Speaker 1: We're chom Lorenzo and this is the pop Style Opinion Fest. Hell, look,
welcome back to another edition of the Pso I am
the Tea and your tea low Tom Fitzgerald and I'm
here with the loan your Lorenzo, my cousin husband. No,
we're not. We're going to keep going. This is the
fourth intro we have tried to do this morning.
Speaker 2: This is what a holiday dotty.
Speaker 1: We're wildly out of practice. Yes, it is the Monday
after July, fourth weekend, and this is a late edition
of the podcast because of that, because there's never any
years of experience have taught us that there's never any
reason to really a podcast over holiday weekend because people
are busy doing other things.
Speaker 2: So they're at their hot dogs and with their families, friends.
Speaker 1: But we didn't want to completely skip it because we
know people like the and just like that recap. So
we're doing an early one on Monday, and then we're
probably doing another one on Friday. Correct which works out
well because this is like we are entering the dead
zone of like red carpet content. There's not going to
be a lot for the next week. July is always bad.
We always wind up looking forward to the Venice Film Festival,
but that's not for another month. But we have some
things to discuss before we do. I do want to
give a shout out once again to a Badge of
Pride in Dallas who hosted us two weeks or you know,
almost two weeks ago. Yeah, it was almost two weeks ago.
I go so crazy, it goes so fast for a
Pride event conversation regarding our book Legendary Children. But I
wanted to shout out because this was part of the
Badge of celebration. A Badge of Pride, excuse me, their
Pride organization was part of their month long Pride celebration
and they have a museum exhibit that we just want
to urge anyone who is at or near Irving, Texas
to go and see because it's still up. It'll be
up until September twenty eighth at the Irving Archives and Museum.
It's called Badge of Pride From Silence to Celebration, and
it's really a fantastic just summary of queer cultural and
political history of the last seventy five or so years.
And if you've read our book and enjoyed our book,
it is such a great companion piece to our book, right,
because it's like walking through it. So that's the Irving
Archives and Museum in Irving, Texas. It is the Badge
of Pride from Silence to Celebration exhibition and it's there
until September. And I not yes twenty eight Yes recommended
enough to people, right.
Speaker 2: And it's interesting because we're talking about this because I
actually text almost text the guys because you know, because
of what's going on in text's right now with the
flood and everything. Yeah, and I feel very sorry. I mean,
it's a horrible thing that happened. Anyway, So yeah, Texas
is going through a lot right now. But I was
thinking about the guys and anyway.
Speaker 1: You mean the guys who have organized yes, yeah, organized event.
Speaker 2: Let people in. I know, well you do an we
talked about them the Less podcast. But that's it. It's
a great exhibit and we highly recommend.
Speaker 1: It absolutely, all right, So we have a few things
to discuss before we get to and just like that,
And strangely they're both documentaries. We don't really spend a
lot of time you know. There. We have a pretty
wide purview. We've we've granted ourselves over the years. But
there are certain things that I kind of refuse to
talk about, one of which big one is music. I
will not do any sort of review or opinionating on
music because that is a highly specific, uh discipline. Yeah,
I don't feel comfortable doing it. Same thing with theater,
not it's not where my expertise lies. So I never
really cover Broadway or any of that stuff. And when
it comes to film, there are times when we've actually
had this conversation where we'll get a trailer for a
documentary and Lorenzo will be like, should I put this up?
And I'm like, we don't really, I mean, that's not
really our thing documentaries. But both of these documentaries actually
fall into, you know, some interests of ours, and they're
both on streaming and they're kind of the discussed documentaries
of this month. So the first one is My Mom Jane,
which is a documentary by Mariska Hargate the SVUX who
is a daughter is a daughter of Jane Mansfield, the
platinum blonde sexpot of the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties,
And it's on HBO. I'm sorry, it's on Max. And
generally I don't hold a lot of weight for celebrity
documentaries that are being produced by family members or by
the celebrities themselves. It's a very big thing now on streaming.
They just get celebrities to sit down and talk about
their lives and careers and they call it a documentary.
But I was actually very impressed by what she did.
She directed it, and Marisco harcaat is not as far
as I know, she doesn't have anything directing credits, but
she she really wove a tale and told a story
in a way that as it unfolded, she allowed it
to evolve on screen. So you think you're watching a
movie about and I think she thought that was the
movie she was doing was a sort of a look
a retrospective of her mother, her mother's career, her mother's
image and everything. But what it became as it evolved
or as the movie played on, was it was so
much more about her as a daughter, right seeking out
some sort of answers and meaning in her own life.
And you I was actually really impressed. Let me just say,
Marisco Hargitay. We covered her a couple of weeks ago
because she was promoting this, and one of the things
we noted at the time was that she is she
doesn't do a lot of promotional work because she doesn't
have to do a lot of promotional work. She doesn't.
She's like in that Ellen Pompeo mode where she's had
the same role for twenty years. Right, she doesn't have
to go out and do red carpets and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: Everybody loves her for that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all locked in. So she's not someone we've
spent a lot of time on that. We don't cover
Marisco Hargitay. I don't watch sv you wantn't watch any
of those shows, So I don't have an opinion on
her career, on her as an actress, any of it.
But I was actually genuinely pleasantly surprised at the sensitivity
of this, at this portrayal, and the her willingness to
portray her own pain. I think was admirable. Because well,
I'll stop there and let you Why don't you talk
a little bit about it, because there's a lot I'm
gonna want to write, right.
Speaker 2: Right, there's a lot that I didn't know about them.
First of all, I know very little about all of them.
I've seen hundreds thousands of pictures of Jane Mansfield. Of
course I know who she is, but I can't remember
I know, say, I can't remember any movie or anything.
I don't. I just remember her as this movie store,
you know, the famous picture with the Faila Loran, that
type of stuff, but like this bombshell of gorgeous woman sexy.
But that's about it. I didn't know anything about career,
and I have to say I know very little about
Mariska Argitade the same. I'm not a fan of her show.
You know, Laura in Order, right? Is that it special Victim? Yeah,
so I'm never if I was in a van. So
I think I watched one or two episodes maybe in
my entire life. But you know, she's doing well. I mean,
just look at her apartment faces Central Park. I'm sure
she's doing it well.
Speaker 1: Happening.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and she's sweet and all that. So I
didn't know much about it, and I was like, I
want to watch this, and I was surprised by so
many things. First of all, I really liked the angle,
the way she approached the entire thing right from the
get go, when she is talking to her family and
brothers and sisters, sister, well gus one sister. And it's
very interesting because it was the whole approach was like,
I have no memories of my mom, could you tell
me about her?
Speaker 1: And that's just hard breaking. And this is what I
want to talk about, is that it Jane Mansvelt again.
And I agree with you. I saw the girl can't
help it at some point in my in my classic
film Hobby Watching. But I never saw a little success
spoil rock Hunter, and I don't think I've ever seen
anything else she was in. She is an image but
not an actress to me, like that's just the way
it is. She doesn't have a lot of iconic film
roles to refer to, and she she had a messy life.
She led a messy life, and James Jane Mansfield and
her children, who are of course all senior citizens. At
this point, the focuses mostly on her first daughter, Jane Marie,
who she had with her first husband, and then the
three children that she had with Mickey Hargatee, which are
two boys, Mickey and Sultan and Mariska.
Speaker 2: Are we gonna go, Yeah, we are, we are.
Speaker 1: There is gonna be a it wasn't spoiled. I mean,
we are going to talk about the outcome of the documentary.
So if you don't want to know, we'll tell you
right now.
Speaker 2: But this was all.
Speaker 1: This was all in the press for it. She did
a huge interview with The New York Times like a
month ago and revealed all of this. So the documentary
does go in a direction, and it reveals some family secrets,
and if you don't want to know them, then please
skip ahead. I don't think we're going to be talking
about this for more than five or ten minutes after this,
so skip ahead, all right. So, and you can tell
those kids adored her, the ones that remember her, the
three oldest that and you can also tell I'll say this,
it's a brave documentary, and in terms of a star
telling basically their own story, it's braver than most of
those types of documentaries. However, I think you need to
and this is true of any documentary. I think you
need to look, You need to read between the lines,
and you need to question what is and isn't being
said or shown to you. And my point is this,
those kids, the three older ones especially, just absolutely adored her,
and when they talk about her, it is in the
most affectionate way. However, I felt they were clearly covering
for her. The older ones were clearly not going to
get into what were some fairly seedy aspects of her
life and her children and how she what she exposed
her children to. Like I don't know if you know this,
but the one kid, the one son, the woman dark hair,
he was attacked by a lion when he was like
five years old.
Speaker 2: I didn't know that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, because she she was a little flighty about
and she wasn't. I think it's very clear that she
loved her kids, and you can see it in all
the footage. She was crazy about her kids. She was
a loving mother, but she was also obsessed with her
own career right and willing to do just about anything
to pursue a certain image. And yeah, I think her
kids sometimes got in the way of that. They were
in the car that you know, I mean three of
her kid they almost got killed in the car cresh
with her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's not her fault about the crash.
Speaker 1: She was out. I don't want to say it's her fault,
but she the way she lived her life and her
pursued her career, she was exposing her kids to things.
Speaker 2: She had to drag her kids to a lot of Yeah,
they were on a road.
Speaker 1: In the middle of the night in the Luxei, Mississippi
because she was doing a stripping act in cabarets. And
that's the other thing that they don't get into is
the other thing she got involved with the Church of Satan.
It was very publicized at the time. She took morisk
to like Church of Satan meetings and was photographed. Oh
any of that, Yeah, she They don't show any of
that because they they didn't want. They give you just
enough for you to know that, Okay, it was it
was difficult being her kid because she subjected you to
a lot. But then they also protect her a lot
because they don't they did love her.
Speaker 2: And I thought, that's more about Mariska's journey and with
discovering her past and her family.
Speaker 1: I think the fact that she didn't know her at all, right,
which is really sad.
Speaker 2: It was said when she said, can you tell me
about my mother because I have no memories? I mean,
that's really really said. I also think.
Speaker 1: That can I just say one thing. At one point,
she imitates her mother's voice to her brother, Yes, and
it is dead on exactly from a clip that you
saw a few seconds earlier, and it's kind of heartbreaking
because she's asking, She's like, she didn't talk like that
all the time, right, And then she does her mother
and it is a flawless impersonation, and you realize, yeah,
because that's all she has. All she has are those
clips of her mother speaking, So yeah, she can impersonate
them really well because she's probably seen them a thousand times. Anyway, I.
Speaker 2: Have to say I was really impressed with Jane Ment.
Like I said, I didn't know anything about her, and
I think she when she told when Mariska talked about
her wanting to be an actress more than anything. And
I felt bad for her because I feel like as
a mother, as a woman, especially in the forties and fifties,
you had to make a choice. You couldn't have both,
uh and if you did both, people were going to,
you know, punish you for it or criticize you for it.
So I can see that, I mean when she's with
her kids. When she was with her kids, I mean
you could see that she absolutely adored her children. She
did maybe yeah, you know, but she also wanted her
career and it was you know, even today, but even
more so at the time, you know, you had to
create a persona, You had to create an image to
become an actress. You could just be an actor, you know. Uh,
not that she was talented. I don't think she was talented,
but she created that image, She created that persona of
you know, that whole image with blonde hair.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of clips that where she talks about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's it's the only way she could have
a career, right, So it is sad to see that.
Speaker 1: It's sad because I think the documentary makes it really
clear she created this image because she felt that that
was the only way she could move ahead. And then
that image clearly consumed her. And the thing is, I'm sorry,
but the thing is like with Marilyn, to whom she
was constantly, constantly compared, and rightly so, because she was
ripping Marylyn off. And I don't mean to be flipping
about this, but Marilyn died before she got to the
point where she was desperate about her own career. She
died before that blonde bombshell image completely consumed her the
way it consumed Jane. It's it's not I'm not trying
to compare tragedies here, but I did walk away. I've
seen all the documentaries about Marilyn, and yes there's a
lot of tragedy and it's sad and this and that
and the other thing. But Jane's story really I was like,
that's just said everything about it's she just you watch
it in the documentary. As she got dropped fairly quickly.
She did one or two high profile films and then
it was crap after that. And again, like Marilyn, who
had a charisma and a talent and a nerve and
a uniqueness, Jane didn't. Jane was not on Marilyn's level.
So she never gave a great performance on film. She
was never as charismatic as Marilyn was on film. And
she might have gotten that chance at some point in
her career if she had had better opportunities. But the
opportunities got sleazy almost immediately. And she you could feel,
and you owe those scenes of her playing the violin
and trying to, you know, convince everyone of how smart
and she was apparently very smart. And she could play
the violin, and she could play the piano, and she
could speak something like four lang, which is I meant
to ask you, how good is her violin. Since you're
a violinist, well, it's like medium level. She was starting
to become a little more advanced. In fact, whatever she
plays is kind of like middle of the old in terms.
Speaker 2: Of of uh. And I laughed because what she played
I played when I was a kids, So I got that.
But I think she was. The thing about her is
that she was, you know, she was trained as a musician.
She played the piano. She actually I thought she played
the piano better than the.
Speaker 1: But I thought so too, And I'm not I don't
have any air for that.
Speaker 2: But it's it's very hard anyway. So I'm not saying
it's not. It's easy to play the piano, but anyway,
it's more complicated, I think anyway. So she also spoke
several languages, and and you know, I think she she
her family tried to give her an education and and
you know, and and then treasurically, her father died with
her in the car.
Speaker 1: Which is so sad. Yeah, and she was three years old, exactly, very.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very very The whole thing is very sad. What
I got from that is that it was a woman
with a dream but also caught up in a lot
of things. And family early, very early in her life.
Speaker 1: She had some bad taste.
Speaker 2: I mean she was sixteen when she got married for
the first time. I mean all that stuff. I mean,
it's it's complicated, and I I feel bad for her.
I feel said I because sometimes you have a dream
and you have to put that away or you know, because.
Speaker 1: You have evolve or whatever. And she wouldn't do that.
Speaker 2: She couldn't do that. It was it was set. The
whole thing was set. And then she tried very hard
to become, uh people, you know, a more serious actor.
Speaker 1: To convince people that shet and they didn't want to
hear it.
Speaker 2: They didn't want to hear it, because that's how it
works in Hollywood even today.
Speaker 1: But moving on to Mariska's part of the story, because
all of that was extremely well done and it really
did give me a perspective on Jane Mansfield that was
it was very sympathetic. Well, you know, I don't think
she was a great actress, but I also don't think
she ever got the opportunity to develop as an actress.
Speaker 2: And then.
Speaker 1: The story becomes so much about Mariska's quest for answers
about her mother, and ultimately she winds up revealing something
that had been rumored for a very long time, which
is that Mickey Harkitay is not her father. Mickey Harkitay
was a mister universe. He was a bodybuilder. He and
Jane were madly in love and he was the only
decent guy that changed apparently that Jane ever hooked up with.
He was madly in love with her and.
Speaker 2: Gorgeous.
Speaker 1: He was gorgeous. He was like a physique model in
the nineteen fifties, which Lorenzo collects physique magazines from the
nineteen fifties.
Speaker 2: I have all these magazines from the time, a regional ones.
I've remember seeing a ton of pictures of him, but
I had no idea that he was her husband.
Speaker 1: And that's apparently also a lovely man. That's the thing
about this documentary. Now, granted she directed it, but her
family comes off as just lovely people. Her brothers, her
older sister, her stepmother just comes off as the loveliest
woman you could ever meet.
Speaker 2: Right, Oh my god, she was.
Speaker 1: She was eloquent so and so, and she had such
nice thing to say about Jane, and she raised Jane's children.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and about the husband, about Mickey I was
really impressed how he really loved her. He supported her
even when they were kind of a part he was
always with her and told her you know that, you
know I'm always you for you.
Speaker 1: And all long story short is Mickey Harget is not
her father, and she unfolds this story and she does
it so well. I do want to just stop. And
it's not this film. I'm recommending it not, but just
because it has great gossip, our great story. She actually
is a good filmmaker.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: One of the couple of things I want to point
out there are scenes of her going through boxes in
a storage unit, and let me tell you something that
this is what I mean about reading between the lines,
Like nobody looked at that storage in that it was
sixty years and I'm like, okay, there's a lot of
pain there. They're all talking about her in the most
loving manner, but the fact that you never opened that
storage unit. Her golden globe was in there, right, there's
a lot of pain there.
Speaker 2: I was surprised that nobody went through those boxes and
everything for I was like, why now you're doing that now?
Speaker 1: Anyway, there, when she's going there, the sound pretty much
drops out and all you can hear is her breathing
as she's gone through these bot and it's and I
remember thinking, oh, that's so smart, because that is what
that's like. You're so alone in that moment when you're
going to a dead person's effects, and all you can
hear is your heart beat and your breathing. Like it
was just a smart ring, right, I agree. And then
then the next thing I want to pay her, you know,
a compliment, is how she unfolded the story of her
own parentage. It was really well done, to the point
where when you first saw a picture of her, when
I first saw a picture of her biological father, I
gasped out loud, here you are. And it's all throughout
an hour of this film. It's Mickey Harkaitave and her
brother's Miklos and Zultan, and you just think, and her
name's Mariska, so you're thinking, you know, she's Hungarian, she's Hungarian,
Risco Hargatee, and then boom you see her father and
then she reveals her two sisters, and you're like, oh
my god, she's Italian.
Speaker 2: You look soally.
Speaker 1: She's so Italian. And I didn't see it until you
waited until this moment to reveal these faces her sisters,
her her younger Italian sisters look more like her than
her brothers do. Well yeah, I mean they're all related,
but she definitely favors that side of her family. And
the way she does that reveal it's just so well done.
It's so emotional when you get to it, because you
feel like you are going through this journey of her
asking all these questions. And the thing is, this was
not she didn't discover this. She's known this for thirty years.
It's actually been a secret that she kept for thirty years.
Speaker 2: Well when she found out it was it's just so bizarre.
The way she did it.
Speaker 1: Is bizarre, the way she did anyway, we're just unpacking
the whole thing, but I recommend it. It's a it's
almost two hours long. I think it's a really good
look at that time in Hollywood history. And I don't know,
I've seen so many documentaries about Maryland, so this made
for a really nice counter to those documentaries. It was
someone who was working in the same milliear, but got
consumed by it even more than Marilynd was.
Speaker 2: I didn't think I was going to get some emotion
about it. I was very emotional and I actually cried
a couple of times, and I felt that it was
so oh my god. I won't give it away, but
it was there's so many things that we're not talking about.
You go watch it, but it was so beautifully done.
I was really impressed with her. And then when it
says directed by her, I was like, wow, Yes.
Speaker 1: She did a great job. And it's a great tribute
not only to her mother and to her adoptive I mean,
Mickey Harkitect comes out of this like the most amazing man, Yeah,
but also to her siblings, and it's just a great
family portrait of a very complicated family.
Speaker 2: Yes, they they didn't talk about a lot of things,
but it was done with so much respect. Yeah, and
just beautiful. I really enjoyed it. And my takeaway is
it actually a lot about I know it's about risk mostly,
but I felt so much for Jane, you.
Speaker 1: Know, someone who I really didn't know before.
Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about it, but just the choices
you make as a woman in the fifties. Yeah, in
Hollywood and all that, and it's just yeah, I mean,
you see Betty Davis and all these actors, their relations
with the kids, and it's always complicated. It's never easy
for kids.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, yeah, Jane was wrong. I don't think she,
as I said reading between the lines, I don't think
she was the most responsible mother in the world. But
she did adore her kids.
Speaker 2: She loved It was you can see it was a
struggle between her career and her family and children. Yeah. Yeah,
which is sad.
Speaker 1: It is sad.
Speaker 2: But anyway, I highly recommend it. I might even watch
it again.
Speaker 1: I wanted to watch it again.
Speaker 2: I really liked it.
Speaker 1: It was really well done. Okay, we're going to take
a short break and then we're going to come back
and talk about another documentary. We'll be right back. We're back,
and now we're going to talk about another documentary before
we get into and just like that. The documentary is
called I'm Your Venus. It's on Netflix and it is
about Venus extravagan So who was a member of the
legendary House of Extravaganza. She appeared in the film Paris
Is Burning. She was a young trans woman who was
probably a sex worker and was killed in a Manhattan
hotel room in like nineteen eighty nine.
Speaker 2: I think we should talk a little bit about.
Speaker 1: About who Venus was. Venus Okay, so, Venus was one
of the more memorable people who appeared in the legendary
documentary Paris's Burning, which came out in nineteen ninety, directed
by Jenny Livingston. We were just talking about this in
Dallas last week. Paris Is Burning is one of those
documents of queer life and trans life that everybody should see. However,
when I make that advisement, I also have to say
that you need to take it all with a certain
grain assault. You need to understand that it has been
that as a work. It has been criticized tremendously over
the years, and those criticisms are valid. Mainly, Jenny Livingston,
the director of Paris's Burning, was a white Cis lesbian woman,
and she was making a film about black almost exclusively
black trans people, Black and Latino trans people in Harlem,
in the ballroom community. So she had very much of
an outsider's perspective, and sometimes that permeated the film a
bit too much. She had too much of a fascination
with poverty, born she really just loved I don't want
to disparage her because I think she's a good filmmaker
and I think some of these were blind spots, and
she has acknowledged them over the years.
Speaker 2: But it feels like a visitor. It doesn't feel like
she still exhibit. Yeah, it doesn't feel like she's supported
the commuty of that world exactly. It feels like you
brought your camera and you just filming the whole thing.
Speaker 1: So Venus Extravaganzel was she was a member of the
House of Extravaganza. She was this young, pretty, soft spoken,
very very femme queen trans woman who was I don't
think much more than a teenager at the time of
the maybe she was in her early twenties. I mean
she looked like she was about fifteen. And she was
memorable because, first off, there are scenes of her in
a very you know, humble bedroom where she talks about
her dreams of being a fashion model, of getting married someday.
And you have to understand that in nineteen eighty nine,
any trans woman who had those dreams, it's like saying
I want to be an astronaut, where I want to
be President of the United States. But she wasn't illusional.
She really had these dreams for herself, and she's very sweet,
and how she talks she talks about how wanting to
be a mother and have children someday, and there's just
something very charismatic about her, very sweet, very soft spoken.
But what she's really known for is that scene on
the outside where she's she says, you want to talk
about reading, Let's talk about reading. Touch this skin, touch
all of this skin, darling became Those lines are as
legendary as crysal of Beajia's read. It's it's seminal in
the in the history of queer people, in the history
of dragon, history of trend.
Speaker 2: And that line.
Speaker 1: You don't hear it as much as you used to,
but used to hear it on drag Race all the time.
Touch this skin, touch all of this skin, darling. You
can't handle it. So that's the background on Venus. She
her death was announced in the film. They have footage
of her, and then by the end of the film
they announced.
Speaker 2: That she died because she died so suddenly.
Speaker 1: She died very suddenly, and she was murdered, and they
interview her house mother who talks about her Anngie extravagance,
and tragically Angie also died because uh, you know, AIDS
was ravaging the community at the time. So Angie died
not long after that of AIDS complications. So that's who
Venus was. She has become legendary over the years, like
so many trans women who died young, a legend was
built around her. So she's very well known in the
ballroom community, in the trans community, in the drag community.
Speaker 2: She I think she represents that that dream, that hope
that you will become something exactly when she talks about
as you said the scene in in the in the
I think in the kitchen or something, I think with
her grandmother's house. Anyway, she's she talks about, I want
to be a wife. I want to be, you know,
a good wife, and you know, all these things about
being you know, a woman at the time, right like
I want to cook, I want to clean, I want
to have a beautiful home, I want to have things.
It's just, you know, you can tell that that she
just wants to be a woman.
Speaker 1: Right, just be what I live that life, to live
that life. But it wasn't.
Speaker 2: But but you know, and and it's taken away from you,
your your dreams and hope like like so many people
at the time, and it still didn't still now as
a queer person. So that's the sad part about it.
And uh, if you watch the documentary parisis Bernie, you
can never forget those images.
Speaker 1: No, I mean, she's she's a little doe, She's this
little fawn, and it's just so tragic and sad. Now,
I'm your Venus came out this year and it details
the efforts by her living family members, in this case,
her two her three older brothers two ope up her case,
her murder case again to find out what they can
what they can about it, and to get her name
changed on her death certificate to reflect her chosen name
instead of her dead name. Now that's very poignant. And
as soon as you meet her brothers, there are three,
like late fifties, early sixties, total bottabing Jersey City guys.
Her family was Italian and Puerto Rican, And of course
the first question that arises when you meet and they're
also supportive and my sister, and we want to do
this for her, We want to do this for Venus.
But of course the very first question that arises is, well,
why was Venus in the ball community at all? If
you guys, because that's the thing about the ball room community,
especially back then it was a haven for people who
were kicked out of their homes who had no family.
That's why they're called mothers. That's why they all take
the same last name. It's because these are queer people
choosing a family after their own families rejected them.
Speaker 2: It's a classic example of queer people not being accepted
by the family and having to find a life somewhere else,
which is most of the time, right. You know, you
you know your family don't want to see you anymore.
They just don't want to see you anymore, or or
I don't know, if family doesn't want to see you anymore,
and you have to leave and move. And that's why
so many people, queer people move and live by themselves
somewhere else. And then with a ball commut especially, you know,
you have your ballroom family, and you have your biological family,
and sometimes you know, you don't have to support your
biological family anymore, and you have to rely on other people.
You have to rely on your friends. I didn't have
to go through that in my life, but I did
have to hide a lot of things when I was
We had different upbringings in a way, I had to
hide who I was for a long time, and now
all I had were my friends. You know, I would
go out and, like to my parents say, I would
go someplace and go to the movies, but then I
would go to a disco or bar, gay bar or
whatever with my friends. So I had my friends, and
that was kind of like my second family, my kind
of my my ballroom kind of family. So I I understand.
So I was very curious to watch the documentary. I
was very angry at some points with it because I
few right from the get go, you know, the first scenes,
the brothers are talking about her, and it's you know,
very easily come out of their mouth. She oh she
she she she she, my sister, my sister, my sister,
my sister, And it just to me didn't sound natural.
Speaker 1: They were trying so hard, they were trying.
Speaker 2: So hard to be she she she she, my sister,
my sister, my sister, and my sister. Was like, wait
a minute. I watched Parents with Bernie. Okay, ah, so
right there, I was like, Okay, well, let's get going.
Let's see where this goes.
Speaker 1: One the oldest brother tell a story about and now
Venus was slight and small and kind of delicate in
her in her the way she presented herself, so I
don't imagine that she was very good in a fight.
And he talks about physically abusing her, and he just
tosses off this story about literally turning her upside down
and banging her up and down when she tried to
come out as a woman, and then that story has
glossed over. And I mean at the time when it
first I was like, oh wow, he's admitting this, Oh okay,
and then it just doesn't get explored the film. I
give those brothers credit. They are trying so hard to
reconcile their past behavior and attitudes to try and do
right by this family member. But the film will not
let them unpack exactly what they did or how badly
they treated her. They just sort of gloss over it.
Speaker 2: They talk about her, uh, the mother moving, kicking her out,
actually shot her out, and then the mother eventually moves
to another state or something. Well, so she Venus ended
up living with her grandmother. So that's all, you know.
The director fails to explain why, why, why why did
she have to move? Why did she doing? Yeah, how
did they react? None of that is explained.
Speaker 1: It's like alluded to but never has the bravery to
address it.
Speaker 2: If you all woke up one day and decided that
you're gonna, you know, do good by your sister, Okay,
explain what happened. Explain how you felt at the time,
and what went what happened, we know nothing, Nothing was explained.
They talk about how wonderful she is, and she she
she and you know, and we used to have such
a great relationship with my system, my system, my sister
and I are like, all right, well, and.
Speaker 1: Then they're also telling stories about how they chased her
down the street because they saw her wearing women's clothes, right,
And then they I mean, the film wants to wrestle
with this, but like I said, it never has the
bravery to take it as far as it needs to go.
They they meet with members of the House of Extravaganza,
and I mean, it is so sad and so poignant.
We have spent so much time researching queer life of
the twentieth century, and especially when you get into trans
life and black and LATINX trans life, people just freaking disappear.
They just disappear so and there's no record, there's no
way of finding them because people didn't use their you know,
their given names or their legal name or whatever. So
there's no one from the House of Extravaganza. I mean,
at one point, Hector Extravaganza shows up and I'm like,
why wasn't he in this movie? Did you notice that
Hector Extravaganza is probably the most member of the house
and he was around back then. He would have known Venus,
But he doesn't. He only appears briefly in the background,
and it made me think, like, oh, I don't think
the people in the house wanted to talk to them.
There is that one guy, one new Venus, who talks
to them and he is so filled with rage. The
scene was actually uncomfortable to watch. It was actually one
of the better scenes. But it ends with like hugs
and everything because they just don't want to have that confrontation.
Speaker 2: Now that's the director's fault because he walks in to
talk to the brother. What happens is they finally found
someone who used to be a friend.
Speaker 1: Right, it's very hard to find anybody.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he shows up and you can see the
man is about to punch everyone in the room because
he's hearing so much anger. Yeah, he's so fears with
everybody and you know, so he has stories you can tell,
but there's no opportunity for you to talk. I mean,
everything is resolved very quickly. But he actually said I
thought very hard, hard for many time, for many years
or whatever, for a long time. What I was going
to say here, you know, well what I was going
to say to you guys. Uh, So clearly he knows stories,
he know thing. I mean, at some point the brother
actually goes to uh his neighborhood, the old neighborhood, and
he talks about like seeing uh Venus and and Venus
see him and and runs away from Yeah yeah yeah.
So so like clearly she didn't have the support that
you guys are so eager to Yeah, exactly. And you know,
I under I'm not saying that you can't like wake
up one day and decide that you know, that.
Speaker 1: Would have been an interesting film if they had at exactly.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not saying that you can't change your
mind as a family member and realize what what you did,
what you didn't do? Uh, and you want to change
things even even when the person is already dead. I
it is possible, And you know, I'm not saying it
can't be done, but you need to explain.
Speaker 1: Two graduate film. I do want to note that the
director is Kimberly Reid, who is a trans woman, and
it wasn't a film that lacked sensitivity. It did its
best to try and tell Venus's story, but typical of
trans women of that time, especially uh Latina trans women.
Uh there' she's not a lot of material there. So
basically they wind up using a lot of the stuff
from Paris's Burning. And oh, I also want to note
that one of the executive producers of this film is
Jenny Livingstone, who is the director of Paris's Burning. She
this is what I mean about her being aware of
the criticisms of her film, and she has spent the
years since working to sort of recast all of that
footage and and some of it is new footage that
I had not seen before, excuse me.
Speaker 2: So they want to do good things. They want to
they One of the things that they decide to do
after forty years, mind you, is to hire a lawyer
because they can't find information. They can't find out anything.
So they finally hired a lawyer thirty years later. Okay,
they waited all and then they're in the room with
the lawyers, and I'm like, see, this is what we wanted.
We couldn't get this from the police. Blah blah blah. Yeah,
but you waited thirty years to find to hire a lawyer. Now, okay, fine,
so they get some information not everything. Uh, I don't
want to get into all details details. I mean, go
and watch the documentary. But again, and then they want
to change her name legally, which is also you know.
Speaker 1: It's lovely and poignant. Listen, I think those brothers, I
don't want to bat I think they're trying. I don't
think they're being as honest with themselves as I would
have liked to have seen for that documentary. But I'm
not going to bad mouth them. You know.
Speaker 2: I feel like they agreed to something and the director
had to follow. If had the director really decided to
show us what happened, you.
Speaker 1: Know, they probably wouldn't have particided no.
Speaker 2: They would they would have said, no, we don't want
to do it that way. So it's all this wonderful
story about you know, woke up one day, we all
woke up on they're collectively and decided that she she
she she she sister, sister, sister's sister.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, whatever. I think it's an interesting documentary. I
think it's worth your time. If for no reason, then
it gets to know Bainess a little bit better. I
do think it is like I said about the My
Mom Jane documentary, you have to watch documentaries and sort
of read between the lines. So I think there is
worth in watching those scenes of those brothers and considering
what you're not being told. And I also think that
all three of them are in a lot of pain,
and maybe they deserve that. Maybe they should feel terrible,
but it's it's very clear that all three of them
do feel terrible. So I have sympathy. I have a
little bit more sympathy for them than you do, right,
because they are trying to do something, even if it's
too late, even if they're not being entire honest with themselves.
Speaker 2: I mean, if nothing else, anyone watching this documentary will say, Okay,
maybe I need to change my attitude here towards my family,
right and or a brother or sister. Yeah, it's a
great lesson. And I don't think they're lying. I think
they really want to do something now. But I wish
as a documentary they would give us more what happened
that back then? We still don't know. We still don't
know why she y. We still don't know anything. We
don't know why the brother how the brothers treated her.
Why not be honest about it. We don't know any
of that. We have two friends showing up. There's a
second person showing up to who knew Venus, and you
can tell they're tiptoeing around what they're what they know.
Speaker 1: Venus was trying to escape a family life, and literally
they were the people she was trying to escape.
Speaker 2: And you can tell that these two people they found
to talk about Venus didn't really want to talk about
or you know, kind of hesitant to review what she
said to them anyway.
Speaker 1: But I do think it's worth your time. Yes, yeah,
it's not a very long documentary. I think it's less
than ninety minutes. And you know, you get to see
Venus and you get to see the pain of family
members who didn't treat her well. And there's a lesson
there because those men have to carry that pain with
them to the grave. And if you have queer family members,
trust me, you don't want to carry that pain around,
So treat them well. All right, we're gonna take a
short break and then we're gonna be back and we're
gonna yell at carry Bradshaw for.
Speaker 2: A little while.
Speaker 1: We're back. I just said to Lorenzo, this doesn't have
to go long because we hate this damn show. But
that's usually when we go on for about forty five minutes.
Speaker 2: It's my favorite show, what are you talking about?
Speaker 1: It's not. It's not my favorite show.
Speaker 2: Not my favorite show, but anyway.
Speaker 1: So we're talking about them just like that, and it's
just a lot of narrative wheel spinning. And I cannot
believe we had another freaking episode about Aiden, another one.
I can't even believe he showed up. I thought she
we just did this whole thing, uh huh where it
was like, oh, we can't, you're not ready, We don't
you here's the key. And I thought we were gonna
freaking take a break. And he's there the next week
and it's all this drama.
Speaker 2: It's all this shit.
Speaker 1: With Aiden, and I'm like, what the thing about this
show is sometimes I really feel like the writers are
not aware of how the actors, how the characters are
coming across. And we've talked about this before, This is
what happens when the actors become executive producers.
Speaker 2: They just have a.
Speaker 1: Lot of blind spots about how this is all coming across. So,
for instance, Sarah Jessica Parker is completely clueless that Carrie
Bradshaw's actually a sociopath with the borderline personality.
Speaker 2: That's sort just to follow what you're saying here, I
actually watched I was on Instagram watching her name. I
can remember Charlotte's Rest and David Christ and David thank you.
I actually I was watching her behind the scenes trying
the costumes and having a lot to say about the costumes.
They control everything right down to what they wear, right.
There's nothing creative what you speak about now, it's just
giving these people a job and letting them do whatever
they want to do.
Speaker 1: So they they keep bringing aiden in as if this
is some grand love affair that we're all rooting for,
and I'm just like God, they had no chemistry. He
comes off like an absolute mess and and she comes
off needy, like what and the.
Speaker 2: Laying writing because it's like they're very fragile. Their relationship
is very fressuring. So how can we approach this, how
can we depict this all right, we're just fucking break
a window.
Speaker 1: Every single week. I'm like, that cat is gonna die.
That cat's gonna walk out out to the street and
die because well we're always leaving doors open and breaking windows.
And oh that.
Speaker 2: Poor cat, that's tap hunter. He's rolling.
Speaker 1: Yeah, twenty pound boys rolling around right in front of
us anyway, just stupid, so thick with the window. Yeah,
he throws a pebble like you used to do at
her old apartment that he would never walk into and
that's what forced her to buy this place. Like he's
so freaking controlling and weird.
Speaker 2: And break her freaking eighteenth century.
Speaker 1: So he brings meal glass and she has a typical
carry meltdown about the rainbows of the Civil War. And
I'm just like, you two do not you should not
be together. You're toxic around.
Speaker 2: You can't even buy furniture, but you're worried about it.
Speaker 1: Right, So the window, he feels like shit, and he
drives his truck up to Pennsylvania to go find an
antique glass and he's having this old meltdown and then
it turns out that he leapt with his ex wife
And just like last week, when I absolutely thought they
were heading towards a we're gonna we're gonna break up scene,
and she wound up giving him her key. Nope. She's like, okay,
well that makes perfect sense that you slept with your ex.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you.
Speaker 1: Don't understand this. This is what I mean about being
executive producers, because this is simply well, now we can't
complain about Carrie cheating on him because he cheated on her.
It's like when, yes, when Miranda had the had sex
with Jay while while she was in bed, I was like,
this is because of the bullshit bagels. They're just doing
these stories to correct the times that Carrie acted like
an asshole in the previous show. So now he's cheated
on her and she gets to be the grown up
one and actually listen whenever they do on this show
act or talk like actual adults. I'm like, all right,
well that's good. I mean her reaction when she said
this is natural. I'm not going to freak out about this.
I was like, well, that's actually good. Then it turns
into besides, which we never said we were going to
be exclusive to each other, and he freaks out on
her and she's like, why didn't we have this conversation,
and I am screaming at them, going, yes, ussholes, you're
both sixty years old. Why didn't you have this conversation
Like this is the most useless relationship. You two do
not belong together. There are so many red flags, and
the writers insist on ending it each time with some
sort of kiss and promise and happy ending. I'm like, no,
these people should not be two together. And when you
write a sixty year old woman like that, where she's like, yes,
mister red flags, total problems, psychological issues, I will put
my entire life on hold and wait for you, it
just makes her look desperate as hell.
Speaker 2: And the whole thing with the kid, they took him
all the way to the airport and then he has
a male to hear goddamn, I got some help.
Speaker 1: I mean, I get it, I get it. He's nero divergent,
he has psychological issues, and but I really don't think
these are things for these characters to unpack. Oh no,
I don't mean that they can't have family issues or
child wearing issues anything like that. But putting Carrie in
the middle of this story, it's like, no, this is
not what Carrie is built for. And That's why she
comes off like an asshole so much, because you're putting
her in a story that's just she's not conducive to that.
She's a writer. She writes romance shit. She likes shoes
and shopping, and she has a lot of money.
Speaker 2: And what happened to the guy downstairs and went? They
all happy and I.
Speaker 1: Dropped off his manuscript for her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, wish would never happen. Right.
Speaker 1: Actually, as a writer, Olvers thought the fact that it's
typed out on paper, I'm like, Oh, that's so cute.
That's no writing. I don't even get me.
Speaker 2: Started on he's a major writer.
Speaker 1: He is cute, though, I gotta say, yeah, he's cute.
Speaker 2: He's just annoying. The whole thing about could you read?
Do you want to read my chapter? Now? That would
never happen, that man as it would? No, No, that
guy just do that. Yeah, different levels here of welfare.
Speaker 1: Come on anyway. I just don't think the aid and
stuff is interesting at all. Clearly the writers of this
show think it is. I don't think they have any
chemistry at all. Say what you will about Chris and
oth uh huh, but Big and Carrie crazy chemistry. It
fueled the entire series.
Speaker 2: Well, he died and they can't bring him back. Who knows,
maybe they will next season.
Speaker 1: No, but and the guy downstairs, I actually do think
she has chemistry with And it's just a perfect example
of why you should have let these characters move forward
instead of throwing an old boyfriend at her, because it's
just there's no interest in this at all.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they have this need to bring old characters. They
just brought Busy back.
Speaker 1: I don't care whatever.
Speaker 2: She's a funny but at the same time, it's like,
my god, really, yeah, move on, all of you need
to move on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, speaking of, let's move on to some other characters.
I don't think I have anything else to say about Carrie.
Speaker 2: Well about Sema still Teema has no money and can't
afford driver. Can anything has to stick to train now
what I.
Speaker 1: Don't believe in any of that. I don't believe any
of that. No, Yeah, that's a pointless storyline. I'm assuming
it's going to go somewhere at some point. Lisa Todd Wexley,
she got a story, but again, it was like this weird. Okay,
it's a real problem. Your father died and you weren't working,
you didn't take the phone call and all listen. All
of that's fine, But then it became about Jennifer Lawrence Is.
That's the other actress who who Oh, I'm sorry, Jennifer
Lewis who I was halfway through it and I'm like, oh, okay,
that's not his father, her father's wife. She just works
with him. But she becomes this whole thing and she's
in charge of the and what was what was the
point of that? Who is this character? Why are we
caring about her? What?
Speaker 2: What? Show?
Speaker 1: At least, it's way too dedicated about something I don't know.
He never goes anywhere. It's just there could have been
some dramatic something there, but it just fizzles out and
it's too much time spent on Jennifer Lewis.
Speaker 2: Who is what? Who is she? Why are we this
show is like playing with paper dells. What do we need? Now?
Speaker 1: We're gonna put Jennifer Lewis in it?
Speaker 2: Yeah right, We're just gonna add this, okay, because we
want to tell this story now, So we need this
outfit here, we need this Kurt all right, So that's
for the story of now. And then we throw everything
out and then start again and there is no Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's Todd Todd Wexley's storyline leads to Charlotte's story,
and all they do with Charlotte is is that she
melts down or freaks out about something in front of
her family and they have to calm her down. That's
literally all of her scenes. Charlotte freaks out and her
children or her husband need to calm her down. The
difference is that this time she actually does have something
worth getting upset over. Her husband has cancer.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Oh, I don't believe her hiding that from
her friends. I'm sorry. No, she would have a conversation
with her husband about it, And I mean, I.
Speaker 1: Think they're leading to that because at the point, I
think the point is it's not right of him to
ask that of her. It's cool, as she already told
character told Carrie. And actually that was a very good
scene showing that you can write these characters.
Speaker 2: It's right.
Speaker 1: You can write them like grown ups. You can give
them actual emotions and reactions that feel correct, and it works.
It's just very fricking rare. They all act like cartoon characters. So, yes,
she has this meltdown with Harry and then she's buying depends,
which you know, speaking iPad elderly parents, so speaking from experience,
so you can order that stuff on Amazon. She did
not have to go to the other side of the
city to pick it up. But whatever, they needed that
scene and the.
Speaker 2: Whole thing with Miranda. What what they're trying to do
is create situations for these characters as if they were Miranda.
Speaker 1: Are we talking about her?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Miranda. Sorry, they create this situations with a girlfriend.
I'll get to that, as if they were characters in
their thirties, you know, going through stuff and dead. I mean,
like Miranda worry about the dogs and that in the apartment.
Speaker 1: I wanted to slap her.
Speaker 2: What, oh my god, in my whole.
Speaker 1: They don't allow pets, but my girlfriend of friggin two
weeks has a dog. And all I can think was Miranda.
In nineteen ninety eight, you would have slapped one of
your girlfriends for saying, I can't take this apartment because
this guy I'm dating as a dog.
Speaker 2: I know what.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Miranda thing just pissed me. That whole thing
the sun right away. I mean, come on, I mean
they've been together. I don't know how long they do.
I didn't mind that. I mean, every once in a
while they need to remind you that she actually has
a child, you know. Oh well, yeah, they treat Miranda.
Speaker 2: Like they paid that actor he needs to be. He
looks just like her.
Speaker 1: It's really funny. But yeah, the whole thing with the
apartment and how oh I don't know my girlfriend has dogs.
What the hell you're you're basing real estate decisions on
someone you're dating that does not sound like Miranda at all.
Speaker 2: And everything about it. When she would would carry and
then with a girlfriend, she was looking like shit. And
now she's looking for a new apartment, she's weared, it's gorgeous,
birdery dress, and I pay attition to all these things.
It's like there's no no, no consistency consistence here, you
know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Like Anthony's boyfriend has a big dick. In case you
forgot that, the entire story wine for Anthony.
Speaker 2: Drink every time they mentioned that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna it's offensive to me, defensive, but you
you have one gay character on this show, and it's
all about big dicks and getting fucked up the ass.
That's the only thing you've given him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a line to buy bread because your boyfriend
has a big which.
Speaker 1: Is silly as hell.
Speaker 2: Or nationally in New York, my god, they've seen hundred thousands.
Speaker 1: You can see Dick's walking down the street.
Speaker 2: Seriously.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just all Anthony is just offensive to me.
It's like, why have a gay character if you're just
gonna make dick and butt jokes with him. It's not
nineteen ninety six anymore.
Speaker 2: And I don't and Aid in these pants because he
can't mind pants and then the pants.
Speaker 1: Oh right, the hell man, I don't care about that.
But it's just everybody's such a loser on this show, right,
They're just like, there's just such a loser and so weird,
and nobody has that's the thing, Like nobody has the
kind of life you'd aspire to have. And these characters
actually used to be somewhat aspirational, but no, they all
act like such losers, stressed out about stupid shit. My
girlfriend's dogs. You're sixty years old, Why are giving a
shit about that?
Speaker 2: My experience is, when you have that kind of money,
number one, you very unless you you inherited from your parents.
But if you work to get that kind of money
in New York. You're very busy and you have ambition, right,
you know, you're on the ball the whole time. I mean,
it's not like, oh my god, you know stupid things. No,
my window. When she went on about the window, I
was like, lady, you can't even buy furnish your for
this blaze? Right.
Speaker 1: No, I don't have anything else to say, and Aiden
needs to go, but they just don't want to write
this guy out. I don't know how many red flags
he's going to throw up before she finally says, listen, yeah,
what's going to happen is she's going to sleep with
that British guy and then Aiden's not gonna be able
to handle it, and it's gonna have some big fun.
And I hope she hit him with the frying pan
when that happened. All Right, I believe that's it for
this week. We'll be back later in the week actually,
with whatever cross of their eyes across our desk. Until then,
take care of herself, love you mean it.
Speaker 2: Put bye bye,