WEBVTT

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to part two of our series about the

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<v Speaker 1>unexplained death and murder of k Hall. The last time

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<v Speaker 1>we left off, Jules was kind of having some doubt

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<v Speaker 1>here about whether or not Bob could have killed k.

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<v Speaker 1>But now I'm going to share some new information that

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<v Speaker 1>casts Bob into a very suspicious light once again. So

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<v Speaker 1>in December of nineteen eighty eight, a very bizarre incident

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<v Speaker 1>took place where Bob suddenly decided to call up Special

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<v Speaker 1>Agent Riley and said that he wanted to have a

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<v Speaker 1>meeting because he quote unquote wanted a Christmas present, which

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<v Speaker 1>is a very weird thing to say. It turned out

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<v Speaker 1>that Bob had started a relationship with another woman, and

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<v Speaker 1>he actually told Riley, I hope that this case can

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<v Speaker 1>be solved by Christmas so that I can finally put

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<v Speaker 1>this behind me and I can start my new relationship

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<v Speaker 1>with this other woman and move on with my life.

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<v Speaker 1>But of course, Riley said to Bob that I think

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<v Speaker 1>you are the only logical suspect here, So how am

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<v Speaker 1>I going to solve this case if you were the

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<v Speaker 1>one who did it. So Bob proposed this scenario where

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<v Speaker 1>the newspapers would publish a story stating that Kay's death

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<v Speaker 1>was an accident and this might prompt the killer to

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<v Speaker 1>come forward and admit to what they did. And then

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<v Speaker 1>Bob then said that hypothetically, if I was the killer

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<v Speaker 1>and I needed motivation to come forward, I would have

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<v Speaker 1>some terms, which would include a legal document from the

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<v Speaker 1>Commonwealth Attorney which declared Kay's death to be an accident

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<v Speaker 1>and guaranteed no charges or consequences for anyone who confessed

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<v Speaker 1>to the crime. So Riley got the sense here that

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<v Speaker 1>Bob may have been trying to make a confession, but

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<v Speaker 1>he was trying to get assurance is that there wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>be any consequences for it. So it's kind of a

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<v Speaker 1>weird thing where Bob is tired of the pressure. He

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<v Speaker 1>wants the case to be closed, so he thinks that

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<v Speaker 1>if I confess to it, then I will get off

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<v Speaker 1>scott free. But you killed your wife, so obviously that's

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<v Speaker 1>not going to happen.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay. This totally reminds me. I've got this friend who's

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<v Speaker 2>got two kids and they're really close in age, a

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<v Speaker 2>boy and a girl, and if she's trying to figure

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<v Speaker 2>out who did something bad, like, for example, there was

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<v Speaker 2>a cookie jar and it was smashed, and obviously one

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<v Speaker 2>of them had tried to go up on the counter

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<v Speaker 2>and like get a cookie out of the jar with

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<v Speaker 2>their little hands. They weren't able to do, so jar

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<v Speaker 2>smashes on the ground. And now you've got two people,

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<v Speaker 2>two little people. Neither of them are copping to what happened.

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<v Speaker 2>So they would separate them. Both parents would separate them,

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<v Speaker 2>and then they would ask each one what do you

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<v Speaker 2>think should happen to the guilty party? So, whoever did this,

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<v Speaker 2>what should happen to them? And then you'd have one say, well,

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<v Speaker 2>they should be grounded or you know, a week or whatever,

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<v Speaker 2>and then the other one should say, well, I think

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<v Speaker 2>that they should be forgiven because knowing what they did

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<v Speaker 2>is punishment enough. And so you would always know who

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<v Speaker 2>the guilty party is because they would say that whomever

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<v Speaker 2>did this should have a very lenient sentence. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think that applies to Bob here, because you've got Bob

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<v Speaker 2>coming forward and being like if I did it, like okay,

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<v Speaker 2>call back to OJ Simpson here, if I did it,

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<v Speaker 2>I would require these things and basically it would absolve

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<v Speaker 2>him of all legal responsibility and so it would just

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<v Speaker 2>be closure or resolution in the sense that you would

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<v Speaker 2>know who did it, but you wouldn't have any legal recourse.

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<v Speaker 2>It sounds ridiculous, and I'm sorry you want a Christmas

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<v Speaker 2>present Like you're trying to solve the potential murder of

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<v Speaker 2>your wife. Kay. You should want that solved because you

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<v Speaker 2>love her and you want justice for her, not because

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<v Speaker 2>you want a Christmas present to embark on your new

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<v Speaker 2>life with your new partner. It's just really weird.

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<v Speaker 1>It is like, I've never heard of anything like this

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<v Speaker 1>in a murder case before, and I think he made

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<v Speaker 1>the perfect analogy. That's what I thought of. It sounds

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<v Speaker 1>like kids like who have done some minor indiscretion like

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<v Speaker 1>stealing a cookie, and they think they're going to get

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<v Speaker 1>in trouble, but they're trying to gauge in there to see, well,

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<v Speaker 1>I'll admit what I did just as long as I

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<v Speaker 1>receive assurances that I'm not punished quite badly. But here

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<v Speaker 1>you have a grown man who's under suspicion for the

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<v Speaker 1>murder of his wife and he's acting like a kid

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<v Speaker 1>who stole something from the cookie jar. And it's like,

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<v Speaker 1>I think Special Agent Riley is thinking we're adults here,

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<v Speaker 1>Like this is ridiculous. We should not be doing this

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<v Speaker 1>in a murder case. But he decided to go along

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<v Speaker 1>with him because he thought, if I string Bob along,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe I can finally convince him to give a confession.

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<v Speaker 1>So what happened is Riley asked, if I went out

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<v Speaker 1>and got such a document and put Bob Paul's name

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<v Speaker 1>on it, then when you like to see it, and

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<v Speaker 1>Bob replied, quote before Christmas. And the next part is

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<v Speaker 1>so strange that I have to read an exact word

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<v Speaker 1>for word excerpt from an official decision that I found

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<v Speaker 1>online from the Virginia Court of Appeals because this is

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<v Speaker 1>just so bizarre. So here's the exact quote. Quote. Hall

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<v Speaker 1>told Riley that if Riley really wanted to make it

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<v Speaker 1>tempting as hell to me, he should call Hall's attorney

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<v Speaker 1>to inquire if Hall could still collect under the uninsured

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<v Speaker 1>motorist provisions of his automobile insurance if he had accidentally

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<v Speaker 1>killed his wife. End quote. So yes, it sounds like

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<v Speaker 1>he was literally inquiring, if I killed my wife, can

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<v Speaker 1>I still collect on the insurance money from her death?

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<v Speaker 2>Like?

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<v Speaker 1>What the hell? Whoa Bob?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean? Any sort of good will that he had

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<v Speaker 2>which wasn't goodwill for Bob as a person. It was

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<v Speaker 2>just goodwill. From the logistics point of view, it seems

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<v Speaker 2>so difficult that he could have done this, But his behavior,

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<v Speaker 2>his subsequent behavior after the fact, the way he's acting

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<v Speaker 2>is very like Jewel Kaylor esque and I'm not here

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<v Speaker 2>for it. And I think that when you're inquiring if

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<v Speaker 2>you did it, could you still collect on that insurance?

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<v Speaker 2>That is so bold, don't you think?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I can't think of another case like this where

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<v Speaker 1>a suspect has been so brazen. I mean, it's one

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<v Speaker 1>thing to try to admit to your spouse's death and

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<v Speaker 1>not receive any punishment, but the idea that you're trying

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<v Speaker 1>to arrange a plea deal of some sort where you

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<v Speaker 1>will financially profit, Like, my god, did you actually think

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<v Speaker 1>this was gonna work?

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I guess who knows what goes through his mind.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't think he's got a formal education, and based

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<v Speaker 2>on the way that he's acted, he seems like he's

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit maybe potentially emotionally stunted. So he's thinking

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<v Speaker 2>like that whole thing with I want a Christmas present.

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<v Speaker 2>The way that he's interacting and communicating with law enforcement.

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<v Speaker 2>It feels juvenile, doesn't it.

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<v Speaker 1>It does. Yeah, Like he's sounding like a kid who's

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<v Speaker 1>been taught stealing from the cookie jar. Like I've seen

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<v Speaker 1>some terrible suspects in murder investigation, but I can't think

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<v Speaker 1>of any other examples where the suspect has been brazen

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<v Speaker 1>enough to do.

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<v Speaker 2>This and like say less. If you did indeed kill

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<v Speaker 2>your wife, then just say less. Don't go to the authorities,

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<v Speaker 2>don't ask for a Christmas present, don't propose some bizarre

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<v Speaker 2>scenario where they put out this thing in the paper

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<v Speaker 2>and say that it was an accident, and then you

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<v Speaker 2>get some letter from you know, legal letters saying that

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<v Speaker 2>you're not going to be held responsible if you did it.

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<v Speaker 2>That's what you'd need, I mean seriously, like you need

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<v Speaker 2>to say less if you are indeed responsible, and wait

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<v Speaker 2>until they come to you and then have a go

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<v Speaker 2>through your attorney. I think that at the time there

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<v Speaker 2>was a lot less knowledge of how one should behave

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<v Speaker 2>when being confronted with the authorities accusing you, whether you're

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<v Speaker 2>guilty or not. So at the time there was you

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<v Speaker 2>know less of that information floating around that like whether

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<v Speaker 2>you're guilty or not, you need to have an attorney

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<v Speaker 2>to protect yourself and protect your rights. And we've got

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<v Speaker 2>Bob out here just making the weirdest, most odd moves

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<v Speaker 2>that I've seen, and I can't think of any other

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<v Speaker 2>case that parallels this.

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<v Speaker 1>It might be a thing where he just didn't understand

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<v Speaker 1>how the legal process works, because he may have been thinking, well,

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<v Speaker 1>if I kill Kay and there's no evidence against me,

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<v Speaker 1>then the whole thing will just go away, and maybe

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<v Speaker 1>not been aware that this is an active investigation, like

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<v Speaker 1>they will not close it until it's solved. Then they

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<v Speaker 1>arrest his suspect, and he's probably thinking to himself that

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<v Speaker 1>everyone would just move on. But here he is in

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<v Speaker 1>the community where it's no big secret that he was

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<v Speaker 1>accused of domestic violence. There were problems in the marriage,

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<v Speaker 1>so he's probably feeling like he's a pariah or something

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<v Speaker 1>like that. But he just wants to move on and

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<v Speaker 1>marry this new woman and thinks that, well, if I

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<v Speaker 1>come here and make this quasi confession and don't get punished,

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<v Speaker 1>they will put this behind us. But he isn't aware that, no,

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<v Speaker 1>that's not how the legal system and murder investigations work.

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<v Speaker 2>Bob needs some closure from the trauma of either killing

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<v Speaker 2>his wife or being accused of killing his wife, and

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<v Speaker 2>so that's why he's going so it will get neatly

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<v Speaker 2>wrapped up into this little bow and filed away and

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<v Speaker 2>then people will stop talking about it. But again, that's

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<v Speaker 2>just such a juvenile expectation of the way that criminal

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<v Speaker 2>proceedings of any kind would work.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, he has served time in prison for drug dealing,

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<v Speaker 1>so he's not naive. He knows that if you commit

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<v Speaker 1>a crime, you get punished in no matter if you

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<v Speaker 1>admit to it or not.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, maybe he was feeling guilty and so he just

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<v Speaker 2>and not guilty enough that he was going to come

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<v Speaker 2>forward and take responsibility for what he did, but guilty

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<v Speaker 2>enough that he needed to know that nobody thought that

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<v Speaker 2>he did it, or that somebody couldn't come after him

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<v Speaker 2>at a later date. Because I can imagine if you're

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<v Speaker 2>somebody that did commit murder, and even if you're not

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<v Speaker 2>charged and you think you likely got away with it,

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<v Speaker 2>it will like be this like brainworm where it's going

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<v Speaker 2>to like eat away at you, wondering if one day

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<v Speaker 2>they're going to knock on your door and they're going

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<v Speaker 2>to charge you with that crime. I can't imagine you

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<v Speaker 2>would ever get a full night sleep unless somebody he

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't have the typical emotional bandwidth that a normal person

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<v Speaker 2>does and they don't feel things the same way, and

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<v Speaker 2>so they're able to deal with that stress or they

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<v Speaker 2>don't even experience the stress. But it doesn't sound like

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<v Speaker 2>that's Bob.

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<v Speaker 1>No, definitely not like someone like Juwel Kaylor is someone

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<v Speaker 1>that I feel like feels that he has gotten away

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<v Speaker 1>with it, that no one will ever find his missing

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<v Speaker 1>wife's body, so he will never get arrested. So that's

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<v Speaker 1>why he's willing to go on national TV and like

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<v Speaker 1>practically act so nonchalant about it, Whereas Bob is probably

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<v Speaker 1>a lot more paranoid and has that feeling that one

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<v Speaker 1>of these days they're going to come over and arrest me.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's why he's wanting to get this huge burn

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<v Speaker 1>office shoulders and hope that he can get away with

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<v Speaker 1>it without any punishment. So this even gets weirder, believe

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<v Speaker 1>it or not, because, like I said, agent Riley was

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<v Speaker 1>going along with this, so he decided to give up

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<v Speaker 1>this fake document where he was writing out the conditions

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<v Speaker 1>of this hypothetical plea deal, which would include no criminal prosecution,

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<v Speaker 1>no loss of Bob's driver's license, believe it or not,

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<v Speaker 1>no loss of financial benefits, and no public mention of

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<v Speaker 1>his name. And believe it or not, Bob was brazed

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<v Speaker 1>enough to suggest an additional provision in which he could

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<v Speaker 1>burn down his current house and use the insurance money

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<v Speaker 1>to build a new house for his current girlfriend without

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<v Speaker 1>any repercussions. And Riley says, no, I can't include this

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<v Speaker 1>in the document because insurance fraud is a crime, and

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<v Speaker 1>Bob flat out said, quote, I bet I could do

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<v Speaker 1>it in such a way they'll say it was an accident,

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<v Speaker 1>just like we're doing with this no difference end quote.

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<v Speaker 1>And I see your eyes bulging.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh, but I said, oh wow, this man, he's operating

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<v Speaker 3>like you would think if a child's committed murder and

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<v Speaker 3>they were thinking about how they could get out of it.

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<v Speaker 2>That is exactly the way that Bob is moving right now.

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<v Speaker 2>It all feels juvenile, it feels ridiculous. But like you said,

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<v Speaker 2>he is a naive tor criminal proceedings or being questioned

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<v Speaker 2>by police because you spent time in prison, So we

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<v Speaker 2>could give him the benefit of the dot if he

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<v Speaker 2>hadn't and be like maybe he's just unfamiliar with this

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<v Speaker 2>and he's immature in a lot of ways. But I

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<v Speaker 2>don't really find a I can't see a way where

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<v Speaker 2>we can make allowances for that here, because Bob should

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<v Speaker 2>have had some kind of experience being questioned and with

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<v Speaker 2>legal proceedings how things go. I don't know how much

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<v Speaker 2>his attorney has explained stuff to him, but this just

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<v Speaker 2>feels so naive and ridiculous. You're proposing insurance fraud to

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<v Speaker 2>the police and saying that you could get away with

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<v Speaker 2>it or make it look like it was an accident,

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<v Speaker 2>like we're doing with this other thing here, Like what

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<v Speaker 2>the other thing, like the death of your wife? What

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<v Speaker 2>is happening?

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<v Speaker 1>I can only imagine like Special Agent Riley's reaction while

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<v Speaker 1>he's hearing all this, because he's probably worked on a

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<v Speaker 1>number of murder investigations and never heard a suspect say

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<v Speaker 1>anything like this before. But in the end, he never

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<v Speaker 1>did get an official confession to Kay's death, so unfortunately

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<v Speaker 1>this didn't really lead anywhere, And of course they did

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<v Speaker 1>not put together an official legal document in which Bob

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<v Speaker 1>would be absolved from all these sins if he made

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<v Speaker 1>a confession. But when Bob was asked about this later on,

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<v Speaker 1>he said, Oh, I never actually meant any of the

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<v Speaker 1>things that I said about burning down my house or

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<v Speaker 1>collecting oncasion insurance. He said he was just leading Riley

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<v Speaker 1>on to see where he was in the investigation and

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<v Speaker 1>making a genuine effort to devise a strategy which might

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<v Speaker 1>prompt the real guilty party to come forward and confess

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<v Speaker 1>to Kay's deaths. So his explanation is this was all

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<v Speaker 1>just an elaborate ruse, but it sounded like he was

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<v Speaker 1>pretty much playing himself and only made people all the

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<v Speaker 1>more suspicious of him. Sure Bob, Sure, yeah, real genius

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<v Speaker 1>here coming up with this idea. So the case would

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<v Speaker 1>finally receive national attention. It was featured on Unsolved Mysteries

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<v Speaker 1>in October of nineteen eighty nine. I remember watching it

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<v Speaker 1>on TV at the time and many years afterwards, and

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<v Speaker 1>when I saw Bob's interview, I used to think that, well,

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<v Speaker 1>there's a possibility that he wasn't guilty here. And they

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<v Speaker 1>did talk about the domestic violence and Bob's troubling history,

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<v Speaker 1>but they also did a very effective job of talking

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<v Speaker 1>about the timeline and the logistics of committing this crime.

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<v Speaker 1>So I was willing to believe that Bob was innocent.

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<v Speaker 1>He didn't come across too badly when he was interviewed.

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<v Speaker 1>He did come across better than Jewel Kaylor and a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of the other suspicious Bowses who were interviewed on

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<v Speaker 1>the show. But one piece of information the segment conveniently

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<v Speaker 1>didn't mention was this whole interrogation segment with Special Agent

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<v Speaker 1>Riley where it sounded like he was going to make

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<v Speaker 1>a confession. So when I learned about this, like many

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<v Speaker 1>years later, when I originally watched the segment, I was

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<v Speaker 1>like fifty to fifty and willing to give Bob the

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00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:40.600
<v Speaker 1>benefit of the doubt. But once I read about this

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<v Speaker 1>weird quasi confession, I was like, well, that looks pretty

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<v Speaker 1>bad for Bob. And if they had included this on

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00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:48.559
<v Speaker 1>the show, there probably wouldn't have been as much mystery

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<v Speaker 1>about whether or not Bob was guilty.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I feel like if they would have included that,

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00:14:54.360 --> 00:14:58.639
<v Speaker 2>it makes it far more compelling. I'm like, at eighty

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00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:02.159
<v Speaker 2>percent Bob did it, twenty percent it might have been

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00:15:02.440 --> 00:15:05.120
<v Speaker 2>somebody else or might have happened some other way, but

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<v Speaker 2>strongly leaning towards Bob. The only thing he has working

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<v Speaker 2>for him. Is the really difficult logistics with his behavior

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00:15:12.039 --> 00:15:14.840
<v Speaker 2>in the aftermath of Kay's death, The way that he

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<v Speaker 2>was with authorities wanting this document, talking about having a

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<v Speaker 2>provision put in, about burning down his house and getting

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00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:24.720
<v Speaker 2>the insurance money so he could get a new place.

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<v Speaker 2>It's all just it's wild, and it makes me think

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<v Speaker 2>that these are the actions of a guilty man, not

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<v Speaker 2>of a man in mourning, not of a man who

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00:15:34.200 --> 00:15:38.679
<v Speaker 2>just isn't all that intelligent or mature. It's it seems

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<v Speaker 2>to be guilt. It seems to be deception and guilt.

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<v Speaker 2>And he's really trying to find a way that he

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<v Speaker 2>can get out of this and so that he doesn't

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00:15:46.279 --> 00:15:49.879
<v Speaker 2>have a potential legal situation looming. And he thinks that

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00:15:50.000 --> 00:15:53.399
<v Speaker 2>he's smart enough that if he gets these this legal

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<v Speaker 2>paperwork in order that he'll be able to assure that

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00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:01.559
<v Speaker 2>his future will be bright because nobody will be able

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<v Speaker 2>to come after him for K's murder.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's what I'm thinking as well. And given the circumstances,

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00:16:07.279 --> 00:16:09.960
<v Speaker 1>actually surprising that he didn't say anything more stupid on

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<v Speaker 1>National TV. He didn't pull a Jewel Kler and say

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<v Speaker 1>that well, it was tough losing k at first, but

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00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:17.320
<v Speaker 1>ever since I moved on and got remarried, things are

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00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:20.240
<v Speaker 1>really pretty good. But maybe he had his attorney in

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00:16:20.240 --> 00:16:22.799
<v Speaker 1>the room who prevented him from saying anything incriminating.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, if you're going to be going on TV,

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00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:28.480
<v Speaker 2>you would really hope that you would have an attorney

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00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:31.159
<v Speaker 2>who was present to coach you with that. And I wonder,

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<v Speaker 2>like with Jewel Kayler, if there wasn't an element of

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00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:37.879
<v Speaker 2>duper's delight where he was going to say just enough

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00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:40.159
<v Speaker 2>to like have people talking, because he knew that nobody

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<v Speaker 2>was ever going to find Dottie and that the probability

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00:16:43.360 --> 00:16:45.600
<v Speaker 2>that they would ever be able to bring charges against

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00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:48.840
<v Speaker 2>him were so low that he could almost say whatever

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00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:52.799
<v Speaker 2>he wanted, veiled slightly, and he knew that they didn't

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00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:56.399
<v Speaker 2>really have any recourse because no district attorney is going

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<v Speaker 2>to bring charges just because he looks like a suspicious

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00:16:59.240 --> 00:17:00.759
<v Speaker 2>weirdo on mysteries.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and technically, if that was his strategy, it's worked

331
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<v Speaker 1>because it's been forty years and they've never found Dottie

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<v Speaker 1>and the case is still unsolved. But that obviously doesn't

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00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:11.279
<v Speaker 1>work as well in a case where you have the

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00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:14.559
<v Speaker 1>victims' bodies like here where you could potentially find new

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00:17:14.599 --> 00:17:18.359
<v Speaker 1>evidence and make an arrest at any point. So the

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00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:21.200
<v Speaker 1>Unsaw Mystery segment brought in a whole bunch of new tips,

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00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:24.599
<v Speaker 1>but the most important was from a woman named Carol Vandergrift,

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00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:28.200
<v Speaker 1>who was a former friend of Kay Hall's. It turned

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00:17:28.200 --> 00:17:30.599
<v Speaker 1>out that on July the thirty first, nineteen eighty seven,

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<v Speaker 1>just two months before Kay was killed, Carol became the

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<v Speaker 1>victim of a violent crime herself when she was shot

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00:17:37.039 --> 00:17:40.680
<v Speaker 1>in the head inside her home in Middleburg, Virginia. She

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<v Speaker 1>managed to make it to the phone and call nine

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<v Speaker 1>to one one for help because miraculously she survived, but

345
00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:49.000
<v Speaker 1>in case she didn't, she took the initiative to actually

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00:17:49.039 --> 00:17:52.240
<v Speaker 1>write the word William in blood on the floor before

347
00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:54.759
<v Speaker 1>she crawled to the phone, and sure enough, she was

348
00:17:54.799 --> 00:17:59.160
<v Speaker 1>referring to her ex husband, William Douglas Carter. She claimed

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<v Speaker 1>that William broke in to her house and shot her

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<v Speaker 1>in the head, and that he had worn rubber gloves

351
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<v Speaker 1>to get his fingerprints on the gun, and then afterwards

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<v Speaker 1>he put the gun in her hand to make it

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<v Speaker 1>look like it was a suicide in a self inflicted

354
00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:15.279
<v Speaker 1>gunshot wound, but because she wound up surviving, she was

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<v Speaker 1>able to make it to the phone call for help

356
00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:21.920
<v Speaker 1>and incriminate him. William maintained his innocence because when they

357
00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:24.720
<v Speaker 1>arrested him, he was at his horse farm several hundred

358
00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:28.920
<v Speaker 1>miles away in Saratoga Springs, New York, and he claimed

359
00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:31.519
<v Speaker 1>that he was home the entire time, and actually pointed

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<v Speaker 1>to his phone records saying that, see, I made a

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<v Speaker 1>whole bunch of long distance phone calls from my house

362
00:18:36.759 --> 00:18:39.240
<v Speaker 1>to prove I was there. But of course these calls

363
00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:42.680
<v Speaker 1>took place a couple hours before Carol was shot. So

364
00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:45.559
<v Speaker 1>the instantly assumed that he tried to fabricate an alibi

365
00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:49.400
<v Speaker 1>for himself, and that after killing Carol, he drove immediately

366
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<v Speaker 1>from Virginia back to his farm in New York and

367
00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:54.319
<v Speaker 1>made a whole bunch of phone calls just to intentionally

368
00:18:54.599 --> 00:18:56.799
<v Speaker 1>create an alibi and show that he was at home.

369
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<v Speaker 1>And does this sound a bit familiar?

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<v Speaker 2>Ye? Yeah, this definitely sounds familiar. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>So sure enough, Carol, when she phoned the UNSAWD Mystery's

372
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<v Speaker 1>tip line, said that, yes, I was good friends with Kay,

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<v Speaker 1>and after I survived my ordeal, I spoke to Kay

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00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:16.039
<v Speaker 1>and Bob and told them about what my ex husband did.

375
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<v Speaker 1>So Bob definitely would have been aware of this at

376
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<v Speaker 1>the time Kay was killed, so they figured she probably

377
00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:25.039
<v Speaker 1>killed her then thought of what happened with William and Carroll,

378
00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:27.440
<v Speaker 1>and then raced back home and made a phone call

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00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:29.160
<v Speaker 1>to his daughter so that it would be on the

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00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:32.559
<v Speaker 1>record and he could establish an alibi for himself. And

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00:19:32.920 --> 00:19:36.480
<v Speaker 1>this made investigators think that this is finally our smoking gun.

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00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:39.359
<v Speaker 1>It's the one piece of evidence we need to finally

383
00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:43.200
<v Speaker 1>indict Bob. So in January of nineteen ninety, only two

384
00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:46.160
<v Speaker 1>months after the Unsaw Mystery segment aired, he was finally

385
00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:47.839
<v Speaker 1>charged with second degree murder.

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00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:53.359
<v Speaker 2>Okay, wow, So I mean there's nothing impressive about Bob So, Like,

387
00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:57.640
<v Speaker 2>don't take my comment here as me being impressed by him.

388
00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:02.240
<v Speaker 2>But the fact that he was able to be very,

389
00:20:02.359 --> 00:20:06.200
<v Speaker 2>very intoxicated and he would get dropped off at home

390
00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:09.920
<v Speaker 2>and he comes up with this plan and he's able

391
00:20:09.960 --> 00:20:14.640
<v Speaker 2>to find Kay and able to then have the foresight

392
00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:19.200
<v Speaker 2>to make that call to establish an alibi. It seems

393
00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:22.680
<v Speaker 2>far more intelligent than the Bob that we've seen in

394
00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:23.960
<v Speaker 2>the aftermath of the crime.

395
00:20:24.839 --> 00:20:27.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's my conumdrum with this entire case is that

396
00:20:27.759 --> 00:20:30.920
<v Speaker 1>the idea seems plausible. But I also don't think that

397
00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:34.279
<v Speaker 1>this was a premeditated murder plot, because obviously, when they

398
00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:36.200
<v Speaker 1>were at the country club that night and got into

399
00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:38.839
<v Speaker 1>a fight and then kay decided to drive off in

400
00:20:38.920 --> 00:20:41.759
<v Speaker 1>her pickup truck and leave Bob stranded, he couldnt have

401
00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:44.559
<v Speaker 1>anticipated that. So when he learned that morning that his

402
00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:47.119
<v Speaker 1>wife is going to get a fifty thousand dollars inheritance,

403
00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:50.400
<v Speaker 1>I don't think he started orchestrating this elaborate murder plot.

404
00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:52.920
<v Speaker 1>So I do think that if he killed her, it

405
00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:55.319
<v Speaker 1>was a crime of passion, a heat of the moment thing,

406
00:20:55.359 --> 00:20:58.240
<v Speaker 1>and then maybe at that moment he decided, ooh, I'm

407
00:20:58.279 --> 00:21:00.519
<v Speaker 1>remembering that this friend of Kayse was murdered in a

408
00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:03.240
<v Speaker 1>similar faction. So I'm going to drive home and I'm

409
00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:05.440
<v Speaker 1>going to make a phone call to establish an alibi,

410
00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:08.720
<v Speaker 1>which seems like at odds with how stupid he's asking

411
00:21:09.119 --> 00:21:11.720
<v Speaker 1>during the police interview. And I think another conundrum with

412
00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:14.400
<v Speaker 1>that is that well, William attempted to do that but

413
00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:16.640
<v Speaker 1>it did not work, So how does he think that

414
00:21:16.680 --> 00:21:19.480
<v Speaker 1>it's going to work in this case? If he just

415
00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:22.799
<v Speaker 1>rushes home and makes a phone call, so it's kind

416
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:24.440
<v Speaker 1>of a weird thing where you could go either way.

417
00:21:24.519 --> 00:21:26.839
<v Speaker 1>I wish I had more details about the phone call

418
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:29.680
<v Speaker 1>he made to his daughters, because if she said that, well,

419
00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:32.440
<v Speaker 1>he had something important that we needed to talk about,

420
00:21:32.519 --> 00:21:34.400
<v Speaker 1>and that there was a legitimate reason for him to

421
00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:37.839
<v Speaker 1>be calling me, then it seems unlikely that he's fabricating it.

422
00:21:37.880 --> 00:21:39.559
<v Speaker 1>But if he just decided to pick up the phone

423
00:21:39.559 --> 00:21:42.119
<v Speaker 1>at like nine forty seven at night and say, hey,

424
00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:44.160
<v Speaker 1>just wanted to call and see how you're doing. Just

425
00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:46.400
<v Speaker 1>got nothing to talk about, then it looks like he's

426
00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:48.799
<v Speaker 1>making this call just to get it on the record,

427
00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:50.359
<v Speaker 1>to fabricate an alibi.

428
00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:54.039
<v Speaker 2>I mean, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

429
00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:57.480
<v Speaker 2>So I think it's possible that Bob could have decided

430
00:21:57.480 --> 00:21:59.279
<v Speaker 2>to call his daughter in order for it to be

431
00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:03.519
<v Speaker 2>this alibi, and that was the smartest looking move that

432
00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:05.799
<v Speaker 2>he's made, even though it didn't work for his friend.

433
00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:08.079
<v Speaker 2>He might have thought, Okay, well this is going to

434
00:22:08.119 --> 00:22:10.960
<v Speaker 2>be tight. Logistically. I found her so quickly and she's

435
00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:14.440
<v Speaker 2>so far away that if I make this call now,

436
00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:17.319
<v Speaker 2>then it's going to be very difficult for them to

437
00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:21.440
<v Speaker 2>prove that it was me. Who killed K. And I mean,

438
00:22:21.480 --> 00:22:25.160
<v Speaker 2>that's what we're talking about now, That's what is the

439
00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:28.920
<v Speaker 2>real sticking point with this case is the logistics of everything,

440
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:31.960
<v Speaker 2>how drunk Bob was. But I do agree with you.

441
00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:34.400
<v Speaker 2>If he did kill K, which it seems like there

442
00:22:34.480 --> 00:22:37.720
<v Speaker 2>is a very strong likelihood he did, I don't believe

443
00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:40.880
<v Speaker 2>that he was a premeditated murder. I think maybe he

444
00:22:40.960 --> 00:22:44.920
<v Speaker 2>wanted to confront K and then things took a turn

445
00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:47.200
<v Speaker 2>and he decided to in the heat of the moment.

446
00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:50.319
<v Speaker 2>But if he planned to do it, it just seems like

447
00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:55.400
<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of messy elements that he couldn't control here.

448
00:22:56.480 --> 00:22:59.359
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I think it might have like he had

449
00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:01.519
<v Speaker 1>like kind of a bad break when they found Kay's

450
00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:03.799
<v Speaker 1>body at nine point fifty five, which was only eight

451
00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:06.720
<v Speaker 1>minutes after he made the phone call, because if she

452
00:23:06.759 --> 00:23:09.359
<v Speaker 1>had remained undiscovered out there for several hours and it

453
00:23:09.400 --> 00:23:12.279
<v Speaker 1>was hard to pinpoint her time of death, he could

454
00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:14.759
<v Speaker 1>easily say I was at home the entire time I

455
00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:16.920
<v Speaker 1>made this phone call and you can't pin it on me.

456
00:23:17.400 --> 00:23:20.400
<v Speaker 1>But because they found her body and she was still warm,

457
00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:22.279
<v Speaker 1>and they were able to determine that she was killed

458
00:23:22.279 --> 00:23:25.200
<v Speaker 1>a very short time before she was found, they were

459
00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:28.000
<v Speaker 1>able to establish a timeline and realize that, well, we

460
00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:30.519
<v Speaker 1>know Bob made this phone call eight minutes before she

461
00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:33.279
<v Speaker 1>was discovered, but it is possible he could have been

462
00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:35.400
<v Speaker 1>out there and gone out to kill her and rushed

463
00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:36.519
<v Speaker 1>home in time to make the.

464
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:39.720
<v Speaker 2>Call, like if she was cold, or they could have

465
00:23:39.799 --> 00:23:43.000
<v Speaker 2>checked her internal temperature and they know how much drops

466
00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:46.119
<v Speaker 2>like per hour, and they would have checked, and maybe

467
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:49.200
<v Speaker 2>she was murdered a lot closer to when Bob would

468
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:52.240
<v Speaker 2>have been dropped off. That could have potentially cleared him

469
00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:54.839
<v Speaker 2>because we know it would have taken in seventeen ish

470
00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:57.680
<v Speaker 2>minutes to drive to where she was, and then you

471
00:23:57.720 --> 00:23:59.720
<v Speaker 2>also have to carry out the act. You got to

472
00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:01.960
<v Speaker 2>get it to that struggle which resulted in like the

473
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:05.200
<v Speaker 2>nails missing and everything. So I would think that that

474
00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:08.079
<v Speaker 2>whole ordeal would take at least thirty minutes. So if

475
00:24:08.119 --> 00:24:11.759
<v Speaker 2>she was cooler, then it would have cleared him, like,

476
00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:14.319
<v Speaker 2>but the fact that she was still warm, it made

477
00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:15.519
<v Speaker 2>it all very possible.

478
00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:19.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, exactly. And you just mentioned the nails there, and

479
00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:21.920
<v Speaker 1>that was another issue is that there was no physical

480
00:24:21.960 --> 00:24:25.119
<v Speaker 1>evidence placing Bob at the scene, even if they found

481
00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:28.799
<v Speaker 1>his DNA fingerprints or his hairs inside K's pickup truck.

482
00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:31.920
<v Speaker 1>That wouldn't mean anything because obviously she had driven him

483
00:24:31.920 --> 00:24:33.559
<v Speaker 1>to the country club and he was in the truck

484
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:36.000
<v Speaker 1>all the time, so it's natural that you're gonna find

485
00:24:36.039 --> 00:24:38.960
<v Speaker 1>his DNA and his prints and all that stuff there.

486
00:24:39.400 --> 00:24:41.559
<v Speaker 1>And of course this was nineteen eighty seven, before they

487
00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:44.440
<v Speaker 1>were even doing DNA testing. And I think that if

488
00:24:44.480 --> 00:24:46.319
<v Speaker 1>there was one thing that could have linked Bob to

489
00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:48.440
<v Speaker 1>the scene, it was the fake nails, because if they

490
00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:52.319
<v Speaker 1>had found skin cells belonging to him underneath the underneath

491
00:24:52.359 --> 00:24:55.079
<v Speaker 1>the nails, and that would be hard to explain. But

492
00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:57.400
<v Speaker 1>of course this was pre DNA testing, so I don't

493
00:24:57.440 --> 00:25:00.200
<v Speaker 1>think that they ever performed anything like that. But that

494
00:25:00.240 --> 00:25:02.759
<v Speaker 1>would become another sticking point when Bob went to trial,

495
00:25:02.839 --> 00:25:05.359
<v Speaker 1>is that even though we have this incriminating testimony from

496
00:25:05.440 --> 00:25:08.599
<v Speaker 1>Carol Vandergriff and we have a lot of incriminating actions

497
00:25:08.599 --> 00:25:11.680
<v Speaker 1>by Bob himself, there are still no eyewitnesses or physical

498
00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:14.599
<v Speaker 1>evidence to prove he was there when Kay was killed.

499
00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:17.960
<v Speaker 2>And I think that it makes it more difficult when

500
00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:21.480
<v Speaker 2>it's somebody's partner and there's skin cells under the nails,

501
00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:24.720
<v Speaker 2>it would be very easy for Bob to use like

502
00:25:24.799 --> 00:25:27.119
<v Speaker 2>a rough sex defense, right, like, oh, you know, she

503
00:25:27.279 --> 00:25:30.279
<v Speaker 2>was scratching at me or whatever, not enough to leave

504
00:25:30.319 --> 00:25:32.720
<v Speaker 2>a mark, but enough to get skin cells under there.

505
00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:37.119
<v Speaker 2>So maybe it would be if by today's technology, I

506
00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:39.480
<v Speaker 2>think you'd be able to tell how much skin cells

507
00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:41.519
<v Speaker 2>were under there, if there was any blood or anything.

508
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:44.960
<v Speaker 2>But back then, if you're looking at even a few

509
00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:48.319
<v Speaker 2>years out from this into the nineties, you're not going

510
00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:51.960
<v Speaker 2>to have highly sophisticated technology. It's going to be pretty rudimentary.

511
00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:55.759
<v Speaker 2>So I would think he would be able to use

512
00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:59.559
<v Speaker 2>that excuse, being that they were partners, they spent time

513
00:25:59.640 --> 00:26:04.200
<v Speaker 2>physic together, and if they were together intimately, then it

514
00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:07.640
<v Speaker 2>is possible that skin cells would end up under the nails.

515
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:10.640
<v Speaker 2>So I can see him using that as a defense.

516
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:13.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I don't know how well you could use

517
00:26:13.680 --> 00:26:16.359
<v Speaker 2>that as a defense, but I think there is, Like

518
00:26:16.440 --> 00:26:19.279
<v Speaker 2>you said, with this case, there's so much reasonable doubt.

519
00:26:19.640 --> 00:26:21.319
<v Speaker 2>I still believe he did it, but there's a lot

520
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:22.119
<v Speaker 2>of reasonable bout.

521
00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:25.160
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, that's pretty much my mindset as well. And

522
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:27.319
<v Speaker 1>one detail that I forgot to mention is that Kay

523
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:30.200
<v Speaker 1>was not sexually assaulted and her purse was still left

524
00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:33.319
<v Speaker 1>in the truck, So robbery did not appear to be

525
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:35.680
<v Speaker 1>the motive for this crime, so they figured whoever killed her,

526
00:26:35.759 --> 00:26:38.519
<v Speaker 1>it sounded more like a personal killing. And the big

527
00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:41.079
<v Speaker 1>issue with like trying to find it on anyone else

528
00:26:41.160 --> 00:26:43.279
<v Speaker 1>besides Bob is that there didn't seem to be any

529
00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:46.279
<v Speaker 1>other suspects in Kay's personal life who would have had

530
00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:48.599
<v Speaker 1>a motive to harmer. So obviously you're going to look

531
00:26:48.599 --> 00:26:51.359
<v Speaker 1>at the husband who stands to inherit the fifty thousand

532
00:26:51.400 --> 00:26:52.680
<v Speaker 1>dollars life insurance.

533
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:56.480
<v Speaker 2>And I mean, I guess he could have said something like, oh, well,

534
00:26:56.519 --> 00:26:59.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, maybe it was a hitchhiker somebody who she

535
00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:02.599
<v Speaker 2>picked up and they were going to sexually assault her.

536
00:27:02.720 --> 00:27:08.039
<v Speaker 2>But because Kate fought back so valiantly, the hitchhiker ended

537
00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:10.519
<v Speaker 2>up killing her. She got away, and then they ended

538
00:27:10.599 --> 00:27:13.640
<v Speaker 2>up running her over because they weren't able to finish

539
00:27:13.640 --> 00:27:17.079
<v Speaker 2>what they'd started and they didn't want Kay reporting to

540
00:27:17.079 --> 00:27:20.440
<v Speaker 2>the police about the situation. I don't think that happened

541
00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:23.000
<v Speaker 2>at all, but I'm just saying that he could have

542
00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:27.000
<v Speaker 2>raised something like that as a possibility for why the

543
00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:30.240
<v Speaker 2>purse was still there, because somebody could panic if you've

544
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:33.599
<v Speaker 2>killed somebody and like that wasn't your initial intention, and

545
00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:35.680
<v Speaker 2>then you've gone and done that. It could just be

546
00:27:35.759 --> 00:27:39.160
<v Speaker 2>a panic sweeps over you in that moment and you

547
00:27:39.279 --> 00:27:43.079
<v Speaker 2>forget to you know, steal the money or do anything else.

548
00:27:44.119 --> 00:27:47.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So, like you said, even though that's not really plausible,

549
00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:50.160
<v Speaker 1>it's still reasonable doubts. So I can understand like why

550
00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:52.759
<v Speaker 1>the defense had a lot to work with at this trial.

551
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:57.240
<v Speaker 1>So the trial would have another number of unusual events

552
00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:00.720
<v Speaker 1>take place because this had been featured on Saw Mysteries.

553
00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:03.200
<v Speaker 1>When they were doing jury selection, they questioned all the

554
00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:06.359
<v Speaker 1>prospective jurors if they had seen the Unsolved Mystery segment.

555
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:09.359
<v Speaker 1>In about sixteen of them said yes, and some of

556
00:28:09.359 --> 00:28:11.759
<v Speaker 1>them said that they had formed their own personal opinion

557
00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:14.640
<v Speaker 1>about Bob's guilt or innocence just based on the segment.

558
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:17.359
<v Speaker 1>So of course they were strucken. They were not allowed

559
00:28:17.400 --> 00:28:19.720
<v Speaker 1>to go on the jury for fear that it would

560
00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:23.039
<v Speaker 1>taint the jury pool. But then they actually selected a

561
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:26.720
<v Speaker 1>guy and found out afterwards that he had actually participated

562
00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:29.880
<v Speaker 1>in the Unsolved Mysteries reenactments. He played one of the

563
00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:33.759
<v Speaker 1>actors who the motorists who found Kay's body beneath the

564
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:37.119
<v Speaker 1>pigup truck. Because back in the day, unsolved mysteries would

565
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:40.400
<v Speaker 1>travel to the locations where the crimes took place, and

566
00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:42.839
<v Speaker 1>they would usually not get professional actors. They would just

567
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:46.000
<v Speaker 1>get locals to play the people in the reenactments. So

568
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:49.359
<v Speaker 1>they found this local resident named Manuel Haney to play

569
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:52.000
<v Speaker 1>one of the motorists who discovered Kay's body. And of course,

570
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:54.400
<v Speaker 1>when the defense found out about it, they kind of

571
00:28:54.440 --> 00:28:57.359
<v Speaker 1>panicked a little bit, saying that this could taint his judgment.

572
00:28:57.480 --> 00:28:59.880
<v Speaker 1>But they questioned Haiti and he said that in spite

573
00:28:59.880 --> 00:29:01.759
<v Speaker 1>of the fact that I played an actor in this,

574
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:04.759
<v Speaker 1>I can remain unbiased and I will not let this

575
00:29:04.839 --> 00:29:06.880
<v Speaker 1>tate my opinion. And they allowed him to stay on

576
00:29:06.920 --> 00:29:10.440
<v Speaker 1>the jury. And I don't know if this influenced the verdict,

577
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:12.319
<v Speaker 1>but it's just another thing where it's like, yeah, you

578
00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:14.599
<v Speaker 1>should probably get rid of this because this gives them

579
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:17.319
<v Speaker 1>grounds to appeal if Bob has found guilty.

580
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:21.000
<v Speaker 2>Hello, Like, how did this not come up earlier? It

581
00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:24.480
<v Speaker 2>seems really odd that you wouldn't disclose this if you

582
00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:27.240
<v Speaker 2>were a juror early on and say like, hey, this

583
00:29:27.319 --> 00:29:30.680
<v Speaker 2>is a conflict of interest. You've got to wonder why

584
00:29:30.680 --> 00:29:33.920
<v Speaker 2>does this juror have a vested interest in going forward

585
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:37.319
<v Speaker 2>and hearing this case. Most people are all too happy

586
00:29:37.400 --> 00:29:40.319
<v Speaker 2>to be excused from jury duty, but you've got somebody

587
00:29:40.319 --> 00:29:42.559
<v Speaker 2>who has something that could get them excused, but they

588
00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:45.599
<v Speaker 2>don't reveal it, which is a little bit concerning to me.

589
00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:48.680
<v Speaker 2>And like you said, this can be raised at appeal

590
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:51.680
<v Speaker 2>at a later date and saying that there's bias here,

591
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:54.240
<v Speaker 2>and I think it's a good grounds for appeal. So

592
00:29:54.880 --> 00:29:56.920
<v Speaker 2>obviously I'm not a lawyer, but it sounds like good

593
00:29:57.079 --> 00:30:01.079
<v Speaker 2>grounds for appeal to me. And yeah, I can't believe

594
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:03.240
<v Speaker 2>that they didn't get rid of him at this point

595
00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:07.039
<v Speaker 2>because whether he can remain unbiased or not, it seems

596
00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:10.079
<v Speaker 2>like a clear conflict of interest, definitely.

597
00:30:10.160 --> 00:30:12.200
<v Speaker 1>And I'm having a feeling that the guy was probably

598
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:14.279
<v Speaker 1>really excited to be on the jury because this is

599
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:16.359
<v Speaker 1>a town that doesn't get a lot of attention, and

600
00:30:16.799 --> 00:30:19.200
<v Speaker 1>you had now a big TV show that was filming

601
00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:21.680
<v Speaker 1>reenactments there and you got to appear on TV and

602
00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:24.039
<v Speaker 1>a reenactment of a crime scene, and now you're going

603
00:30:24.119 --> 00:30:25.480
<v Speaker 1>to be on the jury for the trial. So that's

604
00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:27.839
<v Speaker 1>probably the most excitement this guy had ever seen in

605
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:30.200
<v Speaker 1>his life, which is why he was more than happy

606
00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:32.680
<v Speaker 1>to be on the jury and conveniently did not disclose

607
00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:34.640
<v Speaker 1>that he had been an actor on the show until

608
00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:39.079
<v Speaker 1>after he was selected, so once the trial began, the

609
00:30:39.119 --> 00:30:42.519
<v Speaker 1>prosecution pushed forward the theory that after returning home from

610
00:30:42.559 --> 00:30:45.599
<v Speaker 1>the country club, Bob immediately climbed into his jeep went

611
00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:49.319
<v Speaker 1>searching for Kay, eventually found her and an argument ensued,

612
00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:52.359
<v Speaker 1>which led to Bob going into a violent drunken rage

613
00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:55.160
<v Speaker 1>and running over Kay with the pickup truck. And then

614
00:30:55.200 --> 00:30:58.400
<v Speaker 1>he suddenly remembered the incident with Carol Vandergrift and William

615
00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:01.400
<v Speaker 1>Douglas Carter and realized that if I want to clear myself,

616
00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:04.319
<v Speaker 1>I need to fabricate an alibi. So he immediately raced

617
00:31:04.359 --> 00:31:06.519
<v Speaker 1>back home and made a phone call to his daughter

618
00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:09.480
<v Speaker 1>in order to get it on the record. And of course,

619
00:31:09.599 --> 00:31:12.680
<v Speaker 1>Carol Vandergriff testified on the stand about her own personal

620
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:16.839
<v Speaker 1>experience with her estranged ex husband, and she pretty much

621
00:31:16.880 --> 00:31:19.319
<v Speaker 1>confirmed that yes, I told Kay and Bob about this

622
00:31:19.480 --> 00:31:22.359
<v Speaker 1>shortly before Kay's death took place, so Bob would have

623
00:31:22.359 --> 00:31:25.359
<v Speaker 1>been well aware of it. But the defense tried to

624
00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:28.200
<v Speaker 1>push forward the theory that Kay was not actually murdered

625
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:30.960
<v Speaker 1>and was the victim of a freak accident because I

626
00:31:30.960 --> 00:31:34.000
<v Speaker 1>already talked about how she had a blood alcohol level

627
00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:36.440
<v Speaker 1>of zero point twenty seven, she had a history of

628
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:39.759
<v Speaker 1>being arrested for DUI, and a witness had nearly seen

629
00:31:39.799 --> 00:31:42.839
<v Speaker 1>her crashing her pickup truck into a swimming pool shortly

630
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:46.640
<v Speaker 1>before she was killed. So even though the transmission of A.

631
00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:50.079
<v Speaker 1>K's truck was found in park, an engineer was called

632
00:31:50.119 --> 00:31:52.640
<v Speaker 1>upon to testify, who claimed that he had examined the

633
00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:55.839
<v Speaker 1>truck and discovered that the gearshift lever for the automatic

634
00:31:55.960 --> 00:31:59.680
<v Speaker 1>transmission was faulty, and he said that the truck actually

635
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:04.279
<v Speaker 1>suffered from phenomenon called quote illusory park phenomenon, which could

636
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:07.119
<v Speaker 1>have caused it to accidentally shift into reverse from the

637
00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:10.559
<v Speaker 1>park position and back over K's body a second time

638
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:13.039
<v Speaker 1>while she was already on the ground. And I did

639
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:15.680
<v Speaker 1>a search on this, and there is like a history

640
00:32:15.720 --> 00:32:18.920
<v Speaker 1>of this phenomenon called illusory park phenomenon. There have been

641
00:32:19.000 --> 00:32:22.319
<v Speaker 1>lawsuits where people have believed that they put their vehicle

642
00:32:22.359 --> 00:32:25.119
<v Speaker 1>into park but found out that it was just an illusion.

643
00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:27.480
<v Speaker 1>It just appeared to be that way, and then when

644
00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:29.680
<v Speaker 1>they walked out of their vehicle, they wound up getting

645
00:32:29.759 --> 00:32:33.680
<v Speaker 1>run over because it was not actually in park, and apparently,

646
00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:36.839
<v Speaker 1>like some vehicles have been recalled in the past because

647
00:32:36.880 --> 00:32:39.599
<v Speaker 1>they had faulty transmissions, So they said it was not

648
00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:43.519
<v Speaker 1>completely impossible that the truck could have accidentally backed over

649
00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:46.839
<v Speaker 1>K because she thought it was mistakenly in park. But

650
00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:49.480
<v Speaker 1>the big hole in that theory is that why would

651
00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:52.000
<v Speaker 1>K stop her truck in the middle of that particular

652
00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:54.799
<v Speaker 1>road get out before she was run over? So that

653
00:32:54.920 --> 00:32:57.440
<v Speaker 1>was the problem here is that it was physically possible

654
00:32:57.480 --> 00:32:59.720
<v Speaker 1>for her to be run over, but why would she

655
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:01.279
<v Speaker 1>be in that position in the first place.

656
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:06.440
<v Speaker 2>Drunk people do some wild things. But the one part

657
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:08.720
<v Speaker 2>that I really can't get past is that there was

658
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:11.319
<v Speaker 2>a struggle in the vehicle and her nails are missing,

659
00:33:11.640 --> 00:33:14.480
<v Speaker 2>and illusory park phenomenon does not explain.

660
00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:17.039
<v Speaker 1>That it's true. Yeah, that was pretty much the big

661
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:19.480
<v Speaker 1>hole in their theory, and I almost think it would

662
00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:21.519
<v Speaker 1>have been a mistake to like focus on this angle.

663
00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:23.680
<v Speaker 1>I think the defense should have tried to push forward

664
00:33:23.720 --> 00:33:26.440
<v Speaker 1>the idea that Kay was murdered by someone else. But

665
00:33:26.519 --> 00:33:28.400
<v Speaker 1>the problem is is that they were unable to find

666
00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:31.400
<v Speaker 1>any other persons of interest or suspects, and it's like

667
00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:32.960
<v Speaker 1>one of the odds that K would go to this

668
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:35.839
<v Speaker 1>remote dead end road at like between like nine to

669
00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:38.440
<v Speaker 1>nine thirty at night and then just cross paths with

670
00:33:38.519 --> 00:33:40.799
<v Speaker 1>someone who was somehow lure out of her truck and

671
00:33:40.839 --> 00:33:43.319
<v Speaker 1>then run her over. So I think that's why they

672
00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:46.279
<v Speaker 1>decided to go with the accident theory. But it obviously

673
00:33:46.279 --> 00:33:49.720
<v Speaker 1>did not work because the jury only deliberated for two

674
00:33:49.720 --> 00:33:52.240
<v Speaker 1>and a half hours before they found Bob guilty of

675
00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:55.240
<v Speaker 1>secondary murder and he was sentenced to twenty years in prison.

676
00:33:56.200 --> 00:33:58.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm not really surprised that the jury came to

677
00:33:58.519 --> 00:34:01.240
<v Speaker 2>that conclusion because, like, like you said, this is a

678
00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:04.480
<v Speaker 2>real rollercoaster of a case, and I'm sure that they

679
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:07.359
<v Speaker 2>had some really interesting deliberations when it came down to

680
00:34:08.119 --> 00:34:12.079
<v Speaker 2>the logistics and Bob's state of mind. If he would

681
00:34:12.119 --> 00:34:14.480
<v Speaker 2>have been able to plan to do things like you know,

682
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:18.039
<v Speaker 2>calling his daughter at that time in order to give

683
00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:21.480
<v Speaker 2>himself an alibi, would you have the foresight to do

684
00:34:21.519 --> 00:34:23.679
<v Speaker 2>something like that when you're very, very drunk, and like,

685
00:34:23.719 --> 00:34:26.280
<v Speaker 2>what is the probability of being able to find Kay

686
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:28.559
<v Speaker 2>when you don't know where she is, you can't track her,

687
00:34:29.000 --> 00:34:31.599
<v Speaker 2>and you've got this really tight time frame. But when

688
00:34:31.639 --> 00:34:35.679
<v Speaker 2>you take everything into account, his weird interactions with law enforcement,

689
00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:40.800
<v Speaker 2>asking for that crazy letter that would absolve him of

690
00:34:40.840 --> 00:34:45.880
<v Speaker 2>all legal responsibility if this, if he did indeed kill her,

691
00:34:46.119 --> 00:34:48.760
<v Speaker 2>and wanting to burn down his place as part of

692
00:34:48.800 --> 00:34:51.920
<v Speaker 2>this agreement so that he could get a new house

693
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:55.360
<v Speaker 2>as part of a Christmas present. It's all so wild,

694
00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:57.559
<v Speaker 2>and the fact that the jury's hearing this, it's like,

695
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:02.119
<v Speaker 2>there is reasonable doubt. But I also can understand why

696
00:35:02.159 --> 00:35:04.840
<v Speaker 2>the jury was like, nah, and he did it.

697
00:35:05.960 --> 00:35:08.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, even though there was no physical evidence placing Bob

698
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:11.400
<v Speaker 1>at the scene, all this stuff about Bob's weird statements

699
00:35:11.480 --> 00:35:14.440
<v Speaker 1>during his interview with Agent Riley did get hurt at

700
00:35:14.440 --> 00:35:16.159
<v Speaker 1>the trial in front of the jury, So I'm sure

701
00:35:16.199 --> 00:35:19.119
<v Speaker 1>they heard that and they're like, yeah, he sounds so guilty.

702
00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:21.800
<v Speaker 1>And even though if they haven't really established how he

703
00:35:21.880 --> 00:35:24.119
<v Speaker 1>made it this location, the fact that he did all

704
00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:26.800
<v Speaker 1>these incriminating stuff is the reason that we believe he

705
00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:30.119
<v Speaker 1>did this and are comfortable finding him guilty. But obviously,

706
00:35:30.159 --> 00:35:31.920
<v Speaker 1>if that was the end of the story, we probably

707
00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:34.199
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't be talking about this on the episode. So there

708
00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:37.679
<v Speaker 1>is some more twists and turns to come, yeah, believe

709
00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:41.639
<v Speaker 1>it or not, So you might remember how Carol Vandergrift

710
00:35:41.760 --> 00:35:45.079
<v Speaker 1>that her testimony was pretty much the primary evidence against Bob.

711
00:35:45.199 --> 00:35:48.920
<v Speaker 1>But once Bob was convicted, his defense team filed an

712
00:35:48.920 --> 00:35:52.719
<v Speaker 1>appeal saying that her testimony unfairly prejudiced the jury, that

713
00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:55.400
<v Speaker 1>even though she told about this incident with her ex

714
00:35:55.480 --> 00:35:58.679
<v Speaker 1>husband to Kay and Bob, that doesn't necessarily prove that

715
00:35:58.760 --> 00:36:01.360
<v Speaker 1>Bob did the same thing, and that they were unable

716
00:36:01.400 --> 00:36:03.639
<v Speaker 1>to establish this, so they feel that there should be

717
00:36:03.679 --> 00:36:07.840
<v Speaker 1>grounds to overturn the conviction. Well, in early nineteen ninety two,

718
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:10.320
<v Speaker 1>about a year and a half after the trial took place,

719
00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:14.800
<v Speaker 1>William Douglas Carter's conviction for the attempted murder of Carol

720
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:18.960
<v Speaker 1>Vandergrift wound up getting overturned. Because this goes into kind

721
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:21.960
<v Speaker 1>of batshit crazy territory. Let me just look it up here.

722
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:25.679
<v Speaker 1>So William, when he was arrested for the attempted murder

723
00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:28.760
<v Speaker 1>of Carol, he wound up getting convicted of malicious wounding

724
00:36:28.840 --> 00:36:32.000
<v Speaker 1>and illegal use of a firearm and received a fourteen

725
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:35.000
<v Speaker 1>year prison sentence. But then his defense team peeled his

726
00:36:35.039 --> 00:36:40.000
<v Speaker 1>conviction and they wound up being contacted by a deputy

727
00:36:40.119 --> 00:36:43.199
<v Speaker 1>from the Loudun County Sheriff's office named Doug pop Up,

728
00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:46.519
<v Speaker 1>who claimed that shortly before Carol was shot, Carol had

729
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:50.360
<v Speaker 1>attempted to hire him as a private bodyguard in order

730
00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:52.440
<v Speaker 1>to watch over her house because she had just gone

731
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:55.519
<v Speaker 1>through a contentious divorce with William and she feared that

732
00:36:55.719 --> 00:36:58.920
<v Speaker 1>her life would be in danger, so she wanted Papa

733
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:02.119
<v Speaker 1>to guard the house, and she apparently made some incriminating

734
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:05.280
<v Speaker 1>statements saying that I'm so bitter against him that I

735
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:07.639
<v Speaker 1>would be willing to shoot myself and make it look

736
00:37:07.719 --> 00:37:10.119
<v Speaker 1>like he did it, and that even if I was dead,

737
00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:12.039
<v Speaker 1>I would take comfort in the fact that he would

738
00:37:12.039 --> 00:37:14.800
<v Speaker 1>get arrested for I murder and have his life ruined

739
00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:18.159
<v Speaker 1>and go to prison. Well, Papa found this pretty incriminating

740
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:21.800
<v Speaker 1>because William always maintained that he didn't do this, so

741
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:26.079
<v Speaker 1>she started wondering could have been possible that Carol actually

742
00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:29.280
<v Speaker 1>did shoot herself and attempted to frame her ex husband,

743
00:37:29.840 --> 00:37:32.719
<v Speaker 1>And before William's trial took place, Papa actually went to

744
00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:35.960
<v Speaker 1>the district attorney and went to his supervisor at the

745
00:37:35.960 --> 00:37:40.039
<v Speaker 1>Sheriff's office to share this information, but they conveniently ignored

746
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:43.039
<v Speaker 1>this and did not share these incriminating statements from Carol

747
00:37:43.400 --> 00:37:46.920
<v Speaker 1>at William's trial. And when the appeals court heard about this,

748
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:50.039
<v Speaker 1>they pretty much said that, well, I'm not necessarily saying

749
00:37:50.039 --> 00:37:52.679
<v Speaker 1>that William was innocent, but the fact that this statement

750
00:37:52.800 --> 00:37:55.639
<v Speaker 1>was not included at his trial and that the district

751
00:37:55.639 --> 00:37:58.840
<v Speaker 1>attorney in the sheriff's office deliberately withheld it means that

752
00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:01.079
<v Speaker 1>his civil rights were violin. So he says, I have

753
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:04.920
<v Speaker 1>no choice but to overturn William's conviction. And as you

754
00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:07.840
<v Speaker 1>can imagine, this decision would have a big bearing on

755
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:09.079
<v Speaker 1>Bob's appeal as well.

756
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:12.280
<v Speaker 2>Wow, yeah, I can imagine that that would have a

757
00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:15.239
<v Speaker 2>domino effect. And so what do you think? I don't

758
00:38:15.239 --> 00:38:18.320
<v Speaker 2>know enough details of that case, but do you think

759
00:38:18.440 --> 00:38:21.440
<v Speaker 2>that Carol was fabricating that and she did indeed shoot

760
00:38:21.480 --> 00:38:23.480
<v Speaker 2>herself or do you think that it was just like

761
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:26.719
<v Speaker 2>an offhanded comment that she made about how angry she

762
00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:29.920
<v Speaker 2>was at her ex and how she was be willing

763
00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:33.960
<v Speaker 2>to go to great lengths and somehow coincidentally that's what

764
00:38:34.119 --> 00:38:35.079
<v Speaker 2>he ended up doing.

765
00:38:36.280 --> 00:38:38.880
<v Speaker 1>I haven't done enough research to form one hundred percent

766
00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:41.920
<v Speaker 1>complete opinion. I do am inclined to believe that William

767
00:38:42.000 --> 00:38:45.239
<v Speaker 1>actually did this, because I do know that he had

768
00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:47.920
<v Speaker 1>a history of violence, and it was a very tumultuous divorce.

769
00:38:48.079 --> 00:38:50.239
<v Speaker 1>And when you look at the timeline, it does seem

770
00:38:50.280 --> 00:38:53.079
<v Speaker 1>plausible that he could have shot her in Virginia, driven

771
00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:55.320
<v Speaker 1>back to his form farm in New York, and made

772
00:38:55.360 --> 00:38:58.360
<v Speaker 1>those phone calls to establish an alibi, and that maybe

773
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:00.559
<v Speaker 1>she just made those off and comments. But it doesn't

774
00:39:00.599 --> 00:39:03.920
<v Speaker 1>necessarily mean that it happened. But when William went on

775
00:39:04.000 --> 00:39:06.559
<v Speaker 1>trial again, he got a retrial. He wound up being

776
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:09.400
<v Speaker 1>acquitted because once they had those statements in there, it

777
00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:11.920
<v Speaker 1>planted a lot of reasonable doubt in the jury's mind,

778
00:39:12.360 --> 00:39:15.199
<v Speaker 1>and so they found William not guilty. But I find

779
00:39:15.239 --> 00:39:18.079
<v Speaker 1>this interesting is that after William was released from prison,

780
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:21.360
<v Speaker 1>he filed a civil rights lawsuit in court and he

781
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:24.039
<v Speaker 1>wound up winning, but the jury decided to award him

782
00:39:24.039 --> 00:39:27.360
<v Speaker 1>an amount of one dollar, which I have never seen before.

783
00:39:27.400 --> 00:39:29.199
<v Speaker 1>And I kind of think that's a symbolic thing where

784
00:39:29.199 --> 00:39:32.519
<v Speaker 1>they said that, yes, technically your civil rights were violated,

785
00:39:32.599 --> 00:39:35.800
<v Speaker 1>Yes technically you received an unfair trial, but we still

786
00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:38.159
<v Speaker 1>believe that you were actually guilty of this crime. Hence

787
00:39:38.199 --> 00:39:40.840
<v Speaker 1>that's why we're only going to award you one dollar

788
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:41.760
<v Speaker 1>in compensation.

789
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:45.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it sounds like a symbolic verdict, like, technically, yes,

790
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:48.519
<v Speaker 2>you were wronged and your civil rights were violated, but

791
00:39:48.599 --> 00:39:50.840
<v Speaker 2>you're a horrible human, so we're only going to give

792
00:39:50.840 --> 00:39:51.360
<v Speaker 2>you a dollar.

793
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:54.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, pretty much, that's what it seems like to me.

794
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:56.559
<v Speaker 1>So I think it was just a lucky thing that

795
00:39:56.639 --> 00:39:59.199
<v Speaker 1>Carol made those statements, And who knows, if they had

796
00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:02.440
<v Speaker 1>introduced them into William's original trial, maybe they still would

797
00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:05.119
<v Speaker 1>have found him guilty. But because they withheld it, they

798
00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:09.199
<v Speaker 1>knew that he had got an unfair trial and violated

799
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:11.480
<v Speaker 1>his civil rights, so that's the reason he ultimately wound

800
00:40:11.559 --> 00:40:14.760
<v Speaker 1>up getting released. But as you can imagine, this played

801
00:40:14.800 --> 00:40:17.519
<v Speaker 1>like a big role on Bob Hall's appeal because they

802
00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:21.599
<v Speaker 1>said Carol Vandergriff's testimony against him was the primary evidence

803
00:40:21.639 --> 00:40:24.320
<v Speaker 1>at his own trial, and now we're finding new evidence

804
00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:27.719
<v Speaker 1>to suggest that maybe she shot herself and that attempted

805
00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:31.079
<v Speaker 1>to frame Rex's husband, so obviously she is no longer

806
00:40:31.159 --> 00:40:34.400
<v Speaker 1>a reliable witness. And the Virginia Court of Appeals agreed,

807
00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:39.000
<v Speaker 1>so they decided to overturn Bob's conviction and awarded him

808
00:40:39.039 --> 00:40:41.480
<v Speaker 1>a new trial. And this was less than two years

809
00:40:41.559 --> 00:40:44.679
<v Speaker 1>after he was convicted, so the case against Bob fell

810
00:40:44.719 --> 00:40:46.119
<v Speaker 1>apart very quickly.

811
00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:49.320
<v Speaker 2>It's crazy to me that, like Carol's testimony was one

812
00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:52.480
<v Speaker 2>of their main pieces of evidence. That seems like really

813
00:40:52.519 --> 00:40:54.840
<v Speaker 2>wild that you got somebody saying, hey, I shared this

814
00:40:54.920 --> 00:40:57.840
<v Speaker 2>information about what happened to me, and then he goes

815
00:40:57.880 --> 00:41:00.559
<v Speaker 2>and calls his daughter, and like that is actual evidence.

816
00:41:00.760 --> 00:41:03.400
<v Speaker 2>I think that, like, there's a lot of horrible things

817
00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:05.360
<v Speaker 2>about Bob and the way that he's acted that we

818
00:41:05.800 --> 00:41:08.840
<v Speaker 2>highlighted over and over again, but the fact that she's

819
00:41:08.920 --> 00:41:13.159
<v Speaker 2>their main witness and that this is the best evidence

820
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:15.320
<v Speaker 2>that you have says to me that you've got a

821
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:16.320
<v Speaker 2>pretty weak case.

822
00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:19.599
<v Speaker 1>That's pretty much. But the Virginia Court of Appeals thought,

823
00:41:19.719 --> 00:41:22.320
<v Speaker 1>like they actually said in the decision, we're not saying

824
00:41:22.360 --> 00:41:24.960
<v Speaker 1>that Bob is innocent. We still believe he had the

825
00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:28.800
<v Speaker 1>motive and opportunity to kill his wife. But because he

826
00:41:28.920 --> 00:41:33.440
<v Speaker 1>was convicted primarily on eyewitness testimony from someone who might

827
00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:37.000
<v Speaker 1>be completely unreliable, and this was the primary evidence and

828
00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:39.960
<v Speaker 1>it could have unfairly prejudiced the jury, we have no

829
00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:42.599
<v Speaker 1>choice but to overturn the conviction and give him a

830
00:41:42.639 --> 00:41:45.199
<v Speaker 1>new trial. And I think that would be pretty wild

831
00:41:45.280 --> 00:41:47.880
<v Speaker 1>if it turned out that Carol really did shoot herself

832
00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:50.360
<v Speaker 1>to frame Rex's husband, but it turned out that Bob

833
00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:53.079
<v Speaker 1>was still guilty. Because that doesn't counsel each other out.

834
00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:55.800
<v Speaker 1>It's possible that William could have been innocent and Bob

835
00:41:55.920 --> 00:41:58.360
<v Speaker 1>was guilty, and he just happened to be inspired by

836
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:02.199
<v Speaker 1>a crime where the suspect was wrongly convicted but was

837
00:42:02.239 --> 00:42:06.679
<v Speaker 1>not actually using the phone calls to establish an alibi. So, unfortunately,

838
00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:09.199
<v Speaker 1>this case would wind up being resolved with one of

839
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:12.360
<v Speaker 1>our least favorite things ever, and that's the Alford plea,

840
00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:17.280
<v Speaker 1>because unfortunately, without Carol's testimony, the state realized, we don't

841
00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:19.599
<v Speaker 1>really have a lot of evidence to take Bob to

842
00:42:19.639 --> 00:42:22.639
<v Speaker 1>trial again, and we're not entirely sure we can get

843
00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:26.199
<v Speaker 1>a conviction. So they decided to offer a Bobby deal

844
00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:28.719
<v Speaker 1>where his twenty year cents would be shortened to time

845
00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:31.880
<v Speaker 1>served and he would receive fifteen years probation if he

846
00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:34.960
<v Speaker 1>entered an Alford plea, where technically he would be plead

847
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:38.119
<v Speaker 1>guilty to Kay's murder, but he would still be maintaining

848
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:41.159
<v Speaker 1>his innocence. And in this particular case, I have the

849
00:42:41.199 --> 00:42:44.360
<v Speaker 1>mindset that I don't care if Bob is guilty or innocence.

850
00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:46.639
<v Speaker 1>Like if I was in Bob's shoes and I was

851
00:42:46.679 --> 00:42:49.360
<v Speaker 1>in innocent, I would take that deal because you're getting

852
00:42:49.360 --> 00:42:53.079
<v Speaker 1>fifteen years probation for murder after serving less than two years,

853
00:42:53.480 --> 00:42:56.239
<v Speaker 1>as opposed to serving twenty years. So that is a

854
00:42:56.280 --> 00:42:59.960
<v Speaker 1>pretty good deal. But unfortunately it's very unsatisfying for every

855
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:02.760
<v Speaker 1>everyone involved because if Bob is innocent, he doesn't have

856
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:05.519
<v Speaker 1>a chance to clear his name. But if he's guilty,

857
00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:08.719
<v Speaker 1>then that's really bad for a Kay's family because they

858
00:43:08.719 --> 00:43:10.800
<v Speaker 1>have only got to see this guy serve less than

859
00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:13.239
<v Speaker 1>two years and now he's going to be walked free

860
00:43:13.320 --> 00:43:16.239
<v Speaker 1>after receiving a sense of probation for murder.

861
00:43:16.760 --> 00:43:19.880
<v Speaker 2>That's literally a gift for Bob. And I think that

862
00:43:20.679 --> 00:43:23.480
<v Speaker 2>both sides made the right decision in the sense that

863
00:43:23.519 --> 00:43:26.599
<v Speaker 2>if they took Bob to trial again, they may end

864
00:43:26.679 --> 00:43:30.320
<v Speaker 2>up with a completely different result. If it's a situation

865
00:43:30.360 --> 00:43:32.920
<v Speaker 2>where they could end up with Bob having some type

866
00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:36.079
<v Speaker 2>of LEO recourse against them, this protects them from that

867
00:43:36.639 --> 00:43:39.079
<v Speaker 2>and it also allows them to say, hey, we won,

868
00:43:39.440 --> 00:43:43.519
<v Speaker 2>we convicted. He's taking this police So in the end,

869
00:43:43.639 --> 00:43:48.360
<v Speaker 2>even though it's not enough and it seems pretty clear

870
00:43:48.440 --> 00:43:50.679
<v Speaker 2>from the evidence that we have that Bob is the

871
00:43:50.719 --> 00:43:56.360
<v Speaker 2>guilty party. It just it feels unsatisfactory, right, Like it's

872
00:43:56.519 --> 00:44:00.840
<v Speaker 2>just like, Okay, you're taking responsibility, but not really. You're

873
00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:02.960
<v Speaker 2>not saying you're guilty. You're just saying that with the

874
00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:06.960
<v Speaker 2>evidence that is there, they would likely find you guilty again.

875
00:44:07.119 --> 00:44:09.960
<v Speaker 2>So you take an Alfred plea, which, like you said,

876
00:44:10.039 --> 00:44:12.800
<v Speaker 2>I hate an Alfred plea. I understand why they use them,

877
00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:15.840
<v Speaker 2>and I understand why people decide to take an Alfred plea,

878
00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:20.440
<v Speaker 2>but I can imagine for Kay's family, it's like he's

879
00:44:20.480 --> 00:44:23.679
<v Speaker 2>only done five years and that's all that he gets,

880
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:26.360
<v Speaker 2>and you don't get to go after him again later.

881
00:44:26.679 --> 00:44:31.320
<v Speaker 1>Great, and not five years, like less than two years, like.

882
00:44:30.679 --> 00:44:34.079
<v Speaker 2>Two years, my god, that's even worse time served. That

883
00:44:34.199 --> 00:44:36.440
<v Speaker 2>tells you how weak their case was. That tells you

884
00:44:36.480 --> 00:44:40.599
<v Speaker 2>they've got absolutely nothing. But at the time, the same token.

885
00:44:40.760 --> 00:44:43.960
<v Speaker 2>I can understand why Bob, guilty or innocent, would take

886
00:44:43.960 --> 00:44:47.960
<v Speaker 2>that Alfred plea because that guarantees your freedom. But again,

887
00:44:48.079 --> 00:44:49.239
<v Speaker 2>I don't think he's innocent.

888
00:44:50.199 --> 00:44:52.320
<v Speaker 1>That's what's so ironic about this case is that we

889
00:44:52.400 --> 00:44:55.559
<v Speaker 1>talked about that crazy like interrogation session he had with

890
00:44:55.599 --> 00:44:57.880
<v Speaker 1>Agent Riley where it sounded like he almost wanted to

891
00:44:57.880 --> 00:45:01.320
<v Speaker 1>confess to the crime as long as he didn't any consequences.

892
00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:04.480
<v Speaker 1>And this is almost the same thing because he's pleading

893
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:07.880
<v Speaker 1>guilty in court, but he's mostly receiving probation, so he

894
00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:10.480
<v Speaker 1>essentially had to serve less than two years in prison

895
00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:12.519
<v Speaker 1>for committing murder. And I almost think that if they

896
00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:15.599
<v Speaker 1>had offered him to that during the interrogation session, Bob

897
00:45:15.639 --> 00:45:18.840
<v Speaker 1>would have taken it. So it's technically his weird deal

898
00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:21.599
<v Speaker 1>wound up working for him in the long run, and

899
00:45:21.960 --> 00:45:24.599
<v Speaker 1>that's just what's so unfortunate about this case. But like

900
00:45:24.639 --> 00:45:27.280
<v Speaker 1>we mentioned, Alfred, please technically count as a win for

901
00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:30.400
<v Speaker 1>the prosecution, and if you take one, you can't sue

902
00:45:30.400 --> 00:45:32.440
<v Speaker 1>the court later on or sue the state for your

903
00:45:32.440 --> 00:45:35.920
<v Speaker 1>wrongful incarceration, Whereas if they had taken Bob to trial

904
00:45:36.039 --> 00:45:37.960
<v Speaker 1>and he was acquitted, he might have been able to

905
00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:41.119
<v Speaker 1>sue later on. So you can understand why both sides

906
00:45:41.159 --> 00:45:44.920
<v Speaker 1>agreed to this, but it's just a very unsatisfying resolution

907
00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:46.119
<v Speaker 1>for everyone involved.

908
00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:49.400
<v Speaker 2>I was literally thinking the exact same thing what you

909
00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:51.679
<v Speaker 2>just said, that Alfred plea was like made for Bob

910
00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:54.480
<v Speaker 2>because of his weird legal things that he was trying

911
00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:57.760
<v Speaker 2>to get with that letter, and like partially take responsibility.

912
00:45:58.039 --> 00:45:59.599
<v Speaker 2>This was made for him. He can say that he's

913
00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:02.440
<v Speaker 2>guilty without saying that he's guilty, and then he gets

914
00:46:02.440 --> 00:46:05.119
<v Speaker 2>to go on with his life. So Bob got his wish.

915
00:46:05.199 --> 00:46:07.840
<v Speaker 2>All he had to do was a couple years in

916
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:12.159
<v Speaker 2>prison and he's off scot free with fifteen years probation.

917
00:46:12.920 --> 00:46:15.800
<v Speaker 1>And I haven't heard anything about Bob. He was technically

918
00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:18.320
<v Speaker 1>released from prison in April nineteen ninety two and he

919
00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:20.280
<v Speaker 1>told the press that he was going to go live

920
00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:23.079
<v Speaker 1>with his daughter in Maryland. But I haven't heard one

921
00:46:23.079 --> 00:46:25.440
<v Speaker 1>thing about him since then. He pretty much just faded

922
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:27.400
<v Speaker 1>from the spotlight. I think one of the issues is

923
00:46:27.400 --> 00:46:29.719
<v Speaker 1>that Bob Hall is such a common name, so that

924
00:46:29.760 --> 00:46:32.440
<v Speaker 1>when you do a Google search, it's hard to determine

925
00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:34.599
<v Speaker 1>if anything happened to him. But I haven't heard of

926
00:46:34.639 --> 00:46:37.559
<v Speaker 1>him violating his probation, and I have no idea if

927
00:46:37.559 --> 00:46:39.400
<v Speaker 1>he's still alive. If he is, he would be in

928
00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:41.960
<v Speaker 1>his mid eighties by this point, so he pretty much

929
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:44.840
<v Speaker 1>just faded from the spotlight. And he obviously didn't spend

930
00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:47.960
<v Speaker 1>any time trying to find the real killer of his wife. So,

931
00:46:48.440 --> 00:46:50.559
<v Speaker 1>like you said, he technically got what he wanted, He

932
00:46:50.840 --> 00:46:52.880
<v Speaker 1>got off with a very light sense, and then was

933
00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:56.000
<v Speaker 1>able to move on with his life without any further consequences.

934
00:46:56.440 --> 00:46:59.360
<v Speaker 2>I really feel for Kay's family here. I can't imagine

935
00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:01.880
<v Speaker 2>what you would fin knowing that this man is out

936
00:47:02.199 --> 00:47:05.440
<v Speaker 2>and there's a very strong likelihood that he's responsible for

937
00:47:05.480 --> 00:47:08.480
<v Speaker 2>the death of your daughter in a very violent way.

938
00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:11.320
<v Speaker 2>To think that she was run over, there was a

939
00:47:11.360 --> 00:47:13.840
<v Speaker 2>struggle in the vehicle and she was run over like

940
00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:17.639
<v Speaker 2>that is so horrific. And then he's walking free, He's

941
00:47:17.679 --> 00:47:19.960
<v Speaker 2>getting to go live his life with his new partner.

942
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:21.280
<v Speaker 2>It's really gross.

943
00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:24.400
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure there's one case that has popped into your

944
00:47:24.440 --> 00:47:27.440
<v Speaker 1>mind will be discussing this, and that's the staircase murder

945
00:47:27.440 --> 00:47:31.280
<v Speaker 1>with Yes Peterson. Yes because it had the same resolution

946
00:47:31.360 --> 00:47:34.599
<v Speaker 1>where Michael Peterson had his conviction overturn not because he

947
00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:37.760
<v Speaker 1>was proven innocent, but because one of the experts who

948
00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:40.679
<v Speaker 1>testified at his trial turned out to be very unethical

949
00:47:40.760 --> 00:47:43.159
<v Speaker 1>and gave a lot of bad testimony which led to

950
00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:46.000
<v Speaker 1>wrongful convictions. So they said they had no choice but

951
00:47:46.119 --> 00:47:48.519
<v Speaker 1>to overturn his conviction and give him a new trial.

952
00:47:48.599 --> 00:47:51.599
<v Speaker 1>But he ultimately decided on an Alfred plea so he

953
00:47:51.639 --> 00:47:53.519
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't have to go back to trial again and go

954
00:47:53.599 --> 00:47:56.440
<v Speaker 1>to prison, and then went on to live the rest

955
00:47:56.440 --> 00:47:59.119
<v Speaker 1>of his life and is still alive today. And there's

956
00:47:59.119 --> 00:48:01.760
<v Speaker 1>still a lot of mystery this case. I've always been

957
00:48:01.800 --> 00:48:04.960
<v Speaker 1>inclined to believe that Michael Peterson was guilty, but the

958
00:48:04.960 --> 00:48:07.880
<v Speaker 1>big unanswered question is how did he do it? Because

959
00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:11.159
<v Speaker 1>they were never able to conclusively establish a manner of death.

960
00:48:11.239 --> 00:48:13.840
<v Speaker 1>I know some people have talked about a theory about

961
00:48:14.000 --> 00:48:16.679
<v Speaker 1>her being killed by an owl which caused her to

962
00:48:16.719 --> 00:48:19.280
<v Speaker 1>like get clawed and bang her head or something like that,

963
00:48:19.320 --> 00:48:21.599
<v Speaker 1>but I personally don't believe it. But it's the same

964
00:48:21.639 --> 00:48:25.119
<v Speaker 1>antality with this particular case where you can believe Bob's guilty,

965
00:48:25.159 --> 00:48:27.960
<v Speaker 1>but there's still a lot of unanswered questions about how

966
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:30.079
<v Speaker 1>he pulled it off. How did he know that Kay

967
00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:33.320
<v Speaker 1>would be at this particular spot which was sixteen miles

968
00:48:33.320 --> 00:48:35.760
<v Speaker 1>from his home, in two miles in the opposite direction

969
00:48:35.880 --> 00:48:38.840
<v Speaker 1>of the club they were, and why Kay traveled to

970
00:48:38.880 --> 00:48:41.280
<v Speaker 1>this particular spot where she was killed, and how Bob

971
00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:43.519
<v Speaker 1>would have known she would be there. So that's a

972
00:48:43.559 --> 00:48:46.119
<v Speaker 1>frustrating thing about an alpha. Please you can close the case,

973
00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:48.519
<v Speaker 1>everyone can remain silent, but you will never know the

974
00:48:48.519 --> 00:48:49.800
<v Speaker 1>full truth about what happened.

975
00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:53.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's infuriating, and I tend to believe that Michael

976
00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:56.280
<v Speaker 2>Peterson is responsible, but I don't lean as heavily as

977
00:48:56.320 --> 00:48:59.079
<v Speaker 2>I do with Bob, Whereas with Michael Peterson, I'm like

978
00:48:59.320 --> 00:49:03.679
<v Speaker 2>sixty percent Michael Peterson forty percent owl. But I do

979
00:49:03.760 --> 00:49:06.239
<v Speaker 2>think there's a possibility that he didn't do it, and

980
00:49:06.280 --> 00:49:09.480
<v Speaker 2>that those pin hairs from the owl or pin feathers

981
00:49:09.559 --> 00:49:12.639
<v Speaker 2>or whatever that were found on Kathleen there is some

982
00:49:12.679 --> 00:49:15.800
<v Speaker 2>significance to that because it seems to be the greatest

983
00:49:15.800 --> 00:49:19.760
<v Speaker 2>amount of evidence. Everything against Michael Peterson kind of made

984
00:49:19.800 --> 00:49:22.679
<v Speaker 2>me scratch my head. But with Bob, it's the way

985
00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:25.320
<v Speaker 2>that Bob acted in interviews, the things that he said,

986
00:49:25.880 --> 00:49:28.719
<v Speaker 2>that's what really pushed me over the edge. Whereas logistically

987
00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:32.559
<v Speaker 2>I thought there's a strong possibility he didn't do it,

988
00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:35.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm like fifty to fifty with the logistics and trying

989
00:49:35.039 --> 00:49:38.079
<v Speaker 2>to do mental gymnastics for another theory that fits. But

990
00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:40.960
<v Speaker 2>the way that he acted in the aftermath, I'm pretty

991
00:49:41.079 --> 00:49:44.480
<v Speaker 2>secure in my belief that Bob was indeed responsible for

992
00:49:44.519 --> 00:49:45.199
<v Speaker 2>the murder of k.

993
00:49:46.239 --> 00:49:48.000
<v Speaker 1>I do agree, and if he did do it, it

994
00:49:48.039 --> 00:49:50.280
<v Speaker 1>was probably a thing where he got Scott lucky that

995
00:49:50.360 --> 00:49:52.719
<v Speaker 1>maybe he just decided, I need to go out searching

996
00:49:52.760 --> 00:49:54.920
<v Speaker 1>for K. He drove around for a while and just

997
00:49:54.960 --> 00:49:57.960
<v Speaker 1>got lucky that he happened to stumble across K at

998
00:49:57.960 --> 00:50:00.639
<v Speaker 1>this exact spot a very short time later, and then

999
00:50:00.719 --> 00:50:02.679
<v Speaker 1>was able to race home to make the phone call

1000
00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:05.079
<v Speaker 1>and narrow the timeline so that there was still some

1001
00:50:05.239 --> 00:50:08.119
<v Speaker 1>reasonable doubt about how he could have done it. Theoretically,

1002
00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:11.320
<v Speaker 1>if Bob was innocent, I don't believe that Kay's death

1003
00:50:11.400 --> 00:50:13.519
<v Speaker 1>was an accident because of the signs of struggle in

1004
00:50:13.559 --> 00:50:16.280
<v Speaker 1>the cab, and I think the only other theory of

1005
00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:19.280
<v Speaker 1>someone else killing her which would make sense is maybe

1006
00:50:19.320 --> 00:50:21.679
<v Speaker 1>if she was having an affair with someone and never

1007
00:50:21.719 --> 00:50:24.519
<v Speaker 1>told anyone about it, and maybe they lived in that

1008
00:50:24.559 --> 00:50:27.480
<v Speaker 1>particular area near Bluff Point Rose and she went to

1009
00:50:27.559 --> 00:50:30.280
<v Speaker 1>visit this person, maybe they got into an argument and

1010
00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:33.079
<v Speaker 1>that person ran her down. But if that was the case,

1011
00:50:33.119 --> 00:50:36.440
<v Speaker 1>she obviously never told anyone about this affair, since nothing

1012
00:50:36.440 --> 00:50:39.159
<v Speaker 1>about this came out. But the reason I still have

1013
00:50:39.239 --> 00:50:41.079
<v Speaker 1>a teeny bit of doubt is that I just don't

1014
00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:43.400
<v Speaker 1>know what Kay was doing when she left the club

1015
00:50:43.440 --> 00:50:45.960
<v Speaker 1>at eight and was driving into the pool nearly at

1016
00:50:45.960 --> 00:50:48.199
<v Speaker 1>eight fifty and then was killed a short time later,

1017
00:50:48.320 --> 00:50:51.079
<v Speaker 1>Like why was she driving around in this particular area.

1018
00:50:51.159 --> 00:50:53.519
<v Speaker 1>So that's why I think there's a minute possibility that

1019
00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:56.119
<v Speaker 1>maybe she went to see someone, maybe a secret lover,

1020
00:50:56.239 --> 00:50:58.800
<v Speaker 1>and that person wound up killing her. And if there

1021
00:50:58.840 --> 00:51:01.079
<v Speaker 1>was nothing else against Bob, then maybe I'd lean more

1022
00:51:01.079 --> 00:51:03.159
<v Speaker 1>towards that theory. But the way he kept lying to

1023
00:51:03.199 --> 00:51:05.920
<v Speaker 1>police and said all those suspicious statements during the interview

1024
00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:08.119
<v Speaker 1>is the main reason that I still think that's the

1025
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:10.199
<v Speaker 1>most logical explanation that he did it.

1026
00:51:10.760 --> 00:51:13.159
<v Speaker 2>I'm with you, like twenty percent of me is like, Okay,

1027
00:51:13.239 --> 00:51:15.599
<v Speaker 2>there's a possibility that it could have been somebody else,

1028
00:51:15.719 --> 00:51:18.719
<v Speaker 2>that it's just some suspect that we aren't aware of,

1029
00:51:18.960 --> 00:51:21.599
<v Speaker 2>Like you said, somebody she's having an affair with a hitchhiker,

1030
00:51:21.679 --> 00:51:25.440
<v Speaker 2>any possibility that it could be an outside person, obviously

1031
00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:28.599
<v Speaker 2>not somebody who's trying to rob her. But I'm still

1032
00:51:28.679 --> 00:51:31.760
<v Speaker 2>eighty percent there that like, Bob, you're the guy. You

1033
00:51:31.840 --> 00:51:36.159
<v Speaker 2>did this. But because of all of these strange elements

1034
00:51:36.159 --> 00:51:38.519
<v Speaker 2>of this case, I could never be like one hundred percent,

1035
00:51:38.719 --> 00:51:41.119
<v Speaker 2>well not that we're ever one hundred percent in any case,

1036
00:51:41.239 --> 00:51:43.800
<v Speaker 2>but you know, ninety nine point nine percent.

1037
00:51:44.440 --> 00:51:46.719
<v Speaker 1>Yes, Like this is where reasonable doubt comes in, because

1038
00:51:46.760 --> 00:51:48.280
<v Speaker 1>in spite of what I said, I think that if

1039
00:51:48.320 --> 00:51:49.920
<v Speaker 1>I was on the jury for this, I would have

1040
00:51:50.000 --> 00:51:52.480
<v Speaker 1>hard time convicting Bob because I can't say with one

1041
00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:55.239
<v Speaker 1>hundred percent certainty that I believe he did it. And

1042
00:51:55.320 --> 00:51:57.360
<v Speaker 1>so that really makes me think that they were a

1043
00:51:57.400 --> 00:51:59.920
<v Speaker 1>little premature when they decided to charge him based on

1044
00:52:00.079 --> 00:52:03.280
<v Speaker 1>Carol Vandergriff's testimony, and that maybe they should have waited

1045
00:52:03.320 --> 00:52:05.639
<v Speaker 1>a longer time, maybe when there were advances in forensic

1046
00:52:05.719 --> 00:52:07.519
<v Speaker 1>like maybe many years from them, they would have been

1047
00:52:07.519 --> 00:52:10.280
<v Speaker 1>able to do DNA testing on her nails or something

1048
00:52:10.320 --> 00:52:13.679
<v Speaker 1>and find more conclusive physical evidence placing Bob at the scene.

1049
00:52:13.719 --> 00:52:16.639
<v Speaker 1>But because they jumped the gun and then they convicted him,

1050
00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:20.000
<v Speaker 1>like in unfair circumstances, they got to the point where

1051
00:52:20.039 --> 00:52:21.639
<v Speaker 1>all they could do was offer an al Ford plea

1052
00:52:21.719 --> 00:52:24.159
<v Speaker 1>and let them walk free, and no one was satisfied

1053
00:52:24.159 --> 00:52:27.280
<v Speaker 1>with the outcome. So any further thoughts on the death

1054
00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:27.880
<v Speaker 1>of k Hall.

1055
00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:32.280
<v Speaker 2>No, this was a really interesting case. I truly feel

1056
00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:34.159
<v Speaker 2>like you took me on a roller coaster ride.

1057
00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:36.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, this was a fun one to do, just seeing

1058
00:52:36.599 --> 00:52:38.760
<v Speaker 1>like your facial expressions with some of the stuff I

1059
00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:41.639
<v Speaker 1>told you, and seeing you gradually change your mind having

1060
00:52:41.639 --> 00:52:43.679
<v Speaker 1>reasonable doubt about Bob, but then once you heard the

1061
00:52:43.719 --> 00:52:45.920
<v Speaker 1>details of his interview you were like, yeah, I'm pretty

1062
00:52:45.920 --> 00:52:48.199
<v Speaker 1>sure he did it. But that's what's fun about feeding

1063
00:52:48.239 --> 00:52:50.400
<v Speaker 1>you details of these cases that you don't have any

1064
00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:51.400
<v Speaker 1>knowledge of them.

1065
00:52:51.599 --> 00:52:53.559
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, Like I had no idea of this case.

1066
00:52:53.599 --> 00:52:55.559
<v Speaker 2>I'd heard nothing of it at the beginning. I never

1067
00:52:55.599 --> 00:52:57.559
<v Speaker 2>really know if I have heard of it, and once

1068
00:52:57.599 --> 00:53:00.920
<v Speaker 2>you tell me details, but this one I was completely blind.

1069
00:53:01.039 --> 00:53:03.559
<v Speaker 2>So it's always interesting when you don't know any of

1070
00:53:03.599 --> 00:53:06.199
<v Speaker 2>the details. And with a case such as this to

1071
00:53:06.280 --> 00:53:10.280
<v Speaker 2>have such crazy details, I can't think of any other

1072
00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:13.360
<v Speaker 2>case except for the staircase that would rival it with

1073
00:53:13.480 --> 00:53:17.199
<v Speaker 2>the ups and downs and the reasonable doubt, the strange evidence,

1074
00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:20.760
<v Speaker 2>the logistics of it all. So thank you for sharing

1075
00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:25.639
<v Speaker 2>the details of the murder of Unexplained death slash murder

1076
00:53:25.719 --> 00:53:26.519
<v Speaker 2>of k Hall.

1077
00:53:27.400 --> 00:53:29.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, my pleasure. This was a great one to discuss.

1078
00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:32.719
<v Speaker 1>So that about brings an end to our series on

1079
00:53:32.800 --> 00:53:34.719
<v Speaker 1>the death of k Hall. Thank you so much for

1080
00:53:34.800 --> 00:53:37.119
<v Speaker 1>joining us, and we'll be back again next week talking

1081
00:53:37.119 --> 00:53:37.960
<v Speaker 1>about another case.

1082
00:53:39.480 --> 00:53:40.960
<v Speaker 2>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

1083
00:53:41.000 --> 00:53:42.480
<v Speaker 2>about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?

1084
00:53:43.239 --> 00:53:45.559
<v Speaker 1>Yes, The Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

1085
00:53:45.639 --> 00:53:49.400
<v Speaker 1>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

1086
00:53:49.480 --> 00:53:52.840
<v Speaker 1>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

1087
00:53:52.880 --> 00:53:55.719
<v Speaker 1>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

1088
00:53:55.760 --> 00:53:58.360
<v Speaker 1>with us on Patreon. If you join our five dollars

1089
00:53:58.360 --> 00:54:02.440
<v Speaker 1>tier tier two, we also offer monthly bonus episodes in

1090
00:54:02.480 --> 00:54:05.639
<v Speaker 1>which I talk about cases which are not featured on

1091
00:54:05.679 --> 00:54:08.480
<v Speaker 1>the Trail Went Cold's original feed, so they're exclusive to

1092
00:54:08.519 --> 00:54:11.599
<v Speaker 1>Patreon and if you join our highest tier tier three,

1093
00:54:11.719 --> 00:54:14.440
<v Speaker 1>the ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer

1094
00:54:14.679 --> 00:54:19.119
<v Speaker 1>is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsaved Mysteries,

1095
00:54:19.360 --> 00:54:22.360
<v Speaker 1>where you can download an audio file and then boot

1096
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:25.639
<v Speaker 1>up the original Unsoalved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

1097
00:54:25.639 --> 00:54:29.039
<v Speaker 1>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

1098
00:54:29.079 --> 00:54:32.199
<v Speaker 1>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

1099
00:54:32.199 --> 00:54:35.639
<v Speaker 1>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

1100
00:54:35.679 --> 00:54:38.519
<v Speaker 1>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

1101
00:54:38.559 --> 00:54:41.320
<v Speaker 1>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

1102
00:54:41.360 --> 00:54:44.079
<v Speaker 1>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

1103
00:54:44.079 --> 00:54:47.119
<v Speaker 1>ass remarks about jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

1104
00:54:47.199 --> 00:54:47.920
<v Speaker 1>Tier three.

1105
00:54:48.119 --> 00:54:49.639
<v Speaker 2>So I want to let you know a little bit

1106
00:54:49.639 --> 00:54:52.599
<v Speaker 2>about the jewels and nashty patreons. So there's early ad

1107
00:54:52.639 --> 00:54:55.519
<v Speaker 2>free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our

1108
00:54:55.559 --> 00:54:58.360
<v Speaker 2>Path Went Chili mini's which are always over an hour,

1109
00:54:58.480 --> 00:55:00.599
<v Speaker 2>so they're not very many, but they're just too short

1110
00:55:00.639 --> 00:55:03.639
<v Speaker 2>to turn into a series and we're really enjoying doing those,

1111
00:55:03.719 --> 00:55:06.280
<v Speaker 2>so we hope you'll check out those patreons will link

1112
00:55:06.320 --> 00:55:07.360
<v Speaker 2>them in the show notes.

1113
00:55:07.880 --> 00:55:09.800
<v Speaker 1>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

1114
00:55:09.920 --> 00:55:12.280
<v Speaker 1>any chance you have to share us on social media

1115
00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:14.639
<v Speaker 1>with a friend or to rate and review is greatly

1116
00:55:14.679 --> 00:55:17.440
<v Speaker 1>appreciate it. You can email us at The Pathwentchili at

1117
00:55:17.480 --> 00:55:20.320
<v Speaker 1>gmail dot com. You can reach us on Twitter at

1118
00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:23.079
<v Speaker 1>the Pathwink. So until next time, be sure to bundle

1119
00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:26.639
<v Speaker 1>up because cold trails and Chili pass call for warm clothing.

1120
00:55:26.840 --> 00:55:30.000
<v Speaker 2>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy