WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.520 --> 00:00:05.440 Welcome to Skin and Soul. I'm Gwenhemkarsley, a transformational body, 2 00:00:05.519 --> 00:00:08.599 sex and Soul coach, and I'm inviting you on a bold, 3 00:00:08.759 --> 00:00:11.640 unfiltered journey into the heart of our humanity through the 4 00:00:11.720 --> 00:00:14.480 lens of arrows. This is where we strip away the shame, 5 00:00:14.720 --> 00:00:17.559 dive into the unspoken, and embrace the wild. 6 00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:18.839 Raw truth of our desires. 7 00:00:18.960 --> 00:00:22.079 Together, we'll crack open the taboo and cover our deepest 8 00:00:22.120 --> 00:00:25.519 intimacies and awaken the pulse of our sexual essence. Because 9 00:00:25.600 --> 00:00:30.519 real transformation it's messy, it's thrilling, and it's oh so delicious. 10 00:00:30.760 --> 00:00:31.679 Buckle up, loves. 11 00:00:31.800 --> 00:00:34.119 Skin and Soul Beyond the Pale starts. 12 00:00:33.759 --> 00:00:36.280 In three two one. Let's go. 13 00:00:41.320 --> 00:00:42.640 Hello and welcome back. 14 00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:43.320 I'm Gwenhem. 15 00:00:43.359 --> 00:00:45.439 I'm your host of Skin and Soul Beyond the Pale, 16 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:49.880 and today we're going to be talking about heartache, the loneliness, pandemic, 17 00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:52.960 the things that we never get to fully digest, the 18 00:00:53.000 --> 00:00:56.039 loves that linger and the wounds that settle into the body, 19 00:00:56.439 --> 00:00:59.439 the stories that we keep feeding or keeping alive after 20 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:02.880 they've stopped nourishing us. So I'm really lucky to have 21 00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:06.239 today with me. Ben Ufana, thank you for being here 22 00:01:06.879 --> 00:01:09.840 who is a healer, a teacher, and an author who 23 00:01:09.879 --> 00:01:12.319 has spent at least thirty five of his very young 24 00:01:12.400 --> 00:01:16.000 years doing the things that most of us spent our 25 00:01:16.040 --> 00:01:18.760 lives out running and avoiding. 26 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:25.680 So welcome Ben, thank you, thank you. 27 00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:31.120 I have spent the day with you quite literally just 28 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:34.840 kind of absorbing your energy and your work, which is 29 00:01:34.879 --> 00:01:39.480 really beautiful and magical. And I think where I'd love 30 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:41.560 to start is a little bit about your. 31 00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:42.200 Journey and. 32 00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:50.840 The Vision Quest, because explaining what the vision quest is 33 00:01:50.879 --> 00:01:53.480 and how you kind of came to it. 34 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:58.239 Sure, initially from a very early age, I was drawn 35 00:01:58.280 --> 00:02:03.040 to Native Americans and fascination continue to grow in to adolescence. 36 00:02:03.159 --> 00:02:07.719 When I first learned about the traditional Native doctors, I decided, 37 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:10.240 if given the opportunity, this is what I'll do with 38 00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:14.159 my life. Took off on my own at seventeen, landed 39 00:02:14.199 --> 00:02:18.719 in a community predominantly Kiaway Indians, was sitting up all 40 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:22.639 night in the teepees with the native elders and is 41 00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:25.520 in one of these pyote meetings I met my mentor, 42 00:02:25.840 --> 00:02:28.680 or as Dalkeye. This is one of the last surviving 43 00:02:28.800 --> 00:02:34.560 traditional Kiahway doctors that time. In the apprenticeship he transmitted 44 00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:39.840 portions of his own healing gifts. And typically what is 45 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:44.639 involved is you go through the vision quest, which generally 46 00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:47.680 involves the four days and nights without food and water 47 00:02:47.879 --> 00:02:51.400 alone in the mountains in order to earn the right 48 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:55.599 to work with those gifts of healing. And although I 49 00:02:55.599 --> 00:02:58.439 missed a number of years in my twenties in my 50 00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:03.759 wandering alone in the desert phase, metaphorically, at thirty one, 51 00:03:03.800 --> 00:03:07.879 I started going back. And since that time, I've been 52 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:12.080 going And this is like over thirty years ago. Now 53 00:03:12.199 --> 00:03:16.520 I'm older, I look and just spring and fall like clockwork. 54 00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:22.800 Because yeah, and what brings you what keeps you going back? 55 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:25.520 So when you tell when you speak of a vision quest, 56 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:28.199 first of all, what is the process? Like, what brings 57 00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:30.159 you there to do the vision quest? 58 00:03:33.280 --> 00:03:39.319 Initially I was thinking about how are reflecting on how 59 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:44.199 a lot of these traditional native doctors they were developed 60 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:50.439 extraordinary gifts of healing and other capabilities that range into 61 00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:54.560 the paranormal. And I was thinking, hey, if I need 62 00:03:54.599 --> 00:03:59.039 to go back, this is how these individuals became so 63 00:03:59.159 --> 00:04:05.599 extraordinarily powerful and and so I was feeling that pull 64 00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:09.879 and I reached out to a friend back in Oklahoma 65 00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:13.360 and I was living in New Mexico, and I said, sure, 66 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:16.600 come on out. And I remember the first time I 67 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:19.199 was back in Oklahoma to go on the vision quest 68 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:22.480 and I was on the in the witch Tap Mountains 69 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:29.079 and I was woefully unprepared to sleeping bag that was 70 00:04:29.279 --> 00:04:33.560 grossly inadequate. I was freezing my ass off and fortunately 71 00:04:33.560 --> 00:04:39.800 it didn't rain that time. But literally I felt as 72 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:43.040 though I was waiting to die at one point, and 73 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:48.959 I was having the traumas, the traumatic memories of early 74 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:53.600 childhood just flooding back into my awareness and in it 75 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:57.600 even in subsequent vision quests that happened numerous times where 76 00:04:58.920 --> 00:05:04.360 events that lift experiences were flooding back, and all the 77 00:05:04.439 --> 00:05:09.600 vivid sensory impressions, all the emotions, the thoughts that were 78 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:12.079 occurring at the time, oh, that was coming back. And 79 00:05:13.000 --> 00:05:15.759 it's like I could feel this presence working within my body, 80 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:20.720 helping me to digest what I had experienced, and this 81 00:05:20.839 --> 00:05:26.360 new foundation was gradually taken shape. Which now this has 82 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:32.439 played a hugely important part in my own healing process 83 00:05:32.560 --> 00:05:36.920 because so much of the trauma of the dysfunction that 84 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:40.680 I internalized that was playing out in my relationships. I 85 00:05:40.800 --> 00:05:44.759 was caught in the cycle of re enactingment and so 86 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:48.879 it was through the Vision Quest that that started to dismantle, 87 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:53.160 to come apart, and that new foundation developed. 88 00:05:55.519 --> 00:05:58.079 Because I know you talk about having gone through some 89 00:05:58.160 --> 00:06:00.879 toxic relationships and so on. So when you went to 90 00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:03.319 do the Vision Quest and all of this wounding was 91 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:05.839 coming up all like you just said, your traumas were 92 00:06:05.879 --> 00:06:08.199 showing up, and I'm like, I'm going why on earth 93 00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:12.040 would somebody want to do that? How was that experience 94 00:06:12.199 --> 00:06:15.000 for you? To move through it before and after? 95 00:06:18.519 --> 00:06:23.000 At the time, it could be excruciating. And part of 96 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:26.000 it too was you know, before I started going back 97 00:06:26.040 --> 00:06:30.360 to do the Vision Quest, like as I said, my 98 00:06:30.439 --> 00:06:33.399 mentor had transmitted portions of his healing gifts to me, 99 00:06:33.560 --> 00:06:36.639 and I parked myself in college for a few years. 100 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:41.639 I needed to reassemble myself because the training was really extreme. 101 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:44.279 He would do things like at one point he dropped 102 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:46.480 me off in the middle of the Hopee Indian Reservation 103 00:06:46.680 --> 00:06:49.720 said hitchlike to Las Vegas. Make it the best you can. 104 00:06:50.759 --> 00:06:56.680 And that was traumatic so extent. You know, at twenty 105 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:00.040 to go through that and being in survival mode. 106 00:07:01.079 --> 00:07:04.160 But as it's come in time for. 107 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:08.920 Graduation, then it's like, wow, you know, college financial aid's 108 00:07:08.959 --> 00:07:11.600 running out. I actually have to support myself. And when 109 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:16.879 I started working with other people and that transmission, that 110 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:22.560 gift was awakening, a lot of that trauma was surfacing, 111 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:26.240 and I was caught in the cycle of reenactment, and 112 00:07:26.319 --> 00:07:33.480 so the emotions that surface at that time were debilitating, 113 00:07:34.600 --> 00:07:39.439 is incapacitating, I could hardly get out of bed, is excruciating. 114 00:07:39.560 --> 00:07:44.600 Yet instinctively I taught myself to dive into the depths 115 00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:49.000 of what was coming up in those moments. I mean, 116 00:07:49.040 --> 00:07:51.839 I did go through a few years of psychotherapy that 117 00:07:52.040 --> 00:07:55.519 was extraordinarily helpful to give me the much needed intellectual 118 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:58.360 understanding of why was the mess I was and the 119 00:07:58.519 --> 00:07:59.720 dysfunction playing out? 120 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:01.720 But the patterns were continuing. 121 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:05.360 I continue to attract the same type of individual, the 122 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:09.519 same kinds of emotions kept resurfacing. So it was by 123 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:12.879 teaching myself to go into the depths of these emotions 124 00:08:12.920 --> 00:08:16.600 that and I would sometimes breathe into the depths of 125 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:19.279 what I was feeling for hours on end, but at 126 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:21.480 a certain point I could feel it breaking open and 127 00:08:21.519 --> 00:08:24.560 coming out of my body in waves. And as that happened, 128 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:29.199 there was these powerful emanations of warmth that were beginning 129 00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:34.120 to emerge from within, and so it was breaking dissolving 130 00:08:34.200 --> 00:08:40.799 those unhealthy attachments. And so my attachment or fixation to 131 00:08:41.080 --> 00:08:45.240 someone who was not a good match, and there were 132 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:49.960 a few that had either borderline narcissistic tendencies or even 133 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:54.799 issues with alcohol and other substances, those attachments were dissolving. 134 00:08:56.120 --> 00:08:58.360 But the thing is, the wounding was so deep, and 135 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:01.799 that's when I really started exploring, which is what I 136 00:09:01.879 --> 00:09:05.440 encourage people who do. In addition to working with this practice, 137 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:10.120 we need to be incorporating the most effective therapeutic interventions 138 00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:13.440 to facilitate the healing that we cannot fully do on 139 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:17.440 our own. And then again at thirty one, when I 140 00:09:17.480 --> 00:09:19.440 start feeling that pool to go back to do the 141 00:09:19.519 --> 00:09:23.879 vision quest, that has been the most powerful as far 142 00:09:23.960 --> 00:09:33.039 as I dismantling, taking apart this deeply ingrained patterns that 143 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:38.799 were we developed these for lack of a better term, configurations. 144 00:09:39.200 --> 00:09:42.240 You know, it's like the lived experiences and the emotions, 145 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:47.519 the thought processes, everything just it solidifies within our bodies. 146 00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:51.840 And where so many people get into trouble too, is 147 00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:55.039 the fact that the vast majority of people have never 148 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:57.799 learned to work effectively with their own emotions. 149 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:00.240 And so the tendencies we deny. 150 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:03.799 We suppress, we distract ourselves, we do everything we can, 151 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:05.679 Like I don't want to go there. I don't want 152 00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:08.919 to feel that we pour ourselves out of it. But 153 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:14.440 that the wounding, the trauma, the emotions, everything resides in 154 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:18.639 our body. And it's hard word, and I found it's 155 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:24.679 essential to have the combination of both. Like like, I 156 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:27.840 studied hypnosis for a few years and I kind of 157 00:10:27.879 --> 00:10:32.600 got distracted from that deep emotional processing I described, and 158 00:10:33.399 --> 00:10:37.279 I would go to the mountain and that despite all 159 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:39.600 that power, a lot of it was bouncing off of 160 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:43.679 me because I was so armored. But then I just 161 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:48.320 that instinctual knowing pulled me back. It's like, no, go 162 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:51.320 back and do your practice. 163 00:10:51.559 --> 00:10:53.440 We have to want to though, like, and I think 164 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:55.799 that's the thing, like when I think about, you know, 165 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:59.480 my own journey, which also started probably pretty young, where 166 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:03.799 I started just having that calling for some form of healing, 167 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:06.080 which I think many people are like, I don't know 168 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:10.360 anything about healing, or I don't you know, or even 169 00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:12.879 in the thought of I want to heal, I always wonder, 170 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:17.440 you know, whether that's I think people initially think they 171 00:11:17.480 --> 00:11:20.200 want to heal, but there's a lot of work. 172 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:21.360 That goes into it. 173 00:11:21.440 --> 00:11:23.919 And so when it comes to things like we're really 174 00:11:23.960 --> 00:11:28.200 talking about attachment here, like being attached to whether it's 175 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:31.000 a person or a story or a dream or whatever 176 00:11:31.039 --> 00:11:36.360 it is that's causing us to suffer in some capacity. Right, 177 00:11:36.399 --> 00:11:40.639 But even when we say we want to heal, we 178 00:11:40.799 --> 00:11:46.360 have this attachment to not letting go of even the suffering. 179 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:49.600 And so it does like you going to the mountain 180 00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:52.720 every year or twice a year and to do the 181 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:55.320 vision quest. And I think just to give people context, right, 182 00:11:55.399 --> 00:11:58.120 you go, you fast for four days, there's no water, 183 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:01.840 there's no food, You're in extreme kind of conditions. I 184 00:12:01.879 --> 00:12:04.039 love that you were thrown to Las Vegas. I go 185 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:06.399 on the trip, right, part of me is like what 186 00:12:06.519 --> 00:12:07.799 did you learn on that trip? 187 00:12:07.879 --> 00:12:10.039 Like not I'm never coming and doing this again. 188 00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:14.919 But for most people it's like how do I do? 189 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:17.759 You know? How do I stay in this? 190 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:21.240 Because most people are like, oh my god, you know 191 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:23.279 now I've got to be with myself. 192 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:29.279 Yeah, And that's so crucial because whatever we deny or 193 00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:34.639 suppress or disconnect from, we carry it. You know, there's 194 00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:37.039 no way that you're going to get rid of it. 195 00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:43.200 It's it's parts of us split off. They operate from 196 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:48.960 the subconscious mind. There's sometimes there's a deadening of parts 197 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:57.000 of self that and eventually they they manifesto some kind 198 00:12:57.039 --> 00:13:01.559 of illness or pathology. I don't I'll say everything you're 199 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:05.080 carrying is going to manifest is in the illness. But 200 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:09.159 that often is the case. And I see that in 201 00:13:09.200 --> 00:13:13.360 the work I do with people, especially as people are 202 00:13:13.440 --> 00:13:17.919 growing older their forties and fifties, sixties and on, our 203 00:13:18.639 --> 00:13:21.960 bodies are not quite as resilient as they were, say 204 00:13:22.000 --> 00:13:24.720 when we were in our teens and twenties or even thirties. 205 00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:29.200 So I'm working with people with stroke and heart disease, 206 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:36.159 and all this residual is like leaking out, just rage 207 00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:41.480 and anger and grief and so much so and. 208 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:43.519 All of a sudden, And I do think, you know, 209 00:13:43.679 --> 00:13:45.679 I look at my mom now, who is eighty four, 210 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:48.159 and I do have this theory that what we don't 211 00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:51.039 deal with kind of amplifies as we get older. 212 00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:53.679 So we haven't dealt with the rage. 213 00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:56.639 If you haven't dealt with the sadness or the grief 214 00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:00.720 or whatever it is, that somehow it houterized is itself 215 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:02.279 or I don't know if that's the right word, or 216 00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:06.600 crystallizes in our bodies in a way and it cements 217 00:14:06.679 --> 00:14:10.919 in our personalities and shows up that way. I find, 218 00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:14.960 you know, like witnessing multitude of people just as they 219 00:14:14.960 --> 00:14:17.080 get older, if they're not like dealing with their shit, 220 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:24.840 that it's the impact of life itself is like just 221 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:28.360 becomes solidified and they're like, this is just what it is, right, 222 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:30.919 and it's and it's always like, no, there's there is 223 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:33.480 a path, but it's not an easy path. 224 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:34.360 Not at all. 225 00:14:34.840 --> 00:14:38.600 No, No, And I wanted to ask you because because 226 00:14:38.600 --> 00:14:41.480 I what today when I was watching around COVID, because 227 00:14:41.480 --> 00:14:46.080 I think COVID was one of those moments in our 228 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:50.840 history where we are we were forced to sit with 229 00:14:50.879 --> 00:14:53.679 ourselves and this like this deep I think there was 230 00:14:53.720 --> 00:14:58.519 so much deep loneliness going on, uh and people having 231 00:14:58.600 --> 00:15:02.480 to sit with themselves. And I wonder whether people walked 232 00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:08.919 away from that richer like I have to wake up, 233 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:11.720 there's something else that I need to do with my life, 234 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:15.840 with myself or whether you know, people have gone back 235 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:21.639 and even like more hardcore have distracted themselves with which 236 00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:25.000 is with distraction right now, it can be anything, AI am. 237 00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:27.120 You know, we're on our we're on our phones, we're 238 00:15:27.159 --> 00:15:29.120 at work, and I'm just wondering what you think, what 239 00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:29.919 you think about that. 240 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:34.120 Let's address that, and let's come back to the importance 241 00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:37.679 of real facing ourselves because because both need to be 242 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:44.799 And now, what what I found is before COVID, I 243 00:15:44.840 --> 00:15:49.960 taught classes on a weekly basis, and but there is 244 00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:55.000 over time there was people were showing up less and 245 00:15:55.159 --> 00:16:01.879 less and like let's say, when I first started offering classes, 246 00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:05.000 maybe eighty percent of sixty to eighty percent of people 247 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:07.639 who are SVP would show up, and it went down 248 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:10.279 to twenty or thirty percent, And then when COVID happened, 249 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:14.200 even coming out of lockdown, it's yeah, much less so. 250 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:16.720 And so there are a lot of concerns with that 251 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:21.960 people are less apt to show up in person. And 252 00:16:22.440 --> 00:16:26.399 it's not just COVID. There are so many things. COVID 253 00:16:26.519 --> 00:16:30.600 just put the accelerator through the floor on the direction 254 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:35.039 we were already having the fact that we're relying more 255 00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:38.600 on texting as opposed to picking up the phone and 256 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:41.360 calling or showing up in person, which is even better 257 00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:47.960 that I feel it is tragic that so many people 258 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:51.600 are reliant on dating apps. We cannot engage with the 259 00:16:51.639 --> 00:16:55.840 people in our immediate proximity. And because we're relying so 260 00:16:55.960 --> 00:17:00.000 much on apps and texting and everything, you know, it's 261 00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:04.920 there's less and less of us present, engaged and we're 262 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:12.400 missing these critically important developmental processes that we need to experience, 263 00:17:12.440 --> 00:17:15.279 that we need to go through, which is so much 264 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:17.960 of our learning. And you know, because there's a lot 265 00:17:18.000 --> 00:17:20.599 of trial and error, a lot of learn as we 266 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:24.880 go that happens through direct engagement, and the fact that 267 00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:29.039 we have these apps and this illusion of endless possibility 268 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:36.079 that it contributes to this devaluation of the individuals that 269 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:38.599 we would meet, that we would connect with, that we 270 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:40.839 would partner with. And there's much more of a sense 271 00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:42.160 of disposability. 272 00:17:43.319 --> 00:17:48.200 Yeah, such an epectification right now of life itself. There's 273 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:53.039 no real sense of accountability because you can break up 274 00:17:53.079 --> 00:17:56.880 with somebody over a text, not having to witness, like 275 00:17:56.920 --> 00:17:58.759 you said, you used to have to pick up the phone, 276 00:17:58.839 --> 00:18:01.920 or even better, in person, and which brings in the 277 00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:05.519 human element of Oh, you have to deal with yourself 278 00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:09.079 either way on either side of the coin, right, whether 279 00:18:09.119 --> 00:18:12.440 it's the person receiving or the person giving the news. 280 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:17.640 And I think you know, in talking going into parts 281 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:22.519 of heartache or loneliness, we're no longer being able to 282 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:25.119 sit in that in a deep way. It's kind of 283 00:18:25.160 --> 00:18:30.400 like there's one side of the coin that's just not 284 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:33.839 even being witnessed by any It's just it's such a 285 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:37.039 solitary place to be, and then we just go distract 286 00:18:37.039 --> 00:18:39.799 ourselves with something else, that shiny object. 287 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:46.359 Yeah, and a lot of times we form attachments to people, 288 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:50.119 and a lot of people are many of us. I 289 00:18:50.200 --> 00:18:54.200 didn't for some time, and many still don't understand that 290 00:18:54.319 --> 00:18:57.799 much of the population is not really what you call 291 00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:01.519 growth oriented. They don't have that petis or that internal 292 00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:08.160 driver commitment like to better themselves, to better ourselves, and 293 00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:14.160 so they just go through life in ways that are 294 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:18.200 they're creating messes and they leave messes. They don't deal 295 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:22.960 with things, and they disconnect. And it's. 296 00:19:24.519 --> 00:19:28.160 What do you think makes you different than my curiosity? 297 00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:31.599 Is what makes you different from the average person who's 298 00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:33.720 going along? Like, what do you think the seed was 299 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:36.839 within you that made you go like I. 300 00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:40.160 Feel this deeply or I. 301 00:19:40.839 --> 00:19:44.880 Want more than where I'm sitting in this moment, like, 302 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:48.279 what makes you know? Because there's so much mass out 303 00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:50.759 there that always surprises me if they're like this just 304 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:53.200 the way that that life is, I've never questioned a thing, 305 00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:56.960 and I'm always like, really, so what do you think 306 00:19:57.039 --> 00:19:58.839 for you that that seed is? 307 00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:03.920 There are different aspects of it. One is I was 308 00:20:04.200 --> 00:20:08.720 not one of these individuals who is able to compartmentalize, 309 00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:13.799 to suppress or disconnect and think to myself, Oh, everything's cool, 310 00:20:13.920 --> 00:20:16.799 it's all fine, and just move along. 311 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:20.279 I was so consumed. 312 00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:26.000 By the overwhelming and even at times excruciating emotions that 313 00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:29.880 I could not escape from it. And also it was 314 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:34.519 being reflected back to me in relationships that were not working. 315 00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:39.480 And maybe if there's someone who's quite beautiful or handsome 316 00:20:39.599 --> 00:20:42.400 or something, and because of their appearance they could still 317 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:46.079 attract or whatever it's there's still somebody going to be 318 00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:49.880 interested in them, no matter how is it. 319 00:20:49.839 --> 00:20:50.880 Okay to use it? 320 00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:56.039 Yeah, anything, no matter how fucked up they are. Just yeah, 321 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:59.079 because of their beauty or handsome, they're still going to attract. 322 00:20:59.119 --> 00:21:01.759 And there's but it's going to be attracted to him. 323 00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:04.680 It wasn't working that way for me, and and so 324 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:07.799 to have that continually reflected back to me, And so 325 00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:12.440 there was a profoundly deep desire to well two things. One, 326 00:21:12.720 --> 00:21:17.880 the pain I was excluish experiencing was so torturous at 327 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:22.400 times that Okay, I got to get to myself, get 328 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:26.599 myself to a place where I'm no longer living like this. 329 00:21:27.000 --> 00:21:29.119 I mean, I cannot continue to live like this. 330 00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:29.880 I have to. 331 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:33.880 I have to heal if I'm going to continue to 332 00:21:34.720 --> 00:21:36.960 exist in this body on this planet, you know. And 333 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:41.559 so I don't off myself or something. 334 00:21:42.200 --> 00:21:45.160 That was. I mean I did. 335 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:47.640 When you say that, But that's real, right when the 336 00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:51.240 pain is that acute. Yeah, And again, you know, I'm 337 00:21:51.240 --> 00:21:54.519 somebody who grew up with a mother who's very depressive, 338 00:21:54.759 --> 00:21:59.079 full of anxiety, and through that I had carried a 339 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:02.599 lot of you know, wounding within me. So I think 340 00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:06.279 I had a similar like just carrying a lot of 341 00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:10.799 emotion and wounds and grief and not knowing what it was, 342 00:22:10.960 --> 00:22:14.079 not knowing how to deal with it, and then leaking 343 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:18.400 it out and seeking toxic relationships and and in life. 344 00:22:18.880 --> 00:22:21.960 And then there's that moment where you sat down and 345 00:22:22.000 --> 00:22:23.960 you said, like, I don't want to live this way, right, 346 00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:28.000 I want different which to me speaks to resilience by 347 00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:29.759 the way, like I just see you and I'm like, oh, yeah, 348 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:30.559 that's really resilient. 349 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:32.319 Because then again, you know, I'm going. 350 00:22:32.240 --> 00:22:34.960 To my poor mother was no say in what I 351 00:22:34.960 --> 00:22:37.920 say about her here at all. Bless her, but she 352 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:39.240 never had that desire. 353 00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:43.000 She did have a desire to seek help. 354 00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:45.720 But ironically, like for her, it was oh, let's take 355 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:48.160 the pill, right, like when we talk about addictions or 356 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:50.960 you know, like for her, it was about numbing the pain. 357 00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:53.160 And I think part of when we talk about sitting 358 00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:56.880 with yourself right, it's it's it's to get to the 359 00:22:56.960 --> 00:22:57.680 place where. 360 00:22:57.519 --> 00:22:58.640 You're not numbing. 361 00:22:58.839 --> 00:23:02.960 And you were able through this I guess your initial 362 00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:05.759 vision quest, which is probably a big hurricane to you. 363 00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:09.920 I bige that moment, and yet. 364 00:23:09.720 --> 00:23:13.079 You continued on that path where most people are doing 365 00:23:13.200 --> 00:23:15.319 everything not to feel. 366 00:23:17.079 --> 00:23:23.079 Also, there's a profound shame that came with because we 367 00:23:23.160 --> 00:23:26.240 all have a certain amount of blindness or dysfunction. And 368 00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:32.759 so for me, when I would form those attachments, especially 369 00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:37.160 if there was like someone was unavailable or disinterested or 370 00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:40.599 they were really dysfunctional, was causing me evoking a lot 371 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:46.079 of painful emotion. The shame the humiliation, and so there 372 00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:52.279 was like seeing myself reflected back to me through those relationships, 373 00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:56.480 and so there's this understanding like there's work to do. 374 00:23:57.519 --> 00:23:58.519 And another thing. 375 00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:02.759 Too is I feel acutely I'm not in pain like that, 376 00:24:04.000 --> 00:24:06.440 and which you can see the way I was laughing 377 00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:10.240 about even the times when I had suicidal ideation like 378 00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:11.720 years and years ago. 379 00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:15.279 But there's still like if something. 380 00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:19.960 Like if I'm seeing something reflected back to me through 381 00:24:19.960 --> 00:24:25.599 a relationship and it's evoking these distressing emotions, it's like, Wow, 382 00:24:25.720 --> 00:24:30.359 there's work to do, and there's a profound desire to 383 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:36.319 be the best version of myself. And I think that's 384 00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:42.640 so important going into relationship too, because there's a lot 385 00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:45.240 of people who are just content to in a sense, 386 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:51.759 let themselves go. And I have this curiosity about people, 387 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:56.839 and I just just watch and how people live their 388 00:24:56.839 --> 00:25:01.960 lives and how things play out. And I don't know, 389 00:25:02.039 --> 00:25:05.799 maybe someone like David Lee Roth, you know, Van Halen's vocalist. 390 00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:09.920 I'm not a fan, but but you see how we 391 00:25:10.119 --> 00:25:16.440 just partied wildly and just you know, and you look 392 00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:24.000 at him now and whereas I admire like having trained 393 00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:27.359 with a traditional Native American doctor, a master from China, 394 00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:33.480 people in the hindu Vedic lineages, and watching these individuals 395 00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:39.240 how they, through intensive daily practice, hours of intensive daily practice, 396 00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:43.839 continue to transform and develop themselves. And so this is 397 00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:46.759 what I admire, this is what I aspire to, and 398 00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:49.200 so that's a big part of what's kept me going 399 00:25:49.240 --> 00:25:53.119 through the vision quest. But there's I feel a sense 400 00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:58.480 of aliveness, and like I can feel the heaviness when 401 00:25:59.240 --> 00:26:02.039