1 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 1: Welcome to Spycraft, a podcast that tells gripping life and 2 00:00:09,759 --> 00:00:14,000 death spy stories and the amazing devices and operations that 3 00:00:14,119 --> 00:00:17,160 made them possible. Now let's get started. 4 00:00:27,839 --> 00:00:30,399 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome back everybody. Today, we have a great guest, 5 00:00:30,559 --> 00:00:34,000 Robert Bear B A. E. R. We're gonna find out 6 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:35,719 who he is? Well, who is he? He's the author 7 00:00:35,719 --> 00:00:38,240 of two New York Times bestsellers, Sleeping with the Devil, 8 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,679 about the Saudi royal family and his relationship with the 9 00:00:40,799 --> 00:00:44,439 United States, and See No Evil, which recounts Bear's years 10 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,039 as top CI operatives. You know, Evil is the basis 11 00:00:47,039 --> 00:00:50,079 for the acclaimed film Syriana's Great Movie. Actually, but You're 12 00:00:50,079 --> 00:00:52,880 in George cluinyon Oscar for his portrayal of Bear. Bear 13 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,359 writes regularly for Time dot Com and has contributed to 14 00:00:55,399 --> 00:00:58,039 Vanity Fair, The Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, and he's 15 00:00:58,079 --> 00:01:00,280 considered one of the world's foremost authority. He's in the 16 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,240 Middle East. So what are we talking to him about today? Well, 17 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:05,760 his brand new book, The Fourth Man, The Hunt for 18 00:01:05,799 --> 00:01:08,480 a KGB Spy at the Top of the Cia and 19 00:01:08,519 --> 00:01:12,319 the Rise of Putin's Russia. This is a fascinating read, folks. 20 00:01:12,359 --> 00:01:15,760 I highly recommend it if you're into spy novels. Great stuff. 21 00:01:15,799 --> 00:01:17,959 Actually not a novel, it's a spy book if you're 22 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,319 great if you're into those books, I highly recommend it. 23 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:22,640 The Fourth Man, The Hunt for a KGB spy at 24 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:25,000 the top of the CIA, and the rise of Putin's Russia. 25 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:27,439 Before a get start, you know what to do, Share 26 00:01:27,439 --> 00:01:29,400 a subscribe, hit that I like button. You know we 27 00:01:29,519 --> 00:01:31,319 like it, and that's not wasting any more time. Welcome 28 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:32,359 to the show, mister Robert Bear. 29 00:01:32,439 --> 00:01:35,879 Speaker 3: Welcome sir, Thanks joy being here. 30 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 2: This is great, Thank you so much for the opportunity. 31 00:01:38,439 --> 00:01:42,439 It's a fascinating read. As we talked before the show, 32 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:45,359 and we'll get to that later. There's a lot of 33 00:01:45,439 --> 00:01:47,840 mystery around this one. Well let me ask you this 34 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,359 first things First, we're motivated you to write this book. 35 00:01:51,439 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 3: Well, it's the people who investigated The Fourth Man came 36 00:01:55,599 --> 00:01:58,439 to me and said, here's the story. When I was 37 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:00,760 in the CIA, I had never heard of anything about this. 38 00:02:00,879 --> 00:02:05,200 I knew that there was paranoi about Russian intelligence having sources, 39 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,199 but other than that, I knew zero about it. So 40 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,520 I approaching this as a reporter. You know when when 41 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,479 your former boss comes to you. To the investigators, A 42 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,960 bunch of ex FBI guys come to me and say, yeah, 43 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:22,240 there was a fourth man, no doubt about it. And 44 00:02:22,439 --> 00:02:26,360 he did more damage, probably, we guessed, than any spy 45 00:02:26,439 --> 00:02:30,840 in American history. So with that kind of introduction to 46 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,000 the story, how could I not be obsessed by it? 47 00:02:34,039 --> 00:02:36,840 And I am obsessed by it until today. And I 48 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:41,599 started writing this down, and I went to everybody I 49 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:44,000 could get to ask them their opinion. I went to 50 00:02:44,159 --> 00:02:50,159 James Clapper, former DNI, I went to the former CIA 51 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,840 director Hayden and write down the line. Even Gena Haspell, 52 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,919 and they all had a piece of the story. Most 53 00:02:58,039 --> 00:03:01,400 were could not would used to give me the whole story, 54 00:03:02,039 --> 00:03:06,240 but they confirmed what the investigators had told me. And 55 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:10,639 so I build this narrative. And as a journalist kind 56 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:12,840 of approaching this story, I mean I have a knowledge 57 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,080 about the CIA, betas a journalist approaching it, I had 58 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:21,159 to put down all of the objections, every single bit 59 00:03:21,319 --> 00:03:24,479 I could. And then on top of that, I had 60 00:03:24,479 --> 00:03:26,800 to make it a thriller. So what I give you 61 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:31,479 at the beginning of the book is basically, here are 62 00:03:31,479 --> 00:03:35,080 the suspects, and by the end of the book, I 63 00:03:35,199 --> 00:03:38,120 leave it up to the reader to judge the evidence 64 00:03:38,319 --> 00:03:39,520 and who the fourth man is. 65 00:03:40,639 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 2: That's crazy because you start over in nineteen and ninety two. 66 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,639 I think of believing in your book it's start a 67 00:03:45,639 --> 00:03:47,719 mask on Moscow. But before we get to that real quickly, 68 00:03:47,719 --> 00:03:49,360 you know what, I didn't get your background? How long 69 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,479 were you in the CIA and were you an operative 70 00:03:51,599 --> 00:03:52,680 or what was your role? 71 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,319 Speaker 3: Yeah? I was, I was in twenty one years. I 72 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,240 was in operations the whole time, and I resigned in 73 00:03:59,319 --> 00:04:05,879 December ninety seven. I was assigned mostly overseas. Hated Washington, 74 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,319 hated being aside to headquarters. Anytime I could, I would 75 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:15,039 just go overseas. And then in ninety five I was 76 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:20,040 involved in an aborted kupd atag against Saddam Hussein. I 77 00:04:20,079 --> 00:04:23,079 was brought back to the United States investigated by the 78 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:28,279 FBI for attempted murder and murder. And so you know, 79 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,639 when your employers starts thinking about trying to put you 80 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,800 in jail, isn't it time to move on? Although I 81 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,199 wish I had assassinated Saddam Hussein, it would have saved 82 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,000 us a lot of a lot of lives, both Iraqi 83 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:43,600 and American and a lot of money. 84 00:04:44,639 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 2: Oh man, it's a heck of a mess you're in there. 85 00:04:48,759 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, it's you know, I sort of knew that 86 00:04:51,959 --> 00:04:55,560 the FBI wasn't. They were very reluctant to investigate this 87 00:04:55,639 --> 00:04:57,839 as it was ordered from the top from the White House. 88 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,160 And you know, it's like the FBI agents were great. 89 00:05:02,199 --> 00:05:04,800 We just said this is really stupid. You know, when 90 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:06,560 you went to a rack when you were chief of 91 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:11,160 station there, you had a lethal finding, which basically you 92 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,000 can kill anybody you want to. So I said, yeah, 93 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,759 the lethal finding. I told Washington what I was doing 94 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,240 the whole thing. So they thought it was nonsense too. 95 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 2: Well, I guess what leads into this book. Now, in 96 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:26,920 Moscow in nineteen ninety two, you start off with the 97 00:05:26,959 --> 00:05:29,839 problem was how to find a KGB operative in Moscow 98 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:31,959 who didn't want to be found in something Most of 99 00:05:31,959 --> 00:05:34,040 them don't want to be found. But you made it 100 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,759 very problematic, or she whoever it is, made it extremely problematic. 101 00:05:38,519 --> 00:05:41,240 What did you think about it you started getting information? 102 00:05:41,439 --> 00:05:45,079 Did you think this is like a ghost, this is 103 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,519 made up? Or did it really start feeling like it 104 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:47,959 was there? 105 00:05:48,519 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 3: Well, what happened was there's this, there's this Russian counterintelligence 106 00:05:52,319 --> 00:05:56,120 officer who was a little bit lippy. He would sit 107 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:00,399 down with CIA people and give him hints about this 108 00:06:00,439 --> 00:06:02,600 goes back to nineteen eighty eight. We give him hints 109 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,639 about Russian moles in the CIA and the FBI. He 110 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,639 came up with names for these guys. He says, Yeah, 111 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,920 we're running this great source and the FBI and an 112 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,800 even better one in the CIA. And he knew about 113 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:17,800 these because he was he was a connector and knew 114 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:24,120 about these. And so once the FBI decided that there 115 00:06:24,199 --> 00:06:28,519 was a spy inside the CIA, I was convinced of it. 116 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:30,759 They went to the CIA was to get a hold 117 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,480 of this Russian and get the full story. We didn't 118 00:06:34,519 --> 00:06:36,399 know how to get a hold of them. He had 119 00:06:36,399 --> 00:06:41,879 been reassigned back to Moscow, had no idea where to 120 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:46,439 find him, nothing. And then one day we're having the 121 00:06:46,439 --> 00:06:50,160 liaison meeting between the CIA and Russian intelligence in Moscow, 122 00:06:50,879 --> 00:06:54,000 and who shows up as a translator the same guy. 123 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,439 So the trick is how to get him away from 124 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,600 his colleagues. What do you mean there's a mole inside 125 00:07:01,639 --> 00:07:03,279 the CIA? Who is this guy? What do you know 126 00:07:03,319 --> 00:07:08,480 about him? So eventually in ninety three, we just take 127 00:07:08,519 --> 00:07:11,399 all of our liaison contacts between the Russians and the 128 00:07:11,439 --> 00:07:14,920 Americans that bring them to Washington and then to Greenbrier 129 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:19,360 in West Virginia, which is a hoteler. And one day 130 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,600 the Russian goes fishing with one of our guys, he's 131 00:07:21,639 --> 00:07:27,600 a great officer, and said, hey, your mole is flying 132 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:34,000 to Crocus to meet his Russian handler. So with that 133 00:07:34,120 --> 00:07:40,279 piece of information, the FBI scrambled and figured out that 134 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:45,240 it was Rick Aynes, the notorious mole who without informing anybody, 135 00:07:45,279 --> 00:07:50,360 flies to Caracas. It coincides with the information about his 136 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:55,639 handler Uri correctkin, the FBI gets a full FISA, they 137 00:07:55,639 --> 00:07:57,680 could break in authority, all the rest of it. They 138 00:07:57,759 --> 00:08:01,399 proved the case. So in other words, this rush who 139 00:08:01,439 --> 00:08:07,000 is known as Max, broke the biggest counterintelligence case in 140 00:08:07,079 --> 00:08:09,360 American history. I mean he broke it. It was a guy, 141 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:14,279 and you know, one specific guy. So his credibility goes 142 00:08:14,319 --> 00:08:20,360 way up. And that's fine, you know, and he talks 143 00:08:20,399 --> 00:08:22,279 about the FBI guy, but he can't really help to 144 00:08:22,319 --> 00:08:24,920 figure out who this guy is. And it turned out 145 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:27,120 it would turn out to be Bob Hanson. In two 146 00:08:27,199 --> 00:08:30,959 thousand and one, the FBI agent but what intrigued the 147 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:36,960 CIA was, guess what, there's another Russian mole inside the CIA, 148 00:08:37,039 --> 00:08:42,320 only much higher ranking and better placed. So this kicks 149 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:46,080 off a huge investigation which has never been reported about 150 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:54,080 ever inside the CIA. And that's sort of the the 151 00:08:54,279 --> 00:09:00,440 beginning of this story, which goes on until today. As 152 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,360 of a couple of weeks ago, the FBI was knocking 153 00:09:04,399 --> 00:09:09,480 on the doors of my sources, not in a hostile way, 154 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,519 but they've been going around saying, hey, is there anything 155 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,000 we missed in our investigation of the Fourth Man? And 156 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,720 everybody's very helpful. This is all very congenial, which I 157 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,519 should add at this point that this book, the material 158 00:09:25,279 --> 00:09:28,600 I write about, was submitted to both the CIA and 159 00:09:28,639 --> 00:09:33,240 the FBI. The CIA asked for a couple deletions, which 160 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:36,919 I said, fine, it doesn't affect the narrative. Specifics like 161 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,639 the names of the handlers of the Fourth Man. I 162 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,440 have those, and they said, please don't put that in 163 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,159 the book. We don't want the Russians to know we 164 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:50,159 have them. I wouldn't say the FBI or the CIA 165 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,720 are happy about this book, but they played ball with 166 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:58,600 me in that sense, and I know we don't talk anymore. 167 00:09:59,039 --> 00:10:04,519 Just it's out there. But anyhow, that's the that's the 168 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:10,720 heart of the story. And my big question is the 169 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:16,480 FBI conducts espionage investigations all the time. And what happens 170 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,600 is they suspect to spy, they open an investigations called 171 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,639 the OAN open and approved ninety days. They got to 172 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:29,080 go back and tell her supervisor why this investigation needs 173 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,639 to remain open, and they have to provide what new 174 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,120 evidence they have. My question is, and the great mystery 175 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,720 is why has this investigation gone on for more than 176 00:10:38,759 --> 00:10:40,159 twenty five years? 177 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 2: Twenty five years that's a long time. 178 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,519 Speaker 3: And come on, you know, CIA people say, oh, the 179 00:10:48,639 --> 00:10:52,200 FBI hates the CIA, you know this and that, and they, 180 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,840 you know, for whatever reason, it's a rivalry. But come on, 181 00:10:55,919 --> 00:11:00,600 the FBI does not investigate something like this for twenty 182 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:05,759 five years unless they truly believe that they've got something. 183 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:09,399 Speaker 2: Who knows how old that guy is by a narrow 184 00:11:09,519 --> 00:11:12,960 down it's almost like retirement age. 185 00:11:13,799 --> 00:11:16,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, he's still alive. If it're just dead, they just 186 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:23,600 let this thing die. He's way past retirement. But here's 187 00:11:23,639 --> 00:11:28,000 the interesting part of the story is, and I've pieced 188 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,759 this together, there were a couple Russian defectors who come 189 00:11:32,799 --> 00:11:38,399 out of Russia and describe the Fourth Man. One of 190 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:42,960 them was famous. His name was Jerkushion and he was 191 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:46,039 head of counterintelligence and was the first guy to run 192 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:47,840 Aimes and Hanson. 193 00:11:48,399 --> 00:11:48,639 Speaker 2: Wow. 194 00:11:49,159 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 3: So he comes out and talks about the Fourth Man. 195 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,879 Multiple other defectors have come out and said he's the 196 00:11:55,879 --> 00:12:00,480 best agent that the KGB has ever had. And this 197 00:12:00,639 --> 00:12:05,279 was has been described and anyhow, I mean, you know, 198 00:12:05,399 --> 00:12:07,559 let's go back to the beginning. Why am I fascinated 199 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,320 by this story. I think about Russian operations, but this 200 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:16,679 is definitely le car but on viagra, and it's all real. 201 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,159 Speaker 2: It's really an amazing story. You've did a great job 202 00:12:20,159 --> 00:12:22,879 of writing about it and taking a step by a 203 00:12:22,879 --> 00:12:26,440 step on the interactions with the individuals and what they said. 204 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:29,919 But listening to you now as well talking about kind 205 00:12:29,919 --> 00:12:31,639 of the behind the scenes. Look, this is always a 206 00:12:31,639 --> 00:12:33,480 tough part about having authors on to the shows. You 207 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,600 don't want to give up too much so people can 208 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,399 read the book and get it. But your's just a 209 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:38,919 tip of the Iceberger. I don't think you could give 210 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:39,360 too much. 211 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, and all my sources agreed, by the way, because 212 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,120 they're in effect whistleblowers. They conducted the investigation. It doesn't 213 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,080 matter whether they're right or wrong, but they conducted the investigation. 214 00:12:52,159 --> 00:12:56,000 I state their conclusions. I state the evidence they could 215 00:12:56,039 --> 00:12:57,759 give me. They couldn't give me all the evidence. 216 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:00,879 Speaker 2: Did you ever feel like you got really close, like man, 217 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,360 I'm gonna getting close to the sky, or not really, or. 218 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 3: Well, I'm close to it, you know when the FBI. 219 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,799 I live in the middle of nowhere of Colorado. When 220 00:13:11,799 --> 00:13:16,240 the FBI shows up one spring morning and asks if 221 00:13:16,279 --> 00:13:18,720 I know anything that they don't, I don't think I did. 222 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:24,919 It's serious. So I think the FBI is close, but 223 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,240 they simply don't have the hard evidence to bring to 224 00:13:29,279 --> 00:13:32,440 a court. The rule of the FBI is, you do 225 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:36,759 not take an espionage case unless one hundred percent certainty 226 00:13:36,759 --> 00:13:39,279 of conviction. And you know what that means. You got 227 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,639 to photograph the spy with this Russian handler. You've got, 228 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:45,919 you know, dead drop or anything. You just got to 229 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:47,919 see that happen, or put him in the same city, 230 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,799 or you have to show Russian money showing up in 231 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:56,480 this account. Now, the FBI believes that this guy was 232 00:13:56,519 --> 00:13:59,919 out for revenge. His career took a bad turn to see. 233 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,679 I A. He wanted to show the CIA that he 234 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:09,200 could outplay them and outplay the FBI, and that was 235 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,840 really his his intent. And as far as I can see, 236 00:14:12,879 --> 00:14:15,200 he's going to get away with it. When when the 237 00:14:15,279 --> 00:14:19,080 FBI is up against somebody who doesn't take money and 238 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:24,080 doesn't pass documents that can be traced, they this is 239 00:14:24,559 --> 00:14:27,919 there's not much they can do about. This is a 240 00:14:28,039 --> 00:14:31,759 story about the skill of the fourth man, not the 241 00:14:31,799 --> 00:14:33,600 skills of the FBI or the CIA. 242 00:14:34,639 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 2: Do you think technology has helped him a lot more? 243 00:14:36,559 --> 00:14:38,519 Is it made it easier harder? You would know more 244 00:14:38,519 --> 00:14:40,720 than I would have in regards to being able to 245 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,120 maintain clandestine kind of operations. 246 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,159 Speaker 3: Going, Well, he would you hide it in the open, 247 00:14:48,399 --> 00:14:53,759 so the FBI can trent men track travel. But if 248 00:14:53,799 --> 00:14:57,840 you're going to meet your handlers in Europe on CIA orders, 249 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:01,960 what can they prove nothing? Because so what he would 250 00:15:02,039 --> 00:15:03,960 do was a range of trip, like to go to 251 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:09,399 Paris or London, meet his handlers, say whatever he is, 252 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,519 and then come back and all the FBI has says, yeah, 253 00:15:11,519 --> 00:15:15,120 he was on official trip. And if you don't take 254 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:19,279 money from the Russians or cash or there's no calls 255 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:24,720 to Moscow course, and there's no cell phone records, there's nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing. 256 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:27,720 And the guy, the fourth man, knew what he was doing. 257 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 2: And you do we have any idea of what has 258 00:15:31,399 --> 00:15:35,440 been given up or anything that the fourth man possibly 259 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,919 has already real. 260 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 3: Well, one guy that that agrees that he exists ran 261 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,399 Russian operations to the CIA. He's very leery about talking 262 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,000 to me. By the way, this book's not made me 263 00:15:50,039 --> 00:15:51,399 popular with my ex colleagues. 264 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,399 Speaker 2: You don't imagine that. 265 00:15:56,399 --> 00:16:00,159 Speaker 3: He said, for instance, he gave up transcripts of conversation 266 00:16:00,279 --> 00:16:04,639 between Yeltson and Clinton. And what happened then was the FSB, 267 00:16:04,879 --> 00:16:08,360 that's Russian Internal Intelligence, which was headed by Putin at 268 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:15,000 the time, goes into Yelton with these transcripts and says Boris, comrade, Boris, 269 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,279 my friend. We know exactly what you're talking to Clinton about, 270 00:16:19,519 --> 00:16:21,919 and we're just here to protect you, so be careful. 271 00:16:22,519 --> 00:16:26,039 So this scares the Jesus out of Yeltsin. He stops 272 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,399 talking to Clinton at this point. There was a year 273 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:32,600 before Putin comes to power. So the suspicion is that 274 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,919 Putin and the fourth Man contributed to Putin's appointment as 275 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:41,360 Prime Minister and then president. That's the kind of things. 276 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,480 And the Fourth Man had all sorts of access to 277 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:52,759 military secrets. So if you're like anti aircraft missiles, so 278 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:57,600 if the Russians knew what we had, then they could 279 00:16:57,639 --> 00:17:05,240 redesign their weaponry. What people are looking at here is 280 00:17:05,279 --> 00:17:09,359 the access the guy had, excuse me, and what he 281 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,039 could possibly give up, as opposed to knowing for certain 282 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:18,559 because as I understand, as people have told me, there 283 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:21,119 was no file on the Fourth Man in Moscow. This 284 00:17:21,279 --> 00:17:24,079 is how important he was. There was no file for 285 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,559 the Russian for somebody able to go look at. He 286 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:31,000 was simply run off what the FSB Russian internal intelligence 287 00:17:31,039 --> 00:17:34,079 calls a postcard, and it just had his code name 288 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:38,599 on the postcard and the names of his handlers. So 289 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:45,279 you know, the Russians, if they have a very good agent, 290 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:51,960 they know how to run him. They know how that 291 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,799 you avoid a place, a meeting place like in Washington, 292 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:57,759 you never go there because the FBI could follow you 293 00:17:57,799 --> 00:18:02,200 to a meeting the same way London. Vienna is safer 294 00:18:02,279 --> 00:18:06,319 because the Austrians don't much care and they're so penetrated 295 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,519 by the Russians anyhow, Oh really, yeah, the Austrians don't. 296 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,839 If you can a spy for the Russians don't. Don't 297 00:18:13,039 --> 00:18:18,920 you know do it in Vienna? There's so many they've 298 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:22,759 always been ambivalent about, you know, being part of Nate, 299 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:24,319 you know, part of the Western Alliance. 300 00:18:25,559 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 2: Interesting, So let me ask you this. Now you've written 301 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,640 other books, of course, is this if you ever dabbled 302 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,400 before in trying to look at spies and how they operate? 303 00:18:40,519 --> 00:18:42,079 And I guess what I'm trying to look for, is there? 304 00:18:42,759 --> 00:18:47,319 How does this fourth man compare to anybody else that 305 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,799 you've seen in the past? Aldridge, Ames, Robert Hansen. Obviously 306 00:18:50,799 --> 00:18:52,839 they all got caught and this guy seems to be 307 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,000 a But if it's a guy, I don't assume that either. 308 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:55,799 Who knows what it is? 309 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:57,039 Speaker 3: But is it? 310 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 2: Mickey? Have you seen anything that really stood out besides 311 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:01,599 obviously his anonymity? 312 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,519 Speaker 3: Well, the thing that stood out to me and I 313 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,680 had to ask this question of people who really know 314 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:14,519 what they're talking about FBI agents, CIA people. He was 315 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:19,160 run by what's called the Second Chief Directorate, and the 316 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:24,279 second Chief Directorate was counterintelligence in the old KGB, so 317 00:19:24,319 --> 00:19:33,599 they just operated internally the very starting. Okay, good, that 318 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,400 was the dogs warning me the FBI's outside getting ready 319 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:37,880 to close this. 320 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 2: Down, right, I'm sure right now. 321 00:19:42,519 --> 00:19:46,279 Speaker 3: So he was run by this internal service which was paranoid, 322 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:50,480 and the people never defected. So if if you're if 323 00:19:50,519 --> 00:19:52,599 you know what you're doing, the last thing you want 324 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,680 to do is walk into a Russian embassy and ask 325 00:19:55,880 --> 00:20:00,400 for the Foreign Intelligence Service, because it's completely penetrated. They 326 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,119 have a lot of defectors. They're unreliable, they've been living 327 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:10,000 the high life in Europe or Washington. And you don't 328 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,200 go to them, You go to the Second Chief Directorate. 329 00:20:12,279 --> 00:20:16,119 You make contact with them. And so Russia is divided 330 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:20,920 into these two services, and one is much more reliable 331 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:26,920 than the others. And that's the best guess of what happened. 332 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,759 And that's what the defectors said that come out, is 333 00:20:29,799 --> 00:20:35,119 that he was run by the Second Chief Directorate. And 334 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:38,960 that's why the FBI has never been able to get 335 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,400 a smoking gun on them. No defectors come out and say, 336 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,079 oh yeah, I know about this guy in Washington. He 337 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:43,839 did this and did that. 338 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,839 Speaker 2: Now, considering we're talking the fourth man, have any of 339 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,720 the other individuals one two three provided any clues to 340 00:20:53,799 --> 00:20:54,680 this fourth man? 341 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 3: Well, the first the stories based on Edward Lee Howard, 342 00:21:01,079 --> 00:21:04,519 who fled to the USSR back in the early eighties. 343 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,720 And the Aims is presumably the second man because he 344 00:21:09,759 --> 00:21:14,839 gets arrested in ninety four and Bob Hanson, the FBI agent, 345 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:19,319 is arrested in two thousand and one. They knew nothing 346 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:23,039 about the fourth man. It wasn't like they matter. And 347 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:30,119 the Russians are very compartmented and they simply I mean, 348 00:21:30,279 --> 00:21:32,799 by the way, the Russians are just have flipped out 349 00:21:32,799 --> 00:21:33,599 about this book. 350 00:21:34,519 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 2: Really they're not happy about it. 351 00:21:37,039 --> 00:21:40,079 Speaker 3: Well, what they're really unhappy about it is Russian intelligence 352 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,319 guys who have defected here tell me is that the 353 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:49,319 possibility that the Russians gave up Aims and another agent 354 00:21:49,599 --> 00:21:52,359 in order to protect the fourth man. They hate the 355 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:54,640 idea that anybody would put it out there that they 356 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:59,359 would sacrifice an agent to protect another one. So you 357 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,319 see that, you see you know these reviews, I'm sure 358 00:22:02,319 --> 00:22:04,880 you don't read them like an RT which is which 359 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,599 is a Russian intelligence outlet run by the Russian government. 360 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,480 They're just apoplectic. I mean, I'd like to tell the 361 00:22:11,519 --> 00:22:13,480 Russians the best way to deal with the book. You 362 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,160 don't like is just ignore it? But it was, it 363 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:18,680 was it was too much for the Russians. 364 00:22:19,319 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 2: You haven't made a whole lot of friends anywhere. 365 00:22:21,319 --> 00:22:24,559 Speaker 3: No, I don't make it anywhere. No. If you ever 366 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,119 walk with me in the in the we start taking 367 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,400 incoming rounds. It could be from anybody. 368 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 2: You have a rare talent. 369 00:22:32,279 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 3: Yes, I work at it. 370 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 2: You've managed to off all for ESPN. I'm assuming nobody 371 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,599 else is involved here. It's just Russians here. So we 372 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,720 don't have anything coming up with China or any other 373 00:22:46,759 --> 00:22:48,039 countries doing anything. 374 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,759 Speaker 3: You know, China, I did. I ran China cases in 375 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,640 the CIA, but there just don't. I'm so out of 376 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,839 it that I would have nothing to contribute. Plus, no 377 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:00,279 one's ever come to me and say, hey, why don't 378 00:23:00,279 --> 00:23:02,359 you deal with the Chinese what they're doing in this country. 379 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,480 I'm sure it's a fascinating story. But the Middle East 380 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,160 and Russia is about, you know, as far as I 381 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:09,519 can go. 382 00:23:10,319 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 2: Speaking to other CIA officers, usually I hear that Russia 383 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,000 is probably the best of all of them in regards 384 00:23:16,079 --> 00:23:18,680 to spies. What do you think about that? 385 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:27,599 Speaker 3: Well, they have a different approach. They Yeah, they recruit 386 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,480 a lot of people and they use you know, honeytrap 387 00:23:30,519 --> 00:23:34,559 operations with men or boys or whatever. That's that's sort 388 00:23:34,559 --> 00:23:37,440 of tried and true for them. The Chinese use family, 389 00:23:38,319 --> 00:23:42,279 so it's it's called the long tail. So if if 390 00:23:42,279 --> 00:23:48,039 somebody has Chinese relatives in the United States and back 391 00:23:48,039 --> 00:23:51,200 in China, they can put pressure on the Chinese family 392 00:23:51,319 --> 00:23:56,319 in China and enforce these recruitments. And I think that 393 00:23:56,480 --> 00:24:00,079 I think the Chinese are very good at that. So 394 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:05,640 it's very and is the Russians. The Russian mob for instance, 395 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,920 in the United States, which is everywhere Miami, Los Angeles, 396 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,839 New York. I've never heard of them going out and 397 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,880 recruiting people. And the problem is that the Russians is there. 398 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,799 They run hot and cold. Remember the ten Russians that 399 00:24:21,839 --> 00:24:25,200 were arrested and traded. I mean that was just sort 400 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:29,640 of all silly. It was it was called director had asked. 401 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,920 They didn't do anything important. But that doesn't mean that 402 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,839 there aren't islands of excellence in Russian intelligence that know 403 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:42,640 what they're doing. Now, clearly the Russians intelligence guys who 404 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,839 convinced Putin to be fine to you know, take Kiev 405 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:50,039 in seventy two hours didn't do all that well, but 406 00:24:50,279 --> 00:24:52,000 you know, at the same time, a lot of the 407 00:24:52,319 --> 00:24:55,839 Russian weaponry that we keep on picking up in Ukraine, 408 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,240 it's got American technology in it. They're good at that. 409 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,839 They steal it and they put in their own weapons, 410 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,920 and their hypersonic missiles and the rest of it are 411 00:25:07,279 --> 00:25:10,440 based on American technology. So yeah, they are good, sometimes 412 00:25:10,519 --> 00:25:10,880 very good. 413 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 2: In regards to the changing of the guards there, as 414 00:25:15,519 --> 00:25:18,960 we saw Yeltsin to Putin, did that change the dynamic 415 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,079 at all when you were investigating this, did it change? 416 00:25:22,279 --> 00:25:24,559 Did it make it more difficult, to make it easier? 417 00:25:25,079 --> 00:25:25,680 Anything at all? 418 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 3: The change it made it much more difficult. Because what 419 00:25:30,279 --> 00:25:33,160 you have to understand is Russia is run by a 420 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,599 deep state. There is no deep state in this country, 421 00:25:36,759 --> 00:25:40,480 but there is in Russia. And Putin was the front 422 00:25:40,519 --> 00:25:45,079 man for a bunch of KGB officers that call themselves statists. 423 00:25:45,799 --> 00:25:51,200 We call him hardline. They oversaw his work in Saint 424 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:57,119 Petersburg when he comes back, and then he gets promoted 425 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,599 into the Kremlin, and then they promote him into the 426 00:26:00,599 --> 00:26:05,279 Prime ministership and then the presidency, and as we saw, 427 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:10,039 once he gets in, every important job in Russia is 428 00:26:10,079 --> 00:26:13,519 a KGP guy every single important one, all the oil 429 00:26:13,519 --> 00:26:14,559 industry and the rest of it. 430 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,799 Speaker 2: They're all KGB guys. 431 00:26:16,839 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 3: All KGB arms, industry, everything, totally yah. And they all 432 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,920 go back to Saint Petersburg or even to Dresden when 433 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,519 Putin was there a lot of the key guys with 434 00:26:26,599 --> 00:26:29,119 him in Dresden, you know, the guys. One of the 435 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,920 guys doing the gas pipeline out of Russia into Germany 436 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:40,799 was with him in Dresden. And so you know what 437 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:45,200 we got with Russia is in nineteen ninety nine. And 438 00:26:45,279 --> 00:26:50,319 I based this on very good journalists and my former colleagues, 439 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:56,359 and there's a census that Putin came to power thanks 440 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:01,799 to a quiet Coupdeta. So people ask, well, why do 441 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,160 we care about the fourth Man is because he assured 442 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,759 we missed this Coupdeta. I'm not saying we could have 443 00:27:08,799 --> 00:27:12,720 done anything about it, but we just simply missed it. 444 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,359 It was in a sense of Pearl Harbor. 445 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 2: So Putin's record, that sounds like you're saying Putin's not 446 00:27:20,519 --> 00:27:22,559 really the one running the whole thing. It's there's a 447 00:27:22,799 --> 00:27:23,960 there's a deep state going on. 448 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:26,880 Speaker 3: Ye I think he's running it now, but he's running 449 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,039 with a consensus of the status. I think they put 450 00:27:30,079 --> 00:27:33,640 him in power that he was along with the program, 451 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,119 but as he became more powerful, I don't think anybody's 452 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,480 going to take putin on today. So I mean he 453 00:27:39,599 --> 00:27:42,200 just he just grew into the job from his point 454 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:42,559 of view. 455 00:27:43,079 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 2: Now speaking on that, now we switch to our side. 456 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,319 We have a lot of transitions in the head of CIA, 457 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,599 head of FBI. We've seen that over the last probably 458 00:27:52,599 --> 00:27:55,000 twelve years. We've seen a lot of changes there. Does 459 00:27:55,039 --> 00:27:58,200 that alter the investigation process too? You know the inside 460 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,640 outs better than I do. Does that start putting little 461 00:28:00,839 --> 00:28:04,000 roadblocks or some people are not as interested in investigating 462 00:28:04,039 --> 00:28:06,000 other people's more interested, and anything like that. 463 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,799 Speaker 3: Well, with older James, the chief of the division, who 464 00:28:10,839 --> 00:28:15,680 should have investigated it, simply didn't. This went on for 465 00:28:15,839 --> 00:28:19,519 years and years where they with aims, we lost all 466 00:28:19,559 --> 00:28:22,720 of our Russian assets, all the important ones, most of them. 467 00:28:24,519 --> 00:28:28,359 And then I mean nobody really took it seriously. And 468 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,759 the guy that was in command of the division, in 469 00:28:30,839 --> 00:28:34,400 charge of the Soviet Union, he was promoted, so there 470 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,039 was no big deal. You know, who cares. And then 471 00:28:38,079 --> 00:28:44,359 by nineteen ninety one, when Gorbachev during the coup we 472 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,000 decided to stop spying in Russia, not just a fact. 473 00:28:47,559 --> 00:28:49,799 I know the people that I mean, I was in 474 00:28:49,839 --> 00:28:53,039 the field, got messages saying, hey, you can turn off 475 00:28:53,039 --> 00:28:56,000 your tail taps on the Russians, you can stop getting 476 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,880 a followed. We're not going to pay for it. You 477 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,000 don't have any Russian Russian contacts we don't care about. 478 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,279 And it was felt that Russia was in such bad 479 00:29:06,359 --> 00:29:09,799 shape that we didn't want to undermine the government by 480 00:29:09,799 --> 00:29:11,440 having a spy scandal or whatever. 481 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 2: Wow, so we've. 482 00:29:15,279 --> 00:29:17,519 Speaker 3: Got all these years. I mean, people don't like to 483 00:29:17,559 --> 00:29:20,240 admit it. And it was a political decision, not just 484 00:29:20,279 --> 00:29:21,359 the CIA. 485 00:29:24,039 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 2: That's a that's not gonna make a lot of friends either. 486 00:29:29,759 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 3: If I sent on invitations for a party, I don't 487 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:32,880 think he'd come. 488 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 2: I guess in our last few minutes together. It's really fascinating. 489 00:29:39,119 --> 00:29:42,480 And again I'm not trying to give everything away, folks, Untelia, 490 00:29:42,519 --> 00:29:44,400 We're only touching the tip of the iceberg. It's called 491 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,759 The Fourth Man, The Hunt for a KGB Spy at 492 00:29:46,799 --> 00:29:48,680 the top of the CIA in the Rise of Putin's 493 00:29:48,759 --> 00:29:52,119 Russia Robert bhar B a Ei. You can get it 494 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,440 on Amazon. It's really a fascinating read. Let me ask 495 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,400 you this, did you what stood out for you the 496 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,640 most in this investigation. Let's say when you're looking through this, 497 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,279 you're going, oh crap, what is that? Did you ever 498 00:30:05,319 --> 00:30:06,200 have one of those moments? 499 00:30:07,319 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 3: I had it because when I was in the CIA, 500 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:15,640 every time I had a case overseas or contacts, I 501 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,759 had to put on a piece of paper, so if 502 00:30:18,759 --> 00:30:22,279 I met somebody in a bar, it was of operational interest. 503 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,079 First thing I did is I went back and I 504 00:30:25,119 --> 00:30:28,920 went into the station, wrote a cable guy's full name, 505 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,920 everything I knew about him, and we'd come back a trace, 506 00:30:32,119 --> 00:30:33,799 what calls. We don't know anything about this guy? We 507 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,759 know this about him. And it was all a matter 508 00:30:36,839 --> 00:30:41,160 of federal records. Everything was recorded when I was in Iraq, 509 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,880 everything I did I recorded and sent in in messages. 510 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,119 I don't think people read them, but I recorded it. 511 00:30:49,839 --> 00:30:55,000 What I found out from this counterintelligence investigation is that 512 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:59,400 it was truly a wilderness of mirrors because nothing was 513 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,559 written in cable traffic or formal files or put on computers. Nothing. 514 00:31:04,359 --> 00:31:08,079 It was all done on easels. It was done on 515 00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:12,720 three by five cards, the whole thing. So it was 516 00:31:12,799 --> 00:31:17,599 fascinating that it's it's like a film, you know, it 517 00:31:18,359 --> 00:31:22,079 is like Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy, but rather than George 518 00:31:22,079 --> 00:31:28,680 Smiley being the SpyCatcher, he's the mole and from a 519 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,759 from a thick. You know, if you turn this into 520 00:31:31,039 --> 00:31:33,839 a drama, it would just be utterly fantastic. 521 00:31:35,279 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, now do you think I guess this is 522 00:31:40,279 --> 00:31:41,440 a hard question to answer. You have to be No, 523 00:31:41,519 --> 00:31:43,240 Sir donis with us. But do you think they'll actually 524 00:31:43,279 --> 00:31:43,759 catch them? 525 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 3: Do you know why I'm on this program. I want 526 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,960 to get out as far and wide to Russians that 527 00:31:52,079 --> 00:31:55,640 there's millions of dollars involved. If somebody comes out with 528 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,920 the evidence. I don't work for the government, but I 529 00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:02,400 would like to see him caught. And the only way 530 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,559 to do that is have a Russian witness to the 531 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:09,319 crime to come out. And that's where I stand. Man. 532 00:32:10,119 --> 00:32:12,519 Speaker 2: Intense stuff again, The book is called The Fourth Man, 533 00:32:12,599 --> 00:32:14,480 The Hunt for a KGB Spy at the top of 534 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,559 the CAA in the Rise of Putin's Russia. You're going 535 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,000 to say something that You're going to say something else. 536 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:21,240 Speaker 3: No, that's it? 537 00:32:21,319 --> 00:32:26,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess what now, there's not really much else 538 00:32:26,119 --> 00:32:31,440 to say about that, right, this right now. But you've 539 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,640 already spoken to you. You even spoken to me before 540 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:38,119 the show. You've spoken to the current CI NFBI heads 541 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:39,119 right as well. 542 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 3: I spoke to to Gina Haspell, huh, And all she 543 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,079 would say is that she'd been briefed on a hunt 544 00:32:47,279 --> 00:32:51,920 for another mole. She didn't give me a name, she 545 00:32:52,039 --> 00:32:55,359 didn't do anything like that. She just said, yeah, I've 546 00:32:55,359 --> 00:32:57,359 been briefed on this. But so that was all piece 547 00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,039 of this. That was a piece of the mosaic that 548 00:32:59,119 --> 00:32:59,799 I put together. 549 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can probably read between the lines if you 550 00:33:02,559 --> 00:33:02,799 have to. 551 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 3: Well, you can read between the lines too much and 552 00:33:06,039 --> 00:33:08,920 you go right off a cliff and your conclusions. But 553 00:33:10,279 --> 00:33:12,160 any of what I do in the book is just 554 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,759 put all those doubts in the book. In what people say, 555 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,680 they could possibly change the narrative, even if it's just 556 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:22,720 a partial answer. 557 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 2: It's a fascinating book. I can't thank you enough for 558 00:33:26,519 --> 00:33:28,440 taking the opportunity to be with us and sharing the 559 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:29,160 story with us. 560 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,039 Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I'm still obsessed, and if someone's got an 561 00:33:32,039 --> 00:33:34,640 answer for me, get in touch. 562 00:33:35,359 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 2: I'm sure some people out there in the CIA are listening, 563 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,519 and I do know from demographic checks. So we do 564 00:33:40,599 --> 00:33:44,039 have listeners in Russia and China, so I get the 565 00:33:44,079 --> 00:33:47,599 funny feeling they're listening as well. It's amazing how the 566 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,359 find podcasts. But again, folks, one more time. The book 567 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:52,240 is called The Fourth Man, The Hunt for a KGB 568 00:33:52,359 --> 00:33:54,319 Spy at the Top of the CIA and the Rise 569 00:33:54,359 --> 00:33:57,759 of Putin's Russia. Robert Bair B A E. R. Robert. 570 00:33:57,759 --> 00:33:59,119 Guess my last question is do you have any other 571 00:33:59,119 --> 00:33:59,839 books coming up? 572 00:34:00,279 --> 00:34:02,359 Speaker 3: Or is going to be Oh no, I'm thinking of 573 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,200 doing one of the thirty four California elections with with 574 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,320 Upton Sinclair and how it sort of changed politics, you know, 575 00:34:08,559 --> 00:34:11,239 fake news and the rest of it. But oh yeah, 576 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:12,760 it's just a just an idea. 577 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 2: I'll be looking forward to that one as well. Thank 578 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,599 you so much again for being with us, and thank 579 00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:21,519 you everyone for listening. Hey, make sure to share, subscribe, 580 00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:23,760 hit that like button. Go check out The Fourth Man, 581 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:25,800 The Hunt for a KGB Spy at the Top of 582 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,400 the CIA and the Rise of Russia.