Speaker 1: In Ireland, we know a thing or two about doing
things the right way, like the right way to do
New Year's resolutions. So I was looking at yoga.
Speaker 2: But then someone said about reformer classes, and I was
considering if maybe juicing is more made you know a
little cold.
Speaker 1: But not all of us are recycling the right way
just yet. Putting cans and bottles in your mixed recycling
bin isn't as good as returning.
Speaker 3: When they're kept separate.
Speaker 1: More can be recycled again and again. But then I thought,
start small. So I'm returning this year's resolution. Return it right, life,
non stop, So don't let coals and flu stop you.
For over forty years, powerful uniflu has helped clear congestion,
runny noses, reduce aches, pains, fever, and relieve headaches and cough.
And vitam and c is built into boost immune systems.
So give cold and flu the old one two with
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Speaker 2: Man like this man letting butterfly latin in wing, big
ban in our force.
Speaker 3: Man, go cause a tree.
Speaker 2: Fowl letting five thousand miles away.
Speaker 3: Man, nobody seen it? Nobody else you see you don't
need no man.
Speaker 2: Like you followed him and you got backed for black Man, go.
Speaker 3: Back and night on the panel.
Speaker 4: Man, all right, Roman Kabinack, Welcome to the Jay Burdon Show.
Speaker 2: How you doing, Man, absolute treaty to be here, and
thank you for having me ongum.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Man, I'm really excited to have you on.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 4: I've never been to South Africa, but every South Africa
I've met, I just love them. It's a great country
and a great culture. And I've been following your stuff
for a while because i am very much interested in
what goes on in your country. Uh, full transparency. This
is sort of an impromptu recording to guest drop out
due to illness and throughout, you know, kind of a
call on social media and you responded very quickly, and
I'm super excited to have you on.
Speaker 3: Man.
Speaker 4: You have YouTube channel, it's quite good beive linked down
in the description. I am a viewer, kind of a
follower of what goes on in your nation. But when
we were talking before, like you know, what are we
going to talk about, you mentioned the South africanization of
the world of the West and by extension, my nation.
So I'm curious, right, let's launch into that. You say
that term South Africanization, what do you mean?
Speaker 2: So the an optimization of the West is basically a
bit of a history list and in for my country.
So I say my country. I was born in France.
I rand in South Africa at the age of three
and haven't been here ever since. I could move back
to France, I could move back to anywhere in Europe.
I choose not to on purpose, because this place is
great and the problem has put the right mindset in
an incredible life on par with the top one percent
anywhere in the world, bar none. So I'm deeply in
love with my adopted country and consider myself patriots. But
for a history lesson of South Africa escual. In the
twentieth century, the great battle was between the local Africanas
and the Yiddish, the Anglers.
Speaker 3: It was the British colony. For a long a time.
Speaker 2: Two wars were fought, the costliest and longest wars of
the British Empire until World War One and after that
of those wars, but in the great real question was
how do we bring together these two people, the Anglers
and the Afriganas together into one nation. You'll notice what's
missing is the Black population of the Africa, which at
the time was relatively small right now is of course
a major majority.
Speaker 3: There was very.
Speaker 2: Few policies or interests into what's called the local population
of South Africa. That changed nineteen eighty four with the
end of what they call apartheid. And since nineteen eighty
four we've basically been run by these quasi communist globalists.
Speaker 3: You have these people who.
Speaker 2: Were educated in Moscow, or were educated in London, or
educated in Sweden, or went to university or had camps
and then the rest of Africa against the struggle against apartheid.
And when they got powered in ninete eighty four through
various means, they didn't really know how to run a country.
So who helped them? All the people who educated them,
the English and Swedish, the un the Americans, to be honest,
and ever since ninety four, it does appear that South
Africa has been in laboratory for every single brain dead
ideology the world's ever known, right from a great aids
versus how to grow food versus how to educate people,
every policy made overseas being it here implemented it and
LAWYS was a disaster for the most part. So what
this organization of the best actually means is, in a
circum context, a big country, multiple groups of people, multiple ethnicities,
and the lack of leadership, and in their vacuum, anything
goes mapears, corporate interests, Russian mercenaries, you name it. And
itably what happens is the country becomes factionalized by who
makes money from it, by hook or by crook. So
if you look at the immigration patterns into Europe in
the past decade, immigration into America in the past twenty
thirty years, you bring in a lot of people from
all over the world, and the authorities in the nation
to welcome them openly and allow them under the auspices
of human rights, to bring in their blood feuds, to
bring in their scams, to bring it frauds, and inevitively,
you just creates a very low trust society and soon
everyone has bob layer around their properties. And that's basically,
in a nutshell, the subf organization of the WIST.
Speaker 4: There are several things there have been on kind of
a run talking about, you know, the Blade Runner films,
and look, partially it's because I'm sick of talking in politics.
It's fun to do some you know, media analysis to
sort of break things up. But there's another element to
there's another element where it is sort of the future
that came true. You know, you have this kind of
teeming diverse city where you know, there is law enforcement,
there are you know, different cultural institutions, but the real
power is corporate. They are the ones who have a
relationship with everyone. And look, you know, I'm no communist,
should be clear at this point, but it is interesting
the degree to which you know, capital is using immigration
as sort of a hammer right to smash things they
don't want. And it's interesting, you know, in our own
in my own country, the history of the labor movement,
you know, you have you know incidences like the you
know the sort of wars that raged in Appalachia. Ah.
The Trump card was always well, we'll get a new
immigrant group from somewhere else. Now obviously, in an era
before you know, the internet or air travel, that was
much more difficult to do, whereas now and we've seen
this this sort of pivot from illegal to legalized mass migration.
It's the same thing. You know, you get that erosion
of you know, labor, of people being able to you know,
look at one another, form some kind of common bond
and you know, fight for some sort of deal, right,
come to some sort of conclusion. And it's interesting to
me to see our own Republican party sort of squirm
on that where they were catapulted into power on an
anti immigration message. You know you, I'm sure you remember
the sort of iconic photo of you know, some twenty
something year old blonde girl with a T shirt that said,
you know, mass deportations, like okay, that's crazy. You know
where did that come from? And it's been interesting to
watch some sort of pivot to well, no illegal immigration,
but the flow still stays no matter what. That need
to you know, eroad labor that need to basically you know,
pull apart the kind of unchosen bonds that you know
form a society, you know, to sort of turn everything
into just this atomized mass that does benefit capital. That's
part of the reason why there's so much money behind immigration,
but also you know, for the government, it's beneficial to
them as well, because then they become the arbiter between
all these different groups. You can turn those into factions,
you can turn those into different you know, wedge groups,
and you know, as we've seen in you know, Minnesota,
most recently with this sort of you know, Somali fraud ring.
There's this interesting tipping point where, you know, an interest
group becomes big enough where they don't need their old
friends anymore. So I'm not sure if you caught this,
but the Democratic mayor of Minneapolis very narrowly won his
race against an explicit Somali candidate. And I think it's
funny that kind of and maybe you can speak to
this as well. Shut up and remember this an interview show.
But there's this sort of tension between the kind of
globalists and we could just call them communists, right, who
are you know, very interested in immigration, interested in diversity,
but also quite progressive on certain social issues, and the
people that they bring in are not. So there's sort
of an uneasy alliance until that client group gets to
the point where it's like, well, I don't need you anymore.
And I think that, you know, that sort of tipping
point is going to be sort of interesting in America.
We've already seen it in the UK with the breakdown
of the relationship between their their Muslim population and you know,
the Labor Party. But I'm curious, right, how do these
you know, progressive globalist types, how do they manage their
relationship with a group of people who have shall we say,
very different you know, cultural values, right, ones that would
be in a different context and most seen as far right. Sorry,
I realized I threw a bunch of you there, ron it.
Speaker 3: No, it's completely fine.
Speaker 2: Well, I think an error we make is that the
people who are advocating for mass migration don't actually look
with the.
Speaker 3: Consequences thereof at all.
Speaker 2: If you look at one of my favorite things on
X which I'm not on anymore for various reasons, but
whenever someone in England says, you know, immigrants are welcome,
someone just screenshots where they live. And then in Britain,
for some reason, the census is racially defined. You can
see in a burrow or in a neighborhood what percentage
of the population is white or Indian or whatever the
case might be. And inevitably, every time one says, every
time someone says immigrants are welcome, we mustn't be so
far right in banned immigration, those people then to live
in ninety percent class white areas of England, so they
don't actually set of the consequences of what they actually
want but I mean there's arious things that you did
say there. But the interesting thing to me is what
is the point? What is the point of all this?
And I think the point of all this is actually demoralization,
and I mean in a real way. I read a
book called The Strong Gods, which hopefully you've read or
heard of at least, and the thesis of a strong
God is that the lesson known from World War Two
is that racially pure, ethnic, strong, homogeneous populations can explode
into this frenzy of violence and you know, orgy of
bloodshed like the Germans dirting world War two. So therefore
the lesson from World War two is to create the
open society. And the open society is this idea that
in fact, it doesn't actually matter who you are, it's
what you believe, right, it's your ability to assimilate into
something that does not define your post. And this is
the idea that immigrants are welcome as long as you assimilate.
But they don't, right, they don't. In very small numbers,
they do. So if you have an immigration over forty
years and there's a million people coming over fifty years, assimilation.
Speaker 3: Is very strong.
Speaker 2: Less you led in the four million over the course
of ten years. Assimilation is very low on purpose, and
even then the terrorists in Western Europe second generation immigrants
not so much for assimilation over there. But in essence,
I think it is about demoralization. In essence, I think
it is an attack on traditional societies in the place
in the world we would call western or white. And
I think there's a massive anti white motive behind all
of this. Yeah, it is that nefarious to me. I've
not forgot my white should I startut? Jereed Taylor not
anything like that. But this only happens in society, that is,
in the world of Mark Christian A. Wielmine White doesn't
happen anywhere else. And I think we should interrogate, be
a bit closer and realize or question why then is.
Speaker 4: Now there's You're definitely correct there. So this story about
the Somali fraud ring in Minnesota, we're not going to
get into the forensic details I've got and risker who
lived there for a long time coming on soon to
really dig into it. There's been an interesting development with
this kid nick I can't remember his last name, who's
gone in as an investigative journalist and gone to all
of these daycares, and what he finds is that many
of them are registered to home addresses. They'll be you know,
dozens of different companies registered to some luxury house with
no children, but a whole lot of on paper children.
So they're getting quite a lot of money from the government.
So we exposed this, right he went in and say, okay,
let's find this business. We'll see what's going on there.
And the reaction has been quite fascinating. So to your
point about this kind of you know, just anti white bigotry,
Tim Walls basically came out and said this is white supremacy,
asking if these government programs are being abused as white supremacist.
And similarly, there was a I can't remember his name,
but he was I believe it the Atlantic, and he
responded to this and this is incorrect in multiple ways,
but he said, you know, I can't wait until we
watch the you know, the interaction between these annoying investigative
journalists and stand your ground laws self defense laws in America.
It's incorrect on one level, Minnesota does not have that law.
He doesn't really know what he's talking about, but he
is effectively advocating for this man to be murdered for
looking into it, and that's fine, right, that is seen
as completely and totally okay. And one of the interesting things.
And Sam Francis's essay in Arco Tyranny remains completely undefeated,
perhaps one of the best essays ever written. And this is,
you know, very much the death of the idea of
effectively like liberal law, the idea that everyone is supposed
to follow the same rules, that part of integrating into
America is accepting the way we do things here, and
that that fiction is all the dead. The only people
in this country who actually have to follow the laws
are the people whose parents built it, right, they are
the ones who are under this massive, you know, administrative state,
this massive you know, it's just overreaching intelligence apparatus that
applies to you. But if you're someone who's been here
for fifteen years, who's you know, defrauding the government, well
then you will have journalists saying you should shoot people
who you know, question how you got that money. You
have the governor of the state who you know you
have stolen money from directly you know, saying that you know,
any investigation is white supremacy, and local news basically saying
already like there's no interest in prosecuting these people. There's
simply too many of them. And you compare that to
you know, the reaction to our you know, the sort
of bizarre January sixth, where you have you know, eighty
year old grandmothers getting dragged out by the FBI, or
you know, even if you have the temerity to stand
in front of an abortion clinic with a sign that says,
maybe don't kill your baby, well we'll arrest you. And
I'm curious, you know, there's sort of a narco tyranny
where you know, the clients of the state are given
almost you know, carte blanche to do whatever they want
and to steal from the population that you know actually
calls this place home. I'm curious, do you see that
same sort of relationship to you know, law enforcement in
South Africa or do you have the advantage of having
a government that is almost too incompetent to.
Speaker 3: Pull that off. It's almost the letter.
Speaker 2: So just to give some some some reference, I used
to work in the government as a chief of stars
to a minister. So a minister here is what you
would call the secretary. You have a secretary of Agriculture me.
I would for the Minister of Agriculture for a close
to you. But I made my name on YouTube, othered
a lot of media things. People don't like me, especially
in main street press, and when I got the job
in government, they came after me like a ton of
breaks and or basically forced in you buy me, which
it did a year later. So I do know the
feeling of that immense pressure that builds up around these
I mean it is brown enveloped journalist. Let's just be
honest with ourselves. There they serve one master and say
if you're not to enfee not me. But in South
Africa you have an almost completely in contant police force
that is basically unable to prosecute anyone meaningfully for whatever
reason whatsoever. But if you go back ten years in
sooth Africa, there was a very famous case. I was
seventy eight year old white woman in Durban, which is
a city on the coast open King of the and
it's quite well known That's African's tendency for littering, for
throwing trash out in public areas is quite well known.
And then she just made a comments is like it's
you know, it's terrible to see all this trash on
the beach. It's almost like monkeys have been here. It
was hounded to her death by the judicial system, by journalists,
by police.
Speaker 3: She was seventy eight.
Speaker 2: I mean, she posed no threat to anyone whatsoever, and
then was petty Sparrow and I completely destroyed her life.
She died two years later, I assume from the stress
of it. But it was in the news all the
time for a figure of speech, right, for a figure
of speech. But nothing will ever happen.
Speaker 3: Just mentioned it.
Speaker 4: You live in a place where there actually are monkeys around,
Like this is irrelevant, This is a relevant point of comparison.
That like not at all in a racial context. I
mean like as an animal, right, yes, yes, of course, yeah,
so like that, that's even as and look this, we've
had a very similar situations in America where common phrase
is you know again like using that, using monkey as
just a turn of phrase has happened multiple times where
that becomes, you know, a major racialized incident, and at
least on you know, North America, it's like, well, we
don't have any of them around, so it's slightly more
unusual to bring that up. But it's stupid it's completely
and totally stupid and very clearly, you know an example
that making an example of some right you will be
you know, dragged into the court of public opinion to
have your life ruined, which.
Speaker 2: Is what they which is what they did with me
as obstensibly someone who's white to join the government, which
is which is a rarity in and of itself. But
there have been many politicians I've been calling for genocide
against minorities, openly calling for genocide against Jews or Africanas
or against whatever the case be, open hate speech against
various groups, including including gays, including whoever you name it.
There's always been a politician some way that they have
expressed themselves h fully, which is actually a crime in
our country, which I don't think there should be. But anyway,
whereas I said, black people on a liberal on x
and that was the most racist statement they could find.
Speaker 4: So the double standards are obvious. Yeah, that's a maybe
enough set on that point. So when we talk about
and you mentioned the fact that the police is completely
and totally incompetent, you've already mentioned as well, you know,
the the littering and the fact that you know, many
people are forced to sort of, you know, fortify their homes.
How recent of a development is that? Is this something
that happened very quickly? Was this kind of slow growing
lack of security? And what is it la like living
in a truly low trust society where you have to
take your own physical security into consideration like that.
Speaker 2: So I grew up in a place that is about
an hour away from a big city, growing up when
I reached South Africa at the age of three till
about thirteen. I grew up on what's called a plot,
which is basically a small farm, but we were not farmers.
We went to the city to work what my parents
did at least, And I can remember in nineteen ninety two,
nine eighty three, the barbeyer came up, the e liter
gates came up, the alarm came up, guns were in
the house. So I've always known South Africa as a
load trust society, as a house being a fortified compound.
It's very It's not a new development, but I think
it happened very quickly post nineteen ninety so it's the
only way I know.
Speaker 3: Of South Africa.
Speaker 2: In fact, if you drive to small towns in what's
called the Karow, which is the interior of the country,
which is a desert. You still see no fences, no nothing,
and it's very strange. I'm like these people are like, okay,
it's like to be known. My crime is quite bad.
But obviously in some areas it's not. So it always
has been that way. In fact, you see it in Brazil,
you see it in South America quite a lot, so
it's not it's not unique to us by any means.
And the fact that we have to do that and
spend quite a quite a lot of capital and money
on our houses. And it's not just security. I have
to have my own water because the water supply is
irregulars to be, to use the term colloquially, And I
also am off brewed in terms of electrical power. I've
got many solar panels and many batteries and I can
basically run off what I produce on my house, which is.
Speaker 3: That's annoying.
Speaker 2: It costs a lot of money to do, but it
is one of those gratifying things. Over that I'm very
well prepared well anything that might materialize in the future,
whatever that might be. It's not done because I'm a
prev it's done just to have a quality of life.
I have children at home, I've got a wife at
I don't want to blackouts, I don't want to run
out of waterme I can just do it all by myself.
Don't need permission, I don't need a license. You can
just literally do things in my country. And that's why
it's such an effective.
Speaker 4: It's an interesting thing because you know, when we're talking
about this growing South africanization, one of the relatively recent developments,
and this is confined to certain locations, predominantly city cycle
Los Angeles, where you have a very wealthy population and
also uh some of the most insane uh rulership in
the nation. Where you are starting to see the growth
of private security. Whereas, really, as long as there has
been a police force in America, which is in the
grand scheme of things, relatively recent development, but still that
was entirely socialized. You could depend on picking up your
phone and there would be someone there to protect you
if needed, free of charge. Obviously you pay taxes, but
that's a different, different discussion. Whereas now we are seeing
the birth of private security. You started to see the
initial I guess, kind of run of this during the
summer of Floyd and these sweeping riots, and all of
a sudden, even at places not far away from where
I live, which is in a nice enough area, they're
full time private security at certain areas and certain neighborhoods.
All right, that's relatively unique, but you'd see it every
once in a while, and then it started to creep
to restaurants and bars, like, wait a minute, this is
there's a guy wearing a whole lot of kit and
maybe it's a little bit ridiculous and he's over prepared
for what he's doing, but still there's a man there
whose job it is to inflict violence should the neees arise.
And the people running the business think that that is
enough of a concern that they've devoted money to it.
And now it's got into celebrities, right, wealthy people who
you know, have a lot of you know, nice things
and want to protect that, and so they're going outside
traditional channels.
Speaker 3: I know that.
Speaker 4: You you mentioned, uh, you mentioned, you know, you inept police.
That's I think an interesting development in the sort of
the decay of trust in a society where the you know,
the civic institutions are no longer trusted. I've talked to
our mutual friend Canine Reaper a number of times about
the actual kind of nuts and bolts of you know,
private security in your country. But what does that look like?
What does it look like when you can no longer
depend on you know, physical protection. I know you mentioned
being off grid, right, the utilities themselves are not dependable.
But can you, I guess, quantify and explain that relationship
for people who are perhaps unused to it.
Speaker 2: Certainly so in the area where I alvin, Johannesburg, which
is the largest city in in the country. I think
there's million people in the creator region urbanized, so very big.
In the area where I live, it's a very nice
area within Johannesburg. Every it covers let's say, roughly four
square miles. There are three cars pickup trucks with two
men inside, one of the shotgun, one of the L
fifteen type rifle, a full the troof best and these
three cars and six men two patrols every single day,
multiple times a day, twenty four hours a day, turning
sixty five days of the year. On my on my
car keys there's a button which I press. Those same
men are at my front door within about a minute.
IDs be. The police station is half a mile down
the road. I walk there and I speak to the officers,
mainly to do administrative things that they're allowed to stamp
dot eumans to show there's not a forgery or something
like that. The police are not incompetent because they are
bad at their jobs. The police are incompetent because there's
no running vehicles. The radios are from nineteen ninety eight,
the weapons system is from nineteen eighty eight. They are
allowed to practice on the shooting range once a year
and only ten bullets at a time. Everything else they
have to pay for, on top of the fact that
they're not well paid, on top of the fact that
the toilets at the police station don't work, on top
of the fact just cascades. The people buy and large
are decent people. They want to try to do what
they can. But when eighty seven of the money is
stolen by cronies, Bedell is actually put into the system
which allowed police officers too. I can do the jobs
properties So in terms of security, that's what it feels like.
There's a patrol. I know everyone of by heart. I
can call them on the cell phone. They're in my
gate within a minute if I need them, which is
never the case. I I've got various stepends. I carry
one every day with me. My wife and I track
each other on our phones if we go out just
to make sure that she gets two issues going properly,
or I'll drop you off or we go together. So
I mean, that's really the sort of low trust society.
I mean in my area, I can walk, really, which
I do. I take my kids for a walk. We
go to the public park which is privately run so
it's very nice. And the other park a mile down
the road is overrun by homeless immigrants drug users, so
we can't use that one. But the only difference between
the two is these people here give a shit. These
others do not. And if you and in Africa and
especially South Africa, if you don't care, it'll just get
taken away from you. So you can have a job,
you can have a family, you can have all the
normal responsibilities people have, but you need to have all
these other responsiveness as well, just so you can function
as a normal twenty first century family in essence. So
that's a lot of work, but it also is very
rewarding as well.
Speaker 4: It's an interesting dynamic, and I'm glad you brought that up,
that you can have it if you care about it.
I've noticed this where I live with education, that I
talk to older people, you know, many of whom are
quite conservative, quite religiously devout, and for them, the idea
that public school, you know, going to a government run
school is a dangerous thing. They almost cannot comprehend it.
To them, it is just what you did. And so
when they see younger people, their children and their grandchildren
worrying about, well, how are we going to do this,
you can see a sort of dissonance there. They don't
understand it because they lived in a society where you
could simply default do whatever one does, and that was
a safe and responsible thing to do with their children,
whereas now, you know, in addition to you know, the
Joway say LGBTQ element, which is very much present, an
element of you know, just lack of physical security. I mean,
there was a kid killed with a knife by you know,
two other students not too long ago, and that is
surely an extreme example, but the level of physical violence
is almost like a prison. All of a sudden that
becomes something where if you want your children to be educated. Well,
that is no longer something you can default into. You
have to accept, as you've said, a whole number of responsibilities.
You have to either make more money, you have to
educate them yourselves, you have to organize with other parents.
And it's still doable entirely, doesn't even necessarily have to
be directly very expensive. But it's an interesting kind of
step down on the level of civilization, right that those
institutions are no longer what it says on the tin,
so to speak. And look, you know, I'm not, you know,
the biggest fan of public education. That's a conversation for
another day, but it is interesting that point of like,
well you can still have it, you just have to
personalize you yourself has to take care of many of
those things. Similarly, as you've said with power, I live
in a place where power is completely and totally reliable.
It's not something I ever have to think about. In
your case, you can still have it, but it's no
longer something you can depend on. And it's interesting. And
the reason I brought up older people is because you know,
many of these older people are you know, wealthier, just
you know, it's how it works. Many of them are
quite progressive, which is also interesting. And so you see
that they have been throughout their lives completely and totally
insulated from the consequences of their beliefs. They went to
a school pre nineteen sixty four which was run by
a certain set of cultural values. And so now when
they hear about you know, X y Z plan to
you know, diversify the school or to you know, change
how offenses are processed so that we can't kick kids
out because everyone deserves a chance for them. They're thinking
back to a world which doesn't exist anymore, and for
the past fifty year skid of things getting worse, it
was never in front of them. And similarly, you know,
with you know, as regards you know, Somali's or any
other kind of large immigrant group, many of these people
do not bear the consequences of their actions. And so
I'm curious, do you see a dynamic similar to that
in your culture where there are people who have never
been forced to live with the consequences of their beliefs
and so live in this sort of you know, blessed bubble, right,
They live in this sort of garden type environment. If
you see what I'm getting at their Roman.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean imosently my neighbors, to be honest with you,
and it tends to be a white woman for some reason,
you know, the types who would vote for Nelson Mandela
and then then complain about the arter effects of that,
so that the most vocal on the sort of neighborhood
groups saying other powers out again. And then I say, listen,
you live in a house worth half a million dollars,
I'm sure you can afford ten thousand dollars to have
an inverter or a solar panel or something like that.
And just asking that question is draws people into a
complete rage.
Speaker 3: The people that you have describe.
Speaker 2: So the old people in my country are not a
problem at all, for the most part, that all the
people are not either.
Speaker 3: The problem is my generation.
Speaker 2: I'm thirty seven, so I was five years old in
nineteen hnenty four when those elections came around. But the
people who are ten years older than me, they still
hold onto this idea that the promise of ninety four
is still something that can happen. And it was it was,
you know, it was this prosperous diverse what's called the
rainbow nation, where twelve distinct ethnic groups can stand out,
come together and define what just skids.
Speaker 3: Good luck.
Speaker 2: Luck with those fantasies. But but they tend to be
the most hostile to any form of of of self
reliance or self interest by ordinary citizens, like even in
the most basic way. For example, I had a campaign
many years ago about in my country, rape and jenner
based violence or real things in terms of men on women.
Speaker 3: It's a real thing. It's prevalent and that sustain.
Speaker 2: So an idea was, why why not just teach girls
it's cool to shoot guns or maybe issue them as
stet firearm license as soon as they're turn eighteen. Gives
them more power, more leverage. It's a great force multiplier
against the stronger men. And the outrage at this was
hysterical at the time, but in essence the traditional was
known men speed better and I was liked none. But
why I just should rape this in the head like
believe me, behavior will change like almost immediately. The campaign
was a bit tiny and cheek, but it The people
that are for the most are of course the ones
who are not who don't have that outrage. The people
stuff for the most, of course, are were living in
the pre urban areas, who are trying to get up
in the world but can't find a job because there's
no economic growth for thirty years. Very few people talk
to those are very few of the elites or people
in my neighborhood actually speak to them except to give
them their jobs as maids or gardeners or something like that.
But in God forbid, you just have a cup of
tea with them and let them explain what their challenges are. Because,
as always, the best political analysts of my country are
uber drivers and working class people, because they understand the
price pressures. They understand inflation, they understand budgets, they understand
what things cost. They can see the degradation of the
public services, the public infrastructure, the public trust. They used
to take a train three years ago, now that to
take a taxi at three times the price for the
same route. They understand the problems. But once you refuse
to understand it on liberals in my age category, because
they don't have to limit the consequences thereof. So it's
certainly the same scenario as you have with your boomers,
whereas our boomers tend to be like quite based good reason.
Speaker 4: Well, and I think I think that's an interesting relationship
because ultimately the people you're describing have roughly the same
relationship to your nation's cultural revolution. You know, they were
existed in a certain age range of that incident. The uh,
it's funny as well, you know here that there's that
same suspicion of self reliance, which I think is very interesting.
You know, the idea that if you are interested in,
you know, not even necessarily prepping, but having something as
sort of a safety net for yourself or for your family,
that is viewed with a great deal of suspicion. There's
something wrong with you. Why don't you trust this system?
You obviously saw a great deal of that in our
medical system a while back. For a word that I
already have a strike for mentioning on YouTube, so we
won't say it. But it is an interesting thing there, right.
The idea is that at the same moment that the
system is sort of crumbling and losing its ability to
make good on its promises, right, losing its ability to
fulfill its end of the social contract, any any dissent,
even in a minor kind of passive way of like
well i'll have this just in case, is viewed as
a sign that you were some sort of you know,
paranoid lunatic, you know, out on the fringes of society.
And I get it again from those people who grew
up when everything worked. I understand it. It's rational even
you know, from their perspective, even if you information has changed.
But for me, it's particularly baffling from the people who
are suffering the consequences of you know, a system crumbling,
you know who, out of one side of their mouth
will complain about all of the social ills I'm sure
you've heard about, but then on the other being like, oh, well,
what are you some sort of you know, gun nut
lunatic for you know, having a little bit of dried
food in the basement. It's an interesting it's an interesting
thing there. And it's especially irritating to me when it
is someone who views themselves as a rebel right, who
views themselves as someone who is speaking truth to power,
a phrase you might have heard before, and then the
moment when power says hey, this is what you should think,
the switch flips and they're completely and totally, you know,
in in lockstep. So I want to pivot back to that,
if we can use this term, right, this sort of
South African shit lib you mentioned that, you know, there's
that even asking about solar panels, something that you know
here is sort of progressive coded is seen as you know,
an a front.
Speaker 3: Why is that?
Speaker 4: Is it basically that even kind of passively, you're signaling
that not all as well in the country, like what's
the what's the explanation there?
Speaker 2: So far a day lade ago you would be seen as, oh,
you just don't trust the black government, right, so of
course you're trying to do as much as you can
to insulate yourself against black governance because obviously you're racist.
But I mean the same people who made that argument
got side of panels five years ago, of course.
Speaker 3: So now they have side the panels and private.
Speaker 2: Medical insurance, and the kids go to private schools, and
they holiday in the USA three times a year of course, right,
and they have security guard ass out their house. So thankfully,
even the ship lifers don't trust the system in my country,
like they really don't. They really want to trust a
system someway and they always say, well, we could be
like Norway or Denmark or you know, other extremely white,
homogeneous societies. And my answer way is well, yeah, we
tried that. It ended in nineteen four, So don't say
it too loudly, but if.
Speaker 4: You were, you were globally discouraged from that experiment.
Speaker 3: And I'll lear to that. Yeah, pretty much so. But
there is this idea that.
Speaker 2: There must be a black government, or my arguments, it's
argument made by the sort of the chattering media ship
in the class.
Speaker 3: Right, we're eighty percent black.
Speaker 2: We need these people to be aspired, So therefore we
need black leadership everywhere, including incorporate, including every school, including
in every political party, and especially the governments. Of course,
why you had your say for forty years you must
just sort of keep quiet now by your taxes like
like good little financial slaves. But at the end of
the day, like you had your to you screwed it
up because untold damage. So therefore you're basically a second
class citizen. That was the feeling, let's say, five years ago.
Now what you're finding is, I think people have finally
lost that last drop of hope that the revolutionary government
of natal to four, which is that aftercon National Congress
has any hope to have changed this country for the better.
And I think even its most ardent supporters can see
that that is not in fact the case, and ironically,
in a country with such low economic growth, such crime,
you know, such deprivation, is no revolutionary zeal. I'm not
afraid of turning into Venezuela tomorrow. I'm not afraid of
becoming Zimbabwe tomorrow because by and large, and this is
something that maybe my previous staging guests on the show
and I will disagree with, but by and large I
find the local start of the population, irrespective of race,
other than the ship of whites. They're conservative people. They
want to come to that works. They're not revolutionaries. They
don't need a utopia. They don't have these grand ideas
on how to fix things. They just want to have
a job, make sure that their kids get educated properly,
make sure they can afford to put food on the table,
and hopefully go on a holiday once every two years,
and hopefully get a new car one every five years.
These are not people who lived in the clouds. They
live in reality. They're deeply pragmatic people, and I think
it's reflected in the fact that despite all the troubles
we as a country have gone through, there's been very
little revolutionary zeal in that sort of violent, pornographic way
that we've seen in other areas of the world. It's
been been than a lot of that. And the hard
lived parties that have been in control for the past
fifty years are declining in support at a very rapid rate.
Wants more replaced, I don't know, but it's an interesting
trend that not many people are are announcing for some
reason or other.
Speaker 4: That is an interesting thing because, you know.
Speaker 3: You get a lot of.
Speaker 4: Obviously, it is fairly rare for South Africa to break
into the mainstream press in America, but it gets a
lot more play and the kind of right wing press
for obvious reasons, and you get a lot of This
may be a stupid phrase, but sort of like e
Ff Doomerism, you know, the idea that you know it
is going to become, you know, another Zimbabwe. But I
think that that portrait you're painting right of this, this
sort of everything is so shit that no one really
cares enough to have a revolution is kind of an
interesting thing, and it sort of a stake through a heart,
through the heart of the kind of Marxist conception right
where it's this you know, you will mobilize the great
working class because you know it is people longing for
this kind of utopian freedom and it's like, well, at
a certain point, like people just want to have a
normal life that you know, meets you know, kind of
base functions. And yeah, I hadn't heard that before, but
it does make sense, right, given the kind of variables
at play. I'm curious what does because the last time
you know, we really you guys hit our news was
all in relations to USAID and tariffs both. So what
has been the coverage in South Africa of you know,
AID being at least, you know, on paper suspended? And
why does that matter?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 4: Why does your con to what degree does your country
depend on you?
Speaker 3: Four and eight?
Speaker 4: Because you know, at least compared to the rest of
the continent, you know, it seems as if it's a
developed ish country, So to what degree is that a factor?
And then also what does what do the upcoming years
look like for South Africa?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 4: What direction is your nation headed? Is it just sort
of this like eternal you know, a n C kind
of in sertification where it's like they're stuck in power,
they can't leave and things are slowly declining, Like, so,
what what's happening there? I realized a very open ended question,
but you know you're probably my best source for it.
Speaker 2: I having to answer is and before I mean before
this podcast ends, and I hope more people are listening
to it at this age. So Africa, I'm not living
here because I'm some sort of doc tourists like you know,
like look at me. I'm living in like Chernobyl, and
you know I want to make money from it that
I live a great life. I love a phenomenal life. Okay,
I can. We have world class food, We'll class nature.
People are friendly, good friends. My family is here. My
house is huge and cost very little compared to the
sort of an average American house. I've got much more
space than any of my European family. They come here
to relax. It's a great country to live in if
you have the resources, if you have the mindset, and
even if you don't, it's still a great country. Crime
is an issue. There are ways to mitigate that, but
all the rest easily liverable, and I think more people should.
I need to visit before thinking of some sort of
Mad Max apocalypse, because that it certainly is not.
Speaker 3: But onto your question.
Speaker 2: Us aid in terms of not usaid, but aid was
given by George Bush the second to combat AIDS. So
AIDS was a so Afoka was I think that the
country with the most AIDS per capita for various reasons
which I'm not scientifically ever looked into, but basically as
it's like horrific sech practices basicly and sorry, maybe you
should censor that or not to show YouTube will allow
that to stand. So George Brush the second and Finnly
Republicans residents in general have been very friendly towards South
Africa in particular, much more than Democrats.
Speaker 3: Democrats love to.
Speaker 2: Bring in DEI even though we convented it, or they
want to bring in whatever, more like LGBT into whatever,
and we just say no, our country doesn't do LGBT.
It allowed to e strike to gays are allowed to
be around, and it has been a thing called gay
marriage is two thousand and six but nothing. It doesn't
really matter, but not at all in the consciousness of
the people. So in turn fall we had aide to
combat hid eights and that's basically been a racket for
the past twenty years, which quickly divets it into COVID.
At the time, if I'm a kid, say that and
basically it's the same sort of mechanism lots of money
to give a lot of drugs to a lot of
people to solve the crisis, and all that was taken
away very quickly last year when USID shut down. And
I haven't seen any detrimental effects whatsoever. I know some
trans clinic closed or only one in the country, so
I don't know we had one until we closed, So
I I only see upsides to aid ending to my country.
And as for tariffs and things like that, thankfully, our
government has been in public that like Donald Trump is
being asked, are Donald Trump's being difficult? But in private
but like, okay, we really need to make a deal.
So it looks like we have bypassed most of the
tariffs in terms of had exceptions for most of the
things that we export to the US. So there have
been some said on that. But if you read the
mainstream media on Donald Trump, he's a madman, like no
one understands him. Is acting like he has dreams and
he wakes up and then just like doesn't know anything
about South Africa, the man knows everything about it. But
every country in the world has got the last interious apparatus.
There is one issue though, which which I hope to
bring up with you, in that I think focusing on
the murder, brutal murder and deaths of white Afrikaans farmers
is a mistake. Not because of that happening. It is happening,
but I think other people who are also subjected two
horrific deprivations under this government are now forced by this
binary choice by Trump to only focus on africaners. I
think if you focused on the fact that So Africa
hasn't grown as a country economically, culturally, socially, black people
are there's more Black people unemployed today than at any
time in the history of our country. If we just
focused on the real deprivations of real people, I think
he will get a lot more support from average South
Africans by focusing only on Africanas, even though it exists
and it is true and it's a major problem. I
think he's alienating a lot of people he would support
him otherwise. Of Black South African support Donald Trump based
on a survey published last year. So that's one tactical
mistake that I think needs to be rectified. But overall,
I think people actually do like Trump. The average citizen
and they want nothing more than to have a Trump
like figure here not we the same policies but with
the same energy, but the same map of progress, because yeah,
we just have managers, right. The managers don't make anything,
They just coordinate reals or steal it in our case.
So those are the most thoughts genuity on the questions
I've answered been Yeah.
Speaker 4: Two things there. One I think that there and this
is exploded as the kind of American New Right has
become more relevant. Is that, as with anything that becomes popular,
it becomes a way to make money. And there are
very few things that go as viral as they're sort
of doom and gloom. Right, the idea, and you saw
this from you Southern and a few others that there's
a you know, a white genocide going on in South Africa.
And again I've talked about the farm murders. You know,
I my South African friends are by and large Africaners,
and so this should not be taken as dismissing that
at all, but by over sensationalizing it, it sort of
robbed it of its true impact, and it became one
of many ways to generate outrage and generate clicks because
it is outrageous, it is horrific, but it became because
of that, it became part of a certain narrative, and
it becomes tainted by many of the people pushing it
as awful as it is to say, and so it
becomes politicized. It becomes part of the sort of daily Grist,
the Daily Grist grind of kind of politics. And it's
upsetting because it shouldn't be right. This should be something
that everyone looks at and says, all right, stop that
that's horrible, but it sort of entered into a political realm.
And on that as well. To your point about your
life in South Africa being quite positive, I think that's
something Americans need to realize. Like you look at Brazil,
look at South Africa again. If you care, if you
have the resources, you can live a very good life. Now, look,
it would be better to live in a society where
you didn't have to make those sort of tough choices,
where you didn't have to, you know, anxiously watch your
wife every time she goes to get her hair done.
But let's say that isn't a choice. Like it's happening
as it seems to be in America. That does not
mean it is all over. It just means that you
have to go about your life differently. You have to
bring more things into your control that were previously kind
of socialized or externalized. And in the grand scheme of
things like that's not the worst. That's how your ancestors lived,
maybe for different reasons, but it's doable, it's survivable. And
I wanted to append that because you know, I think
that the doomerism surrounding your country is ultimately understandable. You
see a country that's dysfunctional, it seems like we're headed
that direction, and so you know, oppose that we want
to have a functional system. But assuming we don't have
the choice, assuming it is an inevitable reality, which doesn't
have to be, it doesn't mean it's all over. I
mean you've you know, I talked to you know, Conscious
caricle or and spend Zeel, you know a couple of
times a year, and you know he's done great work organizing,
and it's always something that he talks about is that
you know, there are ways around these problems. There are
the cultures that were capable of building societies, know how
to do these sort of things. So it's not the
end per se as I think you often hear it
kind of referred to. Am I accurate there?
Speaker 2: Roman absolutely absolutely it might be so when you say
what we said, right that that's the farm maurders are
being politicized and and grifted upon, I am not talking
about South Africans, and I don't think one hundred percent.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and.
Speaker 4: Canadian woman right, yeah.
Speaker 2: Right, So Conscious character you on your show is a
good friend of mine. We agree on minds nine percent
of the things. For the most part, that the work they
do on farm murders is is deepest scientific, deeply rigorous,
and very important.
Speaker 3: And there is a.
Speaker 2: Straw man being built in my country that people like
Conscious Caricle go to America tell Donald Trump directly there's
a white genocide and he must act with haste. And
then somehow Donald Trump listened to him only not anyone else,
and like files off tweets about white genocide in South Africa,
that is not the case at all. I've seen what
is being presented in Washington by delegations from my country,
not government delegations, proud delegations from Africana institutions. And it's
rigorous work, very good work, and I'm not talking about
them when I said this drifting about far murders. Drifting
is done, if I may say, on your side of
the Atlantic rather than on my side.
Speaker 4: But well, a lot of it comes from the other
side of the Indian Ocean as well. There's a lot
of it coming from the self Carton and from a
certain infamous Malaysian. But I'm sorry, I'll throw it back
to you.
Speaker 3: Well, yes I can't. I'm not.
Speaker 2: You know, I actually interviewed him ten years ago, and
I'll put I'm the lu Kid's guy who I get
to interview this guy?
Speaker 4: I was yet bad form to be uh to be
caddy on the internet, but I couldn't resist.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, and I'm gonna tell you it does the
most boring interview of my life. So anyway us for
all to leave that in the boss. What was your
actual substantive questions? Sorry I have forgone centers.
Speaker 4: Oh, I don't even know if it was a question.
I think it was more of an observation talking about,
you know, how that has become. Oh no, we were
talking about, you know the fact that being forced to
build your own institutions, your own kind of you know, projects,
is not the worst thing in the world. Right, it's
how cultures became great. You're you sort of have that memory.
Speaker 3: It's I mean, so.
Speaker 2: I'm in is not the most exciting thing in the
world to do, right, It's an adventure. I mean, I
know so many people who have left my country together
to Europe, or to go to Australia, or to go
to wherever.
Speaker 3: Some of the shiftall areas.
Speaker 2: And they are bored are their minds. They don't have
to think about anything. Maybe they think about what to
order Starbucks? What a dosimal life, What a terrible life?
Everything is ten times cheap and ten times worse. They
don't interact with the Australian population, or the English population
or whatever wherever they are. Why don't you stay here
and big a trench? As conscious Cariacle to use one
of his court, it's just a bigger trench for goodness sake.
We did it before. Everyone of our ancestors dug a
trench somehow somewhere for a good reason. I want to
stay in there and do it. The state can't stop us.
They tacompetent. The rest of the population are doing in trench.
Who is in their own various ways like you should
really look at the rise of nationalism of the Zulu people.
For example, They've got a monarch in the southern part
of my country, and I think they're going to be
a force to be written with in time to come.
They might even wish to succeed from the Republic, from
the Unitary State, which is broadly fake because it was
created by the British in nineteen ten. So there could
be secession in time. It could be such session of
the Western Cape to become a liberal democracy and become
an offshoot of the American Empire. There's also a possibility
within my lifetime, there's seventy possibilities about what might happen
in South Africa. Why wouldn't you want to be here?
Speaker 3: It is the most exciting time to be alive as
a as a South African. So that's sort of an interesting.
Speaker 4: It's sort of an interesting thing because you heard a
lot ten years ago, fifteen years ago, this kind of
well meaning but kind of hand ringing about the crisis
of meaning. And I think about this a lot that
you know, there's no one living in a cave who
worries about, you know, existential questions, right, It's it's real
it's immediate. No one's asking, you know, who am I
as they're being attacked by a saber tooth tiger. And
you know, many of these these people, these academics, were
talking about the fact that, you know, life is pointless.
You know that it feels as if there's no struggle anymore,
and that's coming back. It may have been sort of
the you know, the monkey's paw like irony, but you know,
the idea of you know, you get your wish, but
there's a you know, there's sort of a a hook
associated with it, and I think that that is something
right we were headed for, you know, and it may
take longer here than there, a time where material considerations,
where safety is no longer assumed, you know it is
it is something that you have to you know, strive for,
and that look, that's a certain type of meaning. There's
a certain type of adventure there. And I think particularly
for young men who have been you know, in America
in particularly, very much sidelined, very much kind of made redundant, well,
you know, you're getting an adventure whether you want.
Speaker 3: It or not.
Speaker 4: And it's sort of a I don't know, it's sort
of a silver lining to that cloud.
Speaker 2: And I mean as a young man in America, if
you or someone like you're not you specifically, but people watching.
I mean, if you want an adventure, come studying nature
conservation in South Africa. You get to shoot poaches to
save rhyme as and elephants and no one be's an island. Fantastic. Yeah, well,
I mean private security. There's so many adventures to get.
And you know, Knaan repos are very good friend of
mine as well. I mean that man just lives on
adrenaline every day he is. It's like being in a
Felujah in two eleven four, Like I said, drug ding
here and kidnapping green here, and a cash in transit
highs there, and he's on the sea and who knows
what he's doing all things good? And I mean you,
that's sort of life cannot be lived in eighty percent
of the world. It just cannot. I'm not saying it's
terrifically healthy to live on a drenaline all the time
all that. It's it's the most relaxing way to live,
not in the slightest. But I don't have a practice
of meaning whatsoever. I know exactly what I means to
do I know exactly where my projects are, I know
exactly what next gun to buy or whatever the case
might be. And not because I want to shoot someone
who's going to break into my house, but because I'll
just join shooting club and get together with other men
who or women who share the same passions as I do,
and who all you know, can tell you how to
get off loopholes when required because the police don't know
what's going on. Five year is really great and it's
ail down to mindset. And I know quite a few
people who lived from England or Australia and they're trying
to be sort of Instagram influences that they've got to
kept down mostly which is one of the most beautiful
cities in the world. But I'm too real Africa. I'm
to Johannesburger Conterboratoria. I come to the northern paws of
South Africa. There's many adventures to be had and while
worth your time, as long as you don't think I
want a limb right. If you believe in quality of ideology,
you're gonna have a terrible time here. If you truly
believe in real diversity of people, you can.
Speaker 3: Have a one for one.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's an interesting point what you said about in
a wildlife conservation. I have a great interview it's been
a year and a half now with with Rory Duncan
talking about exactly that, and man, it's crazy for those
who haven't heard it. Similar to Cane and Reaper, the
incidental events to the story would be the highlight of
someone else's story. I will not torture you with my
horrible impersonation of his accent, but he'll he'll talk about
something and it'll be you know, him traping through the
jungle with you know, a couple of local guides and
they'll they'll be involved in the ambush. He'll shoot someone,
and then the rest of the story is and then
we chase this guy. I'm like, wait a minute, can
we go back to the beginning, the inciting incident? You
know that? That sounds interesting enough? But Roman, we're fast
coming up on time. Man, this is a great conversation.
I'll have to have you on again soon. But man,
where can people find you? Where can they find your work?
Speaker 2: So, I mean they can find you on x at
Roman Kevinank which is my full name, and on YouTube
it's Undercurrents. I'm not too sure what I'm doing with
the channel, but I used to do sort of short
form documentaries based on South Africa and your politics around
South Africa. I think I'll bring it back during the
course of this year. I'll just have a few projects
to get done first, trying to focus on that's if
you wanted to know me x and on YouTube and
the currency to other businesses bust all well.
Speaker 4: Sure thing. Make sure to check those out. They will
be linked in the description. As far as my stuff,
Jay Burton Show, Apple, Spotify YouTube, this is what I do.
Can't do it without your support. If you want to
send me a few bucks a month, it's not a lot,
It's like five bucks for whatever twenty some episodes. You
get them early in ad free. I know the ads
are irritating, but it pays my mortgage. Or you can
check out our sponsor Axios Remote Fitness Coaching. JD is
an absolute physical specimen and he is very tolerant of me,
but he does make fun of me on the internet
for being gay and for not lifting as much weights
as he does. If that sounds interesting to you, you
don't even have to use the workouts, You just get
into the group chat and you can call me whatever
name you want. So check out Axious remote fitness coaching
Roman Who's a ton of fun. Man, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3: What a bitter thank you for having me on, looking
forward to the next one.
Speaker 4: To everyone at home, keep your head up. I can't
last forever.
Speaker 5: Good night, But but what's
Speaker 3: Gary