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Speaker 1: We're chom Lorenzo and this is the pop Style Opinion Fest. Hell, look,

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welcome back to another edition of the Pso I am

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the Tea and your tea low Tom Fitzgerald and I'm

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here with the loan your Lorenzo, my cousin husband. No,

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we're not. We're going to keep going. This is the

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fourth intro we have tried to do this morning.

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Speaker 2: This is what a holiday dotty.

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Speaker 1: We're wildly out of practice. Yes, it is the Monday

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after July, fourth weekend, and this is a late edition

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of the podcast because of that, because there's never any

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years of experience have taught us that there's never any

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reason to really a podcast over holiday weekend because people

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are busy doing other things.

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Speaker 2: So they're at their hot dogs and with their families, friends.

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Speaker 1: But we didn't want to completely skip it because we

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know people like the and just like that recap. So

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we're doing an early one on Monday, and then we're

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probably doing another one on Friday. Correct which works out

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well because this is like we are entering the dead

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zone of like red carpet content. There's not going to

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be a lot for the next week. July is always bad.

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We always wind up looking forward to the Venice Film Festival,

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but that's not for another month. But we have some

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things to discuss before we do. I do want to

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give a shout out once again to a Badge of

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Pride in Dallas who hosted us two weeks or you know,

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almost two weeks ago. Yeah, it was almost two weeks ago.

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I go so crazy, it goes so fast for a

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Pride event conversation regarding our book Legendary Children. But I

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wanted to shout out because this was part of the

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Badge of celebration. A Badge of Pride, excuse me, their

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Pride organization was part of their month long Pride celebration

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and they have a museum exhibit that we just want

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to urge anyone who is at or near Irving, Texas

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to go and see because it's still up. It'll be

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up until September twenty eighth at the Irving Archives and Museum.

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It's called Badge of Pride From Silence to Celebration, and

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it's really a fantastic just summary of queer cultural and

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political history of the last seventy five or so years.

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And if you've read our book and enjoyed our book,

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it is such a great companion piece to our book, right,

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because it's like walking through it. So that's the Irving

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Archives and Museum in Irving, Texas. It is the Badge

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of Pride from Silence to Celebration exhibition and it's there

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until September. And I not yes twenty eight Yes recommended

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enough to people, right.

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Speaker 2: And it's interesting because we're talking about this because I

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actually text almost text the guys because you know, because

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of what's going on in text's right now with the

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flood and everything. Yeah, and I feel very sorry. I mean,

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it's a horrible thing that happened. Anyway, So yeah, Texas

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is going through a lot right now. But I was

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thinking about the guys and anyway.

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Speaker 1: You mean the guys who have organized yes, yeah, organized event.

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Speaker 2: Let people in. I know, well you do an we

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talked about them the Less podcast. But that's it. It's

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a great exhibit and we highly recommend.

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Speaker 1: It absolutely, all right, So we have a few things

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to discuss before we get to and just like that,

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And strangely they're both documentaries. We don't really spend a

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lot of time you know. There. We have a pretty

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wide purview. We've we've granted ourselves over the years. But

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there are certain things that I kind of refuse to

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talk about, one of which big one is music. I

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will not do any sort of review or opinionating on

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music because that is a highly specific, uh discipline. Yeah,

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I don't feel comfortable doing it. Same thing with theater,

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not it's not where my expertise lies. So I never

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really cover Broadway or any of that stuff. And when

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it comes to film, there are times when we've actually

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had this conversation where we'll get a trailer for a

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documentary and Lorenzo will be like, should I put this up?

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And I'm like, we don't really, I mean, that's not

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really our thing documentaries. But both of these documentaries actually

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fall into, you know, some interests of ours, and they're

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both on streaming and they're kind of the discussed documentaries

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of this month. So the first one is My Mom Jane,

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which is a documentary by Mariska Hargate the SVUX who

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is a daughter is a daughter of Jane Mansfield, the

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platinum blonde sexpot of the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties,

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And it's on HBO. I'm sorry, it's on Max. And

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generally I don't hold a lot of weight for celebrity

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documentaries that are being produced by family members or by

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the celebrities themselves. It's a very big thing now on streaming.

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They just get celebrities to sit down and talk about

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their lives and careers and they call it a documentary.

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But I was actually very impressed by what she did.

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She directed it, and Marisco harcaat is not as far

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as I know, she doesn't have anything directing credits, but

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she she really wove a tale and told a story

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in a way that as it unfolded, she allowed it

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to evolve on screen. So you think you're watching a

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movie about and I think she thought that was the

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movie she was doing was a sort of a look

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a retrospective of her mother, her mother's career, her mother's

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image and everything. But what it became as it evolved

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or as the movie played on, was it was so

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much more about her as a daughter, right seeking out

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some sort of answers and meaning in her own life.

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And you I was actually really impressed. Let me just say,

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Marisco Hargitay. We covered her a couple of weeks ago

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because she was promoting this, and one of the things

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we noted at the time was that she is she

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doesn't do a lot of promotional work because she doesn't

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have to do a lot of promotional work. She doesn't.

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She's like in that Ellen Pompeo mode where she's had

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the same role for twenty years. Right, she doesn't have

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to go out and do red carpets and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: Everybody loves her for that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all locked in. So she's not someone we've

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spent a lot of time on that. We don't cover

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Marisco Hargitay. I don't watch sv you wantn't watch any

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of those shows, So I don't have an opinion on

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her career, on her as an actress, any of it.

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But I was actually genuinely pleasantly surprised at the sensitivity

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of this, at this portrayal, and the her willingness to

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portray her own pain. I think was admirable. Because well,

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I'll stop there and let you Why don't you talk

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a little bit about it, because there's a lot I'm

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gonna want to write, right.

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Speaker 2: Right, there's a lot that I didn't know about them.

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First of all, I know very little about all of them.

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I've seen hundreds thousands of pictures of Jane Mansfield. Of

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course I know who she is, but I can't remember

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I know, say, I can't remember any movie or anything.

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I don't. I just remember her as this movie store,

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you know, the famous picture with the Faila Loran, that

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type of stuff, but like this bombshell of gorgeous woman sexy.

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But that's about it. I didn't know anything about career,

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and I have to say I know very little about

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Mariska Argitade the same. I'm not a fan of her show.

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You know, Laura in Order, right? Is that it special Victim? Yeah,

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so I'm never if I was in a van. So

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I think I watched one or two episodes maybe in

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my entire life. But you know, she's doing well. I mean,

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just look at her apartment faces Central Park. I'm sure

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she's doing it well.

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Speaker 1: Happening.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and she's sweet and all that. So I

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didn't know much about it, and I was like, I

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want to watch this, and I was surprised by so

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many things. First of all, I really liked the angle,

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the way she approached the entire thing right from the

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get go, when she is talking to her family and

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brothers and sisters, sister, well gus one sister. And it's

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very interesting because it was the whole approach was like,

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I have no memories of my mom, could you tell

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me about her?

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Speaker 1: And that's just hard breaking. And this is what I

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want to talk about, is that it Jane Mansvelt again.

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And I agree with you. I saw the girl can't

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help it at some point in my in my classic

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film Hobby Watching. But I never saw a little success

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spoil rock Hunter, and I don't think I've ever seen

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anything else she was in. She is an image but

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not an actress to me, like that's just the way

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it is. She doesn't have a lot of iconic film

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roles to refer to, and she she had a messy life.

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She led a messy life, and James Jane Mansfield and

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her children, who are of course all senior citizens. At

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this point, the focuses mostly on her first daughter, Jane Marie,

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who she had with her first husband, and then the

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three children that she had with Mickey Hargatee, which are

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two boys, Mickey and Sultan and Mariska.

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Speaker 2: Are we gonna go, Yeah, we are, we are.

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Speaker 1: There is gonna be a it wasn't spoiled. I mean,

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we are going to talk about the outcome of the documentary.

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So if you don't want to know, we'll tell you

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right now.

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Speaker 2: But this was all.

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Speaker 1: This was all in the press for it. She did

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a huge interview with The New York Times like a

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month ago and revealed all of this. So the documentary

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does go in a direction, and it reveals some family secrets,

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and if you don't want to know them, then please

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skip ahead. I don't think we're going to be talking

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about this for more than five or ten minutes after this,

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so skip ahead, all right. So, and you can tell

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those kids adored her, the ones that remember her, the

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three oldest that and you can also tell I'll say this,

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it's a brave documentary, and in terms of a star

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telling basically their own story, it's braver than most of

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those types of documentaries. However, I think you need to

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and this is true of any documentary. I think you

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need to look, You need to read between the lines,

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and you need to question what is and isn't being

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said or shown to you. And my point is this,

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those kids, the three older ones especially, just absolutely adored her,

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and when they talk about her, it is in the

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most affectionate way. However, I felt they were clearly covering

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for her. The older ones were clearly not going to

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get into what were some fairly seedy aspects of her

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life and her children and how she what she exposed

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her children to. Like I don't know if you know this,

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but the one kid, the one son, the woman dark hair,

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he was attacked by a lion when he was like

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five years old.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know that.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, because she she was a little flighty about

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and she wasn't. I think it's very clear that she

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loved her kids, and you can see it in all

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the footage. She was crazy about her kids. She was

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a loving mother, but she was also obsessed with her

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own career right and willing to do just about anything

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to pursue a certain image. And yeah, I think her

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kids sometimes got in the way of that. They were

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in the car that you know, I mean three of

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her kid they almost got killed in the car cresh

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with her.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's not her fault about the crash.

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Speaker 1: She was out. I don't want to say it's her fault,

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but she the way she lived her life and her

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pursued her career, she was exposing her kids to things.

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Speaker 2: She had to drag her kids to a lot of Yeah,

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they were on a road.

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Speaker 1: In the middle of the night in the Luxei, Mississippi

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because she was doing a stripping act in cabarets. And

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that's the other thing that they don't get into is

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the other thing she got involved with the Church of Satan.

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It was very publicized at the time. She took morisk

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to like Church of Satan meetings and was photographed. Oh

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any of that, Yeah, she They don't show any of

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that because they they didn't want. They give you just

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enough for you to know that, Okay, it was it

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was difficult being her kid because she subjected you to

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a lot. But then they also protect her a lot

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because they don't they did love her.

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Speaker 2: And I thought, that's more about Mariska's journey and with

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discovering her past and her family.

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Speaker 1: I think the fact that she didn't know her at all, right,

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which is really sad.

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Speaker 2: It was said when she said, can you tell me

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about my mother because I have no memories? I mean,

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that's really really said. I also think.

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Speaker 1: That can I just say one thing. At one point,

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she imitates her mother's voice to her brother, Yes, and

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it is dead on exactly from a clip that you

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saw a few seconds earlier, and it's kind of heartbreaking

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because she's asking, She's like, she didn't talk like that

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all the time, right, And then she does her mother

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and it is a flawless impersonation, and you realize, yeah,

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because that's all she has. All she has are those

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clips of her mother speaking, So yeah, she can impersonate

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them really well because she's probably seen them a thousand times. Anyway, I.

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Speaker 2: Have to say I was really impressed with Jane Ment.

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Like I said, I didn't know anything about her, and

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I think she when she told when Mariska talked about

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her wanting to be an actress more than anything. And

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I felt bad for her because I feel like as

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a mother, as a woman, especially in the forties and fifties,

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you had to make a choice. You couldn't have both,

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uh and if you did both, people were going to,

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you know, punish you for it or criticize you for it.

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So I can see that, I mean when she's with

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her kids. When she was with her kids, I mean

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you could see that she absolutely adored her children. She

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did maybe yeah, you know, but she also wanted her

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career and it was you know, even today, but even

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more so at the time, you know, you had to

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create a persona, You had to create an image to

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become an actress. You could just be an actor, you know. Uh,

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not that she was talented. I don't think she was talented,

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but she created that image, She created that persona of

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you know, that whole image with blonde hair.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of clips that where she talks about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's it's the only way she could have

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a career, right, So it is sad to see that.

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Speaker 1: It's sad because I think the documentary makes it really

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clear she created this image because she felt that that

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was the only way she could move ahead. And then

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that image clearly consumed her. And the thing is, I'm sorry,

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but the thing is like with Marilyn, to whom she

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was constantly, constantly compared, and rightly so, because she was

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ripping Marylyn off. And I don't mean to be flipping

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about this, but Marilyn died before she got to the

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point where she was desperate about her own career. She

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died before that blonde bombshell image completely consumed her the

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way it consumed Jane. It's it's not I'm not trying

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to compare tragedies here, but I did walk away. I've

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seen all the documentaries about Marilyn, and yes there's a

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lot of tragedy and it's sad and this and that

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and the other thing. But Jane's story really I was like,

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that's just said everything about it's she just you watch

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it in the documentary. As she got dropped fairly quickly.

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She did one or two high profile films and then

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it was crap after that. And again, like Marilyn, who

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had a charisma and a talent and a nerve and

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a uniqueness, Jane didn't. Jane was not on Marilyn's level.

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So she never gave a great performance on film. She

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was never as charismatic as Marilyn was on film. And

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she might have gotten that chance at some point in

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her career if she had had better opportunities. But the

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opportunities got sleazy almost immediately. And she you could feel,

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and you owe those scenes of her playing the violin

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and trying to, you know, convince everyone of how smart

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and she was apparently very smart. And she could play

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the violin, and she could play the piano, and she

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could speak something like four lang, which is I meant

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to ask you, how good is her violin. Since you're

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a violinist, well, it's like medium level. She was starting

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to become a little more advanced. In fact, whatever she

302
00:16:58,399 --> 00:17:01,960
plays is kind of like middle of the old in terms.

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Speaker 2: Of of uh. And I laughed because what she played

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I played when I was a kids, So I got that.

305
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But I think she was. The thing about her is

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that she was, you know, she was trained as a musician.

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She played the piano. She actually I thought she played

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the piano better than the.

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Speaker 1: But I thought so too, And I'm not I don't

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have any air for that.

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Speaker 2: But it's it's very hard anyway. So I'm not saying

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00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,000
it's not. It's easy to play the piano, but anyway,

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it's more complicated, I think anyway. So she also spoke

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several languages, and and you know, I think she she

315
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her family tried to give her an education and and

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you know, and and then treasurically, her father died with

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her in the car.

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Speaker 1: Which is so sad. Yeah, and she was three years old, exactly, very.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very very The whole thing is very sad. What

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I got from that is that it was a woman

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with a dream but also caught up in a lot

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of things. And family early, very early in her life.

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Speaker 1: She had some bad taste.

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Speaker 2: I mean she was sixteen when she got married for

325
00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,400
the first time. I mean all that stuff. I mean,

326
00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:12,599
it's it's complicated, and I I feel bad for her.

327
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I feel said I because sometimes you have a dream

328
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and you have to put that away or you know, because.

329
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Speaker 1: You have evolve or whatever. And she wouldn't do that.

330
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Speaker 2: She couldn't do that. It was it was set. The

331
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whole thing was set. And then she tried very hard

332
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:31,480
to become, uh people, you know, a more serious actor.

333
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Speaker 1: To convince people that shet and they didn't want to

334
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hear it.

335
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Speaker 2: They didn't want to hear it, because that's how it

336
00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,400
works in Hollywood even today.

337
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Speaker 1: But moving on to Mariska's part of the story, because

338
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all of that was extremely well done and it really

339
00:18:43,759 --> 00:18:47,160
did give me a perspective on Jane Mansfield that was

340
00:18:47,319 --> 00:18:50,400
it was very sympathetic. Well, you know, I don't think

341
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she was a great actress, but I also don't think

342
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she ever got the opportunity to develop as an actress.

343
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Speaker 2: And then.

344
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Speaker 1: The story becomes so much about Mariska's quest for answers

345
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about her mother, and ultimately she winds up revealing something

346
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that had been rumored for a very long time, which

347
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:17,640
is that Mickey Harkitay is not her father. Mickey Harkitay

348
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,160
was a mister universe. He was a bodybuilder. He and

349
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Jane were madly in love and he was the only

350
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,279
decent guy that changed apparently that Jane ever hooked up with.

351
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He was madly in love with her and.

352
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Speaker 2: Gorgeous.

353
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Speaker 1: He was gorgeous. He was like a physique model in

354
00:19:34,759 --> 00:19:38,799
the nineteen fifties, which Lorenzo collects physique magazines from the

355
00:19:38,839 --> 00:19:39,559
nineteen fifties.

356
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Speaker 2: I have all these magazines from the time, a regional ones.

357
00:19:42,759 --> 00:19:45,000
I've remember seeing a ton of pictures of him, but

358
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I had no idea that he was her husband.

359
00:19:47,839 --> 00:19:50,799
Speaker 1: And that's apparently also a lovely man. That's the thing

360
00:19:50,839 --> 00:19:54,759
about this documentary. Now, granted she directed it, but her

361
00:19:54,799 --> 00:19:58,000
family comes off as just lovely people. Her brothers, her

362
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,359
older sister, her stepmother just comes off as the loveliest

363
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woman you could ever meet.

364
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Speaker 2: Right, Oh my god, she was.

365
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,839
Speaker 1: She was eloquent so and so, and she had such

366
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,519
nice thing to say about Jane, and she raised Jane's children.

367
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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and about the husband, about Mickey I was

368
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,319
really impressed how he really loved her. He supported her

369
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,720
even when they were kind of a part he was

370
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always with her and told her you know that, you

371
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:26,240
know I'm always you for you.

372
00:20:26,319 --> 00:20:29,039
Speaker 1: And all long story short is Mickey Harget is not

373
00:20:29,279 --> 00:20:35,839
her father, and she unfolds this story and she does

374
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,440
it so well. I do want to just stop. And

375
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,839
it's not this film. I'm recommending it not, but just

376
00:20:42,839 --> 00:20:45,559
because it has great gossip, our great story. She actually

377
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:46,720
is a good filmmaker.

378
00:20:46,799 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

379
00:20:47,039 --> 00:20:48,599
Speaker 1: One of the couple of things I want to point

380
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,440
out there are scenes of her going through boxes in

381
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,240
a storage unit, and let me tell you something that

382
00:20:55,079 --> 00:20:56,880
this is what I mean about reading between the lines,

383
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,680
Like nobody looked at that storage in that it was

384
00:20:58,759 --> 00:21:01,480
sixty years and I'm like, okay, there's a lot of

385
00:21:01,519 --> 00:21:04,400
pain there. They're all talking about her in the most

386
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,839
loving manner, but the fact that you never opened that

387
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,720
storage unit. Her golden globe was in there, right, there's

388
00:21:10,759 --> 00:21:11,559
a lot of pain there.

389
00:21:11,599 --> 00:21:15,359
Speaker 2: I was surprised that nobody went through those boxes and

390
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,400
everything for I was like, why now you're doing that now?

391
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,960
Speaker 1: Anyway, there, when she's going there, the sound pretty much

392
00:21:22,079 --> 00:21:24,160
drops out and all you can hear is her breathing

393
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,039
as she's gone through these bot and it's and I

394
00:21:27,079 --> 00:21:29,279
remember thinking, oh, that's so smart, because that is what

395
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:32,240
that's like. You're so alone in that moment when you're

396
00:21:32,279 --> 00:21:34,880
going to a dead person's effects, and all you can

397
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:36,599
hear is your heart beat and your breathing. Like it

398
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,759
was just a smart ring, right, I agree. And then

399
00:21:38,759 --> 00:21:41,480
then the next thing I want to pay her, you know,

400
00:21:41,599 --> 00:21:44,279
a compliment, is how she unfolded the story of her

401
00:21:44,279 --> 00:21:48,240
own parentage. It was really well done, to the point

402
00:21:48,559 --> 00:21:51,200
where when you first saw a picture of her, when

403
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,519
I first saw a picture of her biological father, I

404
00:21:53,559 --> 00:21:57,559
gasped out loud, here you are. And it's all throughout

405
00:21:57,599 --> 00:22:00,240
an hour of this film. It's Mickey Harkaitave and her

406
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,200
brother's Miklos and Zultan, and you just think, and her

407
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,480
name's Mariska, so you're thinking, you know, she's Hungarian, she's Hungarian,

408
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,480
Risco Hargatee, and then boom you see her father and

409
00:22:10,519 --> 00:22:13,119
then she reveals her two sisters, and you're like, oh

410
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:14,400
my god, she's Italian.

411
00:22:14,599 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 2: You look soally.

412
00:22:15,599 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 1: She's so Italian. And I didn't see it until you

413
00:22:18,799 --> 00:22:22,279
waited until this moment to reveal these faces her sisters,

414
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:27,079
her her younger Italian sisters look more like her than

415
00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,160
her brothers do. Well yeah, I mean they're all related,

416
00:22:30,319 --> 00:22:34,839
but she definitely favors that side of her family. And

417
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,920
the way she does that reveal it's just so well done.

418
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,319
It's so emotional when you get to it, because you

419
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,680
feel like you are going through this journey of her

420
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:45,880
asking all these questions. And the thing is, this was

421
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,599
not she didn't discover this. She's known this for thirty years.

422
00:22:48,839 --> 00:22:51,519
It's actually been a secret that she kept for thirty years.

423
00:22:52,519 --> 00:22:54,759
Speaker 2: Well when she found out it was it's just so bizarre.

424
00:22:54,839 --> 00:22:55,640
The way she did it.

425
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:59,079
Speaker 1: Is bizarre, the way she did anyway, we're just unpacking

426
00:22:59,079 --> 00:23:01,920
the whole thing, but I recommend it. It's a it's

427
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:05,240
almost two hours long. I think it's a really good

428
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:12,640
look at that time in Hollywood history. And I don't know,

429
00:23:13,079 --> 00:23:16,000
I've seen so many documentaries about Maryland, so this made

430
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,920
for a really nice counter to those documentaries. It was

431
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:24,400
someone who was working in the same milliear, but got

432
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,559
consumed by it even more than Marilynd was.

433
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:30,279
Speaker 2: I didn't think I was going to get some emotion

434
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,119
about it. I was very emotional and I actually cried

435
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,720
a couple of times, and I felt that it was

436
00:23:36,039 --> 00:23:38,839
so oh my god. I won't give it away, but

437
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,200
it was there's so many things that we're not talking about.

438
00:23:41,279 --> 00:23:44,519
You go watch it, but it was so beautifully done.

439
00:23:44,599 --> 00:23:47,480
I was really impressed with her. And then when it

440
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,680
says directed by her, I was like, wow, Yes.

441
00:23:50,279 --> 00:23:52,839
Speaker 1: She did a great job. And it's a great tribute

442
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,720
not only to her mother and to her adoptive I mean,

443
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:01,000
Mickey Harkitect comes out of this like the most amazing man, Yeah,

444
00:24:01,039 --> 00:24:03,759
but also to her siblings, and it's just a great

445
00:24:04,839 --> 00:24:07,519
family portrait of a very complicated family.

446
00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 2: Yes, they they didn't talk about a lot of things,

447
00:24:10,279 --> 00:24:13,759
but it was done with so much respect. Yeah, and

448
00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,640
just beautiful. I really enjoyed it. And my takeaway is

449
00:24:19,599 --> 00:24:23,559
it actually a lot about I know it's about risk mostly,

450
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,640
but I felt so much for Jane, you.

451
00:24:26,599 --> 00:24:29,039
Speaker 1: Know, someone who I really didn't know before.

452
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about it, but just the choices

453
00:24:31,279 --> 00:24:33,759
you make as a woman in the fifties. Yeah, in

454
00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:36,480
Hollywood and all that, and it's just yeah, I mean,

455
00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:40,359
you see Betty Davis and all these actors, their relations

456
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,359
with the kids, and it's always complicated. It's never easy

457
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:43,880
for kids.

458
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, yeah, Jane was wrong. I don't think she,

459
00:24:48,079 --> 00:24:49,759
as I said reading between the lines, I don't think

460
00:24:49,799 --> 00:24:51,839
she was the most responsible mother in the world. But

461
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:53,400
she did adore her kids.

462
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 2: She loved It was you can see it was a

463
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,240
struggle between her career and her family and children. Yeah. Yeah,

464
00:25:00,279 --> 00:25:00,920
which is sad.

465
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:01,759
Speaker 1: It is sad.

466
00:25:02,319 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 2: But anyway, I highly recommend it. I might even watch

467
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:06,400
it again.

468
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 1: I wanted to watch it again.

469
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:08,839
Speaker 2: I really liked it.

470
00:25:08,839 --> 00:25:10,759
Speaker 1: It was really well done. Okay, we're going to take

471
00:25:10,759 --> 00:25:11,920
a short break and then we're going to come back

472
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,920
and talk about another documentary. We'll be right back. We're back,

473
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,200
and now we're going to talk about another documentary before

474
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,799
we get into and just like that. The documentary is

475
00:25:21,799 --> 00:25:25,880
called I'm Your Venus. It's on Netflix and it is

476
00:25:26,079 --> 00:25:30,559
about Venus extravagan So who was a member of the

477
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,680
legendary House of Extravaganza. She appeared in the film Paris

478
00:25:33,759 --> 00:25:36,640
Is Burning. She was a young trans woman who was

479
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:43,519
probably a sex worker and was killed in a Manhattan

480
00:25:43,519 --> 00:25:45,960
hotel room in like nineteen eighty nine.

481
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 2: I think we should talk a little bit about.

482
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:55,839
Speaker 1: About who Venus was. Venus Okay, so, Venus was one

483
00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:00,640
of the more memorable people who appeared in the legendary

484
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,759
documentary Paris's Burning, which came out in nineteen ninety, directed

485
00:26:03,759 --> 00:26:06,279
by Jenny Livingston. We were just talking about this in

486
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:12,039
Dallas last week. Paris Is Burning is one of those

487
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:19,480
documents of queer life and trans life that everybody should see. However,

488
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,279
when I make that advisement, I also have to say

489
00:26:24,759 --> 00:26:26,200
that you need to take it all with a certain

490
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:28,400
grain assault. You need to understand that it has been

491
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,000
that as a work. It has been criticized tremendously over

492
00:26:33,039 --> 00:26:39,519
the years, and those criticisms are valid. Mainly, Jenny Livingston,

493
00:26:39,599 --> 00:26:44,160
the director of Paris's Burning, was a white Cis lesbian woman,

494
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,480
and she was making a film about black almost exclusively

495
00:26:48,519 --> 00:26:53,519
black trans people, Black and Latino trans people in Harlem,

496
00:26:53,599 --> 00:26:56,160
in the ballroom community. So she had very much of

497
00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,519
an outsider's perspective, and sometimes that permeated the film a

498
00:27:00,519 --> 00:27:03,559
bit too much. She had too much of a fascination

499
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,519
with poverty, born she really just loved I don't want

500
00:27:07,559 --> 00:27:11,240
to disparage her because I think she's a good filmmaker

501
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,000
and I think some of these were blind spots, and

502
00:27:13,039 --> 00:27:15,160
she has acknowledged them over the years.

503
00:27:15,079 --> 00:27:17,759
Speaker 2: But it feels like a visitor. It doesn't feel like

504
00:27:17,839 --> 00:27:20,319
she still exhibit. Yeah, it doesn't feel like she's supported

505
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,759
the commuty of that world exactly. It feels like you

506
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,920
brought your camera and you just filming the whole thing.

507
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 1: So Venus Extravaganzel was she was a member of the

508
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,640
House of Extravaganza. She was this young, pretty, soft spoken,

509
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:38,799
very very femme queen trans woman who was I don't

510
00:27:38,799 --> 00:27:41,119
think much more than a teenager at the time of

511
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,240
the maybe she was in her early twenties. I mean

512
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,680
she looked like she was about fifteen. And she was

513
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,319
memorable because, first off, there are scenes of her in

514
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,640
a very you know, humble bedroom where she talks about

515
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:58,119
her dreams of being a fashion model, of getting married someday.

516
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,440
And you have to understand that in nineteen eighty nine,

517
00:28:00,599 --> 00:28:02,799
any trans woman who had those dreams, it's like saying

518
00:28:02,839 --> 00:28:04,799
I want to be an astronaut, where I want to

519
00:28:04,839 --> 00:28:07,839
be President of the United States. But she wasn't illusional.

520
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:12,000
She really had these dreams for herself, and she's very sweet,

521
00:28:12,039 --> 00:28:13,799
and how she talks she talks about how wanting to

522
00:28:13,839 --> 00:28:18,640
be a mother and have children someday, and there's just

523
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:23,440
something very charismatic about her, very sweet, very soft spoken.

524
00:28:23,519 --> 00:28:26,480
But what she's really known for is that scene on

525
00:28:26,519 --> 00:28:29,839
the outside where she's she says, you want to talk

526
00:28:29,839 --> 00:28:32,319
about reading, Let's talk about reading. Touch this skin, touch

527
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:37,200
all of this skin, darling became Those lines are as

528
00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:41,519
legendary as crysal of Beajia's read. It's it's seminal in

529
00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:43,559
the in the history of queer people, in the history

530
00:28:43,599 --> 00:28:44,839
of dragon, history of trend.

531
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:46,079
Speaker 2: And that line.

532
00:28:46,119 --> 00:28:47,599
Speaker 1: You don't hear it as much as you used to,

533
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,400
but used to hear it on drag Race all the time.

534
00:28:49,519 --> 00:28:51,920
Touch this skin, touch all of this skin, darling. You

535
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,880
can't handle it. So that's the background on Venus. She

536
00:28:57,759 --> 00:29:01,039
her death was announced in the film. They have footage

537
00:29:01,039 --> 00:29:02,440
of her, and then by the end of the film

538
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:03,400
they announced.

539
00:29:03,039 --> 00:29:05,119
Speaker 2: That she died because she died so suddenly.

540
00:29:05,119 --> 00:29:07,079
Speaker 1: She died very suddenly, and she was murdered, and they

541
00:29:07,119 --> 00:29:11,039
interview her house mother who talks about her Anngie extravagance,

542
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:16,480
and tragically Angie also died because uh, you know, AIDS

543
00:29:16,559 --> 00:29:19,119
was ravaging the community at the time. So Angie died

544
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,920
not long after that of AIDS complications. So that's who

545
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,039
Venus was. She has become legendary over the years, like

546
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:31,960
so many trans women who died young, a legend was

547
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,440
built around her. So she's very well known in the

548
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:40,000
ballroom community, in the trans community, in the drag community.

549
00:29:40,559 --> 00:29:43,759
Speaker 2: She I think she represents that that dream, that hope

550
00:29:43,799 --> 00:29:47,319
that you will become something exactly when she talks about

551
00:29:47,359 --> 00:29:48,960
as you said the scene in in the in the

552
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,799
I think in the kitchen or something, I think with

553
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,960
her grandmother's house. Anyway, she's she talks about, I want

554
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:58,680
to be a wife. I want to be, you know,

555
00:29:59,039 --> 00:30:02,000
a good wife, and you know, all these things about

556
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,079
being you know, a woman at the time, right like

557
00:30:05,119 --> 00:30:06,880
I want to cook, I want to clean, I want

558
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,039
to have a beautiful home, I want to have things.

559
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:11,920
It's just, you know, you can tell that that she

560
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:13,799
just wants to be a woman.

561
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: Right, just be what I live that life, to live

562
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:17,759
that life. But it wasn't.

563
00:30:19,319 --> 00:30:22,359
Speaker 2: But but you know, and and it's taken away from you,

564
00:30:22,359 --> 00:30:24,519
your your dreams and hope like like so many people

565
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,640
at the time, and it still didn't still now as

566
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,400
a queer person. So that's the sad part about it.

567
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,839
And uh, if you watch the documentary parisis Bernie, you

568
00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:35,240
can never forget those images.

569
00:30:35,319 --> 00:30:37,799
Speaker 1: No, I mean, she's she's a little doe, She's this

570
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:42,319
little fawn, and it's just so tragic and sad. Now,

571
00:30:42,519 --> 00:30:49,039
I'm your Venus came out this year and it details

572
00:30:49,519 --> 00:30:54,680
the efforts by her living family members, in this case,

573
00:30:54,720 --> 00:31:01,759
her two her three older brothers two ope up her case,

574
00:31:02,079 --> 00:31:04,000
her murder case again to find out what they can

575
00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:07,160
what they can about it, and to get her name

576
00:31:07,279 --> 00:31:11,640
changed on her death certificate to reflect her chosen name

577
00:31:11,839 --> 00:31:18,039
instead of her dead name. Now that's very poignant. And

578
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,200
as soon as you meet her brothers, there are three,

579
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:27,240
like late fifties, early sixties, total bottabing Jersey City guys.

580
00:31:27,839 --> 00:31:31,359
Her family was Italian and Puerto Rican, And of course

581
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,400
the first question that arises when you meet and they're

582
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,000
also supportive and my sister, and we want to do

583
00:31:38,079 --> 00:31:39,960
this for her, We want to do this for Venus.

584
00:31:40,519 --> 00:31:43,759
But of course the very first question that arises is, well,

585
00:31:43,759 --> 00:31:46,839
why was Venus in the ball community at all? If

586
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,480
you guys, because that's the thing about the ball room community,

587
00:31:50,599 --> 00:31:52,960
especially back then it was a haven for people who

588
00:31:53,039 --> 00:31:55,359
were kicked out of their homes who had no family.

589
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,640
That's why they're called mothers. That's why they all take

590
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,839
the same last name. It's because these are queer people

591
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,039
choosing a family after their own families rejected them.

592
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,759
Speaker 2: It's a classic example of queer people not being accepted

593
00:32:09,759 --> 00:32:13,200
by the family and having to find a life somewhere else,

594
00:32:14,119 --> 00:32:16,960
which is most of the time, right. You know, you

595
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:18,880
you know your family don't want to see you anymore.

596
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,720
They just don't want to see you anymore, or or

597
00:32:21,799 --> 00:32:23,640
I don't know, if family doesn't want to see you anymore,

598
00:32:24,079 --> 00:32:25,839
and you have to leave and move. And that's why

599
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:28,680
so many people, queer people move and live by themselves

600
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,880
somewhere else. And then with a ball commut especially, you know,

601
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,839
you have your ballroom family, and you have your biological family,

602
00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,000
and sometimes you know, you don't have to support your

603
00:32:38,119 --> 00:32:41,039
biological family anymore, and you have to rely on other people.

604
00:32:41,039 --> 00:32:44,039
You have to rely on your friends. I didn't have

605
00:32:44,119 --> 00:32:47,359
to go through that in my life, but I did

606
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,799
have to hide a lot of things when I was

607
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,279
We had different upbringings in a way, I had to

608
00:32:53,359 --> 00:32:56,359
hide who I was for a long time, and now

609
00:32:56,519 --> 00:32:58,720
all I had were my friends. You know, I would

610
00:32:58,759 --> 00:33:00,519
go out and, like to my parents say, I would

611
00:33:00,519 --> 00:33:02,279
go someplace and go to the movies, but then I

612
00:33:02,319 --> 00:33:04,640
would go to a disco or bar, gay bar or

613
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,920
whatever with my friends. So I had my friends, and

614
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,279
that was kind of like my second family, my kind

615
00:33:11,279 --> 00:33:15,319
of my my ballroom kind of family. So I I understand.

616
00:33:16,039 --> 00:33:21,359
So I was very curious to watch the documentary. I

617
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,440
was very angry at some points with it because I

618
00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:28,359
few right from the get go, you know, the first scenes,

619
00:33:28,599 --> 00:33:32,480
the brothers are talking about her, and it's you know,

620
00:33:33,039 --> 00:33:35,359
very easily come out of their mouth. She oh she

621
00:33:35,359 --> 00:33:37,880
she she she she, my sister, my sister, my sister,

622
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,160
my sister, And it just to me didn't sound natural.

623
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,079
Speaker 1: They were trying so hard, they were trying.

624
00:33:44,839 --> 00:33:47,039
Speaker 2: So hard to be she she she she, my sister,

625
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,119
my sister, my sister, and my sister. Was like, wait

626
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:53,480
a minute. I watched Parents with Bernie. Okay, ah, so

627
00:33:54,319 --> 00:33:56,359
right there, I was like, Okay, well, let's get going.

628
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:57,480
Let's see where this goes.

629
00:33:57,559 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: One the oldest brother tell a story about and now

630
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:10,119
Venus was slight and small and kind of delicate in

631
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:14,320
her in her the way she presented herself, so I

632
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,840
don't imagine that she was very good in a fight.

633
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,519
And he talks about physically abusing her, and he just

634
00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:25,800
tosses off this story about literally turning her upside down

635
00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:29,159
and banging her up and down when she tried to

636
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,039
come out as a woman, and then that story has

637
00:34:32,119 --> 00:34:34,239
glossed over. And I mean at the time when it

638
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,880
first I was like, oh wow, he's admitting this, Oh okay,

639
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:41,760
and then it just doesn't get explored the film. I

640
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:46,440
give those brothers credit. They are trying so hard to

641
00:34:46,599 --> 00:34:50,440
reconcile their past behavior and attitudes to try and do

642
00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:54,639
right by this family member. But the film will not

643
00:34:55,079 --> 00:34:58,760
let them unpack exactly what they did or how badly

644
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,559
they treated her. They just sort of gloss over it.

645
00:35:01,599 --> 00:35:06,079
Speaker 2: They talk about her, uh, the mother moving, kicking her out,

646
00:35:06,119 --> 00:35:08,920
actually shot her out, and then the mother eventually moves

647
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:14,159
to another state or something. Well, so she Venus ended

648
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:18,880
up living with her grandmother. So that's all, you know.

649
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,039
The director fails to explain why, why, why why did

650
00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:28,280
she have to move? Why did she doing? Yeah, how

651
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,280
did they react? None of that is explained.

652
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 1: It's like alluded to but never has the bravery to

653
00:35:36,079 --> 00:35:36,679
address it.

654
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,039
Speaker 2: If you all woke up one day and decided that

655
00:35:39,079 --> 00:35:44,559
you're gonna, you know, do good by your sister, Okay,

656
00:35:44,599 --> 00:35:48,320
explain what happened. Explain how you felt at the time,

657
00:35:48,639 --> 00:35:52,639
and what went what happened, we know nothing, Nothing was explained.

658
00:35:53,599 --> 00:35:55,719
They talk about how wonderful she is, and she she

659
00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,960
she and you know, and we used to have such

660
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,280
a great relationship with my system, my system, my sister

661
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:02,840
and I are like, all right, well, and.

662
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:04,639
Speaker 1: Then they're also telling stories about how they chased her

663
00:36:04,639 --> 00:36:08,599
down the street because they saw her wearing women's clothes, right,

664
00:36:08,679 --> 00:36:12,440
And then they I mean, the film wants to wrestle

665
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:14,400
with this, but like I said, it never has the

666
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,159
bravery to take it as far as it needs to go.

667
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,880
They they meet with members of the House of Extravaganza,

668
00:36:20,679 --> 00:36:24,199
and I mean, it is so sad and so poignant.

669
00:36:24,199 --> 00:36:27,880
We have spent so much time researching queer life of

670
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,440
the twentieth century, and especially when you get into trans

671
00:36:31,519 --> 00:36:37,800
life and black and LATINX trans life, people just freaking disappear.

672
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,599
They just disappear so and there's no record, there's no

673
00:36:41,679 --> 00:36:44,440
way of finding them because people didn't use their you know,

674
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,559
their given names or their legal name or whatever. So

675
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,760
there's no one from the House of Extravaganza. I mean,

676
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,400
at one point, Hector Extravaganza shows up and I'm like,

677
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,480
why wasn't he in this movie? Did you notice that

678
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:01,280
Hector Extravaganza is probably the most member of the house

679
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,320
and he was around back then. He would have known Venus,

680
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,079
But he doesn't. He only appears briefly in the background,

681
00:37:07,679 --> 00:37:10,079
and it made me think, like, oh, I don't think

682
00:37:10,079 --> 00:37:12,159
the people in the house wanted to talk to them.

683
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,199
There is that one guy, one new Venus, who talks

684
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,599
to them and he is so filled with rage. The

685
00:37:19,639 --> 00:37:21,679
scene was actually uncomfortable to watch. It was actually one

686
00:37:21,679 --> 00:37:25,360
of the better scenes. But it ends with like hugs

687
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,480
and everything because they just don't want to have that confrontation.

688
00:37:28,599 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 2: Now that's the director's fault because he walks in to

689
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,519
talk to the brother. What happens is they finally found

690
00:37:34,519 --> 00:37:37,039
someone who used to be a friend.

691
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,199
Speaker 1: Right, it's very hard to find anybody.

692
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he shows up and you can see the

693
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,559
man is about to punch everyone in the room because

694
00:37:44,559 --> 00:37:49,039
he's hearing so much anger. Yeah, he's so fears with

695
00:37:49,119 --> 00:37:52,079
everybody and you know, so he has stories you can tell,

696
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,760
but there's no opportunity for you to talk. I mean,

697
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,159
everything is resolved very quickly. But he actually said I

698
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,639
thought very hard, hard for many time, for many years

699
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,840
or whatever, for a long time. What I was going

700
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,840
to say here, you know, well what I was going

701
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:10,679
to say to you guys. Uh, So clearly he knows stories,

702
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:12,920
he know thing. I mean, at some point the brother

703
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,679
actually goes to uh his neighborhood, the old neighborhood, and

704
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,119
he talks about like seeing uh Venus and and Venus

705
00:38:20,119 --> 00:38:23,840
see him and and runs away from Yeah yeah yeah.

706
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,760
So so like clearly she didn't have the support that

707
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:32,960
you guys are so eager to Yeah, exactly. And you know,

708
00:38:33,079 --> 00:38:36,440
I under I'm not saying that you can't like wake

709
00:38:36,559 --> 00:38:38,599
up one day and decide that you know, that.

710
00:38:38,559 --> 00:38:41,079
Speaker 1: Would have been an interesting film if they had at exactly.

711
00:38:41,079 --> 00:38:43,280
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not saying that you can't change your

712
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:47,119
mind as a family member and realize what what you did,

713
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,119
what you didn't do? Uh, and you want to change

714
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,559
things even even when the person is already dead. I

715
00:38:54,639 --> 00:38:58,079
it is possible, And you know, I'm not saying it

716
00:38:58,159 --> 00:39:00,320
can't be done, but you need to explain.

717
00:39:00,679 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: Two graduate film. I do want to note that the

718
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,119
director is Kimberly Reid, who is a trans woman, and

719
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,280
it wasn't a film that lacked sensitivity. It did its

720
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:16,199
best to try and tell Venus's story, but typical of

721
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,119
trans women of that time, especially uh Latina trans women.

722
00:39:21,639 --> 00:39:23,760
Uh there' she's not a lot of material there. So

723
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,119
basically they wind up using a lot of the stuff

724
00:39:26,159 --> 00:39:28,559
from Paris's Burning. And oh, I also want to note

725
00:39:28,559 --> 00:39:31,559
that one of the executive producers of this film is

726
00:39:31,679 --> 00:39:34,679
Jenny Livingstone, who is the director of Paris's Burning. She

727
00:39:35,159 --> 00:39:37,320
this is what I mean about her being aware of

728
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,360
the criticisms of her film, and she has spent the

729
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,760
years since working to sort of recast all of that

730
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,199
footage and and some of it is new footage that

731
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,679
I had not seen before, excuse me.

732
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 2: So they want to do good things. They want to

733
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:53,800
they One of the things that they decide to do

734
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:58,400
after forty years, mind you, is to hire a lawyer

735
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:03,039
because they can't find information. They can't find out anything.

736
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,800
So they finally hired a lawyer thirty years later. Okay,

737
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:09,840
they waited all and then they're in the room with

738
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,360
the lawyers, and I'm like, see, this is what we wanted.

739
00:40:12,639 --> 00:40:15,320
We couldn't get this from the police. Blah blah blah. Yeah,

740
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:20,079
but you waited thirty years to find to hire a lawyer. Now, okay, fine,

741
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,519
so they get some information not everything. Uh, I don't

742
00:40:24,519 --> 00:40:26,800
want to get into all details details. I mean, go

743
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,719
and watch the documentary. But again, and then they want

744
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:34,119
to change her name legally, which is also you know.

745
00:40:34,519 --> 00:40:37,639
Speaker 1: It's lovely and poignant. Listen, I think those brothers, I

746
00:40:37,679 --> 00:40:41,320
don't want to bat I think they're trying. I don't

747
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,119
think they're being as honest with themselves as I would

748
00:40:44,159 --> 00:40:46,079
have liked to have seen for that documentary. But I'm

749
00:40:46,079 --> 00:40:47,639
not going to bad mouth them. You know.

750
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,159
Speaker 2: I feel like they agreed to something and the director

751
00:40:51,199 --> 00:40:55,519
had to follow. If had the director really decided to

752
00:40:55,519 --> 00:40:57,039
show us what happened, you.

753
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 1: Know, they probably wouldn't have particided no.

754
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 2: They would they would have said, no, we don't want

755
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,599
to do it that way. So it's all this wonderful

756
00:41:03,599 --> 00:41:06,519
story about you know, woke up one day, we all

757
00:41:06,559 --> 00:41:09,119
woke up on they're collectively and decided that she she

758
00:41:09,119 --> 00:41:11,440
she she she sister, sister, sister's sister.

759
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:17,679
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, whatever. I think it's an interesting documentary. I

760
00:41:17,679 --> 00:41:19,639
think it's worth your time. If for no reason, then

761
00:41:19,639 --> 00:41:21,800
it gets to know Bainess a little bit better. I

762
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,599
do think it is like I said about the My

763
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,599
Mom Jane documentary, you have to watch documentaries and sort

764
00:41:27,599 --> 00:41:29,280
of read between the lines. So I think there is

765
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,559
worth in watching those scenes of those brothers and considering

766
00:41:33,639 --> 00:41:37,559
what you're not being told. And I also think that

767
00:41:37,599 --> 00:41:41,679
all three of them are in a lot of pain,

768
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,800
and maybe they deserve that. Maybe they should feel terrible,

769
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,800
but it's it's very clear that all three of them

770
00:41:49,039 --> 00:41:51,719
do feel terrible. So I have sympathy. I have a

771
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,880
little bit more sympathy for them than you do, right,

772
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,639
because they are trying to do something, even if it's

773
00:41:57,679 --> 00:42:02,239
too late, even if they're not being entire honest with themselves.

774
00:42:02,639 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 2: I mean, if nothing else, anyone watching this documentary will say, Okay,

775
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,159
maybe I need to change my attitude here towards my family,

776
00:42:10,519 --> 00:42:14,239
right and or a brother or sister. Yeah, it's a

777
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,400
great lesson. And I don't think they're lying. I think

778
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,280
they really want to do something now. But I wish

779
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,760
as a documentary they would give us more what happened

780
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,639
that back then? We still don't know. We still don't

781
00:42:27,639 --> 00:42:31,159
know why she y. We still don't know anything. We

782
00:42:31,199 --> 00:42:33,639
don't know why the brother how the brothers treated her.

783
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,519
Why not be honest about it. We don't know any

784
00:42:36,519 --> 00:42:39,760
of that. We have two friends showing up. There's a

785
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,920
second person showing up to who knew Venus, and you

786
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:48,119
can tell they're tiptoeing around what they're what they know.

787
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,199
Speaker 1: Venus was trying to escape a family life, and literally

788
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:53,519
they were the people she was trying to escape.

789
00:42:53,599 --> 00:42:55,679
Speaker 2: And you can tell that these two people they found

790
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:59,079
to talk about Venus didn't really want to talk about

791
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:03,320
or you know, kind of hesitant to review what she

792
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:04,679
said to them anyway.

793
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:06,519
Speaker 1: But I do think it's worth your time. Yes, yeah,

794
00:43:06,519 --> 00:43:08,800
it's not a very long documentary. I think it's less

795
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:12,440
than ninety minutes. And you know, you get to see

796
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:17,360
Venus and you get to see the pain of family

797
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,760
members who didn't treat her well. And there's a lesson

798
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,480
there because those men have to carry that pain with

799
00:43:23,639 --> 00:43:27,760
them to the grave. And if you have queer family members,

800
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,119
trust me, you don't want to carry that pain around,

801
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,639
So treat them well. All right, we're gonna take a

802
00:43:32,679 --> 00:43:34,079
short break and then we're gonna be back and we're

803
00:43:34,079 --> 00:43:35,639
gonna yell at carry Bradshaw for.

804
00:43:35,599 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 2: A little while.

805
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: We're back. I just said to Lorenzo, this doesn't have

806
00:43:41,039 --> 00:43:42,719
to go long because we hate this damn show. But

807
00:43:43,039 --> 00:43:45,480
that's usually when we go on for about forty five minutes.

808
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:47,320
Speaker 2: It's my favorite show, what are you talking about?

809
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,639
Speaker 1: It's not. It's not my favorite show.

810
00:43:49,599 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 2: Not my favorite show, but anyway.

811
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,159
Speaker 1: So we're talking about them just like that, and it's

812
00:43:55,199 --> 00:43:59,440
just a lot of narrative wheel spinning. And I cannot

813
00:43:59,559 --> 00:44:03,639
believe we had another freaking episode about Aiden, another one.

814
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,440
I can't even believe he showed up. I thought she

815
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:09,760
we just did this whole thing, uh huh where it

816
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,239
was like, oh, we can't, you're not ready, We don't

817
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,519
you here's the key. And I thought we were gonna

818
00:44:14,519 --> 00:44:16,400
freaking take a break. And he's there the next week

819
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:18,519
and it's all this drama.

820
00:44:19,039 --> 00:44:20,599
Speaker 2: It's all this shit.

821
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,719
Speaker 1: With Aiden, and I'm like, what the thing about this

822
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,679
show is sometimes I really feel like the writers are

823
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:28,880
not aware of how the actors, how the characters are

824
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,000
coming across. And we've talked about this before, This is

825
00:44:31,039 --> 00:44:34,360
what happens when the actors become executive producers.

826
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 2: They just have a.

827
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:38,639
Speaker 1: Lot of blind spots about how this is all coming across. So,

828
00:44:39,159 --> 00:44:42,599
for instance, Sarah Jessica Parker is completely clueless that Carrie

829
00:44:42,639 --> 00:44:45,679
Bradshaw's actually a sociopath with the borderline personality.

830
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 2: That's sort just to follow what you're saying here, I

831
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:54,719
actually watched I was on Instagram watching her name. I

832
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,840
can remember Charlotte's Rest and David Christ and David thank you.

833
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:03,719
I actually I was watching her behind the scenes trying

834
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,519
the costumes and having a lot to say about the costumes.

835
00:45:06,559 --> 00:45:10,320
They control everything right down to what they wear, right.

836
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,559
There's nothing creative what you speak about now, it's just

837
00:45:14,679 --> 00:45:18,800
giving these people a job and letting them do whatever

838
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:19,360
they want to do.

839
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:23,119
Speaker 1: So they they keep bringing aiden in as if this

840
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:27,480
is some grand love affair that we're all rooting for,

841
00:45:27,599 --> 00:45:29,960
and I'm just like God, they had no chemistry. He

842
00:45:30,079 --> 00:45:34,119
comes off like an absolute mess and and she comes

843
00:45:34,159 --> 00:45:36,239
off needy, like what and the.

844
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:40,519
Speaker 2: Laying writing because it's like they're very fragile. Their relationship

845
00:45:40,559 --> 00:45:44,400
is very fressuring. So how can we approach this, how

846
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:46,800
can we depict this all right, we're just fucking break

847
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:47,559
a window.

848
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 1: Every single week. I'm like, that cat is gonna die.

849
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:52,519
That cat's gonna walk out out to the street and

850
00:45:52,559 --> 00:45:58,679
die because well we're always leaving doors open and breaking windows.

851
00:45:58,760 --> 00:45:59,440
And oh that.

852
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 2: Poor cat, that's tap hunter. He's rolling.

853
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, twenty pound boys rolling around right in front of

854
00:46:04,039 --> 00:46:07,039
us anyway, just stupid, so thick with the window. Yeah,

855
00:46:07,079 --> 00:46:10,239
he throws a pebble like you used to do at

856
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:12,760
her old apartment that he would never walk into and

857
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,719
that's what forced her to buy this place. Like he's

858
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:16,719
so freaking controlling and weird.

859
00:46:16,519 --> 00:46:18,599
Speaker 2: And break her freaking eighteenth century.

860
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 1: So he brings meal glass and she has a typical

861
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,480
carry meltdown about the rainbows of the Civil War. And

862
00:46:27,119 --> 00:46:30,639
I'm just like, you two do not you should not

863
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:32,280
be together. You're toxic around.

864
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,079
Speaker 2: You can't even buy furniture, but you're worried about it.

865
00:46:35,159 --> 00:46:38,199
Speaker 1: Right, So the window, he feels like shit, and he

866
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,199
drives his truck up to Pennsylvania to go find an

867
00:46:41,199 --> 00:46:44,000
antique glass and he's having this old meltdown and then

868
00:46:44,039 --> 00:46:45,679
it turns out that he leapt with his ex wife

869
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:51,239
And just like last week, when I absolutely thought they

870
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:55,280
were heading towards a we're gonna we're gonna break up scene,

871
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:59,199
and she wound up giving him her key. Nope. She's like, okay,

872
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,960
well that makes perfect sense that you slept with your ex.

873
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:02,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you.

874
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:06,119
Speaker 1: Don't understand this. This is what I mean about being

875
00:47:06,199 --> 00:47:10,320
executive producers, because this is simply well, now we can't

876
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:14,239
complain about Carrie cheating on him because he cheated on her.

877
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:19,360
It's like when, yes, when Miranda had the had sex

878
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,880
with Jay while while she was in bed, I was like,

879
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,000
this is because of the bullshit bagels. They're just doing

880
00:47:24,039 --> 00:47:27,480
these stories to correct the times that Carrie acted like

881
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,159
an asshole in the previous show. So now he's cheated

882
00:47:31,199 --> 00:47:33,760
on her and she gets to be the grown up

883
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:38,239
one and actually listen whenever they do on this show

884
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,239
act or talk like actual adults. I'm like, all right,

885
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,039
well that's good. I mean her reaction when she said

886
00:47:44,199 --> 00:47:46,159
this is natural. I'm not going to freak out about this.

887
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,039
I was like, well, that's actually good. Then it turns

888
00:47:49,079 --> 00:47:51,679
into besides, which we never said we were going to

889
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,159
be exclusive to each other, and he freaks out on

890
00:47:54,199 --> 00:47:56,320
her and she's like, why didn't we have this conversation,

891
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,280
and I am screaming at them, going, yes, ussholes, you're

892
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,719
both sixty years old. Why didn't you have this conversation

893
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:06,599
Like this is the most useless relationship. You two do

894
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:11,000
not belong together. There are so many red flags, and

895
00:48:11,039 --> 00:48:15,480
the writers insist on ending it each time with some

896
00:48:15,519 --> 00:48:17,639
sort of kiss and promise and happy ending. I'm like, no,

897
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,280
these people should not be two together. And when you

898
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:24,559
write a sixty year old woman like that, where she's like, yes,

899
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:29,679
mister red flags, total problems, psychological issues, I will put

900
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,360
my entire life on hold and wait for you, it

901
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:33,840
just makes her look desperate as hell.

902
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 2: And the whole thing with the kid, they took him

903
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:38,280
all the way to the airport and then he has

904
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,960
a male to hear goddamn, I got some help.

905
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,679
Speaker 1: I mean, I get it, I get it. He's nero divergent,

906
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,199
he has psychological issues, and but I really don't think

907
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:55,079
these are things for these characters to unpack. Oh no,

908
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,679
I don't mean that they can't have family issues or

909
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:03,360
child wearing issues anything like that. But putting Carrie in

910
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,159
the middle of this story, it's like, no, this is

911
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:07,800
not what Carrie is built for. And That's why she

912
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,159
comes off like an asshole so much, because you're putting

913
00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:14,280
her in a story that's just she's not conducive to that.

914
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,679
She's a writer. She writes romance shit. She likes shoes

915
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:20,679
and shopping, and she has a lot of money.

916
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 2: And what happened to the guy downstairs and went? They

917
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:24,199
all happy and I.

918
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 1: Dropped off his manuscript for her.

919
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, wish would never happen. Right.

920
00:49:30,199 --> 00:49:32,079
Speaker 1: Actually, as a writer, Olvers thought the fact that it's

921
00:49:32,119 --> 00:49:34,159
typed out on paper, I'm like, Oh, that's so cute.

922
00:49:34,679 --> 00:49:38,639
That's no writing. I don't even get me.

923
00:49:38,639 --> 00:49:40,559
Speaker 2: Started on he's a major writer.

924
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:44,119
Speaker 1: He is cute, though, I gotta say, yeah, he's cute.

925
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 2: He's just annoying. The whole thing about could you read?

926
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:49,960
Do you want to read my chapter? Now? That would

927
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:52,719
never happen, that man as it would? No, No, that

928
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:57,440
guy just do that. Yeah, different levels here of welfare.

929
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,079
Speaker 1: Come on anyway. I just don't think the aid and

930
00:50:01,119 --> 00:50:07,039
stuff is interesting at all. Clearly the writers of this

931
00:50:07,119 --> 00:50:09,199
show think it is. I don't think they have any

932
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:11,280
chemistry at all. Say what you will about Chris and

933
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,039
oth uh huh, but Big and Carrie crazy chemistry. It

934
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,000
fueled the entire series.

935
00:50:17,119 --> 00:50:20,199
Speaker 2: Well, he died and they can't bring him back. Who knows,

936
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:21,400
maybe they will next season.

937
00:50:21,559 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: No, but and the guy downstairs, I actually do think

938
00:50:25,519 --> 00:50:28,039
she has chemistry with And it's just a perfect example

939
00:50:28,079 --> 00:50:30,559
of why you should have let these characters move forward

940
00:50:30,679 --> 00:50:33,920
instead of throwing an old boyfriend at her, because it's

941
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:36,320
just there's no interest in this at all.

942
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, they have this need to bring old characters. They

943
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,639
just brought Busy back.

944
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:43,599
Speaker 1: I don't care whatever.

945
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 2: She's a funny but at the same time, it's like,

946
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,880
my god, really, yeah, move on, all of you need

947
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:49,320
to move on.

948
00:50:49,519 --> 00:50:53,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking of, let's move on to some other characters.

949
00:50:53,599 --> 00:50:55,440
I don't think I have anything else to say about Carrie.

950
00:50:55,639 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 2: Well about Sema still Teema has no money and can't

951
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,360
afford driver. Can anything has to stick to train now

952
00:51:02,639 --> 00:51:03,559
what I.

953
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: Don't believe in any of that. I don't believe any

954
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:11,199
of that. No, Yeah, that's a pointless storyline. I'm assuming

955
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:16,719
it's going to go somewhere at some point. Lisa Todd Wexley,

956
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,280
she got a story, but again, it was like this weird. Okay,

957
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:22,960
it's a real problem. Your father died and you weren't working,

958
00:51:23,039 --> 00:51:24,920
you didn't take the phone call and all listen. All

959
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:30,519
of that's fine, But then it became about Jennifer Lawrence Is.

960
00:51:30,559 --> 00:51:36,360
That's the other actress who who Oh, I'm sorry, Jennifer

961
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:42,000
Lewis who I was halfway through it and I'm like, oh, okay,

962
00:51:42,039 --> 00:51:45,920
that's not his father, her father's wife. She just works

963
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:48,840
with him. But she becomes this whole thing and she's

964
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,320
in charge of the and what was what was the

965
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:53,239
point of that? Who is this character? Why are we

966
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:54,719
caring about her? What?

967
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 2: What? Show?

968
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: At least, it's way too dedicated about something I don't know.

969
00:52:00,079 --> 00:52:05,320
He never goes anywhere. It's just there could have been

970
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,679
some dramatic something there, but it just fizzles out and

971
00:52:09,079 --> 00:52:11,760
it's too much time spent on Jennifer Lewis.

972
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,559
Speaker 2: Who is what? Who is she? Why are we this

973
00:52:14,599 --> 00:52:18,000
show is like playing with paper dells. What do we need? Now?

974
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:19,320
Speaker 1: We're gonna put Jennifer Lewis in it?

975
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 2: Yeah right, We're just gonna add this, okay, because we

976
00:52:21,519 --> 00:52:23,239
want to tell this story now, So we need this

977
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:26,039
outfit here, we need this Kurt all right, So that's

978
00:52:26,039 --> 00:52:29,320
for the story of now. And then we throw everything

979
00:52:29,360 --> 00:52:35,119
out and then start again and there is no Yeah.

980
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 1: So it's Todd Todd Wexley's storyline leads to Charlotte's story,

981
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,280
and all they do with Charlotte is is that she

982
00:52:44,159 --> 00:52:46,079
melts down or freaks out about something in front of

983
00:52:46,079 --> 00:52:47,880
her family and they have to calm her down. That's

984
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:51,960
literally all of her scenes. Charlotte freaks out and her

985
00:52:52,039 --> 00:52:55,320
children or her husband need to calm her down. The

986
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:57,760
difference is that this time she actually does have something

987
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,519
worth getting upset over. Her husband has cancer.

988
00:53:00,559 --> 00:53:03,519
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Oh, I don't believe her hiding that from

989
00:53:03,519 --> 00:53:05,400
her friends. I'm sorry. No, she would have a conversation

990
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:07,280
with her husband about it, And I mean, I.

991
00:53:07,199 --> 00:53:09,159
Speaker 1: Think they're leading to that because at the point, I

992
00:53:09,199 --> 00:53:11,159
think the point is it's not right of him to

993
00:53:11,199 --> 00:53:14,239
ask that of her. It's cool, as she already told

994
00:53:14,639 --> 00:53:17,480
character told Carrie. And actually that was a very good

995
00:53:17,519 --> 00:53:20,079
scene showing that you can write these characters.

996
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:20,599
Speaker 2: It's right.

997
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,199
Speaker 1: You can write them like grown ups. You can give

998
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:28,039
them actual emotions and reactions that feel correct, and it works.

999
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:34,559
It's just very fricking rare. They all act like cartoon characters. So, yes,

1000
00:53:34,639 --> 00:53:38,400
she has this meltdown with Harry and then she's buying depends,

1001
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:43,360
which you know, speaking iPad elderly parents, so speaking from experience,

1002
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:45,400
so you can order that stuff on Amazon. She did

1003
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:46,840
not have to go to the other side of the

1004
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,679
city to pick it up. But whatever, they needed that

1005
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:50,320
scene and the.

1006
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 2: Whole thing with Miranda. What what they're trying to do

1007
00:53:53,679 --> 00:53:56,719
is create situations for these characters as if they were Miranda.

1008
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 1: Are we talking about her?

1009
00:53:57,559 --> 00:54:01,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, Miranda. Sorry, they create this situations with a girlfriend.

1010
00:54:01,199 --> 00:54:04,639
I'll get to that, as if they were characters in

1011
00:54:04,679 --> 00:54:07,760
their thirties, you know, going through stuff and dead. I mean,

1012
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:10,920
like Miranda worry about the dogs and that in the apartment.

1013
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 1: I wanted to slap her.

1014
00:54:13,159 --> 00:54:15,039
Speaker 2: What, oh my god, in my whole.

1015
00:54:15,119 --> 00:54:18,119
Speaker 1: They don't allow pets, but my girlfriend of friggin two

1016
00:54:18,159 --> 00:54:20,639
weeks has a dog. And all I can think was Miranda.

1017
00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:23,880
In nineteen ninety eight, you would have slapped one of

1018
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:26,599
your girlfriends for saying, I can't take this apartment because

1019
00:54:26,639 --> 00:54:28,000
this guy I'm dating as a dog.

1020
00:54:28,159 --> 00:54:30,679
Speaker 2: I know what.

1021
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Miranda thing just pissed me. That whole thing

1022
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:36,719
the sun right away. I mean, come on, I mean

1023
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:38,840
they've been together. I don't know how long they do.

1024
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:41,440
I didn't mind that. I mean, every once in a

1025
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:43,079
while they need to remind you that she actually has

1026
00:54:43,119 --> 00:54:46,159
a child, you know. Oh well, yeah, they treat Miranda.

1027
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:47,960
Speaker 2: Like they paid that actor he needs to be. He

1028
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:49,320
looks just like her.

1029
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:53,559
Speaker 1: It's really funny. But yeah, the whole thing with the

1030
00:54:53,599 --> 00:54:56,840
apartment and how oh I don't know my girlfriend has dogs.

1031
00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:00,960
What the hell you're you're basing real estate decisions on

1032
00:55:01,159 --> 00:55:05,480
someone you're dating that does not sound like Miranda at all.

1033
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,719
Speaker 2: And everything about it. When she would would carry and

1034
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:10,800
then with a girlfriend, she was looking like shit. And

1035
00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:13,519
now she's looking for a new apartment, she's weared, it's gorgeous,

1036
00:55:13,519 --> 00:55:16,760
birdery dress, and I pay attition to all these things.

1037
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:20,679
It's like there's no no, no consistency consistence here, you

1038
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:21,239
know what I mean.

1039
00:55:21,599 --> 00:55:23,639
Speaker 1: Like Anthony's boyfriend has a big dick. In case you

1040
00:55:23,679 --> 00:55:26,400
forgot that, the entire story wine for Anthony.

1041
00:55:26,119 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 2: Drink every time they mentioned that.

1042
00:55:27,519 --> 00:55:32,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna it's offensive to me, defensive, but you

1043
00:55:32,039 --> 00:55:34,320
you have one gay character on this show, and it's

1044
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,199
all about big dicks and getting fucked up the ass.

1045
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:39,360
That's the only thing you've given him.

1046
00:55:39,440 --> 00:55:41,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a line to buy bread because your boyfriend

1047
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:42,679
has a big which.

1048
00:55:42,559 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 1: Is silly as hell.

1049
00:55:44,599 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 2: Or nationally in New York, my god, they've seen hundred thousands.

1050
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:50,599
Speaker 1: You can see Dick's walking down the street.

1051
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 2: Seriously.

1052
00:55:52,639 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just all Anthony is just offensive to me.

1053
00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,199
It's like, why have a gay character if you're just

1054
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:00,480
gonna make dick and butt jokes with him. It's not

1055
00:56:00,559 --> 00:56:01,920
nineteen ninety six anymore.

1056
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 2: And I don't and Aid in these pants because he

1057
00:56:04,519 --> 00:56:06,320
can't mind pants and then the pants.

1058
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 1: Oh right, the hell man, I don't care about that.

1059
00:56:09,039 --> 00:56:13,960
But it's just everybody's such a loser on this show, right,

1060
00:56:14,079 --> 00:56:18,639
They're just like, there's just such a loser and so weird,

1061
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,719
and nobody has that's the thing, Like nobody has the

1062
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:25,239
kind of life you'd aspire to have. And these characters

1063
00:56:25,280 --> 00:56:28,199
actually used to be somewhat aspirational, but no, they all

1064
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:32,400
act like such losers, stressed out about stupid shit. My

1065
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:35,440
girlfriend's dogs. You're sixty years old, Why are giving a

1066
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:36,119
shit about that?

1067
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:38,519
Speaker 2: My experience is, when you have that kind of money,

1068
00:56:38,599 --> 00:56:41,920
number one, you very unless you you inherited from your parents.

1069
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:43,519
But if you work to get that kind of money

1070
00:56:43,559 --> 00:56:47,320
in New York. You're very busy and you have ambition, right,

1071
00:56:47,599 --> 00:56:49,880
you know, you're on the ball the whole time. I mean,

1072
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:53,800
it's not like, oh my god, you know stupid things. No,

1073
00:56:54,079 --> 00:56:57,760
my window. When she went on about the window, I

1074
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:00,079
was like, lady, you can't even buy furnish your for

1075
00:57:00,199 --> 00:57:00,960
this blaze? Right.

1076
00:57:02,519 --> 00:57:07,199
Speaker 1: No, I don't have anything else to say, and Aiden

1077
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:09,599
needs to go, but they just don't want to write

1078
00:57:09,599 --> 00:57:11,480
this guy out. I don't know how many red flags

1079
00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:15,480
he's going to throw up before she finally says, listen, yeah,

1080
00:57:15,519 --> 00:57:16,960
what's going to happen is she's going to sleep with

1081
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:18,960
that British guy and then Aiden's not gonna be able

1082
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:20,400
to handle it, and it's gonna have some big fun.

1083
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:22,880
And I hope she hit him with the frying pan

1084
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:26,440
when that happened. All Right, I believe that's it for

1085
00:57:26,519 --> 00:57:29,440
this week. We'll be back later in the week actually,

1086
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:31,679
with whatever cross of their eyes across our desk. Until then,

1087
00:57:31,719 --> 00:57:33,199
take care of herself, love you mean it.

1088
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:50,639
Speaker 2: Put bye bye,