Speaker 2>Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to Patreon.

800
00:41:17.469 --> 00:41:19.889
<v Speaker 2>And if you join our highest tier, tier three, the

801
00:41:19.889 --> 00:41:23.179
<v Speaker 2>$ 10 tier, one of the features we offer is a

802
00:41:23.420 --> 00:41:27.659
<v Speaker 2>audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsolved Mysteries, where

803
00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:30.599
<v Speaker 2>you can download an audio file and then boot up

804
00:41:30.639 --> 00:41:34.110
<v Speaker 2>the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or YouTube

805
00:41:34.630 --> 00:41:37.789
<v Speaker 2>and play it with my audio commentary playing in the background,

806
00:41:37.809 --> 00:41:40.750
<v Speaker 2>where I just provide trivia and factoids about the cases

807
00:41:40.849 --> 00:41:44.519
<v Speaker 2>featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very first episode

808
00:41:44.559 --> 00:41:47.239
<v Speaker 2>that I did a commentary track over was the episode

809
00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:49.940
<v Speaker 2>featuring this case. So if you want to download a

810
00:41:49.980 --> 00:41:53.059
<v Speaker 2>commentary track in which I make more smart-ass remarks about

811
00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:56.219
<v Speaker 2>Jewel Kaler, then be sure to join Tier 3.

812
00:41:56.219 --> 00:41:57.739
<v Speaker 3>So I want to let you know a little bit

813
00:41:57.800 --> 00:42:00.880
<v Speaker 3>about the Jewels and Ashley Patreon. So there's early ad-free

814
00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:03.840
<v Speaker 3>episodes of The Path Went Chilly. We've got our Path

815
00:42:03.860 --> 00:42:06.619
<v Speaker 3>Went Chilly minis, which are always over an hour. So

816
00:42:06.639 --> 00:42:08.780
<v Speaker 3>they're not very mini, but they're just too short to

817
00:42:08.820 --> 00:42:11.699
<v Speaker 3>turn into a series. And we're really enjoying doing those.

818
00:42:11.780 --> 00:42:14.329
<v Speaker 3>So We hope you'll check out those Patreons. We'll link

819
00:42:14.369 --> 00:42:15.369
<v Speaker 3>them in the show notes.

820
00:42:16.010 --> 00:42:17.969
<v Speaker 2>So I want to thank you all for listening. And

821
00:42:18.050 --> 00:42:20.349
<v Speaker 2>any chance you have to share us on social media

822
00:42:20.389 --> 00:42:23.429
<v Speaker 2>with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciated.

823
00:42:23.550 --> 00:42:27.130
<v Speaker 2>You can email us at thepathwentchili at gmail.com. You can

824
00:42:27.150 --> 00:42:30.369
<v Speaker 2>reach us on Twitter at thepathwent. So until next time,

825
00:42:30.429 --> 00:42:33.150
<v Speaker 2>be sure to bundle up because cold trails and chilly

826
00:42:33.190 --> 00:42:34.710
<v Speaker 2>paths call for warm clothing.

827
00:42:34.909 --> 00:42:37.989
<v Speaker 3>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy.