WEBVTT 1 00:00:21.320 --> 00:00:25.719 Hello, and welcome to Western Sieve. Today's bonus author Interview, 2 00:00:25.800 --> 00:00:30.239 I sit down with author and renowned historian Tom McMillan 3 00:00:30.559 --> 00:00:34.039 to talk about his most recent book, The Year That 4 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:39.439 Made America From Rebellion to Independence seventeen seventy five to 5 00:00:39.520 --> 00:00:44.079 seventeen seventy six. In the preface, Tom writes quotes less 6 00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:47.679 than a year after American colonists declared their independence from England, 7 00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:52.679 John Adams, the brilliant but cantankerous congressional Sage, sent a 8 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:57.240 message for future generations that was equal parts heartfelt and skeptical. 9 00:00:58.000 --> 00:01:01.079 In a letter to his wife, Abigail on April twenty sixth, 10 00:01:01.359 --> 00:01:06.239 seventeen seventeen seven, Adams wrote, quote, Posterity, you will never 11 00:01:06.280 --> 00:01:08.640 know how much it costs the present generation to preserve 12 00:01:08.680 --> 00:01:11.400 your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it. 13 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:15.000 If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that 14 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:17.640 I ever took half the pains to preserve it. 15 00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:19.560 End quote. 16 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:22.879 It's those sorts of quotations that make me feel a 17 00:01:22.879 --> 00:01:28.120 little pang of I guess, disappointment in today's society. But 18 00:01:28.120 --> 00:01:31.000 at the same time it echoes the importance of this 19 00:01:31.159 --> 00:01:33.319 year back through the centuries. Now, I will tell you 20 00:01:33.840 --> 00:01:37.599 I have read this excellent book, my mister McMillan, and 21 00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:43.480 it is a perfect encapsulation of the importance of studying 22 00:01:43.560 --> 00:01:48.799 American history. Lest we forget it. His book goes into 23 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:53.000 great detail to explain why July fourth shouldn't be the holiday, 24 00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:57.359 the entire year should be the holiday. Just like the 25 00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:02.799 old saying. Goes the works on cracking the stone for years, 26 00:02:03.400 --> 00:02:06.120 and one day, as he lands the final blow, striking 27 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:08.560 it in half, a person walks by and remarks, wow, 28 00:02:09.520 --> 00:02:12.759 the strong man. That is because he didn't see all 29 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:16.879 the thousands and thousands of strikes that came before. You 30 00:02:16.879 --> 00:02:20.159 could think the same way about the American independence movement. 31 00:02:21.159 --> 00:02:26.120 It was the result of thousands of tiny actions, not 32 00:02:26.280 --> 00:02:29.400 the decisions of a couple of men over a handful 33 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:33.599 of hours. But this was the culmination of a year 34 00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:38.759 that truly did make America. I highly recommend the book. 35 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:42.439 If you're listening to this podcast, it's available right now. 36 00:02:43.039 --> 00:02:44.919 You could click the link in the show notes and 37 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:46.560 pick up a copy, or you could pick a copy 38 00:02:46.599 --> 00:02:52.159 wherever you want. And so, after these messages, without further ado, 39 00:02:52.199 --> 00:03:07.080 here's my interview Historian Tom McMillan, The Year that Made America. 40 00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:20.960 All Right, welcome back. As I mentioned moments ago, I'm 41 00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:23.960 sitting down here with historian Tom McMillan talking about his 42 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:27.080 most recent book, The Year that Made America From Rebellion 43 00:03:27.159 --> 00:03:29.960 to Independence seventeen seventy five to seventeen seventy six. Well, 44 00:03:30.000 --> 00:03:32.759 these are years that I think we're all familiar with 45 00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:35.599 from our yearly Fourth of July celebrations, but I think 46 00:03:35.639 --> 00:03:37.360 that there's a lot more to it that we can 47 00:03:37.400 --> 00:03:42.560 get into today to explain all the important events that 48 00:03:42.639 --> 00:03:44.759 make this not just one day, not just the fourth 49 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:46.639 of July, and as we can talk about that's not 50 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:51.199 the right date necessarily, but why it's so much more 51 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:55.319 than just a day for celebrating parades and fireworks and 52 00:03:55.360 --> 00:03:57.120 so on and so forth. But so let me ask 53 00:03:57.120 --> 00:03:59.680 you that initial question, why is learning about the year 54 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:03.319 seveneen seventy five to seventeen seventy six just so important 55 00:04:03.360 --> 00:04:06.879 for Americans in general, let alone American scholars. 56 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:09.599 Yeah, Adam, and thanks for having me on. I really 57 00:04:09.599 --> 00:04:12.039 appreciate it. I was one of them. I was surprised 58 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:14.840 when I got into this how little I knew. And 59 00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:17.000 I'm a pretty good student of history. I thought, Wow, 60 00:04:17.040 --> 00:04:19.040 I didn't know any of this. There's so much focus 61 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:20.959 on the fourth of July. As you said, we think 62 00:04:21.000 --> 00:04:24.120 everything happened on that date, and well, I detail a 63 00:04:24.120 --> 00:04:26.680 lot of things that happened in the revolution during this period. 64 00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:28.879 I focus on the first seven or eight months of 65 00:04:28.920 --> 00:04:32.399 seventeen seventy six and the political struggle really to get 66 00:04:32.439 --> 00:04:35.399 to the declaration. It was a battle. I mean in 67 00:04:35.879 --> 00:04:38.839 mid June six colonies still were not there to vote 68 00:04:38.839 --> 00:04:41.879 for independence. So this whole process, which I know it 69 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:45.199 started much earlier, but I take it from January of 70 00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:49.120 seventeen seventy six through about August of the debates and 71 00:04:49.160 --> 00:04:52.560 the struggles and getting there, and it was, it was, 72 00:04:52.959 --> 00:04:55.199 It always would have happened, but it came close to 73 00:04:55.279 --> 00:04:57.839 not happening when it did. And I was just fascinated 74 00:04:58.920 --> 00:05:01.680 at the circumstances that led to that, And I thought 75 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:03.800 people would be interested because these are things that we 76 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:06.000 are not taught. We skim right over the Fourth of 77 00:05:06.040 --> 00:05:08.120 July and get into the rest of the revolutionary where 78 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:09.360 and don't get these things. 79 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:13.399 Yeah, I think sometimes, especially the way it's presented in 80 00:05:13.439 --> 00:05:15.839 a lot of sources and textbooks, is just that you know, 81 00:05:15.879 --> 00:05:18.439 the fourth of July was a foregone conclusion. You know, 82 00:05:18.439 --> 00:05:22.120 the colonies have been treated, you know, so overwhelmingly poorly, 83 00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:24.519 and you know, we could debate whether or not they 84 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:26.959 had been and what the British could have done differently. 85 00:05:27.319 --> 00:05:30.120 Of course, these these gentlemen would have considered themselves British 86 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:33.040 citizens at this point in history, and we should be 87 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:36.759 well to remember that. But I think it's always a 88 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:38.959 mistake to look at history as though there were not 89 00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:42.040 alternatives that could have happened, because of course there weren't. 90 00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:45.600 In this case is no exception. But I wanted to 91 00:05:45.600 --> 00:05:48.279 start by asking you the question about some of our 92 00:05:48.959 --> 00:05:52.319 sources for that year, because you bring this up in 93 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:55.199 the book, and I think it's important anytime that we're 94 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:58.800 talking about history to ask a question about what are 95 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:01.720 our sources, like, how reliable are they? What do we 96 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:04.199 need to think about when we're considering them. 97 00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:07.680 Yeah, I was surprised at how little was written about 98 00:06:07.680 --> 00:06:12.720 this in seventeen seventy six. And you know, they record 99 00:06:12.800 --> 00:06:15.439 the journals of the Continental Congress are there and they 100 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:19.240 have facts, but they're pretty scant, and I think it 101 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:23.000 realizes these guys were committing treason, and they knew that. 102 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:25.040 They didn't want to leave a lot of the record 103 00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:28.439 right there, So it's frustrating for historians. Now they did, 104 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:31.680 some of them did write, We're more expansive in private letters, 105 00:06:31.680 --> 00:06:33.519 which of course were not known at the time. They 106 00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:36.120 were written to their wives or brothers or someone you know, 107 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:38.079 back home in their colonies. They've come out since then 108 00:06:38.120 --> 00:06:41.360 to give us a little more context, but we would 109 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:44.720 never have the full picture because they weren't necessarily all 110 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:47.279 writing everything that was happening on those days. And in fact, 111 00:06:47.879 --> 00:06:50.199 you know, a lot of the stories that I had 112 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:54.079 heard about the Declaration era were actually written by John 113 00:06:54.079 --> 00:06:58.399 Adams and Thomas Jefferson in the eighteen twenties. Now they 114 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:01.879 were primary sources. They obviously were there, they knew what happened, 115 00:07:01.879 --> 00:07:04.079 but they were very old men at that time. Jefferson 116 00:07:04.120 --> 00:07:06.399 was in his late seventies, Adams was in his eighties, 117 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:09.240 and so while they were there, you know, it is 118 00:07:09.319 --> 00:07:12.040 my memory, your memory already at our age, is you 119 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:14.920 forget it. You can tell that by reading that they've misremembered. 120 00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:17.360 They contradict one another, even though they both were there. 121 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:19.800 That happens all the times. You hear that, So as 122 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:21.879 a historian you kind of have to piece it together 123 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:24.480 the best that we can. There's a fair amount out there, 124 00:07:24.879 --> 00:07:27.240 but it's a process of piecing it all together and 125 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:30.199 comparing what someone said in eighteen twenty with what they 126 00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:34.199 may have said in a letter in seventeen seventy seven. Yeah. 127 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:36.199 I was really blown away by that in your book, 128 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:39.480 because I think it's such an astute point. But you 129 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:41.759 don't think about it. You know, we thought, you know, 130 00:07:41.839 --> 00:07:44.439 we think of these men today as the ultimate patriots. 131 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:46.759 Of course, you know, of course you'd want to take 132 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:49.240 notes of everything that happened. Of course you'd keep minutes 133 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:52.839 because you'd want that remembered forever. But if you are 134 00:07:53.000 --> 00:07:57.519 willfully in the act of committing treason, that might not 135 00:07:57.639 --> 00:08:03.319 be something that everybody wants to write sentence down. I mean, 136 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:05.800 of course, these gentlemen, you know that would have been 137 00:08:06.759 --> 00:08:09.360 they would have had been told about the English Civil War, 138 00:08:09.519 --> 00:08:11.839 you know, that would have happened, you know, the century prior. 139 00:08:12.519 --> 00:08:14.480 You know, they might not have had direct connect no 140 00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:16.519 one would have had direct connection to it at that point. 141 00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:19.160 But you know, a lot of people lost their lives, 142 00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:22.079 and people do lose their lives in the Civil War 143 00:08:22.199 --> 00:08:24.240 and in these sorts of conflicts, which is what this 144 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:28.079 is going to ultimately amount to. So I find that 145 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:32.159 really interesting and important that had this gone the other way, 146 00:08:32.639 --> 00:08:35.240 you know, we would have seen something very differently. Well, 147 00:08:35.279 --> 00:08:37.759 let's start to talk about some of our cast of 148 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:41.679 characters here, if you will, you know one of them, 149 00:08:42.159 --> 00:08:44.360 and this I'm going to take a quick quotation here 150 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:46.759 from the book because I think it's such so interesting 151 00:08:47.159 --> 00:08:50.360 in the beginning, You're right about John Adams. That quote, 152 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:54.879 anxious but resolute after a night of fitful sleep, Congressional 153 00:08:54.919 --> 00:08:59.240 Delegate John Adams, a brain treat Massachusetts, felt the daunting 154 00:08:59.279 --> 00:09:01.480 weight of history as he slid out of bed in 155 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:05.200 his rented room on the Second Street in Philadelphia. Calendar 156 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:08.960 date was July the first, seventeen seventy six, And that's 157 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:13.000 a portion of the quotation. John Adams is someone who 158 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:16.720 I think, alongside James Madison, gets forgotten a little bit 159 00:09:16.720 --> 00:09:19.519 in our cast of characters here. You know, he's the 160 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:25.039 relatively unsuccessful, you know, relatively speaking, successor to George Washington. 161 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:26.840 I mean, who's going to stand in the wake of 162 00:09:26.879 --> 00:09:30.080 George Washington? But you know what do we know about 163 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:33.919 John Adams coming into this because he's so important. Were 164 00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:37.080 his motivations? Why was he chosen? What can we say 165 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:37.840 about this man? 166 00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:41.480 Adams is to me the most fascinating founder. I agor 167 00:09:41.559 --> 00:09:44.639 he is forgotten, probably because of his presidency and also 168 00:09:45.039 --> 00:09:47.320 much to his chagrin, he decided not to write the 169 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:51.200 Declaration of Independence. I think he always regretted later, because 170 00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:54.480 Adams really was the driving force in Congress for Independence. 171 00:09:54.639 --> 00:09:57.120 Jefferson and the others admitted that he led the way, 172 00:09:57.759 --> 00:09:59.720 but he was so busy when they were writing this 173 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:03.039 document that they didn't think was going to be that important. 174 00:10:03.200 --> 00:10:06.440 Adams always thought the vote was the most important thing. 175 00:10:06.639 --> 00:10:08.720 They gave it the young Jefferson and he ends up 176 00:10:08.799 --> 00:10:13.360 getting the credit. But Adams was an attorney from Braintree, Massachusetts. 177 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:16.440 He moved to Boston. Always very much believed in the 178 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:19.600 rule of law. He was the guy who defended the 179 00:10:19.639 --> 00:10:22.919 British soldiers from the Boston Massacre and actually got them 180 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:26.759 off and became very unpopular at the time and obviously 181 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:29.480 lost some clients. But he just believed that everyone in 182 00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:33.120 America before it was a country, deserved a defense like that, 183 00:10:33.159 --> 00:10:35.840 and he defended those men I mean, he stands up 184 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:38.559 in history. You hear in legal stories. People hold him 185 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:42.399 up because of what he did. He was a little 186 00:10:42.440 --> 00:10:45.679 bit slow to come to the revolution. He wasn't a 187 00:10:45.759 --> 00:10:47.559 key factor, and that must be a key factor in 188 00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:50.000 the first Continent of Congress. But as he gets here, 189 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:53.159 he builds momentum. And the other thing that helps helps 190 00:10:53.240 --> 00:10:56.600 us with John Adams helps historians is he did understand 191 00:10:57.080 --> 00:10:59.279 that it was historic, and he did write a lot. 192 00:10:59.399 --> 00:11:01.159 Now most of them were in private letters or in 193 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:03.759 a diary, so people didn't read his writing right at 194 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:06.440 the time except his family. But he gave us probably 195 00:11:06.480 --> 00:11:09.440 the best record of what happened that day in the 196 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:11.759 passage you read. I was writing about, you know, a 197 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:14.399 letter that he wrote on the morning of July the first, 198 00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:16.759 when he's walked, which is a day the debate started 199 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:19.799 in the Continent of Congress, and he wrote to a 200 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:22.240 friend in Georgia about how important this day was going 201 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:25.799 to be. So he felt the weight, the weight on 202 00:11:25.879 --> 00:11:27.639 his shoulders what was going to happen, and he knew 203 00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:28.960 he was going to have to lead the way, and 204 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:31.840 thankfully he did, and he did so much. And again 205 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:33.679 he doesn't he doesn't get the credit that he deserves, 206 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:36.440 because Jefferson wrote most of the document. And I do 207 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:38.720 think that Adams always regarded and he some of the 208 00:11:38.720 --> 00:11:40.639 things he said later in life. What I mentioned, he 209 00:11:40.759 --> 00:11:43.320 was always trying to get himself a little more credit 210 00:11:43.399 --> 00:11:46.240 because he thought he would. I love him, but he 211 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:48.720 was quite vain, quite an ego, and he wanted more 212 00:11:48.759 --> 00:11:49.320 credit than he. 213 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:52.879 Got I think. I mean, but it's interesting because if 214 00:11:52.879 --> 00:11:55.600 you think about it from obviously a lawyer's perspective, like 215 00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:58.480 what good is the deck the written declaration of independence 216 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:01.159 if you don't have the votes? So you know, from 217 00:12:01.240 --> 00:12:03.960 his perspective, it makes a lot of sense. Why why 218 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:06.120 focus on something that's just going to be thrown in 219 00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:09.480 the trash if ultimately it gets rejected, you know, and 220 00:12:09.720 --> 00:12:12.279 some maybe a niche thing for someone to study in 221 00:12:12.279 --> 00:12:14.480 British history down the years, like oh, isn't it funny 222 00:12:14.480 --> 00:12:18.799 they almost declared independence? But you know, I want to 223 00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:21.720 then talk a little bit about the Continental Congress, because 224 00:12:22.559 --> 00:12:24.600 you know, you're such an expert in it, and I'm 225 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:26.639 just kind of interested to find out a little bit 226 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:30.600 how did how did it open? Like what did they 227 00:12:30.679 --> 00:12:33.320 I mean, because they didn't come in I would assume 228 00:12:33.759 --> 00:12:36.440 knowing what the procedure was going to be, or even 229 00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:40.240 necessarily knowing what they were going to do. So you know, 230 00:12:40.279 --> 00:12:45.159 everybody gathers, and I mean, what happens. Does someone naturally 231 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:47.879 sort of take charge or is everyone just taking turns? 232 00:12:47.919 --> 00:12:48.799 Like what does it look like? 233 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:52.000 Yeah, the fact that something happened of it all is 234 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:55.080 incredible when you when you think of that. They you know, 235 00:12:55.440 --> 00:12:59.279 we Americans had been agitating since seventeen seventeen sixties to 236 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:03.000 restore our rights as British subjects. They thought they weren't 237 00:13:03.039 --> 00:13:06.960 being treated as British subjects should be treated. That the 238 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:10.720 Stamp backed protest and the Townsend Acts and taxation without representation, 239 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:13.879 and you know, the Continental Congress comes together for the 240 00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:16.120 first time. They didn't call it the first Continental Congress 241 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:18.399 because they thought it might be the only one. You know, 242 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:21.919 they meet in Philadelphia, and they come up with some resolutions. 243 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:24.159 They didn't do all that much. Most of these men 244 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:27.639 have never met each other again. You didn't even even 245 00:13:27.720 --> 00:13:30.799 wealthy people didn't travel that far back then. And people 246 00:13:30.840 --> 00:13:34.279 in South Carolina had never been to Pennsylvania. People in 247 00:13:34.279 --> 00:13:36.679 New Hampshire had never been to Pennsylvania. So it was 248 00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:40.600 an eye opening experience just to get there. But there, 249 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:44.159 with the exception of maybe a couple of firebrands from Massachusetts, 250 00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:47.600 their purpose from the very beginning was not independence at all. 251 00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:50.320 That word wasn't spoken. It was to restore their rights 252 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:52.799 and they believed that if they if they did this 253 00:13:52.919 --> 00:13:55.600 properly and wrote enough petitions and got them to the king, 254 00:13:55.879 --> 00:13:59.200 they their battle was with Parliament. They they thought maybe 255 00:13:59.240 --> 00:14:02.120 the King, who they really held up in esteem, wasn't 256 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:04.440 wasn't hearing what they said. So they even wrote some 257 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:07.440 petitions directly to the king. They were incorrect about that, 258 00:14:07.960 --> 00:14:10.679 but so it developed over time. And the one thing 259 00:14:10.720 --> 00:14:13.840 that Adams does that really helped me in the study 260 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:15.879 of the First Continental Congress, which again before this I 261 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:18.320 didn't know that much about. Uh. He wrote a lot 262 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:20.559 of descriptions of what what guys look like, and what 263 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:23.200 their personalities were, and who the friends were, and so 264 00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:25.399 you can see at the beginning some of the real 265 00:14:25.440 --> 00:14:28.679 British you know, as with any group today, clicks certainly 266 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:31.279 started at the beginning. They were British loyalists who hung 267 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:34.399 out together and maybe a little more radical guys hung 268 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:37.840 out together, and they would they would meet similar thinkers, 269 00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:39.360 the way when we go to college, you meet people 270 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:41.360 who kind of think like you and you become friends. 271 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:44.000 This happened there and for them especially. It was also 272 00:14:44.039 --> 00:14:46.440 the northern or Southerners, so it was a it was 273 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:48.600 a it was an eye open experience for all those 274 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:51.000 But even at the end of the First Continental Congress 275 00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:56.039 they wrote about six documents, they only tentatively agreed that 276 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:58.840 there would be a second one only if the king 277 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:01.200 did not respond to what they had said, So they 278 00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:02.480 weren't even sure they were going to be back in 279 00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:06.159 Philadelphia for another meeting at all. It was very tentative 280 00:15:06.200 --> 00:15:09.519 from the beginning. They made up their own rules. How 281 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:13.720 with all these a plus personalities who were appointed, not elected, 282 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:16.159 you know, the little the assemblies back home and in whatever 283 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:19.679 colony it was, would appoint certain people to go. Massachusetts, 284 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:22.159 you know, had you know, had the Adams cousins and 285 00:15:22.399 --> 00:15:24.919 some other names we've heard. Virginia obviously was the biggest 286 00:15:24.919 --> 00:15:27.399 colony back then. So it was these men coming together. 287 00:15:27.519 --> 00:15:29.600 The fact that they figured this all out is really 288 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:32.039 one of the quirks of fate of American history. 289 00:15:53.799 --> 00:15:57.200 Yeah, that's really interesting. You mentioned what they wanted at 290 00:15:57.240 --> 00:16:00.000 this point when we're talking about the first Continental Congress, 291 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:02.159 and much like the First World War, I mean, they 292 00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:04.600 didn't call it the first because they didn't know there 293 00:16:04.639 --> 00:16:07.600 was going to be another one at the time. But 294 00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:11.320 you know, you read this a lot in histories that 295 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:15.759 the American colonists wanted their rights, they wanted their rights. 296 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:20.120 What did they mean when they said that, Like, what 297 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:23.879 were they looking for? Were they looking were they talking about, 298 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:27.799 you know, the English Bill of Rights? Were they referencing 299 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:31.360 the Magna Carta at this point? What was it that 300 00:16:31.639 --> 00:16:35.159 would have satisfied the colonies at this portion so that 301 00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:37.559 we don't have a second Continental Congress? 302 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:42.000 They weren't all that clear. And British critics ever said 303 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:45.919 will say that, and you know, maybe the folks from 304 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:49.600 Massachusetts had different views in the folks from South Carolina 305 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:53.200 on it. They believed that that they were under the 306 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:57.200 thumb of parliament without any represent representation in parliament. That 307 00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:00.559 basically is what it comes down to now thinking of it, 308 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:02.840 that probably would have been impractical because it took so 309 00:17:02.960 --> 00:17:05.160 long for word to get across the ocean back then 310 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:07.720 that even if you had representation, and you know, if 311 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.519 someone from Pennsylvania was in Parliament, it would take so 312 00:17:11.640 --> 00:17:15.039 long to see what the Pennsylvanians really thought, it wouldn't 313 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:17.319 have worked, and the British didn't want to do that. 314 00:17:17.160 --> 00:17:20.039 And you know, the British also were a little condescend 315 00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:22.279 and that here you should be glad you're part of 316 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:24.880 the British Empire. Why are you causing these problems? Why 317 00:17:24.920 --> 00:17:27.359 are you making us send our troops? And clearly also 318 00:17:28.519 --> 00:17:30.759 some of it was over the British had come over 319 00:17:30.799 --> 00:17:33.039 here in the in the French and Indian War as 320 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:36.200 we call it, to defend this part of the part 321 00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:38.039 of their empire, and it cost him a lot of money, 322 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:40.480 and they wanted the colonists to pay their fair share 323 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:42.480 of that, and the colonists weren't sure that should happen. 324 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:44.559 So we have a lot of these these side issues 325 00:17:44.759 --> 00:17:47.400 when we get to the Declaration of Independence. And most 326 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:50.000 of it really what Jefferson wrote his in his original 327 00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:53.200 document was complaints about the king, and a lot of them, 328 00:17:53.240 --> 00:17:55.279 British critics will say, now, some of them makes sense, 329 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:57.079 some of them don't make sense. Some of that's just 330 00:17:57.119 --> 00:17:59.160 over time, and some of them he just seemed to 331 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:02.480 be saying anything. There's not a lot of there there 332 00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:04.519 in some of those some of those complaints. 333 00:18:07.319 --> 00:18:10.039 Yeah, we have sort of a fundamental disagreement I think 334 00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:12.119 between the two sides over well, what is the role 335 00:18:12.200 --> 00:18:16.000 of a colony at some point, because you know, the 336 00:18:16.039 --> 00:18:19.799 original purpose for all these European nations, for found that 337 00:18:20.119 --> 00:18:24.160 the colonies were founded to support the mother country, the 338 00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:27.680 home country. That was the purpose. You know, The idea 339 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:30.440 was never, well, you guys will be on equal footing 340 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:32.359 with us in some way, shape or. 341 00:18:32.279 --> 00:18:32.920 Form like that. 342 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:37.759 That had never necessarily crossed anyone's mind. The other question 343 00:18:37.839 --> 00:18:40.960 that I always have about the debate over independence was, 344 00:18:41.599 --> 00:18:44.559 you know what what was the British response? And I 345 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:47.640 think this has been written about someone to the idea 346 00:18:47.680 --> 00:18:51.599 of American shadow slavery, you know, because you know Jefferson's 347 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:54.039 going to write, you know, we hold these truths to 348 00:18:54.079 --> 00:18:56.519 be self evident, that all men are created equal. And 349 00:18:56.559 --> 00:18:59.400 he's writing this at a time when he knows perfectly 350 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:02.960 well that the there's a large portion of Virginia's population 351 00:19:03.519 --> 00:19:08.599 that is not equal under the law. And I know that, 352 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:12.960 you know, the British are going to emancipate slaves throughout 353 00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:15.680 the empire much earlier than the Americans are going to 354 00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:19.319 what did the British make of that? As these complaints 355 00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:21.160 start to come forward, That's one that's always kind of 356 00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:22.680 peaked me at my interests. 357 00:19:22.400 --> 00:19:27.160 Hustam of being highly hypocritical, highly hypocritical. What are you 358 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:30.960 what are you talking about? You know, the drivers of 359 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:34.519 of of African Americans are now owners and drivers are 360 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:40.000 not complaining about freedom. What's your where's your moral standing 361 00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:42.640 on that? And a lot of critics, even after the 362 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:46.359 declaration came out, would criticize the Americans, the colonists for 363 00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:49.319 saying that, almost laugh at them and mock them, and 364 00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:54.759 the British, British governor, you know, local colonial governors would 365 00:19:54.759 --> 00:19:58.079 try to enlist some of the slaves, the enslaved people 366 00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:00.519 to join the British armories, to offer them freedom in 367 00:20:00.559 --> 00:20:04.440 exchange for fighting against their former masters, as they also 368 00:20:04.519 --> 00:20:06.880 did in the War of eighteen twelve. So they it 369 00:20:06.920 --> 00:20:09.119 didn't work all that well for them, but they were 370 00:20:09.160 --> 00:20:13.160 trying to drive a wedge between the America and they knew, 371 00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:15.839 you know, that there was a clearly it was a 372 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:20.680 line of demarcation here north and south, not totally but generally, 373 00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:23.160 and they thought they could they could drive a wedge 374 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:25.640 among the colonies to try to split them up. Part 375 00:20:25.640 --> 00:20:29.680 of the British policy was, or should have been, to 376 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:33.880 create fissures between the colonies because there was no natural 377 00:20:35.079 --> 00:20:39.200 amalgamation of these thirteen colonies before seventeen seventy six. You know, 378 00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:43.680 people didn't think of it back then as being a country. 379 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:47.000 These were individual colonies on more like the European Union 380 00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:48.599 kind of thing. I think that's a lot of people 381 00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:52.400 thought it might have eventually become. And the other thing 382 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:55.640 is just it's I think we have to we were 383 00:20:55.720 --> 00:21:01.000 so used today to immediate communication, immediate information. The fact 384 00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:04.319 that it took so long for information to get across 385 00:21:04.359 --> 00:21:07.079 the ocean and then get an answer back that could 386 00:21:07.160 --> 00:21:10.119 be six months the total of getting a question and 387 00:21:10.160 --> 00:21:13.279 getting an answer by that point. Things have changed dramatically 388 00:21:13.359 --> 00:21:15.920 on the ground. And we've seen that through American history 389 00:21:16.000 --> 00:21:16.680 during this period. 390 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:20.920 Yeah, that's really interesting, And I'm going to ask a question. 391 00:21:20.920 --> 00:21:22.119 I don't know if you know the answer to it. 392 00:21:22.200 --> 00:21:25.279 But did the British sources at any point point out 393 00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:29.039 to the Americans how impractical it would be to have 394 00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:30.119 a seat in Parliament? 395 00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:33.880 Well, and almost it was like, what are you doing 396 00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:36.319 don't you realize how proud you should be to be 397 00:21:36.359 --> 00:21:39.000 part of the British empire. They couldn't imagine that people 398 00:21:39.079 --> 00:21:42.000 didn't want to take pride and mean They thought they 399 00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:45.359 had granted them this incredible status to be part of 400 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:49.880 our empire and be colonizing a new world. But I 401 00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:54.519