1 00:00:16,519 --> 00:00:19,399 Speaker 1: And we're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. 2 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,839 I'm Matt Kittle, Senior Elections correspondent at the Federalist, and 3 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:27,839 your experienced Shirpa on today's quest for Knowledge. As always, 4 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:31,320 you can email the show at radio at the Federalist 5 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:36,840 dot com, follow us on x at FDRLST. Make sure 6 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:40,119 to subscribe wherever you download your podcast, and of course 7 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,679 to the premium version of our website as well. Our 8 00:00:43,679 --> 00:00:48,280 guest today is Federalist Senior Editor John Daniel Davidson, author 9 00:00:48,359 --> 00:00:53,320 of the alarming and profound new book Pagan America, The 10 00:00:53,399 --> 00:00:58,640 Decline of Christianity and the Dark Age to Come. Welcome, 11 00:00:59,479 --> 00:01:02,439 my friend. An excellent job on the book. I know 12 00:01:02,479 --> 00:01:07,359 it's going well for you. It's an important book, and 13 00:01:07,799 --> 00:01:11,359 it is not something that you were going to you 14 00:01:11,719 --> 00:01:14,680 readily admit, it's not something you're going to read and say, 15 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,359 forget your troubles, come on, get happy. 16 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 2: No, it's not that kind of a book. Part of 17 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,920 my motivation for writing the book was to help people 18 00:01:25,359 --> 00:01:29,760 wrap their minds around what's happening and accept it. And 19 00:01:29,799 --> 00:01:33,280 I actually find that, you know, when you can look 20 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:40,159 at something clear eyed and honestly and admit it. There's 21 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,439 a kind of kind of a sigh of relief that 22 00:01:43,519 --> 00:01:47,799 you can let out and say, Okay, we are entering 23 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,079 into a post Christian age in the West. That's happening. 24 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,319 It was happening before any of us were born. It's 25 00:01:54,319 --> 00:01:58,599 a world that we inherited and we're living through this 26 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,280 epochal change. And what does it mean for the West 27 00:02:02,319 --> 00:02:05,319 to become post Christian. The argument of the book is 28 00:02:05,319 --> 00:02:08,960 that it means the West is going to revert to 29 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,960 a form of paganism and what that means for America. 30 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,240 The book is called Pagan America, and I'm mostly concerned 31 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:22,280 with America is an end to our constitutional republic because 32 00:02:22,319 --> 00:02:27,360 you cannot have a constitutional republic of self governing citizens 33 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,800 in a post Christian society, in a non Christian society, 34 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,680 and that's the kind of society that we're fast becoming. 35 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,639 So on the one hand, it seems doom and gloom. 36 00:02:38,759 --> 00:02:40,719 The cover of the book has a burning church on it, 37 00:02:40,759 --> 00:02:45,080 after all that I designed the cover. But on the 38 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:49,000 one hand, it is meant to be alarming because the 39 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,960 idea is to sort of wake people up. On the 40 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,879 other hand, I find there's a tremendous relief in being 41 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:59,080 able to be honest about our situation, because only then 42 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,759 can you kind of be clear eyed and clear thinking 43 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,039 about what we should do now and how maybe we 44 00:03:06,039 --> 00:03:09,560 should change our priorities and change our way of life 45 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,560 in light of the reality and prepared. 46 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, you mentioned that it sounds a lot 47 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:19,360 like and I think it's meant to be that way. 48 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:23,240 You know. The first step to healing, or at least 49 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,599 the first step to preparation, as we talked about, is 50 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,439 to know that you have the problem. To acknowledge that 51 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,319 you have the problem. The problem is all around you. 52 00:03:33,879 --> 00:03:38,639 The country is literally burning down around you in the 53 00:03:38,759 --> 00:03:44,360 name of a war on faith and particularly Judeo Christian 54 00:03:44,479 --> 00:03:48,280 values that founded this country. And it's all very spell 55 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,520 down in your book. I mean, you take it from, 56 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,000 you know, the lens of what is happening today. But 57 00:03:55,319 --> 00:03:59,639 this didn't happen in the last since Donald Trump was 58 00:03:59,639 --> 00:04:03,280 elected in two This is the years and years and 59 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:04,080 years in the making. 60 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's it's decades in the making. At least, 61 00:04:07,439 --> 00:04:12,719 it's really centuries in the making. But yeah, there's a 62 00:04:12,759 --> 00:04:16,839 sense in which for a long time, conservatives in the 63 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,680 United States and Christians in the United States have been 64 00:04:19,759 --> 00:04:25,680 in a kind of fog, kind of delusional fog about 65 00:04:26,079 --> 00:04:29,680 what our situation is and what the remedy is to 66 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,279 our situation. And I am very clear in the book 67 00:04:33,319 --> 00:04:37,240 as well that Donald Trump is not going to save us. Right, 68 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,600 a Republican majority in the House is not going to 69 00:04:40,639 --> 00:04:44,319 save us. A five or six person majority on the 70 00:04:44,319 --> 00:04:46,920 Supreme Court even is not going to save us. That 71 00:04:47,319 --> 00:04:51,399 the political world is not going to be the solution 72 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,720 to the problem, because the problem is not a political problem. 73 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,720 It's a religious problem. It's a problem of a loss 74 00:04:57,759 --> 00:05:02,319 of faith. Right, all nations, including ours, are built on 75 00:05:02,439 --> 00:05:06,600 theological claims. And part of the premise of my argument 76 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,079 that I lay out in the second chapter is that 77 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:19,240 America isn't just a agnostic proposition of merely propositional country. 78 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,079 The proposition at the heart of the American experiment that 79 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:26,519 all men are created equal is Christianity. It is Christianity 80 00:05:26,519 --> 00:05:29,160 and all that comes with it. So to the extent 81 00:05:29,199 --> 00:05:31,759 that we are a propositional nation, what we are proposing 82 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,639 is the Christian faith as the organizing principle for our 83 00:05:36,639 --> 00:05:40,759 civic and national life together. So if you discard Christianity, 84 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:46,920 you are going to discard the substance and the source 85 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:51,480 of our claims about how we should order society on 86 00:05:51,519 --> 00:05:54,920 what basis right. The basis of our society is the 87 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,920 doctrine of Imago Day that all men are created equal 88 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,480 in the eyes of God. Therefore they are equal with 89 00:06:00,519 --> 00:06:04,480 respect to the law, and their consent is required for 90 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,000 a just government. Adjust government rules by the consent of 91 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,680 the government. These are Christian ideas, their Christian claims, their 92 00:06:11,759 --> 00:06:14,680 theological claims, and we lose sight of that, and we 93 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:19,839 think that the solution is somehow political because the problem 94 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,560 is just is just merely political, when the problem is 95 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,879 that we have lost our faith and without a people 96 00:06:28,399 --> 00:06:33,000 who are predominantly Christian in their religious practices, in their 97 00:06:33,079 --> 00:06:37,000 daily and family lives. Without that kind of a people, 98 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,720 you can't have the kind of republic that our founders 99 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:42,879 laid out for us and gave to us. And that 100 00:06:43,079 --> 00:06:45,639 is really the starting point for the book. Say, this 101 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,360 is what our country was set up as, this is 102 00:06:49,399 --> 00:06:51,720 the kind of people our founders said we had to 103 00:06:51,759 --> 00:06:54,639 be to keep it. We are no longer that kind 104 00:06:54,639 --> 00:06:57,720 of a people. Therefore, we are no longer going to 105 00:06:57,759 --> 00:07:01,839 be what we have been for most of our history history. 106 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:06,639 Speaker 1: The book reminds us how important that is, the notion 107 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:10,439 that for those who don't remember history are doomed to 108 00:07:10,519 --> 00:07:14,879 repeat it America, and we talk about this often, and 109 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:20,759 we've talked about this to an extensive degree of late 110 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:26,240 about you know, the famous empires of the world collapsing, 111 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:31,800 But the famous empires of the world collapsed from within, 112 00:07:33,279 --> 00:07:40,000 and people failed to get that point. We became an empire, 113 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,800 We became that city, that shining city on the hill. 114 00:07:43,839 --> 00:07:48,079 We became that citadel for values based on how we 115 00:07:48,079 --> 00:07:52,439 were founded, that Christian faith, all of those ideas that 116 00:07:52,759 --> 00:07:58,120 you expressed. And is this more of history repeating itself 117 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:02,399 once again that once you the myriad examples of once 118 00:08:02,439 --> 00:08:06,680 you turn your back on faith, once you turn your 119 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:11,720 back on family and the foundational values, there is a 120 00:08:11,759 --> 00:08:12,720 reckoning for that. 121 00:08:13,839 --> 00:08:19,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, there certainly is. And this was to a large extent, 122 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,800 this was the theme and the purpose of Saint Augustine's 123 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,519 City of God. He was writing at a time when 124 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:32,200 the Roman Empire really was beginning it's collapse and a 125 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:36,000 lot of the pagan Romans were blaming the Christians for 126 00:08:36,159 --> 00:08:42,159 Rome's troubles, and Saint Augustine wrote what he wrote in 127 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,440 that book, and he put forth an argument essentially, we 128 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:48,200 won't go deep into a city of God right now. 129 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,000 But he was sort of clapping back at that idea 130 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,799 and saying, look, it's not the Christians who are the 131 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,639 cause of Rome's problems. Rome's problems began before the Christians 132 00:08:59,639 --> 00:09:05,200 came on long and they are reaping the fruits of 133 00:09:05,279 --> 00:09:09,519 the seeds that they have sown. And the decrepitude and 134 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:15,399 the corruption and the decline of the Roman Empire are 135 00:09:15,879 --> 00:09:20,480 something that has its roots in the paganism of the 136 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,120 Roman Empire, not in the Christianity, which at that time 137 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:29,039 was still relatively new in the life of Rome. So 138 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,399 but to you answer your question, yes, I think it's 139 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,559 long been understood. It was understood by our founding fathers. 140 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,639 It was understood by Abraham Lincoln, who famously said all 141 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:40,919 the armies of Europe could not set a track upon 142 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,840 the Blue Ridge. As a nation of free men, we 143 00:09:44,919 --> 00:09:47,919 will live forever or die by suicide. So Americans have 144 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:51,200 always understood that we were kind of born free in 145 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,000 a sense, and that our freedom was something that was 146 00:09:55,519 --> 00:09:59,720 for us to preserve or to squander. And I think 147 00:09:59,799 --> 00:10:02,960 that it is becoming clear now here in the second 148 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,320 decade of the twenty first century that we've squandered it, 149 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:11,600 and the broad contours of what American civilization is going 150 00:10:11,639 --> 00:10:16,200 to be moving forward into the post Christian future. The 151 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,360 contours of that are starting to come into view. And 152 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:20,600 part of my motivation for the book was to kind 153 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,200 of trace those contours for people, help them to see it, 154 00:10:24,919 --> 00:10:26,399 and help them to accept it. 155 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: Right, there are two paths that I see, and I 156 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:34,879 think that you point out well in your book. I 157 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:40,960 don't mean to just you know, generalize or you know, 158 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,360 move this into two different paths. You have a lot 159 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,440 of different things going on in this book, but there 160 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,000 are people in this country who have and are in 161 00:10:51,039 --> 00:10:56,159 the process of willingly giving up that notion that you 162 00:10:56,279 --> 00:11:02,799 talk about. The Americans were gifted this idea that men 163 00:11:02,919 --> 00:11:06,159 are born free. I mean, and again to Abraham Lincoln. 164 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:10,360 You know, his his founding principles were always based on 165 00:11:10,799 --> 00:11:15,639 the Declaration of Independence. You know that that notion that 166 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,240 we all have those you know, those those basic rights. 167 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:24,080 But there are others who are being compelled to do so, 168 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:26,919 and you spell this out in the book. I think 169 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:33,200 very well just about how there is coercion, and then 170 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,840 there is no need for coercion because people are willingly 171 00:11:38,039 --> 00:11:41,519 giving up that great God given gift. 172 00:11:41,919 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And Tokville talks about this as well, that 173 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,720 this is one of the dangers of democracy that when 174 00:11:48,759 --> 00:11:53,200 people figure out that they can, you know, exchange their 175 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,799 freedom for goods that they can sort of get from 176 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,879 the government, that they'll they'll give up their freedom, you know, 177 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,879 in exchange for that because because liberty can be hard. 178 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,039 I think that we see that, we're seeing that more 179 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,039 and more. But part of the reason that that is 180 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:14,799 a problem is because we have lost that sense of 181 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,480 what America is supposed to be about, about what self 182 00:12:18,519 --> 00:12:21,360 government and citizenship and being a member of a of 183 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:26,840 a of a republic is supposed to be about. There 184 00:12:26,919 --> 00:12:31,840 was always an understanding in America from the beginning that 185 00:12:32,399 --> 00:12:36,799 the responsibilities of being part of a republic meant that 186 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:42,399 you had to you had to be virtuous in your 187 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,480 own person, in your own family, in your community, in 188 00:12:45,519 --> 00:12:48,440 your town, in your and on and on out from 189 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,360 from the set from the hearthstone of your own family. 190 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,639 Right and the founders understood that when they even when 191 00:12:55,639 --> 00:12:59,759 they said that all men are created with the unalienable 192 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:04,080 right of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. To them, 193 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:09,960 the pursuit of happiness wasn't this libertarian live and let 194 00:13:10,039 --> 00:13:13,600 live notion that everyone kind of like pursues their own truth. 195 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,279 They would have understood that phrase to mean the acquisition 196 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:23,799 of virtue. The pursuit of happiness means becoming virtuous. 197 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: And Enlightenment is tied into that because that whole movement 198 00:13:27,279 --> 00:13:30,639 came out of the Enlightenment age of Founders who were 199 00:13:30,759 --> 00:13:35,399 very tapped into that notion. But that Enlightenment is often 200 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:43,039 confused by, you know, particularly those pushing an agenda from 201 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,240 the left as completely without faith, or that it. 202 00:13:47,159 --> 00:13:49,639 Speaker 2: Was sort of like it had sort of the Enlightenment 203 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:53,840 had sort of obviated the need for Christianity exactly, which 204 00:13:53,879 --> 00:13:56,440 I think is not only is that just wrong, but 205 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:03,879 that was an intentional agenda of certain figures in the 206 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:08,279 Enlightenment who had a really animosity toward Christianity, figures like Voltaire, 207 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,759 who were really open about their hostility toward the Christian 208 00:14:11,799 --> 00:14:14,879 faith and their contempt for it, and they tried to 209 00:14:14,919 --> 00:14:19,679 put forth what essentially are Christian moral principles under the 210 00:14:19,759 --> 00:14:22,639 umbrella of Enlightenment moral principles and saying we can now 211 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:27,639 have sort of christless Christianity. We can have these moral 212 00:14:27,679 --> 00:14:33,240 principles divorced from the theological claims of Christianity. Right, And 213 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,600 Voltaire wasn't the only one. I think that a lot 214 00:14:36,639 --> 00:14:40,080 of that is wrongly attributed to the Founding Fathers if 215 00:14:40,559 --> 00:14:44,240 you look at what the Founding Fathers said about faith, 216 00:14:44,279 --> 00:14:47,279 about the role of religion in public life and even 217 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:51,000 in private life, their notions of virtue we were just 218 00:14:51,039 --> 00:14:54,919 talking about. It's not that there was a uniformity of 219 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,919 thought among the Founders visa the religion, right. There was, 220 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,159 you know, obviously John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, although they 221 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,559 were great friends, had very different views of God and religion. 222 00:15:05,919 --> 00:15:11,320 But there was at least an acknowledgment that Christianity and 223 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:17,960 Christian moral teachings were indispensable to the survival of the republic, 224 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,240 that the people themselves had to be virtuous, they had 225 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:27,120 to be shaped by Christian moral precepts, and without that 226 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:31,600 the republic wouldn't last. Now, you know, I would further argue, 227 00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:34,519 and I do argue in the book, that figures like 228 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:37,879 Voltaire were wrong, Right, they were wrong that you can 229 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:42,080 have christless Christianity, that you can have the culture without 230 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,720 the cult, right. And I think the French Revolution is 231 00:15:46,759 --> 00:15:49,519 a big point in favor of my argument. Right. It's 232 00:15:49,519 --> 00:15:52,000 a very profound difference between the French Revolution and the 233 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,919 American Revolution, so much so that you can properly call 234 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,080 the French Revolution a revolution who was a revolution against Christianity. 235 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,039 The American Revolution wasn't so much a revolution, I think, 236 00:16:03,399 --> 00:16:05,799 you know, calling it that is a bit of a misnomer. 237 00:16:05,879 --> 00:16:10,360 It was it was, in a way a restoration of 238 00:16:10,519 --> 00:16:18,039 what those early Americans understood to be there their due 239 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:23,279 rights as really as Englishmen, right, and why they came 240 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,320 here in the first place. Yes, yes, And so they 241 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,840 were asserting something that they felt had been taken unjustly 242 00:16:29,919 --> 00:16:33,480 from them by the British Parliament and the Crown. So 243 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:38,399 not so much a revolutions as a restoration that required 244 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,759 a political break right, which of course they laid out 245 00:16:41,759 --> 00:16:44,799 in the Declaration. But the key point, and the key 246 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:50,279 takeaway is that you cannot retain these notions of individual dignity, 247 00:16:50,679 --> 00:16:55,240 human rights, equality before the law, freedom of speech, freedom 248 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:59,799 of religion. You cannot jettison Christianity and hope to hold 249 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:06,559 on to these fundamentally Christian principles and precepts, you will 250 00:17:06,799 --> 00:17:10,039 also discard those things. And it's not going to take generations. 251 00:17:10,039 --> 00:17:12,200 It's not going to take centuries. And how do I 252 00:17:12,279 --> 00:17:16,440 know that because we are watching it happen in real time. 253 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,759 Speaker 3: This is Molly Hemingway encouraging you to listen to my 254 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,359 favorite podcast, Issues, et cetera. Every day you get in 255 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:34,480 depth interviews with host Todd Wilkin, asking expert guests substantive, 256 00:17:34,599 --> 00:17:37,960 thought provoking questions on all of the important news and 257 00:17:38,039 --> 00:17:43,880 issues of our day. The expert guests are in culture, law, ethics, philosophy, theology, 258 00:17:44,039 --> 00:17:49,960 and apologetics. Expert guests expansive topics, always extolling christ issues, 259 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:50,640 et cetera. 260 00:17:53,319 --> 00:18:00,279 Speaker 1: Yes, and that's by the same token you cannoteshew those things. 261 00:18:00,319 --> 00:18:03,960 You cannot cast those things off that made this country 262 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,640 what it was, is the success that it was. You 263 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,680 can't do that. You can't have those things and have 264 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:19,559 the cult. You can't do those things and have government control. 265 00:18:19,759 --> 00:18:25,279 You can't do those things. Have Christian ideas at the foundation, 266 00:18:25,559 --> 00:18:32,039 have republican style democracy at the foundation, constitutional democracy. You 267 00:18:32,039 --> 00:18:36,880 can't have those things if you have faith if you 268 00:18:37,079 --> 00:18:43,079 have the quest for virtue or even so, as you 269 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:47,119 note in your book, the idea of virtue at all, 270 00:18:47,839 --> 00:18:52,000 that that can there is no set right, there is 271 00:18:52,039 --> 00:18:56,680 no set wrong, there is no set virtue. 272 00:18:57,759 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 273 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: Right, So this gets to this, it's to to. 274 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,559 Speaker 2: How I try to define paganism, because pagan and paganism 275 00:19:05,599 --> 00:19:07,960 is kind of an amorphous term. It's been used different 276 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,400 ways throughout throughout history. It was, uh, you know, originally 277 00:19:12,519 --> 00:19:15,200 just use to refer to people who are outside the 278 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:19,559 boundaries of the Roman Empire, the Rustic or the Ristisi, 279 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,160 the people who lived in in in the countryside. It 280 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:29,000 has been used as a pejorative obviously, uh, over the 281 00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:33,759 over the centuries. I mean it to refer to those 282 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:41,200 who reject transcendent a transcendent God, who reject objective morality, 283 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:49,440 who reject really even the sense of objective reality, and 284 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,480 in favor of the pagan ethos, which is a kind 285 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:58,640 of embracing of the contingency of the here and now 286 00:19:58,799 --> 00:20:02,839 and the ever change shifting world that we live in, 287 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,880 which which manifests itself on a societal level by an 288 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:12,559 embrace of relativism, an embrace of moral subjectivity. Uh. And 289 00:20:12,759 --> 00:20:18,279 and an embrace of the kind of uh self creation 290 00:20:18,519 --> 00:20:22,039 that we see now narcissism. Uh, well, narcissism is part 291 00:20:22,039 --> 00:20:24,759 of it, right, Uh even you know, we get into 292 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,119 get into this in the book. You know, the transgender 293 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,519 and transhuman ideology that we see bubbling up is a 294 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:36,319 kind of expression of neo paganism. That is, the pagan 295 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,559 ethos that is that is almost an inversion of the 296 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:45,400 Christian ethos. It rejects a transcendent God, it rejects objective 297 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:50,240 moral truth, it rejects objective reality, uh and embraces a 298 00:20:50,319 --> 00:20:54,160 radical kind of subjectivity. And you know, in a radically 299 00:20:54,200 --> 00:21:00,599 subjective world, the basis for uh political power or isn't 300 00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:05,960 consent of the governed. It's force, it's coercion. It might 301 00:21:06,039 --> 00:21:09,799 makes right. And this has always been the basis of 302 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:15,079 pagan societies, which is why the most advanced pagan societies, 303 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,160 and this is true across vast expanses of time and 304 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,599 geography and cultures. The more advanced the pagan society, the 305 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,720 more it was organized as a slave empire that had 306 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:29,759 a caste system where most of the people were slaves 307 00:21:30,319 --> 00:21:33,440 and a fewer number of people were in the ruling class. 308 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:38,519 And might really did make right, and that is that 309 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,720 is going to become I argue that is going to 310 00:21:41,759 --> 00:21:45,960 become a feature of American life in a post Christian age. 311 00:21:46,319 --> 00:21:47,759 And toward the end of the book, I try to 312 00:21:47,799 --> 00:21:49,480 tease out some of the ways that we see a 313 00:21:49,559 --> 00:21:52,279 kind of what I call a pagan state emerging, and 314 00:21:52,319 --> 00:21:57,960 that is an administrative bureaucracy, a deep state that has 315 00:21:58,079 --> 00:22:02,400 absolutely no use for the Constitution and the Christian moral 316 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,559 precepts that undergird the Constitution. 317 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 1: Well, I hope that doesn't happen. Boy, I hate to 318 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:09,839 see that. 319 00:22:09,079 --> 00:22:12,559 Speaker 2: I mean, just look at the look at the way 320 00:22:13,559 --> 00:22:18,000 our societal elites and our governing class treat something like 321 00:22:18,039 --> 00:22:21,079 the First Amendment. They think, I mean, we have right 322 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:26,799 now in Governor Tim Waltz, a Major Party vice presidential candidate, 323 00:22:27,799 --> 00:22:30,680 on the record saying that the First Amendment affords no 324 00:22:30,799 --> 00:22:35,039 protection against misinformation or hate speech. Well, of course, the 325 00:22:35,039 --> 00:22:39,000 First Amendment says nothing about misinformation or hate speech. There 326 00:22:39,039 --> 00:22:42,799 is no such thing, constitutionally speaking as hate speech. Clearly, 327 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,480 what Tim Waltz means is that he would like to 328 00:22:46,559 --> 00:22:50,160 use the power of the government to prevent you from 329 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,079 saying things that he and his friends don't like or 330 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:57,160 disagree with. Now, that is might makes right. That is 331 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,200 the pagan ethos at work. That is rule by force. 332 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,880 And they're not even really trying to disguise it that 333 00:23:06,039 --> 00:23:08,400 much anymore. They're just coming out and saying and saying, 334 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,359 the First Amendment should not protect your right to say 335 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,279 things that we in the government think is wrong. 336 00:23:16,599 --> 00:23:18,759 Speaker 1: Oh, you're absolutely right. And not only that, I mean 337 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,519 you could expect that, I guess from a politician. You 338 00:23:22,559 --> 00:23:25,960 could expect that from someone who wants to hold power. 339 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:32,400 But we're seeing this from the supposed defenders of the 340 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,920 First Amendment, the people who make their living off the 341 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:42,279 First Amendent. The Washington Post, most recently telling the brain 342 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,079 trust of the Biden administration, can't you stop Elon Musk 343 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,519 and Donald Trump from talking to each other? Next? 344 00:23:48,559 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 4: Right? 345 00:23:48,759 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 2: Yeah? Isn't there anything the White House can do to 346 00:23:51,799 --> 00:23:57,440 intervene in a conversation between Elon Musk and Donald Trump 347 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,960 on a platform that Elon Musk owns. 348 00:24:00,759 --> 00:24:02,039 Speaker 1: So it's it's crazy. 349 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 2: You know, this was a Washington Post reporter that just 350 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,680 just recently said this in a White House briefing with 351 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,440 no shame, no shame, no apparent recognition that what he 352 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:16,319 was calling for, he was asking the government to suppress 353 00:24:16,799 --> 00:24:22,279 the First Amendment rights of his own countrymen, and doing 354 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,640 it kind of without blinking an eye, you know. So 355 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,680 we've we're we're kind of a lot further along, I 356 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:34,279 think in this process than people realize, and it's important 357 00:24:34,319 --> 00:24:38,799 to understand what these people will do as they gain power, 358 00:24:38,799 --> 00:24:43,279 and as we move further into really a post Christian 359 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,559 age in America, it's going to become harder and harder 360 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:51,000 really to even make the argument that the First Amendment 361 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,599 is legitimate right. More and more you see this, and 362 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,559 this isn't you know. This has been going on for 363 00:24:57,599 --> 00:25:02,119 a while a decade ago. In twenty fourteen, a lot 364 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,599 of people maybe have forgotten this. But during Obama's second term, 365 00:25:05,759 --> 00:25:10,799 every single Democratic senator voted to amend the First Amendment 366 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,720 under the guise of campaign finance reform, and essentially what 367 00:25:15,759 --> 00:25:18,440 they were proposing was to gut the First Amendment and 368 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,599 saying in the lead up to an election, you don't 369 00:25:20,599 --> 00:25:22,880 have a First Amendment right to say whatever you want. 370 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:28,000 And if more than one person pools their resources together 371 00:25:29,759 --> 00:25:32,400 to I don't know, make a documentary or make an 372 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,920 ad or make a video for the Internet to express 373 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,279 their political views. You could run a foul federal campaign 374 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,680 finance law and find yourself in a lot of trouble. 375 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,279 They sold it to one another anyway, and argued for 376 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,240 it on the floor of the Senate as an amendment 377 00:25:49,279 --> 00:25:51,920 to the First Amendment. The First Amendment needs some tweaking. 378 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,720 What they were doing there was admitting that they have 379 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,480 no use for the First Amendment and they would like 380 00:25:58,519 --> 00:26:01,240 to get rid of it completely, and they will keep 381 00:26:01,279 --> 00:26:05,359 trying to do that, and I think that they will succeed. 382 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,000 And part of the reason going back to sort of 383 00:26:08,039 --> 00:26:10,640 these larger, kind of fifty thousand foot view of things, 384 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,799 if you reject the claims of Christianity, you have to 385 00:26:14,839 --> 00:26:19,759 reject the First Amendment too. The truths that are self evident, 386 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,519 right that all men are created equal, are only self 387 00:26:23,559 --> 00:26:26,759 evident to a moral imagination that's been formed by the 388 00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:30,440 Christian faith and that accepts the claims of the Christian religion. 389 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,880 It's not self evident at all. If you reject those. 390 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 4: Claims, you have more wealth than your neighbor, and they 391 00:26:39,039 --> 00:26:41,079 don't have a clue. The Watched Out on Wall Street 392 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,160 podcast with Chris Markowski every day. Chris helps unpack the 393 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,880 connection between politics and the economy and how it affects 394 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,000 your wallet. Don't get into this vicious cycle of trying 395 00:26:50,039 --> 00:26:52,960 to compete with people on social media or people you 396 00:26:53,039 --> 00:26:56,000 live near with material items. If you're putting money away, 397 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,160 you can take advantage of those opportunities throughout your life. 398 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,400 Whether it's happening in or down on Wall Street, it's 399 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:02,440 affecting you financially. 400 00:27:02,519 --> 00:27:03,039 Speaker 2: Be informed. 401 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 4: Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with christ 402 00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:08,200 Markowski on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. 403 00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: Exactly. Yes, and I'm reminded too. It was about that 404 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:18,119 same time that you mentioned the amendment to the Amendment, 405 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,599 which you know is if you don't laugh, you cry. 406 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,759 That's why I you know, I find it hilarious. Thankfully 407 00:27:25,759 --> 00:27:27,400 it didn't go anywhere, but here we are, and we're 408 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:28,759 going to get into that in just a moment. The 409 00:27:28,799 --> 00:27:33,359 media's role, the particularly the corporate media, the accomplice medias 410 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,200 I like to call them, but you know, I was 411 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,279 thinking at that same time, you had Dick Durbin, Senator 412 00:27:39,279 --> 00:27:44,079 from Illinois, pushing a litmus test for who could use 413 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,440 the First Amendment and who couldn't in the world of reporting, 414 00:27:48,079 --> 00:27:50,160 and all right. 415 00:27:50,319 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 2: Who was a citizen journalist and who is a credential 416 00:27:52,759 --> 00:27:55,799 journalist as though the Constitution and the Bill of Rights 417 00:27:55,799 --> 00:27:57,799 makes a distinction, which it doesn't. 418 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:00,599 Speaker 1: And that was gaining currency, you know, And that's the 419 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,000 argument that you're talking about. I want to delve into 420 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,160 that in just a bit here, but we are talking 421 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:09,640 with Federalist Senior Editor John Daniel Davidson, author of clearly 422 00:28:09,759 --> 00:28:13,559 an alarming and profound new book, Pagan America, The Decline 423 00:28:13,599 --> 00:28:17,559 of Christianity and the Dark Age to Come. The Dark 424 00:28:17,599 --> 00:28:23,039 Age to Come and the decline of our republic as 425 00:28:23,079 --> 00:28:26,200 we know it as it was founded, is really being 426 00:28:26,279 --> 00:28:33,920 accelerated by a complicit media that is owned by a 427 00:28:34,079 --> 00:28:42,000 conglomerate less and less people controlling messages and making sure 428 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,160 that the message they want out there is out there, 429 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,519 and suppressing the message they don't want out there. How 430 00:28:48,599 --> 00:28:54,039 much has and will the media at large play in 431 00:28:53,799 --> 00:28:55,839 this battle? Well, clearly, we. 432 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 2: Were just talking about this Washington Post reporter who was 433 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:03,160 calling for censorship of Trump and Musk. The media, the 434 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,079 corporate media or establishment media. We don't like to use 435 00:29:07,119 --> 00:29:09,759 the phrase mainstream media. At the federalists because they are 436 00:29:09,799 --> 00:29:14,119 far outside the mainstream of American life. But but the 437 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:19,119 the corporate media is, you know, has ironically sort of 438 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,440 turned against the First Amendment. And you can see this 439 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,599 more and more in the way that they they throw 440 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:29,000 around terms like misinformation or disinformation. These are Soviet terms, malinformation, 441 00:29:29,279 --> 00:29:33,240 these are these are these are Soviet terms that originally 442 00:29:33,319 --> 00:29:39,920 were meant to refer to Soviet propaganda to combat, you know, 443 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,119 the Western propaganda basically during the Cold. 444 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: War, the Cold War. 445 00:29:43,759 --> 00:29:44,079 Speaker 4: Terms. 446 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,839 Speaker 2: Now our media just used them as as though they're legitimate. 447 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,640 They're legitimate terms to talk about things that shouldn't be 448 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,839 allowed in the public square or on the digital square, 449 00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,839 and and more specifically, things that the government should suppress 450 00:30:01,279 --> 00:30:04,480 by force. So you have in the corporate media, the 451 00:30:04,559 --> 00:30:11,119 establishment media, a meeting of the minds with not only 452 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,839 the people that own these properties, right, which, as you note, 453 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,319 is a small number of very wealthy individuals, you know, 454 00:30:18,759 --> 00:30:23,359 who control these media outlets. A lot of the major 455 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,720 media figures themselves have also bought into this this and 456 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:31,000 there's a there's a kind of collusion or symbiotic relationship 457 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:36,640 with elements in the administrative state, in the administrative bureaucracy 458 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,759 of the federal government and the media and big tech 459 00:30:40,079 --> 00:30:42,839 all kind of and plus the NGO world all kind 460 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,640 of working together on this on the basis of a 461 00:30:45,759 --> 00:30:50,920 shared assumption about free speech, namely that free speech is 462 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,119 far too free and the First Amendment is outdated and 463 00:30:55,559 --> 00:31:00,920 needs to be very severely curtailed, and specific outlets like 464 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,119 the Federalists need to be silenced. And if you say 465 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:11,319 things that contradict the regime approved neo pagan ideology, like 466 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,160 for example, men or men and women are women. You know, 467 00:31:15,519 --> 00:31:20,359 the transgender individuals are mentally ill and they need help. 468 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,400 They don't need to be affirmed in their delusion that 469 00:31:22,559 --> 00:31:24,480 they that a man can become a woman or a 470 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,640 woman can become a man. If you say anything like that, 471 00:31:27,119 --> 00:31:29,720 If you say that abortion should be illegal because it's 472 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,119 the taking of an innicent human life. If you question 473 00:31:33,599 --> 00:31:37,440 same sex marriage, if you even question things that are 474 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,759 maybe you know, foreign policy related, like our support for Ukraine, 475 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,400 all of these, If you question the integrity of our 476 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:49,079 elections or outcomes of elections, a whole laundry list of 477 00:31:49,119 --> 00:31:52,640 things that you can't that these people, very powerful people 478 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,920 and institutions don't think that Americans should be allowed to 479 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:01,160 say publicly they and they use these old Soviet terms 480 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,240 to give a veneer of legitimacy. They rely on these 481 00:32:05,559 --> 00:32:09,200 NGOs housed at academic institutions to give a veneer of 482 00:32:09,319 --> 00:32:15,440 academic legitimacy to what is really just plain old coercion, 483 00:32:15,759 --> 00:32:20,720 plain old speech suppression. Really, when it comes down to 484 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,359 is suppression of speech at the barrel of gun, you know, 485 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,799 because they're asking the government to intervene and enforced speech. 486 00:32:29,799 --> 00:32:31,079 And if you want to know what it looks like 487 00:32:31,759 --> 00:32:34,079 in practice, all we have to do is look over 488 00:32:34,119 --> 00:32:37,720 the pond to Great Britain, where videos are beginning to 489 00:32:37,759 --> 00:32:42,440 surface of armed police coming to people's houses and arresting 490 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,279 them for making posts on Facebook, for saying things that 491 00:32:46,279 --> 00:32:49,400 the government disapproves of on Facebook. One man just got 492 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,400 twenty months in prison for a Facebook post. So it's 493 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,359 not like a theoretical thing. 494 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,119 Speaker 1: It's not a distract say, it definitely is not. You 495 00:32:58,119 --> 00:33:00,240 don't have to look across the bout. You're right, those 496 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,519 are very clear and compelling examples of the abuses of 497 00:33:04,559 --> 00:33:06,960 governments happened here too. Well. I mean, just take a 498 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:11,400 look at the vast majority of people who assembled to 499 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:16,599 redress the government on January sixth of twenty twenty one. 500 00:33:17,079 --> 00:33:19,799 I mean, it is happening, It is going on now, 501 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:26,000 and I guess that ultimately is what you're really driving 502 00:33:26,039 --> 00:33:29,359 home in this book is that there are a lot 503 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:36,880 of accomplices to destroying what we have known in this country, 504 00:33:37,039 --> 00:33:45,079 and there seems to be absolutely no relenting on that 505 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,920 front from the people who want to do that, who 506 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,720 have the power to do that, the resources to do that. 507 00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:55,799 But I'd like to close on a little bit more positives. 508 00:33:55,799 --> 00:33:58,000 What do we do about it? What do we do 509 00:33:58,079 --> 00:34:00,319 about it? And I ask you this in context of 510 00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:06,400 when I was covering the parade of contenders and pretenders 511 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,320 in the Republican Party for the presidential nomination chase back 512 00:34:10,679 --> 00:34:14,880 in twenty three, the long Process, the long slog in Iowa. 513 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,920 Heard a lot from a guy who gained a great 514 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,320 deal of attention by the name of the Vake Ramaswami, 515 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:24,280 and one of his dominant messages during the campaign was 516 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:29,719 Americans are at this point where they are filling this 517 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:36,519 vacancy of faith in what we're talking about Christian basic 518 00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:39,679 Judeo Christian values. They're filling it with all kinds of 519 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,960 garbage and crap and nonsense, and that is leading to 520 00:34:43,039 --> 00:34:47,880 exactly what you're writing about. He believes that there is 521 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:53,559 a hunger to return to those foundational values. Did you 522 00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:56,360 Are you seeing that in your reporting on this issue. 523 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:02,639 Speaker 2: There certainly is a growing recognition that a life without God, 524 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:08,440 without faith, without religion is empty and unsatisfying. And I 525 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,840 think that you are seeing that in different enclaves around 526 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,119 the country. There's a kind of awakening that's going on. 527 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:21,239 And it's Catholic, it's Protestant, it's growing numbers of people 528 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:26,719 joining the Orthodox Church as well. I think it's clear, 529 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:30,480 but that movement, that shift is also part of the 530 00:35:30,519 --> 00:35:34,079 shift that's driving people into new forms of paganism as well. 531 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:40,119 The future of America is not this secular, atheist scientific materialists, 532 00:35:40,559 --> 00:35:44,559 you know, liberal utopia. That that is not what our 533 00:35:44,599 --> 00:35:47,840 future holds. Our future is a future of religious faith. 534 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,079 And the question is what kind of religious faith is it? 535 00:35:50,119 --> 00:35:53,119 Because because what kind of religious faith we embrace as 536 00:35:53,119 --> 00:35:56,440 a country will determine our form of government and our 537 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:01,440 society in the generations to come. And so I am 538 00:36:01,599 --> 00:36:07,599 encouraged and I have great hope. 539 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: In seeing the renewed. 540 00:36:08,519 --> 00:36:13,559 Speaker 2: Interest in Christianity, and even in more traditional forms of Christianity, 541 00:36:13,599 --> 00:36:17,480 which I believe are more durable over time. And I 542 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,960 think that the future of our republic, such as it is, 543 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,440 and any hope for a restoration of the American Republic, 544 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,039 is going to come from these faith communities, these Christians, 545 00:36:28,079 --> 00:36:32,920 specifically Christian communities. They will be sort of the places 546 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,639 where the flame is preserved through the dark night of 547 00:36:36,679 --> 00:36:41,960 America's soul. And that will be, you know, those faith 548 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,920 communities will the faith that is practiced there is going 549 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,880 to be not a nominal faith, not a faith of 550 00:36:50,039 --> 00:36:54,400 mass religion or mass culture, not the kind of lukewarm 551 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,760 faith that came to typify American Christianity in the last century, 552 00:36:59,039 --> 00:37:01,760 where you sort of went to church on Christmas in 553 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,719 Easter and there was a certain kind of social respectability 554 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:05,960 that came along with being. 555 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:06,559 Speaker 1: A church goer. 556 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,639 Speaker 2: There's no there's not going to be any social respectability 557 00:37:09,679 --> 00:37:12,039 that comes with being a Christian anymore. There already isn't. 558 00:37:12,119 --> 00:37:15,960 In fact, it's a stigma for Vice President Kamala Harris. 559 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,320 She already came out against Catholics who remembers the Knights 560 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,960 of Columbus when she was a US Senator saying that 561 00:37:22,079 --> 00:37:24,559 being a Knight of Columbus, of which I am one, 562 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,519 disqualifies a person for public office. Bernie Sanders has said 563 00:37:28,559 --> 00:37:31,480 the same thing. The American left thinks being a faithful, 564 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:36,679 believing Christian disqualifies you for offices of public trust. So 565 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:41,280 the point is the Christianity of the future in America 566 00:37:41,679 --> 00:37:46,400 is going to be a more faithful Christianity is that 567 00:37:46,679 --> 00:37:50,960 doesn't confer any worldly benefits, and so it may be 568 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,039 a smaller flock, but it will be a more potent faith. 569 00:37:56,519 --> 00:37:59,960 And it is from those communities, and from that faith 570 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,599 will emerge an American Christianity that will break the Pagan 571 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,119 stranglehold over this country. Because the only thing, and I 572 00:38:08,119 --> 00:38:10,199 talk about this in the book, the only thing that 573 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:15,360 ever broke the stranglehold of Pagan Empire over pagan peoples 574 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,360 was its encounter with Christianity. And it will be a 575 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,800 future encounter with a renewed Christianity that will break the 576 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,360 hold of Pagan America. That's my hope in prayer. 577 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting, because really it's it is foundational, isn't it. 578 00:38:29,159 --> 00:38:33,119 I mean, not just foundational to this republic, foundational to 579 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,559 the Christian faith. Yes, that's what you had. You had 580 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,360 small communities that grew and grew and grew. If you know, 581 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,519 if and they paid the price they paid, that's terrible. 582 00:38:44,599 --> 00:38:46,840 Speaker 2: And that's the other thing that people need to wrap 583 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,599 their heads around and just and relax into it and 584 00:38:50,039 --> 00:38:54,719 take heart. Persecution will come to you. Our Lord promised it, 585 00:38:55,079 --> 00:38:58,599 so persecution will come. Accept it, and then and then 586 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,920 accept that acution is necessary. The Church has always been persecuted. 587 00:39:03,119 --> 00:39:06,599 The Church in America has not been persecuted like it's 588 00:39:06,599 --> 00:39:10,360 going to be. But you know, we're not Americans first. 589 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,000 We're Christians first. And America is something that we may 590 00:39:15,079 --> 00:39:18,000 have again, but will it will be in America that's 591 00:39:18,519 --> 00:39:22,480 based upon the Christian faith. And so again I have 592 00:39:22,599 --> 00:39:25,280 great hope in that it's not a council of despair. 593 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,880 It's a council of hope and of fortitude and courage 594 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:30,280 for the fight to come. 595 00:39:30,559 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: One thing we do know as students of history, for 596 00:39:34,559 --> 00:39:37,159 those who have turned their back on God, it has 597 00:39:37,199 --> 00:39:43,599 not worked out well. And history will restore what we 598 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,039 have to come based on what we have experienced, will 599 00:39:47,039 --> 00:39:53,320 come again. So fascinating exploration, very necessary exploration of where 600 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,960 we're at in America and where it suggests we're going. 601 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,880 Thanks to my guest today, Federals Senior editor John Daniel Davidson, 602 00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,719 author of the new book Pagan America, The Decline of 603 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,679 Christianity and the Dark Age to Come. You've been listening 604 00:40:08,679 --> 00:40:11,559 to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Matt Kittle, 605 00:40:11,639 --> 00:40:15,360 senior correspondent at the Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. 606 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:35,840 Until then, stay lovers of freedom and anxious for the Fray.